How A Bible Believer Should Be Looking At This Weekend’s Blood Moon

So what does the Bible say about blood moons? Not much really, but where it mentions them it is very specific. In the book of the prophet Joel, he talks about a blood moon, but not the kind that today's commentators talk about. For you see Joel's "blood moon" is not a moon that turns an orangey-red glow. On the contrary, Joel's blood moon is the actual moon turning to actual blood. Think about that for a moment and let it sink in.
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The timeframe that Joel is seeing in his prophecy of the blood moon is the time of the Day of the Lord

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” Joel 2:31 (KJV)

All over the world, various Christian and Christian-like groups are gritting their teeth as they await the coming of the 4th blood moon this weekend. Many books have been written attempting to explain the “prophetic significance” of these red-colored moons and corresponding tetrads. But here at NTEB, we don’t base our eschatology on commentaries and books written by men, however well meaning they may be. We are Bible believers who believe the Bible (there’s a crazy concept for you).

Blood Moons 101 For Dummies: On April 15, 2014, there was a total lunar eclipse. It was the first of four consecutive total eclipses in a series, known as a tetrad; a second one took place on October 8, 2014, third one on April 4, 2015 and the remaining one will take place on September 28, 2015.

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CLICK FOR THE NTEB BIBLE DOCTRINE TEACHING LIBRARY

So what does the Bible say about blood moons? Not much really, but where it mentions them it is very specific. In the book of the prophet Joel, he talks about a blood moon, but not the kind that today’s commentators talk about. For you see Joel’s “blood moon” is not a moon that turns an orangey-red glow. On the contrary, Joel’s blood moon is the actual moon turning to actual blood. Think about that for a moment and let it sink in. And while you do, ponder on this as well.

The timeframe that Joel is seeing in his prophecy of the blood moon is the time of the Day of the Lord: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” Joel 2:31 (KJV). When does the Day of the Lord occur? It happens after the Rapture of the Church, at the end of the time of Jacob’s Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7 KJV), and at the Battle of Armageddon. So what that means is because the Rapture has not yet happened, the Great Tribulation cannot start, and we certainly won’t be seeing the Battle of Armageddon any time soon. Not unless you can jam all that in by this Saturday night!

Having said that, the Bible believing Christian is ready any day to either face their own death or be taken up in the Rapture. Could it be today? Could prophecy be fulfilled this weekend? Yes, it certainly could. But a better question is are you ready for what comes next? You better be. We will not give into scare tactics and fear-mongering brought on by Christian authors who are trying to sell more books.

Another place it talks about a blood moon is in Revelation 6:12: “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;” Now from the wording here it could be either actual blood or blood-colored, but since Joel’s view of the same day sees actual blood. I will view it in the same way as well. Acts 2:20 has Peter quoting from Joel and seeing actual blood as well:

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:” Acts 2:20 (KJV)

Now I know this is not nearly as exciting as whipping you up into a fever-pitch and being terrified awaiting a blood-colored moon this Saturday night, but it’s what the Bible teaches. I will close with this. The next event that Christians are waiting for is the Rapture of the Church. The Rapture and the Second Coming are two different events. We will not be here for the time of Jacob’s Trouble. But as far as the Battle of Armageddon goes, we indeed will witness that, and yes more than witness it, we will fight in it. Revelation 19 tells us how it will go for us in that Day:

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:11-14 (KJV)

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The Strange, Unfulfilled Doomsday Prophecy Of Acts Chapter 2

That’s the Day of the Lord from Heaven’s perspective. The “armies in Heaven” is the Church, that’s us, and part of our inheritance is that we get to participate in the Battle of Armageddon in our glorified, resurrection bodies. In that Day we will certainly see the Blood Moon of the Lord, we will ride right past it on white horses! And that’s how a Bible believer looks at the current blood moon debate. I think if anything might happen on the 28th, it could be the Rapture.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)

Keep your eye on the eastern sky this weekend!

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • laura

    God bless you! Truly significant times. According to scripture, I am watching for trib start. Watching for a “pre-trib rapture” may blind you to trib start. Looks as if all is happening to start tribulation now. If so, the sign of the “birthing of the manchild” follows manifestation of one world government/religion/economy… aka papal encyclical/Sustainable Development.

    So, thinking there will be a “pre-trib rapture” is causing people to fail to watch for trib to start!! WATCH AND PRAY PLEASE!! Birthing of manchild FOLLOWS trib start.

    Revelation 12Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. (TRIB START!!!) 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (ARISING OF CHURCH AFTER TRIB START/AS TRIB STARTS!! 1260 DAYS BEGIN!! WOMAN ON EARTH!!).

    • Skywatcher

      Hey, Laura!

      According to Scripture, none of us born again Christians should be here to witness any part of the Great Tribulation. As was explained on this site only a few days ago, there is NO scriptural proof for the Church of Jesus Christ to be going through ANY part of the G. Tribulation; we are removed (raptured)prior to its starting. That is NOT escapism theology; that’s the truth!

      We are now experiencing the birth pains, (contractions), getting prepared for the actual last big contraction which will not happen in our time! Dr. David Jeremiah (Turning Point), Dr. Jack VanImpe, etc. gives an excellent exposition of the last day’s prophecy as well.

      An excellent book on end times events and arguments for and against post-trib, pre-trib, mid-trib, etc. (eschatology) is “Things to Come” by Dwight Pentecost. It was one of my text books in Bible college, and he really knew his material, and backs it up with Scriptures. It can be bought on Ebay or Amazon for much less than what it is worth. It’s a gold nugget in my library!

      I hope this helps.

      • John

        Oh come now. What’s lacking is a single verse describing a pretrib rapture. The Lord never described such a thing. Pretrib needs to mangle words in Rev. 3:10, and hijack Rev. 4:1. It also has to say millions upon millions of believers in Rev. 5:9-11 are “represented” by 24 elders, because the saints are nowhere to be found worshipping around the throne.

        Pretrib is folly.

        • Elaine Coker

          Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
          Rev 3:10

          Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
          1 Thessalonians 4:17

          Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36

          The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be going on in Heaven while the 7 years of Israel’s trouble. That is where the “true” Church will be (in Heaven).

          The “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” is referred to by most people as the Tribulation, but GOD’s Holy Word calls those last 7 years the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. Jacob is Israel. GOD’s Holy Word says that GOD allowed 490 years of punishment to Israel because of their SINS of idle worship, etc. and because they did not accept HIM when HE came. When JESUS was killed, GOD stopped the clock at 483 years. GOD still has 7 more years to deal with Israel which is the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. Israel was under the LAW of Moses for that 483 years, so they will go back under the LAW and do sacrifices again during the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. GOD will rapture the Church (Grace) age before the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. This is in the Book of Daniel and has been expelled upon by some of the most brilliant men that has ever lived in commentaries and books. I will say it again GOD will end the Grace (Church) age before the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”.

          • Slamdunk

            Greetings sister Elaine,

            I want to share this with you because according to the pre trib view, Jesus will come THREE times:

            MAJOR BIBLE CONTRADICTION

            THE THREE COMINGS OF JESUS

            1. FIRST COMING – MINISTRY

            “The next day John saw Jesus COMING (“erchomai”) toward him and said, ‘Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29)

            2. SECOND COMING – PRE TRIB RAPTURE

            “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the COMING (“parousia”) of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.” (1 Thes. 4:15)

            Thayer’s definition of “parousia” (#3952) is, “presence, the coming, arrival, advent, the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

            3. THIRD COMING – END OF THE TRIBULATION

            “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING (“erchomai”) on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels….to gather His elect.” (Matt. 24:30,31)

            Thayer’s definition of “erchomai” (#2064) is, “to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning, to appear, make one’s appearance, come before the public.”

            So these are the three comings.

            But hold on! How can that be? The Bible says,

            “So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a SECOND TIME, apart from sin, for salvation.” (Heb. 9:28)

            A second time? How is this reconciled with the three comings? This has to be a major blow to the concept of Biblical inerrancy.

            No, of course not. Here’s the problem. According to the view that the church will be taken up BEFORE the tribulation (Daniel’s 70th week), there must be three comings as clearly shown. What is really happening here is that 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and Matt. 24:30,31 are not two separate comings, or stages of resurrection, but the joint rapture and second coming at the end of the tribulation. Jesus comes from heaven, picks up His bride, comes to earth, judges the nations and begins His millennial reign.

            Greetings sister Elaine,

            I want to share this with you because the pre trib view requires THREE comings of Jesus:

            1. FIRST COMING – MINISTRY

            “The next day John saw Jesus COMING (“erchomai”) toward him and said, ‘Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29)

            2. SECOND COMING – PRE TRIB RAPTURE

            “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the COMING (“parousia”) of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.” (1 Thes. 4:15)

            Thayer’s definition of “parousia” (#3952) is, “presence, the coming, arrival, advent, the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

            3. THIRD COMING – END OF THE TRIBULATION

            “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING (“erchomai”) on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels….to gather His elect.” (Matt. 24:30,31)

            Thayer’s definition of “erchomai” (#2064) is, “to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning, to appear, make one’s appearance, come before the public.”

            So these are the three comings.

            But how can that be? The Bible says,

            “So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a SECOND TIME, apart from sin, for salvation.” (Heb. 9:28)

            A second time? How is this reconciled with the three comings? It can’t be.

            What is really happening here is that 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and Matt. 24:30,31 are not two separate comings, or stages of resurrection, but the joint rapture and second coming at the end of the tribulation. Jesus comes from heaven, picks up His bride, comes to earth, judges the nations and begins His millennial reign.

            Nowhere does any rapture verse say that the saints are taken up into heaven.

            Lord Bless

          • Robert Veklotz

            Don’t forget First Corinthians 15:51-55.

        • Slamdunk

          Yes indeed, brother John. Jesus prayed to the Father that He not take the church out of the world (John 17:15,20). If the church goes up pre trib, Jesus will have some words with the Father:) But they are ONE and agree on everything.

          Nowhere does scripture say the saints will be taken up to heaven, PRE OR POST TRIB RAPTURE. All the action happens in the lower atmosphere, in the clouds, and then moves down to earth (1 Thes. 4:15-17, Rev. 19:11-16).

          Lord bless

          • Elaine Coker

            The verses that you have referred to here John 17:15,20 JESUS is talking about the Diciples, according to the Matthew Henry explanation and is not referring to the Church. In order to get the complete meaning of these verses, one should read the entire Chapter, rather than taking verses out of context.

          • Slamdunk

            Greetings sister,

            If you look at John 17:20, it also says it applies to those who will believe. That would include the church today.

          • Julie

            I agree with you. This debate is enormous and didn’t exist prior to Darby and Scofield. It was non-existent. Spurgeon even rebukes these men’s teachings. I don’t think people should write so absolutely on such topics. This is not something people should say with all confidence and matter of factly, that, “Believers will not be here during tribulation.”

          • Skywatcher

            Hey, Slamdunk!

            I don’t know who you’ve been listening to or what perversion of the bible you’ve been reading, but mine strongly tells me we WILL NOT be here for any part of the G. Trib.

            For starters, you and several others on this site have overlooked John 14: 3 where Christ promises to come to RECEIVE us unto Himself. That means we are going to Him; Acts 1 tells us that He is returning in the same manner in which He left (in a cloud). What part of rapture (catching up) do you not see in this passage? this isn’t the first time a rapture has happened in the Bible; I’m sure God Almighty is quite capable of pulling another one off prior to the G. Trib. After all, He has to be faithful to His Word! OHHHH! There’s a loaded statement!

            Why don’t you email me for the Biblical evidences all in one package that show it is theologically IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to enter into or to go through the G. Tribulation! There are 28 biblical reasons why this is NOT possible! One being: it would make Christ’s work on the cross of NO EFFECT! We’d have to work to earn our salvation if we had to go through the G. Trib.

            You want the truth? Please email me and have your questions settled once and for all: scotianprince@eastlink.ca I send the document and then dump your email request. I don’t keep email!

            We are wasting very valuable time that could be used to witness to others who need to hear the glorious news of the gospel for the very first time! We’re beating a dead horse! I’ve learned a long time ago, that if I’m riding a dead horse for ten years it;s time to get off! It will get you nowhere! This applies to all of ya, that are too scared to see the evidence I’m offering for free! After reading most of the comments here, I’m convinced that a few of you just like to hear yourselves talk. That’s not edifying or bearing lambs for the Master…Just sayin’…stay on your dead horse or get off and walk; at least do something constructive for the Kingdom. Time is a’wastin’ and precious souls are going into a lost eternity. Some poor soul next door needs a helping hand and we’re placating ourselves in this futile manner!

            Don’t worry! Christ will come when He sees the time is right and not a moment too soon! If He wanted to, He could snatch us away into the clouds and we could meet Him there sitting in a good old Chevrolet with dual exhaust! Nonetheless, we will still meet Him “in the clouds of the air” in His time! What are we doing for Him today? Bickering and debating? Several on this site are modern day Pharisees (Pre-trib)and Sadducees (Post-trib), staining at gnats and swallowing camels! For Him, the debate was settled on the cross! His Word should be more than enough to get us to where we are going and we won’t be a second late for the appointment! Enjoy the G. Trib! I’ll greet you when finally you get there! I’ll save you a place at the table…that is if you’ve earned your way out of it. Sounds like a Protestant version of the R.C. purgatory doesn’t it? Blessings!

          • John

            Skywatcher,

            Is that part of your 28 page paper? *yawn*

            Regarding your insinuation that the problem with posttribbers is that we’re utilizing a perverted translation, you really ought to efucate yourself before you say anything else ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that the KJV translators were posttibulationalists, which is why the linked Matt. 24:29-31 with 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52-54 in their cross-references:

            http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-24_Original-1611-KJV/

            Regarding John 14:1-3, that’s classic pretrib hypocrisy. Complaining that Matt. 24 isn’t to the church, because of Jewish references, yet trying to plant a flag on John 14, DESPITE it being a picture of the Jewish wedding model. And who was the Lord speaking to? The same audience as that of Matt. 24 and 25: His apostles.

            Do you have selective reading? In Acts 1, the Lord went from Earth-to-Heaven on a cloud. He’s not coming from Heaven-to-sky, therefore, and doing a u-turn. We meet Him in the air on His way down, in our glorified bodies, while He destroys His enemies.

            By the way, are you a conspiracy theorist? No one is going to throw you in prison for commenting on a closed group. No one will be able to see your comments. Furthermore, you can create an alias (“John Darby” would be a good one for you). The name of the group is “Three views on the rapture”. There are over 6,000 members, so I’m sure your 28 page paper would attract attention from those who have a desire to discuss it. I have a young family, so I’m not keen on maintaining the group, yet having private email discussions. That would occupy way too much time, with only the two of us garnering any type of edification.

            What is your name, by the way?

            John

        • AndrewA

          John.

          If I was to go by the standard you have presented their is no evidence for a post-trib rapture ether.

          Only that Jesus comes at the end with angels and kills all the wicked. Then the old saints and those killed in the tribulation are raised.

          (Now I know their is more but after reading all your posts you have not cited those verses that speak of more. Nor have you given scripture that specifically places a dead in Christ and living in Chirst being changed in the blink of the eye and rising to join Jesus forever at any point in the timeline of Jesus’ 2nd coming.

          Could you please actually take time to at least state what verse you believe is the Bible showing when that specific event happens.)

          • John

            Brother Andrew,

            1 Corinthians 15:54- “So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.”

            Few believers know what Paul was quoting:

            Isaiah 25:8- “He will SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.”

            When does Isaiah describe this occurring? After the “heavenly signs”:

            Isaiah 13:10- “For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.”

            Isaiah 24:23- “Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”

            When does the Lord say the heavenly signs occur? “After the tribulation of those days”:

            Matthew 24:29- “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

            And when does the “day of the Lord” occur? After the heavenly signs:

            Acts 2:20- “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:”

            So Paul inextricably links the resurrection/rapture to the post-trib “day of the Lord”.

            One resurrection. One rapture. At His second coming.

            Some ask who would “populate the millennium” in a posttrib rapture scenario. Scripture answers that question, in a verse that many seemingly don’t even know exists:

            Zechariah 14:16- “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is LEFT of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”

          • AndrewA

            John

            thank you for taking the time to answer. I now have a good idea of the timeline you are talking about.

            If I have anymore questions for you I will ask them at a later time.

          • Slamdunk

            Hello brother Andrew,

            The resurrection of the dead will occur on the “last day” (John 6:40), at the “last trumpet” (1 Cor. 15:52), at the “last time” (1 Pet. 1:5), at the “end of the age” (Dan. 12:13).

            Does scripture show anywhere that “last,” respecting the rapture, applies it to pre trib? The definition of “last” (eschatos) means, “outermost, extreme, last in time or place.” (Thayer’s Lexicon #2078)

            Lord bless

        • Allen

          If you want to witness the Tribulation r God’s wrath you are free to do so. But, are you able to stand the consequences of left behind?God’s children will not experience God;s wrath. Why we need a Savior if we can survive on the tribulation?It doesn’t make sense at all.Christian are waiting for the blessed hope & not for the false hope.Christina are waiting for Jesus & not for the Anti-Christ.

        • carrierwave

          Makes more sense than “PEACE AND SAFTEY” at the battle of Armageddon. LOL.

          • John

            Actually, no, it doesn’t.

            You can try and cherry-pick all you want, but the facts remain.

            Are members of ISIS and Boko haram marrying and giving in marriage? Yes, even with Christian women they’ve kidnapped. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’re being pursued by U.S. or other military forces. That’s the state of wickedness.

            At the 6th vial, the wicked are being deceived by the unholy triad, and we see just how diabolical that deception is:

            Revelation 16:13-14: “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

            So they’re being gathered to wage war against Jerusalem, and to “the battle of that great day of God almighty”, but they don’t realize what’s coming until the cosmic lights go out, and the Lord appears.

            This is the same vial in which the Lord is telling us to “watch” for His coming like a “thief”:

            Revelation 16:15- “Behold, I come as a THIEF. Blessed is he that WATCHETH, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

    • Mary

      The woman is Israel. The tribulation is known as the time of Jacobs trouble. God is done with the church and we are taken home to be the bride of Christ. John 14:2″In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3″If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.… Revelation 3:10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth The Lord turns his attention back to Israel his chosen people.Regarding the timing of the Great Tribulation, Jesus said
      “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” (Mtt. Mat. 24:15-22)

      Jesus referred to this Daniel Dan. 9:27 “overspreading of abominations” in Matthew Mat. 24:15. Then He said, “then shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Mtt. Mat. 24:21), thereby indicating that the Great Tribulation will begin when the overspreading of abominations of Daniel Dan. 9:27 occurs. Since the Great Tribulation will begin when the overspreading of abominations occurs in the middle of the 70th week, we can conclude that the Great Tribulation will begin in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, or after the first three and one-half years of that seven-year period have transpired.4
      Notice Jesus says, “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” and “pray that your flight may not be . . . on the Sabbath.” There is an explicit Jewish element to this entire passage. This is because the events are related to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble described by Jeremiah:
      ‘For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah. For thus says the LORD: ‘We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.’ (Jer. Jer. 30:3-7)

      • John

        John 14:1-3 was written to the same audience as Matt. 24 and 25: His apostles. So if Matt. 24 is only to “Israel”, then so is John 14:1-3. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

        And Matt. 24 is too Jewish because of words like “Judea” and “Sabbath”, but the JEWISH wedding model isn’t too Jewish for you? And the Lord telling us that He will give overcomers “hidden manna” (Rev. 2:7)? Manna isn’t too “Jewish” for you either?

        Paul said that Gentile believers (wild branches) are grafted in ALONGSIDE the natural branches (Jewish believers). Some of the branches were broken off due to unbelief, but can be grafted in again, and wild branches removed if not careful. So there is no rapture of wild branches before the olive tree is complete with it’s full host of natural branches.

        Paul said that anyone of faith are the CHILDREN of Abraham (Galatians 3:7). That we are his “seed”, and fellow heirs to the promises (Gal. 3:29). Whatever Abraham was promised, we’re promised. And “Jacob’s trouble” is therefore our trouble too. No “get-out-of-tribulation-free” care like David Jeremiah or JVI would have you think. Paul said that we were once without Christ, but are now drawn nigh to the “commonwealth of Israel”:

        Ephesians 2:12-13: “That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of ISRAEL, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

        Did you get that? He’s equating the “commonwealth of Israel” to being “in Christ Jesus”. We are grafted in with the natural branches of ISRAEL when we follow Christ.

        Scripture describes Israel as the future bride (yes, again). Read Hosea as well.

        Isaiah 62:4-5: Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a VIRGIN, so shall thy sons marry thee:
        and as the BRIDEGROOM rejoiceth over the BRIDE, so shall thy God rejoice over THEE.”

        Sorry to have to tell you this, but we don’t replace Israel as the bride. Which is why the wedding announcement isn’t until mere moments before the Lord’s POSTTRIB second coming (Rev. 19:7-14):

        Revelation 19:7- “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.”

        “is come”. That’s second aortist active indicative. It’s about to happen. Yet what’s the VERY next scene? The Lord leaving Heaven. Even a child knows that’s when the Lord is coming to rescue His bride. An announcement, followed by His return. There is neither hide nor hair of any bride, wedding, or marriage supper in Revelation 7 years prior to Rev. 19:7. That’s only in the false teachings of the likes of David Jeremiah and JVI.

        And who are the ONLY ones the Lord described returning with Him at His second coming? His angels:

        Matthew 16:27- “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his ANGELS; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

        Matthew 25:31- “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the HOLY ANGELS with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

        Mark 8:38- “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the HOLY ANGELS.”

        Luke 9:26- “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the HOLY ANGELS.”

        No bride emerging out of Heaven at the Lord’s second coming.

        Paul reiterated this, in the ONLY set of verses in which he SPECIFICALLY describes who returns with the Lord from Heaven:

        2 Thessalonians 1:7-8: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from HEAVEN with his mighty ANGELS, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

        As for your citing of Rev. 3:10, Several popular teachers highlight the fact that “from” is the Greek “ek”. What I’ve found, however, is that “keep” (the Greek “tereo”) is equally important, and here’s why: The ONLY other place we find those two words together in the entire NT is in John 17:15, when the Lord is praying specifically that we NOT be taken out of the world, but instead protected while we’re here:

        John 17:15- “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest KEEP (“tereo”) them from (“ek”) the evil.”

        Again, the Lord is praying specifically that we NOT be taken out of the world. And He’s not just praying for His apostles:

        John 17:20- “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”

        So He contrasts two options:

        1)That we be taken out of the world (which He prays does NOT happen).

        2)That we be “kept from” the evil WHILE WE’RE HERE (which He prays DOES happen).

        He’s praying for all believers. So what are the similarities between John 17:15 and Revelation 3:10? Same speaker (the Lord). Same author (John). Same words (tereo ek). So the Lord is not saying that He’s taking us out of the world in Revelation 3:10.

        For 1,800 years before John Darby, Christendom believed and taught a posttrib rapture? Why? Because the Lord never described coming before the trib.

        • Elaine Coker

          John 17:15 JESUS is speaking of HIS Diciples, not the Church.
          When you read the entire chapter you can plainly see that HE is Praying about HIS Diciples. Also, the Matthew Henry explanation also confirms that JESUS is referring to HIS Diciples.

          • Slamdunk

            Greetings sister Elaine,

            But if you look at verse 17:20 you see that it also applies to those

        • carrierwave

          The “armies” coming with Jesus cannot possibly be “ANGELS”. They are called “CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL” a description given ONLY to church age believers and not to “angels”. Revelation 17:14 These are “church age saints” returning with Jesus, period. That is not saying angels aren’t attending this military array with the saints, for that seems to be the case. But you said:

          “Paul reiterated this, in the ONLY set of verses in which he SPECIFICALLY describes who returns with the Lord from Heaven:”

          FAIL! (Revelation 17:14)

          Note they are arrayed and dressed in the same “white and CLEAN linen” as the “wife” of the Lamb wears which is the “righteousness OF SAINTS” in Revelation 19:7-8. Another fact you have missed is that the “Lamb’s wife” (a consumated union) she is NOT called a “bride” here because the union has ALREADY taken place, because “His wife, HATH made herself ready.” That is not possible if the “church” is still on earth fleeing from the anti-christ, waiting for Jesus come to rescue them and be rewarded. IMPOSSIBLE. Revelation 19:1 finds a “great voice of MUCH PEOPLE IN HEAVEN” before the wedding and 2nd coming. That is not possible unless the rapture brought them there!

          So-called “christendom” for “1800 years” has been filled with heretics and false teachers over these centuries. That’s a old, wornout argument and is nothing but the “traditions of men. The truth of the rapture is not based on what some heretics said prior to 1830. It rises or falls on Biblical truth ALONE.

          • John

            You said: “The ‘armies’ coming with Jesus cannot possibly be ‘ANGELS’.”

            Now that’s a desperate, defiant statement. I showed that the Lord NEVER described returning from Heaven with anyone other than His angels. You’d rather thumb your nose at His words than accept them, because your ears are itchy.

            You said: “They are called ‘CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL’ a description given ONLY to church age believers and not to ‘angels’.”

            Is that right?

            1 Timothy 5:21- “I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT ANGELS, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.”

            I don’t know if you know anything about Greek, but that word “elect” is the Greek “eklektos”, and is the very same word used in Rev. 17:14. So the angels are indeed “chosen”.

            You said: “Revelation 17:14 These are ‘church age saints’ returning with Jesus, period. That is not saying angels aren’t attending this military array with the saints, for that seems to be the case.”

            See above. You would have a newlywed bride become “GI Jane”.

            Regarding my quote of 2 Thess 1:7, you said: “FAIL! (Revelation 17:14)”

            You thumb your nose at Paul as well. I’m not surprised. Itchy ears and all.

            You said: “Note they are arrayed and dressed in the same ‘white and CLEAN linen’ as the ‘wife’ of the Lamb wears which is the ‘righteousness OF SAINTS’ in Revelation 19:7-8.”

            This is where that pesky Greek becomes an issue again for you.

            Revelation 19:8- “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in FINE LINEN, CLEAN AND WHITE: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

            Revelation 19:14- “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN.”

            First of all, angels also wear white:

            Revelation 15:6- “And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in PURE AND WHITE LINEN, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.”

            Secondly, for all of the hullabaloo about the similarities between Revelation 19:8 and verse 14, in the Greek, different words are being used:

            Revelation 19:8- “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen (“byssinos”), clean (“katharos”) and white (“lampros”): for the fine linen (“byssinos”) is the righteousness of saints.”

            Revelation 19:14- “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen (“byssinos”), white (“leukos”) and clean (“katharos”).”

            And again, What are the angels wearing?

            Revelation 15:6- “And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure (“katharos”) and white (“lampros”) linen (“linon”), and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.”

            So both the angels of Revelation 15:6 as well as the bride of Revelation 19:8 are wearing “katharos kai lampros”, whereas the “armies” of Revelation 19:14 are wearing “leukos kai katharos”. So attire doesn’t decide who the armies are; the Lord decides.

            You said: “Another fact you have missed is that the ‘Lamb’s wife’ (a consumated union) she is NOT called a ‘bride’ here because the union has ALREADY taken place, because ‘His wife, HATH made herself ready.’That is not possible if the ‘church’ is still on earth fleeing from the anti-christ, waiting for Jesus come to rescue them and be rewarded. IMPOSSIBLE.”

            You REALLY need to buy a concordance. Maybe you don’t know anything about Greek or Latin word roots, but I do. It’s something I studied in college. You see, what Rev. 19:7 renders “wife” in English is the Greek “gynē”. It’s where we get the word “gynecology”, and simply means bride”, “wife”, or “woman”:

            γυνή
            Transliteration: gynē
            Pronunciation: gü-nā’
            Part of Speech: feminine noun
            Root Word (Etymology): probably from the base of G1096
            Outline of Biblical Usage:
            a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
            a wife
            of a betrothed woman
            KJV Translation Count:
            221 Total women 129, wife 92

            That’s why Rev. 21 uses “wife” and “bride” interchangeably:

            Revelation 21:9- “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the BRIDE, the Lamb’s WIFE.”

            But I guess you already knew that. FAIL!

            You said: “Revelation 19:1 finds a ‘great voice of MUCH PEOPLE IN HEAVEN’ before the wedding and 2nd coming. That is not possible unless the rapture brought them there!”

            That’s actually another erroneous conclusion on your part.

            There aren’t people in Heaven in Rev. 19. The Greek word is “ochlos”. It means “multitude”:

            mul·ti·tude
            ˈməltəˌt(y)o͞od/
            noun
            a large number.
            “a multitude of medical conditions are due to being overweight”
            synonyms: a lot, a great/large number, a great/large quantity, a host, a horde, a mass, a swarm, an abundance, a profusion; More
            large numbers of people.
            “the multitudes using the roads”
            a large gathering of people.
            noun: the multitude
            “Father Peter addressed the multitude”

            You’ve taken one translation and run with it, but there is a reason so many translations don’t render it as “people”:

            American Standard Version
            19:1 After these things I heard as it were a great voice of a great MULTITUDE in heaven, saying, Hallelujah; Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God:

            Darby’s English Translation
            19:1 After these things I heard as a loud voice of a great MULTITUDE in the heaven, saying, Hallelujah: the salvation and the glory and the power of our God:

            Weymouth New Testament
            19:1 After this I seemed to hear the far-echoing voices of a great MULTITUDE in Heaven, who said, ‘Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God.

            World English Bible
            19:1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great MULTITUDE in heaven, saying, ‘Hallelujah! Salvation, glory, and power belong to our God:

            Young’s Literal Translation
            19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of a great MULTITUDE in the heaven, saying, ‘Alleluia! the salvation, and the glory, and the honour, and the power, is to the Lord our God;

            There are a multitude of stars in the sky. Surely you don’t think those bright, twinkling things are people.

            By the way, in Rev. 19:6, even the KJV renders that SAME “ochlos” as “multitude”:

            Revelation 19:6- “And I heard as it were the voice of a great MULTITUDE, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.”

            And who are they singing about?

            Revelation 19:7-8: “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made HERSELF ready. And to HER was granted that SHE should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

            Did you catch that? They’re singing about the “wife”/”bride” (Gk. “gynē”) in 3rd person singular. If the “multitude” of Revelation 19 were believers, they’d be singing about THEMSELVES (in 1st person plural).

            So there is a wedding announcement in Rev. 19:7, saying that “the marriage of the Lamb is come” (second aortist active indicative). It’s about to happen. Yet what’s the VERY next scene? The Lord leaving Heaven with His armies. Not His bride. His armies. This isn’t rocket science. Even a child knows that wedding announcements come BEFORE the wedding…in EVERY culture. So if a verse says that the bride has made herself ready, and the marriage of the Lamb has come, yet the VERY next scene is the Lord leaving Heaven with His ARMIES, then that’s when the Lord is coming to rescue His bride, and destroy her persecutors.

        • Slamdunk

          Hello John,

          “John 14:1-3 was written to the same audience as Matt. 24 and 25: His apostles. So if Matt. 24 is only to “Israel”, then so is John 14:1-3. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”

          Does this mean that any time Jesus was speaking to His disciples or Apostles it means it has no application to the church jtoday?

          Lord bless

        • carrierwave

          1 Thessalonians 3:13 Jude 1:14. Jesus comes “WITH HIS SAINTS”.

          Those futile attempts to keep “saints” out of heaven prior to Revelation 19:11 gets another, FAIL!

          Rev. 19:1 says there are “much people IN HEAVEN” at that point. Lol!

          Here’s another:

          In reference to Rev. 19:7 You said:

          “Yet what’s the VERY next scene? The Lord leaving Heaven.”

          FALSE!: That is not the “VERY NEXT SCENE”. (And I think you know it, but you would rather skip it.) YOU SKIPPED 3 verses. You have proved yourself to be contextually illiterate.

          First, verse 19:7 states the Lamb’s wife HATH MADE herself ready. Hold it! How could it be said HERE, the Lamb’s wife “HATH” past tense “MADE” herself ready? She’s not even in heaven yet. According to you the, “bride” is still persecuted, bloodied, and being killed on earth and needs to be rescued first! CONTEXT! She is not ready, according to You, JOHN. CONTEXT!

          FOLLOW THE CONTEXT, John! Her clothing? “Fine linen, clean and white”. Same clothing as worn by the riders on white horse. “FINE LINEN, CLEAN AND WHITE” (Identical!)

          Verse 8 (which you skipped) White,”FINE LINEN” is the “RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS”. Note it says “FINE LINEN” that is white and clean is for the “SAINT’S RIGHTEOUSNESS”. SAME CLOTHING AS THE RIDERS ARE WEARING! “Clean White FINE LINEN”–CONTEXT, John!

          SPECIAL NOTE: The angel’s attire in Revelation 15:6 IS NOT THE SAME. The Greek word here is “λίνον”, “flax” (STRONGS G3043) translated “pure, white linen”. Now look at Rev. 19:8 and 19:14.

          THE LAMB’S WIFE’S attire,(vs 8) IN THE GREEK and the HORSE RIDER’S attire,(vs 14) IN GREEK are BOTH: “βύσσινος” Both are THE SAME GREEK WORD! Clearly it is NOT the same Greek word used in Rev. 15:6 for angel’s attire. “λίνον”,

          But deeper than that!– “βύσσινος” has a HEBREW ORIGIN: “בּוּץ”

          pronounced “boots” which means “to bleach” or MAKE white. (STRONG’S H948) That fully implies something that had to be “CLEANED” and “MADE WHITE” or “bleached”. Now, that does not fit “angels” attire. THEY were never sinners, and their garments never needed “bleaching”!

          So, away with your false misrepresentations of who the “riders” on white horses following Jesus are. Their attire is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from angel’s attire, and can only be the LAMB’S WIFE the “church” who’s clothing matches those riding on the white horses! THIS ALSO PROVES THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE.

          • John

            *tap, tap, tap*

            Is this thing on?

            You argued that angels don’t ride horses. I argued that the Lord said His angels return with Him at His second coming, and NEVER described any bride emerging out of Heaven with Him. You, of course, don’t really care what the Lord said. I guess it’s all an asterix.

            So if the Lord said that the angels return with Him, and Rev. 19:14 says the armies are riding horses, then at the least, angels are part of the armies, and must also be riding horses. I want to get past this particular point.

            Do you concede that the angels must also be riding horses?

          • John

            By the way, you said:

            “But deeper than that!– “βύσσινος” has a HEBREW ORIGIN: “בּוּץ”

            pronounced “boots” which means “to bleach” or MAKE white. (STRONG’S H948) That fully implies something that had to be “CLEANED” and “MADE WHITE” or “bleached”. Now, that does not fit “angels” attire. THEY were never sinners, and their garments never needed “bleaching”!”

            I guess in your zeal, you failed to realize:

            1)That word is also being used to describe Babylon:

            Revelation 18:16
            And saying,
            Alas, alas, that great city,
            that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet,
            and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

            2)The multitude of Rev. 7 are only wearing white robes. No fine linen.

            They had a dress change?

          • MRH

            So, away with your false misrepresentations of who the “riders” on white horses following Jesus are. Their attire is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from angel’s attire, and can only be the LAMB’S WIFE the “church” who’s clothing matches those riding on the white horses!

            @carrierwave: You really don’t think that Jesus is coming back alone do you? 😉

            Mat 24:30 KJV – And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

            2Th 1:7-10 KJV – And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

            Jde 1:14-15 KJV – And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

            Rev 1:7 KJV – Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

            All above scripture concerns same post tribulation event, which occurs after the holy signs of the wrath. The armies of heaven include all the saints (holy ones); holy angels, OT (Jews, etc), NT (church, martyrs). The second coming is a two stage event, beginning with rapture.

            P.S. The problem is dividing tribulation from wrath. Matt 24 and Luke 21 hold the key, but it takes careful interpretation. Consider the heaven and earth signs.. neither are noted in the tribulation. These events occur after tribulation which is of the wrath. The saints are delivered at the climax of tribulation before the end of the world signs.

          • carrierwave

            You got the wrong color, John, lol!!– you ARE contextually illiterate.

            You have a hard time with the KJV when reading complete sentences don’t you. That’s right, Why don’t you try reading the whole verse instead of piece-mealing words out for your own convenience then dropping the rest of GOD’s WORDS in the verse like discarded gum wrappers!

            “FINE LINEN” of Revelation 19:8 and vs. 14 is “WHITE” John, (Hebrew root, “bleached” or “made white“) for the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS. Here, let me help you John; here’s the scripture address, but read it slowly John–Rev. 19:8. Note: The words “fine linen” refer to “fine linen, Clean and WHITE” earlier in that SAME VERSE. (wow!) That’s how you read and understand God’s Word contextually John. Did I go too fast for you?? I’m sorry.

            NOW let’s read Revelation 18:16 (slowly, John):

            “And saying Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen and PURPLE and SCARLET and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls.”

            Since you pride yourself so much about your studious skills, John, with a great handle on the “Greek”, take your Englishman’s Greek New Testament and look up Revelation 18:16. Find “fine linen” (Greek, βύσσινον ) Now find “purple” (Greek, πορφυροῦν ) and now find the word “scarlet” (Greek, κόκκινον ) .

            “Fine linen” is the NOUN; but “purple” and “scarlet” are adjectives describing the “fine linen”. We know this by the SAME Greek ENDING on both noun and adjectives. “ν”. “nu” or new. The Greek makes no mistake which noun the adjectives are are describing.

            So, again, FAIL. JOHN GOT THE WRONG COLOR. Babylon’s attire is “fine linen” PURPLE and SCARLET. The “fine linen” of the SAINTS and HORSE RIDERS is “CLEAN AND WHITE“. You can find the same rule Noun/adjective Greek endings in Revelation 19:8 and 14 with “fine linen” as CLEAN and WHITE. “Ye do err not knowing the scriptures.”

          • John

            Perhaps you forgot what you wrote. Here, let me remind you, because you said “byssinos” means “bleached white”, with sin removed:

            But deeper than that!– “βύσσινος” has a HEBREW ORIGIN: “בּוּץ”

            pronounced “boots” which means “to bleach” or MAKE white. (STRONG’S H948) That fully implies something that had to be “CLEANED” and “MADE WHITE” or “bleached”. Now, that does not fit “angels” attire. THEY were never sinners, and their garments never needed “bleaching”!

            See someone about the selective dementia.

            Again, Rev. 7 describes the multitude as wearing white robes, so attire doesn’t determine who returns with the Lord; the Lord decides. So for you to claim that “clean white linen” doesn’t match up well enough with Rev. 19:14, I’ve got the most shocking news in the world for you: neither does “white robes”.

    • Elaine Coker

      The “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” which people refer to as the Tribulation is for the Jews. It is not for the Church. The Church will be “caught up” or “raptured” prior to the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. According to GOD’s Holy Word, 490 years were allotted, by GOD as punishment to Israel because of their SINS and because they did not accept HIM when HE came. When JESUS CHRIST was killed,HE stopped the clock of HIS dealings with Israel at 483 years, so there are 7 more years that GOD has to deal with them to bring in HIS judgment and to setup HIS Kingdom. That 7 years is where we get the 7 years of “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. Jacob is Israel. Since Israel was under the Law for that 483 years, not Grace, GOD will pick up with them where HE left off. So the last 7 years the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” cannot start until the Grace age (Church age) is finished.
      This is all in the Book of Daniel. The book of Daniel is not easy to understand but there are great commentaries out there that explain it perfectly. Even if we are wrong about the Pre-Trib which we are not, in no way should that cause us to be deceived about the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. GOD’s HOly Word doesn’t refer to a 7 year Tribulation; It refers to the “Time Of Jacob’s Trouble”. I know the Bible speaks of Tribulation, but it is not talking about the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. It is talking about Tribulation in general.

    • Slamdunk

      Right on, sister Laura. Daniel’s 70th week begins the final seven years when antichrist confirms the covenant (Dan. 9:27) Great trib alf way into the seven years (week). Church should be preparing for the kingdom of antichrist. No rapture until Christ comes at the end of the trib. Imminency will apply just before He comes (Luke 21:28), AFTER the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29). The church is napping and needs to wake up to this reality.

      Lord bless

      • RobiMac

        Slamdunk, the Lord is not coming for a beaten and bloody bride.

        • Slamdunk

          True, brother Robimac,

          Jesus will receive a bride that is blameless and spotless, made that way through suffering and tribulation:

          “So they departed from the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.” (Acts 5:41)

          “Tribulation produces perseverance, and perseverance character, and character hope.” (Rom. 5:3)

          “Through much tribulation we must enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Acts 14:22)

          “That no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.” (1 Thes. 3:3)

          “Arm yourselves with the sufferings of Christ.” (1 Pet. 4:1)

          Without tribulation, there can be no refining or purifying. The dross only comes out through the fiery trials (1 Pet. 4:12) of persecutions, suffering, tribulation, etc. It goes with the new born territory.

          No one wants to suffer, but we must not think we will be exempted from the tribulation. Blessed are those who persevere and remain faithful under tribulation.

          Lord bless

      • Elaine Coker

        If JESUS does not come back for HIS church until the end of Tribulation and HE destroys all the non-believers and then takes the believers to Heaven, who will be left to populate the Earth for the 1000 year Kingdom.

        • Slamdunk

          Hi Elaine,

          I think your premise is wrong. Nowhere does it say that the saints will be taken up into heaven after the tribulaton, but will remain on earth for the millennial reign of Christ. The saints will be in their glorified bodies for the millennium. So who will repopulate the earth?

          “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors, whom the Lord calls.” (Joel 2:32)

          “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations…where they will proclaim my glory.” (Isa. 66:19)

          Also, Paul speaks of the Jewish remnant who will be saved (Rom. 11:5). They survive the tribulation and are probably those whom the Lord protected and nourished in the wilderness (Rev. 12:14,Dan. 12:1).

          Lord bless

    • Jeffrey

      Laura, if that is the case explain Rev 3:10…..

      Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

      Sounds like a Pre-Rapture to me….

      “I WILL KEEP YOU FROM ***THE HOUR OF TRAIL*** THAT IS GOING TO COME ON THE WHOLE WORLD TO ***TEST*** THE ***INHABITANTS*** OF THE EARTH…

      • John

        For the sake of argument, I’m going to agree that Rev. 3:10 is referring to a future trib.

        Revelation 3:10- “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

        Several popular teachers highlight the fact that “from” is the Greek “ek”. What I’ve found, however, is that “keep” (the Greek “tereo”) is equally important, and here’s why: The ONLY other place we find those two words together in the entire NT is in John 17:15, when the Lord is praying specifically that we NOT be taken out of the world, but instead protected while we’re here:

        John 17:15- “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest KEEP (“tereo”) them from (“ek”) the evil.”

        Again, the Lord is praying specifically that we NOT be taken out of the world. And He’s not just praying for His apostles:

        John 17:20- “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”

        So He contrasts two options:

        1)That we be taken out of the world (which He prays does NOT happen).

        2)That we be “kept from” the evil WHILE WE’RE HERE (which He prays DOES happen).

        He’s praying for all believers. So what are the similarities between John 17:15 and Revelation 3:10? Same speaker (the Lord). Same author (John). Same words (tereo ek). So the Lord is not saying that He’s taking us out of the world in Revelation 3:10.

        For 1,800 years before John Darby, Christendom believed and taught a posttrib rapture? Why? Because the Lord never described coming before the trib. Here are but a few quotes regarding Rev. 3:10, before modern teachers hacked it to pieces:

        John Wycliffe (1320-1384): “Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us IN the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii” (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155).

        Matthew Henry (1662-1714): “Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ IN an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]” (Commentary, VI, p. 1134).

        John Newton (1725-1807): “‘Fear not temptation’s fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past'” (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).

        Albert Barnes (1798-1870): “…he will keep them IN the future trials that shall come upon the world [Revelation 3:10]” (Notes on the New Testament, p. 94).

        R. C. Trench (1807-1886): “…the Philadelphian CHURCH…to be kept IN temptation, NOT to be exempted from temptation…” (Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-184).

        Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910): “He will keep us IN THE MIDST OF, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]” (The Epistles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).

        M. R. Vincent (1834-1922): “The preposition [‘from’] implies, NOT a keeping from temptation, but a keeping IN temptation [Revelation 3:10]…” (Word Studies…, p. 466).

        H. Grattan Guinness (1835-1910): “…the Church is ON EARTH during the action of the Apocalypse…” (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136).

        H. B. Swete (1835-1917): “The promise [of Revelation 3:10], as Bede says, is ‘not indeed of your being immune from adversity, but of not being overcome by it'” (The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 56).

        I. T. Beckwith (1843-1936): “The Philadelphians…are promised that they shall be carried in safety THROUGH the great trial [Revelation 3:10], they shall not fall” (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484).

        By the way, to be “kept from” harm doesn’t necessarily mean to be kept from physical harm. Why would I say that? Because the Lord used those words in John 17:15, yet His apostles ended up being martyred (except for John), so He must have been speaking of SPIRITUAL fortitude in the face of evil, persecution, TEMPTATION (which is actually the word that Rev. 3:10 uses), etc.

        Also, being that many scholars take Rev, 2 and 3 to be double prophecy (meaning that the Lord was speaking to 7 literal churches at that time, as well as the universal church over the next couple thousand years), when was there a 1st or 2nd century rapture?

        To clarify my point, if “keep from” meant a rapture, it would have also meant a rapture in the 1st/2nd century (perhaps from Roman persecution), for it to be a true double prophecy.

        • MRH

          John 17:15, when the Lord is praying specifically that we NOT be taken out of the world, but instead protected while we’re here

          @John: So how are we protected in the coming tribulation hell hole? As long as we are flesh we are vulnerable to the elements and death. Only in immortal form could we be kept safe. And if we are changed into such form prior, then why worry about all this end time stuff to begin with?

          Rom 8:11 KJV – But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

          1Co 15:51-53 KJV – Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

          P.S. After Jesus’ resurrection he walked as an immortal being on earth for many days preaching, and afterwards he ascended into heaven 😉

      • MRH

        @Jeffrey: Rev 3:10 concerns the wrath NOT tribulation. It’s the time of the sinners NOT the saints. We are kept from the wrath NOT tribulation.. BIG DIFFERENCE 😉

        P.S. Maybe God should have written the bible better for us simple minded folk to more easily comprehend without involving endless debates? 💡

  • Just me

    Technically, isn’t the 28th on Monday? Not on the weekend. I understood in the bible teachings of the Battle of Armageddon that we will follow Jesus, but all He’s going to do is with one breath (as a two edged sword) take care of the enemies in the Battle in one second and we will not be involved, just be there with Him. Am really looking forward to the Rapture being next. PTL, it won’t be long!

    • Actually, the Battle of Armageddon is the battle where its not fought in a “single breath”. You’re thinking of the Battle of Gog and Magog after the 1,000 Year Reign where it’s over the second it starts.

    • Hadassah

      .

      The Feast of Tabernacles begins at sundown on Sunday, Sept 27.

      The eclipse begins Sept 27 a little after 9PM US eastern time…
      but in Israel the eclipse begins in the early morning hours of Sept 28.

      .

    • RobiMac

      True. The super blood moon will be hanging over Jerusalem anytime after midnight Israel’s time. Keep in mind that Israel’s time is 7 hours ahead of us for those on or near the east coast, 10 for the west coast. I live in Ohio so, after 5 pm Sunday 27th in Ohio, the moon would be over Jerusalem after midnight on the 28th.

  • Jewish Voice

    Everyone, the war of 1948 occured “before” the 1949-1950 Tetrad, the Six Day War in which Israel acquired Promise Land occured “during” the 1967-1968 Tetrad and it is becoming obvious that the War of Psalm 83 will occur “after” the 2014-2015 Tetrad (Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1-2 and Ezekiel 29:12). This time Israel will acquire Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

  • Hadassah

    .

    Here is interesting info I’ve gleaned.

    Sept 28 = many important world leaders will give speeches at the UN, including Putin.

    Sept 28 = rumors of an asteroid hitting the Atlantic… curiously NASA denied those rumors.

    Sept 28 = supermoon eclipse

    Sept 28 = Feast of Tabernacles = possible birth date of Jesus Christ… the one feast that is celebrated world-wide by whoever survives Armageddon.

    ALL the clues… all the pieces to a puzzle… seem to be there… that something is going to happen on Sept 28… an asteroid falling from space causing a huge tsunami ?? If so, where ?? Off NYC east coast or off the coast from Tel Aviv ?? Maybe both ?!

    Ezekiel prophecy for gog/magog says a fire is sent on gog/magog… an asteroid is a mountain burning with fire… before it hits the ocean.

    ” a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea ”

    Revelation 8:8

    .

    • Skywatcher

      According to my sources, the asteroid was supposed to make its presence known on the 24th. Maybe, the various sources are also confused as to which orbit it’s really in and which planet it is nearing! 🙂 It is just more fear mongering.

      Any asteroid of huge significance will NOT hit our earth until the Apocalypse. However, if even a small one hit me in the head today, I’d find that rather “significant”, but you know what I’m saying!

      • Hadassah

        .

        @Skywatcher

        Of all the many ‘wild and crazy’ rumors on the internet…
        WHY did NASA feel it necessary to debunk this asteroid
        hitting the Atlantic rumor ??

        I had never heard of the rumor before NASA debunked it.

        As for the date… this MSM news report says the rumored
        asteroid would hit between Sept 15 and Sept 28.

        Here is a news quote:

        ” The rumor maintains that an area around Puerto Rico will be struck by an asteroid between September 15 and September 28. ”

        http://myfox8.com/2015/08/23/is-earth-facing-a-threat-of-an-asteroid-collision-in-september-nasa-says-stop-worrying/

        Interestingly… Sept 15 was the beginning of the UN’s special 70th session…
        and Sept 28 many world leaders are scheduled to speak at the UN.

        See my other UN-related posts here.

        .

        • sooz22

          Isn’t the 28th the day that Palestine is supposedly to be recognized by the UN as it’s own “sovereign state?” If this involves ceding territory that belongs to Israel, we’ve got a problem. No one can give away the land promised to the chosen people by God – EXCEPT GOD – without consequences.

      • Hadassah

        .

        Skywatcher posted:

        ” However, if even a small one hit me in the head today, I’d find that rather “significant”, but you know what I’m saying! ”
        ___________________________

        What better target than the globalist UN ?!

        .

        • Skywatcher

          AMEN, AMEN! However, it’s not very likely, because they’re playing right into our Heavenly Father’s hand! I wonder if they know it?

  • just me

    Oh, I’m confusing my battles. lol So I guess I better get my sword sharpened and ready for battle. Very interesting, isn’t it….and exciting too.

  • Jewish Voice

    Hadassah, do you know if the UN will be voting on the Palestinian resolution on the 28th? I think that Obama will tell his representative to not veto the resolution this time.

    • Hadassah

      .

      39 speeches are scheduled for Sept 28.
      I doubt there will be any voting.

      Ironic the first speech is by MOON !

      28 September 2015

      Morning Session

      * 1.
      Secretary-General of the United Nations
      H.E. Mr. Ban Ki-Moon
      Secretary-General

      * 2.
      President of the General Assembly (opening)
      H.E. Mr. Mogens Lykketoft
      President of the 70th session of the General Assembly

      * 3.
      Brazil

      * 4.
      United States of America

      * 5.
      Poland

      * 6.
      China

      * 7.
      Jordan

      * 8.
      Russian Federation

      * 9.
      Republic of Korea

      * 10.
      Iran (Islamic Republic of)

      * 11.
      France

      * 12.
      Qatar

      * 13.
      Mozambique

      * 14.
      Netherlands

      * 15.
      Kazakhstan

      * 16.
      Mexico

      * 17.
      Portugal

      * 18.
      Denmark

      * 19.
      Ethiopia

      Afternoon Session

      * 20.
      Uganda

      * 21.
      Chile

      * 22.
      Cuba

      * 23.
      South Africa

      * 24.
      Morocco

      * 25.
      Switzerland

      * 26.
      Zimbabwe

      * 27.
      Argentina

      * 28.
      Belarus

      * 29.
      Nigeria

      * 30.
      Gabon

      * 31.
      Paraguay

      * 32.
      Kenya

      * 33.
      Turkmenistan

      * 34.
      Senegal

      * 35.
      Mali

      * 36.
      Ecuador

      * 37.
      Bolivia (Plurinational State of)

      * 38.
      Kiribati

      * 39.
      Australia

      http://gadebate.un.org/

      .

  • Just me

    Thank you, Hadassah , now I know when to look for it. I’m on central time, so I will be seeing at a different time than you. God Bless!

    • Hadassah

      .

      Central time the eclipse begins 8:07PM Sunday night.

      ” The moon will enter Earth’s much darker umbral shadow at 1:07 a.m. on Sept. 28 by Greenwich, or Universal time, which is 9:07 p.m. on Sept. 27 in the Eastern time zone, 8:07 p.m. Central time, 7:07 p.m. Mountain time and 6:07 p.m. Pacific time (before moonrise). Sixty-four minutes later, the moon is entirely within the shadow, and sails on within it for 72 minutes until it begins to find its way out at the lower left (southeastern) edge.

      The moon will be free of the umbra by 9:27 p.m. Pacific time or 12:27 a.m. (Sept. 28) Eastern time. The vaguer shading of the inner penumbra can continue to be readily detected for perhaps another 15 minutes or so after the end of umbral eclipse. Thus, the whole experience ends toward 1 a.m. for the East (with the re-brightened moon now sloping down along the arc it describes across the sky) or during the mid-evening hours for the West.

      For Europe and Africa, the midpoint of this eclipse occurs roughly between midnight and dawn on Sept. 28, and the moon will therefore still be well placed in the western sky ”

      http://www.space.com/30607-supermoon-lunar-eclipse-time-place-guide.html

      .

  • Hadassah

    .

    The UN was created in 1945, so this is a special 70th UN session.

    70 years is a very important symbolic time period in Bible prophecy. 70 years was the time period of Babylonian rule. At the end of the 70 years came liberation from Babylon. Jeremiah 29:10

    Many are calling this special 70th UN session a “jubilee” session.

    Here is an example from Pravda:

    ” On September 15, the jubilee 70th session of the UN General Assembly is opening. On September 28, a high-level session will start working to bring together the majority of the heads of states and governments, as well as foreign ministers. To crown it all, at a special summit on 25-27 September, world leaders will adopt the global development agenda after 2015. ”

    http://english.pravda.ru/russia/kremlin/01-09-2015/131777-putin_un_general_assembly_speech-0/

    .

  • AndrewA

    Much needed article.

    Thanks for setting the record straight on whats in the bible vs whats not.

    • I know it’s not nearly as exciting to learn Bible doctrine as it is to read the page-turning bestsellers of the Blood Moon boys (Hagee, Biltz, et al). But as Bible believers that what we are called to do, yes?

      • bremertonchristian

        I think learning the bible is way more fun than reading best selling books. Thanks Geoffe and NTEB you guys are great. I like pastor Mark Biltz, and I haven’t heard him make any wildly unbiblical claims, have you? I think a lot of people put words in his mouth. I’m with you Geoffe, the “blood moon” in the bible is a supernatural event.

        • Slamdunk

          I agree with you brother brem, NTEB is a gret website and gets it right 99% of the time. The other 1%, they get it wrong. Jesus comes for His bride AFTER the trib:)

      • AndrewA

        I am with Bremertonchristian when it comes to reading the Bible.

        When it comes to the Bible I never get enough of it. I read best sellers and it can at most be really interesting. When I read the Bible and see the Word described in the pages I just want to keep turning the page or revisit a book and read it again.

        I actuly have the hard time because it is something I love talking about almost none stop and as you can probably imagine being a street preacher most people outside of church seem to be allergic at best down right hostel at worse to the idea of talking about scripture in regular conversation.

        Rambling aside thanks again for the work you and everyone due.

  • Sue

    Just some Scriptures to share with you:
    John 6:39: “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”
    John 6:40: “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
    John 6:44: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
    John 6:54: “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
    Matthew 24:20-22: “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”
    Matthew 24:37-39: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”
    Luke 17:28-29: “Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.”

    In case we are here for the tribulation, here is a Psalm to hold onto:
    Psalm 91: He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
    shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
    I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust.”
    Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the perilous pestilence.
    He shall cover you with His feathers, and under His wings you shall take refuge;
    His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
    You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flies by day,
    Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
    A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, and see the reward of the wicked.
    Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge, even the Most High, your dwelling place, no evil shall befall you, nor shall any plague come near your dwelling; for He shall give His angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways.
    In their hands they shall bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone.
    You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra, the young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.
    Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
    He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him, with long life I will satisfy him, and show him my salvation.”

    This all is written to Christians, for it is Christians who read the Bible, so keep your focus on Jesus, and what ever may be He is right there beside you! God Bless you all and I pray all our eyes will be open at this time!

    • Slamdunk

      Amen and Amen, Sue. The church has absolutely nothing to lose in preparing for tribulation before transformation, even though I do believe the former will come first. But today’s church doesn’t want to hear anything about tribulation, kingdom of antichrist, suffering, etc. Surely, our brothers and sisters in the middle east are still praying for pre trib rapture, but seem better prepared to face tribulation. Voice of the Martyrs is a great organization and I encourage all to support them. The stories they report are most encouraging because they tell us how to be ready for tribulation. These saints are on the front line. We don’t have a clue what it means to suffer for Christ in America.

      Lord bless

  • Samuel

    I stopped reading at “turns into actual blood”!? What is wrong with you? You must be Catholic, is this called transsubmoonchangeation?! U guys a have some good stuff & sometimes u should keep quiet.

    • I guess you don’t believe the Bible then, Joel says “turns to blood”. This is how God views the Tribulation: “For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.” Revelation 16:6 (KJV). Nothing Catholic about it, it’s a bloody time…

      • Phony Name

        In properly discerning if the moon is literal or symbolic blood, there is much to consider as these prophecies are loaded with symbolism and overlaying scriptures. In making such a bold statement, there ought to be more thorough research and understanding to ensure we don’t slip into error.

        For example, in Acts 2:20 the word blood translates as αίμα. It is also used in dozens of other passages in the NT. One to note is John 6:53 where Jesus says, “…Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” In context, it seems that Jesus deliberately meant to portray that we must literally drink his blood as the listeners understood it to mean this and were so shocked that many turned away from following him (John 6:60,66). Yet we know this to be symbolic of the last supper, as Jesus clearly states in Mat 26:28, again using the same word, αίμα.

        With one such example in mind, while the bible may seem to render the moon as literal blood in Acts 2:20, there is reason to doubt this conclusion.

        Please note that this specific teaching is new and ought to be subject to testing by believers, in humility (1 Thes 5:21, Gal 6:1).

        Also it says in Prov 18:17: “He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.”

        Please let me know if I’ve missed something, or if anybody can substantiate that we should expect the moon should be literal blood, I invite you to do so in grace and humility.

      • Hadassah

        .

        Here is a symbolic take
        on the “sun being darkened”
        and the “moon turning to blood.”

        The Sun symbolizes Christianity…
        Jesus Christ is the Sun of Righteousness.
        So the sun darkened symbolizes Christianity
        under oppression, trial and tribulation.

        The moon symbolizes Islam… so the moon
        turning to blood symbolizes violence and
        war in Muslim nations and Muslims exporting
        their violence and war to Christian lands.

        .

    • Phony Name

      In properly discerning if the moon is literal or symbolic blood, there is much to consider as these prophecies are loaded with symbolism and overlaying scriptures. In making such a bold statement, there ought to be more thorough research and understanding to ensure we don’t slip into error.

      For example, in Acts 2:20 the word blood translates as αίμα. It is also used in dozens of other passages in the NT. One to note is John 6:53 where Jesus says, “…Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” In context, it seems that Jesus deliberately meant to portray that we must literally drink his blood as the listeners understood it to mean this and were so shocked that many turned away from following him (John 6:60,66). Yet we know this to be symbolic of the last supper, as Jesus clearly states in Mat 26:28, again using the same word, αίμα.

      With one such example in mind, while the bible may seem to render the moon as literal blood in Acts 2:20, there is reason to doubt this conclusion.

      Please note that this specific teaching is new and ought to be subject to testing by believers, in humility (1 Thes 5:21, Gal 6:1).

      Also it says in Prov 18:17: “He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.”

      Please let me know if I’ve missed something, or if anybody can substantiate that we should expect the moon should be literal blood, I invite you to do so in grace and humility.

      • Phony Name

        Hmm, something wrong technically as my comment seems to playing disappearing/ reappearing games. Geoffrey please delete 2 out of 3. Thanks.

  • dennis karr

    I can’t believe the stupidity of these doomsday prophets! A very casual reading of Acts 2: 21-41 will inform you that Joel 2 was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost! Peter said ” This is that”

    • Well, no, Peter said that Joel’s prophecy was coming to pass but it never actually happened. Joel’s prophecy is the day of the Lord, and obviously that never happened. What stopped it was the rejection of the Holy Spirit with the stoning of Stephen. This will explain it for you: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=33597

    • Phony Name

      In the case of discerning if the moon is literal or symbolic blood, there is much to consider as these prophecies are loaded with symbolism and overlaying scriptures. In making such a bold statement, there ought to be more thorough research and understanding to ensure we don’t slip into error.

      For example, in Acts 2:20 the word blood translates as αἷμα. It is also used in dozens of other passages in the NT. One to note is John 6:53 where Jesus says literally, “…Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” In context, it seems that Jesus deliberately meant to portray that we must literally drink his blood as the listeners understood it to mean this and were so shocked that many turned away from following him (John 6:60,66). Yet we know this to be symbolic of the last supper, as Jesus clearly states in Mat 26:28, again using the same word, αἷμα.

      With one such example in mind, while the bible may seem to render the moon as literal blood in Acts 2:20, there is reason to doubt this conclusion.

      Please note that I’m not purposely out to attack or discourage anybody, but this teaching is new and ought to be subject to testing by believers in humility (1 Thes 5:21, Gal 6:1).

      Also it says in Prov 18:17: “He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.”

      As I am quite unlearned in bible prophecy and many other matters, please let me know if I’ve missed something. Or if anybody can substantiate that we should expect the moon should be literal blood, I invite you to do so in grace and humility.

  • Marian

    Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be light in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.

    Notice that the first purpose listed is for SIGNS. I haven’t done an exhaustive word study, but if King James translation of Greek and Hebrew text is accurate, then we must conclude that what happens with the moon and stars is God communicating with us.

    I don’t disagree with what is in Grider’s post, but I believe the world is hearing from the Creator in the Blood Moons and other astronomical events (remember the blood moon June 30 that no one expected and also a double eclipse on Rosh Hashanah that is the first in world history?).

    Why would He not be warning of impending cataclysmic events? We are clearly facing disaster from humans and He must surely be close to unleashing His wrath on a rebellious world. God always warns of His coming judgment.

    Psalm 19 expresses the idea that God’s echoes His message through His Creation. There are other passages that line up with this idea.

    • Heather

      Amen Marian!

  • Jewish Voice

    The lunar eclipses on Jewish holidays, especially during a tetrad, are “appointed time” (moed) when God is trying to talk to His “Chosen People,” not to us Americans, the doomed people of Heremiah 25:32-33)…As long as we were blessing Israel, we were being blessed by God (Genesis 12:3). But when we elected an Islamic president and he started to curse Israel, the God of Israel started cursing us (I won’t go into details)…Will Obama “veto” the Palestnian resolution this time, I don’t know?…From what I read in Daniel 11:39, it sounds like Israel will be “divided” around the time of the 42 months of Great Tribulation and not any time soon…I don’t know what is going to happen Monday but it can’t be the fourth and final Arab vs. Israel war of Psalm 83 (Assad is still in power). Happy holiday.

    • Marian

      Christians are God’s adopted children. They are the beneficiaries of His Chosen People’s rejection of Christ. At this point on the prophetic timeline, signs for the Jews will have an impact on His children whether they live in America or elsewhere in the world.

      While the US may have abandoned Israel, our Lord will never leave or forsake us, His children. God doesn’t blame me for Obama- I did everything I could think of, including becoming a regular on a radio show to circulate the information researchers uncovered in and before 2007 exposing this usurper.

  • Mary

    God bless us all.

  • Jonas

    When will the sun become dark as sackcloth of hair? Doesn’t this have to happen before the moon turns to blood? I really appreciate this site, especially as you use the BIBLE, not mans perversions !!!

    • That all happens during the time of Jacob’s Trouble at the Battle of Armageddon…AFTER the Rapture of the Church.

  • John

    Not exactly.

    Assuredly, the apostle Paul tells us that we’re “not appointed to wrath”:

    1 Thessalonians 5:9- “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”

    What is the “wrath” which we’re not appointed to? The DoTL. He tells us as much in verse 2, as that’s the theme of 1 Thess 5:

    1 Thessalonians 5:2- “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”

    A careful examination of Scripture reveals that it does indeed give us a timetable for the start of the DoTL:

    Matthew 24:29- “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

    Here, The Lord tells us that the heavenly signs follow the tribulation. Then Peter (in quoting Joel 2:31), tells us that the DoTL follows the heavenly signs:

    Acts 2:20- “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come:”

    It should also be noted that Joel uses the “dark” moon and the “blood” moon descriptions synonymously:

    Joel 2:10-11: “The Earth shall quake before them; the heaven shall tremble: the sun and the MOON shall be DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

    Joel 2:31- “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the MOON into BLOOD, before the great and the terrible DAY OF THE LORD come.”

    Joel 3:14-16: “Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the DAY OF THE LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the MOON shall be DARKENED, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

    So the sequence of events is:

    Trib–>heavenly signs–>DoTL

    Therefore, according to Scripture, the “wrath” which we’re “not appointed to” is the post-trib, post-70th week DoTL.

    Anything else is a failure to “rightly divide”.

    • carrierwave

      What you call “rightly dividing” is actually “piece-mealing” and segmenting verses together. Note: 1Thess. 5:2 specifically states that the “Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” The words “so” COMETH denotes the beginning of something, or something “entered into” STRONG’S G2064.

      “Sudden destruction cometh upon “THEM”– that is, upon the people who are saying: “Peace and Safety”. IT IS A SURPRISE! At the end of the last 3 1/2 years, as so stated in Revelation chapters 17-20, NOBODY IS SAYING “PEACE AND SAFETY”. This is the glaring falsehood of this false teaching. The RAPTURE comes while people are buying selling marrying and giving in marriage etc.

      This is NOT the senario we find when Jesus and the church come riding out of Heaven Rev. 19:11. All human life is hanging in the balance–they have been drinking BLOOD to survive, all trees and grass have been burnt up, scorched, by the sun, boils over their bodies, stung by demon locusts. NOBODY IS SAYING “PEACE AND SAFETY”!

      The “Day of the Lord” described in 2 Peter 3:10 debunks this notion also. Peter uses the SAME “thief in the night” surprise analogy as Paul. But notice, the “Day of the Lord” will “COME” as a “thief in the night” (note the next words!) “IN WHICH THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO, AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP.”
      Now, this does not happen until AFTER the 1000 year Millennium! Peter says the day of the Lord “comes as a thief in the night” and CONTINUES ON through the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ to the NEW HEAVEN AN NEW EARTH are created! The day of the Lord includes the Millennium and New heavens and Earth.

      • John

        Peace-mealing? I gave the Scriptural timeline. Your beef is with the Lord and Joel/Peter.

        Fyi:

        Furthermore, the Lord is still telling us to “watch” for His coming like a “thief” even after the 6th vial:

        Revelation 16:15- “Behold, I come as a THIEF. Blessed is he that WATCHETH, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

        One should note that this is also the same vial in which the armies of the Earth are gathering together:

        Revelation 16:14- “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

        Therefore, at the same vial in which the armies are gathering, the Lord is telling us to “watch” for His coming, in a verse which parallels His earlier words:

        Matthew 24:42-43: “WATCH therefore:for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the THIEF would come, he would have WATCHED, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.”

        • carrierwave

          Revelation 16:15 is true, but appears here as parenthetical ONLY and applies to those “reading” about these FUTURE events in the ‘church age’. Also see Revelation 3:3, again, a ‘church age’ warning ONLY. It simply does not fit in the actual and final prophetic timeline and scene in Revelation 19:11 when Jesus returns at the second coming. Jesus is not coming as a “thief in the night” at the 2nd coming. ANTI-CHRIST AND HIS ARMIES *KNOW* HE IS COMING. The world knows it.

          The fact is the armies gathered with anti-christ already know Jesus is coming, and are prepared to “make war” against “the Lamb and the armies that are with him are called faithful and chosen.” Revelation 17:14

          The world is not saying “Peace and Safety” as in 1 Thess. 5:2. Peter tells us the “Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, *IN WHICH* the heavens and earth shall pass away with a great noise. The Day of the Lord BEGINS with the rapture and extends through at least Revelation 21.

          Matt 24:42-43 and the like, are pre-trib warnings of the RAPTURE, when people are “buying and selling, marrying and giving in marriage” and saying “Peace and Safety” not the 2nd coming. The scenarios are simply impossible for them to be at the time of the 2nd coming.

          • John

            Revelation 16:14
            For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

          • John

            You said: “Revelation 16:15 is true, but appears here as parenthetical ONLY and applies to those ‘reading’ about these FUTURE events in the ‘church age’.”

            Uh, no. The narrative of Revelation was in chapters 1 and 22. There would be no reason to give a “parenthetical” statement smack dab before the very last judgment, unless, of course, He’s returning like a “thief” afterwards. You see, Matt. 24:42-44 was given in a posttrib context. Being that the Lord never actually described coming before the trib, pretribbers have to manufacture a pretrib coming. Despite the Lord describing events chronologically in Matt. 24 (beginning of sorrows, AoD, Great Trib, posttrib return), pretribbers have to resort to claiming we need to switch gears from the literal, and now reach deep down for into our Cracker Jack boxes for the trusty secret decoder ring, and imagine that He’s now going BACK to something before the trib, despite Him never having even SUGGESTED it! Lol.

            No, friend. As I’ve shown, the Lord and Joel/Peter squarely put the timing of the DoTL as being AFTER the trib, and AFTER the heavenly signs, so the Lord comes like a “thief” AFTER the trib. Which is why He’s saying what He’s saying immediately before the last judgment.

            You said: “Also see Revelation 3:3, again, a ‘church age’ warning ONLY.”

            What I find adorable is how pretribbers claim Matt. 24 isn’t for the church, because of Jewish lingo like “Judea” and “Sabbath”, but Matt. 24:22-24 is somehow okay to use. How Matt. 24 isn’t for the church because of Jewish lingo, but John 14:1-3 apparently is, despite describing the JEWISH wedding model. How Matthew 24 isn’t for the church because of Jewish lingo, but Rev. 2 and 3 are, DESPITE the Lord using Jewish “lingo” to the church:

            Revelation 2:17- “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden MANNA, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.”

            It doesn’t get any more “Jewish” than that.

            You said: “It simply does not fit in the actual and final prophetic timeline and scene in Revelation 19:11 when Jesus returns at the second coming. Jesus is not coming as a ‘thief in the night’ at the 2nd coming. ANTI-CHRIST AND HIS ARMIES *KNOW* HE IS COMING. The world knows it.”

            Let’s be clear. The world is celebrating even through the judgments:

            Revelation 11:10- “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.”

            Did you get that? They’re rejoicing and making merry. Even sending gifts to each other. So they’re getting pummeled with judgments, and once the two witnesses are killed, they’re celebrating? I guess they aren’t all that impressed with locusts and hail, are they? You also missed the fact that they’re being deceived by the unholy triad:

            Revelation 16:14- “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

            You said: “The fact is the armies gathered with anti-christ already know Jesus is coming, and are prepared to ‘make war’ against ‘the Lamb and the armies that are with him are called faithful and chosen.'”

            Those armies are angels. To be sure, the Lord only described His angels emerging out of Heaven with Him at His second coming. He didn’t get your memo. So enough with the patronizing nonsense that He didn’t know precisely what He was talking about. Okay?

          • carrierwave

            Revelation 11 is only mid trib– oh please! Rejoicing over dead witnesses? At the “final battle”, the unsaved have been drinking dead man’s BLOOD to stay alive, all grass burned up, violent earthquakes have killed
            millions THERE is NO “PEACE AND SAFETY”. This post trib rapture make no SENSE.

            Mattthew 24 was written while Jesus was addressing His 12 disciple who entered the church age at Pentecost and ministered TO THE CHURCH. The language used here is BIBLICAL language. Attempts to “jewishsize” everything Jesus said to prop up a false post-trib rapture scenario is simply ridiculous.

            Jesus gave commands TO THE CHURCH during His ministry which he taught his disciples that ministered AFTER Pentecost to “born again” believers. Matthew 16:18, Matthew 17:18, Matt.18:17 John 14 in particular teaches promises made to “church age believers”. Particularly John 14:16-26 a promise fulfilled AT PENTECOST in which both Jew and Gentile partake of. These are promises for the church age, not the last 7 years of the prophetic “week” to be determined on “Thy people” Israel in the Last days.

            Angels are not “chosen and faithful”; only believers are! “Believers” are the one’s coming WITH Jesus to fight in the final battle Revelation 17:14. You cannot piece-meal scriptures together and then deny Revelation 17:14 claiming these are angels, bcause THEY ARE NOT. Where do you find angels “riding horses”? Oh please! It is only fitting physical church age believers washed in His BLOOD come with Jesus on horseback. Here are the “chosen and faithful”: Matthew 20:16, Matthew 22:14 Mark 13:20 (by the way, a tribulation verse) John 6:70 John 13:18 John 15:16-19 Acts 1:12 Acts 9:15 Acts 22:14 1Cor. 1:27 Eph. 1:4 2Thess. 2:13 2Tim 2:14 James 2:5 1Peter 2:9 AND Rev. 17:14 which you have denied are believers that come with Jesus.

          • carrierwave

            Revelation 11 is only mid trib– oh please! Rejoicing over dead witnesses? At the “final battle”, the unsaved have been drinking dead man’s BLOOD to stay alive, all grass burned up, violent earthquakes have killed
            millions THERE is NO “PEACE AND SAFETY”. This post trib rapture make no SENSE.

            Mattthew 24 was written while Jesus was addressing His 12 disciple who entered the church age at Pentecost and ministered TO THE CHURCH. The language used here is BIBLICAL language. Attempts to “jewishsize” everything Jesus said as “tribulation scenarios” to prop up a false post-trib rapture scenario is simply ridiculous.

            Jesus gave commands TO THE CHURCH during His ministry which he taught his disciples that ministered AFTER Pentecost to “born again” believers. Matthew 16:18, Matthew 17:18, Matt.18:17 John 14 in particular teaches promises made to “church age believers”. Particularly John 14:16-26 a promise fulfilled AT PENTECOST in which both Jew and Gentile partake of. These are promises for the church age, not the last 7 years of the prophetic “week” to be determined on “Thy people” Israel in the Last days.

            Angels are not “chosen and faithful”; only believers are! “Believers” are the one’s coming WITH Jesus to fight in the final battle Revelation 17:14. You cannot piece-meal scriptures together and then deny Revelation 17:14 claiming these are angels, bcause THEY ARE NOT. Where do you find angels “riding horses”? Oh please! It is only fitting physical church age believers washed in His BLOOD come with Jesus on horseback. Here are the “chosen and faithful”: Matthew 20:16, Matthew 22:14 Mark 13:20 (by the way, a tribulation verse) John 6:70 John 13:18 John 15:16-19 Acts 1:12 Acts 9:15 Acts 22:14 1Cor. 1:27 Eph. 1:4 2Thess. 2:13 2Tim 2:14 James 2:5 1Peter 2:9 AND Rev. 17:14 which you have denied are believers that come with Jesus.

          • John

            You said: “Revelation 11 is only mid trib– oh please!”

            Who said Rev. 11 is midtrib? The two witnesses are killed 3.5 days before the end of the trib.

            You said: “millions THERE is NO ‘PEACE AND SAFETY’. This post trib rapture make no SENSE.”

            I’m not at all interested in what “makes sense” to you. I’m only interested in what Scripture says. Matt. 24:29 and Acts 2:20 place the DoTL as starting after the trib. The DoTL was the theme of 1 Thess 5 (1 Thess 5:2). Therefore the DoTL and the Lord’s coming like a “thief” are after the trib, which is why the Lord is telling us to “watch” for His coming like a “thief” after the 6th vial, which is the same vial in which the armies are gathering from across the globe.

            Deal with it.

            Your next two paragraphs are nonsensical rhetoric, and you don’t even specify what you were even responding to.

            You said: “Angels are not ‘chosen and faithful’; only believers are! “Believers” are the one’s coming WITH Jesus to fight in the final battle Revelation 17:14.”

            Is that what you do? Come onto forums touting how right you are, and when proven wrong Scripturally, you resort to the “nanny nanny boo-boo” approach to debate?

            You said: “You cannot piece-meal scriptures together and then deny Revelation 17:14 claiming these are angels, bcause THEY ARE NOT.”

            Um, according to the Lord, they’re angels. Again, the Lord apparently got your silly memo.

            You said: “Where do you find angels ‘riding horses’? Oh please! It is only fitting physical church age believers washed in His BLOOD come with Jesus on horseback. with Jesus.”

            Lol. That’s your Scriptural response? That angels aren’t equestrians in Scripture? That argument has more holes than a sieve. The Lord clearly described angels returning with Him from Heaven at His second coming. Yet Rev. 19:14 only describes armies riding horses. So how are the angels returning with Him if not riding horses, when that’s the only means of return Rev. 19:14 describes?

            Try again.

          • carrierwave

            “Lol. That’s your Scriptural response? That angels aren’t equestrians in Scripture? That argument has more holes than a sieve. The Lord clearly described angels returning with Him from Heaven at His second coming. Yet Rev. 19:14 only describes armies riding horses. So how are the angels returning with Him if not riding horses, when that’s the only means of return Rev. 19:14 describes?

            Try again.”

            Ok–1THESS.3:13 JUDE 1:14 (NO angels on horseback, sorry)

          • John

            1 Thess 3:13 and Jude 14 don’t even describe the Lord coming back on a horse. Neither does Matt. 24:29. Neither does 2 Thess 1:7-10. Neither does Zech. 14:5.

            Care to use any other non sequiturs?

  • Skywatcher

    Hadassah is correct in what he is saying about the various things that are going on this month and in the elitist circles!

    Are you folks aware of the Planetary Court, Earth’s Parliament, etc.? If not, you NEED to check this out! It will blow the socks off of ye!

    http://worldparliament-gov.org/interfaith-liaisons
    http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/sustainable-development-goals/

    Ask the Holy Spirit to help you to read between the lines!!!. These are very dangerous goals, right from the pit of Hell!

  • barb

    My Bible gives no indication of a rapture until AFTER THE LAST TRUMP! Aren’t you setting Christians up to be expecting a fly-away deliverance that is not promised in the Bible. That is the main reason for the lethargy towards evil in the Christian community today. This belief originated from a serpent delivered message to a woman in the late 18th or early 19th century. I don’t trust snakes. I would like for you to have been correct…..no need to concern ourselves, right? Wrong!

    • Chris

      Exactly this, remember why the snake is the snake. And remember no one but the father himself knows the day nor the hour.

    • Skywatcher

      Barb, what teaching are you referring to as coming from a serpent? If it’s the rapture you’re speaking of, you are WRONG! The Rapture doctrine begins in John 14: 3: “…I will receive you unto myself…”
      There have been several raptures in the Bible so far, i.e.: Enoch, Elijah, Philip, Christ, and I’m waiting for my turn!

      • John

        The audience of John 14:1-3 was the same as that of Matt. 24 and 25: His apostles. Pretrib believe the church wasn’t created until Pentecost. Remember? And the JEWISH wedding model isn’t JEWISH? Doesn’t anything JEWISH pertain to “Israel”? Or is that just you wanting to have your cake and eat it too?

        • carrierwave

          John 14 has direct results that are fulfilled during the church age. To deny this is to deny your own salvation. Again, you are “piece-mealing” verses and “jewishizing” the first 3 verses and then ignoring whole chapter. John 14 is filled with promises given to the “church age”. Without the Jesus death and resurrection and LEAVING and the COMING of the Sprirt, YOU WOULD NOT BE SAVED TODAY! How is that speaking only to ISRAEL??

          You cannot “Jacobize” All of the things taught in the 4 Gospels without robbing believers of the New Covenant doctrines. Doing this to promote an impossible post-trib scenario is simply ridiculous.

  • Amen!

  • i think the real Jews were never gathered together in their home land and what we see was a forced gathering of people who appeared to be Jews (askenazi) but are not and so using that 1948 and 1967 happening which was facilitated by the Zionist Rothschild isn’t worth a plum nickle towards any prophecy in scripture. We may have a hundred years to go before the true Jews are gathered to their homeland as written in the Bible.

  • Hadassah

    .

    Here is a symbolic take
    on the “sun being darkened”
    and the “moon turning to blood.”

    The Sun symbolizes Christianity…
    Jesus Christ is the Sun of Righteousness.
    So the sun darkened symbolizes Christianity
    under oppression, trial and tribulation.

    The moon symbolizes Islam… so the moon
    turning to blood symbolizes violence and
    war in Muslim nations and Muslims exporting
    their violence and war to Christian lands.

    .

  • Patrick

    The Moon This Weekend Is Only a “Blood Moon” If You’re Being Stupid

    Sunday night (in the Western Hemisphere) the shadow of the the Earth will fall on the face of the full moon, darkening it. This is the uncommon, but not too uncommon, phenomenon called a “lunar eclipse.”

    Recently—very recently—people have started calling it a “blood moon.” This sounds very ancient and mystical and spiritual but is a bit of contemporary gibberish pasted together out of scattered Bible verses by some moronic apocalyptic preachers.

    There’s some specific mumbo-jumbo about the relative timing of a series of eclipses that qualifies one, in this made-up scheme, to be a “blood moon.” None of that changes anything about the underlying natural phenomenon of the Earth’s shadow falling on the moon. Sunday’s eclipse will be more or less the same thing that always happens at these times.

    If you call a nice normal lunar eclipse a “blood moon,” you are being a moron. The specific moment that morons first drowned out normal people was April of 2014:

    That people also became more interested in “lunar eclipse” as they went wild for “blood moon” just makes the whole cultural spasm more depressing. The Oxford Junior Dictionary deletes “acorn” and “buttercup” while adding “blog” and “chatroom”; people are so estranged from the basic human understanding of nature that it takes a fake-profund End of Days fad word to convince anyone to look up.

    A “blood moon” is not some special apocalyptic celestial phenomenon. It is a standard lunar eclipse, if a moron is talking about it. As in any standard lunar eclipse, the moon may or may not appear to be tinged with red while it is in shadow. It also may or may not appear to be tinged with the color of tea, or cocoa, or dead leaves. Dead Leaf Moon!

    This particular Dead Leaf Moon will be made marginally more interesting because the moon will be at the perigee of its orbit, so that it is closer and (a little bit) larger-looking than usual. Some people have taken to calling this a “supermoon,” which is silly hype but at least is not dumb mysticism.

    According to NASA, the eclipse will begin at 9:07 p.m. and will reach totality from 10:11 to 11:23. The National Weather Service predicts the night in New York City will be mostly cloudy with a chance of light rain. Enjoy the lunar eclipse if you can!

  • Jewish Voice

    Daniel Erline (DB – the Nazi from hell) It’s anti-Semitics like you who get me sick…For your information, It’s the God of Israel who is bringing the Jews back home to Israel (Ezekiel 37) and who did all of those miracles in 1948 and 1967 (military won’t even study these wars because they are miracles) and who will be doing the same in the upcoming fourth and final Arab vs. Israeli war of Psalm 83 (Isaiah 17:1 and Amos 1-2) and, a few years later, World War Three (Ezekiel 38:17-23).

    • Eisenhorn

      Yep play the ol’ anti semitic card! It was inevitable. Miracles???? A race of people controlling the worlds banking system isnt the work of God its the work of satan. If Israel followed God Tel aviv wouldn’t be the Gay capital of the world and you wouldn’t be able to preach the Gospel on the streets. A nation that rejects Christ doesn’t belong to God.

  • Char

    Patrick, I agree with you (minus the sarcasm) that the “blood moon” will be just another lunar eclipse. No more and no less. Nothing biblical is going to happen tomorrow night in regards to it. So, as you say, enjoy the lunar eclipse! God Bless! Unfortunately, Mark Biltz and John Hagee made a few million on their books, but they’re just trying to make a living like we all are.

  • Mary

    Thanks stupid moron!

  • I too am following the Blood Moons, but research has uncovered ANOTHER CELESTIAL EVENT THAT WILL DARKEN THE SUN AND MAKE THE MOON SHINE RED !!!

    Another part of Gods Awesome Creation is NIBIRU, which satan has devised many lies about, including the Annunaki / Sumerian Religion!

    I am not going to explain Nibiru alot, as you can research it yourserf, i suggest using YouTube.com … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgTFpoVu4dI

    The FALLEN ANGELS /DEMONS that our governments WORSHIP
    In the Bohemian Grove (american version of England’s HELLFIRE Secret Society)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtSVBTne-KY

    SATANIC “SKULL & BONES” PRESIDENT SPEECHES:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hllpD4Ay884

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ancient+hope+that+is+meant+to+be+fulfilled

    WHEN NIBIRU COMES AROUND THE SUN, IT WILL BE TRAVELIGN VERY FAST AS IT SLINGSHOTS BACK INTO SPACE IN ITS 3500 YEAR ORBIT. IT IS WHAT GOD USED TO CAUSE NOAH’S FLOOD in his time … AND REVELATION IN OUR TIME !!!

    IT WILL BLOCK THE SUN FOR DAYS OR WEEKS OR MONTHS, AND IT IS A RED DWARF STAR/SUN … THAT IS MUCH DARKER THAN OUR SUN … AND THE MOON WILL GLOW RED WITH ITS LIGHT!!!

    IT IS THE GREAT WONDER IN HEAVEN … IN REVELATION !!!
    TODAY YOU HEARD THE TRUTH, FOR A CHANGE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    SUGGESTED BIBLE READING: GENESIS 1-6, John 1, MAther 24, Ezekiel 38, Daniel, Revelation … THE BOOK OF ENOCH !!!

  • Char

    @Elaine, you get a hundred and a smiley face for your lesson on the 7 year tribulation. I just want to add to your very thorough lesson that we CANNOT be here because God will not mix law and grace together at that time. The Jews will return to the law and the body of Christ will be gone (which is by grace). Yep, we’re gonna be outta here real, real soon. PTL and God Bless!

  • Skywatcher

    To Greg,

    Most of what you have said in your comment (including your links) is true. However, after looking into Nibiru, one quickly discerns that it is nothing more than a fallacy. There is no proof of such. Sorry.

  • Skywatcher

    To ALL,

    Is it too much to graciously ask that you please kindly address the person to whom you’re replying or responding to? The comments are coming out randomly, and without this courtesy, many of them are confusing…
    Thank you! Blessings!

  • Pingback: How A Bible Believer Should Be Looking At This Weekend’s Blood Moon | Walker Ministries | Virginia Beach, VA()

  • Hadassah

    .

    There is an important relationship
    between this topic… and the new topic.

    http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=35935

    .

  • James

    Hey skywatcher, read Mark 21. According to this chapter Christians will be persecuted before the rapture. Study to show thy self approved, stop taking people’s word for the truth.

    • Skywatcher

      Hi there, James!

      Thank you, so very much for those kind words of encouragement! I’ll start that process right now, by not accepting your critical exhortation! I’ve probably been a student of God’s Word longer than you’ve been alive!

      Not once have I said that Christians would not be persecuted before the rapture! You need to learn how to read my friend. Christians have been persecuted for over 2,000 years! In Muslim countries, they’re being persecuted and killed for their faith in Christ everyday. You will get to see the sword put to action in your own country in a few more months, as Christians find nothing better to do than to tear each other apart in forums such as this.

      God Bless you, James as you seek for truth. In the meantime, if you’re a child of God, please remember…we are known as Christ’s disciples by our love for one another. He hasn’t called us to see through each other, but to see each other through.

  • Jewish Voice

    The odds of a Super Blood Moon seen over Jerusalem on the Feast of Tabenacles on the last day of a tetrad are astronomical. It has never happened before in history…The 1493-1494 Tetrad on the ninth of Av saw the expulsion of the Jews from Spain. The 1949-1950 Tetrad saw the creation of Israel after a bitter war that was nothing but a miracle. The Six Day War occured in the middle of the 1967-1968 Tetrad and again Israel acquired Promise Land…This time the War of Psalm 83 will probably occur within a year or two of the 2014-2015 Tetrad (Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1-2 and Ezekiel 29:12)…The God of Israel is telling His people, not you Gentiles, that He wants His Temple site back and wants a tabernacle or third temple build on the site.(note solar eclipses on Jewish holidays celebrating temple worship this year)…God wants to tabernacle again with His people…The Gentile Age is coming to an end.

  • Just me

    I live in Illinois and the weatherman just said that we will barely be able to see the “blood moon” from here. I will try to see it anyway.

  • AndrewA

    John

    Was not expecting to have a question so soon but I have one.

    You talk about who would repopulate the Millennium and listed a verse.

    Zechariah 14:16- “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is LEFT of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”

    How do you reconcile that with these verses:
    Matthew ch 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    2 Thessalonians ch 2:10-12

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    If all faithful are changed in the blink of an eye and all who are unsaved are removed at the same event.

    Then their is no one left at the end to repopulate and fulfill the Zecharia verse. Could you please explain more?

    • Hadassah

      .

      @Andrewa

      I will answer your question.

      When the dead in Christ are resurrected and the living in Christ are changed to their immortal bodies… we are all still physical creations and live in God’s Kingdom on earth… God’s New Jerusalem.

      .

  • Hadassah

    .

    This is interesting…

    First NASA comes out to say nothing will happen… now the Mormon church.

    ” Mormon church issues call for calm as ‘blood moon’ sparks apocalypse fears ”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/26/blood-moon-mormon-church-apocalypse-warning

    .

  • Skywatcher

    John et al,

    It’s simply amazing at how quickly people get boggled down on one or two points. Aren’t preachers teaching anything of real value these days. Let’s see if I can get this debate settled once and for all, as there are MANY supporting evidences for a pre-trib rapture that are NOT being touched upon thus far that really need to be. The same can be said for the post-trib position as well.

    I’m going to do up a paper that shows the arguments for and against the various points of view regarding the Rapture. After looking at all the angles, you will then have opportunity to make an educated and informed decision. This debate is NOT really accomplishing anything for the Kingdom and there is much circle-trotting going on, causing serious confusion.

    If you really want to know, PLEASE EMAIL ME and I’ll be glad to send you a copy of the information that I’m lifting word for word from J. Dwight Pentecost’s book, “Things To Come”. Be prepared to get excited at the end of it all! Email: scotianprince@eastlink.ca

  • carrierwave

    In the “context” of this prayer Jesus did not pray that God would take believers out of the world but protect them from the evil, BUT, Jesus is NOT SAYING here that believers would NEVER be taken out of this world.

    If Jesus prayed to the Father: “take my people out, now”, there would be no Gospel witness here on earth during the ‘church age’ and YOU and I would not be saved TODAY! Listen, the church is not needed during the last 7 years of history. There are prophesied that 144,000 are prepared for evangelizing then and the “two witnesses” during that time also, plus “saints” who will be martyred as a witness to the unsaved. There is even an “angel” evangelizing in the tribulation.

    Face the facts; Jesus has not ALWAYS “protected” every believer from the evil” of this world either. The apostles, and multitudes of christians have been slaughtered for the Name of Jesus Christ by wicked catholics and rulers of Rome and other nations, even TODAY. So, has Jesus prayer NOT been answered? The facts show Jesus prayer is not to be taken out of the context in which He said it.

    There was no ABSOLUTES in His prayer that ever stated: “Father, protect every last christian from all evils of this world.” He never said or meant that at all! And history proves He did not mean this either. Jesus said the “gates of hell would not *prevail* against his “church”. But many christians suffered and died from persecutions while God was perpetuating and prevailing against evil during the work of the church in general.

    Jesus also did not pray: “Father, never take any of my people out of this world”. Jesus NEVER SAID THIS EITHER. Well Jesus will resurrect the “two witnesses” and TAKE THEM OUT OF THIS WORLD in Revelation 11. So, it is plainly clear that it is not sound doctrine to say Jesus was supporting a “post-tribulation” view in HIS prayer! There are no “absolutes” spoken by Jesus in prayer to indicate He was! To seal the deal of a post-trib view because of Jesus’ prayer is simply ridiculous, and is only a preconceived notion to find support from John 17, which simply isn’t there!

  • Hadassah

    .

    ” Blood moon’ brings prophecies of end times – but Nasa says not to worry

    Overlapping lunar eclipse and supermoon have some religious leaders warning of a major turning point on Earth, though the details vary ”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/27/blood-moon-apocalypse-nasa-lunar-eclipse-supermoon

    .

  • Gary Davis

    People – waste you time for comments and worry warts about the war or destroy our america. Let to be ready to go Heaven with our Father. Make sure you need forgive yourself then ask God to asking for forgive. Accept Jesus in Christ if you believe in God. You will ask our Father and Jesus.

  • Skywatcher

    To John and All: I’m still working on my promised paper, which will be done in about an hour if you’d like to email me to get it.

    In the meantime, let this one major point help to clarify as to whether or not the blood-bought born again church of Christ will go into the G. tribulation:

    Since the church is the body, of which Christ is the head (Eph. 1: 22; 5: 23; Col. 1: 18), the bride, of which He is the Bridegroom (1 Cor. 11: 2; Eph. 5: 23), the object of His love (Eph. 5: 25), the branch of which He is the Root and Stem (John 15: 5), the building, of which He is the Foundation and Cornerstone (I Cor. 3: 9; Eph. 2: 19-22), there exists between the believer and the Lord a union and a unity. The believer is no longer separated from Him, but brought into the closest oneness with Him. If the church is in the seventieth week, she is subjected to the wrath, judgment, and indignation which characterizes the period, and because of her oneness with Christ, He, likewise, would be subjected to that same visitation! (emphasis added) This is impossible according to I John 4: 17, for He can not be brought into judgment again. Inasmuch as the church has been perfected and delivered from all judgment (Rom. 8: 1; John 5: 24; I John 4: 17), if she is subjected to judgment again the promises of God would be of none effect and the death of Christ would be ineffectual. Who would dare to assert that the death of Christ could fail to accomplish its purpose? While the members may be experimentally imperfect and need experimental cleansing, yet the church, which is His body, has a perfect standing in Christ and could not need such cleansing. The nature of the testing in the seventieth week, as stated in Rev. 3: 10, is not to bring the individual to cleansing, but to reveal the degradation and need of the unregenerate heart. The nature of the church prevents such a testing.

    • John

      There is too much to talk about here. I welcome you to join my FB group called “Three views on the rapture”, where I’d be happy to explain the problems I see with your reasoning.

      Peace.

      • Skywatcher

        John, I don’t go on Facebook for numerous reasons! Firstly, a future employer doesn’t need to know everything there is to know about me before a job interview. Secondly, it is a huge drag net, spread out there to build profiles on people by various policing agencies which cater to Big Brother/ the Beast.

        Should you be brave enough to get my theological notes, you’ll find out pretty quickly that your views were shot down a long time ago, my brother…by the Word! 🙂 That one point that I shared which prompted this response from you should be sufficient in and of itself: Your view agrees with the pope’s latest statement: “Christ failed on the cross”!

        If His word really is true and our sins are cast into His sea of forgetfulness, and separated from us as far as the East is from the West, never to be held against our account anymore… what kind of a lover of my soul is this Christ you serve that says I must be put through Hell to prove I’m pure enough for His acceptance? Something wrong here…

      • Skywatcher

        John, I forgot…my paper has 28 reasons why the Church cannot even enter the Great Tribulation, the Seventieth Week, much less be raptured out in the midst or after it!

        Free to all who ask: scotianprince@eastlink.ca It’s a real “MUST SEE”!

        • Skywatcher

          Hi there, John!

          You really need to learn to read a bit more carefully. I said, “my paper has 28 REASONS why the Church cannot even enter the Great Tribulation,…”, not 28 pgs. It’s actually 30 pages.

          You have me more than a little puzzled, my dear brother in Christ. Not once have I complained on this site, as you strongly allege in your opening remark. You have me confused because I NEVER did the following:

          “Complaining that Matt. 24 isn’t to the church, because of Jewish references, yet trying to plant a flag on John 14″…I have NEVER compared the two on this site. Sorry!

          As to the KJV and Post-trib. position, you’re waaayyy out in left field, my brother! The King James version (1611) not only lines up with John Tyndale’s 1526 first English version (as much as he was allowed to do before the R.C. cult killed him), but it also lines up WORD-for-Word with the copies of the original ancient manuscripts, of which we have thousands of copies today!

          You’re not only comical, but you’re to be pitied. You said, “Do you have selective reading? In Acts 1, the Lord went from Earth-to-Heaven on a cloud. He’s not coming from Heaven-to-sky, therefore, and doing a u-turn.”

          If what you say is true, then the angels must’ve been lying when he said to the boys standing there, gazing up into Heaven, “…Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN.” Acts. 1: 10, 11.How did He go? On a cloud!

          That seems pretty straight forward to me; no need to make it more complicated.

          Your argument is not with me, but with the Word! I Thess. 4:17 states, “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR…” I guess that means He does a prolonged “U-turn” as you call it! He is presently seated at the right hand of the Father. He IS coming back to receive us unto Himself, so that where He is, we can also be (John 14:3). This is a sudden evacuation of people! This is NOT seen by the rest of the world, like His Second Coming is.

          There are only two comings to this earth by our Lord: His birth and the Second Coming…which is part two of the Rapture! In the Rapture, we rise up to meet Him; in the Second Coming, we come back WITH Him (with His heavenly hosts/army) to rule and to reign. During the Rapture, He does NOT touch His feet to the earth; in the Second Coming, He sets His feet upon the Mount of Olives. Somebody on here foolishly attempted in their ignorance to slam Pre-tribbers by accusing us of purporting that Christ comes to the earth three times. That’s ludicrous! Theology is a great thing when one takes the time to “rightly divide the word of truth” and follow it carefully all the way through.

          On the Day of Pentecost, the Church was born, and Christ was already in Heaven. He had to wait there to mediate for us until the end of the age, at which time the Rapture will take us to be with Him…Home! Then, we have the 7 years of Great Tribulation, unlike anything we’ve seen to date, although, many of our dear brothers and sisters in other parts of the world have been enduring trials and tribulations for hundreds of years to the present day. To them, that is tribulation, but they KNOW it’s NOT the GREAT Tribulation because the Antichrist is not yet risen to power. He is in the wings, awaiting his debut in the very near future.

          You know, some people on this site have already received their copy of my “paper”; what’s holding you back? Afraid of what you may see, and you’ll have to eat some crow for supper? Ha haa! Of course, I’m saying that in a very loving and gracious manner! Voice intonations don’t carry too well in email or online posts.

          My paper will actually show you there is a huge difference between Israel and the church. Here’s another sneak peek for ya:

          H. The distinctions between Israel and the church. Chafer has set forth twenty-four contrasts between Israel and the church which show us conclusively that these two groups can not be united into one, but that they must be distinguished as two separate entities with whom God is dealing in a special program.

          These contrasts may be outlined as follows: (1) The extent of Biblical revelation: Israel—nearly four-fifths of the Bible; Church—about one-fifth. (2) The Divine purpose: Israel—the earthly promises in the covenants; Church—the heavenly promises in the gospel. (3) The seed of Abraham: Israel—the physical seed, of whom some become a spiritual seed; Church—a spiritual seed. (4) Birth: Israel—physical birth that produces a relationship; Church—spiritual birth that brings relationship. (5) Headship: Israel—Abraham; Church—Christ. (6) Covenants: Israel—Abrahamic and all the following covenants; church—indirectly related to the Abrahamic and new covenants; (7) Nationality: Israel—one nation; Church—from all nations. (8) Divine dealing: Israel—national and individual’ Church—individual only. (9) Dispensations: Israel—seen in all ages from Abraham; Church—seen only in this present age. (10) Ministry: Israel—no missionary activity and no gospel to preach; Church—a commission to fulfill. (11) The death of Christ: Israel—guilty nationally, to be saved by it; Church—perfectly saved by it now. (12) The Father: Israel—by a peculiar relationship God was Father to the nation; Church—we are related individually to God as Father. (13) Christ: Israel—Messiah, Immanuel, King; Church—Savior, Lord, Bridegroom, Head. (14) The Holy Spirit: Israel—came upon some temporarily; Church—indwells all. (15) Governing principle: Israel—Mosaic law system; church—grace system. (16) Divine enablement: Israel—none; Church—the indwelling Holy spirit. (17) Two farewell discourses: Israel—Olivet discourse; Church—upper room discourse. (18) The promise of Christ’s return: Israel—in power and glory for judgment; Church—to receive us unto Himself. (19) Position: Israel—a servant; Church—members of the family. (20) Christ’s earthly reign: Israel—subjects; Church—co-reigners. (21) Priesthood: Israel—had a priesthood; church—is a priesthood. (22) Marriage: Israel—unfaithful wife; Church—bride. (23) Judgments: Israel—must face judgment; Church-delivered from all judgments. (24) Positions in eternity: Israel—spirits of just men made perfect in the new earth; Church—church of the firstborn in the new heavens.
          These clear contrasts, which show the distinction between Israel and the church, make it impossible to identify the two in one program, which it is necessary to do if the church goes through the seventieth week. These distinctions give further support to the pretribulation rapture position.

          NO, this is not the whole paper; merely one small point! I also have a paper showing plenty of distinctions between the Rapture and the Second Coming if you would like a copy!

          No, I’m not a “conspiracy theorist”; I’m a conspiracy watcher, and there are plenty of conspiracies out there! Satan is working on every level to take as many souls to Hell with him as he can! To have someone ask me that question tells me they have their head buried in the sand and NOT really aware of all that is going on around them…

          People need to learn to distinguish between “theory” and fact! The church in these last days has been hoodwinked (King James English) and hijacked by the newer per-versions of the Holy Bible that are out there. These modern messes prepare the minds of the reader for the New World Order that is now dawning upon our planet. They have changed and distorted the Scriptures so badly that they are not called “Holy Bible” anymore, because they are anything but! To have homosexuals and Satanists on the translation team of the newer versions is NOT anything I would want to trust my immortal soul to. That’s not a conspiracy theory, that’s a fact. I can send you info on that too, if you’d like. I have a 32 pg. document I did up, exposing the backgrounds of some of these people on the translation teams, showing the errors, omissions, additions, and the brutalizing of our Lord’s deity, etc. Yours for the asking! You (all) have my email address which will provide you my name at that time! 🙂

          Our brother Geoff Grider’s site covers that quite well, so I’ll leave it alone for now.

          As for “being thrown into prison for commenting on a closed group”? I don’t have enough time to be on many public forums quibbling over things that will never be solved in that manner. Just be brave, John, bite the bullet, and get my info. God will never turn away anyone who needs to humble themselves and confess they made an error in judgment! Ha ha! Thanks, for keeping me on my toes and affording me victories that I otherwise would never have achieved! I have scores of other email, etc. I have to deal with!

          Blessings!

          • John

            Skywatcher,

            Perhaps you don’t get it. I provided a link to the 1611 KJV online. Let me repeat: The KJV translators were posttribulationalists, which is why they cross-referenced Matt. 24:29-31 with 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52-54. They would have laughed pretrib to scorn, brother, and you have a problem accepting that.

            I told you already: I’m not going to accept an invite for private email discussions. I’m far too busy. You’re more than welcome to join the group.

            Grace to you,
            John

    • sooz22

      Skywalker – how do we access your paper? I personally would like to read it.

      • Skywatcher

        Simply send an email to:

        scotianprince@eastlink.ca and I’ll have it to you within 1 minute of receiving your request!

        Blessings!

  • Jerry Piglover

    A very interesting thread indeed. It’s all very simple, though some here complicate it way to much. The Lord says his appearing will come “as a thief in the night”. This is obviously not talking about his second coming at the end of the tribulation. He will come in great glory then and every eye will see him. No this is talking about the rapture. And if the rapture were at the end of the tribulation those few Christians still alive would be counting down the hours of the seven years…hardly a thief in the night, don’t you think? The ONLY thing that fits is his coming right before the tribulation. A thief is sneaky and comes unannounced. Before it all hits the fan is the ONLY time he can fulfill this promise.

    • Hadassah

      .

      Christ comes back only once.

      Christ returns like a thief in the same way His OT archetype, Cyrus, conquered ancient Babylon like a thief… via a surprise attack.

      The Babylonians were taken by complete surprise… but the Israelites knew the 70 years was fulfilled and God would liberate His people.

      This is why Paul said:

      ” But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. ”

      1 Thessalonians 5:4

      .

    • John

      That’s incorrect. Paul said that the DoTL would not come like a “thief” upon those who are watching. In Rev. 16:15, at the 6th seal, when the armies are gathering to Armageddon, the Lord is telling us to “watch” for His coming like a “thief”. That parallels Matt. 24:42-44 and 1 Thess 5:2.

      • Hadassah

        .

        It appears you didn’t understand my Biblical analogy.

        .

    • John

      Correction: 6th vial.

      • Skywatcher

        Hi there, John! It’s been awhile! Please email me at: scotianprince@eastlink.ca and I’ll prove you 2000% wrong in your Posttribulation rapture theory! There is more evidence for it in God’s Word than there is against it! I DARE YOU or anybody else to ask me for it! I’ll gladly send it to anybody who really wants to know the truth. It took me at least 8 hours to type it up, but it was worth every minute of it, as I got refreshed in the arguments for and against the three differing theories that are out there! You’re about to have your world rocked right off the theological veranda, buddy! 🙂

  • Jewish Voice

    carrierwave, after the “few” saints are evacuted to heaven in the shadow of the nuclear World War Three (Isaiah 57:1, the last forty-two months of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 will be determined onto the Jews.,,It becomes a Jewish event…Who are the 144,000? They are the 12,000 Jewish young men from each of the twelve tribes of Israel who will be winning millions for our Lord during the Great Tribulation (Revelation 7:4-14 and 14:1-5)…Who are the two witnesses? They are Elijah (Malachi 4:5-6) and Moses who will be preaching to the lost sheep of Israel and completing the second half of the 70th week of Daniel 9:27. (Yeshua completed the first half in the First Century)…And who is the woman fleeing to the sanctuary God is proving out in the wilderness of Jordan (Revelation 12:6)? They are Messianic Jews.

    • carrierwave

      I would agree with you on those details, Thanks! God is specifically and primarily dealing with “Jacob” during the last 7 years. The over emphasis which does damage, is taking the 4 Gospels and sanitizing anything Jesus Christ said about future events as being “jew-only” references. Especially the book of John, which was written to strengthen and envangelize saints AND sinners, whether Jew or Gentile. John 20:31

      John 14 in particular, which is packed full of future references about Pentecost and the “new covenant” in Jesus Blood to the “church” consisting of Jew & Gentile believers. I am pre-trib by conviction. The over-emphasis of post-trib advocates is to obscure or erase any references the church’s uniqueness. THEY seem to want to bar Heaven of their presence at all costs during the last 7 years. Claiming those are “angels” accompanying Jesus in Rev. 19:14 (“which were in heaven” coming out of heaven). THEY MUST, at all costs change the identity of any beings in heaven resembling “saints” (born again) believers prior to Jesus’ return TO EARTH. Yet,I find that task impossible to do. 1Thess. 3:13 and Jude 1:14 Jesus comes out of heaven “WITH is “saints”. Yes, “angels” must be there too as they are the “reapers”, but post-trib have gone too far and have “Jacobized” everything they possibly can to stamp out “church” references. “Salvation is of the Jews”, yes! BUT when scriptures become billy-clubs to bash fellow christians with “jacobized” interpretation, to prop up post-trib beliefs, there is no way constructive “conversations” are possible. I find myself being drawn into “quarrels” and insults aimed to hurt and demean and not edify. That is where the Spirit is grieved. None of us have ALL the answers.

  • carrierwave

    Church age saints have “Christ’s righteousness”. Romans 3:23-25 Romans 10:1-4 Phil. 3:9 They have no need to be purified when Jesus washes us clean in his own Blood. We are ready for heaven and the kingdom when we are born again.

  • MRH

    For you see Joel’s “blood moon” is not a moon that turns an orangey-red glow. On the contrary, Joel’s blood moon is the actual moon turning to actual blood

    @Geoffrey Grider: Uhmm.. NO! The term blood moon is a visual descriptive of a darkened moon.. actually the entire sky will be darkened at once. As below comparison scriptures detail 😉

    Isa 13:9-11 KJV – Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    Eze 32:7-9 KJV – And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD. I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.

    Joe 2:1-2, 10 KJV – Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. … The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

    Joe 3:14-15 KJV – Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

    Mat 24:29 KJV – Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Rev 6:12-13 KJV – And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    P.S. What will cause the heavens to darken? Well there are a few possible scenarios; super-volcano, monster meteor, wildfires, pollution, mega-storms, and a nuclear holocaust. The latter is my bet, as it occurs in relation to the tribulation the end result of it. And we all should know that the next major war will be nuclear? 🙁

  • Jewish Voice

    Elsenhorn (DB – Nazi from Hell) unfortunately for you anti-Semites, God never reneges on any of His eternal promises to His chosen people in spite of their spiritual condition and will make Israel one of the greatest and most prosperous nations on earth before World War Three (Ezekiel 38:11-13)…Unfortunately for you anti-Semites, God will enable the Israelis to win the upcoming War of Psalm 83 (Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1-2 and Ezekiel 29:12) and, a few years later, World War Three (Ezekiel 38-39 and Isaiah 17:14)…Hell awaits you (Genesis 12:3).

    • Hadassah

      .

      If you were really a religious Israelite…
      you would not be so haughty… more than
      once God punished Israel for their sins…
      destroying Jerusalem and the temple.

      .

  • Razi

    As a Jewish girl studying Revelations along with our (Jewish) own prophecies which don’t agree at all with Christians prophecy, I can’t help noticing the Muslim imagery. Swords, false prophets, mass slaughter of innocents, one world forced religion. This is it. I would get ready, world. This is make or break it time. Nothing is easy. Especially not now.
    But know that you decided to be born now. On some level, something inside of you thought you were brave enough to survive this time. Because you wanted to be here now. When all of this went down. And we’ll be okay. Just hang onto Hashem, the G-d of Israel.
    He rules.
    You know it.
    Of course you do.
    Nothing is done without his say-so.

  • Dan

    Wasn’t the blood moon last night ? Did anything happen yet if it did.

    Not mocking just want to know if something else is suppose to happen with it.

    Because I got nothing here.

  • I was so blown away by the fact that while we were watching it so was Israel! It just goes to show how small we really are compared to God’s awesome and wondrous creation. I wonder how many believers actually took a moment of their time last evening and just thanked God for his unending love for us. Regardless of what is happening during this present time in our lives or what tomorrow brings we need to fix our eyes on our loving and never failing Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. When the time comes(I believe very soon)he will call us away.

  • Hadassah

    .

    There is another, third sign… stars falling from heaven.

    Rev 6:13

    ” and the stars of the sky fell to the earth,
    as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken
    by a great wind.… ”

    Matthew 24:29

    “Immediately after the distress of those days
    the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not
    give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. ”

    Mark 13:25

    ” the stars will fall from the sky, and the
    heavenly bodies will be shaken. ”

    **

    From the fiery mouth of Draco the Dragon = Draconid meteor shower

    This seems to dovetail with Rev 12… from the red dragon’s mouth comes a muslim horde flood against the women with a crown of 12 stars [EU symbol.]

    ” The maximum number of Draconid meteors are expected to fall on the evening of October 8.

    October’s Draconid meteor shower – sometimes called the Giacobinids – radiates from the fiery mouth of the northern constellation Draco the Dragon. Because the radiant is located so far north on the sky’s dome, this shower favors temperate and far-northern latitudes, such as the U.S., Canada, Europe and northern Asia. In 2015, the peak dates will probably be on the evenings of October 8 and 9, starting at nightfall. There’s no moon to obscure this year’s production, so it’s worth a look, although this shower is oftetimes a sleeper. Follow the links below to learn more about the Draconid meteor shower. ”

    http://earthsky.org/astronomy-essentials/everything-you-need-to-know-draconid-meteor-shower

    .

  • Skywatcher

    To Julie,

    You’re absolutely correct! This debate about a Pre-trib, Mid-Trib, or Post-trib rapture DID NOT happen! It was understood in Jesus’ day to be a Pre-trib rapture! He told them so Himself! Check out some of my latest postings and email me for the 28 evidences that support my position! The other two theories have only 3 or 4 arguments to back up their positions and they are quickly shot down!

    Don’t be afraid…just enter the email address and press the little key! No strings attached; your email is dumped after I send you the theological arguments for all three positions…for FREE! No sense for anyone to enter the argument if they don’t want to see the evidence that either supports or shoots down their belief, is there?

    • Crystal Lockwood

      Could you send me your reasons for pre trib? I used to be very afraid of the trib myself because I was post trib. I now ‘collect” pre trib defense now and it is comforting to me.
      Thanks 🙂

      • Skywatcher

        My pleasure! Just email me at: scotianprince@eastlink.ca

        This is overwhelming proof for you to be comforted by!

        • carrierwave

          Sounds interesting. THANKS

      • John

        Of course it’s comforting. That’s why it’s being peddled, and you’re falling for it. We were unambiguously warned about ear-tickling fables, and there’s nothing more ear-tickling than the notion that we’ll be whisked away before the really bad persecution starts. Satan isn’t a dummy. He wants a spiritually-unprepared church that’s ripe for the picking, so he can drag as many with him to the Lake of Fire as possible. How? By the mark of the beast. Wake up, people.

        Did the Lord ever describe coming before the trib? No.

        Did the Lord ever describe returning from Heaven at His second coming with anyone other than His angels? No.

        Did Paul say that the Lord comes before the trib? No. He was crystal clear that we’d first see the son of perdition enter into the Temple proclaiming himself to be God (2 Thess 2:1-4). Lo and behold, he was just reiterating everything the Lord said, as the Lord was clear that we’d see the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15) and experience the Great Tribulation.

        So desperate are these wolves in sheep’s clothing, that they have to hijack Rev. 4:1, thumb their collective noses at Rev. 22:18, and claim that Rev. 4:1 isn’t just about John being called “up hither” (only to end up right back on Patmos in the first century). Oh no! That’s obviously a pretrib rapture of the church! What defiant hubris! Adding to Scripture liberally. And guess what? There isn’t even any glorious appearing in Rev. 4:1. Only John being called up to an open door. What else? There is no preceding resurrection of the righteous dead anywhere to be found in Rev. 4:1 (see 1 Thess 4:14-17).

        What else does it need to hijack? Being that there is neither hide nor hair of any of the millions upon millions of “church saints” to be found in Rev. 5:11, when the rest of Heaven is worshipping around the throne, pretrib has to argue that we’re “represented by the 24 elders”. I guess the church us at recess in Rev. 5:11.

        What else does it need to butcher? In Rev. 3:10, it has to claim that “keep you from” means a whisking away, when the ONLY time those words are used together in the ENTIRE New Testament is in John 17:15, when those words mean exactly the OPPOSITE what these modern charlatans claim. Same speaker (The Lord); same author (John); same words (“keep” “from). That’s why no one prior to Darby ever took those words to mean anything else than what the Lord told us they mean: protection while we’re here:

        John Wycliffe (1320-1384): “Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us IN the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii” (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155).

        Matthew Henry (1662-1714): “Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ IN an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]” (Commentary, VI, p. 1134).

        John Newton (1725-1807): “‘Fear not temptation’s fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past'” (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).

        Albert Barnes (1798-1870): “…he will keep them IN the future trials that shall come upon the world [Revelation 3:10]” (Notes on the New Testament, p. 94).

        R. C. Trench (1807-1886): “…the Philadelphian CHURCH…to be kept IN temptation, NOT to be exempted from temptation…” (Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-184).

        Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910): “He will keep us IN THE MIDST OF, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]” (The Epistles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).

        M. R. Vincent (1834-1922): “The preposition [‘from’] implies, NOT a keeping from temptation, but a keeping IN temptation [Revelation 3:10]…” (Word Studies…, p. 466).

        H. Grattan Guinness (1835-1910): “…the Church is ON EARTH during the action of the Apocalypse…” (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136).

        H. B. Swete (1835-1917): “The promise [of Revelation 3:10], as Bede says, is ‘not indeed of your being immune from adversity, but of not being overcome by it'” (The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 56).

        I. T. Beckwith (1843-1936): “The Philadelphians…are promised that they shall be carried in safety THROUGH the great trial [Revelation 3:10], they shall not fall” (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484).

        I think Spurgeon said it best, regarding John Darby’s PRIVATE INTERPRETATION:

        “Distinctions have been drawn by certain exceedingly wise men (measured by their own estimate of themselves), between the people of God who lived before the coming of Christ, and those who lived afterwards. We have even heard it asserted that those who lived before the coming of Christ do not belong to the church of God! WE NEVER KNOW WHAT WE SHALL HEAR NEXT, AND PERHAPS IT IS A MERCY THAT THESE ABSURDITIES ARE REVEALED AT ONE TIME, IN ORDER THAT WE MAY BE ABLE TO ENDURE THEIR STUPIDITY WITHOUT DYING OF AMAZEMENT. Why, every child of God in every place stands on the same footing; the Lord has not some children best beloved, some second-rate offspring, and others whom he hardly cares about. These who saw Christ’s day before it came, had a great difference as to what they knew, and perhaps in the same measure a difference as to what they enjoyed while on earth meditating upon Christ; but they were all washed in the same blood, all redeemed with the same ransom price, and made members of the same body. ISRAEL IN THE COVENANT OF GRACE IS NOT NATURAL ISRAEL, BUT ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL AGES. Before the first advent, all the types and shadows all pointed one way—they pointed to Christ, and to him all the saints looked with hope. Those who lived before Christ were not saved with a different salvation to that which shall come to us. They exercised faith as we must; that faith struggled as ours struggles, and that faith obtained its reward as ours shall[22].”

        Darby’s other contemporaries echoed Spurgeon’s sentiments, even earlier:

        George Mueller (1805-1898): “The Scripture declares PLAINLY that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have taken place, and the man of sin…shall have been revealed…” (Mrs. Mueller’s Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).

        Benjamin W. Newton (1805-1898): “The SECRET Rapture was bad enough, but this [John Darby’s equally novel idea that the book of Matthew is on ‘Jewish’ ground instead of ‘Church’ ground] was WORSE” (unpublished Fry MS. and F. Roy Coad’s Prophetic Developments, p. 29).

        R. C. Trench (1807-1886): “…the Philadelphian CHURCH…to be kept IN temptation, NOT to be exempted FROM temptation…” (Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-184).

        Henry Alford (1810-1871): “Christ is on His way TO THIS EARTH [I Thessalonians 4:17]…” (The New Testament for English Readers, Vol. II, p. 491).

        John Lillie (1812-1867): “In his [Antichrist’s] days was to be the great—-the last—-tribulation of the CHURCH” (Second Thessalonians, pp. 537-538).

        F. L. Godet (1812-1900): “The gathering of the elect [Matthew 24:31]…is mentioned by St. Paul, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, 2 Thess. 2:1…” (Commentary on Luke, p. 452).

        S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875): “The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The SECRET THEORY bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation” (The Hope of Christ’s Second Coming, p. 71).

        C. J. Ellicott (1819-1905): “[I Thessalonians 4:17] ‘to meet the Lord,’ AS HE IS COMING DOWN TO EARTH…” (Commentary on the Thessalonian Epistles, p. 66).

        Nathaniel West (1826-1906): “[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built on a postulate, VICIOUS in logic, VIOLENT in exegesis, CONTRARY to experience, REPUDIATED by the early Church, CONTRADICTED by the testimony of eighteen hundred years…and CONDEMNED by all the standard scholars of EVERY age” (The Apostle Paul and the “Any Moment” Theory, p. 30).

        • Skywatcher

          John, you really break my heart man! You throw “fiery darts of the wicked” at me and others (in parenthesis) in your mad quest to be correct. You insist upon robbing these people of their joy and hope with errant teachings. You’ve taken the words of many great preachers and theologians here and twisted them so far out of context, that you don’t even have a limb to stand upon. By the end of your debate, you’ll have people doubting their faith in Christ with this kind of reasoning. I merely have to take a quick glance at your material and shake my head with dismay and utter disbelief.
          If these dear men of God could resurrect today and tell you what they actually meant in those statements, you’d be hanging your head in shame! They would smack you in the head for taking their statements out of context! They knew the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming!

          A relatively new Bible student can pick out the errors and inconsistencies that you purport to be truth, but in truth, it is far from it!

          You’re stubborn; you’re afraid to look at the overwhelming evidence…evidence offered by some of the men you’ve quoted here who stand up for the Pre-trib. Rapture! Why does it matter soooo much to you when the Rapture happens? Just be pleased that you’ll be part of that number who is called up!

          You’re confusing the Rapture with the Second Coming! You cannot eat your cake and have it too! It can only be one way, my brother! You’re taking the words of dear men of God who know the difference, and then blending them together as though the Rapture and the Second Coming are one and the same event. They clearly ARE NOT!

          Is there no shame? Stop with the confusion already!

          • John

            Quotes out of context? Are you kidding me? I CHALLENGE you to pull up their full quotes, and show me where ANY of these men were pretrib.

            I can’t say that I’m surprised. Your response to Scripture? Rhetoric. That’s the power of the deception you hold so dear. That’s why we were warned against false doctrines as being ear-tickling. Because they’re intoxicating.

        • carrierwave

          Innuendos, ramblings, 1800 years of traditions of men (big long list of them at the end), comic relief, hither and yon non-contextual jibberish.

      • THE BIBLE BELIEVER’S GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=32728

  • Skywatcher

    I hate to tell you this, Dan, but I saw the blood moon last night on my way up! It was fantastic! Why one could say it was right out of this world! It’s really something else to see it from above! So sorry you missed it! Got a place setting here on the table waiting for ya! 🙂

    Now, as for something to happen as a result of the blood moon…we’ll just have to wait and see, but not for long! The Muslims are buying up shares in Tylenol and stainless steel! That to me, is quite a huge side effect of the BM triad! They are infiltrating governments and government agencies in N. America…I don’t need any more signs to know that something horrible is on its way…is HERE!

    Judging from the Planetary Parliament’s website and the UN, they have much planned for us that the average Joe or Jane isn’t aware of. It could be the result of the blood moon triad…none of it is going to be very pretty! In fact, some of the things the governments have planned for us will defeat all of the arguments for or against the Pre-trib, Mid-trib or Post-trib supporters! We could be gone to glory before the Rapture even happens. If so, will that be the G. Trib? Nope! Just a birth pain…

    Yep! I saw the blood moon last night, and as I looked up at it, I said, “Lord, I’m so glad I’m yours and You are mine; I don’t depend upon the moon for anything. If you choose to use it as a sign board, then help me to get the message. If it’s an indicator that you’re coming for me soon, my suitcase is packed and I’m ready for the journey. Please help those Lord, who are still not ready. Please use me in this venture.”

    Whether or not there is any credence to the blood moon ideologies that are out there, one thing I can be sure of is this: each day I live is one less that I’m going to have. One day closer to leaving this sin-sick, morally and ethically bankrupt and disorder-riddled planet behind! One day closer to seeing my Lord and loved ones who’ve gone on before! I look forward to meeting all of you there! What a party we can have then; our faith will be sight and theology will be no more! For any of you fishermen out there…I hate to break it to you (as a fisherman myself), it will only be catch and release! Death doesn’t exist in the New Kingdom! 🙂 Thought I’d just throw that in there!

    • Dan

      Skywatcher,( is it so bad to witness tribulation from the ground up? ) I would rather gather those who would die for him. But I have no fear of tribulation .Christians would die for him , and they have 80 virgins. They don’t realize how crazy we are. It would be nice to see Christians come together and say enough is enough Washington / Supreme court.. At the very least we demand our government put us to work or take care of us ; right?

      • Skywatcher

        My dear brother, Dan,

        I’ve had more than my fair share of tribulation on this side of the clouds, but am willing to endure more if need be.

        I believe you misspoke when you said, “Christians would die for him , and they have 80 virgins.” Didn’t you mean Muslims! PLEASE SAY THAT’S WHAT YOU MEANT! Sometimes having one wife is too many; it would be sheer Hell to have 80 to contend with for all eternity! No offense to my sisters out there that are reading this! My wife could say the same thing about me!

        It is just as bad here in Canada as it is in the USA! One of our larger provinces, Quebec, is now trying to pass a law that anyone who dares to speak out or to write about Islam in a negative way can be fined up to $10K ! This province used to be predominantly R.C., but most of the older ones have passed on and the younger ones couldn’t give a fiddlers G-string about religion!

        The work situation in my country is getting pretty bad also. What are these so-called “refugees” going to do for work when they arrive on our shores? Oh! My bad! They’re all barbers; they’re going to be giving haircuts; one cut will do ya for life!

        Our laws are so perverse that it’s scandalous!

        Ooops! Got to go! Another person wants to read my paper on the Rapture theories!

        Blessings!

        • Dan

          Skywatcher , OOPs , yes its does read like I was saying Christians have 80 virgins.

          But I was comparing the two; Christian/Muslim .

          It is just as bad here in Canada as it is in the USA! One of our larger provinces, Quebec, is now trying to pass a law that anyone who dares to speak out or to write about Islam in a negative way can be fined up to $10K

          This is already happening in Europe so its no surprise Canada may allow it.

          Our constitution should protect the country from this nonsense.

    • MRH

      Now, as for something to happen as a result of the blood moon…we’ll just have to wait and see, but not for long!

      @Skywatcher: Several things could cause a blood (dark) moon and black (dark) sun effect; smoke, dust, vapor, and eclipses (solar, lunar). As for the recent celestial wonders, are they prophetic? We don’t know, as not all prophetic elements are listed in the bible. In fact only a minor amount is noted directly or indirectly in scripture. And so we need to keep that aspect in mind as we observe end time events unfold.

      As for rapture vs. tribulation, there is no easy way to prove things one way or the other. For one thing, none of the theories exactly match the biblical accounts. And that presents a big problem in and of itself. Below is my brief analysis of the 3 popular theories, their obvious flaws.

      1) Pre-trib: Tribulation is not Wrath
      2) Mid-trib: Tribulation hasn’t any midpoint
      3) Post-trib: Tribulation does not have the ‘mark’

      P.S. Solution: compare and contrast each theory with the others 💡

      • Skywatcher

        MRH, you’ve extremely over simplified it. If you will ask me for the paper I have done on the topic, you will quickly see that I have already done what you’ve suggested in your solution! The comparisons are made, and one can very easily reach a clear and logical conclusion in favor of a Pre-Trib. Rapture.

        Too often on here, people are confusing daily tribulation and trials (tests of faith and courage) with the Great Tribulation. There is NO comparison! That’s comparing apples to oranges.

        Blessings!

        TEST ME! Email me at scotianprince@eastlink.ca and see the proofs for yourself! They’re undeniable, biblical, and very encouraging!

        • MRH

          TEST ME! Email me at scotianprince@eastlink.ca and see the proofs for yourself! They’re undeniable, biblical, and very encouraging!

          @Skywatcher: I would consider offer, but 28 pages? That’s far more than my aged brain can handle, plus I’m a slooooow reader/writer 🙁

          Regarding tribulation, the term simply means trouble or distress. As for the Tribulation, it is a specific event involving Israel primarily. The problem is that people gloss over Matt 24:29, as though Tribulation continues. But you will see that Tribulation ends at verse 27.

          Mat 24:21-22, 27-28 KJV – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. … For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

          Stage #1 over; Tribulation, Rapture! Next verse implies Wrath, ending with stage #2; Wrath, Return! Does this make sense brother?

          Mat 24:29-31 KJV – Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          Now as far as Revelation 13, it partially compares to Daniel 11 (two kings, two beasts). Both accounts contain Tribulation (1st beast) and Wrath (2nd beast). Also note that the ‘dramatic return stage occurs after the Wrath, while the ‘subtle’ return stage occurs after Tribulation. Consider below critical passage 💡

          1Co 15:20-24 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

          According to above passage, the order of the first resurrection; Christ, Church, End. Remember that Tribulation precedes End 😉

          P.S. We are delivered before the worst effect prevails, and Wrath is that period. Also called; the end, the harvest, the last day, the day of the Lord, ect. Do you follow my drift yet?

  • Skywatcher

    Carrierwave, your response to Jewish voice was well stated and accurate. I really like your closing statement! “BUT when scriptures become billy-clubs to bash fellow christians with “jacobized” interpretation, to prop up post-trib beliefs, there is no way constructive “conversations” are possible. I find myself being drawn into “quarrels” and insults aimed to hurt and demean and not edify. That is where the Spirit is grieved. None of us have ALL the answers.”

    Well done, thou good and faithful servant!

  • tiptopsaidhe

    The 70th week of Daniel occurred after the 69th week of Daniel. Time wouldn’t have stopped. From the time Jesus was baptized until His death, given over by the son of perdition, was 3.5 years. From then until the stoning of Stephen, when the gospel was sent to the Gentiles was 3.5 years. Now read Daniel 9:27 in that light:

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    The Jews had exclusive access to the new covenant during the full seven years. Then, it was opened up to the Gentiles.

    Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Jesus told the apostles many of them would live to see it happen in their lifetimes.

    The temple sacrifices and oblation ceased to matter to God when Christ became the final and only acceptable sacrifice for sin. To make the point, God had the temple destroyed and the land made desolate in AD 70 when He removed the Jews into captivity. There will never be another temple built.

    I was reading an article on this site regarding the son of perdition, and that a spirit or reincarnation of Judas would emerge and set up leadership in some new temple as antichrist. It led me to another article from Clarence Larkin regarding dispensationalism. That led me to search the truth behind that, which led me to Francisco Ribera, a Jesuit priest who made up the entire rapture story based upon the dream of little girl. His intent was to deflect the rhetoric of the time (1500s) that the Catholic church was antichrist. Later, protestantism adopted the story and made it part of the Westminster Confession. Satan has fooled us and made his nonsense part of our creeds.

    7th Day Adventists used this and the 2300 number in Dan 8:14 to purport the 2nd coming in 1844, which didn’t happen. Reading it:

    Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
    Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    Christ assures Daniel that the trouble shall end; it shall continue 2300 days and no longer, so many evenings and mornings (so the word is). It says there will 2300 morning and evening sacrifices missed, or 1150 days, or just over 3 years. This comes nearer to the computation (Dan_7:25) of a time, times, and the dividing of a time. But it is less forced to understand them of so many natural days; 2300 days make six years and three months, and about eighteen days; and just so long they reckon from the defection of the people, procured by Menelaus the high priest in the 142nd year of the kingdom of the Seleucidae, the sixth month of that year, and the 6th day of the month (so Josephus dates it), to the cleansing of the sanctuary, and the reestablishment of religion among them, which was in the 148th year, the 9th month, and the 25th day of the month, 1 Macc. 4:52 (Matthew Henry). This is the span of time when Antiochus Ephiphanes desolated the temple. He did not burn and demolish the temple, but he cast it down, when he profaned it, made it the temple of Jupiter Olympius, and set up his image in it. God sent Antiochus to take away the daily sacrifice and cast down the place of his sanctuary (Mal 1:7,8; Mal 2:1&8). Judas Maccabees cleansed the temple and removed the graven images precisely as Daniel was told would happen.

    Knowing that much of the prophecies have been fulfilled in the end of the Mosaic law and the new covenant of Christ, maybe we could look at end times with different eyes.

    I am NOT saying Christ isn’t coming again, at a midnight, to bring His bride to the wedding. However, Jesus plainly tells us that nobody will know the day or time, and our lamps are to be filled with oil and we are to be watching and ready.

    Courage, as described in the Proverbs, is defined as what it takes for you to stand between the edge of the cliff and those who are hurtling towards their destruction.

    • MRH

      The 70th week of Daniel occurred after the 69th week of Daniel.

      A popular theory with some folk (SDA?) but I don’t think true unto scripture. However I’m not going to debate on things, as too many parameters to deal with 🙁

  • Skywatcher

    John, for the record, I didn’t invite you to an “email discussion”! I invited you to email me for a copy of the transcript, that you’re afraid to look at. That’s all! Take note of that, you folk who are debating this Pre-trib/Post-trib carrot that Satan has dangled out there to distract you with. John has much to say, but he’s NOT WILLING to look at the overwhelming evidence that refutes his position!

    When he does, I’ll let you know! Stay tuned! Why don’t you request your free copy and then you’ll have some legs to stand on in your ongoing debate with him! scotianprince@eastlink.ca

    Maranatha!

    • carrierwave

      I appreciate you SkyWatcher! If you have any study papers on “contextual interpretation” send that to John as well. lol!

  • carriewave

    John, inspite of your apparent innate character to throw insults at your brothers in Christ, the worst of it is your refusal to follow CONTEXTUAL order of the Words of God. Here again is another example of it, in which you get an “F”.

    You said: “See someone about the selective dementia.” (Another insult to a brother)

    “Again, Rev. 7 describes the multitude as wearing white robes, so attire doesn’t determine who returns with the Lord; the Lord decides. So for you to claim that “clean white linen” doesn’t match up well enough with Rev. 19:14, I’ve got the most shocking news in the world for you: neither does “white robes”.

    Revelation 7:9-14 is describing the SAME white robes worn by the Lamb’s wife, the “RIGHTEOUSNESS SAINTS”, and the white robes worn by armies on horseback. Look– vs. 14: “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have WASHED THEIR ROBES AND *MADE THEM WHITE* IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.” (WASHED AND BLEACHED FINE LINEN, JOHN) Why don’t you go back to school, John, and take a few courses in “CONTEXTUAL READING AND INTERPRETATION”. You need it.

    • John

      Carrierwave,

      You said: “John, inspite of your apparent innate character to throw insults at your brothers in Christ,”

      I’d suggest you take the plank out of your own eye before complaining about the splinter in someone else’s. In your first post to me, entering into a conversation I was trying to have with some ELSE, mind you, you said:

      “FAIL!”

      That’s hardly an effort at peaceful discord, so again, look in the mirror before you attempt to accuse someone else.

      You said: “(Another insult to a brother)”

      This is again selective amnesia on your part, in feigning righteousness. Here are your charitable words:

      “You got the wrong color, John, lol!!– you ARE contextually illiterate.”

      “You have a hard time with the KJV when reading complete sentences don’t you.”

      “Did I go too fast for you?? I’m sorry.”

      “NOW let’s read Revelation 18:16(slowly, John):”

      “So, again, FAIL. JOHN GOT THE WRONG COLOR.”

      Let me throw in your latest barb:

      “Why don’t you go back to school, John, and take a few courses in “CONTEXTUAL READING AND INTERPRETATION”. You need it.”

      So spare everyone the nonsense about what a “good little Christian” you are. You’re downright offensive. You’re an instigator.

      You said: “Revelation 7:9-14 is describing the SAME white robes worn by the Lamb’s wife, the “RIGHTEOUSNESS SAINTS”, and the white robes worn by armies on horseback.”

      No you don’t. If you’re going to argue that the attire of the angels in Rev. 15:6 is completely different than that of Rev. 19:14 because of you trying to be nitpicky with “linen” vs “fine linen”, then you have forfeited your right to assert that the “white robes” are synonymous with “fine white linen”, as they are clearly different words. Rev. 19:14 doesn’t say “white robes”. “Robes” is “stolē”.

      You said: “Why don’t you go back to school, John, and take a few courses in ‘CONTEXTUAL READING AND INTERPRETATION’. You need it.”

      I get it. “Contextual reading and interpretation” means that when your argument is shown to be flawed, it falls under the umbrella of “contextual reading and interpretation”. In other words, whatever you want it to be.

      I notice also how you made the claim that byssinos means bleached white from sin, but when shown that Babylon was described as having byssinos, you don’t even respond to the critique. So just pretend that your argument is still valid, and call it a day, eh?

      Here’s the real difference between you and I. I try to show how what the Lord said is true. You, on the other hand, try to find any reason you can to argue that what He said ISN’T true.

  • carrierwave

    Perfect! That’s right John, I was demeaning and rash. That’s right I said things that were unchristian, and rude that I shouldn’t have said. And that deserves an apology, so I apologize. Yet, you did exactly as I expected you would do; use the proverbial “plank” in the eye rebuke and thereby excusing yourself of your own discordant, rash, demeaning, rude, condescending words!

    John said: “So spare everyone the nonsense about what a “good little Christian” you are. You’re downright offensive. You’re an instigator.”

    Right back at you, Johnny! So, how do you like it? “Takes one to know one“, right?

    So, why are you dismissing what God says about attire and clothing in the scriptures?? What you call “nit-picky” are specific details the Holy Spirit purposely put there to be used as “doctrine”. All scripture is to be regarded as vital information to unveil the truth. Isn’t the attire of John the baptist, significant; leather belt, camel’s hair, and Elijah’s clothing give clues as to ‘who they are’ and their message, and place in prophecy? How about Joseph’s “coat of many color”. Let’s not forget the Lord Jesus’ “seamless coat” coveted by the Roman soldiers; a picture of His ‘perfect righteousness‘. And His “glorified clothing” at the transfiguration. How about Revelation 1:13-14?; the Lord ‘s foreboding, majestic attire is filled with prophetic and character revealing information to be used as “doctrine”. The same scrutiny and discernment MUST be employed for the clothing of the SAINTS and ANGELS which you have conveniently dismissed, yet are filled with meaning and identifying details. But, your attitude is appears flippant and careless when the scriptures gives great symbolic details!

    “FINE LINEN” (bussinos) and “linen” (λίνον) are very different, highlighted by the fact God uses separate descriptive Greek and Hebrew root words to define their differences. Yeah, God is being real “nit-picky” alright! Listen, I commented on your “critique” about Babylon, but your rejected it and told me to go for medical, “dementia” therapy! A big thank you, mr. “plank-in-the eye“.

    “Traditionally speaking, theologians have regarded “Babylon” the “city” and abode of everything wicked, to be the absolute antithesis of the “New Jerusalem” as “a bride “adorned” for her Husband (Rev.21:2) wearing a “bussinos” (Hebrew–“bleached or be MADE WHITE“) a picture of Christ’s RIGHTEOUSNESS imputed. I agree with them on this.

    Babylon “mockingly” wears a “bussinos”, yet trashes the “garment” and has dyed it with self exalting, self righteous “purple and scarlet” royalty. I pointed that out to you, that “scarlet and purple” are adjectives, modifying Babylon’s “bussimoss”, because of the Greek noun/adj. endings. Your attitude? “Go seek mental help”. The “bussinos” of Babylon is “dyed”, (stained) “purple and scarlet“–(royal sin). The “bussinos” of the BRIDE is IMPUTED “BLEACHED” WHITE RIGHTEOUSNESS!

    Now, inevitably, this brings us to the “bussinos” (“bleached”, made white RGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS!) clad armies riding horseback with Jesus, the “Word of God”! Oh, just forget the fact also, John, that “..The Lord “cometh” WITH “ten thousands of His saints”, to execute JUDGMENT…” Jude 1:14-15. And 1Thess. 3:13, Jesus, “at His coming” is accompanied by “ALL His SAINTS (wearing white “BUSSINOS”!).

    John! you are advocating a rather glaring impediment of the Post-trib lie! What in the world are “angels” doing clothed with white “bussinos” that only SAINTS and the LAMB’S WIFE are privileged to wear, symbolizing CHRIST‘S RIGHTEOUSNESS!??? God’s un-fallen angels only wear pure “λίνον” flax (linen) symbolizing “their own righteousness”. Rev. 15:6. Who’s righteousness do you think is better?? Their’s, or CHRIST’S??!

    Another thing, in the entire 19th Chapter of Revelation there is no mention of any angels EXCEPT ONE! Obviously, this angel must have been “thrown” off his horse! Instead he is “standing in the sun” (not riding a horse!) giving the “dinner menu” for the Armageddon!

    “DENIAL”, John! Those are SAINTS on those horses–which proves they were IN HEAVEN prior to Rev. 19:11, and in turn “RAPTURED” before the 7 last years!

    • John

      Matthew 16:27- “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his ANGELS; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

      Matthew 25:31- “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the HOLY ANGELS with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

      Mark 8:38- “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the HOLY ANGELS.”

      Luke 9:26- “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the HOLY ANGELS.”

      No bride emerging out of Heaven at the Lord’s second coming.

      Paul reiterated this, in the ONLY set of verses in which he SPECIFICALLY describes who returns with the Lord from Heaven:

      2 Thessalonians 1:7-8: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from HEAVEN with his mighty ANGELS, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

    • John

      John said: “So spare everyone the nonsense about what a “good little Christian” you are. You’re downright offensive. You’re an instigator.”

      Like I said, you started attacking me right from the start, so don’t play the martyr. That being said, if you apologize, I accept. And I likewise apologize for my tone.

      You said: “FINE LINEN” (bussinos) and “linen” (λίνον) are very different, highlighted by the fact God uses separate descriptive Greek and Hebrew root words to define their differences.

      You said: “wearing a ‘bussinos’ (Hebrew–’bleached or be MADE WHITE’) a picture of Christ’s RIGHTEOUSNESS imputed.”

      I’d like to know where you get this “bleached” definition.

      You said: “Babylon ‘mockingly’ wears a ‘bussinos'”

      I’d like to know where it says it’s done “mockingly”.

      You said: “The ‘bussinos’ of Babylon is ‘dyed’, (stained) ‘purple and scarlet’- (royal sin). The ‘bussinos’ of the BRIDE is IMPUTED ‘BLEACHED’ WHITE RIGHTEOUSNESS!”

      Again, you’re adding to Scripture. You did this with the “white robes” of Rev. 7 also. Nowhere does it say the fine linen is bleached purple and scarlet. In fact, it uses the conjunction “and” (Gk. “kai”) in between “fine linen” and “purple and scarlet”. So it’s clothed in “fine linen AND purple AND scarlet”. Not “fine linen bleached purple and scarlet”. No need to embellish.

      You said: “Oh, just forget the fact also, John, that ‘..The Lord ‘cometh’ WITH ‘ten thousands of His saints’, to execute JUDGMENT…’ Jude 1:14-15. And 1Thess. 3:13, Jesus, ‘at His coming’ is accompanied by ‘ALL His SAINTS (wearing white ‘BUSSINOS’!).”

      Trust me, I didn’t forget. Those aren’t “church saints”. The word the English renders “saints” is the Greek “hagios”. It means “holy”, “consecrated”. It’s uses to describe “the HOLY spirit”, “the HOLY city”, and anything else “holy”. In fact, it only refers to believers a minority of the time it’s used in the NT.

      More importantly, it’s the SAME word the Lord used in Matt. 25:31 to describe the ANGELS who come with Him at His second coming:

      Matthew 25:31- “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the HOLY ANGELS (“HAGIOS aggelos”) with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

      As an fyi, even the Septuagint shows it also refers to angels:

      Daniel 4:13,14- “I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one (Gk. “hagios”) came down from heaven; 14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit:let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:”

      Dan 4:13- “ἐθεώρουν ἐν ὁράματι τῆς νυκτὸς ἐπὶ τῆς κοίτης μου καὶ ἰδοὺ ιρ καὶ —>ἅγιοςἅγιοιἁγίαις<—αὑτοῦ,

      So Daniel 4:13 uses the same Greek "hagios" as does Zechariah 14:5, Matthew 25:31, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26, 1 Thess 3:13, and Jude 14.

      When is EVERY man rewarded? AFTER He comes with His angels:

      Matthew 16:27- "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his ANGELS; and THEN he shall reward every man according to his works."

    • John

      Read 1 Thess 3:13 again:

      1 Thessalonians 3:13- “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL his saints.”

      Who was Paul writing to? The Thessalonian church. If Paul meant the righteous dead come with the Lord from Heaven, it shouldn’t say “all”, because there would obviously be thousands-to-millions of saints here at the time of the Lord’s second coming. The only way that verse is grammatically and contextually correct is if the “hagios” being spoken of are the angels. Then yes, indeed, ALL of the “hagios” are coming with Him.

      The same holds true for Jude 14:

      Jude 1:14-15: “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

      This is virtually a direct quote from the noncanonical Book of Enoch (1:9). In that chapter, the ones returning with the Lord (the thousands) are angels (“watchers”).

      More importantly, look at Deut. 33:2:

      Deuteronomy 33:2- “And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.”

      Those are angels.

      Here is an interesting commentary from Matthew Henry, in which he addresses even Jude 14:

      “His retinue was glorious; he came with his holy myriads, as Enoch had long since foretold he should come in the last day to judge the world, Jude 14. These were the ANGELS, those chariots of God in the midst of which the Lord was, on that holy place, Ps. 68:17. They attended the divine majesty, and were employed as his ministers in the solemnities of the day. Hence the law is said to be given by the disposition of ANGELS, Acts 7:53; Heb. 2:2.”

      Psalms 68:17- “The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels:
      the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.”

      Jamieson, Fausset & Brown commentary (Regarding Jude 14):

      saints–Holy angels (compare Deu 33:2 Dan 7:10 Zec 14:5 Matt 25:31 Hbr 12:22 ).

      This isn’t some obscure teaching. It was the accepted teaching of the early church, up until only a couple of centuries ago.

      ADDITIONALLY, neither 1 Thess 3:13 nor Jude 14 say ANYTHING about “byssinos”. You are being dishonest.

      You said: “’DENIAL’, John!”

      Any particular reason why you put “denial” in quotation marks?

    • John

      You said: “Those are SAINTS on those horses–which proves they were IN HEAVEN prior to Rev. 19:11, and in turn ‘RAPTURED’ before the 7 last years!”

      First of all, Rev. 19:14 doesn’t say saints are on horses. It says “armies”, which is why we’re having this discussion. Rev. 19:7-11 is a wedding announcement:

      Revelation 19:7-9: “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.”

      1)The “multitude” of verses 1 and 6 are singing about the wife/bride in 3rd person singular (“herself”, “her”, “she”) rather than 1st person plural (“ourselves”, “us”, “we”), so they’re not singing about themselves.

      2)It says “the marriage of the Lamb is come”. As I pointed out before, “is come” is second aortist active indicative”. It’s about to happen. Do you know why this verse isn’t in Rev. 4:1, or right before it? Because the Lord doesn’t come for His bride in Rev. 4:1. Rev. 4:1 was John being called “up hither” in order to show him the things that were to come. There is no glorious appearing in Rev. 4:1. No resurrection of the dead. Only John saying he was called up. He then ended up right back on Patmos, still mortal. So no wedding announcement in Rev. 3 or 4. Not so much as any mention of any bride or marriage in Heaven until this announcement in Rev. 19:7-10.

      And after this announcement, do any verses describe a wedding or marriage supper in Heaven? No. The only thing that’s described after this announcement is the Lord leaving Heaven with His armies:

      Revelation 19:10-14: “And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. AND I SAW HEAVEN OPENED, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”

      Any description of an actual wedding or marriage supper going on there? No. Only the announcement, followed immediately by the Lord leaving Heaven. Why is that? Because the Lord is leaving Heaven with His angels in order to come rescue us:

      Matthew 16:27- “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his ANGELS; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

      Matthew 25:31- “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the HOLY ANGELS with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

      Mark 8:38- “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the HOLY ANGELS.”

      Luke 9:26- “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the HOLY ANGELS.”

      No bride emerging out of Heaven at the Lord’s second coming.

      Paul reiterated this, in the ONLY set of verses in which he SPECIFICALLY describes who returns with the Lord from Heaven:

      2 Thessalonians 1:7-8: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from HEAVEN with his mighty ANGELS, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

      This is clearly Armageddon. Yet who did Paul say is coming “in flaming fire”? The church? The “bride”? No. The “mighty angels”. In fact, Paul has us right here until the Lord’s second coming.

      But let’s just say that you’re right. Let’s say, for the sake of discussion, that the “armies” really are “church saints”, and that “white robes” means the same thing as “fine linen”. How would that prove a pretrib rapture, when the first time we read about a “multitude” in Heaven is in Rev. 7, which is AFTER the 6th seal heavenly signs that the Lord said would come “AFTER the tribulation of those days” (Matt. 24:29)?

      • MRH

        @John: Several important elements that everyone misses. The glorious appearance occurs after the wrath, not after the tribulation. The wrath occurs after the tribulation, and the rapture occurs at the end of tribulation. This means that the saints whom return with Jesus to execute judgment on the world includes all the holy orders; angels, saved. Therefore the second coming involves two distinct stages, before and after wrath. The tribulation marks the end of mans rule. Also the mark of the beast is a wrath not tribulation event.

        Furthermore all whom obey the gospel are eternally saved from all wrath effect, but not from any tribulation effect. Now if you desire biblical proof on all these points I will be happy to engage in amicable debate, but I don’t want to get into a raging pointless battle. Your call in offer matter, and also please relax. Both Jesus and Paul instruct us not to worry, but simply to; watch, wait, and pray 🙂

        Mar 13:7, 33 KJV – And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. … Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

        1Th 1:10 KJV – And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

        1Th 5:2, 4, 6, 9 KJV – For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. … But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. … Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. … For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

        • MRH

          @carrierwave:

          Book of Enoch? There is no such biblical evidence of a “book” authored by Enoch…

          Then how did Jude quote from it? Likewise Jasher was quoted from. However neither book was canonized, along with other Apocrypha. Therefore the church naturally rejects external works regardless if legitimate 🙁

          I firmly believe Enoch was referring to “The SAINTS” (made in the image of God human “believers”) and not angels in his “prophecy”.

          Uhmm.. NO! In the resurrection we become as the angels.. spirit bodies.. no difference. Read 1 Cor 15 😉

          You need to remember God “took” Enoch, an O.T. “saint”, in a Pre-Flood RAPTURE…

          Nope! Hebrews states that Enoch ‘died in faith’ along with the others on list 🙂

          Jhn 3:13 KJV – And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

          Act 2:34 KJV – For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

          Heb 9:27 KJV – And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

          P.S. Only at the resurrection will there be those whom escape death 😀

          • carrierwave

            Oh, so you need your contextual eyeglasses repaired too? Read the context Matthew 22:30

            “In the resurrection they NEITHER MARRY, NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE but are as the angels of God in heaven.”

            The context? In Heaven, born again believers don’t marry or give in marriage; that does not mean we’ve turned into ANGELS. Lol!

            “Enoch died in FAITH”? NO. “By FAITH Enoch was translated “THAT HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH”.. Hebrews 11:5 So, are you going to call God a liar, because of verse 13? Explain what happened to him.?? (It never said he went to God’s abode in Heaven, neither do the scriptures say where he was relocated.) Twice in the scriptures God says Enoch was translated and “never died”. One verse states those that “died,” died in FAITH; Enoch was translated and “did not see death” BY FAITH.

            Jhn 3:13 KJV – And no man hath ascended up to “HEAVEN”

            Act 2:34 KJV – For David is not ascended into “THE HEAVENS”

            Heb 9:27 KJV – And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die,

            Instead of making God a liar, is it possible God knows a few things you don’t? Enoch may be one of the “two witnesses” or some other plans you are not aware of, right?

            “Behold, I shew you a mystery, WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP (die); but we shall be CHANGED,” 1 Corinthians 15:51

            Going to call God a liar here also.? God is God, he makes exceptions where he deems fit. No need to make God out to be a liar. Right?

            Folks, here is a perfect example, and this proves just how desperate post-trib advocates are; mangle and tangle the word of God to make it fit post-trib, no matter if it makes out God to be a liar, or even if it is in direct opposition to what the Lord says.

      • carrierwave

        I want to first address this one specific topic:

        This notion being suggested about the Greek word “hagios” is simply not true, and no thinking person should buy into this for one minute.

        Over 60+ times in the New Testament “hagios”, the “NOUN”, is translated “SAINT” or “SAINTS”, and being used used as a NOUN, in EVERY case, it refers to “the brethren in Christ”! However “hagios” is also used as an ADJECTIVE to “describe” something such as a “holy” angels or “holy Father”, “holy sanctuary”, “holy mountain”, etc.

        BUT WAIT A MINUTE! It is simply absurd to suggest the ADJECTIVE “hagios” gives license to refer to any angelic being and and make it synonymous with the word “SAINT” as a NOUN! An angel is a being, but the ADJECTIVE “hagios” is not a “saint” nor is it an “angel”; it an ADJECTIVE. This is an ambiguous juggling act using noun/adjective replacements, and is certainly not going “keep saints out of heaven” to preserve a faulty post-trib doctrine!

        Jesus is coming with “ALL His SAINTS”. Here, SAINTS is a “noun” in this verse. There is NO support for this in the English translation, nor especially in the Greek that an ADJECTIVE, “hagios” makes “angels” SAINTS, the NOUN. Let me illustrate with this ambiguous, and erroneous scenario: “Since all new cars are “SHINY”, therefore, anything that is “SHINY” MUST be a new car.” That is the bottom line to this false teaching.

        It is ridiculous to assume, when see the word “SAINT” or “SAINTS”, as a noun, in the Bible it MUST be angels“. Oh really?? The facts from the Bible prove otherwise. Romans 15:25 “But now I go to Jerusalem to minister to the SAINTS”. We are “called to be SAINTS”. Does that make us “angels”? NO. Is Paul “really” ministering to “angels”, since angels are “holy”? NO. There is the falsehood. Those references to the ADJECTIVE “holy” in regard to angels coming with Jesus, cannot automatically make them SAINTS, (brethren in Christ) the noun. “Holy” angels are not saved sinners!

        Go ahead and look up every time the “noun” SAINT or SAINTS is used in the N.T.,it is ALWAYS used to refer to the saved “brethren in Christ”, and to use the ADJECTIVE “holy”, modifying angels, gives no biblical grounds to call them SAINTS (saved sinners). By implication, SAINTS are SAVED SINNERS made RIGHTEOUS by HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and is synonomous with “the brethren” in Christ. It is “SAINTS” (SAVED sinners) that are coming “from” heaven with Jesus: (Jesus comes out of Heaven when He comes again, and He comes “WITH ALL HIS SAINTS“ (noun) the “Brethren in Christ Jesus“. Angels are coming, but they are not SAINTS, brethren in Christ! God’s Angels are “holy” (ADJECTIVE) by there nature and were never sinners, but ALL GOD’s angels are not SAINTS, NOUN, meaning saved sinners.

        • John

          That’s it? That’s your riveting argument? I think you wasted time, and also ignored the facts, while straining at gnats.

          First of all, “hagios” is listed as an ADJECTIVE, even when it’s used as a noun, so the meaning doesn’t change when describing an angel verses a believer. There is NO instance in which it’s suddenly listed as a noun. It still means “most holy” or “consecrated”.

          Secondly, I don’t know where you’re getting this “saved sinners made righteous”. That’s a fictitious definition made up by you. It would be ABSURD to suggest that in noun form, it refers to one thing, but when in adjective form, it must be referring to something else altogether. Let me show you how Thayer’s Lexicon defines it:

          “(1)b. of persons whose services God employs; as for example, apostles, Eph. iii. 5; ANGELS, 1 Th. iii. 13; Mt. xxv. 31 [Rec.]; Rev. xiv. 10; Jude 14”

          Well, would you look at that? It lists 1 Thess. 3:13 and Jude 14 as referring to angels as well. Go figure. That apparently contradicts the “Carrierwave Lexicon”.

          Thirdly, it’s not all that surprising to me that you ignored the FACT that in the Septuagint (which was most certainly in widespread use during the Lord’s earthly ministry, Daniel 4 uses the SAME Greek word as a noun to refer to angels. Here, let me post this yet again:

          Daniel 4:13,14- “I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one (Gk. “hagios”) came down from heaven; 14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit:let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:”

          Dan 4:13- “ἐθεώρουν ἐν ὁράματι τῆς νυκτὸς ἐπὶ τῆς κοίτης μου καὶ ἰδοὺ ιρ καὶ —>ἅγιοςἅγιοιἁγίαις<—αὑτοῦ,

          So Daniel 4:13 uses the same Greek "hagios" as does Zechariah 14:5, Matthew 25:31, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26, 1 Thess 3:13, and Jude 14.

          And let me also post yet AGAIN, what even commentaries say about 1 Thess. 3:13 and Jude 14, which you apparently ignored:

          This is virtually a direct quote from the noncanonical Book of Enoch (1:9). In that chapter, the ones returning with the Lord (the thousands) are angels ("watchers").

          More importantly, look at Deut. 33:2:

          Deuteronomy 33:2- "And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS: from his right hand went a fiery law for them."

          Those are angels.

          Here is an interesting commentary from Matthew Henry, in which he addresses even Jude 14:

          "His retinue was glorious; he came with his holy myriads, as Enoch had long since foretold he should come in the last day to judge the world, Jude 14. These were the ANGELS, those chariots of God in the midst of which the Lord was, on that holy place, Ps. 68:17. They attended the divine majesty, and were employed as his ministers in the solemnities of the day. Hence the law is said to be given by the disposition of ANGELS, Acts 7:53; Heb. 2:2."

          Psalms 68:17- "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels:
          the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place."

          Jamieson, Fausset & Brown commentary (Regarding Jude 14):

          saints–Holy angels (compare Deu 33:2 Dan 7:10 Zec 14:5 Matt 25:31 Hbr 12:22 ).

          You said: "Jesus is coming with 'ALL His SAINTS'. Here, SAINTS is a 'noun' in this verse. There is NO support for this in the English translation, nor especially in the Greek that an ADJECTIVE, 'hagios' makes 'angels' SAINTS, the NOUN."

          Allow me to reiterate once again, that you'll never find "hagios" defined as a noun, or described as having a different meaning when USED as a noun.

          You said: "It is 'SAINTS' (SAVED sinners) that are coming “from” heaven with Jesus: (Jesus comes out of Heaven when He comes again, and He comes 'WITH ALL HIS SAINTS' (noun) the 'Brethren in Christ Jesus'."

          You know, the fact that you put things in quotation marks, as if that's how 1 Thess. 3:13 defines it? That's an outright lie. Let me say AGAIN, that neither the Lord nor Paul ever got your memo. The Lord NEVER described anyone other than His angels emerging out of Heaven at His second coming. Neither did Paul, in the ONLY verse in which He specifically describes who emerges out of Heaven at the Lord's second coming (2 Thess. 1:7-10).

          Deal with it.

          By the way, regarding 1 Thess. 3:13:

          1 Thessalonians 3:13- "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints ("hagios")."

          That verse would make no sense if we're the "hagios" who come back with the Lord at His second coming. Otherwise, why would Paul need to pray for our hearts to be made "unblameable" at that time? Weren't they made "unblameable" seven years prior (at a "pretrib rapture")? No, the only way that verse makes any sense is if we're here when the Lord comes back with His "holy ones" (see Matthew 25:31). Then it makes all the sense in the world for Paul to be praying for our hearts to be made "unblameable"…"at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints."

          • carrierwave

            Book of Enoch? There is no such biblical evidence of a “book” authored by Enoch, and the one that exists today or during the so-called ’church fathers’ is obviously a fraud, and is borne out of man’s invention and tradition and not Enoch’s actual authorship. Even the “quote” Jude 14 gives is simply “a prophecy” according to Jude, which was made by Enoch and could have been easily handed down verbally through the saints of God to Jude. I take Enoch’s quote as true, because it is found in Jude 14 in the English KJV, but to go beyond and attempt to assimilate the rest of the spurious “book of Jude” as Holy Spirit inspired is plainly farcical. By the very nature of this evidence I firmly believe Enoch was referring to “The SAINTS” (made in the image of God human “believers”) and not angels in his “prophecy”.

            You need to remember God “took” Enoch, an O.T. “saint”, in a Pre-Flood RAPTURE which is evidence God is in favor of doing the same before tribulation and judgment in the Last Days, which Jesus used as a “sermon illustration” of that same truth! I am a little surprised you would actually field an attempt to employ the witness of Enoch, who is a pre-flood “rapture” O.T. participant, to add weight to the post-trib nonsense.

        • John

          Carrierwave,

          I’ve got the most shocking news in the world for you. Enoch was “taken” exactly 669 years before the flood. That’s akin to saying the church is raptured in the year 2015 to “imminently save it from a tribulation that begins in the year 2700.

          Good luck with that.

  • Jennifer Johnson

    I thought this was a reliable reporting source until reading Grider’s post on Oct 1 2015, which has since been removed with no response from Grider, maybe you still have it in your email..just wanted people to know to verify his reporting. Here’s the post in case you missed it..

    Oregon Mall Shooter Jacob Tyler Roberts Targeted Christians For Killing
    by Geoffrey Grider
    The gunman who killed two innocent victims after opening fire at an Oregon shopping mall on Tuesday has been identified as a 22-year-old man who friends claim was hoping to move to Hawaii until plans fell through just days ago.
    Jacob Tyler Roberts, wearing a load-bearing vest and a white hockey mask, ran into Clackamas Town Center near Portland on Tuesday and opened fire with an AR15 rifle he had stolen from an acquaintance the day before.

    He killed two people at random in the food court – nurse Cindy Ann Yuille, 54, who was shopping, and married father-of-two Steven Mathew Forsyth, 45, who owned a small business in the mall.

    jake-roberts-oregon-shooter-targeted-christians-closet-homosexual-lgbt-killer
    “The shooter was lining people up and asking if they were Christian,” she wrote. “If they said yes, then they were shot in the head. If they said no, or didn’t answer, they were shot in the legs. Once they all got down, she said the gunman began asking people to rise and say what their religion was. After they stood and gave their answer, he started shooting.

    Another victim, 15-year-old Kristina Shevchenko, was struck by a bullet in her chest and remains in hospital in serious condition. While police have not yet revealed a motive, a friend told The Oregonian that Roberts had recently sold all his possessions as he planned to move to Hawaii – but had missed his flight.

    The man, who would not give his name but was at the home where the shooter’s possessions were registered, said Roberts ‘couldn’t stop talking about’ his planned move. But ‘four days ago he called to say he had missed his flight’ and the man has not heard from him since, the paper reported.

    Asked if Roberts could have been depressed and snapped, the man replied: ‘I think that’s exactly what happened.’

    Colleagues at his workplace, Big Bertha’s sandwich shop, said they were surprised when he handed in his notice in November. But he told them he had inherited money for a relative and planned to use it to go to Hawaii, travel and see if he wanted to live there.

    On his Facebook profile, Roberts wrote that he worked at a gyro shop and attended Clackamas Community College. ‘I’m the kind of person that is going to do what I want,’ he wrote. source

    • MRH

      I suspect the removed article was an accidental mixed-up posting as mostly involved an older incident not a recent one. I Googled things and the incident was in 2012 😉

      Jacob Tyler Roberts | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of …
      murderpedia.org/male.R/r/roberts-jacob-tyler.htm
      Jacob Tyler Roberts was a masked gunman who opened fire in a crowded Oregon mall on December 11, 2012 killing two people and wounding a third before …

      Below is the intended recent incident…
      http://nypost.com/2015/10/01/oregon-gunman-singled-out-christians-during-rampage/

  • carrierwave

    “First of all, Rev. 19:14 doesn’t say saints are on horses. It says “armies”, which is why we’re having this discussion. Rev. 19:7-11 is a wedding announcement:”

    Be real, John. You have claimed these are “saints” and have said thesethese saints are “angels” on these steeds. So, you are denying it now? Born again Christians, (the brethren in Christ) are called “saints” in noun form, over 60 times in the New Testament, while angels in the N.T. take the adjective form of “hagios” only 4 times in the N.T. Furthermore, Christian “saints” have “Christ’s Righteousness“ Romans 1:17, Rom.3:22, Rom. 3:25-26, Rom. 10:1-4, Phil. 3:9. Also called “fine linen, white and clean” (bussinos, a Greek word with Hebrew root “to bleach and make white“) God here, is speaking of the “Bride” and Her vesture: “For the *fine linen* (bussinos) is the Righteousness of SAINTS.” Rev. 19:8. This same (bussinos) bleached “white and clean” garment is worn by the “armies which were in Heaven, followed Him on white horses.” Why are they wearing the ‘BRIDAL/SAINTS ATTIRE’ which is the “RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST” worn by the BRIDE in Rev. 19:8 if they are angels?

    Heavenly angels are not the saints, “brethren in Christ”; they were never sinners, nor need the BLOOD of Jesus Christ to “wash” their garments. Therefore they wear pure, white λίνον, that reveals their *own righteousness*. Rev. 15:6

    The angels “desire”, “long“, “fain“, “bend to look into our “imputed, Christ righteousness” in the Gospel” 1Peter 1:12

    You have also claimed that Rev. 19:7-11 is ONLY a “wedding announcement”. This is post-trib nonsense and a purposely short sighted attempt, simply to keep the BRIDE (saints) out of heaven, by ignoring details in those passages which prove the opposite.

    The announcement is that the Lamb’s wedding “is come”, not as you put it, “is about to happen”. That is a woeful and erroneous rendition of the “arorist” tense which any “honest” Greek speaking person or student knows! The Greek “arorist” is “punctiliar” or pinpointed ACTION, where the entire motion, (the wedding) is brought into focus. 2nd “arorist” active indicative, simply means the action indicated “the wedding”, IS HAPPENING, and the “arorist active indicative” focuses on the “completed action” (“the Wedding“) like a “snapshot” of the event. On the contrary, the “present and imperfect” make the action into a “movie”. You are purposely ignoring God’s order here; by attempting to change the “arorist” into a present or imperfect tense placing the wedding as a long movie AFTER the second coming, following a myriad of other events! The “wedding” is an “arorist” occasion. And you accuse me of “adding to the Word“? (“There is NO difference between the “1st and 2nd “arorist” meaning.”) You are further confusing the “wedding” by implying there is some “ceremony” to be witnessed. FAIL. The consummation of the union of bride and groom happens in the “Wedding Chamber” privately! No picture taking allowed! If you are married, did you invite the photographer into your “wedding chamber”??

    More evidence is found to exemplify a pre-2nd coming Heavenly BRIDE/wife scenario. If you want to duel it out with KJV scholars, you are going to get egg on your face. The translators rendered “γυνή” purposely, as “wife” because of the “arorist” event. Also, she “HATH MADE HERSELF READY”,(past tense). THIS scenario is not possible in a pot-trib setting; the “bride” needs to be rescued first and is still being martyred, and chased by anti-christ on earth. In our ENGLISH, and that of the translators, “wife” is the after status of the BRIDE whose wedding “IS COME” (arorist) a “completed event”in Heaven Rev 19:7.

    • carrierwave

      The above information comes from “Workbook of Greek Grammar of the New Testament” by David Fink and “Molton’s Analitical Greek Lexicon 2nd 1978 Edition”. (Zondervan) which I studied in a 2 year span in college.

  • carrierwave

    John, take off your contextual-challenged blinders! Deciphering truth by reading only what you want to read, then ignore the rest of the verse, or chapter, or all other truths related to it, because it conflicts with your position, is the wrong attitude to take.

    Enoch, being “seventh” from Adam, is extremely significant in prophecy, and taking into account that life expectancy ‘at that time’ was 800-900 years, makes Enoch a fitting “pre-flood rapture” character and a spiritual “type” of pre-tribulation rapture saint. As a side note: Suppose Enoch had been “raptured” at “mid-flood” or “post-flood”; I guarantee mid-trib or post-trib adherents, like yourself, would be heralding Enoch around as your “poster-boy”, no doubt!

    Borne out in Enoch’s life is the fact that at 65 years of age he fathered a son named “Methuselah”. This name Enoch, or God chose, reflected a defining moment in Enoch’s life. Methuselah, in Hebrew, means “his death shall bring, or send it”. After Methuselah’s birth, Enoch spent the next 300 years “walking with God”. If you can remove your post-trib blinders for a moment and think; Enoch MUST have been given a preview of the coming Judgment in a vision or verbal warning from God, and was informed he was going to be “removed” from the scene before it came, and when his son died, “IT SHALL COME or BE SENT“. Enoch, by FAITH, believed God, and thus, the name “Methuselah”and from that point on “he walked with God”. Methuselah bore a son named “Lamech” which means “despairing” or to “lament” ie. devastation and sorrow of those swallowed by the FLOOD!

    Now in Hebrews 11:5 says the exact same thing; By FAITH Enoch walked with God and was “raptured”. Three times, “translated/translated/translation” (raptured) is spoken in verse 5. Jude 14 also states Enoch was prophesying during that time and talked about the 2nd coming of Christ and God’s judgment. If you cannot see the correlation of all these events and Enoch’s pre-flood rapture, Methuselah’s name “translated, translation”, Lamech “despairing”, and last days in Jude 14, you have a much deeper problem.

  • MRH

    @carrierwave:

    carrierwave says:
    October 7, 2015 at 12:50 pm
    Oh, so you need your contextual eyeglasses repaired too? Read the context Matthew 22:30

    “In the resurrection they NEITHER MARRY, NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE but are as the angels of God in heaven.”

    The context? In Heaven, born again believers don’t marry or give in marriage; that does not mean we’ve turned into ANGELS. Lol!

    Uhmm.. maybe you should read your bible better 💡 😉

    Luk 20:35-36 KJV – But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    1Co 15:42-45, 48-49 KJV – So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. … As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Question: Are not angels spirits? Answer: Yes 😉

    Note: Jesus after his resurrection became a ‘spirit’ (angel).. in form 😉

    “Enoch died in FAITH”? NO. “By FAITH Enoch was translated “THAT HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH”.. Hebrews 11:5 So, are you going to call God a liar, because of verse 13? Explain what happened to him.?? (It never said he went to God’s abode in Heaven, neither do the scriptures say where he was relocated.) Twice in the scriptures God says Enoch was translated and “never died”. One verse states those that “died,” died in FAITH; Enoch was translated and “did not see death” BY FAITH.

    Uhmm.. you forgot second part of passage. Also it it doesn’t say he didn’t die. It says he didn’t ‘see’ death 😉

    Gen 5:23-24 KJV – And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

    Heb 11:5, 13 KJV – By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. … These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    †εἴδω eídō, i’-do; a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent G3700 and G3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:—be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare G3700.

    Well according to below, Jesus is the only one presently in heaven besides the angels.

    Jhn 3:13 KJV – And no man hath ascended up to “HEAVEN”

    Act 2:34 KJV – For David is not ascended into “THE HEAVENS”

    Heb 9:27 KJV – And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die,

    The implication in all three full verses is the resurrection 😉

    Instead of making God a liar, is it possible God knows a few things you don’t? Enoch may be one of the “two witnesses” or some other plans you are not aware of, right?

    Maybe or maybe not, scripture doesn’t say. However Revelation is symbolic, and a ‘candlestick’ represents a ‘church, while an ‘olive tree’ represents ‘Israel’.

    Rom 11:24 KJV – For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    Rev 1:20 KJV – The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Rev 11:3-4 KJV – And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    I believe the above holds a key unto the tribulation and rapture mystery. also notice that ‘two’ becomes ‘four (two + two)’ in 3rd passage? 😉

    “Behold, I shew you a mystery, WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP (die); but we shall be CHANGED,” 1 Corinthians 15:51

    Going to call God a liar here also.? God is God, he makes exceptions where he deems fit. No need to make God out to be a liar. Right?

    The change will result in same end effect for both the dead and living. But scripture doesn’t detail things, and will be the greatest miracle of all miracles 😉

    Folks, here is a perfect example, and this proves just how desperate post-trib advocates are; mangle and tangle the word of God to make it fit post-trib, no matter if it makes out God to be a liar, or even if it is in direct opposition to what the Lord says.

    Uhmm.. I’m not a post-trib, mid-trib, or pre-trib advocate. I have my own theory unto things based on deep examination of related scripture 😀

  • carrierwave

    Show us again where born-again believers “turn into angels”, and where Jesus Christ our Saviour becomes “an angel in form”, and where Enoch “didn’t see death” but died anyway. PLEASE? Your explaination seem to be REAL FUZZY.

    “We are confident I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY and to be present with the Lord.” 2 Cor. 5:8

    “READ the entire event of Paul’s transport to the third Heaven. (2Cor. 5)

    (oh, and please leave out the “cut and paste” E-Sword Greek definitions and explanations, because you haven’t got the foggiest idea what they mean anyway.)

    • MRH

      Show us again where…

      @carrierwave: Why? It’s all explained above. Did you not read it?

      If angels are spirits, and we will be spirits, how then will we not be angels? And Jesus was only human during his sojourn, afterward he was transformed into an angel, and the highest of them all. Lucifer originally was the highest of the angels, till his fall back at the garden.

      Eze 28:12-19 KJV – Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

      “We are confident I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY and to be present with the Lord.” 2 Cor. 5:8

      Simple, death is a timeless void (dreamless sleep), so when we die we instantly awaken at our judgment call; #1 good, #2 bad 😉

      “READ the entire event of Paul’s transport to the third Heaven. (2Cor. 5)

      Again the bible doesn’t detail such 🙁

      (oh, and please leave out the “cut and paste” E-Sword Greek definitions and explanations, because you haven’t got the foggiest idea what they mean anyway.)

      Why? The Strongs notes clearly explain things 😉

  • carrierwave

    You started out with two lies in the first sentence, followed by another lie beginning in the next sentence. You are not doing too well MRH, are you?

    “If angels are spirits, and we will be spirits, how then will we not be angels?”

    Lie #1. God’s ultimate goal for “fallen man” is never to become angels, but to be restored through the Gospel of Christ Jesus to our original status as God’s children created in God’s image.

    “But to as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name.” John 1:12

    Those who have not received Jesus Christ by FAITH, as their own Saviour, but are trusting in their own good deeds and works to save them, cannot obtain eternal life and become God’s children. Eph. 2:8-9

    “For ye are all the children of God by FAITH in Jesus Christ.” Galatians 3:26

    Angels were never created in God’s image, but were created as “ministering spirits” to minister to those who will become the heirs of salvation. Hebrews 1:14

    Lie #2. “We will be spirits“. The Bible plainly teaches that believers in Jesus Christ are ALREADY in the Spirit.

    “But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is NONE OF HIS.” Romans 8:9

    Next lie #3. “And Jesus was only human during his sojourn,”

    Jesus Christ was God in human flesh:

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word *WAS GOD*. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made. Vs. 14: “And the Word was *MADE FLESH*, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, (the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.” John 1:1-2,14

    These passages clearly teach Jesus Christ was God and when He became flesh, He was God in human flesh as the “only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    The Bible also teaches that if you do not believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He “came in the flesh” as the only begotten Son of God” you are not a Christian, but an anti-christ.

    “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-christ.” 2 John 1:7

    How you doing so far?

    • MRH

      @carrierwave: Please consider below honorable reply and friendship? 💡 😀

      You started out with two lies in the first sentence, followed by another lie beginning in the next sentence. You are not doing too well MRH, are you?

      No, NOT lies brother, just miscommunication I think? 🙁

      “If angels are spirits, and we will be spirits, how then will we not be angels?”

      Lie #1. God’s ultimate goal for “fallen man” is never to become angels, but to be restored through the Gospel of Christ Jesus to our original status as God’s children created in God’s image.

      When I said we will be angels, I meant we will be similar in bodily form (body, mind). We won’t be flesh and blood (human) creatures anymore, as such is an inferior life form as it dies and decays. Agreed?

      Lie #2. “We will be spirits“. The Bible plainly teaches that believers in Jesus Christ are ALREADY in the Spirit.

      True that the Spirit dwells within us now, but our bodies still are flesh and blood? In the resurrection the holy transformation process will be complete. We will then have eternal spiritual bodies and minds (perfect creatures). Agreed? 😉

      Next lie #3. “And Jesus was only human during his sojourn,”

      Jesus Christ was God in human flesh:

      The trinity is a controversial topic? To understand things, one must divide things. God is a spirit (undefinable in words), Jesus was a man (flesh and blood), the Spirit is the holy gift (essence of God). By the bible God is; invisible, eternal, all knowing, etc. God is also; light, love, etc. So are we on the same or similar page yet brother? 😉

      P.S. Biblical debates are a challenge, as there are many parameters involved (controversies, theories, etc), plus miscommunication 😡 😥

  • carrierwave

    MRH, I used to believe a lot of false teaching and lies and actually taught them, to my own embarrassment. Nobody is immune to being fooled or manipulated into accepting things that aren’t biblical. Words mean things, and if the words we speak or believe are in opposition or foreign to Bible truth, especially doctrines that would affect our salvation, it is us that need to change our minds, and adjust our thinking to God’s thinking. Holding on to a false notion after God has clearly shown us differently, and attempting to use God’s Word to continue believing a lie through twisting and perverting what God says, will only lead to more lies and deceptions.

    As far as humans and angels are concerned, there is a marked difference. Outside the fact God created both, the differences are very obvious and striking.

    Most central is the fact that God created “man” in His own image and likeness. Gen. 1:26-27. Angels were created in their own image, and were not given the Holy Spirit, or a body of flesh, bones, and blood as part of their construction, as man was. That is a rather huge difference just on the surface. I think the miss communication is on your part.

    When you say: “how can we not be angels”? , that is a flat out lie. Doesn’t matter who said it, but it happens to be you saying it at the time. If you mean something else, you still have not proven that to me.

    “When I said we will be angels, I meant we will be similar in bodily form (body, mind). We won’t be flesh and blood (human) creatures anymore, as such is an inferior life form as it dies and decays. Agreed?”

    No, that still is not something I agree with. We will be “like Him, (Jesus Christ)”. 1John 3:2 We are to be conformed to the “image of His Son”. Romans 8:29. We are “ONE” with Jesus Christ–NOT angel’s

    When Jesus rose from the dead, He declared about His own body and said:

    “Behold my hands and my feet, that IT is I MYSELF: handle and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, as ye see ME HAVE.” Luke 24:39

    Jesus shed His blood, but still He retained His same “FLESH AND BONE“ as before He died and rose again. “Flesh and blood” cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but “FLESH AND BONES can! Christians will still have “flesh and bones” God created us with. That is what the Bible says. Jesus was able with His own “flesh and bone” resurrected body to pass through walls, ascend to the Father, and yet stand, speak, and eat food. That being true, Christians one day will share these same features. Not so with Angels; they must acquire a body to be seen and operate in time and space. So I still think you believe otherwise. Your explanation does not jive with what God says.

    “Next lie #3. “And Jesus was only human during his sojourn,”

    I said: “Jesus Christ was God in human flesh:”

    You said: “The trinity is a controversial topic? To understand things, one must divide things. God is a spirit (undefinable in words), Jesus was a man (flesh and blood), the Spirit is the holy gift (essence of God). By the bible God is; invisible, eternal, all knowing, etc. God is also; light, love, etc. So are we on the same or similar page yet brother?”

    NO! We are not “on the same or similar page ; you are reading from an entirely different book,”brother”. The controversy comes when people reject the plain scripture about who Jesus Christ is, and turn Him into a mere man, and steal away His divinity! I worship, and call upon the name of Jesus Christ and the Father, they are “ONE”. John 10:30. John 17:11-22 This is the defining difference–Jesus Christ is God the Son, one with the Father. There is no controversy, except you do not believe this. I could spend all day explaining who Jesus Christ really is to you, but until you repent of your unbelief in Jesus as God the Son, we are not “brothers”. If you would like me to share those scriptures with you, I would be very glad to. The topic is post trib-Mid-Pre-wrath, pre-trib RAPTURE. discussion here.

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