The Rapture

The Pretribulation Rapture

While we cannot name the exact date of the Lord’s Return its nearness may be known by the character of the Times. As to this the New Testament gives no uncertain sound. In Dan. 12:4, Dan. 12:9-10, we read, “But thou, 0 Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the Book, even to the ‘TIME OF THE END’: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.. Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the ‘TIME OF THE END.’ Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but the WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND.”

 

These words declare that the prophecies of Daniel were to be “shut up” and “sealed” until the “TIME OF THE END.” This expression does not mean the “end of Time, ” but is the angelic messenger’s way of referring to the “Last Days” of the “Times of the Gentiles.” At which time he declares that the Book will be “unsealed, ” and “knowledge shall be increased.” What is here meant is “prophetic knowledge” of the things recorded in the Book of Daniel and other prophetic writings of the Scriptures.

This is made clear by the statement that only the “wise” shall understand. That is, those who are enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and not those who merely have intellectual knowledge, for the wicked SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND. How wonderfully this is true of these days. The Higher Critics have labored hard to discredit the Book of Daniel, but without avail, for the Book is more studied than ever, and is being “unsealed” by Holy Spirit enlightened students of the Word of God, who clearly see that we have reached the “Time of the End, ” and are living in the closing days of the “Times of the Gentiles.”

Click here to read our 7-part series on the Rapture and the Tribulation…

 

  • Reading Daniel one of the things that impresses me is the life of King Nebacuznezzer…he goes from a pagon king to a worshiper of the Living God due to what God does in his life.
    I like this diagram because it clearly shows the “Time of the Gentiles” in relation to the major governments. Also, showing the statue on the horizontal clearly shows the ages.
    Could you indicate on this chart the 7 feasts of God too?
    Jesus is seen in these feasts:
    First Coming:
    Passover, the Lamb of God~Crucifixion
    Feast of Unlevened Bread~Jesus Christ sinless death
    First Fruits~Jesus Christ the First Risen from the dead.
    Pentecost~Holy Spirit given to Believers in Christ
    Second Coming of the Messiah:
    Rosh Shananna~Gathering, Sounding of the Trumpet, Day of the Lord~Time of Jacob’s Trouble~but they will be saved out of it.
    Yom Kippur~Great Day of Attonement
    Tabernacles~God and man finally tabernacle together

    • Message from the Lamb

      The scholars and reverends sit on my seat of authority.

      So observe and practice all they tell you; but do not do what they do, for they preach, but do not practice.

      They tie up heavy loads, hard to bear, and place them on men’s shoulders, by making a Law out of the grace I gave, but they themselves cannot in any way lift a finger to help them for they live only for themselves.

      They do all their works to be seen of men; for they quote bible verses and add to their authority according to their educational attainment and the honors they receive from the schools they studied and from the places they preached; and they take pleasure in and thus love the place of honor in gatherings and the best seats and pulpits in their churches; and to be greeted with honor in the marketplaces and to have people call them pastor.

      But you are not to be called pastor or teacher, for you have one Pastor and Teacher and you are all brothers; and do not call anyone in the church on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in heaven.

      And you must not be called masters or leaders, for you have one Master, the Christ.

      He who is greatest among you shall be your servant.

      Whoever exalts himself with haughtiness and empty pride shall be humbled, brought low, and whoever humbles himself, whoever has a modest opinion of himself and behaves accordingly shall be raised to honor.

      But woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you shut eternity in men’s faces; for you neither enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are about to go in to do so.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you enlarge your local church like a cancer cell in my body and for a pretense to cover it up and accept prayer requests for cover up or financial gain; therefore you are heaping up greater condemnation and the heavier sentence upon yourselves.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you travel over sea and land to make a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him doubly as much an antichrist as you are.

      Woe to you, blind pastors, who say, If anyone swears by the local church and by the name of Jesus, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the tithes of the local church, he is a debtor bound by his oath.

      You blind fools! For which is greater: the tithes, or the Name by which the church is derived that has made the tithes sacred?

      You say too, Whoever swears by the service of the church is not duty bound; but whoever swears by the love offering on the worship service, his oath is binding.

      You blind men! Which is greater: the love offering, or the service you gave to the church which makes the love offering sacred?

      So whoever swears by the service swears by it and by everything on it. And he who swears by the church of God swears by it and by Him Who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by Him Who sits upon it.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you give a tenth of your financial gains, and have neglected and omitted the weightier and more important matters of grace–right and justice and mercy and fidelity and faith as a gift. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

      You blind guides, filtering out a gnat and gulping down a camel!

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, pretenders hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but within they are full of extortion prey, spoil, plunder and grasping self-indulgence. You blind reverend! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, pretenders hypocrites! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything impure. Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity.

      Woe to you, scholars and reverends, hypocrites! For you write bible-related books but neglecting the true and deep meaning of the Word and tell the world about the good deeds of the authors and of those who give the most tithes, saying, “If we had lived in the days of the apostles, we would not have aided the savage wolves from among them from preaching a false gospel”. Thus you are testifying against yourselves that you are one of those who preached a false gospel.

      Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins to the brim so that nothing may be wanting to a full measure.

      You serpents! You spawn of vipers! How can you escape the penalty to be suffered from within yourselves and the mourning that will take over you when you see the sign of the Son of Man?

      Because of this, take notice: I am writing you this message and lessons from the very Scripture you claim to uphold; some of them you will reject, even detest, and slander among your local churches and spread fallacy about it among your neighbors, so that upon your heads may come all the Word of God which brings life and the commandment you chose not to follow, from the book of genesis to the revelation, whom you did not give importance in your community and in your life in general.

      Truly I declare to you, all these evil, calamitous times are already happening in this generation.

      O Church, Church, twisting my words and rejecting my faithful servants sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and you refused!

      Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate abandoned and left destitute of God’s help.

      However I declare to you, you will now see me again and you shall say, “Blessed magnified in worship, adored, and exalted is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!”

      • Wow! what words from God! Spirit filled–blessed my soul– God spoke to me about two months ago. He said, “It is near, even at the door.” Even so, come Lord Jesus!

        • Sharon, I get excited everytime I read such mail as yours. I am looking forward for His coming, I want to be with Him forever and ever Amen

        • AMEN MY SISTER, SHARON-:-))
          TRUTHFULLY I DO NOT KNOW HOW ANYONE LIVES 1-DAY IN THIS WORLD WITH-OUT HOLY GOD AND MY LORD & SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. I HAVE READ MANY TIMES WHERE JESUS WAS ASKED WHEN WOULD HE RETURN AND HE SAID ( MATTHEW ) THE WORLD WOULD BE LIKE IT WAS IN NOAH’S DAY = WE ARE THERE. . .
          I BELIEVE THE NUMBER 1-MOST IMPORTANT THING IN EACH PERSON’S LIFE IS THEY KNOW THEY HAVE ASKED JESUS CHRIST INTO THEIR LIFE, REPENTED AND
          CONFESSED THEIR SINS AND ARE NOW SAVED.
          GOD BLESS,
          SAM

      • Is this scripture or a word you recieved?

    • TO THE PILGRIMS OF THE DISPERSION
      1 Peter 1:1-2 NKJV

      The summary of the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his bondservants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw – that is, the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this message, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

      Then He said to me, “You are to make a fresh prophecy concerning many peoples and races and nations and languages and kings.”

      The Gospel of Eternity

      In the beginning, the Father (the will), the Son (righteousness), the Holy Spirit (angels as one), Man (Divine Nature), and Life already existed as one entity. God was all and in all.

      When God created the heavens and the earth, He is actually dispersing Himself. Time, decay and restoration started moving and dispersing themselves. God shattered Himself into pieces yet is eternally One. The Father’s will shattered into many individual wills; the Son became sin; the Holy Spirit became fragmented giving birth to the angels; Man’s divine nature turned into sinful nature; and Death reigned. ((Eph 1:9-10;22;3:15; Rev 22:13; Col 1:20; )

      The first Man, Adam already existed in God’s mind before the creation. (Eph 1:4) When He allowed Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God already began subjecting all creations to disobedience (Rom 11:30). This does not include the Sovereign and Eternal Father who has written everything beforehand. (1 Cor 15:27-28) This is according to the Father’s good will to show mercy on them all so that they will know that God is love.

      When the Lord gave the Law to His people, He made a covenant with them. When Moses poured the blood of the covenant on His people, blood seeped into the land. Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

      No one is righteous. No one can fulfill the Law. For God so loved the world that He gave Himself, His One and only Son to come to earth and fulfill the Law.

      The Father has given the Son all authority to judge the creation, but He came not to judge the world but to save it. (Jn 3:17) He imputed judgment on Himself, condemning sin in His body, making it a public spectacle on the cross.

      Though sin was not found in Him, He who has no sin became sin itself so that all creation will become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21)

      When Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross, blood again seeped into the land. Adam ate the fruit of the tree of life, making peace with all creation whether things in heaven or things on earth through and by that sacred, and pure, unblemished and holy blood. (Col 1:19-20)

      He died and was buried. And God raised Him from the dead on the third day. He showed Himself to His witnesses and commissioned them to testify to His death and resurrection. After forty days, He was taken up to heaven, retaining the holes in His hands, feet and side so that when He comes back, He will become complete again.

      His faithful witnesses testified with all wisdom and knowledge by the fullness of God’s Spirit working in them. When their testimony came into completion, savage wolves came from among them and destroyed all of them. The first Temple was destroyed, not one of the stones remained, only the Foundation. (Mat 24:2;Acts 20:29)

      Then darkness reigned. The world was subjected to the ignorance of the Sovereign Truth. All creation groped in darkness. (Amos 8:11) Through it all, the Foundation, the Rock, the Corner Stone remained standing. (Eph 2:19-20)

      Now the Son has given His saints all authority to judge the world,(1 Cor 6:3-4) but He has found no one worthy. Nobody in heaven or on earth knew the Voice of the Shepherd (Is 50:2).

      Then God stirred up the hearts of His faithful servants from the east (Is 24:15-16) to seek His face and hear His Voice. With the boldness of the Spirit, they asked God for the nations. (Ps 2:8) And God heard them.

      Then the Spirit moved them to stand in behalf of the nations in the same way the Son stood in behalf of them. (Jer 31:11) This moved the very heart of the Shepherd. He found them worthy to share in His sufferings and His resplendent glory and His awesome power.

      He called them the Zion of the Holy One of Israel—His faithful bondservants, co-sharers of His sufferings, partakers of His glory, splendor, honor, power, dominion, authority and love. They are the Bride of the Son, the Helper and His very own body in conquering all creation by disarming all powers, authorities, and dominion and making them subject to the love of the Son. (Rev 19:11-14,19, 17:14;).

      Together, the Son and His Zion united the angels to the fullness of the Spirit, turned the sinful nature to divine nature, subdued death, and totally abolished it by turning sin into righteousness.

      When everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to the Father–the Will–Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all, be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life (1 Cor 15:24-26)

      Now there is one among Zion who is able and capable of totally and permanently surrendering his will to the Father. It is expedient for that one man to give up his spirit to totally and permanently submit his will to the Father so that all in Zion and all creation may be able to lay down their crowns to the King of kings.

      This man is the one whom the Christ mentioned as the sign of the Son of Man coming down with the clouds (Mat 24:20). When the man gave up His spirit for the Father, the Lamb who was slain took over His will.

      And He sent out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they gathered His elect, His chosen ones from the four winds, even from one end of the universe to the other. And He Himself was with them. (Mat 24:21)

      No one knows the end, not even the angels nor the Son, but only the Father. The Father is the will of the creation. Love is giving up the will. Once the will has been given up, the end has come for him. He does not worry of what is to come anymore for He has become one with the Father.

      The world will be destroyed by fire—a fire that will consume all creation whether things in heaven or on earth so that God will be One.

      I, the Lamb, the one like the Son of Man, testify to these things. I am not alone in this for the Father is with me. Amen.

      I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things.

      In the same manner that Lydia and the Jailer heard and believed the Gospel in behalf of their household (Acts 16:14-16, 29-34) I, Josephine Alinsob Quino, hear, accept this message with all my heart, mind, soul and spirit as truly coming from the Lord in behalf of all the family of God on earth and in heaven. By virtue of my being head of Zion of the Holy One of Israel, I stand in faith in behalf of all creation, that they too might believe and avail of the reward that Jesus brings with Him in His coming. Father God, in the same manner that you honored our act of faith when we at ZHOI repented and were baptized for the peoples of the world, we now ask you to honor yet another vicarious act for the whole of Your creation, that we may be finally One with You. This I ask in the Mighty Name of Your Precious Son Jesus Christ who loves us and gave His life for us. Let everyone who is likeminded say Amen!

      • I wanted to ask where you get this nonsense? If its not Biblical based … its nonsense. much of these things you wrote are in fact nonsense. Jesus never told us he was shattered. He is in fact still whole. His Spirit resides within believers throughout the world in fullness. The Trinity is still complete and whole, not shattered. Not broken. Whole/complete/fully intact. Please refrain from fleshly outbursts like this. Its unbecoming to the body as a whole.

  • ‎1Pe 3:15 But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully. [Isa. 8:12, 13.]

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib.

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will
    be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib.

    Now, there are more, but no one can show any scriptural evidence for any of those questions.

    NO ONE.
    They cannot because they do not exist in the Bible.

    Many people may believe many things. I ran into someone last week that did not believe 2/3 of the New testament because he believed Paul disagree with his doctrines and rejected Paul (????? and not his doctrine, go figure)

    I just met another person online who does not believe the New testament is scripture.

    Just because these people believe these things, does not make those beliefs true! There MUST BE a scriptural basis for believing what we believe.

    The above 4 points must be in the Bible for a pre or mid trib rapture to be true because there are passages that state there is a gathering of God’s people to Jesus after the END of the Trib and it is a description of the Frist Resurrection.

    Therefore, there MUST be scriptural evidence for these doctrines if they are indeed TRUE. If there is no scriptural evidence that meets the above criteria, then the whole idea of a pre or mid trib rapture is FALSE. It is a LIE from satan.

    Now people will attempt to say many things, but if a pre trib or mid trib raptur is real, then the BIBLE will say so and the above passages will be in the Bible somewhere.

    Just because a person can explain or put together a bunch of verses and say the Bible teaches something, DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!
    A true doctrine must agree with the FULL COUNSEL of God and that includes Matt 24:29-31; II Thes 2:1-4. I Cor 15 that speaks of the dead being resurrected prior to the living, etc.

    A true doctrine MUST AGREE WITH ALL OF THESE PASSAGES. Unfortunately, no one can seem to find a verse, even ONE, that says there is a gathering of God’s people before the end of the trib.

    So, it cannot be true. That means, an awful lot of people are believing and Preaching A LIE!

    If that is not important, I do not know what is. I care deeply for everyone and want to see them walking with the Lord in HIS TRUTH, not some man-made lie. So I have asked questions which no one wants to answer. I am not causing dissension, I am asking HONEST QUESTIONS.

    I know what the Pre Trib arguments are, I used to believe pre trib, but then I saw some discrepancies and asked God about it. WHen I became willing to be WRONG about what I believed, HE showed me His Truth.

    We cannot set out to PROVE a doctrine. We must go to the FULL COUNSEL of God and see what He teaches us through the WHOLE BIBLE. Once we know ALL the facts, then we ask Him what they mean and HE will tell us His Truth IF we are willing to lay down our ideas in humility and allow HIM to be God and King over what we believe.

    I can “prove” using scriptures that anyone should go commit suicide. This is done by IGNORING all the verses that contradict that act and using just a few that could be used to support it. This does NOT make suicide something that is desirable.

    In the same way, a pre trib rapture may sound like a nice idea, BUT IT MUST AGREE with the WHOLE BIBLE for it to be possible.

    I have places only 4 questions using verses from the Bible that speak SPECIFICALLY AGAINST a pre trib rapture.

    In order for there to be a pre trib rapture, YOU must provide the scriptural proofs those questions ask for.

    IF YOU CANNOT DO THIS, then there is NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE, no matter how you feel about it, no matter how many more verses you think support it.

    WHY? Because the WHOLE BIBLE is just as true as the rest. Matt 24:29-31 is just as true as any argunment you may use. THere fore, there MUST be another gathering of God’s people before the end of the trib, for this gathering in Matt 24 occurs AFTER THE END of the trib. And of course the other 3 questions must also be answered as well.

    I know what you say about II Thes 2:6-8. Yes, I know you say that is the Holy Spirit or the Church being removed. BUT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THIS and that idea contradicts what is stated in II THES 2:1-4. So your idea about the later verses referring to the rapture is once again FALSE.

    The Bible does NOT contradict itself.

    Just because you cannot understand how this works, how all christians can go through the trib does not mean it is not true. You are not God. Neither am I. But God will NEVER contradict Himself.

    That means as I have stated above, YOU must provide scriptural answers for those 4 questions that do not contradict the Bible ANYWHERE!

    If you can do this fine, then I will conceed that you are correct and admit my error.

    If you cannot, will you do the same??????

    • Dirk… go online and type in 7 year tribulation and Ribera. You will see where this false doctrine originated and why.(Precepts of Men). How could people follow this doctrine when Paul tell us…
      1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      now pay attention to what is said in this scripture…
      1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
      These verses clearly show that we will be standing here when Christ returns.
      Be Blessed

      • only the “wise” shall understand. That is, those who are enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and not those who merely have intellectual knowledge, for the wicked SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND. How wonderfully this is true of these days. The Higher Critics have labored hard to discredit the Book of Daniel, but without avail, for the Book is more studied than ever, and is being “unsealed” by Holy Spirit enlightened students of the Word of God, who clearly see that we have reached the “Time of the End, ” and are living in the closing days of the “Times of the Gentiles.”

      • It doesn’t matter what any of us believe or think will happen, it will be the way that God wants it to happen. But I recall of Matt. chapter 52 saying something about the dead already coming alive (which would be what 1 th 4 talks of the dead in Christ shall rise first.) then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (meaning when we die.) Doesn’t the Bible say that to be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord? Now for 1 Cor. 15 In a moment (In your timing when God draws you thru the spirit to be born again) in the twinkling of an eye (as quickly as you could blink God saves you) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible ( Pauls says your dead that have been born again your a brand new creature in Christ, More spirt than that of anything else. And we shall be changed (your changed spiritually not flesh, not soulical. And your right these verses do clearly show that we will be standing here when Christ returns (He told them that when I go away I will return He said that he would prepare a mansion that for were He is we will be also (Where is He but in those of us that have been changed He made us a dwelling place for Him That is what mansion means in the Greek, dwelling place). I am sorry if this isn’t what we all believe, but like I stated it really doesn’t matter because It will happen just as He plans it to be.

        • Todd

          You are correct.

          Regarding the “promised Mansions,” the word that is translated “mansions” is “mone,” which means “a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode, or methaph. of God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers.”

          “Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘If any man love Me, he will keep My words, and My Father will love him and we will come (“erchomai”) unto him and make our abode (“mone”) with him.'” John 14:23

          “Hereby we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit.” I john 4:13

          “Now, therefore you…are built (“epoikodomeo”) on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone; in whom all the building fitly framed together grows into a holy Temple in the Lord, in whom you also are builded (“synoikodmeo”) together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.” Eph 2:19-22

          “And you also, as living stones, are built up (“oikodomeo”) as a spiritual House (“oikos”)…” I Peter 2:5

          “…upon this Rock I will build (“oikodomeo”) My Church…” Matt 16:18

          “In My Father’s House (“oikia”) are many dwelling places…I go to prepare a place (“topos”) for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come (“erchomai”) again and receive you unto Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.” John 14:3

          This passage has nothing to do with a wedding betrothal as PreTribulationists suppose.

          The Greek word “topos,” mentioned above means “a portion or space marked off, a station or condition held by one in any company or assembly.” It is referring to the place each believer has in the Body of Christ, the Temple of God.

          Jesus was telling His disciples that He was going away to prepare a place in His Father’s House, the Temple of God. Each believer, as a “living stone,” would become a “dwelling place” in that Temple for the Spirit of God.

          It is not talking about a rapture, or even the Second coming. It is talking about Jesus sending His Spirit into the heart of each believer. He will make His abode with those who love Him and keep His words, that where He is (in the Father), there they will be also.

          “Yet in a little while, and the world will see Me no more; but you will see Me; because I live, you shall also live. At that day, you shall know that I am in the Father, and you in Me, and I in You.” John 14:19-20 This is a reference to the coming of the Spirit, whom the world cannot see, but that those who believe can see.

          Jesus is coming for us soon, but He has already come to us, receiving us unto Himself, that where He is, we are also. We are in Him, His Body, “raised up and seated with Him in heavenly places.” (Ephesians 1)

          IN ADDITION:

          The Jewish Wedding traditions used by PreTribulationalists in an attempt to prove a PreTrib rapture are the rabbinic teachings found within the Talmud and Kabbalah. That means they come from those who had rejected Jesus Christ and which same writings denigrate and blaspheme Him. There is nowhere in Scripture where we are to take Jewish traditions as a way to interpret Scriptures. There is also no clear parallel. The teachings and traditions are varied, and PreTribulationists pick and choose which details they need to construct a specific scenario supposedly taught in Scripture. Over the years they have been embellished with more and more untrue details. Scripture warns, “Do not go beyond that which is written.”
          The Bride is the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which has the names of the twelve tribes written on its gates and the names of the twelve apostle written on its walls. In other words, the Bride is made up of both old and new testament saints, Jew and Gentile made one in Christ.

          THERE IS NO BRIDE THEFT SCENARIO RECORDED ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE. SCRIPTURE WARNS, “DO NOT GO BEYOND THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.”

    • I personall cannot answer ur questions. although i do believe i know someone who can answer all your questions go to JVIM.COM he is an evangelistic end times preacher and has memorized thousands of versus of the scripture over the last 50 years.

    • Brother, Jack Van Impe gives the answer to your question. He also gives the original Greek meaning to key words to help you understand. One thing for sure if you are a believer you are going sometime, when I find myself arguing I try to commit that energy into winning souls who are hell bound. 0nly the enemy wants us to argue. See you there however we get there….that is what is important. If there is a catching away I will be in it, if not I will see Jesus at His second coming or at death…..Time to be a soul winner bro!

    • The basic pattern is events happening up to the tribulation, like famines and wars. Once the whole world hears the gospel, the tribulation will begin. After the tribulation, Jesus will return. Then after Jesus comes, the rapture will happen. I referenced Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
      Yes, it is ridiculous that people choose not to believe the truth. This happens when people ignore what the bible says in favor of their own understanding and what tickles their ears.

      • Hello, April

        But how can we justify a Tribulation when the Lord tells us differently?

        One of the best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture of the Church is found in Revelation 3:10.

        FROM CHRIST

        “Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.”

        This verse is a promise made by Christ to one of His seven churches, the church of Philadelphia. The hour of trial Jesus speaks of in this verse is the period of time that our Lord calls the “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no,

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        Message View
        FINAL PROOF–best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture
        From: eagleprot@aol.com
        To: eagleprot@aol.com; GabeC007@aol.com
        Date: Sat, Apr 30, 2011 4:24 pm

        WHY DO YOU ANSWER THE QUESTIONS LIKE THIS FINAL PROOF FROM CHRIST’S WORDS WHICH PROVE THE EVENT?

        YOU CANNOT SKIP OR ANSWER THIS ONE AND I KNOW YOU CAN’T CALL THIS DISPENSATIONALISM AND ALL THAT CALVIN
        DEMONOLOGY…YOU NEVER ANSWER THE REAL QUESTIONS…HERE IT IS

        http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/rapturetrib.php
        One of the best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture of the Church is found in Revelation 3:10.

        FROM CHRIST

        “Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.”

        This verse is a promise made by Christ to one of His seven churches, the church of Philadelphia. The hour of trial Jesus speaks of in this verse is the period of time that our Lord calls the “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24:21).

        There are many verses in the Bible that describe the rapture. Christians in the first century church were so driven by the coming of their Lord and savior in the end-times that they shared their faith everywhere. Paul wrote to the Thessalonian church in I Thessalonians 1:6-10

        And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

        This belief in being taken up to meet Christ is the essence of hope. A hope that Satan will fight and challenge with all of his might.

        We also read the following in I Thessalonians 4:16-18

        “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage each other with these words.”

        The Lord will shout a loud command as he descends from heaven, and we will hear the voice of the archangel, perhaps to lead Israel during the seven years of tribulation as he did in the Old Testament. It should be an encouragement to all of us in these times of lust, greed, corruption, self-centeredness and resistance to all things that are not of God.

        • Al Angelo, don’t forget what was said to the other 6 churches. Those verses count as much as the ones to Philly. What you said is some what true, Poppa will keep us. But HOW? Lions den, fiery furnace, Noah’s ark, Peter in jail, Paul let down a wall in a basket…Poppa is able.

          1 Corinthians 10:13, Amplified
          For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to BEAR UP UNDER IT patiently. [Emphasis added]

          This is the only written definition of ‘escape’ given in the NT.

          Paul wrote to Timothy telling Tim that Father would see Paul safe to His heavenly kingdom. How did Paul die?

          If there is a pre TR, why are we told that we much persevere to the end. There are also calls in Revelation for the faith & patience of the saints.

          Do a word study on endure to the end, then faith & patience of the saints.

          John 6:39-40, 44 Why did Yeshua say that He would raise up those that believe on Him at the last day?

          Don’t forget, Yeshua’s 2nd advent is at the last trumpet, which coincides with the last 7th trumpets in Revelation.

          We don’t need a rapture, need a heavy duty relationship with Father, His Son, the Holy Spirit & their written word.

          If we are strong in Messiah, walking daily with Father, filled with His Spirit & know His written word, we have nothing to fear no matter what happens.

          In Yeshua,

          SamFox

          • More for Al Angelo–

            PTR advocates like to quote the verse in Rev. 2:10, “I will keep you from the hour of testing “as a basis for the PTR.

            It is true that Father WILL keep us, but He is not limited to flying us away to do it.

            In my comment above I listed 1 Cor. 10:13. Read it. then read Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:26, 2:17 3:12 & 21 about he that overcomes. If we are flown away, why these verses?

            Why also, is Rev. 2:9-11 ignored? The letter to Smyrna. Also the letter to Pergamum? Sardis? Laodicea?

            Picking only one church is not accurate.

            Also note that though the church at Philadelphia is told Father will keep them, those verses do not say how. That’s why people need to read 1Cor. 10:15 & the verses in Revelation about he that overcomes. I
            d strongly suggest the Amplified for these readings. You can do so at BibleGateWay.com

            Some OT people are said to be types of a rapture. But ignored are all the times Father protected His own without flying them any where. A few examples–

            Noah in the ark floated on the waters but never left earth
            Midwives wouldn’t kill the children
            Moses in Egypt
            Israel during the plagues
            Crossing the Red Sea
            Crossing the desert
            Elijah & prophets of Baal
            Walls of Jericho
            Gideon thrashing wheat
            Persecuted prophets of God
            Daniel & lion’s den
            Three in the furnace
            Mordecai, Esther & the Jews
            David & Goliath
            David & Saul
            Ps. 91

            NT:
            Jesus & the Jewish rulers
            The 12 protected when Jesus was ‘taken’.
            Angel instructs Joseph takes Jesus to Egypt
            Angel instructs Joseph, Joe goes to Nazareth
            Peter & Paul in prison
            Hebrews 11

            These are all ways Fathers keeps & protects His own that are far more in keeping with His plan for His people. Poppa rarely takes His people along a path of least resistance.

            Paul put it this way to Timothy–

            2 Timothy 4:18
            [And indeed] the Lord will certainly deliver and draw me to Himself from every assault of evil. He will preserve and bring me safe unto His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen (so be it).

            So how did Paul get to Father’s heavenly kingdom? He was murdered because he loved not his life even if it meant death.

            No one can be saved, post or pre-trib, any differently than any one else. There is ONE plan of salvation, only one.

            If there were a revival led by 144,000, why don’t they also qualify for a rapture of their own? Why, at their conversion would they NOT be born into the body of Christ, His Church & Bride? Are there a set of scriptures that apply only to pre trib & a set for post trib? No.

            All the PTR does is change what part of the Church is in the trib. But the teaching still leaves that part of the church in the trib.
            I say often, prepare for the worst while hoping for the best. Take your eyes of the PTR doctrine & refocus on Yeshua Messiah.

            If you do that, you can’t lose. If He comes PTR you’ll be ready. I warn in Jesus’ Name, if He doesn’t come PTR, will you be ready? Faith in HIM. Walk with Him. Know His word. Keep focus on Him & let what ever happens happen.

            Jesus did say after all, that he that endures to the end will be save & that He would raise ALL his own at the LAST day.

            God Help us all to love Him & be committed to Him no matter what comes.

            SamFox

    • Dirk,

      Did you miss the Lord’s words???

      FROM CHRIST’S WORDS WHICH PROVE THE EVENT?

      One of the best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture of the Church is found in Revelation 3:10.

      FROM CHRIST

      “Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.”

      This verse is a promise made by Christ to one of His seven churches, the church of Philadelphia. The hour of trial Jesus speaks of in this verse is the period of time that our Lord calls the “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24:21).

      There are many verses in the Bible that describe the rapture.

      This belief in being taken up to meet Christ is the essence of hope. A hope that Satan will fight and challenge with all of his might.

      We also read the following in I Thessalonians 4:16-18
      2ND PROOF
      “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage each other with these words.”
      ===================
      3RD PROOF
      “The bride of Christ shall NOT experience the Wrath of God…”

      The Rapture is characterized in the Bible as `translation coming’ see 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 in which Christ comes for His Church. The second advent is Christ returning with His saints, descending from heaven to establish His earthly kingdom. (Zecharia 14:4-5; Matthew 24:27-31)
      For post-trib believers the Rapture requires that the believers will be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27) although it was absent the first 69 weeks. The post-trib position denies imminency – emphasized by Jesus Himself. He could come any moment without warning, which means there are no signs before this event occurs. Post-trib contradicts Jesus’s promise, because the Bible clearly states an exact sequence of events during the tribulation.
      There is also the Scripture in Revelatiom 19:7,8,14 indicating that the Church, Christ’s Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth before the Second Coming.

      • AL,

        The problem is the WHOLE BIBLE IS TRUE. Any doctrine, any teaching that ACTUALLY comes from GOD will agree 100% with the Bible.

        You are interpreting this verse in Revelation with the idea of a pre trib rapture and we cannot honestly do this and come up with HIS TRUTH!

        We must go to the WHOLE BIBLE and see what the WHOLE BIBLE SAYS.

        The Whole Bible does NOT teach a pre trib rapture. How do I know this? Because of the 4 questions I have asked; because of the post I put here about a PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS IMPOSSIBLE!

        You see, in order for there to be a pre trib rapture, there has to be another place in the Bible that tells us God or Jesus gathers His people to Himself BEFORE the Tribulation. There is no verse.

        There must be a verse that SAYS the First Resurrection is divided into more than 1 section. THere is NO SUCH VERSE.

        There must be a verse that says II Thes 2:1-4 is wrong or does not apply to all Christians. There is no such verse.

        There must be a passage that says there is a secret, silent, unknown gathering of God’s people BEFORE the tribulation. There is no such passage.

        In fact, there are NO verses in context or passages that support a pre trib rapture when the WHOLE BIBLE is taken into consideration.

        NONE of your obejections mean anything other than you have a preconceived notion of that Jesus is referring to. But your notion is false because the REST of the Bible does NOT support or agree with a pre trib rapture.

        Stop trying to PROVE a pre trib rapture and answer the questions I have asked.

        Al, I could “prove” you should all go commit suicide just using the Bible. In fact, using the Bible, I could “prove” you should not only go commit suicide, but do it RIGHT NOW!

        Now that would be a false teaching and would not agree with the rest of the bible. But I could post some scriptures, JUST LIKE YOU PRE TRIB BELIEVERS DO that seem to support that idea IF we already have a preconceived notion or idea that there suicide is ok then I might actually believe it.

        It would NOT be true, but just as reliable as the verses you post concerning a pre trib rapture.

        But do you even understand what I am saying? Does it make any sense to you?

        You are trying to find a way to believe in a pre trib rapture.

        I want God’s truth.

        Who will find it? The one who honestly seeks for His truth even IF it disagrees with what I currently think is true.

        You see, you do not seek for His truth. You want to believe in a pre trib rapture and that just goes about it all backwards and wrong.

        But you will not understand. You will focus on the wrong thing in this post and take it all out of context to find another reason NOT to listen to God!

        • Dirk, continue in your belief. The bible certainly agrees with your position. When I speak to people about the rapture, what I focus on is the tribulation that is coming. Those that believe in a pre-trib and mid-trib will be shocked when they face all the troubles that come with it. They may even lose their faith because they are not saved out of the tribulation when it comes. I feel it’s important that they at least see this possibility. What does the bible say? This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints. The tribulation is coming, and like gold and silver must go through the furnace to remove the dross, to make it pure, so it will be for us. Stay strong in the love of Christ.

    • a very great many of the evangelicals now do not believe in a literal hell and heaven…. just like the Jehovah witness….. so it is best not to go on what man believes….. even with pastors and preachers, there are a vast many of them that are preaching to tickle the ear, to get the body count in church up and ARE NOT PREACHING/TEACHING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED, RISEN…. and are not teaching repentance, ….. they are teaching a universalism doctrine that all will be saved, and THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS…

      some are teaching that once saved always saved, but in Rev. you will find that it also speaks about having names BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK… to be blotted out means that it once was there….. you can not blot something out if it was never there, so if you have been written into the Lambs Book of Life, You can be blotted out from it as well……..

      Christ said….. IF YOU LOVE ME….. YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, not out of obligation but out of love, for if you love some one you do things that will please them, not hurt them…….

      If I believe that there is a PRE TRIB rapture and am prepared for it, and it does not come, I AM STEADFAST IN CHRIST and have a better chance of making it through the Trib should there not be a Pre Trib rapture…..

      IF however, I wait until the Tribulation to try and get read for the Rapture (gathering) I will have a harder time doing it, for the Tribulation will be nothing more then a period of survival….

      I believe in a Pre Trib, for it is written that the RESTRAINER (THE HOLY SPIRIT/HOLY GHOST) WILL BE REMOVED, well, that restrainer of evil lives with in us, and is God going to remove the Holy Spirit from His People? NO!

      To Remove the Restrainer of evil, God will be taking His Children out of the way, so that the evil one, can have his way.

      With Gods People here, the evil one can not…… CAN NOT HAVE HIS WAY.

    • oh, by the way,

      at the end of the TRIB is the battle of Armageddon. so Christ is here on the earth. who is it He comes back with ?

      why would there be (in essence) three resurrections? there are two…. if Christ is here on earth, why would those dead in Christ rise, and then those that are alive and remain follow? Christ is here, not in Heaven at that time…. after the Battle of Armageddon He (Christ) rules the earth and satan is put away for 1000 years….. why would there be a resurrection at that time?

      Where would the 7 year wedding feast take place for the Bride and the Bridegroom? here on earth? not everyone that is on the earth will be righteous, they will have just made it through the tribulation with out denying Christ… then at the end of the 1000 years, satan and his cronies are released for a short season ( believed to be about 3.5 years) to go about their business again, trying to turn the heads of those with Christ……. then the battle of God and magog….

      as far as the Rapture (true, the word is not in the Bible, but the concept is there, just like the word grandfather is not in the Bible, but again, the concept is there….neither is the word trinity, and yet the concept is there, gen the Spirit of God is there, God is there, and in John, The Word (Christ) is also there…. IN THE BEGINNING…. (remember, let US…. plural…. make man..))

      when we see Christ again, He does not come to earth, He is in the clouds…… when He returns, it is to claim his Throne…… AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION and He will be riding a white….. HORSE…. not a cloud…..

      • Mike,

        You are very confused and are not reading the Bible properly.
        First of all, in II Thes 2, Paul tells us that BEFORE we are gathered to Him, the man of perdition MUST be revealed and declare himself to be God in the temple of God.

        Second, the only place in the Bible that says anything about something hindering the man of perdition being revealed is also in II thes 2 and IT DOES NOT SAY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ONE HINDERING. That is from your own mind because you have a preconceived notion that the Church must be taken off the earth first. BUT there is NO PLACE in the Bible that says this.

        Jesus tells us WHEN the First Resurrection takes place; AFTER THE END of the Great Tribulation. It is right there in RED in Matt 24:29-31; Jesus’ own words say that.

        You have many misconceptions, misunderstandings, and believe many lies. You are believing in the pre trib rapture and setting out to prove it finding verses that SEEM to agree with you. BUT that typw of study will ALWAYS lead to deception.

        The ONLY way to know is to see what the WHOLE BIBLE SAYS. If we do this, look at the WHOLE BIBLE and do not place one verse higher than another, we will find out that the Bible and Jesus both teach that there is only ONE Gathering of God’s people to Himself and that occurs after the END of the Tribulation.

        You are headed for a great disappointment.

      • MikeIrish, when He returns it’s with the saints who rise to meet Him in the air & whoever it is He brings from heaven. Those that are alive & remain rise to meet Him as He descends. No mystery. Remain? After what?? Pray on that.

        It’s like this,

        15 And the [Christian] brethren there, having had news of us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to meet us. When Paul saw them, he thanked God and received new courage.

        16 When we arrived at Rome,…

        We see that people traveled to meet Paul as he was going to Rome. They stayed with Paul as Paul traveled to & arrived there, at Rome.

        When Jesus comes we will meet Him in the air & accompany (‘travel’ with) Him to earth.

        Be careful abut departing from the simplicity that is in Christ. In 2 Cor. 11:3 KJV says simplicity. The Amplified puts it this way,

        2 Corinthians 11:3
        Amplified Bible (AMP) All verses from BibleGateway.com
        3 But [now] I am fearful, lest that even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, so your minds may be corrupted and seduced from wholehearted and sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

        What the PTR teaching does is seduce those that believe in it from devotion to Christ & re-focus to a devotion to a doctrine. It is a small step down, but a very critical one.

        If PTR devotees were devoted WHOLLY to Christ, they would be keeping their eyes on HIM, not something He might do. If He does it fine. If He doesn’t, still fine.

        If He doesn’t ‘do it’ just the way they think, if HE is the focus, it wouldn’t matter. My focus is on HIM. If He returns before the trib., I won’t miss it.

        If He DOESN’T come before then, where will YOU be??

        SamFox

    • In reference to the so-called “Rapture” you mentioned the Holy Scripture in Revelation 20 where these Saints are part off the 1st Resurrection. Well, this is the scripture, alone with those below in 1st Corinthians 15th chapter where our Lord via the Holy Spirit, began to instruct me that the Saints of God (would not) be “Raptured” out and\or taken off of the earth until the end of the Great Tribulation period. In Rev 20:5-6, it states that “Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the “second death” hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” In verse #4 it says that these Great Tribulation Saints were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the “Word of God”, who had not worshiped the Beast-666 nor had received his mark upon them and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. It plainly says that these Saints are part of the first Resurrection, and be assured, Jesus and the Holy scriptures only speaks of two resurrections, one of the just and one of the unjust. Now, the resurrection in Rev 20:4-6 is the same 1st Resurrection that our Brother Paul speaks about in 1Cor 15:12-56. This is where it states that: “The Last Enemy that shall be Destroyed is Death” and “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.” Now, if Death has been destroyed as pertaining to all the Saints of God, as defined in this 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians and this is certainly the 1st and only Resurrection of the “Righteous live and dead Saints which Bro. Paul instructs us in; then how is it that you say that death still reigns over the Saints of Revelation 20:4-6? If Jesus has already destroyed “Death” at the so-called “Rapture”, which is the 1st resurrection of the “Dead” before the Great Tribulation, then how do you explain all these Saints “Dieing” during the Tribulation and then at the end of it they are then resurrected in the 1st Resurrection? If those Saints in 1st Corinthians 15th chapter who are alive and remain to that day, will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and the Sainted dead shall rise is the 1st resurrection; then these saints and the saints in Rev 20: 4-6 are taking part in same and most historic and monumental event to ever unfold before the eyes of man. Remember, as the Holy Spirit had to remind me, that “The Last Enemy to be Destroyed, is Death.” This same “Death” that has terrorized and brought great fear into mans hearts ever since Adam and Eve broke God’s one and only commandant that was given to them in the Garden of Eden. Where God said, “Ye shall surely die.” Yes, this disobedient act brought with it not only physical death, but also spiritual death, which is the “Second Death” spoken of in Rev 20:6. The same “Death” that our Bro. Paul spoke about in the Book of Hebrews, as follows: (Heb 2:14-15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself (Jesus) likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.) Here is what our Lord Jesus said about “Death” and its power of fear over us his Saints. “What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:27-28) It is with the threat of physical death, that “Tyrants and Dictators force their heavy handed rule over those who are bound as slaves under them.

      The 2nd coming of Jesus, the appearing of Christ in the clouds of glory and the so-called “Rapture, are all the one and same event and it is going to transpire at the end of the Great Tribulation period. It is the Great Day of the Lord, the second greatest day that will ever happen in the annuals of man; the first and greatest day, was the day that Jesus blood was shed that paid for the sins of man, which gave all man an opportunity to receive eternal life. The teaching of a “Secret” snatching away of the Sainted dead and of those Christians who are alive before the Great Tribulation is of great error. And by it, you may weaken and destroy the faith of many when that deadly and disastrous period comes upon the world, because upon all in the whole world it shall surely come and no weak, anemic and worldly Church shall escape it. Here is what our Brother Peter had to say about this: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Pet 4:17-19) Now, that doesn’t sound like a quick escape artist does it? Please don’t let it be said of you as it was the said of the two teachers in 2nd Timothy: (“And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.) (2 Tim 2:17-18) I know that this website means well by that which you teach and you don’t intentionally mean to harm or mislead, but it’s time to come out of your ignorance concerning this subject. You could become a great tool in preparing the “Body of Christ” for the great darkness that is about to envelop the whole world. Many in that day and time will loose their faith in Jesus and the Holy scriptures and consequently their eternal life when they find themselves confronted with the decision of whether to take the mark to work, eat and live or whether to die a martyr’s death for Jesus and the Word of God; while all their lifetime they had been taught and believed that this day and decision would never come upon them. I hope you see my point; don’t you? As the old adage goes: “To be forewarned is to be forearmed.” This is what Jesus says, “But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.” (John 16:4)

      Keep you eyes upon Israel and the Jewish people for a true indication of the soon coming of our Lord for all his people, which include the Jew and the Gentile. Here is what our Brother Paul had to say about this: “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. As it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

      Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. (Rom 11:12 & 15 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?) This will be the 1st Resurrection of the dead in Christ, the Resurrection of the Just and the Changing in the twinkling of an eye of those who are alive and remain to the Lord’s Coming. As also shall the Saints of Rev 20: 4-6 be resurrected and changed at this same time. The same as those in 1Cor 15th chapter. 1Cor 15:26 “The Last Enemy, (of Christ and of all mankind) that shall be , is Death”!!! Death will no longer have any power over those who have believed and trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ henceforth and forever more.

      Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

      In Christ Service,
      James R. Manning

    • YUP. NO PRE-TRIP RAPTURE.

      HOWEVER, there will be a CONCEALING of some saints, like Revelation says,
      “I will keep you from”.

      Also, Isaiah says,
      “enter into your inner chambers, until the indignation has passed.”

      and Psalm 91 says,
      “a thousand fall at my left, and ten thousand at my right, but it doesn’t come near me.”

    • Problem with the pre-Trip Rapture teaching, it is not directly taught in the Book.

      Boiled down the PTR doctrine says Yeshua is coming 2 more times that equal only one 2nd advent. That the present Church will be taken out before the great trib, but a part of the Church that comes into being later, ‘tribulation saints’, will be left behind.

      PTR teaching doesn’t call the post trib saints the Church, but they would have to be Church. They must get saved/redeemed the same as us, so they would be the Church in the trib. How does one become qualified to be in the Church & pre-Trib raptured? By being born again, saved, redeemed. The post trib saints can be saved no other way. ALL who are God’s born again children are saved the same way, by the work of Messiah at the cross.

      If we all are saved the same way, by Jesus’ blood & our being born again, & this is what qualifies one for the PTR, why would the ‘trib’ saints not also be qualified for a ‘rapture’ of their own? Father is no respecter of persons….

      Note: ALL the PTR teaching is based on esiegesis, none of it on exegsis. The teaching is based on a preconceived idea. The Bible has been twisted as the scriptures are interpreted using eisegesis. Esiegesis is the over laying of meaning on to a verse rather than letting the verse mean what it says straight up, which is exegesis.

      http://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

      Since there is no direct statement that “Jesus is coming 2 more times & these 2 comings equal 1 advent and there will be ‘tribulation saints’ left behind” in the Book, twisted scripture proof texting is all there is to ‘prove’ the 2 stage 2nd coming of Messiah. The WHOLE PTR teaching is based on inference & assumptive eisegesis.

      Let me ask, where does the Bible directly say, no inference but straight up & directly, that Jesus takes us to heaven when He comes, returns or appears?

      Where is the term ‘tribulation saints’ found in the Bible or original language? I looked in Strongs. The word saints in the original language does not mean any thing different in any of it’s uses in the writings before Revelation than it means in Revelation. There is no original language modifier that can be used to say ‘saints’ mentioned in the Book of the Revelation are different [or ‘trib saints’] than any saint any where else in the NT. The same word for saint in the original is the same word in all the NT.

      Why is the pre-Trib rapture not mentioned in any commentary before about 1835? Schoefield came out with his reference bible AFTER that time. Adam Clark’s commentaries have no mention of a PTR.

      Why was the PTR never a Church teaching or central doctrine till after about 1835? The concept may have been mentioned, but it has never been a mainstream Christian doctrine till about then. People SAY it’s there in the NT, but can produce no direct statements in the Book to prove it without resorting to the use of esiegesis.

      Also, how does one determine what verses refer to the 1st part of the 2 stage 2nd advent, the pre-Trib Rapture, & which refer to the 2nd half of the 2 stage 2nd advent, the glorious appearing?

      In the parable of the wheat & darnel [Amplified Version. ‘Tares’ in KJ.] Jesus said let them grow together UNTIL the harvest. He goes on to explain his terms & in doing so quashes the idea that He is coming 2 more times.

      What is the NT definition of ‘escape’?

      1 Cor. 10:13

      For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.

      There will be a tremendous temptation to take the mark, but we can be victorious.

      Revelation 15:2
      Then I saw what seemed to be a glassy sea blended with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his statue and from the number corresponding to his name were standing beside the glassy sea, with harps of God in their hands.

      It is not the Father won’t take care of us or protect us, it’s how. Which is easier? The path of least resistance PTR teaching or for Father to take care of us in the midst of trails, temptations & tribulation?

      Paul told Timothy that Father would deliver him [Paul] safe to Poppa’s heavenly kingdom. How did Paul get there?

      Why are we told many times in Revelation & elsewhere that we must endure to the end? Is the PTR ‘THE end’?

      That the dead will be raised up ‘at the LAST day’, according to Jesus?

      How many LAST trumpets are there?

      What do these verses from Hebrews mean? How do they fit with Jesus’ explanation of the time frame for the wheat & darnel [tares].

      Hebrews 12:
      26Then [at Mount Sinai] His voice shook the earth, but now He has given a promise: Yet once more I will shake and make tremble not only the earth but also the [starry] heavens.
      27Now this expression, Yet once more, indicates the final removal and transformation of all [that can be] shaken–that is, of that which has been created–in order that what cannot be shaken may remain and continue.

      28Let us therefore, receiving a kingdom that is firm and stable and cannot be shaken, offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship, with modesty and pious care and godly fear and awe;

      29For our God [is indeed] a consuming fire.

      Just a thought or 2 that I think are important to consider.

      SamFox

    • The Pre-Tibulation Rapture is the only possibility and it’s scriptural because of who Jesus Christ is, our groom, and who we are, His bride. He would not let His bride suffer through the tribulation, 7 years. His love is so amazing! If you love someone that much, would you let them go through anything bad? No! Plus, the Jewish wedding lasts 7 days, and that’s the time we will be gone. He has promised us He will take us “out of” the hour of trial, 7 years of tribulation, that will come on the whole Earth, etc, etc, etc. That’s right, you take the whole Bible into account. Amen! Maranatha!!!

      • SamFox

        JC, where are your Bible verses to back up your emotionalism?

        Father loved His Son. What did Poppa let Jesus go through? Those in Hebrews 11? You should read Fox’s Book Of Martyrs.

        Father lets us go THROUGH lots of stuff. He proves us & cleans us up with fiery trials don’t forget.

        • The fact is Jesus set the tone for the rapture and only spoke of one. The others only followed suit. They all referred to His.

        • Sam Fox

          Also JC, where does the Book say “…He has promised us He will take us “out of” the hour of trial,…”? Rev. 3:10, KJV says “…I will also keep thee…”. Amplified, “…I will keep you [safe] from the hour of trial…”. English Standard Version, “…I will keep you from the hour of trial…”.

          I looked for take us out & take you out at BibleGateWay in a search using the KJV. The term does not exist in the NT. The closest that ‘take us out of’ comes to is in
          John 17:15 KJV, I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. The opposite of what you said.

          Same verse in Amplified: John 17:15 I do not ask that You will take them out of the world, but that You will keep and protect them from the evil one.

          JC, please do a search on & study of trials, suffering, tribulation. Poppa lets us go through all kinds of those to prove us & purify us. Corrie ten Boom was in a Nazi concentration camp for Pete sake. Her sister died there in front of her. Does that mean Father didn’t love her? Of course not. There are millions & millions of such examples.

          We don’t need a pre trib rapture. We need faith to walk with Jesus no matter what. Like He was in the secret place of the Most High, so we must also be. That was before He died & came back in a glorified state. As He was in 100% tune with Father, so must we strive to be. Then nothing can really touch us. Let those with ears to hear….

          SamFox

  • Maranatha,come Lord Jesus.

  • Yes, Marantha, Come Lord Jesus.

    BUT He will NOT come until AFTER the END of the Tribulation!

  • I agree with Mr. Dirk. I used to believe in a “rapture.” It sounds easy and fun — to us Americans! Once I became aware of the serious tortures, torments, and killings of fellow believers in other countries even to this DAY, my heart was struck. THEY ARE HAVING THEIR TIME OF TESTING ALREADY! Many have lost houses, land, businesses, children and their very lives for Jesus. Many of them were turned in by their own mothers, sisters, and other family members for just being a Christ follower! Where is their rapture? Where is their rescue?

    God will save us (His people) from His wrath, but we will not escape the wrath of man. This will be a time of purifying and unifying and sanctifying of the church! Please follow the advice of Dirk! Put aside your cherished beliefs and let God speak. Examine the Scriptures and examine yourself. The rapture theory is a dangerous false doctrine. The church did not believe in this until some woman in the 18th century had a “vision” concerning the rapture of the church!

    This false doctrine has created lazy, carnal, selfish Christians! We are only concerned with our own safety and comfort. Our fervancy for witnessing to our relatives, neighbors and friends has dwindled over the last two hundred years. Why? I lay it all at the feet of the “rapture theory.” Our nation has become godless because we have favored the words of men over the words of God! We must repent, return to our first Love and follow Him!

    It is very important that we get this right! We must work for the Lord while it is day and while we have a little time left. The very ones we have neglected to show the truth of Jesus to, will be the very ones cutting our throats when the Great Tribulation hits the entire planet. We must prepare ourselves to endure until the end! We must submit to God, repent, pray constantly, memorize Scripture, obey the Scriptures, TEACH OUR CHILDREN God’s Word, and make disciples!
    We must start today! The time is at hand.

    Its time for a Christian revolution! The arms we take up will be folded in prayer, the government we humbly petition will be God Himself and our chant will be “Salvation belongs to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” Fight on brothers and sisters! We don’t need twitter and Facebook when we have the Holy Spirit groaning within us — then we can have Hope and Change that is everlasting! Amen!

    • SamFox

      You are so correct Charmaine! Corrie TenBoom didn’t believe in the PTR for the reasons you state. I also read a book by a missionary saying the same things you said. He ministered in Orient. I still have the book I think.

      Out side the USA it is VERY difficult to spread the false PTR teaching among followers of The Way.

      I did a quick look on the net about Corrie. She also calls the PTR a false teaching & said that those that teach it are the false teachers Yeshua warned us about.

      The search term I used :
      corrie ten boom did not believe in the pre tribulation rapture.

      Miss Ten Boom is one of the great heroes of the modern Christian era, IMO.

      SamFox

  • It’s interesting that the author brings up Dan 12:9 “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.”

    There is another place in the bible that we see similar phrasing. Rev 22:10 “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.” Why would God tell him not to seal them up, if there would be at least 2000 years before it was to take place, just the same as Daniel?

    Why was Daniel to seal away the words of his prophecy? Because they were for a future time, not his time. Why was John told NOT to seal up the words of prophecy revealed to him? Because they WERE for his time and were happening soon. “Behold, I am coming soon…” (Rev 22:12)

  • I have several friends that don’t believe in a pre-trib or mid-trib Rapture. But they also don’t believe in certain elements in Revelation such as The Beast, The False Prophet, The locusts, The Mark of The Beast etc. They say all of these things are “spiritual/figurative” & not literal. I believe they identify themselves as Amillennial?

    I don’t understand why they interpret everything in Revelation is “spiritualized” or figurative, yet they give a LITERAL interpretation to everything else in the history of The Bible (i.e., Noah’s Ark, Jonah & The Great Fish, etc.)

    Thoughts???

    • I call it Christian Atheism. It just another form of rejecting the truth. They have the attitude of Thomas when he disbelieved that Jesus had appeared to the other disciples. This type of people bring God down to our level and treat him as if he is human, bounded by human limitations and earth’s natural laws. That’s why anything dealing with the Deity, spiritual or supernatural are ignored by them. In a way, they are modern day Sadduces.

    • Sam Fox

      Adrian, many things in Revelation are figurative so to speak, but they are figurative of real things, events, groups, people….that will come forth. If those people don’t think the ‘figurative’ doesn’t represent ‘actual’ or ‘literal’, they need to do a lot more study & prayer. The mark for example–it is going to be a real thing & it’s nearly upon us now.

      There is spreading talk, right now, of doing away with cash. How can that be done with out going digital & electronic…RFID chip technology is here now & is also being slowly introduced. Most of the electronic infrastructure is already in place.

      SamFox

  • Hello,

    I have answered all of your objections in my new book “The Spirit of Prophecy”, and more. I won’t repeat it all here, but I will say a couple of things: In the bible the word “heaven” has three meanings. It can mean the atmosphere, the space between the stars, and it can mean God’s home.

    The word heaven in Matt 24:31 does not refer to God’s home, nor to the stars, but to the atmosphere. These elect are picked up by angels and held aloft as Jesus brings destruction on all those with the mark of the Beast. This is also the time when the mountains will fall and those hiding in caves will be crushed. These are people in their natural bodies who will repopulate the planet at the end of the Tribulation period.

    These people are not the Church, because the true Church has the Holy Spirit indwelling them. When Jesus calls He will empower us to come to him in the clouds. We won’t need angels to get us there. There are lots of people who call themselves Christians who don’t have the Holy Spirit, and won’t be going when He calls.

    Something else: There will be a pseudo-tribulation period. This is the time Jesus referred to as “wars and rumors of wars”. This period will take several years and will include the wars of Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 & 39. Rome will be destroyed during this period and the world will say this is fulfillment of Revelation 17 and 18. They will then be looking for a messiah to bring peace to the world, and that is the time the real Antichrist will sneak up from behind them! The real Antichrist is not from Europe but from somewhere much closer to Israel. The European Antichrist is a decoy, a patsy, meant to throw you off the scent.

    Remember Jesus said “when they are saying peace and safety, sudden destruction will come upon them and they shall not escape”? The reason they think it is time for peace and safety is because they think Armageddon is over, but really it hasn’t even begun!

    I have fleshed out these theories in my book “The Spirit of Prophecy”. If you want all the scriptural references you can buy that book. I have backed up every statement with several references, and challenge anyone opposed to prove me wrong by the scriptures, read in context…I dare you!

    • Daniel, Ezekiel 35 speaks of the near future when the whole earth rejoices, as you said, “The reason they think it is time for peace and safety is because they think Armageddon is over, but really it hasn’t even begun!” Israel will confirm the 7 year covenant, the Temple will be built, the redemption of Christ’s bride, the deceiver comes with lying signs and wonders to end WW 3, and the pretrib debate will be over.

  • Daniel,

    I already have proven you wrong. I posted the scriptures that PROVE a pre trib rapture is IMPOSSIBLE and so is a mid trib rapture.

    I have asked everyone to show me in the Bible another gathering of God’s people to Himself that happens at some other time than when Jesus said it would happen in Matt 24:29-31.

    WHERE is that gathering in the Bible? You cannot provide it.

    What about II Thes 2:1-4 that says specifically that the Antichrist MUST be revealed and declare himself to be God in the temple of God BEFORE the church is gathered to the Lord?

    Where does the Bible contradict itself by saying we will be gathered to Jesus BEEFORE the Trib?

    Where is a second part to the First resurrection, For the Bible says there are ONLY 2. AND Paul clearly states that the dead in Christ will be gathered BEFORE those who are still alive on the earth. YET the 1st Resurrection occurs after the END of the Trib according to Jesus in Matt and John in Rev 20.

    You may be able to provide verses to twist the scriptures to make it appear there is this rapture before the trib, BUT, in order for this to actually happen the above verses MUST be in the Bible,

    AND THEY ARE NOT!

    Therefore, your book has no more authority than Grant Jeffrey’s who lied when he said the early church believed in a pre trib rapture. He had to have purposely misquote and leave out passages in the early christian books he used to “prove” his theory

    BUT IT WAS A LIE just as your book is a lie!

    I DARE YOU to post RIGHT HERE the passages that MUST be in the Bible for there to be anything besides a POST TRIB GATHERING of the Saints to Jesus.

    There are NONE! There is no second gathering of God’s people, there is no verse that says Paul was in error in II Thes 2:1-4, there is no thrid resurrection or the first resurrection divided into 2 or more parts.

    NONE of this is in the Bible. BUT IT MUST BE for there to be a pre trib or mid trib rapture.

    SO, where are THOSE verses, Daniel?

    If you cannot show everyone right here, then your book is WORTHLESS; and you are promoting a lie to make money off of.

    • Luke S.

      Dirk, your teaching is false.

  • Mr Dirk,
    You know nothing about the truth!! You are right about one thing you stated . . . Jesus will not come back to earth until the final battle. But He will come one time before that, but it says He’ll come in the clouds and the “Saints” that are a sleep in the ground and all that are still living will meet Him in the air. I could provide plenty of Scripture to back that, but I wouldn’t waste my time. You will be one that will eventually be in front of Jesus . . . and you will say didn’t I cast out demons . . . didn’t we do this and that, and Jesus will say, “get away from me you evil doers, I never knew you. In James it states that if you cause one little one to fall, you’d be better off with a millstone around your neck and cast into the sea. The Bible, also said in that day 2 workers will be in the field, one will suddenly be gone and the other one left behind. It says we will not know the day or the hour in which this will happen . . . but always be on watch. He said you foolish people. You can tell the seasons as the buds on the trees start budding. You say tomorrow will be a nice day as the sun shines red as it sets, but woah to those that aren’t prepared. It say 2 will be sleeping in bed and all of a sudden, one will be gone and one will be left. Would any of this matter or why would there be such distinctions? Now, it says when He returns, all His saints will come back with Him riding white horses. Wait why would His word tell us that “ALL” His saints would return with Him? And if you know the Word so much, you can tell us differently Mr. Dirk. And also the Word says when He comes down to earth that final time and His feet touch the mountains around Jerusalem they will be flattened to the ground. Now wait, one time He’ll come back in the clouds whereas His feet never touch the earth and the last time His feet will touch the earth . . . THOSE ARE 2 DIFFERENT TIMES!! And if you know so much about the Word, then you would have to agree with this statement . . . the Bible says that when the antichrist come into his power, he will make an agreement with Israel for 7 years. NOT 7 YEARS AND A DAY!! NOT 6 YEARS AND 364 DAYS, BUT 7 YEARS EXACTLY!! So when that agreement tells everyone that we know when Jesus will return exactly to the day. So what we don’t know is that, not even Jesus Himself knows the day or the hour will be except our Father God knows. THOSE ARE JESUS’ WORDS!! He also said that the true saints were lucky because He will have the time shortened so His saints will not have to deal with all the trouble and terror. NOW YOU GO LOOK UP ALL THOSE PASSAGES, SINCE YOU ARE CAUSING MANY LITTLE ONES TO FALL!!(little ones are young Christians not little kids) I prayed for you, because you’re gonna need it!! I will not be posting here again . . . because I know the truth. Hopefully you’ll find the truth or you will continue to come as an Angel of light. And finally, if you really knew the truth . . . then you would know in the original scrolls written in the original language used back then, you would know that it does discuss the Rapture. The Greek word being Rapto or to be brought up to. So hopefully you will not cause many others to fall, so you too can be brought up into the clouds to be with Jesus, before the Rapture takes place. Or prove to me in the Word, why all these words are in the Bible.

    • Totally agree with you, I have just written evidence to prove there is a pre rapture before GODs Wrath. Its great to see someone else that believes this x Many Blessings x

      • You are mistaken and confused my friend about the Warth of God. All the Elect Saints of the Great Tribulation period who are hounded, persecuted, ridiculed and killed for the Word of God and their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ are not suffering as a part of the Warth of God. They will be suffering from the Warth of Satan, the Warth of the Beast-666. A lot of people teach that this Great Tribulation period is the Warth of God come upon a wicked and unbelieving world, but they are totally wrong. It is the Warth of Satan because he is cast upon the earth and his time is short. (Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12) For it is Satan that will give power unto the Beaast-666 to make war against the Saints and to overcome them, that many will be killed. But, they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (this Lamb is our Lord Jesus), and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (You see what the scriptures say here, these saints have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb of God; these are not all Jewish believers nor Jews per say, because the Jews don’t as yet believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Although at the time of the end, one third of the Jews will call on and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The other two thirds of the Jews of the nation of Israel will be killed.)

    • @EXPOSING LIES…you said..”(little ones are young Christians not little kids)”….you also said ” In James it states that if you cause one little one to fall, you’d be better off with a millstone around your neck and cast into the sea.”
      Scripture does not verify your interpertation of this and you are not even quoting the right scripture. For scripture says…
      Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
      Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
      Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
      Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
      Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

      and again,
      Mar 9:36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
      Mar 9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.
      Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us.
      Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
      Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
      Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
      Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

      In both references a CHILD is refered to and NOT A YOUNG CHRISTIAN as you quoted.
      You are not exposing lies but promoting false doctrine.
      For scripture says…
      2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      To brothers and sisters seeking the truth…
      Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
      Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
      BE BLESSED

    • Well said Daniel, I agree with you. Jesus is the King and Bridegroom getting ready to steal his bride away for the marriage feast of the Lamb.
      He said in my house there are many mansions or rooms whatever, “If it were not so I would have told you” I choose to belive Jesus Christ.

      • Ken, “house” in your verse means household, which is the family members & any one living in the physical house. ‘Mansions’ means dwelling places, as in slots/places/spaces/open seats that can occupied in a family.

        I also choose to believe Jesus. So what exactly was He saying?

        Your set of scriptures in John was fulfilled in Acts chpt. 2 when Jesus came, returned as it were after His ascension, in & to the believers in the upper room with the baptism of the Holy Spirit & placed those in the upper room into His body. He was fulfilling what Daniel said abut a Stone cut out without human hands that grew to take over the whole earth. See Dan. 2:34-35 & 45.

        Peter’s sermon, just after, was also used to add even more to the body.

        Jesus was not speaking of His 2nd advent in John 14.
        John 14:3
        And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself,

        that where I am

        you may be also.

        John 17:24
        Father, I desire that they also whom You have entrusted to Me [as Your gift to Me]

        may be with Me where I am,

        so that they may see My glory, which You have given Me [Your love gift to Me]; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

        Where was Jesus when He said the words quoted in the verses? He was at that time the sole occupier of the body of Christ. What took place in Acts 2 was the 1st of many expansions [‘growth spurts’] of that Stone as Jesus seeks continually to add to His body, bride & church [called out ones].

        There is no way that any one can say Jesus did not come & take those in the upper room to Himself. That they then did not became part of His body, subject to Him as the Head.

        The believers were born again & baptized into Jesus by the Holy Spirit on the Day Of Pentecost. It can be said that “HE comes again” to each of us who believe because we lost fellowship with Father in the garden of Eden where all mankind was cut off from fellowship with Father by Eve & Adam’s falling into sin. In a sense we were with Father then, before the fall, like what Paul said about Levi, who was in Abraham’s loins.
        Heb. 7
        9 A person might even say that Levi [the father of the priestly tribe] himself, who received tithes (the tenth), paid tithes through Abraham,
        10 For he was still in the loins of his forefather [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham].

        In that sense we all were in Adam’s loins.

        If you don’t understand what I am sharing, don’t throw it out. Put it on a shelf, pray & let Father show you in His time if I am sharing truth or not.

        SamFox

    • Ooo…well said.

      Yet, we all do agree; This is the Beginning of the End!

    • Michael

      I totally agree.We must rightly divide the word of truth and be like the Bereans.I used to believe the post trib rapture but after searching the word I have renounced that as false doctrine.Post tribbers use Matt24:31 like a record playing that is stuck in the groove to prove the rapture.Jesus is not refering to the rapture in this verse but to the gathering of the Jews to Jerusalem after He returns in Glory.This verse in Matt 24:31 ties in with Isa 11:11,12.Isa 27:12,13.Also in Rev 1:19 speakes of the things which were(that is before the church age began ) the things which are(the church age we are in now)and the things which will be hereafter.The things which are hereafter begin in the 70th week from after the rapture shown in Rev4:1.This is all very clear to me.
      Even so come Lord Jesus.
      Michael

      • Actually, Post-Tribbers hold to the original interpretation of the whole Bible. Did you know Pre-tribbers didn’t exist until a Pentecostal girl had a vision of a pre-trib rapture? For 1800 years, nobody thought it was pre-trib. I’ll stick with what those who knew the Apostles believed. Not some 20 something wet-behind-the-ears girl who had a hallucination.

    • Exposing, just because different verses have different details doesn’t mean there are 2 more comings of Christ. All that supposition is added by men.

      ALL the details in every verse about the 2nd advent will be fulfilled at Yeshua’s one & only 2nd advent. How? I don’t know. I do know that Father is not limited because we don’t know.

      If the 2nd advent comes in 2 stages separated by some 7 years, yet equals only one 2nd advent, why is that not made clear with al least a FEW DIRECT statements?

      Why cannot the 2 stage 2nd coming believers reconcile Q’s by Dirk, others & me?

      Like, how does the ‘last trumpet’ fit?

      I will raise them all up at the last day?

      Let them grow together until the harvest, which is at the end of the age?

      Gather the tares first?

      He that endures to the end will be saved?

      Is the PTR the end? No. How does that fit in the teaching?

      Also if the church is PTR’d so Father can deal with the Jews, why does Jesus pray we all be made one in John 17–
      20 Neither for these alone do I pray [it is not for their sake only that I make this request], but also for *all* those who will ever come to believe* in (trust in, cling to, rely on) Me through their word and teaching,
      21 *That they *all* may be one,* [just] as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be *one in Us,* so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me.

      Paul echoes this & expands a bit, when He says of Yeshua:
      Ephesians 2:15
      By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that *He from the two* might create in Himself *one new man* [*one* new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.

      How could there possibly be a dichotomy between the body of Christ & natural Israel? The only real dichotomy is between saved & un-saved.

      Can you fit the above into the PTR teaching? You MUST reconcile those verses & what they say with the PTR teaching for the teaching to be true.

      Like Dirk says, the WHOLE Bible is true.

      I am not mocking you or being combative. I am trying to getcha to really pray this out. God help us all.

      Thanks.

      With the love & concern of the Lord,

      SamFox

      • Quiet simple if you think about it. We should know we are not appointed to wrath. Jesus comes in the clouds to gather, at the signs: sun, moon and stars, Luke 21:25

        Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
        Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
        Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
        Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

        If we run reference to Rev. 6:12 with these same evens we can see the wrath is related to mans hearts failing them in Luke 21:26. We can plainly see in both cases we are gone before the wrath of God because in both cases the wrath is just getting ready to start. The last seal in the book is the wrath of God. The 7th trump it’s all over with, the Lord reigns and begins the millennium. That is when He’s coming back to earth after all the trump are sounded or exactly at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Whether Paul was referring to that or not I don’t know? I believe that he wasn’t. Last trump is referred to last trump of Gentile end or fulfillment of the Gentile age.

        • Sam Fox

          Ron, taking your statement to it’s logical end would mean there couldn’t be any ‘tribulation saints’. THEY are here during all of what you just described. So why are those on this side of the supposed PTR gone, but those ‘left behind’ have to stay during the times you described??

          Besides, none of us who refute the false PTR teaching never said any Christian was appointed to Father’s wrath. However,YOU tacitly say that some aren’t, they B ‘raptured’, but others are, they B ‘left behind’.

          Yeshua plainly, PLAINLY, 😉 said of the wheat & tares, “Let them grow TOGETHER UNTILL the harvest. ” How can you argue with that? Especially when explaining the parable, HE SAYS, “The harvest is the end and culmination of the age.” Those who argue in favor of the PTR are tacitly calling Yeshua a liar. HE MADE IT CLEAR! Together till harvest, harvest end of age. Should I add the several verses where He says He will raise up ALL HIS OWN at the last day? In the parable He told us what the ‘last day’ is. End of the age.

          You don’t have to convince ME, you have to get HIM to change HIS OWN WORDS so the PTR can fit in. Not gonna happen.

          I don’t worry much about what’s going down between our growing together till harvest & the harvest itself. That stuff will take care of itself. Yeshua IS LORD & He can take care of all of us. I KNOW He is taking care of me.

          CAPS are for emphasis. No italics or bold up ion here. I am not shouting atcha. 🙂

          SamFox

  • Exposing lies,

    WHERE is the VERSE that speaks of this other gathering of the saints BEFORE the gathering after the end of the TRIB?

    If can’t show all of us, then it does NOT HAPPEN!

    You have not shown us in the BIble where there is another gathering of God’s people to Jesus besides the one in Matt 24:29-31

    SO, for all of your twisting of the Bible to suit your prupose, you are the one who is lying. because you have not 1 verse that speaks of the gathering you are talking about, NOR does the verse you do mention say anything about WHEN it will occur!

    You are blowing SMOKE!

    And working for satan.

  • Let me add this.

    You have NOT answered the questions I have asked. YOu have tried to confuse the issue with other lies.

    ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I HAVE ASKED WITH THE VERSE THAT MUST BE IN THE BIBLE FOR THERE TO BE A RAPTURE THAT OCCURS BEFORE THE END OF THE TRIB!

    You have not done this. ALL you have done is attempt to discredit what I have said so that you do not have to FACE those questions.

    BUT THE FACT REMAINS, you cannot answer those questions because the Bible does NOT teach anything except a post trib gathering of the saints to Jesus.

  • dirk i have read your post and i must say it seems you have an anger issue. it seems that you want to believe in the rapture but cant. i am concerned for you because if you are a christian born again and with the holy spirit, then honey when you pick up your bible at night to read the word of god himself, pray first that the lord give you full understanding. the followers of christ whom wrote the scriptures were full of the holy spirit, therefor you need to have the holy spirit for understanding. your in my prayers. p.s not everything can be understood for we are human. i believe in the rapture of the church no doubt. but even if i am wrong, im not hurting anyone else for believing it, its just that when i read that is what i feel in my heart. and since jesus lives there now, that why i know it will happen. the 144 thousand that it speaks of in rev i believe are the people who were saved during trib and the lukewarm that were not watching. you should read that and put the puzzle together. you have to cross reference in the bible. to read it front to back will only cofuse u more but there are plenty of scrips as you were told above that proves it. again i will keep you in prayer and god bless you brother.

    • I don’t think Mr. Dirk has anger issues.
      I see him as a very passionate person for his beliefs (wich i agree with). He is trying to open God’s children eyes to the truth…
      Read this again:

      Mathew24:
      “3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
      4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

      9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

      10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

      Mathew24:9:“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. “…. not raptured away and missed all that.

  • Rachel,

    Instead of trying to psychoanalyze me,

    Just answer the questions. If you cannot, then a pre trib rapture is impossible!

    • Dirk dear.
      You ARE angry.
      Teach in love.

  • By the Way, rachel,

    I have no anger problem. Why do you find it necessary to avoid answering a simple question by trying to turn this on me?

    ALL I have done is ask a few questions that nobody here seems to want to answer, or even deal with. They want to talk about everything else including my character, but no one, including you, Rachel, is willing to answer those 4 questions. Just so we all know what they are, I shal ask them once more.

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation. Where is it?

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all! Where is it?

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib. Whereis it in the bible?

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib. Where is PROOF, please post the verses.

    NOW, once more, I ask ALL OF YOU, where is your proof? If you cannot provide it, then you are promoting a lie!

    • Michael

      Dirk,Matt 24:31 is not the rapture but the gathering of the Jews to Jerusalem after the great tribulation.Mathew is not addressing the church in Matt24 but the Jews.The church was not formed yet.Rread Isa 11:11,12 and Isa 26:12,13.These verses tie in with Matt 24:31.

      • Michael, you are sort of correct, but not close enough.

        The Church was formed in Mary’s womb by the Holy Spirit. Yeshua IS the church. ALL His born again children are members of Him & He is the Head.

        The church didn’t come into being on the day of Pentecost. The church was expanded, added to, in the upper room on that day.

        Hope that helps clarify.

        SamFox

        • Michael, All the New Covenant is to Jew & gentile. Messiah came for the whole world, not only the Jews. John 3:16

          Yeshua’s body is made up of Jew & gentile. There is no dichotomy between Israel & the Body of Christ.

          We ALL are one new man in Christ. That also shoots down the ‘women can’t be ministers.’ thing. 🙂 As does

          Acts 2:17
          And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and your *daughters* shall prophesy…:-)

          Romans 8:14
          For *all* who are led by the Spirit of God are *sons* of God.

          Galatians 3:7
          Know and understand that it is [really] the *people* [who live] by faith who are [the true] *sons* of Abraham.

          Galatians 3:26
          For in Christ Jesus you are *all* sons of God through faith.

          1 Thessalonians 5:5
          For you are *all sons* of light and sons of the day;…

          So! WHY cannot a women be in ministry? 🙂 Because men are chauvinists? 🙂 Maybe… 🙂

          Or is it because
          Galatians 3 says
          [Amplified Bible (AMP) ]
          27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
          28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male [a]and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
          29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham’s Seed], then you are Abraham’s offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.

          In the marriage relationship the man is the head. But a Christian man who doesn’t consult with His Spirit filled Christian wife…let’s just say that man would not be a very wise Christian. 🙂

          Acts 21:9
          And he had four maiden daughters who had the gift of prophecy. 🙂

          Got off track a bit, but this may be helpful to some one browsing thorough here.

          In Yeshua’s love,

          SamFox

  • Ted

    my goodness the arogance of the rapture theory is horrifing ….. i have searched and searched scripture for many years to figuer out how i can be part of this so called rapture that every preacher ive ever met believes in and ive come up empty … the fact is there is no rapture God will take up the already dead martyrd in his name and the 144,000 isreal tribal members … everyone else will have to fight on earth against the words of the devil and his son …. so instead of trying to spin your delusion of im safe from the wrath of God, how about trying to help fellow christians keep the faith during the worst times of being a christian that we are facing, tribulation is gonna suck for christians but we need to stay prepared and strong that it is all part of Gods plan, oh and to all those not paying attention our fellow christians are falling for the muslim faith … we need to make it our duty to let them know the koran is the anti-christs and his father satans bible… remember satans goal is to be better then God if you read the koran its the bible with words changed and parables changed to fit with satans agenda… destroy God and his followers… us as christians need to stop this from happening to our brothers and sisters! may God bless us all, Amen

    • Read Revelations after asking God for wisdom and understanding in faith. The rapture will occur after Jesus’s return. Basically, it is post-tribulation. The elect on the earth at that time will be taken to heaven. The dead will remain dead because it will not be time for them to rise as yet. Everyone else will remain on earth and be given the choice to obey God or obey the antichrist, beast and false prophet. Those that do believe will not be raptured but will be taken on a sheet of fiery glass into heaven before the earth is destroyed. The 144,000 will be the only elect on earth for some time. There are also the two witnesses and those saints that will rule with Christ on earth. They all have their divine purpose of being on earth.

      • April, would you please post a scripture that says when Messiah returns/comes again/is revealed at His 2nd advent that He takes us to heaven?

        I have looked & looked. The closest I have come up with is that we shall ever be with the Lord. But that verse does not say where…

        I am looking for a verse that is absolutely clear, that it says right up front, a statement of it’s own, saying clearly we go to heaven at His 2nd advent. One that needs no ‘interpreting to mean’ or other ‘help’.

        Thanks.

        SamFox

  • I believed until recently that All would go through the Great Tribulation. However, after reading the Bible I cannot see this happening. One, because GOD waited until Lot and his Family were safely out of the way before he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Two, because GOD also waited for Noah and his family to be safely in the Ark before he released the Flood on the World. No where on the Bible does GOD release his wrath on his people. Thirdly, in Luke chapter 21 vs 25-28 parallells with Revelation chapter 6 vs 12-13. Then in Revelation Chapter 7 vs 9 highlights the “Rapture”. There is also a promise to those who keep the word of Patience: Revelation chapter 3 vs 10-11. The Bible also refers to the days of Noah in Matthew 24 vs 38-39… everything was normal to those on earth then, “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” Again in vs 40-41, It gives an image of normality not of wrath.. does it not? i cant see anyone marrying, eating or drinking as normal when the seals are broken and the other judgements are poured out on this earth. Their will be famines, no food, animals dying etc in those days. The bible also quotes that “One will be taken and the other one left” “In a twinkling of an eye” Another reason why I cant see True believers of Christ go through the Great Tribulation is because we would know the time frame of the Anti-christ.. we as readers of GOD’s Word will know the beginning of the 7 year peace treaty with Israel, then the breaking of it after three and a half years, then the events before and after this time. Jesus tells us we will not know when he is coming for us; Matthew 24 vs 42-45. i feel we are going through “The signs” that Jesus mentioned and he also said “Do not concern yourselves with these things as they must come to pass”. “Look up” Jesus said, watch for the signs in heaven. Read the Parable of the Ten Virgins and understand that 5 were taken because they were ready for the Bridegoom, the others were not! and they will go through GODs Wrath along with the non believers.. he warns them not to take the Mark of the Beast.

    • I think there was an incident that people went through that the Lord did not take them out and they were safe!
      At Sodom & Gamorah -one turned to look back and was turned to salt.

      There were almost all who mocked Noah and they all perished. Yes, those who listened to the Lord and the One who the Lord called to save his family were saved because of ONE! That was to full fill God’s plan.

      When Moses came to lead “His People out” – people died where blood had not been sprinkled. You were not saved just because you were a Jew or a Christian – you had to DO what the LORD required.

      Are we as Christians doing that? I think better to be prepared for the worst of times and prepare those whom you love and teach them before it is too late and they fall into temptation to take an easy way out. This cannot HURT anyone. We do ourselves a great dis-service when we don’t prepare for these things or believe what tickles our ears. Why debate these matters? It only points out to those who are potentially seeking, to call Christians hypocrits and not be drawn to the life giving love of Christ. Be sober or (prepared or alert) for your advesary, walks around like a ROARING Lion seeking whom he may devour. Just think on this!! In nature, does the lion roar and scare off his prey or does he stalk them in quiet? I believe this verse could mean that the ROAR is heard because we know the preditor but we do not see his evil… he appears to be something different…. maybe we even trust him…we listen to his words because he may be trying to scare us….or bully us …. or it may even be coming from our leaders in govenment or the churches. The Bible does warn us for a reason. We are also suppose to be ready with our lamps full of oil. As I write this, I pray the that the Lord will reveal to those who diligently seek HIM as HE holds the Key… My spirit really like Dirk’s words and I agree that it did not come off to me as he was angry. Maybe as one crying in the wilderness..

    • the rapture is post tribulation. You forget that we suffer through harsh circumstances right now. Even Jesus prayed to God to not take us out of the world but to strengthen us. The Christians of Revelation times will go through the tribulation but will not be inflicted with God’s punishments. The tribulation only refers to the evil that the antichrist will do and has nothing to do with God’s punishments.

    • Yeppers!

    • You are mistaken and confused my friend about the Warth of God. All the Elect Saints of the Great Tribulation period who are hounded, persecuted, ridiculed and killed for the Word of God and their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ are not suffering as a part of the Warth of God. They will be suffering from the Warth of Satan, the Warth of the Beast-666. A lot of people teach that this Great Tribulation period is the Warth of God come upon a wicked and unbelieving world, but they are totally wrong. It is the Warth of Satan because he is cast upon the earth and his time is short. (Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12) For it is Satan that will give power unto the Beaast-666 to make war against the Saints and to overcome them, that many will be killed. But, they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (this Lamb is our Lord Jesus), and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (You see what the scriptures say here, these saints have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb of God; these are not all Jewish believers nor Jews per say, because the Jews don’t as yet believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Although at the time of the end, one third of the Jews will call on and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The other two thirds of the Jews of the nation of Israel will be killed.)

    • Sam Fox

      amazing, You are telling us then that no can get saved after the ‘rapture’ because of all you said that you applied to the present day Christians. Wouldn’t all you said also have to apply to the so called ‘left behind’? After all, when the LB get saved, they would also be Christians, same as those ‘raptured’.

      Those verses don’t prove a pre trib rapture. They show that Poppa takes care of His own. Why don’t you use the story of Daniel, the 3 in the furnace, David & Goliath, David escaping King Saul, Moses in a reed basket on the river….Paul & Peter in prison, doors opened, chains fell off, Paul got a snake bite, Paul in the ocean, Jesus resurrected…

      Hey, just asking….:-D

      SamFox

  • There is another reason why I see the Rapture happen before the seals are broken. In Revelation 4 vs 1 : After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. As like those “Saints” that are raptured they will know what is about to happen when the first seal is broken.

  • Ag II Thessalonians 2:3, 4. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”
    The word ‘falling away’ is ‘departure’. It does not say ‘falling away (departure) from the faith’ as in Timothy, so we must see what departure he is talking about from the context. Then v1 you see it is the departure of the church from the earth in the rapture, then the antichrist will be revealed.
    The Greek word “apostasia” in 2 Thess. 2:3 also has the Greek article “the” in front of it, in the Greek text, which makes it, not a general “going away”, or “departure”, but “The Departure”, a special EVENT, that the reader is expected to already know about.

    In other words, the use of the article “the” with “apostasia” in 2 Thess. 2:3 indicates that Paul expects the Thessalonian Christians to already understand that this is the title of an event, and he expects them to already know what it means.

    Had the Apostle Paul already taught the Thessalonians about an “EVENT” that could be described as a “departure”, or “going away”? Absolutely, yes.

    Paul had already taught the Thessalonian Church about the EVENT, of the Catching Away and “Departure” of the Church in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

    In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember? When I was with you I taught you about these things?

    I don’t see where Paul taught them at all about “a falling away from the truth” in his first letter, but he taught them about the Rapture of the church in at least five passages in 1st Thessalonians:

    1. 1 Thess 1:10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
    2. 1 Thess 2:19 “For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?”

    3. 1 Thess 3:13 “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”

    4. 1 Thess 4:13 – 5:10:

    Verse 13 “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    We can clearly see that it is not the time when Jesus comes back to reign a thousand years x

    • amazinggrace, you misstate what the verse says. Not attacking, correcting in love as best I can.

      2 Thessalonians 2:

      Amplified Bible (AMP @ biblegteway.com)
      2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.

      3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

      4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.

      Church teaching has always taught that departure in this set of verses means a falling away from the faith.

      This I believe will be caused when we are faced with rejecting the mark or capitulating & accepting it.

      If a follower of Yeshua takes the mark they will forfeit their salvation & relationship with Jesus.

      9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, WHOEVER pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast’s] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,

      10 He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God’s indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [Emphasis in caps added.]

      Jesus did say that no one can pluck us from His hand. Very true!!

      BUT! He did not say we can’t be persuaded to walk away on our own.

      That is why Yeshua told us that we must endure to the end.

      I believe in once saved always saved to the extent that if we daily use our will to choose to follow Jesus & the Bible we are eternally secure.

      However, if we can be persuaded to walk away & become an apostate we still have the free will to do so. Our free will & ability to choose is not default taken away at salvation.

      Hebrews 6: [Amplified, from biblegateway.com]

      4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

      5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,

      6 If they then ‘deviate’ [I add, ‘depart from’] from the faith and [I add, this is what ‘depart from’ means, ] ‘turn away from their allegiance’–[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

      [I added ‘ ‘ ‘s around some words.]

      This is not about backsliding into sin, unless one backslides into apostasy. I back slid twice, last time about 20 years ago or more, very badly.

      BUT I never denied Jesus or asked Him to leave me nor did I want Him out of my life. I just wanted to have sex & other low life style sin stuff. When I got my fill of junk & finally yielded to the Holy spirit conviction I repented & plead for forgiveness, He took me back.

      I was very immature & had a higher “Christian rating” of my self than actually existed in my walk. But all things work together for good to them that love the Lord & are the called according to His purpose.

      If I had stayed faithful to the Lord & His word I would have been brought through my lust of the flesh without having to indulge it. Backsliding is VERY COSTLY! in ways you do not want to experience. Stay with Jesus. Cling to Him no matter what. That is what I have learned. The scars are not worth it.

      My mistake was going by my feelings….the devil brings thoughts & feelings to us @ temptation. We must learn to set them aside, deny our ‘self’, if they conflict with the Word. This is what we must do when/if faced with taking or rejecting the mark. At that time, satan will be strong, by Father’s allowance. It will be a final exam, so to speak. Reread the parable of the sower in the Amplified. You can find it at biblegateway.com & other good sites if you don’t own a copy. I would get a copy if I were you.

      I use mostly the Amplified, The New King James & the American Standard Version. Another good translation is The Scriptures.

      If you want to put faith in the pre-Trib Rapture teaching, beware. It is not Bible based. I think you can still be saved & believe in the PTR, but be ready to go further than that in your heart if needed. If I am wrong, you can’t lose. Just be ready to endure to the end, to the last day, the last trump. If we don’t go that far, fine by me! BUT if we do have to face the mark & you are not ready in Him to resist, even unto death as Yeshua Himself says…what then?

      We don’t need a ‘rapture’. I say we need a relationship, as strong as we can sow into, with Yeshua Messiah. If we walk with Him, learning & living His written Word & do not love our lives even unto death, then when He comes, returns or appears won’t matter. We will be individually prepared in Him to go as far as each of us are called by His foreknowledge to go until He calls us to Himself via death or in the air.

      I Thess. says we meet Him in the air. It does not say He takes us to heaven then. The “He takes us to heaven” idea that’s been attached TO the verse is not directly stated IN/BYthe verse. It is inferred to mean that, but that inference is not directly, openly, backed up any where else in srcipture.

      SamFox.

  • Ted

    amazinggrace2true, what bible are you reading my goodness people this is what im talking about you added that rapture line …. blasphemy this is total blasphemy … i can just imagine Jesus turning over all the tables in your church for selling such lies …. wow people challenge these things she or he just used revelations 4:1 and added to it … 4:1 SAYS then as i looked, i saw a door standing open in heaven and the same voice i had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. the voice said “come up here and i will show you what must happen after this” 2. And instantly i was in the spirit and i saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it. the one sitting on the throne was a brilliant as gemstones- like jasper and carnelian. and the glow of an emerald circled his throne like a rainbow. twenty-four thrones surrounded him, and twenty-four elders sat on them…… this is about the elders that endlessly lead worship and lay their crowns at jesus’s feet not the rapture so i say to you amazinggrace2true BLASPHEMY!!!

    • what rapture line did I add? I clearly stated that when the Bible was translated the translators put “Falling away” but in the original text in Greek it is “THE Falling away” have you a problem with the Truth? I ask you to go and research this like i have and then come back to me x

      • amazinggrace, still, THE falling away Paul warns of is from the faith. I found a confirmation in Clark’s Commentary regarding the 2 Thess verse.

        Re-read the parable of the sower. Some seed fell in rocks ect.

        When the mark comes, what kind of response will you have?

        PLEASE!! Be close enough to Jesus & know His word so that if you do not fly away before the mark you will have what it takes in Christ to refuse it!

        What can you lose by being ready? “Nothing!” comes to mind… 🙂

        The deception of the PTR will IMO cause a lot of Christians to stumble & fall away, sorta like what He said in the parable of the sower.

        SamFox

    • 1. 1 Thess 1:10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
      Is there going to be another Wrath to come?? The only Wrath I can clearly see is when Our LORD Jesus opens the seals which is the beginning of GODs Wrath.

      • amazing, Great verse to post. Not being ‘smart’ or such. It is a good verse.

        That verse shows us we are already delivered from the wrath of Father that is to come.

        Since we are already delivered from Poppa’s wrath, what have we to fear? That shows us that we don’t need a pre-trib rapture. We are safe now. That is…

        IF we endure to the end–don’t love our earthly life even if we die as a martyr, like Paul who was, in spite of his being killed was delivered safe to Father’s heavenly kingdom. Or like those in Heb. 11.

        The PTR teaching subtly has it’s adherents thinking the don’t have to worry about what lies on our door step & therefore don’t feel the need to make Christ, knowing His Word & building a strong relationship with Him as high a priority as it would [hopefully] other wise be if we knew or thought it possible we might be called upon to follow Jesus into death. That we would have to be prepared to go before kings & governors His sake.

        Take the 3 in the furnace for example. Lion’s den any one? Hebrews 11?

        The path of least resistance is always paved by deception…be sure your faith in the PTR won’t make you weak &/or under prepared. That is all I ask.

        SamFox

        • Well, stated, Sam. But I believe Grace missed the wrath of God. It is the last seal, not the first 6. You are right on with the falling away. The verses describe the falling away just below in that chapter. Also Rev. 13:8.

          Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    • No, my Brother Ted. It’s not Blasphemy to be mislead or to hold another, though incorrect, belief. You can be sincere about something, but sincerely wrong. Some peoples eyes have been blinded by the many years of Church teachings and indoctrination and can’t see anything different. Now, they are still good Christians and are bound for Heaven’s kingdom. Our Brother Paul said that there is only one foundation that you can lay and that foundation is the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified and raised from the dead, the hpoe of glory. And it is this hope in Jesus that resides in our hearts that cleanses and pruifies us. Now, we have to be careful how we build on this foundation. We can build with solid truth, in love rightly dividing the Word of God or we can build on it with certain error and suffer loss, but yet the soul shall be saved. Though others may err in some issues of doctrine, yet their belief and trust is in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior alone. It is this “Faith” that preserves them. We can disagree with one another on certain issues, but we must through love remain Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

      1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
      1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
      1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
      1 Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
      1 Cor 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
      1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

      • Sam Fox

        James R, were you ever in the House of Miracles in the mid late 60’s? Sorry to get off topic, but I knew a Jim Manning from there then. The name David Almond sound familiar? He was an elder sent from CA to Phoenix. I got saved in ’69 at the Phx house. Just curious…God bless.

        Your 1 Cor. 3:13 verse– What? Fire, not rapture? 😀

        SamFox

  • amazinggrace2true

    As I have asked EVERYONE on this thread, I ask you. Please answer these questions FROM THE BIBLE.

    If you cannot answer them, then any rapture EXCEPT a post trib rapture is impossible>>>

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation. Where is it?

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all! Where is it?

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib. Whereis it in the bible?

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib. Where is PROOF, please post the verses.

    NOW, once more, I ask ALL OF YOU, where is your proof? If you cannot provide it, then you are promoting a lie!

  • No where does GOD change. dirk I have clearly stated through Biblical passages that those who truely believe the Gospel of Christ are Raptured before the Wrath of the Lord. I have Posted the Proof. It is up to you whether you are one of those 5 virgins that are taken or one of the 5 that are left behind. You have not read my post properly or even given thought to it. It is up to you what you believe but do not ever put down a fellow believer…. And Ted, you have not even opened your eyes to my comments in what the Word of GOD does say. As with both you and Dirk, you clearly have a closed mind set when reading veryone elses comments. I once believed that we would all go through the rapture but I was lead to these verses.. through the guidence of the Holy Spirit … why?? Because No where ever does GOD Change and No where in his Word does he pour out wrath on “His People” another is when Jesus does come back on this Earth he comes back with “His Saints” how can he come back with his Saints when they are still sleeping in the Earth or they are still on this earth??? The answer is that the Rapture occurs before the Wrath of GOD. And Ted do not tell me im being Blasphemous, who are you to judge anyone? I do not judge you, and remember “you will be judge according to how you judge” READ what I have written, study it with an open mind not a closed heart in stubborness. i have raised some interesting points. GOD Bless and may the LORD be with us all x

    • You are mistaken and confused my friend about the Warth of God. All the Elect Saints of the Great Tribulation period who are hounded, persecuted, ridiculed and killed for the Word of God and their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ are not suffering as a part of the Warth of God. They will be suffering from the Warth of Satan, the Warth of the Beast-666. A lot of people teach that this Great Tribulation period is the Warth of God come upon a wicked and unbelieving world, but they are totally wrong. It is the Warth of Satan because he is cast upon the earth and his time is short. (Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12) For it is Satan that will give power unto the Beaast-666 to make war against the Saints and to overcome them, that many will be killed. But, they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (this Lamb is our Lord Jesus), and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (You see what the scriptures say here, these saints have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb of God; these are not all Jewish believers nor Jews per say, because the Jews don’t as yet believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Although at the time of the end, one third of the Jews will call on and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The other two thirds of the Jews of the nation of Israel will be killed.)
      Also, remember in Egypt in the Old Testiment how God protected all the Nation of Israel form the plagues in the Land of Goshen. He’s going to do it again for the Saints of the Great Tribulation period. Our God is a mighty God and able to save to the uttermost and nothing is too hard for him.

    • Amazingrace, do you have any direct statements from scripture to show there are any left behind at Jesus’ 2nd advent?

      Can you even show that Yeshua is coming 2 more times that equal one 2nd advent even though these 2 comings of Christ are 7 years apart?

      I want you to please post up DIRECT, on their face statements from the Book. No esigesis or inference. I want straight up statements from the Bible that do not need interpreting, overlaid meaning or adding to.

      Dirk, I & others have shown clearly from DIRECT statements that on their face show that a PTR is not possible because it is NOT DIRECTLY taught in the book.

      NO DOCTRINE or teaching that we follow as mainstream Bible teaching relies ONLY on esigesis or inference like the PTR teaching has to.

      I’ll make it easy. Show where the Book DIRECTLY says–

      We go to heaven at Yeshua’s 2nd coming, return or His revelation.

      There are ‘tribulation saints’.

      Jesus is coming twice more.

      There are those ‘left behind’ at the 1st half of the 2nd advent.

      The 144,000 become evangelists & have a great revival.

      Then show us how to know what verses apply to the 1st half of the 2nd advent & those that indicate the 2nd half of the 2nd coming.

      And

      Which verses apply to pre-trib saints & which belong to the ‘left behind’.

      I doubt I’ll be getting much back on all the above. Thanks any way. 🙂

      SamFox

    • Amzinggrace, you have posted not even ONE direct statement to back you up.

      You rely ENTIRELY on esigesis & inference. That’s NOT A GOOD WAY to teach an entire doctrine.

      God be with.

      SamFox

  • Ted

    listen i think maybe dirk and i are coming off wrong here …. this arguement id the main reason we r stuck at spreading the good news the “fear tactic” i think what dirk and i are saying is stop using this tactic it doesnt help and its very unbiblical… no amazinggrace2true you know what you did and i called you out on it you added to revelations 4… it says in the bible it is our duty to do so to fellow brothers and sisters my own brother who is a minister did that to me today as well and he agreed with what dirk and i are saying there is no pre or mid rapture … we differ on the end of the world thing where i think God is going to not destroy the earth he does … but rapture we agree is false to be pre or mid… anyways my point is that we need to teach and tell others about the love Jesus has for everyone not the hate notion of killing everyone that goes against him … Jesus died for everyone … now we still have the will to deny that but so does a drunk deny they have a problem do we show them hate or do we help them find the path… amazinggrace2true i can bet that you wouldnt even speak to me in person because im covered in tats and peircings and wear black and a chained wallet but if you looked closer you’d see my tats consist of things promoting christianity one of which says Jesus in english greek and hebrew writing but you wouldnt see that would you …. my point is set the hate and fear mongering aside and look at the bigger picture

    • Oh Ted x Please dont say I wouldnt even speak to you because of the way you look. ive had peircings, although no tattoos… but really freaky hair styles lol x i have a close friend, she is covered in tattoos and peircings… i grew up with Punk rockers and many diverse people and i loved them all. And No I “wouldnt see that” because I dont judge people by their appearence but how they treat me and whether they are of good heart and not heartless. It is you that seemed to have judged me. If i have offended you then I appoligise. GOD knows my heart…… even though we dont see eye to eye on the Rapture as with many, my intentions were to mearly put my thought and finding in comment. AS for the “Fear Factor” the only fear is for those without Christ for he is the Truth, the Life and the Way. For GOD does NOT change… as he said in the days of Noah and In the days of Sodom and Gamorrah….. Noah and Lot and their Families were saved. They did not go through GODs wrath… there is nowhere in the Bible that GOD faithful believers are subjected to GODs Wrath….. does it? Yes the World will judge believers… its happening now, and it will get more intense.. even in the West, this will test many.
      GOD bless x

    • to add, Ted you have not once quoted any scripture to back up that there is no rapture. i have taken all that I can out of GODs Word… as with Dirk at least he quoted scripture in evidence of his belief. Many Ministers believe like i do and many believe like you. why are you
      stuck at speading the Good News”? Why? if it is the Truth and the HolySpirit is with you then you just plant the seed of the Gospel it has nothing to do with the rapture… even if they ask, as they have asked me I would say it is not clear but there are many who believe differently and ask them to read the Word instead of being preached to and told what the end times mean… like you are doing to me, let them enjoy reading the Word or listening to the Bible and let the Holy Spirit Guide them not you or I x

  • In Reference to Dirk’s questions om Matthew 24 vs 29-31 x
    1. It reads like the rapture. Even if this passage were strictly and only speaking of the supernatural gathering together of the Jews carried one by one by Angels to another location, that alone is certainly similar to various rapture events such as happened to Philip in Acts 8:39-40 who was transported from place to place, and to Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11-12

    2. The parallel passage from the gospel of Mark 13:27 says they are gathered “from… earth to… heaven.” The rapture is a gathering of people into the air, 1 Thess 4:17.

    3. It is “A great sound of A trumpet” in Matthew and not necessarily “the great trumpet” of Isaiah 27:13. Why is Matthew more vague, saying “a trumpet” instead of “the great trumpet”? Is it because two events are in view? The point is that a trumpet sounding blast is a key element of the rapture mentioned in 1 Thess 4:16 “the trump of God” and 1 Cor 15:52, “at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound.”

    4. It mentions the son of man “coming in the clouds”, as does 1 Thess 4:17. “…caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…”

    5. Matthew 24 is filled with double references. These passages can easily be describing BOTH the pretribulation rapture, and the posttribulation gathering together of the Jews. I believe it is typical of the Lord to conceal things in prophecies like this. It hides things from unbelievers, and makes the study of his word glorious, bringing glory to God. (“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” –Prov 25:2)

    Furthermore, a third event might also be in view which is the posttribulation return from out of heaven of those who were previously raptured. The return of the saints from out of heaven following Jesus Christ is pictured in Revelation 19. The first reason for this idea is that Matthew writes they are gathered “from one end of heaven to the other” and not gathered from the earth as does Mark. The second reason is the “great trumpet”, because this is associated with the Day of Atonement, which should be fulfilled at the end of the tribulation with the defeat of Satan. The third reason might be that the two events, the gathering of the Jews from the earth, and the gathering of the saints from heaven, all together into Christ’s presence at his return, happens at the same time. If these two gatherings from the earth and heaven happen at once, it would make sense that these two events are blended together in scripture. Thus, the term “elect” can easily refer to both the Jews and to the previously raptured Christians.

    6. Matt 24:30 appears to be the rapture because of the mention of the sign, “the sign of the Son of man in heaven”. Those who deny the pretribulation rapture have challenged, “Where does the Bible ever describe two returns in one verse?”. Well, in Matt 24:30, the “son of man” is mentioned twice, first as a sign in heaven, and then, after the nations mourn, he is coming in the clouds. The pretribulation rapture would, indeed, be a sign for the nations.

    As an aside, if the rapture is “the sign of the Son of man in heaven”, then it supports the argument that Jesus remains in heaven at the rapture. This is an important point, because it refutes the argument from Acts 3:21 that Jesus cannot return before the “time of restitution of all things” which is supposed to be after the tribulation. This argument is refuted because Jesus remains in the sky, in heaven, at the rapture. (Sky and heaven are nearly interchangable terms in scripture.) Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    I wonder, if the sign of the son of man in heaven is not the rapture, then what else would it be? And there is no statement in Matt 24:30 that the three sequential events need happen simultaneously. There could easily be 7 years from the sign to the coming of Christ in glory. After all, there needs to be time for the nations to mourn, which would be the tribulation.

    Matthew 24:
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    This description in Matt 24:36-41 where people are living their lives as usual, is out of place with the description of how they will act after the beginning of the stellar signs and the Day of the Lord when the nations are mourning, as described in verses 29-31. The mourning in grief and lamenting seems most appropriate for the beginning of the tribulation, and anger is appropriate for the end.

    Thus, we have three descriptions of the emotional state of the nations, which represent three different times. Life as usual before the rapture at the start of the tribulation. Mourning after the rapture in the tribulation. And finally, anger at the end of the tribulation at Armageddon. This also shows that the description of Matt 24:29-31 is apt for the beginning of the great tribulation, at the start of the Day of the Lord.

    Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
    7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:
    8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Isaiah 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

    Amos 5:16 Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the LORD, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful of lamentation to wailing.

    Zephaniah 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
    11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.

    Joel 1:13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

    Thus, the emotional state of the nations may be a strong clue to what is being described here, which is the tribulation of the Day of the Lord.

    Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    The tribes of the earth mourning seems to most appropriately describe the start of the day of the Lord, just after the pretribulation rapture. This is long before the world has turned angry at Armageddon.

    9. They vs. You
    And there is another key word in this verse: THEY. It says “they shall see the Son of man”… Now, if seeing Christ return after the tribulation was the blessed hope of the believer, wouldn’t the appropriate word be YOU? Why the change, unless it signifes that faithful believers, YOU, are no longer there?

    Luke also contains the different words “they” and “you”, but also includes a phrase that might be a final warning to be especially ready, which suggests to be ready for the rapture.

    Luke 21:27 And then shall “they” see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up “your” heads; for “your” redemption draweth nigh.

    The question must be asked, why “didn’t” Jesus say in verse 27, “and then shall YOU see the Son of man coming”? The answer is that YOU would be behind Jesus, following after him as depicted in Rev 19. The armies that follow him out of heaven would include faithful believers such as YOU.

    The phrase “when these things begin to come to pass” indicates a pretribulation rapture before all these things come to pass. It does not say “after these things completely come to pass…” Nor does it say “when these things begin to come to pass, hide your heads, for you will have to endure tribulation for several years”. And a few verses later, Luke records one of the strongest pretribulation verses in the Bible:

    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    In order to escape the abomination of desolation, which is among “all these things that shall come to pass”, the rapture must be before the tribulation.

    God Bless x

    • You really need to pay close attention to these verses…
      Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
      Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
      Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
      Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
      Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
      Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
      Now read this verse…
      Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
      Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
      Verse 30 clearly states Let them grow both together until the harvest. The harvest is the end of the world. How can you stand behind the pre-trib rapture when our Lord clearly defined this.
      People are listening to the doctrine of men.
      Jesus said…
      Lk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
      Our spiritual leaders are taking Gods Word and twisting it so we can make Gods Word fit our lifestyle and not our lifestyle to fit Gods Word.
      May you Be Blessed in finding the truth!

  • Ted

    again i didnt judge you i called you out on you adding that rapture sentence to revelations 4 which speaks about a vital cornerstone of christian faith to be as the elders are towards Jesus lay our crowns at his feet and praise him eternaly … take off your back pack of woes and sorrows and tell him i can not do this please you do it and amazing thing is Jesus wants us to do that …. so you see by using revelations 4 for your pre trib rapture arguement you are taking away a vital teaching that God has for us … and to me thats blasphemy… and im pretty sure God doesnt like that since he says not to do that several times in the bible …. i did not say that to judge you but to make you aware of what you did but i must only tell you this twice and let God tell you the rest

    • Sam Fox

      Ted, from the Amplified I show WHEN crowns are given.

      2 Timothy 4:8
      [As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return).

      I added nothing to the verse but **’s for outlining the key for ‘when’ crowns are given. Later Rev. says crowns are all given back the Yeshua.

      Note that even the KJ says His “appearing” is when crowns are given.

      2 Timothy 4:8 King James Version (KJV)
      8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

      Even the ‘blessed hope’ verse loved by PTR enthusiasts used to ‘prove’/augment the rapture thing says

      Titus 2:13, Amplified.
      Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

      According to PTR teaching, those verses should say ‘comes’ or ‘at His coming’. PTR teaches that comes or coming means the pre trib rapture & appears, appearing means when He comes in judgment. I find it just a tad difficult to believe the Holy Spirit gave Paul the wrong words to share.

      SamFox

      • Sam Fox

        Cool! My use of the **’s turned into bold for emphasis. I like the change to the website! Thank you Geoffrey!!

        SamFox

      • KJV only please, thank you!

  • Ted

    Amen, brother wayde i wish i was more knowledgable in verses and where they were but at least i can memorize the meaning of Jesus truths … that was beautifully written and very helpful for me … in this blog and speaking with my brother who is a minister ive come to the real truths 1. there is no pre-rapture 2. there is a gathering of us all who believes in Jesus on the day of great harvest 3. the world will end and a new one that is in harmony with Gods word will begin. 4. we need to be teaching of Gods love then his wrath on the non-believers. … question, how many of you say i am saved from Gods wrath of the end of the world because i was born again and will be raptured when the end of the world comes? now how many of those people recieve eyes rolling and umm ok’s from the non-believers? i started this way 2 years ago and recieved nothing but negative reactions … then i wised up and stopped talking this way to try and help save others until i had studied more … and today i now say you should come to know the lord Jesus love for you for no matter what you do or say or think he loves you times are ruff and satan has easy way outs but Jesus has so much more for you if you just wait for him … Today as i spoke to a procliamed wiccan she said you know ive never heard it put that way my freind invited me to her church i told her idk but i think im gonna go now …. those words were the sweetest words to hear because it was not hers but Gods words and we all know Gods words are sweeter then honey i about started to sing our God is an Awesome God he reigns from heaven above…. but i figured i better quit while i was ahead and let God take over lol… i joke but seriousely folks the point im making is that when i stopped talking about destruction and hate and hell and evil and … well quilt tripping on a non-believer … i noticed a positive responce and Jesus taking the reigns after you say yehaw giddy up … he lets you watch him turn a non-believer into a brother or sister that has a heart after God

    • Brother Ted…as I read your post I became very concerned when you said you thought you might attend this church of the proclaimed wiccan woman. You need to be very cautious here my brother… for if she is proclaiming herself to be a wiccan and a christian she truly is not a child of God and has an unfamiliar spirit. Remember what scripture says…
      2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
      IMHO if she is a true christian she would never refer to herself as being a wiccan and would denounce this belief of the devil. Sounds to me like she is straddling the fence.
      2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
      This is the problem with todays churches for they allow corruption to enter into the church therefore corrupting the whole lump. A good example is the pre-trib rapture.
      Be not deceived my brother in the Lord for scripture says…
      2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
      2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
      2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
      May Gods light shine upon you in this matter and reveal the truth unto you!!!
      Next I would like for you to have this beautiful program that was given unto me which helps me in reference and study in Gods Word. This has many translations for those using other bibles than the KJV which I am impartial to. And is a free download.
      http://www.e-sword.net/
      Be Blessed

  • Ted

    oh no no no wayde im saying she used to be a wiccan ive been talking with her about God and she has denounced wicca and believes in Jesus and im not going to the four square church with her 1. she is a child of 18 2. i am a married man …. so no i was saying God touched her heart and she is on the road to know Jesus …

    • Ted…sorry for the misunderstanding of your message. Even though you did not clarify that she had denounced wicca. Praise God she is now a child of God!!! Keep her close and let her not fall into the docrine of men, by using the Word of God to reveal the fallacies of what many churches and people are teaching today.
      I hope you take a look at the program e-sword for it is a blessed tool to have.
      May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Be Blessed my brother!

  • Ted

    the other good one is biblegateway

    • Biblegateway is good. But I believe e-sword is a better program that downloads Gods Word on your computer.
      It has a Strongs reference, bible search, dictionary, topic notes, study notes and many other uses you may find applicable. And you do not have to go online to use it. I have seen programs for sale for as much as $50-$100 that do not even come close to it. Best of all it is free.
      Be Blessed

      • I made a comment about e-sword in my post having many translations. What I meant to say is it has many versions of the Bible. This program allows you to compare many of these versions side by side.
        Sorry for this error in my post.
        Be Blessed

  • I strongly suggest that any Christian wanting to decipher eschatology read E.W. Bulinger’s “Figures of Speech in the Bible,” or Milton Terry’s “Biblical Hermeneutics.” The “catching away” spoken of in 1 Thess has nothing to do with a bodily rise from the the earth into the heavens at all. And regardless of whether you buy into Scofield’s philosophy (really the 16 year old Scottish girl, Margaret McDonald’s , alleged vision of Rev: 4) of a future temporal Star Trek type lift off from the earth, it happened back in the first century! Daniel’s prophecy was unsealed by the John the revelator. The book of Revelation is about the revelation of Jesus Christ, not a yet future apocalyptic end of the earth and cosmos.

    • @Kevin…you said,” it happened back in the first century!”
      Would you care to explain this?

      and you said,” Daniel’s prophecy was unsealed by the John the revelator.”
      I would like to ask you how do you come to this conclusion? For scripture says..
      Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
      This verse clearly states” the time of the end.”
      John was banished to the Isle of Patmos by Emperor Domitian (A.D. 81 to 96). The time of the end was not in Johns time, but the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given unto him to write these things which he saw in a book and give it unto the churches which were in Asia.
      Please explain your statement.
      Be Blessed

    • Sam Fox

      Kevin, Margaret McDonald IS the source of today’s pre trib teaching. It is not ‘alleged’ at all. Look for the book The Incredible Cover Up by Dave McPherson . At the end of the book McDonald’s own handwritten account is found. I have a copy of the book that I loaned to a brother in Christ. Brother Dave went to Scotland, England & other countries researching the source of the PTR.

      John Darby took off with Margaret’s vision & formulated the 1st proof texting of the PTR. Darby then came to the USA in the mid 1830’s & gave the false teaching to Scoefield who put the false doctrine in his Bible commentary in a King James Bible.

      SamFox

      • Wrong. I was a Pretribber for 15 years before I ever heard of Darby or Macdonald. My friends Paul and John showed me the Pretribulation Rapture in the Bible.

  • I’m confused! There’s going to be a Revival near the end of time yeah? Is this going to be worldwide or just in certain countries? Has it happened yet? Can anyone answer my questions? Thanks.

    • @Allah’s Dead, Jesus Isn’t…could you explain what you mean by”a Revival near the end of time”. For I do not know where in scripture it says this. If you are refering to a “gathering” then I suggest you read Gods Word in post #34. Or read Matthew 13:24-42 in your own bible.
      As far as a Revival I do not see in scripture this happening for scripture says…
      2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
      2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
      2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
      2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
      2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

      and again,
      2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
      2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      and again,
      2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      We have taken Gods Word and fit it to our lifestyle instead of taking our lifestyle and being obedient
      to Gods Word.

      And if you are refering to a gathering (revival) worldwide or just in certain countries remember what scripture says…
      Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
      Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
      Remember again the parable of the wheat and tares.

      Be not confused my brother in the Lord, but search the scriptures for the truth in Gods Word. And may our Heavenly Father, through our Lord Jesus Christ, give you the understanding you seek.
      My prayers are with you.
      Be Blessed

    • 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
      2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      The above Scripture clearly shows a falling away, not a revival.

  • Thank you for that Wayde. I wasn’t trying to twist the scriptures to fit my own desires. I just thought…

    Thanks,
    God Bless.

    • @Allah’s Dead, Jesus Isn’t… Brother I do not think you are twisting Gods Word, just seeking the truth in His Word. As am I. The pre-trib rapture being taught in most churches cannot be backed by scripture. That is why I use Gods Word to prove this man made theory is not truth but false doctrine. To me, this is corruption. And if they are teaching this corruption, is it possible they are teaching more corruption? I pray that people who love Jesus with all their heart will search The Scriptures for the truth. For our Lord said…
      Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
      Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

      May you continue in your search for the truth!
      Be Blessed

  • @Wayde. It’s Sister, I’m not male! 🙂 But thank you for your comment.

    • Sorry Sister for my assumption.
      Be Blessed

  • Ted and Dirk have got it right – seriously and the New Jerusalem will be in Australia – if anything goes then!!! Honestly people. I pray that the love and mercy of zelohim open your eyes, remove the veil of blindness – the scriptures are clear – prepare now or be lost forever – there is no ore or mid trib – I hate the doctrines of men!!!!!!! They get people sloop confused and rubbish translations – get yourself an Aramaic English new testament – that will clear all things up!
    No disrespect intended but I hate hasatan and his constant schemes to break our Fathers heart by confusing people – if Dirk has an anger issue then we are all way too sensitive and not filled enough with the Ruach ha Kodesh – love is the greatest virtue of all – without love you cannot please Yahweh – He is Love
    Shalom

    • In the book of The Revelation we are told the New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ.
      Revelation 3:11-13
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one may rob you and deprive you of your crown
      12 He who overcomes (is victorious), I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of My God; he shall never be put out of it or go out of it, and I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which descends from My God out of heaven, and My own new name.

      Revelation 21
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      21 Then I saw a new [a]sky (heaven) and a new earth, for the former [b]sky and the former earth had passed away (vanished), and there no longer existed any sea.
      2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, all arrayed like a bride beautified and adorned for her husband;
      3 Then I heard a mighty voice from the throne and I perceived its distinct words, saying, See! The abode of God is with men, and He will live (encamp, tent) among them; and they shall be His people, and God shall personally be with them and be their God.

      Paul also had this knowledge:
      Ephesians 2:
      18 For it is through Him that we both [whether far off or near] now have an introduction (access) by one [Holy] Spirit to the Father [so that we are able to approach Him].
      19 Therefore you are no longer outsiders (exiles, migrants, and aliens, excluded from the rights of citizens), but you now share citizenship with the saints (God’s own people, consecrated and set apart for Himself); and you belong to God’s [own] household.
      20 You are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself the chief Cornerstone.
      21 In Him the whole structure is joined (bound, welded) together harmoniously, and it continues to rise (grow, increase) into a holy temple in the Lord [a sanctuary dedicated, consecrated, and sacred to the presence of the Lord].
      22 In Him [and in fellowship with one another] you yourselves also are being built up [into this structure] with the rest, to form a fixed abode (dwelling place) of God in (by, through) the Spirit.

      1 Corinthians 3:9
      For we are fellow workmen (joint promoters, laborers together) with and for God; you are God’s garden and vineyard and field under cultivation, [you are] God’s building.

      SamFox

  • Ahava heart,
    Please do not agree with me then add that a new jerusalem will be in australia. nothing in what i said had anything to do with that. In fact jerusalem is jerusalem and isreal is isreal both are and always be God’s holy land. your coments make me feel that you either are not a jew or christian and a islam believer in sending us far away and acomplishing this buy disrupting the faith of the one true God by clanging symbols of deciet or someone has done that to you. The Jews on the west bank that are causing a rift against christians are not the Jews of isreal they are fakes and a fisaude created by the unholy word of satan produced from the Koran. Gods Holy Land Is Isreal and Will always be Isreal. I know I am not apart of that land, but I also know that I am a brother that will be with the holy land people. In other words there is no scripture that says there is a different place on earth that is God’s holy land only one is and that is clearly stated in detail that it is Isreal which includes Jeruselam and no other peoples will be able to take this away from them ever. so I say to you :Ahava heart: do not take words to make your points and use decernment about the world around you listen to the whole thing not just what you want to hear. The Lord is never changing EVER! Do not worry about the land worry about being one with our lord jesus and everything becomes clear and a path to God is opened to us. Dont look back at the land it isnt your land it isnt my land it is the Isrealites Land and its all material in the end anyways. But it is however a place of refuge for those people alone everyone else has to believe and have faith in Jesus to find our refuge. I hope this all makes sence to you.
    God bless

    • @Ted…Remember my brother in the Lord that the Jews are not on our side when it comes to the gospel of Jesus Christ. For scripture says…
      Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
      They cannot see the truth because they are still spiritually blinded.
      Be Blessed

      • @Wayde That is Antisemitism.

        Romans 11:28 refers to the people who are blinded to their religions and materialistic ways.

        The Jews are still God’s people and still part of God’s plan.

        Churches like the Seventh Day Adventist, White Anglican, Southern Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, and Jehovah’s Witness have been teaching Replacement Theology saying that Israel is The Church, and Jerusalem is Heaven. They would also say that the Jews are of Satan.

        Ted has a good point that the Koran is Satan’s unholy work. And the Mahdi (Antichrist) will come unto the world’s scene along with the Prophet Jesus (False Prophet). The Prophet Jesus in Islam will say to the people “I didn’t died on the cross. While I was away I converted to Islam.’ and he will break all the crosses and force everyone to worship Allah. Don’t be fooled by this imposter when he appears. We must be faithful in the Real Jesus, even unto Martyrdom.

        The New Jerusalem be on New (Renovated) Earth.

        First, all of the damage that is harmed to the old earth will be cleansed by fire.

        The Two Witnesses (Moses & Elijah) will preach the gospel to the 144,000 messianic Jews. The 144,000 is not the Church, the SDA, Jehovah’s Witness, etc. It’s messianic Jews that will be protected from God’s Wrath and the Antichrist.

        Maranatha

        • @Josh…you said,” That is Antisemitism.” Romans 11:28 refers to the people who are blinded to their religions and materialistic ways.
          First, I am not anti-Semitic! As I do agree”The Jews are still God’s people and still part of God’s plan.”
          Second, this has to do with their unbelief(spiritual blindness) in the Messiah and the grafting in to the olive tree. And they were enemies of the Gospel of Christ as scripture says. For they were still teaching the Mosaic Law. For scripture says,
          Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
          Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
          Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
          Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
          Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
          Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
          Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
          Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
          Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
          Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
          Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
          Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
          Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

          And I do agree with Ted concerning the Quran. For I believe Islam is the Beast and Mohammad is the False Prophet spoken of in Revelation. Read the book, The False Prophet, in the link I posted below and verify what the book says through scripture. Show any fallacies.
          You said”The Two Witnesses (Moses & Elijah) will preach the gospel to the 144,000 messianic Jews. How do you scriptually come to the conclusion the two witnesses are Moses & Elijah? And the 144,000 are messianic Jews? Show me scripture verifying both of these statements please. For the Bible is its own dictionary.
          Be Blessed

  • This book was real helpful to me concerning the book of Daniel. And made more sense than anything most of our churches are teaching today.
    http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contents_tfp.htm
    May you Be Blessed in your search for the truth!

  • yes I see what you are trying to say Wayde but to go against the jews or call them my enemy is like saying your an enemy of God they might not think that Jesus is their messiah but they also know how important the true christian is in the eyes of God …. those anti-christians arent really jews watch how they are behaving and dressing its like they are playing dress up and their manners are very much like the palestinians…. anyways wether or not they believe in Jesus is up to them but the good book makes it very clear that they are our brothers and sisters… also i agree with wayde i find nothing concerning who the two witnesses are just that they are put on display and then raised from the dead …. ty for seeing that Islam is the religion of satan Wayde ive had alot of christians discredit that lately and im like wow ok …. and as of the “rapture” people I have a new question for you… What happend to your pre-trib rapture? by my calculations of the seals being broken and according to the rapture theory the pre-trib rapture should have happend already. so what happend? or are yall gonna say that oh it must happen mid-trib … lol… im sorry i shouldnt laugh at yall but its as bad as the big bang theory that everytime it gets discredited they are like oh well i must have done the math wrong ….

  • @Ted…This link I am posting is to a book called Islam In The End Times by Ellis Skolfield. I pray that you and any other Christian that sees Islam as a religion of satan takes the time to read it.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/18066650/Islam-Itet

    Be Blessed

  • My one solid reason for not believing in a pre-trib rapture is this: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”

    It will be pitch black! Then what? “the Son of Man, will appear in heaven…” Now, flashback — what did Jesus say about His coming? “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of man be.” No secret rapture. Why? “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.”
    “They (unbelievers) will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” And “they (angels) will gather together His elect (believers) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    Another thing — people like to say the church is no longer mentioned in Revelation and that proves a pre-trib rapture. Really? Why is there no mention of the church? Because churches will be banned, burned, razed and declared illegal. As they are in all Islam-dominated and communist regimes today. So what will God’s people do? Meet secretly — “where two or three are gathered in My name, there I AM in the midst of them.” They may be in prison, hiding in caves or living underground, but they (we) are still God’s people, but God will change their names to “elect.”
    Simple…pray, read, obey, believe and think! Prepare your hearts for the coming tribulation through a solid love relationship with Jesus, tell others the gospel and hold fast to Jesus! Do you hear the call? Answer!

    • Question: The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ – Is There a Difference?
      According to some Bible scholars, prophetic Scriptures seem to speak of two separate events—the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ.

      The Rapture will occur when Jesus Christ returns for his church. This is when all true believers in Christ will be taken from the earth by God into heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

      The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ returns with the church to defeat the antichrist, overthrow evil and then establish His thousand year reign (Revelation 19:11-16).
      Answer:

      In the study of Eschatology, these two events appear to be similar but separate. Both happen during the end times and both describe a return of Christ. Yet there are key differences. The following is a comparison of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, highlighting the key differences noted in Scripture.
      1) Meeting in the Air – Versus – Returning with Him
      In the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air.
      • 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
      For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (NIV)

      In the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord.
      • Revelation 19:14
      The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (NIV)
      2) Before Tribulation – Versus – After Tribulation
      The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation.
      • 1 Thessalonians 5:9
      • Revelation 3:10

      The Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation.
      • Revelation 6-19

  • For me personally, the greatest evidence that the overcoming church will be raptured prior to the tribulation can be summed up in two verses:

    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Jesus was clearly talking about the horrors of the tribulation hour that is coming upon the world. The very fact that He instructed us to pray that we may be accounted worthy to escape this tribulation, is evidence enough to me that we most assuredly can escape this terrible time (otherwise that verse makes no sense whatsoever).

    Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    This promise was specifically to the church of Philadelphia, but it applies to all that are overcomers by their faith. This “hour of temptation” indicates something much deeper than just the everyday trials of life that we all must endure as good soldiers of Christ. This is a “worldwide” hour of trouble that most assuredly is a reference to the tribulation period.

    The conclusion of the matter
    I realize that there are true Christians on both sides of the debate. When I first became a Christian, I held to the post-trib position myself. But after being instructed by my pastor who had spent hundreds and hundreds of hours researching bible prophecy and teaching it to others, I became convinced that the pre-trib rapture is the only position that reconciles all of the difficult passages of scripture. Now, fear of the unknown has been replaced with the expectancy of my blessed hope. I hope that after dilligent study of the scriptures, you will come to the same conclusion…….that there is a way of escape for true believers! As always, I’d like to leave you with one of my favorite passages about the rapture of the church!

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Maranatha!

    • Michael

      Praise God al angelo I also used to believe in the post trib rapture but after studying the Bible I now see that the pre trib rapture is the truth.

  • What I get from Scripture :
    intense tribulation
    utter darkness
    brilliant lightning
    Second and FINAL coming of Jesus Christ (“EVERY eye shall see Him”)
    trumpet blaring
    gathering of dead and alive Saints from all over the world aka “rapture”

    I do believe that watchful saints will not be caught unawares. This escape (pre-trib rapture delusion) mentality has been detrimental to the Western church! The chronology I just gave is from Jesus Christ Himself! Totally straightforward. Took seconds to grasp. The pre-trib doctrine is complicated and long-winded. Jesus’ doctrine is straightforward and simple. Unbelief makes things complicated.

    My communication is meant to be informative, not divisive. Again, I exhort every Christian to read the Word for him/herself. Deception and misunderstanding is RAMPANT, we must read and study for ourselves and hear the Holy Spirit’s leading.

    It is great to discuss the things of God. Helps us to grow and mature.

    The most important thing is Jesus is coming, let us all be ready with washed garments!

  • The pretrib rapture theory is a commonly taught end time myth. This false myth got it’s start in 1591 with a Jesuit priest who’s goal was to stop the reformers from teaching the Catholic church was the whore of Babylon. The theory evolved through time with the aid of Manuel de Lacunza, Edward Irving, Robert Norton, Margaret McDonald, John Darby and CI Scofield. C. I. Scofield decided to include the erroneous theory in the annotated Bible he was working on. Sound Bible scholars of the day (like A. J. Gordon, Charles R. Erdman and W.G. Morehead) tried to dissuade him. Three members of Scofield’s revision committee resigned over Scofield’s unswerving support for the view and it was incorporated into the Scofield Bible. Over the following decades the Scofield Bible became the most widely read Bible in the English language, resulting in a myth becoming a commonly taught false doctrine.

    There is much Scripture that proves this doctrine false but due to constraints of time and space I will only try to provide a brief but Bibllically sound rebuttal to the false doctrine.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
    the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
    heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
    shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the
    things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and
    the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,
    the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Notice the verse (1Cor15:52) clearly states that we are taken at the LAST trump. Therefore it would have to include the seven trumps of Revelation. Scripture does not lie so the trump of 1 Cor15:52 can’t come before the seventh trump of Revelation or it would not be the last. Either the trump of 1 Cor15:52 is the same trump as the seventh trump of Rev or it would have to come after. We can rule out the possibility that it comes after the seventh trump of Revelation because Revelation 10:6 & 7 tells us that when the trump sounds “that there should be time no longer” and “the mystery of God should be finished” So clearly according to Scripture (God’s inspired word) we are taken at the last trump and at the last trump there is time no longer and the mystery of God is finished. If the mystery of God is finished and there is time no longer how can the tribulation come after that? Besides doesn’t Matthew24:29-31 tell us the Lord returns and gathers the believers after the tribulation? A pretrib rapture would directly contradict the Scriptures quoted. Many churches today still promote the myth of a pretrib rapture but it is so counter to the plain statements of the Bible (particularly the last trump) that I can’t help but wonder how it has gained such widespread popularity.

    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their
    own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

  • I find it difficult to understand how those who believe in a pre trib rapture can sit there and believe they are correct when there are so many passages that totally DISPROVE a pre trib rapture and NOT ONE VERSE SAYS ANYTHING about the saved being gathered BEFORE the Rapture.

    How can you be so very deceived? You will have to explain to God why you did not love the truth.

    • Dirk, keep up the good work. You ARE telling the truth.

      The way I see it, many Christians who grab onto to the PTR are [subconsciously??] looking for a path of least resistance. They seem to be afraid to face the beast & it’s mark.

      The PTR takes a LOT less faith to follow than the verses that says ‘…and they loved not their lives unto the death. ” and “he that endures to the end shall be saved.”

      1.Matthew 10:22
      And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake, but he who perseveres and endures to the end will be saved [from spiritual disease and death in the world to come].

      2.Matthew 24:13
      But he who endures to the end will be saved.

      3.Mark 13:13
      And you will be hated and detested by everybody for My name’s sake, but he who patiently perseveres and endures to the end will be saved (made a partaker of the salvation by Christ, and delivered from spiritual death).

      The above verses are YESHUA’S own words!

      Some one above mentioned Noah & the Ark. The Ark never left the planet. Instead, it rode the waves that destroyed those who threatened to finish off the lineage that Yeshua Messiah would come through. Noah & his family were the only link to Messiah’s lineage left at that time. This is NOT a type of a rapture.

      For us today, the Ark is a type/prefigure of the body of Christ & our relationship with the Lord. [See Psalm 91 also.] If Father can open prison doors for Peter & Paul, He can do the same for us. If He protected the 3 in the fiery furnace, Daniel in the lion’s den, David from Saul, Moses from Pharaoh, bring Paul safe to His heavenly kingdom through martyrdom… is His hand now shortened that He cannot take care of us? Read Heb. chpt. 11.

      Pretrib believers, what makes you so special you won’t have to suffer during the trib? We are NOT appointed to Father’s wrath, so what’s to worry about? A PTR is a cop out. He is able. If Poppa allows us to die, so what? Is He not worth it?

      You need to be ready for these verses,

      Matthew 10:18
      And you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a witness to bear testimony before them and to the Gentiles (the nations). 19 But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious about how or what you are to speak; for what you are to say will be given you in that very hour and moment,
      20 For it is not you who are speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

      Mark 13:8-10
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines and calamities. This is but the beginning of the intolerable anguish and suffering [only the first of the birth pangs].
      9 But look to yourselves; for they will turn you over to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake as a testimony to them.
      10 And the good news (the Gospel) must first be preached to all nations.

      Luke 21:11-13
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      11 There will be mighty and violent earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences (plagues:]malignant and contagious or infectious epidemic diseases which are deadly and devastating); and there will be sights of terror and great signs from heaven.
      12 But previous to all this, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, turning you over to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be led away before kings and governors for My name’s sake.
      13 This will be a time (an opportunity) for you to bear testimony.

      We CANNOT be killed unless Father allows. Just ask bro. Job. 🙂 PTR people, build your relation ship with Father. Know His word!! NOT some one’s interpretation of it. Let what comes, come. Either HE IS GOD or He is not. You MUST be ready to go to the end.

      If it is the end of your life or the end of the age, you must be ready.

      SamFox

  • With all the various assumptions on this page and the blatant lies that are being proclaimed by those who preach a pre trib rapture, let us look at some of the classic “proofs” of the pre trib rapture theory.
    I Thes 4: 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

  • We seem to have a real problem all of a sudden. Right there in verse 4 we are told that several groups of people are raised from the dead. They include, those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and those who had NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST . . .

    It seems that this refers to everyone who has ever been a martyr for Christ Jesus all the way THROUGH to the END of the Tribulation, for it speaks of those who NEITHER RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS OR IN THEIR HANDS, but they were killed for that; and now they are alive.

    This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. That IS what the Bible says. But according to pre trib rapture theory, this happens BEFORE the trib. I don’t see that verse anywhere. In fact, this description is almost exactly the same as Jesus’s explanation of when He would return and the end of the world>>>
    Matt 24: 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    So far, all of these passages of the saints being gathered to the Lord are in accord with each other. There is not ONE REFERENCE to this happening before the Great Tribulation. Let’s look at one more passage.

  • I Cor 15: 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
    There is all that same information once more. The dead in Christ will rise FIRST and then we who remain will be changed.

  • This is the same event. There is NOT another gathering of the people of God to Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE FIRST RESURRECTION and it happens after the END of the Great Tribulation. There is not a pre trib gathering anywhere in the Bible. Each of these passages are describing the very same event or there is more than one first resurrection. That would mean there are at least THREE Resurrections. But the Bible says there are only TWO!

    Where is the other one in the Bible, folks? ALL of these verses are talking about the one and only FIRST RESURRECTION. So, where is the Rapture that happens BEFORE the Tribulation? If it is so very important, if it is REAL, if you got your doctrine from the Bible, it must be there; but it cannot be found. There is no rapture before the Tribulation. ALL Christians go through the Trib.

    And just so we know this, Jesus told us in a couple of other ways.

    He said that the last days would be just like the days of Noah. After Noah was sealed in the Ark, that VERY DAY the Floods came. How many people were saved from the Flood after Noah was sealed in the Ark?

    Jesus also said it would be like the days of Sodom. Well, let’s look at that as well. Lot is warned and made to quickly leave in the middle of the night, so much so that just Lot and his family with what they can carry leave. Lot’s wife is turned to a pillar of salt and a bunch of other people from Sodom were saved from the fire and brimstone God rained down on those cities, right?

    WRONG! Only Lot was able to be saved. So when God’s people are gathered, NO ONE ELSE WILL BE SAVED AFTERWARDS! There goes the whole idea of a bunch of people being saved AFTER the Rapture. Jesus taught against that idea as well.

  • It really seems that you have twisted and made the scriptures say something they have NEVER SAID to suit your own purposes, maybe you are making money from this idea. A lot of people will pay a lot of money to hear that they don’t have to change their lives and they will NOT have to face severe tribulation on this earth, but Jesus will rescue them out of all trouble. Except, that is NOT in the Bible.

    So, once more, you are promoting a LIE! Who is the FATHER OF LIES? Is it God or is it the devil? If you continue to promote this lie, then whose work are you doing? God’s or the devil’s?

    Jesus had some rather unpleasant things to say about those who did such things. So, are you going to repent, and recant this lie from satan about the pre trib rapture OR will you seal your fate and continue to promote the lie?

    The choice is yours!

    A bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
    {there appears to have been a problem posting part of this thread, I am sorry if there is confusion}

  • 3 sites I offer to learn TRUTH ON END TIMES AND RAPTURE that are well studied and Biblically sound; http://endtimepilgrim.org much to read and learn and does discuss Pre-Trib and Post Trib.
    http://www.askelm.com many articles that can be searched but most informative to start with, Book, THE RESTORING OF THE ORIGINAL BIBLE.

    HAPPY LEARNING AND AS WELL BEEN POSTING ON FB THIS SITE: http://believersministryprayerwarriors.ning.com/forum/topics/the-true-church-a-study-of-the

  • Thank you Charles.

    That appears to be a very well balanced address of the subject with a proper conclusion, being in absolute agreement with the scriptures.

    I was not able to read the whole thing of course, but skimming it and looking at the topic of Rapture was very telling.

    The only thing here is, WILL the people of this website and those who read these pages actually GO to that website and allow the LORD to show them HIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH?

    Considering not one of them has been able to answer the questions I have asked,, it is unlikely that they will listen here either. God bless!

    • admin

      @Dirk – NTEB’s position on the Pretribulation Rapture is very clear, concise and Biblical. If you choose to ignore the clear teachings of Scripture, that’s up to you. But NTEB will continue to teach the awesome, amazing, true doctrine of the Pre-Trib.

      • @admin…if scriputure is very clear and concise about your so called pre-trib rapture then why did our Lord say in the parable of the Wheat and Tares,
        Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
        Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

        In the verses above our Lord describes the end of the world in this parable. In the verses that follow our Lord explains the parable of the Wheat and Tares unto the disciples. Notice in verse 30 our Lord says “Let both grow together until the harvest.
        Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
        Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
        Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
        Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
        Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
        Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
        After Our Lord explained to the disciples this parable they understood.
        How can so many believers today be without understanding. Jesus clearly defines this, the wheat(children of God) grow together with the tares(children of the devil) till the harvest(end of the world). His angels reap and gather together tares to the fire, wheat to his barn.
        How can you not believe the words of our Lord?
        So is Jesus Christ our Lord a liar? Or is the doctrine that is being taught a lie?
        Beware of the doctrine of men. Study to shew thyself approved.

        Be Blessed

        • AMEN Wayde!

          When will you answer my questions ADMIN?

          I am willing to support you totally IF you can answer my questions. So, what is the problem since you say the Bible teaches a pre trib rapture?

          If it really does, then you should have no trouble answering those quesstions. Unless of course, the Bible DOES NOT Teach a pre or mid trib rapture but only one at the END of the Tribulation.

          Answer my questions below, if you can.

  • Dear Admin,

    If it is biblical, THEN ANSWER THE QUESTION YOU HAVE BEEN ASKED WITHOUT CONTRADICTING THE BIBLE.

    But you can’t. Because there is no biblical teaching of Pre trib rapture.

    I have repeatedly stated that if you will just answer those questions properly, then I will gladly admit my error. BUT you refuse to do the same if you cannot answer them. In fact, you refuse to even acknowlege those questions, just as every person who has responded on this thread has ignored them, because they cannot answer them.

    I know this. BUT your refusal to deal with this issue PROVES you are teaching a LIE! Not only that, but it proves you don’t care.

    Then you will have to stand before GOD and explain to Him and everyone who listened to you WHY you refused to speak the TRUTH. Your end will not be pleasant.

    According to the scriptures, those who have been given the truth, as you have thru my and others posts, and suppress that truth, which is EXACTLY what you are doing, will receive God’s WRATH!

    But you will probably ignore that passage as well.

  • Here are the questions you need to answer in order to PROVE a Pre Trib Rapture is Biblical.

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation. Where is it?

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all! Where is it?

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 First Resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20:1-4 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib. AND the passage in Revelation DOES refer to a resurrection occurring AFTER the End of the Tribulation for in that passage, it speaks of those who were beheaded for Christ AND of those who REFUSED the MARK of the Beast. So, where in the bible is another FIRST RESURRECTION?

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 20:1-4 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib. Where is PROOF, please post the verses.

    NOW, once more, I ask ALL OF YOU, where is your proof? If you cannot provide it, then you are promoting a lie!

    Can you answer these questions? I know you cannot. You say what you preach is biblical so PROVE that it is by answering the above questions.

    If you cannot answer these questions, then there is no biblical evidence of a pre trib rapture. It doesn’t matter how loud or how many times you say there is, the bible does NOT agree with you!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    • @Dirk…I agree with your scriptual reference to Matthew 24:29-31.
      Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
      Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
      Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
      Verse 29 clearly states AFTER THE TRIBULATION!
      Verse 31 clearly states GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT!
      What is sad is people want to hold on to the doctrine of men and not what the Word of God says.

      Scripture tells us this will be coming!

      2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      God loving people need to search the scriptures and quit listening to what is being taught by men.

      2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

      Be Blessed my brother in the Lord for your eyes are truly opened to the truth of His Word!

  • @Admin

    I sent you a private email Thursday April 7, 2011. In it I asked you if what you said above about a pre trib rapture is clear, consise and biblical then why do you refuse to answer my questions?

    I have received only a confirmation that you got an email from me. Since that time, you have said not a word.

    And I know you will not say a word, at least not in answer to these questions. Because if you attempt to answer these questions HONESTLY, you will have to admit that you are wrong and that there is no pre trib rapture according to the Bible.

    But you won’t do that, will you?

    Here are the questions once more. Does anyone who believes in a pre trib rapture have the courage to face them? NOPE

    Here are the questions you need to answer in order to PROVE a Pre Trib Rapture is Biblical.

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation. Where is it?

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all! Where is it?

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 First Resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20:1-4 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib. AND the passage in Revelation DOES refer to a resurrection occurring AFTER the End of the Tribulation for in that passage, it speaks of those who were beheaded for Christ AND of those who REFUSED the MARK of the Beast. So, where in the bible is another FIRST RESURRECTION?

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 20:1-4 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib. Where is PROOF, please post the verses.

    NOW, once more, I ask ALL OF YOU, where is your proof? If you cannot provide it, then you are promoting a lie!

    Can you answer these questions? I know you cannot. You say what you preach is biblical so PROVE that it is by answering the above questions.

    If you cannot answer these questions, then there is no biblical evidence of a pre trib rapture. It doesn’t matter how loud or how many times you say there is, the bible does NOT agree with you!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    PS: May God be the Judge as to who is being honest, open, and up front!

  • @Admin>>>>

    BY THE WAY

    If you do not answer my questions, then you are admitting that you are WRONG by not Proving what you say is True and biblical.

    I want to THANK YOU for agreeing with a Post Tribulation Rapture Publically!

    • admin

      Dirk, NTEB does not in any way agree with or condone the Mid -Trib or Post-Trib rapture scenario. We do, however, have better things to do with our time than to debate the obvious. Please purchase a KJV and actually read it sometime, thx. Oh, and here’s a clue – the rapture is described in Revelation 4:1,2. Enjoy.

      • @admin…you said,”the rapture is described in Revelation 4:1,2. Enjoy.”
        I have read these verses quite extensively and I am still not understanding where you might see the rapture in the following verses
        KJV
        Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
        Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

        “Come up hither” is what is spoken to John.
        I do not condemn you for your understanding of this scripture. But would you mind helping me to understand how you come to the conclusion that these verses refer to the rapture.

        Be Blessed

      • Dear Admin. I was saved in ’69, about a week after Thanksgiving. I ‘cut my teeth’ on the KJV. I find the Amplified to be a much better translation. I like the Amp., The Scriptures, NKJV & New English Standard.

        You did say,

        “@Dirk – NTEB’s position on the pretribulation Rapture is very clear, concise and Biblical. If you choose to ignore the clear teachings of Scripture, that’s up to you. But NTEB will continue to teach the awesome, amazing, true doctrine of the Pre-Trib.”

        Your reference to Rev. where John is called up is not a proof of a Church wide Pre Trib Rapture. It only speaks of John. John, by the way was not facing a tribulation.

        Where is ONE “clear teachings of Scripture” you can provide? All I have seen for Biblical proof for the PTR are verses based on Eisegesises.

        After reading John 17 & Eph. 2:15 how is possible for the PTR teaching to say there is a dichotomy between the Church & Israel?

        If there is a pre trib R, then was Jesus wrong when He said we must endure till the end? No one I know of says the PTR is the end.

        How about what the Book says about ‘and they loved not their life unto death’?

        How does the 7th trump fit the PTR teaching? The one Paul calls the last trump? How does the “let them grow together until harvest” verse fit? That is where Jesus says the harvest is the end of the age as He explains the parable of the wheat & tares.

        Why does the verse used to say the blessed hope of the church is the rapture when the verse itself says this happens at His ‘appearing’ instead of His ‘coming’? “Coming’ is said by the PTR teaching to be the rapture & His glorious ‘appearing’ is supposed to be when He comes the 2nd time in judgment to complete His so called 2 stage 2nd advent.

        Where does even the KJV call any saint in Revelation a ‘tribulation saint’? Where are the original language modifiers that can give the term ‘tribulation saints’ credence?

        I felt I should reply for the benefit of those who will come to read this thread later. I do not mean this as an attack.

        Thanks.

        SamFox

  • THAT is your PROOF??????????

    I am not asking for a debate. I asked you 4 simple questions which IF WHAT YOU CLAIM IS TRUE you should have no trouble answering. Obviously you have admittted that you cannot answer those questions

    Therefore, even though you state that you do not agree with anything but a pre trib rapture, You lack of answering those questions PROVE you are LYING.

    No Liar will inherit The Kingdom of God.

    All you have done is say, WE ARE RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG and you have not offered one bit of proof except verses taken out of context.

    You are once more admitting that you are LYING and that you cannot answer my questions.

    Thank you for telling EVERYONE who has a brain and can read these words that you are a liar and can offer no proof as the scriptures tell you to do!

    And, ADMIN, I have used the KJV above and still you have not answered the questions. The KJV proves you are still lying!

  • Dirk…all of what you have asked has been answered,..mostly by amazinggrace2true. I also have much to add, regarding the 24 elders and what exactly happens to the 144,000. Also, your comment that NONE will be saved after the 2nd coming, and the end of the tribulation, isn’t true. Many will choose to follow Jesus in the millenium..and will be saved. However..before I do post my next blog, will you do me a favor..and stop calling everyone a liar? Stop placing yourself on a pedestal of holier than thou knowledge. Now..if you will agree to come back down to earth…I will proceed with my next blog. Agreed?

    • Dave,
      All that amazinggrace2true ha answered has been CONJECTURE.

      He totally ignored THis portion of II Thes 2>>>>

      2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
      2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
      2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

      What are we NOT to allow ANYONE to deceive us about? paul tells us in verse 3 that we are not to allow ANYONE to deceive us ABOUT THAT DAY.

      What Day? The DAY of the Lord and OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM. That is the DAY Paul is talking about in verse 3. That is the Day that WILL NOT COME UNTIL AFTER the Man of Sin is revealed. and declares himself to be God in the Temple of God.

      Rev 4 being a rapture is PURE CONJECTURE, the Bible does NOT say this.

      How many times must I ask for a biblical reference for ANOTHER GATHERING of God’s people besides Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 20:1-4?

      NO ANSWERS AT ALL. An awful lot of man’s opinions, conjecture, and pre-conceived notions and ideas that want to believe in a rapture before the Tribulation starts, BUT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THIS.

      It is only wishful thinking on your part. You are basing a doctrine on your ideas, on conjecture and preconceived notion and NOT on what the scriptures say.

      In fact, if a person were NOT told about a pre trib rapture and they read the bible for th efirst time, THEY WOULD NEVER COME AWAY FROM THAT READING BELIEVING IN A PRE TRIB RAPTURE.

      Instead, they would believe in a POST TRIB RAPTURE.

      WHY? Because THAT is what the Bible says!

      Admin, and amazinggrace2true and Dave and whoever else have NOT ANSWERED THE 4 QUESTIONS USING THE SCRIPTURES.
      Oh yo umay have answered the questions as you see fit but you did not answer the questions using the scriptures nor correctly. In other words, you have all LIED.

      Now, I am not judging you. THis is an obvious FACT just by reading what has been said.

      And what is worse, you are all blind to your duplicity!

      a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • NOT ONE ANSWER, NONE.

    WHere is the other FIRST RESURRECTION in the Bible? NO ANSWER

    What about II thes 2:1-4 that says the ANTICHRIST MUST be revealed and declare himself to be God in the Temple of GOD BEFORE we are gathered to the Lord?

    NO ANSWER

    NOT ONE SINGLE ANSWER. YOU are a liar!

  • it is beyond belief that all of these people are arguing about ancient israelite myths in the year 2011. gee, i wonder if we will ever find noah’s ark, the ark of the covenant, the ten commandments tablets or the trojan horse or jason’s ship the argo??get with it folks: ITS MYTHOLOGY!!!!!

  • Let us look at some MORE evidence that a pre trib rapture is NOT POSSIBLE>>>

    Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
    Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    So, why did not Jesus correct Mary? Mary said the resurrection would be on the LAST DAY, but a pre trib rapture is not the LAST DAY.

    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Is this NOT a picture of the Rapture you pre tribbers speak of? YET, we are told this happens ON THE LAST DAY.

    Oh, and what happened to the SECRET, SILENT, COMING AS A THIEF RAPTURE? The above description is NOT SILENT AT ALL. Everyone will see it and HEAR IT!

    Maybe you are assuming some really wrong things because some people have told you this is the way it is to be.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Here is THE Description of the First Resurrection. Who is raised up in this resurrection?

    Why, it is all of those who were KILLED in Christ, beheaded in Christ and did not take the MARK OF THE BEAST. These are those who lived and were killed DURING THE TRIBULATION. AND WHEN does this FIRST RESURRECTION TAKE PLACE?

    Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    It appears to take place AFTER JESUS RETURNS TO THE EARTH AND PUTS SATAN IN PRISON in the bottomless pit! But THAT is AFTER THE WHOLE GREAT TRIBULATION!

    So where is the OTHER First Resurrection?

    Where does the Bible say that the First Resurrection comes in at least 2 parts or sections?

    WHERE? Show me in the Bible.

    If you cannot do this, IT DOES NOT HAPPEN!

    That means a pre trib rapture is a false doctrine!

    Come on saints, GET HONEST!

    Do you want to be DECEVED FOREVER???? Are you going to continue to allow people like those who operate this website THINK FOR YOU and deceive you?

    Are you going to let them make money off of you so they can line their pockets like so many of these prosperity preachers do?

    When will you stop listening to MEN and start believing what the Bible actually says?

    I wish I could help you see HIS TRUTH.

    Oh and ADMIN, don’t come back here and say you believe in a pre trib rapture without answering the questions I have asked. Once more, all you have done is say

    WE ARE RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG, THIS IS OUR BALL AND YOU CAN’T PLAY!

    And I hope we all can see how very childish admin is!

    May we ALL stop listening to me. DO NOT EVEN LISTEN TO ME!

    But DO listen to what the BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS. DO not let any man tell you what the Bible means. Ask God Himself and do not TRUST YOURSELF EITHER!

    TRUST GOD ALONE!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Pardon, a slight error in my typing>>>

    May we ALL stop listening to MEN!. DO NOT EVEN LISTEN TO ME!

    But DO listen to what the BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS. DO not let any man tell you what the Bible means. Ask God Himself and do not TRUST YOURSELF EITHER!

    TRUST GOD ALONE!

    @admin, when is the first resurrection?

    That is the same time we are gathered to the Lord!

  • How very sad it is that people who claim to follow Christ Jesus refuse to lay down their lives, DENY themselves, take up their cross and Follow Him in the same footsteps He walked in.

    Instead, they are full of pride, refusing to admit they are wrong. So they do whatever they can to discredit those who bring the truth to them so they do not have to admit their error.

    They make all sorts of claims, YET offer not one bit of evidence that what they say is correct.

    There are a lot of people who disagree with me. That is fine. They will have to stand before God and explain why they refused to believe and LOVE THE TRUTH instead of a LIE!

    Not one person, not the Admin. not this website has been able to answer the questions I have asked. They cannot, yet they claim they are correct as though their continually saying that will make what they say the truth.

    No amount of argument will ever cause a chicken to become a dog. No amount of bravado will ever make a tree into a rose bush.

    AND NO amount of words, of arguing, of accusing, of lifting yourself above others, no amount of pride and arrogance no amount of twisting of the scriptures to suit your own purposes will EVER make a pre trib rapture a reality when God says it will not happen until AFTER THE END OF THE TRIBULATION!

    You offer no evidence at all.

    I have repeatedly asked for answers and all I have gotten is conjecture, twisting of the scriptures, assumptions, and accusations. Not one bit of evidence and not one single answer to the questions I have asked.

    By your silence, you have admitted you have no answers.

    By your silence, you admit you are in error.

    By your silence, you admit you are lying.

    By your silence, you admit you cannot offer proof or evidence of why you believe what you believe in the light of the scriptures that have been posted against you.

    Yes, I know what you think, you have made that abundantly clear. But your opinion means absolutely nothing in the LIGHT of the Bible. You have no leg to stand on. There are no verses that support you UNLESS you take them out of context or you are honest about what they actually state.

    At best, all you have is a hypothesis without one shred of evidence to support you and you refuse to let go of your hypothesis because you are UNWILLING to admit your error.

    That shows a great deal of pride and arrogance and in fact, it shows how closely you are related to the Pharisees; for they did the very same things you are doing.

    You will have to answer for all of those you have led astray. I must assume that you do not really believe the Bible when it tells you that teachers are responsible for those they teach and that GOD holds you accountable.

    You have been given chance after chance to repent and you refuse to do so. You are unwilling to even look at the possibility that you could be wrong, you just give me all the old standby answers and do not even pay attention to what has been said.

    You have not really read the posts against a pre trib rapture ofr if you did, HONESTLY, you would recognize that you have offered nothing except hot air.

    Jesus spoke of those who teach young ones falsehoods. And He said it would be FAR BETTER if you had NEVER been born.

    It appears the punishment for doing what you have done is VERY SEVERE and you could care less.

    You have far too much of yourself invested in a pre trib rapture to ever admit your are wrong. That is because you rely on you and do not rely on God.

    That is also very sad. And it is also a great crime to attempt to steal that glory for yourself. GOD hates that sin. And because you believe you can “FIGURE IT FOR YOURSELF” that is what you have done as well.

    The Bible and God does not agree with you in several ways. Perhaps, if you really repent, and make amends for all of your pride and arrogance, and PUBLICALLY tell everyone you were wrong, that you had been deceived through various means to believe in a pre trib rapture and begin to publish HIS TRUTH, then perhaps He will forgive you.

    But if you do not, these sins are on your own head; and you have been warned. You have no excuse. You are now RESPONSIBLE for the TRUTH even though you may not believe it, accept it or receive it as truth.

    God holds you responsible. I do hope and pray you will recant proclaiming this lie from satan, but I have been told you will not. You will hold tightly to your beliefs even though there is NOT ONE SHRED of evidence to support you. You will refuse to let it go, because you have so much of your time and effort invested in it.

    The only trouble is, Christianity is by FAITH and NOT by works. You works are no different than filthy rags to God; but that is what you are hoping everything on, your efforts to figure out His truth.

    If you admit your error, you may indeed lose your standing in the community in which you fellowship. You may be rejected by man as being unlvoing, unkind, uncaring, a heretic, etc. BUT you will not stand in front of any of them on the last day.

    On the LAST DAY, you will have to stand in front of HIM from whom the Bible had it’s origins and you will have to say that you BELIEVED A LIE instead of HIS TRUTH and not only that, but you proclaimed that lie even though you were warned to repent from it. And you will hang your head in shame. At best, you will lose your reward.

    At worst, well, II Thes 2 does say that those who do not love the truth will go to perdition. IT is not my place to say, but that IS what the Bible says. Since you are violating what is in the Bible, you will have to place yourself in His hands.

    It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. That also, is what the Bible says. I remind you because you do not base very much of what you believe on the Bible, but only of human reasoning and conjecture (and the lies of demons)

    I have asked you questions and you have accused me.

    I told you clearly and truthfully that IF you could not answer those questions using the scriptures, then what you are teaching is a lie. NOTICE, you did not answer those questions with anything except conjecture NEVER with the Bible.

    SInce you did not, and in reality since you cannot, what you are teaching IS a lie NO MATTER HOW many times you say it is the truth or accuse me, you have proven nothing because you refuse to deal with the TRUTH of the Bible. All you have done is prove you do the same work as the assuser of the brethren and you have promoted lies. Who is the Father of lies?

    So, you can come back and say all sorts of things against me; you can ignore me, you may even provide “PROOF” that I am judging you.

    But you still cannot answer those questions, not truthfully. And that is what sticks in your craw. And that is part of the judgment you will face when you stand before the Lord of Glory.

    REMEMBER THIS>>>>> YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

    You no longer have any excuse. As Jesus said, except you repent, you will likewise perish!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    • Dirk, jack van impe can give you the answer regarding the pre trib rapture that I can not. He even has a verse that says there is a crown at stake here. I am just a soul winner that leaves the debates to you experts. I have e mailed jack van impe and have had replies as well as phone calls from him. He will back everything with scripture I can guarantee that much. 3 J0HN 1:2 my friend……

      • Daniel

        Van Impe CANNOT answer those questions. NO ONE CAN because there is NO BIBLICAL ANSWER FOR THEM!

        The Bible does not contradict itself and to have answers to those questions would contradict the Bible.

        How sad that you cling to such a lie rather than embrace HIS TRUTH!

        Still no answers. Daniel., admin won’t even try because they KNOW there is no answer in the Bible for those questions. But if they acknowledged that, then they would have to admit they are in error.

        Van Impe would either give NO ANSWER or say a bunch of stuff using many words and STILL not answer the questions.
        How sad for you all!

        • No sadness here, God bless you Dirk, I gotta go tell someone about Jesus…

          • AND STILL, all of you disobey Jesus, do not pay any attention to the WARNINGS He and Paul both made that we not be deceivd about this, and, you still have no answers for the questions I have asked.

            It should give you GREAT PAUSE that you cannot find any verses of scripture that answer the questions I have asked, BECAUSE those questions contradict the very doctrine you all claim is simple, straight forward and CLEAR in the Bible.

            So WHY is it so very difficult for ANY of you, INCLUDING THE ADMIN, to find scriptural answers for the questions I have asked?

            WHY?

            According to most here, this is what th eBible teaches. Yet, I have posted verses that absolutely CONTRADICT this doctrine of a pre trib rapture.

            Therefore, if you cannot answer those questions, if the Bible has not direct answer to those questions then you are believing a LIE and you are PREACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL!

            Paul said whoever preaches another gospel will be accursed.

            If someone asked me similar questions about some doctrine I believed, I would IMMEDIATELY seek the answers, because I do not want to lead ANYONE astray. WHY?

            Because Jesus said IF we do lead people astray, then we will be held RESPONSIBLE for those people when we stand before Him and are JUDGED for the works we have done in the body!

            BUT, if you are content with your situation, EVEN THOUGH NONE of you have scriptural answers, that is between you and God and YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE AN ACOUNT, (and be punished) for ALL of those you have led astray!

            REMEMBER THIS WELL. for you have indeed been warned! You will NOT have any defense to stand on when you go before the Lord.

            You may list all the things you have done BUT JESUS WILL SAY, depart you workers of iniquity! And you will be sent awy from His presence!

          • Hey brother Dustin, the book is called THE 1ST AND 2ND THESSALONIANS COMMENTARY, THE HOPE OF CHRIST’S RETURN. One of my favorite books in my library. See you soon in the air because we are not appointed to wrath and the restrainer must first be removed, all the signs we see mean it won’t be long. We are chosen for this time and place brother! FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT!

  • IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIB RAPTURE ONE OF TWO THINGS WILL HAPPEN TO YOU, ONE, YOU WILL BE LEFT BEHIND OR TWO, YOU WILL FIGURE IT OUT ON THE WAY UP AND MISS A CROWN. CHECK OUT THE TWENTY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING IN THE BOOK THE HOPE OF CHRIST’S RETURN BY MAL COUCH. I SHARED THIS BOOK WITH A SKEPTIC AND THEY WERE SILENCED WITH NO MORE BIBLICAL LEG TO STAND ON. I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE JESUS AND APOSTLE PAUL. AND WHEN MYSELF AND MILLIONS ARE GONE BEFORE THE TRIB THE ALIENS DID NOT TAKE US JESUS DID! AMEN!!!

    • Dustin,

      Answer the questions I have asked. If you cannot answer those questions a pre trib rapture is impossible!

    • Sam Fox

      Dustin, miss a crown? Do you know when crowns will be given out? Here. let me give you the verse as I quote Paul, one of those you say you choose to believe.

      2 Timothy 4:8 Amplified

      [As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return).

      Hmmm, ‘at His appearing…” is here equated with His return, one & the same. Why doesn’t say ‘at His coming.’ ?

      2 Timothy 4:8King James Version (KJV)

      8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

      Hmm, KJV also says ‘His appearing.’ rather than His coming.

      SamFox

  • You see Dustin,

    Why should I bother reading something that YOU tell me is right when NOT ONE OF YOU PRE TRIBBERS can answer 4 simple little scriptural questions?

    It is NOT that I don’t believe in a rep trib rapture. As I have stated before, that is where I did start. BUT THEN GOD apprehended me. He gave me these questions to ask people just like you and the admin here.

    The funny thing is, you can’t answer those questions.

    Everyone will be left behind because there is not going to be a pre trib rapture. IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE!

    That is what I know. If you believe different, you may even take the mark of the Beast because you “know” you will not be here when that happens.

    You have shared nothing. Because all you can share is supposition and conjecture. You have no scriptural evidence of the pre trib rapture that agrees with the rest of the Bible.

    You have offered NOTHING. Take your book and find the answers to my questions and post those answer here. But you won’t, because you cannot. Those answers do not exist in the Bible. That means a PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS IMPOSSIBLE!

    There is no difference between the rapture and the second coming, except in your mind. It does not exist in the Bible!

    You may continue to believe what you do, but KNOW THIS, you have NO SOLID SCRIPTURAL STAND for believing in a pre trib rapture. You are believing man’s (and demon’s) doctrines!

    And until you are able to answer the 4 questions I have asked with passages from the Bible without taking anything out of context, you have not one shred of evidence.

    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!


  • Daniel:

    Hey brother Dustin, the book is called THE 1ST AND 2ND THESSALONIANS COMMENTARY, THE HOPE OF CHRIST’S RETURN. One of my favorite books in my library. See you soon in the air because we are not appointed to wrath and the restrainer must first be removed, all the signs we see mean it won’t be long. We are chosen for this time and place brother! FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT!

  • Daniel,

    You do not read II Thes very well. It says PLAINLY in Chapter 2 that the CHURCH WILL NOT BE GATHERED TO THE LORD PRIOR TO THE REVEALING OF THE ANTICHRIST AND HIM DECLARING HIMSELF TO BE GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD!

    So, how can you be “raotured” before that since it contradicts the Bible?

    NONE of you have answered those questions yet, so until you do, all you are doing is blowing hot air with NO BASIS for your belief except you say so!

    But the Bible says different and you contradict it!

    I think I will believe the Bible and not you!

  • I see that NO ONE can answer these questions.

    Oh you all claim that the Bible teaches a PRE TRIB RAPTURE and that it is clear and consise. BUT when I ask to give a scriptural reason for your belief

    YOU CANNOT DO IT!

    All you can do is make claims with NO FOUNDATION. NO SUBSTANCE!

    NOT ONE PERSON HAS BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I HAVE ASKED.

    WHY? Why can’t you do it? Are you afraid? If the Bible really teaches a pre trib rapture there is no to be afraid of.

    UNLESS of course, you cannot find ANY Scriptural response to my questions. THen that would indeed PROVE the pre trib rapture is FALSE

    But NONE of you are willing to admit your error. You would rather cling to a lie than ever admit you are wrong.

    SO, you will continue to claim and proclaim a pre trib rapture even though you have NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that does not contradict the rest of the Bible.

    If that is indeed the case, then you are KNOWINGLY Preaching a LIE and the Woes of the Pharisees comes upon your heads.

    If you ignore me, which is what you all seem to want to do, you do not change HIS TRUTH nor do you make a pre trib rapture real just because you ignore the questions.

    That is sticking your head in the sand so you don’t see the light.

    SO, if indeed you do not answer my questions, YOU ARE SAYING YOU KNOW YOU CANNOT PROVIDE THE ANSWERS AND YOU WANT TO BE DECEIVED!

    You are admitting you are preaching a LIE!

    Do not come back and claim once more that you are only saying the truth. PROVE IT. Or all you are doing is SPOUTING LIES just like satan!

  • interesting that as I have read the thread that what i regard as the true followers of Christ have tried to help Dirk and not argue with him.

  • POWHATAN NATIVE AMERICAN FEDERAL TRIBAL GOVERNMENT SERVICE-AR MS: 2611-MIB, POWHATAN HISTORICAL FEDERAL UNION OF 70 TRIBES.

    The Nation of England your new killer of the Jews is here and alive today As Yahweh’s very Holy Prophet I see The new King of England came up who is your new “Hitler” of Old, who is the killer of the “Jews”, and he is “Sir. William The Son of Dina and Charles of England, Sir. Williams has taken the “666” Mark implant or The Computer Micro-Chip on his right hand of:
    “The Next Real Anti-Christ” to The Throne of England”
    (From The House of Windsor, Tribe of Dan)
    The Possible New Last Days Anti-Christ of The Middle East:

    The Mother Christened Diana Frances, the new arrival was the third daughter of Edward John Spencer, Viscount Althrop and Frances Ruth Burke-Roche, the daughter of Maurice, Baron Fermoy and the Scottish Ruth Sylvia Gill.
    THERE IS NO SALVATION IN CHRIST JESUS BEING MICRO CHIPPED
    (DATE LINE JUNE 21-26 2012)

    We want you to know that Princess Diana (July 1, 1961-1997)’s The Husband of Charles Two Sons Before her Death both of her Children Has Been “Microchiped” with the “666” Computer ID Mark with GPS to locate them at any time in this world has been done so Many years ago and one of them may be the next King of England, and New Anit-Christ being 30 Years Old on June 21, 2010 very soon and is some thing to watch out for Namely Prince William Arthur Phillip Louis DOB June 21, 1982 and Prince Henry Charles Albert David DOB September 15, 1984.
    2. I Believe Prince William shall shall become the Worlds New Anti-Christ Ruling at the EU.
    3. I Believe Prince Henry shall Rule from The Throne of England is something to Watch for Now His Grandfaher and Queen Elizabeth’s II Husband seed wash though (Philip Mountbatten) is a German Jew from The House and Tribe of Dan (Battenberg Germany).
    TONY BLAIR’ ROLE AS THE ENCHARIST FOR PRINCE WILLIAM
    4. The British had Control of Israel before Israel became a Nation back in 1948 to keep the Jews out and British Former Prime Minister Mr. Tony Blair’s of England Plays a Role as The Diplomatic Quartet Exchequer of The United Nations and The European Union Envoy of The Middle East to set up Jerusalem as The Anti-Christ’s Thong for Prince William as The New Anit-Christ of The New World Order on June 21, 2012 with Prince William running the “Show for England Again.

    Yours truly,

    Chief, John D. Hassett
    The Powhatan Nation
    P.O. Box 4879
    Salinas, CA. 93912
    http://www.powhatangov.org
    # POWHATAN NATIVE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
    #Under the Tribal restoration and reorganization Act of 1934,
    formally “THE POWHATAN CONFEDERACY”{WHEELER-HOWARD Act}.

    • @John Hassett…If what you assume is true then tell me brother, How is this microchip going to tell whether a man has a true circumcission of heart? By receiving such a chip does one have to deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Understand what scripture says,
      1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
      Scripture clearly tells us that it is a spirit not a man as some would have you to believe. Notice that the spirit of antichrist is reffered to as an “IT” and not a he. Therefore verifying that it is a “spirit” and not a man.

      The Mark of the Beast is not some tattoo or micro-chip or anything of the sort. But it is a mark that is unseen by man and only seen by angels. When the angels come to harvest the earth they will gather together the tares (mark of the beast) and bundle them together to burn in the fire. Then they will gather together the wheat (seal of God) and gather them together in the barn as scripture tells us.
      Be not deceived by the doctrine of man. But search the Inspired Word of God for the truth. For in His Word you shall find the truth!

      Be Blessed

      • Wayde, if the mark is only seen by angles because it is invisible how does it keep people from buying & selling?

        The mark is very clearly a literal physical thing. According to what is stated in Rev. it has to be.

        True there are also ‘invisible’ spiritual aspects of the mark, but the physical parts & invisible parts go hand in glove. It is NOT one or the other. It is both. The physical implementation of the mark is the physical representation of the spiritual aspects.

        Any one taking the mark, Jew, gentile, Christian or who ever, will have their part in the lake of fire. Revelation makes that very clear.

        A Christian would be changing their allegiance FROM Christ TO satan if they took the mark.

        In Hebrews 6 we find

        4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

        5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,
        6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

        I feel he falling away from the faith as described in Thess. goes with the above verse in Heb.

        At this point I believe that the great falling away from the faith in Thess. is BECAUSE people were not rooted & grounded in the written Word & their relationship with Father via the Son & Holy Spirit is weak. They do not have the faith it would require to be thrust from satan’s beast system trap.

        What I think the PTR teaching does is give many Christians a false sense of security & lulls them to sleep to one degree or another. They are like the five UN-wise virgins who had no extra oil & they get swallowed by the beast system because their roots were not deep enough into Father.

        Take these verses to heart:

        Romans 15:5
        Now may the

        God Who gives the power of patient endurance

        (steadfastness) and Who supplies encouragement, grant you to live in such mutual harmony and such full sympathy with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,

        1 Corinthians 10:13
        For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful

        to bear up under it patiently.

        To the bog beast system that is slowly being built NOW, I say

        RESISTENCE IS MANDATORY!!!

        SamFox

        • My last sentence above should have read,

          “To the BORG beast system that is slowly being built NOW, I say

          RESISTENCE IS MANDATORY!!! ”

          SamFox

      • Sam Fox

        YO! Wade! You really need to re-read Rev 13

        16 Also he compels all [alike], both small and great, both the rich and the poor, both free and slave, to be marked with an inscription [stamped] on their right hands or on their foreheads,

        17 So that no one will have power to buy or sell unless he bears the stamp (mark, inscription), [that is] the name of the beast or the number of his name.

        It is very clear that the mark is linked to financial transactions such as buying & selling. That of course means that mark has to be ‘read’ one way or another by a human agent. There are spiritual implications as well. Any one taking the mark will be taking the beast system to be their god. That is why those that take it have their part in the lake of fire. If a Christian takes it, he would default be repudiating Jesus & transferring allegiance from Christ to satan’s beast system.

        Hebrews 6:6 Amplified
        If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

        Thanks.

        SamFox

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  • so see us on blennerexpressway.org and fly with us soon

  • Dudley,

    HOW has so many tried to “help me” as you said when they totally IGNORE my questions, just as YOU have?

    Will you answer that one Didley? NO, you do not answer questions, you just spout lies!

  • BTW for all concerned

    This ignoring my questions, which you all do so very well. Is called DIAPRAXIS and is a DEMONIC form of manipulation to cause people to change their opinion and move to your own unbiblical lie.

    This will not work with anyone who walks with the Lord as I do!

    You only show that you are that much more children of the devil.

  • i have 4questions regarding the ark that Noah built, the answers are not found in the text. the story is still true, i believe the word. if someone can not answer my 4 questions regarding the ark i must believe what is written. is it brother Dirk or judge Dirk? i forgot. As for the mark of the beast i will not be here to be required to buy or sell because i went with the real Jesus and will not have to figure out who is who. it will be the martyrs crown for some. i will add some of you to my prayer list cuz the trib is going to be a real witch.

    • Dudley, you say you won’t be here for the mark. That is a perfect example of what I said above a few posts:

      “At this point I believe that the great falling away from the faith in Thess. is BECAUSE people were not rooted & grounded in the written Word & their relationship with Father via the Son & Holy Spirit is weak. They do not have the faith it would require to be thrust from satan’s beast system trap.

      What I think the PTR teaching does is give many Christians a false sense of security & lulls them to sleep to one degree or another. They are like the five UN-wise virgins who had no extra oil & they get swallowed by the beast system because their roots were not deep enough into Father.”

      That slack attitude can getcha trapped. It’s like you are saying “I won’t be here so I don’t have to worry about it. Or be prepared to resist it. Or to tell satan “NO! I won’t take the mark!!”

      If you are not prepared to refuse the mark by being strong in Christ, knowing His Word & be filled with & controlled by the Holy Spirit you have a good chance of being left in outer darkness.

      I see NO ONE here who believes in the PTR has been able to answer what Yeshua meant by the parable of the wheat & tares. The part where He said ‘Let them grow together until the harvest.” That HE HIMSELF said the harvest is the END of the age.

      That NO ONE has responded to Paul’s telling us it’s at the LAST trumpet.

      We who refute the PTR use DIRECT STATEMENTS of the Bible that totally blow the teaching away, yet there are those who cling to this delusion.

      Hmm….is that another fulfilled prophecy?

      If you build a doctrine that leaves out other critical statements, why do you do that? Especially if they are DIRECT & very clear statements. Why do you ignore them?

      Just askin…

      SamFOx

  • Dudley,

    You did not bother to ask me the 4 questions. Whether or not you believe them to be true, matters not.

    The whole thing is WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY TEACH. There is NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!

    WHY?

    Because ALL of the Bible is TRUE and the passages referrred to in my 4 questions all CONTRADICT a PRE TRIB RAPTURE!

    Therefore. The burden of Proof is on you. Since those passages tell us that a pre trib rapture is impossible you are going to have to prove to all using the Bible without YOUR CONJECTURE or HYPOTHESIS or your reasoning, where the Bible confirms your false doctrine.

    You just said you have 4 questions to try to discredit what I am saying. BUT IT IS THE BIBLE ITSELF that disagrees with you!

    And you are still spouting lies until you can answer those 4 questions. Which of course, you can NEVER do!

  • What is wrong Dudley? Can’t you write down your 4 questions about Noah and the Ark?

    You say they are true, but we are to take your word for it without any evidence? Somehow, I don’t think you have 4 questions about Noah and the Ark that are not spoken of in the Bible.

    If you do, then the answers have no meaning, they affect nothing.

    BUT, that is not the case with the 4 questions I have asked. THey are in the Bible. They diectly affect the reality of when we will be gathered to the Lord and they also affect many people.

    BUT YOU, and the rest of the pre trib proclaimers do not want to face those facts. Instead, you will do whatever you can to discredit what I am saying so that you can justify in your own minds that what I am saying means nothing.

    YET, it is the BIBLE that speaks against your doctrine. The Bible says your doctrine is a LIE!

    The Bible does not agree with your doctrine at all. There is NO EVIDENCE of another gathering of God[s people to Himself other than the one Jesus speaks of in Matt 24. There is no evidence in the Bible of another resurrection or of the First Resurrection being split into more than one resurrection.

    There is no evidence that II Thes 2:1-4 is not speaking of Christians who will NOT be gathered to the Lord until AFTER the Antichrist is revealed and declares himself to be God in the temple of God.

    The bible just does not say any of these things.

    YET that is what you claim. So where did you get your information, if it is NOT in the Bible?

  • Yes, there IS a pre-trib rapture! If you will notice in the Bible there are two DIFFERENT versions of Jesus’ return.
    One says He will meet us in the clouds..the other..He returns to stand upon Mt. Zion.. II THess is a reference to the Holy Spirit.In teh GReek it refers to Him (Masculine) who is the restrainer and that He must be taken out of the way..The ONLY restrainer on this Earth is the Holy Spirit..If HE goes, WE go

  • Dave,

    IF what you say is TRUE, then the BIBLE will answer my questions. BUT ALL you have is conjecture.

    You believe in a pre trib rapture and LOOK in the Bible for any evidence EVEN IF IT IS FALSE! (which the passage you refer does NOT refer to a pre trib rapture)

    Of course, yo udo not bother to quote the verse nor give us the reference.

    ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I HAVE ASKED WITH THE BIBLE OR THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRE TRIB RAPTURE!

    YOu cannot read the whole passage in II Thes 2.

    It tells us 2 things>>>>
    1. The Day of the Lord is the same as the when we will be gathered to the Lord.
    2. We will NOT be gathered to the Lord UNTIL AFTER The Antichrist, (the man of perdition) is revealed and declares himself to be God in the Temple of God.

    Sorry, You are wrong, you misinterpret the reference because the earlier verses tell us the CHURCH is still on the earth when the Antichrist is revealed!

    THe Holy Spirit NEVER leaves. SORRY! You are wrong.

    The Bible does NOT the Holy Spirit leaves. THAT is your wrong interpretation AND it does not agree with the rest of that chapter NOR the rest of the Bible!

    • Dirk says of IIThes2; “the earlier verses tell us the CHURCH is still on the earth when the Antichrist is revealed!”
      Your twisting the scriptures Dirk.

      The whole theme of IIThes2 is that Paul was reassuring them because there was a letter written refuting his teachings to the Thessalonian church. If you take an overall view of Paul’s letters you will see that there is a reoccurring theme; (mystery,Grace,the catching away) This has nothing to do with the Jews who are left on earth at the great tribulation. That is a separate plan of God. God has chosen to give His Grace to the Gentile Nations who know NOTHING about the Jewish customs and laws. When this dispensation of Grace ends, God will turn to Israel to complete His promises for the remnant Jewish believers. The Revelation of Jesus Christ shows the churches in the first 3 chapters, and they are not mentioned again until the 2nd advent when we come with Christ. Rev19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen white and clean. (white and clean always describes His saints) How can we come with Him if we are on the earth? Also, in Rev17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful. It makes no sense for the Lord to gather us up to heaven and then immediately come back to earth. John14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also. He says He goes to prepare a place for us, and that place is heaven, not earth. Why would we go to heaven for a micro-second and then come back to earth. Dirk, you need the WHOLE counsel of God. Not just II Thes2:2.

  • Dave,

    WHY do you TWIST the Scriptures and make it say something IT JUST DOES NOT SAY?

    WHy do you make the Bible Contradict itself?

    WHY are you lying?

  • WHY don’t you PROVE ME WRONG?

    You are all saying or thinking I am crazy, I am deceived, I am wrong.

    OK, so IF you are correct and the Bible actually teaches a pre trib rapture the 4 questions I have asked have scriptural answers where the Bible EXPLAINS why a post trib ideology is wrong.

    So, shut me up. Answer my questions. If you honestly use the Bible to answer my questions I will admit my error and recant a post trib belief publically.

    OR could it be that not one of you can find the answers to my questions in the Bible? If you can’t find the answers to my questions in the Bible, then a pre trib rapture is IMPOSSIBLE!

    WHY do I say that? Because the verses I have posted all are quite clear. They tell us there is a gathering by the Lord of His people AFTER THE END OF THE TRIB.

    They also tell us that the gathering of God’s people is not quiet, silent, or secret.

    They also tell us there is only ONE FIRST RESURRECTION and that occurs as Jesus said after the END of the Great Tribulation.

    SO, where does the Bible say different? Prove me wrong or admit you are wrong.

    • Multiple Resurrections

      The New Testament teaches multiple resurrections, not just a single event at the end of time. There are multiple resurrections of believers that do not occur at the same time but are sequential as follows:

      1. The resurrection of Jesus Christ as the first fruit of many to be raised (Rom. 6:9; 1 Cor. 15:23; Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:18).
      2. The resurrection of the redeemed at Christ’s coming (Dan. 12:2; Luke 14:14; John 5:29; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 20:4, 6)
      * Resurrection of the church at the rapture.
      * Resurrection of Old Testament believers at the second coming (Jews and Gentiles), at least seven years after the resurrection at the rapture.
      * Resurrection of all martyred tribulation saints at the second coming (Jews and Gentiles).
      * Resurrection of all millennial believers after the millennium (implied).
      3. The resurrection of the unredeemed from throughout history (Rev. 20:11-14).

      Conclusion

      Since the Bible teaches multiple resurrections, depending on which saved body it relates too, it does not mean that there is only a single or mass resurrection at which time every believer from Adam on down is raised up. Statements that simply mention a time of future resurrection should not be taken as an exhaustive statement concerning this issue. Instead, later statements that speak specifically about a time when a resurrection will occur should be taken as the ones that provide a chronology of these events. One should never use one statement in Scripture to argue against the clear meaning of another passage, as if they are pitted against one another. However, since there are no contradictions in the Bible, all passages should be interpreted in their contexts in such a way that Scripture is harmonized with itself. This is the approach that should be taken in dealing with these passages in relation to pretribulationism. When this approach is followed, it does not result in an anti-pretrib polemic. Maranatha!

      The Rapture The Revelation
      1. Christ comes to the air (1Th_4:17). 1. He comes to the earth (Zec_14:4).
      2. He comes for His saints (1Th_4:16-17). 2. He comes with His saints (1Th_3:13; Jud_1:14).
      3. The Rapture is a mystery, i. e. , a truth unknown in OT times (1Co_15:51). 3. The Revelation is not a mystery; it is the subject of many OT prophecies (Ps. 72; Isa. 11; Zech 14).
      4. Christ’s coming forHis saints is never said to be preceded by celestial portents. 4. His coming with His saints will be heralded by signs in the heavens (Mat_24:29-30).
      5. The Rapture is presented as a time of blessing (1Th_4:18). 5. The Revelation is identified with the Day of the Lord (2Th_2:1-12, NU Text).
      6. The Rapture is presented as a time of blessing (1Th_4:18). 6. The main emphasis of the Revelation is on judgment (2Th_2:8-12).
      7. The Rapture takes place in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1Co_15:52). This strongly implies that it will not be witnessed by the world. 7. The Revelation will be visible world-wide (Mat_24:27; Rev_1:7).
      8. The rapture seems to involve the church primarily (Joh_14:1-4; 1Co_15:51-58; 1Th_4:13-18) 8. The Revelation involves Israel primarily, then also the Gentile nations (Mat. 24:1-25:46)
      9. Christ comes as the Bright and Morning Star (Rev_22:16). 9. He comes as the Sun of Righteousness with healing in His wings (Mal_4:2).
      10. The Rapture is not mentioned in the Synoptic Gospels, but is alluded to several times in John’s Gospel. 10. The Revelation is characteristic in the Synoptics but hardly mentioned in John’s Gospel.
      11. Those taken are taken for blessing (1Th_4:13-18). Those left are left for judgment (1Th_5:1-3). 11. Those taken are taken for judgment. Those left are left for blessing (Mat_24:37-41).
      12. No dating system is given for events preceding the Rapture. 12. An elaborate dating system is given for the Revelation, such as 1260 days, 42 months, 3½ years (see Dan_7:25; Dan_12:7, Dan_12:11-12; Rev_11:2; Rev_12:14; Rev_13:5).
      13. The title “Son of Man” is never used in any of the passages dealing with the Rapture. 13. The revelation is spoken of as the coming of the Son of Man (Mat_16:28; Mat_24:27, Mat_24:30, Mat_24:39; Mat_26:64; Mar_13:26; Luk_21:27).

      • Matt,

        You have not posted any answer to my questions. You have posted no scripture that Says there is more than 2 Resurrections.

        You are throwing out conjecture, supposition and lies.

        There is NO VERSE ANYWHERE in what you have posted that says II Thes 2:1-4 does NOT apply to Christians. There is no verse you have posted that says there is ANOTHER Gathering of believers to the Lord other than MAtt 24:29-31

        Read I Thes 4 closely without taking anything out of context. IT IS NOT SECRET, IT IS NOT SILENT, EVERYBODY WILL KNOW IT HAPPENS!

        That is not the rapture that happens prior to the Trib.

        Sorry, you have proven NOTHING other than you cannot read the Bible !

        • According to Dirk…..
          2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!
          One thing is for sure, Gods Word is not dependent upon man’s abilities to understand it.
          It can only be deeply understood by Gods Holy Spirit dwelling in us and a yearning desire for Gods everlasting truth.
          Here we clearly see that Enoch was translated i.e.(Raptured) before the Wrath of God came on the whole world. And BEFORE he was translated, he had a testimony; “that he pleased God”.
          Heb11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Some things God wants us to have faith in and trust Him); Prov 3:5 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding… Heb 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Here we see that Noah trusted God with things not yet seen.)
          When rightly divided; the Word of God shows us two different plans. One for the chosen Nation Israel, (the bride), and one for the age of grace; (the church/the body). Mixing these two plans will only cause confusion in ones understanding. God has ALWAYS had His plan for Israel, outside of the rest of the world.
          Dirk, my contention is that you are leaning on your human understanding…i would suggest that you seek God and His wisdom to guide you. It seems to me that pride is getting the best of you, but even so, after reading all of your postings i would say you have received MORE than enough Scriptures to dig into for the truth of Gods Word. With that said, the spirit in which you convey your posting’s is NOT Christ like. The militant nature you use here is not helping your cause.
          Lords Blessings.

          • MATT,

            ACTUALLY, you are leaning on MAN not God.

            God NEVER contradicts the Bible. The Pre Trib Rapture Doctrine Contradicts the Bible.

            Therefore, you are contradicting the Bible and whatever you have “learned” or understood of the scriptures was NOT taught to you by the Holy Spirit.

            WHY? Because it contradicts the Bible.

            You have NO SUPPORT of the scriptures for a pre trib rapture as has been shown several times by several people. Neither you, Matt, now the Admin, nor anyone else have provided one shred of scroptural proof of any of your assumptions or conjectures.

            NOT ONE!

            I am NOT interpreting the Bible at all. Nor am I offering my idea, as you are.

            I have posted straight scripture NOT taken out of context and it contradicts a pre trib rapture.

            Therefore, a pre trib rapture is impossible. Unless of course, you have some verses that have yet to be posted that show the verses I have posted are in error.

            But you do not. Read II Thes 2:1-4 a few times without ANY preconceived notions or ideas attached. You will see that the Church will NOT be gathered to the Lord UNTIL AFTER the Antichrist (the man of perdition) is revealed and declares himself to be God in the temple of God.

            That is what that verse says. Or do you wish to TWIST IT to meet your doctrine??????

            I am afraid sir, that it is you who are deceived. AND until you lay down ALL of your pre trib rapture doctrine and admit your error and willingness to be taught GOD’s truth, you will remain in deception!

          • OK Dirk, one more time, Paul was defending against a “letter” that the Thessalonians had received from some outside influence.
            IIThes 2:2 It should be clear that the Rapture is not the same as the Day of the Lord. The Thessalonians were not worried that the Lord had come; they knew that He had not. But they were worried that the Day of the Lord had begun. The intense persecution they were enduring made them think they were in the Tribulation, the first phase of the Day of the Lord.
            One more thing, you may want to watch who you call a liar, that sort of thing is not for you to do as a born again believer. Humble yourself before the Lord.
            And with that, my friend my prayer is that the Holy Spirit of Truth come to you through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ .

          • Matt,

            ALL you have posted is a LIE!

            Paul equates the Day of the Lord with the gathering of the saints.

            Even were you to be correct (which you are not) there is no other gathering of the saints in the Bible besides the one in Matt 24:29-31.

            You are ASSUMING many things and doing so falsely.

            Answer the 4 Questions I have asked USING THE BIBLE without YOUR CONJECTURE! WITHOUT CONTRADICTING THE BIBLE!

            You cannot do it! YOu are clouding the iassue trying to make the BIble agree with your doctrine. BUT THE BIBLE does NOT agree with you! You are preaching a LIE!

          • Well, all i can say is that I preach to you the cross of Jesus Christ, that he was crucified for the sins of the world, that he was buried and rose again on the third day. Jesus died for you…and you to can be saved by Grace through faith. Believe on the only begotten Son of God and you shall be saved.

          • Matt

            In order to know HIS TRUTH.

            We must set aside ALL we think, all the doctrines and beliefs we hod and ask HIM what does HE SAY!

            We cannot go LOOKING for PROOF of a pre trib rapture thinking we have His truth.

            NO, we must ask HIM what HE says and NO MATTER WHAT that does to our previously held beliefs, we believe HIM and not what others have told us.

            YOU have not done this, nor has anyone who promotes a pre trib rapture. Instead, what you have done is come to the Bible already believing a pre trib rapture and looking for the proof of it.

            You will ALWAYS end up deceived doing that. ALWAYS!

            What does it mean to believe, Matt?

            If there is NOT obedeince to HIM, then you do not truly believe. Have you laid down everything and denied yourself? That is part of His conditions for believing.

            How can you deny yourself and still promote what YOU THINK IS TRUE? that is hypocrisy, something God hates.

            Have you REALLY become a child of God?

            I John 5: 18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

            Or maybe you would prefer the Amplified>>>

            I John 5:18We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him].

            Is that how you live? Is that what you preach Matt? Is that the BELIEVING you are talking about? If not, you are NOT preaching the GOSPEL!

          • 1 John 1:8-10 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (so according to what you stated above, that makes you a liar). Even the Apostle Paul struggled with the flesh…. Romans 7:14-20 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
            What you need friend is Gods grace through faith.
            And no…i don’t use the amplified bible. I use several versions to get a clear meaning of the scriptures. Including the original Greek word for word .
            By the way, you sure seem arrogant to presume to know that you know anything about me, or anyone you falsely accuse of lying or ignorance in the above postings.
            If your so against the pre-trib beliefs of this web site, go somewhere else. There’s got to be sites that hold your views. Whats with the obsession in trying to cause division? To tell the truth, you are in a fractional minority when it comes to this issue, and that includes countless scholars that are way smarter than you and me that have exhausted this issue and have come to the prayerful digging out of Gods truth. So, if you don’t like this sites views, go be with those of your kind.

          • MATT,

            I just copied the verses from the Bible. I did not say anything about not sinning.

            YOu have assumed, and YOU are once agains CONTRADICTING the BIBLE.

            You sure contradict the Bible alot. WHy would anyone listen to you?

            Oh, I know, they want their ears tickled so they don’t have to obey God!

          • BTW Matt,

            Here are some MORE VERSES of I John that your erroneous interpretation contradicts>>>>

            1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
            1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
            1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
            1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
            1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
            1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
            1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
            1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

            AND WHY did John write I John in the first place?

            1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

            NOTICE THAT, Matt, IF any man sins. IT IS NOT WHEN EVERY MAN SINS!

            Once again, you contradict the Bible. WHen will yo ustop this and admit your error?

          • Oh good…I’m glad to know that you can post more than a couple of sporadic verses from the bible that are NOT out of context. Dirk, i think you just like to argue with people….oh, and YOU are NEVER wrong about anything, so…..I’m not into your game, but maybe someone else will be. So leech on to some other sap so you can waste valuable time and effort while beating up on the saints of the God that you supposedly love, and I’ll go preach Jesus Christ to the lost and dying world. God Bless you.

          • Matt,

            First of all, if you have read what has been written, you would already KNOW I do not post verses out of context.
            Second, this lack shows you have either NOT read what is above and are commenting on something you have NO IDEA ABOUT, or you can’t remember what you read.
            Third, you are doing what the Pharisees did to Jesus, when they could NOT answer His questions, THEY ATTACKED HIM PERSONALLY!

            In each case you show yourself someone NOT to be taken seriously, not to be listened to.

            ALL you care about is promoting your ideas, your doctrine. You have NO LOVE FOR THE TRUTH.

            I never said I am never wrong. I have been many times.

            BUT the BIBLE is never wrong and a pre trib rapture contradicts the Bible. Therefore, a pre trib rapture is a LIE!

            I am not bearting up anyone. I have continually asked the same questions to which not one of you has answered one of them yet.

            You say I am beating you up. How? by telling the truth? By asking you to prove what you say is true using the Bible?
            ‎1Pe 3:15 But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully. [Isa. 8:12, 13.]

            Why do you ignore this verse? ALL OF YOU?

            You have no answers so you attack me. YOU are the ones who are trying to beat me up.

            But I have been given a word to say to which YOU HAVE NO ANSWER!. Your response has been the same the Sanhedran gave to Stephen. So God’s word to you is>>>>>

            Act 7:51 You stubborn and stiff-necked people, still heathen and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are always actively resisting the Holy Spirit. As your forefathers [were], so you [are and so you do]! [Exod. 33:3, 5; Num. 27:14; Isa. 63:10; Jer. 6:10; 9:26.]

            And although you are unable to stone me, if you could, you would!

          • Matt, where to begin. Your post is so easy to refute with scripture…

            Where does the BOOK say Enoch or Noah or any one else is a prefigure of the 2nd advent of Messiah? The Bible says no such thing! Some men say that, but the BOOK does NOT!

            They conflagrated those who were taken because of the term ‘caught up’ & have built a doctrine on it, a very false one. But they ignore all the times Father kept His own through situations like the fiery furnace, the lions den & so on.

            The ONLY OT prefigure was Isaac on the alter with Abraham. Paul brought that out in Hebrews 11–
            17 By faith Abraham, when he was put to the test [while the testing of his faith was still in progress], had already brought Isaac for an offering; he who had gladly received and welcomed [God’s] promises was ready to sacrifice his only son,
            18 Of whom it was said, Through Isaac shall your descendants be reckoned.
            19 For he reasoned that God was able to raise [him] up even from among the dead. Indeed in the sense that Isaac was figuratively dead [potentially sacrificed], he did [actually] receive him back from the dead.

            “When rightly divided; the Word of God shows us two different plans. One for the chosen Nation Israel, (the bride), and one for the age of grace; (the church/the body). Mixing these two plans will only cause confusion in ones understanding. God has ALWAYS had His plan for Israel, outside of the rest of the world.”

            Looks like some one forgot to tell Yeshua & Paul about those “two plans”.

            John 17, AMP, BibleGateWay, Read the whole chapter.
            19 And so for their sake and on their behalf I sanctify (dedicate, consecrate) Myself, that they also may be sanctified (dedicated, consecrated, made holy) in the Truth.
            20 Neither for these alone do I pray [it is not for their sake only that I make this request], but also for all those who will ever come to believe in (trust in, cling to, rely on) Me through their word and teaching,
            21 That they all may be one, [just] as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me.

            ALL those who would EVER come to faith in Jesus because of their teaching would of course include Jew & Gentile. It’s a chain of progression.

            Ephesians 2:14-16 Amplified Bible BibleGateWay
            14 For He is [Himself] our peace (our bond of unity and harmony). He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body], and has broken down (destroyed, abolished) the hostile dividing wall between us,
            15 By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.
            16 And [He designed] to reconcile to God both [Jew and Gentile, united] in a single body by means of His cross, thereby killing the mutual enmity and bringing the feud to an end.

            So much for ‘two plans’. What you paraphrased by saying ‘two plans’ is called the dichotomy between Israel & the church by the false teachers of the PTR.

            As you can plainly see there is NO wall of separation, another term for ‘dichotomy’ used by the PTR teachers, in these DIRECT statements by Yeshua & Paul.

            You make statements that are not in the Bible then tell Dirk to seek God’s wisdom. Talk about leaning on human understanding.

            You need to repent.

            The ONLY Biblical ‘dichotomy’ is between saved & lost.

            If you need more scripture to support what I posted, I have them. I am appalled that you can’t see what the BOOK itself says. You are snared by false teachings of men.

            SamFox

  • The book of Hebrews gives you the actual number of appearances of Jesus.

    Some might believe that the count should at least be THREE in number:

    1. Jesus came to his own people and was sacrificed
    2. Jesus secretly appears for a Rapture of His church
    3. Jesus appears as King of Kings to rule for 1,000 years

    …To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear A SECOND TIME… (Hebrews 9:28)

    What event above does not belong in the list of three?

    One minister said that Hebrews 9:28 represents a Rapture.

    My question is, “Why would Jesus’ “2nd Coming”, His appearance as King of Kings, not be important to list in Hebrews 9:28”?

    Another minister said that this verse represents the 2nd coming of Christ in which He will rule for 1,000 years.

    Will the Tribulation be like the ‘”Days of Noah”, in which the righteous were “left behind” and protected here on earth, while the evil were “taken away and destroyed in the Flood”?

  • Pre-Trib and Post-Trib Rapture and both WRONG! The “Rapture/Taken” is for the Wicked, the “Gathering/Calling” is for the Righteous.

    “Luke 17:34-37 (King James Version)

    “I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

    Wheresoever the body (carcases) the Eagles will eat at their dead bodies.

    Jeremiah 16:4 (KJV)
    “They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.”

    Rev 19:17-21
    “17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;”

    You don’t want to be a part of the described “Rapture/Taken”

    Be a part of: ” the Gathering/Calling” is for the Righteous.

    Jeremiah 23:1-8 –
    3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

    Revelation 18:1-5 – I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    Daniel 12:1-3 – “and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”

    Be Gathered, Called and Delivered!

    Peace and Prayers!

    Amen

  • I love you all!
    And I must ad that biblically speaking, there is no rapture.
    The theology of the rapture was “man” made and is now loosely based on 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 because the modern translation of the bible uses the words “caught up” in it.
    What is really being referred to there is the “first resurrection” of Gods people dead and living upon his return.

    See Daniel 12:2, John 5:29, Acts 24:15, Matt 23:3, Rev 20 etc.

    Soli deo gloria 🙂

    • and where does it say we meet Him (Christ)? where is the Judgment Seat of the Lamb held? Where is the Wedding Feast Held?

      • We are already married to Christ. We are too be eating of Him daily Bread and Wine (Jesus). Think about this we as the church are to be bringing in new converts or you could say birthing baby sheep. If we are the bride to be and God thru His Son is planting seed into the church to bring forth new converts without a marriage then we are giving birth to what the Bible would call Basturds and we know that isn’t happening. There is just so much that Religion has done to ruin Christianity. Man has tried to fiqure out Gods plan with mans mind and truly we’re not figuring anything out until we are in the Spirit.

      • The wedding feast be held in Isreal during one of Y’hovah’s pre-ordained feasts instructed to the Isrealites in Leviticus 23. These are also feasts that we as christians should be observing. Not the Christmas and Easter satanic rituals we currently observe.

        The actual wedding feast will be held during the Feast Of Tabernacles in October 2016. http://danielstimeline.com/calendar.htm and in accordance with Zech 14.

        The restrainer in 2 Thes 2:6-7 is not the Holy Ghost. It is the current world power structure in place that is trying to put together the New World Order. This however will be decimated (taken out) in accordance with Revelation Chp 6 and 8.

        There will not be a secret, silent rapture of the church. This is an unbiblical teaching that has been propogated by the current world government to keep the elect confused – if they can be.

  • THE HOPE OF CHRIST’S RETURN IS NOT WITH THE POST TRIB AND NO TRIBBERS. HAL LINDSAY BELIEVES IN A PRE TRIB RAPTURE, JOHN HAGEE ALSO, DR. DAVID JERAMIAH, ROD PARSLEY, DR. JACK VAN IMPE, GRANT JEFFERY, PERRY STONE APOSTLE PAUL AND CHRIST HIMSELF. AS STATED EARLIER WHY DEBATE THE OBVIOUS TRUTH. NO ONE SHOULD ARGUE WITH THE FACTS. I BELIEVE IT IS DIRK’S TURN TO CROSS EXAMINE WITH HIS USUAL. PEACE BE WITH MY PRE TRIB RAPTURE FRIENDS, MY PRAYERS TO THE REST OF YOU.

    • GRACE,

      SHOW ME AND THE REST OF THE READERS HERE WHERE Jesus and Paul believe in a pre trib rapture.

      But you won’t, you can’t. That evidence is NOT in the Bible, it is only in your imagination!

      What obvious truth? NO ONE can answer the questions I have asked directly from the BIble. The BIBLE does not teach a pre trib rapture.

      Poor, poor deluded child. You have really been sold a bill of goods BUT there is NOTHING in the bag.

      But you will not answer these questions. You will continue to delude yourselves, thinking you will escape the tribualtion and all the while you will begin to live through it. If you are not careful, you will even take the Mark of the Beast, because you refuse to look at the truth, and instead you believe a lie.

      God warned of people like you using Paul in II Thes 2: 9-12.

      Because you do not love the TRUTH, God Himself will send you a deluding influence so that you will HAVE to believe a lie, and your end will be perdition.

  • grace, they are deceiving you and you let them.

    In fact, you want them to deceive you.

    When will you answer the questions you have been asked? Never.

    None of you can answer those questions. It is IMPOSSIBLE to answer those questions.

    WHY?

    Because the Bible does not teach a pre trib rapture!

    ALl you do is read the Bible with a pre conceived idea that there is a pre trib rapture and so you twist the Bible to conform to your belief.

    But that is NOT His Truth. It is satan’s.

    Poor child

  • The rapture debate can become a distraction, taking our focus off of our daily walk with God and our calling to live righteously in this world. We are to be like Jesus, going about doing good and pointing others to God with our words and the testimony of our daily lives, ready to meet Him at any time.

    Throughout history, lawlessness (rebellion against the rule of the Creator) has caused untold suffering and death and there is no one who has not been touched by it in some way. We are to tell everyone the good news that the Kingdom of God is coming–The King Of Kings and The Righteous Judge is coming and He will rule over all the earth! Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of His throne 🙂 1 Corinthians 15:27,28; Revelation 17:14; 21:3, 22:1-3. To evil-doers it is a message of judgement and call to repentance. To those who are children of the kingdom, it is wonderful good news and also a call to live in loving submission to our Father, The King.

    At some point we will receive glorified bodies. The saints who have gone to the grave will be resurrected and the kingdom will be set up. But the time line of how and when that actually takes place can be debated forever. If we concern ourselves with living holy lives, then it doesn’t matter when and how it all takes place . When a person dies that is a type of personal rapture. And that could happen any minute of the day. So always be ready.

    It grieves me to see some here making comments that speak judgmentally of other fellow Christians who have stated their (different) views. This should not be. I would hope that we could remain amicable and treat one another with respect, even if we disagree on the issue of the rapture. Are we not all brothers and sisters and members of the body of Christ, unless we kid ourselves and our faith is not a reality? If we are who we say we are, than shouldn’t it show in the way we treat one another? (They’ll know we are Christians by our love” Not to be apathetic or wishy- washy when it comes to sin, however…)

    I believe the entire body of Scripture, relevant passages in both “old” and “new” testaments, must be carefully examined before coming to any firm conclusions about the “rapture” or any other such matter. Too often, we Christians can be rightly criticized for merely using selected Scriptures to support our pre-set opinions, while conveniently ignoring other Scriptures. Can that be considered good scholarship?
    It is also important to consider various translations and the literal wording and tense usage in the Greek, and it is wise to take into account the comments and insights of knowledgeable Biblical Greek scholars (plural, and preferably objective 😉 Otherwise, we may only be pooling our ignorance or muddying the waters with theology based on faulty human wisdom and reasoning.

    My childhood pastor used to say, “Let Scripture interpret Scripture.”

    The Israelites of old were protected and kept safe in the midst of the plagues poured out on the Egyptians. They were not taken out of Egypt to meet with God at Sinai until the last of the plagues had taken place.

    Yeshua/Jesus taught that the end times would be comparable to the times of Noah. Noah and his family were saved “in” or “out of” the midst of the flood. They were preserved and kept alive in the midst of the judgement poured out upon the world– they were the only ones left behind after the flood. All the unbelievers were taken away by the flood.

    Mat 24:39 says: “And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    When understood in context, Yehsua is talking about the flood, something real bad taking them, unbelievers, away.
    So in the very next words out of his mouth why would we even assume the one taken in the field was taken by something good, i.e. the rapture?

    The ones taken according to Yeshua’s example were taken by something terrible and totally undesirable. Not something good.

    Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    You Want to be left behind when that happens!

    Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

    Mat 24:29 Immediately After the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    His elect are not gathered together until after the tribulation.

    Personally, I do not think the Scriptures teach there will be a pre-trib rapture, and as someone has already pointed out, such an idea had not been heard of prior to Darby et al. in the 1800’s. I believe God will preserve His children in the tribulation and deliver them from it, but not necessarily by removing them from the earth in a rapture event.

    I just came across this article on the End Times when I did a search: http://lionlamb.net/v3/YAVOHHeiscoming /2011/05

  • Tizrah,

    I am sorry but that link leads to a blank page. The only thing I noticed on that site was a TIMELINE of their idea of the Tribulation.

    NOW, this site goes into EXTENSIVE DETAIL and even shows how some of the pre trib promoters have LIED and led people astray>>>>

    http://www.totall.exagorazo.net/Post-Tribulation/Mirrors/Last%20Trumpet%202000/www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html#pretrib

    But even though they write with great skill, the pre trib people will not believe it if they even go there. They are, in general, NOT interested in the TRUTH. They are interested in promoting a pre trib rapture.

    That kind of attitdue ALWAYS leads to deception.

  • one thing that we must all keep in mind… if a person believes there is a pretrib rapture and there is not, yet remains steadfast to Christ, what has he lost?

    if a person believes in a mid trib rapture and there is not, yet remains steadfast to Christ, what has he lost?

    if a person believes in a post trib rapture and there is not, yet remains steadfast to Christ, what has he lost?

    and yet, if a person is a not rapturist, and remains stead fast in Christ, what has he lost…..

    answer…. NOTHING… IT IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE.

    • Sam Fox

      Mike, that only works if each individual is ready to endure to the end & love not their life even unto death. How many that believe in the PTR movement will be ready to face situations they think they won’t be here for? One person above said something about not being here & was thus not concerned. If all those you described are ready to face what’s coming & hang on to Jesus no matter what their doctrine is, they’ll be OK.

      But will they be OK if they are not prepared BECAUSE of the PTR?

      I understand where you are coming from, but this is an issue that cannot be given a pass.

      Their salvation is intact NOW. But if faced with, say the mark, or martyrdom, will they be ready if they thought they were supposed to fly away? Salvation will never be taken back by Father. That is a given. Another given is that salvation can be forfeited, repudiated & walked away from. I believe the PTR teaching is setting up Christians for the mark.

      I see as very possible a scenario at a govt office: “Well! Here you are. Are you going to take this mark so you can go on about your business, pay your bills, feed & care for your family? Or are you going to believe that book of yours, the Bible? Remember, you were lied to about being snatched away to heaven. But here you are still. What else have you been lied to about? ” Adding to the pressure will be demonic forces throwing thoughts, fear, feelings & such at the person being questioned. We have to be ready as much as we can on our end for stuff like that these days. It won’t be enough, to be sure. BUT! Father will take care of us one way or another. He will give us the help we need just when we need it. [I’d kinda like it if He was a bit early sometimes…oh well. He is the Boss.] If the person says NO!!! to the mark, he may be killed. Guess where he goes then…:-D

      How many of those in your groups will be ready for this if they now think that they won’t be here & take the whole mark thing with an air of indifference “Because we won’t be here!”?

      As bold as I may sound, I keep close to Jesus because my flesh man just does not have what it takes to navigate the above situation. I do know though, that His Word cannot fail. That is my guide as I walk with Him. I am hardly a bastion of strength & power. HE is my hope…

      SamFox

  • Mike,

    Then WHY did Jesus and Paul BOTH Warn us not to allow ANYONE to deceive us about when HE would gather us to Himself?

    If you believe in a pre or mid trib rapture and it is not true, you could easily take the mark of the Beast because you “know” it will not be available until AFTER you are raptured!

    Oh, there are real problems with NOT believing the TRUTH. You have not read II Thes 2 very well at all>>>>

    2Th 2:9 The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity and working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs and delusive marvels–[all of them] lying wonders–
    2Th 2:10 And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false,
    2Th 2:12 In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.

    God calls not believing HIS TRUTH taking pleasure in unrighteousness! Truth is CENTRAL to everything about God.

    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH. He will ONLY LEAD us into God’s Truth. If we believe a LIE, Which the pre and mid trib rapture theories are lies, then we do not love the Truth.

    What happens to those who have chosen to believe a lie according to II Thes 2?

    God sends them a delusion so that they will HAVE to believe a LIE and then they will end up in perdition!

    So, Mike, it IS a salvation issue. You are quite wrong once more!

    You are preaching contrary to the scriptures, Mike. That makes you a false teacher. What does the Bible say about false teachers?

    Oh, you want to believe a pre trib rapture is not a salvation issue, but what you say is NOT what the Bible says!

    • Sam Fox

      Dirk, since your post I am replying to, 16 May 2011 John McArthur has said the people can take the mark & still be saved.

      I left comments there under SamFox.

      What other false teachings is believing in the PTR going to produce?

      SamFox

  • Dirk,

    Despite the issue about the pre-tib rapture (which I do believe,) I am rather concerned about your spirit to argue. God is not a God of confusion nor is His kingdom divided.
    There are better ways to present your arguments without condemning others as liars and brashly refuting what others have kindly defended.

    • This is a spirit of contention; of strife.
      Pray for Dirk to be filled with Christ’s love.

      • Sorry,

        Does LOVE EVER ALLOW A LIE?

        Does God endorse lying? What about what Jesus said in Matt 23? It appears that Jesus had a spirit of strife and contention, ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!

        Perhaps you need to reasses what the WHOLE BIBLE SAYS instead of just believing the parts that make you comfortable

        a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Anne,

    So you say.

    BUT YOU refuse to deal with the scriptures presented and you cannot answer the questions I have asked. WHY?

    Why do you ACCUSE ME of evil when you hide behind your doctrine?

    You don’t even see the duplicity.

  • Ya’ll Let me Open up a Can of Worms. The Rapture. I Believe in the Rapture. The great catching away. Jesus spoke of the Rapture in Matthew 24. Somehow the Story that Jesus told and the story I was taught my whole life, are two different stories. Jesus said one thing. We say another. He said For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of those who believe in me Those days will be cut short.
    (Now right here is what I’ve been taught) Somebody chose to add their own philosiphy in here. ( But before all of this happens then shall he send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and shall gather together his children from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven). Not!! Somebody added something in the scripture and decided that should be the way it should be) The words in parentheses I have added and are not really there in scripture. But here is what is in Scripture. But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “And then the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And THEN shall he send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and shall gather together his children from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Yep, I believe in the Rapture!!! For those who believe the False Teaching about a Pre Trib Rapture. Something that Men have twisted and bent Scripture to come up with. I guess Jesus simply forgot to mention the Fact that, Oh Yay, I forgot to tell you one small detail, I’m coming back Early to remove every last living Child of mine on Planet Earth before the Tribulation. It ain’t in there. Nowhere. You can bend scripture all day long and it’s still not in there. Well, What about Rev 4:1 That really gives in detail about Christ coming Early to Rapture his Saints before the Tribulation. Well, What about We’re not appointed to Wrath. You’re not. That’s the Wrath of God. And when the Mighty Christ comes back. You talking about Wrath. Well, the Bible says, They’ll cut peoples heads off for not taking the Mark of the Beast. That’s Wrath. Hey, Go to Iran and get in the Square and Start Preaching the Message of Jesus. You won’t have a head tonight.

  • Amen Bill,

    BUT, these pre tribbers will not answer you just as they have not answered the 4 questions I have asked. They may not admit it to themselves, but deep down they KNOW that if they try, they will fail and then they will HAVE to admit they are WRONG!

    BUT that is just something they will not do. They have far too much pride in their ability to figure out what THEY CALL the “TRUTH” (Although it IS a lie)
    and they have far too much vested interest in this lie to ever admit they are wrong.

    They would rather go to HELL taking a stand for this lie, then ever admit they were wrong before men!

  • well, guess who was wrong once again? What kind of good christian weasles money out of innocent people, makes them quit their jobs for a LIE. Specially when it cleary states in the bible we are to be aware of false prophets and that god only himself will know of his return. Shame on you Mr Camping,

  • Look, the WHOLE BIBLE IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

    That includes the verses I and others who have PROVEN a pre trib rapture is impossible.

    Your false doctrine contradicts the WHOLE BIBLE on this subject. You cannot take isolated verses that YOU Believe agrees with you and say this PROVES a pre trib rapture.

    THAT is deception.

    We must look at the WHOLE BIBLE and see what the WHOLE BIBLE SAYS!

    So, I have repeatedly asked for ANYONE to answer my 4 questions. NOT ONE OF YOU CAN!

    1 person attempted to dance around those questions but posted not one single proof from the scriptures.

    SINCE NONE of you can answer these questions, then you are admitting you are wrong and that a pre trib rapture is FALSE. (deespite the words you type) because you cannot answer those 4 questions from the Bible.

    And of course your latest fraud has once again blown it by going so far as to predict when the false rapture will occur and of course, he was WRONG AGAIN!

    Just as all of you are for continuing to promote this lie!

  • Mr Dirk.

    People can’t hear you regardless of how right or wrong you may be, because you’re acting like a Jerk. If you want to know my view on this subject, I’m 2 comments above your last offering. State your case and walk. If someone has anything to say about a Pre Trib Rapture, It should be easily overcome with Class.

  • And besides. Anytime you challenge a lifelong belief system within someone. They first have to hear what you’re saying. Then they have to go chew on it a while. And then if it starts making sense to them, then they have to open the Bible and search it out for themselves. Obviously you have searched it out. Tell your story then let the seed grow on its own.

  • Ah Bill,

    Again another attack from another direction against my character. Yo uknow nothing about me. I have been consistent on this thread. IF you had actually read the things I have posted they were to present the truth or to explain WHY a responder was incorrect and were themselves lying.

    You sir, continue in the very same attitude. I have patiently explained why people were incorrect, why they were walking in sin, and why they needed to stop what they are doing. THEY have been consistently attacking and accusing me, JUST LIKE YOU HAVE, in the same manner as was promised by Jesus to those who follow Him. You and these people who are pre trib deceivers, AND THAT IS THE TRUTH WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE WILLING TO ADMIT IT, are doing the work of satan.

    Goodday!

  • Dirk,
    Wasn’t trying to be mean to ya Dude. I don’t know what others are saying to you or about you. I just read your post and it was Abrasive. If you want your message heard, then learn to be a good neighbor with tact. Other wise you may have the end all answers to all the problems in the World, but no one will listen. If everybody’s sayin’ the same thing about you, then it’s you and not your message being noted. Anytime someone gets defensive and has to justify themselves, all the time. Something may need attention in your Character. I’d suggest you let the hair that’s standing up on your back right now,,, ease up just a bit. It ain’t about YOU anyway.

  • Ah, Bill,

    But I am NOT being defensive. Just speaking the truth.

    Perhaps it grates on you as it does on ALL who alk in pride.

  • Well, I guess all my wonderful words of wisdom and helpin’ a bro out have no chance of even being considered. So, I’ll just take me and my Pride and carry on. So, God Bless and Good Luck!

  • Dirk,
    The rabbis used to teach the coming of 2 messiahs because they saw a suffering servant and a king. The didn’t see that this would be in one man. They also thought Jesus would set up his Kingdom immediately and didn’t see it would be 2 comings. Look into the Jewish wedding ceremony and you will see there is a time for a week in seclusion then the marriage supper. He comes as thief one time. A thief doesn’t stay around. He grabs the valuables and leaves.

  • 1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation.

    There is not a sentence that Jesus said “I am God” but anyone searching will see he did claim to be.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!

    Thessalonians were worried the DAY of the Lord had come (tribulation) Paul said that DAY will not come until man of lawlessness revealed. The day of the Lord is always the tribulation. Not the gathering of the saints.

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib.

    see answer to 1

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will
    be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib.

    First gathering FOR his people next coming with his people already crowned in Rev 4.

    Tribulation purpose is for Israel and wickedness. Noah was saved, Lot was saved from wrath. Verses about being hidden from his wrath and the time to come:
    Is. 26:21, Ps. 27:5, Zeph. 2:3

  • regen,

    Ye do err not knowing the scriptures nor th ePower of God!

    Here is II Thes 2:1-4

    2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
    2Th 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
    2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
    2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    NOTICE, Paul CLEARLY equates the GATHERING of Christians to the Lord and the DAY of the Lord as the SAME! ALSO, Paul clearly states that WE WILL NOT BE GATHERED TO THE LORD UNTIL THE MAN OF PERDITION IS REVELAED AND DECLARES HIMSELF TO BE GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD!

    You are wrong again.

    No, there is not a sentance in the Bible where Jesus says , I AM GOD!.

    However, in John 8 He has a rather long dissertation and states that NOT ONLY did He know Abraham but the HE was IAM!

    Heb 1 says Father God called Jesus God. John 1 says the WORD is God and the WORD became Jesus CHrist.

    Only a very deceived person would argue about those proofs. SO, the Bible does say that Jesus is God.

    You false argument about there not being another statement in the BIble that says the Church is gathered to the Lord PRIOR to the tribulation is just that, FALSE and A LIE. You are promoting a lie, that makes you a liar and NO LIAR has eternal life in them.

    YOu are twisting the scriptures to PROVE your doctrine NOT finding out what the scriptures teach and believing that!

    Once again, you have proven that pre tribbers are liars and deceivers and are themselves deluded.

    Good day!

  • I think it is a good thing that we all come here to have a cival disscussion about our lord God, the father…It at least promotes thinking about God and disscussing the Bible, and thats always good. As long as you keep trying to find the truth and you really want the truth then if you are compleatly sincere then God will come into your heart and save you. The thing about a pre-trib rapture is that the bible has been edited so many times by people that may not be true beleivers that just maybe the passages Dirk has been looking for have been edited out. I dont beleive that God will want true beleivers who try the best they can in the society that we live in to suffer needlessly. I beleive we are living close to the end times…but no one knows the exact hour or day…Thats why it is good that people keep searching…keep searching for the meaning of God….But remember that we are just human and fall far short of the glory of God…No one can understand the mind of God…I think maybe the Book of Daniel has not been entirely opened yet…When it is we will finally know…and you will feel it in your heart if you are a true beleiver. We, who are the true beleivers must not worry ourselves sick over this….Because God tells us not to worry. God will make everything right in his time…So keep your faith….keep searching…let God live in you and follow his comandments…and you dont have to worry…Remember it will all happen when God is ready…God bless you all…keep up the wonderful disscussion…and do something nice for someone everyday…In the name of God our father…forget all your worries and enjoy the life God gave us…Learn those things God wants you to learn in this life and you will be fine….Thanks for reading this too!

  • Troy,

    You seem to promote nice sentiment. However, it is misplaced and in error.

    Who said we must suffer needlessly? There are ALWAYS reasons we will suffer, or do you forget that Jesus PROMISED His disciples would suffer at the hands of men? THAT IS A REAL PROMISE!

    So you think something so important as the fact that there are more than one gatherings of God’s people was removed or left out of the bible? That would mean the Bible is unreliable.

    Go figure.

    You don’t really know the Bible very well, do you Troy?

    Why did Stephen suffer? WHy did Paul suffer? Why did ALL of the apostles die by the hand of persecutors except one?

    Have you not read Acts? You really must not believe the Bible at all.

    I never said I knew everything. I asked for these people who believe in a PRE TRIB RAPTURE HOW they can do so when there are contradictory passages all through the New Testament that say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a pre trib rapture to take place.

    So, I have asked them to show me where the Bible says what they believe. They cannot do it. All they can show is conjecture, inference, and the twisting of verses that say NOTHING LIKE what they want those verse to say, such as Rev 4: 1 says absolutely NOTHING about the Church be gathered to the Lord, EXCEPT in their own minds because they WANT it to say that. It doesn’t but that is what they want it to say.

    SO, there is NO PLACE in the Bible that says there will be a pre trib gathering of God’s people to Himself. ALL of their supposed proofs are false and lies.

    If that bothers you that I have spoken the truth, that is your own problem!

    The ONLY REASON I have continued to post here is because I care about all of these people and I do not want to see them deceived and possibly end up under the influence of the man of perdition.

    If they want to be deceived, as it seems they do, that is between them and God!

  • well said, Troy. very well said.

  • SO, sm,

    You agree with Troy that the Bible is UNRELIABLE?????

    You want to be deceivd as well????

    How very sad!

  • if you would like to know the real time table of Hashem study the festivals and sabbath….everyone says we dont know the day or hour…but if you knew that rosh hashanah is a festival that last two days but is called one long day…it is also called feast of trumpets… the awakening blast. There are many scriptures in the old and new testament that show pictures of this happening and the catching away of the bride. also mi including a summary of the ancient Jewish wedding festival which is also a picture of the catching away of the bride. You have to see everything written was written by Jews to Jews…with Jewish idioms and such…..if you truly want to see it you have to change the “christian” way of thinking…you will be amazed at what Hashem shows you if you really want it…this was written by my day a few years ago…hope you enjoy…let the spirit of Hashem(truth) show you…

    Ancient Jewish Wedding Ceremony Aug 21, ’07 3:39 PM

    by ahavah4 for everyone

    The Jewish Wedding Ceremony.

    Bob Wells

    Elohym [G-d], has a Bride, Israel.
    Yeshua will receive a Bride Chosen by the Spirit.
    As in the Bible parallel story of choosing a Bride for Yacov. Abraham [high Father], Eliezar [G-ds’ Aid, His Spirit], and Yacov, [“thine only son”] and Rebekah, [Rivqah], [fettering by beauty]. Eliezer came with 10 camels filled with gifts to secure a Bride for Isaac. Eliezer means: comforter, helper, and is a picture of the Spirit of Holiness, G-d Himself.

    This study is not a Christian concoction,

    but IS the ancient Jewish custom of engagement and marriage, with many of the same customs present today.

    There were three ways that a bride was chosen.

    1)Some marriages were arranged by the Father of the potential bridegroom, as Sampsons father did.

    2)an Agent working on behalf of the Father, as the servant of Abraham [above] brought Rebecca back for Isaac,

    3)At marrying age a young man might choose his own bride, as Jacob chose Rachel.

    To obtain His bride a man would go to the young maidens home carrying three things. A large sum of money (

    purchase price) a betrothal Contract, and a skin of wine. Of course anyone coming to your door bearing these items would have already revealed his intentions. He would request the hand of a certain maiden, from her father. The purchase price, or Gifts, would be discussed, (Gen 24:10), and the contract or Marriage Covenant, would be laid out. Finally, a glass of wine would be poured. If the father approved, the young lady would be called. If she approved then she drank the wine, thereby agreeing to the betrothal. The Groom would give gifts to His betrothed, and from here on it is as if they were already married, although the marriage has not yet been consummated.

    The Bride now, would begin to prepare herself for life with her betrothed. She would learn of His customs, His dress, His Likes and dislikes. She would learn all there is to be a perfect wife and Bride. After the wine had been drank the young man would tell his betrothed that he would now “go and prepare a place for her

    .”Where and what is this Place [Makom] that is prepared for us? Rev 21: 2 And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [To see this place go to my HomePage… http://groups.msn.com/AHAVA/ahava.msnw

    The Bridegroom designates “two close friends” to assist Him in securing his Bride and during the actual ceremony. These two are known as “Friends of the Bridegroom” and function as “TWO WITNESSES,” required for a Jewish Wedding. One of the Witnesses was appointed to bring and assist, or teach the bride. The other is with the Bridegroom.

    There was a Third Person involved. He is called The Comforter. In the case of a bridegroom choosing a bride from a distant area, he would send a close friend to obtain and teach his prospective bride all of His customs. His likes and dislikes, His Faith, the food he liked and everything that she should know of Him. Eliezer came with 10 camels filled with gifts to secure a Bride for Isaac. Eliezer means: comforter, helper, and is a picture of the Holy Spirit of G-d. The one who leads the Bride to the Bridegrrom [as Eliezar did] is therefore called ‘The Comforter’.

    In ancient Israel families lived in the same city for generations, (as different tribes). The place that he would prepare for His bride would be an extension on his Fathers House. This place would be called the Chadar, or Wedding Chamber. Because most young men would be in a hurry to go and bring the young maiden home, he might be inclined to rush his construction of the Chadar. To ensure that it would be suitable for the Bride, the bridegroom could not go and get his Bride until His Father was satisfied. The people in his village would, after seeing this construction going on, realize that there is to be “a marriage in Israel.” Whenever the villagers would ask, “when are you going to bring your Bride home,” He would answer “No one knows but My Father.” Once the Father has approved that all was ready, the son was allowed to go for His Bride.

    The Bride was expected to be ready and waiting for her Bridegroom. The Bridegroom would come with a great procession usually after sunset, therefore the need for oil in your lamps. There would be dancing, singing

    , “a shout” [Heb.. T’ruah], and a blowing of the Trumpet, to announce the coming of the Bridegroom. The taking of the bride was always done suddenly. The Bridegroom would come and quickly snatch her away. She must be ready for she knows not when.

    Before the wedding ceremony they both undergo a “Mikvah,” or immersion, (Baptism) a cleansing. During the ceremony, known as Kedushin, a second contract is brought called the Ketubah. This contract was witnessed by the friends of the Bridegroom and turned over to the parents of the Bride. It contained the promises pledged to His Wife.

    The Bride is then taken to the Fathers house where the wedding takes place. The Bride and Groom were the focus of all attention, and for this one-day, were compared to a

    King and Queen. The bride was lifted up and carried around to the ceremony. On this day, tradition says, their sins are forgiven, they stand pure, and without spot or blemish. The Bride and Groom would stand under a canopy, or in Hebrew, a Chupah, here the ceremony takes place.

    After the ceremony the two of them enter the wedding chamber, which is also considered to be a Chupah. When the Bride is brought to the wedding chamber the bride and the Bridegroom retire there for ”

    Seven Days,” which is what we call the honeymoon.” This is the “fulfill her week” spoken of in Gen 29:26-28 (Jacob and Leah). This is the seven years of tribulation.

    Psa 19:5 Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber [Chuppah], [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

    Joel 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet [chuppah]

    The Friend of the Bridegroom stands at the door to the wedding chamber waiting for the Bridegroom to announce

    His pleasure over His Bride, and that all is well. At this point there is great shout that “There is a Marriage in Israel,” and the rejoicing begins.

    John
    3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. John’s joy is fulfilled because HE is the Friend of the Bridegroom who standeth by the door.

    After the seven days of the honeymoon the Bridegroom and the Bride would come forth from the chambers and return to the Brides House. (Joel 2:16 …. let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.) This is where the Marriage Supper or Feast is held after the judgements.Rev. 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God

    John 14:2,3 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. [Mansions # 3438 (mon’ay) a staying, ie: residence, abode, mansion.]

    And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him

    AMEIN

    Remember this study is not a Christian concoction, but IS the ancient Jewish custom of engagement and marriage, with many of the same customs present today.

  • we have to be wise and diligent servants tho….Everything that Yeshua taught and walked….his disciples taught and walked….the festivals and sabbath they celebrated…the commandments they followed….and all that messiah fulfilled was through the tanach (first five books,Torah….writings and the prophets). They had no new testament back then. Yes it is true we are justified through faith but after that we are to become obedient to his words( following saturday sabbath, commandments, festivals). Many people say that we are not under the law anymore which is so far from the truth. “Christians” have come so far from seeing the face of G-d. They believe once saved always saved. We as gentiles have been grafted into the branch. We have not taken over the branch. Replacement theology is a big no no. The idea that Hashem started a new religion after the death of Yeshua is a very scary position to be in… In the last days it will be required to celebrate certain feasts and such. If your spirit really wants to know do some research. So why will we celebrate certain things? because they are appointment of G-d. Not appointments of the Jews… appointments of G-d. These are things all men ..both Jew and gentile will partake in. So Hashem did things one way…sees a problem…changes to “christianity”….but will again change his mind back to the things of old? I think not…It also says “in those days” men will grab a hold of a jewish mans skirt and say we know that G-d is with you. Why is it not said they will grab a hold of a preacher or a gentile? Because the Jews have the oracles of G-d (torah). And it was for them to teach us, not the other way around. let those that have ears….

  • If there is no pre trib rapture then the BIBLE contradicts itself. The BIBLE does not contradict itself! The pre trib rapture is so clear and obvious. If you do not believe this portion of the BIBLE I will just beat some of you home by up to seven years.

  • Where is it so clear?

    Why do you refuse to answer the questions I have asked?

    If you cannot answer them WITH SCRIPTURES, then a pre trib rapture is IMPOSSIBLE!

    AND, you will beat NO ONE HOME, we all go together AFTER the Dead in Christ are raised FIRST!

    It is the FIRST RESURRECTION!

  • SavedByGrace

    Dirk,

    I happened across this discussion in my search for something else. Curious about how such a conversation might go, I decided to read through the posts. My heart was warmed by a great many comments. Clearly the love of God is working through some of these people. I can’t wait for my relationship with God to bring me to that place.

    What I found though is that what should have been a conversation has turned into a platform…well, more accurately…a judgement seat. Remember that the Word of God is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that God meets us where we are at in our “knowledge of Him.” As our love for Him grows, His voice becomes more clear. The Holy Spirit will speak to us imparting revelatory knowledge. As we draw nearer to God, we will receive more revelation of Him. Someone else cannot reveal the truth of God to you, it is personal between God and you.

    What always stands in the way of his voice is our own pride, which you made mention of in one of your posts. Your indignation at the pre- or mid-tribulation view is clear by the very aggressive stance you’ve taken throughout the thread. But because the position you’ve taken in your posts was not mixed with love, it felt prideful. It’s hard to hear the voice of God when we are not humble, as a servant of Almighty God should be.

    So I say all this to say that as you cast judgement on those who choose the pre- or mid-tribulation belief, you are in no way acting as a messenger of God. God does not deal harshly, but in love, with those who seek to understand the word of God with a humble heart. It’s our faith that God honors. A hopeful view of Jesus’ return ( the Blessed Hope) is not a lie of the enemy, as the scripture, absent of the inspiration of God, is not clear either way. A lie of the enemy is to preach there is any other way to eternal life besides salvation through Jesus Christ…and the scripture is quite clear here. God seeks a relationship with each and every one of us individually. If that is the message you minister to someone, than they alone are accountable to God for the true intentions of their heart, not you.

    I do hope that as you grow in the knowledge of God that your indignation turns to temperance, a fruit of the Spirit, “against such there is no law (only grace, a free gift from God to all those that trust in Jesus Christ), and they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.” (Galations 5:23-26)

    With love…

  • Tell that to Ananias and Sapphira.

    How little you know.

    You use flowerly words of human reasoning and ignore the righteous indignation of God to those who refuse to listen and accuse and accuse and accuse.

    Read over your words with an unbiased mind and you will see your accusation, JUST as you ignore ALL of the accusation made against my reasonable questions.

    You hide from the truth and do not recognize the REALITY of God’s severity. You know NOTHING of Him, except man’s ideas of warm and fuzzy comfort.

    How little you recognize or understand or believe that it is with GREAT TRIBULATION AND TRIAL we enter the Kingdom of God.

    You know NOTHING of this. You have fallen for another gospel and Paul, Peter, John, and Jesus would tell you this to your face.

    You do not know what love is!

  • I have been praying about your post Savedbygrace,

    You sure have forgotten your Bible.

    I STRONGLY SUGGEST you get your BIble and READ Revelation 2 & 3 about 20 times and see just how much Jesus speaks about walking in obedience and the result of not doing so.

    Then go read the Sermon on the Mount about 20 times (that is Matt 5-7, BTW) and see the REQUIREMENTS Jesus Himself gives for those who follow Him and what the PUNISHMENT will be for those who DO NOT OBEY His Teachings in Matt 5-7

    No, you do not know the Lord very well at all. You are looking at the plastic Jesus so many Churches have you place on the dashboard of your car!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Dirk,

    I feel as though you are being held bondage by legalism. Anyone who views God the way you have would have trouble loving him. I’m sure you could quote Old Testament scripture about the fear of the Lord, but it wouldn’t bring you closer to him.

    For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” (Romans 8:15)

  • Dirk,

    I feel led to make one more point. You emphasized obedience to God’s Word more than once. This is obviously important to you. Jesus said the following in Matthew 22:37-40:

    “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

    Moving along in my point…

    “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, It Keeps No Record of Wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” (I Corinthians 13:4-7)

    And so to show love is to demonstrate the love the Father has for us, as it is written…

    “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.” (I John 4:7-14)

    That is the God I know, having been saved by Jesus Christ and filled with the Spirit of God, confirmed through the speaking of tongues, as I know you weren’t confident I am truly saved. As Jesus said before his ascension, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” (Mark 16:16-18)

    God Bless You and Keep You

    • SB Grace, you last few replies to Dirk were no proof for the PTR. They were a diversion as IMO I don’t think you can actually answer what Dirk keeps asking or what I & a few others have posted.

      We all have posted direct statements that blow the PTR to heck & gone.

      NONE of you followers have replied to our refutations with ANY direct scriptural statements. All you have used is, & I repeat, is esigesis.

      WHY WHY WHY??

      SamFox

      SamFox

  • SavedbyGrace,

    AH, you are deluded and deceived.

    Funny, people like you say I am legalistic and those who follow the Law think I am promoting slippery grace.

    Again, you do not know the Bible very well at all.

    Suggest you read Matt 5-7 a few times and see what JESUS HIMSELF REQUIRES OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM!.

    you can add I Cor 6, Gal 5, and I John 3 to that !

    Oh, those are from the NEW TESTAMENT and the authors were Apostles taught by Jesus. You have not been. I think you had better start listening to them.

  • Dirk,

    Sadly, you’ve missed the mark when it comes to the true nature of God.

    I know you’ve spent a great deal of time “battling” the lies in this thread so it may not seem important at this point. But I’d ask that as you frame your response that you try to explain how these chapters (no reference to verses, unfortunately) are to enlighten me.

  • One more thing Dirk,

    Another sign of pride is the itching need to have the last word…

  • “Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Greet one another with an holy kiss. All the saints salute you.

    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (2 Corinthians 13:11-14)

  • Dirk,

    I reviewed the Sermon on the Mount per your request. I wanted to thank you for referring me to those chapters for review. It’s been a couple weeks since I’ve read it.

    I had a revelation while reading it that I wanted to share with you and as you read what I’ve said, I hope you’ll reread Matthew 5-7 as well…but with what I’ve said in mind. I’d also like you to reread my post on God’s kind of love (post #195) because it speaks to what I’m about to say.

    In the Old Testament, God was very frustrated with His people. They were often times unfaithful, and with the giving of the Law, they operated out of obligation, not love. They could not understand. So when Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount, He was revealing the nature of God. If you look closely at the Sermon, you’ll notice that every single point Jesus made came back to love. If we love God and our neighbor, we would not break the Law. We would not tithe out of obligation, for God does not need our money. We would not participate in vain repititions but would praise and worship God, as He deserves. For God is a spirit and they that worship him must do so in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). We would operate in faith, not worrying about the things of the natural, but rather,focus on the promises of the things of the supernatural that God has given us by His grace. He asked us not to succumb to fleshly temptations to judge (a legalist mentality), or worse, partake. And finally, he asked us to take heed to those that are workers of iniquity, that is to say, those who would have us to live in the natural, fulfilling fleshly desires.

    But here is the best part of this revelation, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (I Corinthians 13:12-13) That is to say, that for now we live by faith, hope and love, but we will be transformed at his coming, whereby, we will no longer need faith and hope, but rest in love. And so I ask you to review my post #195. As I said, God is love and everything he asks of us is out of love. If we sin, we will live a life separated from him. We will not be able to hear His voice. We need to repent of our poor choices as we are led by the Spirit. And that is to preserve us as God’s sons and daughters. It is out of love.

    If you still feel the same after this post, I feel saddened, but I know I’ve done the best I could to show you God’s true nature. If I’ve touched the heart of even one other person, I’ll have done what God has asked. To God be the Glory!

  • Love also corrects, chastizes, and disciplines.

    NONE of these are PLEASANT at the moment, BUT IF THEY ARE SUBMITTED TO, then the peaceable FRUIT of RIGHTEOUSNESS results.

    Obviously , you know nothing of this because all you can see is nicey, nicey, warm, fuzzy side!

    That means, that you are a bastard Child because, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, since you are not receiving this kind of love, you are NONE OF HIS!

  • Dirk,

    I’m going to assume that you’ve never had children or you have not read “Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.” (Colossians 3:21) Or any other scripture referring to the way we are to treat children or wives for that matter. When you look up chastize or discipline, you find no reference to abandon (for he will never leave us nor forsake us), or subject to harm (for he is our Shepherd), or kill us as a means of entry into the Kingdom of Heaven…that would be works…and it’s self-righteous for you to assume that you must in some way earn His grace to receive salvation. Again, I do feel you are either under the curse of legalism or simply toying with me. Whichever it is, I leave you with this (from the Apostle Paul)

    “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is NEITHER BOND nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:24-29)

    Peace be with you as you continue in your walk as a Bondslave (“That because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.” (Galatians 2:4-5))

  • Why do you assume?

    How foolish you are.

    YOu ignore the scriptures teaching man’s ideas as though they came from God. AND STILL you have not received correction.

    GOOD BYE, you may rant to your heart’s content. BUT you contradict the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD, taking only those portions you like and agree with as though the rest of the Bible is meaningless. IT ALL must agree with your doctrines and your doctrines CONTRADICT the Bible as does the Doctrine of a Pre Trib Rapture!

  • For Those Whose Hearts Are Pure,

    The prophetic scriptures in Jeremiah say the following

    Jeremiah 29:8-19

    “For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.

    For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, THOUGHTS OF PEACE, AND NOT EVIL, TO GIVE YOU AN EXPECTED END. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

    Because ye have said, The LORD hath raised us up prophets in Babylon; Know that thus saith the LORD of the king that sitteth upon the throne of David, and of all the people that dwelleth in this city, AND OF YOUR BRETHREN THAT ARE NOT GONE FORTH WITH YOU INTO CAPTIVITY; Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I WILL SEND UPON THEM THE SWORD, THE FAMINE, AND THE PESTILENCE, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil. AND I WILL PERSECUTE THEM WITH THE SWORD, WITH THE FAMINE, AND WITH THE PESTILENCE, AND WILL DELIVER THEM TO BE REMOVED TO ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE EARTH, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them: Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.”

    And of course, as God never changes, he did the same for Noah and his family, Lot and his family, Joseph’s family and so on.

    Those that do not heed the Word of God, who do not live by faith through Jesus Christ, will be Left Behind to endure the wrath that is to come along with the unbelievers:

    “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” (1 Thessalonians 1:10)

    “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” (Luke 21:36)

    As described in Revelations 3:15-19 where it declares:

    “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.”

    And those are “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; (Revelations 20:4)”

  • For those that would dispute by pointing to the needless suffering and persecution facing Christians around the world as Jesus had warned of, I’d like to add this to bring a new face to this issue.

    God does not force his will on us; He does not usurp our will. He will not break His own laws in regards to human will even if it causes harm to a Christian because he is righteous. If we remain faithful, even to the end, we have shown love towards the Father.

    So throughout history, as evil men have done wickedly towards Christians, God did not take pleasure in this, even as you and I would not take pleasure in seeing our children die on our behalf. He took pleasure that they did not give up the faith. And this is not to be confused with God’s wrath which shall come upon the Earth. He does not inflict his wrath on his children.

    I’d like to explain the time issue that causes people to believe there is in fact a two part resurrection. Time is God’s creation, and in the time of Adam, it was controlled by man, but now time controls man. We see time differently than God does, this is written in the scripture as such.

    As the end of time draws near, the Son of God will descend on the Earth to collect His people, those dead and living; they will be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus, for “I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” (Revelation 18:4-5)

    “Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

    But I need you to note that in Revelation 6:9-11, it says the following:

    “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar THE SOULS OF THEM THAT WERE SLAIN FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND FOR THE TESTIMONY WHICH THEY HELD: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST YET FOR A LITTLE SEASON, UNTIL THEIR FELLOWSERVANTS ALSO AND THEIR BRETHREN, THAT SHOULD BE KILLED AS THEY WERE, SHOULD BE FULFILLED.” Their are those that are dead under the altar of God before those that would suffer the Great Tribulation.

    Now time changes as we descend into the heavens, any scientist can tell you this. So what may seem to us to have to be the very end, after the Great Tribulation, would not be so to God.

    “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10)

    So as Jesus is descending to Earth, from Eternity, he will gather his people. As he descends from the clouds on His white horse, “then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth TO THE UTTERMOST PART OF HEAVEN.” (Mark 13:27) With His Glorious Appearing, He will gather all those from the uttermost part of Earth to be with those from the uttermost part of heaven.

    And so after Jesus has defeated the enemy, and has locked him away for 1,000 years, it says in scripture in Revelations 20:4:

    “AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT UPON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

    For it is written: “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” (1 Corinthians 6:2)

  • The bible does say some specific things and for a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation. Where is it?

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all! Where is it?

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 First Resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20:1-4 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib. AND the passage in Revelation DOES refer to a resurrection occurring AFTER the End of the Tribulation for in that passage, it speaks of those who were beheaded for Christ AND of those who REFUSED the MARK of the Beast. So, where in the bible is another FIRST RESURRECTION?

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 20:1-4 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib. Where is PROOF, please post the verses.

    NOW, once more, I ask ALL OF YOU, where is your proof? If you cannot provide it, then you are promoting a lie!

    Can you answer these questions? I know you cannot. You say what you preach is biblical so PROVE that it is by answering the above questions.

    If you cannot answer these questions, then there is no biblical evidence of a pre- trib rapture. It doesn’t matter how loud or how many times you say there is, the bible does NOT agree with you!

    BTW, the TRIBULATION is NOT God’s wrath against the world. IT IS SATAN’s War against the Saints of God!

    How foolish you are teaching man’s ideas as the commandments of God. Jesus said this about you>>>>

    Matt 7: 13Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.

    14But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.

    15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.

    16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?

    17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.

    18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].

    19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.

    20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

    21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

    22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

    23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

    SO SAYS JESUS CHRIST and you are speaking against HIS OWN WORDS! Therefore, you will be judged BY HIS OWN WORDS!

    Thus says the Lord!

  • To all those confused by this issue of whose wrathful, let me refer you to the prophetic scripture of Zephaniah in chapter 1, but be forewarned, it requires the Holy Spirit to bear witness.

    “The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.

    I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.

    I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.

    I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;

    And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;

    And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor inquired for him.

    Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

    AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE DAY OF THE LORD’S SACRIFICE, [Jesus is that sacrifice] that I will punish the princes, and the king’s children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel. [Those who do not possess the Holy Spirit]

    In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters’ houses with violence and deceit.

    And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.

    Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.

    And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. [The Laodicean Church]

    Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.

    The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

    That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

    A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

    And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

    Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. “

  • And the reference in Matthew to fruit is in regards to the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

  • “Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.” (Zephaniah 2:3)

  • How little you know anything about the Bible.

    FIRST we do not interpret the New Testament by the OLD. NO. The Old is a shadow of the NEW.

    Then we are told in the OLD TESTAMENT and then the NEW TESTAMENT>>>>

    Dan 7: 16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

    17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

    19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

    20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    THEN>>>>

    Revelation 13:6-8
    6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Hmmm, HOW can the beast make war on the saints if they are raptured? But you will twist this to your own detriment as well.

    And all you have done is proven what I have repeatedly said, YOU ARE ALL DECEIVED!

  • Prophecy is not a shadow of anything because it has yet to happen. And many of the Old Testament prophets speak of the same thing end for this world, which only serves to confirm it. Everything described by these prophets was confirmed by John the Revelator.

    Just to clarify, the New Testament, or New Covenant, is to differentiate it from the previous dispensation, the Old Testament, or Old Covenant. God never changes. The Old Testament, or Mosaic Law, is a natural-minded description of the New Testament, which is to love God and our neighbor. There is no deviation. God is one and the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

    In any case, people will be saved during the Great Tribulation as mentioned in Revelations and those are the saints referenced.

  • As I said, you are decievd, you contradict the scriptures and FULL COUNSEL of God
    BYE BYE

  • Dirk,
    You can’t convince these people…….they have it ALL figured out. Trust me, I used to be someone who believed all sorts of things the Bible does NOT teach becuz I grew up on false doctrines and all my pastors and teachers told me it was true! The Bible clearly never teaches a “secret rapture” – its NOT in there. Any time someone says, “I CAN’T prove it, but this pastor can with all of his greek and hebrew knowledge” that’s a RED FLAG. Why do you believe in a doctrine that you can’t defend???? A doctrine this big should be easy to spot! And besides tribulation goes on every, single, solitary day in the middle east, China, North Korea, India, the list goes on and on and on……..Christians being tortured, mutilated, killed becuz of Jesus. THEY are living out the tribulation. But the U.S. Christians don’t want to see these things………they don’t want to suffer. (Look up Voice of the Martyrs) I’m not sure its a dangerous doctrine to believe in (secret rapture) but I just don’t wanna believe a lie. But if it works for you well……..go on with your bad self…..;)

  • Dear Whatever,

    I know. They have continually proven this time after time by ignoring all the question I and a couple of others have asked and all of their accusations against us, proving who they actually follow.

    But in the hope that one or two may have their eyes opened by their humbling themselves, i post.

    God bless!

  • From someone who taught, preached & defended the PreTribulation Rapture before for 35+ years, but couldn’t reconcile certain passages of scriptures nor answer certain questions to support the Pre-Trib, and no longer does. It would be way too lengthly to propound an exegegitical hermenuetical correct hypothesis and execute an accurate interpretative analysis of comparative theoritical contextualism here. I am convinced after restudying the Bible and these subjects in great detail that the Church will suffer persecution & tribulation, but will not endure the Wrath of God nor the Day of the Lord. We will not receive or experience the 7 Bowl Judgments. But we will endure great tribulation. Better get ready & prepared, it’s coming soon. (within 21 years) From the White Horse Rider to the beginning of the 1st Bowl or right or immediately prior we will be removed. This is not a Mid-Trib believer nor a Post-Trib teacher. No Secret Instantaneous Rapture (Disappearance). Where do you find in scripture where Apostle Paul taught instant disappearance? The word is not found in the greek in that context. The only place is found where Jesus was on the road to Emmaus and suddenly was no longer with them (the two disciples). Lu.24:31. He also did not vanish until after their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. In I Cor. 15:52 doesn’t say we will secretly disappear, it says we will all be changed/transformed in an instant – immediately within the twinkle of an eye – One one-billionth of a blink. Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, Philip, Apostle Paul were caught up suddenly, but didn’t disappear, except Jesus which moved spiritually from location to location or became invisible. When Jesus finally ascended after 40 days he didn’t suddenly disappear from their sight but was caught up into the air as the Disciples strained to continue viewing him as he was lifted up and was raised up into the upper atmosphere. He will descend in like or similar fashion. To be caught up suddenly is not the same as appearing or disappearing before your very eyes like Jesus, who appeared in the Upper Room without physically walking into through a physical wood door and then suddenly disappearing or becoming invisible to his disciples. This spiritual ability doesn’t take effect until after we are changed. And we don’t ‘rapture’ ourselves either! He will catch us up not we ourselves! The Bible does not teach a sudden invisible immediate disappearance. The Bible does teach a sudden return of Jesus [an unexpected sudden appearing; least when you expect it], and a sudden immediate marvelous miraculous transformation of our bodies to be made like unto his glorious resurrected body. But we will all be seen by those who despise us and didn’t believe our story (preaching). We will all ascend as he did to meet him in the air, but only after the dead in Christ are raised up from the graves in the ground, are transformed, made with new physical glorious non-corruptible eternal bodies, and then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them – in the sight & full view of our enemies – to ascend to Christ. This is death being swallowed up in victory and sin no longer having a sting by the law. This is the adoption of our bodies, the sons of God being made manifest – before the enemies of God. God does not need to secretly snatch us away in the case the enemy can stop him! God is not afraid of the Devil knowing or seeing(viewing) us be transformed and carried up into heaven to meet with Christ. The Devil cannot stop this! This actually is the blaring trumpet of victory declaring the Enemy has no more power over our bodies! The Voice of Christ is like a Trumpet declaring us free from the power of sin and physical death! Way more to come when I get my website fully up and running and finish my books to be published in the future regarding and pertaining to Revelation & the Rapture, and Transformation of the Saints.

  • Dear TFS,

    Does everything you are saying above AGREE 100% with Jesus>>>>>

    Matt 24: 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].

    31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.

    Since what you said DOES NOT AGREE 100% with Jesus, it is false, just as false as a pre-trib rapture!

    Either it agrees 100% with ALL the scriptures that speak on when we will be gathered to the Lord or it is false!

  • To clarify: The word “rapture” means “filled with estatic joy”. We will therefore be “rapt” when our Lord Jesus Christ appears again from the cloud (cloud of witnesses).

    Jesus also went nowhere. He just “dissapeared” into a cloud, which is the cloud of witnessess.
    Heaven is not a place, but a ‘realm’ or a ‘state of being’. Christ is therefore in ‘heaven’ but that ‘heaven’ is also in earth. What happened to Bro Paul on his way to Damascus? He was ‘rapt’ to ‘heaven’, which means, his spirit man was transferred from from his body into a ‘Godly realm [heaven] so that Jesus could speak to him. That is way his companions were so confussed because they saw his body on the groud and heard a voice, but they could not see anyone. Later Bro Paul wrote about this when he wrote in 1 Cor 15:8. “And at last of all he was seen of me also, as one born out of due time,” You see, Paul saw Jesus, but his companions not. Where was Paul? He was with them on earth but he was also with Christ in ‘heaven’. And again 1 Cor 12:2 he wrote about him being ‘caught up in heaven’. He wrote that he did not know if it was him AND his body or him (his soul) alone, but he was in heaven. Still, according to Acts 8, his companions SAW HIS BODY on the ground, while they heard the voice and saw the bright light. Is heaven not His Kingdom? Now Jesus told His disciples to pray as follows: “Our Father who art in heaven. Hellowed be Thy Name. They kingdom come, Thy will be done, on EARTH as it IS (done) in heaven.”
    I do not believe in a ‘rapture’ of our earthly bodies into heaven, but that I will experience an estatic joy of being in His presence, when He appears from the cloud (of witnesses). Then I will be protected by His glory and will join Him in this cloud to become also part of it, as Jesus is.

    The ‘last’ enemy to be destroyed is death. What death? What about immortallity? Man was created to live forever. God gave Adam the choice of life or death. remember the 2 trees in the middle of Eden? Adam made the wrong choice and choose death. Christ came to restore humankind into His fullness. He gave us everlasting life. Is this only Spiritual life? How did Christ died on the cross? Spiritually? He died in the flesh and His Spirit moved on. God raised Him from death by raising His fleshly body! Only after He took the Blood and shed it in front of the Father, did His Spirit returned to His body. Can Jesus die again? Never. Where is Christ? He is in me and you. Remember: Christ IN me the hope of glory!

    Do you belief this?

    The problem is, do you believe this?

  • Brother Dirk, stand firm! i have not met anyone that puts this particular false doctrine to shame like you do. you remind me of Elijah on mount carmel taunting the false prophets of bale. keep it up! maybe someone here will actually start reading their bibles and stop being fed by preachers who have an agenda to fleece and control them. but wait a minute, thats 99.9% of america. here is something i wrote several years ago about the return of Christ and the rapture, it has a lot of scripture lest anyone say i am taking things out of context

    Will we go through the great tribulation?

    Author : Edward Blaize with the inspiration of the Holy ghost.

    so will we? lets see what the bible says. please refer to your own bibles, i will be quoting some scriptures here, and all will come from the King James version. All i ask anyone is to look at the scriptures here and reject the traditions & teachings of man if those teachings contradict the bible.

    Matthew 24
    lines 4-31

    “4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
    10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
    23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25Behold, I have told you before.
    26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    Theres a great deal of information in these passages of mathew, but lets break it down simply. line 9 states that we will be afflicted, put to death, and hated for His name. line 21 says that there will be great tribulation thats never been this bad and never will be again. this is it, the great tribulation. line 22 says for the elects sake the days will be shortened, the elect are the believers. line 24-26 says there will be many false christs and dont follow them, and 27 says that Jesus will appear instantaneously like a lightning strike. Now line 29 couldn’t be any clearer, it says immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, AFTER, not before or during, but AFTER. line 21 already established it is the great one, the worst, never this bad before this time, and never again this bad. line 30 says “and then” meaning at the time right after the events of line 29, we will see the sign of Jesus in the heavens, and then Jesus will come with power and great glory. line 31 says “And” meaning at the same time as line 30, he shall send his angels with the great sound of a trumpet and gather the elect. Now this is a description of meeting Jesus in the clouds, it doesnt say which trumpet, but it says at the sound of a trumpet. so lets look at 1st Thessalonians for a clearer picture of the rapture.

    1 Thessalonians 4 lines 13-18
    13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    These passages in the bible contain a wonderful promise, and that is Jesus will return for his people, it even gives us a clue as to when, just as mathew 24:31 does and with the same language. it says “with the trump of God” which is nearly identical to “at the great sound of a trump” contained in mathew 24:31. it says some other things that are the same too, the dead will be 1st, and then we who are left will meet Jesus in the clouds. it is clear these two passages are talking about the same event. but they don’t say which trumpet do they? However, 1st Corinthians 15:52 does. i will put the whole section here for context.

    1 Corinthians 15 lines 50-58
    50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

    Now, just as in Mathew 24:27, the beginning of line 52 in 1st Corinthians states it will happen instantly. Next is the key, it says at the sound of the LAST trump. This is critical, as numerous other verses just say at the sound of a trumpet, this verse actually tells us which trumpet it is. this too is the same event in mathew chapter 24:31. it also mentions the dead will be changed 1st just as 1st thessalonians. these three passages clearly are speaking of the same event. Now lets go deeper, lets look at the trumpets for a bit. i will put them all here beginning with the 7th seal, you will see why in a bit.

    Revelation 8
    1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
    2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
    3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
    4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
    5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
    6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
    7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
    8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
    9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
    10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
    11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
    12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
    13And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

    Now what i want you to see is that the 7th seal is the very act of blowing the 7 trumpets. so the trumpets take place after the seals, after all God is a God of order. another thing the reader needs to understand is how terrible the events are during the blowing of the trumpets. the rest follow.

    Revelation 9
    1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
    2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
    3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
    7And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
    8And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
    9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
    10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
    11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
    12One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
    13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
    14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
    15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
    16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
    17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
    18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
    19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
    20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
    21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

    Again, more terrible and horrible things, and yet the last trump hasnt sounded, and keep in mind the last trump is when the rapture takes place according to 1st Corinthians 15:52. and another thing to note, this chapter of revelations mentions all those who aren’t sealed by God will be tormented and tortured by locusts and scorpians, which means all those who have received the mark of the beast.

    Revelation 10
    1And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
    2And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
    3And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
    4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
    5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
    6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
    7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
    9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
    10And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
    11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

    Now the 7th angel hasn’t sounded yet, and in line 7 it says that when the 7th angel sounds there will be time no more. this is it in other words. The end of days so to speak. Now lets move on to the 7th trumpet.

    Revelation 11
    1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
    7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
    12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    Now the rapture itself isnt mentioned here in the 7th trumpet, but does it have to be? it says clearly that at the sound of the LAST trump we will be caught up, and all these scriptures tie together describing the same events, each giving a bit of different detail.
    Lines 3-12 are speaking very clearly of the 2 end time prophets that will be used mightily of God, and this occurs after the abomination of desolation as we all know from other prophesies, and yet the last trumpet wasn’t blown until line 15. So all these things take place before the return of Christ to reign forever and ever. So i ask you again, will Christians go through the tribulation? i think you can tell me now.

    Now indulge me a bit please. Id like to say that the purpose of the great tribulation is to put the church as a whole through the refiners fire. after all God is coming back for a spotless bride, how do you think this will happen? Just as each individual believer goes through a baptism of fire so that all the dross is removed so that God can look at us and see his reflection in us, the church as a whole needs to go through the same process, and the church has a lot to answer for, let me tell you. one church is full of love yet denies the power of God, one church is full of the power of God and has no love, and actually says” i cant help that person, i may be interfering with the judgement of God” and yet is extremely wealthy. another church is full of power, but is going nuts seeking manifestations and signs and wonders, and is being led astray willie nillie by deceiving spirits. Others are completely out of God’s order, and it is evident with having women as head pastors. others are so liberal they believe its ok to have homosexuals as pastors. people who cannot deny their own flesh leading the flock down the road to degredation. other church’s say they believe the bible, but when given the chance on national TV, they refuse to say Jesus is the only way, because they claim “only God can judge someone’s heart, Im not hear to judge, im hear to encourage”. other churches believe that “godliness is a means to financial gain” and all they preach is that you will get rich if you follow my Jesus. of course 1st Timothy 6:3-10 says otherwise. another church isnt christian at all, it is 95% pagan and prays to dead people and claims one of those dead people is a mediator between God and man, whereas the bible says there’s only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus the Christ. Another church denies Christ is God, and yet another has the same temple worship as the masonic lodge. so i ask you, does the church as a whole need to be cleansed, purged, put through the fire? You bet! and not to see this is a sin in and of itself. God bless you in the name of Jesus. I’m done for now.

  • i would like to add to what i said above that i do not view several of the churches i mentioned above as christian churches, but cults. i only mentioned them because the current ecumenical movement is uniting many of these churches together and forming the one world religion right before our very eyes. contracts have been signed already that unequally yoke some good people to some downright cults, and the members (sheeple) don’t have a clue as to what’s going on. perhaps because they pretty much worship their pastors and whatever he says rather than Jesus. It is high time to start reading the word of God through the filter of the Holy Spirit, And let Him bring us into all truth. STOP listening to men and their deceiving spirits and read your Word! But when you read it be prepared to toss aside most of what you have been taught if it contradicts what you are reading. if you don’t understand something, DON’T ask your pastor what it means, ask God what it means, pray about it, and the Holy Spirit will bring you into all truth. The pastor worship that goes on in this country is truly insane and not biblical, remember that God is no respecter of men, and neither should we be. nothing wrong with honor, but when you put the teachings of your pastor above what the bible clearly says just because he is “a good man”, or has helped you out, or you have known him 40 years, that is idolotry! plain and simple. We are to read the Word so much and so often that it is written on our hearts, that is what the bible says. Every time i get into a discussion about the timing of the return of Christ with someone that subscribes to pre or mid trib, they usually end up falling back on some kind of teaching of man, whether it be a seminary degree, or a book or whatever. They have to severely twist and “explain” everything and claim “i have to understand what they have read or learned about it.” NO I Dont! i have to read the bible and nothing else if i want to know what the bible means. but they have never, and never will, show me a scripture that contradicts II Thessolonians 2:1-4, or Mathew 24:29, or any of the other scriptures that Dirk has put forth. The arrogance of americans appalls me, and I am not proud to be an american christian at all. is it any wonder the rest of the world hates us? perhaps they have good reason, such as our attitude towards people that are trying to reveal God’s word and NOT their opinion as the pre tribbers often do. the other favorite tactic is to label us as divisive or argumentative. When this couldn’t be further from the truth. If anything we are trying to unite people who claim to believe in Christ with their Messiah and HIS teachings and get them to reject their traditions and teachings of men by encouraging them to read the Holy Scriptures honestly and stop using the filter of their experiences and past teachings. I am one of those people who knew nothing about the real Jesus until i read the bible, i came out of a cultic religion, the most powerful one(wordly power), and i left that religion because i read the bible. When i did so i realized it contradicted most of what i had learned growing up. Is it any wonder we were taught not to read the bible, “it was for the priests to interpret” as we were told. As much as i hate discord amongst brethren, i have to say that Dirk is right in everything he has said here and NOT ONE single person has shewn a scripture that even remotely proves him wrong. everyone here has attacked him personally and acted like children who were offended. And at best have responded with personal beliefs, conjecture, and in some cases completely twisting scriptures to the point of fabricating meanings for them based on some “teaching” you have heard. as in the scripture in revelation about John being caught up in the spirit having something to do with the rapture. How screwed up is that logic? It doesn’t say what these people want it to say no matter how much you stretch the truth. i came to the conclusion of a post trib return of Christ(and this being one and the same event referred to as the rapture) based on reading the bible with absolutely no outside influence from anyone else, as i was not attending church at the time. i had already left the cultic religion i was born into and had decided to see what God had to say about things. Thankfully i did study the bible for about 3 years and read it dozens of times in that 1st 3 years before making a choice about which church to go to. I have come to the conclusion that EVERY church has some level of corruption within it, whether on the national level, or just some divisive believers at the local level working for satan for the purpose to destroy moves of God. I will not let this stop me from fellowshipping with like minded believers. i have left churches because they practice idolotry in one form or another, and i will leave the church i am attending now(even though i am involved in ministry there) if it were to begin to come under the influence of deceiving spirits also. i said all that to say that my knowledge of the bible and Jesus is based 100% on what i have read in the bible, and what the Holy Spirit has shewn me. I was never taught anything about a rapture growing up, and i came to my conclusion based on what scripture says and nothing else. Thank You and Praise Jesus! READ YOU BIBLE AND STOP GETTING YOUR EARS TICKLED BY MEN!

  • Dear Brother Edward,

    Thank you for the kind words. Of course, the ADMIN of this board refuses to deal with the questions I have asked and ignore all the references completely.

    They shall have their reward; if they do not repent from preaching this lie, they GOD HIMSELF according to II Thes 2:9-12 will send them a delusion so that they will HAVE to believe a lie and end up in perdition.

    All others had better stop promoting this lie or they could end up in the same place.

    Thanks once again for the supporting scriptures quoted DIRECTLY from their own Bible.

    They cannot deny those verse are there, but they have refused to lay down their own preconceived notions and ideas so that everything they see is CONTAMINATED by the pre-trib rapture garbage that comes directly from satan.

    If any reading these words disagrees with what I or Edward have said, that is fine. BUT KNOW that UNLESS you answer the questions I have asked using the Bible without contradicting any other passage, you are proclaiming a LIE, and GOD is not involved in any lie!

    If you are preaching a lie, then it has it’s origins with satan. And since NONE of you can answer the questions I have asked, (nor can you) you are proclaiming a LIE!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • We must be Bereans and check out the scripture, also what is helpfull is to have an understanding of the Jewish wedding preparations, remembering we are the bride to a Jewish comming King. http://www.calvarychapelkaneohe.com/index.php?view=sermon&id=10570%3Aprophecy-update-2011-07-17&option=com_sermonspeaker&Itemid=101

  • Adding this may be of help – we must be like the wise virgins having oil in our lamps and not like the foolish virgins. http://www.raptureintheairnow.com/rita-main-discussion-forum/very-informative-artical-on-the-hebrew-gematria-and-the-end-times

  • Dear Laurin,

    Why have you ignored the 4 questions? Until you answer them from the Bible, you are believing false presumptions.

    Here they are once more>>>>>

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib.

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will
    be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib.

    Now, there are more, but no one can show any scriptural evidence for any of those questions.

    NOW, before you start in on the Jewish marriage ceremony or anything else, in order for there to be a pre trib rapture, there MUST be scriptural answers to the above questions. There MUST BE actual evidence IN THE BIBLE of this so-called “pre-trib rapture”

    The problem is, THERE IS NOT ONE SCRIPTURAL PIECE OF EVIDENCE FOR IT!

    So, if anyone is going to promote a pre trib rapture saying it is biblical, THEY MUST have found the answers to these questions IN THE BIBLE!

    OR They are promoting a LIE!

    It is one or the other for the Bible does NOT contradict itself!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Newton noted the cyclical nature of Bible prophecy and it provides hours and hours of thinking time!
    I believe in a glorious appearing of the Lord.
    The Rapture is largely an allegory of the death of a saint. We will probably have to go through some bad bad times. And, the wrath of man is not the wrath of God…Islam and their sundry crackpot friends can impose “the wrath of man” , but they will be destroyed…we already won…be glad. Some glad souls are putting Oliver B Green on NC radio to boot! Listen to Bro. Green and not those weepy preachers!

  • Dat-a-gurl Katie Caliente…I used to be a RAPTURE person but GOD has a way to teach His Remnant people TRUTH. I try to convey to other Xtians, but they won’t even bother opening my emails. They will suffer terribly and feel let down by GOD…and as in China recently, when the Rapture did not come, thousands committed suicide, saying: Where is the rapture?
    Xtans have been lulled to sleep for many years, listning to EASY STREET GOSPEL…feel good and comfy….plenty of money supposedly to be transferred as GOD gave Egypt’s gold to the Jews on their way out. HELLO??? Where does it say it will happen again???? Now these Xhristianettes are saying: No need to keep food surplus for days ahead, GOD will send manna. Hello???? Looks like these people have been brought back to Egypt instead of Beulah Land.
    Good luck to them all.

    • Jacqueline! You have hit the nail on the head! This is the truth!

  • I was just checking this site out and I figured I might be able to help answer some people’s questions about the Rapture in my book.
    You can find it at Amazon and it’s called “Beyond Millennium.”
    It deals with just about every possible eschatology scripture in the Bible in a fictional setting. It’s similar (but hardly) to The Left Behind books except that the adventure goes further and explores life during the Millennial reign of Jesus, Judgment Day, “rapture” stuff, etc.
    God bless all my Christian friends. Let us strengthen one another in truth and spirit.

  • I find it interesting and also VERY SAD, that th Admin can post the following>>>>

    “These words declare that the prophecies of Daniel were to be “shut up” and “sealed” until the “TIME OF THE END.” This expression does not mean the “end of Time, ” but is the angelic messenger’s way of referring to the “Last Days” of the “Times of the Gentiles.” At which time he declares that the Book will be “unsealed, ” and “knowledge shall be increased.” What is here meant is “prophetic knowledge” of the things recorded in the Book of Daniel and other prophetic writings of the Scriptures.

    This is made clear by the statement that only the “wise” shall understand. That is, those who are enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and not those who merely have intellectual knowledge, for the wicked SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND. How wonderfully this is true of these days. The Higher Critics have labored hard to discredit the Book of Daniel, but without avail, for the Book is more studied than ever, and is being “unsealed” by Holy Spirit enlightened students of the Word of God, who clearly see that we have reached the “Time of the End, ” and are living in the closing days of the “Times of the Gentiles.””

    And think that they are the ones who have had their minds enlightened by the Holy Spirit YET those who cling to the Pre Trib Rapture LIE are those who are young in the Lord and very much worldly, or just have not bothered to lay down their own lives enough to be taught HIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH!

    You see, when I first began to learn about The Second Coming, ALL I heard was PRE TRIB RAPTURE! That is what I thought and believed, but I was VERY, VERY DECEIVED!

    NOW, after more than 30 yrs later, I KNOW for a fact that the above quote is correct. YET it is NOT the Pre Trib Rapture that is revealed by the Holy Spirit. That comes only from MAN!

    What comes from the Holy Spirit is ONLY HIS TRUTH, and it happens only for those who have laid down their pre conceived notions and ideas and have become willing to be wrong NO MATTER WHAT. Only these are taught HIS TRUTH!

    His Truth is in absolute agreement with ALL the Scriptures; The POST TRIBULATION GATHERING OF THE SAINTS!

    We GO THROUGH the Tribulation. But you will not listen because you want your way and promote your ideas.

    You are totally UNWILLING to Lose yourselves in Him

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
    Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Scripture shows that the pre-trib rapture is a false doctrine that contradicts the Inspired Word of God.

    Brother Dirk don’t be dismayed that many will not accept the truth for scripture speaks of them…
    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    Be Blessed in your stand for the truth!
    In Christ, Wayde

  • Here is a short video that proves a PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS FALSE. The only reason people promote a pre trib rapture is 1) Because they are deceived
    2) Because they want to be in control.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1547220378783

  • The Lord this on my heart. Here is a link to a radio program that was recorded thi slast July by a dear friend of mine.

    I CHALLENGE ALL WHO READ THIS NOTE TO ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THIS TEACHING!

    I know you will not, except a very small minority.

    ADMIN, you certainly will not listen, especially NOT with an open heart and mind and a willingness to be corrected BY GOD!

    But you won’t and it is for this reason, that you refuse to hear HIS TRUTH that you will be judged.

    http://perfectgiftministries.org/Download_Files/Downloads/ByteShowInterviews/ChrisBlodgett_PreTribRapture_9July2011_TBS.mp3

    Many of you will be offended as these events begin to come to pass and you ALL REMAIN ON THIS EARTH!

    At the end, you will REMEMBER that you were told the truth and you rejected it!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Where is my comment?

  • You People Must Understand That The Saints That Will Come Out Of the Tribulation Is The People that Got Saved In The Tribulation, Not The Saints That Were saved before Because they are in Heaven With The Lord to reign With Him A thousand years.

  • No Grogan,

    That is NOT TRUE

    You must answer the questions FROM THE BIBLE I have asked above. I will repost them here.

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things that are actually IN THE BIBLE.

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib.

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will
    be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib.

    Now, there are more, but no one can show any scriptural evidence for any of those questions.

    You do not know the scrptures NOR the power of God.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • This Latin ‘raptoro’ translated in 382AD from original Greek that we know of in English translation as ‘gathered up’ (of those yet living), finds way to much importance, certainly for those that do not keep faith.
    More important is the NT teaching of the (Last Days) rebellious generation, those falling away that rather would believe a lie, and this sign glaring in evidence today.
    Perhaps this opportunity from many teaching that individual ‘works’ is uncalled for and unimportant, while the virgins whose lamps have run out of oil sit around ready to fly off somewhere… when verse sadly explains the first messiah is actually released from the abyss to ‘gather up’.

  • Challenge, the many ‘Millennium theories’ are based upon Revelation chapter-20, and this Millennium a Latin translation from the Bible in 382AD of the Greek word ‘chilioi’, that Strongs dictionary calls an ‘uncertain affinity or thousand’.

    This Chilioi found singularly (w/o extension/addition)exists only 8-times in the entire NT, 6-times within Rev-20, and twice in 2 Pe 3:8 (as like).

    There are not one-Thousand, but two, and these in full context and purpose describe two ‘events’, and although the Thousand events ending when Satan released from the abyss, Rev-20 continues describing events that in full give meaning to the entire chapter-20 of Revelations.

    The challenge, read my webpage concerning the Latin ‘Millennium’ and English ‘Thousand’, in prayer see where you fing significant error:
    http://rtpricetag.home.comcast.net/~rtpricetag/Millennium.html

  • Ah DeWayne,

    You even quote a portion of what Jesus says in Matt 24, but leave out WHEN He says it will happen.

    Jesus says He will NOT send His angels to gather the people of God from everywhere UNTIL AFTER THE END OF THE GREATEST TRIBULATION TO EVER BE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH!

    Not only that, but the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars fall from the sky BEFORE He sends His angels to gather His people.

    All of your great work is false.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

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  • Dear Refugio,

    I guess we must assume you are speaking to DeWayne.

    Similar things could be said of Hitler’s work “Mine Kampf” but not only is it poison and will destroy anyone who believes what it says, it is full of lies.

    So too is DeWayne’s work. It may be a wonderful work of MAN, but has nothing to do with GOD’s TRUTH!

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  • One must wonder what the principle of Imminent Return is all about in the Bible.

    I tell you the Truth>>> It is NOT about Jesus coming in the clouds, but bringing the Kingdom to our hearts!

    So why are you looking for Him to rapture you and refuse to allow HIM to give you an UNDIVIDED HEART?

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  • Once again those who want there to be a Pre Trib Rapture have NO EVIDENCE for whast they believe FROM THE BIBLE!

    The Bible does NOT TELL US there will be a pre trib rapture. Admin on this site cannot show a verse for it, nor can anyone else because it does not exist.

    Sue, you have not come back to prove yourself by the Bible, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DO IT! You cannot answer those questions I have asked because the Bible teaches AGAINST a Pre Trib Rapture and instead teaches a POST TRIB RAPTURE just like Jesus says in Matt 24.

    NOT ONE OF YOU can show a logical or spiritual teaching DIRECTLY from the Bible that tells us that there is a pre trib rapture. BUT I CAN and HAVE repeatedly given verse after verse that PROVES there is a POST TRIB Gathering of the Saints and that the Church goes thru the WHOLE TRIBULATION!

    You are all sadly deceived and you will end up following the anti-christ if you do not repent!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Refrences for the rapture go back way before the 15oo’s and can easily be googled. Rome the power of the day somewhat silenced this teaching as it destroys their myth of purgatory and removes one of their major money making scams.

  • Dirk, you are possibly the angriest christian I have ever encountered, just reading over these threads/messages. Lose the anger mate and engage with yur brethren even if you dont agree with them, dont abuse them and call them liars, by all means challenge but do so politley and with love.

  • Tommy,

    I am not angry at all. THAT comes from yourself.

    And you are quite incorrect. there are no references to a pre trib rapture before the late 100’s or early 1800’s and they came FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH!

    I have only asked a few questions and NO ONE, including yourself, has yet to go to the scriptures and answer them.

    YOU, Tommy, are decieved!

  • BTW, Tommy, they are liars. There is no truth in them.

    If they were NOT LIARS, then the Bible would agree with them and it does NOT!

    You seem to have forgotten what Jesus and John the Baptist said about the Pharisees. (Of which the admin here is the also a type of pharisee)

    Have you read Matt 23 lately? Doubt it.

    Perhaps you should read some of Paul’s letters where he speaks against those who preach LIES!

    It is NOT that I disagree with these people but THEY ARE LYING! and have NO SCRIPTURE that agrees with what they preach.

    NONE! (unless of course, they twist it to suit their fancy.)

    So, where are the answers to the questions I have asked? YOu certainly cannot provide them. All you can do is attack me and discredit me in your own eyes so you do not have listen.

    BUT IT IS GOD who asks you these questions. SO, when you stand before HIM, what will you say when He asks you the same questions I am asking?

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • After sleeping and praying on it, I must also ask this>>>

    Tommy, WHAT makes you think I am angry in the first place?

    What evidence do you base that WRONG ASSUMPTION on?

    But you won’t answer this question either.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

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  • Dirk I cannot answer your questions, your biblical knowledge is far greater than mine, Im not really very intelectual at all but the way you respond and speak to people is really agressive and angry, I understand you can not see this despite others mentioning it. This is the way you come across in your messages with name calling and capitals. Your a very intelligent person I suspect but meaning no offence I would not like to engage with someone who shouts at me and ridicules everything I say. Peace be with you.

  • What specifically?

    How can you call someone a name, as you said, if they are liars? Isn’t that telling them the truth?

    As I said, you have not understood the Lord’s ways very well. You do not know how Jesus spoke to people and ESPECIALLY those who taught others FALSELY!

    The Capital letters are for emphasis. Especially since there is no other way to emphasize things in this format.

    I come across to YOU as though I am agressive and angry. BUT to those who truly know the Lord, they understand what I say and they know it is true.

    Perhaps you should read John 5: Here, let me quote a portion that applies to yourself, Tommy and to the Admin here>>>>

    John 5: 37And the Father Who sent Me has Himself testified concerning Me. Not one of you has ever given ear to His voice or seen His form (His face–what He is like). [You have always been deaf to His voice and blind to the vision of Him.]

    38And you have not His word (His thought) living in your hearts, because you do not believe and adhere to and trust in and rely on Him Whom He has sent. [That is why you do not keep His message living in you, because you do not believe in the Messenger Whom He has sent.]

    39You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!

    40And still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life.

    41I receive not glory from men [I crave no human honor, I look for no mortal fame],

    42But I know you and recognize and understand that you have not the love of God in you.

    I know you will not like what I said, but that is the way of the world, they never like what God has to say. I am only speaking what HE says, not what man says.

    If you will repent, admit your error, be willing to lay down everything you have been taught so that the LORD HIMSELF may reteach you His Absolute Truth, then He will show you how you may Enter the Kingdom of God now!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Now the correct response would surely have been bearing in mind one or two others have said the same things ‘I apologise if I come across that way, I really don’t mean too’ however it seems you just want to attack and slander people. there are many things that christians disagree on but do agree on the fundamentals of the faith, does the fact I believe in a pre trib rapture overule the fact that I have from my heart repented of my sin put my faith in Christ and seek to live a Godly life through the Holy Spirit and win souls for Christ also investing financially in the furtherance of the gospel? Are all us pre tribbers lost? Do you have no error at all? Is pride not an error? Do I not truly know the Lord because I percieve you to be angry? I suspect you to be a cult member as you seem very controlling and do not appear to like anyone to have their own opinions that may differ from you. In reality I would loved to have asked you some questions as I am quite open and willing to learn more especially from older wiser believers but sadly not from a person who seems to think Im not a christian because I differ in one or two doctrines not related to salvation. I hope you step back and consider the way you speak to people. I have never won anyone to Christ by ridiculing and dismissing them yet. I wont be checking back here Dirk so you don’t need respond, I love you in the Lord even though in your opinion I don;t seem to know Him, in reality however the fact I do love you indicates that He obviously has some influence in my life as just a few years ago my heart would be saying things quite differently.

  • Tommy,

    You are very deceived. I nver said you were not a Christian. There you go assuming once more.

    But no matter, you have nothing to base your ideas on a pre trib rapture. You have no verses that do not contradict the Bible and the ones I have already posted.

    You ignore what I have posted to your peril.

  • Does anyone have any revelations they would like to share regarding Revelations…as well as the prophetic scriptures of Old Testament that discuss the Day of the Lord’s Vengeance?

  • “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage each other with these words.”

    THE DEAD IN CHRIST DOES NOT REFER TO THE CHURCH. THE DEAD IN CHRIST, WILL RISE FIRST, IS CHRIST HIMSELF. HE WAS THE ‘FIRST” TO BE RESURRECTED.

    ~ ~ But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20 )

    We need to study, to shew ourselves approved…..

  • Teresa,

    You are quite in error. You do not even understand what this passage is about. I suggest you read Matt 24 where Jesus explains it.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • There have been several here on this thread that have accused me of calling people names and other unsightly things FALSELY!

    Go back and read what I have said. I told those who spout their words to back up what they say with scripture WITHOUT taking things out of context.

    NOT ONE PERSON HAS DONE SO!

    I then told those who were spouting these words that IF THEY COULD NOT BACK UP WHAT THEY WERE SAYING WITH THE BIBLE, THEN they were lying.

    How is that calling people names?

    How is speaking the truth about sin calling someone names?

    Some of you have a VERY TWISTED OUTLOOK on what the scriptures say.

    But I understand why you do this.

    You do these things and accuse me of all sorts of evil so that you might DISCOUNT what I am saying and JUSTIFY yourselves in your own eyes so you can retain your doctrine that in reality CONTRADICTS the Bible.

    But you go ahead and accuse me falsely if you will. You only prove who is your father and build up evidence against you before God!

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, Dirk

  • I feel that you need to write more on this matter The Rapture. It may not be a taboo topic but typically individuals are not sufficient to speak on such topics.

  • To whom are you speaking Sharjah?

    And to what are you referring.

  • Dirk, are you still in the pen?

  • Faith,

    Sorry, I am not in your head. To what are you referring?

    I do not assume as so many do on this thread.

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  • Facts: the word rapture is not biblical
    The Lord can return at any time. A third coming is not mentioned..only extrapolated by different interpretation of prophecies.
    When He returns, time ends, the Judgement comes, the unrighteous will be cast away in some kind of torment, the righteous who have followed the Biblical pattern of salvation: belief in the Bible who Jesus is and what he has done for us, repentance, public profession of faith, baptism for the forgiveness of sin and receiving the Holy Spirit, continued faithfulness and dedication producing fruit and good works…will join the Lord in a new creation. The present reality will be destroyed and some kind of new reality will be created …new heaven and new earth whatever it is. Thus shall his saints be with the Lord forever and ever Amen. Therefore, go unto all the world making disciples, baptizing them, declaring his Kingdom until Christ returns.
    So instead of becoming a survivalist (a lot of good that will do, eh?) or micro-managing world affairs concerning the current secular state of Israel and their latest foe, how about doing what God tells us to do. Go, tell.

  • Bob,

    The Lord can return at ANY TIME???????????

    Go read Matthew 24. Jesus explains when He will return>>>

    AFTER THE END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

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  • Ah Admin,

    In several places you state that a pre trib rapture is plain, simple and clear. If that is REALLY TRUE, then WHY are there so many verses that contradict it?

    Why can’t you answer the questions I have asked you? Where are the verses that PROVE there is a pre trib rapture? You have not shown ONE SINGLE VERSE.

    ADMIN, you are promoting a LIE and you are leading people who are undiscerning into the same hole that you are heading into. When will you get HONEST?

    Don’t you know that liars have no place in the Kingdom of God? Or do you ignore those verses as well as the verses that DISPROVE a pre trib rapture.

    If as you say, the pre trib rapture is clearly taught in the Bible, THEN WHERE IS IT?

    I have gone through the Bible many times and have yet to find it. Of course, if you read the Bible trying to FIND verses that COULD AGREE with you, you will always find something.

    But what about desiring His Absolute TRUTH? Is that what you really want or do you only want to look at the verses that support you (in your own minds)?

    If you really want God’s Absolute Truth, you must look at the whole bible and find out what the WHOLE BIBLE SAYS on the subject, INSTEAD of reading the Bible with an attitude that you already know the truth and that means, in your own minds, that there is a pre trib rapture, never ever being willing to be wrong or seeking what GOD has to say.

    But you will not do this because then you would have to admit that you were wrong. You will not ever do that either and so will continue on in your deceived state, proclaiming the teachings of man as though they came from God, being no better than the Pharisees and committing the same sins as they did.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    PS: that would of course mean the same woes are upon you as Jesus proclaimed on the Pharisees in Matt 23. Perhaps you should review them carefully and become far less presumptuous about your pre trib stance.
    das

  • Hey everyone,

    I’ve just found this website and am sad to see so many not showing the love of Christ. I believe, however, that I have a solution to the pre-Tribulation/post-Tribulation debacle. I invested quite a bit of time during 2010-11 writing a short treatise (over 5000 words) on the subject and would hope to share (in love!) my findings. I may be wrong but my research is Biblical and objective. How can I post and/or share this with anyone interested? Let me know and in the meantime, let’s all represent the Body of Christ in love because we will all stand before the Lamb of God someday.

    Until THAT Day,

    Todd

  • Dear Todd.

    What do you think the Love of Christ is?

    Is it lying, spreading false teaching? Is it confronting those who speak those lies and calling them to account?

    And what do you think is this “solution” to the pre-trib post trib debacle?

    Todd, just put it simply here in few words.

    But you won’t.

    BTW, it doesn’t matter what YOU THINK!

    It matters what God says!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Hey Dirk,

    I’ll do you one better, here’s my e-mail…

    tjdales6@yahoo.com

    …contact me and I’ll send you (and anyone else who’s interested ) the attachment; I am open to all scrutiny and criticism. By the way, you and I may have more in common than you believe: I once adhered to a pre-Tribulation Rapture but have since rationally examined the issue and found it presents serious flaws. As Christians, however, we must all humbly admit that no one is 100% correct when it comes to fitting all the prophetical pieces together, myself included. There is a distinction between “false teaching” and heresy: if an individual denied the Trinity (a class on which I teach), Christ’s deity, etc. then there should be some correction involved. When disagreements pertaining to the Rapture arise, we must, as fellow Believers, respect one another’s views in love; the “when” is not an essential element of our historic Christian faith but rather that Jesus will be calling us home! Let’s encourage one another until we indeed find ourselves caught up into the clouds to meet our Saviour and King! I’ll be anxiously awaiting your e-mail.

    In the Lamb’s blood,

    Todd 🙂

  • Todd,

    I would agree with you about letting it go as far as when goes EXCEPT wqe are told in several places INCLUDING BY JESUS HIMSELF to not allow ANYONE to deceive us about when He would return.

    Since you cannot answer that question simply but must make this a guessing game, that tells me you are still walking in deception.

    ANYONE who relies on their study to determine what it correct or incorrect is still eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, committing the same sin as Adam and Eve that got them kicked out of Paradise; it will also keep whoever is still eating from the sinful tree out of God’s Kindgom.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Dirk,

    I have just e-mailed you my paper; do with it as you want. I humbly wrote it to edify the Church and honor my Saviour, Jesus. If anyone else would like to read it, I’ll be more than happy to send it and accept any/all feedback, positive and negative.

    In Christ,

    Todd 🙂

  • Todd,

    You did not humbly write anything. That paper is written with all the pride and arrogance in you that you can figure out what God is saying using human methods instead of being taught by the Holy Spirit.

    You are still deceived and leading others in your deception and IF YOU DO NOT REPENT, will fall into the pit along with all of those who follow you.

    All of your ‘SCHOLARLY WORK” just shows how full of yourself you are. You have totally ignored Matt 24 where Jesus tells us WHEN the gathering of His people happpens.

    You are relying on you OWN ABILITIES to figure things out for yourself instead of relying on God. That is what the Phariess did; it is what the ADMIN of this board does, and what most Christians today do which all shows their ignorance of God’s ways and the deception you are all under.

    How much deception?

    Read Matt 23 and see what Jesus thought of those who do what you all do.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • How many others of you out there believe I wrote in prideful arrogance? E-mail me (tjdales6@yahoo.com) and I’ll send you an attachment of my treatise.

    In Christ,

    Todd 🙂

  • Well, Todd,

    I see you cannot answer the questions I asked you. Still promoting your own ideas instead of being taught by God~

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • BTW Todd,

    Since you cannot answer the questions I have asked you, you are admitting that your idea is in error because you have no scriptural response that agrees with the WHOLE BIBLE!

    Your spurious ideas are just that, YOUR IDEAS and have no basis in reality with the Lord.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • hey

  • What happened Todd?

    Where did you go?

    If what you wrote actually came from God instead of from your own deception, then nothing I could ask you from the Bible would deter, stump, or in any way stop you from answering those questions.

    BUT, I know, as I told you before, what you wrote came from you. You did the research and figured it out yourself. The Holy Spirit did not teach you your doctrine, it is YOUR DOCTRINE, YOUR TEACHING. It has nothing to do with God at all.

    Now, either admit your error or answer the questions.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Dirk,

    I’ve just answered your e-mail: my Comcast tower has been down and was unable to respond. I would gladly answers but only found ramblings on your website. By the way, if anyone cares, the following (I’ve placed it in quotes) is from one of your links dated 08/19/2011…

    “I wonder who, if anyone understands anymore.

    Look at this passage>>>

    Rev 10: 8Then the voice that I heard from heaven spoke again to me, saying, Go and take the little book (scroll) which is open on the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.

    9So I went up to the angel and asked him to give me the little book. And he said to me, Take it and eat it. It will embitter your stomach, though in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.©

    10So I took the little book from the angel’s hand and ate and swallowed it; it was as sweet as honey in my mouth, but once I had swallowed it, my stomach was embittered.

    Does anyone UNDERSTAND THIS?

    I do.

    Has anyone ever TRULY been given revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ? I have. Do you know what it is like? It is WONDERFUL!. It is a great blessing. It is peaceful, thrilling, convicting, marvelous, scary, exalting, and humbling and so much more all at the same time.”

    Now, this sounds like what a cult would say…a lot of rambling along with believing God only speaks with them (Dirk) and if you (me) disagree, then you (me) are of Satan. Listen Dirk, I, like many others, have attempted to share a loving brotherly conversation with you but to no avail. I have been sincerely humble with you but arguing is what you enjoy best. As a Bible believing Christian, I have been washed by Christ’s blood and live daily for my Lord. That’s all. If you truly desire to fellowship, I’m all open ears. Otherwise, I wish you the best.

    Todd 🙂

  • So Todd, you take a few OUT OF CONTEXT LINES from a website that has over 860 posts on it and use that to PROVE I am some type of cult.

    You totally IGNORED the articles I attached to the email and went to my website that is far beyond your understanding and LIKE ALL PHARISEES, found a few lines you can twist to “PROVE” I am apostate or something. But like all Pharisees, you have no true spiritual understanding. You are eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil NOT the Tree of Life.

    Only spiritual people are granted spiritual understanding by God and you do not have the wisdom that comes from above. No, you have worldly wisdom that looks good in the eyes of man, but it is demonic; JUST as the Scriptures say.

    I do not believe God only speaks with me. I never said that. I just asked a question WHICH YOU FOCUSED ON IGNORING THE WHOLE THOUGHT BEHIND the few lines you posted here. to make yourself look good in the eyes on men and to make me look bad in the eyes of men.

    Honestly, I don’t care what you or these people think. I know what God says.

    You obviously, DO NOT!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Todd,

    Since you decided to copy only that part of the article that you wanted to discredit me, here is the WHOLE ARTICLE>>>>

    I wonder who, if anyone understands anymore.

    Look at this passage>>>

    Rev 10: 8Then the voice that I heard from heaven spoke again to me, saying, Go and take the little book (scroll) which is open on the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.

    9So I went up to the angel and asked him to give me the little book. And he said to me, Take it and eat it. It will embitter your stomach, though in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.©

    10So I took the little book from the angel’s hand and ate and swallowed it; it was as sweet as honey in my mouth, but once I had swallowed it, my stomach was embittered.

    Does anyone UNDERSTAND THIS?

    I do.

    Has anyone ever TRULY been given revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ? I have. Do you know what it is like? It is WONDERFUL!. It is a great blessing. It is peaceful, thrilling, convicting, marvelous, scary, exalting, and humbling and so much more all at the same time.

    And then, when He is finished, then the reaction from the world sets it. They call you names. accuse you of pride, arrogance, haughtiness, heresy, claim you are NOT even saved, that you are led by satan, and you can add so many negative things here, that your head will spin.

    So we come to the Lord. We lay down all of what the world has taught us. We lay down all of what we used to hold dear, even what our leaders and mentors have taught us; ESPECIALLY, we have laid down everything that we have figured out for ourselves.

    WHY do we do this?

    Because He has finally gotten it through our thick skulls that there is NO WAY that we will ever understand anything of the Lord unless HE HIMSELF TEACHES IT TO US!. Our minds are not truly capable, nor is our understanding sufficient to determine what is right and wrong.

    We only THINK we know what is right and wrong, what is good and evil. And THAT, my friends, is the curse that we have received from our parents, from Adam and Eve, for they ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and from that moment on, everyone who has ever been born, thinks they can figure out what is good or evil IN THEIR OWN EYES, even if they use the Bible (what they THINK the Bible teaches) to figure it out.

    But the problem is, that is pure deception. ONLY GOD truly knows what is good and evil in each and every situation. I will NOT bore you with all the scriptures that speak about this, but there are many both Old and New Testament.

    Now, once we come to this place and cease relying on what WE think, then FINALLY, He begins to teach us. And this is so very fresh, and wonderful and all the things I have stated before and even beyond that, we just do not get a clue; yet, (even if He has told us what is coming)

    But after some time, we will begin speaking or writing about the things He has taught us. And THAT is when it becomes bitter. The sadness, the grieving, the knowing the TRUTH of what HE has said and the rejection by those who all need to hear it.

    DO you remember Jesus standing over Jerusalem? He cried out>>>>

    Luke 13: 34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who continue to kill the prophets and to stone those who are sent to you! How often I have desired and yearned to gather your children together [around Me], as a hen [gathers] her young under her wings, but you would not!

    35Behold, your house is forsaken (abandoned, left to you destitute of God’s help)! And I tell you, you will not see Me again until the time comes when you shall say, Blessed (to be celebrated with praises) is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!

    And it is this same heart cry that begins to be a part of our lives. We KNOW what will happen if they continue in their way. We would LOVE to explain it to them, but they refuse to hear a word. They are too full of themselves, their own teachings, their own ideas and what others have taught them to ever truly care what God is speaking in His still small voice through His messengers.

    And that, my friends, is the bitterness. NOT that we become bitter, not that we through unforgiveness plant a tree of bitterness that grows up inside to destroy our love for others. NAY! NEVER!

    But this bitterness within the stomach because of how they grieve the Holy Spirit and how they treat their supposed brothers and sisters, never realizing that LOVE is not a part of their hearts. They reacet with natural human feelilngs not understanding the difference and transcendance of what the Holy Spirit actually brings. They beleive that they can control their actions and so fulfill the Law of Christ by mere human actions, reactions, and their own will.

    They do NOT understand nor has it ever even crossed their minds that what must occur is what Ezekiel tells us of the New Covenant and the NEW HEART that God promised His people.

    It is this PROMISE of the Father that is sadly lacking in the lives of God’s people in this day and that very few even know about or believe is possible to experience.

    Ezek 11: 17Therefore say, Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give back to you the land of Israel.

    18And when they return there, they shall take away from it all traces of its detestable things and all its abominations (sex impurities and heathen religious practices).

    19And I will give them one heart [a new heart] and I will put a new spirit within them; and I will take the stony [unnaturally hardened] heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh [sensitive and responsive to the touch of their God],(A)

    20That they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. And they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

    Ezek 36: 22Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: I do not do this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations to which you went.

    23And I will vindicate the holiness of My great name and separate it for its holy purpose from all that defiles it–My name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned among them–and the nations will know, understand, and realize that I am the Lord [the Sovereign Ruler, Who calls forth loyalty and obedient service], when I shall be set apart by you and My holiness vindicated in you before their eyes and yours.

    24For I will [a]take you from among the nations and gather you out of all countries and bring you into your own land.

    25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness; and from all your idols will I cleanse you.

    26A new heart will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

    27And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall heed My ordinances and do them.

    28And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

    And these are the things that God has promised to DO in and through our lives IN THIS DAY! GOD does it, not us. And THIS is the Promise of the FATHER, not speaking in tongues. (not saying we will not speak in tongues, but that is a far lesser gift than what is spoken of here)

    So all of this is wonderfully sweet and pleasurable in the mouth when we receive them from the Lord. And yet, when they take root inside of us, although they will always be sweet in our mouths, the bitterness of how the world DOES NOT RECEIVE or even ACKNOWLEDGE His Words, remains a part of our lives for as long as we remain.

    And we will even gain deeper and deeper knowledge of this mournful cry that Jesus made over Jerusalem and those who lived there.

    So, do any of you understand these things? Have you experienced them? Does this touch you deep inside of you so that you rejoice and cry at the same time?

    Then you have truly been taught by the Lord and are on the narrow path that leads to His Kingdom IN THIS EARTH where the path ebcomes the wide plain and opens up into freedom. The Bitterness will remain as long as we live her or until the Lord returns.

    But NO ONE, NO ONE AT ALL, will ever be able to take away or cause us to forget that honey sweetness that stays with us and causes to always yearn for more. Yes we will yearn for more and more of His revelation EVEN THOUGH it brings about this sadness, this bitterness in the pit of our stomachs.

    May we never allow it to deter us from denying ourselves and allowin HIM to be God in our lives, may we never aing decide or do what is right in our own eyes, BUT ONLY, as did Jesus before us, say and do ONLY those things that HE tells us to say and do!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Dirk,

    I did peruse through some of the articles but found them from your perspective; funny how anything you write is acceptable and revelatory from God but thoughts from others are demonic! Nonetheless, your statement of faith was fairly good (though quite succint) except for when utilizing the word ‘multi-faced’ when referring to the Trinity: that word implies Sabellianism (look it up) which is a heretical misconception of the doctrine. Anyway, like everyone else (looks like you’re the only true Christian among us), I’m moving on as you continue to ignore the fact that without love, you are only a “clanging cymbal” (I Corinthians 13:1).

    Until THAT Day,

    Todd 🙂

  • Todd,

    I do WALK in love WHICH YOU DO NOT!

    How do I know?

    Because you assumed evil of me several time and did not ask what I was referring to.

    You do not know anything. You are attacking me to discredit me and refusing to deal with the scriptures and the questions you were asked.

    As far as being the only Christian, no. I know many.

    HOWEVER, we must remember that as Ravenhill said, that LESS than 2% of professing Christians were actually Christians, that percentage has drastically dropped in recent years.

    You assume evil of me showing you do not have the Love of God in your heart. I am not a clanging cymbal, but rather I speak the oracles of God to those who have ears to hear.

    So, you admit you do not have ears that hear.

    Once again, you attack and accuse not knowing what I am speaking of NOR do you bother to ask, you just ASSUME EVIL!

    Poor Todd, you are continually showing that you are religious but not an authentic Christian.

    Did you know that every person God raises up to speak INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST, always speaks in a way that those who do not follow God will find a way to twist the words to discredit them and so they justify themselves in their own deception?

    I asked you 4 very specific questions. Simple and straightforward. You ignore those questions and attack me personally, showing who your father is, just like the Pharisees did.

    I warn you, and you upbraid me because of the warning trying to make me out the bad guy who is deceived.

    But you will have to answer to God Himself those 4 questions and many more besides. AND THEN you will have to explain why you continued to teach lies as though they were the doctrines of God.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Problem with the pre-Trip Rapture teaching, it is not directly taught in the Book.

    Boiled down the PTR doctrine says Yeshua is coming 2 more times that equal only one 2nd advent. That the present Church will be taken out before the great trib, but a part of the Church that comes into being later, ‘tribulation saints’, will be left behind.

    PTR teaching doesn’t call the post trib saints the Church, but they would have to be Church. They must get saved/redeemed the same as us, so they would be the Church in the trib. How does one become qualified to be in the Church & pre-Trib raptured? By being born again, saved, redeemed. The post trib saints can be saved no other way. ALL who are God’s born again children are saved the same way, by the work of Messiah at the cross.

    If we all are saved the same way, by Jesus’ blood & our being born again, & this is what qualifies one for the PTR, why would the ‘trib’ saints not also be qualified for a ‘rapture’ of their own? Father is no respecter of persons….

    Note: ALL the PTR teaching is based on esiegesis, none of it on exegsis. The teaching is based on a preconceived idea. The Bible has been twisted as the scriptures are interpreted using eisegesis. Esiegesis is the over laying of meaning on to a verse rather than letting the verse mean what it says straight up, which is exegesis.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

    Since there is no direct statement that “Jesus is coming 2 more times & these 2 comings equal 1 advent and there will be ‘tribulation saints’ left behind” in the Book, twisted scripture proof texting is all there is to ‘prove’ the 2 stage 2nd coming of Messiah. The WHOLE PTR teaching is based on inference & assumptive eisegesis.

    Let me ask, where does the Bible directly say, no inference but straight up & directly, that Jesus takes us to heaven when He comes, returns or appears?

    Where is the term ‘tribulation saints’ found in the Bible or original language? I looked in Strongs. The word saints in the original language does not mean any thing different in any of it’s uses in the writings before Revelation than it means in Revelation. There is no original language modifier that can be used to say ‘saints’ mentioned in the Book of the Revelation are different [or ‘trib saints’] than any saint any where else in the NT. The same word for saint in the original is the same word in all the NT.

    Why is the pre-Trib rapture not mentioned in any commentary before about 1835? Schoefield came out with his reference bible AFTER that time. Adam Clark’s commentaries have no mention of a PTR.

    Why was the PTR never a Church teaching or central doctrine till after about 1835? The concept may have been mentioned, but it has never been a mainstream Christian doctrine till about then. People SAY it’s there in the NT, but can produce no direct statements in the Book to prove it without resorting to the use of esiegesis.

    Also, how does one determine what verses refer to the 1st part of the 2 stage 2nd advent, the pre-Trib Rapture, & which refer to the 2nd half of the 2 stage 2nd advent, the glorious appearing?

    In the parable of the wheat & darnel [Amplified Version. ‘Tares’ in KJ.] Jesus said let them grow together UNTIL the harvest. He goes on to explain his terms & in doing so quashes the idea that He is coming 2 more times.

    What is the NT definition of ‘escape’?

    1 Cor. 10:13

    For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.

    There will be a tremendous temptation to take the mark, but we can be victorious.

    Revelation 15:2
    Then I saw what seemed to be a glassy sea blended with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his statue and from the number corresponding to his name were standing beside the glassy sea, with harps of God in their hands.

    It is not the Father won’t take care of us or protect us, it’s how. Which is easier? The path of least resistance PTR teaching or for Father to take care of us in the midst of trails, temptations & tribulation?

    Paul told Timothy that Father would deliver him [Paul] safe to Poppa’s heavenly kingdom. How did Paul get there?

    Why are we told many times in Revelation & elsewhere that we must endure to the end? Is the PTR ‘THE end’?

    That the dead will be raised up ‘at the LAST day’, according to Jesus?

    How many LAST trumpets are there?

    What do these verses from Hebrews mean? How do they fit with Jesus’ explanation of the time frame for the wheat & darnel [tares].

    Hebrews 12:
    26Then [at Mount Sinai] His voice shook the earth, but now He has given a promise: Yet once more I will shake and make tremble not only the earth but also the [starry] heavens.
    27Now this expression, Yet once more, indicates the final removal and transformation of all [that can be] shaken–that is, of that which has been created–in order that what cannot be shaken may remain and continue.

    28Let us therefore, receiving a kingdom that is firm and stable and cannot be shaken, offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship, with modesty and pious care and godly fear and awe;

    29For our God [is indeed] a consuming fire.

    Just a thought or 2 that I think are important to consider.

    SamFox

  • Oh my, where to start.

    Lets quote some of the Scripture

    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

    Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

    Mar 13:34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

    Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

    Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

    Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

    Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

    There are many more, what they have in common? The Lord warns us that no one knows the day or the hour.

    Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    If you take the Post Tribulation position or the Mid Tribulation position you must know the day or the hour because Mid Tribulation happens after 3 1/2 years and Post Tribulation after 7 years, so how do you know when the Tribulation starts? If you know when, they you know more than Jesus Himself.

    None of the positions are mentioned in the Bible, each person reads the Bible and find the verses that according with their opinions fit the bill.

    I am Pre-Tribulation, I have read many verses in the New and in the Old Testaments that prove this theology. Dont agree with me, tough is your problem, no mine.

    The bottom line is that we cannot let the devil to keep dividing the brothers in Christ in such pitiful arguments.

    Shalom to all, I keep my eyes in the Lord because His coming is at hand.

  • Understanding the “falling away” of II Thessalonians Chapter 2

    II Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
    Introductory comments about this passage

    This passage is often cited as one of the main objections to the pre-tribulational rapture. I am going to try and exegete this passage to the best of my ability in hopes that it will clear up any confusion where the pre-trib rapture is concerned. I don’t want anyone to have to go through the terrible tribulation period because of a misunderstanding. I know that some say that one’s eschatology position is trivial and we shouldn’t even discuss it. I disagree wholeheartedly for several reasons. First, we are commanded to study the scriptures to shew ourselves approved unto God, and to “rightly divide” the word of truth. In my mind, that means we should leave no stone unturned when it comes to studying the various aspects of the bible. Secondly, it is my personal opinion, that one’s attitude toward the rapture will determine whether or not he/she participates in that rapture. We are exhorted to “not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” There are those that will disagree with me (and that’s ok-I don’t have a monopoly on the truth), but I happen to believe that one who is looking for the imminent return of Christ lives differently than one who does not. Over and over in the scriptures we are commanded to watch, and that the hope of Jesus’ soon return is a motivation to personal purity. Also we must keep in mind, that any view other than the pre-trib view, violates the doctrine of imminence, which is found throughout the scriptures.

    Now let’s look at the passage

    II Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

    This may seem like a small thing, but notice that there is a distinction made between the “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “our gathering together unto him.” When Jesus comes to the earth it will be to set up the kindgom. Take a look at the Strong’s concordance definition for the “coming” of the LORD described here.

    1.presence

    2.the coming, arrival, advent

    a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

    For time’s sake, I’m not going to list all the differences between the second coming and the rapture in this article. For more information and contrasts between those two events, check out article Why the rapture must occur before the tribulation Suffice it to say, that at the rapture, Jesus comes to the clouds and “them that look for him” will go up to meet Him in the air. When he returns to the earth (i.e. the “parousia”) “every eye will see Him” (Rev 1) including the ungodly as they are brought into judgement. We (the overcoming church coming from all the nations of the world) will be “gathered” together unto Christ and will meet him in the air (I Thess 4). This “gathering” was prophesied thousands of years before in the book of Genesis.

    Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be

    Moving on………………..

    II Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    This “day of Christ” is accepted by most scholars as the thousand year (or millenial) reign of Christ that begins when Jesus sets His feet upon the mount of olives. (Remember at the rapture, He only comes to the clouds and stops, but at the “parousia” He returns to the earth to set up the kindgom.

    II Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

    I Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south

    Once we understand the context of these verses, we can then begin to understand why these Christians at Thessalonica were a little anxious. They weren’t afraid that the tribulation had passed them by, they were afraid that they had missed out in being part of the coming kingdom! Then Paul explains to them that there are a few things that must happen before the coming kingdom (thousand year reign) begins. And with that in mind, we proceed to one of the most misunderstood and misquoted passages in the entire word of God.

    Understanding the “falling away” of verse 3

    II Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    First we must remember what Paul is referring to when he says “that day shall not come…..” He’s talking about that “day of Christ (or day of the LORD)” characterized by the thousand year reign beginning when Jesus literally sets His foot on the mount of Olives. Paul says that the millenial kingdom will not begin until two things happen. First, there must be a “falling away.” It is Strong’s concordance reference number #646 and the word is “apostacia”

    Interestingly enough, the word apostacia is only used twice in the entire word of God. It is used here in II Thessalonians, and translated as “falling away.” It is used also in Acts and the 21st chapter.

    Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

    In this verse, apostacia is translated as “forsake.” Here in Acts, Paul is being falsely accused of instructing Jewish believers to abandon all of their customs. I credit a dear brother in Iowa for pointing something out to me that I had not considered. Many translators believe that the falling away referenced in II Thessalonians refers to the rapture (some translations render it “departure” instead of falling away, the rebellion, etc.). This brother showed me the fallacy in this line of thinking because the only other time the word “apostacia” is used in the scriptures- it has a negative connotation-not a positive departure, but rather a negative one. Just as Paul being accused of telling the Jews to “forsake” Moses and their customs was an undesirable thing- so also is the “falling away” in II Thessalonians. It is not a joyful departure from this earth, but rather a theological and personal departure from faith in Christ!

    Jesus foretold as we get closer to the end of the church age, there will be many who turn away from the faith. I don’t often cite other translations, but I think it’s useful in this instance to see how different versions translate this passage of scripture found in Matthew 24.

    Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved (NIV)

    Matthew 24:10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (NASB)

    In the KJV version, the word is translated in verse 10 as “offended” The Greek word used is “Skandalizo” (Strongs #4624) and is translated various ways, but it carries a far deeper meaning than just getting one’s feelings hurt. The implication is that the offence or stumblingblock is so great that it causes one to turn away from Christ and join the ranks of those who persecute true believers.

    Paul warned Timothy in the pastoral epistles, that as we draw nearer and nearer to the end of the age, people will turn away from Christ.

    I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

    Here is a textbook definition of the masculine form- apostasion (Strongs #647).

    Apostacion

    1. divorce, repudiation
    2. a bill of divorce

    So once again, we see that this “falling away” is a negative thing- not a desirable result like the rapture of the church!

    But Don’t Despair!!!-There is still strong evidence for the pre-trib rapture in the upcoming verses

    II Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    This is the second thing that must happen before the coming of Christ to the earth (again, not the rapture but the second coming)- the revealing of antichrist. Now this should send a red-flag to anyone who believes a view other than pre-trib. Here we see that the antichrist will sit in the temple, shewing himself to be God. This poses a problem for those who believe the church will still be here. Take a look at this passage:

    John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers

    There’s no way that the Spirit-filled overcoming church would ever fall for this man sitting in a temple and proclaiming that he’s God. I would also caution against a “spiritualization” of this text. There are some which view the “temple” as referring to believers. I have a problem with that view for several reasons. Number one, it is always risky to take an allegorical view of scripture. Any time we can take a literal interpretation of scripture and make sense of it, we should go with that. Another problem I have is that Christ will not share His temple with the devil. This concept is throughtout the scriptures, but Christ made it clear that we cannot serve two masters. If Christ is in the temple-there is no room for the devil!

    II Thess 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    Of course, the apostle Paul had already covered the bases with them in I Thessalonians (especially the 4th and 5th chapters). He had already taught them that the church would meet the LORD in the air/clouds, therefore they would not be subject to deception taking place in an earthly temple.

    II Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    Paul is explaining to them that they should know that something his “withholding” the antichrist (or man of sin if you prefer) from being revealed in his time. What is that withholding force you ask? It is none other than the overcoming church, full of the Holy Ghost! This is not his time, but it is the church’s time right now!

    Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

    We are not the whipping post of the devil or his man of sin!

    Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

    Ok, let’s keep going…….

    I Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way

    Again, the Holy Spirit goes to great lengths to explain the details. He says that yes-the “spirit” of antichrist is already here in the earth. But, right now the church full of the Holy Ghost is restraining (or “letting” in the KJV version) until he is taken out of the way.

    I John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time

    Here, John is telling us that the “spirit” of antichrist is here, but the salt and light of the earth (the church) is keeping the antichrist from being revealed in the earth. He further illustrates this in the 4th chapter.

    I John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    I don’t know how much plainer it could be! The church is made up of overcomers who are “letting” or hindering, or restraining the evil flood tide of antichrist until we are taken out of the way (by the way of rapture is the implication of course!)

    II Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    This is vital information. The church full of the Holy Ghost, will be taken out of the earth (by the apostacia or departure/rapture), and then evil and the devil will be unleashed on the earth. Then and only then will the Wicked one be revealed. And we know how the story ends of course. The Lord returns (“with” his saints-not “for” them) to destroy the antichrist and his evil regime.

    Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him

    Some final thoughts

    I hope that this article will provide some clarity to a hotly debated topic. I realize that this is a sensitive issue, but I ask you to prayerfully read and consider what has been written in this article. I don’t want readers of this article to think that the rapture/catching away takes place after the tribulation, thus destroying the need to watch and live temperate/holy in this present dispensation. Jesus is truly coming after a bride without spot, blemish, wrinkle, or any such thing. Let us strive to be that pure and holy bride with our lamps burning, and our vessels full of the oil of the Holy Spirit.

    God bless you as you study His word!

    • Hopefully we enter a thoughtful discussion…

      With all respect Steve, let me cite a perfect example of esiogesis that you used.

      ” Again, the Holy Spirit goes to great lengths to explain the details. He says that yes-the “spirit” of antichrist is already here in the earth. But, right now the church full of the Holy Ghost is restraining (or “letting” in the KJV version) until he is taken out of the way. ”

      Here is the verse you refer to, from the Amplified. Taken from BibleGateWay.com:

      2 Thessalonians 2:7
      For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way.

      We see the ‘ ‘he’ who restrains’ & is taken away, in the face of the verse, but no explanation as to who ‘he’ is. Like those who teach the PTR is true, you over lay [esiogete]the definition of ‘he’ as the church. But the verse itself does not say that.

      You go on to say that when the church is taken away the man of sin is loosed. So in the light of this statement of yours, how could 144,000 “Jewish evangelists” be raised up? You said the Holy Spirit in the church is gone…so how could the 144,000 have what some PTR books say will be the greatest revival of all? With the restraint gone & AC in full force, how could that be?

      You also say that the church is made up of restrainers. How well are they doing at restraining false doctrine like the emerging church stuff? The prosperity gospel? The sex sin that has made huge headlines? Stuff like that?

      Plus, even if there were 144,000 who had a revival, why would not each of them also be qualified for their own rapture?

      Which part of the Book is for us, pre-trib & for those ‘left behind’? If pre-trib can be raptured, how could post trib be left? Post-T HAVE to be in Messiah’s Church to be saved…just like we are.

      So you STILL have the Church in the Trib, no matter how you slice & dice the Word. 🙂 , just a different part.

      How do you fit this into your teaching?

      Matthew 13:30 Amplified from BibleGateWay
      Let them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will say to the reapers, Gather the darnel first and bind it in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my granary.

      Matthew 13:37-39

      37 He answered, He Who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

      38 The field is the world, and the good seed means the children of the kingdom; the darnel is the children of the evil one,

      39 And the enemy who sowed it is the devil. The harvest is the close and consummation of the age, and the reapers are angels.

      No esiogesis needed,the verses speak VERY plainly on their face here. Yeshua HIMSELF shoots down the possibility of a “two stage 2nd advent that = only one 2nd coming that leaves a future part of the church behind”, the boiled down definition of the PTR.

      I say we need a relationship with Father MUCH more than a ‘rapture’. In Corinthians there is the definition of our escape. Psalm 91 is where we go while on earth, not to heaven.

      1 Corinthians 10:13
      For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.

      I think the sin that stumbles many in the church, bringing the falling away in Thess., will be the temptation to take the mark. Are you ready to overcome that temptation? Are you prepared to tell the AC to stick it’s mark up it’s nose?

      Extra oil my friend, that’s whatcha need, not an easy escape to spite all the martyrs of Yeshua Messiah that have gone the long, hard way…lions, burning at the stake…read Fox’s Book Of Martyrs & Hebrews 11.

      If you want the pre-trib path of least resistance, you are in the wrong place. Father NEVER promised to fly any one over their trials & temptations. But HE DID promise to take you through IF YOU are willing to endure to the end & love not your life even to death… See the 1Cor. 10 verse above.

      So gird up your loins & get ready for a long endurance run, not a PTR sprint.

      SamFox

  • Understanding the “falling away” of II Thessalonians Chapter 2

    II Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
    Introductory comments about this passage

    This passage is often cited as one of the main objections to the pre-tribulational rapture. I am going to try and exegete this passage to the best of my ability in hopes that it will clear up any confusion where the pre-trib rapture is concerned. I don’t want anyone to have to go through the terrible tribulation period because of a misunderstanding. I know that some say that one’s eschatology position is trivial and we shouldn’t even discuss it. I disagree wholeheartedly for several reasons. First, we are commanded to study the scriptures to shew ourselves approved unto God, and to “rightly divide” the word of truth. In my mind, that means we should leave no stone unturned when it comes to studying the various aspects of the bible. Secondly, it is my personal opinion, that one’s attitude toward the rapture will determine whether or not he/she participates in that rapture. We are exhorted to “not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” There are those that will disagree with me (and that’s ok-I don’t have a monopoly on the truth), but I happen to believe that one who is looking for the imminent return of Christ lives differently than one who does not. Over and over in the scriptures we are commanded to watch, and that the hope of Jesus’ soon return is a motivation to personal purity. Also we must keep in mind, that any view other than the pre-trib view, violates the doctrine of imminence, which is found throughout the scriptures.

    Now let’s look at the passage

    II Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

    This may seem like a small thing, but notice that there is a distinction made between the “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “our gathering together unto him.” When Jesus comes to the earth it will be to set up the kindgom. Take a look at the Strong’s concordance definition for the “coming” of the LORD described here.

    1.presence

    2.the coming, arrival, advent

    a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

    For time’s sake, I’m not going to list all the differences between the second coming and the rapture in this article. For more information and contrasts between those two events, check out article Why the rapture must occur before the tribulation Suffice it to say, that at the rapture, Jesus comes to the clouds and “them that look for him” will go up to meet Him in the air. When he returns to the earth (i.e. the “parousia”) “every eye will see Him” (Rev 1) including the ungodly as they are brought into judgement. We (the overcoming church coming from all the nations of the world) will be “gathered” together unto Christ and will meet him in the air (I Thess 4). This “gathering” was prophesied thousands of years before in the book of Genesis.

    Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be

    Moving on………………..

    II Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    This “day of Christ” is accepted by most scholars as the thousand year (or millenial) reign of Christ that begins when Jesus sets His feet upon the mount of olives. (Remember at the rapture, He only comes to the clouds and stops, but at the “parousia” He returns to the earth to set up the kindgom.

    II Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

    I Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south

    Once we understand the context of these verses, we can then begin to understand why these Christians at Thessalonica were a little anxious. They weren’t afraid that the tribulation had passed them by, they were afraid that they had missed out in being part of the coming kingdom! Then Paul explains to them that there are a few things that must happen before the coming kingdom (thousand year reign) begins. And with that in mind, we proceed to one of the most misunderstood and misquoted passages in the entire word of God.

    Understanding the “falling away” of verse 3

    II Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    First we must remember what Paul is referring to when he says “that day shall not come…..” He’s talking about that “day of Christ (or day of the LORD)” characterized by the thousand year reign beginning when Jesus literally sets His foot on the mount of Olives. Paul says that the millenial kingdom will not begin until two things happen. First, there must be a “falling away.” It is Strong’s concordance reference number #646 and the word is “apostacia”

    Interestingly enough, the word apostacia is only used twice in the entire word of God. It is used here in II Thessalonians, and translated as “falling away.” It is used also in Acts and the 21st chapter.

    Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

    In this verse, apostacia is translated as “forsake.” Here in Acts, Paul is being falsely accused of instructing Jewish believers to abandon all of their customs. I credit a dear brother in Iowa for pointing something out to me that I had not considered. Many translators believe that the falling away referenced in II Thessalonians refers to the rapture (some translations render it “departure” instead of falling away, the rebellion, etc.). This brother showed me the fallacy in this line of thinking because the only other time the word “apostacia” is used in the scriptures- it has a negative connotation-not a positive departure, but rather a negative one. Just as Paul being accused of telling the Jews to “forsake” Moses and their customs was an undesirable thing- so also is the “falling away” in II Thessalonians. It is not a joyful departure from this earth, but rather a theological and personal departure from faith in Christ!

    Jesus foretold as we get closer to the end of the church age, there will be many who turn away from the faith. I don’t often cite other translations, but I think it’s useful in this instance to see how different versions translate this passage of scripture found in Matthew 24.

    Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved (NIV)

    Matthew 24:10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (NASB)

    In the KJV version, the word is translated in verse 10 as “offended” The Greek word used is “Skandalizo” (Strongs #4624) and is translated various ways, but it carries a far deeper meaning than just getting one’s feelings hurt. The implication is that the offence or stumblingblock is so great that it causes one to turn away from Christ and join the ranks of those who persecute true believers.

    Paul warned Timothy in the pastoral epistles, that as we draw nearer and nearer to the end of the age, people will turn away from Christ.

    I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

    Here is a textbook definition of the masculine form- apostasion (Strongs #647).

    Apostacion

    1. divorce, repudiation
    2. a bill of divorce

    So once again, we see that this “falling away” is a negative thing- not a desirable result like the rapture of the church!

    But Don’t Despair!!!-There is still strong evidence for the pre-trib rapture in the upcoming verses

    II Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    This is the second thing that must happen before the coming of Christ to the earth (again, not the rapture but the second coming)- the revealing of antichrist. Now this should send a red-flag to anyone who believes a view other than pre-trib. Here we see that the antichrist will sit in the temple, shewing himself to be God. This poses a problem for those who believe the church will still be here. Take a look at this passage:

    John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers

    There’s no way that the Spirit-filled overcoming church would ever fall for this man sitting in a temple and proclaiming that he’s God. I would also caution against a “spiritualization” of this text. There are some which view the “temple” as referring to believers. I have a problem with that view for several reasons. Number one, it is always risky to take an allegorical view of scripture. Any time we can take a literal interpretation of scripture and make sense of it, we should go with that. Another problem I have is that Christ will not share His temple with the devil. This concept is throughtout the scriptures, but Christ made it clear that we cannot serve two masters. If Christ is in the temple-there is no room for the devil!

    II Thess 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    Of course, the apostle Paul had already covered the bases with them in I Thessalonians (especially the 4th and 5th chapters). He had already taught them that the church would meet the LORD in the air/clouds, therefore they would not be subject to deception taking place in an earthly temple.

    II Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    Paul is explaining to them that they should know that something his “withholding” the antichrist (or man of sin if you prefer) from being revealed in his time. What is that withholding force you ask? It is none other than the overcoming church, full of the Holy Ghost! This is not his time, but it is the church’s time right now!

    Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

    We are not the whipping post of the devil or his man of sin!

    Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

    Ok, let’s keep going…….

    I Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way

    Again, the Holy Spirit goes to great lengths to explain the details. He says that yes-the “spirit” of antichrist is already here in the earth. But, right now the church full of the Holy Ghost is restraining (or “letting” in the KJV version) until he is taken out of the way.

    I John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time

    Here, John is telling us that the “spirit” of antichrist is here, but the salt and light of the earth (the church) is keeping the antichrist from being revealed in the earth. He further illustrates this in the 4th chapter.

    I John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    I don’t know how much plainer it could be! The church is made up of overcomers who are “letting” or hindering, or restraining the evil flood tide of antichrist until we are taken out of the way (by the way of rapture is the implication of course!)

    II Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    This is vital information. The church full of the Holy Ghost, will be taken out of the earth (by the apostacia or departure/rapture), and then evil and the devil will be unleashed on the earth. Then and only then will the Wicked one be revealed. And we know how the story ends of course. The Lord returns (“with” his saints-not “for” them) to destroy the antichrist and his evil regime.

    Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him

    Some final thoughts

    I hope that this article will provide some clarity to a hotly debated topic. I realize that this is a sensitive issue, but I ask you to prayerfully read and consider what has been written in this article. I don’t want readers of this article to think that the rapture/catching away takes place after the tribulation, thus destroying the need to watch and live temperate/holy in this present dispensation. Jesus is truly coming after a bride without spot, blemish, wrinkle, or any such thing. Let us strive to be that pure and holy bride with our lamps burning, and our vessels full of the oil of the Holy Spirit.

    God bless you as you study His word!!

  • I posted yesterday but didnt get publish so I will retry today.

    What you all are missing is that the 7 years of Tribulation has nothing to do with the Church, the 7 years of Tribulation is God’s Judgment upon Israel. Israel rejected their Messiah Jesus Christ and for that reason they are going to be judged during the 7 years of Tribulation.

    It is going to be like a trial where Israel will be judged by God, they will be sentenced and when the punishment comes upon them, it is when Jesus Christ will come down from Heaven to save Israel.

  • All of you pre tribbers are just going around the same bush and continue to refuse to deal with the scriptures.

    When we look at Matt 24, we see that Jesus Himself tells us that the gathering of His people will occur AFTER THE END OF THE TRIBULATION!

    So, Mario & Steve,

    Either Jesus was WRONG or YOU ARE!

    I vote for you being wrong. If you disagree, then you are saying Jesus was wrong.

    Go back to the beginning and answer the 4 questions I asked. But you won’t. You will just claim that I am deceived or something and ignore those questions.

    But God does not ignore them and YOU will have to answer them to Him one day and explain why you taught a lie!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    PS: I give up attempting to point you all to the scriptures and the questions that have been asked. You want to be deceived, you do not LOVE the TRUTH, and with that attitude, you are headed to perdition according to II Thes 2:9-12

    Farewell!

  • im not particularly concerned what you think in regards to me being right or wrong, there is not one christian out there that agrees with another christian on every single aspect of the Bible Apostle Paul Expected it,

    1Co 11:18 For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and I partly believe it.
    1Co 11:19 For there must also be heresies among you, that the approved ones may be revealed among you.

    i could show you countless verses that speaks of differences among christians but i wont for time sake, but in a nutshell every one has different views and my view is mine i dont teach it, its my personal opinion.

    “go back to the beginning and answer the 4 questions i asked” lol not being funny but why? i didn’t come to this topic of the rapture to answer your questions and under what right do you have to say that i will claim that i will say you are deceived? what can you tell the future now? or are you judging my response towards you in comparison to the previous responses you have got from others? on here i posted an article,opinion and impression i have on the rapture on here for why i think the rapture must occur before the tribulation and then out of no where you are commanding i answer your questions and if i dont i will probably call you deceived, more to the point a pre, mid or post wont affect my salvation and i am not teaching a pre either so i will not have to answer for it, it is simply my impression of what i think the end of times will consist of.

    • Steve, Dirk is correct. Did not Paul say

      1 Corinthians 15:52
      In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed…

      The last trumpet call is the 7th trumpet that is found in Revelation.

      Steve, if your teaching were sound you would easily be able to answer Dirk’s Q’s. Why do you brush them off?

      SamFox

  • MATTHEW 24:31: RAPTURE OR SECOND COMING?
    Tom’s Perspectives
    by Thomas Ice
    Many non-pretribulationists contend that Matthew 24:31 teaches a posttribulational
    rapture. All agree that this passage teaches Christ’s second coming. This means that
    the question revolves around whether Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27 its parallel passage)
    is a reference to the rapture or not. I contend that the rapture is not in view in this
    passage. The text reads as follows:
    “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the
    powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man
    will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they
    will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great
    glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will
    gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the
    other. (Matthew 24:29-31)
    POSTTRIBULATIONAL POSITION
    Popular posttribulational radio personality, Irwin Baxter, believes that the rapture and
    the second coming “are the same event” in Matthew 24:31.1 “Matthew 24:29 teaches
    that the coming of the Son of man and the rapture are the same event,” contends
    Baxter. He arrives at this conclusion by comparing Matthew 24:29-31 to Christ’s return
    in Revelation 19. In the discussion cited, Baxter does not refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-
    18, the undisputed rapture passage, as a baseline for defining the rapture.
    Posttribulational rapture scholar, Dr. Robert Gundry, also equates the rapture with
    the second coming in Matthew 24:31. “Posttribulationists,” contends Gundry, “equate
    the rapture with the gathering of the elect by angels at the sound of the trumpet (Matt.
    24:31).”2 Unlike Irwin Baxter, Dr. Gundry does interact with the rapture passage (1
    Thessalonians 4:13-18). He says, “If we define the rapture strictly as a catching up,
    only one passage in the entire New Testament describes it. That passage is 1
    Thessalonians 4:13-18.”3
    DEFINITION OF THE RAPTURE
    As noted earlier, Baxter does not even attempt to define the rapture. Apparently this
    allows Baxter flexibility to find the rapture in Matthew 24:31. As noted above, Dr.
    Gundry includes in his definition of the rapture “a catching up” from 1 Thessalonians
    4:13-18. Dr. Gundry wants to “broaden the definition to include a gathering or
    reception” from Matthew 24:31, etc.4 Since the present debate is whether or not
    Matthew 24:31 is a rapture passage, it would beg the question to include Matthew 24:31
    in an a priori definition of the rapture.
    1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the only undisputed passage describing the rapture event.
    Only in this passage is the Greek word harpazô (“caught up”) used, from which the word
    http://www.pre-trib.org
    2
    rapture descends. Whatever else the rapture may include in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it
    clearly consists of a translation of living believers and the simultaneous resurrection of
    dead saints.
    COMPARISON OF 1 THESSALONIANS 4:17 AND MATTHEW 24:31
    In an attempt to equate Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as referring to the
    same event, Dr. Gundry notes “parallel terminology in Paul’s Thessalonian discussion of
    the Church’s rapture, where we read of a trumpet, clouds, and a gathering of believers
    just as in the Olivet Discourse.”5 Indeed, there are some similarities between the
    rapture and the second coming. There are also some similarities between Christ’s first
    advent 2,000 years ago and His second advent. But all agree that they are not the
    same events. We know they are not the same because of the differences. In the case
    of comparing Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it is the differences that are
    important. Enough differences exist between the two passages to clearly conclude that
    they must be separate events.
    Dr. Steven McAvoy points out that “the differences between Paul’s Thessalonian
    statements and Matthew 24:30-31 far outweigh any alleged similarities.”6 Dr. McAvoy
    continues:
    Sproule asks,
    Where does Paul mention the darkening of the sun (Matt. 24:29), the
    moon not giving its light (Matt. 24:29), the stars falling from the sky (Matt.
    24:29), the powers of the heavens being shaken (Matt. 24:29), all the
    tribes of the earth mourning (Matt. 24:30), all the world seeing the coming
    of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:30), or God sending forth angels (Matt.
    24:31)?7
    Feinberg also notes the dissimilarities between the two accounts:
    Notice what happens when you examine both passages carefully. In
    Matthew the Son of Man comes on the clouds, while in 1 Thessalonians 4
    the ascending believers are in them. In Matthew the angels gather the
    elect; in 1 Thessalonians the Lord Himself (note the emphasis) gathers the
    believers. Thessalonians only speaks of the voice of the archangel. In
    the Olivet Discourse nothing is said about a resurrection, while in the latter
    text it is the central point. In the two passages the differences in what will
    take place prior to the appearance of Christ is striking. Moreover, the
    order of ascent is absent from Matthew in spite of the fact that it is the
    central part of the epistle.8 9
    In addition to the above differences, the order of events are different between the
    two passages. In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to
    heaven, while in Matthew 24 they are gathered after Christ’s arrival to earth. “In order
    for Gundry to establish his view that Matthew 24:31 refers to the rapture, he must
    reconcile the dissimilarities; not simple point to a few similarities.”10 Thus, the
    http://www.pre-trib.org
    3
    differences in the two passages support the pretribulational contention that they are
    speak of two distinct events.
    WHO ARE THE ELECT?
    I believe the elect in Matthew 24 is a reference to the Jewish remnant who will come
    to faith in the Messiahship of Jesus during the tribulation period. Commentators
    generally recognize that “elect” “may refer to Israel, to the Church, or to both.”11 The
    context is the determinative factor in any attempt to discover which nuance the author
    intended. The contextual usage of Matthew supports the elect as a reference to Israel
    because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. “Such terms as the gospel of the
    kingdom (24:14), the holy place (24:15), the Sabbath (24:20), and the Messiah (24:23-
    24) indicate that Israel as a nation is in view,”12 observes Dr. Stanley Toussaint. Dr.
    Renald Showers provides a more focused explanation:
    The elect are the faithful, believing Israelite remnant in contrast with the
    unbelieving sinners within the nation. In Isaiah 65:7-16 God drew a contrast
    between these two groups and their destinies. In verse 9 He called the
    believing remnant “mine Elect,” and in verses 17-25 He indicated that in the
    future Millennium His elect remnant of the nation will be blessed greatly on
    the earth.13
    Since the term “elect” is used three times in Matthew 24 (verses 22, 24, 31; see also
    Mark 13:20, 22, 27), it is most likely that the author uses it to refer to the same entity all
    three times. Dr. McAvoy says, “The rule of context precludes understanding ‘elect’ in
    24:22, 24 as referring to Israel and then nine verses later as referring to the church.
    Without some indication of transition from one intended meaning to another ‘elect’ in
    24:21 must mean the same as it does in 24:22, 24.”14
    THE ANGELIC GATHERING
    To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is
    found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages,
    specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this
    angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a
    regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they
    will live for a thousand years during Christ’s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines,
    the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the
    support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of
    Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:
    The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had
    to say about the second facet of Israel’s final restoration. Its purpose was to
    make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be
    fulfilled only after the second coming.15
    http://www.pre-trib.org
    4
    Dr. Renald Showers has done an excellent job collecting evidence and arguing for
    this view.16 After noting that “from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other”
    means that “the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ’s coming,”17 Dr.
    Showers provides three lines of proof for his view as follows:
    First, because of Israel’s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that
    He would scatter the Jews “into all the winds” (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or “toward all
    winds” (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them
    abroad “as four winds of the heavens.” . . . God did scatter the Jews all over
    the world.
    Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from
    the east, west, north, and south, “from the ends of the earth” (Isa. 43:5-7).
    We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His
    “chosen” (vv. 10, 20).
    . . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four
    directions of the world will take place in conjunction with “a great trumpet”
    (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that
    the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in
    conjunction with the blowing of “a great trumpet” (literal translation of the
    Hebrew). . . .
    Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day “a great horn
    shall be blown (Is. 27:13)” and the exiled will be brought back by that signal.
    Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of
    Isaiah 27:13, “There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the
    dispersed to Zion.”
    It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future
    regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a
    “great” trumpet.
    Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to
    Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its
    context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1,
    10) comes to rule and transform the world as an “ensign” (a banner), He will
    gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel “from the four
    corners of the earth.”18
    What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will
    fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a
    prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish
    Daily Prayer Book.19
    CONCLUSION
    It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31
    cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context
    and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He
    http://www.pre-trib.org
    5
    speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for
    the Millennium. At Christ’s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His
    desire to gather Israel to Himself “the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
    and you were unwilling” (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon
    Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, “Blessed is He who comes in the
    name of the LORD!” (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39). Maranatha!

    • Steve, your post is so far out of sync with the written Word it’s hard to believe you read the Bible.

      I’ll only address one point. One of who goes by direct statements of the Book have probably already answered most of your false teaching.

      Elect: Who is elect? NOW, in New Covenant times, it is every one, Jew or not, who has taken Yeshua Messiah’s sacrifice for their sin & made Him Lord & Savior.
      Romans 8:32-34
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      32 He who did not withhold or spare [even] His own Son but gave Him up for us all, will He not also with Him freely and graciously give us all [other] things?
      33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect [when it is] God Who justifies [that is, Who puts us in right relation to Himself? Who shall come forward and accuse or impeach those whom God has chosen? Will God, Who acquits us?]

      2 Peter 1
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:…
      10 Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall.

      Romans 8 AMP, BibleGateWay–
      33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect [when it is] God Who justifies [that is, Who puts us in right relation to Himself? Who shall come forward and accuse or impeach those whom God has chosen? Will God, Who acquits us?]

      “Us” in the above verse is Jew & Gentile. You remember, the one new man Father will make of Jew & Gentile…Romans was written to a Jewish Synagogue, right? 🙂
      Ephesians 1–
      11 In Him we also were made [God’s] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will,…

      “We”, again, Jew & Gentile.

      Colossians 3:12
      Clothe yourselves therefore, as God’s own chosen ones (His own picked representatives), [who are] purified and holy and well-beloved [by God Himself,…

      There is more, but IO gotta go. Please read the Book without trying to proof text. Also please read the whole chapters where the above verses are located.

      Thanks.

      SamFox

  • Many today, who hold to the belief that Christians will go through the tribulation period, would have you believe that Matthew 24 states that the rapture will happen at the end of the tribulation period (Second Coming of Christ). Unfortunately, they have completely misinterpreted this scripture.

    Let’s take a look at the scripture you are talking about:

    [29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Let me start by saying that Matthew 24 is a summation of the beginning church age through the Second Coming of Christ. Verse 29 speaks about the latter part of the tribulation period just before the appearing of our Lord. Verse 30 picks up with Christ visibly coming with the Saints of God who have already been raptured prior to the beginning of the tribulation period. Revelation 19:14 describes this great event:

    “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”

    This is a consistent Biblical description of the Saints (Zechariah 14:5; I Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14; Jude 1:14; Revelation 4:4).

    It’s also generally believed by most Bible scholars that the rapture will happen as a thief in the night (I Thessalonians 5:1-4) or someone who comes unannounced and steals something away during the night. Certainly, the rapture will take the world by surprise, but after it occurs, will cause great panic the next day. But no where does it allude to anyone visibly seeing Jesus, this thief in the night, in the clouds. Matthew 24:30 couldn’t possibly be talking about the rapture because the “tribes of the earth [will] mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven”. This is not consistent with any of the scriptural descriptions of the rapture.

    Verse 31 continues with the events of the Second Coming. At this time, Jesus will send His angels with the sound of a trumpet and they will gather up the elect from around the world. This angelic gathering of the Saints is inconsistent with the description of the Biblical rapture found in I Thessalonians 4:13-18. This is what it says:

    [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Verse 15-17 explains that we that are alive when the rapture occurs will not prevent those that have gone before us from rising (being raptured). In fact, it states they (the dead) will be raptured first…then we which are alive will be caught up (raptured). There is no mention of Jesus sending His angels throughout the world to gather the elect (Christians) in this passage, which describes the rapture in detail. When the trumpet sounds we will be immediately ushered up without delay “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye”.

    The swiftness of the catching away is made evident in I Corinthians 15:51-52:

    [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Do you know how long a twinkling of an eye is? It’s believed that a twinkling of an eye is faster than the eye can see which is much faster than sending angels throughout the world to gather the elect.

    So who are the elect of Matthew 24:31? They are those who have come to know the Lord during the great tribulation period and have not been slain by the antichrist. Two things you should know about the tribulation period…it will be a time of unprecedented horror and it will also bring about the greatest revival the world has ever seen. Many untold millions will come to know the Lord during this timeframe. One thing is for sure, there will be no lukewarm Christians, atheists or agnostics during the tribulation period. It will literally be a matter of life and death and you will either be sold out for the Lord or sold out for the antichrist.

    It should also be stated that those who die for their faith during this period will immediately go to be with the Lord as describe in Revelation 7:9-17. For they are those who will come out of great tribulation. So it is plain that they are executed during the tribulation period. But not every Christian will be slain during the tribulation period. God will protect many Christians during the tribulation period who will refuse to take the mark and choose to worship God. They are the elect that Matthew 24:31 is speaking of and they will go into the millennium and repopulate the earth. Christ will at this time set up His earthly kingdom and those Christians who come back with Him (slain and raptured) will share in His 1000-year reign.

    Matthew 24:44 leaves Christians with a stern warning to be ready for we do not know the hour of His coming.

    It’s plain to me that the rapture will be a surprise and will shock the world. This could not be the case at the end of the tribulation period, the world will be totally destroyed and in turmoil. They will mourn and it will be for good reason. It should also be noted that the tribulation period is clearly stated in scripture as lasting two halves of 1260 days (forty-two months x 2) with the start of this period beginning with the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and the antichrist. Simple math would obviously take away the “thief in the night” Biblical description of the rapture.

    Lastly, here is a question that I have presented to many a believer in the post-tribulation rapture. To date, no one has ever been able to step forward with a Biblical answer. Here’s the question:

    If Christian’s who are alive today go through the tribulation period (not raptured before) then who will Christ rule over when He (Jesus) comes to reign for one-thousand years on earth (Millennium)? According to those who believe Christians will go through the tribulation period, if the rapture and the Second Coming occur at the end of the tribulation period who will be left on the earth for Christians to reign over? You must remember that I Thessalonians 4:13-18 says that every Christian will be raptured who is on the earth. The Bible also says that everyone outside of Christians will take the mark and it’s clear they will be executed at the Second Coming of the Lord (Matthew 25:31-32). With that said, I ask again, who will be left on the earth to enter into the Millennium once Christians are raptured (if they are raptured at the Second Coming)?

    Until I get an intelligent answer to this question I’m afraid I will continue to believe that I Thessalonians 4:13-18 (among other scriptures) supports a pre-tribulation rapture.

    • Steve says, “In the discussion cited, Baxter does not refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-
      18, the undisputed rapture passage, as a baseline for defining the rapture.”

      There are many who dispute that 1 Thess is a PTR verse. There are NO direct statements that back up the 2 stage 2nd coming/appearing/return of the Lord.

      You can point to NO verses that on their face back you up. You have to cut & paste & even defy the Lord’s words. HE makes it DIRECTLY clear in the parable of the wheat & tares, when HE said “I will raise them up at the LAST DAY.” John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 & 12:48. And he that endures to the END, Math. 10:22–24:13–Mark 13:13

      Paul teaches that we are changed AT THE LAST TRUMP, NOT BEFORE.

      I advise quit looking for the easy way out. Jesus didn’t set us that kind of example. Pay the price for extra oil. We are all gonna need it.

      SamFox

      • No editing option, so I leave a correction.

        HE makes it DIRECTLY clear in the parable of the wheat & tares, when HE said

        After ‘tares,’ I forgot to put in an ‘and’.

        Thanks

        SamFox

  • MATTHEW 24:31: RAPTURE OR SECOND COMING?
    Tom’s Perspectives
    by Thomas Ice
    Many non-pretribulationists contend that Matthew 24:31 teaches a posttribulational
    rapture. All agree that this passage teaches Christ’s second coming. This means that
    the question revolves around whether Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27 its parallel passage)
    is a reference to the rapture or not. I contend that the rapture is not in view in this
    passage. The text reads as follows:
    “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the
    powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man
    will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they
    will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great
    glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will
    gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the
    other. (Matthew 24:29-31)
    POSTTRIBULATIONAL POSITION
    Popular posttribulational radio personality, Irwin Baxter, believes that the rapture and
    the second coming “are the same event” in Matthew 24:31.1 “Matthew 24:29 teaches
    that the coming of the Son of man and the rapture are the same event,” contends
    Baxter. He arrives at this conclusion by comparing Matthew 24:29-31 to Christ’s return
    in Revelation 19. In the discussion cited, Baxter does not refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-
    18, the undisputed rapture passage, as a baseline for defining the rapture.
    Posttribulational rapture scholar, Dr. Robert Gundry, also equates the rapture with
    the second coming in Matthew 24:31. “Posttribulationists,” contends Gundry, “equate
    the rapture with the gathering of the elect by angels at the sound of the trumpet (Matt.
    24:31).”2 Unlike Irwin Baxter, Dr. Gundry does interact with the rapture passage (1
    Thessalonians 4:13-18). He says, “If we define the rapture strictly as a catching up,
    only one passage in the entire New Testament describes it. That passage is 1
    Thessalonians 4:13-18.”3
    DEFINITION OF THE RAPTURE
    As noted earlier, Baxter does not even attempt to define the rapture. Apparently this
    allows Baxter flexibility to find the rapture in Matthew 24:31. As noted above, Dr.
    Gundry includes in his definition of the rapture “a catching up” from 1 Thessalonians
    4:13-18. Dr. Gundry wants to “broaden the definition to include a gathering or
    reception” from Matthew 24:31, etc.4 Since the present debate is whether or not
    Matthew 24:31 is a rapture passage, it would beg the question to include Matthew 24:31
    in an a priori definition of the rapture.
    1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the only undisputed passage describing the rapture event.
    Only in this passage is the Greek word harpazô (“caught up”) used, from which the word

    2
    rapture descends. Whatever else the rapture may include in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it
    clearly consists of a translation of living believers and the simultaneous resurrection of
    dead saints.
    COMPARISON OF 1 THESSALONIANS 4:17 AND MATTHEW 24:31
    In an attempt to equate Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as referring to the
    same event, Dr. Gundry notes “parallel terminology in Paul’s Thessalonian discussion of
    the Church’s rapture, where we read of a trumpet, clouds, and a gathering of believers
    just as in the Olivet Discourse.”5 Indeed, there are some similarities between the
    rapture and the second coming. There are also some similarities between Christ’s first
    advent 2,000 years ago and His second advent. But all agree that they are not the
    same events. We know they are not the same because of the differences. In the case
    of comparing Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it is the differences that are
    important. Enough differences exist between the two passages to clearly conclude that
    they must be separate events.
    Dr. Steven McAvoy points out that “the differences between Paul’s Thessalonian
    statements and Matthew 24:30-31 far outweigh any alleged similarities.”6 Dr. McAvoy
    continues:
    Sproule asks,
    Where does Paul mention the darkening of the sun (Matt. 24:29), the
    moon not giving its light (Matt. 24:29), the stars falling from the sky (Matt.
    24:29), the powers of the heavens being shaken (Matt. 24:29), all the
    tribes of the earth mourning (Matt. 24:30), all the world seeing the coming
    of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:30), or God sending forth angels (Matt.
    24:31)?7
    Feinberg also notes the dissimilarities between the two accounts:
    Notice what happens when you examine both passages carefully. In
    Matthew the Son of Man comes on the clouds, while in 1 Thessalonians 4
    the ascending believers are in them. In Matthew the angels gather the
    elect; in 1 Thessalonians the Lord Himself (note the emphasis) gathers the
    believers. Thessalonians only speaks of the voice of the archangel. In
    the Olivet Discourse nothing is said about a resurrection, while in the latter
    text it is the central point. In the two passages the differences in what will
    take place prior to the appearance of Christ is striking. Moreover, the
    order of ascent is absent from Matthew in spite of the fact that it is the
    central part of the epistle.8 9
    In addition to the above differences, the order of events are different between the
    two passages. In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to
    heaven, while in Matthew 24 they are gathered after Christ’s arrival to earth. “In order
    for Gundry to establish his view that Matthew 24:31 refers to the rapture, he must
    reconcile the dissimilarities; not simple point to a few similarities.”10 Thus, the

    3
    differences in the two passages support the pretribulational contention that they are
    speak of two distinct events.
    WHO ARE THE ELECT?
    I believe the elect in Matthew 24 is a reference to the Jewish remnant who will come
    to faith in the Messiahship of Jesus during the tribulation period. Commentators
    generally recognize that “elect” “may refer to Israel, to the Church, or to both.”11 The
    context is the determinative factor in any attempt to discover which nuance the author
    intended. The contextual usage of Matthew supports the elect as a reference to Israel
    because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. “Such terms as the gospel of the
    kingdom (24:14), the holy place (24:15), the Sabbath (24:20), and the Messiah (24:23-
    24) indicate that Israel as a nation is in view,”12 observes Dr. Stanley Toussaint. Dr.
    Renald Showers provides a more focused explanation:
    The elect are the faithful, believing Israelite remnant in contrast with the
    unbelieving sinners within the nation. In Isaiah 65:7-16 God drew a contrast
    between these two groups and their destinies. In verse 9 He called the
    believing remnant “mine Elect,” and in verses 17-25 He indicated that in the
    future Millennium His elect remnant of the nation will be blessed greatly on
    the earth.13
    Since the term “elect” is used three times in Matthew 24 (verses 22, 24, 31; see also
    Mark 13:20, 22, 27), it is most likely that the author uses it to refer to the same entity all
    three times. Dr. McAvoy says, “The rule of context precludes understanding ‘elect’ in
    24:22, 24 as referring to Israel and then nine verses later as referring to the church.
    Without some indication of transition from one intended meaning to another ‘elect’ in
    24:21 must mean the same as it does in 24:22, 24.”14
    THE ANGELIC GATHERING
    To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is
    found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages,
    specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this
    angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a
    regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they
    will live for a thousand years during Christ’s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines,
    the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the
    support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of
    Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:
    The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had
    to say about the second facet of Israel’s final restoration. Its purpose was to
    make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be
    fulfilled only after the second coming.15

    4
    Dr. Renald Showers has done an excellent job collecting evidence and arguing for
    this view.16 After noting that “from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other”
    means that “the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ’s coming,”17 Dr.
    Showers provides three lines of proof for his view as follows:
    First, because of Israel’s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that
    He would scatter the Jews “into all the winds” (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or “toward all
    winds” (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them
    abroad “as four winds of the heavens.” . . . God did scatter the Jews all over
    the world.
    Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from
    the east, west, north, and south, “from the ends of the earth” (Isa. 43:5-7).
    We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His
    “chosen” (vv. 10, 20).
    . . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four
    directions of the world will take place in conjunction with “a great trumpet”
    (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that
    the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in
    conjunction with the blowing of “a great trumpet” (literal translation of the
    Hebrew). . . .
    Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day “a great horn
    shall be blown (Is. 27:13)” and the exiled will be brought back by that signal.
    Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of
    Isaiah 27:13, “There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the
    dispersed to Zion.”
    It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future
    regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a
    “great” trumpet.
    Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to
    Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its
    context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1,
    10) comes to rule and transform the world as an “ensign” (a banner), He will
    gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel “from the four
    corners of the earth.”18
    What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will
    fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a
    prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish
    Daily Prayer Book.19
    CONCLUSION
    It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31
    cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context
    and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He

    speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for
    the Millennium. At Christ’s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His
    desire to gather Israel to Himself “the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
    and you were unwilling” (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon
    Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, “Blessed is He who comes in the
    name of the LORD!” (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39). Maranatha!

    • Steve, you say “I believe the elect in Matthew 24 is a reference to the Jewish remnant who will come to faith in the Messiahship of Jesus during the tribulation period.”

      OK, where is your exegeses for this? Your verses that on their face directly back up your statement?

      What you said contradicts what Yeshua Himself prayed for in John 17:11, 21, 22 & 23 when He prayed that ALL who ever come to faith in Him be ONE! There is NO DICHOTOMY in the Body of Christ.

      Paul says there is neither Greek nor Jew in Messiah. That out of the TWO Father will make one new man.

      Who is a true Jew any way? The physically circumcised or those whose circumcision is that of the heart? Who is the true Israel of Father? What about the covenants Paul talks about in Galatians 4:20-26? Do you understand what’s being said?

      Read the above verses in the Amplified. You can go to BibleGateWay.com.

      You need to approach the Word with an open mind. Proof texting a preconceived outlook is not true Bible study.

      Your writings make a lot of assumptions & esiogesis based statements, but you offer no direct Bible verses.

      SamFox

  • Steve,

    For all of your citing of verses and supposed experts you have forgotten something.

    There are only TWO RESURRECTIONS!

    The First one occurs at the same time as the Gathering of the Saints. The Second one just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment after satan is cast into the Lake of Fire.

    There are NOT THREE Resurections and that is exactly what you are saying. There is only ONE GATHERING of God’s people and that occurs after the end of the Great Tribulation JUST LIKE JESUS SAID IT WOULD!

    If you want to add another gathering and another resurrection you are going to have to provide SCRIPTURAL PROOF for the Second Gathering and the THIRD RESURRECTION!

    Good Luck!

    It does not exist in the Bible.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Poorest and most weak argument i have ever heard!

    First, the resurrection and the rapture are not the same event, which is an errant assumption presupposed in the question. Resurrection is for the dead while the rapture will be for the living (�we who are alive and remain� 1 Thess. 4:17). It is a common ploy by non-pretribulationists to just assume that resurrection and rapture are the same, since that is what they believe. Then they want to conclude, as the questioner noted, that there must be a single resurrection event, which, if true, would militate against pretribulationism.
    Second, it is true that a resurrection takes place in conjunction with the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. However, Paul treats them as separate phases of the overall event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18. Verse 14 speaks of the resurrection of deceased church age believers, followed by verses 15–17 that describe the rapture of living church age believers. Paul says, �Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air� (verse 17). Thus, it is clear that the resurrection and �the catching up� (i.e., rapture) are not the same exact event, even though they occur in close sequence with one another.

    The John Passages
    Verses in John 6 are cited about raising believers up in the last day, as if this somehow refutes the not yet revealed pre-trib rapture. The main point being made by our Lord in the context of this discourse (John 6:22–40) supports the sub-point of verse 37. �All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.� Those given to the Son (Jesus) by the Father are the elect and Jesus, who is One with the Father (6:36), will certainly not cast out those chosen by the Father. In other words, the elect of the Father are secure with the Son.
    The next verse says: �And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day� (6:40). The statement �I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day,� speaks of the fact that all of the elect given Christ by the Father will make to their destined goal, which is the resurrection. In context, the statement about being raised up on the last day refers solely to the resurrection of believers. Certainty of a believer�s resurrection is reinforced by verse 41 which says, whoever �believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.� Likewise, the other two references (6:44, 54) are also statements assuring believers that they will all attain to their destiny of the resurrection in the last day. John Walvoord has noted:

    The broad prophecies which here are being revealed by the Saviour predict, first of all, the salvation of individuals who hear the facts about Christ and as a result of believing will live eternally. Just as Jesus has life in Himself from the Father, so He has authority to judge as the Son of man (v. 26). For further confirmation of Christ’s ability, Jesus called attention to the fact that those in the grave, referring to those who have died physically, will someday hear His voice and come out of the grave with the result that they will be judged concerning their life on earth, whether good or bad (vv. 28-29). In asserting this fact of judgment, Christ Jesus is not teaching that all the resurrections will occur at the same time as other Scriptures make clear that there will be a series of resurrections, and the wicked will not be judged until all the righteous will be raised.[1]

    These passages do not deal with the timing of the resurrection in the last day, instead they provide certainty or assurance that all believers will experience a future time of resurrection. Since Jesus had not yet revealed that there would even be a future assembly that would be known as the church, He would clearly not have yet revealed the event that would bring that church age to a close, the rapture. Therefore, it follows that Jesus made a general statement about the resurrection in these passages about the certainty of a future resurrection for believers, not intending to convey a nuance of the timing in relation to when this event would fit into end-time prophetic events.

    Mark 8:38
    �For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels� (Mark 8:38). This passage is merely a summary statement of a dialogue that began in verse 34 where Jesus said the following: �And He summoned the multitude with His disciples, and said to them, �If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.�� The phrase �when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels,� clearly speaks of the second coming, since it refers to His return to planet earth in glory. This event is clearly described in Mark 13:24–27 (compare Matt. 24:27–31) as Christ �coming in clouds with great power and glory� (Mark 13:26). How does this in any way deny pretribulationism?
    Once again, contrary to some non-pretribulationists, we do not see Mark 8:38 as a reference to the rapture, nor do we even see the rapture mentioned in either Matthew or Mark at all. For this passage to be properly used against pretribulationism, it would have to be shown to be a rapture passage that pre-tribbers use in that way.[2] Such is not the case! Christ returning in glory is clearly related to the second coming to the earth (for example Matt. 25:31; Rev. 19:11–18). The presumed compulsion by a posttribulationist that Mark 8:38 refers to the rapture has no traction with pretribulationists since it has not been proven that such a passage relates to the rapture.

    John 11:24
    �Martha said to Him, �I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day�� (John 11:24). Once again, I am at a loss to find anything that somehow remotely supports a posttribulational argument verses a pretribulational one. Once again, this is a reference to a believer being resurrected and it also refers to a general statement about the certainty of an end-time resurrection. One must assume that the rapture and the resurrection are a single event, which I demonstrated above that they are not from the clear rapture passage (1 Thess. 4:13–18). As in the other passages, one is baffled how this passage could be seen as a reference to the rapture when Christ has not yet unveiled revelation concerning the rapture.

    Multiple Resurrections
    The New Testament teaches multiple resurrections, not just a single event at the end of time. There are multiple resurrections of believers that do not occur at the same time but are sequential as follows:
    1) The resurrection of Jesus Christ as the first fruit of many to be raised (Rom. 6:9; 1 Cor. 15:23; Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:18).
    2) The resurrection of the redeemed at Christ’s coming (Dan. 12:2; Luke 14:14; John 5:29; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 20:4, 6)
    a) Resurrection of the church at the rapture.
    b) Resurrection of Old Testament believers at the second coming (Jews and Gentiles), at least seven years after the resurrection at the rapture.
    c) Resurrection of all martyred tribulation saints at the second coming (Jews and Gentiles).
    d) Resurrection of all millennial believers after the millennium (implied).
    3) The resurrection of the unredeemed from throughout history (Rev. 20:11-14).

    Conclusion
    Since the Bible teaches multiple resurrections, depending on which saved body it relates too, it does not mean that there is only a single or mass resurrection at which time every believer from Adam on down is raised up. Statements that simply mention a time of future resurrection should not be taken as an exhaustive statement concerning this issue. Instead, later statements that speak specifically about a time when a resurrection will occur should be taken as the ones that provide a chronology of these events. One should never use one statement in Scripture to argue against the clear meaning of another passage, as if they are pitted against one another. However, since there are no contradictions in the Bible, all passages should be interpreted in their contexts in such a way that Scripture is harmonized with itself. This is the approach that should be taken in dealing with these passages in relation to pretribulationism. When this approach is followed, it does not result in an anti-pretrib polemic. Maranatha!

    • Steve–????

      You just shot your whole thesis in the hinderparts.

      “First, the resurrection and the rapture are not the same event, which is an errant assumption presupposed in the question. Resurrection is for the dead while the rapture will be for the living (�we who are alive and remain� 1 Thess. 4:17). It is a common ploy by non-pretribulationists to just assume that resurrection and rapture are the same, since that is what they believe. Then they want to conclude, as the questioner noted, that there must be a single resurrection event, which, if true, would militate against pretribulationism.”

      Is not the ‘rapture’ the event where Jesus comes for the dead & the living, like the Bible says happens at His one & only 2nd coming/return/appearance?
      Sounds like our resurrection to me!

      1 Thess. 4, Amplified
      14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death].

      15 For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death].

      16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.

      17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!

      1Thes 4:15-17 KJV
      15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

      1 Cor. 15, Amplified
      51 Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed)

      52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] LAST trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

      Saying there is some kind of separation here is deception. Verse 51 above says we shall ALL be changed in the same [flowing into v 52] moment & twinkling of an eye.

      You are using deception, so I must caution you to be very careful about your twisting the Word. You are on dangerous ground.

      SamFox

  • it is true that a resurrection takes place in conjunction with the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. However, Paul treats them as separate phases of the overall event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18. Verse 14 speaks of the resurrection of deceased church age believers, followed by verses 15–17 that describe the rapture of living church age believers. Paul says, �Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air� (verse 17). Thus, it is clear that the resurrection and �the catching up� (i.e., rapture) are not the same exact event, even though they occur in close sequence with one another.

  • i stand by my first comment this is “now the end begins” is it not? nteb clearly agree’s with a pre-trib because there is strong evidence to support the theory, so as i said i am on here also giving my views and opinion on why i also agree with a pre trib on a website that agrees with pre-trib, did you see that “opinion”?

    Job 32:17 I said, I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.

    do you know what an opinion is??

    A message expressing a belief about something; the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof A belief or sentiment shared by most people; the voice of the people

    now can you please answer my questions as i have yours 1. where or how and when did i say i am teaching this lie 2. why do you assume i would call you deceived (which still makes me laugh that you assumed this paranoia or judging take your pick 3. and this is my favorite question you said in your last message

    “PS: I give up attempting to point you all to the scriptures and the questions that have been asked. You want to be deceived, you do not LOVE the TRUTH, and with that attitude, you are headed to perdition according to II Thes 2:9-12
    Farewell!”

    right, ok so you gave up and said we want to be deceived and we will get our come up “perdition” followed by a farewell?

    why then have you returned? are you one of these people who have to have the last say? well have it mate your welcome to the pride and The final statement in this argument if it helps you sleep at night

  • If the Resurrection and the Rapture are 2 different things then Paul was wrong when he wrote that the dead in Christ will rise first!

    YOu are so very deceived.

  • We don’t need any more opinions. Opinions have given us over 38,000 denominations all claiming to have the truth yet mostly contradicting one another AND the Bible.
    What we need is Word of God from God Himself.
    You have only shown you are another deceived one deceiving others with the deceptions you have deceived yourself with.
    You do not want the truth, you want your opinion.
    Unfortunately, this also shows you are not led by the Holy Spirit for HE is the Spirit of TRUTH and only teaches the TRUTH.
    So what you proclaim, is man’s ideas not divine.
    This is the problem with OPINIONS! And why you you deceived; you rely on yourself and NOT on the Holy Spirit.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Wow! I just love unity among bretheren. I for one refuse to engage in arguing, especially when I rest in my doctrine. Just a small suggestion, but when reading the scriptures it might help if you ask when it was written, who wrote it, and to whom it was written. Most believers that hope for the rapture tend to follow Paul’s teaching which is addressed to the Body of Christ which is comprised primarily of gentiles. On the other hand, those who believe the “church” will suffer the wrath of God in the tribulation get this doctrine from Jesus’ earthly ministry, which was addressed to Jews that were promised an earthly kingdom. According to Scripture, Paul’s doctrines were NOT taught nor forseen by the Jewish prophets, nor did Jesus teach Paul’s doctrine. This He would reaveal to Paul much later, a series of things once hidden but now revealed to Paul.

    If anyone wishes to argue, you will NOT receive a response from me. However, if anyone honestly desires to understand the principle of rightly dividing (which mens to slice or cut) the Word of Truth, I might be able to give you some insight, and thus a reason for a future hope… since we (the Body of Christ) are not appointed to wrath.

    • Dr. AT, you make an assumption about arguing. The kind of ‘arguing’ we are engaged in is the kind where we state our points, + PTR or -.

      It matters not that Paul was ministering to gentiles. True, to an extent, that Jesus didn’t teach Paul’s doctrine. Paul was teaching HIS doctrine.

      There is no dichotomy between Jew & Gentile. Of the TWO Paul Says JESUS will make ONE new man, Jesus’ body. Jesus said that 1st when He prayed in John that all those who EVER come to believe in Him would be made ONE. Jesus was not referring to His coming, but rather to what He intended for Jews & gentiles BEFORE His 2nd advent.

      Who is a true Jew? ANY ONE whose circumcision is of the heart & not the flesh. The TRUE Israel of God is Yeshua HIMSELF & His body is ONE unit comprised of Jew & gentile. The definition of ‘Israel’ is Prince of God. NO ONE besides Jesus can now be called the Prince of God.

      No one that I know of says Christians will suffer the wrath of God during the Trib or any other time. We can be here during that time without feeling Father’s wrath. Whose wrath was it that threw Daniel in the lion’s den? The 2 men in the fiery furnace? Fed the lions & used Christians for street lights in Rome? Persecuted those listed in Heb. 11? Fox’s Book Of Martyrs?

      Remember, Yeshua fulfilled the whole Old Covenant & set it aside, just as He said He had come to do. HE is now the ONLY preeminent One.

      Does your ‘rightly dividing’ exclude esigesis? If you are honest, you will have to admit that the PTR teaching is built entirely on esigesis & the supposition that comes from man’s conclusions. In this case, regarding the PTR, many are looking for a path of least resistance.

      I say that because there is NOT EVEN ONE clear statement in the Book that gives credence to the PTR teaching that 1. Jesus is coming back 2 more times, 2. these 2 events are separated by 7 years but equal only one 2nd advent & 3. that He will leave future Christians behind to suffer during a time frame we are supposed to miss.

      I am not trying to argue, but I am trying to present the truth of Father’s Word based on DIRECT statements in it. I do not need esigesis. Exegeses will do just fine. 🙂

      SamFox

  • Allan,

    You err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.

    The Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God. It is the war of the beast on the saints.

    How very sad you are so deceived

  • Enough Dirk, your lack of respect speak volumes of your condition as a Christian, you come here offending everyone and you call yourself a Christian? Even Christ6 didn’t dare to condem the High Priests. You should be ashame of yourself. You seem one of those who believe the Old Testament is obsolete. You are taking the position of those who support the Reform and Replacement Theology. Do a little study and do yourself a favor. The 7 years of Tribulation is God dealing with the nation of Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as their Messiah, it has nothing to do with the Church because the Church is not here. There are going to be many who come to know the Lord and will die for that reason during that period of time because God will have 144 000 Jewish evangelist proclaiming the Gospel, also the Angel of the Lord will proclaim the Gospel to every corner of the planet so no one can say “I never heard”. THis 7 years come from daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks, 69 weeks were fulfilled and one week remains of Daniel’s Prophecy and all has to do with Israel attitude against God.

    So please stop this nonsense that is making you look like a false prophet and as an enemy of the people of God. Repent and seek God’s face.

  • No Mario,

    I am NOT a false prophet, rather like the TRUE PROPHETS in the whole Bible, those who oppose God NEVER believed what they said was true and they ridiculed and persecuted them no matter what they said.

    As far as Jesus respecting the leadership, I suggest you go read Matt 23 a few times. You really need to hear it for yourself.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • HE IS AT THE DOOR! Keep looking up people. NOTHING has to happen before the RAPTURE! Could be any day now, SO COME LORD JESUS!!

  • Great writing in The Rapture. I loved reading this. If you want, please visit my website.

  • The Rapture is a great post. I enjoyed reading this. If you want, please visit my website.

  • The Rapture is an amazing share. Thank you for this article.

  • The WHOLE GREAT TRIBULATION has to happen before the gathering of the saints to the Lord.

    OR Jesus was WRONG!

    Either Jesus was wrong or you are wrong.

    PERSONALLY, Jesus is a lot more reliable than any of you!
    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Dirk ask the 21 brothers in Christ killed in Nigeria this weekend if they were going through the Tribulation or they were just eating Ice cream in the park.

  • Christ told us that we will suffer TRibulation from the very first moment we started to follow HIM, please Dirk stop making froolish statement, dont get confused about Tribulation and the GREAT TRIBULATION, there is a big difference between both of them, during the GREAT TRIBULATION is when the wrath of God will be poured upon this Earth as a punishment for men rejecting Jesus Christ.

    • Mario, it doesn’t matter. Father is able to keep us. You PTR believers say he’ll keep the people saved because of the so called 144,000 ‘Jewish evangelists’ so why could He not keep us as well?

      Any one that came to Messiah because of the 144,000 teaching would be the Church. They would HAVE to be part of the body of Christ, the same as any one born again by the Holy Spirit.

      So no matter how you cut it, you STILL have a segment of Christ’s body, a part of HIS church, in the GT.

      All the PTR doctrine does is say we on this side of the so called PTR will be taken out. SO! What makes us on this side so special?

      Last I read Father is not a respecter of persons…

      SamFox

  • Mario, I am NOT being foolish. NOR am I twisting the scriptures as YOU are.

    Jesus said the worst Tribulation in the history of the world would come BEFORE He sent His angels to gather His people!

    There you go.

    OH, and you are quite wrong, The Great Tribulation is the war of satan on the saints. THe BIBLE SAYS THIS. So why do you tell God He is a liar?

  • So Dirk I am going to quote scripture to you now

    Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    What Tribulation is Jesus Christ Our Lord talking about here?

    • Mario, don’t forget Yeshua prayed NOT that we be taken out of the world but that Father keep us.

      Like the verse you used says, HE HAS OVER COME THE WORLD! So what is it that we have to fear if we are here during the great trib? So what?

      John 17:15
      I do not ask that You will take them out of the world, but that You will keep and protect them from the evil one.

      This verse is only good if we are doing what we can to endure to the end. If we are building a relationship with Father. If we are taking care of HIS business.

      Who was Jesus talking to when He said
      1.Matthew 10:18
      And you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a witness to bear testimony before them and to the Gentiles (the nations).

      2.Mark 13:9
      But look to yourselves; for they will turn you over to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake as a testimony to them.

      3.Luke 21:12
      But previous to all this, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, turning you over to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be led away before kings and governors for My name’s sake.

      He was talking to ALL of us.

      His arm is not shortened by any one or any time period…

      Height, depth, tribulation…nothing in all creation can come on us if He does not approve.

      Romans 8:38-39

      Amplified Bible (AMP)

      38 For I am persuaded beyond doubt (am sure) that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor things [a]impending and threatening nor things to come, nor powers,
      39 Nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      We don’t need a PTR. We need Jesus.

      SamFox

  • Mario,

    YOu cannot trip me up with scripture. Thta is the normal tribulation that comes to all believers. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT JESUS IS REFERRING TO IN MATT 24~

    You need to repent from your knowledge and seek the Lord while He may be found OR you MAY be foung wanting on that day! (He speaks of this in Matt 7, those who think they are ok but He will tell them to depart beacuse they did not do Jesus Commands. LIKE DENYING YOURSELF!!

    BTW that denying yourself INCLUDES figuring out the Bible using man’s tools instead of being taught by the Holy Spirit.

    You are compromised the Scriptures and CONTRADICTED THEM as well! You are in danger of hellfire.

  • Your answer proves my point, even with quotes directly from the Scripture you still choose to close your eyes, the Bible warns us about the blind leading the blind. I feel sorry for you, so much anger and negativity only proves that you think you are above reprove, the Word of God instructs us to teach and remediate those who are in error. You can choose to believe whatever you want. I know what Jesus taught and teaches us. The Great Tribulation is the missing week of the book of Daniel and it has to do with Israel rebellion against God. Sorry you are not going to drag me into your abyss of despair, negativity and unbelief.

  • Mario,

    YOu have proven nothing other than you are deceived.
    Jesus was speaking about the tribulation that all true believers face; the kind you trouble me with all the time. You are proving that I am a true believer and you, well, are a Pharisee.

    Howver, YOU ignore Matt 24>>>>

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
    Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    There you go, the GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD BY THE ANGELS COMMANDED BY JESUS!>>

    Show me another gathering in the Bible that tells us it is PRIOR to the GREAT TRIBULATION!

    But you won’t, you can’t because it is NOT in the BIble. It is ONLY in your mind!

    How sad you are! This is what Jesus said about the Pharisees and all those who refuse to listen>>>

    Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
    Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Jesus speaks to you!

  • Hello,I like to find out more about this subject. I appreciate you for writing The Rapture.

  • The Rapture has been put into my bookmarks. I can not wait to read more about this topic.

  • Dirk the Lord is one, His name is Jesus the Christ. He will come for His people, no His angels, He in person will come to take His Church with Him. Sorry that is the last I am going to answer to you.

  • Mario,

    It is NOT me that you have to answer to. You must answer to Jesus for calling Him a liar. You do not believe He was speaking the truth in matt 24.

    Jesus describes the whole gathering of His people in Matt 24 and you are saying HE is wrong.

    Poor deluded child. You think you know better than Jesus, just like the Pharisees did. They were wrong as well.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Dirk you are lucky you are hiding behind a desk in some dark corner, otherwise I will punch right on the face for saying that I said the Lord is a liar, you are full of yourself, you are not a Christian, you are creating divisions amongst the brethren and those are works of your father the devil. Otherwise you would have understood what Christ said and taught. You are a deceiver, a mocker and an antiChrist, you need to examine your words and repent of all the evil you have spoken against all the people that have written here trying to help you. Do not repply to me unless you intent to apologize. I am shaking the dust of my sandals before you. because you are not my brother. I am a Christian, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ is my Savior, He was born in a virgin birth, He was crucified for my sins in the croos of the Calvary, and He rose on the third day as He taught and He is right now at the right hand of God inteceding for me and for His brethren. That is the only thruth and one day He is coming back to take me to Heaven to live with Him for all eternity, to Him belong the Power, the Honor and the Glory. He is worthy I am just a follower of my Master for whom I will give up my life is needed. You have bashed and attacked everyone that have posted here that believe ina pre-Great Tribulation Rapture. You have made yourself a theologian, but you are nothing more than a servant of Satan.

  • Mario,

    Time after time I have responded to you and many others who come here, tell me I am preaching lies and all sorts of other things, accusing me before the world on this site.

    Every single time, I point ALL of you back to the scriptures and ask you to provide PROOF and NOT ONE OF YOU has been able to do so yet.

    I most recently pointed you once more to Matt 24 where JESUS HIMSELF describes the gathering of the saints at the end of the age. It occurs AFTER the END of the greatest tribulation ever to be upon th eface of the earth, after the sun & moon are darkened, AFTER the stars fall from the sky and AFTER his sign appears in the sky.

    You are saying He is in error! Show me the passage that describes another gathering, Mario. But you will not. Yo cannot because it does not exist in the Bible.

    Neither can you show any verse that says there wer 2 parts to the first resurrection, or that there are 3 resurrections. You cannot show any of this because it does not exist in the Bible. You teach contrary to the scriptures and are the ones who are leading people astray.

    You have NEVER answered the questions I posted about a year ago. You have never answered any scriptural question. What you and your friends have done is INSTEAD accused and accused me of doing the very same things that YOU are doing.

    That is called hypocrisy. It is what the Pharisees did to Jesus and what you are doing to me.

    AND NOW you have proven it beyond a doubt, by admitting you would strike me with your fist, reacting to me in anger (which proves you are not being led by the Holy Spirit) Yes, many things say the belong to Christ, the demons even believe in Him, BUT THEY DO NOT SUBMIT THEIR LIVES TO HIM and neither do you.

    If you did submit to Him, you would never have spoken to me in this manner. How very sad for you and you are so very deceived.

    I am no theologian. I have been taught by Jesus Christ NOT MAN!
    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • I apologize Dirk, didnt mean to be offensive towards you, you have the right to believe in your way, I will stick to mine. Both are arguing about just position, you belive in mid tribulation I believe in pre-Tribulation, the Lord knows when it will be, the main goal of Christians is to reach the lost soul, all this arguing dont lead to that. Have a nice day.

  • Mario,

    I have never held ANYTHING against you are anyone else on this sight. All I have done is spoken HIS TRUTH which you and most others do not like.

    The things you and many others have repeated accused me of at patently UNTRUE; they are the accusations of the enemy without one bit of evidence. I have consistently stated that in order for there to be a pre trib rapture, that you must provide another gathering in the bible. You have not done so.

    Not only must you provide this, but also post the verses that speak of the first resurrection being divided into more than one resurrection (that is nowhere in the Bible either) post the place in the Bible where there is a third resurrection.

    I THes 4 says NOTHING about when it occurs except in the listing of details of what occurs when that gathering happens. Those details coincide exctly with Jesus explaining when the saints of God will be gathered to Himself in Matt 24; which occurs after then END of the Great Tribulation.

    I could go on. I have posted the 4 questions you must answer for there to even be a consideration that ther COULD be a pre trib rapture many times. NOT ONE PERSON on this site has EVER answered those questions INCLUDING YOU Mario.

    I have not called anyone names. I have repeatedly stated that IF you cannot provide the answers to those questions then you are promoting lies.

    THe Bible is QUITE CLEAR where liars go. Not my judgment but God’s.

    All of your supposed accusations fall flat because I did not do what you said. You have repeatedly shown yourselves to be hypocrites, liars, accusers of the brethren and following another spirit beside the Holy Spirit.

    I have painstakingly pointed all of these things out and then I am the one who is accused of lying. yet I am the one who has proven that unless those questions are answered, a pre trib rapture is impossible.

    The Bible is also quite clear what happens to those who DO NOT LOVE THE TRUTH! That is in II Thes 2: 9-12. GOd sends them a delusion so that they MUST believe a lie and their end is PERDITION!

    If that is what you want, then you are welcome to it. However, you will NEVER be able to claim you were NOT TOLD! You will stand before the Lord alone and you MAY find that He tells you to depart.

    Read that carefully. I did NOT say you were going to hell, I did not say you were NOT going to be saved. I said MAY!

    You and your cohorts have repeatedly told me I am deceived, a liar, a worker of satan, and on and on and on.

    The accusations are coming from YOU. not me. I have only pointed to your accusations as PROOF of your lack of being led by the Holy Spirit.

    You will, of course, ignore all these words once more and think I am deceived.

    BUT THAT is what the false prohets said about Isaiah and Jeremiah as well; Strange, the false prophets treat Isaiah and Jeremiah in the SAME WAY you and your “friends” treat me.

    YOu have my condolences.

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, Dirk

  • Please visit my website for further details, but every generation thinks the rapture will happen…

    It’s sillyness to think your more special than the 2 thousand years that came before you… There is no rapture, it will not happen…

    and when your hopes for the end of the world are dashed, the brilliant minds at my homepage (4chan.org/b/) will drink your delicious tears.

  • No Derg,

    The Rapture will NOT happen. What IS coming quickly is the Great Tribulation and you will be in dire straits when it does begin as will all of these who follow the false teaching of a pre trib rapture.

  • Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36 KJV

    1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV
    For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    • The Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God. It is the war of satan on the SAINTS of God. This is stated IN THE BIBLE!

      And, just as the pre tribbers believe that those saved after the “rapture” occurs will be protected by God, so all the saints will be protected.

      NO ONE HAS ANSWERED THE 4 QUESTIONS YET!

  • On the edge of the dream
    we face our deepest doubts.

    Now that it all is almost real
    a terrible fear of success takes hold
    and we grab desperately, uncontrollably, for failure.

    One last chance to get off easy.

    Who among us really wants to save the world,
    to be born again into two thousand more years
    of struggle?

    How much sweeter to be the doomed generation,
    floating gently on the errors and villainy of others,
    towards some glorious apocalypse now…

    Hallelujah! It’s not my fault —
    Bring on the end times!

    – From poet Paul Williams, Common Sense

  • Common Sense, is NON-SENSE as far as God is concerned.

    Gods ways are NOT man’s ways. God’s ways are FAR HIGHER than man’s ways and absolutely MAKE NO SENSE to the natural mind.

    It would be best to stop relying on yourself (how many mistakes have you made just this year, let alone your whole life?) and start relying on the ONE who NEVER makes a mistake.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Problem. Paul says TH|E LAST TRUMP will sound – and you people have SEVEN MORE TRUMPS after the last trump. That and about 1000 other problems…..like Peter’s sermon declaring that Jesus is NOW sitting on David’s Throne!

  • The Rapture is an excellent article. I am going to take more time exploring this topic.

  • Anyone interested in a solid argument about pre-tribulation go here

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/pretribulation_rapture.htm

  • Why do you continue to refuse to answer the 4 questions Mario?

    I know why.

    Because you can’t and you know it.

  • LOL, I said if anyone is interested, you are not Dirk, why you bother to post in a pre-tribulation topic if you don’t believe in it. Save yourself the aggravation and please go somewhere else. Those two articles refute all your wrong notions and concepts about pre-tribulation.

  • I am not aggravated.

    If so, then answer the 4 questions right here.

    BUT YOU WON’T Because you can’t refute anything. YOu are promoting lies!

  • I have been asking the SAME QUESTIONS for over a year. AND NOT ONE of you pre tribbers can answer those questions. NONE OF YOU can.

    Mario, You have repeatedly accused me, shown yourself to not be following the Lord in your ATTACKS against me, and that IS what they have been. They have been against my person and not once have you dealt with the truth scripturally. NOT ONE OF THE PRE TRIB BELIEVERS have been able to show from the Bible the PROOF of what you claim.

    If I am wrong, then answer my questions. I will be glad to be corrected.

    But you cannot answer those questions because there are no answers in the BIble ANYWHERE!
    And because you cannot answer those questions, that I have asked over and over again, and instead of answering those questions you attack me personally, doing the very same things the Pharisees did to Jesus, PROVES you are in error.
    You are promoting lies.

    If I do have wrong notions, do not send us to some article you have formulated to confuse the issue and make it seem reasonable that a pre trib rapture is feasible. NO.

    Just answer the 4 questions I have asked.

    But I tell you right now, in advance, that NOT ONE of you will answer those questions. You cannot because there is no place in the Bible that contradicts what I have put forward on this site.
    Yet, I have repeatedly shown verse after verse that contradicts what you preach.

    And you call me deceived and a liar.

    How very sad for you all.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh.

    Ecc 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

    This is it. The best way to live is just to fear God, keep His commandments. Because one day God is going to bring every work into judgment, even the secret things whether good or evil.

    Shall we stand.

    I pray that the Lord will give you a closer walk with Him. That you begin to understand life from the divine perspective. That you’ll experience much more than the emptiness of life after the flesh under the sun but will begin to experience the rich fulfillment of life in the Son after the Spirit. And so may God lead you by His Spirit into that full, rich life that He wants you to know and to experience in Jesus Christ. And may you begin to experience that which Jesus said was life more abundantly that He had come to bring to you. So may the hand of the Lord be upon your life this week. And may you walk with Him in love. In Jesus’ name.

  • Gal 1:10 Now am I trying to win the favor of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ (the Messiah).
    Gal 1:11 For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made known by me is not man’s gospel [a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard].
    Gal 1:12 For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through a [direct] revelation [given] by Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

    Poor Mario, you have not a clue. I have NOT been taught by men. I have NOT trusted even myself. I have been taught by Jesus Christ ALONE!
    You have figured it out for yourself. That is the same sin Adam and Eve committed and it got them kicked of out God’s presence.

    It does the same thing today!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    PS: BTW you have once again avoided the issue and attacked me personally instead of dealing with the scriptures; once more proving you are a Pharisee and not a true Christian.

  • David Wilkerson Today

    TUESDAY, MAY 22, 2012

    SO THE WALL WAS FINISHED
    by David Wilkerson
    [May 19, 1931 – April 27, 2011]

    Often Satan will attack you in order to stop a great work for God. He will put enemies in league together just to hinder your labors. They will come against you in unison, trying to discount the minister in order to stop the ministry.

    You can be sure of this: If you are on a divine mission — if you are called to do a work for the Lord and are busy fulfilling that calling, trusting in Jesus — none of their plots will work against you.

    Nehemiah was called by God to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. The work was progressing wonderfully, with the walls going up steadily. Suddenly Satan stirred up a hornets’ nest to hinder it all. Four prominent leaders joined in a plot against Nehemiah: “They thought to do me mischief” (Nehemiah 6:2).

    Four times these leaders set a trap. They called out to Nehemiah, “Come down off your wall. We want to have a conference with you. We insist you talk to us!” But four times Nehemiah answered, “I’m not coming down off these walls! I have work to do here because God has ordained me to do it” (see Nehemiah 6:3).

    Beloved, you cannot get involved in arguing with people just because they want to argue. It’s all meant to be a distraction. You must go on with God’s work.

    The reason Satan comes against your prayer life, your consecration to God, your walk with Him, isn’t just to bring you down. He also wants to ruin the ministry God has given you. He wants to destroy anything you’re doing that brings glory to God!

    These four VIPs started a rash of rumors against Nehemiah. They claimed, “You’re doing this for yourself, not for God!” One of them, Tobiah, sent slanderous letters to other leaders in Israel. All the slander, plotting and snares were designed to put fear into Nehemiah’s heart, in hopes that he would get discouraged and run. Nehemiah sums up the scheme in verse 13: “[He was] hired that I should be afraid . . . that they might have matter for an evil report, that they might reproach me.”

    But none of those snares could stop the work of God! Scripture states: “So the wall was completed. . . . When all our enemies heard about this, all the surrounding nations were afraid and lost their self-confidence, because they realized that this work had been done with the help of our God” (verses 15-16, NIV).

  • Ah, Mario.

    How foolish you are thinking to compare yourself to Nehemiah. YOu are very deceived. Once more you attempt to discredit what I have said by your rhetoric and redirecting the issue to one of your own choosing.

    BUT THE FACTS ARE CLEAR>>>> YOU CANNOT ANSWER THE 4 QUESTIONS I HAVE ASKED YOU BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT AGREE WITH A PRE TRIB RAPTURE!

    So, instead of just answering the questions up front, you must find ways to put me down, discredit me, question my commitment to the Lord, accuse me falsely, etc, etc, etc. And this you and your followers have repeatedly done, ALL WITHOUT EVER DEALING with the scriptural proof I have asked for.

    Once more, you confuse this issue. You have never one time answered one of the questions I have asked. ANd you never will because in order to answer those questions, you would either have to lie outright, or twist the scriptures so badly that everyone would see it.

    I am NOT arguing. YOU ARE> I have simply asked 4 Questions to which I have been accused, comdemned, and compared with heretics and sinners. ALL FALSELY!

    Answer the questions and be done with it or admit your lies.
    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • I feel sorry for you Dirk, so much hate, so much sorrow, the point of the article was not about me comparing myself to Nehemiah, I am not worthy of that, this was the whole point

    “Beloved, you cannot get involved in arguing with people just because they want to argue. It’s all meant to be a distraction. You must go on with God’s work.”

  • Dirk: People who believe the Pre-Trib rapture are truly brain washed and deceived by Satan the father of all lies. Mario will not answer your four questions because he cannot. I asked a question earlier. Why does Paul say Jesus will appear when the LAST trumpet sounds while dish-pansationalists tell us there are 7 more trumpets after the last trumpet. That question is also unanswered. The good news is many people – including pastors – have been leaving the cult of dish-pansationalists. As we know the origin of this deception is a 17 year old girl with a vision which was developed into this crazy system by to failed lawyers – one English and one American. As we know lawyers can make a case out of and for anything and that is what these two did. And you are correct also in observing that when they cannot answer Biblical truth they will attack you personally.

  • Alexander Reese: “About 1830 a new school arose within the fold of Premillennialism that sought to overthrow what, since the Apostolic Age, have been considered by all premillennialist as established results, and to institute in their place a series of doctrines that had never been heard of before. The school I refer to is that of ‘The Brethren’ or ‘Plymouth Brethren,’ founded by J. N. Darby.” (Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ, page 18)
    Robert Cameron: “Now, be it remembered, that prior to that date, no hint of any approach to such belief can be found in any Christian literature from Polycarp down…. Surely, a doctrine that finds no exponent or advocate in the whole history and literature of Christendom, for eighteen hundred years after the founding of the Church – a doctrine that was never taught by a Father or Doctor of the Church in the past – that has no standard Commentator or Professor of the Greek language in any Theological School until the middle of the Nineteenth century, to give it approval, and that is without a friend, even to mention its name amongst the orthodox teachers or the heretical sects of Christendom – such a fatherless and motherless doctrine, when it rises to the front, demanding universal acceptance, ought to undergo careful scrutiny before it is admitted and tabulated as part of ‘the faith once for all delivered unto the saints.” (Robert Cameron, Scriptural Truth About The Lord’s Return, page 72-73).
    A. W. Tozer: “Here is a doctrine that was not known or taught until the beginning of this century and it is already causing splits in churches.”

    Philip Mauro: “The entire system of ‘dispensational teaching’ is modernistic in the strictest sense; for it first came into existence within the memory of persons now living; and was altogether unknown even in their younger days; It is more recent than Darwinism.”“A system of doctrine that contradicts what has been held and taught by every Christian expositor and every minister of Christ from the very beginning of the Christian era—suddenly made its appearance in the later part of the nineteenth century”.”

  • Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion. http://reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm

    • Hey William, welcome! I now have another Brother named William.

      H9ow any one can honestly read the Word & believe Jesus is coming 2 more times woith a 7 year period in between that leaves a future part of the church behind is way beyond me.

      The Bible is very clear on the 2nd coming/return/appearing of Yeshua. He is only comi9ng one more time, at the LAST trump.

      Glad to have ya in the discussion!

      God bless!

      SamFox

  • Dr. Harry Ironside of Moody Bible Institute, himself an ardent supporter of the Lacunza-Darby-Macdonald-Scofield eschatological scheme, admitted in his book Mysteries of God, p. 50 :…Until brought to the fore through the writings of…Mr. J. N, Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield (the Seven-Year Tribulation) is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre-and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines…the literature of the reformation…the Puritans. He will find the ‘mystery’ conspicuous by its absence.”Brian Schwertley

    I think we need to be careful not to speak ill of the brethren who taught and have proliferated the erronious doctrine of the “secret rapture” unwittingly. Yet Christ and the Apostles warned us to “take heed that no one leads you astray “, that a great deception (believing the lie ) will come and “many will fall away “, and that there would be “‘every sort of evil that decieves ” (Matt. 24 , 2Thess 2, 1 Tim4 .) 2 Tim 4:3-4 warns us about doctrines that will have destructive results for the body of a Christ. Perhaps the greatest danger of this doctrine is that it doesn’t prepare God’s people for the greatest time of testing to come, the “great tribulation”

    “The great irony is that many teachers of eschatology may actually be setting up the very conditions and have inadvertently participated in the very deception of the end (that they teach about).”(A Warning to Those who Teach on ” End times ” Issues )
    May God help us to seach out and arrive at the truth concerning this most important matter.
    http://www.upwardcall.net/rapture.html

  • Many Christians are unaware of the warning written in a letter by Corrie ten Boom where Miss ten Boom warns against a pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine. A Dutch Christian and a survivor of the Nazi Holocaust concentration camps. Corrie spearheaded a rescue operation in Holland that helped hundreds of Jews escape the Nazi extermination camps, and travelled all over the world as an ambassador for Christ telling her story. In her worldwide travels Miss ten Boom met with many Christians abroad. Many in the Suffering Church were enduring persecution just as she had. She met with Church leaders of the underground church in China. There she became aware of what had happened to the Chinese church in 1949. At that time Mao Tse Tung was bringing China into communism. The American missionaries had left the country. Chinese Christians entered into a time of intense persecution.

    During that period the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine had been the accepted teaching. But there was a problem. And it turned out to be a serious one. This Biblically unfounded doctrine had not prepared the Chinese Church for witness under trial. Christian believers were interrogated and brutalized under the Red Guard. Many fell away from the faith in those times.

  • Letter from Corrie Ten Boom: “The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.

    Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

    My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

    We may have been the Lord’s only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

    Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!” for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,

    “He that overcometh shall inherit all things
    and I will be His God,
    and he shall be My son.”
    This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

    Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.

    “Yes, the Lord will heal me,”, Betsy said with confidence.

    She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

    It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy’s death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

    There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Mos of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

    In China, the Christians were told, ” Don’t worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated- raptured.” Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortued to death. Later, I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

    “We have failed..
    We should have made the people strong for persecution,
    rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
    Tell the people to be strong in times of persecution,
    how to stand when the tribulation comes,
    to stand and not faint.”

    I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next.

    Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus’ sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, “Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation.” Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

    When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, “Nothing could be any worse than today.” But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

    “If you be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
    for the spirit of the glory and of God resteth upon you;
    on their part evil is spoken of,
    but on your part He is glorified.”

  • Dear William,

    thank you for all the wonderful supporting EVIDENCE that once more proves there is no Pre Trib Rapture.

    Mario.
    Copy and paste the WHOLE THOUGHT where I showed you hate and post it here.

    But you won’t, you can’t because it is not there once more. This is what you always do, attempt to take the pressure off yourself by pointing at me personally. I do not hate you at all. I love you, that is why I put up with all your slander and accusations.

    You on the other hand have shown all of us what evil lurks in your heart several times. Including the time you told me you would PUNCH ME in the face.

    mario. why do you refuse to answer the 4 questions?

    Just go thru each one, giving us the scriptural reference that proves your are correct in each case. If you do that, I will admit I was in error, apologize for bothering you and erase all of the things I have ever written against a pre trib rapture, apologizing to all of those I told a lie to.

    I am more than willing to do all of that.

    ARE YOU IF YOU CANNOT ANSWER THOSE 4 QUESTIONS?
    Once more, I know you will not. You will find another thing to attack and accuse me of. While I continue to patiently LOVE YOU and speak that truth in LOVE!

    You have NOT shown me love on this site, Mario, YOU are the one full of hate, as I have already pointed out to you.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • The 70 weeks of Daniel has to do with God and Israel, after 69 weeks Christ came to His own, according to His own words, He didn’t come to the Gentiles (us), He came to His own (Israel) and His own (Israel ) received Him not. Is that truth? Is that found in the Bible?. We were grafted in the Holy Tree because His own (Israel) rejected Him. God spare 1 week out of the 70th weeks of Daniel to deal with Israel. The 7 years of Tribulation have nothing to do with the Church and everything to do with Israel. It is God dealing with Israel, no Christ, but God the Father dealing with the people that rejected His Son Jesus. It is God dealing with the nation of Israel with whom He, God Father has a covenant. The Church cannot be present here on the Earth during those seven years, it is simple as that. The Holy Spirit will be removed from the Earth, because the Holy Spirit came to this Earth to be the Counselor (according with Jesus) for the Church, Jesus told us He would send the Counselor to be with us, the Counselor will be removed before the Tribulation with the Church, dont know why dont you see this. Again I dont hate you, I pity you because you are the one that have lashed against anyone who try to show you that your position is in error. But like my last quote said, I will not argue with you anymore because the Devil is using this argument to stop my testimony about My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I shake the dust of my sandals before you and this is the last word you will hear from me. Repent and seek Jesus because you are walking a dangerous path when you deny Israel the right to be confronted by God and judge by God so they may repent, you are condemning the nation of Israel to the flames of Hell when you refuse to allow them to receive the judgment of God that will bring repentance and Salvation for the nation of Israel. Be aware of antisemitic wolves dressed in sheep clothes that are invading the Church.

  • MARIO!!!!!

    Stop messing around and trying to confuse the issue.

    ANSWER THE FOUR QUESTIONS!

    If you have wrong assumptions AND YOU DO, you will always come up with wrong answers.

  • He cannot. He is like the Pharisees if Jesus time – blinded!

  • I know William, just as Mario and those like him are bline to this JUDGMENT OF GOD>>>>>

    2Th 2:9 The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity and working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs and delusive marvels–[all of them] lying wonders–
    2Th 2:10 And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false,
    2Th 2:12 In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.

    God Himself sends them a delusion so that they MUST BELIEVE A LIE!

    WHY does God do this? Because they have chosen to deceive themselves with another lie, SUCH AS A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, and refuse to repent of their own deception.

    Just as II Thes 2 describes.

    It would be funny if it were not so tragic.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • can anyone tell me why this is such a damnable doctrine

  • Dear Mac,

    It is not so much the fact that this doctrine is damnable as it is a doctrine of demons. It is a lie and it has lulled most of Christianity to sleep.
    The cast majority who do believe in this doctrine are actually BLIND to verses that contradict it, such as II Thes 2:1-5.

    This passage CLEARLY STATES 2 things.

    1. Paul says the Day of the Lord and the Gathering of the saints are the SAME!

    2. Paul CLEARLY STATES that NO ONE will be gathered PRIOR to the Antichrist being revealed and him declaring himself to be God in the temple of God.

    Yet, even though the Bible says this in plain words, people who cling to this false doctrine of a pre trib rapture cannot see the words or explain them away.

    THUS, the latter portion of this chapter become clear and a reality in their lives. They do not love the TRUTH and God will send them a delusion so that they will believe the LIE and their end is perdition.

    Now that IS what the Bible says. None of their twisting of the scriptures will change it. So instead of allowing God to change them and for them to admit their error (WHICH THEY will NEVER DO {just like the Pharisee could never do in Jesus time}) they attack and accuse people like myself who point out their duplicity and lies, asking them to PROVE themselves by the scriptures

    BUT OF COURSE, they NEVER answer those questions they just back with more accusations and attacks.

    If you wish, take a few hours and go all the way back to the beginning of this thread. I started asking them questions very near the beginning.

    NOT ONE OF THEM HAS ANSWERED THOSE QUESTIONS; EVER!

    Yet they accuse me of great evil. And then when I ask them to copy where I said something wrong, they cannot do that either. yet I have repeatedly shown them their duplicity, their lies, their accusations, their attacks, ALL of them in keeping with nature of the evil one.

    Also, all of their words spoken against me and a couple of others, are absolutely FALSE!

    So, tell me, Mac, WHY do they act this way if what they preach is true and backed up in the Bible like they say it is? All they have to do to shut me up is post the verses that explains their doctrine and proves it true. BUT NOT ONE OF THEM will do so.
    NONE of them can post answers to the questions I have asked, nor the questions Willam and a couple of others have asked. The pre trib promoters refuse to deal with this scriptural aspect of things and insist on calling us names, accusing us of all sorts of sin, evil motives, claiming we are working for the devil, full of anger, etc.

    YET, where is their evidence? Where are the false accusations I have laid against them? I have just asked questions and no one can answer those questions. Then people, like Mario, actually told me he was going to punch me in the face.

    WHO is following satan and who is truly following the Lord? Who has patiently continually answered questions and continued to ask the same questions over and over and all I get in return is ABUSE?

    So, who is being damned by the doctrine, Mac? What does the evidence show? Are you willing to be HONEST or will you attack as Mario has done without provocation, without evidence because what I says contradicts your doctrine, BUT DOES NOT Contradict the Bible?
    That is the answer to your question, Mac. I am sorry to have made it so long.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • The other three major positions will all have fellowship with each other. Only the CULTIST Pre Trib people make this a test of fellowship and refuse to allow you to be a member of oneof their misguided churches unless you agree with them. As one old Deacon said “It is harder to get into this church than to get into heaven” Such is the division – which Satan loves – that this recent doc. of dubious origin creates.

  • I have read the whole deabte and to be honest out of all the people who believe a pre trib, mid-trib, or post-trib you know what for im not Bothered i shall just watch the saints squabble it out! avoid fanciful, fearful guesswork about events related to the Lord’s return and instead be busy about our responsibilities at hand and lead people to the cross!

    2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
    2Th 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
    2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
    2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
    2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
    2Th 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
    2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
    2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

    debates like this have been going on for years Dirk A Schnarr same as Pre-destination vs Free will, once saved always saved?, literal 6 days creation vs non literal, baptism debates, Gift of tongues, prosperity teachings, women teachers it goes on and on there is not one person anymore who agrees with anyone theologically speaking which has caused all of this big denominational split over the years all because of different peoples Hermeneutics and to be quite frank when you find yourself fussing over such debates including things related Eschatology its a sure sign your wandering away from our primary objective here on earth and that is the great commission Mat28:19-20

    Praise The Lord

  • For all of those who try to demonize us who believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture watch and learn

    http://youtu.be/oLkOnCjldzI

  • Mac,

    I am not Debating. I asked questions. No one has answered those questions and instead they have repeatedly accused me of all sorts of evil.

    I do not promote what I think, or what I have studied. I am proclaiming what the Lord has said. I say the SAME THINGS JESUS SAYS, Period.

    Mario, you are still trying to prove your point by argument, which is using the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That attitude will ALWAYS remove you from the Presence of God so that no matter how closely you think you are following the Scriptures, you are actually proclaiming a lie.

    Answer the questions you have been asked, Mario. But you won’t because you can’t.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • I dont know what Gospel you believe in, but the Gospel of the Bible says, that if you believe in Jesus Christ you are saved, it doesnot says anywhere that to be saved you have to believe in Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation, calling me evil because I believe in Pre-Trib disqualifies you right away. Christ is the only way to Heaven, I have give you plenty of evidence to see the wrong of your path, I have never said you are not saved, I have called you many times to stop the attacks against us who believe in Pre-Tribulation, but your constant attacks and lack of respect questions your true heart. The hate that you spew out of your mouth in every single post questions if you are a true follower of Jesus Christ, because those who love the Lord try to seed peace no wrath.

  • Watch the video of Perry Stone, a man anointed by God during these end times. saying that the Tribulation is for the Church and not for Israel disqualifies the book of Daniel, do you know more than Daniel? Do you think you are better than Daniel? Do you think you are better than the Jewish people? Your position is a antisemitic position and woe to you for denying Israel the right to repent and receive the salvation that once they rejected so the gentiles would be able to see the light that had come to Israel. Woe unto you for cursing Israel, repent and seek the true light.

  • Mario – you are actually very guilty of the things you accuse Dirk of. Now why not answer his original four questions?

  • debate:
    1.A discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal

    2.The formal presentation of a stated proposition and the opposition to it

    this started over a year ago, it is certainly more than a simple case over questions and answers this is a debate not only NTEB but worldwide, to say you are promoting what the Lord has said my friend the Calvinists, YES for women teachers and eternal security believers proclaim that exact same statement.

    Dirk i love your zeal and determination but again you are in a never ending discussion i am certainly not promoting a “all unite in peace” concept no not at all rather let people get on with it, The Great Commission is far more important.

  • I am tired of arguing with Dirk and his new partner. The Bible is clear, I am giving you the study conducted by Perry Stone, it lasts only 70 minutes, watch it and if that does not make you change your mind I dont know what can do it, he is using Old and New Testament to show you about the Rapture from a Pre-Tribulation view. The Book of Daniel speaks of the 70 weeks, 69 passed at the time of Christ coming, Jews rejected Christ and the Age Church started, at the end of the Church age the Rapture will take place and then the 70 week of Daniel will begin. This week is mainly focused on the Jews (doesnot mean that there will not be any believers at that time, because the 144000 will go and preach the Gospel through all the Earth, also in Revelation is mentioned that the Angel of the LORD will preach the Gospel to all the Earth, why he needs to do that if the Church is here? C’mon stop closing your eyes and seek fervently.

  • Mario,

    IF the Bible is so clear, then you have the answers to the questions I have asked. Why don’t you answer them?

    because you cannot, the Bible does not agree with you.

    mario, I never said you were not saved. yet, the Bible is also clear, and JESUS IS THE ONE WHO SAID IT>>>> ONLY THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER WILL BE SAVED!

    I am doing exactly what He wants me to do.

    BTW MAC, that is the answer to you accusation as well. I continually point everyone to Jesus Christ as the ANSWER. HE is the WAY, the TRUTH (REALITY) and the LIFE! Only by absolutely submitting to Him in all things, INCLUDING what He says about the end times will we ever begin DOING the Will of the Father.

    Mario, why should I waste my time listening to someone who eats from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil when I feed off of the TREE of LIFE and receive HIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH?

    I have repeatedly warned you Mario that if you continue to believe this lie you might end up in perdition. I have warned you that you follow after the FLESH and not the Holy Spirit and you have proven this once again by your lousy attitude against me.

    Time after time, you have accused me FALSELY and only ONCE have you apologized. I have asked you repeatedly to copy and paste where I said the things you accuse me of. you can’t do it. I never did it.

    On and on you attack and accuse the brethren trying to find some way to discredit me so that you do not have to listen to the TRUTH! You want to be deceived.

    mac, this is NOT a debate. I am NOT presenting an alternative viewpoint. I am present what God says. I walk in my office and do it quite well. And those who do not follow after the Holy Spirit act like they have always act, such as when they killed and persecuted the prophets. Mario and his ilk show they are of the same heart and mind as the Pharisees.

    And Mac, do you preach DISCIPLESHIP or salvation?

    DO you preach righteousness and HOLINESS or acceptance?

    The Kingdom of God is Righteousness, Holiness, and Peace in the Holy Spirit. It is not what Mario portrays.

    MARIO, I have asked after God. NOT MEN!

    He answered my prayer. He taught me HIMSELF! Even when I asked for a man to disciple me, HE REFUSED and would ONLY ALLOW HIMSELF to Teach me. You listen to men.

    What do the scriptures say about those who put their trust in men?

    THEY ARE FOOLS!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Mario,

    BTW, you are attacking me once more and claiming I am doing something I have NEVER DONE!
    I have NOT attacked, denounced, cursed or said anything ELSE against Israel.

    You are once more using your own twisted reasoning because you cannot answer my questions. Just because you cannot understand how something can be, does NOT make it false.

    REMEMBER, Paul told us that now there is neither male nor femal, slave nor free, Jew nor GREEK, there is only ONE NEW MAN!
    That IS what the NEW TESTAMENT SAYS.

    Do I know more than Daniel? No, I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth.

    What I spoke, I told you, GOD TOLD ME! So far, you have not given ONE BIT OF DATA or INFORMATION that refutes anything I have said. You have twisted the scriptures and made many assumptions, accused me falsely, shown the hate in your heart toward me, but you have NOT offered one bit of scriptural proof that what you are saying is true.

    One the other hand, I have provided verse after verse after verse that shows your assumptions are a product of your own imagination. (or they come from a demonic source)

    That does NOT mean you are unsaved. I have not accused you falsely. No, I have allowed you to use all the rope you wanted to hang yourself. You have done this many times.

    And then you have the audacity to say that I am exhibiting hatred? As I said many times, copy and paste the places where I have “hated” you. You have not done this BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DO IT! I have NEVER said anything that even appears to be hatred. Yet YOU, Mario have repeatedly attacked and accuse me and you do so at YOUR OWN PERIL!

    The scriptures say MUCH about those who accuse falsely. I suggest you ask GOD what HE thinks.

    I have attempted to stop receiving follow-up comments to no avail. I have decided several times to jsut leave you to your own fires that you are stoking up for yourself.

    Then you say some stupid idiotic thing and accuse me falsely once more. I guess you figure if you say it often enough someone will believe you besides yourself.

    I am setting the record straight right now. IF ANYONE sees anyplace where I said something wrongful without having evidence to back me up, copy and paste it in this thread.

    Once more, no one will do this because I have NEVER falsely accused anyone, nor have I stated that anyone was unsaved or any of the other numerous things you have accused me of.

    I have NEVER SAID A WORD about Israel. That is ANOTHING attempt by you Mario, to redirect the focus of things so that others will agree with you and what you say appears to discredit me.

    But, I have not said anything against Israel. I have just stated what is in the Bible and what the Lord has taught me Himself and all that HE has taught me agrees 100% with all the scriptures.
    If you are really tired of arguing, why don’t you just answer the 4 questions.
    Prove me wrong or admit your error.

    But you will do neither. You will either be silent or you will attack and accuse me once more. I even tell you what you will do and you will STILL do it!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

  • But you have NOT been reviled, Mario. YOU are the one who is accusing, YOU are the one who has attacked.

    The promise is to those who WALK IN LOVE. But you do not walk in Love, Mario. You have shown hatred, attcked me verbally, and you admitted you would have attacked me physically.

    Once again, you are attempting to divert attention away from what you have done to try to discredit me.

    But all you have done is dug yourself a far deeper hole and you continue to make it worse for yourself.

    You have not dealt with HIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH!. All you are doing is exactly what the Pharisees did to Jesus and the Apostles. So, you show that your heart does not belong to God exclusively, but is full of the same things the Pharisees had wrong with them.

    Poor, poor soul.

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus

  • Mario: Questions 1. Is Jesus now sitting on David’s throne where he will reign forever? 2. Has David’s house been rebuilt. 3. Is a physical Jew not Abraham’s descendent while a believing Gentile is? 4. Is a Gentile Christian a TRUE JEW? Come on my brother,. 4 relevant valid questions to test your system and understanding. 5. are you now sitting in heaven and reigning with Christ? 6. Are you already a partaker of the first ressurection? 7. What is the fist death and the second death. MArio – 7 – holy number – of questions. Please answer!
    http://www.williamoosterman.com

  • William,

    If he won’t answer my questions what makes you think he will answer yours?

    How can he twist everything so that he is the victim? I don’t understand that at all. He is the accuser, constantly.

    If there was EVER PROOF that II Thes 2: 9-12 is true, all we have to do is HONESTLY read our comments and his accusations against mostly me. He is blind to the truth. If he continues in his blindness then GOD MAY send a Delusion to him so that he will have to believe a lie. If that does happen, we are told the end is perdition.

    Why would anyone take that chance?

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus

  • Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

    Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

  • BUT MARIO,

    We are NOT the hypocrites.

    YOU ARE!

  • Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

    Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

  • Hey Mario – we all know you can quote Scripture as well as any Pharisee in Jesus day. And like them you cannot answer the rightious quesiotns we have asked. Very revealing!

    Mario: Questions 1. Is Jesus now sitting on David’s throne where he will reign forever? 2. Has David’s house been rebuilt. 3. Is a physical Jew not Abraham’s descendent while a believing Gentile is? 4. Is a Gentile Christian a TRUE JEW? Come on my brother,. 4 relevant valid questions to test your system and understanding. 5. are you now sitting in heaven and reigning with Christ? 6. Are you already a partaker of the first ressurection? 7. What is the fist death and the second death. MArio – 7 – holy number – of questions. Please answer!
    http://www.williamoosterman.com

  • Mar 12:14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

    Mar 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see [it].

    Mar 12:16 And they brought [it]. And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar’s.

    Mar 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

  • Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    To those like you two who are legalistic the only answer you need is the very own Word of God.

  • Mat 23:1 THEN JESUS said to the multitudes and to His disciples,
    Mat 23:2 The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat [of authority].
    Mat 23:3 So observe and practice all they tell you; but do not do what they do, for they preach, but do not practice.
    Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy loads, hard to bear, and place them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves will not lift a finger to help bear them.
    Mat 23:5 They do all their works to be seen of men; for they make wide their phylacteries (small cases enclosing certain Scripture passages, worn during prayer on the left arm and forehead) and make long their fringes [worn by all male Israelites, according to the command]. [Exod. 13:9; Num. 15:38; Deut. 6:8.]
    Mat 23:6 And they take pleasure in and [thus] love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues,
    Mat 23:7 And to be greeted with honor in the marketplaces and to have people call them rabbi.
    Mat 23:8 But you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers.
    Mat 23:9 And do not call anyone [in the church] on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in heaven.
    Mat 23:10 And you must not be called masters (leaders), for you have one Master (Leader), the Christ.
    Mat 23:11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
    Mat 23:12 Whoever exalts himself [with haughtiness and empty pride] shall be humbled (brought low), and whoever humbles himself [whoever has a modest opinion of himself and behaves accordingly] shall be raised to honor.
    Mat 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces; for you neither enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are about to go in to do so.
    Mat 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you swallow up widows’ houses and for a pretense to cover it up make long prayers; therefore you will receive the greater condemnation and the heavier sentence.
    Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you travel over sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes one [a proselyte], you make him doubly as much a child of hell (Gehenna) as you are.
    Mat 23:16 Woe to you, blind guides, who say, If anyone swears by the sanctuary of the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the sanctuary, he is a debtor [bound by his oath].
    Mat 23:17 You blind fools! For which is greater: the gold, or the sanctuary of the temple that has made the gold sacred? [Exod. 30:29.]
    Mat 23:18 You say too, Whoever swears by the altar is not duty bound; but whoever swears by the offering on the altar, his oath is binding.
    Mat 23:19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar which makes the gift sacred?
    Mat 23:20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
    Mat 23:21 And he who swears by the sanctuary of the temple swears by it and by Him Who dwells in it. [I Kings 8:13; Ps. 26:8.]
    Mat 23:22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by Him Who sits upon it.
    Mat 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you give a tenth of your mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected and omitted the weightier (more important) matters of the Law–right and justice and mercy and fidelity. These you ought [particularly] to have done, without neglecting the others.
    Mat 23:24 You blind guides, filtering out a gnat and gulping down a camel! [Lev. 27:30; Mic. 6:8.]
    Mat 23:25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but within they are full of extortion (prey, spoil, plunder) and grasping self-indulgence.
    Mat 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also.
    Mat 23:27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything impure.
    Mat 23:28 Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity. [Ps. 5:9.]
    Mat 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous,
    Mat 23:30 Saying, If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have aided them in shedding the blood of the prophets.
    Mat 23:31 Thus you are testifying against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
    Mat 23:32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins to the brim [so that nothing may be wanting to a full measure].
    Mat 23:33 You serpents! You spawn of vipers! How can you escape the penalty to be suffered in hell (Gehenna)?
    Mat 23:34 Because of this, take notice: I am sending you prophets and wise men (interpreters and teachers) and scribes (men learned in the Mosaic Law and the Prophets); some of them you will kill, even crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue and persecute from town to town,
    Mat 23:35 So that upon your heads may come all the blood of the righteous (those who correspond to the divine standard of right) shed on earth, from the blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar [of burnt offering]. [Gen. 4:8; II Chron. 24:21.]
    Mat 23:36 Truly I declare to you, all these [evil, calamitous times] will come upon this generation. [II Chron. 36:15, 16.]
    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, murdering the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and you refused!
    Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate (abandoned and left destitute of God’s help). [I Kings 9:7; Jer. 22:5.]
    Mat 23:39 For I declare to you, you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed (magnified in worship, adored, and exalted) is He Who comes in the name of the Lord! [Ps. 118:26.]

  • Joh 8:38 I tell the things which I have seen and learned at My Father’s side, and your actions also reflect what you have heard and learned from your father.
    Joh 8:39 They retorted, Abraham is our father. Jesus said, If you were [truly] Abraham’s children, then you would do the works of Abraham [follow his example, do as Abraham did].
    Joh 8:40 But now [instead] you are wanting and seeking to kill Me, a Man Who has told you the truth which I have heard from God. This is not the way Abraham acted.
    Joh 8:41 You are doing the works of your [own] father. They said to Him, We are not illegitimate children and born out of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me and respect Me and welcome Me gladly, for I proceeded (came forth) from God [out of His very presence]. I did not even come on My own authority or of My own accord (as self-appointed); but He sent Me.
    Joh 8:43 Why do you misunderstand what I say? It is because you are unable to hear what I am saying. [You cannot bear to listen to My message; your ears are shut to My teaching.]
    Joh 8:44 You are of your father, the devil, and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a falsehood, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar [himself] and the father of lies and of all that is false.
    Joh 8:45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me [do not trust Me, do not rely on Me, or adhere to Me].
    Joh 8:46 Who of you convicts Me of wrongdoing or finds Me guilty of sin? Then if I speak truth, why do you not believe Me [trust Me, rely on, and adhere to Me]?
    Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God listens to God. [Those who belong to God hear the words of God.] This is the reason that you do not listen [to those words, to Me]: because you do not belong to God and are not of God or in harmony with Him.
    Joh 8:48 The Jews answered Him, Are we not right when we say You are a Samaritan and that You have a demon [that You are under the power of an evil spirit]?
    Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I am not possessed by a demon. On the contrary, I honor and reverence My Father and you dishonor (despise, vilify, and scorn) Me.

  • THE WORD OF GOD is JESUS CHRIST, and you do not listen to Him, but to your own self!

    You do not hear His Word at all!

  • Hey Mario – we all know you can quote Scripture as well as any Pharisee in Jesus day. And like them you cannot answer the rightious quesiotns we have asked. Very revealing!

    Mario: Questions 1. Is Jesus now sitting on David’s throne where he will reign forever? 2. Has David’s house been rebuilt. 3. Is a physical Jew not Abraham’s descendent while a believing Gentile is? 4. Is a Gentile Christian a TRUE JEW? Come on my brother,. 4 relevant valid questions to test your system and understanding. 5. are you now sitting in heaven and reigning with Christ? 6. Are you already a partaker of the first ressurection? 7. What is the fist death and the second death. MArio – 7 – holy number – of questions. Please answer!
    http://www.williamoosterman.com

  • Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

  • First death= physical death
    Second death= Final Judgement, God cast those who rejected Christ and didnt accept His offer of Salvation, into the lake of Fire. Eternal separation from God.

  • 1, answer is no, He will when He returns at His second coming after the 7 years of Tribulation and establishes the Millennial Kingdom.

  • 2 David house is already rebuilt , it is Israel.
    3 Being a Jew doesnot save, only accepting Christ saves. Jew is a nationality like been a Cuban, because I am a Cuban and become a Christian doesnot stop me from keep been a Cuban.
    4 A gentile Christian is a Christian not a Jew (weird question)
    5 Christ reigns from heaven, when I died or when I am raptured I will be with Christ and will reign with Him during the Millenial Kingdom

    How can I be a partaker of the first resurrection when I have not died yet? (weird question)

  • Seems like you have a lot of questions here some answers here

    http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

  • Mario – Peter disagrees with you! he declared the prophesy fulfilled. Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, I repeat: Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah So said Peter. God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, (Now Mario – becasue you do not go the the Bble for truth but you impose your ideas upon Scripture you end up contradicting Peter himself.

  • Rev. 20 This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (MArio -If you have partaken of the First ressurection then it is certain we are in the milleniam era now. I am reigning with Jesus Christ, I am seated in the heavenlies as Paul said – are you?)

  • 2 David house is already rebuilt , it is Israel.
    No- according to the Apostles it is the church.

    11 “In that day

    “I will restore David’s fallen shelter —
    I will repair its broken walls
    and restore its ruins —
    and will rebuild it as it used to be,

    12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

    16 “‘After this I will return
    and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
    Its ruins I will rebuild,
    and I will restore it,
    17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
    even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
    says the Lord, who does these things’[b] —
    18 things known from long ago.[c]
    So again Peter disagrees with and contradicts you! Becuase you do not handle the OT they way he does – spiritually!
    Peter declares Amos house of David being rebuilt fufilled in the church!

  • Being a Jew doesnot save, only accepting Christ saves. Jew is a nationality like been a Cuban, because I am a Cuban and become a Christian doesnot stop me from keep been a Cuban.
    MArio – Jesus declared physical Jews of their father the devil. And through Paul Jesus tells us who is a true jew: a circumsised Gentile is a true Jew. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    You see Mario – I am a child of Abraham and a TRUE JEW, at least according to the Bible.

    • Hi ya William. The Amplified brings out what you are saying very well. Paul tells us also who the true Israel of God is. But the Amplified is the only one that I know of that brings that out.

      Thanks for your input. Right on!

      SamFox

  • Christ reigns from heaven, when I died or when I am raptured I will be with Christ and will reign with Him during the Millenial Kingdom

    Mario – Ephesians teaches that we are reiging NOW and seated in the heavenlies NOW. Satan robs people of this truth by his deception of the dispensationalism.

  • Mario>>>>>

    Act 7:51 You stubborn and stiff-necked people, still heathen and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are always actively resisting the Holy Spirit. As your forefathers [were], so you [are and so you do]! [Exod. 33:3, 5; Num. 27:14; Isa. 63:10; Jer. 6:10; 9:26.]
    Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your forefathers not persecute? And they slew those who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, Whom you now have betrayed and murdered–
    Act 7:53 You who received the Law as it was ordained and set in order and delivered by angels, and [yet] you did not obey it!

  • How can I be a partaker of the first resurrection when I have not died yet? (weird question)

    (Mario – you see it as a wierd question as you have been so blinded by a man made system of eschatlolgy.

    And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
    Mario – all born again Christians are partakers of the first ress. and the second death (hell) has not power over us but the first death (natural) does. I am rieging in Christ now, You have been robbed of this great truth by your system.

  • There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
    And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
    2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him,
    The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
    The Spirit of counsel and might,
    The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

    3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord,
    And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
    Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
    4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
    And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
    He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
    And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
    5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
    And faithfulness the belt of His waist.

    6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
    The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
    The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
    And a little child shall lead them.
    7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
    Their young ones shall lie down together;
    And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
    And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
    For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
    As the waters cover the sea.

    10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
    Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
    For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
    And His resting place shall be glorious.”

    Mario – now I am going to prove that your whole system of understanding the Bible and the OT is a fleshly approach just like the disciples BEFORE Pentacost. They also wanted a physical Kingdom and thrones. Then the Holy Spirit guided them into all truth.

    So MArio – the above Is. 11 – has that been fuflilled or is it to come in the millenial?

  • Setting traps for others to fall in, was what the Saducees, Pharisees and Scribes tried to do to Christ, save your breath. I am not going to be your toy boy. I am a Christian, I know who is my Savior and that is all that matters.

  • Mario – I shake the dust off my feet. You have been given an awesome opportunity to learn the truth and you have spit on it. Very sad. But you should ask yourself a question: what is it in my systemn of theology that makes it impossible for me to answer the fair and reasonable questions these Christians are asking me???? And why am I so often in opposition to what the Apostles say about how the OT prophecies are fulfilled?

  • So MArio – the above Is. 11 – has that been fuflilled or is it to come in the millenial? Not a trap – unless as you are, you are into heretical doctrines of demons. You see this passage as future BECAUSE you have been brainwashed into the cult. If you were truly open and a Berean in searching the Scriptures you would know PAUL has declared Is. 11:1-11 FULFILLED and you would know where to find where he says that. Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us,[b] to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written:Isaiah says:

    “There shall be a root of Jesse;
    And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles,
    In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”[f]
    YOu see – Paul (God) was saying that liions and lambs not eat together. Paul had for 2 chapters argued that Christians from all diff. countries and cultures, AGE OLD ENEMIES – were now to sit down together without devouring eachother. So he gives them Is. 11:1-11 as proof this is what God had planned. And you missed this BECAUSE you are blinded and arrogant.

  • mario,

    Now you claim you are a Christian and that is all that matters.

    According to whom? According to you or according to the scriptures? We MUST REMEMBER that ALL the scriptures. that means we cannot rely on ONE verse to prove our salvation we must look to the WHOLE revelation of Scripture.

    You ahve already proven, by your words and actions that YOU do not follow the Holy Spirit.

    Rom_8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

    Should I provide more proof or is this one verse sufficient? How about this>>>

    Gal 5:19 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
    Gal 5:21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    You are guilty of several of these, Mario just in the attacks you have made against me. What does THIS say about your claim to be a “christian”?

    But once more, you will not answer. You will accuse and attack me to attempt to discredit me and divert the attention away from your own lack.

    You have grieved the Holy Spirit, mario. be careful, or you WILL Blaspheme Him as well.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus

  • Lol, nothing more sad that seeing you writing Dirk. You started all the attacks way back, I am just the last victim of your attacks, you have attacked everyone who has posted here and doesnot agree with you, check from the very beginning and see and admit if you are honest enough that the only thing you have brought to this site is discord and antagonism. You dont know me or what kind of experience I have had with Jesus and you assume with all your knowledge that you are better than me. Check the posts, my first post was to ask you to stop the attacks against other brothers who disagree with you, what did you do? Go back and check and you will see, and if you are a Christian like you said you are, you will have to admit that you are the one who has been attacking everyone, but heck if that makes you happy, keep attacking me, the LORD knows who is truthful to Him and who is not. You are condemning to Hell all those who dont agree with you because we are heathens who believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the LORD said we were not intended for the wrath of God, but those who reject Jesus are the ones. You can say whatever you want, you can fill your ego, did you notice who has remained posting here, just you and your sidekick, I have done my best to get along with you but seems impossible. So this is my last post, maybe you and your sidekick will have plenty to talk now. I hope you find peace, because seems that there is a lot of hate in your posts. I apologize if I offended you in any way, I am not perfect, I am just a human being that loves Jesus more than life itself, Am I faulty? Of course I am, came to know the LORD late in my life, didnt have the privilege to hear about him until I was 30 years old, Am I a Theologian? No way, I lack a lot, but one thing I know, that is that Jesus loves me and He loves me so much that He gave His life for me and that relationship between Him and I no one can steal from or take away from me, you see I am His and He is mine and I am in the Father’s hand and no one can remove me from those lovely hands.

  • No Mario.

    I never attacked anyone. I asked questions and pointed at discrepancies and explained that IF you were could not support what you were saying and IF you could not answer the questions then you were LYING!

    You and all the others chose NOT to answer. You dug your own graves and you are still doing so.

    No, Mario, I did not bring discord or antagonism. I asked questions to which I received attack after attack, and accusation after accusation.

    But God knows. and NOTHING you say will change that. I attacked no one. I accused no one. I spoke what God said to speak and responded to the many attacks by pointing to those accusations and you are just the latest accuser of the brethren.

    And you have shown many times how little you follow Christ. You have no fruit to speak of except the fruit of the flesh!

    You would not know what His Truth is if it hit you in the face; because it has several time and all you could was once more, accuse me; never understanding that it was God speaking to you.

    Now you have pushed until you are on the edge of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. How very sad for you.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    BTW, you removed yourself from His hand because you did not keep His Word, Jesus Christ, in your heart.

  • So that is the way a true Christian speak about others? How do you expect to correct someone that is lost? Where is the love of Christ in your posts? Are you sure that if Jesus was standing right now here, as He is, are you sure He would approve of what you are saying? Are you saying you are better than Jesus? In the moment you passed sentence of me arent you making yourself a Judge? Are you sure you want to keep down that path? I would be very careful when saying who is speaking blasphemy, because that finger you are pointing at me may very well be pointing at you. Christians try to seed peace no hate or discord. Re-read your posts again, you are speaking without thinking. That is very dangerous. I had enough of your constant rants. I love my LORD Jesus Christ and will not allow any more of your poison to spoil my life, repent and seek Christ, ask Christ to help you with your anger and hate that is clouding your judgment, I am not saying you are a bad person, I am saying you are letting hate and anger to take control of your life, a true Christian seeks peace and love and respect, also a true Christian tries to make peace with his brother and to overcome any difference that can arise between them, are you doing that?

  • I have not made myself a judge. Jesus is the One who judges you, You just refuse to beleive that He speaks to me about you.

    I am not ranting. You are attempting to use common sense to spiritual matters and IT WILL NEVER WORK.

    I am not the one full of hate and anger Mario. REMEMBER??? It is YOU who would have hit me in the face. It is YOU who has hate inside. Not me.

    I am tried to make peace with you. I asked you how many times to aanswer my questions and if you could, I would ask forgiveness and apologize for my error publically.

    you have NEVER done that. NEVER!

    Not even made an attempt. Instead you rant and rave against me personally, showing what is in your heart to any who can see. And others have told you this but you still refuse to hear it.

    WHERE have I hated you, Mario? SHOW ME. But you won’t. I have asked yo uthat several times and STILL you cannot provide any evidence where I did any wrong doing. NOT ONCE!
    I pointed to most of yours as you commited them and the evidence is right there.

    But where did I hate you? SHow me one place where I was angry? You can’t
    I have not been angry at all. So once more time, you attempt to distract others from seeing your own lack by attempting to lay blame on me where there is NOTHING to blame.

    I speak, what the LORD says. I suggest you read the Sermon on the Mount a few times and see how Jesus spoke. I speak the same way.

    Once more, I tell you to STOP putting words in my mouth. I never claimed to be even as Good as Jesus. Where do you get that idea from?

    Oh, yeah, the same place you get the other accusations. From the accuser of the brethren.

    You are seeing yourself in a mirror, mario. That is what God does to those who refuse to repent, when He speaks through His mouthpieces.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Mario, if you love Jesus then you will not be AFRAID to examine your man made system in the light of Scripture, learning to rightly divide the Word of Truth, comparing Scripture with Scripture. There is no excuse for you at all. If you remain in darkness regarding OT prophecy and how the Apostles declared it fulfilled, that is your own fault and you will haver to answer to God for it. The material is there for you to study. Do so with a truly BEREAN spirit and you will make greeat progress. The Bereans! Remember? Paul would come to a city and teach these Pharisees, theses Jews, some new doctrines. In fact the same doctrines we have been trying to teach you. That Jesus is now KING on David’s Throne welcoming Gentiles into the house of DAvid and Abraham’s family as his true children. In most cases they reacted EXACTLY as you have done! The went to the OT their Bible to PROVE these NEW teachings false. Like you! Now the Bereans said “What = this is all new. It is the oppostite of what wee have been taught and believed. But lets go back to the Bible to PROVE THIS NEW TEACHER RIGHT instead of rejecting him and his teachings It says in Acts “The Bereans were more FAIR minded than the Thessolonians, because the searched the Scriptures (a safe thing to do) to see if these (new teachings) WERE SO!!!!!!!!!!” They wer not in the danger o you are, of rejecting God;s truth due to your blindness and your not being willing to at least say “Hmmm…..maybe there other other views about Jesus coming back, historic views held by 99% of the church for 1800 years, that could just be true after all! No, you are not willing to be a Berean so like many in Paul’s day your reject the glorious fulfillment of the OT prophecies in the church!

  • Again you are speaking without thinking, if you read my post prior, I apologized to you if I offended you, a true Christian would have accepted my apology and moved on trying to patch whatever misunderstanding existed between us, but what was your response? Re-read what you wrote, seems that the word forgiveness has no room in your heart. How can you be a Christian and dont have forgiveness towards others? Did you forget that our Lord Jesus Christ forgave us more that we can forgive others? Sadly you again are not thinking clearly, your judgement is clouded and you need to re-read what you write. Dont let anger and hate cloud your mind and your heart. Again I say I apologize if I offended you, I am not a perfect man, I wish I was, but I am not, I am a man battling against the evil in this world to reach my goal that is one day I can walk with Jesus in His Kingdom. I dont know what else to say, you are not reading what I am saying to you, you are just blasting, bashing and offending without thinking of the consequences of your words.

  • I must also ask this>>>

    WHY IS IT, that only the pre-trib promoters see this hatred, and and dissension I am causing while those who do not believe in a pre trib rapture, don’t see it at all?

    Says a lot to me. and to the Lord. HE sees the TRUTH, no matter how badly you twist it.
    You may, as the Pharisees also did, say and do things that look good to the people, but the REALITY is, you as they, are full o fdead men’s bones and all sorts of corruption.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • So sad, so sad. It is a waste of time try to reason with you Dirk, I wish you well, you can do as you please, let the LORD be the judge between us. I apologized, I did my best to get along, but seems there is no room for forgiveness in your heart.

  • Act 7:51 You stubborn and stiff-necked people, still heathen and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are always actively resisting the Holy Spirit. As your forefathers [were], so you [are and so you do]! (MArio – you posted this verse. Do you realise that the truths Peter and Paul preached, that these people hated, are the very same truths we preach? That Jesus as King is now on David’s throne, that the wall between Jew and Gentile has been torn down and Gentiles are full partakers as Abraham’s seed, children, as true Jews.?? They hated that and so do you! Go figure! )

  • Mario,

    You apologize in one sentence and then accuse again. That is no apology. There is no remorse. BUT, if you would read what I wrote, and actually believe me, You would KNOW I have never held ANYTHING against you.

    I have taken time upon time to answer your questions, when you were decent enough to actually ask them instead of accuse. I have put up with your twisting my words, twisting the scriptures to suit your own ideas and ignoring the questions I have asked you many times over and what do I get in return?

    I get accusation, snide remarks, attempts to discredit me in the eyes of men, and out and out attacks against my person, WHEN ALL I DID WAS ASK YOU TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS, which you never did.

    Oh no, Mario, you did not apologize. You are acting just like the Pharisees as you have been told, many times.
    I do write after I have thought, but actually I prayed more and spoke what GOD told me to speak.

    But you don’t understand that at all. I do NOT speak my opinion. I speak what God says. PERIOD!

    But even though I tell you these things, you do not believe me. WHY? John 8 above tells us all.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • So that others do not have to go back and search for what I refer to in John 8, Here is the Quote directed at YOU MARIO>>>>

    Joh 8:38 I tell the things which I have seen and learned at My Father’s side, and your actions also reflect what you have heard and learned from your father.
    Joh 8:39 They retorted, Abraham is our father. Jesus said, If you were [truly] Abraham’s children, then you would do the works of Abraham [follow his example, do as Abraham did].
    Joh 8:40 But now [instead] you are wanting and seeking to kill Me, a Man Who has told you the truth which I have heard from God. This is not the way Abraham acted.
    Joh 8:41 You are doing the works of your [own] father. They said to Him, We are not illegitimate children and born out of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me and respect Me and welcome Me gladly, for I proceeded (came forth) from God [out of His very presence]. I did not even come on My own authority or of My own accord (as self-appointed); but He sent Me.
    Joh 8:43 Why do you misunderstand what I say? It is because you are unable to hear what I am saying. [You cannot bear to listen to My message; your ears are shut to My teaching.]
    Joh 8:44 You are of your father, the devil, and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a falsehood, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar [himself] and the father of lies and of all that is false.
    Joh 8:45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me [do not trust Me, do not rely on Me, or adhere to Me].
    Joh 8:46 Who of you convicts Me of wrongdoing or finds Me guilty of sin? Then if I speak truth, why do you not believe Me [trust Me, rely on, and adhere to Me]?
    Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God listens to God. [Those who belong to God hear the words of God.] This is the reason that you do not listen [to those words, to Me]: because you do not belong to God and are not of God or in harmony with Him.
    Joh 8:48 The Jews answered Him, Are we not right when we say You are a Samaritan and that You have a demon [that You are under the power of an evil spirit]?
    Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I am not possessed by a demon. On the contrary, I honor and reverence My Father and you dishonor (despise, vilify, and scorn) Me.

    The Lord has said Jesus words describe you as well as they do the Pharisees.

    THAT is NOT my opinion. That is what God says. Do you know the difference? Probably not.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus,

  • Amen to Mac!

  • Bye to you two, check and you will see that you have managed to chase away any person posting here, I hope that your union bring forth fruits that will satisfy both of you, seems that you own this site and will not allow anyone to post who differs from your position, I really dont care anymore about engaging with either of you in any type of conversation or discussion. Be my guest and enjoy the fruits of your labor. You must feel pretty good about yourselves. Enjoy your work and be happy. At the end the LORD will judge and I just hope that you two are found worthy of been in the presence of Christ. Blessed are the peacemakers.

  • Mario, willful blindness is a terrible sin! You have no excuse. And your ridiculous false accusation “you own this site and will not allow anyone to post who differs from your position” is a further indication of a lying spirit.

  • Mario,

    As William stated clearly, you made ANOTHER False accusation against both of us.

    Not only have you exhibited this lying spirit, but your continued antagonism against us personally shows that you do not have love in your heart that you do NOT follow the Holy Spirit, but the Fruit of your life consists of the Fruit of the FLESH; you know, what Pauls calls the Works of the Flesh in Gal 5!

    You have proven this time after time.

    I have asked you repeatedly to answer 4 questions. All you do is rant and rave against me personally. BUT NEVER ONCE have you answered those questions.

    The reason is, you cannot. You refuse to admit you cannot and therefore must find a way to discredit what I say. You do this by your accusations and false statements hoping to redirect the attention of others onto what you are saying, WHICH ARE LIES, in the hopes that they will believe you over the FACTS!

    Once more, you have proven that you are a Pharisee and that Matt 23 was also spoken about you.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

    So that means goodbye, do not reply to my post, save your energy and strength, you will need it to chase away anyone else posting here, heck who knows, you may turn against your own sidekick.

    People like you that are full of hate chase people away and accept not any one who tries to help you see the wrong of your ways.

    Repent and ask Jesus for guidance, you are poisoning your soul with so much hate, anger and evil desires against those who disagree with you.

    You love to ask question and shout in the 4 corners so everyone can see how good you are. Repent before you become an enemy of Christ.

    You hate reproof, woe unto you for chasing away those who have been trying to help you understand.

    Go and seek in the Bible and show me where the LORD says that there is going to be a mid-tribulation or post-tribulation Rapture.

    for the contrary the LORD says we are not set for the wrath of God.

    Dont answer me, answer to Jesus. I dont want to hear anymore from you or your sidekick. You both show that you dont love anyone else but yourselves.

    The love of Christ is for all the world, you are not the only inheritants of Christ’s love.

    Christ love all those who come to Him and repent and ask for forgiveness and ask to receive the living water that only Christ can give.

    And those who do that love to share the love of Christ with everyone else. You ARE NOT DOING THAT.

    Good bye and seek ye the LORD while He may still be found.

  • There you go, mario, saying I am hating you again.

    WHERE did I hate you? COPY AND PASTE IT ON THIS THREAD!
    But you won’t, you can’t because you know I have NEVER done anything to hate you; I have never said anything at all that shows hatred, WHILE YOU HAVE! and we all know it.

    You are LYING before God and publically before men. The Bible is QUITE CLEAR about the end of those who LIE!

    No mario, I do show the Love of Christ because I always tell the TRUTH. IF there is no truth, there is NO LOVE!

    The Holy Spirit is called the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, not the Spirit of Love.

    And you are NOT speaking the Truth, Mario. yes, I am sharing the Love of Christ. just because you do not like it, does not make it evil. The Pharisees thought the same way as you and Jesus spoke the 7 Woes against them. He spoke those 7 Woes agaist you too, Mario.
    For you are just like them.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Mario – the fact the we are willing to put up with your abuse and abusive attitude is proof enough of our love for Christ, the truth, and you. The fact that you cannot answer any of the quesiotns is proof of your willful blindness – a terrible sin.

  • Dirk A Schnarr what are you views on these?

    Calvinism

    Women behind the pulpit

    Once saved always saved

    Tithing

    Pre-destine or free will

    & literal or non literal 6 day creation?????

  • Calvinism= This is a mixture of truth and lie

    Women behind the pulpit= Gal_3:28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Once Saved Always Saved= (this is just ONE passage, there are many) Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
    Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands]. [Ps. 6:8.]

    Tithing= Old Testament ritual to FEED the priests (it was food not money) Now we are commanded to give freely as the Lord lays on our hearts.

    Predestination or free will = Yes and no. God KNOWS who will be saved BUT HE HIMSELF does not choose for anyone. If He did, then His offer of salvation is a LIE!

    Literal 6 day creation, although we do not know IF those were 24 hour days.

    NOW I ask you a question>>

    Can we walk on this earth with falling into sin?

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • I agree Calvinism is a mixture…

    Galatians 3:28 this not related to Pastoral,pulpit positions etc it is about barriers that existed under law between men and God…if it is read out of context it could also then be read that man could marry man and vice versa…

    point of the matter is on Eternal security is whether or not people think its conditional or un-conditional??

    as for the 6 day creation Well why did Jesus keep the Sabbath ..He seemed to acknowledge it as six 24 hr periods and the hebrew word used in Genesis is the same used for any mention of a 24hr day in hebrew there was other words available to express a period of time other than a day

    can we walk on this earth with or without falling into sin?
    well Jesus did by full submission to God all things are possible with God yet ive not found how to walk without sin period…it takes absolute obedience.

    So by your own admission are you saying that women can preach from behind the pulpit and that you question whether or not it was a literal six day creation?

  • Martin,

    I never said that. You interpreting what I did post as that. How sad. You rely on your own understanding instead of being led by the Holy Spirit; FOR IF you were led by the Holy Spirit, you would have KNOWN I never said what you claim.

    Do NOT put words in my mouth. DO NOT ASSUME for there is evil within you.

    and as for walking without falling read II Peter 1:1-11

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, Dirk

  • ok so am i wrong then ? you dont agree on women behind the pulpit and you disagree on anything but a literal six day creation?

  • lol notice the last sentence ” are you saying” does that not signify a question so i am asking not accusing or misinterpreting i am asking you a question dirk, and to top that you called me sad carnally led and evil within me? man you hypocrite !

  • Child, I am no hypocrite.

    I noticed everything. and your heart is naked before the Lord who told me what was in it.

    Trying to trap me in words JUST LIKE THE PHARISEES tried to trap Jesus.

    You are sad. you are carnally led and BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION you have evil within you.>>>

    “well Jesus did by full submission to God all things are possible with God yet ive not found how to walk without sin period”

    you have dug your own grave, Martin.

    Farewell

  • suddenly the real Dirk rises, man you are nothing more than a hypocrite who calls people names yet accuses people of calling you names yet they didn’t! you ask people to answer your 4 questions yet you didn’t answer mine, my friend you are nothing but a hypocrite who has compromised and attacks other for doing the same lol

    Rom 2:21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
    Rom 2:22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
    Rom 2:23 You who brag about the law, do you dishonour God by breaking the law?
    Rom 2:24 As it is written: God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

    You noticed i said Amen Mac because he’s right what your doing is sitting in texas barking from a computer about a doctrine that has been debated for years yet you will never come to an agreement nor the pre tribbers or the post tribbers fantastic to see what you spend your time doing serving the Lord

  • Farewell indeed ladies and gentlemen who have been apart of this debate for over a year its just one big fish bowl full of squabblers and compromisers attacking eachother whilst holding to doctrines that are just as bad as one another.

  • YOu poor, poor child, how little you know.

    You cannot even admit your errors. I never said what you claim yet you stand in judgment of me. WHo made you the judge?

    God is the Judge ALONE. ANything I have spoken about what is inside anyone came from HIM ALONE and HE is the ONE who said these things. YOu would do better to prepare your heart and mind to face Him, for your time is not far off.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Oh, and Martin,

    You are doing the VERY THING you claim I am doing. THAT is what a hypocrite is, sir.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus

  • 1Jn 4:6 We are [children] of God. Whoever is learning to know God [progressively to perceive, recognize, and understand God by observation and experience, and to get an ever-clearer knowledge of Him] listens to us; and he who is not of God does not listen or pay attention to us. By this we know (recognize) the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error.

    Just like Jesus spoke in John 8, so this is also true and the judgment of the Lord against you.

  • LOL, one more victim to your long list of people you managed to chase away. What a Christian attitude and you call yourself a bondslave in Christ, you sound more like a slave master chastising everyone with your whip and placing chains to their souls. You still have time to repent of your evil ways and turn to the path of Jesus Christ, a path that is build upon love and respect.

  • Mario,
    Martin is his own victim just as you are your own victim. I had NOTHING to do with it. If you had just answered the questions I asked instead of condemning and accusing me, you would have been fine. BUT it is due to your prideful self-centered Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil attitude that has caused all of the trouble here.

    You forget who is the one who attacked MARIO! You are the one who said evil things. You are the one who has shown hatred and an unloving attitude.

    I have asked you repeatedly to post where I have been hateful, but you can’t do it and you won’t; just as I have asked you many times to post the scriptures that prove what I have stated is false. You can’t do that either so YOU attack and accuse.

    How like the pharisees you are.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    PS: You would not know what TRUE LOVE is if it came up to you and slapped you in the face; for it would.

  • Dear Brothers and Sisters,
    May the Lord bless you and open your heart to understand this letter. May He bring your heart to understand that the days are evil and His coming is near. May God show you that every man action, thought, deeds, plans will be judged and show you just like He showed me that if you don’t repent, you will be judged with the people of the world.

    May He bring the fear of God in your heart just like He brought to mine. May He bring you to the fire and test your heart so that you could be refined as silver and tried as gold so that He may bring out of you a pure heart that the Lord says Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.

    And may He show you that without holiness no one will see the Lord and just like He showed me that as a disciple of Christ we must walk in the Spirit, for He can only be worshiped in truth and in Spirit.

    May He grant you wisdom to understand that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom that we all seek and that if you fear the Lord you will always endure to obey His commands and depart from evil for His commands are not burdensome.

    May He show you that what is happening and you are seeing in the television are just birth pains to a greater judgement that is coming for the evil of the world is great that has reached up to heavens and as Jesus said that before His coming the days will be as bad as the days of flood and Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Oh that He may open your eyes to see what is happening and give you a repentant heart that cries clothe my shame Lord, clothe my nakedness Lord, anoint my eyes that i may see and purify my heart that i may be refined as silver and tried as gold.

    That He may open your eyes to see that these things of the world will pass, and help you remove these desires of the world that you may only see Him and not the world.

    Oh May He work in your heart and remove everything that may become a barrier to His way and if possible even deny you the things of the world if they would keep you from seeing Him.

    Brothers and Sisters this letter is a letter of love and May He grant you wisdom to see this.

    Thank you

    Brother in Christ

  • Dear all,

    May God bless you for reading this. May the Lord grant you understanding to know that His judgement is coming. May He grant you wisdom to understand that the evil in the world is so great that many cries goes to heaven for justice. Do you think He will tarry anymore?

    Oh look at the story of the flood the bible says in Gen 6:5-8 And Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long. And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved to His heart. And Jehovah said, I will wipe off man whom I have created from the face of the earth, from man to beast, to the creeping thing and to the birds of the heavens; for I repent that I made them. And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.

    Just look at the above story above the evil of man was great and He was grieved to His heart because the people had closed their hearts and eyes to word of God as He kept on speaking to their hearts. They refused to listen to the Holy Spirit who was speaking to their hearts and because of their rebellion they grieved the Holy Spirit. Oh that you may see, please do not grieve the Spirit of the Lord, listen to His words.

    Oh that you may be not only be a hearer but also a doer of Gods commands and find grace in the eyes of Jehovah just like Noah found grace. For the Lord has said that He will judge everybody and that He has called everybody to prepare for His coming and His coming with rewards, those who have obeyed His commands they will be rewarded and for those who have refused to turn from evil they would receive their reward.

    I wish to tell you that we were all created for God and He put us here to prepare for His coming. Please prepare for His coming in righteousness and Holiness. He is coming.

    This is a letter of love to all people so that you may prepare for His coming and enter into His kingdom which awaits her bride.

    With great Love,

    Brother in Christ

  • Thw world was created in six days, Woman, not man, was deceived and she was created for man, not man for woman, which is why Paul taught no women pastors/elders.

    • where does it say this in the bible??

    • Uhoh William. 🙂

      There is no male or female in the Spirit. An anointed woman can do any thing the Lord wants, same as a man.

      It’s not the vessel, it’s the Holy Spirit. It’s not the letter, it’s the Spirit.

      What was it Joel said about who the Spirit would be poured out on & who would prophesy? There were female deaconesses in the NT.

      No biggie. Just a bit of a correction.

      SamFox

  • Well, Time for the truth about the rapture. It will not come until the very end, just as China and the soviets return to the USA for their last attack with nuclear and scalar weapons. There is no glory to the most high in a pre or mid trib rapture. If humanity will not transend knowledge and technologies by spiritual growth out of love….humanity as a civilization will die. Based on the last description from Yeshua speaking of those who will be with him out of the seven billion people, there will be very very, very few. It is also spoken in the prophetic, that Yeshua will being a billion youth to himself, in three harvests.

  • The perfect language of the original pictographic Hebrew and the written Hebrew is the language of the temple service. In perfect harmonic frequency, we will sing the prayers like Duteronomy 32 and Exodus 15, as the plan of salvation. Pray until the worship comes, worship until the glory cloud comes…and stand (until you will not be able to), in the presence of his love. The symbol for God in pictographic Hebrew is the same symbol for human DNA. All is restored in the glory cloud of his presence. Indeed, if anyone’s spirit is confronted with the spiritual music of any part of creation, the body would immediately transfigure. Intensity of the the angelic spiritual presence be it good or fallen, cannot be withstood by the physical. Even the fallen in the flesh can be sensed as great fear within even a hundred feet of their presence.

  • The Day of the Lord is at hand, make your paths straight, Jesus is coming to take His Bride home.

  • honestly it is so much information that I get overwhelmed. If we get raptured before the tribulation how are all the people left behind going to get saved??

  • Dear Jesus loves you,

    There is NO PLACE in the Bible that says there is a rapture or gathering of the saints prior to the end of the Great Tribulation. The Pre Trib Rapture Doctrine is a doctrine of demons.

    Jesus tell us that the saints will be gathered after the END of the Great Tribulation in Matt 24. There is NO OTHER PLACE in the Bible that speaks of another or second (or first) gathering of the saints to the Lord.

    God bless you!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • You lack of Bible knowledge is amazing. In the Book of Revelation the Angel of the Lord will preach the Gospel throught the whole world, the 144 000 will preach the Gospel, the two witnesses at the wall will preach the Gospel, do you really dont know that or you just pretending to mock those of us who believe in the Pre-Tribulation?

  • Mario,

    There can be NO SALVATION without the Holy Spirit that you pre tribbers say leaves prior to the Trib. How sad you are, how very deceived.

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, Dirk

  • Pingback: Message From The Lamb()

  • The Imminency Of The Rapture: Are You Perpetually Ready?

    “Rapture” is the word used to designate the time of Jesus’ return in the air to take His followers to heaven. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Apostle Paul said that living believers will be “caught up” with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. The Greek word Paul used here is “harpazo”, which means “to snatch away”. When the Bible was translated into Latin, the scholars rendered “harpazo” as “rapturo”. It is just a short step then from “rapturo” to the English word “rapture”. Although the word “rapture” does not appear in the English translation of Scripture, the sense of the word is surely there. Therefore, Christians will be “snatched away” when the Lord Jesus descends with a shout. Jesus Christ will appear suddenly one day, reaches out His arms and makes millions of people, both living and dead, disappear from earth. Here is how Paul described the disappearance of millions of people from the earth into the heavenly kingdom:

    “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (1 Corinthians 15: 51-52)”.
    “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17).”

    The “dead in Christ” would rise first before the living believers in Jesus Christ. This indicates that all people who trusted in Jesus Christ from the Day of Pentecost (over 2000 years ago) until the moment of “rapture”, both the living and the dead, would join Jesus Christ in the air on rapture day. This is an event solely for those who have genuinely accepted the great salvation offer of Jesus Christ and perpetually ready for His glorious appearance. You will be left behind on that day if you are an unbeliever, unrepentant sinner or complacent Christian……..

    Continue reading at the link below:
    http://ideaswealth.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/the-imminency-of-the-rapture-are-you-perpetually-ready/

    • Dear Brother Sola, where is a verse that says on it’s face that Jesus takes us to heaven at His return? One that says so on it’s face, no esigesis, inference or wishful thinking.

      That He takes us to heaven at His return is no where directly stated in the NT.

      All the verse says is that He will come, we will be caught up with Him & so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      It does NOT directly state where.

      Why can’t He come, raise us up & then have us & every one with Him accompany Him to earth?

      What makes the church in the USA so special? You can’t give away the PTR in countries where the persecution has already started.

      Look up what Corrie Ten Boom says about the pre-Trib rapture. You won’t like it, but she is correct.

      Complacent Christians is what the PTR breeds.

      Are you prepared to tell satan to take his mark & stuff it up it’s nose? Oh, you won’t have to get ready for that, you are going to fly away. That’s the beginning of complacency…not having to prepare.

      You really need to study the parable of the wheat & tares. Are you ready to endure to the end? Be raised up, like Jesus Himself said, at the LAST day?

      Why not? 🙂

      SamFox

  • The problem is NOT that there is not a gathering of God’s people to Himself. That is a given. Jesus even speaks of it in Matt 24.

    The MAJOE PROBLEM IS WHEN!

    I Thes 4 says NOTHING about it happening prior to the Great Tribulation. NOT ONE WORD! In fact, if we look at what I Thes 4 does say and compare it to the other places in scripture that do speak of timing, we find that it agrees 100%with what Jesus said in Matt 24, which HE SAYS it occurs AFTER THE END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

    So dear Mr Sola Awolaja, I ask you one more time as I have repeatedly asked the admin of this site to answer the 4 questions I have asked directly from the Bible.

    Here they are once more>>>>

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib.

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Dirk no one has to answer you anything, the Lord said dont cast your pearls before swines. The pre-tribs dont believe in the disappearance of the Holy Spirit as you said, we believe the Holy Spirit will cease to hold the devil as He is doing right now, after the Church rapture the Holy Spirit will release the bonds that hold the devil chained right now, the Holy Spirit still will be on this Earth helping the 144000, the 2 witnesses and the multitude of brothers and sisters who will come to accept Christ during the Tribulation period, those brothers and sisters are the multitude beneath the sea of glass that will die during the persecution of the saints during the Tribulation period. No one has to answer you anything because you are NOT GOD. You think to high of yourself and it is time you repent of the pride that is consuming your life before the fall comes.

  • Mario,

    ALL I have done is repeatedly asked all of you to answer these questions. Instead of doing so, you have attacked and accused me showing you have no love in your hearts and do not follow the Lord. You are seeing yourself in a mirror. How very sad for you!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Bondslave? You seems more like a Satan slave, no one has to answer you anything, who are you the Pope? You are a devious, self righteous, pious, pompous , full of ignorance person, I bet you, you are a member of the Hillsborough Baptist sect or maybe one of these only white people church? No one has to answer you anything, this is a Pretribulation forum, dont like it, dont post anymore.

  • Thank you once more, Mario, for showing everyone who you answer to and it is NOT Jesus Christ, but rather it is satan.

    Every time we get to this point you must come back and attack and accuse me using all sorts of evil words against me. You need to read I Cor 13 a few times and ask the Lord to impart LOVE, HIS LOVE into your heart, for you certainly have none.

    Assumptions and accusations are all you have. The Accuser of the Brethren is who you follow. How sad you are.

    IF you or anyone is going to HONESTLY preach the TRUTH, then you MUST answer the questions I have asked. If you want to preach what you thing, your opinion, man’s ideas, that sort of thing, then of course you do not have to answer my questions.

    Once more, your attitude shows who you follow.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • You are a sad person, so much anger and hate for those who disagree with you, every single time one new brother posts here, you and you only attack them, answer me why you feel the need to attack everyone? learn that you may be the one wrong and not the rest of the Christian brethren, tell me what church do you go? White people only church? I dare you to answer my question.

  • Sorry Mario,

    Once again, you are seeing yourself. I have no anger, no hate. But you have shown everyone time and time again just how much you have those negative attributes.

    I have not attacked anyone. I have asked questions. WHY DO YOU feel the need to accuse me? Why is it so very difficult to answer the questions I have asked?

    You have personally verbally assaulted me many times, without provocation. But even if I did provoke you (which I did NOT) that never would have given you the right to attack and accuse me as you have.

    No, Mario. You are talking about yourself, not me. I have been reasonable, simply asking questions and when you did accuse and attack, all I did was point out what you were doing.

    how have I attacked them? By asking them a question, and pointing out their hypocrisy. Just as I have with you, Mario.
    If I am wrong, then SHOW ME FROM THE BIBLE instead of attacking me and accusing me. I have stated several times that if you or anyone else can show me from the Bible where it disproves what I have said and proves a pre trib rapture to post those verses. NO ONE, has done so, INCLUDING yourself.
    I even went so far as to say that if you could show from the Bible where I am wrong, that I would retrack all I have said publically. and apologize for spreading lies.

    have you ever made the same claim? NO, you have not, even though I have repeatedly disproven a pre trib rapture several times.
    I go to the Church that Jesus Christ is the head of. You obviously donot or you would not act like satan.
    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Then say what church you go, I go to a Baptistc Church where all races and colors are welcome. What about you? Hiding behind your little white church? You dont have any right to ask anyone anything, like I told you before you are NOT GOD. He is the only want we have to give an account of our actions, you are a poor, sad old man with nothing better to do in your pathetic life that attack anyone who comes here to this forum and post anything that doesnot fit in your pathetic view of your almighty vision. Get off the horse before you hit your behind on the ground.

  • How evil you are, Mario. Assuming such evil of a brother. Where is the Love of Christ Jesus in you? Or do you have even the smallest portion of Him?

    Where have I attacked anyone? I have asked questions. YOU are the one who accuses. YOU are the one who assumes evil. YOU are the one who shows his heart is full of hatred and anger. I have not called you names. I just pointed to your words of accusation and said where they came from.

    Again and again, you attack, you accuse, you assume evil. I have spoken from the scriptures. THEY are the ones that have the authority to demand you answer. If you preaech something that contradicts the scriptures IT IS FALSE DOCTRINE! And you are preaching something that contradicts the scriptures, UNLESS you can answer the questions above.

    But you can’t and you know it, so you do everything you can to discredit me in your own eyes so you do not have to deal with the truth!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    PS: I go to Abundant Life Full Gospel Church, and there are various races there. So, once more, you assume evil and are WRONG!
    The venom drips from your fingers in all your words against me.

  • In first place you are not my brother, I even question if you are a Christian like you said you are. The only person that takes pleasure in bashing people is you. Every single time any poster comes here and makes a post you bash them, you accuse them of been heretics because we believe in pre-tribulation rapture, since when your position about rapture saves you? That is the part you dont get. Only trusting in Jesus Christ saves you, because you are pre, mid or post tribulation doesnot save you. It is your personal relationship with Christ, if you have come with the attitude of “here is my position about Rapture, this is what I believe and we agree to disagree we will get along, but you come with your sarcastic attitude about “answer my 4 questions, why dont you answer my 4 questions, I have asked everybody including the owner of this website to answer my 4 questions” you sound like a little child who is not getting away with his wish. Look at how many people that used to post here have not returned and every single time one brother in Christ posts here with a different opinion than yours you bash them, what is going on? Are you the owner of life? Give me a break. It is time someone tells you what you need to hear. We may agree to disagree but you cannot impose your view on me and I cannot impose my view on you. Rapture doctrinal position doesnot save, so stop calling people heretics because they dont agree with you. When you agree to disagree then we can reconcile but as long as you keep this posture you are NOT my brother in Christ.

  • Now you are lying, Mario.

    I have NOT bashed people. I ask questions. YOu are the one who is bashing me.

    I have nOT said what you believe about the rapture sends you to hell. THAT is a lie. OUT and OUT LIE! Once more, you show who your father is; the father of lies. NOT because you believe in a pre trib rapture, but because you lie about me and you refuse to repent of your hypocrisy.

    I am NOT imposing my view on you. I am telling you the truth. You attack me because of that truth.

    The Bible is quite clear who acts like you do. They are NOT Christians. Simple. Your own actions and words show who is your father. It has nothing to do with believing in a pre trib rapture. You are very deceived.

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, Dirk

  • OK, you know what, you are the one who will have to give an answer to Christ, I do as the Lord instructed me, I am shaking the dust from my sandals in your doorway. Here let your own words be your judge

    “So dear Mr Sola Awolaja, I ask you one more time as I have repeatedly asked the admin of this site to answer the 4 questions I have asked directly from the Bible.”

    You see how obsess you are with the 4 questions? Now tell me again if I am lying. Dont bother I will not repply to you again. Repent and seek the peace of God.

  • Mario,

    I have asked 4 questions over the last year and a half.
    NOT ONE of you pre trib people have been able to answer those questions. Those questions PROVE a pre trib rapture is IMPOSSIBLE.

    And you attack me for being some kind of heretic, when it is you and your adherents to this false doctrine that are the real culprits.

    Yes, you are lying. I never said you will go to hell for believing the pre trib rapture lie.

    I did point out that you MAY, notice that word clearly, MAY, be subject to what II Thes 2:1-12 states about those who choose not to believe the Truth but a lie; that God HIMSELF will send them a delusion that they must believe a lie and their end is perdition.

    I do not know if you are one of those. I never said that at all. What I did state was that your assumptions and out and out lies against me and what I have said show who your father is and they do. All you have to do is repent and seek the Lord. He will fix you IF you are willing AND obedient.

    But you are not, are you? You continue to speak lies against me and assume evil of me which goes against what I Cor 13:7 says that God’s love does. We are told that God’s love in us always assumes the BEST of a person NOT the worst. You have continually assumed the worst of me and have been wrong EVERY TIME!

    How sad for you!

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, Dirk

  • If you read the bible as it is, it says that the wicked will be taken out of the world.

  • Yes, Embarae

    It does say that, doesn’t it?

    Kind of puts a stop to the Pre Trib Rapture, don’t it?

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • You speak about brother in Christ what about again your own words condemn you

    “NOT ONE of you pre trib people have been able to answer those questions. Those questions PROVE a pre trib rapture is IMPOSSIBLE.”

    You see, you didnt say pre trib brothers in Christ, you said very despotically you pre trib people like we are a second class kind of Christian.

    Man you need to review yourself, the Lord said before you can pull the mote of your brother’s eye, remove the sycamore tree you have on your own.

    I am guilty of been passionate about my love for Christ, that I am guilty as charge, but at the same time I can spot someone who abuses his knowledge of the Bible to humiliate other brothers in Christ and you Sir, YOU DO THAT. YOU ARE A BULLY, you use your knowledge to show how big you are or how much you know and you humiliate other brothers because they are not as knowledgeable as you are. You dont act like a brother who cares to teach others, you act like a bully.

  • Mario,

    No amount of somantics will change the TRUTH! Nothing makes you happy. But here you are once more accusing and belittling, straining over a gnat when you swallow a camel JUST LIKE THE PHARISEES DID!

    How like them you are.

    You are guilty of LACK OF LOVE, ACCUSING THE BRETHREN, HATRED, ANGER, LYING, These sins, come from YOUR OWN WORDS! Not from my imagination as your accusations against me do.

    I am no bully. I have been very moderate, respectful, and decent. I pointed out your inequities and yourlies.

    I have repeatedly asked you to answer those questions and gave you the opportunity to post them MANY, MANY TIMES. Telling you and all who read these words that if you could answer them from the Bible I would retrack my arguments and apologize for all misunderstandings and errors.

    HAVE YOU MADE THE SAME OFFER?

    No, you have not. All you have continued to do is accuse and attack and make evil assumptions of me. AND NOT ONE OF THOSE ACCUSATIONS have you been able to prove. NOT ONE, Mario.

    I, on the other hand, have much evidence of your anger, hatred, accusations, assumptions, and lack of love. Who is acting like Christ and who is acting like satan?

    The one who is lying is NOT acting like Christ.

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, DIrk

  • Dude you are the biggest liar I have seen in my life. Repent and seek the true God because you are serving a false God, seek Jesus and your heart will change, that hate you have against believers who stand their ground on the position of Pre-Tribulation shows your true colors, stop lying and repent, stop using your false gospel as an umbrella to hide your true intentions, come clean servant of Satan and admit who your true master is, your master is not Christ but the devil.

  • The best evidence that you are not of God, it is that you single handed have managed to chase away all the posters that have come here, so give me an answer how come no one is posting here anymore, every time 1 single person posts and you reply they never post again, that is because of you and your attitude, you are chasing everyone away. Dude, before replying and if you are truly a Christian as you proclaim, STOP, THINK AND LOOK, you are the reason this forum is deserted, because you have chased everyone away, IS THAT THE CHRISTIAN WAY???

  • mario,

    GET HONEST!

    Who has been accusing? I have never accused anyone.
    Who has called names? I have not
    Who has threatened others? Not me
    Who has done all of this and more?

    Mario has.

    Look to yourself, sir. You accuse me and it is yourself that you are actually accusing for it is YOU have done all of these things.
    AND, those who do not follow the Lord are ALWAYS Silenced by His truth proclaimed. I speak His truth. ALWAYS. If they do not post it is due to your own sins or the fact that they cannot face His Truth.

    mario, I have continually exhibited His peace, love, understanding, I have been more than lenient, I have given you many opportunities to reply, I have even said I would recant if you proved me wrong, BUT YOU CANNOT NOR HAVE YOU EVEN TRIED TO DO SO!

    At no time, have you ever made an attempt to find out His truth. All you are interested in is proclaiming a false doctrine that cannot be supported by ALL the scriptures take together, as I have previously posted several that contradict your idea.

    So, once more, we find that it is YOU, Mario, and those like you who are attacking, accusing, are full of anger, hatred and are NOT walking in LOVE assuming the WORST about brothers and sisters in Christ. I have assumed nothing. Your own words have shown what is in your heart.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • So answer my question I have keep asking you, why you are the only one left here? Why every single poster have abandoned this forum after you have confronted them? Answer and I will shut up.

  • Mario,

    I just told you. But I will say it again.

    There are 2 reasons.
    1. They are tired of your accusations and lies against a brother in Christ.
    2. They are unwilling to face the TRUTH that they are wrong about a pre trib rapture so they INVENT reasons (as do you) to discredit what is spoken against their belief and leave so that they do not have to face their duplicity.

    THAT is the GOD’s ABSOLUTE TRUTH!

    And it doesn’t matter what you think, what matters is, what has God said. Jesus said the gathering of the saints will take place AFTER the Great Tribulation. PERIOD!

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • So according with you, all those who left before I ever posted here and were engaged with you, also left because of my accusations? Good grief man, you know what, you win, you are more closed than a clamp. You are the best, the only saved, the only true christian in this world, so enjoy your life.

  • Mario,

    No wonder you cannot understand. I told you there were 2 reasons. You totally ignored the 2nd.

    Ravenhill said back in 1979 (if I recall corectly) that he beleived less than 2% of those who claimed to be Christian were in fact saved.

    The percentage if FAR LESS today! But you don’t believe that Jesus’ words about the Great Falling Away have anything to do with the Church, do you?

    Don’t you realize we are near the END of the Great Falling Away and The Birth Pains are coming to their final throes of pain, the intensity is rising rapidly and soon, the Tribulation will be upon us?

    I never made the claims you say about me. I don’t claim to be the only or the best, far from it. I do know somethings the Lord has taught me, but I do not know all, never have I claimed that.

    My life is full of joy, peace, comfort and the Lord Himself.

    You refuse to look at the way you have acted and the words you have said, You ignore your duplicity and twist what I have said to suit your own purpose.

    Who else does that according to the Bible, Mario? See, you refuse to face that as well. Who accuses the brethren, Mario? Why do you assume EVIL of me? yet not one time have you been able to provide one shred of evidence about all your evil accusations. NOT ONE!

    I have even asked you to copy and paste it and you refuse. The reason is, there is no evidence; I never did the things you accuse me of.

    But you have, haven’t you Mario? You have threatened, and called me names, and assumed evil, and accused me of not being a Christian because I disagree with you, yet not one time have I said an unchristian or unscriptural thing.

    What are you going to say to the Lord when you stand before Him about all of this false evil you have piled on my head? You have much to answer for, Mario, and you will. I only hope that you ahve not crossed the line.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • I forgive you brother. May God also forgive you and bless you.

  • Mario,

    I have done nothing wrong. I am NOT the one who lied, who falsely accused another, assumed evil or anything else. YOU DID! But I have never held anything against you, Mario. I have continued to be civil to you, not using the kind of language you have used against me.

    God has blessed me and continues to do so, speaking to me and teaching me daily.

    May you repent of your foolishness and sin and come back into His fellowship.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • I am sorry Dirk you are right, you are entitle to your opinion and I should not and must not attack you and insult you. You ahve the right to express your opinion in anyway you feel is the proper one. We just disagree. So my apologies and hope you have a wonderful weekend. Rosh Hashanah is around the corner, let the shofar of God blows announcing a new year.

  • Mario,

    What I have stated is NOT my opinion. It is what God has said. I have told you this many times, but you can’t seem to hang onto this in your head.

    We are NOT under the ceremonial Laws. In fact, we are NOT under the OT Laws at all. We are under Matt 5-7. Those are Jesus commands. Along with the command to DENY YOURSELF, TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW HIM!

    You do not do this. YOu rely on what you can figure out, NOT on what HE says.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

    PS: But all you have done, consistently is attack and insult me, Mario. Once again, what does that say about your heart? Notice, I have mentioned this several times and not once have you dealt with it.

  • I said I am sorry, I apologized and you still keep attacking me, you cannot even accept an apology???

  • This quote of you really hits a cord, is this what you heart is telling you after a brother asked you for forgiveness?

    PS: But all you have done, consistently is attack and insult me, Mario. Once again, what does that say about your heart? Notice, I have mentioned this several times and not once have you dealt with it.

    I will not apologize anymore. Let the Lord be our Judge.

  • What did you apologize for, Mario?

    You say you apologize with one breath and accuse once more with the next. I have explained this to you many times.

    The quote you posted that I wrote to you is apt. Why don’t you answer the question, Mario? Answer it truthfully. You still have not dealt with it. The Lord has already judged.

    The scriptures have been given to you many times and you ignore them. There is no brokenness, no humility, no remorse, no tru repentence.

    You say words that have no meaning in your heart and you know it. how do I know? Because He told me and from your own words.

    Remember what Jesus said. OUT of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks (and the fingers type!)

    Words mean little. Where is the reality of the remorse and repentance in your heart? Here, I will show you what the scriptures say>>>>>>

    Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God consists of and is based on not talk but power (moral power and excellence of soul).
    1Co 4:21 Now which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of correction, or with love and in a spirit of gentleness?

    Which do you have, Mario, words or moral excellence of soul? Ask GOD and stop complaining about me. GO SEEK THE LORD and find out what HE ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT THE CONDITION OF YOUR OWN HEART. Instead of whining and accusing and complaining about me.

    I wonder if you will do this; God says no.

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, Dirk

  • Wow. This is precisely how Christianity gets a bad name. I came here to learn. I will never visit this site again, so don’t bother responding to me. It’s plain to see that the Devil is at work here. As Christians, we’re supposed to love each other (even our enemies)…not judge…not insult…not condemn…not viciously quarrel over, of all things, God. That’s how bloody wars start. How can someone say such hurtful things and then call himself a “blondslave in Christ”? These are not sentiments that Christ would write. Maybe pause a moment and read all of your comments, Dirk. Ask yourself if this is the type of “Christian” you want to be…if this is the type of “Christian” Jesus wants you to be. Maybe instead of arguing over when the rapture will take place, perhaps we should all work on being ready for it…striving to be the kind of person that the Lord will choose. I will pray for you, Dirk. I really will. Along with the others who became entangled. I’ll also pray that this site becomes a vehicle for healthy debate, or no debate at all. A vehicle for good. A vehicle for God.

    • Kim, please don’t over react. Even Paul & Barnabas disputed over John Mark. They got it together later.

      Ready for the rapture? What pre trib rapture? 🙂

      You need to pray the Lord increase your faith if you faith the rapture. Not being mean, but the PTR is not in the book. It is only inferred as beingin there…

      SamFox

  • Ah, Kim,

    What did I say that was hurtful? Copy and paste it, but you won’t. what about all the accusation Mario has made?

    I know exactly what I said. They were made in response to what omeone accused me of without evidence. They assumed evil of me just as you are. SHOW ME where I did anything wrong.

    But you won’t nor can you.

    Did you know Mario PUBLICALLY threatened me with physical violence?Did you read that? When he did “apolgize” for that with the very same breath, he accused me once more.

    And you call that Christian? What are you doing, kim? Once more accusing me of evil because I do not agree with your ideas of the rapture.

    EVERYTHING I have told Mario and anyone else, INCLUDING YOU, has come from God Himself. I suggest you look to your own walk instead of condemning me.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • The reality of this is that we can argue back and forth till we are blue in the face, each side thinking they are right. We should STOP arguing, spread the Good News, and continue to live as Jesus commanded. We call all agree that the Lord is coming back soon, and whatever scenario plays out in the end times, we need to be ready!

  • We cannot argue back and forth unless we ignore the WHOLE COUNSEL of the scriptures, which is exactly what the pre tribbers are doing

    Then because they cannot answer my questions from the Bible, they accuse and attack and assume evil of me. NOW, where do those attributes point to as their source God or satan?

    THAT tells us all that the pre trib doctrine is a LIE!

    Jesus will come back when HE said He will, at the END of the Great Tribulation. He states this quite clearly in Matt 24.

    As I have previously asked, post the verse that tells us of another gathering of God’s people prior to the tribulation.

    NO ONE can do this for there is no verse that says this.

    God is NOT in any lie. God does NOT lie. God will have nothing to do with a lie. Since the pre trib rapture doctrine is a lie, it did not come from God.

    For it NOT to be a lie, the 4 questions I have asked MUST be answered directly from the Bible.

    Will you do this, Marissa?.
    I know you will not, because neither you nor anyone else can find a verse that answeres those questions anywhere in the Bible. Therefore, whoever is promoting a pre trib rapture is promoting a lie and they have NOT heard from God and they are deceiving people by this lie.

    To not speak of this, to be silent about this atrocity, when I know the truth would NOT be walking in love for LOVE never allows a lie to continue unchallenged. It is for this reason I have continued to ask these questions, because I do love His truth and I love all of you as well.

    The very fact that people continue to promote this lie proves they have no love in their hearts. and the actions of those who have spoken against me, such as Mario and Kim, promve they do not have love in their hearts because they do not love the TRUTH!

    And that is why, Mario, you MUST answer the 4 questions. But I know you will not nor can you.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, DIrk

  • Dirk you are very naive, dont you get that you are the only one with the head stuck in the sand, many brothers and sisters have tried to correct you but you refuse counseling, you are the one who is making enemies all the time. I will not answer you anymore, your own words condemn you. You dont want peace, you just want people to accept that you think you are right. That is nt argument, that is been legalistic. You have managed to alienate anyone who comes in touch with you. Anyways, this is my last post and will put you in my trash bin so I dont see your comments anymore. Repent and find Christ because you are moving far away from Him really fast.

  • No Mario, I am not.

    You are. Leonard Ravenhill said in 1979 (I think) that about 2 % of professing Christians were actually saved. That number has decreased by more than a fator of 10. According to your reasoning, Jeremiah was quite deceived and so was Isaiah. Everyone told them they were in error. But it was the multitude who were wrong.

    It is the same here. I am NOT far from Him. I am quite close and everytime I have pointed out your duplicity you have either ignored it completely or given lip service to an apology without having a change of heart.

    I do not make enemies. I speak the TRUTH. You and those like you CHOOSE to run from the ruth so you make yourselves enemies of God. How very sad for you all!

    Who is the one who has accused, assumed evil, threatened, etc? It was not me Mario. It was you.

    And all of your words show where your heart is and you refuse to believe what Jesus said about out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Your constant condemnation and accusation says where your heart is, Mario. But you and those like you close your eyes to your sin and twist the words I speak into something you can discredit in your own eyes so you do not have to deal with them

    But God sees that and you will NOT escape unpunished.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Dirk I feel sorry for you. The Bible says if I believe in my heart that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died in the cross of the Calvary for my sins and He is right now at the right hand of God interceding for me, if I believe that in my heart and confess with my mouth I am saved, so see you cannot take away my salvation or anyone else, it doesnot matter what my position is about the Rapture, I am saved and I feel sorry for you. Such a weight you have place on your narrow shoulders. I feel sorry for you because you are missing the joy of brothers and sisters in Christ to have diverse opinions about theological issues beside the salvation. We can argue, but we always are ready to forgive our brethren if the offend us, because the Lord said before you bring your prayers before me, if there is anyone whom you have offended or have offended you make restitution. Peter asked the Lord how many times I shall forgive my brother 7 times and the Lord replied 70 times 7. You cant even forgive 1 time. Whose heart is hard and whose heart is at peace with Christ? Be honest to yourself.

  • Do no feel sorry for me. I am not the one who has continually judge another about their salvation. BUT YOU HAVE DONE THAT TO ME CONSISTENTLY!

    I just said you were following satan. Which by the fruit of your words which shows what is in your heart, you are!

    You have threatened me, accused me falsely, assumed evil of me, and on and on. Those are NOT the actions of a person who is submitted to Christ Jesus, I DO NOT CARE HOW MANY TIMES YOU HAVE PRAYED THAT PRAYER. If the very life of Jesus Christ is not flowing our of your life into others, then how can you even begin to claim salvation. You are NOT doing the will of the Father according to Jesus in Matt 7.

    But that is between you and Him, I just pointed to your duplicity. YOU are the one who continually says I am not saved. YOU, Mario. How sad, that you are speaking to yourself and don’t even know it.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • Did you bother to read what I posted instead of repeating yourself like a broken record, re-read what I wrote. I feel sorry for you for living a life full of so much hate and lack of forgiveness. I feel sorry for you because you have encased yourself in this urn that is not allowing you to see what is located outside your door, how can you call yourself a bondslave of Christ but forget the first premise of Christ ministry, it is called forgiveness. He forgave you and me our sins if we repent of our evil doing, I have repented and I have been trying to make peace with you but you refused to accept my request for forgiveness, if you cannot forgive your brother how can you preach anyone about Christ. I feel sorry for you. I forgave you and I forgive you again, I hope you can see the damage you are doing to others and to yourself with your attitude. An unforgiven heart speaks against the most fundamental principle of a Christian person.

  • how many times must I tell you I have no hate no anger, and that I hold nothing against you?
    You just don’t get it, Mario. You are continually assuming evil of me.

    THAT IS NOT LOVE! Where is the Love of God that has been shed abroad in the hearts of His people? you certainly do not exhibit it at all. Instead, you accuse, assume, evil, call me names, threaten me, etc. and yet YOU SAY I am the one full of anger and hate.

    Mario, you are seeing yourself once more.

    You had nothing to forgive me of, I did nothing wrong. I have NEVER held anything against you. I have continued to speak to you without the kind of accusations you have made against me. Just because I tell you about them does NOT mean I hold them against you. You certainly do not see those sin in your life. You are absolutely blind even though I have repeatedly told you every time you make an evil assumption, every time you accuse me etc.

    I have asked you to show me, to copy and paste where I have accused you or done any of the things you claim I have done. You have yet to show me one place, one copy of one statement where I did all these thigns you claim I am doing.

    SO, you are publically defaming me. If I were vindictive, I could sue you since this is a public forum. I might even be able to bring charges against you for the threats you have made against me.

    But I have done none of these things. I have continued to speak to you respectfully, and relating to you those things you have failed in. I have NOT treated you as you have treated me. I have walked in love toward you.

    You cannot say that at all. You are the one who basks in unforgiveness and bitterness. Almost every word you speak to me has accusation and evil assumption in it.

    That is the kind of thing satan does. So you act like satan, yet claim to be a Christian. Isn’t that part of the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees? Oh, yes, that is called hypocrisy

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • So bottom line you dont forgive me?

  • Mario,

    Where did you get the idea I don’t forgive you? I told you I did. Thta does not mean I trust you. Noe have you repented from your sins, nor have you shown me remorse for the way you have treated me, nor have you truly HUMBLE asked for forgiveness for the way you have talked to me.

    But I have not held these things against you. I care about you. That is the reason I contine to speak to you, because I DO forgive you.

    You have little understanding about true Christianity. You have listened to me and your denomination instead of being taught by God Himself.

    I forgive you totally. But I still continue to warn you about your actions and words because you have not changed the way you act or write. If you had truly repented, you would have changed the way you speak to me, you would have been humble and remorseful. But no, you have not been any of those. You continue to lie, twist the words I write to suit your own purpose so you do not have to accept them, at least in your own mind.

    But God holds you accountable until and unless you do repent with true remorse.

    But you do not understand this. You have listened to men and follow their ways instead of following the ways of the Lord.

    You are being WARNED, Mario. If you do not allow God to judge your words and your actions now, you MAY be in grave danger.

    But you will once more, not read the words I have written, but change them so you look good in your own eyes and will AGAIN, ignore what I have told you to your own detriment.

    I do and have continuously forgiven you Mario. But everytime I turn around, you commit the same sins over and over again. Those who PRACTICE sin, those who habitually sin, will NOT enter the Kingdom of God. Do you doubt what I have just said? It is in the Bible. Here, I willpost a couple of verses that tell you that WHOEVER sins habitually, that means on a regular basis, has been born of God.

    1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him–deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

    1Jn 3:9 No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

    1Jn 5:18 We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him].

    NOW THAT is what the Bible says, despite what so many denominations say.

    Argue with God if you want to. I choose not to do so. Here is another place. Look at the sins that keep a person from inheriting the Kingdom of God>>>>

    Gal 5:19 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
    Gal 5:21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    read it again, Mario. If ANYONE practices these sins, they WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD! I did not say this, the BIBLE does.

    And it is for this reason that I have continued to warn you about the way you speak and all of your false accusations against me. I do hope you will repent and allow the Lord to change you FINALLY on the inside so those things will never be a part of your life again.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  • this rapture thing will not happen the way you think,all things have to be revealed,not all will saved,you have to at a certain place at a certain time or the door will be shut,and you’l be cast into darkness.there other things also i wont i wont talk about here.so quit aruing and pray for wisdom that you might understand this topic.

  • Dear brother Dick, my sincere apologies for any word I have written that may have offended you or disrespected you. I have been struggling with personal issues that have affected my judgement. My sincere apologies to you for any evil, disrespectful or offensive word I have said or thought about you. brothers n Christ may disagree but never, ever should disrespect each other and I have disrespected you. My honest, humble and sincere apologies. may the Face of God always shine upon your path and His light may always guide you in this world and may His love always protect you and cover you with His wings. May the blessings of the Lord always surround you and your house and may He make you prosper in all the things you do.

  • Pingback: The Rapture « SHOFAR 37()

  • I have spent the last 2 hours reading though what is effectively a years worth of arguing (from the first post put there a year ago until last weeks one). Some of the awful mud slinging backwards and forwards is NOT Godly behaviour and would make Jesus sad, as it does me.
    And I fully expect to be bombarded with “where’s your scriptural evidence?!”
    I will not become a part of hurling essay sized chunks of God’s words back and forth, all trying to prove you’re right in your different ways – blasphemous actions.
    I will continue to do my best to live as Jesus would, spread God’s word (in a POSITIVE way) and look forward to one day meeting our Saviour up in Heaven.
    God bless you all – may you find peace…

  • Believing in the Rapture is a sure sign of mental illness.

  • Vambo, believing in the pre trib rapture is a sign of being deceived & following a false doctrine. not mental illness. It’s like the candidates. You have to look deeper than what they say.

    In this case, deeply studying the Word without preconceived definitions or searching to proof text an idea or doctrine.

    Hannah, mud slinging is wrong & not at all like Yeshua. You are right on that.

    The reason I post is to educate folks to the fact that we must endure to the end, that Yeshua will raise up His people at the last day as He said. The final trumpet call of Revelation is what I have in mind.

    I believe we must be individually & corporately prepared to resist the coming mark of the beast system. If we don’t have to face it, fine by me.

    BUT IF we do have to face that challenge, Father is able to bring us safe to Himself, as Paul told Timothy, [Last chapt. II Tim.] though it may be the way Paul got there, martyrdom.

    Paul did not love his life even to death. Are we of the same mind?

    We don’t need a rapture. We need a relationship with Yeshua & Father via the Holy Spirit. We MUST know His written Word. We MUST always stay close to Him. We should emulate the five wise virgins who had extra oil, just in case. That way even I am wrong & we are PTR’d, we’ll be ready. We won’t miss Him.

    If I am right & there is no PTR, will everyone else be ready?

    I do think using the term ‘blasphemous actions’ is a bit over the top, but I may not have read the post[s] you refer to.

    SamFox

  • Crazy. Everyone here is crazy.

    Rapture? Really? Have you read Revelations? It reads just like a mythical story made up by the Greeks or Romans. And to think it is literal! My Science!

    Please do not delude yourself with false ideas. Come to Science. Come to Facts. Come to Rationalization. May Science Enhance you.

  • You’re all missing the point. It is NOT for us to try and figure out when we will be caught up. For in Matt. 24:36 reads “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” and Mark 13;32 reads “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

    Why should you consume your time trying to figure something out, that is not told in The Bible. The ONLY thing you should be asking yourself is “Am I truly a born again blood bought Christian? If you answers honestly, for God knows the heart, and it is yes; Who cares? You’ll join the rest in Heaven. If you cannot answer that question without a doubt. Then you need to settle it with God, before it’s too late. None of us are guaranteed tommorrow or our next breath. Settle it now, and be sure, OR you can wait till later and take your chances.

    It’s YOUR choice.

  • Some of you guys need to do some homework and not just repeat some thing you heard from someone who knows just enough of the bible to be confused. There actually will be 7 in total raptures or catching always. Enoch, Elijah, Jesus and those old testament saints that rose with him, the pre tribulation rapture of the church,the 144000 Jewish evangelists and their converts, the two witnesses, and when Jesus returns some more people will be glorified. I am not going to do your homework for you, grow up and do some responsible study,the sources are plentiful.

  • Your 7 raptures, or catching aways don’t fit here. We are talking about the 2nd advent of Yeshua Messiah. None of your 7 are that, including the PTR. There will be a catching away of the whole Church to be sure, but only at Yeshua’s one & only 2nd coming, return or appearance. Choose one, they all mean the same thing.

    If you want to believe in a pre trib rapture, go ahead. But it is not scriptural, nor has a 2 part 2nd advent EVER been a part of Church doctrine before about 1935.

    Before then no Bible commentator, like Adam Clark, comments or teaches about a 2 part 2nd advent that leaves a future part of the Body of Christ behind. No commentator talks about trib saints or a dichotomy between natural Israel & the Church. Read John 17 in the Amplified.

    Yeshua prays that ALL who ever believe on Him be one in Him & Father. So there CAN”T be a diff between Jew & Gentile or any other distinction that makes 2 groups of saints. if we are born again. Paul says Yeshua makes us one new man. Source: Ephesians 2:13-16. Check it in the Amplified.

    You need to show us where the Bible it self says the 144,000 are called Jewish evangelists. If you study the word ‘saint’, you will find it’s the same word all through the NT. There are no original Greek word modifiers for ‘saints’ in the book of Revelation that we can use to say “See, this means Jewish evangelists or Trib Saints”.

    No dis meant, but you need to study the Book. You seem to rely on what is said ABOUT the Bible rather than searching it our for yourself. Your 1st sentence points to you as much as any one Bro. 🙂 [Or Sis]

    I have been at this since 1969. I have studied a few pre-trib books. They use eisegesis rather than exegesis to ‘prove’ the teaching. “We can conclude” or “so this MUST be or mean” this or that, are a coupla of the phrases that pre-fix every point of the PTR teaching. Not ONE verse at face value can be used to establish that Yeshua is coming 2 more times but it’s only one 2nd advent. IMO it’s rather absurd to say that Yeshua is coming once, then 7 yr later He returns again & both equal only one 2nd advent.

    Exegesis & esiogesis. There is a very important distinction between the two methods of Bible study. Father’s peeps need to know them.

    On the net, copy & paste the following term in a search & look up

    Exegesis eisegesis the difference

    Pre Trib teaching also relies heavily on
    implication. “This implies” such & so is another common term used.

    For example, in Thess. you are told that when Yeshua returns He takes us to heaven then, that’s His 1st stage of His so called 2 part 2nd advent. But the word ‘heaven’ is not in the verse. That “so we are ever with the Lord” in heaven, at His 2nd appearing, return or coming is speculation & wishful thinking. Though we do go there when we die.

    Don’t forget, Yeshua Himself said that He would raise up those that believe on Him at the LAST DAY. He says we need to endure to the end. The last day is at the end, when the final, 7th trump sounds.

    Please do a study of endure to the end, saints & when the last day is in the Book. Carefully read the parable of the wheat & tares.

    There is no way possible to come up with a PTR
    if the Bible is taken at face value & meaning is not imposed on & added to the verses [esiogesis] rather than taking them face up [exegesis] .

    Read the last chap. of II Tim. Paul made it to Father’s heavenly kingdom, but he was murdered to get there. Also look in the Amplified for the definition of ‘escape’ in I Cor. 10:13. This is the ONLY straight up definition of ‘escape’ in the NT.

    You can find the Amplified at BibleGateWay.com if you don’t have a copy.

    Thanks.

    SamFox

  • I forgot to mention, do a study of ‘patience &/or endurance of the saints’ in Revelation. Very revealing.

    SamFox

  • The End of the Age is the End of the Age of Grace.
    You will not know the Day or the Hour but you Will know when it is Close … Even at the Door.
    The Day and Hour varies at different Locations Around the World which is why you don’t know the day or hour.
    The Sixth Seal of Revelations Perfectly Describes a Polar Shift of Earth’s Crust when Passing through the Galactic Plane around Dec 21 2012.
    The Rapture will Occur Before that and Before Mystery Babylon the Great is Destroyed (Over 50 Million Abortions and Gay Marriage … God thrown out of our Government …. etc, etc).
    I am looking Forward to the Rapture!

    • Not knowing the day or the hour has to do with the sighting of the new moon, or first sliver of the moon. The feast of trumphets is what is what Paul is talking about, if you have not studied The Feast of The Lord, you can not understand end-time prophecy. Read Leviticus 23, Yahweh say’s these are my feast…not Jewish feast. The jewish people are 1/12 of the tribes of Isreal, hence all jews are Isrealites but not all Isrealites are jews. There are 7 feast which consist of Passover( when Jesus was crucified) then Unleavened Bread(which represents his time in the grave) then First Fruits(his resurrection and asscencion and then Pentecost(the giving of the Spirit). Jesus has fulfilled the first 4 feast in his first coming and will fulfill the last 3 which are Feast of Trumphets (which is on the first day of the seventh month) a day that no one knows the day or hour, because it has to do with the sighting of the new moon…which starts the new month. Trumphets has to do with the resurrection and blowing of trumphets, that is why Paul says at the sound of the trumphet, then you have the Day of Atonement which is for the Nation of Isreal(all believers who have been grafted in to the Common Wealth). Then there is the Feast of Tabernacles which represents his dwelling with his people and is also when Jesus was born. The gospel of John chapter 1, the word used for dwelt as in the he dwelt among us is the Hebrew word sukka and it means tabernacled. These are really awesome when you take the time to study them with an opened mind and heart, remember these are God’s Holy Days but some how most christians celebrate holiday’s which is very tragic.

  • Rapture happens when Jesus is at Earth, not that made up Catholic crap.

  • Rapture – lol……keep on waiting. This fictional fantasy man made delusion will never happen. Please grow up you poor indoctrinated sheep.

    • Just study the whole Bible! There will be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture even if there’s a lot of people that don’t believe it, and He’s at the door! Maranatha!!!

  • OK, if there is going to be a pre trib rapture, answer the 4 questions I have asked. Show us all in the Bible where the Bible actually states this.

    If you cannot show us the verses that prove those 4 points I have posted as false, then a pre trib rapture is impossible. HERE they are once more.>>>

    1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection which happens AFTER the END of the trib.

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will
    be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib.

    Now, there are more, but no one can show any scriptural evidence for any of those questions.

    NO ONE.
    They cannot because they do not exist in the Bible.

    SO, JC, and CameronK, and anyone else who believes in a pre trib rapture, ANSWER FROM THE BIBLE those 4 questions/statements. But you will NOT be able to do so.

    a bondslave in CHrist Jesus, DIrk

  • 1. There must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 and that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation. Where is it?

    Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about Jesus 2nd coming to earth with His saints AFTER the Tribulation. Notice that verse 31 says “from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Jesus is talking about gathering people in “heaven” not the earth. Jesus is answering the Apostles’ question of “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Jesus and His Saints come back to earth after the tribulation as verified in Rev. 19:11-16. In Matthew 24:30 it says, “then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven …” Not everyone sees the Rapture nor does Jesus touch earth, so this has to be talking about Jesus’ second coming to earth.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all! Where is it?

    I agree that the Church will see the Antichrist before the Rapture. But these verses do NOT say that the Church will remain on earth for any period of time after that. In fact, Jesus Christ and Antichrist may show up around the same time. Matthew 24: 42 says, “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.” Jesus Christ is NOT a thief or the one spoken of in verse 43. The direction from Lord in verse 42 changes with the “but” at the beginning of verse 43. These verses explain “resurrection.”
    John 5:29 KJV And shall come forth ; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 11:25 KJV Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead , yet shall he live : Acts 2:31 KJV He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    The dictionary explains “resurrection” as “to rise again.” The Bible explains it in John 5:29 as “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life: and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” So there are only 2 resurrections – one unto life and one unto damnation. Revelation 20:4 are adding up those who were resurrected unto life – “thrones (could be from the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 Apostles = 24 (Rev. 4:4) or Old Testament Saints, and Apostles and Church, and also Tribulation martyrs. The Bible here is not giving a time line, but declaring them to be “the first resurrection” in Rev. 20:5 – And it says in the same verse that “the dead lived not again until the thousand years were