Why Do Both Popes And Nazi Soldiers Make The Two Finger Salute?

This was the exact oath, with the two finger salute, required of not only the Nazi military and associated groups like the Hitler youth, it was required of all citizens as well

Adolf Hitler’s control over the German people was more religious and spiritual than it was political, just like every Pope that has ever held the office.

“And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.” Revelation 13:15 (KJV)

Berlin, Germany 1934: Shortly after Adolf Hitler consolidated his control over Germany, he then stepped in to exert his control over the hearts and the minds of the German people. Like all evil dictators, allegiance was given to Hitler first and foremost, with loyalty to the German nation a distant second place. This was the exact oath, with the two finger salute, required of not only the Nazi military and associated groups like the Hitler youth, but it was required of all German citizens as well:

“I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath.” – The Fuehrer Oath. August 2nd, 1934

We are told that it is a sign that means “peace”, or it is a “V for Victory”, but nothing could be further from the truth. The two finger salute, used by both Nazi soldiers in allegiance to Hitler and by Popes on their followers, is an occult symbol of war and conquest.

According to Codex Magic, the sign can be a sign of Satan, of malediction or the horned pagan god, Pan. It can also represent Vulcan, the ancient god of fire and destruction. The sign can also be taken to represent a chevron, the symbol of “Wrath and Destruction”. American hippies adapted the V for victory in war sign to mean peace. The hand gesture quickly became the hand sign for peace. It is anything else but that.


Paintings like these do indeed show a Christ, but it’s not the Lord’s Christ. It is Antichrist.

All through the history of Catholic art over the past 1,500 years, countless paintings of Christ have been made with the Christ represented making the two finger salute. This gesture, in which his first two fingers and his thumb are extended and his third and fourth finger are closed, is among the most frequently occurring of Christ’s hand gestures in Catholic art. It emerged as a sign of benediction (or blessing) in early Catholic and Byzantine art, and its use continued through the Medieval period, and into the Renaissance. But as the Catholic persecutions of Christians increased, during times like the Spanish Inquisition, this symbol was proven to be a sign of conquest, dominance and eventually the death of all those who would oppose Roman spiritual rule. When you see a Pope, Cardinal or priest using this sign today, it is a sign that the Vatican and the Catholic system will not rest until you are under it’s control. For this same reason, all popes kiss the ground whenever they land in a foreign country, they are claiming it for Rome.

The two finger salute is a sign that is satanic in origin, and wherever and whenever it is used it is always a “bad sign”. The connection between both the Nazis and the Vatican using this sign gets especially more evil when you consider how the Vatican not only signed a pact with Hitler, they also helped thousands of Nazis to escape through Switzerland after WWII.

Adolf Hitler was not a Christian, he was not even a Catholic though that was his upbringing. Hitler, in his sick mind, was a god and demanded worship as a god, and the German people took an oath and gave him worship. All popes claim to sit in the seat of Jesus Christ, and to be infallible when speaking on spiritual matters from their “throne”. Not only that, they are called “Holy Father”, a title in the Bible given to God alone.(John 17:11 KJV). The two finger salute both groups make is an outward symbol of the spiritual rule they exercise upon their followers.

It is the sign of a curse. And for those of you left behind to face the time of Jacob’s trouble, you will see the Antichrist using this sign as well.

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.

  • marlene

    The next time you see another picture of obama with his 2 fingers held us against his cheek, know that both obama and the symbol is a CURSE.

  • marlene

    SO, the next time you see another picture of obama with his 2 fingers held us against his cheek, know that both obama and the symbol is a curse.

  • Todd

    Great article my brother

    • Thank you 🙂 It aggravated a lot of people, but it’s truth!

      • The truth aggravates all the ungodly Geoffrey, just look at the Jew haters, they came out
        of the woodwork like cockroaches ! Excellent articals, let the truth be known, Amen !

  • Todd

    I also believe it’ll be the sign of the Antichrist and I like how those who refuse to believe in the pre-trib rapture never explain how Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. A picture of the born-again believer being took before Jacob’s trouble. Not trying to sound sarcastic or anything like that. Just saying

  • Iwonder

    If you want to check something interesting google “baphomet”, which happens to be an occult symbolic image of the devil, you might find interesting similarities.

    • Corey

      Baphomet is exactly what came to my mind. Very interesting article! Thanks for it.

  • because they are evil…

    More End Time News At:

  • Mike in LA

    Why then did many of the Renaissance paintings of Jesus show the two finger gesture? Because different societies and cultures have different hand gestures. I hardly think the Hippies of the 60’s were supporting satan when they were showed two fingers to protest the war. And from that the two finger salute came to mean ‘Peace’ and non-violence… Just as Jesus intended.

  • clive Storey

    This sign is satanic to the core. The two fingers that are pointing upwards represent the horns of Satan. The three fingers that are pointing downwards represent the the trinity. Therefore this sign places Satan above God.

    • In the pictures shown of the Pope and the Nazis, the thumb is pointing up, hence three fingers up and two down. Also the upward fingers are held together, not apart like horns. As a kid, I was taught that the Pope’s two fingers symbolized the divinity and humanity of Christ, and that the other two fingers and thumb represented the Trinity. I am now Protestant, and believe that much in the Catholic church is sinister, especially its positions on the Cross and the Bible. However, from a reasoning standpoint, the presence of two things does not necessarily mean that they are connected, as a good attorney will point out, and the evidence given in the article for a connection between the hand gesture and evil is not well substantiated. The Catholic Church’s militant conquests do not make the hand sign one of conquest any more than a bishop’s wearing a belt makes it a symbol of its wanting to round up dissidents (which of course it did on a large scale however.) Another example: the Boy Scout symbol is the middle three fingers held together upward, but in recent decades this has taken on the vulgar sentiment to “read between the lines”. I do not fault the Boy Scouts for their initial use of that hand gesture. In conclusion, I lean toward believing that many of the Catholic church’s maneuvers are nefarious, and the papal hand gesture probably is also, especially since Baphomet (the goat / satan image) and the Nazis do the same. Certainly, the commandment against making images (in Exodus 20:4) has been trodden underfoot by making paintings of Jesus.

  • Sola scriptura

    It is also the “V” sign as in Roman numeral 5 for the coming 5th age, aka the age of Aquarius. It symbolizes peace that comes from the anti Christ during the 5th age. That peace will be false and very short lived….
    The elite love to communicate to each other through secret signs and symbols done openly, right in the faces of the ignorant masses. There was even an ancient pagan Wiccan symbol in the New King James Bible for years(the triquetra with a hidden 666). It was taken off after enough people figured out what it meant. It was intentional by the editors and publishers – which says a great deal about the intentions of that apostate bible version. Below is a brief history of the bible version issue:


    And a little taste of the problems with Catholicism from a biblical and historical perspective:

  • JIm

    why don’t you righteous people start a war in the name of a symbol. Idiots.

    • skywatcher

      Jim, thank you, SO VERY MUCH for correctly recognizing us as “righteous people”! We don’t get that very often! May I graciously encourage you to not be quite so hasty to label people when standing in front of a mirror?!

      Take some time and research the various symbols you see being used around you each and every day! As a former Freemason, I see them everywhere IN PLAIN SIGHT! The advantage I have is that I understand what they mean, whereas people who were never in that cult or did any research have no inkling…just like you! Ignorance really is bliss until it comes back to smack you in the head! Knowledge really is power! Knowing the Almighty God, who is omniscient is a wonderful asset to the “righteous”!

  • Skywatcher

    Again, another excellent article, Bro. Geoffrey! Thank you, for bringing this to light! Amazing to see how the various signs and symbols of the occult are so easily adapted and used by those who do NOT really know the truth or significance of them! I have a whole book of signs and symbols that started out with meanings that we don’t know about today, and it’s shocking! Many of the NWO companies use them as subliminal messaging to those who recognize them! Pepsi and the “Oil of Olay” companies are just two that come to mind at present.

    Funny how signs can mean different things to different people as they move away from the true original intent! I don’t mean to be crude or rude, but in Great Britain, the two finger salute today and in many years gone by, means “up yours!” An excellent and enlightening article! Thanks!

    • quash

      Most symbols have had their meaning changed, and the longer a symbol persists the higher the odds of change. Absolutist thinking that says something is always evil is just intellectual laziness.

  • skywatcher

    Right away, I recognized something that is not acceptable for a man/woman of God on any level to be doing, much LESS His earthly “representative”:

    “I swear by God this sacred oath…” God’s Word dictates, “But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black, but let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.” Mt. 5: 34-37.

    A real genuine man of God would know better than to do that! Jesus says it’s not good to swear by the things listed above; imagine how much worse it is for the one who swears by God’s name!

    Furthermore, that oath is anything but “sacred”! It’s raising Hitler above God, and pledging one’s allegiance to a minion of Satan!

  • MRH

    Folks: The occult uses signs and symbols to communicate and to conceal knowledge. As for the significance of the signs and symbols, they are all satanic, and have associated dark powers. The pyramid/eye combo represents Satan and his ominous all seeing eye. This eerie image is found on the US $1 ‘back’ (1st circle), along with the Eagle (2nd circle).. emblems. But there’s much much more to the bizarre story, as declared in below link (my new page). Research holds the key unto both biblical and conspiracy stuff.


    P.S. Satan owns and rules this wicked world unto the uttermost! We Christians need to stop worrying about things. We can’t change prophetic matters, nor is God going to honor our salvation fears (by eminent rapture). Christians are only excluded from Wrath NOT Tribulation, and there is a BIG difference between controversial elements, of which I’m not going to debate on at this particular time (too aggravating a game).

    • MRH

      Christians need NOT fear the Beast NOR his ‘mark’, as we will be ‘changed’ beforehand. But we are presently still subject unto varied tribulation effect, which could impact our earthly lives in many varied ways including injury or death. Amen?

    • Corey

      Can you provide Biblical evidence that the great tribulation period is not God’s Holy Wrath?

      • MRH

        @Corey: Yes, but only pieces of the biblical puzzle to ponder. For one thing, the Tribulation doesn’t begin until the ‘abomination’ prevails. And the latter can’t occur until after Temple operation in progress. And such can’t happen without peace treaty declaration. So until the Temple rises on the holy mount, we are still in limbo in such matters.

        P.S. The ‘abomination’ is both spiritual and material in form. Likewise the ‘temple’ factor. Both elements of each are present today, but of hidden fashion. Spiritually: The church represents the temple (holy), and the occult the abomination (unholy). Anyway, it’s late and so I must depart debate for now. Plus complex topic requiring research.


        • Martin_ZA

          The pre-trib rapture of the bride of Christ is the sign the Jews are waiting for to rebuild the temple… The rebuilding of the temple will take 3 and half years. This is the first 3 and half years of the 7. After the temple is finished, the antichrist who will be revealed immediately after the rapture, will sit in the temple and declare himself God. This is when the last 3 and half years start. This is when everything breaks loose and is all out apocalyptic. Mind you, the whole of the 7years are going to be hell on earth because the Holy Spirit will also be taken back to heaven WITH the bride. Its impossible for Gods Wrath to be poured out on earth while Hos Holy Spirit is present on earth…. Think about that

          • Skywatcher

            Martin_ZA, that was well put! Brief, concise, ACCURATE, and to the point! I don’t just say that because it lines up with what I believe; it lines up perfectly with Scriptures when they are “rightly divided” as you HAVE done!

            I also choose to believe the Bible when God tells us He’s coming back for a Bride “without spot or wrinkle”. She certainly would NOT be that if she had to go through the G.T.! She’d be badly bloodied and bruised, and furthermore, I don’t believe God is a wife-beater! So many readers who do not believe in the Pre-Trib. rapture obviously believe He is a wife-beater. Very sad indeed!

            Thank you, Martin!

          • MRH

            @ Martin_ZA: Scripture declares that the resurrection (changing) occurs at Christs return, followed by the end of the world (wrath, harvest, day of the Lord), and deliverance of kingdom unto God (rapture). Read 1 Cor 15 😉

          • Iwonder

            Where in the bible does it say that?
            I mean that the church will be raptured before they rebuild the temple.

      • MRH

        Mat 24:15, 21 KJV – When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) … For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (TRIBULATION)

        Mat 24:29 KJV – Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (WRATH)

        P.S. Technically the Wrath is the latter half of the GT. It is also called; day of the Lord, harvest, end of the world. But the way scripture details things makes it difficult to understand. At present we are still in ‘sorrows’, as evident through MSM. Anyway, I hope the above biblical offering is sufficient?

        • Skywatcher

          Mark, the “sorrows” haven’t even begun yet! We’re in that time period when the birth pains that Paul speaks of begin to get sharper or more intense, “For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” Rom. 8: 22, 23

          By the way, the world never ends. It is renovated by fire, but it is NOT annihilated! There is a huge difference.

          • MRH

            @ Skywatcher: The birth pangs are sorrows, and we certainly are experiencing such all the time these latter days. Just tune into MSM 😉

            P.S. The world is melted in the end 😉

      • Claire


        (Matthew 24:29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

        (Matthew 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man [The “Son of Man” is something that Jesus called himself while he was on this earth] coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

        (Matthew 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

        Notice Matthew 24:29? What part of “AFTER THE TRIBULATION” do you not understand?

        • MRH

          @ Claire: After tribulation is the wrath period 😉 Matthew doesn’t detail much but Luke does 🙂

          Luk 21:25-27 KJV – And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

          Also note the words ‘tribulation of those days’ (Matthew 24:29). And also the prior passage (27-28) which concerns the holy return.. like a lightening flash. Or rather blink of an eye. In other words ‘instant’. That’s how fast Christ will appear, and the world will not notice, only the after effects. Dead bodies of the saints and global chaos caused by their sudden absence. For the world will not see us as we will be invisible unto them being spirit beings.. like the angels 😉

          P.S. The four Gospels differ in detail aspects, and so must be combined to see the full picture 😉

          • Claire

            After the tribulation is when Jesus comes again, in a cloud with all of the saved that have already passed on (even our loved ones who have died that were saved), and EVERYONE will see Jesus return, it will not be secret.

            THEN we will be caught UP to meet Him in the air and we will be changed, and as soon as we are raptured, that same day will He pour out His Wrath on the world.

            The rapture is POST-trib, PRE-Wrath.

          • Claire

            26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
            27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

            Also, MRH…the passage above does NOT say Jesus returns so quickly like lightning…it’s the opposite!

            What that passage is saying is do not be deceived by those that say Christ has come into the desert or secret chambers….do NOT believe them, because when Christ returns, it will be visible to every eye, like lightning in the east can be seen even in the west….it will not be something you will miss it will be so big.

        • Skywatcher

          Claire, if you can get your hands on the following inexpensive book, it is worth it’s weight in gold!

          “Things to Come”, by J. Dwight Pentecost

          I have a few really good notes on this topic that give arguments for and against the various rapture theories. Feel free to email me if you would like a FREE copy of this info. It ends all arguments, based upon Scriptures “rightly divided”. scotianprince@eastlink.ca

          • Claire

            Skywatcher…while I certainly appreciate the kind gesture, I do not believe any other book Can explain Scripture better than God’s own Word.

            I use the King James Holy Bible (NOT the Scofield Reference or one with interpretations nor footnotes).

            I have the Holy Spirit to guide me and I am not unclear or confounded on my stance regarding the end times. It makes perfect sense to me.

            The Bible is my final authority.

        • MRH

          @ Claire: You forgot below scripture. The resurrection precedes the wrath 😉

          1Co 15:23-24 KJV – But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

          Regarding ‘lightening’ flash it does not linger. Matthew 24:27 is NOT Matthew 24:30! The latter occurs after the wrath NOT after tribulation. But technically the wrath is part of the GT, just the worst part 😉

          P.S. THE END = Wrath = Harvest = day of the Lord 😉

          • Claire

            I agree that the first ressurrection occurs before the rapture.

            But the Great Tribulation is NOT the same or latter half of God’s Wrath.

            The GT is more accurately satans wrath, because it is when the Antichrist(Satan embodied) engages worldwide persecution of Christians as he brings the world into one religious/political order. Many of us will be beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast and for the witness of Jesus Christ.

            God’s cup of Wrath is poured out on the remainder of the world immediately after we are raptured. Post trib, pre-wrath.

          • MRH

            @ Claire: The full GT begins after the abomination and ends at the glorious appearance. But there is one element always overlooked, and that element is physical death. None of us can be assured that we will even be in the tribulation, as we could all die prior. Therefore only a handful will suffer the tribulation. Which will be those few humans alive during that time. And of course many will become martyrs in the end as they will then awaken 😉

            Being thus stated, why do we worry about tribulation? There are many paths to the grave, and most folk will go there. But how many are saints or sinners is not known to us, only to God. Also a true Christian has the Spirit dwelling within, and as such is safe from the second death. So whether we die before or during tribulation matters not. Also the second beast and mark occurs after the first resurrection begins. We are spared the wrath 😀

            P.S. I wonder if God and his angels find us amusing in our relentless battles over who is right or wrong in this crazy game of biblical mysteries? 😆

        • Skywatcher

          Claire, it really surprises me to see how few people there are on this forum and just how many of them are so headstrong and arrogant, as to believe that Doctors of theology cannot come to your side to help you see the pattern of end times events in chronological order or anything else for that matter. Unfortunately, they are NOT laid out that way in the Holy Bible (KJV or any other), and therefore, not always easy to connect all the dots. What I struggled with for years, they were able to condense for me in clear, intelligent and understandable ways in only a few minutes of reading and following the “arrows”.

          No need to be offended because I suggested one of my Bible College textbooks that not only explains that topic, but a host of many other topics that pastors and lay preachers need to know about, prior to going into ministry. God didn’t just “reveal these things to them” on a casual Saturday afternoon, and then they ran with it on Sunday. It takes hours upon hours and sometimes years of study and research, as to what the early Church Fathers and our modern Spirit-filled pastors and doctors of theology have learned throughout a lifetime.

          Have at it, Kiddo! I’m glad I could be of some help to you.

      • Skywatcher

        Hey there, Corey! Please allow me to help you a little in this regard. I’ve taken a quote from J. D. Pentecost’s book, “Things To Come, A Study in Biblical Eschatology”. This is only a small sampling of much more pertaining to the topic at hand. I trust it will shed some more light for you and others who read it!


        A number of arguments may be presented in support of the pretribulation rapture position. While not all of them are of equal weight, the cumulative evidence is strong.

        A. The literal method of interpretation. It is frankly and freely admitted by amillennialists that the basic issue in the controversy between premillennialists and themselves is the issue of the method of interpretation to be employed in the interpretation of prophecy. Allis says, “The question of literal versus figurative interpretation is, therefore, one which has to be faced at the very outset.” He admits that if the literal method of interpretation of the Scriptures be the right method premillennialism is the correct interpretation. Thus we can see that our doctrine of the premillennial return of Christ to institute a literal kingdom is the outcome of the literal method of interpretation of the Old Testament promises and prophecies. It is only natural, therefore, that the same basic method of interpretation must be employed in our interpretation of the rapture question. It would be most illogical to build a premillennial system on a literal method and then depart from that method in consideration of the related questions. It can easily be seen that the literal method of interpretation demands a pretribulation rapture of the Church. The posttribulationist must either interpret the book of Revelation historically, which is basically a spiritualizing method, or else treat it as yet future, but spiritualize away the literalness of the events in an attempt to harmonize these events with other Scriptures in the light of his interpretation. Either explanation violates the principle of literal interpretation. The midtribulation rapturists will apply the literal method of interpretation to the last half of the seventieth week, but spiritualize the events of the first half of the week to permit the Church to encounter those. This, again, is a basic inconsistency. There can not be one method employed to establish premillennialism and another method employed in the interpretation of the rapture promises. The literal method of interpretation, consistently employed, can lead to no other conclusion that that the Church will be raptured before the seventieth week.

        It should be noted in passing that this method does not lead one on into ultradispensationalism, for that system is not the outgrowth of the use of greater literalness, but rather is based on exegetical considerations.

        B. The nature of the seventieth week. There are a number of words used in both the Old and New Testaments to describe the seventieth week period, which, when considered together, give us the essential nature or character of this period: (1) wrath (Rev. 6: 16-17; 11: 18; 14: 19; 15: 1, 7; 16: 1, 19; I Thess. 1: 9-10; 5: 9; Zeph. 1: 15: 18); (2) judgment (Rev. 14: 7; 15: 4; 16: 5-7; 19: 2); (3) indignation (Isa. 26: 20-21; 34: 1-3); (4) punishment (Isa. 24: 20-21); (5) hour of trial (Rev. 3: 10); (6) hour of trouble (Jer. 30: 7); (7) destruction (Joel 1: 15); (8) darkness (Joel 2: 2; Zeph. 1: 14-18; Amos 5: 18). It must be noted that these references describe the period in its entirety, not just a portion of it, so that the whole period bears this characterization. As to the nature of the tribulation (although limiting it to the last half of the week) Harrison says:

        Let us get clearly in mind the nature of the Tribulation, that it is divine “wrath” (11: 18; 14: 8, 10, 19; 15: 1, 7; 16: 1, 19 [observe he omits 6: 16, 17] and divine “judgment” (14: 7; 15: 4; 16: 7; 17: 1; 18: 10; 19: 2). We know that our blessed Lord bore for us the wrath of God and His judgment; therefore we who are in Him “shall not come into judgment.” The antithesis of I Thess. 5: 9 is conclusive evidence: “For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Wrath for others, but salvation for us at the Rapture, “whether we wake or sleep: (vs. 10).

        More to follow in next post to you.

      • Skywatcher

        This is post #2, Corey! I hope this also helps you and others to get a better overview!

        C. The scope of the seventieth week. There can be no question that this period will see the wrath of God poured out upon the whole earth. Revelation 3: 10; Isaiah 34: 2; 24: 1, 4-5, 16-17, 18-21, and many other passages make this very clear. And yet, while the whole earth is in view, this period is particularly in relation to Israel. Jeremiah 30: 7, which calls this period “the time of Jacob’s trouble,” makes this certain. The events of the seventieth week are events of the “Day of the Lord” or “day of Jehovah.” This use of the name of deity emphasizes God’s peculiar relationship to that nation. When this period is being anticipated in Daniel 9, God says to the prophet, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city” (v. 24). This whole period then has special reference to Daniel’s people, Israel, and Daniel’s holy city, Jerusalem.

        Inasmuch as many passages in the New Testament such as Ephesians 3: 1-6; Colossians 1: 25-27 make it clear that the Church is a mystery and its nature as a body composed of Jew and Gentile alike was unrevealed in the Old Testament, the Church could not have been in view in this or any other Old Testament prophecy. Since the Church did not have its existence until after the death of Christ (Eph. 5: 25-26), until after the resurrection of Christ (Rom. 4: 25; Col. 3: 1-3), until after the ascension (Eph. 1: 19-20), and until after the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost with the inception of all His ministries to the believer (Acts 2), the Church could not have been in the first sixty-nine weeks of this prophecy. Since it had no part in the first sixty-nine weeks, which are related only to God’s program for Israel, it can have no part in the seventieth week, which is again related to God’s program for Israel after the mystery program for the Church has been concluded.

        In an extended treatment of each major passage in the Word on the subject of the tribulation, in which he deals with passages such as Mt. 24, Daniel 12, Luke 21, Mark 13, Jeremiah 30, Revelation 7, Kelly concludes:

        ...the view here maintained follows on a close investigation of every distinct passage that Scripture affords upon the subject of the great tribulation. I should be obliged to any one who will produce me other passages that refer to it; but I am not aware of them. I demand of those…whether they can point out one word which supposes a Christian or the Church on the earth when the great tribulation arrives? Have we not seen that the doctrine of Old and New Testament—of Jeremiah, of Daniel, of the Lord Jesus, and of the apostle John—is this, that, just before the Lord appears in glory, will come the last and unequalled trouble of Israel, though Jacob shall be delivered from it; that there will be …”the great tribulation,” out of which a multitude of Gentiles emerge; but that both Jacob and the Gentiles are totally distinct from the Christians of the Church. As regards the Christian, the positive promise of the Lord is, that such as have kept the word of his patience He will keep out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

        It must be concluded with the above author, since every passage dealing with the tribulation relates it to God’s program for Israel that the scope of the tribulation prevents the Church from participating in it.

        D. The purpose of the seventieth week. The Scriptures indicate that there are two major purposes to be accomplished in the seventieth week.

        The first purpose is stated in Rev. 3: 10, “I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Apart from the question involved as to who will be in this time of testing there are several other important considerations in this verse. (1) First of all we see that this period has in view “them that dwell on the earth” and not the Church. This same expression occurs in Rev. 6: 10; 11: 10; 13: 8, 12, 14; 14: 6 and 17: 8. In its usage it is not giving us a geographical description but rather a moral classification. Thiessen writes:

        Now the word” dwell” used here (katoikeo) is a strong word. It is used to describe the fullness of the Godhead that dwelt in Christ (Col. 2: 9); it is used of Christ’s taking up a permanent abode in the believer’s heart (Eph. 3: 17), and of demons returning to take absolute possession of a man (Mt. 12: 45; Luke 11: 26). It is to be distinguished from the word oikeo, which is the general term for “dwell,” and paroikeo, which has the idea of transitoriness, “to sojourn.” Thayer remarks that the term katoikeo has the idea of permanence in it. Thus the judgment referred to in Rev. 3: 10 is directed against the earth-dwellers of that day, against those who have settled down in the earth as their real home, who have identified themselves with the earth’s commerce and religion.

        Since this period is related to “earth dwellers”, those that have settled down to permanent occupancy, it can have no reference to the Church, which would be subjected to the same experiences if it were here. (2) The second consideration to be noted here is the use of the infinitive peirasai (to try) to express purpose. Thayer defines this word, when God is its subject, “to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith.” Since the Father never sees the Church except in Christ, perfected in Him, this period can have no reference to the Church, for the true Church does not need to be tested to see if her faith is genuine.

        More to follow in post #3 !It gets really exciting!

      • Skywatcher

        Corey, here is the promised post #3, in continuation!

        The second major purpose of the seventieth week is in relation to Israel. In Malachi 4: 5-6 it is stated: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

        The prophet states that the ministry of this Elijah was a ministry to prepare the people for the King who was shortly to come. In Luke 1: 17 it is promised that the son born to Zacharias would “go before him in the spirit and power of Elias” to perform this very ministry and “to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” Concerning the coming of Elijah which was to have been a sign to Israel, the Lord states:

        Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at naught. But I say unto you, that Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him [Mk. 9: 12-13].

        The Lord was showing the disciples that John the Baptist had this ministry of preparing a people for Him. And to remove all doubt, the word in Mt. 11: 14 is conclusive, “if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.” John’s ministry was a ministry to prepare the nation Israel for the coming of the King. It can only be concluded then that Elijah, who is to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord, can have only one ministry: That of preparing a remnant in Israel for the advent of the Lord. It is evident that no such ministry is needed by the Church since she by nature is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but is holy and without blemish.

        These two purposes, the testing of earth dwellers, and the preparation of Israel for the King, have no relation to the Church whatsoever. This is supporting evidence that the Church will not be in the seventieth week.

        E. The unity of the seventieth week. It should be observed from the three preceding considerations that the entire seventieth week is in view when it is described and predicted in prophecy. While all would agree, on the basis of Daniel 9: 27: Mt. 24: 15; and Rev. 13, that the week is divided into two parts of three and one-half years each, yet the nature and character of the week is one, permeating both parts in their entirety. It becomes impossible to permit the existence of the Church in the week as a unit and it becomes equally impossible to adopt the position that the Church, although exempt from a portion of the seventieth week, may be in the first half of it, for its nature is the same throughout. The impossibility of including the Church in the last half makes it equally impossible to include it in the first half, for while Scripture divides the times of the week, it does not make any distinction as to the nature and character of the two parts of it.
        F. The nature of the Church. One must carefully observe certain distinctions between the Church and Israel which are clearly set forth in the Scripture, but often neglected in the consideration at hand. (1) There is a distinction between the professing Church and national Israel. It should be observed that the professing Church is composed of those who make a profession of faith in Christ. To some this profession is based on reality and to some on no reality at all. This latter group will go into the tribulation period, for Rev. 2: 22 indicates clearly that the unsaved professing Church will experience this visitation of wrath. Membership in the group called national Israel is based on a physical birth, and all in this group who are not saved and removed by rapture and who are alive at the time of the rapture will, with the professing Church, be subjected to the wrath of the tribulation. (2) There is a distinction between the true Church and the professing Church. The true Church is composed of all those in this age who have received Christ as Saviour. Over against this we have the professing Church composed of those who make a profession of receiving Christ without actually receiving Him. Only the true Church will be raptured. (3) There is a distinction between the true Church and true or spiritual Israel. Prior to Pentecost there were saved individuals, but there was no Church, and they were a part of spiritual Israel, not the Church. After the day of Pentecost and until the rapture we find the Church which is His body, but no spiritual Israel. After the rapture we find no Church, but a true or spiritual Israel again. These distinctions must be kept clearly in mind.
        The rapture will remove, not all who make a profession of faith in Christ, but only those who have been born again and have received His life. The unbelieving portion of the visible Church together with unbelievers in the nation Israel will go into the tribulation period.

        Since the Church is the body, of which Christ is the head (Eph. 1: 22; 5: 23; Col. 1: 18), the bride, of which He is the Bridegroom (1 Cor. 11: 2; Eph. 5: 23), the object of His love (Eph. 5: 25), the branch of which He is the Root and Stem (John 15: 5), the building, of which He is the Foundation and Cornerstone (I Cor. 3: 9; Eph. 2: 19-22), there exists between the believer and the Lord a union and a unity. The believer is no longer separated from Him, but brought into the closest oneness with Him. If the Church is in the seventieth week, she is subjected to the wrath, judgment, and indignation which characterizes the period, and because of her oneness with Christ, He, likewise, would be subjected to that same visitation! (emphasis added) This is impossible according to I John 4: 17, for He can not be brought into judgment again. Inasmuch as the Church has been perfected and delivered from all judgment (Rom. 8: 1; John 5: 24; I John 4: 17), if she is subjected to judgment again the promises of God would be of none effect and the death of Christ would be ineffectual. Who would dare to assert that the death of Christ could fail to accomplish its purpose? [Emphasis added] While the members may be experimentally imperfect and need experimental cleansing, yet the Church, which is His body, has a perfect standing in Christ and could not need such cleansing. The nature of the testing in the seventieth week, as stated in Rev. 3: 10, is not to bring the individual to cleansing, but to reveal the degradation and need of the unregenerate heart. The nature of the Church prevents such a testing.
        Again, Rev. 13: 7 makes it clear that all who are in the seventieth week are brought into subjection to the Beast and through him to Satan, who gives the Beast his power. If the Church were in this period she would be subjected to Satan, and Christ would either lose His place as Head, or He, Himself, because of His union with the Church, would be likewise subjected to Satan’s authority. Such a thing is unthinkable. Thus it is concluded that the nature of the Church and the completeness of her salvation prevent her from being in the seventieth week.

        Post #4, the last is forthcoming!

      • Skywatcher

        Here is the last post Corey, that will give you the complete overview that you’ve been reading about! I trust it will bless your heart as much as it does mine!

        G. The concept of the Church as a mystery. Closely related to the previous consideration is the concept given to us in the New Testament that the Church is a mystery. It was no mystery that God was going to provide salvation for the Jews, nor that Gentiles would be blessed in salvation. The fact that God was going to form Jews and Gentiles alike into one body was never revealed in the Old Testament and forms the mystery of which Paul speaks in Eph. 3: 1-7; Rom. 16: 25-27; Col. 1: 26-29. This whole mystery program was not revealed until after the rejection of Christ by Israel. It was after the rejection of Mt. 12: 23-24 that the Lord first makes a prophecy of the coming Church in Mt. 16: 18. It is after the rejection of the Cross that the Church had its inception in Acts 2. It was after the final rejection by Israel that God called out Paul to be the Apostle of the Gentiles through whom this mystery of the nature of the Church is revealed. The Church is manifestly an interruption of God’s program for Israel, which was not brought into being until Israel’s rejection of the offer of the Kingdom. It must logically follow that this mystery program must itself be brought to a conclusion before God can resume His dealing with the nation Israel, as has been shown previously He will do. The mystery program, which was so distinct in its inception, will certainly be separate at its conclusion. This program must be concluded before God resumes and culminates His program for Israel. This mystery concept of the Church makes a pretribulation rapture a necessity.
        H. The distinctions between Israel and the Church. Chafer has set forth twenty-four contrasts between Israel and the Church which show us conclusively that these two groups can not be united into one, but that they must be distinguished as two separate entities with whom God is dealing in a special program.

        These contrasts may be outlined as follows: (1) The extent of Biblical revelation: Israel—nearly four-fifths of the Bible; Church—about one-fifth. (2) The Divine purpose: Israel—the earthly promises in the covenants; Church—the heavenly promises in the gospel. (3) The seed of Abraham: Israel—the physical seed, of whom some become a spiritual seed; Church—a spiritual seed. (4) Birth: Israel—physical birth that produces a relationship; Church—spiritual birth that brings relationship. (5) Headship: Israel—Abraham; Church—Christ. (6) Covenants: Israel—Abrahamic and all the following covenants; Church—indirectly related to the Abrahamic and new covenants; (7) Nationality: Israel—one nation; Church—from all nations. (8) Divine dealing: Israel—national and individual’ Church—individual only. (9) Dispensations: Israel—seen in all ages from Abraham; Church—seen only in this present age. (10) Ministry: Israel—no missionary activity and no gospel to preach; Church—a commission to fulfill. (11) The death of Christ: Israel—guilty nationally, to be saved by it; Church—perfectly saved by it now. (12) The Father: Israel—by a peculiar relationship God was Father to the nation; Church—we are related individually to God as Father. (13) Christ: Israel—Messiah, Immanuel, King; Church—Savior, Lord, Bridegroom, Head. (14) The Holy Spirit: Israel—came upon some temporarily; Church—indwells all. (15) Governing principle: Israel—Mosaic law system; Church—grace system. (16) Divine enablement: Israel—none; Church—the indwelling Holy spirit. (17) Two farewell discourses: Israel—Olivet discourse; Church—upper room discourse. (18) The promise of Christ’s return: Israel—in power and glory for judgment; Church—to receive us unto Himself. (19) Position: Israel—a servant; Church—members of the family. (20) Christ’s earthly reign: Israel—subjects; Church—co-reigners. (21) Priesthood: Israel—had a priesthood; Church—is a priesthood. (22) Marriage: Israel—unfaithful wife; Church—bride. (23) Judgments: Israel—must face judgment; Church-delivered from all judgments. (24) Positions in eternity: Israel—spirits of just men made perfect in the new earth; Church—Church of the firstborn in the new heavens.
        These clear contrasts, which show the distinction between Israel and the Church, make it impossible to identify the two in one program, which it is necessary to do if the Church goes through the seventieth week. These distinctions give further support to the pretribulation rapture position.

    • David Kaus


      I tried to post a reply to you on the page you asked for one but Now The End Begins isn’t allowing it to be posted. Every time I try to post something a window pops up telling me that I’m posting too soon. Well, that is hardly the case as my posting dates, and times will clearly show. I’m simply being prevented from posting or responding to people. Let’s see if this gets through.

      MRH it seems that you can not even understand the scripture you quoted but have only put your own spin on it. 1Co 13:8-10 KJV – Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

      That which is perfect has come, the completed Scripture, and as stated in 1 Cor 13:8-10 when that comes the gift of tongues, etc shall vanish away. This isn’t just my reasoning it is what Scripture clearly says. Some how your reasoning is that the statement of Scripture about tongues ceasing can not be true because it also states that the gift of knowledge shall vanish away, and prophecies shall also. That’s the subjective “logic/reasoning” you bring forth in your accusation and denial of what Scripture states to be true. And your reasoning is rejecting what God clearly is stating.

      Now if you want to use some reasoning then ask yourself why these gifts were given to the early church ? As I stated the gift of real languages “tongues” was given for the unbelieving Jew. Such was clearly the case at Pentecost Acts 2:4-11; Samaria Acts 8:14-17; and Cornelius the centurion’s house in Acts 10:44-46. In each case the gift given was as verification to the unbelieving Jew’s that the Gentiles, and Samaritans were not to be called unclean, but are on equal terms with the Jews in God’s eyes in the body of Christ.

      At Pentecost the unbelieving Jews were those from other nations in Jerusalem.

      The Samaritans were hated by the Jews, the apostles marveled that Jesus would talk to a Samaritan woman. These same apostles heard that the Samaritans received the word of God, and went to them from Jerusalem to authenticate that they also received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when they laid their hands on them thus affirming that it was witnessed, and administered by the leaders of the Church.

      The events prior to the house of Cornelius being given the gift of tongues with the baptism of the Holy Spirit after they heard the Word of God from Peter, shows us that Peter, a Jew, had to be instructed by God not to call unclean what He had called clean. The Holy Spirit told Peter to go to the house of Cornelius not doubting. In each of these cases mentioned there are unbelieving Jews witnessing “the wonderful works of God” being spoken in another language to verify that the Gentiles/Samaritans were on equal terms with the believing Jews.

      Here is another Scripture that speaks of the sign of other tongues being given to Israel:

      “Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. “In the law” it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak “unto this people;” and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe” (1 Cor. 14:20-22).

      Isaiah 28:11 is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14:21 again witnessing to the fact that God would speak to unbelieving Jews in another tongue.

      After Jerusalem fell in 70 A.D. in its rejection of Jesus Christ as their Messiah, there was no further need of the sign of tongues God, miraculously gave, to show them that the New Covenant included Jews and Gentiles. In addition by this time many Gentiles had come to belief in Jesus Christ as well as Jews.

      It is important to realize that the “gift” of knowledge would cease after that which was perfect was come, and not knowledge itself, and the prophetic Word of God in Scripture would also cease after Scripture was completed.

      At the time of the writing of 1 Corinthians there were only two other Epistles that preceded it; 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, and the Gospel of Matthew. Obviously a tremendous amount of knowledge, and prophetic word were not available to the Church when 1 Corinthians was written since only 4 of the 27 books were available at that time to some degree depending on their distribution. That created a need for some type of clear guidance for the Church then that would be infallible. The “gifts” of knowledge, and prophecy guided the church in areas, and subjects not available to them till Scripture was complete.

      Greek was the universal language for the most part in apostolic times, and God had the New Testament written out in Greek to have it easily spread throughout the Gentile world. As time went on the New Testament was translated into other Gentile languages.

      Today with the Bible available in just about every known major language, and the cannon of Scripture being completed, what need is there to speak in the Church to anyone one in another tongue ??? even if it wasn’t a sign for the Jews, or to give a Scriptural prophetic word ??? or to add and knowledge to God’s Word. In fact there is a warning in Scripture that anyone who would add or subtract from Scripture is cursed of God.

      Paul’s admonition in 1 Corinthians about not to forbid to speak in tongues has to be taken in context with every thing else in 1 Corinthians about speaking in tongues. His statement therefore does not exclude the fact that he went on to say that the gift of tongues would cease when that which is perfect is come, and that it was a sign for the unbelieving Jew.

      When a clear understanding of the purpose of the gifts of knowledge, and prophecy, and tongues is seen it clears up a lot of confusion about why God has foretold of those gifts ceasing when that which is perfect, Scripture, is completed.

      • MRH

        “Every time I try to post something a window pops up telling me that I’m posting too soon”

        @ David Kaus: Yeah I got that odd message too, I think because I did a copy/paste block.

        “That which is perfect has come, the completed Scripture, and as stated in 1 Cor 13:8-10 when that comes the gift of tongues, etc shall vanish away”

        Not true at all! Read the rest of passage and related one below it 😉

        1Co 13:10-13 KJV – But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

        Eph 4:8, 11-13 KJV – Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. … And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

        P.S. Do we have perfect knowledge now? Is the church in perfect unity? Are we perfect people? I honestly think not! None of these things will occur until after the resurrection, which is at the second coming. The bible is certainly not perfect either, rather it’s merely a guide unto holiness. Nothing is perfect in this world but the holy seed planted within each believer. We are still flesh sinners by the bible. Do you not understand?

        • David Kaus

          When “that which is perfect is come,” is spoken of in 1 Corinthians it is referring to Scripture, and not unity of the Faith, nor perfect knowledge, now perfect people.

          If you do not believe that God’s Word is infallible then you might as well throw it away for then you have no sure foundation to stand on, and your opinions are just as good as anyone eles’s. If you want a mere guide line to holiness, then join Islam, or any other pagan religion. You are a long way off from what is taught in Scripture.

          Nothing that you stated in Ephesians 4 has anything to do with the fact that Scripture stated clearly that tongues will cease when that which is perfect is come. But they all have some thing to do with maturity in Jesus Christ, and walking as He walked, living Epistles seen of men.

          The gifts God gave to men in Ephesians 4 are clearly stated, and the gifts of tongues are not among them. 1 Corintians speaks very specifically about tongues ceasing. Read carefulling about what I stated about the gift of tongues in my first post, and its purpose, which was fulfilled.

          The fullness of Christ we are to atain to in this life spoken of in Ephesians 4, is His Character, not mere book learning but an application of God’s Word to our lives to where we are no longer led about by every stange doctrine, and have spiritual discernment in our lives knowing the wiles of the devil and how he works to deceive us. In order to attain this God has given us His Word through apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, etc., and they are NOT a mere guide lines, but detailed information.

          Unfortunatley I understand perfectly where people like you are coming from, and it has nothing to do with the perfecting of the body of Jesus Christ till we all come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

          • MRH

            @ David Kaus: If the gifts are ceased then so is the church gone, for it is the gifts which form the power in the church. Without the gifts the church is just a worthless religious organization. Which is indeed the case with most churches as they have rejected the power of God. And as a result have been transformed into worldly institutions. And as individuals, if we deny Gods power in our lives, then we saints are no better than the sinners. And scripture clearly states that tongues serve two purposes; to build our spirit, and to convince sinners. But tongues is only one of the nine gift manifestations. Faith is also one of the gifts, and required for all. For if we doubt the gifts then we can’t operate them. It’s like if we doubt we can drive a car, then we wont be able to drive. Which brings to mind the following scripture 😉

            Mat 14:26-31 KJV – And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

            P.S. So you see, by denying the gifts, you are deluding yourself. You have no spiritual power to offer the church, and you are not alone either. The greater majority of Christians are powerless religious zealots 🙁

  • Fred

    All i will add at this point is that i studied to be a priest in Rome in the mid 70s. Met mother Theresa,, among others. Im not staking no claim to fame , just that ive been around. Met the leading excorcist while there,, saw the catacombs.. only a few remarks come to mind here. 1, the biggest hater and infiltrator of the roman Catholic church is freemasonry,, in 1976 pope paul VI, said that the very smoke of satan had entered the church at that time. Who can disagree with that?? Its clearly evident thru pope francis’ outright sins of ommision when asked publicly about homo sexuality or abortion.. his adage is always a big smile and ” we have to love the sinner”… hes an evil man i agree!! 2nd ,, in example,, if we were fighting in a trench,, id much rather fight along side of protestant, catholic and or eastern right Christians,, than a pack of filthy mulsims any day!!! Bottom line is do we have enough to worry about with the nwo barking up our tree presently with the anti Christ about to appear on the scene?? The disciples told Jesus that there were others healing and laying on of hands in other cities etc etc.. and that they were not a part of them.. Jesus said leave them be. He didnt say they were wrong.. so why the fuss .. people speak about Constantine being a pagan.. well so what.. so was saul of tarsus. Seems ever since the jew rejected Jesus Christ,, God has used the godless and gentiles to acccomplish His will on the earth. Surely every man has sinned and fallen short of the grace of God..God knows this . No i dont like many things about the catholic faith today, but its been thru hell since its foundings way back. When.. sure pope pius had a gun to his head.. he was told by hitlers henchmen either comply or die.. ok.. im not going to judge the man.. thats Gods job. We can go on and on about this or that is right or wrong. But til this day brothers and sisters in Christ.. satanists hate the cstholic church with a passion. I know ive bounced onto a lot of topics here , i get frustrated as to why the bickering when the enemy is at the door. Satan the father of lies the ravaging lion is destroying Christians all over the middle east and africa .. where is their rapture?? Sorry but pre rapture is a tool of the devil by which many will despair when they find themselves still here alive and well when the hammer comes down and the tribulation begins.. many will suicide and lose their faith..revelation clearly states the saints will be beheaded for their faith.. wheres their rapture??? Just because they didnt accept or didnt know about a rapture means theyre going to be left behind?? Sorry that dog dont hunt..
    I am catholic. Ive been to every denomination around.. seems everyone has the market cornered on salvation. But in the end Jesus Christ is Lord and i know He has a lot in store for us all .. we will then know all the mysteries of God.. thatll he an awesome day!! God bless and peace in the name of Jesus Christ!! +++


    MRH, you said, “@ Skywatcher: The birth pangs are sorrows, and we certainly are experiencing such all the time these latter days. Just tune into MSM”

    P.S. The world is melted in the end”

    Don’t forget, we also read that the world was once destroyed by a flood, but the planet is still here! It was NOT destroyed in the sense of annihilation, as I’ve already stated. Nor, is it going to be annhilated by fire, but renovated/rearranged.

    Mark, you’ve said to Martin_ZA: “Scripture declares that the resurrection (changing) occurs at Christs return, followed by the end of the world (wrath, harvest, day of the Lord), and deliverance of kingdom unto God (rapture). Read 1 Cor 15 ;)”

    Man! For having said you “know more than others”, you’ve sure made a mess of that extrapolation of Scriptures! Do you know there are numerous differences between the Rapture and the Second Advent?

    Here, let me lay them out for you, and others that you’re misleading with your limited knowledge of such:

    Distinctions between Rapture & Second Coming
    Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost, “Things to Come…A Study in Biblical Eschatology, Zondervan Publishing House, 1977, p. 206, 207,

    “There are a number of contrasts to be drawn between the Rapture (bodily translation) and the Second Coming which will show that they are not viewed as synonymous in Scripture. The fact of two separate programs is best seen by a number of contrasts drawn in Scripture between the two events.

    (1.) The translation (rapture) entails the removal of all believers, while the Second Coming entails the appearing or manifestation of the Son.

    (2) The translation sees the saints caught up into the air, and in the Second Coming He returns to the earth and they come WITH Him.

    (3) In the translation Christ comes to claim a bride, but in the Second Coming He returns with the bride.

    (4) The translation results in the removal of the church and the inception of the tribulation, and the Second Coming results in the establishment of the millennial kingdom (after the tribulation).

    (5) The translation is imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by a multitude of signs.

    (6) The translation brings a message of comfort, while the Second Coming is accompanied by a message of judgment.

    (7) The translation is related to the program for the church, while the Second Coming is related to the program for Israel and the world.

    (8) The translation is a mystery, while the Second Coming is predicted in both Testaments.

    (9) At the translation believers are judged (rewarded), but at the Second Coming the Gentiles and Israel are judged (whether they be Christians or not and rewarded as such).

    (10) The translation leaves creation unchanged, while the Second Coming entails the change in creation.

    (11) At the translation Gentiles are unaffected, while at the Second Coming Gentiles are judged.

    (12) At the translation Israel’s covenants are unfulfilled, but at the Second Coming all her covenants are fulfilled.

    (13) The translation has no particular relation to the program of God in relation to evil, while at the Second Coming evil is judged.

    (14) The translation is said to take place before the day of wrath, but the Second Coming follows it.

    (15) The translation is for believers only, but the Second Coming has its effect on all men.

    (16) The expectation of the church in regard to the translation is “the Lord is at hand” (Phil. 4: 5), while the expectation of Israel in regard to the Second Coming is “the kingdom is at hand” (Matt. 24:14).

    (17) The expectation of the Church at the translation is to be taken into the Lord’s presence, while the expectation of Israel at the Second Coming is to be taken into the kingdom. (W. E. Blackstone, Jesus Is Coming, New York: Fleming H. Revell, 1932, pp. 75-80)

    These, and other contrasts which might be presented, support the contention that these are two different programs and can not be unified into one event.”

    The rapture happens before (pre) tribulation (day of wrath, as mentioned in point #14) and there’s no denying that after one has examined very diligently ALL the evidence.

    I put my trust in the sages who’ve spent all their adult lives researching the Scriptures and other Holy Writs of the Church; they’ve debated the issue to death and reached their own conclusions based upon all the evidence, not upon what they hope for. They have diligently studied the Scriptures, the Jewish customs, cultures, traditions, politics, social structure, etc. to a much greater depth than most of us have the time or desire to do for ourselves.

    We need to thank God for these people who sacrificed their lives to uncover these very precious doctrinal truths; many have died for them so that we could have them! Burned at the stake, disemboweled, tortured, tarred, feathered and burned; severed limb from limb, beheaded, etc. Quite the price to pay to defend the truths that they had received from the hand of the Lord; all of His disciples were put to death for their faith in Him except for one. They physically walked and talked with Him; He made sure they understood what the message was that He wanted them to assist in promoting and preserving!

    I trust this will lend to a clearer understanding for you, Martin, and many others!

    • MRH

      @ sKYWATCHER: The scripture does not clearly detail the second coming, except to say that we are glorified at his first appearance, which is the first stage. Afterwards the end of the world begins, ending with dramatic second stage. As for the tribulation, it begins after the abomination is placed in the temple. But nowhere does it say that the rapture occurs prior. But it does say that the kingdom is later delivered up to God, which is when the gathering event occurs. It also says that we will be judging the world and fallen angels which rule it. Also where does it say that the church returns with Christ? It doesn’t. Rather it says that Christ returns with his angels. I guess you missed that passage? 😉

      1Co 15:22-24 KJV – For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming [#1]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God [#2], even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

      2Th 1:7-9 KJV – And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels [#3], In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

      #1 Referencing the resurrection of the saints 🙂
      #2 Referencing the rapture of the resurrected saints 🙂
      #3 Referencing the glorious appearance with his holy angels 🙂

      P.S. Well so much for the pre-tribulation fable, completely killed by the above passages 😉 But we are still saved from wrath, as we will be fearless immortals then. However scripture doesn’t detail things. Even so, I still stand my ground, that all tribulation theories are flawed. For one thing, the beast and his mark occur during the wrath, or latter half of the tribulation. Which is also signals the end of this wicked world. The next world stage begins with the millennium, and ends with the final judgment of the raised wicked. Followed by the new heaven and earth or paradise 😀

    • MRH

      One other important thing I forgot to mention. We will be judging this wicked world and it’s demons during wrath. And how can we do such if we are far up in heaven somewhere? 😉

      1Co 6:2-3 KJV – Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

      P.S. Gods not going to zap the church out until our final task is done here. But in our glorified bodies we will be invulnerable to Satan and his demons, as well the elements. Nothing will be able to hurt or kill us then, as death will be over for us mighty immortals. No more struggles and worries. And actually I look forward to that glorious day 😀

      • Skywatcher

        MRH, you wily rascal! 🙂

        You said, “@ sKYWATCHER: The scripture does not clearly detail the second coming, except to say that we are glorified at his first appearance, which is the first stage.”

        The Scriptures are abundantly clear, when you test the various scenarios, omitting the ones that clearly don’t work! You are then left with only the Pre-Trib. position.

        You said, “Also where does it say that the church returns with Christ? It doesn’t. Rather it says that Christ returns with his angels. I guess you missed that passage? ”

        You obviously didn’t look closely to the arguments for the Pre-Trib. rapture I gave you for you missed #3. It says, “(3) In the translation Christ comes to claim a bride, but in the Second Coming He returns WITH the bride.”

        The supporting text for that point is Col. 3: 4, “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.” I John 3: 2, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

        To give credence to that, seeing the Bride of Christ has already been caught up into Heaven via the Rapture, there MUST be a point in which she returns to earth WITH Christ, to rule and reign with Him as priests and kings in the Millennial reign. There is NO third coming of Christ to the earth.

        Also, when does the Head (Christ), after being united with the body (Church)ever travel apart from each other? It’s not possible in the natural realm, nor is it possible in the spiritual realm. Jesus confirms this in Mt. 19: 6, as he speaks of a married couple, “Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

        That’s a principle He put into place, and He cannot go against it! His Word is forever settled in Heaven.

        You said, “But nowhere does it say that the rapture occurs prior.” The word “rapture” isn’t found in the Holy Bible either, but we all know clearly that it is a biblical event! Of course the rapture occurs prior to the Great Trib. because after Rev. 3, she is not mentioned as being on earth again until the Second Advent!

        You see, everything is not plotted out for us point upon point, in the order in which they will necessarily occur. But, with good study skills, and good Bible helps, one can connect the dots in proper perspective.

        If I followed your theology in this regard, the Church would not be able to partake in the Millennial reign of Christ, and that’s not biblical.

        Again, you are so comical! You said, “Well so much for the pre-tribulation fable, completely killed by the above passages”.

        Hardly! You just didn’t follow the Scriptural reference trail and your arguments for such a belief do NOT hold water when weighed against the evidences for a Pre-Trib. Rapture! How did you manage to get side-tracked onto Pretribulation matters again as a result of this news story?! I swear, some people hang around like birds on a wire, just watching for a chance to swoop in and to make a mark on somebody’s car!

        I’ll stop here now; we’ve wasted too much time on this too many times in the past. I debate with you once in awhile, so others can see just how weak your arguments are! 🙂 Love ya, brother! We can agree to disagree! I couldn’t care less when the Rapture is, as long as I’m in it!

        PS, I too, forgot to address your following comment, “One other important thing I forgot to mention. We will be judging this wicked world and it’s demons during wrath. And how can we do such if we are far up in heaven somewhere?

        1Co 6:2-3 KJV – Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”

        This is true, but this passage doesn’t say when, does it! You neatly tucked it in where you thought it belonged, but you’ve got it in the wrong hole.

        • MRH

          @ Skywatcher: Our next life begins at the resurrection prior to the end. We will be judging the world on judgment day which is the harvest period or worlds end. Which means we will be on earth during it. We go to heaven when the kingdom is delivered up to God in the end. Anyway, I’m sorry, but you are reading into scripture to support your position. Fact of the matter, we all do such including myself, if scripture vague on topic. And in regards to the second coming there are many vague elements. Remember that none but God knows the time? Thus said, there is no way by scripture to determine things. But of course that’s not going to stop us from trying is it? After all there have been many date setters over the years, and I’m sure many more to come as the holy hour approaches? Jesus gives us a brief glimpse into things 😉

          Mat 24:21-28 KJV – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

          P.S. The bible doesn’t say what the abomination is, but from my research it may well be the capped pyramid. It is believed by some that when the floating capstone drops onto the base the pyramid the NWO is born. Which is Satan’s hour or the great tribulation. But nothings going to happen until the temple rises on the mount. And that’s not going to occur until Islam is subdued or destroyed. So all we can do is watch, wait, and see 😉

  • I never said a “SATAN” statement before. You miinterpered it & then took my “REPLY” off. A Christian Site” ???

  • Claire

    Indeed, the images are not a depiction of the LORD Jesus the Christ.

    The images are blasphemy.

    The 2 finger sign is used extensively in magick and witchcraft to summon demons against the audience.

    It is wicked.

  • Eugenio Pacelli, Pope Pius XII helped Mussolini to raise to power.
    Both the Vatican and Mussolini were involved with Hitler’s Nazi persecutions.
    It is revealed that the Pope also had helped Hitler to power and at the same time undermined potential Catholic resistance in Germany. It showed that he had implicitly denied and trivialized the Holocaust, despite having reliable knowledge of its true extent. And, worse, that he was a hypocrite, for after the war he had retrospectively taken undue credit for speaking out boldly against the Nazi persecution of the Jews.

    More here:


  • I am not sure of the validity of this, but it sure gives you something to think about… like…

    More End Time News At:

  • Pingback: Fable 2 How To Get Middle Finger | howtocap.com()


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