The Rapture

The Pretribulation Rapture

While we cannot name the exact date of the Lord’s Return its nearness may be known by the character of the Times. As to this the New Testament gives no uncertain sound. In Dan. 12:4, Dan. 12:9-10, we read, “But thou, 0 Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the Book, even to the ‘TIME OF THE END’: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.. Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the ‘TIME OF THE END.’ Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but the WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND.”

 

These words declare that the prophecies of Daniel were to be “shut up” and “sealed” until the “TIME OF THE END.” This expression does not mean the “end of Time, ” but is the angelic messenger’s way of referring to the “Last Days” of the “Times of the Gentiles.” At which time he declares that the Book will be “unsealed, ” and “knowledge shall be increased.” What is here meant is “prophetic knowledge” of the things recorded in the Book of Daniel and other prophetic writings of the Scriptures.

This is made clear by the statement that only the “wise” shall understand. That is, those who are enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and not those who merely have intellectual knowledge, for the wicked SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND. How wonderfully this is true of these days. The Higher Critics have labored hard to discredit the Book of Daniel, but without avail, for the Book is more studied than ever, and is being “unsealed” by Holy Spirit enlightened students of the Word of God, who clearly see that we have reached the “Time of the End, ” and are living in the closing days of the “Times of the Gentiles.”

Click here to read our 7-part series on the Rapture and the Tribulation…

 

  • #1 written by Marcie
    about 3 years ago

    Reading Daniel one of the things that impresses me is the life of King Nebacuznezzer…he goes from a pagon king to a worshiper of the Living God due to what God does in his life.
    I like this diagram because it clearly shows the “Time of the Gentiles” in relation to the major governments. Also, showing the statue on the horizontal clearly shows the ages.
    Could you indicate on this chart the 7 feasts of God too?
    Jesus is seen in these feasts:
    First Coming:
    Passover, the Lamb of God~Crucifixion
    Feast of Unlevened Bread~Jesus Christ sinless death
    First Fruits~Jesus Christ the First Risen from the dead.
    Pentecost~Holy Spirit given to Believers in Christ
    Second Coming of the Messiah:
    Rosh Shananna~Gathering, Sounding of the Trumpet, Day of the Lord~Time of Jacob’s Trouble~but they will be saved out of it.
    Yom Kippur~Great Day of Attonement
    Tabernacles~God and man finally tabernacle together

    • #2 written by ludwig arpon
      about 2 years ago

      Message from the Lamb

      The scholars and reverends sit on my seat of authority.

      So observe and practice all they tell you; but do not do what they do, for they preach, but do not practice.

      They tie up heavy loads, hard to bear, and place them on men’s shoulders, by making a Law out of the grace I gave, but they themselves cannot in any way lift a finger to help them for they live only for themselves.

      They do all their works to be seen of men; for they quote bible verses and add to their authority according to their educational attainment and the honors they receive from the schools they studied and from the places they preached; and they take pleasure in and thus love the place of honor in gatherings and the best seats and pulpits in their churches; and to be greeted with honor in the marketplaces and to have people call them pastor.

      But you are not to be called pastor or teacher, for you have one Pastor and Teacher and you are all brothers; and do not call anyone in the church on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in heaven.

      And you must not be called masters or leaders, for you have one Master, the Christ.

      He who is greatest among you shall be your servant.

      Whoever exalts himself with haughtiness and empty pride shall be humbled, brought low, and whoever humbles himself, whoever has a modest opinion of himself and behaves accordingly shall be raised to honor.

      But woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you shut eternity in men’s faces; for you neither enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are about to go in to do so.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you enlarge your local church like a cancer cell in my body and for a pretense to cover it up and accept prayer requests for cover up or financial gain; therefore you are heaping up greater condemnation and the heavier sentence upon yourselves.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you travel over sea and land to make a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him doubly as much an antichrist as you are.

      Woe to you, blind pastors, who say, If anyone swears by the local church and by the name of Jesus, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the tithes of the local church, he is a debtor bound by his oath.

      You blind fools! For which is greater: the tithes, or the Name by which the church is derived that has made the tithes sacred?

      You say too, Whoever swears by the service of the church is not duty bound; but whoever swears by the love offering on the worship service, his oath is binding.

      You blind men! Which is greater: the love offering, or the service you gave to the church which makes the love offering sacred?

      So whoever swears by the service swears by it and by everything on it. And he who swears by the church of God swears by it and by Him Who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by Him Who sits upon it.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you give a tenth of your financial gains, and have neglected and omitted the weightier and more important matters of grace–right and justice and mercy and fidelity and faith as a gift. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

      You blind guides, filtering out a gnat and gulping down a camel!

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, pretenders hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but within they are full of extortion prey, spoil, plunder and grasping self-indulgence. You blind reverend! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, pretenders hypocrites! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything impure. Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you write bible-related books but neglecting the true and deep meaning of the Word and tell the world about the good deeds of the authors and of those who give the most tithes, saying, “If we had lived in the days of the apostles, we would not have aided the savage wolves from among them from preaching a false gospel”. Thus you are testifying against yourselves that you are one of those who preached a false gospel.

      Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins to the brim so that nothing may be wanting to a full measure.

      You serpents! You spawn of vipers! How can you escape the penalty to be suffered from within yourselves and the mourning that will take over you when you see the sign of the Son of Man?

      Because of this, take notice: I am writing you this message and lessons from the very Scripture you claim to uphold; some of them you will reject, even detest, and slander among your local churches and spread fallacy about it among your neighbors, so that upon your heads may come all the Word of God which brings life and the commandment you chose not to follow, from the book of genesis to the revelation, whom you did not give importance in your community and in your life in general.

      Truly I declare to you, all these evil, calamitous times are already happening in this generation.

      O Church, Church, twisting my words and rejecting my faithful servants sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and you refused!

      Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate abandoned and left destitute of God’s help.

      However I declare to you, you will now see me again and you shall say, “Blessed magnified in worship, adored, and exalted is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!”

      • #3 written by sharon hatley
        about 1 year ago

        Wow! what words from God! Spirit filled–blessed my soul– God spoke to me about two months ago. He said, “It is near, even at the door.” Even so, come Lord Jesus!

        • #4 written by Beatrice Mugisha
          about 10 months ago

          Sharon, I get excited everytime I read such mail as yours. I am looking forward for His coming, I want to be with Him forever and ever Amen

      • #5 written by Jondi
        about 1 year ago

        Is this scripture or a word you recieved?

    • #6 written by ludwig arpon
      about 2 years ago

      TO THE PILGRIMS OF THE DISPERSION
      1 Peter 1:1-2 NKJV

      The summary of the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his bondservants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw – that is, the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this message, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

      Then He said to me, “You are to make a fresh prophecy concerning many peoples and races and nations and languages and kings.”

      The Gospel of Eternity

      In the beginning, the Father (the will), the Son (righteousness), the Holy Spirit (angels as one), Man (Divine Nature), and Life already existed as one entity. God was all and in all.

      When God created the heavens and the earth, He is actually dispersing Himself. Time, decay and restoration started moving and dispersing themselves. God shattered Himself into pieces yet is eternally One. The Father’s will shattered into many individual wills; the Son became sin; the Holy Spirit became fragmented giving birth to the angels; Man’s divine nature turned into sinful nature; and Death reigned. ((Eph 1:9-10;22;3:15; Rev 22:13; Col 1:20; )

      The first Man, Adam already existed in God’s mind before the creation. (Eph 1:4) When He allowed Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God already began subjecting all creations to disobedience (Rom 11:30). This does not include the Sovereign and Eternal Father who has written everything beforehand. (1 Cor 15:27-28) This is according to the Father’s good will to show mercy on them all so that they will know that God is love.

      When the Lord gave the Law to His people, He made a covenant with them. When Moses poured the blood of the covenant on His people, blood seeped into the land. Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

      No one is righteous. No one can fulfill the Law. For God so loved the world that He gave Himself, His One and only Son to come to earth and fulfill the Law.

      The Father has given the Son all authority to judge the creation, but He came not to judge the world but to save it. (Jn 3:17) He imputed judgment on Himself, condemning sin in His body, making it a public spectacle on the cross.

      Though sin was not found in Him, He who has no sin became sin itself so that all creation will become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21)

      When Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross, blood again seeped into the land. Adam ate the fruit of the tree of life, making peace with all creation whether things in heaven or things on earth through and by that sacred, and pure, unblemished and holy blood. (Col 1:19-20)

      He died and was buried. And God raised Him from the dead on the third day. He showed Himself to His witnesses and commissioned them to testify to His death and resurrection. After forty days, He was taken up to heaven, retaining the holes in His hands, feet and side so that when He comes back, He will become complete again.

      His faithful witnesses testified with all wisdom and knowledge by the fullness of God’s Spirit working in them. When their testimony came into completion, savage wolves came from among them and destroyed all of them. The first Temple was destroyed, not one of the stones remained, only the Foundation. (Mat 24:2;Acts 20:29)

      Then darkness reigned. The world was subjected to the ignorance of the Sovereign Truth. All creation groped in darkness. (Amos 8:11) Through it all, the Foundation, the Rock, the Corner Stone remained standing. (Eph 2:19-20)

      Now the Son has given His saints all authority to judge the world,(1 Cor 6:3-4) but He has found no one worthy. Nobody in heaven or on earth knew the Voice of the Shepherd (Is 50:2).

      Then God stirred up the hearts of His faithful servants from the east (Is 24:15-16) to seek His face and hear His Voice. With the boldness of the Spirit, they asked God for the nations. (Ps 2:8) And God heard them.

      Then the Spirit moved them to stand in behalf of the nations in the same way the Son stood in behalf of them. (Jer 31:11) This moved the very heart of the Shepherd. He found them worthy to share in His sufferings and His resplendent glory and His awesome power.

      He called them the Zion of the Holy One of Israel—His faithful bondservants, co-sharers of His sufferings, partakers of His glory, splendor, honor, power, dominion, authority and love. They are the Bride of the Son, the Helper and His very own body in conquering all creation by disarming all powers, authorities, and dominion and making them subject to the love of the Son. (Rev 19:11-14,19, 17:14;).

      Together, the Son and His Zion united the angels to the fullness of the Spirit, turned the sinful nature to divine nature, subdued death, and totally abolished it by turning sin into righteousness.

      When everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to the Father–the Will–Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all, be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life (1 Cor 15:24-26)

      Now there is one among Zion who is able and capable of totally and permanently surrendering his will to the Father. It is expedient for that one man to give up his spirit to totally and permanently submit his will to the Father so that all in Zion and all creation may be able to lay down their crowns to the King of kings.

      This man is the one whom the Christ mentioned as the sign of the Son of Man coming down with the clouds (Mat 24:20). When the man gave up His spirit for the Father, the Lamb who was slain took over His will.

      And He sent out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they gathered His elect, His chosen ones from the four winds, even from one end of the universe to the other. And He Himself was with them. (Mat 24:21)

      No one knows the end, not even the angels nor the Son, but only the Father. The Father is the will of the creation. Love is giving up the will. Once the will has been given up, the end has come for him. He does not worry of what is to come anymore for He has become one with the Father.

      The world will be destroyed by fire—a fire that will consume all creation whether things in heaven or on earth so that God will be One.

      I, the Lamb, the one like the Son of Man, testify to these things. I am not alone in this for the Father is with me. Amen.

      I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things.

      In the same manner that Lydia and the Jailer heard and believed the Gospel in behalf of their household (Acts 16:14-16, 29-34) I, Josephine Alinsob Quino, hear, accept this message with all my heart, mind, soul and spirit as truly coming from the Lord in behalf of all the family of God on earth and in heaven. By virtue of my being head of Zion of the Holy One of Israel, I stand in faith in behalf of all creation, that they too might believe and avail of the reward that Jesus brings with Him in His coming. Father God, in the same manner that you honored our act of faith when we at ZHOI repented and were baptized for the peoples of the world, we now ask you to honor yet another vicarious act for the whole of Your creation, that we may be finally One with You. This I ask in the Mighty Name of Your Precious Son Jesus Christ who loves us and gave His life for us. Let everyone who is likeminded say Amen!

      • #7 written by fahoo
        about 10 months ago

        I wanted to ask where you get this nonsense? If its not Biblical based … its nonsense. much of these things you wrote are in fact nonsense. Jesus never told us he was shattered. He is in fact still whole. His Spirit resides within believers throughout the world in fullness. The Trinity is still complete and whole, not shattered. Not broken. Whole/complete/fully intact. Please refrain from fleshly outbursts like this. Its unbecoming to the body as a whole.

  • #8 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    ‎1Pe 3:15 But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully. [Isa. 8:12, 13.]

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib.

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will
    be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib.

    Now, there are more, but no one can show any scriptural evidence for any of those questions.

    NO ONE.
    They cannot because they do not exist in the Bible.

    Many people may believe many things. I ran into someone last week that did not believe 2/3 of the New testament because he believed Paul disagree with his doctrines and rejected Paul (????? and not his doctrine, go figure)

    I just met another person online who does not believe the New testament is scripture.

    Just because these people believe these things, does not make those beliefs true! There MUST BE a scriptural basis for believing what we believe.

    The above 4 points must be in the Bible for a pre or mid trib rapture to be true because there are passages that state there is a gathering of God’s people to Jesus after the END of the Trib and it is a description of the Frist Resurrection.

    Therefore, there MUST be scriptural evidence for these doctrines if they are indeed TRUE. If there is no scriptural evidence that meets the above criteria, then the whole idea of a pre or mid trib rapture is FALSE. It is a LIE from satan.

    Now people will attempt to say many things, but if a pre trib or mid trib raptur is real, then the BIBLE will say so and the above passages will be in the Bible somewhere.

    Just because a person can explain or put together a bunch of verses and say the Bible teaches something, DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!
    A true doctrine must agree with the FULL COUNSEL of God and that includes Matt 24:29-31; II Thes 2:1-4. I Cor 15 that speaks of the dead being resurrected prior to the living, etc.

    A true doctrine MUST AGREE WITH ALL OF THESE PASSAGES. Unfortunately, no one can seem to find a verse, even ONE, that says there is a gathering of God’s people before the end of the trib.

    So, it cannot be true. That means, an awful lot of people are believing and Preaching A LIE!

    If that is not important, I do not know what is. I care deeply for everyone and want to see them walking with the Lord in HIS TRUTH, not some man-made lie. So I have asked questions which no one wants to answer. I am not causing dissension, I am asking HONEST QUESTIONS.

    I know what the Pre Trib arguments are, I used to believe pre trib, but then I saw some discrepancies and asked God about it. WHen I became willing to be WRONG about what I believed, HE showed me His Truth.

    We cannot set out to PROVE a doctrine. We must go to the FULL COUNSEL of God and see what He teaches us through the WHOLE BIBLE. Once we know ALL the facts, then we ask Him what they mean and HE will tell us His Truth IF we are willing to lay down our ideas in humility and allow HIM to be God and King over what we believe.

    I can “prove” using scriptures that anyone should go commit suicide. This is done by IGNORING all the verses that contradict that act and using just a few that could be used to support it. This does NOT make suicide something that is desirable.

    In the same way, a pre trib rapture may sound like a nice idea, BUT IT MUST AGREE with the WHOLE BIBLE for it to be possible.

    I have places only 4 questions using verses from the Bible that speak SPECIFICALLY AGAINST a pre trib rapture.

    In order for there to be a pre trib rapture, YOU must provide the scriptural proofs those questions ask for.

    IF YOU CANNOT DO THIS, then there is NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE, no matter how you feel about it, no matter how many more verses you think support it.

    WHY? Because the WHOLE BIBLE is just as true as the rest. Matt 24:29-31 is just as true as any argunment you may use. THere fore, there MUST be another gathering of God’s people before the end of the trib, for this gathering in Matt 24 occurs AFTER THE END of the trib. And of course the other 3 questions must also be answered as well.

    I know what you say about II Thes 2:6-8. Yes, I know you say that is the Holy Spirit or the Church being removed. BUT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THIS and that idea contradicts what is stated in II THES 2:1-4. So your idea about the later verses referring to the rapture is once again FALSE.

    The Bible does NOT contradict itself.

    Just because you cannot understand how this works, how all christians can go through the trib does not mean it is not true. You are not God. Neither am I. But God will NEVER contradict Himself.

    That means as I have stated above, YOU must provide scriptural answers for those 4 questions that do not contradict the Bible ANYWHERE!

    If you can do this fine, then I will conceed that you are correct and admit my error.

    If you cannot, will you do the same??????

    • #9 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      Dirk… go online and type in 7 year tribulation and Ribera. You will see where this false doctrine originated and why.(Precepts of Men). How could people follow this doctrine when Paul tell us…
      1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      now pay attention to what is said in this scripture…
      1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
      These verses clearly show that we will be standing here when Christ returns.
      Be Blessed

      • #10 written by Al Angelo
        about 3 years ago

        only the “wise” shall understand. That is, those who are enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and not those who merely have intellectual knowledge, for the wicked SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND. How wonderfully this is true of these days. The Higher Critics have labored hard to discredit the Book of Daniel, but without avail, for the Book is more studied than ever, and is being “unsealed” by Holy Spirit enlightened students of the Word of God, who clearly see that we have reached the “Time of the End, ” and are living in the closing days of the “Times of the Gentiles.”

      • #11 written by Kevin
        about 2 years ago

        It doesn’t matter what any of us believe or think will happen, it will be the way that God wants it to happen. But I recall of Matt. chapter 52 saying something about the dead already coming alive (which would be what 1 th 4 talks of the dead in Christ shall rise first.) then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (meaning when we die.) Doesn’t the Bible say that to be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord? Now for 1 Cor. 15 In a moment (In your timing when God draws you thru the spirit to be born again) in the twinkling of an eye (as quickly as you could blink God saves you) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible ( Pauls says your dead that have been born again your a brand new creature in Christ, More spirt than that of anything else. And we shall be changed (your changed spiritually not flesh, not soulical. And your right these verses do clearly show that we will be standing here when Christ returns (He told them that when I go away I will return He said that he would prepare a mansion that for were He is we will be also (Where is He but in those of us that have been changed He made us a dwelling place for Him That is what mansion means in the Greek, dwelling place). I am sorry if this isn’t what we all believe, but like I stated it really doesn’t matter because It will happen just as He plans it to be.

    • #12 written by matt T.
      about 3 years ago

      I personall cannot answer ur questions. although i do believe i know someone who can answer all your questions go to JVIM.COM he is an evangelistic end times preacher and has memorized thousands of versus of the scripture over the last 50 years.

    • #13 written by Daniel
      about 3 years ago

      Brother, Jack Van Impe gives the answer to your question. He also gives the original Greek meaning to key words to help you understand. One thing for sure if you are a believer you are going sometime, when I find myself arguing I try to commit that energy into winning souls who are hell bound. 0nly the enemy wants us to argue. See you there however we get there….that is what is important. If there is a catching away I will be in it, if not I will see Jesus at His second coming or at death…..Time to be a soul winner bro!

    • #14 written by April
      about 3 years ago

      The basic pattern is events happening up to the tribulation, like famines and wars. Once the whole world hears the gospel, the tribulation will begin. After the tribulation, Jesus will return. Then after Jesus comes, the rapture will happen. I referenced Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
      Yes, it is ridiculous that people choose not to believe the truth. This happens when people ignore what the bible says in favor of their own understanding and what tickles their ears.

      • #15 written by Al Angelo
        about 2 years ago

        Hello, April

        But how can we justify a Tribulation when the Lord tells us differently?

        One of the best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture of the Church is found in Revelation 3:10.

        FROM CHRIST

        “Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.”

        This verse is a promise made by Christ to one of His seven churches, the church of Philadelphia. The hour of trial Jesus speaks of in this verse is the period of time that our Lord calls the “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no,

        Go to the previous message (control+option+pagedown) Go to the next message (control+option+pageup) Close message (escape)
        Message View
        FINAL PROOF–best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture
        From: eagleprot@aol.com
        To: eagleprot@aol.com; GabeC007@aol.com
        Date: Sat, Apr 30, 2011 4:24 pm

        WHY DO YOU ANSWER THE QUESTIONS LIKE THIS FINAL PROOF FROM CHRIST’S WORDS WHICH PROVE THE EVENT?

        YOU CANNOT SKIP OR ANSWER THIS ONE AND I KNOW YOU CAN’T CALL THIS DISPENSATIONALISM AND ALL THAT CALVIN
        DEMONOLOGY…YOU NEVER ANSWER THE REAL QUESTIONS…HERE IT IS

        http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/rapturetrib.php
        One of the best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture of the Church is found in Revelation 3:10.

        FROM CHRIST

        “Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.”

        This verse is a promise made by Christ to one of His seven churches, the church of Philadelphia. The hour of trial Jesus speaks of in this verse is the period of time that our Lord calls the “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24:21).

        There are many verses in the Bible that describe the rapture. Christians in the first century church were so driven by the coming of their Lord and savior in the end-times that they shared their faith everywhere. Paul wrote to the Thessalonian church in I Thessalonians 1:6-10

        And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

        This belief in being taken up to meet Christ is the essence of hope. A hope that Satan will fight and challenge with all of his might.

        We also read the following in I Thessalonians 4:16-18

        “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage each other with these words.”

        The Lord will shout a loud command as he descends from heaven, and we will hear the voice of the archangel, perhaps to lead Israel during the seven years of tribulation as he did in the Old Testament. It should be an encouragement to all of us in these times of lust, greed, corruption, self-centeredness and resistance to all things that are not of God.

        • #16 written by Sam Fox
          about 1 year ago

          Al Angelo, don’t forget what was said to the other 6 churches. Those verses count as much as the ones to Philly. What you said is some what true, Poppa will keep us. But HOW? Lions den, fiery furnace, Noah’s ark, Peter in jail, Paul let down a wall in a basket…Poppa is able.

          1 Corinthians 10:13, Amplified
          For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to BEAR UP UNDER IT patiently. [Emphasis added]

          This is the only written definition of ‘escape’ given in the NT.

          Paul wrote to Timothy telling Tim that Father would see Paul safe to His heavenly kingdom. How did Paul die?

          If there is a pre TR, why are we told that we much persevere to the end. There are also calls in Revelation for the faith & patience of the saints.

          Do a word study on endure to the end, then faith & patience of the saints.

          John 6:39-40, 44 Why did Yeshua say that He would raise up those that believe on Him at the last day?

          Don’t forget, Yeshua’s 2nd advent is at the last trumpet, which coincides with the last 7th trumpets in Revelation.

          We don’t need a rapture, need a heavy duty relationship with Father, His Son, the Holy Spirit & their written word.

          If we are strong in Messiah, walking daily with Father, filled with His Spirit & know His written word, we have nothing to fear no matter what happens.

          In Yeshua,

          SamFox

          • #17 written by SamFox
            about 9 months ago

            More for Al Angelo–

            PTR advocates like to quote the verse in Rev. 2:10, “I will keep you from the hour of testing “as a basis for the PTR.

            It is true that Father WILL keep us, but He is not limited to flying us away to do it.

            In my comment above I listed 1 Cor. 10:13. Read it. then read Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:26, 2:17 3:12 & 21 about he that overcomes. If we are flown away, why these verses?

            Why also, is Rev. 2:9-11 ignored? The letter to Smyrna. Also the letter to Pergamum? Sardis? Laodicea?

            Picking only one church is not accurate.

            Also note that though the church at Philadelphia is told Father will keep them, those verses do not say how. That’s why people need to read 1Cor. 10:15 & the verses in Revelation about he that overcomes. I
            d strongly suggest the Amplified for these readings. You can do so at BibleGateWay.com

            Some OT people are said to be types of a rapture. But ignored are all the times Father protected His own without flying them any where. A few examples–

            Noah in the ark floated on the waters but never left earth
            Midwives wouldn’t kill the children
            Moses in Egypt
            Israel during the plagues
            Crossing the Red Sea
            Crossing the desert
            Elijah & prophets of Baal
            Walls of Jericho
            Gideon thrashing wheat
            Persecuted prophets of God
            Daniel & lion’s den
            Three in the furnace
            Mordecai, Esther & the Jews
            David & Goliath
            David & Saul
            Ps. 91

            NT:
            Jesus & the Jewish rulers
            The 12 protected when Jesus was ‘taken’.
            Angel instructs Joseph takes Jesus to Egypt
            Angel instructs Joseph, Joe goes to Nazareth
            Peter & Paul in prison
            Hebrews 11

            These are all ways Fathers keeps & protects His own that are far more in keeping with His plan for His people. Poppa rarely takes His people along a path of least resistance.

            Paul put it this way to Timothy–

            2 Timothy 4:18
            [And indeed] the Lord will certainly deliver and draw me to Himself from every assault of evil. He will preserve and bring me safe unto His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen (so be it).

            So how did Paul get to Father’s heavenly kingdom? He was murdered because he loved not his life even if it meant death.

            No one can be saved, post or pre-trib, any differently than any one else. There is ONE plan of salvation, only one.

            If there were a revival led by 144,000, why don’t they also qualify for a rapture of their own? Why, at their conversion would they NOT be born into the body of Christ, His Church & Bride? Are there a set of scriptures that apply only to pre trib & a set for post trib? No.

            All the PTR does is change what part of the Church is in the trib. But the teaching still leaves that part of the church in the trib.
            I say often, prepare for the worst while hoping for the best. Take your eyes of the PTR doctrine & refocus on Yeshua Messiah.

            If you do that, you can’t lose. If He comes PTR you’ll be ready. I warn in Jesus’ Name, if He doesn’t come PTR, will you be ready? Faith in HIM. Walk with Him. Know His word. Keep focus on Him & let what ever happens happen.

            Jesus did say after all, that he that endures to the end will be save & that He would raise ALL his own at the LAST day.

            God Help us all to love Him & be committed to Him no matter what comes.

            SamFox

    • #18 written by Al Angelo
      about 2 years ago

      Dirk,

      Did you miss the Lord’s words???

      FROM CHRIST’S WORDS WHICH PROVE THE EVENT?

      One of the best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture of the Church is found in Revelation 3:10.

      FROM CHRIST

      “Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.”

      This verse is a promise made by Christ to one of His seven churches, the church of Philadelphia. The hour of trial Jesus speaks of in this verse is the period of time that our Lord calls the “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24:21).

      There are many verses in the Bible that describe the rapture.

      This belief in being taken up to meet Christ is the essence of hope. A hope that Satan will fight and challenge with all of his might.

      We also read the following in I Thessalonians 4:16-18
      2ND PROOF
      “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage each other with these words.”
      ===================
      3RD PROOF
      “The bride of Christ shall NOT experience the Wrath of God…”

      The Rapture is characterized in the Bible as `translation coming’ see 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 in which Christ comes for His Church. The second advent is Christ returning with His saints, descending from heaven to establish His earthly kingdom. (Zecharia 14:4-5; Matthew 24:27-31)
      For post-trib believers the Rapture requires that the believers will be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27) although it was absent the first 69 weeks. The post-trib position denies imminency – emphasized by Jesus Himself. He could come any moment without warning, which means there are no signs before this event occurs. Post-trib contradicts Jesus’s promise, because the Bible clearly states an exact sequence of events during the tribulation.
      There is also the Scripture in Revelatiom 19:7,8,14 indicating that the Church, Christ’s Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth before the Second Coming.

      • #19 written by Dirk
        about 2 years ago

        AL,

        The problem is the WHOLE BIBLE IS TRUE. Any doctrine, any teaching that ACTUALLY comes from GOD will agree 100% with the Bible.

        You are interpreting this verse in Revelation with the idea of a pre trib rapture and we cannot honestly do this and come up with HIS TRUTH!

        We must go to the WHOLE BIBLE and see what the WHOLE BIBLE SAYS.

        The Whole Bible does NOT teach a pre trib rapture. How do I know this? Because of the 4 questions I have asked; because of the post I put here about a PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS IMPOSSIBLE!

        You see, in order for there to be a pre trib rapture, there has to be another place in the Bible that tells us God or Jesus gathers His people to Himself BEFORE the Tribulation. There is no verse.

        There must be a verse that SAYS the First Resurrection is divided into more than 1 section. THere is NO SUCH VERSE.

        There must be a verse that says II Thes 2:1-4 is wrong or does not apply to all Christians. There is no such verse.

        There must be a passage that says there is a secret, silent, unknown gathering of God’s people BEFORE the tribulation. There is no such passage.

        In fact, there are NO verses in context or passages that support a pre trib rapture when the WHOLE BIBLE is taken into consideration.

        NONE of your obejections mean anything other than you have a preconceived notion of that Jesus is referring to. But your notion is false because the REST of the Bible does NOT support or agree with a pre trib rapture.

        Stop trying to PROVE a pre trib rapture and answer the questions I have asked.

        Al, I could “prove” you should all go commit suicide just using the Bible. In fact, using the Bible, I could “prove” you should not only go commit suicide, but do it RIGHT NOW!

        Now that would be a false teaching and would not agree with the rest of the bible. But I could post some scriptures, JUST LIKE YOU PRE TRIB BELIEVERS DO that seem to support that idea IF we already have a preconceived notion or idea that there suicide is ok then I might actually believe it.

        It would NOT be true, but just as reliable as the verses you post concerning a pre trib rapture.

        But do you even understand what I am saying? Does it make any sense to you?

        You are trying to find a way to believe in a pre trib rapture.

        I want God’s truth.

        Who will find it? The one who honestly seeks for His truth even IF it disagrees with what I currently think is true.

        You see, you do not seek for His truth. You want to believe in a pre trib rapture and that just goes about it all backwards and wrong.

        But you will not understand. You will focus on the wrong thing in this post and take it all out of context to find another reason NOT to listen to God!

        • #20 written by A Fellow believer
          about 2 years ago

          Dirk, continue in your belief. The bible certainly agrees with your position. When I speak to people about the rapture, what I focus on is the tribulation that is coming. Those that believe in a pre-trib and mid-trib will be shocked when they face all the troubles that come with it. They may even lose their faith because they are not saved out of the tribulation when it comes. I feel it’s important that they at least see this possibility. What does the bible say? This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints. The tribulation is coming, and like gold and silver must go through the furnace to remove the dross, to make it pure, so it will be for us. Stay strong in the love of Christ.

    • #21 written by MikeIrish
      about 2 years ago

      a very great many of the evangelicals now do not believe in a literal hell and heaven…. just like the Jehovah witness….. so it is best not to go on what man believes….. even with pastors and preachers, there are a vast many of them that are preaching to tickle the ear, to get the body count in church up and ARE NOT PREACHING/TEACHING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED, RISEN…. and are not teaching repentance, ….. they are teaching a universalism doctrine that all will be saved, and THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS…

      some are teaching that once saved always saved, but in Rev. you will find that it also speaks about having names BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK… to be blotted out means that it once was there….. you can not blot something out if it was never there, so if you have been written into the Lambs Book of Life, You can be blotted out from it as well……..

      Christ said….. IF YOU LOVE ME….. YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, not out of obligation but out of love, for if you love some one you do things that will please them, not hurt them…….

      If I believe that there is a PRE TRIB rapture and am prepared for it, and it does not come, I AM STEADFAST IN CHRIST and have a better chance of making it through the Trib should there not be a Pre Trib rapture…..

      IF however, I wait until the Tribulation to try and get read for the Rapture (gathering) I will have a harder time doing it, for the Tribulation will be nothing more then a period of survival….

      I believe in a Pre Trib, for it is written that the RESTRAINER (THE HOLY SPIRIT/HOLY GHOST) WILL BE REMOVED, well, that restrainer of evil lives with in us, and is God going to remove the Holy Spirit from His People? NO!

      To Remove the Restrainer of evil, God will be taking His Children out of the way, so that the evil one, can have his way.

      With Gods People here, the evil one can not…… CAN NOT HAVE HIS WAY.

    • #22 written by MikeIrish
      about 2 years ago

      oh, by the way,

      at the end of the TRIB is the battle of Armageddon. so Christ is here on the earth. who is it He comes back with ?

      why would there be (in essence) three resurrections? there are two…. if Christ is here on earth, why would those dead in Christ rise, and then those that are alive and remain follow? Christ is here, not in Heaven at that time…. after the Battle of Armageddon He (Christ) rules the earth and satan is put away for 1000 years….. why would there be a resurrection at that time?

      Where would the 7 year wedding feast take place for the Bride and the Bridegroom? here on earth? not everyone that is on the earth will be righteous, they will have just made it through the tribulation with out denying Christ… then at the end of the 1000 years, satan and his cronies are released for a short season ( believed to be about 3.5 years) to go about their business again, trying to turn the heads of those with Christ……. then the battle of God and magog….

      as far as the Rapture (true, the word is not in the Bible, but the concept is there, just like the word grandfather is not in the Bible, but again, the concept is there….neither is the word trinity, and yet the concept is there, gen the Spirit of God is there, God is there, and in John, The Word (Christ) is also there…. IN THE BEGINNING…. (remember, let US…. plural…. make man..))

      when we see Christ again, He does not come to earth, He is in the clouds…… when He returns, it is to claim his Throne…… AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION and He will be riding a white….. HORSE…. not a cloud…..

      • #23 written by Dirk
        about 2 years ago

        Mike,

        You are very confused and are not reading the Bible properly.
        First of all, in II Thes 2, Paul tells us that BEFORE we are gathered to Him, the man of perdition MUST be revealed and declare himself to be God in the temple of God.

        Second, the only place in the Bible that says anything about something hindering the man of perdition being revealed is also in II thes 2 and IT DOES NOT SAY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ONE HINDERING. That is from your own mind because you have a preconceived notion that the Church must be taken off the earth first. BUT there is NO PLACE in the Bible that says this.

        Jesus tells us WHEN the First Resurrection takes place; AFTER THE END of the Great Tribulation. It is right there in RED in Matt 24:29-31; Jesus’ own words say that.

        You have many misconceptions, misunderstandings, and believe many lies. You are believing in the pre trib rapture and setting out to prove it finding verses that SEEM to agree with you. BUT that typw of study will ALWAYS lead to deception.

        The ONLY way to know is to see what the WHOLE BIBLE SAYS. If we do this, look at the WHOLE BIBLE and do not place one verse higher than another, we will find out that the Bible and Jesus both teach that there is only ONE Gathering of God’s people to Himself and that occurs after the END of the Tribulation.

        You are headed for a great disappointment.

      • #24 written by SamFox
        about 10 months ago

        MikeIrish, when He returns it’s with the saints who rise to meet Him in the air & whoever it is He brings from heaven. Those that are alive & remain rise to meet Him as He descends. No mystery. Remain? After what?? Pray on that.

        It’s like this,

        15 And the [Christian] brethren there, having had news of us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to meet us. When Paul saw them, he thanked God and received new courage.

        16 When we arrived at Rome,…

        We see that people traveled to meet Paul as he was going to Rome. They stayed with Paul as Paul traveled to & arrived there, at Rome.

        When Jesus comes we will meet Him in the air & accompany (‘travel’ with) Him to earth.

        Be careful abut departing from the simplicity that is in Christ. In 2 Cor. 11:3 KJV says simplicity. The Amplified puts it this way,

        2 Corinthians 11:3
        Amplified Bible (AMP) All verses from BibleGateway.com
        3 But [now] I am fearful, lest that even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, so your minds may be corrupted and seduced from wholehearted and sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

        What the PTR teaching does is seduce those that believe in it from devotion to Christ & re-focus to a devotion to a doctrine. It is a small step down, but a very critical one.

        If PTR devotees were devoted WHOLLY to Christ, they would be keeping their eyes on HIM, not something He might do. If He does it fine. If He doesn’t, still fine.

        If He doesn’t ‘do it’ just the way they think, if HE is the focus, it wouldn’t matter. My focus is on HIM. If He returns before the trib., I won’t miss it.

        If He DOESN’T come before then, where will YOU be??

        SamFox

    • #25 written by James R. Manning
      about 2 years ago

      In reference to the so-called “Rapture” you mentioned the Holy Scripture in Revelation 20 where these Saints are part off the 1st Resurrection. Well, this is the scripture, alone with those below in 1st Corinthians 15th chapter where our Lord via the Holy Spirit, began to instruct me that the Saints of God (would not) be “Raptured” out and\or taken off of the earth until the end of the Great Tribulation period. In Rev 20:5-6, it states that “Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the “second death” hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” In verse #4 it says that these Great Tribulation Saints were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the “Word of God”, who had not worshiped the Beast-666 nor had received his mark upon them and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. It plainly says that these Saints are part of the first Resurrection, and be assured, Jesus and the Holy scriptures only speaks of two resurrections, one of the just and one of the unjust. Now, the resurrection in Rev 20:4-6 is the same 1st Resurrection that our Brother Paul speaks about in 1Cor 15:12-56. This is where it states that: “The Last Enemy that shall be Destroyed is Death” and “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.” Now, if Death has been destroyed as pertaining to all the Saints of God, as defined in this 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians and this is certainly the 1st and only Resurrection of the “Righteous live and dead Saints which Bro. Paul instructs us in; then how is it that you say that death still reigns over the Saints of Revelation 20:4-6? If Jesus has already destroyed “Death” at the so-called “Rapture”, which is the 1st resurrection of the “Dead” before the Great Tribulation, then how do you explain all these Saints “Dieing” during the Tribulation and then at the end of it they are then resurrected in the 1st Resurrection? If those Saints in 1st Corinthians 15th chapter who are alive and remain to that day, will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and the Sainted dead shall rise is the 1st resurrection; then these saints and the saints in Rev 20: 4-6 are taking part in same and most historic and monumental event to ever unfold before the eyes of man. Remember, as the Holy Spirit had to remind me, that “The Last Enemy to be Destroyed, is Death.” This same “Death” that has terrorized and brought great fear into mans hearts ever since Adam and Eve broke God’s one and only commandant that was given to them in the Garden of Eden. Where God said, “Ye shall surely die.” Yes, this disobedient act brought with it not only physical death, but also spiritual death, which is the “Second Death” spoken of in Rev 20:6. The same “Death” that our Bro. Paul spoke about in the Book of Hebrews, as follows: (Heb 2:14-15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself (Jesus) likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.) Here is what our Lord Jesus said about “Death” and its power of fear over us his Saints. “What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:27-28) It is with the threat of physical death, that “Tyrants and Dictators force their heavy handed rule over those who are bound as slaves under them.

      The 2nd coming of Jesus, the appearing of Christ in the clouds of glory and the so-called “Rapture, are all the one and same event and it is going to transpire at the end of the Great Tribulation period. It is the Great Day of the Lord, the second greatest day that will ever happen in the annuals of man; the first and greatest day, was the day that Jesus blood was shed that paid for the sins of man, which gave all man an opportunity to receive eternal life. The teaching of a “Secret” snatching away of the Sainted dead and of those Christians who are alive before the Great Tribulation is of great error. And by it, you may weaken and destroy the faith of many when that deadly and disastrous period comes upon the world, because upon all in the whole world it shall surely come and no weak, anemic and worldly Church shall escape it. Here is what our Brother Peter had to say about this: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Pet 4:17-19) Now, that doesn’t sound like a quick escape artist does it? Please don’t let it be said of you as it was the said of the two teachers in 2nd Timothy: (“And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.) (2 Tim 2:17-18) I know that this website means well by that which you teach and you don’t intentionally mean to harm or mislead, but it’s time to come out of your ignorance concerning this subject. You could become a great tool in preparing the “Body of Christ” for the great darkness that is about to envelop the whole world. Many in that day and time will loose their faith in Jesus and the Holy scriptures and consequently their eternal life when they find themselves confronted with the decision of whether to take the mark to work, eat and live or whether to die a martyr’s death for Jesus and the Word of God; while all their lifetime they had been taught and believed that this day and decision would never come upon them. I hope you see my point; don’t you? As the old adage goes: “To be forewarned is to be forearmed.” This is what Jesus says, “But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.” (John 16:4)

      Keep you eyes upon Israel and the Jewish people for a true indication of the soon coming of our Lord for all his people, which include the Jew and the Gentile. Here is what our Brother Paul had to say about this: “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. As it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

      Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. (Rom 11:12 & 15 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?) This will be the 1st Resurrection of the dead in Christ, the Resurrection of the Just and the Changing in the twinkling of an eye of those who are alive and remain to the Lord’s Coming. As also shall the Saints of Rev 20: 4-6 be resurrected and changed at this same time. The same as those in 1Cor 15th chapter. 1Cor 15:26 “The Last Enemy, (of Christ and of all mankind) that shall be , is Death”!!! Death will no longer have any power over those who have believed and trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ henceforth and forever more.

      Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

      In Christ Service,
      James R. Manning

    • #26 written by Daniel
      about 2 years ago

      YUP. NO PRE-TRIP RAPTURE.

      HOWEVER, there will be a CONCEALING of some saints, like Revelation says,
      “I will keep you from”.

      Also, Isaiah says,
      “enter into your inner chambers, until the indignation has passed.”

      and Psalm 91 says,
      “a thousand fall at my left, and ten thousand at my right, but it doesn’t come near me.”

    • #27 written by SamFox
      about 2 years ago

      Problem with the pre-Trip Rapture teaching, it is not directly taught in the Book.

      Boiled down the PTR doctrine says Yeshua is coming 2 more times that equal only one 2nd advent. That the present Church will be taken out before the great trib, but a part of the Church that comes into being later, ‘tribulation saints’, will be left behind.

      PTR teaching doesn’t call the post trib saints the Church, but they would have to be Church. They must get saved/redeemed the same as us, so they would be the Church in the trib. How does one become qualified to be in the Church & pre-Trib raptured? By being born again, saved, redeemed. The post trib saints can be saved no other way. ALL who are God’s born again children are saved the same way, by the work of Messiah at the cross.

      If we all are saved the same way, by Jesus’ blood & our being born again, & this is what qualifies one for the PTR, why would the ‘trib’ saints not also be qualified for a ‘rapture’ of their own? Father is no respecter of persons….

      Note: ALL the PTR teaching is based on esiegesis, none of it on exegsis. The teaching is based on a preconceived idea. The Bible has been twisted as the scriptures are interpreted using eisegesis. Esiegesis is the over laying of meaning on to a verse rather than letting the verse mean what it says straight up, which is exegesis.

      http://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

      Since there is no direct statement that “Jesus is coming 2 more times & these 2 comings equal 1 advent and there will be ‘tribulation saints’ left behind” in the Book, twisted scripture proof texting is all there is to ‘prove’ the 2 stage 2nd coming of Messiah. The WHOLE PTR teaching is based on inference & assumptive eisegesis.

      Let me ask, where does the Bible directly say, no inference but straight up & directly, that Jesus takes us to heaven when He comes, returns or appears?

      Where is the term ‘tribulation saints’ found in the Bible or original language? I looked in Strongs. The word saints in the original language does not mean any thing different in any of it’s uses in the writings before Revelation than it means in Revelation. There is no original language modifier that can be used to say ‘saints’ mentioned in the Book of the Revelation are different [or 'trib saints'] than any saint any where else in the NT. The same word for saint in the original is the same word in all the NT.

      Why is the pre-Trib rapture not mentioned in any commentary before about 1835? Schoefield came out with his reference bible AFTER that time. Adam Clark’s commentaries have no mention of a PTR.

      Why was the PTR never a Church teaching or central doctrine till after about 1835? The concept may have been mentioned, but it has never been a mainstream Christian doctrine till about then. People SAY it’s there in the NT, but can produce no direct statements in the Book to prove it without resorting to the use of esiegesis.

      Also, how does one determine what verses refer to the 1st part of the 2 stage 2nd advent, the pre-Trib Rapture, & which refer to the 2nd half of the 2 stage 2nd advent, the glorious appearing?

      In the parable of the wheat & darnel [Amplified Version. 'Tares' in KJ.] Jesus said let them grow together UNTIL the harvest. He goes on to explain his terms & in doing so quashes the idea that He is coming 2 more times.

      What is the NT definition of ‘escape’?

      1 Cor. 10:13

      For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.

      There will be a tremendous temptation to take the mark, but we can be victorious.

      Revelation 15:2
      Then I saw what seemed to be a glassy sea blended with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his statue and from the number corresponding to his name were standing beside the glassy sea, with harps of God in their hands.

      It is not the Father won’t take care of us or protect us, it’s how. Which is easier? The path of least resistance PTR teaching or for Father to take care of us in the midst of trails, temptations & tribulation?

      Paul told Timothy that Father would deliver him [Paul] safe to Poppa’s heavenly kingdom. How did Paul get there?

      Why are we told many times in Revelation & elsewhere that we must endure to the end? Is the PTR ‘THE end’?

      That the dead will be raised up ‘at the LAST day’, according to Jesus?

      How many LAST trumpets are there?

      What do these verses from Hebrews mean? How do they fit with Jesus’ explanation of the time frame for the wheat & darnel [tares].

      Hebrews 12:
      26Then [at Mount Sinai] His voice shook the earth, but now He has given a promise: Yet once more I will shake and make tremble not only the earth but also the [starry] heavens.
      27Now this expression, Yet once more, indicates the final removal and transformation of all [that can be] shaken–that is, of that which has been created–in order that what cannot be shaken may remain and continue.

      28Let us therefore, receiving a kingdom that is firm and stable and cannot be shaken, offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship, with modesty and pious care and godly fear and awe;

      29For our God [is indeed] a consuming fire.

      Just a thought or 2 that I think are important to consider.

      SamFox

    • #28 written by JC
      about 1 year ago

      The Pre-Tibulation Rapture is the only possibility and it’s scriptural because of who Jesus Christ is, our groom, and who we are, His bride. He would not let His bride suffer through the tribulation, 7 years. His love is so amazing! If you love someone that much, would you let them go through anything bad? No! Plus, the Jewish wedding lasts 7 days, and that’s the time we will be gone. He has promised us He will take us “out of” the hour of trial, 7 years of tribulation, that will come on the whole Earth, etc, etc, etc. That’s right, you take the whole Bible into account. Amen! Maranatha!!!

      • #29 written by SamFox
        about 12 months ago

        JC, where are your Bible verses to back up your emotionalism?

        Father loved His Son. What did Poppa let Jesus go through? Those in Hebrews 11? You should read Fox’s Book Of Martyrs.

        Father lets us go THROUGH lots of stuff. He proves us & cleans us up with fiery trials don’t forget.

        • #30 written by Ron Murphy
          about 7 months ago

          The fact is Jesus set the tone for the rapture and only spoke of one. The others only followed suit. They all referred to His.

  • #31 written by lula smith
    about 3 years ago

    Maranatha,come Lord Jesus.

  • #32 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    Yes, Marantha, Come Lord Jesus.

    BUT He will NOT come until AFTER the END of the Tribulation!

  • #33 written by Charmaine Davis
    about 3 years ago

    I agree with Mr. Dirk. I used to believe in a “rapture.” It sounds easy and fun — to us Americans! Once I became aware of the serious tortures, torments, and killings of fellow believers in other countries even to this DAY, my heart was struck. THEY ARE HAVING THEIR TIME OF TESTING ALREADY! Many have lost houses, land, businesses, children and their very lives for Jesus. Many of them were turned in by their own mothers, sisters, and other family members for just being a Christ follower! Where is their rapture? Where is their rescue?

    God will save us (His people) from His wrath, but we will not escape the wrath of man. This will be a time of purifying and unifying and sanctifying of the church! Please follow the advice of Dirk! Put aside your cherished beliefs and let God speak. Examine the Scriptures and examine yourself. The rapture theory is a dangerous false doctrine. The church did not believe in this until some woman in the 18th century had a “vision” concerning the rapture of the church!

    This false doctrine has created lazy, carnal, selfish Christians! We are only concerned with our own safety and comfort. Our fervancy for witnessing to our relatives, neighbors and friends has dwindled over the last two hundred years. Why? I lay it all at the feet of the “rapture theory.” Our nation has become godless because we have favored the words of men over the words of God! We must repent, return to our first Love and follow Him!

    It is very important that we get this right! We must work for the Lord while it is day and while we have a little time left. The very ones we have neglected to show the truth of Jesus to, will be the very ones cutting our throats when the Great Tribulation hits the entire planet. We must prepare ourselves to endure until the end! We must submit to God, repent, pray constantly, memorize Scripture, obey the Scriptures, TEACH OUR CHILDREN God’s Word, and make disciples!
    We must start today! The time is at hand.

    Its time for a Christian revolution! The arms we take up will be folded in prayer, the government we humbly petition will be God Himself and our chant will be “Salvation belongs to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” Fight on brothers and sisters! We don’t need twitter and Facebook when we have the Holy Spirit groaning within us — then we can have Hope and Change that is everlasting! Amen!

    • #34 written by SamFox
      about 12 months ago

      You are so correct Charmaine! Corrie TenBoom didn’t believe in the PTR for the reasons you state. I also read a book by a missionary saying the same things you said. He ministered in Orient. I still have the book I think.

      Out side the USA it is VERY difficult to spread the false PTR teaching among followers of The Way.

      I did a quick look on the net about Corrie. She also calls the PTR a false teaching & said that those that teach it are the false teachers Yeshua warned us about.

      The search term I used :
      corrie ten boom did not believe in the pre tribulation rapture.

      Miss Ten Boom is one of the great heroes of the modern Christian era, IMO.

      SamFox

  • #35 written by Andrew M
    about 3 years ago

    It’s interesting that the author brings up Dan 12:9 “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.”

    There is another place in the bible that we see similar phrasing. Rev 22:10 “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.” Why would God tell him not to seal them up, if there would be at least 2000 years before it was to take place, just the same as Daniel?

    Why was Daniel to seal away the words of his prophecy? Because they were for a future time, not his time. Why was John told NOT to seal up the words of prophecy revealed to him? Because they WERE for his time and were happening soon. “Behold, I am coming soon…” (Rev 22:12)

  • #36 written by Adrian
    about 3 years ago

    I have several friends that don’t believe in a pre-trib or mid-trib Rapture. But they also don’t believe in certain elements in Revelation such as The Beast, The False Prophet, The locusts, The Mark of The Beast etc. They say all of these things are “spiritual/figurative” & not literal. I believe they identify themselves as Amillennial?

    I don’t understand why they interpret everything in Revelation is “spiritualized” or figurative, yet they give a LITERAL interpretation to everything else in the history of The Bible (i.e., Noah’s Ark, Jonah & The Great Fish, etc.)

    Thoughts???

    • #37 written by April
      about 3 years ago

      I call it Christian Atheism. It just another form of rejecting the truth. They have the attitude of Thomas when he disbelieved that Jesus had appeared to the other disciples. This type of people bring God down to our level and treat him as if he is human, bounded by human limitations and earth’s natural laws. That’s why anything dealing with the Deity, spiritual or supernatural are ignored by them. In a way, they are modern day Sadduces.

  • #38 written by Daniel Knezacek
    about 3 years ago

    Hello,

    I have answered all of your objections in my new book “The Spirit of Prophecy”, and more. I won’t repeat it all here, but I will say a couple of things: In the bible the word “heaven” has three meanings. It can mean the atmosphere, the space between the stars, and it can mean God’s home.

    The word heaven in Matt 24:31 does not refer to God’s home, nor to the stars, but to the atmosphere. These elect are picked up by angels and held aloft as Jesus brings destruction on all those with the mark of the Beast. This is also the time when the mountains will fall and those hiding in caves will be crushed. These are people in their natural bodies who will repopulate the planet at the end of the Tribulation period.

    These people are not the Church, because the true Church has the Holy Spirit indwelling them. When Jesus calls He will empower us to come to him in the clouds. We won’t need angels to get us there. There are lots of people who call themselves Christians who don’t have the Holy Spirit, and won’t be going when He calls.

    Something else: There will be a pseudo-tribulation period. This is the time Jesus referred to as “wars and rumors of wars”. This period will take several years and will include the wars of Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 & 39. Rome will be destroyed during this period and the world will say this is fulfillment of Revelation 17 and 18. They will then be looking for a messiah to bring peace to the world, and that is the time the real Antichrist will sneak up from behind them! The real Antichrist is not from Europe but from somewhere much closer to Israel. The European Antichrist is a decoy, a patsy, meant to throw you off the scent.

    Remember Jesus said “when they are saying peace and safety, sudden destruction will come upon them and they shall not escape”? The reason they think it is time for peace and safety is because they think Armageddon is over, but really it hasn’t even begun!

    I have fleshed out these theories in my book “The Spirit of Prophecy”. If you want all the scriptural references you can buy that book. I have backed up every statement with several references, and challenge anyone opposed to prove me wrong by the scriptures, read in context…I dare you!

    • #39 written by jabez
      about 1 year ago

      Daniel, Ezekiel 35 speaks of the near future when the whole earth rejoices, as you said, “The reason they think it is time for peace and safety is because they think Armageddon is over, but really it hasn’t even begun!” Israel will confirm the 7 year covenant, the Temple will be built, the redemption of Christ’s bride, the deceiver comes with lying signs and wonders to end WW 3, and the pretrib debate will be over.

  • #40 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    Daniel,

    I already have proven you wrong. I posted the scriptures that PROVE a pre trib rapture is IMPOSSIBLE and so is a mid trib rapture.

    I have asked everyone to show me in the Bible another gathering of God’s people to Himself that happens at some other time than when Jesus said it would happen in Matt 24:29-31.

    WHERE is that gathering in the Bible? You cannot provide it.

    What about II Thes 2:1-4 that says specifically that the Antichrist MUST be revealed and declare himself to be God in the temple of God BEFORE the church is gathered to the Lord?

    Where does the Bible contradict itself by saying we will be gathered to Jesus BEEFORE the Trib?

    Where is a second part to the First resurrection, For the Bible says there are ONLY 2. AND Paul clearly states that the dead in Christ will be gathered BEFORE those who are still alive on the earth. YET the 1st Resurrection occurs after the END of the Trib according to Jesus in Matt and John in Rev 20.

    You may be able to provide verses to twist the scriptures to make it appear there is this rapture before the trib, BUT, in order for this to actually happen the above verses MUST be in the Bible,

    AND THEY ARE NOT!

    Therefore, your book has no more authority than Grant Jeffrey’s who lied when he said the early church believed in a pre trib rapture. He had to have purposely misquote and leave out passages in the early christian books he used to “prove” his theory

    BUT IT WAS A LIE just as your book is a lie!

    I DARE YOU to post RIGHT HERE the passages that MUST be in the Bible for there to be anything besides a POST TRIB GATHERING of the Saints to Jesus.

    There are NONE! There is no second gathering of God’s people, there is no verse that says Paul was in error in II Thes 2:1-4, there is no thrid resurrection or the first resurrection divided into 2 or more parts.

    NONE of this is in the Bible. BUT IT MUST BE for there to be a pre trib or mid trib rapture.

    SO, where are THOSE verses, Daniel?

    If you cannot show everyone right here, then your book is WORTHLESS; and you are promoting a lie to make money off of.

  • #41 written by Exposing Lies
    about 3 years ago

    Mr Dirk,
    You know nothing about the truth!! You are right about one thing you stated . . . Jesus will not come back to earth until the final battle. But He will come one time before that, but it says He’ll come in the clouds and the “Saints” that are a sleep in the ground and all that are still living will meet Him in the air. I could provide plenty of Scripture to back that, but I wouldn’t waste my time. You will be one that will eventually be in front of Jesus . . . and you will say didn’t I cast out demons . . . didn’t we do this and that, and Jesus will say, “get away from me you evil doers, I never knew you. In James it states that if you cause one little one to fall, you’d be better off with a millstone around your neck and cast into the sea. The Bible, also said in that day 2 workers will be in the field, one will suddenly be gone and the other one left behind. It says we will not know the day or the hour in which this will happen . . . but always be on watch. He said you foolish people. You can tell the seasons as the buds on the trees start budding. You say tomorrow will be a nice day as the sun shines red as it sets, but woah to those that aren’t prepared. It say 2 will be sleeping in bed and all of a sudden, one will be gone and one will be left. Would any of this matter or why would there be such distinctions? Now, it says when He returns, all His saints will come back with Him riding white horses. Wait why would His word tell us that “ALL” His saints would return with Him? And if you know the Word so much, you can tell us differently Mr. Dirk. And also the Word says when He comes down to earth that final time and His feet touch the mountains around Jerusalem they will be flattened to the ground. Now wait, one time He’ll come back in the clouds whereas His feet never touch the earth and the last time His feet will touch the earth . . . THOSE ARE 2 DIFFERENT TIMES!! And if you know so much about the Word, then you would have to agree with this statement . . . the Bible says that when the antichrist come into his power, he will make an agreement with Israel for 7 years. NOT 7 YEARS AND A DAY!! NOT 6 YEARS AND 364 DAYS, BUT 7 YEARS EXACTLY!! So when that agreement tells everyone that we know when Jesus will return exactly to the day. So what we don’t know is that, not even Jesus Himself knows the day or the hour will be except our Father God knows. THOSE ARE JESUS’ WORDS!! He also said that the true saints were lucky because He will have the time shortened so His saints will not have to deal with all the trouble and terror. NOW YOU GO LOOK UP ALL THOSE PASSAGES, SINCE YOU ARE CAUSING MANY LITTLE ONES TO FALL!!(little ones are young Christians not little kids) I prayed for you, because you’re gonna need it!! I will not be posting here again . . . because I know the truth. Hopefully you’ll find the truth or you will continue to come as an Angel of light. And finally, if you really knew the truth . . . then you would know in the original scrolls written in the original language used back then, you would know that it does discuss the Rapture. The Greek word being Rapto or to be brought up to. So hopefully you will not cause many others to fall, so you too can be brought up into the clouds to be with Jesus, before the Rapture takes place. Or prove to me in the Word, why all these words are in the Bible.

    • #42 written by amazinggrace2true
      about 3 years ago

      Totally agree with you, I have just written evidence to prove there is a pre rapture before GODs Wrath. Its great to see someone else that believes this x Many Blessings x

      • #43 written by James R. Manning
        about 2 years ago

        You are mistaken and confused my friend about the Warth of God. All the Elect Saints of the Great Tribulation period who are hounded, persecuted, ridiculed and killed for the Word of God and their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ are not suffering as a part of the Warth of God. They will be suffering from the Warth of Satan, the Warth of the Beast-666. A lot of people teach that this Great Tribulation period is the Warth of God come upon a wicked and unbelieving world, but they are totally wrong. It is the Warth of Satan because he is cast upon the earth and his time is short. (Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12) For it is Satan that will give power unto the Beaast-666 to make war against the Saints and to overcome them, that many will be killed. But, they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (this Lamb is our Lord Jesus), and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (You see what the scriptures say here, these saints have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb of God; these are not all Jewish believers nor Jews per say, because the Jews don’t as yet believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Although at the time of the end, one third of the Jews will call on and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The other two thirds of the Jews of the nation of Israel will be killed.)

    • #44 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      @EXPOSING LIES…you said..”(little ones are young Christians not little kids)”….you also said ” In James it states that if you cause one little one to fall, you’d be better off with a millstone around your neck and cast into the sea.”
      Scripture does not verify your interpertation of this and you are not even quoting the right scripture. For scripture says…
      Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
      Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
      Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
      Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
      Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

      and again,
      Mar 9:36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
      Mar 9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.
      Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us.
      Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
      Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
      Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
      Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

      In both references a CHILD is refered to and NOT A YOUNG CHRISTIAN as you quoted.
      You are not exposing lies but promoting false doctrine.
      For scripture says…
      2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      To brothers and sisters seeking the truth…
      Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
      Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
      BE BLESSED

    • #45 written by Ken
      about 2 years ago

      Well said Daniel, I agree with you. Jesus is the King and Bridegroom getting ready to steal his bride away for the marriage feast of the Lamb.
      He said in my house there are many mansions or rooms whatever, “If it were not so I would have told you” I choose to belive Jesus Christ.

      • #46 written by SamFox
        about 10 months ago

        Ken, “house” in your verse means household, which is the family members & any one living in the physical house. ‘Mansions’ means dwelling places, as in slots/places/spaces/open seats that can occupied in a family.

        I also choose to believe Jesus. So what exactly was He saying?

        Your set of scriptures in John was fulfilled in Acts chpt. 2 when Jesus came, returned as it were after His ascension, in & to the believers in the upper room with the baptism of the Holy Spirit & placed those in the upper room into His body. He was fulfilling what Daniel said abut a Stone cut out without human hands that grew to take over the whole earth. See Dan. 2:34-35 & 45.

        Peter’s sermon, just after, was also used to add even more to the body.

        Jesus was not speaking of His 2nd advent in John 14.
        John 14:3
        And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself,

        that where I am

        you may be also.

        John 17:24
        Father, I desire that they also whom You have entrusted to Me [as Your gift to Me]

        may be with Me where I am,

        so that they may see My glory, which You have given Me [Your love gift to Me]; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

        Where was Jesus when He said the words quoted in the verses? He was at that time the sole occupier of the body of Christ. What took place in Acts 2 was the 1st of many expansions ['growth spurts'] of that Stone as Jesus seeks continually to add to His body, bride & church [called out ones].

        There is no way that any one can say Jesus did not come & take those in the upper room to Himself. That they then did not became part of His body, subject to Him as the Head.

        The believers were born again & baptized into Jesus by the Holy Spirit on the Day Of Pentecost. It can be said that “HE comes again” to each of us who believe because we lost fellowship with Father in the garden of Eden where all mankind was cut off from fellowship with Father by Eve & Adam’s falling into sin. In a sense we were with Father then, before the fall, like what Paul said about Levi, who was in Abraham’s loins.
        Heb. 7
        9 A person might even say that Levi [the father of the priestly tribe] himself, who received tithes (the tenth), paid tithes through Abraham,
        10 For he was still in the loins of his forefather [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham].

        In that sense we all were in Adam’s loins.

        If you don’t understand what I am sharing, don’t throw it out. Put it on a shelf, pray & let Father show you in His time if I am sharing truth or not.

        SamFox

    • #47 written by Faith
      about 2 years ago

      Ooo…well said.

      Yet, we all do agree; This is the Beginning of the End!

    • #48 written by Michael
      about 9 months ago

      I totally agree.We must rightly divide the word of truth and be like the Bereans.I used to believe the post trib rapture but after searching the word I have renounced that as false doctrine.Post tribbers use Matt24:31 like a record playing that is stuck in the groove to prove the rapture.Jesus is not refering to the rapture in this verse but to the gathering of the Jews to Jerusalem after He returns in Glory.This verse in Matt 24:31 ties in with Isa 11:11,12.Isa 27:12,13.Also in Rev 1:19 speakes of the things which were(that is before the church age began ) the things which are(the church age we are in now)and the things which will be hereafter.The things which are hereafter begin in the 70th week from after the rapture shown in Rev4:1.This is all very clear to me.
      Even so come Lord Jesus.
      Michael

      • #49 written by Vasily Sculley
        about 9 months ago

        Actually, Post-Tribbers hold to the original interpretation of the whole Bible. Did you know Pre-tribbers didn’t exist until a Pentecostal girl had a vision of a pre-trib rapture? For 1800 years, nobody thought it was pre-trib. I’ll stick with what those who knew the Apostles believed. Not some 20 something wet-behind-the-ears girl who had a hallucination.

    • #50 written by SamFox
      about 7 months ago

      Exposing, just because different verses have different details doesn’t mean there are 2 more comings of Christ. All that supposition is added by men.

      ALL the details in every verse about the 2nd advent will be fulfilled at Yeshua’s one & only 2nd advent. How? I don’t know. I do know that Father is not limited because we don’t know.

      If the 2nd advent comes in 2 stages separated by some 7 years, yet equals only one 2nd advent, why is that not made clear with al least a FEW DIRECT statements?

      Why cannot the 2 stage 2nd coming believers reconcile Q’s by Dirk, others & me?

      Like, how does the ‘last trumpet’ fit?

      I will raise them all up at the last day?

      Let them grow together until the harvest, which is at the end of the age?

      Gather the tares first?

      He that endures to the end will be saved?

      Is the PTR the end? No. How does that fit in the teaching?

      Also if the church is PTR’d so Father can deal with the Jews, why does Jesus pray we all be made one in John 17–
      20 Neither for these alone do I pray [it is not for their sake only that I make this request], but also for *all* those who will ever come to believe* in (trust in, cling to, rely on) Me through their word and teaching,
      21 *That they *all* may be one,* [just] as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be *one in Us,* so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me.

      Paul echoes this & expands a bit, when He says of Yeshua:
      Ephesians 2:15
      By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that *He from the two* might create in Himself *one new man* [*one* new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.

      How could there possibly be a dichotomy between the body of Christ & natural Israel? The only real dichotomy is between saved & un-saved.

      Can you fit the above into the PTR teaching? You MUST reconcile those verses & what they say with the PTR teaching for the teaching to be true.

      Like Dirk says, the WHOLE Bible is true.

      I am not mocking you or being combative. I am trying to getcha to really pray this out. God help us all.

      Thanks.

      With the love & concern of the Lord,

      SamFox

      • #51 written by Ron Murphy
        about 7 months ago

        Quiet simple if you think about it. We should know we are not appointed to wrath. Jesus comes in the clouds to gather, at the signs: sun, moon and stars, Luke 21:25

        Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
        Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
        Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
        Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

        If we run reference to Rev. 6:12 with these same evens we can see the wrath is related to mans hearts failing them in Luke 21:26. We can plainly see in both cases we are gone before the wrath of God because in both cases the wrath is just getting ready to start. The last seal in the book is the wrath of God. The 7th trump it’s all over with, the Lord reigns and begins the millennium. That is when He’s coming back to earth after all the trump are sounded or exactly at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Whether Paul was referring to that or not I don’t know? I believe that he wasn’t. Last trump is referred to last trump of Gentile end or fulfillment of the Gentile age.

  • #52 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    Exposing lies,

    WHERE is the VERSE that speaks of this other gathering of the saints BEFORE the gathering after the end of the TRIB?

    If can’t show all of us, then it does NOT HAPPEN!

    You have not shown us in the BIble where there is another gathering of God’s people to Jesus besides the one in Matt 24:29-31

    SO, for all of your twisting of the Bible to suit your prupose, you are the one who is lying. because you have not 1 verse that speaks of the gathering you are talking about, NOR does the verse you do mention say anything about WHEN it will occur!

    You are blowing SMOKE!

    And working for satan.

  • #53 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    Let me add this.

    You have NOT answered the questions I have asked. YOu have tried to confuse the issue with other lies.

    ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I HAVE ASKED WITH THE VERSE THAT MUST BE IN THE BIBLE FOR THERE TO BE A RAPTURE THAT OCCURS BEFORE THE END OF THE TRIB!

    You have not done this. ALL you have done is attempt to discredit what I have said so that you do not have to FACE those questions.

    BUT THE FACT REMAINS, you cannot answer those questions because the Bible does NOT teach anything except a post trib gathering of the saints to Jesus.

  • #54 written by rachel eason
    about 3 years ago

    dirk i have read your post and i must say it seems you have an anger issue. it seems that you want to believe in the rapture but cant. i am concerned for you because if you are a christian born again and with the holy spirit, then honey when you pick up your bible at night to read the word of god himself, pray first that the lord give you full understanding. the followers of christ whom wrote the scriptures were full of the holy spirit, therefor you need to have the holy spirit for understanding. your in my prayers. p.s not everything can be understood for we are human. i believe in the rapture of the church no doubt. but even if i am wrong, im not hurting anyone else for believing it, its just that when i read that is what i feel in my heart. and since jesus lives there now, that why i know it will happen. the 144 thousand that it speaks of in rev i believe are the people who were saved during trib and the lukewarm that were not watching. you should read that and put the puzzle together. you have to cross reference in the bible. to read it front to back will only cofuse u more but there are plenty of scrips as you were told above that proves it. again i will keep you in prayer and god bless you brother.

    • #55 written by S. Knight
      about 3 years ago

      I don’t think Mr. Dirk has anger issues.
      I see him as a very passionate person for his beliefs (wich i agree with). He is trying to open God’s children eyes to the truth…
      Read this again:

      Mathew24:
      “3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
      4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

      9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

      10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

      Mathew24:9:“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. “…. not raptured away and missed all that.

  • #56 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    Rachel,

    Instead of trying to psychoanalyze me,

    Just answer the questions. If you cannot, then a pre trib rapture is impossible!

    • #57 written by Faith
      about 2 years ago

      Dirk dear.
      You ARE angry.
      Teach in love.

  • #58 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    By the Way, rachel,

    I have no anger problem. Why do you find it necessary to avoid answering a simple question by trying to turn this on me?

    ALL I have done is ask a few questions that nobody here seems to want to answer, or even deal with. They want to talk about everything else including my character, but no one, including you, Rachel, is willing to answer those 4 questions. Just so we all know what they are, I shal ask them once more.

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation. Where is it?

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all! Where is it?

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib. Whereis it in the bible?

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib. Where is PROOF, please post the verses.

    NOW, once more, I ask ALL OF YOU, where is your proof? If you cannot provide it, then you are promoting a lie!

    • #59 written by Michael
      about 9 months ago

      Dirk,Matt 24:31 is not the rapture but the gathering of the Jews to Jerusalem after the great tribulation.Mathew is not addressing the church in Matt24 but the Jews.The church was not formed yet.Rread Isa 11:11,12 and Isa 26:12,13.These verses tie in with Matt 24:31.

      • #60 written by SamFox
        about 7 months ago

        Michael, you are sort of correct, but not close enough.

        The Church was formed in Mary’s womb by the Holy Spirit. Yeshua IS the church. ALL His born again children are members of Him & He is the Head.

        The church didn’t come into being on the day of Pentecost. The church was expanded, added to, in the upper room on that day.

        Hope that helps clarify.

        SamFox

        • #61 written by SamFox
          about 7 months ago

          Michael, All the New Covenant is to Jew & gentile. Messiah came for the whole world, not only the Jews. John 3:16

          Yeshua’s body is made up of Jew & gentile. There is no dichotomy between Israel & the Body of Christ.

          We ALL are one new man in Christ. That also shoots down the ‘women can’t be ministers.’ thing. :-) As does

          Acts 2:17
          And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and your *daughters* shall prophesy…:-)

          Romans 8:14
          For *all* who are led by the Spirit of God are *sons* of God.

          Galatians 3:7
          Know and understand that it is [really] the *people* [who live] by faith who are [the true] *sons* of Abraham.

          Galatians 3:26
          For in Christ Jesus you are *all* sons of God through faith.

          1 Thessalonians 5:5
          For you are *all sons* of light and sons of the day;…

          So! WHY cannot a women be in ministry? :-) Because men are chauvinists? :-) Maybe… :-)

          Or is it because
          Galatians 3 says
          [Amplified Bible (AMP) ]
          27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
          28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male [a]and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
          29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham’s Seed], then you are Abraham’s offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.

          In the marriage relationship the man is the head. But a Christian man who doesn’t consult with His Spirit filled Christian wife…let’s just say that man would not be a very wise Christian. :-)

          Acts 21:9
          And he had four maiden daughters who had the gift of prophecy. :-)

          Got off track a bit, but this may be helpful to some one browsing thorough here.

          In Yeshua’s love,

          SamFox

  • #62 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    my goodness the arogance of the rapture theory is horrifing ….. i have searched and searched scripture for many years to figuer out how i can be part of this so called rapture that every preacher ive ever met believes in and ive come up empty … the fact is there is no rapture God will take up the already dead martyrd in his name and the 144,000 isreal tribal members … everyone else will have to fight on earth against the words of the devil and his son …. so instead of trying to spin your delusion of im safe from the wrath of God, how about trying to help fellow christians keep the faith during the worst times of being a christian that we are facing, tribulation is gonna suck for christians but we need to stay prepared and strong that it is all part of Gods plan, oh and to all those not paying attention our fellow christians are falling for the muslim faith … we need to make it our duty to let them know the koran is the anti-christs and his father satans bible… remember satans goal is to be better then God if you read the koran its the bible with words changed and parables changed to fit with satans agenda… destroy God and his followers… us as christians need to stop this from happening to our brothers and sisters! may God bless us all, Amen

    • #63 written by April
      about 3 years ago

      Read Revelations after asking God for wisdom and understanding in faith. The rapture will occur after Jesus’s return. Basically, it is post-tribulation. The elect on the earth at that time will be taken to heaven. The dead will remain dead because it will not be time for them to rise as yet. Everyone else will remain on earth and be given the choice to obey God or obey the antichrist, beast and false prophet. Those that do believe will not be raptured but will be taken on a sheet of fiery glass into heaven before the earth is destroyed. The 144,000 will be the only elect on earth for some time. There are also the two witnesses and those saints that will rule with Christ on earth. They all have their divine purpose of being on earth.

      • #64 written by SamFox
        about 7 months ago

        April, would you please post a scripture that says when Messiah returns/comes again/is revealed at His 2nd advent that He takes us to heaven?

        I have looked & looked. The closest I have come up with is that we shall ever be with the Lord. But that verse does not say where…

        I am looking for a verse that is absolutely clear, that it says right up front, a statement of it’s own, saying clearly we go to heaven at His 2nd advent. One that needs no ‘interpreting to mean’ or other ‘help’.

        Thanks.

        SamFox

  • #65 written by amazinggrace2true
    about 3 years ago

    I believed until recently that All would go through the Great Tribulation. However, after reading the Bible I cannot see this happening. One, because GOD waited until Lot and his Family were safely out of the way before he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Two, because GOD also waited for Noah and his family to be safely in the Ark before he released the Flood on the World. No where on the Bible does GOD release his wrath on his people. Thirdly, in Luke chapter 21 vs 25-28 parallells with Revelation chapter 6 vs 12-13. Then in Revelation Chapter 7 vs 9 highlights the “Rapture”. There is also a promise to those who keep the word of Patience: Revelation chapter 3 vs 10-11. The Bible also refers to the days of Noah in Matthew 24 vs 38-39… everything was normal to those on earth then, “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” Again in vs 40-41, It gives an image of normality not of wrath.. does it not? i cant see anyone marrying, eating or drinking as normal when the seals are broken and the other judgements are poured out on this earth. Their will be famines, no food, animals dying etc in those days. The bible also quotes that “One will be taken and the other one left” “In a twinkling of an eye” Another reason why I cant see True believers of Christ go through the Great Tribulation is because we would know the time frame of the Anti-christ.. we as readers of GOD’s Word will know the beginning of the 7 year peace treaty with Israel, then the breaking of it after three and a half years, then the events before and after this time. Jesus tells us we will not know when he is coming for us; Matthew 24 vs 42-45. i feel we are going through “The signs” that Jesus mentioned and he also said “Do not concern yourselves with these things as they must come to pass”. “Look up” Jesus said, watch for the signs in heaven. Read the Parable of the Ten Virgins and understand that 5 were taken because they were ready for the Bridegoom, the others were not! and they will go through GODs Wrath along with the non believers.. he warns them not to take the Mark of the Beast.

    • #66 written by Sheila
      about 3 years ago

      I think there was an incident that people went through that the Lord did not take them out and they were safe!
      At Sodom & Gamorah -one turned to look back and was turned to salt.

      There were almost all who mocked Noah and they all perished. Yes, those who listened to the Lord and the One who the Lord called to save his family were saved because of ONE! That was to full fill God’s plan.

      When Moses came to lead “His People out” – people died where blood had not been sprinkled. You were not saved just because you were a Jew or a Christian – you had to DO what the LORD required.

      Are we as Christians doing that? I think better to be prepared for the worst of times and prepare those whom you love and teach them before it is too late and they fall into temptation to take an easy way out. This cannot HURT anyone. We do ourselves a great dis-service when we don’t prepare for these things or believe what tickles our ears. Why debate these matters? It only points out to those who are potentially seeking, to call Christians hypocrits and not be drawn to the life giving love of Christ. Be sober or (prepared or alert) for your advesary, walks around like a ROARING Lion seeking whom he may devour. Just think on this!! In nature, does the lion roar and scare off his prey or does he stalk them in quiet? I believe this verse could mean that the ROAR is heard because we know the preditor but we do not see his evil… he appears to be something different…. maybe we even trust him…we listen to his words because he may be trying to scare us….or bully us …. or it may even be coming from our leaders in govenment or the churches. The Bible does warn us for a reason. We are also suppose to be ready with our lamps full of oil. As I write this, I pray the that the Lord will reveal to those who diligently seek HIM as HE holds the Key… My spirit really like Dirk’s words and I agree that it did not come off to me as he was angry. Maybe as one crying in the wilderness..

    • #67 written by April
      about 3 years ago

      the rapture is post tribulation. You forget that we suffer through harsh circumstances right now. Even Jesus prayed to God to not take us out of the world but to strengthen us. The Christians of Revelation times will go through the tribulation but will not be inflicted with God’s punishments. The tribulation only refers to the evil that the antichrist will do and has nothing to do with God’s punishments.

    • #68 written by jc
      about 2 years ago

      Yeppers!

    • #69 written by James R. Manning
      about 2 years ago

      You are mistaken and confused my friend about the Warth of God. All the Elect Saints of the Great Tribulation period who are hounded, persecuted, ridiculed and killed for the Word of God and their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ are not suffering as a part of the Warth of God. They will be suffering from the Warth of Satan, the Warth of the Beast-666. A lot of people teach that this Great Tribulation period is the Warth of God come upon a wicked and unbelieving world, but they are totally wrong. It is the Warth of Satan because he is cast upon the earth and his time is short. (Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12) For it is Satan that will give power unto the Beaast-666 to make war against the Saints and to overcome them, that many will be killed. But, they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (this Lamb is our Lord Jesus), and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (You see what the scriptures say here, these saints have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb of God; these are not all Jewish believers nor Jews per say, because the Jews don’t as yet believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Although at the time of the end, one third of the Jews will call on and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The other two thirds of the Jews of the nation of Israel will be killed.)

  • #70 written by amazinggrace2true
    about 3 years ago

    There is another reason why I see the Rapture happen before the seals are broken. In Revelation 4 vs 1 : After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. As like those “Saints” that are raptured they will know what is about to happen when the first seal is broken.

  • #71 written by amazinggrace2true
    about 3 years ago

    Ag II Thessalonians 2:3, 4. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”
    The word ‘falling away’ is ‘departure’. It does not say ‘falling away (departure) from the faith’ as in Timothy, so we must see what departure he is talking about from the context. Then v1 you see it is the departure of the church from the earth in the rapture, then the antichrist will be revealed.
    The Greek word “apostasia” in 2 Thess. 2:3 also has the Greek article “the” in front of it, in the Greek text, which makes it, not a general “going away”, or “departure”, but “The Departure”, a special EVENT, that the reader is expected to already know about.

    In other words, the use of the article “the” with “apostasia” in 2 Thess. 2:3 indicates that Paul expects the Thessalonian Christians to already understand that this is the title of an event, and he expects them to already know what it means.

    Had the Apostle Paul already taught the Thessalonians about an “EVENT” that could be described as a “departure”, or “going away”? Absolutely, yes.

    Paul had already taught the Thessalonian Church about the EVENT, of the Catching Away and “Departure” of the Church in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

    In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember? When I was with you I taught you about these things?

    I don’t see where Paul taught them at all about “a falling away from the truth” in his first letter, but he taught them about the Rapture of the church in at least five passages in 1st Thessalonians:

    1. 1 Thess 1:10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
    2. 1 Thess 2:19 “For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?”

    3. 1 Thess 3:13 “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”

    4. 1 Thess 4:13 – 5:10:

    Verse 13 “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    We can clearly see that it is not the time when Jesus comes back to reign a thousand years x

    • #72 written by SamFox
      about 2 years ago

      amazinggrace, you misstate what the verse says. Not attacking, correcting in love as best I can.

      2 Thessalonians 2:

      Amplified Bible (AMP @ biblegteway.com)
      2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.

      3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

      4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.

      Church teaching has always taught that departure in this set of verses means a falling away from the faith.

      This I believe will be caused when we are faced with rejecting the mark or capitulating & accepting it.

      If a follower of Yeshua takes the mark they will forfeit their salvation & relationship with Jesus.

      9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, WHOEVER pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast's] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,

      10 He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God’s indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [Emphasis in caps added.]

      Jesus did say that no one can pluck us from His hand. Very true!!

      BUT! He did not say we can’t be persuaded to walk away on our own.

      That is why Yeshua told us that we must endure to the end.

      I believe in once saved always saved to the extent that if we daily use our will to choose to follow Jesus & the Bible we are eternally secure.

      However, if we can be persuaded to walk away & become an apostate we still have the free will to do so. Our free will & ability to choose is not default taken away at salvation.

      Hebrews 6: [Amplified, from biblegateway.com]

      4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

      5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,

      6 If they then ‘deviate’ [I add, 'depart from'] from the faith and [I add, this is what 'depart from' means, ] ‘turn away from their allegiance’–[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

      [I added ' ' 's around some words.]

      This is not about backsliding into sin, unless one backslides into apostasy. I back slid twice, last time about 20 years ago or more, very badly.

      BUT I never denied Jesus or asked Him to leave me nor did I want Him out of my life. I just wanted to have sex & other low life style sin stuff. When I got my fill of junk & finally yielded to the Holy spirit conviction I repented & plead for forgiveness, He took me back.

      I was very immature & had a higher “Christian rating” of my self than actually existed in my walk. But all things work together for good to them that love the Lord & are the called according to His purpose.

      If I had stayed faithful to the Lord & His word I would have been brought through my lust of the flesh without having to indulge it. Backsliding is VERY COSTLY! in ways you do not want to experience. Stay with Jesus. Cling to Him no matter what. That is what I have learned. The scars are not worth it.

      My mistake was going by my feelings….the devil brings thoughts & feelings to us @ temptation. We must learn to set them aside, deny our ‘self’, if they conflict with the Word. This is what we must do when/if faced with taking or rejecting the mark. At that time, satan will be strong, by Father’s allowance. It will be a final exam, so to speak. Reread the parable of the sower in the Amplified. You can find it at biblegateway.com & other good sites if you don’t own a copy. I would get a copy if I were you.

      I use mostly the Amplified, The New King James & the American Standard Version. Another good translation is The Scriptures.

      If you want to put faith in the pre-Trib Rapture teaching, beware. It is not Bible based. I think you can still be saved & believe in the PTR, but be ready to go further than that in your heart if needed. If I am wrong, you can’t lose. Just be ready to endure to the end, to the last day, the last trump. If we don’t go that far, fine by me! BUT if we do have to face the mark & you are not ready in Him to resist, even unto death as Yeshua Himself says…what then?

      We don’t need a ‘rapture’. I say we need a relationship, as strong as we can sow into, with Yeshua Messiah. If we walk with Him, learning & living His written Word & do not love our lives even unto death, then when He comes, returns or appears won’t matter. We will be individually prepared in Him to go as far as each of us are called by His foreknowledge to go until He calls us to Himself via death or in the air.

      I Thess. says we meet Him in the air. It does not say He takes us to heaven then. The “He takes us to heaven” idea that’s been attached TO the verse is not directly stated IN/BYthe verse. It is inferred to mean that, but that inference is not directly, openly, backed up any where else in srcipture.

      SamFox.

  • #73 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    amazinggrace2true, what bible are you reading my goodness people this is what im talking about you added that rapture line …. blasphemy this is total blasphemy … i can just imagine Jesus turning over all the tables in your church for selling such lies …. wow people challenge these things she or he just used revelations 4:1 and added to it … 4:1 SAYS then as i looked, i saw a door standing open in heaven and the same voice i had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. the voice said “come up here and i will show you what must happen after this” 2. And instantly i was in the spirit and i saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it. the one sitting on the throne was a brilliant as gemstones- like jasper and carnelian. and the glow of an emerald circled his throne like a rainbow. twenty-four thrones surrounded him, and twenty-four elders sat on them…… this is about the elders that endlessly lead worship and lay their crowns at jesus’s feet not the rapture so i say to you amazinggrace2true BLASPHEMY!!!

    • #74 written by amazinggrace2true
      about 3 years ago

      what rapture line did I add? I clearly stated that when the Bible was translated the translators put “Falling away” but in the original text in Greek it is “THE Falling away” have you a problem with the Truth? I ask you to go and research this like i have and then come back to me x

      • #75 written by SamFox
        about 7 months ago

        amazinggrace, still, THE falling away Paul warns of is from the faith. I found a confirmation in Clark’s Commentary regarding the 2 Thess verse.

        Re-read the parable of the sower. Some seed fell in rocks ect.

        When the mark comes, what kind of response will you have?

        PLEASE!! Be close enough to Jesus & know His word so that if you do not fly away before the mark you will have what it takes in Christ to refuse it!

        What can you lose by being ready? “Nothing!” comes to mind… :-)

        The deception of the PTR will IMO cause a lot of Christians to stumble & fall away, sorta like what He said in the parable of the sower.

        SamFox

    • #76 written by amazinggrace2true
      about 3 years ago

      1. 1 Thess 1:10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
      Is there going to be another Wrath to come?? The only Wrath I can clearly see is when Our LORD Jesus opens the seals which is the beginning of GODs Wrath.

      • #77 written by SamFox
        about 7 months ago

        amazing, Great verse to post. Not being ‘smart’ or such. It is a good verse.

        That verse shows us we are already delivered from the wrath of Father that is to come.

        Since we are already delivered from Poppa’s wrath, what have we to fear? That shows us that we don’t need a pre-trib rapture. We are safe now. That is…

        IF we endure to the end–don’t love our earthly life even if we die as a martyr, like Paul who was, in spite of his being killed was delivered safe to Father’s heavenly kingdom. Or like those in Heb. 11.

        The PTR teaching subtly has it’s adherents thinking the don’t have to worry about what lies on our door step & therefore don’t feel the need to make Christ, knowing His Word & building a strong relationship with Him as high a priority as it would [hopefully] other wise be if we knew or thought it possible we might be called upon to follow Jesus into death. That we would have to be prepared to go before kings & governors His sake.

        Take the 3 in the furnace for example. Lion’s den any one? Hebrews 11?

        The path of least resistance is always paved by deception…be sure your faith in the PTR won’t make you weak &/or under prepared. That is all I ask.

        SamFox

        • #78 written by Ron Murphy
          about 7 months ago

          Well, stated, Sam. But I believe Grace missed the wrath of God. It is the last seal, not the first 6. You are right on with the falling away. The verses describe the falling away just below in that chapter. Also Rev. 13:8.

          Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    • #79 written by James R. Manning
      about 2 years ago

      No, my Brother Ted. It’s not Blasphemy to be mislead or to hold another, though incorrect, belief. You can be sincere about something, but sincerely wrong. Some peoples eyes have been blinded by the many years of Church teachings and indoctrination and can’t see anything different. Now, they are still good Christians and are bound for Heaven’s kingdom. Our Brother Paul said that there is only one foundation that you can lay and that foundation is the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified and raised from the dead, the hpoe of glory. And it is this hope in Jesus that resides in our hearts that cleanses and pruifies us. Now, we have to be careful how we build on this foundation. We can build with solid truth, in love rightly dividing the Word of God or we can build on it with certain error and suffer loss, but yet the soul shall be saved. Though others may err in some issues of doctrine, yet their belief and trust is in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior alone. It is this “Faith” that preserves them. We can disagree with one another on certain issues, but we must through love remain Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

      1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
      1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
      1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
      1 Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
      1 Cor 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
      1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

  • #80 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    amazinggrace2true

    As I have asked EVERYONE on this thread, I ask you. Please answer these questions FROM THE BIBLE.

    If you cannot answer them, then any rapture EXCEPT a post trib rapture is impossible>>>

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation. Where is it?

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all! Where is it?

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib. Whereis it in the bible?

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib. Where is PROOF, please post the verses.

    NOW, once more, I ask ALL OF YOU, where is your proof? If you cannot provide it, then you are promoting a lie!

  • #82 written by amazinggrace2true
    about 3 years ago

    No where does GOD change. dirk I have clearly stated through Biblical passages that those who truely believe the Gospel of Christ are Raptured before the Wrath of the Lord. I have Posted the Proof. It is up to you whether you are one of those 5 virgins that are taken or one of the 5 that are left behind. You have not read my post properly or even given thought to it. It is up to you what you believe but do not ever put down a fellow believer…. And Ted, you have not even opened your eyes to my comments in what the Word of GOD does say. As with both you and Dirk, you clearly have a closed mind set when reading veryone elses comments. I once believed that we would all go through the rapture but I was lead to these verses.. through the guidence of the Holy Spirit … why?? Because No where ever does GOD Change and No where in his Word does he pour out wrath on “His People” another is when Jesus does come back on this Earth he comes back with “His Saints” how can he come back with his Saints when they are still sleeping in the Earth or they are still on this earth??? The answer is that the Rapture occurs before the Wrath of GOD. And Ted do not tell me im being Blasphemous, who are you to judge anyone? I do not judge you, and remember “you will be judge according to how you judge” READ what I have written, study it with an open mind not a closed heart in stubborness. i have raised some interesting points. GOD Bless and may the LORD be with us all x

    • #83 written by James R. Manning
      about 2 years ago

      You are mistaken and confused my friend about the Warth of God. All the Elect Saints of the Great Tribulation period who are hounded, persecuted, ridiculed and killed for the Word of God and their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ are not suffering as a part of the Warth of God. They will be suffering from the Warth of Satan, the Warth of the Beast-666. A lot of people teach that this Great Tribulation period is the Warth of God come upon a wicked and unbelieving world, but they are totally wrong. It is the Warth of Satan because he is cast upon the earth and his time is short. (Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12) For it is Satan that will give power unto the Beaast-666 to make war against the Saints and to overcome them, that many will be killed. But, they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (this Lamb is our Lord Jesus), and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (You see what the scriptures say here, these saints have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb of God; these are not all Jewish believers nor Jews per say, because the Jews don’t as yet believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Although at the time of the end, one third of the Jews will call on and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The other two thirds of the Jews of the nation of Israel will be killed.)
      Also, remember in Egypt in the Old Testiment how God protected all the Nation of Israel form the plagues in the Land of Goshen. He’s going to do it again for the Saints of the Great Tribulation period. Our God is a mighty God and able to save to the uttermost and nothing is too hard for him.

    • #84 written by SamFox
      about 7 months ago

      Amazingrace, do you have any direct statements from scripture to show there are any left behind at Jesus’ 2nd advent?

      Can you even show that Yeshua is coming 2 more times that equal one 2nd advent even though these 2 comings of Christ are 7 years apart?

      I want you to please post up DIRECT, on their face statements from the Book. No esigesis or inference. I want straight up statements from the Bible that do not need interpreting, overlaid meaning or adding to.

      Dirk, I & others have shown clearly from DIRECT statements that on their face show that a PTR is not possible because it is NOT DIRECTLY taught in the book.

      NO DOCTRINE or teaching that we follow as mainstream Bible teaching relies ONLY on esigesis or inference like the PTR teaching has to.

      I’ll make it easy. Show where the Book DIRECTLY says–

      We go to heaven at Yeshua’s 2nd coming, return or His revelation.

      There are ‘tribulation saints’.

      Jesus is coming twice more.

      There are those ‘left behind’ at the 1st half of the 2nd advent.

      The 144,000 become evangelists & have a great revival.

      Then show us how to know what verses apply to the 1st half of the 2nd advent & those that indicate the 2nd half of the 2nd coming.

      And

      Which verses apply to pre-trib saints & which belong to the ‘left behind’.

      I doubt I’ll be getting much back on all the above. Thanks any way. :-)

      SamFox

    • #85 written by SamFox
      about 7 months ago

      Amzinggrace, you have posted not even ONE direct statement to back you up.

      You rely ENTIRELY on esigesis & inference. That’s NOT A GOOD WAY to teach an entire doctrine.

      God be with.

      SamFox

  • #86 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    listen i think maybe dirk and i are coming off wrong here …. this arguement id the main reason we r stuck at spreading the good news the “fear tactic” i think what dirk and i are saying is stop using this tactic it doesnt help and its very unbiblical… no amazinggrace2true you know what you did and i called you out on it you added to revelations 4… it says in the bible it is our duty to do so to fellow brothers and sisters my own brother who is a minister did that to me today as well and he agreed with what dirk and i are saying there is no pre or mid rapture … we differ on the end of the world thing where i think God is going to not destroy the earth he does … but rapture we agree is false to be pre or mid… anyways my point is that we need to teach and tell others about the love Jesus has for everyone not the hate notion of killing everyone that goes against him … Jesus died for everyone … now we still have the will to deny that but so does a drunk deny they have a problem do we show them hate or do we help them find the path… amazinggrace2true i can bet that you wouldnt even speak to me in person because im covered in tats and peircings and wear black and a chained wallet but if you looked closer you’d see my tats consist of things promoting christianity one of which says Jesus in english greek and hebrew writing but you wouldnt see that would you …. my point is set the hate and fear mongering aside and look at the bigger picture

    • #87 written by amazinggrace2true
      about 3 years ago

      Oh Ted x Please dont say I wouldnt even speak to you because of the way you look. ive had peircings, although no tattoos… but really freaky hair styles lol x i have a close friend, she is covered in tattoos and peircings… i grew up with Punk rockers and many diverse people and i loved them all. And No I “wouldnt see that” because I dont judge people by their appearence but how they treat me and whether they are of good heart and not heartless. It is you that seemed to have judged me. If i have offended you then I appoligise. GOD knows my heart…… even though we dont see eye to eye on the Rapture as with many, my intentions were to mearly put my thought and finding in comment. AS for the “Fear Factor” the only fear is for those without Christ for he is the Truth, the Life and the Way. For GOD does NOT change… as he said in the days of Noah and In the days of Sodom and Gamorrah….. Noah and Lot and their Families were saved. They did not go through GODs wrath… there is nowhere in the Bible that GOD faithful believers are subjected to GODs Wrath….. does it? Yes the World will judge believers… its happening now, and it will get more intense.. even in the West, this will test many.
      GOD bless x

    • #88 written by amazinggrace2true
      about 3 years ago

      to add, Ted you have not once quoted any scripture to back up that there is no rapture. i have taken all that I can out of GODs Word… as with Dirk at least he quoted scripture in evidence of his belief. Many Ministers believe like i do and many believe like you. why are you
      stuck at speading the Good News”? Why? if it is the Truth and the HolySpirit is with you then you just plant the seed of the Gospel it has nothing to do with the rapture… even if they ask, as they have asked me I would say it is not clear but there are many who believe differently and ask them to read the Word instead of being preached to and told what the end times mean… like you are doing to me, let them enjoy reading the Word or listening to the Bible and let the Holy Spirit Guide them not you or I x

  • #89 written by amazinggrace2true
    about 3 years ago

    In Reference to Dirk’s questions om Matthew 24 vs 29-31 x
    1. It reads like the rapture. Even if this passage were strictly and only speaking of the supernatural gathering together of the Jews carried one by one by Angels to another location, that alone is certainly similar to various rapture events such as happened to Philip in Acts 8:39-40 who was transported from place to place, and to Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11-12

    2. The parallel passage from the gospel of Mark 13:27 says they are gathered “from… earth to… heaven.” The rapture is a gathering of people into the air, 1 Thess 4:17.

    3. It is “A great sound of A trumpet” in Matthew and not necessarily “the great trumpet” of Isaiah 27:13. Why is Matthew more vague, saying “a trumpet” instead of “the great trumpet”? Is it because two events are in view? The point is that a trumpet sounding blast is a key element of the rapture mentioned in 1 Thess 4:16 “the trump of God” and 1 Cor 15:52, “at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound.”

    4. It mentions the son of man “coming in the clouds”, as does 1 Thess 4:17. “…caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…”

    5. Matthew 24 is filled with double references. These passages can easily be describing BOTH the pretribulation rapture, and the posttribulation gathering together of the Jews. I believe it is typical of the Lord to conceal things in prophecies like this. It hides things from unbelievers, and makes the study of his word glorious, bringing glory to God. (“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” –Prov 25:2)

    Furthermore, a third event might also be in view which is the posttribulation return from out of heaven of those who were previously raptured. The return of the saints from out of heaven following Jesus Christ is pictured in Revelation 19. The first reason for this idea is that Matthew writes they are gathered “from one end of heaven to the other” and not gathered from the earth as does Mark. The second reason is the “great trumpet”, because this is associated with the Day of Atonement, which should be fulfilled at the end of the tribulation with the defeat of Satan. The third reason might be that the two events, the gathering of the Jews from the earth, and the gathering of the saints from heaven, all together into Christ’s presence at his return, happens at the same time. If these two gatherings from the earth and heaven happen at once, it would make sense that these two events are blended together in scripture. Thus, the term “elect” can easily refer to both the Jews and to the previously raptured Christians.

    6. Matt 24:30 appears to be the rapture because of the mention of the sign, “the sign of the Son of man in heaven”. Those who deny the pretribulation rapture have challenged, “Where does the Bible ever describe two returns in one verse?”. Well, in Matt 24:30, the “son of man” is mentioned twice, first as a sign in heaven, and then, after the nations mourn, he is coming in the clouds. The pretribulation rapture would, indeed, be a sign for the nations.

    As an aside, if the rapture is “the sign of the Son of man in heaven”, then it supports the argument that Jesus remains in heaven at the rapture. This is an important point, because it refutes the argument from Acts 3:21 that Jesus cannot return before the “time of restitution of all things” which is supposed to be after the tribulation. This argument is refuted because Jesus remains in the sky, in heaven, at the rapture. (Sky and heaven are nearly interchangable terms in scripture.) Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    I wonder, if the sign of the son of man in heaven is not the rapture, then what else would it be? And there is no statement in Matt 24:30 that the three sequential events need happen simultaneously. There could easily be 7 years from the sign to the coming of Christ in glory. After all, there needs to be time for the nations to mourn, which would be the tribulation.

    Matthew 24:
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    This description in Matt 24:36-41 where people are living their lives as usual, is out of place with the description of how they will act after the beginning of the stellar signs and the Day of the Lord when the nations are mourning, as described in verses 29-31. The mourning in grief and lamenting seems most appropriate for the beginning of the tribulation, and anger is appropriate for the end.

    Thus, we have three descriptions of the emotional state of the nations, which represent three different times. Life as usual before the rapture at the start of the tribulation. Mourning after the rapture in the tribulation. And finally, anger at the end of the tribulation at Armageddon. This also shows that the description of Matt 24:29-31 is apt for the beginning of the great tribulation, at the start of the Day of the Lord.

    Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
    7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:
    8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Isaiah 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

    Amos 5:16 Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the LORD, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful of lamentation to wailing.

    Zephaniah 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
    11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.

    Joel 1:13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

    Thus, the emotional state of the nations may be a strong clue to what is being described here, which is the tribulation of the Day of the Lord.

    Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    The tribes of the earth mourning seems to most appropriately describe the start of the day of the Lord, just after the pretribulation rapture. This is long before the world has turned angry at Armageddon.

    9. They vs. You
    And there is another key word in this verse: THEY. It says “they shall see the Son of man”… Now, if seeing Christ return after the tribulation was the blessed hope of the believer, wouldn’t the appropriate word be YOU? Why the change, unless it signifes that faithful believers, YOU, are no longer there?

    Luke also contains the different words “they” and “you”, but also includes a phrase that might be a final warning to be especially ready, which suggests to be ready for the rapture.

    Luke 21:27 And then shall “they” see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up “your” heads; for “your” redemption draweth nigh.

    The question must be asked, why “didn’t” Jesus say in verse 27, “and then shall YOU see the Son of man coming”? The answer is that YOU would be behind Jesus, following after him as depicted in Rev 19. The armies that follow him out of heaven would include faithful believers such as YOU.

    The phrase “when these things begin to come to pass” indicates a pretribulation rapture before all these things come to pass. It does not say “after these things completely come to pass…” Nor does it say “when these things begin to come to pass, hide your heads, for you will have to endure tribulation for several years”. And a few verses later, Luke records one of the strongest pretribulation verses in the Bible:

    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    In order to escape the abomination of desolation, which is among “all these things that shall come to pass”, the rapture must be before the tribulation.

    God Bless x

    • #90 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      You really need to pay close attention to these verses…
      Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
      Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
      Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
      Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
      Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
      Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
      Now read this verse…
      Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
      Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
      Verse 30 clearly states Let them grow both together until the harvest. The harvest is the end of the world. How can you stand behind the pre-trib rapture when our Lord clearly defined this.
      People are listening to the doctrine of men.
      Jesus said…
      Lk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
      Our spiritual leaders are taking Gods Word and twisting it so we can make Gods Word fit our lifestyle and not our lifestyle to fit Gods Word.
      May you Be Blessed in finding the truth!

  • #91 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    again i didnt judge you i called you out on you adding that rapture sentence to revelations 4 which speaks about a vital cornerstone of christian faith to be as the elders are towards Jesus lay our crowns at his feet and praise him eternaly … take off your back pack of woes and sorrows and tell him i can not do this please you do it and amazing thing is Jesus wants us to do that …. so you see by using revelations 4 for your pre trib rapture arguement you are taking away a vital teaching that God has for us … and to me thats blasphemy… and im pretty sure God doesnt like that since he says not to do that several times in the bible …. i did not say that to judge you but to make you aware of what you did but i must only tell you this twice and let God tell you the rest

  • #92 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    Amen, brother wayde i wish i was more knowledgable in verses and where they were but at least i can memorize the meaning of Jesus truths … that was beautifully written and very helpful for me … in this blog and speaking with my brother who is a minister ive come to the real truths 1. there is no pre-rapture 2. there is a gathering of us all who believes in Jesus on the day of great harvest 3. the world will end and a new one that is in harmony with Gods word will begin. 4. we need to be teaching of Gods love then his wrath on the non-believers. … question, how many of you say i am saved from Gods wrath of the end of the world because i was born again and will be raptured when the end of the world comes? now how many of those people recieve eyes rolling and umm ok’s from the non-believers? i started this way 2 years ago and recieved nothing but negative reactions … then i wised up and stopped talking this way to try and help save others until i had studied more … and today i now say you should come to know the lord Jesus love for you for no matter what you do or say or think he loves you times are ruff and satan has easy way outs but Jesus has so much more for you if you just wait for him … Today as i spoke to a procliamed wiccan she said you know ive never heard it put that way my freind invited me to her church i told her idk but i think im gonna go now …. those words were the sweetest words to hear because it was not hers but Gods words and we all know Gods words are sweeter then honey i about started to sing our God is an Awesome God he reigns from heaven above…. but i figured i better quit while i was ahead and let God take over lol… i joke but seriousely folks the point im making is that when i stopped talking about destruction and hate and hell and evil and … well quilt tripping on a non-believer … i noticed a positive responce and Jesus taking the reigns after you say yehaw giddy up … he lets you watch him turn a non-believer into a brother or sister that has a heart after God

    • #93 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      Brother Ted…as I read your post I became very concerned when you said you thought you might attend this church of the proclaimed wiccan woman. You need to be very cautious here my brother… for if she is proclaiming herself to be a wiccan and a christian she truly is not a child of God and has an unfamiliar spirit. Remember what scripture says…
      2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
      IMHO if she is a true christian she would never refer to herself as being a wiccan and would denounce this belief of the devil. Sounds to me like she is straddling the fence.
      2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
      This is the problem with todays churches for they allow corruption to enter into the church therefore corrupting the whole lump. A good example is the pre-trib rapture.
      Be not deceived my brother in the Lord for scripture says…
      2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
      2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
      2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
      May Gods light shine upon you in this matter and reveal the truth unto you!!!
      Next I would like for you to have this beautiful program that was given unto me which helps me in reference and study in Gods Word. This has many translations for those using other bibles than the KJV which I am impartial to. And is a free download.
      http://www.e-sword.net/
      Be Blessed

  • #94 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    oh no no no wayde im saying she used to be a wiccan ive been talking with her about God and she has denounced wicca and believes in Jesus and im not going to the four square church with her 1. she is a child of 18 2. i am a married man …. so no i was saying God touched her heart and she is on the road to know Jesus …

    • #95 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      Ted…sorry for the misunderstanding of your message. Even though you did not clarify that she had denounced wicca. Praise God she is now a child of God!!! Keep her close and let her not fall into the docrine of men, by using the Word of God to reveal the fallacies of what many churches and people are teaching today.
      I hope you take a look at the program e-sword for it is a blessed tool to have.
      May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Be Blessed my brother!

  • #96 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    the other good one is biblegateway

    • #97 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      Biblegateway is good. But I believe e-sword is a better program that downloads Gods Word on your computer.
      It has a Strongs reference, bible search, dictionary, topic notes, study notes and many other uses you may find applicable. And you do not have to go online to use it. I have seen programs for sale for as much as $50-$100 that do not even come close to it. Best of all it is free.
      Be Blessed

      • #98 written by Wayde
        about 3 years ago

        I made a comment about e-sword in my post having many translations. What I meant to say is it has many versions of the Bible. This program allows you to compare many of these versions side by side.
        Sorry for this error in my post.
        Be Blessed

  • #99 written by Kevin
    about 3 years ago

    I strongly suggest that any Christian wanting to decipher eschatology read E.W. Bulinger’s “Figures of Speech in the Bible,” or Milton Terry’s “Biblical Hermeneutics.” The “catching away” spoken of in 1 Thess has nothing to do with a bodily rise from the the earth into the heavens at all. And regardless of whether you buy into Scofield’s philosophy (really the 16 year old Scottish girl, Margaret McDonald’s , alleged vision of Rev: 4) of a future temporal Star Trek type lift off from the earth, it happened back in the first century! Daniel’s prophecy was unsealed by the John the revelator. The book of Revelation is about the revelation of Jesus Christ, not a yet future apocalyptic end of the earth and cosmos.

    • #100 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      @Kevin…you said,” it happened back in the first century!”
      Would you care to explain this?

      and you said,” Daniel’s prophecy was unsealed by the John the revelator.”
      I would like to ask you how do you come to this conclusion? For scripture says..
      Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
      This verse clearly states” the time of the end.”
      John was banished to the Isle of Patmos by Emperor Domitian (A.D. 81 to 96). The time of the end was not in Johns time, but the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given unto him to write these things which he saw in a book and give it unto the churches which were in Asia.
      Please explain your statement.
      Be Blessed

  • #101 written by Allah's Dead, Jesus Isn't!
    about 3 years ago

    I’m confused! There’s going to be a Revival near the end of time yeah? Is this going to be worldwide or just in certain countries? Has it happened yet? Can anyone answer my questions? Thanks.

    • #102 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      @Allah’s Dead, Jesus Isn’t…could you explain what you mean by”a Revival near the end of time”. For I do not know where in scripture it says this. If you are refering to a “gathering” then I suggest you read Gods Word in post #34. Or read Matthew 13:24-42 in your own bible.
      As far as a Revival I do not see in scripture this happening for scripture says…
      2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
      2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
      2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
      2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
      2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

      and again,
      2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
      2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      and again,
      2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      We have taken Gods Word and fit it to our lifestyle instead of taking our lifestyle and being obedient
      to Gods Word.

      And if you are refering to a gathering (revival) worldwide or just in certain countries remember what scripture says…
      Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
      Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
      Remember again the parable of the wheat and tares.

      Be not confused my brother in the Lord, but search the scriptures for the truth in Gods Word. And may our Heavenly Father, through our Lord Jesus Christ, give you the understanding you seek.
      My prayers are with you.
      Be Blessed

    • #103 written by Midwest Bob
      about 3 years ago

      2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
      2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      The above Scripture clearly shows a falling away, not a revival.

  • #104 written by Allah's Dead, Jesus Isn't!
    about 3 years ago

    Thank you for that Wayde. I wasn’t trying to twist the scriptures to fit my own desires. I just thought…

    Thanks,
    God Bless.

    • #105 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      @Allah’s Dead, Jesus Isn’t… Brother I do not think you are twisting Gods Word, just seeking the truth in His Word. As am I. The pre-trib rapture being taught in most churches cannot be backed by scripture. That is why I use Gods Word to prove this man made theory is not truth but false doctrine. To me, this is corruption. And if they are teaching this corruption, is it possible they are teaching more corruption? I pray that people who love Jesus with all their heart will search The Scriptures for the truth. For our Lord said…
      Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
      Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

      May you continue in your search for the truth!
      Be Blessed

  • #106 written by Allah's Dead, Jesus Isn't!
    about 3 years ago

    @Wayde. It’s Sister, I’m not male! :) But thank you for your comment.

    • #107 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      Sorry Sister for my assumption.
      Be Blessed

  • #108 written by Ahava heart
    about 3 years ago

    Ted and Dirk have got it right – seriously and the New Jerusalem will be in Australia – if anything goes then!!! Honestly people. I pray that the love and mercy of zelohim open your eyes, remove the veil of blindness – the scriptures are clear – prepare now or be lost forever – there is no ore or mid trib – I hate the doctrines of men!!!!!!! They get people sloop confused and rubbish translations – get yourself an Aramaic English new testament – that will clear all things up!
    No disrespect intended but I hate hasatan and his constant schemes to break our Fathers heart by confusing people – if Dirk has an anger issue then we are all way too sensitive and not filled enough with the Ruach ha Kodesh – love is the greatest virtue of all – without love you cannot please Yahweh – He is Love
    Shalom

    • #109 written by SamFox
      about 10 months ago

      In the book of The Revelation we are told the New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ.
      Revelation 3:11-13
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one may rob you and deprive you of your crown
      12 He who overcomes (is victorious), I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of My God; he shall never be put out of it or go out of it, and I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which descends from My God out of heaven, and My own new name.

      Revelation 21
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      21 Then I saw a new [a]sky (heaven) and a new earth, for the former [b]sky and the former earth had passed away (vanished), and there no longer existed any sea.
      2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, all arrayed like a bride beautified and adorned for her husband;
      3 Then I heard a mighty voice from the throne and I perceived its distinct words, saying, See! The abode of God is with men, and He will live (encamp, tent) among them; and they shall be His people, and God shall personally be with them and be their God.

      Paul also had this knowledge:
      Ephesians 2:
      18 For it is through Him that we both [whether far off or near] now have an introduction (access) by one [Holy] Spirit to the Father [so that we are able to approach Him].
      19 Therefore you are no longer outsiders (exiles, migrants, and aliens, excluded from the rights of citizens), but you now share citizenship with the saints (God’s own people, consecrated and set apart for Himself); and you belong to God’s [own] household.
      20 You are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself the chief Cornerstone.
      21 In Him the whole structure is joined (bound, welded) together harmoniously, and it continues to rise (grow, increase) into a holy temple in the Lord [a sanctuary dedicated, consecrated, and sacred to the presence of the Lord].
      22 In Him [and in fellowship with one another] you yourselves also are being built up [into this structure] with the rest, to form a fixed abode (dwelling place) of God in (by, through) the Spirit.

      1 Corinthians 3:9
      For we are fellow workmen (joint promoters, laborers together) with and for God; you are God’s garden and vineyard and field under cultivation, [you are] God’s building.

      SamFox

  • #110 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    Ahava heart,
    Please do not agree with me then add that a new jerusalem will be in australia. nothing in what i said had anything to do with that. In fact jerusalem is jerusalem and isreal is isreal both are and always be God’s holy land. your coments make me feel that you either are not a jew or christian and a islam believer in sending us far away and acomplishing this buy disrupting the faith of the one true God by clanging symbols of deciet or someone has done that to you. The Jews on the west bank that are causing a rift against christians are not the Jews of isreal they are fakes and a fisaude created by the unholy word of satan produced from the Koran. Gods Holy Land Is Isreal and Will always be Isreal. I know I am not apart of that land, but I also know that I am a brother that will be with the holy land people. In other words there is no scripture that says there is a different place on earth that is God’s holy land only one is and that is clearly stated in detail that it is Isreal which includes Jeruselam and no other peoples will be able to take this away from them ever. so I say to you :Ahava heart: do not take words to make your points and use decernment about the world around you listen to the whole thing not just what you want to hear. The Lord is never changing EVER! Do not worry about the land worry about being one with our lord jesus and everything becomes clear and a path to God is opened to us. Dont look back at the land it isnt your land it isnt my land it is the Isrealites Land and its all material in the end anyways. But it is however a place of refuge for those people alone everyone else has to believe and have faith in Jesus to find our refuge. I hope this all makes sence to you.
    God bless

    • #111 written by Wayde
      about 3 years ago

      @Ted…Remember my brother in the Lord that the Jews are not on our side when it comes to the gospel of Jesus Christ. For scripture says…
      Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
      They cannot see the truth because they are still spiritually blinded.
      Be Blessed

      • #112 written by Josh Taylor
        about 3 years ago

        @Wayde That is Antisemitism.

        Romans 11:28 refers to the people who are blinded to their religions and materialistic ways.

        The Jews are still God’s people and still part of God’s plan.

        Churches like the Seventh Day Adventist, White Anglican, Southern Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, and Jehovah’s Witness have been teaching Replacement Theology saying that Israel is The Church, and Jerusalem is Heaven. They would also say that the Jews are of Satan.

        Ted has a good point that the Koran is Satan’s unholy work. And the Mahdi (Antichrist) will come unto the world’s scene along with the Prophet Jesus (False Prophet). The Prophet Jesus in Islam will say to the people “I didn’t died on the cross. While I was away I converted to Islam.’ and he will break all the crosses and force everyone to worship Allah. Don’t be fooled by this imposter when he appears. We must be faithful in the Real Jesus, even unto Martyrdom.

        The New Jerusalem be on New (Renovated) Earth.

        First, all of the damage that is harmed to the old earth will be cleansed by fire.

        The Two Witnesses (Moses & Elijah) will preach the gospel to the 144,000 messianic Jews. The 144,000 is not the Church, the SDA, Jehovah’s Witness, etc. It’s messianic Jews that will be protected from God’s Wrath and the Antichrist.

        Maranatha

        • #113 written by Wayde
          about 3 years ago

          @Josh…you said,” That is Antisemitism.” Romans 11:28 refers to the people who are blinded to their religions and materialistic ways.
          First, I am not anti-Semitic! As I do agree”The Jews are still God’s people and still part of God’s plan.”
          Second, this has to do with their unbelief(spiritual blindness) in the Messiah and the grafting in to the olive tree. And they were enemies of the Gospel of Christ as scripture says. For they were still teaching the Mosaic Law. For scripture says,
          Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
          Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
          Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
          Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
          Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
          Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
          Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
          Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
          Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
          Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
          Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
          Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
          Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

          And I do agree with Ted concerning the Quran. For I believe Islam is the Beast and Mohammad is the False Prophet spoken of in Revelation. Read the book, The False Prophet, in the link I posted below and verify what the book says through scripture. Show any fallacies.
          You said”The Two Witnesses (Moses & Elijah) will preach the gospel to the 144,000 messianic Jews. How do you scriptually come to the conclusion the two witnesses are Moses & Elijah? And the 144,000 are messianic Jews? Show me scripture verifying both of these statements please. For the Bible is its own dictionary.
          Be Blessed

  • #114 written by Wayde
    about 3 years ago

    This book was real helpful to me concerning the book of Daniel. And made more sense than anything most of our churches are teaching today.
    http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contents_tfp.htm
    May you Be Blessed in your search for the truth!

  • #115 written by Ted
    about 3 years ago

    yes I see what you are trying to say Wayde but to go against the jews or call them my enemy is like saying your an enemy of God they might not think that Jesus is their messiah but they also know how important the true christian is in the eyes of God …. those anti-christians arent really jews watch how they are behaving and dressing its like they are playing dress up and their manners are very much like the palestinians…. anyways wether or not they believe in Jesus is up to them but the good book makes it very clear that they are our brothers and sisters… also i agree with wayde i find nothing concerning who the two witnesses are just that they are put on display and then raised from the dead …. ty for seeing that Islam is the religion of satan Wayde ive had alot of christians discredit that lately and im like wow ok …. and as of the “rapture” people I have a new question for you… What happend to your pre-trib rapture? by my calculations of the seals being broken and according to the rapture theory the pre-trib rapture should have happend already. so what happend? or are yall gonna say that oh it must happen mid-trib … lol… im sorry i shouldnt laugh at yall but its as bad as the big bang theory that everytime it gets discredited they are like oh well i must have done the math wrong ….

  • #116 written by Wayde
    about 3 years ago

    @Ted…This link I am posting is to a book called Islam In The End Times by Ellis Skolfield. I pray that you and any other Christian that sees Islam as a religion of satan takes the time to read it.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/18066650/Islam-Itet

    Be Blessed

  • #117 written by Charmaine Davis
    about 3 years ago

    My one solid reason for not believing in a pre-trib rapture is this: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”

    It will be pitch black! Then what? “the Son of Man, will appear in heaven…” Now, flashback — what did Jesus say about His coming? “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of man be.” No secret rapture. Why? “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.”
    “They (unbelievers) will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” And “they (angels) will gather together His elect (believers) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    Another thing — people like to say the church is no longer mentioned in Revelation and that proves a pre-trib rapture. Really? Why is there no mention of the church? Because churches will be banned, burned, razed and declared illegal. As they are in all Islam-dominated and communist regimes today. So what will God’s people do? Meet secretly — “where two or three are gathered in My name, there I AM in the midst of them.” They may be in prison, hiding in caves or living underground, but they (we) are still God’s people, but God will change their names to “elect.”
    Simple…pray, read, obey, believe and think! Prepare your hearts for the coming tribulation through a solid love relationship with Jesus, tell others the gospel and hold fast to Jesus! Do you hear the call? Answer!

    • #118 written by Al Angelo
      about 3 years ago

      Question: The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ – Is There a Difference?
      According to some Bible scholars, prophetic Scriptures seem to speak of two separate events—the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ.

      The Rapture will occur when Jesus Christ returns for his church. This is when all true believers in Christ will be taken from the earth by God into heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

      The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ returns with the church to defeat the antichrist, overthrow evil and then establish His thousand year reign (Revelation 19:11-16).
      Answer:

      In the study of Eschatology, these two events appear to be similar but separate. Both happen during the end times and both describe a return of Christ. Yet there are key differences. The following is a comparison of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, highlighting the key differences noted in Scripture.
      1) Meeting in the Air – Versus – Returning with Him
      In the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air.
      • 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
      For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (NIV)

      In the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord.
      • Revelation 19:14
      The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (NIV)
      2) Before Tribulation – Versus – After Tribulation
      The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation.
      • 1 Thessalonians 5:9
      • Revelation 3:10

      The Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation.
      • Revelation 6-19

  • #119 written by Al Angelo
    about 3 years ago

    For me personally, the greatest evidence that the overcoming church will be raptured prior to the tribulation can be summed up in two verses:

    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Jesus was clearly talking about the horrors of the tribulation hour that is coming upon the world. The very fact that He instructed us to pray that we may be accounted worthy to escape this tribulation, is evidence enough to me that we most assuredly can escape this terrible time (otherwise that verse makes no sense whatsoever).

    Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    This promise was specifically to the church of Philadelphia, but it applies to all that are overcomers by their faith. This “hour of temptation” indicates something much deeper than just the everyday trials of life that we all must endure as good soldiers of Christ. This is a “worldwide” hour of trouble that most assuredly is a reference to the tribulation period.

    The conclusion of the matter
    I realize that there are true Christians on both sides of the debate. When I first became a Christian, I held to the post-trib position myself. But after being instructed by my pastor who had spent hundreds and hundreds of hours researching bible prophecy and teaching it to others, I became convinced that the pre-trib rapture is the only position that reconciles all of the difficult passages of scripture. Now, fear of the unknown has been replaced with the expectancy of my blessed hope. I hope that after dilligent study of the scriptures, you will come to the same conclusion…….that there is a way of escape for true believers! As always, I’d like to leave you with one of my favorite passages about the rapture of the church!

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Maranatha!

    • #120 written by Michael
      about 9 months ago

      Praise God al angelo I also used to believe in the post trib rapture but after studying the Bible I now see that the pre trib rapture is the truth.

  • #121 written by Charmaine Davis
    about 3 years ago

    What I get from Scripture :
    intense tribulation
    utter darkness
    brilliant lightning
    Second and FINAL coming of Jesus Christ (“EVERY eye shall see Him”)
    trumpet blaring
    gathering of dead and alive Saints from all over the world aka “rapture”

    I do believe that watchful saints will not be caught unawares. This escape (pre-trib rapture delusion) mentality has been detrimental to the Western church! The chronology I just gave is from Jesus Christ Himself! Totally straightforward. Took seconds to grasp. The pre-trib doctrine is complicated and long-winded. Jesus’ doctrine is straightforward and simple. Unbelief makes things complicated.

    My communication is meant to be informative, not divisive. Again, I exhort every Christian to read the Word for him/herself. Deception and misunderstanding is RAMPANT, we must read and study for ourselves and hear the Holy Spirit’s leading.

    It is great to discuss the things of God. Helps us to grow and mature.

    The most important thing is Jesus is coming, let us all be ready with washed garments!

  • #122 written by Midwest Bob
    about 3 years ago

    The pretrib rapture theory is a commonly taught end time myth. This false myth got it’s start in 1591 with a Jesuit priest who’s goal was to stop the reformers from teaching the Catholic church was the whore of Babylon. The theory evolved through time with the aid of Manuel de Lacunza, Edward Irving, Robert Norton, Margaret McDonald, John Darby and CI Scofield. C. I. Scofield decided to include the erroneous theory in the annotated Bible he was working on. Sound Bible scholars of the day (like A. J. Gordon, Charles R. Erdman and W.G. Morehead) tried to dissuade him. Three members of Scofield’s revision committee resigned over Scofield’s unswerving support for the view and it was incorporated into the Scofield Bible. Over the following decades the Scofield Bible became the most widely read Bible in the English language, resulting in a myth becoming a commonly taught false doctrine.

    There is much Scripture that proves this doctrine false but due to constraints of time and space I will only try to provide a brief but Bibllically sound rebuttal to the false doctrine.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
    the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
    heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
    shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the
    things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and
    the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,
    the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Notice the verse (1Cor15:52) clearly states that we are taken at the LAST trump. Therefore it would have to include the seven trumps of Revelation. Scripture does not lie so the trump of 1 Cor15:52 can’t come before the seventh trump of Revelation or it would not be the last. Either the trump of 1 Cor15:52 is the same trump as the seventh trump of Rev or it would have to come after. We can rule out the possibility that it comes after the seventh trump of Revelation because Revelation 10:6 & 7 tells us that when the trump sounds “that there should be time no longer” and “the mystery of God should be finished” So clearly according to Scripture (God’s inspired word) we are taken at the last trump and at the last trump there is time no longer and the mystery of God is finished. If the mystery of God is finished and there is time no longer how can the tribulation come after that? Besides doesn’t Matthew24:29-31 tell us the Lord returns and gathers the believers after the tribulation? A pretrib rapture would directly contradict the Scriptures quoted. Many churches today still promote the myth of a pretrib rapture but it is so counter to the plain statements of the Bible (particularly the last trump) that I can’t help but wonder how it has gained such widespread popularity.

    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their
    own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

  • #123 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    I find it difficult to understand how those who believe in a pre trib rapture can sit there and believe they are correct when there are so many passages that totally DISPROVE a pre trib rapture and NOT ONE VERSE SAYS ANYTHING about the saved being gathered BEFORE the Rapture.

    How can you be so very deceived? You will have to explain to God why you did not love the truth.

    • #124 written by SamFox
      about 10 months ago

      Dirk, keep up the good work. You ARE telling the truth.

      The way I see it, many Christians who grab onto to the PTR are [subconsciously??] looking for a path of least resistance. They seem to be afraid to face the beast & it’s mark.

      The PTR takes a LOT less faith to follow than the verses that says ‘…and they loved not their lives unto the death. ” and “he that endures to the end shall be saved.”

      1.Matthew 10:22
      And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake, but he who perseveres and endures to the end will be saved [from spiritual disease and death in the world to come].

      2.Matthew 24:13
      But he who endures to the end will be saved.

      3.Mark 13:13
      And you will be hated and detested by everybody for My name’s sake, but he who patiently perseveres and endures to the end will be saved (made a partaker of the salvation by Christ, and delivered from spiritual death).

      The above verses are YESHUA’S own words!

      Some one above mentioned Noah & the Ark. The Ark never left the planet. Instead, it rode the waves that destroyed those who threatened to finish off the lineage that Yeshua Messiah would come through. Noah & his family were the only link to Messiah’s lineage left at that time. This is NOT a type of a rapture.

      For us today, the Ark is a type/prefigure of the body of Christ & our relationship with the Lord. [See Psalm 91 also.] If Father can open prison doors for Peter & Paul, He can do the same for us. If He protected the 3 in the fiery furnace, Daniel in the lion’s den, David from Saul, Moses from Pharaoh, bring Paul safe to His heavenly kingdom through martyrdom… is His hand now shortened that He cannot take care of us? Read Heb. chpt. 11.

      Pretrib believers, what makes you so special you won’t have to suffer during the trib? We are NOT appointed to Father’s wrath, so what’s to worry about? A PTR is a cop out. He is able. If Poppa allows us to die, so what? Is He not worth it?

      You need to be ready for these verses,

      Matthew 10:18
      And you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a witness to bear testimony before them and to the Gentiles (the nations). 19 But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious about how or what you are to speak; for what you are to say will be given you in that very hour and moment,
      20 For it is not you who are speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

      Mark 13:8-10
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines and calamities. This is but the beginning of the intolerable anguish and suffering [only the first of the birth pangs].
      9 But look to yourselves; for they will turn you over to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake as a testimony to them.
      10 And the good news (the Gospel) must first be preached to all nations.

      Luke 21:11-13
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      11 There will be mighty and violent earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences (plagues:]malignant and contagious or infectious epidemic diseases which are deadly and devastating); and there will be sights of terror and great signs from heaven.
      12 But previous to all this, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, turning you over to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be led away before kings and governors for My name’s sake.
      13 This will be a time (an opportunity) for you to bear testimony.

      We CANNOT be killed unless Father allows. Just ask bro. Job. :-) PTR people, build your relation ship with Father. Know His word!! NOT some one’s interpretation of it. Let what comes, come. Either HE IS GOD or He is not. You MUST be ready to go to the end.

      If it is the end of your life or the end of the age, you must be ready.

      SamFox

  • #125 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    With all the various assumptions on this page and the blatant lies that are being proclaimed by those who preach a pre trib rapture, let us look at some of the classic “proofs” of the pre trib rapture theory.
    I Thes 4: 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

  • #126 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    We seem to have a real problem all of a sudden. Right there in verse 4 we are told that several groups of people are raised from the dead. They include, those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and those who had NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST . . .

    It seems that this refers to everyone who has ever been a martyr for Christ Jesus all the way THROUGH to the END of the Tribulation, for it speaks of those who NEITHER RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS OR IN THEIR HANDS, but they were killed for that; and now they are alive.

    This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. That IS what the Bible says. But according to pre trib rapture theory, this happens BEFORE the trib. I don’t see that verse anywhere. In fact, this description is almost exactly the same as Jesus’s explanation of when He would return and the end of the world>>>
    Matt 24: 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    So far, all of these passages of the saints being gathered to the Lord are in accord with each other. There is not ONE REFERENCE to this happening before the Great Tribulation. Let’s look at one more passage.

  • #127 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    I Cor 15: 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
    There is all that same information once more. The dead in Christ will rise FIRST and then we who remain will be changed.

  • #128 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    This is the same event. There is NOT another gathering of the people of God to Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE FIRST RESURRECTION and it happens after the END of the Great Tribulation. There is not a pre trib gathering anywhere in the Bible. Each of these passages are describing the very same event or there is more than one first resurrection. That would mean there are at least THREE Resurrections. But the Bible says there are only TWO!

    Where is the other one in the Bible, folks? ALL of these verses are talking about the one and only FIRST RESURRECTION. So, where is the Rapture that happens BEFORE the Tribulation? If it is so very important, if it is REAL, if you got your doctrine from the Bible, it must be there; but it cannot be found. There is no rapture before the Tribulation. ALL Christians go through the Trib.

    And just so we know this, Jesus told us in a couple of other ways.

    He said that the last days would be just like the days of Noah. After Noah was sealed in the Ark, that VERY DAY the Floods came. How many people were saved from the Flood after Noah was sealed in the Ark?

    Jesus also said it would be like the days of Sodom. Well, let’s look at that as well. Lot is warned and made to quickly leave in the middle of the night, so much so that just Lot and his family with what they can carry leave. Lot’s wife is turned to a pillar of salt and a bunch of other people from Sodom were saved from the fire and brimstone God rained down on those cities, right?

    WRONG! Only Lot was able to be saved. So when God’s people are gathered, NO ONE ELSE WILL BE SAVED AFTERWARDS! There goes the whole idea of a bunch of people being saved AFTER the Rapture. Jesus taught against that idea as well.

  • #129 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    It really seems that you have twisted and made the scriptures say something they have NEVER SAID to suit your own purposes, maybe you are making money from this idea. A lot of people will pay a lot of money to hear that they don’t have to change their lives and they will NOT have to face severe tribulation on this earth, but Jesus will rescue them out of all trouble. Except, that is NOT in the Bible.

    So, once more, you are promoting a LIE! Who is the FATHER OF LIES? Is it God or is it the devil? If you continue to promote this lie, then whose work are you doing? God’s or the devil’s?

    Jesus had some rather unpleasant things to say about those who did such things. So, are you going to repent, and recant this lie from satan about the pre trib rapture OR will you seal your fate and continue to promote the lie?

    The choice is yours!

    A bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
    {there appears to have been a problem posting part of this thread, I am sorry if there is confusion}

  • #130 written by Charles Wilcox
    about 3 years ago

    3 sites I offer to learn TRUTH ON END TIMES AND RAPTURE that are well studied and Biblically sound; http://endtimepilgrim.org much to read and learn and does discuss Pre-Trib and Post Trib.
    http://www.askelm.com many articles that can be searched but most informative to start with, Book, THE RESTORING OF THE ORIGINAL BIBLE.

    HAPPY LEARNING AND AS WELL BEEN POSTING ON FB THIS SITE: http://believersministryprayerwarriors.ning.com/forum/topics/the-true-church-a-study-of-the

  • #131 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    Thank you Charles.

    That appears to be a very well balanced address of the subject with a proper conclusion, being in absolute agreement with the scriptures.

    I was not able to read the whole thing of course, but skimming it and looking at the topic of Rapture was very telling.

    The only thing here is, WILL the people of this website and those who read these pages actually GO to that website and allow the LORD to show them HIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH?

    Considering not one of them has been able to answer the questions I have asked,, it is unlikely that they will listen here either. God bless!

    • #132 written by admin
      about 3 years ago

      @Dirk – NTEB’s position on the Pretribulation Rapture is very clear, concise and Biblical. If you choose to ignore the clear teachings of Scripture, that’s up to you. But NTEB will continue to teach the awesome, amazing, true doctrine of the Pre-Trib.

      • #133 written by Wayde
        about 3 years ago

        @admin…if scriputure is very clear and concise about your so called pre-trib rapture then why did our Lord say in the parable of the Wheat and Tares,
        Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
        Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

        In the verses above our Lord describes the end of the world in this parable. In the verses that follow our Lord explains the parable of the Wheat and Tares unto the disciples. Notice in verse 30 our Lord says “Let both grow together until the harvest.
        Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
        Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
        Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
        Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
        Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
        Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
        After Our Lord explained to the disciples this parable they understood.
        How can so many believers today be without understanding. Jesus clearly defines this, the wheat(children of God) grow together with the tares(children of the devil) till the harvest(end of the world). His angels reap and gather together tares to the fire, wheat to his barn.
        How can you not believe the words of our Lord?
        So is Jesus Christ our Lord a liar? Or is the doctrine that is being taught a lie?
        Beware of the doctrine of men. Study to shew thyself approved.

        Be Blessed

        • #134 written by Dirk
          about 3 years ago

          AMEN Wayde!

          When will you answer my questions ADMIN?

          I am willing to support you totally IF you can answer my questions. So, what is the problem since you say the Bible teaches a pre trib rapture?

          If it really does, then you should have no trouble answering those quesstions. Unless of course, the Bible DOES NOT Teach a pre or mid trib rapture but only one at the END of the Tribulation.

          Answer my questions below, if you can.

  • #135 written by Dirk
    about 3 years ago

    Dear Admin,

    If it is biblical, THEN ANSWER THE QUESTION YOU HAVE BEEN ASKED WITHOUT CONTRADICTING THE BIBLE.

    But you can’t. Because there is no biblical teaching of Pre trib rapture.

    I have repeatedly stated that if you will just answer those questions properly, then I will gladly admit my error. BUT you refuse to do the same if you cannot answer them. In fact, you refuse to even acknowlege those questions, just as every person who has responded on this thread has ignored them, because they cannot answer them.

    I know this. BUT your refusal to deal with this issue PROVES you are teaching a LIE! Not only that, but it proves you don’t care.

    Then you will have to stand before GOD and explain to Him and everyone who listened to you WHY you refused to speak the TRUTH. Your end will not be pleasant.

    According to the scriptures, those who have been given the truth, as you have thru my and others posts, and suppress that truth, which is EXACTLY what you are doing, will receive God’s WRATH!

    But you will probably ignore that passage as well.

1 2 3 13