What Is The Point Of Putting The Body Of Christ Into The Time Of Jacob’s Trouble?

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Daniel 9:24 (KJV)
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According to God’s word, the Jewish Nation of Israel will go through their time to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Have you ever wondered why God calls it the time of JACOB’S trouble?

“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” 1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV)

Friendly-Fire Warning: I plan on utilizing Proverbs 26:5 KJV (look it up) throughout this article. If you have thin skin or are not willing to stand and defend truth, I’d advised you to not read any further. You’ve been forewarned.

I always find it hilarious dealing with post-tribbers. The ones I deal with can NEVER Biblically answer this question: What is the point of forcing the body of Christ to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble?? What is the purpose?? God is not the author of confusion and God specifically gives us the reason why the Jewish Nation of Israel will go through it:

“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.” Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

The angel, talking to the Jewish Daniel, said that the 70 weeks are determined upon THY people, the Jews. So according to God’s word, the Jewish Nation of Israel will go through their time to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Have you ever wondered why God calls it the time of JACOB’S trouble? (come now let us REASON together)

HOW IN THE WORLD DOES THIS APPLY TO THE BODY OF CHRIST??

  • To finish the transgression? – Christ said that it’s ALREADY FINISHED! (John 19:30 KJV)
  • To make an end of sins? – Christ was ALREADY made sin FOR US! (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV)
  • To make reconciliation for iniquity? – We’ve ALREADY been reconciled! (2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV)
  • To bring in everlasting righteousness? – We ALREADY possess God’s righteousness! (Romans 3:21-22 KJV
  • To seal up the vision and prophecy? – We’re SEALED! (Ephesians 4:30 KJV)
  • To anoint the most Holy? – We’ve ALREADY been anointed and we’re bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh! Also, we are in Heaven worshipping the Lord BEFORE the anti-christ even hits the scene! (1 John 2:27/ Revelation 5:9-10 KJV)

So once again, what is the purpose of forcing the body of Christ in the Great Tribulation? Let’s start by addressing each kind of post-tribber and their heretical stances. When you narrow it down, there are only TWO kinds of post-tribbers and both kinds have significant delays in the common sense department.

Post-Tribber #1– The eternally secure Post-Tribber:

This is the post-tribber that believes in eternal security and applies it throughout the Great Tribulation. I sarcastically mock this kind of post-tribber by pinpointing the fact they’re practically going to “fake their way” through the Tribulation. I mean seriously, if you’re an eternally secure post-tribber, what is the point of going through the Great Tribulation? Especially when you believe that you can worship the beast, get his name, mark, and number and STILL BE ETERNALLY SECURE AND GO TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE!  Talk about diplomatic immunity!

The Bible is quite clear when it says that people who receive the Mark will not enter into Heaven:

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Revelation 20:4 (KJV)

Now, all eternally secure Post-Tribbers attempt to avoid acknowledging this blasphemous belief by saying that “No REAL Christian would worship the beast, etc.” However they can’t provide chapter and verse in the Holy Bible that specifically states that “REAL” Christians in the body of Christ are somehow “constrained” from worshipping the beast, getting his name, number, or mark. But this issue is no surprise since all Post-Tribbers cannot provide chapter and verse for the body of Christ being present in the Great Tribulation to begin with. The eternally secure Post-tribber is going to “endure to the end” when there’s nothing for them to endure! Maybe just for fun, they can see if they can endure until the end of their physical lives, but the Apostle Paul had the exact opposite attitude regarding playing earthly games of survival.

“For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:” Philippians 1:23 (KJV)

So once again, what is the point of forcing the body of Christ in the Great Tribulation?? I’ve heard several pathetic answers for the eternally secure Post-Tribbers in my past:

They say “To earn a Crown of Life!” I  then tell them that the Great Tribulation is not the only time of Crown of Life is available and that this crown can also be earned by enduring temptation (James 1:12 KJV). The eternally secure Post-Tribber is completely deluded in their beliefs.

Post-Tribber #2 – The masochist Post-Tribber:

I’ll admit it; this last group of post-tribbers are the most annoying to deal with. They are by far the most blood thirsty, fear mongering, guilty conscience having, vain threatening, anti-biblical bunch out. The masochist post-tribber believes that the body of Christ is somehow mandated to go through vigorous forms of torture or “suffering” in the Great Tribulation in order to “prove” their love for Jesus, “prove” they’re truly Christian, or “prove” that they’re truly saved. The hilarious (or most annoying) part about this kind of post-tribber is that although they don’t believe in eternal security, they won’t necessarily speak against it either. This is where the empty/vain threats come in. You can easily spot the masochist post-tribber by their vain threats against Pre-Trib Bible Believers. They make vain threats such as “when the pretribulation rapture does not happen, you better not deny our Lord!” I then ask them “What if I do? Did Jesus not pay for ALL my sins?” They never reply back. Another empty threat they’ll say to a Pre-Tribber is “When the Lord doesn’t come back to get you, I fear you will not be ready”. I then ask them “Ready for what? Ready to risk losing my salvation? Going to Hell? Ready for what exactly?” No Answer. The one question masochist post-tribbers can NEVER Biblically answer is why God would only make PART of the body of Christ go through the Great Tribulation?? What about the millions of Christians in the body of Christ that died peacefully in a hospital bed like my father? Are you saying that my father and the other millions of Christians that died peacefully and full of years weren’t REAL Christians because they never shed blood or were tortured for the cause of Christ?!? Is only PART of the body of Christ going through the Tribulation to make an atonement for ALL of the members that didn’t shed blood or something?? Sounds as foolish as  Mormons baptizing for the dead.

As far as a masochist post-tribber is concerned, ANYBODY that rejects their heretical post-trib doctrine does so because they are “too scared to suffer for Christ”, which again makes absolutely no sense. The Apostle Paul was the one who revealed the pre-time of Jacob’s trouble catching away of the body of Christ and he suffered more than ANY Christian that’s ever lived! It’s also funny that a masochist post-tribber feels like their time to suffer only occurs in the Great Tribulation. If a masochist post-tribber TRULY believed in physically suffering for Christ, they’d go be a Christian in Iran, Egypt, or Iraq today, unless they’re too scared to “suffer for Christ” of course!

To be honest, the masochist post-tribbers thirst to be tortured for “the cause of Christ” reminds me of Baals servants on Mount Carmel:

“And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out” 1 Kings 18:27-28 (KJV)

Why a masochist post-tribber feels like their blood must be shed in order for God to deliver them I have no Idea. Sounds like another spirit to me (1 John 4 KJV).

The post-trib doctrine for the body of Christ is completely foolish and idiotic. What’s worse is that this heretical doctrine is a gateway to many other damnable heresies. Believe God’s words! The body of Christ will be CAUGHT AWAY BEFORE the time of Jacob’s Trouble! (1 Thess 4:16 KJV). If you are a post-tribber reading this, I urge you to REPENT of your heretical views!

Kent Hovind has already made you look foolish enough!

 

Jimmy Randolph is a veteran, husband, father, Bible believer and a devoted student of the word of God. He was called to preach on the street in 2012, and maintains a strong, personal tract witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • James Staten

      Bro. Jimmy, Excellent…Looking for our Blessed Hope!!!!!

      • Jimmy

        Thanks brother, praise the Lord!

      • ballistic

        you are a young man.. that is evident in your writing. you speak with what seems like disdain towards large segments of Christs church. Some of the brightest minds in church history differ politely on these same points, do you tower over them intellectually? Exactly. But your opinions are appreciated.

        • Jimmy

          The KJV Bible is the standard; NOT worldly education.

          God reveals his word to babes, not to the “wise” (Matthew 11:25 KJV)

          • Ron

            AMEN TO THAT Jimmy!

            and another point is

            1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

            1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

            1 Corinthians 3:18-20 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

            God Bless You Jimmy!

          • Teresa blosser

            No, the original manuscripts are The Word of God. The KJV only is but a copy of a copy of a copy…

            • Ron

              Teresa Whether The KJV Bible is a copy or not Teresa it is still The Unadulterated Word Of God.

              God Who Created The Universe and ALL that is in it can make sure with the Greatest of Ease that Mankind has His

              Word from Him to them and anyone who thinks otherwise is saying God can’t do everything.

        • Guest

          Typical. You don’t like what a certain Christian said, even though it makes sense with their points backed up, so you accuse them of being unloving, snobbish, and infantile because they weren’t being “polite.”

          Sometimes the truth has to be blunt and not ear-tickling, lovey-dovey syrup.

          Was Jesus being unloving when He called Peter “satan?” Was that being polite? Seems sort of unnecessarily harsh if you’d be honest with yourself. But if you understood the context of the situation, you’d understand Christ’s response.

          There’s nothing unloving about being a little sarcastic. This article is intended to warn people about the errors of post-tribulationism. Last time I checked, warning people was usually done out of love and concern.

      • Jim Black

        Which one brother? BEFORE the tribulation (Titus 2:13), or AFTER it (matt. 24:30)?

        • James Staten

          I believe the Bible teaches Our Blessed Hope comes for the Body of Christ Before the Tribulation.

    • Dan

      Sorry, but the rapture theory was made up… If it is true, then why does Jesus tell the disciples that when he returns (only one returned mentioned) that he will remove the sinners 1st??? (Matthew 24)

      • There IS only one return of Jesus Christ, and it’s not the Rapture. Matthew 24 was not written to the Church, and here’s why. http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/our-top-5-reasons-why-matthew-24-cannot-be-talking-about-the-rapture-of-the-church/

        • terri

          Christ meets with raptured church in the air and returns and touches mount of olives at end of armagedddon

          • Amen, and here is where we return with Jesus: “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:14 (KJV)

            • TWR

              Seriously? Christ comes at the seventh trump, in which we are all changed. How could we possibly be the armies which were already in heaven? Men can go their whole life with no true purpose. God doesn’t do anything without purpose. The purpose of tribulation is to unite the body. There is too much racial, ethnic and religious division today. This is what Paul talked about when he said the head can’t say to the hand I don’t need you. I’m paraphrasing, but close enough. There won’t be a white, black and Latino section in heaven. We will have to work that out here. No member of the body is inherently bad. No member is more important than the other. That is not the view of Christianity today. This is common sense. The white leg can’t look at the black or brown hand and say you can’t stand without me. The black eye can’t look at the white ear and say you can’t see without me. Christians got issues. If you know God, they will be worked out prior to leaving here. Purpose. There is no rapture.

            • TWR

              Do you know what a body is? Do you punch yourself occasionally? Do you walk around saying this leg is better than the other one? God is not gathering a bunch of black lives matters Christians talking about they don’t like the white man. He is not gathering white Christians saying dark skin is inferior. These are prevalent attitudes. If you think God is playing that game, you are confused and you totally missed Paul’s message about the body.

      • Elaine Coker

        Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (This is the “Rapture” of the TRUE Church).

        Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all “the holy ones” with Him Zechariah 14:4 (This is the “Second Coming”)
        (The Holy Ones is the “Raptured” true church.

        This is two (2) different occurrences, and is very plain that a child can understand it.
        The Church will not be here during the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. You really need to read the book of Daniel. It explains about the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. GOD designated 490 years of dealings with Israel because of their disobedience. When JESUS was killed, those 490 years were cutoff at 483, which leaves 7 more years of judgment on the Jewish people, which is “the time of Jacob’s trouble). During that time, the Jews will go back to doing “blood” sacrifices.

        This Article is correct and is presented better than I have ever seen before.

        • TWR

          Those that are alive and remain after the tribulation will be caught up. God is collecting his elect and the gentiles who will be saved. The only thing anyone is being saved from is God’s wrath, which apparently will be much worse than tribulation. Daniel 12:1

          The Jewish people are not the descendants of Jacob (Israel). Genesis 9:27, Luke 21:24, Revelation 3:9, Ezekiel 11:17-18. There is nowhere in the bible that says Israelites will do blood sacrifices.

        • tiptopsaidhe

          Daniel 9 says that Messiah is cut off in the midst of the 70th week, which would be year 486.5.

          • Trober

            I don’t ascribe to everything wake-up.org publishes, but here’s a very decent study that holds water biblically and historically: https://www.wake-up.org/newsletter-archive/day-star-newsletter/the-70-weeks-of-daniel-9-may-96a.html

            The truth is there were four decrees used by various folks in the 70-week countdown. And, rightly so, anything arguing for a gap between the 69th week and 70th week should be tossed out altogether; it is contrary to the very point of the prophecy in the first place: timing and chronology.

            • Trober

              …of the four decrees, only one is in a jubilee year. Read the article (and book on it) about why Daniel would’ve understood the breaking of the 70 weeks into two parts. And, for those of us unacquainted with Jewish time-keeping of the day, we’d know to use the jubilee year too IF we heed Dan 7:25’s warning to NOT change the set times.

            • twr

              The 70 weeks have been fulfilled as has 95% of bible prophecy. If you read the bible correctly you will see there is no rapture and second coming, as is being taught here.

              Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
              9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

              Christians have a tendency to read scripture from the perspective of the reader and not the writer. If Jesus told the audience before him some would not taste death before the kingdom of God came with power, he wasn’t talking to Christians 2,000 years later. Either he was a lunatic with delusions of grandeur or the kingdom has come. The dead in Christ have already risen.

              Matthew 27:53King James Version (KJV)
              53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

              When people stop pushing this false rapture doctrine, the church can finally wake up.

        • Teresa blosser

          Great comment!

      • Oliver

        Everyone can do research on this matter. Rapture is man made word thrown into the text. Back sometime around 1820, a fever induced dream by a 15 year old girl made the rapture theory popular with help from John Darby and the footnotes of the Scofield Reference Bible. Good post Dan. I bet this post will quickly be taken down.

    • Guest

      Prepare thyself for the coming firestorm!

      “We literally take Christ at His word!” The post-tribbers will shout! “It’s plain as day!”

      What’s plain as day is that Post-Tribbers may be misconstruing His words even when they think they aren’t. What they think it literally means may not be what Christ literally meant.

      And they’ve never provided a literal, plain-as-day explanation for where the believing mortals who survive the Tribulation and enter into the Millenial Kingdom come from– at least without spiritualizing Scripture. If at the end of the Tribulation ALL believers ascend to heaven and ALL unbelievers are cast into hell… where’s the mortals who bring about the population explosion during the Millenium? You can’t procreate in hell nor can you procreate in regenerated, sinless bodies.

      It’s a glaring plothole.

      • James Staten

        Guest, I have heard that explained very similar to you, but you did a wonderful job of laying that out. Most people don’t really think their way through with biblical reasoning.

      • Heather

        Absolutely guest! I still have yet to see a Biblical answer from the “post tribber” crowd on who exactly it is that will repopulate the earth if the rapture happens at the end of the tribulation.

        • Alfred

          Some believe that there will be no earthly kingdom, we go immediately to the New Heavens and New Earth or New Jerusalem. Rev 21-22. We must respect fellow believers in Christ and their different opinion and beliefs without belittling them. Many a great Christian throughout history have different interpretations. But, it is always the pre-tribbers that seem so hostile. Whether or not you are pre-trig or mid or post or pre-wrath doesn’t have anything to do with God’s sovereign grace to his people the elect.

      • Pete

        Guest and Heather, I am not post-trib but one very reasonable answer to your question is that there are nations of human beings in mortal bodies left over after the battle of Armageddon:

        Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

        So those that are “left” go up year to year during the so-called “millennium.” These by definition are “trib saints” who obviously did not die and did not take the mark. They are OF the nations that came against Jerusalem, so they were members of the nations but not in their armies. Make sense?

      • Ron

        Absolutely right if the Rapture is Post Trib no one would be left to repopulate The Earth.

        • Pete

          Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

          What about these people Ron?

          I will await your non-answer and your foolish acidic rant.

          • Ron

            Pete, Yawn! You are a waste of EVERYONES TIME on here.

            For Everyone who is new Here TWR, Tiptopsaidhe, and Pete are False Prophets

            BEWARE ALL

            • twr

              Ron,

              You are absolutely right. In the false doctrine of Christianity, I could be considered a false prophet because I tell the truth. I once had strong delusion and made myself the object of 2,000 year old A and B conversations.

              Matthew 24:3-5King James Version (KJV)
              3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

              4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

              5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

              Who is the messiah talking to here Ron? He is telling his disciples, not you Ron to let no man deceive them. His disciples knew him well. No one could imitate him to his disciples. He is saying many will come saying they represent me, and falsely say the he is Christ. By doing so they shall deceive many. There are fundamental differences between Christianity and the Hebrew faith. The Hebrew Messiah was not Serapis Christ. If by choosing to follow the Hebrew faith it make me a fals profit in your religion, guess I will have to live with it.

      • Ron

        Well Said Guest Very Well Said!

        Blessings!

      • TWR

        70 weeks have been fulfilled. The second coming has happened. This is no 7 year tribulation and no rapture.

        Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
        9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

        Jesus is talking to people standing right in front of him, not you 2,000 years later. Them that stand there will see the kingdom. I suppose there are 2,000 ear old people walking around. When he said this generation will not pass without seeing the conclusion, he was talking to people who were there with him. Writers perspective, not the reader.

        Malachi 4:5King James Version (KJV)
        5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

        Matthew 17:10-13King James Version (KJV)
        10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

        11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

        12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

        13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

        Prophecy was fulfilled. The dead in *Christ have already risen.

        Daniel 12:2King James Version (KJV)
        2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

        Matthew 27:53King James Version (KJV)
        53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

        The Lord wasn’t kidding about strong delusion. Everything Christians believe is going to happen has already happened. Now, it’s time to wake up and be the church

        • Pete

          TWR what is the next item in God’s agenda in your view?

          • twr

            Pete,

            It is time for the formation of the real church. Every successful empire has created a corresponding religion to support its ideology. Christianity supported the Roman/British/American empire. Now it is time for a new empire; a world order. In order to achieve that goal, this empire has to have a corresponding theology. That is why same sex marriage is being promoted in our churches and even legislated by the government. The D.O.J. is suing N.C. over transgender restrooms. If the LGBT community wanted their own churches, it would be nothing to start one or many. Integration is the first step to conversion. Integration of the principals of Islam creates a religious police force.

            The true church will not accept integration. The true church knows the most high does not dwell in temples made by hand. The false church is and always has been a money industry. The CHURCH does not need the church for salvation. The true church just needs to understand the true path to salvation.

            Matthew 18:3-4King James Version (KJV)
            3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

            4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

            No matter what your ancestry or heritage is, Christianity had a convert or die policy for almost 2,000 years. The law is a soul converter (Psalm 19:6). This is why it was important to keep Christians away. People want to say we are not under the law, but does that mean we don’t choose to do what pleases God. If you follow the law there is no wars, genocide, homelessness and starvation. You don’t have to worry about LGBT issues. Religions would disappear. Is this what it means to be a Christian? When someone gives sound doctrine that we are supposed to follow the law he becomes a false prophet. The only way you will ever see the kingdom is submit to God’s law. There is no magic about that. The bible says the Messiah will rule the millennium with an iron rod. What laws do you believe will be followed?

            Long answer to a short question but it’s simple. This is the time for the true church to stand up and be faithful even to death. Christians will conform as they have for 400 years, to save their own lives. Christians have stood and watched genocide, wars, slavery, Jim Crow, racism,Separation of church and state, gay marriage, satanic doctrines like word and seed faith, and now the integration of places of worship with what God considers abominations. There will be some faithful that will stand up to this new empire. Hopefully it will inspire others. The law is the ultimate moral compass. The Israelites were rejected for not keeping the law. I’m sure since God is unchanging, he has the same expectations for anyone considering themselves his church. Those who cannot understand that have received strong delusion.

    • only Jesus saves!

      I can’t stand trying to reason with posttrib #2……

    • [quote]
      “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.” Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

      To finish the transgression? – Christ said that it’s ALREADY FINISHED! (John 19:30 KJV)
      To make an end of sins? – Christ was ALREADY made sin FOR US! (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV)
      To make reconciliation for iniquity? – We’ve ALREADY been reconciled! (2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV)
      To bring in everlasting righteousness? – We ALREADY possess God’s righteousness! (Romans 3:21-22 KJV
      To seal up the vision and prophecy? – We’re SEALED! (Ephesians 4:30 KJV)
      To anoint the most Holy? – We’ve ALREADY been anointed and we’re bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh!

      [end of quote]

      Doesn’t that means that Daniel 70 weeks prophecy was already completely fulfilled 2000 years ago?

      • Jimmy

        No. Israel rejected their Messiah and God will give them the anti-christ and great Tribulation instead until they crave the REAL Messiah. That’s the purpose

        • Alfred

          You are correct apostate Israel did reject their messiah, why? They were not of the promise seed of Abraham, Gal 4:22-31 allegory of the two covenants and Rom 10:16 But, they have not obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith Lord who hath believed our report. Rom 11:7-8 only the elect hath believed and the rest were blinded, As it is written God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear; unto this day. And still at our present day. Isaiah 29:10. God never intended to give the Kingdom to apostate Israel, it was never offered. Read Mathew 21, first in 21:18-19 the fig tree he curses it because it had no fruit, apostate Israel, the parable of the vineyard Isaiah 5:1-7 and Matthew 21:33-40 and finally Matthew 21:43-44 Therefor I say unto you The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation/people bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone (Jesus) shall be broken (elect): but on whomsoever it shall fall, (apostate Israel), it will grind him to powder. God will give the world the anti-Christ. But God always has a remnant. That remnant will be saved by grace through faith just like Abraham and every believer since. Not by some rebuilt temple with animal sacrifices.

        • Heather

          Praise be to God for you brother Jimmy. The Lord has given you an unspeakable courage to speak the discerning truth in this VERY article! Not heeding to the fears and weaknesses that only Satan can bring, you have come out in all boldness! We ARE going HOME SOON! Very very soon and I, being in THE Body of Chris, am ready to leave behind everything, which amounts to nothing in this life!

          • TheGreatTroy

            Heather, how soon, is very very soon ?

          • Pete

            Heather, you say “No one knows the day or hour” but you also say “We ARE going HOME SOON! Very very soon”.

            These cannot both be true. You cannot be sure of a timeframe of “soon” yet not know when that is.

        • twr

          Jimmy

          You are dead wrong and totally confused about tribulation and the rapture. If you will accept some help, I will gladly clarify using nothing but your KJV. Until then, you are really misleading God’s people. There is a price to pay for that.

      • @ Marc

        Thy people are referring to the Jews, the Jews are not reconciled
        to God because they have rejected Jesus as their Saviour, Israel
        have been blinded till the times the Gentiles come in.

        Romans 11:25-26 (KJV)
        25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this
        mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that
        blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
        Gentiles be come in.
        26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall
        come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness
        from Jacob:

        This doesn’t happen till the time of Jacobs trouble, the last 3/12 years
        of what is known as Daniels 70th week, Great Tribulation. In order for
        the church to be involved, we would need a name change like Jacob
        – ( Israel ). The church remains the church, all prophecy has not yet
        been fulfilled.

        Joel 3:16 (KJV)
        16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from
        Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the
        Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the
        children of Israel.

        During the – “TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE “- ISRAEL .

        Another excellent artical by Jimmy !

      • Terri

        483 years were fufilled. the 70 weeks in Daniel were for the hebrew people. the info you copied and pasted was either said by Christ on the cross or by the apostles. not everything in the Bible is meant for Christians. you need to properly divide your Bivle to see if meant for the church or jews. if anyone reading this thinks God broke his covenant with jews due to Jesus deathdo not have faith or trust in God cause he new from the begininng and he would not have had his son born of a hebrew virgin. Jesus was born Jewish, lived and died and was resurrected a Jew. Jesus was not EVER a Christian. frankly if the Hebrew people had accepted Jesus it would have ushered his kingdom then and anyone alive and not Jewishwold have went to hell. Frankly I hate how he died but but i am verry happy from the top of my head to my toes that he was rejected allowing Gentiles the chance to be part of the body of Christ

      • Ron

        Marc no because The Last Week ( 7 Years) will be accomplished in Revelation. Jimmy is right as well. Only 69 of those 70 weeks have been fulfilled.

    • Rowley

      Why all the ranting Jimmy? Just make a simple statement, we can all read. But this is a complete RANT!
      For starters, it is not “cheap grace,” – believe, and your in heaven! Rubbish.
      The “bride of the Messiah” is under obligation to “keep the commandments” (John 14:15; 1 John).
      If you are holding onto worldly possession of any kind – that is your “god” – breaks the 1st commandment.
      The Messiah said In John 6:39; 40; 44 and 54 that “He will raise them on the last day, the “Day of Yahuweh”.
      In 1 Corinthians 15:52 Paul tells us “the dead will be raised ..”.
      In 1 Thess 4:16 Paul tells us again, “the dead in Yahushua will rise first.”
      Now the Messiah has told us when He will raise us in John 6, as above, which is why He tells us to “watch”.
      How can you have “imminent rapture” when we are told in the 1st 3 Gospels to “WATCH”!
      Again, repeated in Rev 3:3 – if you are “NOT WATCHING” the Messiah will return “life a thief in the night.”
      In 2 Thess 5, Paul tells us “we will know when the Messiah is returning, for the true believers are “children of light.” Only those of “darkness will not know His returning.”
      Something amiss here Jimmy? I will believe what the Messiah says before any man!

      Blessed are the discerners.

      • Jimmy

        Ranting? Did you not read the WARNING?

      • @ Rowley

        Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)
        12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted
        in Christ.
        13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,
        the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
        ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
        14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of
        the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

        Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
        5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together
        with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

        We are not saved by works, the work for salvation was completed
        by Jesus Christ on the cross. Our faith in Jesus Christ and HIS works
        is what saves us. ( by grace Ye are saved;) I love the way Paul adds
        this to the end of his sentence to remind us that our salvation is by
        the Grace of God. Because, If we are honest with ourselves, we are
        filthy sinners !

        • Rowley

          Regarding simple faith.
          You are called to read ALL the Scriptures. 2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

          The demons believe in the Messiah as they see Him in the spirit world but they will not walk with the Messiah because they DISOBEY!
          James 2:19 “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

          John 3:3 tells us we must be born again, which means we have to TRUST in the Messiah and what He did. Our sin nature has to change, who does that – the Spirit when we are Reborn, we Repent of sin, and ask the Spirit into our heart who then changes us, we then hate sin. If you do not hate sin, you are not saved. Darkness cannot dwell with Light. Without submission to obedience there can be no salvation. Darkness of Satan/the world cannot abide with Light/Yahuweh.

          1 John 3:10 “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
          James 1:22 “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
          James 2:14 “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”
          James 2:17 “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
          James 2:24 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
          James 4:4 “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”
          James 4:8 “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.”
          1 John 1:6-7 “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
          1 John 1:8-9 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
          1 John 2:3-4 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
          If you worship on a Sunday you worship the son-god and break the 4th commandment.
          1 John 3:24 “And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

          Scripture from 2 Timothy:
          2 Timothy 3:12 “ Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”
          2 Timothy 4:2-3 “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
          For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
          2 Timothy 4:8 “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
          When does Paul get his crown – on “that day”, which day is that? The Day of Yahuweh” when the Messiah returns.
          Bless the Bible discerners

          • @ Rowley LOL,

            “You are called to read all scripture” did you read
            2 Timothy 2:15 ? (KJV)
            15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that
            needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth,

            Now when YOU start rightly dividing YOU will see that James
            is written to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. = Jews !
            YOU will see that your works has zero to do with your salvation
            in the age of GRACE which YOU now live.

            1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (KJV)
            10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a
            wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth
            thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
            11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which
            is Jesus Christ.
            12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious
            stones, wood, hay, stubble;
            13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare
            it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s
            work of what sort it is.
            14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive
            a reward.
            15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself
            shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

            WORKS do NOT contribute to your SALVATION, they are for rewards !
            SALVATION IS THE BELIEF IN THE WORKS JESUS CHRIST COMPLETED
            ON THE CROSS ON OUR BEHALF. If we worked for a billion years it would
            not be long enough because we need the righteousness of God through
            FAITH in JESUS CHRIST !

            Romans 3:22-26 (KJV)
            22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
            unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
            23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
            24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in
            Christ Jesus:
            25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his
            blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are
            past, through the forbearance of God;
            26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just,
            and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

            No works involved ? Just faith in Jesus Christ !

            By the way, I’m using capital letters to emphasis important words
            so you understand salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone and
            not some works you may deem important enough to save you !
            Which it can not !

            • Lin Rimple

              The Jews constitute only 2 tribes. This is one of the greatest misunderstandings in the Church!!!
              What is the difference between the ‘house of Jacob’ ‘house of Israel’ and ‘house of Judah’ ???
              Only one of these are Jews, only ONE. Who makes up the others???
              Without this understanding we’ll never understand when, much less why??
              Read the OT and know who’s who, then ask God to reveal to you who these ‘houses’ are. Blessings.

            • Suzy

              brothers Mike Au and Rowley,

              Please do not forget that.. Faith + Works leads to heaven… for faith without works is dead.

              Works do not count when you are NOT YET saved. But when you ARE saved, you MUST work because WE ARE SAVED TO SERVE and the Bible says that our works will be tried by fire. So we can’t totally exclude works from what is required to enter heaven.

              let the Holy Spirit help us to understand His Word the way He wants us to.

          • Alfred

            We don’t ask the Holy Spirit to do anything, As Jesus said in John 3 the work of the Holy Spirit is a mystery, it is like the wind it comes and goes, we can hear the sound of it, but we do not from where it came from or where it is going. so it is with everyone that is born of the Spirit or born again.

            • Terr

              THEN FAITH BY GRACE IS A LIE IF YOU required to do works and who decides which works are better no doubt some prosperity preachers think they desstined for greatness. only thing works do after accepting Christ is to earn your crowns for the judgmnent seat of Christ and if reqired men will boast which Christ does not want

      • Heather

        “It’s about time there is a “ranting for truth”. You stated, “If you are holding on to worldly possessions of any kind, that is your god-breaks the first commandment. ” Guess you better get rid of your car, and your phone, as well as your internet. Jesus paid it ALL. When He said, “It is finished”, He meant just exactly what He said. It is finished!

        • Rowley

          The Messiah was referring to atonement for sin, He was the Lamb that fulfilled Yahuweh’s requirements.
          Referring to what you can not let go – this becomes your god.
          I John 2:15 “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

    • shanelle

      Thank you…that was a good explanation! Looking for the blessed hope…even so Lord come quickly, get us out of this pit!!

      • SLAYDEN

        It sounds like your harrasing Jesus Christ by repeating stupid things like get me out of here….he will come when he comes not at your calling

    • Paul

      I would add that there is a third category of post-tribber: the don’t-know-any-better post-tribber. These are ones who have not done the legwork themselves, but have trusted in what someone else said. A gal I met at a small group study said that the Rapture was Post-Trib. I kindly asked her why she thought that, and she said that it was what her professor (at Bible school) taught. He was an authority figure to her, and so she trusted that he knew what he was talking about, and didn’t bother to check it out for herself. She was NOT a “Berean” who checked the Scripture to see if these things be so.

      • Jimmy

        My article was aimed to the defenders of the post-trib, but that is a third category.

      • todd

        These same three categories exist within the PreTrib camp also.
        Ok, Berean, give me a verse in Scripture that says the 144,000 will evangelize during the so-called “Tribulation.” And while you are at it, give me a verse that says there is a seven year tribulation. And while you are at that, tell me where it says Jacob’s trouble is this same “tribulation,” of that the seventieth week is Jacob’s trouble. And give me a verse that states that this tribulation (“thlipsis”) is the wrath (“orge”) of God. And don’t quote Daniel 9. There is no mention of tribulation OR antichrist in the passage. Jesus cleary stated when the gathering of the saints occur, but for some strange reason PreTribbers refuse to believe. And don’t quote PreTrib rhetoric about Matthew 24 not being for or about the Church.
        And tell me why the supposed rapture of John is AFTER the Laodicean age, and why there is no trump of God, no voice of an archangel, and no rising of the dead in Christ first.
        The New Covenant has already been made with Israel. The Church IS Israel. The Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets…ALL Israelites. The so-called seventieth week is completed.

        • The Time of Jacob’s Trouble Was TWENTY years, not seven years.

          Jacob said to Laban:

          “This twenty years have I been with thee; thy ewes and thy she goats have not cast their young, and the rams of thy flock have I not eaten.” – Gen 31:38

          “Thus have I been twenty years in thy house; I served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy cattle: and thou hast changed my wages ten times.” – Gen 31:41

          Twenty years he served Laban:

          7 years for Rachel
          7 years for Leah
          6 years for cattle

          TOTAL 20 years, minus 7 that he freely served for Rachel:

          “And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.” – Gen 29:20

          20 – 7 = 13 Years of Jacob’s trouble

          Interestly, there are people that say that Jacob’s trouble refers to the Holocost:

          Jacob was the father of JUDAH (the Jews), the Holocaust refers to the period from January 30, 1933 when Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany – to May 8, 1945, when the war in Europe officially ended. At least six million Jews were murdered. Although Hitler was made chancellor in 1933 he was in full power the year before, 1932.

          1932 to 1945 = 13 YEARS

    • “The masochist post-tribber believes that the body of Christ is somehow mandated to go through vigorous forms of torture or “suffering” in the Great Tribulation in order to “prove” their love for Jesus, “prove” they’re truly Christian, or “prove” that they’re truly saved.”

      it is written:

      “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Rev 2:10

      “They make vain threats such as “when the pretribulation rapture does not happen, you better not deny our Lord!” I then ask them “What if I do? Did Jesus not pay for ALL my sins?”

      It is written:

      “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” Mat 10:33

      “What about the millions of Christians in the body of Christ that died peacefully in a hospital bed like my father? Are you saying that my father and the other millions of Christians that died peacefully and full of years weren’t REAL Christians because they never shed blood or were tortured for the cause of Christ?!?”

      What about the millions of Christians that were tortured during these persecutions:

      Persecution under Nero, 64–68 AD
      Persecution from the 2nd century to Constantine
      The Great Diocletian Persecution
      Persecutions of Christians by Persians in year 341
      Persecution of Christians by Jews AD 516
      Persecution of Christians during the Middle Ages
      etc, the list is long. Read it here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

      then you may understand that “pretribulation rapture” has NO SENSE AT ALL!

      Why are you always ignoring these?

      “If you are a post-tribber reading this, I urge you to REPENT of your heretical views!”

      Begin to repent you yourself, especially for your lack of respect toward thoses who were tortured for Christ. Your article is just s**t!

      • geosaved

        Amen Marc – Well said, thank you, in the writers own words
        he mocks and sarcastically ridicules post Tribbers? What anti Christ conceited
        arrogance. Who is the heretic and false teacher her?
        They are known by their fruits.

        James 3: 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
        17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
        18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. James

        Jimmy is robbing believers of faith that they will need and replacingtheir belief with a sneering attitude that conjules us to trust his opinion.
        Far to little of Christs gentleness and grace to trust this mans rhetoric.
        But sufficient snarling to expose a wolf

        • Jimmy

          You co-signed Marc’s reply who wrote a derogatory remark about the article that I wouldn’t even let my daughter read, yet you say that I lack “Christ gentleness”??

          You’re joking right?

      • Jimmy

        Hey Marc! I couldn’t help but notice through all your blind misapplication of scripture that you STILL did not answer the question from the article:

        WHY would God put only PART of the body of Christ through the time of Jacob’s Trouble?

        • todd

          You assume that the one question masochist post-tribbers can NEVER Biblically answer is why God would only make PART of the body of Christ go through the Great Tribulation?? It has been answered, but you refuse to accept the answer. Beginning with Abel, God’s people have always experienced tribulation. PreTribbers assume that the end time tribulation is more horrendous than any other, but that is not what Jesus said. Throughout history, tribulation and martyrdom has been intermittent and has been localized. What makes the great tribulation “great,” is not the fact that it is worse than any other (for what can be worse than being sawed in two, or burned at the stake?) What makes it GREAT is that it will be WORLDWIDE, affecting the ENTIRE Church through the ENTIRE world, at the SAME time. That is why Jesus tells us that if it was not cut short, NONE would survive.
          The great tribulation is Satan’s wrath, because he knows his time is short.
          Your comment, “Is only PART of the body of Christ going through the Tribulation to make an atonement for ALL of the members that didn’t shed blood or something?? Sounds as foolish as Mormons baptizing for the dead,” and actually every other comment you have made, reveals your complete ignorance in understanding just what PostTribulationalism teaches. It is not about atonement. Its about purifying a fallen, spoiled, proud, self-centered lukewrm Church overcome by materialism and worldly distractions and pleasures. And if you thing that is not a description of you, them maybe you should read Daniel 9: 5-9-19. Notice the “us” and the “we.” That is Daniel speaking.
          During the great tribulation, God is not beating up His Bride. He is preparing her for glory.

          • Jimmy

            Hey Todd, can you provide me chapter and verse where Abel had to endure to the end by not worshipping the beast, nor accepting his name, mark, and number (Rev 14 KJV)?

            This should be pretty easy for you to find since by your reply you believe that the time of Jacob’s Trouble is no different tribulation then what God’s people have ALWAYS suffered.

            • “Hey Todd, can you provide me chapter and verse where Abel had to endure to the end by not worshipping the beast, nor accepting his name, mark, and number (Rev 14 KJV)?”

              In Genesis 4:3-5

              “And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.” – Gen 4:3-5

              666 and the battle for the sacrifice – from Abel and Cain until end-time Religious babylon

              “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is SIX HUNDRED THREESCORE AND SIX.” – Rev 13:18

              “Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was SIX HUNDRED THREESCORE AND SIX talents of gold, Beside that he had of the MERCHANTMEN, and of the TRAFFIC of the spice MERCHANTS, and of all the kings of ARABIA, and of the governors of the country. And King Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target. And he made three hundred SHIELD of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.” – 1 King 10:14-17

              Note the words “SIX HUNDRED THREESCORE AND SIX” (as in Rev 13), “TRAFFIC”, “MERCHANTMEN”, “MERCHANTS”, Arabia wich means “TRAFFIC”, “MIXTURE” (as in the Babylon of Rev 18), “SHIELD”:

              “Above all, taking the SHIELD OF FAITH, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.” – Eph 6:16

              “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.” – Rom 3:28

              ARAB:

              H6148
              ערב
              ‛ârab
              aw-rab’
              A primitive root; to braid, that is, intermix; technically to TRAFFIC (as if by barter); also to give or be security (as a kind of exchange): – engage, (inter-) meddle (with), mingle (self), mortgage, occupy, give pledges, be (-come, put in) surety, undertake.

              H6154
              ערב ערב
              ‛êreb ‛ereb
              ay’-reb, eh’-reb
              The second form used in 1Ki_10:15 with the article prefixed); from H6148; the web (or transverse threads of cloth); also a MIXTURE, (or mongrel race): – Arabia, mingled people, mixed (multitude), woof.

              We are justified BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW, but Solomon made TRAFFIC, and SHIELDS from his 666 talents of gold.

              “Reward her even as she rewarded you, and DOUBLE unto her DOUBLE according to her WORKS: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her DOUBLE.” Rev 18:6

              Why “DOUBLE”?

              Because Babylon has HALF of it RIGHT (faith) intermixed with HALF of WORKS, and to be judged entirely, she have to be judged DOUBLE for it’s “HALF” (WORKS) that is wrong: one half X 2 = entirely.

              So in one sense, 666 Babylon exists since Abel and Cain, and has developped into man-made religions of Faith + Works, and that applies also to some types of Christian churches, for example: faith + baptism or other condition. This is because the sacrifice of Christ is perfect and that adding anything as additional condition for salvation is like saying that Christ’s sacrifice is not enough to save! That’s the mark of the beast. It’s not a RFID chip printed on the skin (but may in the future develop into that also if you have to acknoledge a religion of faith + work to obtain it).

              Please read attentively Revelation 18 and compare it to 1 King 10-14. You will find that even “SPICES” are common:

              “…And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense…” – Rev. 18:13

              “for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.” – Rev 18:23-24

              You see, the Babylon was already here the time the OT prophets were killed…

              How many crimes have been commited in name of Religion… Islamic Jihads, Aztec Human Sacrifice, The Inquisition…

              “They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.” – John 16:2

          • Jimmy

            ROTFL!! Oh…so the reason you believe that only PART of the body of Christ will be mandated to go through the Time of Jacob’s Trouble is not to ATONE for the rest of the body, but to PURIFY it.

            You believe that only a PART of the body of Christ will need to be PURIFIED for the fallen, proud,self-centered, lukewarm church.

            Sounds EXACTLY like catholic purgatory except the “PURIFICATION” occurs on earth!

            How do you manage to keep making such foolishness up??

          • Guest

            Not even a million Tribulations could purify sinful man of his sins.

            If a mere seven years of intense suffering were all it took for man to be cleansed of his sins and his bratty, spoiled behavior, then Christ never would have had to die.

            If the shed blood of Christ can’t cleanse, atone and purify mankind of our sins, then the Tribulation certainly won’t.

        • todd

          You assume that the one question masochist post-tribbers can NEVER Biblically answer is why God would only make PART of the body of Christ go through the Great Tribulation?? It has been answered, but you refuse to accept the answer. Beginning with Abel, God’s people have alway experienced tribulation. PreTribbers assume that the end time tribulation is more horrendous than any other, but that is not what Jesus said. Throughout history, tribulation and martyrdom has been intermittent and has been localized. What makes the great tribulation “great,” is not the fact that it is worse than any other (for what can be worse than being sawed in two, or burned at the stake?) What makes it GREAT is that it will be WORLDWIDE, affecting the ENTIRE Church through the ENTIRE world. That is why Jesus tells us that if it was not cut short, NONE would survive.
          The great tribulation is Satan’s wrath, because he knows his time is short.
          Your comment, “Is only PART of the body of Christ going through the Tribulation to make an atonement for ALL of the members that didn’t shed blood or something?? Sounds as foolish as Mormons baptizing for the dead,” and actually every other comment you have made, reveals your complete ignorance in understanding just what PostTribulationalism teaches. It is not about atonement. It about purifying a Church that has gone into apostasy. The Church in America is self-centered, spoiled, lukewarm and proud, more concerned with the things of the world than the things of God. We are Laodicea.
          Read Daniel 9:9-19. Notice the “us” and the “we.” Daniel included himself in this prayer of repentance. Take note.

        • todd

          What did you do with my last post?

    • Rex

      Philippians 1:29, we are identified with Christ through suffering. The passion of Christ was to suffer for the purpose of demonstrating his compassion and love. It is not about us and what we do it is about who he is and what he does and our willingness to experience his life. If he is truly in us then it should be a joy to know him in every way but especially in suffering which was love lived out. Nobody desires to suffer for the sake of suffering, what we want is to know Christ in it. The ability to suffer through tribulation with joy reveals our true identity in Christ and the very manifest presence of Christ. If Christ was made perfect through suffering Heb 2:10, why would it be any different for those who are truly one with him? Our blessed hope is to experience the very real and manifest presence of Christ in suffering. Love is the ability to suffer because Christ is able to suffer all things and we have Christ.

      • Jimmy

        You believe that everyone in the Bible is saved by grace through faith?!?

        PLEASE read Luke 16 KJV and explain why the rich man is in Hell. WHY is father Abraham briefing the rich man about his life INSTEAD of him rejecting salvation by grace through faith?

        A little common sense goes a long way…

        • Rex

          common sense? The cross is foolishness to the world…

      • Jimmy

        What is your definition of suffering? (I should’ve also addressed this in the article). Every Christian in history has suffered something as a Christian yes, BUT post-tribbers are specifically referring to Christians be mandated to “suffer” by facing the anti-christ. This is both a lie and unbiblical.

        • Rex

          Christ prayed for the cup of suffering to pass him but submitted himself to God’s will, which was for him to suffer. The willingness and ability to suffer, in spite of our desire not to, reveals our true identity in Christ. If it is God’s will that we identify with Christ in suffering in whatever way that He determines will result in our perfection in Christ, according to the measure of faith He has given us, then I hope we all receive it with joy.

        • TWR

          This whole conversation is unbiblical. Everyone will go through tribulation. As bad as it may be, tribulation is still man made. What makes Christians think they are worthy of being rescued from their own doing. Tribulation is about the unification of the body and cleansing of racial, ethnic and religious division that so-called Christians are guilty of (1 Corinthians 12). There will be a reintroduction of the head of that body during tribulation (Malachi 3:18-20). The head of that body is a restored Israel. I don’t know why people ignore scripture and think God still has punishment left for Israel (Isaiah 14:1). The punishment Israel has suffered the last 400 years was meant to humble them (Leviticus 26:34-45).

          People that believe the Jews or the Jewish are God’s chosen are going to be in for a rude awakening. Descendants of Jacob (Deuteronomy 28:15-68) were victims of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. All the prejudice in the world is going to cause many to stumble (1 Corinthians 12:24). This is why there is no rapture. Christians as a whole are not ready to be saved from themselves. Those who remain alive after the tribulation, prior to God’s wrath will be collected along with God’s chosen people (Daniel 12:1). There are two types of people in the bible; Israelites and gentiles.

          Isaiah 56:6-8King James Version (KJV)

          6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

          7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

          8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

          There is no rapture. All tribbers are wrong and speculating. The bible was not written specifically about Christians. That is why everyone has comprehension issues.

    • If it is so crystal clear why do more Christians in the world believe other wise.

    • Alfred

      First of all sir you need to pray for some humility, you have none. Everything comes down to how you define the Church/Body of Christ. There is only one people of God, One Body. Everyone is saved by grace through faith. All the elect of God was chosen before the foundation of the world. Matt 24:24 states it is impossible to deceive the elect of God. So there is your verse, Satan cannot deceive the elect. 2 Thess 2:8-12 and verse 13 states that everyone but the elect that was chosen before the foundation of the world will be deceived. And finally Revelation 13:8 All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose name are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So if the elect/Church is raptured, who are the elect mention here, remember now there is only one elect chosen from the foundation of the world. God only did it once. So I guess you can call me an eternally secured Post-Tribber, I rest solely in Christ. Christ is the promised seed of Abraham. If you are in Him, then you are one of the elect, True Israel of God. You cant anymore secured then that.

      • Jimmy

        You believe that everyone in the Bible is saved by grace through faith?!?

        PLEASE read Luke 16 KJV and explain why the rich man is in Hell. WHY is father Abraham briefing the rich man about his life INSTEAD of him rejecting salvation by grace through faith?

        A little common sense goes a long way…

        • Terri

          why was Jesus a Jew then. Jesus was born, lived and died and resurrected as a Jew. Jesus was not and has NEVER been a Christian.God knew his chosen people would reject Jesus if you believe Gods knows past present and future and frankly if they had not rejected Jesus wwe would not be sitting around debating this because the Kingdom would have started then. Daniel foretold the rejection of Christ by the Jews and isaih did as well. heck in the Garden God tels Eve what is going to happen

        • Terri

          Jesus state we are saved theu grace by faith so no man can boast. prior to Jesus being resurrected the Jews had to follow the laws and of course no one is perfect so they had to make sacrifices sort of a for runner of Jesus resurrection. the 3 days he lay deaed he was in hell gathering those who trusted God’s word in advance but that does not mean every person was saved thru faith. Thr rich man rejected the Laws of God for earthly pleasures and he never helped others so he got his earthly pleasures whereas Lazurus stored his treasures in heaven BUT this has nothing to do about being saved thru faith and not works so no man can boast as that applies to the church which came about after Jesus resurrection. Jesus had not yet died and been resurrected so at that time it did not apply

    • Alfred

      Mr. Jimmy needs not only to repent of his false teaching, but needs to pray for some discernment.

    • Dean

      @Marc

      With respect, in both of your comments you have shown your lack of true biblical understanding.

      There is a huge difference between persecution, of which there have been many throughout and The Great Tribulation of which there will only be one.

      You need to understand what will actually be going on the heavenly realm during the time of Jacob’s Trouble, The Great Tribulation.

      • It’s a misunderstanding. I did not said that there are no “great tribulation”, we are only arguing at WHEN the event called “rapture” will take place and if the CHURCH will experience that great tribulation.

        Unto the angel of the church in Thyatira:

        Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION, except they repent of their deeds. – Rev 2:22

        But, to the angel of the church in Philadelpia:

        “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” – Rev 3:10

        The church is still here during that tribulation, but those that are in God will be KEPT protected, and shall walk in white with Jesus (like Enoch walked with God before the flood):

        “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.” Rev 3:4

    • Lisa

      Dear Brother Jimmy
      When I read sarcastic, arrogant, know it all articles like yours, I just feel sad. You are grieving the Holy Spirit Sir. All of you. who engage in debating in this caustic “everyone else who disagrees with me is an idiot” manner need to ask the Lord to grow some more fruit in your spirits. Kindness, gentleness, Love, patience. We are all one body and you are ripping the body apart, causing division and strife. “They shall know us by our LOVE” And don’t use the excuse of “I warned you all” because by not exercising the fruit of the spirit you are showing just what kind of a tree you really are. I don’t really understand the point of these debates. The fruit of them is ROTTON. God Bless you.

      • Lisa, the point of some of these debates is to make sure people
        understand. – Bible doctrine – which dispensation they live in,
        Ephesians 3:1-5. And not under the delusion that their works can save
        them, which many people include as part of their salvation because
        they do not rightly divide 2 Tim 2:15. They include endurance, keeping
        the commandments when Paul plainly states that;

        Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
        8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
        it is the gift of God:
        9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

        This is during the age of grace that we live in now, not during the time
        of Jacobs trouble that some believe they are unbiblically bound.

      • Lisa, the point of some of these debates is to make sure people
        understand. – Bible doctrine – which dispensation they live in.

        Ephesians 3:1-5. And not under the delusion that their works can save
        them, which many people include as part of their salvation because
        they do not rightly divide 2 Tim 2:15. They include endurance, keeping
        the commandments when Paul plainly states that;

        Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
        8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
        it is the gift of God:
        9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

        This is during the age of grace that we live in now, not during the time
        of Jacobs trouble.

      • Jimmy

        Appreciate your reply Lisa. Thanks for reading!

      • Mark

        Lisa there is no need to soft pedal apostasy and heirs you. Jesus didn’t and neither did Paul.

      • LIONESS

        Lisa when you write the truth the holy spirit rejoices and is not grieved.The problem we have in the body of Christ is people like you who like to compromise the truth in order not to offend others. when Jeremiah stood against the false teachers of his day,he was willing to please God and not to please man.Kindness,gentleness,love and patience is when you tell people the truth about God not cherry picking scriptures but believing all Scripture and not when people are going to hell you want to bring political correctness when it comes to the word of God for he is not a respecter of persons for what so ever a man soweth so will he reap.As we have a loving God,he is also a God of judgement I hope you will be a watch woman on the wall for if we do not warn people of the dangers they are in we all will give account before God and telling people the dangers of sin and consequences of sin and leaving the life of holiness that is the true meaning of loving God may the Lord bless you.

    • Wendy

      Such unchristian attitudes from both side of the argument, I Understand the frustration but where you put the rapture in your doctrine does change the way you understand it. Many mid and post tribbers believe they are the replacement of Israel. This is unscriptural as the tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble, where ever Jacob is mentioned we know it is directed to Israel.

      You need to re read revelation, the church age is a small portion of the Bible not the whole of it. Chapters 1.2 and 3 are to the church, chapter four says after these things, understand the word Age used in the bible this is not meant to be never ending it is an age, a time that will end when a new age begins. The church age is about to come to an end, and the time of Jacobs trouble is about to start.

      Luke 21 v4. Matthew 25 tells of the story of Israel, Jesus says until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Gentiles are those that are not Israel so Both these gospels we see the age term being used. Israel,is our time piece showing us the season. Which undermines the replacement theology theory. Read Daniel 2.7,9 and 11 in conjuncture with revelation.

      The main reason I beleive the pre trip rapture for me is the Holy Spirit and where He is. For Gods word tells us the helper will never leave us and yet in
      Thessalonians 2 v 6 and 7 the Word clearly states that the Holy Spirit is removed. The Holy Spirit cannot be removed unless the church is removed otherwise the Word is in conflict, and as I beleive the Word does not make mistakes and we do not have a spirit of confusion then rightly dividing the Word in context shows that there is no other possibility.

      Those that say we are in the tribulation right now, we are not, we are in the time of sorrows, the birth pangs are getting closer but we are not yet in the tribulation, that will come as soon as Israel signs the seven year peace treaty, again disproving the replacement theory. Israel is the time clock, Israel is the season clock, the tribulation is all,about Israel.

      • Tracy

        Amen Wendy! Clearly written.
        Whenever the empowered true church is removed, the Holy Spirit within each one of us is removed as well.
        The Holy Spirit is our Helper here and now, who helps a Christian to want to obey the Word and do the works of the true church. Doesn’t mean at all that we have to work our way to Heaven, it just comes with being Saved by Grace thru Faith in Jesus. Simple, but true!

        And to the post tribbers who say that we will be here during the tribulation in order to prove our love for Jesus, don’t you know that God knows the beginning to the end; He already knows how we feel, so who are we proving to and what? We accept Jesus Christ into our lives by pure child-like faith; He knows that already.
        He did it for us, not us for Him, we could never measure up to what Jesus has done for each one of us. Yes, people have suffered through the ages with trials and tribulations, we all have, and some much more than others, however, it’s nothing compared to the Great Tribulation described in Revelation.

    • Diane

      Regardless of which stance anyone believes, regarding the tribulation, what makes me sad, is the tone and attitude with which Jimmy, and Geoffrey consistently display, when they’re discussing any number of subjects. Over and over I’ve seen the same pattern: arrogance, haughtiness, mocking, sarcasm, sneering. It is very disappointing, and looks nothing like the fruit of the Spirit (to me). There are certain Christians I’ve encountered, who clearly radiate LOVE, JOY, PEACE, POWER, and HOLINESS…but no matter how long I’ve read the articles on this site, as well as the responses Geoffrey and Jimmy give to commenters, I still don’t see those traits at all. I’ve been delaying my inclination to “unsubscribe” from this site, for several months, now…but I believe this is the time for me to do it. No matter what Biblical or Political information is provided here, I just don’t see love.

      • Jimmy

        Sorry you don’t see the love Diane, but what I see daily is tons of Christians being deceived and losing rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ due to the post-trib false doctrine.

        I also see tons of lost people being deceived into believing a false/perverted gospel of “enduring” instead of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

        Please excuse my attitude/reaction of seeing Christians deceived and lost people falsely converted into believing a doctrine a devils.

        I guess I take it too seriously…

      • Lisa

        Diane,
        I have to agree with you. 2 Timothy 2: 24-26 Titus 3:2 and James 3:17

    • Diane

      Earlier, I posted a comment…and it appeared to show on this site…albeit, briefly. Now, I don’t see my comments, at all. Even if I choose to unsubscribe from this site, shortly, I still would be open to seeing further comments or feedback, regarding this particular post.

    • Sola Scriptura

      I’m hoping for pre trib but it most certainly isn’t eminently clear from scripture either way. I get both arguments and am leaning pretrib… Revelation 3:10 is my safest bet.
      I just hate when anyone says, regarding a matter where it isn’t spelled out clearly, that if God doesn’t do it my way then he’s not a good God. He has to do it the way I see it or the way those who taught me see it.
      Throughout history, some Christians have been persecuted while others living at the same time frame weren’t. If mid trib is right, well it just might happen that we live in a time frame where more Christians have to suffer…but even then, some will and some won’t due to living off the grid or whatever. Suffering and even death should be expected in a world that should hate us for following Jesus according to John 15. We aren’t exempt from it and should be ready – even before the rapture occurs.

      One thing I know – Jesus Christ is sovereign and whether he gives or takes away, allows suffering or raptures me up before hell comes to earth….blessed be his glorious name!!!

      http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2014/10/13/favorite-scriptures-3-whether-the-lord-gives-or-takes-away-blessed-be-his-name-job-1/

    • servant

      Let’s set the foundation right first. I believe in the Christ Jesus who died on the cross and raised on the 3rd day, and my salvation is based on faith in Him alone. Many if not all post trib believers are also on the same page, that I sincerely believe.

      In the history of our Christian faith, many have been wrong before, albeit sincerely, but they have got their understanding wrong. Whether pre, post or mid, we must always be humble and loving towards brothers and sisters who may believe in tribulations and rapture somewhat differently. Maybe post tribbers feel that if it is their lot to suffer thru the great tribulation, they have to get spiritually and emotionally prepped up for the 7 years ordeal, so that they don’t compromise their faith. Not much different from people who are always prepared for the worse case scenarios so that they know how best to brace themselves if the worst happens. I really can’t fault them for this mindset.

      Post-tribbers would have no issues if they are sincerely wrong. They just get raptured and be with the Lord, avoiding the great tribulations and everybody lives happily ever after. When situations turns out better than expected, what’s so bad about that? Remember, we are not saved by their believes in rapture or tribulations, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. So even if there were wrong about rapture and tribulations all their lives, it doesn’t disqualify them from pre-trib rapture if pre-tribbers were right all along.

      For pre-tribbers, I’m afraid for many of them, their world and faith comes tumbling down when they realised they were wrong. Out of the sudden, we are face to face with whether to accept the mark of the beast so that you can buy food to feed your family. Out of the sudden, you have to make a choice whether to deny Christ so that you children would not get executed. What are you going to do? How are you going to deal with it? How strong are you?

      Would you deny Christ?

      • Jimmy

        I STILL cannot believe people don’t get this. If you rapture belief is NOT right, then your gospel NOT RIGHT!

        Do you tell a lost man to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for Salvation? OR do you tell a lost man to NOT TAKE the mark of the beast for salvation?

        You can’t preach both!

        • Amen, brother, you hit upon the crux of the issue and raise questions that the Post-Toasties dare not attempt to answer. In order to make the Church go through the Tribulation and not violate Revelation 20, you have to remove the doctrine of Eternal Security. So YES, your position on the time of Jacob’s trouble ABSOLUTELY changes your doctrine about everything else as well. And what IS Revelation 20 you say? Hmmm….

          “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Revelation 20:4 (KJV)

          Thus we see that IF the Church is in the Tribulation, and IF a “weak Christian” were to take the Mark, then they would NOT be allowed in Heaven. But this now creates a HUGE contradiction in Ephesians where it says that Christians are SEALED until the day of Redemption.

          “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)

          So yes, Bro. J, when you say that “if your Rapture belief is not right, then your gospel is not right”, you are quite correct.

        • Alfred

          What part of eternal salvation don’t you understand? If you are truly a child of God, in Christ Jesus, born again, it is impossible for you to be deceived and received the mark. The Spirit inside a Christian or a Christian that is in the body of Christ, that power is much stronger than anything Satan can do. In Rev 13 the anti-Christ deceives the people whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book Of Life. How much more clear can it be. If this is not true give me a counter verse.

          • Jimmy

            OH..so now you’re a “fake your way through” type post-tribber!

            So now according to your belief, a born-again Christian going through Jacob’s Trouble has absolutely NOTHING to worry about or prepare for because it is impossible for them to deny Christ, worship the beast, receive his mark, name, and number because they’re eternally secure.

            Your stance is so contradicting it’s hilarious. Why are you attempting to “warn Christian” about the coming period if there’s no real threat in the warning?!?

          • Jimmy

            Alfred, What?! Are you serious?!

      • Jimmy

        You did not answer the question from the article: Say pre-trib is wrong like you say, WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF A CHRISTIAN DENIES THE LORD?!?

        What is the consequence of a pre-trib Christian “not dealing with it?”or “not being strong enough?”

        • Servant

          To address your question, in the hypothetical situation that pre-trib is wrong…..what would happen to the multitudes who sincerely believe they would be raptured and then now come face to face with the 7 years tribulations?

          For those whose cherished belief that they would be raptured out of this world, their entire believe system suddenly fall apart. I can’t really answer for anybody. It is one thing to be ready to sacrifice my own life, but what if it concerns my wife’s life, or my children or deny Christ? Would I have the same faith like Abraham when called upon to sacrifice Issac? We all have our own version of Issac(s) in our life, and if comes to the crunch… would we deny Christ so that our own “Issac(s)” would be spared? Or how about this? Accept the mark of the beast so that you can buy needed medication for your own seriously ill “Issac”? Only you need to accept the mark and face hell later, but at least you can save your “Issac”. That’s a possible dilemma we all have to answer for ourselves. Who is your “Issac” Jimmy?

          So the consequences of not dealing with it, I am really afraid to bring this out so clearly, is that instead of believing in our Risen Christ, we end up believing in a ticket that will fly us out of trouble when the time comes.

          I am not saying that Pre-trib is wrong, I am just convinced that many if not all of these Post-tribbers are saved not because of their stand on this pre/post/mid/no trib issue, but rather they are saved solely based on their faith in the risen Christ. I am also equally convinced many who believe in Pre-trib may not rapture if it is supposed to happen before the tribulations.

          • Jimmy

            Thank you for at least attempting to ask the question:

            “Only you need to face the mark of the beast and face Hell later”

            SO by your own testimony, you believe that Salvation is in NOT a FREE GIFT from God through Christ Jesus death,burial, and resurrection for sinners; you believe that Salvation is dependent upon not taking the mark and facing Hell, correct?

    • Anthony

      Jacob’s trouble…go back to Torah and discern who that would be…Judah only? We as believers are composed of the house of Jacob…We are Israel as Paul talks about being ingrafted…and what sins need to be purged out you ask…wrll a perfect example is today…merry xmas…millions of Christians celebrating paganism…and where does our Messiah allow that one? Ohhh we are in for it my friend…prepare your family..http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/FearYaweh77/xmas-nono

      • Rowley

        Totally agree with you Anthony. There is only one Hebrew tribe in Israel at present, the tribe of Judah. So where is the rest? Are they the fellow reborn believers? Most believers cling to Lucifers dispensation – where the “church” replaced Israel – a diabolical lie from the depths of hell.
        If our names are in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world then as Scripture tells us in John 6:39; 40 and 44 we can only come to the Messiah if Yahuweh leads us.
        Another point, if believers are disobedient in this world how can they keep the commandments while with the Messiah?
        The Bible God is a God of order, His requirements for the bride is the 10 commandments (John 14:15 and 1 John).
        Worshiping on Sundays is worshiping the son-god!
        The next point, from dreams and prophecy the US appears to be headed for destruction, do believers really believe they will be raptured before that event while the rest of the believers world wide also, and why?
        Interesting year 2016.

      • Jimmy

        The body of Christ is NEVER referred to as a TRIBE in scripture, but members of a body (1 Corinthians 12:27 KJV). Just because man doesn’t know where the rest of the tribes are doesn’t mean that God is clueless too. God brings the tribes up in Revelation 7 KJV.

        More replacement theology nonsense…

    • Leonard

      Brother Jimmy, first and foremost, I hope you and your family have had a very blessed Christmas. I’m not going to make any nasty comments about your mental acuity, your reading comprehension skills, your knowledge of The Holy Bible or call you a heretic, as you and Brother Geofrey seem prone to do on this particular issue. I’ll just say “Check and mate…”
      Revelation 6:
      9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:(KJV)
      10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (KJV)
      11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (KJV)
      Revelation 7:
      9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (KJV)
      13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (KJV)
      14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (literal translation from the original Greek from the Codex Receptus by way of Jay Green’s Interlinear Bible)

      • Christians in the age of grace do not “receive white robes”, at salvation we are clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Secondly, the people mentioned here are “making their robes white”, by their works.Christians have no works for salvation. The garment for Christians is based on what happens at the Judgment Seat of Christ, something these people in Revelation 6 will never experience.

        Got anything else?

        • It is to the CHURCH of Sardis that it is said:

          “He that overcometh, the same shall be CLOTHED IN WHITE RAINMENT; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. – Revelation 3:5

    • RLJamison

      Jimmy, thank you for your post – that “Jacob” is ISRAEL!!

      Can I add — Messianic teachings about the Jewish WEDDING FEAST is a holy convocation (rehearsal) like the 7 Lord’s Feast Days. The Feast of Trumpets is known as The Wedding Feast AND the Day of Resurrection (among many others)!! The 1st 3 Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits) and then Pentecost (Acts, the Holy Spirit came down). The NEXT one to fulfilled on God’s Calendar is Yom Teruah or Feast of Trumpets!! It is also known as The Wedding Feast and Day of Resurrection!!

      Feast of Trumpets is like a Jewish Wedding. The Bridegroom and Bride are betrothed – the Groom goes AWAY to prepare a place for his bride on his FATHER’s land, until the Father deems it is ready. It is a CUSTOMARY response (idiom) of the Groom when asked (like Jesus was asked in Matt. 24 and Luke 21) WHEN he will return — the Groom responds “Of that day and hour, only my father knows” THEN… when he does return, his arrival is announced with long and waxing TRUMPET BLASTS – he PICKS UP his BRIDE and carries her UP & AWAY and they GO AWAY to CONSUMMATE THEIR MARRIAGE for 7 DAYS!!! Then they RETURN for the Reception! (Jesus responded in an IDIOM “Of that day and hour only My Father in Heaven knows” and “I go to prepare a place for you”)

      In Isaiah 26:20 Amplified Bible (AMP) it reads :
      Come, my people, enter your chambers (God’s place is HEAVEN, so the Chambers are in Heaven)
      And shut your doors behind you;
      Hide for a little while
      Until the [Lord’s] wrath (curse) is past. (
      key part – why would those who are saved be cursed? We are no longer cursed!)

      21 Listen carefully, the Lord is about to come out of His [heavenly] place
      To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their wickedness [their sin, their injustice, their wrongdoing];
      The earth will reveal the [innocent] blood shed upon her
      And will no longer cover her slain.” (This speaks of the Gog & Magog War – it take 7 months to bury the dead and 7 YEARS of burning!! – *huge CLUE
      ISRAEL will NEED to CLEANSE THE LAND before Christ’s return – Ezek. 38-39 Gog & Magog War)
      http://jaymack.net/revelation-commentary/Bq-For-Seven-Months-the-house-of-Israel-Will-Bury-Them-in-Order-to-Cleanse-the-Land.asp

      Verse 20 is repeated with John’s call to “Come up here” and he is in the CHAMBER of the Lord to receive The Revelation of things that have been, things that are and THINGS TO COME.

      Revelation 4:1 Amplified Bible (AMP)
      Scene in Heaven
      4 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a [war] trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place AFTER these things.”

      Also… What is sorely missing from the post-trib view point is Christ returns WITH His Bride to FIGHT alongside Him!!
      How can we ‘return’ if we’ve just been raptured at the very end??
      The Hebrew/Aramaic OTIOT CLEARLY depicts the Harpazo or Nechatef as a SNATCHING OUT OF HARMS WAY.

      And… also answer the question of why Paul speaks so clearly that THIS IS THE MYSTERY REVEALED… that all will NOT sleep… so comfort one another with these words. For all the post-tribbers… Where is the comfort in going through what Jesus describes as the most intolerable and unprecedented times of trouble in ALL of History combined!!

      Jesus said (Matthew 24) it will happen immediately AFTER the tribulation (birth pangs – it hasn’t started YET) of those days… He will appear in the clouds… And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet (this is not the last trump) and they (angels) will gather together His elect (God’s chosen ones) from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

      There has been and is ongoing tribulation(s) and then there will be The Great Tribulation – UNPRECEDENTED HORRORS.
      Simply put… Jesus (the Groom) is not a ‘Wife-Beater’!! He will not let us, who are truly His, endure THIS!!
      http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/brideofchrist.htm

      Isaiah 24:17-23 New Living Translation (NLT)

      17 Terror and traps and snares will be your lot,
      you people of the earth.
      18 Those who flee in terror will fall into a trap,
      and those who escape the trap will be caught in a snare.
      Destruction falls like rain from the heavens;
      the foundations of the earth shake.
      19 The earth has broken up.
      It has utterly collapsed;
      it is violently shaken.
      20 The earth staggers like a drunk.
      It trembles like a tent in a storm.
      It falls and will not rise again,
      for the guilt of its rebellion is very heavy.
      21 In that day the Lord will punish the gods (the fallen angels) in the heavens
      and the proud rulers of the nations on earth.
      22 They will be rounded up and put in prison.
      They will be shut up in prison
      and will finally be punished.
      23 Then the glory of the moon will wane,
      and the brightness of the sun will fade,
      for the Lord of Heaven’s Armies will rule on Mount Zion.
      He will rule in great glory in Jerusalem,
      in the sight of all the leaders of his people.

      The LORD of Hosts comes with his ARMIES to Defeat the Antichrist — that are CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, CLEAN & WHITE!!
      I truly believe THE SAINTS that were ‘caught up’, hidden away during the GREAT Tribulation are these Armies with Jesus!!

      And Revelation 19 reads:
      “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Rev. 19: 11-16)

      • LIONESS

        thanks and God bless

    • giles

      Jimmy,

      The tone of your article is a great cause for concern. Jesus said in the last days the love of many shall grow cold among believers. You’ve put forward your arguments in such an arrogant and sarcastic manner, you’ve even used the word heretics a few times about Christians who are as just as serious about the Lord as you. I believe He is God, like you. I believe he Bible is the inerrant Word of God, like you. I have been llaughed and ridiculed denied promotion because of my faith. But because I don’t agree on this issue, you’re calling me a heretic? It is not something to divide believers over.
      Its not that I don’t have answers to your questions, or reasons for disbelieving the Pre trib idea. You’ve just put me off actually conversing with you.

      I hope you are right about getting “raptured”, because I have children and would rather die peaceful deaths like your father and my mother; and not like believers in Syria and Iraq getting their heads cut off. But from what I have studied, I don’t see a quick way out of whats coming.

      In fact, I don’t even see the word “rapture”.

      • Guest

        You don’t see the words “Bible” or “trinity” either in the Bible. However, the event of the rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians, Chapter 4.

        Paul says that both dead and living believers will rise to meet the Lord in the air. So, we can deduce that a rapture-esque event HAS to happen lest God’s Word be false.

        So since we can confirm that a rapture has to happen, the next question is: WHEN will it happen? And that’s where the confusion and arguing lies.

        I believe pre-trib makes the most sense chronologically and theologically. It honors Christ’s death on the cross instead of what Post-Tribbers declare in their saying that we need the Tribulation to “purify” us rather than Jesus’s own shed blood purifying us. Post-Tribulationism makes a mockery of the cross.

        The pre-trib also makes sense chronologically. The pre-trib affords time for the marriage supper of the lamb, the bema seat, and everything else. Plus, it doesn’t logjam everything at the end of the Tribulation.

        Further, Post-Tribulationism splits all of humanity into two sects: believers and unbelievers.
        By Post-Trib logic, at the end of the Tribulation ALL believers are raptured to heaven and ALL unbelievers are cast to hell… leaving nobody left. This begs the question: where do the surviving mortal believers come from that the Bible teaches will enter into Christ’s Millenial Kingdom? We need those mortals to help repopulate the earth and to help continue expanding Christ’s Kingdom! Believers are unable to reproduce in their new immortal bodies and unbelievers certainly can’t reproduce if they’re in hell. It’s a really big plothole in Post-Trib logic.

        Finally, the Church being during the Tribulation represents a huge barrier to the establishment of a one-world religion which all ties into God’s end times plans. If the Church were still here… don’t you think we’d fight tooth and nail against a one-world religion being established? But if we’re taken out of the way… prophecy unfolds as outlined and as planned. Even the muslims would fight against this! They’d NEVER bow to a human declaring himself to be God as the Antichrist will. But I have the feeling that Islam’s days are shortly numbered…

        So upon review, the pre-trib rapture theory makes the most sense, at least to me it does.

        • James Staten

          Guest, I will assume you are the same person that I responded to yesterday? You write very well, and are succinct. It’s just a shame that more people just don’t get it, and I believe without being long winded that they don’t understand where the Apostle Paul fits into this “Dispensation”. They don’t comprehend that Paul was given marching orders by the risen Savior from glory. They don’t realize that Jesus in his earthly ministry came to fulfill the promises made to the Fathers. Jesus came to Israel (Jews). I often ask why did Jesus in scripture only have dealings with Gentiles twice? Three times if you count the woman at the well, who was a half gentile. Paul tells us that Gentiles were without hope, outside the promises made to the Fathers. Without looking up the scripture, Paul tells us that at one point we knew a man after the flesh, but we know longer know that man(paraphrase). The risen Savior gave Paul new information the “Mysteries”, and unless you understand this, you might as well throw 52% of the New Testament away, if Paul also wrote Hebrews? My last comment is that for an example if one is to believe Paul then the Church in the Wilderness can’t possibly be the Church, which is His Body…the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is a New Creation composed of Jews and Gentiles and it was one of the mysteries revealed to only Paul. If one examines 1 Corinthians 10:32…Paul addresses “Three” groups during this dispensation of Grace. Jews, Gentiles and the Church which is His Body. One can look high and low all throughout scripture, but only Paul speaks of the Body of Christ. In the same vein you address about there being no one to repopulate earth at the Lord’s 2nd Coming if Post-Tribbers are right, what they fail to realize is at the Catching Away of the Body of Christ, there are two groups left… the Jews in Jerusalem, where mostly all end time prophecy unfolds and a Christ rejecting Gentile world that says “Let’s take Jerusalem” and destroy the Jews. The Pauline Epistles…Paul is our prototype. He states Follow me as I follow Christ. Jesus is the Foundation, but Paul is the Master-builder. One day every man will be judged by Paul’s Gospel. I am sorry that I am long winded!!!!

          • Guest

            Let me see if I can sift through your reply. No need to apologize for long responses.

            I agree with you in regards that Post-Tribbers fail to realize that the Jews and others will be left here once the rapture occurs. And there’s very specific reasons for that: The Tribulation is FOR the Jews (and unrepentant gentiles) in order to get the Jewish people to wake up and turn to Christ for salvation. If you take that into consideration… that shows that Jesus, and ONLY Jesus, can save and purify mankind of their sins… not seven years of intense suffering as the Post-Tribbers like to tout. If intense suffering were all it took to purify mankind of their sins, then throw out the cross, throw out Christ… He died for nothing. That’s why I can’t stand Post-Tribulationism–in my eyes, it makes a mockery of the cross.

            But cycling back to my next point, the other big reason the Jews are left is because it is from them that we get the sealed 144,000 Jewish Witnesses who will be a tour de force in helping spread the gospel during the Tribulation period. Consider this… if the Church were still here during the Tribulation, and there are about 2 BILLION Christians on the earth… why on earth would we need the 144,000 Jewish Witnesses if the Church is still here? 144,000 is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what 2 billion could do evangelizing in force for Christ.

            So yeah, I wish the Post-Tribbers would wake up. Some of their attacks greatly confuse me, especially those of them who claim that the pre-trib rapture is a doctrine of the devil. … Yeah, um… last time I checked a doctrine of the devil would NEVER warn people about what’s coming and encourage them to give their life to Christ. I’d say the Post-Tribbers who proclaim that are reeaaaallllyyyyy stretching.

            It’s definitely a struggle we’re in. What gets annoying though is reading some these comments about the author of the article not being “loving” enough. Nothing is more irksome than people who have to resort to attacking somebody’s character because deep down they know the article has made several good points… so since they cannot refute the article they act wounded and say that the Holy Spirit is severely lacking in the author.

            Guess what? When you warn people, that’s an act of love! Trying to get people to wake up from dangerous doctrine that makes a mockery of the cross is being loving! Love isn’t always sunshine and happy feelings; sometimes you have to be blunt, maybe even a little smarmy and sarcastic, in order to wake people up!

            • James Staten

              Guest, I had written earlier, but for some reason it hasn’t posted? I agree with you wholeheartedly!!!!

          • Ryan

            Amen James! Well said, the key is to rightly divide the Word of truth and understand that Paul is our Apostle for the Body of Christ. The verse you are referring to 2nd Corinthians, “Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.” The confusion went away for me when I realized the distinction between prophecy (dealing with Israel) and the “Mysteries” (dealing with the Body of Christ). The church The Body of Christ was one of those mysteries that the Risen Lord revealed to Paul. The Biblical definition of a mystery is found in 1st Corinthians 1:7. The Holy Prophets and Jesus during his earthly ministry did not speak of the Body of Christ because it was not revealed to them at that time because they dealt with Israel. The Body of Christ had a different origin and has a different destination than Israel. Israel’s is earthy and the Body of Christ is heavenly. We are told by Apostle Paul to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery. The Pre-Trib makes sense when you understand that the Rapture was one of the mysteries that the Risen Lord revealed to Paul (1 Thes. 15:51). The Body of Christ has no business being in the book of Revelation because its a book of Prophecy (Rev. 1:3) dealing with Israels 70th Week of Daniel. The confusion in the Body of Christ today is mixing the prophetic program with the dispensation of Grace.

            • James Staten

              Ryan, Thank you…You say it far superior to me. People just don’t have a clue about Paul. Paul’s Mysteries…Praise the Lord

      • Jimmy

        Thanks for your reply giles.

        However as I stated before, if your rapture is not right, then your gospel is not right.

        Do you tell a lost man to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation? Or do you tell a lost man to not worship the beast or receive his mark?

        You can’t preach both!! That’s why I call post-tribbers heretics

    • Raul

      All we have to look at is what YESHUA told us,
      After all he not only came to save us but to guide
      us with his word and actions showing us and
      giving us a perfect example on how to live.

      You want to argue against his word you do so at
      your own peril, for we know what happens to
      Stumbling blocks. Matthew 24:3 walks us trough
      what has been happening until now, and when
      We get to verse 9 we learn what is about to pass
      to us the body of Christ and I quote: then shall they
      Deliver you(his followers) up to be afflicted, and
      shall kill you: and ye (believes) shall be hated of all
      Nations for my names sake.” Next is the part you
      Teachers of the word should be careful about so
      you don’t depart from the faith, and I quote vrs10
      “And then many shall be offended, and betray one
      another, and shall hate one another” he is still referring
      To us as believers, but why should we get offended
      And hate other believers hmmm……… Could it be
      that some believers will be mad and annoyed that
      Their doctrines were false this beliving the Bible
      Was all a lie? Be careful my brothers and sisters
      And like I said at the start look to our perfect example
      That is YESHUA , be blessed and be a blessing!

    • Terri Stoikes

      Good article. First if the post tribulation is right exactly when is the marriage supper? We go up and turn around with no Bema judgement to ride with Christ at his return? Seems silly. Unless you believe the Christians will just be watching. My problem is more with the Mid-Trib types. Personally I think they are confusing the concept of tribulation with Tribulation ( a matter of degree) And as far a denying Christ…. Peter did 3 times in one night but Christ forgave him. And of course don’t forget the folks who think we have gone through/going through the tribulation right now. The claim WW2 was a part of it. So far haven’t heard who the Anti-Christ is supposed to be. Again thanks for the article.

    • Leonard

      Geoffrey, you’ve been whipped like a red-headed mule. Be a man and own it. Their is NO reference stating the those in the white robes performed any works of any kind. If you wish to claim otherwise, prove it with Scripture…

      • @ Leonard

        Jesus tells the apostles in Matthew about the “Great tribulation”
        and in Matthew 24:13 Jesus says ” But he that endure unto the end,
        the same shall be saved. This is a “faith plus works salvation” as apposed
        to Paul’s Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are Ye saved through faith: and that not
        of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
        The Great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble, Jeremiah 30:7, WE live in
        the age of GRACE : those people in the time of Jacobs trouble do NOT have
        grace ! Nor are they sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit Eph 1:13-14.
        excluding the 144000 Jews from the 12 tribes. All scripture KJV.

        In Rev 14:12 The people that go through the time of Jacobs trouble
        are told :

        Revelation 14:12 (KJV)
        12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the
        commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

        faith plus works based !

        Revelation 22:14 (KJV)
        14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may
        have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates
        into the city.

        faith plus works based !

        James 2:17 (KJV)
        17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

        If you rightly divide, 2 Tim 2:15 you should know that James is
        written to the Jews, during the time of Jacobs trouble and is a
        faith plus works based salvation.

        The people in rev 7:14 are tribulation saints, they are never referred
        to as the Church, they endured to the end as suggested in Matthew
        24:13, during the time of Jacobs trouble.

        Meanwhile back on the rightly dividing ranch, we have the church
        already in heaven before the time of Jacobs trouble ?

        Isaiah 26:20-21 (KJV)
        20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut
        thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment,
        until the indignation be overpast.
        21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the
        inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall
        disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

        So the church is raptured to be with the Lord before the time
        of Jacobs trouble and then the Lord punishes the earth for
        their iniquity. You need to rightly divide so you can learn what
        dispensation you are in ! The age of grace, not Jacobs trouble
        or both !

        John 14:2-3 (KJV)
        2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I
        would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
        3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,
        and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

      • Jimmy

        “red-headed mule” LOL.

        A Christian is WASHED in the blood. The Apostle Paul NEVER states that a Christian is mandated to wash THEIR ROBES through the blood via tribulation.

        Revelation 1:5 KJV – And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

        1 Corinthians 6:11 KJV And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

        • twr

          I never knew the bible was so misunderstood until I understood. What is Christianity to God? Christ came to save his own people. Hebrews 9:15 says Christ’s death was for (Israel’s) release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant. Fortunately, that included the original sin which condemned us all. Jeremiah 31:31 says God will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. The new covenant had to be established with Christ’s ascension (Heb 9:17). The new covenant is for Israelites, either by genealogy or gentiles grafted in.

          The story has a beginning and an ending. Why are people confused on the state of Israel? Israel will be restored before tribulation is over (Zephaniah 3:18-20). There is no body of Christ without Israel (HEAD and NOT THE TAIL). Why would the tail go in first? There is no such thing as a church until this is all over. The purpose of the church was gentile conversion. Israelites didn’t go to church. They had their own customs. The church was corrupted by Rome. Under the new covenant God wrote his laws in the minds and hearts of the true Israelites. There are people who never heard of Christianity that will be saved. Many who call themselves Christians will be lost. God is still the God of Israel. He didn’t convert to Christianity. Gentiles were supposed to convert (Gal 3:29). You are speaking of things in which you have no clue.

    • God’s people should not fight over this. This is not a Salvation issue. We should be ready ALWAYS for His appearing. I have seen the nastiest quarrels between the brethren over the timing of the Rapture. Jesus would not want this. We MUST agree on the essentials of our faith, but fighting over this pleases the enemy.

      • Hi Geri, no disrespect, but if people believe that their works are
        part of their Salvation then it is a Salvation issue, and there are
        some on here that do ! If they die before trusting on the shed blood
        of Jesus Christ alone, I certainly wouldn’t like to be in their shoes !
        Any way, I hope your keeping well, you and your family, especially
        your husband, I sincerely hope he’s alright. God bless !

        P.S, I read your articles on rapture ready, a gem of a site !

      • Jimmy

        Thanks for your reply Geri.

        However as I stated before, if your rapture is not right, then your gospel is not right.

        Do you tell a lost man to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation? Or do you tell a lost man to not worship the beast or receive his mark?

        You can’t preach both!! That’s why I call post-tribbers heretics

    • There is a rapture but it is really Post Trib, occuring during the Great White Throne Judgment that happens when the Earth ends AFTER the Great Tribulation, AFTER the 1000 year Reign of Christ on Earth and AFTER the Gog-Magog wars. The earth ends when our sun like any other star in the universe approaches the end of its life, swells up becoming a red giant and makes the earth uninhabitable. This is the lake of fire talked about in the scripture below.

      2 Peter 3:10-13 “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and Godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed his coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promises we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of the righteous.”

      This scripture talks about how all of the dead are resurrected to face this final judgement and what happens to those whose names are not in the book of life.

      Rev 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and him (Jesus) who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence (as well as from the sun’s heat), and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. ( left to burn in the dying sun’s heat) The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

      The following scripture says what happens to those whose names are found in the book of life.

      Rev 21:1-4 “ Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

      The rest of Revelation Chapter 21 goes on to describe the new Jerusalem which has to be a super-natural spiritual city (ie heaven) because anything physical will be vaporized by the dying sun’s heat

      If you read the most famous “rapture” scripture below after reading about the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20 and 21 it is easy to see that is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment and not some imaginary rapture thousands of years earlier before or immediately after the Great Tribulation period.

      1 Thess 4:15-17 “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord (with the New Jerusalem at the end of the earth), will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first (to be judged according to Rev 20:11-15). After that, we who are still alive and are LEFT (name written in the book of life) will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And we will be with the Lord forever. (according to Revelation chapter 21)

      The Great White Throne judgment is also referred to in the following scriptures. Again when you put all of the pieces of the puzzle together you get the complete picture of the Great White Throne Judgment that each scripture alone can’t provide.

      John 5:28:29 “Do not be amazed by this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

      1 Cor 15: 51-53 “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”

      Matt 25:31-46. “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats…..”

      • TheGreatTroy

        Craig, there is a rapture but it is really Pre-Trib.

        • There is no such thing as a rapture anywhere near the Great Tribulation Period. I say this because I read the scriptures that ACTUALLY say what happens to the rest of God’s people during the Great Tribulation. These scriptures paint a picture of God’s saints being actively persecuted because of their faith during the Great Tribulation Period. God’s saints will also passively starve to death because if they don’t take the mark of the beast to keep their name written in the book of life they won’t be able to participate in the beast’s economic system as a free person. They can however survive as the slave of someone who does have the mark of the beast.

          Rev. 12:17 “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and off to make war against the rest of her offspring – those who obey God’s commandments and hold on to the testimony of Jesus.”

          Rev.13:5-10 “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given the power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast – all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. He who has an ear let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed.”

          Rev. 13:16-17 “He (The beast) also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name”

          Rev. 7:9 “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

          Rev.7:13-15 “Then one of the elders asked me, “Those in white robes – who are they, and where did they come from. I answered “Sir, you know” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them”

          Rev. 6:9-11 “when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?’ Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed”.

          Once you get past all of this horrible bad news there is some incredible good news contained in Revelation 20:4-6

          “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a 1000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended (at the Great White Throne Judgment). This is the first resurrection (The GWT Judgment is the second resurrection). Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death (GWT Judgment) has no power over them (because they passed it early), but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a 1000 years.”

          So truth once again truth is stranger than fiction. Instead of being raptured to meet Jesus in the air BEFORE the Great Tribulation Period begins everyone will be asked to take the mark of the beast. Those that do take the mark of the beast will endure all of the bad things that happen during the Great Tribulation period only to end up in hell afterward. Those don’t take the mark of the beast will be killed, enslaved or starve to death. Their soul will spend 3 ½ years or so wearing a white robe and serving the Lord in heaven and then they will be resurrected to return with Jesus AFTER the Tribulation to reign with him for a 1000 years. They won’t be subject to the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the earth because they have already passed. This means that we all have a one time offer that was never made to any other group of humans living on Planet Earth to live for 1000 years and see the year 3000 and something and pass the Great White Throne Judgment early.

          • Heather

            @Craig, Notice in the verse you posted Revelation 13:10 He who has an ear let him hear. These were familiar words that the Lord Jesus spoke to the 7 Churches. Yet they are worded differently. In Revelation 3 on several occasions we read the words,”He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”. So why is the words “Spirit” and “Churches” missing?

    • TWR

      You will never understand as long as you think like a Christian. God has always been and is currently the God of Israel. Even when the Messiah came, he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. God did not convert to Christianity. He extended the invitation to non-covenant people (Ephesians 2:19) to become members of his household (Israel). Nowhere in the Bible does it say God is the God of Christianity. People assumed when Rome adopted Christianity it was under some edict from God. Because Christ name was attached, people assumed this new doctrine was from God. The Messiah’s name was not Jesus. Christ simply means anointed. There was no Jesus Christ in the biblical era. Early Christians worshipped Serapis Christus. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/serapis.htm

      There is no rapture. If you put all of your scriptures attributed to the rapture on the same page, you will see when the Messiah is coming and for whom.

      29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

      30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

      31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      1 Corinthians 15:52 – In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      Daniel 12:1-2 – And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE (ISRAEL): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

      Revelation 11:15-19 – And the SEVENTH angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

      The bible is not about Christians. That is why you are having trouble deciphering where you fit and everyone is on a different accord. God is not the author of confusion. The Messiah is coming one time. Where do Christians fit?

      Isaiah 56:8King James Version (KJV)

      8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS (GENTILES) to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    • Leonard

      Howdy, Mike au! Okay—get what you’re saying, but I don’t believe you to be correct. Here’s why:
      John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father: Jews clearly didn’t believe in Jesus, so he’s not addressing them. My belief here is that the “works” referred herein are of our own ministry performed as the spirit moves us. Not rituals, or prescribed activities (the 7 Sacraments of the Catholic church, for example).

      15 IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS Jesus was addressing the apostles here, not Jews. The Commandments are a minimum behavioral expectation for all Christians.

      16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever: again, Jesus was addressing the apostles. Jews weren’t expecting a comforter.

      17 Even the Spirit of truth; WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE BECAUSE IT SEETH HIM NOT, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Again, it wasn’t jews to whom He was speaking.

      Now, please carefully consider what John is saying in Rev 7:9. It’s indisputable that he’s speaking not about Jews; 14 shows that they were either killed during the Tribulation or survived it–but they definitely saw it with their own eyes.

      Revelation 7:
      9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS, and KINDREDS, and PEOPLE, and TONGUES, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
      13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
      14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Textus Receptus)

      Hope this clarifies my position a little better.

      • Leonard, G,day mate !

        Leonard, I can see what your talking about, BUT !

        Paul is the apostle to the Gentile Church, all doctrine regarding
        the gentile church were revealed through Paul and no one else.
        Our dispensation is the age of grace, if you stick with Paul you can
        follow the age of grace and see the differences in doctrine between
        the teachings of the apostles to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles.

        Romans 16:25-26 (KJV)
        25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my
        gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation
        of the MYSTERY which was kept SECRET since the world began,
        26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,
        according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known
        to all nations for the obedience of faith:

        All our works are judged at the Beamer seat of Christ, for rewards :
        1Corth 3:10-15 God will judge the motive behind our works, not that
        I’m saying your works aren’t good, but I do get what your saying about
        the Spirit prompting you, as apposed to religious sacraments of certain
        religions.

        The apostles were told to preach to the “house of Israel” they had no
        idea there would even be a Gentile church ! The apostles “Jews” were
        preaching to “Jews” that was their audience, commanded by Jesus !

        Matthew 10:5-7 (KJV)
        5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go
        not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans
        enter ye not:
        6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
        7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

        Ok, so following Paul, our apostle, were told that the Gentile church
        would have to come in- raptured, before the time of Jacobs trouble.
        Those people in Rev 7:9-14 come to faith in Jesus during the time of
        Jacobs trouble when the church has already come in, so what I’m
        saying is, they are not the church according to Paul ! They are right-
        fully called tribulation saints.

        Romans 11:25-26 (KJV)
        25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
        lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is
        happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
        26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come
        out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

        I’m not trying to offend you but rather you see that the church is not
        on earth during the time of Jacobs trouble.
        The Jews don’t get saved until they call upon the name of the Lord
        at the end of the time of Jacobs trouble.

        Isaiah 48:9-12 (KJV)
        9 For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I
        refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
        10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in
        the furnace of affliction.
        11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how
        should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
        12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first,
        I also am the last.

        You will also notice that the word “church” appears nowhere in the time of
        Jacobs trouble.

        Sorry about the delay in response, I’m spending time with family.

        • Leonard

          Hello, again, Mike au! You seem to be making the argument that the saints of Rev 7 are part of a second Rapture (maybe I’m misunderstanding). I believe there’s only going to be one Rapture for all, and so far have not seen any Scripture that absolutely states otherwise. That’s why God’s people will be “sealed”. We ARE going to be here for the Tribulation, I’m afraid. We have to be strong, absolutely refuse the mark–and it will be hard, but it will, I’m sure, be a matter of choice. When you can’t buy or sell without the mark, you won’t be able to pay your mortgage or rent, purchase groceries,pay water bills or other public utilities, medications or medical treatment, gasoline for your vehicles, taxes–and all of the pain it will cost you if you don’t, you and your kids will go hungry, and without shelter. Many will undoubtedly cave in and take the mark. We must be strong, expect discomfort and watch for the path which God will show us in order for us to survive those times.

    • Trober

      Appreciate the earnestness, but waaaaaaaaaaay off.
      70-week prophecy already fulfilled: Christ’s first advent and departure, and it was to-the-day.
      Jacob is not Judah is not Israel prophetically.

    • Edwitness

      Great job Jimmy,
      Describing the reasons the post trib position is incorrect.
      I have wondered aloud the same question when speaking with post-tribbers. What possible purpose would it serve for a Christian to be made to go through the Great trib?
      We are as ready as we will ever be because we have been made that way by Jesus’ power. Not ours.

    • giles

      Jimmy,

      I see nothing wrong with telling someone both to accept the Lord Jesus AND not to take that mark. Its clear that failing on either issue would send someone to hell, however the difference is when each decision is set in stone. Someone has their whole life to decide to follow Jesus or not, and th point of no return is death.
      Not so with the mark of the beast. It says clearly that whoever takes that mark is finished. Come to think about it, I have told someone to do both in the same conversation – accept Jesus, and later when they asked about the end times and about this mark, I told them not to take it (personally I believe it will be the Islamic Bayah, a sworn allegiance to their Mehdi)

      The main issue, which you haven’t responded to at all, is your attitude displayed in the article. If it puts me off, it’ll definitely put off unbelievers. This really is not an issue that you should get nasty over.

      • Jimmy

        Your reply makes absolutely no sense.

        Is a sinner SAVED by believing on television Lord Jesus Christ OR is a sinner SAVED ONLY when he commits to follow Jesus throughout his life without denying him?? That’s called WORKS giles! That is not the gospel of the grace of God.

    • Laura L

      I was wondering if anyone could explain 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6. Whenever I’ve listened to sermons on the topic of the timing of the Rapture, these verses almost never mentioned even though they are on that particular subject. Will the anti-christ be revealed before the Rapture?

      • James Staten

        Laura L…I have made a friend over the last few years through the internet. His name is Doc Samdahl. He is basically on the same page as Mr Grider or Mr Randolph. He has a web-site that I mention from time to time. He will take time to answer your questions. He has several wonderful articles, and one of these is about 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. It is an excellent read. It might help? Blessings, James http://doctrine.org/1-and-2-thessalonians/

      • Edwitness

        Laura L,
        The explanation for the timing of the reveling of the AC is in the next two verses. Vs’ 7&8.
        In vs 7 we find that someone is holding back his revealing. To “let” is to hold back.
        “Until he is taken out of the way” is the timing. We know this because in vs 8 it starts with “And then shall that wicked be revealed”.
        Now all you have to do is figure out who is holding back the AC’s revealing. Personally I believe it to be the church through the power of the Holy Spirit that is holding back (letteth). Because the church has been given the ministry of reconciliation. 2ndCor.5:18.
        Also because Enoch and Lot are symbolic of the church. They were removed before the destruction came just as the church will be.
        There is nothing else that can be described as holding back (letteth) the evil from totally saturating the world. The church will be gone (raptures) before the AC is revealed.
        Blessings:-}

        • TWR

          Not even close to the truth.

          There is no rapture. If you put all of your scriptures attributed to the rapture on the same page, you will see when the Messiah is coming and for whom.

          29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

          30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

          31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          1 Corinthians 15:52 – In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

          Daniel 12:1-2 – And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE (ISRAEL): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

          Revelation 11:15-19 – And the SEVENTH angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

          Isaiah 56:8King James Version (KJV)
          8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS (GENTILES) to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

          Israelites and gentiles occupy this earth, whether you call yourself Christian or not. Everyone will go thru tribulation. You are in it now. Just because it hasn’t fully hit America, we think it’s not here. How do you explain those who are already being killed and beheaded for their beliefs in other nations? God collecting his people at his appointed time does not amount to a rapture. It is what he says it is; a collection. They are being spared his wrath (Daniel 12:1), not tribulation. If you really want to know what transpires during tribulation, look up 2 Esdras 16 in the online 1611 KJV.

          • Edwitness

            TWR,
            Laura L asked about 2nd Thes. And you use everything but the context of the passage to explain your interpretation. Not of the passage,but of what you define the rapture to be.
            That is fine for you, but I will stick with the passage’s context for the correct understanding of it.
            It’s ok to rightly divide the word, but “you didn’t even come close to the truth”.
            Blessings:-}

            • twr

              Subject is the rapture. There is no such thing. Everything I used verifies that. If that is not truth, it’s not out there.

          • Leonard

            Is this early King James the version of the Bible you recommend? I looked up the scripture you referenced here and found it fascinating.

            • TWR

              Yes. Recommend 2 Esdras 16 for those who still believe in false rapture doctrine. It is KJV. It is the prophet Ezra. I’m sure they removed it from the protestant bible to promote the fake rapture.

    • There is a 666 calculator here:

      http://antichristcalculator.tripod.com/

      Using A = 6, B = 12, C = 18, etc

      Mark of Beast = 666 Bio Implant = 666 RFID Scanner = 666 RFID Body Tag = 666 E-Identity = 666 Digital ID Chip = 666 A Satanic Mark = 666 Sorceries = 666 Witchcraft = 666 Necromancy = 666
      etc…

      I typed the word “pretriber” and got 666 as result…

    • Heather

      Paul told us we were to comfort one another with these words. The words were about our being gathered to Jesus in the air. So let me ask a question. Right now, who is comforting who? When I see the current Body of Christ comforting eachother over the context of the words Paul spoke, I see it being done through those who are decerning of Paul’s words of the pre tribulation rapture.
      Which view can be seen as comforting one another. Pre Time of Jacob’s trouble, or post time of Jacob’s trouble? The thought of the Church being hurled into that time for no good reason, when physical demons will abound, is absolutely no comfort at all to me.
      1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)

      13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others
      which have no hope.

      14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

      15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not
      prevent them which are asleep.

      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and
      the dead in Christ shall rise first:

      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

      18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    • Lin Rimple

      OK, I’m ready for your rebuke since I too am a post tribber. But first please answer me
      What is the difference between the House of Jacob and the House of Judah???
      And who is the House of Israel?? Are all these houses the same folks?? If so, why does the hole Scriptures make clear distinctions of the houses???
      Until one understands what happened there in I Kings 12, they will NEVER know who and why the tribulation.
      Also, just because one is appointed to something does not ensure one makes the appointment.

      • Jimmy

        @Lin

        House Israel represents to ten northern tribes while the House Judah represents the two southern tribes. They are BOTH together the Jewish nation of Israel. The Houses split up over during the reign of Solomons son Rehoboam over excessive taxation.

        No different than the Confederate army of the South and the Union army of the North, it’s STILL the U.S.

        Even if you didn’t know all that, simply read Revelation 7 KJV when God list ALL the Houses of Israel as his elect, not just Judah.

    • bremertonchristian

      So was Martha wrong when she TOLD Jesus she knew Lazarus would be resurrected on the Last Day? A study of the Last Day proves the second coming and the culmination of the first reserection happen on the Last Day. If the rapture happens before the Last Day then the bible is wrong. Paul beseeches us about the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him. Did Paul invert the order of opperations? Indeed Paul assumed he would be alive at the second coming. It is impossible for Paul to be raptured pre-trib and be alive at the second coming. Cant be done. So let me guess, Jimmy and Geoffrey, I’m not a born again christian because I take the bible literally. According to your theory there is a time period approaching when someone who reads the bible, believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, confesses with their mouth, the death burial and resurrection of Jesus are not enuff? Wow! I feel sorry for myself and anyone who reads the bible during the “time of Jacobs trouble” and believes this wierd idea that by grace through faith we are saved. Time to shave the back of your right hand and get ready for your mark that “can’t possibly be the mark of the beast because I won’t be here”.

      • TheGreatTroy

        bremertonchristian, you need to read and study you Bible.

      • Jimmy

        The pre-trib rapture was revealed by the Apostle Paul to the body of Christ.

        There was no body of Christ nor Apostle Paul during the time of Martha.

    • Suzy

      “Post-Tribber #1– The eternally secure Post-Tribber:

      This is the post-tribber that believes in eternal security and applies it throughout the Great Tribulation. I sarcastically mock this kind of post-tribber by pinpointing the fact they’re practically going to “fake their way” through the Tribulation. I mean seriously, if you’re an eternally secure post-tribber, what is the point of going through the Great Tribulation? Especially when you believe that you can worship the beast, get his name, mark, and number and STILL BE ETERNALLY SECURE AND GO TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE! Talk about diplomatic immunity!”

      The above really makes me wonder how a Christian (not only post tribbers) can even believe and defend OSAS from the get go.

      God help us.

      • Jimmy

        Eternally security is doctrinally true for the body of Christ, that’s why the body of Christ is not present during the time of Jacob’s Trouble.

        To reject eternal security of the body of Christ is to call Jesus a liar when he said “It is Finished!”

    • bremertonchristian

      The great troy; thanks for the advise brother. So when does Lazarus get resurrected? Is the bible wrong? Why doesn’t Jesus correct Martha when she sais she KNOWS that Lazarus will be resurrected on the Last day. I think these are valid questions and I haven’t been given a doctrinal answer on the matter so I will just have to continue believing the bible is not in error. Jimmy, what does Paul have to do with Martha’s statement to Jesus? Was she wrong, and if so why would Jesus not correct her? Thanks for your time.

    • bremertonchristian

      I believe in eternal security and you would call me post-tribber. What’s the joke? I don’t get why that’s so hard to believe. Suzy calm down, you don’t have to worry you got your ticket punched and are getting out of here before the bad stuff happens so why make a fuss. You folks can’t make rapture timing speculation into a salvation issue. Just keep hating on your brothers and sisters who mite not be as well studied as you and I’ll keep on loving you. Why do I feel like you guys would be nicer in a face to face conversation. Because that’s what this should be, a conversation, a discussion between family members.

      • Hold on a second. If you are a post tribber you cannot believe in eternal security. That is an absolute impossibility.

      • Pretribulationism is no more only a rapture timing view, but has become a false religion in itself. Now according to some “extremist” pretribers, if you believe in another rapture timing, you are lost!

        Pretribulation rapture extremism is part of the endtime false Christianity, which includes hyper-grace, OSAS, liberty to sin: – “…if I deny the Lord, the blood of Jesus did not already washed all my sins?” -, faith without works, prosperity – “no need to help brothers and sisters in need, they have to work hard themselves” -, etc…

        “Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:6-7)

        Gold and silver are tried with fire, yet pretribers, by rejecting and to avoiding all trials and temptation, acknowledge by themselves that they are not gold nor silver. Maybe God also don’t try them because there are not worthy…

        Eternal security? We will have it once we are in heaven. But before that:

        “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” 1 Cor 10:12

    • Willard

      I always find it hilarious dealing with post-tribbers. The ones I deal with can NEVER Biblically answer this question: What is the point of forcing the body of Christ to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble?? What is the purpose?? God is not the author of confusion and God specifically gives us the reason why the Jewish Nation of Israel will go through it:

      Evidently you do not understand The FEASTS OF THE LORD – Just like the Spring feasts were fulfilled on their exact days Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Feast of Weeks so will the Fall Feasts be fulfilled in exactly the same way – Trumpets (ten days of Awe Jacobs trouble) Yom Kippur (Zech 12:10-12 followed by Tabernacles when the Lord becomes our physical King

      Neither can per-tribbers answer why christians are on earth when the man of rebellion appears – 2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of
      lawlessness revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

      Nor why the dead have to rise before Jesus brings back those who went before us is we are just to escape the tribulation

      1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, (Feast of Trumpets) with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,(Feast of Trumpets) and the dead in Christ will rise first – Pre -trib is a complete lie

    • WILLARD

      Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life

      IS THE ABOVE A REFERENCE TO THE TEN DAYS OF AWE – WHICH MAY WELL BE THE SO CALLED GREAT TRIBULATION

      Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth

    • willard

      What Is The Point Of Putting The Body Of Christ Into The Time Of Jacob’s Trouble?

      What was the point of almost all of the disciple being killed, Steven being stoned, Paul killed the tens of thousands murdered through history burnt at the stake, quartered, the ME Christians being beheaded by ISIS today etc etc

      Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life

      The ten days above may well be the ten days of Awe

    • bremertonchristian

      Why is that impossible brother Grider? No really I’m asking here. If it is impossible as you say can you please show me the contradiction. It seems to me that the word saved can mean several things; saved from drowning, saved from hell fire. Why is it that when the bible says he who endures to the end the same shall be saved MUST be talking about saved from eternal damnation. Heather; maybe the people who repopulate the earth during the millennium are the survivors who don’t accept the mark.

    • bremertonchristian

      Willard; I also found a study of the Feasts of the Lord fascinating. It seems simple to me that since Christ fulfilled the spring feasts in His first coming that He will fulfill the fall feasts at His second coming. I wish so many western christians weren’t opposed to learning about our hebrew roots. No Geoffe I’m not a 119 cultist, I watched pastor Mark Biltz sermon on the Feasts of the Lord and found it illuminating. Since we weren’t raised Jewish there is a lot we don’t understand. Faith plus works is a very dangerous doctrine but not all hebrew roots movements preach that, from what I can tell. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, I have put my faith in His completed works, I can not add to His completed task I can only accept Him. If I go through the tribulation I know that I am sealed. I won’t receive the mark and the devil can’t make me. If there was a person who claimed to be born again and receives the mark they are dammed and it just proves they were never saved to begin with. To me it makes sense why Jesus says “I NEVER knew you”. Same argument that defeats osas opponents. God is outside of time and He knows the beginning from the end and therefore cannot be fooled. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth… well He’s the only one who knows if we believe. He knows who will take the mark, He knows the hairs on our head. What kind of post-tribber does that make me. I was talking to a brother about these topics and his constant reply was “how is that a salvation issue”? Well sometimes it isn’t. I would love it if we could be a family even if we disagree. Thanks again for your time and for trying to teach people like me who are trying to learn.

    • bremertonchristian

      Willard; I also found a study of the Feasts of the Lord fascinating. It seems simple to me that since Christ fulfilled the spring feasts in His first coming that He will fulfill the fall feasts at His second coming. I wish so many western christians weren’t opposed to learning about our hebrew roots. No Geoffe I’m not a 119 cultist, I watched pastor Mark Biltz sermon on the Feasts of the Lord and found it illuminating. Since we weren’t raised Jewish there is a lot we don’t understand. Faith plus works is a very dangerous doctrine but not all hebrew roots movements preach that, from what I can tell. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, I have put my faith in His completed works, I can not add to His completed task I can only accept Him. If I go through the tribulation I know that I am sealed. I won’t receive the mark and the devil can’t make me. If there was a person who claimed to be born again and receives the mark they are dammed and it just proves they were never saved to begin with. To me it makes sense why Jesus says “I NEVER knew you”. Same argument that defeats osas opponents. God is outside of time and He knows the beginning from the end and therefore cannot be fooled. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth… well He’s the only one who knows if we believe. He knows who will take the mark, He knows the hairs on our head. What kind of post-tribber does that make me. I was talking to a brother about these topics and his constant reply was “how is that a salvation issue”? Well sometimes it isn’t. I would love it if we could be a family even if we disagree. Thanks again for your time and for trying to teach people like me who are trying to learn. By the way you’re a hero of mine Mr. Grider, keep up the good fight.

    • bremertonchristian

      My post was lost. Don’t know what happened. Oh well it was long winded. I just wish we could be a family even if we disagree. Thanks again for trying to teach people like me who are trying to learn. Your a hero of mine Mr. Grider even if you dispise me.

    • Willard

      The Willard; I also found a study of the Feasts of the Lord fascinating. It seems simple to me that since Christ fulfilled the spring feasts in His first coming that He will fulfill the fall feasts at His second coming.

      When the church rejected the LORDS FEASTS because it did not want to be seen as being Jewish it began to loose a lot of understanding – it is the Sabbaths and the Jubilees along with the seven feasts which point to both the first and second coming of our Lord I am not suggesting that the church is irrelevant by any means because as John said below – there is no other way but Christ crucified but for a large part the church has lost its compass – it lost its calendar – and it lost a lot of understanding ts understanding – we can see that when the Pope says this week that even atheists are saved

      Jn 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

    • Willard

      I may or may not be right but I see a rapture if there is one as being possibly pre-wrath – fall feast days (Yom Teurah) Feast of Trumpets – it seems clear to me that the Lords return is associated with a trumpets call. It is also this feast in the 7th month the Jewish New Year that the day and the hour were not known because of the sighting of the first sliver of the new moon being uncertain as I said these are my thoughts if we acknowledge The LORDS FEASTS

      Zep 1:14 “The great day of the LORD is near near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there.
      Zep 1:15 That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness,
      Zep 1:16 a day of trumpet and battle cry…………………..

      Mt 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
      Mt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

      1Co 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed

      1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

      10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets

      Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, b and he will reign for ever and ever

    • John
    • Pete

      Wow. I totally agree with your assessment of how the death of Jesus Christ has already answered all of these things for the church: finish the transgression, make an end of sins, make reconciliation for iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up the vision and prophecy, and anoint the most Holy. But I would argue that these things are also DONE for the Jews. Since Jesus came to earth to die and to save HIS PEOPLE (Israel) from their sins, then how anyone can say that His death, burial, resurrection and ascension didn’t finish the 70 weeks is beyond me. Just because the nation of Israel as a whole did not accept Jesus as Messiah doesn’t make His death any less of the answer to all of these things. Or….are you saying that Jesus has to come and die AGAIN in order to fulfill these 6 things for the Jews??????

    • Willard

      Th seventy weeks are 70 Jubilees of 7 weeks of (SABBATH YEARS) per Jubilee or 3500 years of time from the time that the Jews entered the land (Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people )until Christ comes as KING

    • Pingback: You’ve Missed The Pretribulation Rapture Of The Church, Now What? |()

    • Michael Muniz

      I feel offended by this article. I come to this website often for prophetic news in our current time, but i find this specific piece conflicts with scripture. I would be classified as the 1st kind of post trib believer described in the article, and judgement from anyone here isnt important to me, but id like to clarify a few things… Matthew 24, Jesus specifically talks about the end times and “rapture”. In v.29 He says “immediately after the tribulation” He will send His angels to gather us from the 4 corners. In Thessalonians paul mentions a “mystery” that we would be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but also says in 1 Thess. ch 4. V.14 ” we wich are alove and remain UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD…” will not be “raptured” before the dead in Christ… Jesus only mentions 1 return . there is no re-return mentioned in prophecy. And 2 thess. 2:3 says the return/ rapture wont happen until the son of perdition/ antichrist is revealed which is in the middle of the tribulation period. And to answer the question of why the body would remain through tribulation, id offer romans 8:17, 2 tim. 2:12,2 tim. 3:12, 1 Peter 3:14 and 1 peter 4:1. I enjoy your website, however id ask that you would be a bit more kind hearted and patient toward us “eternally secure post tribbers” who “offer pathetic answers.” God bless and Great website brother. There is a lot i learn from it.

      • Dean

        Because in Matthew Christ is specifically speaking to the Jewish people, hence the subtle differences recorded by Matthew and Luke.

        The 4 gospels show four different aspects of Christ.

        Matthew – The Jewish aspect
        Mark – The servant aspect
        Luke – The human aspect (us as gentiles)
        John – The spiritual aspect.

        • Michael Muniz

          This is true, however paul “shew[s] you a mystery, we will not all sleep…” but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the APPEARING OF THE LORD, Jesus delivered the end time revelation in the gospels, and paul revealed it to gentiles but nobody ever says it will happen pre-trib.

          • Dean

            The new testament church all expected Christ’s imminently, hence the use of the salutation ‘maranatha’ at the end of the verse in 1 Corinthians 16:22

            The letters to the Thessalonians was in response to their concern of missing the rapture.

      • What does the phrase “the time of JACOB’S trouble” mean to you? How does the Church fit into that scenario?

        • Michael Muniz

          Congrats on the website’s success first of all, several people feature it on youtube which is how i came to read it daily. Very informative and well written.

          Now, the time of jacobs trouble to me is a horrible time. Christ describes it it matthew 24 saying “brother will deliver you up…” just like esau sought to kill Jacob. Jacob went through a horrible but blessed life, however he wrestled with God. So i see it as a horrible time in which all of mankind (not just jews) will go through. It will be an unparalleled time of anguish and suffering. Jesus says He who endures to the end shall be saved and i believe that lines up with James and peter when they say to rejoice in tribulation. (obviously this is not referring to the tribulation of the end times however i believe it to have the same meaning).

          Jesus also says that we will be persecuted, delivered up and killed for His name sake. Mark 4:17 is what you would call an “empty threat” but to a God fearing post trib believer, i believe it to be a truly sincere concern. You may openly mock us for believing what scripture plainly says, but Christ is simple. He is not the author of confusion. The church will be killed in the tribulation ( which is not Gods wrath), but even in revelation God tells the saints to be patient and wait for the brothers who will also be killed as the saints were. I believe it to be a testimony and i believe it will glorify God to die for Christs sake, not to be taken out of the world as Christ says in John 17 i think? I just feel offended that you would make an entire article bashing a group of brothers’ belief especially in an unloving manner. Correct me, rebuke me, but for the sake of Christ, do not insult the bretheren for what may seem like a misunderstanding on our part. I have studied and have not come to the same conclusion as you, and maybe i have misunderstood text, be patient and have mercy with us. Be gracious, thousands of brothers look here for end times watch, dont turn them away for the sake of being right and being rude.

        • TWR

          Geoffrey/Jimmy

          This prophecy has been obscured by false doctrine of the seven years of tribulation. If you would read Daniel’s prophecy, you would see all had been fulfilled. There is no seven-year tribulation, so it doesn’t matter which part some believe to be the rapture.

          Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
          Daniel 9:25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
          Daniel 9:26 “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
          Daniel 9:27 “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

          We find in Daniel 9:24 that God gave Daniel’s people 70 weeks to end their sin and rebellion against Him, but if they ignored this warning then God would reject Israel as His chosen nation. When Bible prophecy is symbolic, the proven and established day for a year principle applies. (See Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34) So Daniel’s 70 weeks (490 days) is actually a literal 490 years. Daniel 9:25 informs us that these 70 prophetic weeks began with the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

          Daniel 9:25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”

          This well-known starting date for the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7:13). Remember this date was also the beginning of the 490 years God gave Israel to end their rebellion and so the 490 year period ended in A.D. 34. Daniel 9:24-25 informs us the Messiah would be anointed after a total of 69 (7 + 62) of these prophetic weeks had passed. That is 483 years (490-7) from the 457 B.C. decree date and brings us to the year A.D. 27. This was the exact year Jesus was baptized by John and the Holy Spirit anointed Him for His ministry. The Greek word “Messiah” means “Anointed One” and so we know this can only be the fulfilment of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy that the Messiah would appear in A.D. 27. The Jewish initial period was 70 weeks but Jesus appears as the “Messiah” after 69 weeks. So the 70th and final week is left for Christ to minister before the 70th week ended. What happened in this 70th and final week?

          Daniel 9:27 gives the answer, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”
          The “midst of the week” is half of 7 days being of course 3.5 prophetic days, which is 3.5 literal years being the time from the baptism of Jesus to His crucifixion. And as you would expect, the Bible confirms the ministry of Jesus lasted exactly 3.5 years. When they crucified Jesus in the spring of A.D. 31, the temple veil was rent from top to bottom, (Matthew 27:51) which signified the end of the sacrificial system. By His own death Jesus caused the “sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” The remaining 3.5 literal years brings us to the end of the 70 weeks. The disciples laboured mainly for the Jews during those three and a half years and in A.D. 34, the 70 weeks ended when Stephen was stoned after his immense speech before the council in Acts chapter 7. The Jews had rejected the Gospel message and so the Gospel began to go to the Gentiles (Acts 8:4).

        • Pete

          Geoffrey, you wrote //What does the phrase “the time of JACOB’S trouble” mean to you? How does the Church fit into that scenario?//

          First of all, you have zero biblical proof that the “time of Jacob’s Trouble” and Daniels 70th week are the same time period. I know you are all puffed up and arrogant about how smart you think you are, what with making tee-shirts proclaiming this supposed “truth” you think you have. But Jesus never mentions this time period in any context, much less in the Olivet Discourse. Nor does Paul, nor John. In fact this time period of “Jacob’s Trouble” appears only in the original context of Jeremiah’s prophecy, when he spoke about the Babylonian captivity, a “time” that was occurring in HIS day. Which is why Jeremiah uses PRESENT TENSE language:

          Jer 30:6-7 Ask ye NOW, and SEE whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore DO I SEE every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces ARE turned into paleness? Alas! for that day IS great, so that none IS like it: it IS even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

          Do you notice the CAPITALIZED words here Mr. Grider? Those are called PRESENT TENSE words. This was not a vision Jeremiah had. It was a REALITY of what HE SAW in HIS DAY. Even Daniel 9 backs up that Jeremiah prophesied of the 70 year Babylonian captivity come to an end. We know this is what Jeremiah was talking about. Not some mythical 7 year tribulation at the end of the world, 2600 years from the time he wrote it.

          Furthermore, since you proclaim this is the time of JACOB’S trouble…then it can’t be the time of the GENTILES trouble either, right Mr. Grider? So, Gentiles today have nothing to worry about, anymore than the CHURCH has anything to worry about. Right?

          • TWR

            What 70th week? People haven’t figured out that is false doctrine because they listen and regurgitate what they hear instead of doing the work. All of Daniel’s 70 weeks were fulfilled. I just sent that message.

            We find in Daniel 9:24 that God gave Daniel’s people 70 weeks to end their sin and rebellion against Him, but if they ignored this warning then God would reject Israel as His chosen nation. When Bible prophecy is symbolic, the proven and established day for a year principle applies. (See Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34) So Daniel’s 70 weeks (490 days) is actually a literal 490 years. Daniel 9:25 informs us that these 70 prophetic weeks began with the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

            Daniel 9:25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”

            This well-known starting date for the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7:13). Remember this date was also the beginning of the 490 years God gave Israel to end their rebellion and so the 490 year period ended in A.D. 34. Daniel 9:24-25 informs us the Messiah would be anointed after a total of 69 (7 + 62) of these prophetic weeks had passed. That is 483 years (490-7) from the 457 B.C. decree date and brings us to the year A.D. 27. This was the exact year Jesus was baptized by John and the Holy Spirit anointed Him for His ministry. The Greek word “Messiah” means “Anointed One” and so we know this can only be the fulfilment of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy that the Messiah would appear in A.D. 27. The Jewish initial period was 70 weeks but Jesus appears as the “Messiah” after 69 weeks. So the 70th and final week is left for Christ to minister before the 70th week ended. What happened in this 70th and final week?

            Daniel 9:27 gives the answer, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”
            The “midst of the week” is half of 7 days being of course 3.5 prophetic days, which is 3.5 literal years being the time from the baptism of Jesus to His crucifixion. And as you would expect, the Bible confirms the ministry of Jesus lasted exactly 3.5 years. When they crucified Jesus in the spring of A.D. 31, the temple veil was rent from top to bottom, (Matthew 27:51) which signified the end of the sacrificial system. By His own death Jesus caused the “sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” The remaining 3.5 literal years brings us to the end of the 70 weeks. The disciples laboured mainly for the Jews during those three and a half years and in A.D. 34, the 70 weeks ended when Stephen was stoned after his immense speech before the council in Acts chapter 7. The Jews had rejected the Gospel message and so the Gospel began to go to the Gentiles (Acts 8:4).

            • Pete

              I agree that Daniel’s 70 weeks are fulfilled long ago. I am asking Mr. Grider to answer for his continued, arrogant spewing of false doctrine, throwing this into the faces of Christians who disagree with him. I appreciate what you say but my argument is not with you.

              Not that Geoffrey will take the time nor does he care what I have to say.

          • TWR

            I understand. There is no argument. These tribbers base their hopes on a prophecy that was fulfilled. Then, they ignore the real prophecy in Revelation 2:10 that says tribulation is ten days. Since Daniel’s prophecy was fulfilled, the kingdom is already here. Nowhere does it say Christ is coming on a rescue mission for Christians. After tribulation, God will collect his elect. Everyone is not being changed into spiritual bodies.

            One common misunderstanding is to think that only those who are resurrected or changed into immortal bodies will enter the kingdom. This would leave no one in the kingdom who could possibly sin or die. But Matthew 25:31-46 describes Jesus Christ dividing the sheep from the goats at the end of the great tribulation. This is the judgment of the Gentile nations (v. 32). All of the people gathered on the Lord’s right hand are survivors of the great tribulation and will pass into the kingdom in their mortal bodies. They will bear children who are mortal as well. The same is true for the many Israelites who will survive the great tribulation, and will bear children in the kingdom. Ezekiel 37:25-26 says, “And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.” All of these people and their descendants will be capable of both sin and death in the millennial kingdom, even though Satan will be in chains and unable to influence them.

    • Willard

      I think Jacobs Trouble can be seen in Ezek 37 – which may well have been the holocaust

      • TWR

        Jacob’s trouble could not have been the holocaust because there were no Israelites there.

    • James Staten

      I have two comments to make in this discussion. One is Thank God for Sir Robert Anderson, and his work “The Coming Prince”. If I might “chase a rabbit” for a moment. It often dawns on me how dumb down stupid we have become particularly in America over the years. In the last year or so I saw a copy of a test to graduate from the eight grade from about 100 years ago. They literally had to be proficient in Greek, Hebrew. Latin and English. Why do I say this? Many outside the Scripture consider his book “The Coming Prince” to be the classic on this subject. Sir Robert Anderson was from a quick google an Attorney, Pastor and was Second in Command at Scotland Yard in Intelligence. I think it is needless to say he was proficient in these areas of study. He lived in a time when men where being awakened to the distinction between Israel and the Body of Christ. Men’s hearts were stirring from the Jewish perspective for a return to their homeland, and Born Again Believers were starting to see from a dispensational view that the Lord wasn’t through with Israel. My Second Comment deals with the Epistles of Paul..In 1 Corinthians 10:32, Paul addresses Three Groups of people. Give no offence to the Jews, the Gentiles or the Church of God, which Paul in other areas of scripture makes clear is the Body of Christ. If I am not mistaken Paul is the only person in all of scripture to use the term the Body of Christ. Again it comes back to the “Mysteries” revealed from glory by the Risen Savior to the Apostle Paul. Secrets which had never been revealed before to any man even while the Lord Jesus was in His earthly ministry. Such as the mystery of the Blinding of Israel, the mystery of the Body of Christ, the One New Man, a New Creation composed of Jews and Gentiles during this dispensation of Grace, and the Catching Away of the Body of Christ. One can call whatever time is coming upon this earth by several names, but one thing is clear to this layman, after the Catching Away of the Body of Christ. What do you have left? The Jews in Jerusalem, and a Christ rejecting Jew hating Gentile world that says, “Let’s destroy them and take the Land”…I will now let Geoffrey and Jimmy fight this battle. I hope this helps someone?

      • twr

        If you read Ezekiel 9, God himself destroys the counterfeit Israelites who now occupy Israel. Israel is not a land, it is a people (Luke 21:24, Revelation 3:9). The non-Israelite Jews controlling Israel are gentiles. It is important for people to do their own research or find someone who does not repeat false doctrine. This is a link where you will truly understand the millennial reign. It is nothing like what has been described here. This is a must read and easily verifiable.

        http://www.matthewmcgee.org/millen.html

    • Trober

      Of all the many articles I’ve read on this site, this is by far the worst. And, self-evident it is not inspired by the Holy Spirit. For example,

      “I sarcastically mock this kind of post-tribber”

      There is refuting someone, but the above is not doing it Biblically:

      “Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.” Phil 4:5

      and, more could be referenced.

      As for Daniel’s 70-week prophecy: IT HAS BEEN 100% FULFILLED. There is no 70th week yet to come.
      1. Christ came EXACTLY at the start of the 70th week.
      2. He died EXACTLY in the middle of the 70th week.
      3. Christ was still around, seen by many, for some time thereafter.
      4. Paul started the “church age”, and ironically, EXACTLY when 40 jubilee cycles were done from Exodus to Christ taking the sacrificial system away.

      A very sound study on this: https://www.wake-up.org/newsletter-archive/day-star-newsletter/the-70-weeks-of-daniel-9-may-96a.html/

      And several very solid calendars:

      https://www.wake-up.org/charts/Big70tv.pdf
      https://www.wake-up.org/charts/Jubileev7view.pdf

      (No, I don’t work for nor represent wake-up.org. For this particular topic, their study is rock solid).

      To answer the author’s question:

      The ones I deal with can NEVER Biblically answer this question: What is the point of forcing the body of Christ to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble??

      (Only some) answers:

      “If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved–even though only as one escaping through the flames.” 1 Cor 3:15

      “His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn” Lk 3:17

      “For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap” Mal 3:2

      “because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” Heb 12:6

      “For you, God, tested us; you refined us like silver.” Ps 66:10

      “See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction” Isa 48:10

      and the list could go on and on.

      FACT: MANY BELIEVERS ARE GOING THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION BECAUSE THEY ARE ON-THE-FENCE OR UNDISCIPLINED ABOUT THEIR WALK WITH CHRIST.

      • You are teaching the HERESY of Preterism, that all prophecy has already been fulfilled. So if the time of Jacob’s trouble has already taken place, please tell us when and where the oceans were dried up, drinking water became Wormwood, and when did the 100lb hailstones, dripping with blood and on fire, fall from the sky as Revelation clearly teaches? Since you say that Daniel’s 70th Week already happened,please show us where in history all the Trumpet, Bowl, Seal and Vials judgments fell on humanity.

        Also, please use King James ONLY when posting scripture verses.

        • Pete

          Geoffrey,

          How is it HERESY to believe some prophecies have already been fulfilled? You believe certain prophecies have been fulfilled too. Everybody is a partial preterist. I can understand disagreeing, but “HERESY”? Please explain how it’s heretical to believe the Olivet Discourse was not for our time, but for the disciples’ time? You believe at least a portion of it was – the destruction of the temple. How does it take away from the glory of Jesus? How does it replace Jesus with idols? How does it take away from His work?

          You also fail to understand symbolism in the Bible and apocalyptic language. Go read Psalm 18 including the preamble, for example, and tell me how those things were literally fulfilled in David’s time.

          • Show me where the judgments of Revelation were fulfilled in human history, and please show me all 28 of them. Thanks!

            • Pete

              Geoffrey, so you think YOUR interpretation of the future is far more likely than MY interpretation of the PAST??? Why does that make any sense at all? You are a fallible human being yet you think you know the future better than those of us who know the past? What an interesting concept. That being said:

              You ask a fair question. Those who claim that Revelation’s judgments occurred in the past, should be able to plainly show when and where those things came to pass. I don’t have all of the answers yet. I’m not arrogant like you Geoffrey. I don’t think I know it all. But one thing I do know: the pre-trib, modern dispie narrative of “the end times” is absolutely, 100% not the correct view.
              I do believe (as do millions of other born-again Christians who attend the same churches you attend) that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Old Covenant in 70AD (as well as the 3.5 years leading up to that) fulfilled those things. Since none of us was there, we don’t have all of the information. But Rev 1:1 was written in the 1st century. And it explicitly states to the readers (the 7 churches of Asia Minor) that those things were to happen “shortly”. And verse 3 says the time is “at hand.” Do I know how all these things were fulfilled? Nope. I just believe what the Bible says, sir.
              I will ask again: explain how the act of interpreting the words “at hand” and “shortly” literally is HERESY. Just because I cannot show in history an exact fulfillment of individual judgments in no way cancels out what these simple, plain words mean. I thought you dispies read the Bible LITERALLY!!
              The main issue is the 70th week of Daniel, and you cannot prove that is future. Daniel 9 says that Jesus is cut off AFTER the 69th week. What comes after the 69th week Geoffrey? And why shouldn’t we read Daniel 9 LITERALLY and assume that all 70 weeks happen in a row, just like the 70 years of captivity Daniel mentions in Dan 9:2? Where in scripture does it ever state there is a 2000 year “parenthesis” between Week 69 and 70 called “the church age”? Nowhere. Yet your ENTIRE system rests upon that shaky foundation. If I were you, I would be a little more certain of the foundation.
              Somehow I doubt you would listen even if I listed all of the judgments that came to pass and their historical fulfillment. You already believe that all fresh water on the planet is going to be undrinkable (Rev 16:4), in a wooden literal sense. Of course, you cannot explain how a massive army gathers in Armageddon soon after that. Without drinking water everyone on the planet would be dead in 3-5 days. Certainly they wouldn’t be forming armies. And life cannot exist without 1/3 of the sun (Rev 8:12) even for 10 minutes.

              Since I know you won’t bother to respond, I am at least hoping the readers of this page who have open minds, and have felt bothered by the dispie interpretation, can at least understand that there are other views, and it is OK for us to challenge each other.

            • Why so mad? All I asked for was PROOF that the 28 judgments fell on the earth already at some point. Show me that and you win. Fail to show me that and you don’t.

            • Pete

              Why don’t you have to prove the future fulfillment of the “28 plagues”? Oh, that’s right, conveniently you never have to prove things that haven’t happened yet. We all just have to accept what you say. Right? And why am I “so mad”? Lies and arrogance make me mad. Sorry, I kinda like the truth.

              Why can’t you answer me when Jesus was crucified per Daniel’s 70 weeks, Geoffrey? When are you going to tell us why Rev 1:1 says the things in the book would come to pass shortly, when this was written in the 1st century? I don’t have to match up anything, all I have to do is accept the plain language at face value like you dispies claim you do. God can reveal the hard things to me over time just like He reveals His word to you.

              You are allowing your interpretation of difficult passages to overrule what is plainly written.

            • It is quite obvious that the 28 judgements in Revelation are literal, physical judgements. It is equally obvious that they have never yet taken place.

            • Pete

              Geoffrey please explain how these plagues can be interpreted in the wooden, literal sense:

              Rev 8:12 “And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten…” We know that life continues on after this point on earth. Impossible. Losing 1/3 of the actual sun would kill everything on the planet in minutes.

              Rev 16:4 “And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.” Again, a massive army is formed soon after this happens. Without any fresh water on the planet, life would cease to exist within days.

              Just two examples.

              Meanwhile the Old Testament is filled with symbolic apocalyptic language that was never meant to be interpreted in the wooden literal sense. I can prove this if you really care to listen. And it’s laughable for you to say it is “quite obvious” that this language is “literal.” You and I both have a 21st century mindset and bias. We have to be very careful not to read the Bible and overlay our preconceptions onto it. It isn’t “obvious”. We should be reading scripture and comparing it with scripture. The key to Revelation is not our 21st century imagination. It’s the Old Testament.

        • Pete

          “Since you say that Daniel’s 70th Week already happened,please show us where in history all the Trumpet, Bowl, Seal and Vials judgments fell on humanity.”

          You are begging the question. You first have to prove that all the Trumpet, Bowl, Seal and Vials judgments were prophesied to happen in Daniel’s 70th week. I read Daniel 9 a lot. There isn’t anything in there about trumpets, bowls, seals, judgments or Jacob’s Trouble, or great tribulation.

          Here’s a tough one for you Geoffrey, since you are a Bible Scholar: WHEN, according to scripture, was Jesus crucified as it relates to Daniel’s 70 weeks?

    • twr

      Geoffrey,

      70 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy have been fulfilled. It is not the antichrist that stops the sacrifice, as Christianity preached. When the veil was ripped, sacrifices ceased. That was the halfway point of the 70th week. It ended when Stephen was stoned. Can you show me anywhere in the bible that says all 28 judgments happen during the time of Jacob’s trouble? According to Revelation 2:10 tribulation is ten days. Anything other than what is written is speculation and the doctrine of man. You are preaching something that is not even biblical. That is heretical doctrine. Daniel said people would go to and fro and try to figure it out. God says they has 70 weeks. Someone saying those 70 weeks stopped and picked up thousand of years later is as ludicrous as it gets. What would be the purpose? Is it because Jews didn’t believe? He didn’t expect everyone to believe. Those who did are given the chance to become sons of God. The Jews didn’t stop anything. Christ died for them as well as the gentiles. His shed blood was the only thing that could have released them from the old covenant. What would be the purpose of a remaining 70th week? That is false doctrine and you cannot scripturally prove there is a 70th week remaining. You are trying to use the word to validate false doctrine.

      • Dean

        you stated, and I quote – “Someone saying those 70 weeks stopped and picked up thousand of years later is as ludicrous as it gets. What would be the purpose?”

        You need to humbly repent because God, Abba Father, has given a huge amount of examples of this happenning throughout scripture – there will be a list of things happen, then a break of time and then they continue.

        Also don’t forget the style of writing used, Revelation from chapter 4 onwards is again written specifically to the Jewish nation. Chapter 3 ends the ‘church era’. The opening words of chapter 4 start with ‘After this’… or in Greek ‘meta tauta’ – after these things.

        Geoffrey is totally correct with what he is saying here…..

        • Pete

          Dean “God, Abba Father, has given a huge amount of examples of this happenning throughout scripture”

          Where?

          • Dean

            Read Revelation, the seven seals, trumpet, bowls etc all follow that pattern for example – a series of events then a time gap then the remainder.

            • Pete

              Dean, where is an example of God giving a specific time span, like 7 years or 70 years or whatever, where a “gap” exists in between certain years? And prove this with scripture please.

          • DeaN

            @Pete, I’m having to reply due to the fact that for some reason on your question for me there is no reply option.

            You said, “Dean, where is an example of God giving a specific time span, like 7 years or 70 years or whatever, where a “gap” exists in between certain years? And prove this with scripture please.”

            I don’t have to in any way prove anything to you, if you are misinterpreting scriptures and not understanding them properly then that is something for the Holy Spirit to help you through.

            If you think that God has to conform to you thought process you need to take that with Him, not me.

        • twr

          Dean,

          Nothing against you or Geoffrey, but he is wrong about a number of things. That is part of being human. Don’t tell me I’m wrong unless you can prove it. Geoffrey is wrong because Christianity is wrong. A child can go thru the 70 weeks and see they have been fulfilled. The kingdom is here. That is why Christ says seek the kingdom first. He is not telling you to seek something you will not see until you die. This is another lie from the counterfeit church to keep you from understanding what Christ told the Pharisees. You won’t see a physical change. You won’t be able to say it’s here or there. The kingdom is in the midst of you. I can prove the seventy weeks are complete. I can prove there is no rapture. It’s not about empty words and being a parrot of false doctrine. https://www.facebook.com/twogr/posts/1701800486724629
          https://www.facebook.com/twogr/posts/1705468143024530
          I prepared these myself. Let us be scholarly and leave deceived opinions at home. I would love to see you are Geoffrey read these and explain your position. They may be long and detailed but it’s better than putting out false doctrine.

          • Leonard

            So, if Christianity is wrong, then, I suppose The Bible must also be wrong. May I inquire as to the blasphemous screed you recommend over The Bible that will set us on your “correct” path?

            • twr

              Leonard,
              There is nothing wrong with the bible. It is the doctrine or interpretation of Christianity that is blasphemous. For example, people think they shouldn’t follow the law because it is abolished or for Jews. That is not what the bible says. Christ said he didn’t abolish the law or the prophets.

              Ephesians 2:14-15King James Version (KJV)
              14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

              15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

              Paul is saying that Christ’s sacrifice broke down the wall between Israel and gentiles. The Law what separated the two. Christ abolished the ordinances that made the commandments Law, not the commandments themselves. What were we intended to be; Christians or Israelites?

              Ephesians 2:19-20King James Version (KJV)
              19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

              20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

              The foundation of the prophets and apostles is the law that Christianity says you no longer have to keep. There is only one Law, the Law of Moses.

              Romans 6:15King James Version (KJV)
              15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

              What is the definition of sin?
              1 John 3:4King James Version (KJV)

              4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

              If there is only one Law, and Paul says God forbid we continue to sin, what did he mean? We should be following the Law. Right? There is no condemnation. We are under no obligation, but keeping the Law is our blessing.

              James 1:25King James Version (KJV)
              25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

              If Paul didn’t mean for gentiles to keep the Law, why did he teach it to gentiles?

              Acts 28:23King James Version (KJV)
              23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

              Following God’s Law is the only way to show him that you are righteous. He doesn’t care about you going to church. He never commanded it. He doesn’t care about tithing. It’s not new testament. He said take care of the less fortunate. You know what he thinks about you going to church and putting on false righteousness and not keeping his Law?

              Isaiah 29:13King James Version (KJV)
              13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

              Going to church (lip service) and paying tithes is the commandment of men. Fear of God is keeping his Law, PERIOD! I keep God’s LAW, like you should be doing. That is my blasphemous screed. Christianity is false religion. False religion is not defined by serving the right God, it is defined by how you serve him. I hope for your sake you and anyone who reads this are intelligent enough to understand this message. Just like the rapture, 70 weeks, and millennium, what is being taught by the counterfeit church is not what the bible is saying. If understanding makes me blasphemous, so be it. I won’t be lost.

              Isaiah 58:13-14King James Version (KJV)

              13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

              14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

          • Dean

            Seven mentions/ examples of the ‘rapture’ in the KJV Bible:

            • Enoch Gen 5:42; Heb 11:5
            • Elijah 2 Kgs 2:1, 11
            • Jesus Mk 16:19; Acts 1:9-11; Rev 12:5
            • Philip Acts 8:39
            • Paul 2 Cor 12:2-4
            • Body of Christ 1 Thess 4:17
            • John Rev 4:1

            The word ‘harpazo’ is used twice once for the Rev 12:5 about Christ, and in 1 Thess 4:17 about the body of Christ a.k.a the true church.

            With all respect from your posts I get the feeling that you are a JW is that true?

            • twr

              Dean,
              What happened with Enoch is not prophetic word. Let’s stick to interpreting the prophecy. The bible confirms Enoch’s transformation, but not Elijah’s. There is no Mark 16:19. Acts 1:9-11, Christ had already died, which is a key proponent of being restored. Christ is second Adam, first fruits, first to be resurrected into a glorified body. Comparing Enoch’s transformation with Christ’s resurrection is a far stretch. Acts 8:39, Phillip didn’t go anywhere. Think you need to reread and read 8:40. The spirit lead him away. 2 Corinthians, repeating a story. Was it a vision? He didn’t specify in or out of body. 1 Thes 4:17 does not speak of transformation, but transportation. The clouds is the same clouds that hovered over Israel in the exodus. What was in the cloud is in Ezekiel 1. Job 26:9 says he concealed his throne with a cloud covering. The kingdom is here. The resurrection is for those who already died in Christ and the ones martyred during tribulation. God will collect his elect and those gentiles that are worthy. Most will go into the millennium in their flesh bodies. No I’m not JW. I just read.

    • Dean

      @twr firstly if you actually read my posting I said seven mentions / examples of rapture mentioned in the Bible.

      Secondly, the kingdom is here is it? really? wow, maybe you should spending more time seeking God rather than “just reading”

      If your not a JW you seem to go along with the Hebrew Roots heresy then.

      Ask God He will show you the truth……

      • twr

        @Dean, I meet a lot of people who think they know everything, but actually know nothing. Anyone who calls themselves Christian have no place calling anyone’s beliefs heresy. Christianity is a proven heretical, paganistic, plagiarization of the Hebrew religion. Most Christians will be hunting easter eggs and observing the pagan celebration of easter on the day Rome established to worship the sun god.

        Ephesians 2:14-15 Christ abolished sin odinances from the commandments (Law of Moses) and created one man (Israel/Gentiles). Ephesians 2:19-20 God invites gentiles to become fellow citizens of Israel, built on the foundation of prophets and apostles (Law of Moses). Romans 6:1 Paul says shall we continue to sin. Absolutely not! 1 John 3:4 sin is defined as transgression of the LAW OF MOSES (only 1 law). Romans 6:12 don’t let sin continue to rule as king in your mortal body. If you don’t know the Law of Moses, you don’t know what sin is. Maybe for Christians, sin is just the ten commandments.

        We are dead to the legalistic requirements of keeping the Law because Christ purchased us with his blood. One has to be intelligent enough to separate the commandments from the Law. Christ said if you love me keep my commandments. There are 613 of them. A commandment is don’t commit adultery. The law is a person committing adultery should be stoned. Do you see the difference? That is why Christ pardoned the adulteress and said sin no more.

        If you was seeking God instead of trying to be a Christianity expert, maybe God would show you the same truth he has shown me. The kingdom of God is here. Luke 17:21. Christians are still looking for a physical kingdom. God is the God of Israel. He didn’t convert to Christianity; you did. It is one of Satan’s alternatives, like Islam. You think going to church and paying your tithes is pleasing to God because that is what the counterfeit church tells you. Isaiah 29:13 lip service but your heart is far from me. God said I will write my laws (Law of Moses) in your hearts and minds because that is the only thing of consequence. When did going to church make anyone righteous? No longer Jew or Greek when you accept Christ. Believe is a verb that requires action. It Is not the belief in existence of.

        There is no religious doctrine on the planet more heretical than Christianity. You have the nerve to believe you are the church. We know there are two churches operating and in the end time, most would be deceived by the counterfeit. That would be Christianity. If you have to go to church to praise God, you missed the message. You are supposed to be the church. Rome, whose doctrines the protestants have widely accepted is your church. Christ followed the law. He kept the Sabbath, feasts, abstained from unclean foods, ect….. How can you consider yourself to be Christ-like? Don’t lecture me on heresy. Christians are heretics. That is the mystery of lawlessness my friend. James 1:25 the law is your blessing.

        I’m not JW, Hebrew roots or anything of the sort. I read. I follow God’s divine law for man. Because of that, I know more about God than any professed Christian ever will. That is my reward for being faithful. Your truth I do not desire. Your fear of God is taught by the precepts of men. My fear of God comes from honoring the precepts of God.

        • Leonard

          TWR, I think I now understand where you’re coming from. It isn’t The Bible, but man-made religion that you’re disgusted with. I share that disgust. Just left the second church of my lifetime (SDA) for the same reason. For the first time in my life, I read the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments from page one to the end, not skipping around like a “Bible study” from chapter to verse, from book to book and Old testament to New Testament to prove a point of doxy. When you actually read it from beginning to end, you maintain the thread and the chronology of events and God’s actions and reactions to mankind. I know that the original “law”–the old covenant expired with Christ, and that the new covenant has but two commandments:
          Matthew 22: 36-40
          36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
          37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
          38 This is the first and great commandment.
          39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
          40 On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

          I don’t consider myself to be an expert, though. I’ve begun to re-read The Bible again. Still having trouble understanding which books are intended for jews and which for gentiles, and what, if any overlap there may be. SDA try to live by the old covenant, while paying lip service to Christ’s Salvation, My questioning this made be personal non-grata–my old “friends” no longer communicate with me. I showed one of the pastors this to illustrate the danger of sticking to the old covenant:

          Galatians 2:21
          21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
          Galatians 5:1
          5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

          Guess that was the last straw for them…

          • twr

            Leonard, yes I share your disgust. Don’t confuse the covenant with God’s commandments. Those commandments have been here since before the fall of man. There was man before Israel. There were sin ordinances that accompanied the commandments to nsure Israel’s compliance. When Christ died, two of the things he accomplished was abolishing sin ordinances and unifying Israle and gentiles under one law Ephesians 2:14-15, 19-20. There is no law specifically for Israel. The commandments under the old covenant never expire. Those are the commandments Christ asked us to keep, and they can be summarized by the Matthew 22 commandments.

            This is verified by Paul, when he says because we are under grace, shall we continue to sin. Shall we continue to transgress the law of Moses? This is because there is no more judgment. Do not commit adultery is the commandment. The law is getting stoned for committing adultery. That is what was removed. I’m not SDA, but they are not wrong for observing O.T. law. The law does not require us to go to church. We should assemble but that doesn’t have to be church. I don’t care how good your ministry is, money seems to be at the heart of all their doing. Sometime I just step away. God said he would write his laws upon our hearts. True universalism is the law. We don’t have to follow it. There is no judgment or condemnation. It is a blessing (James 1:25).

            • Leonard

              If God’s covenant wasn’t the 10 commandments, what are we to make of the following:

              Exodus 34:28
              28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

              The following suggests a new covenant is being made:

              Jeremiah 31:31-33
              31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
              32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord.
              33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

              Which brings us to the apparent end of THAT covenant:

              Hebrews 8:13
              13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

              Finally, the new covenant:

              Matthew 22: 36-40
              36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
              37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
              38 This is the first and great commandment.
              39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
              40 On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

              The only additional I can find:

              Acts 15:24-29
              “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”

              I realized that my tithes to SDA were being used to publish and distribute the writings of the demonic Ellen White ($3k and up per year). I hope I haven’t done more harm to others because of my contributions…

          • twr

            Leonard, there are translation issues in the bible. Some lies in our own understanding. A covenant is not commandments. The covenant is an agreement made between God and the Children of Israel. Keeping certain commandments was obviously a stipulation. The actual covenant was made with Abraham (Genesis 15) before the children of Israel and those tablets you call ten commandments even existed. However Exodus 34:28 presents itself, the covenant is not ten commandments. The laws Moses gave to the children of Israel were much more extensive than ten commandments.

            A new covenant was made. It was based on believing in the ressurection and based on faith, not works. The law did not bring us back into a pre-fall state. The sacred service and sacrifices were just temporary until the promised Messiah. Israel has a new (agreement) covenant. The gentiles were also allowed to participate in that covenant which is built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles (LAW) Ephesians 2:20

            Because of when the Law was written, there are things that seeming will not apply to us today. The purpose of the law was to ensure all people are treated fairly and taken care of. There were standards of treatment and tithes for the poor. That is why loving God and loving others summarizes what the law was all about.

            Keeping the commandments and keeping the law is a fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity. For Israel, keeping the law was their salvation. Breaking the law meant sin and death. As long as Israel kept the law portion of the commandments, they could never coexist and become one with gentiles. The law ordinances of the commandments were punitive. Do not commit adultry is the commandment. Getting stoned for committing adultery is the law. What Paul is saying in Acts 15 is we are not telling gentiles to follow a law they never have. We are not saying you have to run out and get circumcised and go around persecuting Christians like Paul. You are not religious police for God. There is no condemnation. That is why Paul said let no man judge you in meat. That is why Christ sent the adulteress away and said sin no more. He is the only judge. That is the law of the commandments. You don’t have to keep them. God has said he will bless you for keeping them (James 1:25).

        • Dean

          You know absolutely nothing about me so why be so patronizing.

          Please do not, in your arrogance and ignorance, try to put forth a list of things that you think I do or may adhere to.

          I am so pleased for you, that you tell yourself, that you know more about God than any professed Christian (follower of Christ) ever will – Wow, so I guess that the likes of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul must really be waiting to learn from you then (I don’t think so……)

          You do, however, state that you read – so read this, especially verses 10 & 11:

          Titus 3:8-11

          8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

          9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

          10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

          11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

          • twr

            Dean, nobody is patronizing you. I’m just being honest. In your arrogance and ignorance you keep trying to associate what you consider heretical sects because of my views. There is one God, and on Bible so there should be similarities in all legitimate forms of worship. Christian is only used three times in the whole bible, and not until Acts. Comparing myself with Christians today is not comparable to the Hebrew Israelites who wrote the bible.

            As far as heresy, I stand by my statement that Christianity is the most heretical and dangerous sect in existence. Christianity has been used to justify the slaughter and mass genocide of billions all over the world. Christianity has been used to justify murder, rape, slavery and the pillaging of natural resources of almost every nation in the world. The U.S. uses Christianity to continue to justify its reign of terror around the world. As a Christian nation, the U.S. continues to be the most fundamentally racist nation in the world with groups like the KKK actively and visibly spreading its message of hate. That is Christianity.

            Christians don’t understand the law. You pick out one verse that you think supports your false premise. What about Christ saying he did not come to abolish the law or the prophets? There seems to be confusion about what the law truly is. I tried to clarify that for you. Christ abolished the law of commandments (Ephesians 2:14-15), not the commandments themselves. If someone believes in the law for their salvation, they are condemned. That was the original covenant. Keeping the law is about enforcement of the law and Israel acted like a religious police force. They, including Paul went around persecuting those who did not follow the law. That is what was done away with. It doesn’t mean we no longer pay attention to God’s commandments. That is why Paul asked should we continue to sin. Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). There is only one law. A Christian’s lack of intelligence and comprehension on the matter does not make me arrogant or heretical. Christianity is a fundamentally flawed knock off of the Hebrew faith. It is a cheap copy designed to give man the power of God on earth. Rome crucified Peter for preaching the gospel and three centuries later retroactively made him the first Pope of Rome so they could force their false religion on the world. They had to claim authority from the Hebrew for it to be legitimate. Christians need to wake up and try to understand the fundamentals of the people that actually wrote the book and not the errant translation. That is why you have so many religions and denominations. A religion that embraces God’s commandments would be unified fundamentally. Christianity has no direction so they focus on outward displays.

            • Dean

              What you are rambling on about is the roman catholic church they are the ones, in particular the popes, that has committed genocide.

              No true born again Christian – a true follower of Christ, would ever enlist in to any military any where in the world.

              You bark on about the US as though I’m an American – praise God that I am not.

              Kingdom Now theology is complete heresy – end of !

            • Your either a lying fool or deranged.
              Even the communists and Islam put together have killed only under 500 million human beings; 270 and 200+ in that order.
              “Billions” killed by Christians??? Absolutely ridiculous to say…
              Maybe the Roman Ca-tholic geo-poitical economic control system has killed 100 of thousands- they were not followers of Christ.
              Martin Luther brought true faith back to mankind by escaping thdm and promoting all to learn to read and widely despense Scripture.
              Thanks to Guttenberg-!
              Protest-ants that are true believers have fought in wars but not in the name of Christ- but to stop evil men from genocide ~!

    • James Staten

      Geoffrey, I just wanted to take a minute and thank you for the web-site, and give some ramblings from an old man. There is a saying that if you are receiving the flak then you must be over the sight. This particular article “Putting the Body of Christ into the Time of Jacob’s Troubles” it seems to a certain degree has turned into a math class? The continual discussion is it seven year, no it’s three and 1/2 years, no it’s neither. I graduated from one of the finest engineering schools in the country, and I have told people for years that if I had been any good at math I would have been an engineer!!!! I had a friend a few years back that is along the lines of putting the Body of Christ into the Tribulation. I asked him, how many people does the Apostle Paul address in 1 Corinthians 10:32? He said Two. Needless to say the conversation went down hill from there. Why does that matter? I believe that most come to your web-site because they get it. I know that I am repeating myself, but Paul addresses “Three” groups in 1 Corinthians 10:32. The Apostle Paul is the only writer in scripture to use the term the Body of Christ. Let’s see a Jew named Saul is on the road to Damascus, and the Lord Jesus Christ stops him in his tracks. Eventually carries him to the backside of the desert and gives him individual tutoring for approximately three years. The Risen Savior from glory reveals “Mysteries” to Paul, which had never been before revealed to any man. This new information or secrets were given specifically to Paul. There are numerous mysteries given to him that the Lord Jesus never revealed in His earthly ministry. If one accepts that Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews then he wrote 51% of the NT. During this dispensation of Grace, the Body of Christ looks to the Apostle Paul for our doctrine. I am getting long winded and I will try to bring it to a close. Someone mentioned yesterday about the elect in scripture? I see where in Isaiah 45:4 that Jacob/Israel is called my elect. Yet the Apostle Paul addresses the Body of Christ as God’s elect in Romans 8:33. Paul writes only to the Believer..the Body of Christ. A New Creation, composed of Jews and Gentiles during this dispensation of Grace. Paul speaks of the “Blinding of Israel” another of those mysteries, until the fullness of the gentiles be come in. Why can people not see that if one is to believe Paul the Lord isn’t through with Israel? His Church is being built, the Body of Christ. If one is to believe Paul then Israel and the Body of Christ are not the same. So there are three groups of people in the world today. Jews, Gentiles and the Body of Christ. The Catching Away of the Body, another of those mysteries which we so eagerly look, then leaves the Jews and the Gentiles. Jacob, Israel and the Jew for the Time of Jacob’s Troubles. I appreciate your teaching on the Pauline Epistles, and if I might chase another rabbit for a moment. I don’t believe that Paul ever addresses the Lord Jesus as King over the Body of Christ? He I believe mentions Him as the King overall but we are His Body. The Jews were promised a Kingdom, a literal Kingdom with Land Boundaries. A People, a Land, and what does a Kingdom need a King. Soon Israel will no longer be the tail, but the Head of the Nations with the Lord Jesus reigning from Jerusalem overall the nations for a thousand years. We dispensationalist may not have all the answers, but we can see the puzzle pieces coming together…..Keep Looking Up, James

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    • Dick Perlas

      HOW IN THE WORLD DOES THIS APPLY TO THE BODY OF CHRIST??

      To finish the transgression? – Christ said that it’s ALREADY FINISHED! (John 19:30 KJV)
      To make an end of sins? – Christ was ALREADY made sin FOR US! (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV)
      To make reconciliation for iniquity? – We’ve ALREADY been reconciled! (2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV)
      To bring in everlasting righteousness? – We ALREADY possess God’s righteousness! (Romans 3:21-22 KJV
      To seal up the vision and prophecy? – We’re SEALED! (Ephesians 4:30 KJV)
      To anoint the most Holy? – We’ve ALREADY been anointed and we’re bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh! Also, we are in Heaven worshipping the Lord BEFORE the anti-christ even hits the scene! (1 John 2:27/ Revelation 5:9-10 KJV)

      Looks like Bro. you missed important points here:
      lease study the Word of God again. You quoted the verses but mis applied in your teaching. Those above verses deserve scrutiny.
      Do you observe the 7th day Sabbath that you claim to have been sealed? Where did you get your RUPTURE theory. REPENT! Your teaching can mislead the readers to Hell!

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    • Wonder what the 10’s and 10’s of thousands of MiddleEastern Christians being tortured, raped, enslaved and families murdered before their eyes as well as those freezing, baking and dying of thirst and hunger this past 3yrs think of when the tribulation will start ~???

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    • Pingback: The Hidden References to the Mark of the Beast Found in the Book of James | Untruth()

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