The Timing Of The Pretribulation Rapture Of The Church As Found In The Song Of Solomon

God paints us a beautiful type picture in the love song of Solomon, of the coming glorious future of the blood-washed, born again believers in the matchless Bridegroom Jesus Christ when we will be called to 'come away' with Him. Are you ready for what comes next?
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The Song of Solomon says that when the Rapture of the Church takes place, Israel will already have been regathered back into their land (May 14, 1948)

“The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice. My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.” Song Of Solomon 2:8-10 (KJV)

All through the Bible, God uses many things to paint pictures of coming events, this is known as ‘typology’. Merriam-Webster defines typology as “a doctrine of theological types; especially :  one holding that things in Christian belief are prefigured or symbolized by things in the Old Testament”. For example, when Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, it was a type of the suffering of Jesus and His payment at Calvary on the Cross.

“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Matthew 12:40 (KJV)

Yes, the actual Jonah was really in the belly of an actual whale for 72 hours, but at the same time it was a type picture of a future event of prophecy. This is one of the things that Jesus is confirming in the above passage. God uses typology to a very high degree in the Old Testament to illustrate future, prophetical events.

Another great Old Testament type in the Bible is found in Genesis. The Bible tells us of a man called Enoch, a gentile who was the great grandfather to Noah. Enoch lived for 365 years, which just coincidentally matches the 365 days of the gentile calendar (the Hebrew calendar has 360 days). The Bible says that Enoch began walking with God after the birth of his son Methuselah, the oldest living man in the Bible. And then something amazing happened, here it is:

“And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” Genesis 5:22-24 (KJV)

See what we have here? It’s a type picture of the Rapture of the Church. Enoch was a gentile believer in God, had fellowship with Him and ‘walked with Him’. Then, at some point in that walk, God took him home to Heaven literally and physically without ever having to die first. But that’s not all. Enoch’s rapture happens shortly before the tribulation of the flood of Noah destroys the Earth. Do you get that? Enoch is raptured out before the flood which destroyed the world. The apostle Paul teaches in the New Testament that the Church will be raptured out before the time of Jacob’s trouble which will cause global death, misery and destruction.

Now that you have a good grasp of what typology in the Bible is, let’s look at an amazing type picture in the Song of Solomon on the timing of the Rapture of the Church

In the second chapter of the Song of Solomon, God paints us a picture of the Rapture of the Church. Not only that, He tells us what time of the year that the Rapture will likely take place. In verses 8 and 9, we see Jesus looking down from the windows of Heaven at His beloved.

“The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.” Solomon 2:8,9 (KJV)

In the New Testament, when the apostle Stephen was being stoned to death, he looked up and what did he see? He saw the ‘windows of Heaven opened’ and Jesus getting ready to return in the Second Coming.

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” Acts 7:55,56 (KJV)

In the book of Revelation, the ‘window of Heaven’ opens two times. Once in a type picture of the Rapture of the Church in chapter 4:1,2, and again in chapter 19:11-14 at the Second Coming where we return with Him at the Battle of Armageddon. In Song of Solomon 2, we see Jesus ‘looking through the lattice’ at His beloved Bride the Church. But notice that He calls for Her to ‘rise up’ to where He is and to ‘come away’ with Him. Now where in the New Testament do we hear anything resembling that? Right here:

“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Revelation 4:1 (KJV)

The Pretribulation Rapture is connected with the Feast of Firstfruits which takes place in the Spring

Her beloved is calling for her to rise up and out to be with Him. Not only that, we see the likely timing of the Rapture as given in the context. It happens after the Winter is gone, and glorious Spring has come where new life once again fills the Earth. Some will say that it is not Spring everywhere around the world at the same time. This is true, but God is not concerned with the whole world. Bible prophecy and it’s fulfillment centers around His Holy land of Israel, and it’s capital city of Jerusalem in particular.

“For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;” Song of Solomon 2:11,12 (KJV)

Many Bible scholars have tried to set the timing of the Rapture of the Church with the Feast of Trumpets because a trumpet-like Voice heralds the Rapture. But it is much more likely and seems to be indicated in the passage that the Rapture will align with the Feast of Firstfruits which takes place in the Spring. Clearly that is what’s happening in Song of Solomon 2.

Lastly, the Song of Solomon says that when the Rapture of the Church takes place, Israel will already have been regathered back into their land (May 14, 1948). Compare the passage with what Jesus in Matthew 24 said would take place, and we have harmony.

“The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.” Song of Solomon 2:13 (KJV)

“Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.” Matthew 24:32,33 (KJV)

Remember that the Day of the Lord, while being an actual Day of His return, is also a period of time covering just over 1,000 years. The time period of the Day of the Lord starts with the Rapture of the Church first, then kicks off the time of Jacob’s trouble, leads into the Battle of Armageddon where we return with Jesus on white horses (that’s the singular Day), starts the 1,000 Reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem, then the Battle of Gog and Magog, the Great White Throne Judgment, and then….Eternity!

I hope you have enjoyed this brief snapshot of types in the Bible. The Pretribulation Rapture is shown in Song of Solomon, but it’s hidden, it’s a ‘mystery’, which would not be made known until the apostle Paul was called out.

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 (KJV)

God paints us a beautiful type picture in the love song of Solomon, of the coming glorious future for the blood-washed, born again believers in the matchless Bridegroom Jesus Christ when we will be called to ‘come away’ with Him.

Are you ready for what comes next? I am.

 

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • Truth

    Acts 2:37-38

    37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    • Righteously Dividing The Enemy
      http://www.persecution.com

      And The Lord Himself Shall Ascend
      And I heard A Voice Like A Trump Saying, Come Up Hither
      http://www.lordurusalem.blogspot.com

      -The great gathering of saints which was demonstrated to me 1986 and periodically for these 30 years gone into prediction happen the beginning of spring, so I already knew the answer to this mystery. I learn only recently according to bible scholars so did three of the greatest deliverances recorded biblically happen the season of spring,(surely meaning beginning a new, Apb), that of Noah's Ark resting, Abib, April 17th. That of the Crossing Of the Red Sea, Abib/April 17th and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, Abib/April, 17th, remember, I was commanded to "Mark 17 and 7," 2003, see Noah's Ark. It would then solve the mystery of such extraordinary events as this that Holy Spirts would demonstrate to me, Jesus commissioning me three times to come to Him, the taking away, out of the Bride, and the greatest of divine deliverances of them all, would then be doing the beginning of spring.

      -Holy scripture only tell us no man or angel know the specific day or the hour, though I point out here, this was before Christ’s Cross/Resurrection and before revealing to John His, Revelations. I told someone lately how we may not know the day or hour, but Jesus did tell us a season, Spring, using the fig tree and it’s tender leaves as an example and he seriously doubted it. I’ve prophesied how doing the last thirty years Holy Spirits have demonstrated to me by every spiritual gifts, unto visitations to heaven and heaven visiting me every form of this blessed events. That’s right up to us staying in the heavens until all are collected and we like God could see and examine from their all inconceivable horrors mightily targeting the earth, like nuclear bombs being launched. Just remember Jesus’ Blood, promises and prophecies and the Redeemed faithfulness therein is the only Blessed Grace causing Saints to be worthy to escape all these things.
      When Jesus of resurrection appeared to me spring of 1986, I was a babe in Christ and little knew what it was I was seeing, experiencing, why me, what was this? HE stayed in heavens, with huge wings to each of His, sides, arms stretched toward me, saying COME! Something even then I knew wouldn’t be easy to explain, Christ Jesus having wings, though now, the wings are for healing described one prophet, and for another, it’s the sun’s ray spreading wide that look like wings. As so He, Jesus is described as the Sun of Righteousness rising/arriving with healing in His wings, see Malachi 4:2, thus it would seem I was seeing the Jesus described by the prophet Malachi. All with the most recent prophecy concerning Christ reappearing and we gathering unto Him, came along side of my bed, as a vision, the form of text messages, again after thirty years of showing and telling me this. They all read and I repeat, again arriving and spreading like text messages, “Jesus Is Coming, Jesus Is On The Way here,” 02/17/2015, Awake! Be aware as God Himself, Apb, The RAM, http://www.thefourthofthegodhead15.blogspot.com http://www.2016beedeborah.blogspot.com

    • Geoffrey;
      Here is a look at the allegory of Christ’s coming for the Bride from Song of Solomon from the historic and proper view of Christ’s Coming.

      https://pbenson.me/2016/04/05/thy-kingdom-come/

      Blessings upon all who carry forth the good news of the Gospel.
      Paul

  • top

    I believe you are a true man of God, but I just can’t understand how you could be so blinded to the real timing of the Rapture and “eternal security” issues. The Rapture is not pre, mid or post trib. You mentioned how God secured Noah just before the flood came. Jesus will Rapture the saved just before He pours His wrath upon this world so the Rapture is PRE-WRATH. There is good teaching available to those who truly want to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD.

    • Jesus says that there will be “great tribulation”, and Revelation says there are those that come out of “great tribulation”, but that is not the name for that event. The Bible says it is called the “time of Jacob’s trouble”.

      “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

      All of it is focused on the Jews, from the non-wrath beginning where the Jews are fooled in following the Antichrist, to the pouring out of God’s wrath where they are forced to flee to the Red Rock City of Selah Petra. All of it focused on the Jews.

      We rightly divide so as not to confuse the Church and Israel, which are separate.

      • Pete

        “We rightly divide so as not to confuse the Church and Israel, which are separate.” This is nonsense, it’s like saying I try not to confuse my children with my family. Arrogant dispies think nobody read the Bible correctly until John Darby came along in the 1830s.

        • I have never read anything by Darby, no need to. My friends Paul and John teach me about the Pretribulation Rapture 🙂

          • Pete

            Exactly, you don’t need to read Darby. You just need to be taught Darby, which is where the teaching that the church and Israel are separate people of God.

            God has one people, and one only – always has. Darby invented the entire idea of separate people and separate plans. Whether you realize it or not, that’s where it came from. I bet you didn’t pick up the bible one day and figure that out on your own. Nor did you read and figure out the pre-trib rapture. Somebody taught it to you. They had to. It isn’t really in there. And that’s why Bible teachers like you have to spend hours upon hours teaching this stuff: it’s complicated. It’s pretty tough coming up with more “evidence” of the pre-trib rapture, isn’t it?

            “Rightly dividing” means to “correctly interpret.” Not divide up scripture into buckets you define as the church, Israel and Gentiles.

          • Gary

            Great article! God is not a wife beater so why should the church go through the tribulation if we are his bride. Some say the church needs to suffer in the tribulation to be made pure since Jesus is coming for a bride without ‘spot or wrinkle’. They are then saying the the blood of Jesus on the cross wasn’t sufficient to save and purify his bride.

        • James Staten

          Pete, Your last comment didn’t have a reply tag, so I thought I would comment here. This may seem like a trick question, but how many people groups does the Apostle Paul address in 1st Corinthians 10:32? And why in dispensational teaching particularly since I believe Paul mentions dispensation four times, does it matter?

          • Pete

            Hi James, Paul speaks of 3 groups – Jews, Gentiles, and the church of God. I assume you would agree that he is referring to unsaved Jews and Gentiles.

        • Sola scriptura

          the pre trib rapture has been around since the beginning of Christianity:

          http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

          • Pete

            Sola scriptura, I’m not talking about the pre-trib rapture, I am talking about modern dispensationalism which originated with John Nelson Darby in the 1800s. This is the teaching that says we are now in a “church age” that will end at the rapture, after which a final 7 year period of time will occur and God will turn back to national ethnic Israel as His focus and people. According to this theory there has been a 2000 year gap between Daniel’s 69th and 70th weeks. According to this theory Jesus originally came to earth to reign on a physical throne in Jerusalem, but since the Jews rejected him, God stopped dealing with them and instead turned to building His church.

          • Jim Black

            Hello Sola,

            The Apostles in their Constitutions and Didache record that the resurrection of the righteous dead FROM ALL AGES will rise “AFTER the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29) See the Didache 16:8 and the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book 7, Sect 2, xxxii and Book V, Sect. 1, vii

          • Catholic writings…..

          • Jim Black

            Please show me anything that is not consistent with scripture.

        • Edwitness

          Pete,
          Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God the creator? The Everlasting Father? The Mighty God? Isaiah 9:6

          • Louise

            Edwitness Jesus Christ is not God at all. Read correctly the Bible. Nowhere does it say he is. If he were then why doesn’t he know the date while the Bible says it’s only God? What a false doctrine. So many verses that says he’s not God.

          • Emery

            The only Bible writer to use the word “antichrist” is the apostle John. How did he describe the antichrist? Note these words in the first letter bearing his name: “Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort . . . Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.”—1 John 2:18, 19, 22.
            What do we learn from those words? John mentioned “many antichrists,” indicating that the antichrist is, not an individual, but a collective term. People or organizations making up the antichrist spread lies, deny that Jesus is the Christ, or the Messiah, and try to distort the relationship between God and His Son, Jesus Christ. Those who make up the antichrist claim to be Christ or his representatives, but since “they went out from us,” they deviated from true Bible teachings. Furthermore, this group was present at the time when John wrote his letter, in “the last hour,” presumably the end of the time of the apostles.
            What else did John write regarding the antichrist? Speaking about false prophets, he warned: “Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God. But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.” (1 John 4:2, 3) Then, in his second letter, John reiterated this point: “Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7) Clearly, John understood the antichrist to be all who deliberately spread religious deception about Jesus Christ and Jesus’ teachings.

            Long before John wrote about such religious deceivers, Jesus Christ advised his followers: “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.” (Matthew 7:15) The apostle Paul likewise warned Christians in Thessalonica: “Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it [the day of Jehovah] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.”—2 Thessalonians 2:3.
            Hence, in the first century, false prophets and apostates were already at work, endeavoring to weaken the Christian congregation. All those involved in spreading lies and religious deception about Jesus Christ and his teachings were included in John’s term “antichrist.” Jehovah’s view of them was revealed when Paul described them as “the son of destruction.”

            What about today? People and organizations making up the antichrist still oppose Christ and his teachings. They deliberately spread lies and deceptions with the intent of confusing the identity of the Father, Jehovah God, and of His Son, Jesus Christ. We have good reason to beware of such religious deceptions. Let us look at two examples.
            For centuries, the churches propagated the doctrine of the Trinity, claiming that the Father and the Son are part of the same entity. The antichrist thus shrouds in mystery the identity of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. This mystery hinders sincere people from imitating Jesus Christ and drawing close to God, as the Bible encourages them to.—1 Corinthians 11:1; James 4:8.
            The churches add to the confusion by promoting the use of Bible translations that omit God’s personal name, Jehovah, from the text. They do this despite the fact that the name Jehovah occurs some 7,000 times in the original text of the Bible. The result? The identity of the true God becomes even more shrouded in mystery.
            On the other hand, knowing God’s name, Jehovah, has helped many honesthearted worshippers to draw closer to God.

      • Peggy

        There are no more difference in Jew nor gentile, male nor female, we are all the children of the promise who believe in Jesus Christ. Twice the Jews were mentioned in the book of revelations and neither time did Jesus speak in their favor. The tribulation is for the whole world, for all. Then, before God’s wrath upon the ungodly and unrighteous, after the tribulation, Jesus will come with His angels and separate the wheat from the tares.

    • Cooleemee Edd

      Hey, Top,

      You’re right, of course, but the Tribulation and “Wrath” are about the same to me…call me simple. We’re all in the same boat if we are Followers of Jesus, and as that is the case, we can disagree on terminology and still be Brothers and Sisters. As long as we don’t become “date setters,” I think that we’re OK! Even for that 15% (that’s what I’ve heard) who call themselves “Post-Trib,” (which would equate in my mind to “Post-Wrath” also), I’m satisfied that they will be pleasantly surprised when Jesus comes for all of us earlier than they expected. One of my Post-Trib friends tells me that thinking Pre-Trib is to offer people a “fire escape” after the rest of us are gone, and that this is a “trick of Satan” to make people think that there is a way out at the very last moment. Well, I certainly don’t agree with his notion…people who become Believers during the Great Tribulation will have to “go through fire” themselves, and that’s no “fire escape” at all in my opinion. God Bless You, Brother!

  • Ralph McCrum

    Really Good Read !!

    • Thank you! Please share it with your friends 🙂

      • Leigh

        Loved this article Brother Geoffrey! Our Lord is coming soon, all the post/mid tribbers, are going to be so pleasantly surprised (If they are truly born again) when they hear their names been called up and they realize that Jesus loved them enough to spare them from the worst time in Human history!

        • jim black

          Hi Leigh,

          Please Google “didache” (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles) and see Chap. 16:8. They record the dead in Christ being raised AFTER the signs recorded in Matt.24:30,31. Pre trib rapture is a false teaching and is not supported by scripture or the didache.

          • Then you do not believe the teachings of Apostle Paul, that Jesus gave directly to him. Pre-tribulation catching away is mentioned in many places in the Bible if you allow the Holy Spirit to show you.

          • Jim Black

            Thank you David. There is no contradiction or conflict between the Holy Spirit and what scripture reveals. Please show me where scripture clearly says that the church will be taken up before Daniel’s 70th week. Did you google the didache (16:8) and see where the apostles (including Paul) say that the dead in Christ will rise AFTER the signs in Matt. 24:30,31? What did you discover?

            The same message is recorded in The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book VII, Sect. II, xxxii. Check it out and “see if it isn’t so.”

          • Jim Black

            The Apostles also recorded that the righteous dead from the beginning of the world will be raised in a single resurrection which occurs at the second coming. In other words, there are no “stages” of the resurrection, Just Christ the first fruits then those who belong to Him at His second coming (1 Cor. 15:22,23)

          • In my 26 years of being saved, I have NEVER seen someone that tries to tear down the DOCTRINE of the Pretrib Rapture and hates it as much as you do. Steven Anderson would be proud to have you in his miserable little church.

          • Edwitness

            Jim Black,
            Tell me then, what happened to those who came up from the grave when Jesus was raised from the dead? Resurrection….or something else?

          • Jim Black

            Brother Geoff,

            I don’t “hate” pre trib stuff. When you have a response to what the Apostles say in their Constitutions and Didache, as I have posted here many times, and other than your belief that they are only “catholic musings,” then we can have a serious and meaningful discussion. Time for some intellectual honesty, don’t you think? 🙂

          • I do not put ANY book, written AFTER the time of the apostles and AFTER the end of Revelation, in any esteem or any regard. For anyone interested in reading about the history of this Catholic book, written by Catholics, here’s the link. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm

            The Didache is NOT a Christian book, it is a Catholic, apostate fantasy….

          • And….I find it interesting that your beloved Didache clearly states that at the Second Coming, the SAINTS of Jesus are RETURNING WITH HIM.

            “All of humanity shall come to the fire of testing, and many will fall and perish. But all who endure in their faith shall be saved from the Curse. Then the signs of the truth will appear: firstly a rift in the heavens, then the sound of a trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead. But not all will rise, because, as it is said, ‘The Lord shall come, and all his saints with him’. Then the world will see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.”

            Hmmm…turns out your Didache folks are Pretrib after all. How’s that for “intellectual honesty”?

          • Jim Black

            “Jim Black,
            Tell me then, what happened to those who came up from the grave when Jesus was raised from the dead? Resurrection….or something else?”

            Scripture doesn’t say that these saints were taken up as though it was a resurrection as Paul describes in his letters. God raised them up without saying why or what happened to them afterwards. I think they still died a natural death and will rise to receive their new bodies in the resurrection as the Apostles record in scripture and their Constitutions.

            All of you need to think about what the Apostles recorded in their Constitutions and Didache, both of which record the resurrection of the dead in Christ, “AFTER the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29)

          • Jim Black

            I should have mentioned the raising of Lazarus. He was not taken up to heaven but continued to live out the rest of his life on earth. He to will rise with the rest when Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation.

          • Edwitness

            Jim Black,
            Don’t forget Enoch and Elijah 🙂
            God pretty much does what He wants to, huh?

          • Jim Black

            Enoch and Elijah were taken up without dying, but this doesn’t mean they formed part of the resurrection Paul writes about. I think they will be the two witnesses John writes about in the Revelation.

            I’m still trying to get someone to Google the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles and the Didache so they can see where they record the resurrection of the dead “AFTER” the signs recorded in Matt. 24:29-31. The Constitutions can be read on the “Advent” website.

            There’s another big error in the pre trib catalogue of proofs for a pre trib rapture. It is that the rapture is “imminent and can happen at any moment.” Think about that. Imminency of a known event means that it is about to happen, not at some point way into the future as pre trib theology teaches. Pre tribs need to look up the definition of imminent. The center of Hurricane Sandy was “imminent” about an hour before it hit land, not when it was still forming out in the Atlantic. The same principle applies to the rapture. The imminent return of Jesus for His bride is seen in Luke 21:28, which is “After the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29) Pre trib theology cannot get around this.

            Lord bless

          • The Didache is a CATHOLIC book and as such is MEANINGLESS from a Biblical perspective. The only way Catholicism can exist is in the pages of the writings of the “holy fathers” who lived after the apostles and outside of the Bible. The Vatican system – detailed in Revelation 17 and 18 – is going to be DESTROYED by God. Wiped out. It is evil and it is an abomination, and that includes ALL it’s “holy writings”.

          • Emery

            Geoffrey;
            I NEVER thought I would agree with you on anything, but your post about the Didache is something I agree with almost completely. Yes, they will be destroyed in the tribulation. In fact, the U.N. and Obama have been working for several years now on how to accomplish the elimination of any religion claiming to be Christian.

          • Jim Black

            Geoffrey writes:
            “And….I find it interesting that your beloved Didache clearly states that at the Second Coming, the SAINTS of Jesus are RETURNING WITH HIM.

            “All of humanity shall come to the fire of testing, and many will fall and perish. But all who endure in their faith shall be saved from the Curse. Then the signs of the truth will appear: firstly a rift in the heavens, then the sound of a trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead. But not all will rise, because, as it is said, ‘The Lord shall come, and all his saints with him’. Then the world will see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.”

            Hmmm…turns out your Didache folks are Pretrib after all. How’s that for “intellectual honesty”?

            JB – So NOW you believe the Didache when it suits your pre trib theology:) Of course Jesus will come with all the saints, right after he raptures them. We call it the post tribulation rapture/coming which the same Apostles record in their Constitutions. By the way, I have yet to find any websites that reject the Apostles Constitutions and Didache as spurious. See if you can find one. It’s still time for intellectual honesty.

            But you did notice that the resurrection of the dead will happen AFTER heaven opens and the trumpet sounds. Heaven opening is seen in Rev. 6:14 and Rev. 19:11. Do you dispute these scriptures? If so, with what scriptures?

            ONe other thing. You say that you reject all other books, writings, etc. that comment on the scriptures. KJV 1611 sola scriptura!!!! Does this mean you reject writings by other men that agree with what is recorded in the KJV?

          • Edwitness

            Jim black,
            Show me where the scripture says that a pre, mid, or post position makes one lukewarm? One has nothing to do with the other. Trust in Christ alone for everything in these last days is all that is needed.

        • Jim Black

          Geoffrey writes:

          The Didache is a CATHOLIC book and as such is MEANINGLESS from a Biblical perspective. The only way Catholicism can exist is in the pages of the writings of the “holy fathers” who lived after the apostles and outside of the Bible. The Vatican system – detailed in Revelation 17 and 18 – is going to be DESTROYED by God. Wiped out. It is evil and it is an abomination, and that includes ALL it’s “holy writings”.

          JB: How do I convince you that Roman catholics had nothing to do with the Didache. Just because it may appear on catholic websites doesn’t mean they wrote it. They are the writings of the Apostles, not the RCC which is guided by satan. You must show all of us here that what the didache says was written by catholics, or admit they are genuine apostolic writings.

          Did you not want to comment on “imminency?”

          Lord bless

          • Jim Black

            Greetings Geoff,

            You say that the Didache is a “catholic” book. As such, do you know who the catholics were that wrote it and when?

      • Edwitness

        Thanks Geoffrey for your “intellectual honesty” regarding the Catholic didache. 🙂 Seems Jim would have looked that one up before going off like he did.
        Blessings:-}

        • Jim Black

          Please refer to my response to Geoff and share any other comments.

          I’m still hoping that you or some others might respond to my comments on “imminency.” 🙂
          An “imminent” pre trib rapture is IMPOSSIBLE for the reasons stated. Check it out and share your thoughts.

          • Jim Black;
            Here’s a Blog post where I prove the doctrine of the ‘Imminent’ coming of Christ is a false teaching and also an impossibility. Long story short: Peter was prophesied (by the Lord Jesus) to die an old man, The resurrection / catching away could not happen while peter was still alive. Peter AND Paul died in the Neroniam purge A.D. 67 – 68. The resurrection / catching away was not possible during the ministry of the Apostle Paul! He was NOT shown that it was then imminent by God. He did NOT teach it to his followers or he would have been a false teacher. He did NOT write in his letters something not possible at that time.

            https://pbenson.me/2016/05/06/bible-proof-the-rapture-theory-is-false/

            I ask all you pre-trib rapture believers this question: When did the rapture BECOME imminent? The honest answer to this question destroys the rapture theory!
            May the Lord grant peace and grace to all who love his truth;
            Paul
            paulbenson.me

          • jim black

            Excellent points, Paul. We could also use Jesus’ prophecy to Paul about going to Rome (Acts 23:11). Rapture could not have happened before then which was about 15 years. Hope we can get some responses or rebuttals backed by scripture.

  • John 4-35 (1599 Geneva Bible- pre-cursor to the King James of 1611)
    (Jesus said) Say not ye, there are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? Behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes and look on the regions; for they are white already to harvest.

  • Amy

    This article was again comfort to me to hang in here until the day comes. I grow so weary with the way the world is going. Maybe this year will be the year and before the elections.

    • Do more than just “hang in there”…get something done for the Lord before He comes to get us! Witness to your friends, hand out gospel tracts….labor while it is still day!

      • Susan johnson

        NTEB Gospel Tracts…

        They are amazing….and they are well-received!

        Thank You to Mr. Grider and his Evangelistic team…

  • Todd

    The time period of the day of Christ starts with the rapture of the church,(2Thes.2:2), I thought the time period of the day of the Lord is always connected to the second coming or the Millennium, when He comes to take His throne, correct me if I’m wrong brother Grider, keep up the good work.

  • Leonard belisle

    Most anti-pretrib rapture believers arrogantly ask for ONE scriptural verse that confirms a PRE-Trib Rapture. Dr. Thomas Ice (including Tim LaHaye and other experts) say 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is proof positive and I agree. Check out Dr. Ice’s thesis here:
    http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-TheRapturein2Thessal.pdf

    MARANATHA!

    • Pam

      I’ve read it Leonard on Bible Prophecy Blog. It’s right on point.

    • tiptopsaidhe

      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
      2Th 2:4 Who opposes, and exalts himself above, all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he, as God, sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
      2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
      2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
      2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.

      In v4, Paul tells the Thessalonians the son of perdition is already sitting in the temple. That makes him a high priest. In v6&7, Paul says that the man of sin is already at work, and that the Holy Spirit is restraining him.

      If the man of sin is still yet to come along, 2000 or more years later, why would the Holy Spirit be needed to restrain him at the time Paul wrote to the Thessalonians? Why would the Holy Spirit be needed to restrain a person who wasn’t born? If the man of sin wasn’t already at work, why would Paul tell them that he was?

    • ben starcheko

      Leonard, please explain to me how Verse 3 is proof positive in context to verses 1 and 2……….

    • Leonard

      No disrespect, bro, but how does
      2 Thessalonians 2:3)

      3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      Prove pre or post rapture? And how are we to interpret this:

      2 Thessalonians 2:8,9

      8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

      9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    • Leonard;
      Hello Brother. We are supposed to believe the passage should read ‘The coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him will not happen until the rapture happens first?’ Might want to run that one by an English teacher. That notion of Ice and LaHaye is so ridiculous I am actually embarrassed for them both!
      Also it clearly says in 1Cor. 15:21-23 our gathering together unto Christ takes place at his coming /Parousia. 2 Thess 2: 8says the coming / Parousia destroys the Antichrist at the end of his 42 month reign. How could this be if the coming /Parousia of Christ and our gathering together unto him is an event that takes place seven years earlier? It DOES NOT, we will be gathered together unto Christ at the Second Coming. Anything else is a lie and a hoax.
      Blessings
      Paul
      http://www.paulbenson.me

      • Emery

        Paul;
        Parousia means presence, not coming.

        • Pete

          Emery FTR I don’t believe in a pre or post-trib rapture, I am post-mill. I don’t believe in a coming Great Tribulation at the end of the world nor do I think believers fly off to heaven to watch earth burn from the balcony. I believe Jesus Christ already won the battles. I believe His death, resurrection and ascension were His culminating work. He reigns today, right now, over the whole universe and heaven and He is in the process of putting all of His enemies down. The last enemy is death.

  • FrancesEve Drake

    I thoroughly enjoyed that Geoffrey. There are so many people out there simply putting FEAR into Christian’s hearts about having to go through the tribulation. We have that GLORIOUS HOPE, PRAISE GOD. I have had so many people try to discourage or encourage me to their way of thinking but my thinking is led by the Holy Spirit who leads me into all Truth. One slight change I may have made: I believe that the Gog Magog war comes before Armageddon. More than likely just at the beginning of Jacob’s Trouble.

    • The Gog-Magog war happens in Revelation 20, after the 1,000 Year Reign.

      “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.” Revelation 20:7,8 (KJV)

      Thanks for writing! 🙂

      • Jim Black

        Brother Geoff,

        God is going to destroy the nations (God, magog, et al) that come against Israel in the last days (Zech. 12:9). Does this refer to the last days of the tribulation period, or at the end of the millennium? Jesus is going to “come” one more time (Heb. 9:28), so how could he “come” again at the end of the millennium to destroy these nations again?

        • Revelation 19 shows us that the Battle of Armageddon happens at the end of the time of Jacob’s trouble where we, the Church, return on white horses with Jesus Christ. This is the SECOND COMING, but you will note that WE are WITH HIM, not waiting FOR Him. The Church has already been raptured, back in chapter 4, and at the SECOND COMING we return with Him.

          “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:14 (KJV)

          Revelation 20 shows us the START of the literal THOUSAND YEAR REIGN of Christ upon the Earth. After that the Battle of Gog and Magog.

          “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” Revelation 20:7-9 (KJV)

          There is no Second Coming at the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus has already been on the Earth 1,000 years by this point.

          • Jim Black

            I totally agree with all that you said exceptthat you said. Our only dispute is When the saints are taken up. I believe there will be another “Gog/magog” war at the end of the millennium. It will be the final attack by warring sinners accumulated during the thousand years, against God’s people. Of course, Jesus once again destroys the forces of evil and then eternity begins. No more wars, no more sin, no more crime, etc. just eternity serving God.

            A few of us spent Saturday and Sunday at the beach where the Air/Sea show took place. Lots of preaching the word, holding up gospel posters and passing out tracts. Why not come down and join us next year?

    • John33

      So really we pught to live a peaceful life and wait untill jesus comes? As long as I know all people in the bible who where doing Gods thing suffered!!! Yes beheaded, persuecuted, thrown in jail i can go on with the list dont fool yourself by waiting in your comfort zone while there is lits of things for God to do! This is why i also dont really like people talkig. About thia rapture thing people just act selfish in the way of thank God i am out of the world before it all happens really and how about those lost soulssss out there you want them to burnnn in fire tooo or youll just fine like it is having your vip trip to heaven!!

      • I will be getting the VIP trip, hope you are able to make it too! Will not be fun here during the time of Jacobs trouble for all the non-believers. To receive the mark or die as a martyr will be the only choice for those left behind. Read the Bible, its all in there! Let the Holy Spirit lead and the truth will reveal itself to you.

  • Abigail Sanders

    Geoffrey,

    Your supposition could hold water, “if”, Song of Solomon is meant to be translated and understood “literally,” and from an earthly point of view, as opposed to figuratively and from a Heavenly point of view. As one example, in Song 2:11, “…the winter is past…”, the word ‘winter’ in Strong’s Concordance is ‘cethav’ (H5638). The transliteration of ‘cethav’ is, “From an unused root meaning to hide; winter (as the dark season)…” Cethav occurs one time in one verse in the King James Bible…so we cannot make inferences of the meaning of the word based on other usages. What we can do is look at the letters that make up the word to give a clue as to what is actually being said. The word cethav consists of the Hebrew letters, Samech – Tav – Vav. The pictogram for Samech is a thorn, the meanings = grab, hate, protect. The pictogram for Tav is the cross (sign of eternal redemption/restoration), the meanings = mark, sign, signal, monument. The pictogram for Vav is a tent peg or nail, the meanings = add, secure, hook. As you can see, the word “winter” is not necessarily speaking of a literal earthly season called winter…but there is a greater depth of understanding to be gleaned by giving attention to every detail. If you allow the Hebrew letters to speak, they are speaking of the work of the cross, the “dark season” or “winter” would be speaking of the season preceding the New Covenant cut in the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ…that season, preceding Christ marked by the reign of death, darkness, and evil. Personally, I believe Song of Solomon, like The Book of Revelation is not meant to be interpreted literally. (I, not unlike many, would that the rapture occur “right now!” However, that decision is not mine, and in truth it is a somewhat selfish desire.) We know from Genesis 1:14, “…let them be for signs, and for seasons…” (H4150), that the Hebrew word for “seasons” is “mow’ed” an appointed time. The references in Song 2:12, all signify occurrences that we would associate with the earthy season of Spring. However, seen from a figurative understanding of a season being a “mowed” or appointed time, these descriptors of Spring, I believe, are referring to the time of the New Birth, the ultimate New Life birthed through the finished work of Jesus Christ on Calvary’s Cross. Indeed, the rapture may occur in the natural earthly season of Spring, a time beginning March 20th and ending June 20th…but I do not believe that is what this passage of scripture is referring to.

    Yours Truly
    Abby

    • As a Bible believer, I take all scripture literally in every place where it is possible to do so. I never check the Greek because I believe God gave me His preserved word in English.

      Sure sounds like Spring to me, thanks for writing! 🙂

      • Pete

        “I take all scripture literally in every place where it is possible to do so.” this is a terrible way to read and interpret scripture. You should take the entire Bible literally, not just where you think it’s “possible”. What a 21st century American reader of scripture thinks is “possible” is completely different than what a person in the 1200s would think. Take the Bible literally, meaning, allow ONLY the Bible to interpret itself and don’t add to or subtract from it. This Enoch reference is adding to the Bible, its the imaginations of men. Where in the Bible is it stated that Enoch is a type picture of the Rapture of the Church? Do you just get to make up pictures Geoffrey? I can make up all kinds of pictures too, and support anything I wish! How can you claim you take scripture literally when you 100% ADD to the word of God?

        • Well….the Bible says that Jesus is “the door”, right? It also says that He is a “lamb”. Obviously, He is not literally those things, but is symbolized as such and rightly so. As far as understanding typology goes, I did my best in the article to explain what that is, perhaps you should go back and reread that section.

          • Pete

            Those are pretty simple metaphors for our modern Western minds to comprehend. It isn’t as easy to understand what the Bible means by the moon turning to blood. Or the mark of the beast. Or stars falling from the sky. Or locusts that are shaped like horses with the faces of men. Or Jesus with a sword protruding from His mouth. That takes a deeper understanding of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. Unfortunately, most people read only the parts of the OT that their Bible teachers tell them to read, and skip the rest. The modern “literal” reading of the Bible that you are espousing doesn’t work, because it constantly changes with the times and it relies on modern idioms

            Dipies are the people who take the Bible the least literally of all. Case in point – you make the story of Enoch into a metaphor or typology of the “rapture” when the Bible teaches no such thing.

            Do us a favor. If you want to make up new metaphors outside of scripture, go ahead. But don’t insult our intelligence by claiming you rightly divide the word, and you read the Bible “literally.”

      • Jim Black

        Brother Geoff,

        I don’t think you should exclude checking the Greek in your studies. Words have meaning and sometimes the surface reading is clarified by the Greek definitions. A good example is the word “remain” as used in 1 Thes. 4:15,17. The Greek for it (perileipomai) means “to be left over, to survive.” What do you think it will be that believers from all over the world will survive in a pre trib rapture?

        Or does it make better sense that it will be the saints who will be “alive and remaining” and who endured the tribulation period.

        Another example of checking the Greek for meaning is the word “convert” in Luke 22:32 where Jesus says to Peter, “But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

        Does this mean that Peter was not saved because he needed to be converted? Of course not. Again the Greek clarifies what “convert” means in this verse: “to turn to, to cause to return, to bring back, to come back.” Recall that Peter temporarily left Jesus by denying Him. But Jesus assured him that he would return to Himself and strengthen the brethren. Again, the Greek clarifies a word that a surface reading may not communicate.

        Lord bless

        • The King James Bible comes with a built-in dictionary to tell me the meaning of any word I have trouble with. When I compare ‘scripture with scripture’, in context and rightly divided, I come to the right meaning each and every time.

          I don’t speak Greek, or Hebrew, I speak English. God gave me an English Bible. Interestingly, the entire NT is written in Greek and yet there is not a single admonition for any Gentile to learn the Hebrew that the Old Testament was written in. Not one. It is the Holy Spirit that shows us the meanings of words in the Bible, not some corrupt Greek lexicon created on the corrupt work of Westcott and Hort.

          • Pete

            /When I compare ‘scripture with scripture’, in context and rightly divided, I come to the right meaning each and every time.//

            Except you still cannot give a single BIBLICAL proof that “The time of Jacob’s trouble” and Daniel’s 70th week are the same thing. You have nothing but your earlier church fathers who have told you that.

          • Jim Black

            Geoffrey writes:

            “The King James Bible comes with a built-in dictionary to tell me the meaning of any word I have trouble with. When I compare ‘scripture with scripture’, in context and rightly divided, I come to the right meaning each and every time.”

            JB: So did you understand that where Jesus told Peter to convert in Luke 23:32, that He ment that Peter would come back to Jesus, which he ultimately did? And what about “remain?” Did you consider that it means, “to survive?” If not, what do you think Paul ment by saying “remain?”

            “I don’t speak Greek, or Hebrew, I speak English. God gave me an English Bible. Interestingly, the entire NT is written in Greek and yet there is not a single admonition for any Gentile to learn the Hebrew that the Old Testament was written in. Not one. It is the Holy Spirit that shows us the meanings of words in the Bible, not some corrupt Greek lexicon created on the corrupt work of Westcott and Hort.”

            Well then, why do seminaries offer studies in the Greek language? How about Thayer’s Lexicon? Is that corrupt also? And what about the Liddell, Scott and Brown Lexicon, Vines and all the others? Are they all corrupt too?

            God bless you my friend.

  • Richard Scott

    The rapture does not start the tribulation the signing of a treaty between Israel and the Anti-Christ does.

    • The time of Jacob’s trouble is much more than just the wrath of God being poured out. It starts with the Jews being seduced and deceived by the Antichrist.

      • Pete

        The Time of Jacob’s Trouble is obviously the Babylonian Captivity and took place 2500 years ago. Obviously you guys aren’t reading the entire book of Jeremiah and keeping it in context. There is not a shred of BIBLICAL evidence that the Time of Jacob’s trouble and Daniel’s 70th week are yet future and the same time period/events.

      • Peggy

        The Jews are not the only ones that will be deceived. Did Jesus not say that even the elect will be deceived? The Jews are not His elect. Remember that the majority of the so-called Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah. The Jews will lead many to follow the antichrist because they are waiting for a messiah that will bring peace to the world. Jesus will not come back to bring peace but a sword.

  • Southern Belle

    This was FANTASTIC! Thank you SO much! I went in and studied this on my own after reading your article. Somehow there seems to be a connection to Joel chapter 2. Can you help me out with that? Thanks again!

    • Everything in Joel has to do with the Second Coming and the Battle of Armageddon, some of which is alluded to in Song of Solomon. Thanks for writing!

  • Jerry pool

    THE FIRST FRUIT OF THE RESURRECTION IS FOUND IN MATTHEW 27: 52 AND 53 WHERE MANY IN THE GRAVES CAME FORTH AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.

  • Eddie

    Of all the articles you have done this one excites me most. I’ve had the same belief for almost a year. I can’t explain it. Today before reading your article I was reading The Songs of Solomon and it just leaped from thep age at me! I’m still in awe.

    • Leigh

      Were you reading the very same verse that Geoff wrote about?? 🙂

      It’s so awesome when you get conformation from the Lord like that?

      God bless

      • Eddie R

        YES!

  • Leonard

    Have any of you seen this young lady’s reportage about THE (possibly) antichrist of Revelation? Any reaction? Check it out:

  • Jamie

    All of the Sunday churches that believe in the rapture, are going to be so confused and disappointed when it doesn’t happen. Your ministers are not telling you the right thing. Why don’t y’all try reading and studying the bible for yourself, instead of having someone else tell you what it says.

    • I did study it for myself, and then wrote this article 🙂 Why don’t you leave the cult of the Seventh Day Adventists?

      • Amen!

      • Leonard

        Geoffrey, why don’t you post a link to that video about Helen White you posted about 4 months ago? Jamie nneds to see it. At the time I saw it, I was nearly finished reading The Bible all the way through, and had a lot of questions about SDA’s teachings, but the Ellen White video caused me to look deeper into her and her life and caused me to leave the church. After several back-and-forth communications with one of the church elders, I sent him an email quoting the scripture that clearly refuted SDA teachings, but asking him to help me by showing scriptures that would show my understanding was wrong. Crickets…

        FYI, Jamie, read these Scriptures:

        Exodus 31:13-17
        Exodus 34:28
        2 Chronicles 2:14
        Jeremiah 31:31-33
        Hebrews 8:13
        Matthew 22: 36-40
        Galatians 5:14
        Romans 13:9-10
        Galatians 3:23-29
        Acts 15:24-29
        Colossians 2:16-17
        Galatians 2:21
        Galatians 5:1-5

        If you like, I can send you the same letter sent to Jep–at the church to which I’d belonged for several years, in which I explained what I believed these Scriptures to say. Give me an email address…

    • Sola scrIptura

      Hey Jamie – check these verses:
      “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
      ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬
      http://bible.com/1/col.2.16-17.kjv

      “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
      ‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:2-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
      http://bible.com/1/rom.4.2-5.kjv

      Don’t h8 the plays…h8 the game. 🙂

      • Sola scriptura

        ***playa

  • Marian

    Thank you so much for this post. I have studied the Rapture doctrine for 35+ years, researching all the different viewpoints. The pre-trib rapture is the one that takes into account all relevant scripture and is the only one consistent with God’s nature.

    What kind of a Savior would subject His bride (i.e. all those saved by the Blood of Jesus) to His unmitigated wrath (Rev. 6:16-17) along with Satan’s minions?

    • Marian;
      I always get a chuckle out of those who so smugly give as a pre-trib “proof’ the statement that The Church has to be removed or the Lord would be a wife beater! Apparently you (like most rapture theorists) do not know your own theology. Dispensational Theology states that the Church is the Bride of Christ, whereas national Israel is the Bride of Jehovah! Yes, they teach God has TWO Brides, not one. If your assessment of the Church going through the tribulation would make Jesus a wife beater, then you are accusing the Father of abusing HIS Bride! Get up to speed on what rapture teachers really believe. If you did you might not be so firm on the pre-trib myth.
      Kind of funny that Rapture Teachers never correct their followers for mistakes like this.
      Would you care to respond to this statement Brother Grider?
      Blessings to all who love Jesus;
      Paul

      • Sure….in the Bible, there are three people groups God can be addressing at any given time. They Jews and Israel, the Church, or the unsaved Gentiles. These three groups comprise the whole of humanity at any given time. Paul directs us to “rightly divide” in 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) so we will apply the proper scripture in the proper place. Heresies like Replacement Theology come when passages written to national Israel are stolen and applied to the Church. 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV) is not a “prayer for nations” in general, it is a PROMISE to Israel of what God will do if they repent when they stray.

        The Church is raptured out, not because “God is not a wife beater”, but because the Tribulation is not God’s plan for the Church. The clue to this is found in Jeremiah 30:7:

        “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

        The Bible calls it the “time of Jacob’s trouble”, and so it is. It is not for the Church, it is a judgment on Israel and the Jews, and it can only take place after May 14, 1948. The Church and Israel are not the same, they are different. Some people call them “sisters”, but in reality they are more like cousins.

        The favorite “go to” passage for all you Post Toasties is Matthew 24, right? Well, what do we read there? We read Jesus telling the Jewish disciples about what will befall Israel in the time of Jacob’s trouble. That is the context. To educate yourself further, please read this:

        OUR TOP 5 REASONS WHY MATTHEW 24 CANNOT BE TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/our-top-5-reasons-why-matthew-24-cannot-be-talking-about-the-rapture-of-the-church/

        • Edwitness

          Geoffrey, The best explanation for the pre-trib you have given in such a short space. Love it, love it, love it!! Jacob’s trouble. Enough said.
          And I have always believed what you wrote regarding 2nd Chronicles 7:14. Never does God say it is for anyone other than Israel. Whenever I hear a preacher refer to it for America, which is painfully too often, I turn the channel.
          There was no “imminence” regarding the rapture until Israel existed. Since that time the Christian has been looking for the pre trib rapture.

          Blessings:-} Brother

          • Pete

            Geoffrey, edwitness….ANYONE….please tell me

            //The Bible calls it the “time of Jacob’s trouble”, and so it is. //

            WHERE DOES THE BIBLE CALL DANIEL’S 70TH WEEK THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE? WHERE does the Bible call the “Great Tribulation” the time of Jacob’s Trouble?

          • Emery

            Pete;
            The answer is nowhere. However, if you subscribe to this “rapture of the church” falsehood, look in the KJV in Jeremiah 30:7. But there really is no rapture of the church. In fact, no word that translates into “church” can be found in the ancient scrolls. The word the KJV falsely translated into church is ecclesia, and it translates into congregation or people. It refers to holy spirit annointed members of the 144,000, and NOT to any “church”. The 144,000 are those whom most false religions call the “elect”.

        • Brother Grider;
          Let me start by saying I have always admired your stand for the true Word of God, as do I. I speak out and write on the corruption of the new Bible versions. I have written two books on the subject which took two solid years of study, research, and writing. They are available as a free download on my site. I invite you to check out my work.
          You said: ‘To educate yourself’ further, please read this: OUR TOP 5 REASONS WHY…
          What I read there was four statements of supposition forced by a dispensational viewpoint that are not really proving anything, merely promoting dispensationalism. Stating your beliefs as proof of your beliefs is no proof at all.
          The fifth reason given is an outright falsehood which is easily shown to be false by the examination of Scripture. You gave two O.T. scriptures as support of your Reason #5 but none from the N.T.. Why? Because there are none! In the New Testament writings (and I suspect you are already aware of this) the Body of Christ is referred to as the elect of God in quite a number of places. I will not clog up your comment section with an overly lengthy statement but would invite you instead to check out my complete response to this false claim here:

          https://pbenson.me/2016/05/09/the-identity-of-the-elect-in-matthew-24/

          I trust that after reading this you will be prompted to rework your writings on the matter to properly reflect the truth of God’s Holy Word, and not the error forced by one of the many facets of dispensational theology which are at odds (as you are well aware) with the Scriptures.
          In Jesus Christ;
          Paul

        • jim black

          Hello Geoff,

          Should we disregard any teachings of Jesus that were given to His Jewish disciples? Or can we apply, “To the Jew first and then the Gentile?” (Rom. 1:16)

          By the way, do you believe that Jesus will make TWO future glorious appearings?

  • Larry/vietnamvet1971

    another Good Article….providing more Truth that we need to look at and understand what GOD wants us to know….for the Time is getting short…….Be not Deceived……….

  • Ben Starchenko

    As per my previous posts, what are pre-tribulationists to do with the following scripture:

    2 Thessalonians 2

    1 – Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (gathering together unto him = rapture)

    2 – That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (Dont be concerned about when it will happen, or be concerned it has happened)

    3 – Let no man deceive you by any means (BEWARE IF PEEPLE TEACH CONTRARY TO WHAT I TEACH YOU): for that day shall not come (RAPTURE, SEE VERSE 1), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED = HOW IS HE REVEALED?);

    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (HE IS REVEALED WHEN HE SHOW HIMSELF AS GOD, WHEN DOES THIS OCUR, WHEN DOES THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION OCCUR = AS PER DANIEL AFTER 3 1/2 YEARS, MIDDLE OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION)

    No need to write anything more, so need to use all sorts of semantics to prove otherwise. Paul is as clear as day. DONE LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU………………….

    Final note, What does Jesus promise his disciples, his church?

    John 16:33 – These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall HAVE TRIBULATION (Jesus tells us we will have it): but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    Other verses about believers having tribulation:

    Acts 14:22 – Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

    Romans 5:3 – And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

    Romans 8:35 – Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    1 Thessalonians 3:4 – For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

    Take the time to read the Olivet Discourse, take note of when Jesus states things will occur, take note of what he promises believers. Don’t ever fall into the rubbish that the Olivet Discourse is not for the church, all of Jesus teachings are for the church……..

  • Edwitness

    Amen Geoffrey,
    It makes sense that God would place a type of the uniting of Himself with his bride in the rapture in the most explicitly written love story in the Bible. Great stuff!
    Blessings:-}

    • Pete

      Edwitness, this is something that has always baffled me about pre-tribbers and pre-millennials. How can anyone make the claim that the body of Christ is NOT united with Him? We ARE the body of Christ, as a husband and wife are one body:

      Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
      Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
      Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

      This is a PRESENT REALITY, not some future thing to come.

      I don’t get it.

  • Karen

    Why would a mostly Gentile Church be Raptured on a Jewish Feast Day? “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.” Romans 11:25 The Rapture is a predetermined number not a predetermined date. Unless of course you believe that the Church has replaced Israel (Replacement Theology)which it has not. God is not finished with Israel.

  • Tom

    You are all over the place Geof. First you tell people to rightly divide and to know who is talking to who, when you don’t even do it yourself.You quote Matt.24:22,23 “Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, YE know that summer is nigh: So likewise YE, when YE shall see all these things,(are you telling us these 12 are going to see Israel become a state in 1948) know that it is near, even at the doors.” Are you telling us that Jesus is teaching about the rapture?? You quote 1Cor.15:52,53 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” If the Rapture was a mystery, not revealed until Paul why would Jesus be teaching the 12 about something they wouldn’t even find out about until Paul?? Matt.24 is all about the Jews and Christ 2nd.coming Matt.24:27, 1Cor.is all about the body of Christ and the Rapture, let’s not try to make both into the same event.

  • Scott

    Geoffrey

    Love your posts. One minor quibble with this one though. As you pointed out, Methuselah was Enoch’s son, and given he lived until 969 yrs old, then Enoch disappeared at least 600 years before the flood, not “shortly” before. In fact Methuselah died the year the flood came (do the genealogies for proof), which is why he wasn’t on the Ark.

  • Heather

    I think there is going to be a whole lot of stunned brethren in a moment, and in the twinkling of an eye!

  • Robin

    Do a search on “new age teaching on the rapture”
    The enemy is well aware of this event and when it occurs and has been revealing this through the demonic spirits these lost souls channel. They are at the gate waiting the starting gun, the rapture of the church. Then all hell breaks loose as the restrainer ( the Holy Spirit on the believers) is removed and the antichrist is free to ascend to power!

  • CHAR

    Geoffrey, this is your best article yet! I always heard that the rapture would be during one of the fall feasts, but this certainly makes sense with the scriptures you quote along with it. I for one surely hope and pray you are right (especially if it’s this spring). Otherwise, we will have to wait a whole year. I’m willing to do it, but hopefully not having to.

    I don’t know why people have a problem with the tribulation being mainly for the Jews. They will revert back to the way it was in the days when Jesus was on earth the first time and you CAN’T mix law and grace, thus the Body of Christ will be gone when He sets up His kingdom on earth. You are absolutely correct on all that you have written in this article.

    Keep up the good work. This one’s a keeper!

    • Pete

      CHAR, you wrote “They will revert back to the way it was in the days when Jesus was on earth the first time”. This is where I really get confused by the belief system of dispensationalism. WHERE in the Bible do we ever read that we will jump backwards into Old Covenant things? Was the Apostle Paul not clear when he wrote that the old things are gone? That Jesus Christ took the Old Covenant things, which were type and shadow, away? Seriously. I cannot fathom why people believe this. Other than unless you do, you can’t make your eschatology work.

  • Tom

    Revelation is not about the Body of Christ
    The body of Christ is not the subject of the book of Revelation. Here is some evidence to support that fact:
    1. Its placement in the sixfold division of the Bible:
    The OT – The King and His coming Kingdom in promise and prophecy
    The 4 Gospels – The King and His Kingdom offered and rejected
    The Acts – The King and His Kingdom re-offered and rejected, transition to the body of Christ
    The Pauline Epistles – The Kingdom postponed, the King made Head of the Church
    The Jewish Epistles – The King and His Kingdom once again at hand
    The Revelation – The King comes to establish His kingdom on the earth

    The Jewish character of the book. It is full of Hebrew idioms, expressions, words and phrases, and imagery. The number of OT passages quoted or alluded to in Matthew is 92, Hebrews is 102, but Revelation is 285!
    Revelation is a book of PROPHECY (Rev. 1:3; 22:7,10,18-19). The body of Christ is not the subject of prophecy but a great mystery that was hid from the prophets and was first revealed to and through the apostle Paul (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:5,9; Col. 1:26).
    The vantage point from which John writes the book is the future Day of the LORD (1:10). The Spirit transported him past the Grace Age into the tribulation period (and beyond) to be an eyewitness of the things he was to write.
    The promises given to the 7 churches are clearly for tribulation saints. The Bible does not limit the use of the word “church” to the present age (Acts 7:38). Does the body of Christ have to overcome in order to have right to the tree of life and not be hurt of the second death (2:7,11)?
    Jesus Christ is presented throughout this book in accordance with prophecy and not the revelation of the mystery (Rom. 16:25). He is seen as the Great High Priest and the coming King of kings, not the Head of the church.
    The WHOLE book was sent to the seven churches and they were told to KEEP the things in it (Rev. 1:3,11). Are you trying to keep the instruction of 14:9-12 and 22:14 for example?

    There is more evidence than this but I think these 7 points are suffcient for any thinking person that is not totally blinded by religious tradition to see that Revelation is not about the body of Christ. All scripture is FOR us but it was not all written TO us or ABOUT us!

  • Rolly

    Is there a pre trib rapture or is it just Christian theology? Read this article: http://www.ezekielsfire.com/chapter-one/the-pre-tribulation-rapture-lie/

    If there is NO pre trib rapture then those preachers are in serious trouble with Yahuah, because that is false preaching and deception.

  • Ella

    I simply cannot understand the contempt and anger I see across the Internet for those who believe in a pre trib rapture. People mock ridicule and snipe and there is no real kindness in any of it. I have seen far more animosity from detractors of pre trib than those who believe it. Why? I think the worst I heard was from Leonard Ravenhill calling pre trib believers cowards who just don’t want to suffer for Jesus. I don’t think anyone really understands just how terrible those days will be. Not only that but our current modern society is a form of hell itself. I have suffered more than I can cope with. Scripture tells me to look forward to the blessed hope and pray for escape. how is this cowardice?

    Please everyone can we stop this ugly bickering. We all want the same thing. Jesus is returning soon! Let us all be ready!

    • Heather

      Amen and amen again Ella! Everything you said is true and right. God bless you sister!

    • Ben starcheko

      Ella,

      Please note if you feel you are being vindicated because of the discussion regarding the timing of the rapture, i wholeheartedly apologise. This argument is not in anyway connected or a requirement of Salvation, so both parties are Christian Brothers and Sisters.

      Please note that as a Pre-wrath believer, i do not want to mock or snipe anyone who believers differently, but i will contend for the faith with love and patience.

      Please note that Paul the Apostle confirms, and warns that the Rapture is not Pre-tribulational, it is written as clear as day on the following passage:

      2 Thessalonians 2

      1 – Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (gathering together unto him = rapture)

      2 – That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (Dont be concerned about when it will happen, or be concerned it has happened)

      3 – Let no man deceive you by any means (BEWARE IF PEEPLE TEACH CONTRARY TO WHAT I TEACH YOU): for that day shall not come (RAPTURE, SEE VERSE 1), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED = HOW IS HE REVEALED?);

      Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (HE IS REVEALED WHEN HE SHOW HIMSELF AS GOD, WHEN DOES THIS OCUR, WHEN DOES THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION OCCUR = AS PER DANIEL AFTER 3 1/2 YEARS, MIDDLE OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION)

      To date no one has tried to respond to this passage, but like all good Ostriches, they choose to stick there heads in the sand again. There are many great christian men who are leading the charge against the false belief of Pre-tribulational rapture, people such as Kent Hovind, Joe Schimmel (Good Fight Ministries) and they have produced excellent publications for there views.

      Please note we can use all the semantics in the world to prove a pre-tribulational rapture by the use of types etc, but the hard truth is that Jesus’s Olivet Discourse and Pauls 2 Thessalonians timings are exactly the same. WE cannot ever, and i will not ever, discount what Jesus taught us directly.

      As always, if anyone can respond to Paul’s writings in Thessalonians about his statement reading the timing of the rapture, please help me. Because in order to believe in a Pre-Tribulational rapture, i have to ignore Pauls warning to “Be not Deceived”.

      • tiptopsaidhe

        “To date no one has tried to respond to this passage”…it was responded to in the 1st fold.

        In v4, Paul tells the Thessalonians the son of perdition is already sitting in the temple. That makes him a high priest. In v6&7, Paul says that the man of sin is already at work, and that the Holy Spirit is restraining him.

        If the man of sin is still yet to come along, 2000 or more years later, why would the Holy Spirit be needed to restrain him at the time Paul wrote to the Thessalonians? Why would the Holy Spirit be needed to restrain a person who wasn’t born? If the man of sin wasn’t already at work, why would Paul tell them that he was?

        In the Olivet prophecy, Jesus said it would happen during that generation. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

        If the 70th week of Daniel didn’t already happen, as you suggest, then you are waiting for an antichrist to anoint the most Holy, as well as 5 other things listed in v24. That means that Jesus isn’t the Messiah and you are awaiting another, who will be anointed by the “antichrist.” It’s a substantial and significant misunderstanding. If Jesus is the Messiah, then those 6 things were fulfilled at Calvary. It also clears up v.27, and means the 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled.

        24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

        • Edwitness

          WRONG!…………………STILL

          • tiptopsaidhe

            I’m willing to listen to your answer to the questions I asked. I’m willing to hear why you believe Jesus and Paul weren’t telling those of that “generation” the truth. I’m willing to hear how you believe an antichrist is responsible to accomplish the 6 things in Dan 9:24, including his authority to anoint the most Holy.

        • ben starcheko

          to TipTopSaidhe

          Please allow me to respond to your statement.

          You state that the Man of sin is already at work, please note the text does not state this.

          Verse 3 ; Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (verse 3 is talking about the man of sin, and the timing of the day of christ in relation to him)

          Verse 7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (Verse 7 does not say that the man of sin is already sitting in the temple, it is not talking about the man of sin. it is talking about the “Mystery of iniquity”, this is not the “Man of Sin”)

          • tiptopsaidhe

            2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

            2Th 2:4 Who opposes, and exalts himself above, all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he, as God, sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

            Paul clearly says he is sitting in the temple, showing himself that he is God. The word of God came to the Jews through the High Priest…he was the mouthpiece of God to the Jews. v7 clearly says the iniquity of the man is already at work. Paul had already told the Thessalonian believers who this person was and what they were to expect. Paul is speaking about Annas as the man of sin. Luke describes him in Acts 4:1-6 as the keeper of the temple.

      • Jim Black

        This is good stuff, Ben. The lukewarm church in America is ill-prepared for hard persecution, suffering and tribulation that the tribulation will bring. Because of this, Jesus said many will fall away (apostasy). Every believer needs to read the letter by Corrie Ten Boom in which she relates about her sufferings in a China prison camp. After she was released, she wrote this letter to encourage the church to be prepared for tribulation and how to fully trust in the Lord to go through it. 1 Peter 4 is all about suffering for Christ and the glory that follows.

        God bless you brother

    • Leigh

      Amen Ella!

  • Rolly

    Messiah set timing for His return in Hebrew code language.
    By saying “no one knows the day and hour,” He was telling His disciples (taught ones) that He was returning on a Yom Teruah, the Feast of Trumpets, sometime in the future.
    Paul, in I Thessalonians 5, tells true believers that they are children of light, not of the darkness, therefore they will know the times and seasons.
    Messiah warns of being deceived by false prophets regarding the timing of His return. (Matthew 24)
    He is not hiding the timing of His return! He is only shrouding it from those who don’t need to know it.
    Those today who are speculators, giving opinions, using Scripture taken out of context, are a dime a dozen.
    Messiah only hides things from the “multitudes” that use information for their own personal gain, using sensationalism, and fear tactics.

    Beware of man’s speculative spin on timing. Do not base your faith on it.
    China had a huge Christian population. Missionaries taught them that they would escape in a pre-tribulation rapture before any tribulation could harm them. They believed it… until Mao Se Tung came and slaughtered so many of them. In their anger against a God who failed them, they denied Jesus by the hundreds of thousands. A bishop over several churches told Corrie Ten Boom to tell the people of the West not to believe in this spurious doctrine, but to prepare them to go through the tribulation.
    Let us know Yahuah! His nature will tell you clearly what is true and what is a lie!
    Is there even one verse in Scriptures that for 7 years a rag-tag bunch of Torah-less Christians will banquet in heaven, while the Jews suffer?
    You will not find any Scripture that tells of a 7-year tribulation!
    Hanging onto belief that you will escape suffering will also lead many into thinking they can take a chip, or align to a united world system, for security, and it is not the mark of the Beast.
    Messiah promised suffering for His sake. It is our purifying fire.
    Your belief system may lead you into passionate anger and hate of a God that lets you suffer, if you don’t have the right One now!
    Learn the nature of Yahuah by reading the Word, especially the Prophets!
    The first KJV Bible with the Messiah’s name as IESVS Christ in 1611!
    From the time Constantine’s interpreters got hold of the ancient manuscripts they changed the content, the names, the feasts and the Sabbath.
    Thus Isaiah 24:4-6 will play out.

    • wRAY

      Jesus fulfilled First Fruits when he was the first person to be raised from the dead, the next feast is Trumpets. This feast has to do with the moon and is the reason no one knows the day or the hour. There will also be a trumpet sound at the time of the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18…not mention that trumpets are a part of this feast: “Jews blow the trumpet one hundred times on the Feast of Trumpets. The one hundredth blast or the last blast of the trumpet on the Feast of Trumpets is the longest and loudest.”

    • Jim Black

      Amen Rolly.

      We can only pray that brother Geoff and others here will read your message carefully and, especially, prayerfully. Paul warned us that “ear tickling” doctrines would come with the end times. The two great “ticklers” today are preterism and pretibulationism. My own brother used to believe in a rapture but has fallen away and believes there will be no tribulation or rapture. My heart bleeds for him.

  • Tracy

    I believe the main point is just be ready, because we do not know the day or the hour, or for that matter the minute that we will take our last breath. Pray for the lost who do not know Jesus as their Lord and Savior that they will open their hearts, minds and souls and believe before it’s too late.
    Keep looking up!

    • jim black

      Hi Tracy,

      God bless you for your heart for the lost. This is the number one priority of the church jtoday and ALL Christian must concentrate in being the best witness they can.

      It’s true that we don’t know the day or hour, but I believe that scripture teaches that the saints will know the timing of Jesus’ imminent return for His bride (Luke 21:28, Matt. 24:33). Tribulation saints will include the tribulation bound church and those who get saved during it. They are the great number of saints who were slain in the great tribulation and whom no man can number (Rev. 7:9,14). They will were not in the dark about the timing of the rapture. (1 Thes. 5:4,5). “That day” in verse 4, and 2 Thes. 2:2,3, is the second coming which includes the rapture, the day of our physical redemption (Luke 21:28, Rom. 8:23).

  • Dennis

    The Church is mentioned in Rev.3:22. Then again in Rev.22:16. So from Rev.3:22 to 22:16, where is it?

    • jim black

      Hi Dennis,

      I think wherever “saints” is mentioned, it refers to the church. Between Rev. 5:8 and 20:9 saints is mentioned 13 times. Why should we not consider them (Jew and Gentile) as church age saints?

    • Pete

      Gosh Dennis, obviously since the phrase “the church” isn’t found in those passages, it MUST be up in heaven, on the balcony, overlooking the world as it burns, drink in hand. LOL. What kind of crazy logic is that????

      By the way, you probably believe Revelation 19 talks about a “millennium” kingdom of Christ, where we (the church) reign with Him ON EARTH. But you just said the church isn’t mentioned in Revelation 19.

      Now what???

      Do you see how RIDICULOUS your theories are?

      I think you pre-tribbers need to give up this silly argument, just like the post-tribbers should give up on their silly “the word rapture is nowhere in scripture” argument.

  • Tom

    Who is the Bride of Prophecy?
    Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
    Revelation 21:9b

    The main division (2 Tim. 2:15) in the scripture is between the things which were spoken by the prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21) and the things that were kept secret since the world began until they were revealed to and through the apostle Paul (Rom. 16:25). Israel, her King, and the kingdom is the subject of prophecy (Acts 1:1-6). Christ as the Head of one spiritual body wherein there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal. 3:26-28) is the subject of the mystery (Eph. 3:1-13).

    The book of Revelation is a book of PROPHECY (1:3). It is based on OT prophecy and is the consummation of God’s prophetic kingdom program concerning Israel and the nations. If you will lay aside preconceived ideas received by religious tradition and simply read the following passages, I believe that the word of God will tell you who the bride of prophecy is.
    Israel became the wife of God under the old covenant (Jer. 2:1-2)
    She constantly committed spiritual adultery against Him with her idolatry (Jer. 3; Ezek. 16)
    After much longsuffering He gave her a bill of divorcement (Isa. 50:1; Jer. 3:8)
    He promised to betroth her again as a virgin bride (Isa. 54:6-8; 62:1-5; Hos. 2:14-23)
    Christ presented Himself to Israel as a Bridegroom but He was rejected by her (Jn. 1:31; 3:29)
    When He comes again she will receive Him and be His bride and wife (Rev. 19:7-11)
    This relationship will remain in the eternal state (Rev. 21:1-2, 9-14)
    I am not suggesting that the body of Christ will not have access to the new Jerusalem but why do most Christian’s believe that this city belongs to us? The number twelve is stamped all over the city (there are seven twelve’s in the description of the city). This number is not associated with the ONE body of Christ but the TWELVE tribes of Israel. The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are on the twelve gates of the city and the names of the twelve JEWISH apostles of the Lamb (Matt. 19:28) are on the twelve foundations. And yet Christians, in their usual selfish approach to the Bible, want to steal this city from Israel! It is the new JERUSALEM, not the new Atlanta!

  • And the MSM is not talking about this. Millions, not hundreds of fish. And no one knows why!

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-01/beaches-full-of-dead-fish-test-new-vietnam-government-s-response

  • Jesus christ is lord

    Geoffrey you mentioned the verse
    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) in your Bible believer’s guide.

    The falling away is not the rapture my brother. It is people, including so-called Christians, being deceived because they weren’t true to begin with.

    So how do you now support a pre=trib rapture based on this verse ????

    • ben starcheko

      Jesus is Lord,

      Please note i have raised this question numerous times now, with no response.

      On this very same page in the comments section Geoffrey states that he takes the Bible literally, so when the Bible literally says that the rapture can’t occur till after the Man of Sin in revealed, sitting in the Temple, why do they all stick their heads in the sand and ignore it? Im totally bewildered, aren’t they truly interested in the truth?

      I was a pre-tribulation believer for my whole life, but once i was shown that the bible teaches against it, i changed my opinion. I’m more interested in God’s truths, rather than pride in my own opinions. Please note thought that if someone can show me how this passage does not go against the pre-trig theory, i am willing to admit i was wrong. I am not interested in being prideful in my knowledge, i would prefer to be shown to be incorrect and change accordingly.

      If we can’t believe the scriptures then what can we believe in? We would all be awash at sea with no compass to point us North. So why not accept what is written?

      I note that you state that the falling away is not the rapture, you are correct. I understand that argument trying to use the greek so show that apostasy means “departure”, which then is wrangled into the text to make it mean something it doesn’t. I will try to give a logical verse by verse breakdown as i always have, and you will see it is impossible for it to mean rapture.

      2 Thessalonians 2

      1 – Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (gathering together unto him = rapture)

      2 – That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (Dont be concerned about when it will happen, or be concerned it has happened)

      3 – Let no man deceive you by any means (BEWARE IF PEEPLE TEACH CONTRARY TO WHAT I TEACH YOU): for that day shall not come (RAPTURE, SEE VERSE 1), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED = HOW IS HE REVEALED?);

      So lets put the meaning of apostasy as “Rapture” into the above verses, and tell me if it makes sense. for ease of reading lets change the following:1

      Gathering unto Him – Rapture
      Day of Christ – Rapture

      No we beseech you, brethren, by the combining of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND THE RAPTURE
      That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the RAPTURE HAS OCCURRED
      Let no man deceive you by any means for THE RAPTURE SHALL not come , except there come a RAPTURE first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

      How can the rapture not come, until the rapture comes first………….its double speak, its nonsense………….apostasy cannot mean Rapture.

      • Clsk

        When you read the day of the Lord & the day of Christ in scripture it is referring to Christs return. When his feet touch the earth at the second advent. Would you agree or disagree with this?

        2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 KJV

        1“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

        2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

        3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

        4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

        5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

        6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

        7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

        8whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”
        2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 KJV

        In verse 7 what / who is it that needs to be taken out of the way? The restrainer, the Holy Spirit. So if we, as Christians have the Holy Spirit. How could the Holy Spirit be removed without the rapture of the church as well?

      • jim black

        Great message, Ben,

        What started me digging into the false teaching of a pre trib rapture is the view that Jesus will come TWICE, in the future, under the same conditions. How can that be, I asked myself? Unwittingly, this is what pre tribs have to believe. Here’s why: In 1 Thes.4:15-17 Jesus comes with clouds, angels and the sound of a trumpet to gather the saints. These are the premier pre trib rapture verses. Then in Matt. 24:30,31 we see Jesus COMING AGAIN under the same conditions: clouds, angels, trumpet and gathering. Really!!!!!!!!:)

        Topping it off is Paul’s statement that Jesus will come “a second time.” (Heb. 9:28)

        Come on, pre tribbers, How can Jesus come TWO more times under the same conditions when Paul says he’s coming once?

  • Questions and observations…

    Why is Enoch called a ‘gentile’ in this article? If ‘gentile’ simply means ‘non-Jew’ then everyone living in his time was a gentile. Any ‘typology’ regarding Jews and gentiles is then non-existent.

    Geoffrey’s statement, “Enoch’s rapture happens shortly before the tribulation of the flood of Noah destroys the Earth” is relative to what? The flood occurred at the same time as Methuselah’s death. Enoch was taken up to heaven 669 years before this. That does not seem like soon to me, even when considering the entire timeline of history. I think any typology here regarding a rapture ushering in the tribulation period is also destroyed by this fact.

    • jim black

      Hi Tim,

      I asked brother Geoff the same question and didn’t get a response either. You there Geoff?:)

  • Bob
  • Emery

    There is no “pretribulation rapture”. In fact, there is no “rapture” at all, mentioned anywhere in the scriptures. You take many scriptures, and STRETCH what they say to fit what you WANT them to say, but “rapture” does not appear in the scriptures. Your mistaking the taking up to be with Jesus of the remnant of the 144,000 as a rapture is not uncommon amongst “religions”, but it IS uncommon, in fact nonexistent, within the pages of the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is referring ONLY to members of the annointed 144,000 still alive on Earth, and NOT to anyone else.

    • Pete

      Emery, what do you make of Rev 14:4 that says the 144,000 “were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”? What’s “firstfruits” mean?

    • Pete

      Emery, I would still like to know why you think Rev 14:4 refers to the 144k as the “firstfruits”.

  • top

    The flood was God’s judgement on a wicked world, IT WAS NOT A “TRIBULATION”. Another flaw of this unbiblical belief (Pretrib Rapture) is to make scripture mean what you want it to mean to fit your belief. They say it is not a salvation issue but believing false doctrine can make a person commit a wrong that could be costly.

  • bremertonchristian

    Teacher Grider: you say you take the bible literally whenever you can, does that mean you believe God created the heaven and the earth in six days, or was it six periods of time. For anyone studying the age of the earth topic, youtube: Douglas Hamp debates from scriptures the gap theory

    • Edwitness

      BC,
      6 literal days! It is not a parable. God does not say it was “like unto”. Evening and morning for each 24 hour day of creation. Just like it is now and always has been during and since the creation. If you can not believe the literal interpretation of that, you can’t believe any the rest of the Bible is literal either. And that would be disastrous for your eternity.
      The gap theory is a lie produced to make people question the verasity of scripture. Just like evolution.

      • Pete

        Edwitness, you can’t judge whether something is non-symbolic or allegory, based on whether the writer or speaker says “like unto.” I mean, Jesus said “I am the door.” He also said of the bread of communion “This is my body”. Is that literal too? Jesus didn’t say “this is like unto my body.” Revelation 19 says a sword is coming out of the mouth of Jesus. Hmmm…doesn’t say “something like a sword.” Do you believe a literal metal sword comes out of Jesus’ mouth?

        In Acts 2 Peter said that the scene playing out at Pentecost WAS THAT which was spoken by Joel, when the moon would turn into blood. Not blood red, Edwitness. BLOOD. Was that literal? Did Peter say that the scene in Acts 2 was “like unto” what Joel said? Or did he say it WAS what Joel said? Don’t bother answering. I already know what you dispies believe.

        Dispies and pre-tribbers shouldn’t talk about things they don’t understand, like literal words. You arrogantly think you have the right to school people on reading the Bible literally. Don’t make me laugh. You guys are the worst offenders.

        • Edwitness

          Thanks Pete,
          You have made my point perfectly. Only by rightly dividing and applying the context of the passage can the Christian discover the interpretation for it. Two things you obviously have no clue how to apply.

          • Pete

            Edwitness, I can read. And I can understand basic English words. I know Jesus was not a physical door or physical bread. And I know Peter deliberately stated “this is that” and then quoted an entire passage from Joel, including the moon becoming blood. He did not say it would turn the color of blood. He said it would become blood.

            So you tell me, since you claim to have a grip on rightly dividing: what did Peter mean, exactly? Please astound me with your great wisdom. Shut me up, Ed. Now is your chance. Why did Peter proclaim “THIS IS THAT?” And what did Peter and Joel mean about the moon? Would the rocky satellite turn into a bloody pulp?

            I won’t hold my breath waiting for a response.

        • Edwitness

          Pete,
          Joel referred to it more than once, right?

          Joel 2:31- The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
          Acts 2:20- The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come
          *
          *
          Joel 3:15-The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem
          Mark 13:24- But in those days, after the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of the heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
          Mt.24:29- Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

          These scriptures pertain to the issue of the blood/darkened moon. It is obvious from these that the moon turning to blood is a description of what the moon looks like when it does not give it’s light during these times. I know this is difficult for you Pete, but this is how you rightly divide the word of truth. You allow the word of God to interpret itself.
          When you take one scripture out of context and try to make a doctrine out of it, you will never get the correct biblical interpretation. And from what I see after reading your comments here, you seem to make a career of that.

          • Pete

            Hi Edwitness, Peter quoted Joel during the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. He told the people that they were watching Joel’s prophecy coming to pass before their very eyes. That is what Peter said. And Joel/Peter said the moon would turn to blood. Not turn a red color or a bloody color. If Joel meant to say the color would be red, he would have said so. YOU are not taking the word of God at face value. Your dispensational blinders are on, and you cannot get out of your Western mindset. These are references to the passing of the sacrificial system. The sun, moon and stars are often used as symbols of Israel throughout the Old Testament.

            There is not a single case in scripture where God used natural eclipses as signs. Every time God used the heavens as a sign or to prove His power/glory, it was a miraculous event and one that nobody could deny.

            As you say, “When you take one scripture out of context and try to make a doctrine out of it, you will never get the correct biblical interpretation.” We can agree to disagree. I don’t agree with the context you are making here, I think it is obvious that Peter was saying Joel’s prophecy was taking place in Acts 2.

  • James

    When Joseph’s brethren recognize him, he already has a Gentile bride.

    • Exactly. Pretrib Rapture.

      • Brother Geoffery;
        I have a question for you that I have been trying to find an answer to for years. The question is: When did the rapture become ‘imminent’. There had to be a time frame when it was not imminent,(before the Cross for example) and then a moment when it now had become imminent. When was that particular moment; when did the rapture BECOME imminent?
        Is this a question you can answer for me?
        Blessings;
        Paul

        • jim black

          Brother Paul,

          From the pre trib perspective, I think a good starting point would be 1 Cor. 15:52 where Paul first reveals this “mystery.” If so, then it should have happened shortly after that. The rapture WILL BE imminent according to Luke 21:28 which is “AFTER the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29)

          • Jim BLack is a Catholic/Emergent Church acolyte whose main mission in life is to STEAL THE BLESSED HOPE of the Pretribulation Rapture from as many Christians as possible. His ONLY argument is Matthew 24, which we have repeatedly shown to be false. Matthew 24 deals with the time AFTER the Rapture of the Church and IN the time of Jacob’s (ISRAEL’S) trouble leading to the SECOND COMING.

            OUR TOP 5 REASONS WHY MATTHEW 24 CANNOT BE TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/our-top-5-reasons-why-matthew-24-cannot-be-talking-about-the-rapture-of-the-church/

            Because he does not rightly divide, he sees NO difference between the Church and Israel. The Rapture of the Church is one event, and the Second Coming is another.

            THE BIBLE BELIEVERS GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/the-bible-believers-guide-to-understanding-the-differences-between-the-rapture-and-the-second-coming/

            He does not want to debate, he only comes to steal. Hold on to the Bible DOCTRINE of the Blessed Hope of the Pretribulation Rapture.

            Post Toasties can NEVER Biblically answer this question: What is the point of forcing the body of Christ to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble?? What is the purpose?? God is not the author of confusion and God specifically gives us the reason why the Jewish Nation of Israel will go through it:

            “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.” Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

            The angel, talking to the Jewish Daniel, said that the 70 weeks are determined upon THY people, the Jews. So according to God’s word, the Jewish Nation of Israel will go through their time to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Have you ever wondered why God calls it the time of JACOB’S trouble? (come now let us REASON together)

            WHAT IS THE POINT OF PUTTING THE BODY OF CHRIST INTO THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE?: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/what-is-the-point-putting-body-of-christ-into-time-jacobs-trouble/

          • jim black

            Geoffrey Grider

            10 May 2016 at 7:20 pm

            GG: Jim BLack is a Catholic/Emergent Church acolyte whose main mission in life is to STEAL THE BLESSED HOPE of the Pretribulation Rapture from as many Christians as possible. His ONLY argument is Matthew 24, which we have repeatedly shown to be false. Matthew 24 deals with the time AFTER the Rapture of the Church and IN the time of Jacob’s (ISRAEL’S) trouble leading to the SECOND COMING.”

            JB: As others have said here, your passion for the word of God and evangelism is most admirable. But every bit of what you just said is “mierda el toros” and you know it. When you can’t handle the truth, the only resort is tactics like this nonsense.

            Geoff: OUR TOP 5 REASONS WHY MATTHEW 24 CANNOT BE TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/our-top-5-reasons-why-matthew-24-cannot-be-talking-about-the-rapture-of-the-church/

            JB: I’m still want to know why you think Jesus is going to come TWO MORE times under the same conditions (1 Thes. 4:15-17 and Matt. 24:30,31), yet Paul says He’s going to come “a second time.” (Heb. 9:28)

            GG: Because he does not rightly divide, he sees NO difference between the Church and Israel. The Rapture of the Church is one event, and the Second Coming is another.

            JB: O brother Geoff, please be assured I see the difference. What you don’t see is that Jew and gentile are the elect. There is no NT teaching separating Jew from Gentile respecting election. We are ONE in Christ. No?

            GG: He does not want to debate, he only comes to steal. Hold on to the Bible DOCTRINE of the Blessed Hope of the Pretribulation Rapture.

            JB: This is hilarious, my friend:) I don’t want to debate??? You rarely respond meaningfully to major points or questions. Your only responses usually end up as “not rightly dividing the word of truth,” he’s an “emerging catholic acolyte” (whatever that means), post toastie (half the people here are PTs), hater of truth, or some other non-sensical remark.

            So you want to debate? Great! It’s never too late:) You can start by debating the points I just listed above and please be sure to back your points with KJV 1611 scripture. OK? Have at it, my friend.

            GG: Post Toasties can NEVER Biblically answer this question: What is the point of forcing the body of Christ to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble?? What is the purpose??

            JB: Great question. You never asked me. The purpose of suffering and tribulation is for the purifying and refining of Christ’s bride who WILL BE found spotless and blameless before Him when He comes (1 Cor. 1:8, 1 Thes. 3:13,5:23, 2 Pet. 3:14). See also Dan. 12:10. The bride in general, is hardly ready for the Bridegroom. This is why she must go through trials and tribulation, to be made ready. “Through much tribulation we must enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Acts. 14:22). Jesus said the same thing (John 16:33).

            Judgment begins with the household of God (1 Pet. 4:17). TRIBULATION PRODUCES PERSEVERANCE, WHICH PRODUCES CHARACTER, WHICH PRODUCES HOPE…” (Rom. 5:3.) Persecutions, sufferings,and tribulations are APPOINTED to the household of God. This is a message rarely heard from the pulpits in America. The NT elect church is both Jew and Gentile, but the sin nature is still holding back many and bringing righteous judgments to purify and refine them. Suffering in the flesh causes us to cease from sin (1 Pet. 2:20,21, 4:1, 12-19). Judgment through tribulation and suffering on a sinning church is the only thing that will purify, refine, make spotless and blameless the bride of Christ.

            Using a concordance, look up the many times suffering, trials, afflictions, persecutions, hardships, scourging and tribulation are applied to the believer.

            “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.” Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

            GG: WHAT IS THE POINT OF PUTTING THE BODY OF CHRIST INTO THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE?:

            JB: Do you want to ask that question to our brothers and sisters in the middle east? Jesus is coming ONLY for a bride that is spotless, blameless and holy (1 Thes. 3:13, 2 Pet. 3:14). Do you really think that He is excited by the temperature of the church in America today? Read His letters to the churches. No, my friend, her act needs cleaning up and He will do it.

          • Actually, Jesus says that at the time of the Rapture, the Church will be “poor, naked, miserable and blind”. Your false notion that the Rapture can only take place when the Church is “clean and pure” is nonsense. The FALLING AWAY from the truth precedes the Rapture, not a time of “cleansing and purity”.

            Want to know when the Rapture will take place if the Church has to be “clean and pure” first? Never.

          • Edwitness

            Jim Black,
            I looked up your references for why the bride needs to suffer and have tribulation in the time of Jacob’s trouble and found exactly what I thought I would. Not one of them says the bride is to suffer tribulation in order that she might be without spot and blameless. Not one!

            1stCor.1:8- Who shall confirm you unto the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

            1st Thes.3:13- To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL His saints. (Interesting you would use one of the scriptures that shows His coming at the end of the trib with ALL His saints already with Him coming from heaven to earth. And to the end of what. To the end of the love that we have one towards another. Vs.12)

            1st Thes.5:23- And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

            2nd Peter 3:14- Wherefore, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found in peace, without spot, and blameless. (Look for what things? A new heaven and a new earth. Vs.13. Not suffering in the trib)

            Daniel 12:10- Many will be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

            Other than reading these scriptures, what a complete waste of time it is to follow up with your comment. You read into the passage what you want to just like any cultist does. Geoffrey is exactly right about you. Sit down and shut up.

          • Emery

            Actually, NO, Jesus NEVER said word one about a rapture, OR about a church. Only in false translations of God’s word does the word church appear, and the word “rapture” NEVER appears in ANY translation even once. You folks read things into the scriptures that IS NOT THERE. What you THINK is a mention of a rapture, is a mention ONLY of the REMNANT of the 144,000 being taken up to be with Jesus to co-rule Earth, just before Armageddon takes place, AFTER the tribulation has destroyed all religions and their members. Stop reading things into the scriptures that is not there, and STOP believing what your religions tell you. They are all prodigious liars. They DON’T teach the truth about God, Jesus, or God’s inspired word. Choose to ignore these truths, and you are in for quite a surprise. The tribulation’s beginning is marked by the eighth great world power destroying all religions and religionists. Those religions are the “whore of Babylon” since they all “fornicate” with all the governments of the Earth. In the final battle, those governments are destroyed. It all happens very quickly. You’re all just fooling yourselves and engaging in wishful thinking, but your thinking is all fantasy, not reality.

          • jim black

            GG: Actually, Jesus says that at the time of the Rapture, the Church will be “poor, naked, miserable and blind”. Your false notion that the Rapture can only take place when the Church is “clean and pure” is nonsense. The FALLING AWAY from the truth precedes the Rapture, not a time of “cleansing and purity”.

            JB: It is not the entire church that is “poor, naked, blind, miserable and wretched, rather a segment of it. Not all Christians will be lukewarm at the rapture.

            You assume these saints will exist at the time of the rapture because you think John being called to “Come up here” is the rapture. (To pre tribs, this is code for rapture). Please Support it with scripture, if you can. OTOH, Why couldn’t the rapture be at hand when another voice says the same thing to the two witnesses? (Rev. 11:11) Note that they are called up hither AFTER their 3 1/2 year tenure expires as witnesses (Rev. 11:7). And it’s right after that when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdom of Christ and at which time He rewards the saints (Rev. 11:15-17). So why can’t Rev. 11:11 be the rapture? “COME UP HITHER”

            GG:Want to know when the Rapture will take place if the Church has to be “clean and pure” first? Never.

            JB: So what do you think 1 Thes. 3:13 and 2 Pet. 3:14 mean?

            There’s something else that I think has escaped the notice of pre tribs. Paul says in 1 Thes. 3:13 that God may, “establish your hearts blameless in holiness at the coming of the Lord Jesus WITH ALL HIS SAINTS (Obviously,this could not happen at a pre trib rapture). This has to refer to all saints from all ages except those whom will be found blameless in holiness at the end of the tribulation. Who could these be but the saints who endured to the end? (Matt. 24:13) The Greek for endure means, “to remain, tarry behind, to persevere in one’s faith.” (Thayer’s Lexicon #5278) This dovetails with 1 Thes. 4:17 where those who are alive and “REMAIN” will be caught up with the saints that Jesus brings with Him as it says in 1 Thes. 3:13. The Greek for remain (perileipomai) means, “to be left over, to survive.” What could it be that these saints survived but the great tribulation? I know you think lexicons are garbage but try to repent of that:)

            Lord bless

      • Jesus is lord

        Geoffrey I don’t undermine your work for God, but I just don’t see strong support for a pretrib rapture.

        “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV)

        The falling away is NOT the rapture. It is people, including so-called Christians, being deceived because they weren’t true to begin with; as I mentioned above.

        How can there be a pre-trib rapture based on this verse ????

      • Pete

        Geoffrey, you wrote //Actually, Jesus says that at the time of the Rapture, the Church will be “poor, naked, miserable and blind”.//

        No. This describes the state of the 1st century assembly of the Laodiceans found in Revelation 3:17. You are just making up stuff. Nowhere does God say the entire worldwide church is going to be in that condition at the time of the rapture.

        There are literally 1000s of faithful Christians dying today in other countries. Please don’t spit on them by claiming they are part of some so-called dispie invented time period called the “Laodicean church age.” Just because guys like Joel Osteen are running around. The church is world-wide, not just in America. (By the way, YOU go out on the streets and preach the gospel, boldly…are YOU in this Laodicean church???)

  • Robin

    Arguing with unbelievers is pointless. Anyone who starts their rejection of the pre tribulation translation of the church with the John Darby myth is revealing their ignorance and preconceived bias against truth. For those who want some excellent bible teaching on this subject look up “grace to you” on you tube. John MacArthur teaches the word of God and upon this rock the false teachers will stumble.

  • Edwitness

    Amen Robin,
    The pre trib rapture has been taught since Paul revealed the “mystery”. I would offer these excerpts from Lamb and Lion ministries;

    “The reason the Pre-Tribulation concept of the timing of the Rapture was delayed in its refinement until the 19th Century was because the Roman Catholic Church adopted St. Augustine’s amillennial viewpoint of prophecy hook-line-and-sinker around 430 AD. In his book, The City of God, Augustine spiritualized Bible prophecy and then argued that the Millennium began at the Cross and would continue until the Second Coming.

    This spiritualizing approach to the interpretation of Bible prophecy proceeded to dominate theology for the next thousand years. Protestants adopted it after the Reformation and expressed it in the Postmillennial view that emerged in the mid-17th Century. Both Amillennialism and Postmillennialism are based on the assumption that Bible prophecy does not mean what it says.

    The discovery of the distinction which the Bible makes between the Rapture and the Second Coming had to await the revival of the application of literal interpretation to Bible prophecy. I say “revival” because the writings of the Church Fathers during the first 300 years of church history (100 AD to 400 AD) reveal that they interpreted prophecy for its plain sense meaning. Accordingly, they were nearly all Premillennialists. In fact, Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) went so far as to suggest that anyone with a different viewpoint was heretical.1

    The revival of literal interpretation began in earnest among the Puritans in the 17th Century, and it quickly led to an understanding that the Rapture would be an event separate from and preceding the Second Coming. Puritan leader, Increase Mather (1639-1723), argued “that the saints would be caught up into the air” and thus escape the world’s final conflagration.2

    One of the early Church Fathers, The Shepherd of Hermas, writing in the early 2nd Century, makes an interesting observation about “the great tribulation that is coming.” He says, “If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.”15

    In medieval times evidence of pretribulational thinking can be found in the recently discovered sermon attributed to Ephraem the Syrian.16 This sermon, which was written sometime between the 4th and 6th Centuries, encourages believers to prepare themselves for meeting the Lord because “all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” Scholars believe this text was derived from the writings of the original Ephraem who lived from 306 to 373 AD. He was one of the leading theologians of the early Byzantine Church.17

    It is very likely that there were always some forms of premillennialism and pretribulational thought throughout the Middle Ages but, if so, these viewpoints had to be expressed underground because they violated Catholic dogma. Sects like the Albigenses, Lombards, and the Waldenses were attracted to a literal interpretation of the Bible, but little is know about their detailed beliefs because the Catholic Church declared their writings to be heretical and destroyed them.”

    See more at: http://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-origin-of-the-concept-of-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/#sthash.IvM5cTJc.dpuf

    So you are correct Robin that it may well be pointless to argue with those who refuse to see the truth of the pre trib rapture. They may well be saved, but they are sadly mistaken in their interpretation on this subject.

    Blessings:-}

  • Geoffrey;
    You have in this article inserted the false notion that the parable of the fig tree is about the rebirth of the nation of Israel. There is nothing in the words of Jesus in that passage, or in the entirety of the teachings of the Bible that would indicate the rebirth of Israel has anything to do with what is being discussed in that parable. Or, for that matter, that Israel is represented by the fig tree in the Scriptures in the first place! I address this issue in this article:

    https://pbenson.me/2016/05/13/the-fig-tree-parable-is-not-about-israels-rebirth/

    Thank you for taking the time to consider it;
    Blessings
    Paul

  • Edwitness

    Paul,
    You said; “Ponder this: If the fig tree represented Israel would Jesus have cursed the fig tree and condemned it to never bear fruit again? It withered up from the root and died. How does that fit the picture of Israel’s prophetic rebirth? Not a match; and I don’t think Jesus would have given us an image so out of sync like that if Israel was typified by the fig tree. He’s sharper than that.”

    The reason the fig tree (Israel) was cursed is that they trusted in the law to save them. And while Israel will attempt to bring those back they will never bring forth the fruit of God again.
    The law works wrath and therefore through it no one can bear fruit for salvation. Gal.3:21. That system was cursed the way Jesus cursed the tree. It would never bear fruit for the righteousness that is of faith. Paul speaks to this issue when he says that he kept the law “blameless”. Phil.3:6. He said that the righteousness that one receives from keeping the law will not save you. Phil.3:7-10 We are saved by the righteousness that is of faith. Rom.4:13-16. Gal.3:10 explains that those who are under the law are under a curse. Just like that fig tree.

    And you added this; “Notice he says ‘and all the trees’. If the fig tree is Israel then all the trees would be what; all the nations? Are all nations to be re-birthed? Surely not. The rapture crowd has a serious problem there, and that’s why most stay clear of Luke on this parable. They can’t quite squeeze their distraction into it.”

    You focus on one passage for your position. But, when you consider all of them together we come to a very different conclusion. It is necessary to bring them together for a complete understanding of what Jesus taught. The Mathew account for instance, gives us a more specific reading of what is meant. He focuses specifically on the fig tree, Israel. In fact, the other trees are not even mentioned in Mathew or Mark. The mention of “all the trees” in Luke speaks generally to the signs Jesus already addressed, while at the same time speaking specifically, in accord with Mt. And Mark of the sign of the fig tree, Israel, putting forth it’s leaves.

    “First, if we are to watch for any signs which must yet be fulfilled before Jesus returns their doctrine of his ‘imminent Return’ is shot in the head and must be laid to rest. Jesus would not have told us to watch for signs the Church was not going to be around to see.
    Second, if we are told by Jesus to watch for events which transpire during the final three and a half years that would mean the Church would have to still be here, and then their rapture myth is also gunned down. (R.I.P.)”

    Jesus told the Jews to watch for those signs. Not the church. I’m sure you have heard the saying that we know Thanksgiving is near because we see Christmas decorations (signs) going up everywhere, right? It is the same for the rapture. We see those things that are setting up the trib events happening all around us. That is why we know the pre trib rapture is near.
    That it is Imminent.

    The time left for the great trib is “time, times, and half a time”, “1260 days”, and “forty two months”. There is no mention of a seven year period for the final great trib in the New Testament. The first half of the final “week” in Daniel’s prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. When He was crucified He became the final sacrifice for sin. Heb.10:11,12,26. Therefore “causing the sacrifices and oblations to cease”. Dan.9:27. Meaning they no longer carry any of the power they had under the law. They have ceased to be a “purifying of the flesh” for the Jewish people. Heb.9:13

    MARANATHA!!

    • Pete

      Edwitness, unfortunately for you (and all who have arbitrarily decided that 1948 was what Jesus was talking about), the day of reckoning is coming soon. And I am afraid you are going to be sorely disappointed. You have until 2021 for your mythical rapture to take place. Or, you need to come up with a new Magical Date. Perhaps 1967 will work? Buy you another 19 years? Or you can always hope for a temple to be built. I can just see you now…”Wait! Wait! The statehood isn’t what Jesus meant, even though we swore up and down for DECADES that was the meaning! It was the temple. We swear this time!”

      The saddest thing is that there are a number of honest Bible-believing Christians who have staked their faith on this date, and the statehood of Israel, as proof of God-breathed text. And if something doesn’t come to pass real soon, we might see a mass exodus away from the faith. All thanks to guys like Hal Lindsey. And guys like you, who continue to perpetuate this falsehood. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

      • Edwitness

        Pete,
        Where do you come up with those numbers? How long a generation is? Take your best guess.

        No one had better be “staking their faith on this date” or any other date for that matter. I do not know of a single pre trib believer or preacher who stakes their faith anywhere but firmly in the savior, Jesus Christ.

        Can you name a single believer that “stakes their faith on a date”? I can’t. And if anyone leaves the faith, they never had it to begin with. 1st John 2:19

        Your welcome 🙂

        • Pete

          Ed, I have heard numerous YouTube preachers (like JD Farag for example) state that the 1948 statehood of Israel proves the Bible is the word of God. I can show you lists of “prophecy watchers” who say we ARE the last generation before Jesus comes. Who get on YouTube day after day and proclaim it. Who “encourage” their brothers and sisters to hold fast because Jesus is coming. In their minds it is a DONE DEAL. Case closed. We are it.

          I take it that you agree this is a bad idea. But Mr. Grider does it too!

          And yes I am going with what people think – that a generation is 80 years max. Look, the whole thing is ridiculous!!! The New Testament says nothing about Israel becoming a nation again and how it portends the end of the world and the return of Jesus. The longer time goes by, the more obvious your error will be.

          • Edwitness

            Pete,
            No. You are mistaken. I do believe and tell others that Jesus will indeed come very soon for His people in the rapture. And that we are the final generation. What I do not do is try to calculate just what a generation is. And unless Jesus takes me home before I get old 🙂 I expect to be “caught up” in the pre trib rapture as the apostle Paul said.

            Ezekiel 37 describes for us exactly what happened in God bringing Israel back from the dead. Also Amos 9:14,15
            In Zech.14:1-ff we see the Lord saying that Israel will be a nation again when the day of the Lord comes. That is now because we see Israel here again after approx. 2000 years of diaspora. And the “day of the Lord” is after the “time of Jacob’s trouble”. This was also spoken of in Luke 21:24. And seeing that the “time of the Gentiles” continues, we know that the diaspora He was speaking of is from the time of the 1st century forward to Israel’s return as a nation holding Jerusalem today.

            We will see the Lord in the rapture imminently. The blessed hope.

            And if you don’t get it now I will explain it on the way up, ok? 🙂
            See you there or in the air!

        • Pete

          ed, not to belabor the point but I am infinitely curious about people when they say this: “I do believe and tell others that Jesus will indeed come very soon for His people in the rapture.”

          What do you mean by “very soon”? Could it be 1000 years from now?

          • Emery

            Pete;
            I know that you only believe what you religion teaches you, instead of what God’s word teaches, but here goes. Jesus will NEVER physically set foot on Earth again, he “returned” one hundred and two years ago ascending to his throne, and has been ruling ever since. All the signs of his presence are fulfilled. No “rapture” exists, nor will it ever. Either before or after the tribulation. If it was after, you wouldn’t see it anyway, because God’s word says all religions and religionists are to be exterminated, since they stick to false religion, instead of to God’s word. They THINK they’re sticking to God’s word, but instead, they use a falsely translated version of it. What you people THINK is a “rapture” is actually Jesus taking the still alive remnant (only a few thousand) of the 144,000 to join the rest of them who have been resurrected to heaven, to fight Armageddon. They (the 144,000, and Jesus are the ONLY people ever to be “born again” of spirit, your religion lies to you) are the only ones to ever go to heaven. They are the only ones who are party to the New Covenant. The great crowd is part of it, but lives on Earth in paradise forever, after Armageddon and Judgement day. That ought to blow the top of your heads off. But, it’s EXACTLY what God’s word says, and teaches. You will, of course, not believe it, because it’s God’s word saying it, and NOT your false religion. Try anyway. Your life depends on it.

          • Edwitness

            Pete,
            I said; “And that we are the final generation”. And “I expect to be “caught up” in the pre trib rapture as the apostle Paul said”. 🙂

          • Edwitness

            Pete,
            I am sorry. I sent the message to Jim Black and I thought I sent it to you. It is a conversation I have had with Paul as well. Here it is;

            Paul B,

            I stand corrected. In my haste to correctly defend the pre trib view I misspoke. I believe that Paul understood the rapture to be imminent as he said, only when the falling away would happen first. That is why he wrote to the Thes to relieve their fears that it was upon them or imminent, until the event he describes for them happens. Paul knew what was necassary for this event to become imminent. And that was for the apostasy, the falling away to happen. Not the revealing of the AC.
            His description of the events surrounding the pre trib rapture are found in 2Thes 2:1-5 generally. In vs’s 6-ff he gives a more specific layout for these events. He says that there is one that “withholds”. Then he says that he, the man of sin, must be held back until he, the withholder, is taken out of the way. It is the church that has been given the ministry of reconciliation and it is this church, our dispensation, that holds back the wicked one from coming to power. This is because as Jesus said “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”, the church. Mt. 16:18.
            The church must be taken out of the way for the man of sin to be revealed. For if the church is here during the trib Jesus’ words to Peter would be a lie. Rev.13:7 says that the AC makes war with the saints (in your view the church) and overcomes them. This can not be referring to the church age believers of which we are a part, based upon what Jesus said to Peter.
            There are many other reasons to believe that the pre trib position is the correct one. But, it is not necassary for us to agree in order to have fellowship. You can be wrong about it and still be a true brother in Christ. Praise God!

            And this;

            There are other events that had to take place also, such as the return of the Jews to their land, in order for the rapture to be imminent as well. No nation of Israel, no “time of Jacob’s trouble”.

            Paul’s response;

            edwitness;
I am glad you can see there were events that had to take place first in order for the resurrection /catching away to BECOME imminent. My purpose in using the one example of Peter’s death as an old man was to show this event was not possible in the lifetime and ministry of Paul. It would have been error for him to teach as imminent something that was not possible to be imminent.
            You have admitted the nation of Israel had to be reborn for this event to become imminent. The Holy Spirit would not have told Paul to believe and teach (and write in his letters) as ‘imminent’ something which not possible to be imminent. I know I am being terrible redundant, but upon this point hangs the very issue of whether or not the doctrine of the ‘imminent return’ is correct or not. And the right answer is NOT!
            I think if you prayerfully follow through the improved line of reasoning you are on you will come to the same conclusions I have.
            Blessings upon the Body of Jesus Christ;
Paul

            My answer to Paul;

            Paul B,

            Thanks, but I said I misspoke, not misunderstood. The conclusions I have that I related to you do stand after following the line of the whole counsel of the scripture. There is no way the pre trib rapture is not now imminent. Since the issues that were to preceed it have since (Israel) and are now (apostasy) happening.
            Blessings:-}

            Jim, the pre trib rapture is now imminent. The moon turned blood red last year. Four times in the period. From shemitahbloodmoons.net website;

            “How often does a Tetrad of Bloods which all fall on Jewish feast days and in a Shemitah Year occur? In the top left column you will find two list of years. The first list of years show the years that a Tetrad of four Blood Moons all occur on Jewish feast days. This list is from Mark Biltz’s book on the Blood Moons. This has happened just nine times since the time of Christ. The second list of years show the years in which a Tetrad of Blood Moon occur in Shemitah Years. This has happened only 10 times in 2000 years. Only the years 2014-2015 are in both list. So this is the first time in 2000 years that a Tetrad of four Blood Moons has occurred all on Jewish feast days and in a Shemitah Year! An unprecedented event.”

            Is it possible that we have seen Joel 2:31 fulfilled? I believe it is possible that we have. This verse says it will happen before. Not after. It seems that we are to have these events at both ends of the trib. This along with the other events I have shown express the fact that the pre trib rapture is indeed imminent. 🙂

    • Edwitness;
      You totally ignored the main point of the article, which is that there is NO BIBICAL FOUNDATION for the notion the fig tree represents Israel in the Bible. The Bible teaches no such thing! If you believe it that’s because some man told you to. This is a made up by man concept, and therefor any commentary in support of that notion becomes mere opinion.

      In your attempt to answer my article you put the cursing of the fig tree as symbolic of the law. it was not the law being cursed but the TREE! Jesus said no one would ever eat the fruit of the TREE again. This cannot be Israel because they will indeed bare fruit again. You side-stepped the point with a straw-man argument.

      YOU SAID: The mention of “all the trees” in Luke speaks generally to the signs Jesus already addressed, while at the same time speaking specifically, in accord with Mt. And Mark of the sign of the fig tree, Israel, putting forth it’s leaves. YOU GOT THIS WHERE?
      This opinion of yours (and that’s all it is – opinion) ALSO is relegated to moot point by the fact THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH ISRAEL IS THE FIG TREE – MAN MADE THAT UP. I have studied every verse that uses the words fig tree. There is no support for that concept anywhere in the Bible!

      You said the rapture is ‘imminent’. You always hear rapture theorists saying God revealed to Paul the rapture was imminent, that Paul believed it was imminent, taught this to his followers, and wrote his letters with this concept included in them. All this is a LIE of the rapture theory teachers. I show this concept to be a provable falsehood in this article.

      https://pbenson.me/2016/05/06/bible-proof-the-rapture-theory-is-false/

      If you can read this article and still believe God spoke to Paul that the rapture was imminent, and that he believed this, taught this, and wrote this in his letters, then you are in a very dangerous condition spiritually.
      May the Lord lead us all into his perfect truth.
      Blessings;
      Paul

  • Edwitness

    Paul,
    The fact that Paul taught the Thes. The rapture was imminent can be seen in their fear that somehow they had missed it. 2Thes.2:2. You can be sure this is speaking of the pre trib rapture because when Jesus comes at the end of the trib “every eye shall see Him”. Rev.1:7.

    You asked “You got this where?” Straight out of the scriptures. There are no contradictions in the Bible and the way you have chosen to interpret this would be a contradiction.

    Israel will never bear the fruit of the kind they did under the law again. That fruit was works oriented. The fruit they will bear is to be that of faith.

    The cursing of the fig tree, was it arbitrary? No! Did it have significance where Israel is concerned? Yes! Then it should be simple to see that the fig tree relates to Israel.

    I am so happy for you that you have thoroughly studied this out, but one can see the fig tree as Israel if they have eyes to see with. Here is a little test for you to see whether you have those eyes to see. Or not.
    When the scripture says that in Jesus’ first miracle at Cana He “manifested forth His glory”, what does it mean? In what way did He accomplish this in the story?
    🙂

    • Edwitness;
      I see that instead of addressing the issue of the doctrine of ‘imminent return’ proved false, you raise another straw-man (not relevant) argument. This is a normal tactic used when one refuses to face truth which shows him to be in error.

      You said: ‘Paul taught the Thes. The rapture was imminent’. This is an outright lie. The fact that Peter was still alive meant the resurrection / catching away WAS NOT POSSIBLE during the ministry of the Apostle Paul. Either you did not read my article proving the “Imminent Return” is a falsehood or have chosen not to receive the truth. Either way you are stating proven lies in your comments.

      I hope you would consider another look at the issue. The Lord would not have you to be saying things that are not true brother, and I have provided you with proof of that falsehood. What you do with that information is up to you.
      I am not interested in addressing your straw-man argument.
      This will conclude our discussion.
      In Jesus Christ;
      Paul

      • Edwitness

        Paul B,
        Proven to who? You? That doesn’t prove anything to me. I obviously do not agree with your version of the truth. Why then did Paul say to them “That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come…”?
        This obviously speaks to the issue of Christ’s coming. If it is the second coming they would not have been able to be deceived. Therefore it must have been in reference to the pre trib rapture.
        That is my understanding.
        You do not need to get ridiculous about this issue by accusing someone of “lying”. The fact that you wrote books on the subject in order to prove pre trib rapture believers wrong says a lot. This is not a salvation issue. It is doctrine and that makes it important for our understanding. But, it has no bearing on who Jesus is and the work of salvation He accomplished for us, right?
        And you will probably find most pre trib believers as difficult to convince as I am. You see, we believe we have the Spirit too.

        This will conclude our discussion,
        Your brother in Christ,
        Ed

        See you there or in the air! 🙂 I couldn’t help that one. Lighten up. Jesus loves you and so do I.

        • jim black

          Brother EdW,

          Don’t mean to butt in, but Here is why I don’t believe the rapture is imminent until, “After the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29)

          The pre trib view of the rapture is that it is “imminent” and can happen at “any momemt.” The latter term is actually redundant because that is what imminent means. Dictionaries define imminent as, over-hanging, close at hand, near, about to happen, pending, threat- eningly near.” On the other hand, the post tribulation narrative has signs preceding the rapture at the end of the tribulation.

          In both first and second Thessalonians (51-52 AD) , Paul wrote to the saints that the time would come when Jesus will come and gather up (rapture) the church. Apparently, this was the first time he revealed this future event. Then in his first letter to the Corinthians (56-57 AD), he called it a “mystery.” (1 Cor. 15:52).

          But if the rapture is truly imminent, and means that it could happen at “any moment,” then based on this, along with the definitions above, it should have happened very soon after Paul revealed it. Imminent, or any moment, means that a known event will happen very soon once it becomes known, not something that can happen at any moment over an indefinite period of time. The full force of Hurricane Sandy was imminent an hour before it hit the Jersey shore, not a week earlier when it was gaining strength in the eastern Atlantic. So it could not be imminent, or arrive at any moment, except towards the end of one hour. The arrival of the center became more and more imminent as the waves grew higher and the winds got stronger. Signs preceded the full force of the hurricane. Signs will precede the imminent return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31, Luke 21:25-28, Rev. 6:14-17).

          Christians who “are alive and remain,” at the time (1 Thes. 4:15,17), will experience the imminent return of Jesus and the rapture. In Rom. 8:23, Paul refers to the “adoption” as the “redemption of our body.” In Luke 21:28, Jesus says that our physical”redemption” is imminent AFTER the sun is darkened and the moon turns blood red, which is, “AFTER the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29, Luke 21:25,26). The parallel verse to this is Matt. 24:33: “So you also when you see all these things, know that it is near, at the doors!” In Thayer’s Lexicon the word “imminent” is used in the definition of “near.” (Greek – eggys)

          A one time event like the rapture cannot be imminent over hundreds of years. But this is what the church is being taught.

          • Edwitness

            Jim Black,
            This is what I said to Paul B. In answer to why the rapture is imminent.

            Paul B,

            I stand corrected. In my haste to correctly defend the pre trib view I misspoke. I believe that Paul understood the rapture to be imminent as he said, only when the falling away would happen first. That is why he wrote to the Thes to relieve their fears that it was upon them or imminent, until the event he describes for them happens. Paul knew what was necassary for this event to become imminent. And that was for the apostasy, the falling away to happen. Not the revealing of the AC.
            His description of the events surrounding the pre trib rapture are found in 2Thes 2:1-5 generally. In vs’s 6-ff he gives a more specific layout for these events. He says that there is one that “withholds”. Then he says that he, the man of sin, must be held back until he, the withholder, is taken out of the way. It is the church that has been given the ministry of reconciliation and it is this church, our dispensation, that holds back the wicked one from coming to power. This is because as Jesus said “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”, the church. Mt. 16:18.
            The church must be taken out of the way for the man of sin to be revealed. For if the church is here during the trib Jesus’ words to Peter would be a lie. Rev.13:7 says that the AC makes war with the saints (in your view the church) and overcomes them. This can not be referring to the church age believers of which we are a part, based upon what Jesus said to Peter.
            There are many other reasons to believe that the pre trib position is the correct one. But, it is not necassary for us to agree in order to have fellowship. You can be wrong about it and still be a true brother in Christ. Praise God!

            And this;

            There are other events that had to take place also, such as the return of the Jews to their land, in order for the rapture to be imminent as well. No nation of Israel, no “time of Jacob’s trouble”.

            Paul’s response;

            edwitness;
I am glad you can see there were events that had to take place first in order for the resurrection /catching away to BECOME imminent. My purpose in using the one example of Peter’s death as an old man was to show this event was not possible in the lifetime and ministry of Paul. It would have been error for him to teach as imminent something that was not possible to be imminent.
            You have admitted the nation of Israel had to be reborn for this event to become imminent. The Holy Spirit would not have told Paul to believe and teach (and write in his letters) as ‘imminent’ something which not possible to be imminent. I know I am being terrible redundant, but upon this point hangs the very issue of whether or not the doctrine of the ‘imminent return’ is correct or not. And the right answer is NOT!
            I think if you prayerfully follow through the improved line of reasoning you are on you will come to the same conclusions I have.
            Blessings upon the Body of Jesus Christ;
Paul

            My answer to Paul;

            Paul B,

            Thanks, but I said I misspoke, not misunderstood. The conclusions I have that I related to you do stand after following the line of the whole counsel of the scripture. There is no way the pre trib rapture is not now imminent. Since the issues that were to preceed it have since (Israel) and are now (apostasy) happening.
            Blessings:-}

            Jim, the pre trib rapture is now imminent. The moon turned blood red last year. Four times in the period. From shemitahbloodmoons.net website;

            “How often does a Tetrad of Bloods which all fall on Jewish feast days and in a Shemitah Year occur? In the top left column you will find two list of years. The first list of years show the years that a Tetrad of four Blood Moons all occur on Jewish feast days. This list is from Mark Biltz’s book on the Blood Moons. This has happened just nine times since the time of Christ. The second list of years show the years in which a Tetrad of Blood Moon occur in Shemitah Years. This has happened only 10 times in 2000 years. Only the years 2014-2015 are in both list. So this is the first time in 2000 years that a Tetrad of four Blood Moons has occurred all on Jewish feast days and in a Shemitah Year! An unprecedented event.”

            Is it possible that we have seen Joel 2:31 fulfilled? I believe it is possible that we have. This verse says it will happen before. Not after. It seems that we are to have these events at both ends of the trib. This along with the other events I have shown express the fact that the pre trib rapture is indeed imminent. 🙂

            MARANATHA!!!

          • jim black

            Greetings Ed,

            Thanks for sharing your view on this issue. Yes, there was a series of four blood moons, but no darkening of the sun or falling stars as Joel and Jesus record in their prophesies(Joel 2:31 and Matt. 24:29). That these things will happen at both ends of the tribulation, to me, doesn’t seem to fit because right after these celestial events comes the sign of the Son of Man followed by the coming of the Lord.

            (Paul makes no mention of these events in any of his letters).

            Not only that but along with these events will be “distress of nations, roaring of the sea and waves and men’s heart failing because of the fear of what is coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.” (Luke 21:25,26) I don’t think these things happen BEFORE, only AFTER the tribulation.

            Let me go back to my initial point. By definition, the imminency of a known event means that it will happen at “sny moment,” not something that finds fulfilment at some point down through the ages. I think the definition of it makes a pre trib imminency impossible.

            Lord bless

          • Edwitness

            Jim Black,
            There were indeed two, count them two solar eclipses during this same period.
            Total Solar Eclipse, March 20, 2015
            Partial Solar Eclipse
            Sep.13 2015

          • jim black

            Ed: There were indeed two, count them two solar eclipses during this same period.
            Total Solar Eclipse, March 20, 2015
            Partial Solar Eclipse
            Sep.13 2015

            Greetings ED,

            Yes, you are right, but I’m not sure that either qualify as the darkening that Jesus and Joel were speaking about. But where were the “falling stars, nations in distress with perplexity, roaring of the sea, men’s hearts failing from fear and the expectation of what is to come?”

    • Pete

      Ed, //one can see the fig tree as Israel if they have eyes to see with//

      This is what people always say when they lack BIBLICAL support. LOL. “If you were as wise as I am, you would see it.” Good one! Nice pompous arrogant tone! See what this crappy doctrine leads to?

      //The fact that Paul taught the Thes. The rapture was imminent can be seen in their fear that somehow they had missed it.//

      Nonsense! The Thessalonians feared “that the day of Christ [was] at hand.” 2 Thess 2:2. Not a single word is uttered about any “rapture” or “catching away to heaven” by Paul anywhere near this passage, and he had plenty of opportunity to say that.

      Do you read the Bible itself and believe what it actually says? It seems you would rather just believe the Official Story you have already been told because you are so smitten with the idea that Jesus is going to whisk you to heaven before anything really bad happens.

      Sounds like you think 1948 is the Magical Date. I still don’t understand what “this generation” is. I am 45 yaers old. Am I “this generation”? Or is it the WW2 generation, which is fading away? Or perhaps it’s my parents’ generation which is 70 years old? Whatever.

      • Pete;
        Excellent observation on the fig tree comment! I get response like that all the time. It is truly evidence of a weak position. I think it does a lot of good (discernment building) when people see this lack of validity in the support put forth for the rapture myth. One of the greatest reasons I left the pre-trib view behind was the preaching of it was so full of unsupported statements and Scripture twisting that it seemed an embarrassment to me to get behind it. Even as a baby Christian I could see it was not sound Bible teaching!

        The prophesy Jesus gave about the death of Peter as an old man is solid proof the rapture was not imminent in the days of Paul’s ministry, and he did not believe it nor teach it! To reject that truth is nothing short of willful ignorance, which is a trait you must embrace to hold on to the myth of the pre-trib theory when there is so much solid evidence it is not correct doctrine.

        A point I touch on in my book ‘The Rapture Theory” (available for free download at mu site) is that rapture theorists change the words in 1Thess ‘the day of Christ is at hand’ to read ‘the day of Christ is past’ like they were worried they had missed something. (most new versions also corrupt this verse)

        Read properly, and without the pre-trib error inserted into it, the passage actually says ‘let no one tell you the day of Christ is IMMINENT, for it wont arrive until AFTER the appearance of Antichrist! That is what the underlying Greek word for ‘at hand’ means – imminent! Paul was actually rebuking the notion of imminence, NOT promoting it. If you are concerned about something ‘at hand’ are you concerned about something that has come and gone? Absolutely not. If you told someone, “Hey, my birthday is at hand!” would you be telling them they MISSED your birthday? Only if you were talking in rapture-speak.

        Thanks Pete for your efforts and the sound reasoning you put forth in your comments. Like I said those who read the contrast of sound theory against weak and unsupported fluff are steered toward the truth. Your efforts are having more effect than you realize.
        Blessings
        Paul

        • Edwitness

          Paul B,
          I stand corrected. In my haste to correctly defend the pre trib view I misspoke. I believe that Paul understood the rapture to be imminent as he said, only when the falling away would happen first. That is why he wrote to the Thes to relieve their fears that it was upon them or imminent, until the event he describes for them happens. Paul knew what was necassary for this event to become imminent. And that was for the apostasy, the falling away to happen. Not the revealing of the AC.

          His description of the events surrounding the pre trib rapture are found in 2Thes 2:1-5 generally. In vs’s 6-ff he gives a more specific layout for these events. He says that there is one that “withholds”. Then he says that he, the man of sin, must be held back until he, the withholder, is taken out of the way. It is the church that has been given the ministry of reconciliation and it is this church, our dispensation, that holds back the wicked one from coming to power. This is because as Jesus said “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”, the church. Mt. 16:18.

          The church must be taken out of the way for the man of sin to be revealed. For if the church is here during the trib Jesus’ words to Peter would be a lie. Rev.13:7 says that the AC makes war with the saints (in your view the church) and overcomes them. This can not be referring to the church age believers of which we are a part, based upon what Jesus said to Peter.

          There are many other reasons to believe that the pre trib position is the correct one. But, it is not necassary for us to agree in order to have fellowship. You can be wrong about it and still be a true brother in Christ. Praise God!

          I would still like to hear your explanation of the question I asked about the marriage at Cana. What was it about Jesus’ miracle there that “manifested forth His glory”?

          Blessings:-} and MARANATHA!! 🙂

          • Edwitness

            Paul B,
            There are other events that had to take place also, such as the return of the Jews to their land, in order for the rapture to be imminent as well. No nation of Israel, no “time of Jacob’s trouble”.
            Thanks:-)
            Blessings:-}

          • Edwitness;
            Nice to see a show of humility there brother, Good fruit we should all strive to exhibit. (I personally find it much easier to recognize pride in others than in myself, but God is always faithful to put the spotlight on it for me!)
            The reasoning that ‘the tribulation saints cannot be the Body of Christ because they are overcome’ is but another support for the rapture myth that falls like a house of cards when put up against the full counsel of the Word. Instead of a lengthy reply I will direct you to my treatment of that notion here:

            https://pbenson.me/2016/05/03/does-antichrist-defeat-the-tribulation-saints/

            I hope this will clear up this misconception you are promoting.
            In Jesus Christ;
            Paul

          • edwitness;
            I am glad you can see there were events that had to take place first in order for the resurrection /catching away to BECOME imminent. My purpose in using the one example of Peter’s death as an old man was to show this event was not possible in the lifetime and ministry of Paul. It would have been error for him to teach as imminent something that was not possible to be imminent.

            You have admitted the nation of Israel had to be reborn for this event to become imminent. The Holy Spirit would not have told Paul to believe and teach (and write in his letters) as ‘imminent’ something which not possible to be imminent. I know I am being terrible redundant, but upon this point hangs the very issue of whether or not the doctrine of the ‘imminent return’ is correct or not. And the right answer is NOT!

            I think if you prayerfully follow through the improved line of reasoning you are on you will come to the same conclusions I have.

            Blessings upon the Body of Jesus Christ;
            Paul

        • Edwitness

          Paul B,
          Thanks, but I said I misspoke, not misunderstood. The conclusions I have that I related to you do stand after following the line of the whole counsel of the scripture. There is no way the pre trib rapture is not now imminent. Since the issues that were to preceed it have since (Israel) and are now (apostasy) happening.

          Blessings:-}

          • Edwitness:
            What about the prophetic words of Job?

            Job 14:10-12 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

            He prophesied the Resurrection wouldn’t happen until the heavens vanish, an event that will not occur until the Second Coming. That is when the Church is gathered unto Jesus, at his return to earth. The Bible does not teach a prior event.

            This prophesy of Job (and other ones)must be fulfilled before the catching away becomes imminent.

            Blessings upon all who love the truth;
            Paul

          • Edwitness

            Paul B,
            That should come as no surprise since the way Israel viewed the end times caused them to believe that there would be no first coming. But that Messiah would come and set His kingdom up when He came. Period. No second coming. God hid these events from them as it says in Daniel. Sealed until the time of the end.
            And was it even a prophecy? Or simply a speculation on Job’s part? There are things in Ecclesiastes that the JW’s and others like to attribute as being prophetic that are most certainly not as well. Anihilation? Not.

            Blessings:-}

          • EdW;
            What did you think about the article on the victory of the trib saints? Do you agree it dispels the notion they are not the Body of Christ because they are defeated? Do you still feel that ‘proof’ proves anything? Still going to use it to promote rapture theory? Just wondering if you can be convinced of truth by sound arguments or not.
            Grace and blessings to you;
            Paul

    • Pete

      Ed, you wrote “That is why he wrote to the Thes to relieve their fears that it was upon them or imminent, until the event he describes for them happens.”

      WHAT did Paul say was imminent?

      • Edwitness

        Pete,
        Paul said “that day would not come until…” The rapture (that day) would only be imminent when Israel was back in their land and the apostasy happened. Both have and are occurring. This makes the rapture imminent.

        • Pete

          Ed, so you think “the day of Christ” is the rapture. Why do you think that? What Biblical evidence do you have that the day of Christ is the rapture? Why would the Thessalonians be worried that the rapture was imminent?

          • Edwitness

            Pete,
            I didn’t say the day of Christ was the rapture. I said that they were worried they had missed the rapture because they had been led to believe that the day of Christ was “at hand”.

        • Pete

          Ed you wrote //The rapture (that day) would only be imminent when Israel was back in their land//

          So what did you mean by this? “That day” in the context of 2 Thess 2 is “the day of Christ”:

          2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
          2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

          I am just lost. “At hand” doesn’t mean you missed it. It means it’s coming soon, very soon.

          • Emery

            Peter;
            I REALLY wish you guys would stop this rediculous bantering about pretrib posttrib rapture, WHEN NO RAPTURE WILL EVER HAPPEN. It’s MADE UP by religions and those who don’t understand the scriptures. There IS NO RAPTURE AND NO CHURCH mentioned ANYWHERE in the scriptures, only in falsely translated Bibles. You’ve been deceived for a LONG time. And Ed is clueless and very unChristian.

  • CHAR

    Edwitness, thank you so much for your CORRECT teaching of the rapture. We all know (except for Pete) that Paul and the apostles had no idea that He was not returning for 2,000 years, just like other prophets like Daniel and Isaiah didn’t understand their prophecies either because they weren’t going to be fulfilled for many years to come. God can and does keep secrets from us and He chose not to reveal to them that it would be after their deaths that Jesus would return to take us up.

    Pete doesn’t realize that “this generation” means the generation that is living when Israel became a nation in 1948. A generation being 70 years, so we are in the 68th year now, so PTL, it won’t be long.

    God Bless your efforts to “convince” Pete, but I think it’s another one of those pearls before swine things.

    • Pete

      Char //A generation being 70 years, so we are in the 68th year now, so PTL, it won’t be long.//

      I expect you will be ready to listen to some alternative views on eschatology in 2-3 years WHEN the generation passes away and we are still here. Right?

    • Edwitness

      Char,
      Thank you for the kind words. It never ceases to amaze when they can not see the clear reading of the scripture. The Thes were so obviously concerned that they had missed the pre trib rapture. Otherwise they would have seen Jesus come if it was the second coming they were concerned about. Because in that case “every eye shall see Him”.
      Blessings sis to you and yours:-}
      And MARANATHA!!! 🙂

      • Pete

        Ed, the Thessalonians were neither concerned about missing the rapture, nor were they concerned about missing the second coming. The text says they were concerned that “the day of Christ was at hand.” AT HAND means “coming soon”. Not “you missed it.”

        2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
        2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come…

        Nothing in here about any rapture, nor any second coming. ????????

        • Edwitness

          Pete,
          Did you understand my reply? Maybe you should go back and read it again.

          • Pete

            Ed I think you are deliberately changing the meaning of “at hand” to “you missed it.” Not the same thing at all.

        • Emery

          Peter;
          Thanks for the FTR post. I aqree mostly with all of it. But I think the second resurrection, yet to occur, post final battle, will be quite a feat on his part. I look forward to speaking to Biblical characters of old and learning how it went with them. I look forward to seeing dead relatives as well. yes, the taking away into heaven misunderstanding by false religion is perplexing. How can they misunderstand so much for so long?

    • jim black

      Hello Char,

      What did you think of the verses Paul shared showing that resurrection won’t happen until the heavens are no more? (Rev. 6:14, 2 Pet. 3:10-12)

      Lord bless

  • marlen r

    you can tell exactly when someone is SDA ..you talk about catholics and Christians but your Pope is Helen white so you don’t read the bible on your own with direction of the Holy Spirit ,..they hate the rapture so much and don’t believe in hell…its biblical and about faith like with enoch ,,,something they do not have ,,yes the majority of the Christians will not be raptured because they are not ready ,some gotta go through purification by being martyrs but many are ready now also ,those are his saints full of faith ,love and the Holy Spirit ,,I sure hope im ready but if I were to stay behind I know what to do ,,,pray for faith and courage …to some the devil tell there is no God ,others there is no Devil ,others there is no heaven ,others there is no hell ,,,but the worst and most are the ones that believe they still have time and they think they can get right with God when tribulation starts ,,,,I wonder how we can even know when tribulation begins ,is a worldwide event like the rapture does not happen ….

    • Emery

      Marlen;
      Even though all I know who are SDA are total hypocrites, as are Catholics, it’s not fair what you say. First off, the SDA whom I used to work for turned out to be a liar, thief, and one who hires male and female black prostitutes almost daily, and is married, supposedly, happily. He is an adulterer, fornicator, liar, thief, and one who performs homosexual acts. He thinks he hides it well, but he does not. Glad I don’t work for him any more. He stole almost $1500 in equipment from me when I left. no, there is no rapture, or hellfire, and Helen White is a false prophet and liar. However, your religion is not a true religion either. There is only ONE true religion, and Jesus taught it in the first century. There are almost NO accurate translations of God’s word either, with the KJV being about the most misleading translation available today. It only compares about 55% accurate as compared to over 12000 existent ancient texts from which God’s inspired word is translated from. God’s word also states that ALL religions are “false religion” and “works of the flesh” and “Babylon the Great”, so you saying this or that about SDA’s and Catholics is like a murder saying a hit man isn’t a true murderer, or a true criminal. It is God’s word ALONE to which we must adhere, NOT religions or men and their teachings and traditions. But it must not be a falsely transalted Bible we use to adhere to God’s word. The rapture is a product ONLY OF RELIGIONS, and the belief in hellfire came from PAGAN BABYLON RELIGIONS. Hell, in God’s word, is the “common grave of mankind” and nothing more. God’s word CLEARLY STATES that the punishment for sin is DEATH. It does NOT say death AND THEN torture forever. For THAT to be true, God and Satan would need to cooperate. God would need to allow Satan to tempt people to sin, and then God would need to allow Satan to take that person and torture them forever. God and Satan do NOT cooperate with eachother. God’s word CLEARLY teaches that we don’t have an immortal soul. That pagan belief was ADDED to Christendom LONG after the first century, when the scriptures were actually written down at God’s inspiration. Hellfire was also from pagandom, and was added also, LONG after the first century. The rapture THOERY was added long after the trinity doctrine, hellfire doctrine, and immortal soul doctrine were ADDED to Christendom, LONG, LONG after the first century. How can you actually believe, that MAN can change God’s word, many centuries AFTER it’s writing, and have God approve of it? It’s simply NOT possible. Any changes to His word, as His word CLEARLY TEACHES, makes the one changing it, God’s ENEMY.

  • The only thing that I question is that you seem to be saying that the church is the bride of Christ, but Rev 21:9-10 clearly says that New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. If this is not what you are saying, please explain.

    • Emery

      Laurel;
      If you want to know what the ancient texts from which the scriptures were translated, then there IS NO CHURCH, they have falsely translated the word for “congregation” as church. So Jesus began a CONGREGATION and not a church. But New Israel, the Israel of God, Spiritual Israel, and the little flock are all names for the same small group of people, the 144,000 who are the ONLY ONES who are “born again” or “born of the spirit” (of God), and are the ONLY ONES to ever go to heaven, besides Jesus, the Christ. This group IS the “bride of the Christ”. They are to co-rule, in heaven, with Jesus, the Kingdom, ruling over Earth FROM heaven. This is what the scriptures ACTUALLY say, not what someone “translated” or “interpreted” them to say. God DID say that we are to NEVER interpret ANY word of scripture, for any reason, and that interpretation belongs ONLY to God the Almighty, Jesus’ father. Religions do not teach these things, nor do falsely translated Bibles say it, but the ancient texts from which those Bibles were TRANSLATED, DO say these things. If you are actually honestly interested in accuracy, then this is it. If you’re not, and are only interested in religions and false translations, then disregard this. Most people do.

    • New Jerusalem is where the Bride lives. That is our John 14 mansions.

      • Emery

        New Jerusalem IS the Bride.

  • Dianne

    JESUS CHRIST IS GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH. John 1:1-14

    Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my LORD, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    Mark 16:19 So then after the LORD had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

    Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true and EVERY MAN a LIAR;

    The HOLY SPIRIT IS ALSO GOD: Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Colossians 1:16-20 For by HIM were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED by HIM, and FOR HIM. And He is before ALL THINGS, and by Him ALL THINGS consist.
    And He is the HEAD OF THE BODY, the church: who is the beginning, the first born from the dead; that in ALL THINGS HE might have the PREEMINENCE.

    For it PLEASED the Father that in Him should ALL the FULLNESS dwell;
    And, having made peace through the blood of HIS cross, by HIM to reconcile ALL THINGS unto HIMSELF; by HIM, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    As we said before, so say I now AGAIN, if ANY MAN preach ANY OTHER gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be ACCURSED.

    • Emery

      That’s what you get for using a falsely translated copy of supposedly God’s word. Destruction. God’s INSPIRED word says that anyone propagating lies like that is antichrist, and is destined to destruction.

      • Leonard

        Emorrhoid! That you? Well, if what you just posted is true, I hope you’re wearing your asbestos panties,as the time for said destruction appears to be drawing near. Where’s the proof that the King James Bible is corrupted that you lied (again) about having? I want to see that proof–unless of course,it’s just another figment of the imagination from another lying Jehovah’s False Witness…

  • The idea that the righteous will all be raptured out of the world just before the time of trouble and that only the wicked will be left behind to endure seven years of tribulation can be very appealing. Perhaps that is why this doctrine has gained such widespread acceptance. But the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.
    The phrase “seven years of tribulation” does not appear anywhere in Scripture. However, Jesus did say that a terrible time of trouble would come upon the world just before His return and that it would be more intense than any other in the history of this world. In His great prophetic discourse on the Mount of Olives, Jesus made the following statement: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened” (Matthew 24:21, 22).
    If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened!
    All throughout Scripture we see examples of the Lord saving His people through tribulation, not from it.
    Noah was not saved from the Flood, but through it.
    Daniel was not saved from the lions’ den, but through it.
    Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not were not saved from the fiery furnace, but through it. In fact, Jesus went through it with them, and He will go through the great tribulation with us, as well!
    The children of Israel were not saved from Egypt before the plagues fell, but afterward. God demonstrated His love and power by preserving them in Egypt through the 10 plagues. In the same way, the righteous will be in the world when the seven last plagues fall (Revelation 16), but God will preserve them.
    Psalm 91 contains special promises for those living during the last great tribulation. It says, “You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day, Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday. A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, And see the reward of the wicked” (Psalm 91:5-8, NKJV). The Psalmist makes it clear we will be in the midst of the world during the plagues, yet remain untouched, if God is our refuge. “No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling” (Psalm 91:10, NKJV).

  • Karl

    This is true, but God is not concerned with the whole world. Bible prophecy and it’s fulfillment centers around His Holy land of Israel, and it’s capital city of Jerusalem in particular.

    What about John 3 verse 16? Bible prophecy is about and centered in Jesus. That is what the book of Revelation is about the unveiling of the Son Of God? Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy Rev 19 Verse 10. I like your website however I do believe you miss the point sometimes.

  • Karl;
    God is NOT partial. He IS concerned with ALL of mankind, not just the holy land of Israel and Jerusalem. The “spirit of prophecy” you refer to was an angel imparting the visions (symbolic visions) to John, being sent by Jesus to do that. Yes, this web site gets a LOT wrong all the time.

    James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, IMPARTIAL, not hypocritical.

  • Leonard

    Karl, you have apparently chosen to engage Emery, aka Emery Richards, aka Emorrhoid. Emorrhoid continually lies about the King James Bible,claiming that he has “proof” that it’s corrupted, yet will not show that proof. You can read more of the wit and charm of Emorrhoid at https://disqus.com/by/emeryrichards/

  • Karl;
    I noticed that a fellow named Leonard has indicated lies regarding me. I assure you that Leonard is a fruitcake and behaves as childishly as an adult can behave, and still be somewhat functional.

    As regards the KJV, yes, it’s very falsely translated, as it’s MISSING over 7,000 occurrences of the name Jehovah that exist in the ancient texts, and it has changed hades, sheol, and Gehenna to hell, which is totally incorrect, and in Mark chapter 16, ALL the ancient texts END after verse 8, but the KJV continues that chapter with 12 more verses that do NOT appear in any of the ancient texts. Those added verses are fictitious, and were not inspired by God. They are quite spurious. There are thousands more examples of the false translation methods used in creating the KJV. It contains all the apocrypha, other non inspired texts. But the 12 revisions to it subsequent to it’s creation have removed them, thankfully.

    Jehovah COMMANDES us to take in “accurate information” daily from His INSPIRED WORD, and using a KJV prevents that possibility, since it’s so inaccurate. This nutcase Leonard REFUSES to even acknowledge this information, with an almost pathological manner. Beware of him.

  • Karl

    “This is true, but God is not concerned with the whole world. Bible prophecy and it’s fulfillment centers around His Holy land of Israel, and it’s capital city of Jerusalem in particular.” From Geoff’s Post. I should have put in quotes before.

    I was trying to correct a view where Bible Prophecy becomes detached from the the person it is centered around, Jesus Christ. As important as Israel and Jerusalem are, in this dispensation God is dealing with the unsaved and the Church. Using the Song of Solomon to indicate the season of the Rapture is what I believe is taking scripture out of context. As wonderful as this is the Rapture will take place at a time when we are unaware of, that is why we have to be ready at any time, not just in Springtime in Israel. (BTW thanks Geoff for allowing me to post on your excellent website)

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