Tribulation As A Condition Is Not The Same As The Event Of The Time Of Jacob’s Trouble

The time of Jacob’s trouble begins with the body of Christ in Heaven (pre-trib catching away) rejoicing and praising the Lord as he takes the book. If the body of Christ is still on earth, this cannot take place!
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Historical tribulation and the time of Jacob’s trouble is not the same thing.

“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.  And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.” Revelation 5:1-4 (KJV)

For several years post-tribbers have been using the same bait and switch tactic with the term “tribulation” to deceive many Christians into believing that they will be present on earth during the time of Jacob’s trouble. A post-tribber would often approach a newly saved believer or a Christian that was not taught to study/rightly divide God’s word and begin to spew their false doctrine. The post-tribber would teach their heresy by attempting to pair a historical ‘tribulation’ reference term (Romans 5:3 KJV) with a specific descriptive ‘tribulation’ term (Revelation 7:14) and PRESTO; the body of Christ was now going through the time of Jacob’s trouble. This lazy man’s trap door is often how the majority of those deceived into believing post-trib have fallen; totally ignoring the specific characteristics that God has given us to delineate the MAJOR doctrinal differences between historical/general tribulation suffered by many saints throughout history and the time of Jacob’s trouble. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

HISTORICAL/ GENERAL SAINT TRIBULATION:

Ever since man was kicked out of the garden in Genesis 3, man has dealt with tribulation on earth; followers of God specifically. Abel suffered tribulation that cost him his life and Enoch, while suffering no tribulation like Abel, simply walked with God and was caught up. If there is one Christian in the Bible that knows anything about suffering everyday tribulation for following God it would be the Apostle Paul:

“I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.” 2 Corinthians 11:21-28 (KJV)

 Even though the Apostle Paul suffered much tribulation for Christ, the Apostle Paul was NOT in the time of Jacob’s trouble. As a Christian, the Apostle Paul suffered prison, suffered stripes, suffered being beaten with rods, stoning, shipwreck, robbers, weather trouble, countrymen trouble, heathen trouble, city trouble, wilderness trouble, sea trouble, false brethren, endured and suffered cold/nakedness, hunger and thirst, weary and painfulness, and died a martyr for Christ. Once again, the Apostle Paul was NOT in the time of Jacob’s trouble. As a Christian, he was experiencing historical/everyday tribulations that many followers of God had gone through since the beginning. Even though the Apostle Paul suffered a greater measure than most, the Apostle Paul was STILL NOT in the time of Jacob’s trouble nor did he preach that Christians would be mandated to go through Jacob’s trouble.

As a Christian today, just because you may suffer or may know someone that has suffered from one of the former above does NOT mean that Christians are in or mandated to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble. There are Christians TODAY in countries such as Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, China, Turkey, and Arabia that are being persecuted, tortured, and killed for their faith, but neither they nor we in America are in the time of Jacob’s trouble. DO NOT confuse historical/general tribulation as suffered by many saints throughout history as being associated with the time of Jacob’s trouble. IT IS NOT THE SAME. There are MAJOR doctrinal differences that clearly delineate the two.

MAJOR DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES:

The Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who can initiate the time of Jacob’s trouble:

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;” Revelation 5:6-9 (KJV)

The time of Jacob’s trouble does not initiate from the government taking away your rights, terrorists’ attacks, or underground entities such as illuminati, masons, Jesuits, etc. The time of Jacob’s trouble does not initiate from mass murders/persecutions of Christians from country to country. The time of Jacob’s trouble BEGINS with the body of Christ in Heaven (pre-trib catching away) rejoicing and praising the Lord as he takes the book. If the body of Christ is STILL on earth, this cannot take place!

MANDATED: No buying or selling unless having the mark, name, or number of the beast!

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Revelation 13:15-17 KJV)

This is not historical/general tribulation. Never in history has ANY Christian been forbidden from buying or selling unless they receive the name, number, or mark of the beast. It is also critical to note that the time of Jacob’s trouble is WORLDWIDE tribulation that subjects everyone on earth. This is not the case with historical persecution against the saints that differed in severity from country to country. Even today, Christian persecution is American is defiantly less severe than Christian persecution in Iraq.

MANDATED Hell fire DAMNATION to ANYONE that worships the beast, his image, or receive his mark, name, or number!

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)

The ULTIMATE post-trib stumbling stone! In the time of Jacob’s trouble, EVERYONE is mandated to KEEP GOD’S COMMANDMENTS which INCLUDES not getting the mark, name, or number of the beast! Post-tribbers never want to Biblically address this in their “tribulation” rant. Is the gospel believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? Or don’t get the mark? You can’t preach both unless you rightly divide the word of truth! This mandate is specifically reserved for the time of Jacob’s trouble. A Christian can’t be present on earth during this time period because a Christian is already SEALED unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30 KJV). It is utter blasphemy for post-trib theology to proclaim that a Christian can both be sealed and take the mark and STILL go to Heaven, and it is utter blasphemy to claim that a Christian must “endure to the end” by not taking the mark of the beast to be or remain saved! A Christian is a member of the body of Christ, and any person that proclaims to be a “Christian” while also believing they must have works to be saved or works to stay saved is NOT a saved! They are LOST and on their way to a devil’s Hell.

In the time of Jacob’s trouble, the believer is looking to flee from/endure the anti-christ BEFORE they look for the Lord to appear!

“When ye therefore shall SEE the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV)

Nowhere in the Pauline epistles does the Apostle Paul instruct the body of Christ to flee when we SEE the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place. The holy place for a Christian is the physical body (1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV) which in context is impossible for the devil the ‘stand in’. On the contrary, the Apostle Paul constantly instructs the Christian to look for the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ to appear BEFORE the time of Jacob’s trouble:

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV)

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (KJV)

“I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:7-8 (KJV)

“For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we LOOK FOR the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” Philippians 3:21-22 (KJV)

So why is it today when some Christians experience some “tribulation” they automatically want to place themselves in the time of Jacob’s trouble?

Pure Bible ignorance is the only answer.

The Bible does not revolve around America. Just because the majority of Christendom in America has gone lukewarm means nothing as far as Christendom globally. Any post-trib theologian with a desire to “shed their blood” for the Lord today is welcomed to hop a one-way ticket to Iran and street preach by a mosque. But the body of Christ is not appointed to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble. You MUST rightly divide the word of truth

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

 

Jimmy Randolph is a veteran, husband, father, Bible believer and a devoted student of the word of God. He was called to preach on the street in 2012, and maintains a strong, personal tract witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.

    • Max Dolan

      Bro. Jimmy, you really blessed me with this article! I copied and pasted it into a Word document so that I could keep it on my PC to refresh my memory. I KNOW all of what you have written, but your article was so complete and concise that it really brings things into focus. Whenever I have a case of the “what if’s” when it comes to the Rapture and Great Tribulation, I can go back to this and get that reassurance that we will be spared. Until then, we’ll just “keep on keepin’ on” in studying the Word, spreading the Word, praying, and living with salt and light. Thanks, Brother!

      • We have been teaching for YEARS now that tribulation as a condition, which always existed, cannot be the same as the Tribulation as an event. Bro. Jimmy NAILED THIS so well that there is not a Post Toastie anywhere that can refute it from the Bible.

        • carrierwave

          While I agree whole heartedly Jimmy’s article,(good sound doctrine, Jimmy) this notion people merit salvation differently during the 7 year reign of evil and God’s judgemnt is simply ridiculous. You have also been teaching all OT saints are NOT SAVED, but are “SAFE” (made “SAFE” by faith and works, nowhere is the term “safe” used of any OT saint.)

          Man cannot save himself–Paul said the whole world is guilty before God. Man can only be SAVED by the merits of God’s MERCY only, in EVERY AGE by innocent blood spilled in our behalf. Adam knew this when, Jesus clothed them in the Garden with the bloody skins, of slain innocent animals, picturing His own future atonement for our sins on Calvary. Adam faithfully taught this also to his sons Cain and Abel, with Abel bringing by “FAITH the blood” of the firstlings of the flock while Cain the merit of his works of his own labor. Abel was called “righteous”. But Abel was a sinner deserving God’s death sentence but his FAITH made him “righteous” before God through the BLOOD he offered God in his behalf, testifying of HIS FAITH he already had. Both Adam and Eve were taught and knew that through the “seed” of the EVE a deliverer would come to destroy the serpent and the curse upon mankind. Genesis 3:15 DON’T tell us they were ignorantly “working” to be “safe” in the OT.

          Enoch, by Faith, saw a vision of Jesus coming and prophesied publically before the Flood of the RAPTURE, God even “took (raptured) him” by FAITH as a testimony of his prophecy sparing him from the coming Flood, picturing the rapture of the church many centuries later before the 7 year tribulation.

          Noah “found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD”. That word “GRACE” is synonomous with our GRACE we are SAVED BY TODAY. Noah was SAVED BY GRACE BEFORE he ever lifted a stick of wood to build the ARK! Don’t tell us he was made spiritually “safe” because he built the ARK! Noah’s FAITH saved his SOUL, while building the Ark he saved himself and family FROM PHYSICAL DEATH. I am puzzled you cannot see this and you simply refuse to believe it!

          Mary called God “her SAVIOUR”. God was not her “safiour”. Any works Mary performed of the Law were done BECAUSE of her FAITH in God her “SAVIOUR”. She wanted to PLEASE HIM–not because she had to IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, but BECAUSE she was already SAVED! Again, why do you refuse to believe this and teach “WORKS” is a co-savior for SALVATION with Jesus??? That is heresy and “lordship salvation”, plain and simple!

          • Jimmy

            @Carrier

            Thanks for your reply! I few words on your statement though:

            “You have also been teaching all OT saints are NOT SAVED, but are “SAFE” (made “SAFE” by faith and works, nowhere is the term “safe” used of any OT saint.)”

            The term “safe” is used to label the Biblical condition of OT saints no being capable of going to Heaven when they died. OT saints were safe because they went to paradise/Abraham’s bosom when they died and not Hell, but they could not ascend to Heaven because their sins weren’t paid for. In the OT, sins were covered by the blood of animals but not cleared until Christ’s FINISHED blood atonement.

            “Man cannot save himself–Paul said the whole world is guilty before God. Man can only be SAVED by the merits of God’s MERCY only, in EVERY AGE by innocent blood spilled in our behalf. Adam knew this when, Jesus clothed them in the Garden with the bloody skins, of slain innocent animals, picturing His own future atonement for our sins on Calvary. Adam faithfully taught this also to his sons Cain and Abel, with Abel bringing by “FAITH the blood” of the firstlings of the flock while Cain the merit of his works of his own labor. Abel was called “righteous”. But Abel was a sinner deserving God’s death sentence but his FAITH made him “righteous” before God through the BLOOD he offered God in his behalf, testifying of HIS FAITH he already had. Both Adam and Eve were taught and knew that through the “seed” of the EVE a deliverer would come to destroy the serpent and the curse upon mankind. Genesis 3:15 DON’T tell us they were ignorantly “working” to be “safe” in the OT.”

            The only thing Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel knew is what God them and showed them. Cain and Abel knew God required the blood of an animal because God showed it to Adam and Eve and then told Cain and Abel, this is true. BUT to claim that Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel saw the future of Christ being crucified on Calvary’s cross is totally unbiblical. Jesus specfically said that this was kept hidden (Luke 18:31-34 KJV) and both Peter and Paul said that had the princes of the world known this, they WOULD NOT have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Peter 1:10-11/1 Corinthians 2:8 KJV)

            “Noah “found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD”. That word “GRACE” is synonymous with our GRACE we are SAVED BY TODAY.”

            Absolutely not. The Bible says that Noah FOUND grace in the eyes of the Lord. It DOES NOT say that Noah was SAVED by grace in the eyes of the Lord. The common sense aspect of this is simple. Noah FOUND grace in the eyes of the Lord BUT if Noah DID NOT build the ark he would’ve drowned like everyone else. God did not tell Noah that he would save him whether he did or did not build the ark. A Christian however, is SAVED by grace through faith in Christ FINISHED blood atonement, and God promises a Christian eternity in Heaven whether he does or doesn’t work! (Romans 4:5 KJV)

            “Mary called God “her SAVIOUR”. God was not her “safiour”. Any works Mary performed of the Law were done BECAUSE of her FAITH in God her “SAVIOUR”. She wanted to PLEASE HIM–not because she had to IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, but BECAUSE she was already SAVED! Again, why do you refuse to believe this and teach “WORKS” is a co-savior for SALVATION with Jesus??? That is heresy and “lordship salvation”, plain and simple!”

            Re-read Luke 1 KJV. The CONTEXT of Mary calling God her SAVIOUR was not salvation from Hell, but God saving the Jewish nation of Israel from their enemies and God fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant in the literal, physical, earthly, Jewish Kingdom of Heaven. Zacharias confirms the same in verses 67-75.

            Pray this helps

            • carrierwave

              “Pray this helps” Jimmy, you had better pray that no ‘would-be tribulation saint’ reads your articles and comments about salvation in the Tribulation, because he or she will die in their sins without the Blood of Christ. With due respect, you are playing with words and scriptures to support “hyper-dispensation” and not the Bible. Reason this out with me please:

              What you said, Jimmy, about Mary’s FAITH in “God my Saviour” is a lie. Did Mary’s “Saviour” deliver her from the Roman government oppression and bring in the Kingdom for her, as you said ‘she was trusting so’ in your comments? The answer is NO. Mary died under Roman oppression and no “Kingdom” was established in her life-time. Her “Saviour” was a failure according your teaching.

              Ye do err not knowing the scriptures, Jimmy.:

              Matthew 1:21-23 (KJV)
              21 “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.
              22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

              23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

              This message was given to Joseph in his dream, and it would be best that you read every word here and compare it with Luke 1 . Observe: Mary KNEW all of this when she went to visit her cousin, Elizabeth, in Luke 1:39, AFTER the angel Gabriel had appeared to both her and Joseph. So Mary fully KNEW her child was HER SAVIOUR FROM HER SINS when she made her famous profession: “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” Note also she used a PAST TENSE verb in her profession, detailing her FAITH had already caused her to rejoice before she made her profession. Stop dancing around with words that deny these scriptures, Jimmy. Telling us Mary was not trusting in God as her Saviour from her sins is a flat-out falsehood! She KNEW IT. She was SAVED. That is what FAITH does when you put it in God; IT SAVES YOU!

              Tribulation SAINTS, are “SAVED” the same way; BY FAITH in the SHED BLOOD of God their SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST! Rev 7:14. Stop telling future would -be Tribulation “saints” they are saved their works. It is a lie, Jimmy. Repent.. Rev. 7:14, Rev. 20:4

            • 1 harpazo

              Hey, Jimmy, if you read this post, you better respond. What you said borders on heretical.

              From your article, you said, “Nowhere in the Pauline epistles does the Apostle Paul instruct the body of Christ to flee when we SEE the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place. The holy place for a Christian is the physical body (1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV) which in context is impossible for the devil the ‘stand in’. On the contrary, the Apostle Paul constantly instructs the Christian to look for the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ to appear BEFORE the time of Jacob’s trouble”

              In Matt 24:15, Jesus said, “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),…”

              Do you see the words, “which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet”? The Abomination of Desolation that Daniel the prophet spoke about was the desecration of the physical building (the temple) in Jerusalem. Read Dan 9:24-27. The antichrist will desecrate the holy place in the temple in Jerusalem. Jesus never referred to the Abomination of Desolation as the devil inhabiting a Christian’s physical body. Daniel did not even know what a “Christian” is. There are not two Abominations-only one and that happens in the temple in Jerusalem. You are twisting scripture way out of context to support your erroneous supposition that the Church is removed before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

              So in context, Jesus said that when you see the desecration of the holy place in Jerusalem, there will be a great tribulation. Who’s the “you” that will see the desecration of the holy place in Jerusalem?

        • TWR

          I’m your Post Toastie.

          The reason there is so much confusion amongst Christian tribulationists as to the timing of the rapture is the story is not about you. Bear with me. We know Israelites are God’s chosen. He will show mercy to Jacob and he is certain to choose Israel (Isaiah 14:1). Isaiah 56:6-8 talks about the stranger (foreigner/gentile) that Jehovah will collect in addition to Israel. So, you have strangers and gentiles being collected in addition to Israel. Where are the Christians?

          Rome adopted Christianity. Christ is a Greek word meaning anointed. Israelites are God’s anointed. Israelites are obviously restored before any collection takes place. Zephaniah 3:18-20 says they will be fame and a praise in every nation where they have been outcast. They are restored. Punishment is over. Why would Christians be collected first? The church is spiritual. The Body is spiritual. The body consists of the branch that was broken and the wild vine (gentiles) that are grafted in.
          Romans 11:17-18 17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.…

          The tribulation is instigated by God. He is going to turn people’s wickedness against one another. We can’t judge tribulation just by what is happening in America, but it will hit here (Mystery Babylon) the hardest. Christ is coming once at the 7th trump. There is nothing in the bible to indicate two collections. Matthew 24 and Daniel 12 are after tribulation. 1 Thessalonians and Revelation is at the 7th trump.

          Isaiah 56:6-7 Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath And holds fast My covenant; 7Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”…

          Israelites, which you were all invited to become (Ephesians 2:11), is what the bible is about from cover to cover. It is written to, by and for Israelites. Thus, the deception of Rome. The gentiles God brings to his mountain are the ones who keep from profaning the Sabbath and hold fast the covenant. All Christians have to do is believe. Matthew 24 talks about believers being delivered up and being betrayed. This isn’t some hostage rescue or extraction from a hot LZ. There is nothing in the Bible that says anyone is spared from tribulation, just God’s wrath which according to Daniel is worse than anything since there has been a nation. Rapture is hearsay and false doctrine. Gentiles are so desperate for salvation and to keep from being tested they created a special name (Christians). Then, they wrote themselves in and out of the story before God’s chosen people. Gentiles forgot why they have salvation (Romans 11:11-15). Gentiles forgot there is a pecking order (Romans 1:16). There is no rapture. There will be a post-trib collection.

          • Doug L

            Although your argument is lengthy is does not reveal the heart of God for those that are His. All through out the bible God’s desire is to save, rescue and deliver those that love and obey Him above all else. He is constantly warning His people to do what is right and avoid judgment. Who he is has not changed whether Jew or Gentile believer – we belong to Him and His desire for us remains the same. Jesus loves His Body and will do whatever is necessary to bring it to completion. As Eve was taken from Adam’s body to become his wife. The Bride for Christ will be removed from His Body to become His intimately. (read the parable of 10 virgins)He will come for His Bride – who has made herself ready. Why else would we be told to pray that we might be counted worthy to escape the things that are coming upon this earth? All were virgins but only 5 were ready when he called for them.(worthy) The remaining 5 were made ready through tribulation to meet Him in the air at His Return to earth. Call it rapture, escape, deliverance, not appointed to wrath whatever – God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Our hope lies not just in our ability to prove our particular view through the text but in the unchanging, loving-heart of God who will always respond with mercy and grace to His beloved.

      • Jimmy

        Appreciate your reply brother. God bless!

        • carrierwave

          The Tribulation “saints” hear and believe the same “Gospel of Jesus Christ” and are saved through the “shed Blood of Jesus, the LAMB, just like WE ARE! BY FAITH.

          Notice carefully, Jimmy “… and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the WITNESS (“marturia”) OF JESUS, and for the Word of God…” Christ’s shed blood on Calvary is Jesus’ witness (martyrdom)! Note in this verse they were “beheaded FOR the witness of Jesus, and the word of God” FIRST, not because they refused the mark, number and beast worship. Rev. 20:4 Obviously for the witness of Jesus and the Word of God, they were already bought by, and HAD BEEN “washed in the blood”. This false notion Trib Saints were saved by their “works” and can lose their salvation is NOT TRUE.

          Here it is again, Rev. 7:9-17 the vision of the great multitude in “white robes with palms in their hands” stood before the Lamb. One of the elders asks:

          “What are these that are arrayed in white robes, and from whence came they?”
          (The elder explains) : “These are they WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have WASHED THEIR ROBES AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.” (keep reading!) “Therefore, (because of that) they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple…”

          According to verse 14, these TRIBULATION SAINTS are before the throne of God because THEY WASHED THEIR ROBES AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB–not because that “endured to the end” ! They heard the Gospel, probably preached by the 144,000, described earlier in this chapter and believed them. Please don’t tell us anymore they were “saved by their works”. It is plain they BELIEVED THE GOSPEL OF THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST during the Tribulation and were SAVED BY THE BLOOD.

          • Jimmy

            @Carrier

            A Christian in the body of Christ is not mandated to wash thier worbe and MAKE them white in the blood of the Lamb.
            In the body of Christ, the CHRISTIAN is washed!

            And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:5-6 KJV)

            Also, the word of God is what tells that the anti-christ is NOT is messiah.

            • carrierwave

              Ubsurd, Jimmy, you are still denying the BLOOD of Jesus SAVES people in the Tribulation making the Blood of Jesus the only way to be ‘fit for Heaven’ whether before or during the Tribulation. Jesus’ Blood washed sin away. The 24 elders are wearing white robes also, before the Tribulation even starts. See: Rev.6:11, and Rev. 7:14. The Bride (‘church’) wears “fine linen” (a Hebrew root) “washed robes” which are wedding garments, also at the “marriage of the Lamb” Greek “bussinos” means “bleached” a Hebrew term for a linen “washed white”–“the righteousness of SAINTS”. Twice mentioned Rev. 19:8. We see the SAME wor “bussinos” worn be the ARMIES following Jesus out of Heaven on white horses wearing “Bleached white robes”. I hope no trib. “would be saint” ever reads your posts!

            • People saved in the time of Jacob’s trouble will NOT be saved according to Ephesians 2:8,9, that is for the Church only. Tribulation saints are NOT Church age saints. Just as Acts 2:38 doesn’t save us now, grace through faith alone will not save them then.

            • 1 harpazo

              @Geoffrey Grider: You said, “People saved in the time of Jacob’s trouble will NOT be saved according to Ephesians 2:8,9, that is for the Church only. Tribulation saints are NOT Church age saints. Just as Acts 2:38 doesn’t save us now, grace through faith alone will not save them then.” There is no distinction between tribulation saints and Church Age saints. There is only Church Age saints. Nobody is saved once the Church is raptured. Read Luke 17:26-30.

        • Kiwiwatcher

          Excellent message brother Jimmy. Appreciate your work very much. God Bless you.

        • Doug L

          Although your argument is lengthy it does not reveal the heart of God for those that are His. All through out the bible God’s desire is to save, rescue and deliver those that love and obey Him above all else. He is constantly warning His people to do what is right and avoid judgment. Who he is has not changed whether Jew or Gentile believer – we belong to Him and His desire for us remains the same. Jesus loves His Body and will do whatever is necessary to bring it to completion. As Eve was taken from Adam’s body to become his wife. The Bride for Christ will be removed from His Body to become His intimately. (read the parable of 10 virgins)He will come for His Bride – who has made herself ready. Why else would we be told to pray that we might be counted worthy to escape the things that are coming upon this earth? All were virgins but only 5 were ready when he called for them.(worthy) The remaining 5 were made ready through tribulation to meet Him in the air at His Return to earth. Call it rapture, escape, deliverance, not appointed to wrath whatever – God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Our hope lies not just in our ability to prove our particular view through the text but in the unchanging, loving-heart of God who will always respond with mercy and grace to His beloved.

      • Righteously Dividing The Enemy
        http://www.persecution.com

        The Fulfillment Of All Things Is Upon Mankind, Gabriel 2004

        Amen, these are two distinct time tables, it's like Jesus and John the Baptist, although they both being Holy Spirit admonished the other, one ministry, time was ending and the other just beginning. The Church age is ending, Christ will as promise take it out on the last day, this will then open the space, given the final seven years of Daniels seventieth week, also known as Jacob's Trouble. Unto Israel signing that seven years peace accord with neighboring Islam, that I believe Russia being in Syria is actually for.
        When the Holy Spirit Dec. 25th 2001, gave me the time table making the end of westernized civilization, this 190 months and it's over, gone. I first calculated Daniel's seven years into this total, meaning by 2010 the west was over, this will explain 2010 coming like it was the end, but not yet. The Obama administration, this man of prediction, prophesied by this ministry, 2003, had been given two weeks and seven years.
        Now here we are what? Less than two years from when this time table will be fulfilled, 190 months from Dec. 2001, 15.10 years is actually Oct. 2017, which will be the end not only of westernized civilization, but the dispensation of grace. Also the church age, and we're like portrayed to me by a Jesus of Resurrection 1986, we're taken off this earth, ascending too and away with Him, Jesus, the Christ, Doctrine of Resurrection.
        This will further explain after the intrepid dream auto disappeared, meaning the rapture, the west felled unto a beige (pale), horse judgment, meaning you guys, the seals are open, and will explain the two beast I saw rise. That's one from land, one from sea, just as Obama was becoming the first Black, African American President, see Rev. 13, soon to be dubbed "The One," by Holy Spirits, 2008. I believe more like a Moses coming to his senses, this people pleaser, than an antichrist, though I guess we'll soon see, I can't tell you how all this confusion grieves the Holy Spirits, take heed, beware, see more here, www.intrepiddream2001.blogspot.com www.theseventhnumber14.blogspot.com, www.thephoenix1012.blogspot.com

        • Mike

          “No man or woman knows the time of My comming.” Jesus’ own words, with woman put in for your part!

    • Laura Marie

      Do we know who the anti Christ is before the rapture? How will we know it is him? Great show last night !!

      • Thank you! Well, we already know that the AC is Judas coming back, as far as what his human name will be in our time? That remains to be seen. But yes, I firmly believe that Christians in the Church Age will know the AC when we see him, the HOLY SPIRIT inside us will set off the warning bells!

        • 1 harpazo

          You said, “But yes, I firmly believe that Christians in the Church Age will know the AC when we see him…” And Jesus said, “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)…” (Matt 24:15). So the Church Age continues at least through the mid-point of the 70th week of Daniel. That goes against a pre-trib rapture, doesn’t it?

    • soifranc

      “,,,and any person that proclaims to be a “Christian” while also believing they must have works to be saved or works to stay saved is NOT a saved! They are LOST and on their way to a devil’s Hell.”

      That part is hard to beleive for me. It belongs to the Lord to judge who is saved or not and the Bible teaches (if I am wrong please correct me, I am willing to learn correctly) that God looks at the heart of the man toward the Son. So, a christian could beleive in Jesus, but being wrongly instructed.

      Those post-tribbers are true beleivers, but wrongly instructed.

      • Jimmy

        @Soifranc

        But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV)

        If someone believes another gospel today outside of Paul’s gospel they are lost and on their way to Hell. This is not my opinion this is what the Bible states. By their own testimony they are not saved. Works don’t get you in and works don’t keep you in!

      • Jim Black

        Greetings,

        I agree with you that Christians can be wrongly instructed. In my view, pre tribulationism is a wrong instruction. For one thing, early church fathers always taught that the church would experience the tribulation.

        Even Paul said, “Through much tribulation we must enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Acts 14:22)
        and that it has been,”granted to believers to suffer for His namesake.” (Phil. 1:29)

        As Christians, I don’t believe we should fear it, rather take the attitude to “count it all joy” (Jas. 1:1) and “rejoice that we are counted worthy to suffer for His namesake.” (Acts 5:41)

        Where do believers today get off thinking that they should be delivered from tribulation when all church age generations have experienced it? Try telling that to our brothers and sisters in the middle east who know what real suffering and tribulation is all about.

        If you will do a web search on the early church fathers you will discover that they believed the church would go through the tribulation.

        Lord bless

        • Kern

          I did research on the “Rapture theory” and found it was begun by the Darbyites out of Scotland. It was further embellished by Cyrus Scofield, whose Bible was printed by Horst and Westcott of Oxford Press in England. It is well known that they were occultists.
          So, back to the present: The pre-tri rapture view has caused the death of thousands of persons. Veteran missionary H a baker Shares his experiences of 34 years on the mission field in China in several of his books including through tribulation, tribulation to glory, visions beyond the veil, and God in, Ka Do land. He graphically points out the link between beliefs and actions Baker and other post-trip missionaries war and many Chinese Christians that Antichrist would come before Christ returns. Many heeded the warning and, before the Communist takeover,, fled to the mountains where they have been able to continue witnessing for many years. On the other hand, many pretrip missionaries assured believers that they would be rapture to wait before any time of persecution and history tells us that tens of thousands of Chinese Christians have been murdered since 1949. Corrie ten boom Has spoken of the Chinese Christians and their suffering that the Christians were told they didn’t have to go through the tribulation and we all know how it is in China.

          So as far as any magical hand or magical suction going to take me up prior to my being persecuted or prior to my going through tribulation as in a pre-trib rapture Is absolute heresy and wrong teaching. Tell that to the Germans, especially those Christians in my family who also went to the ovens,, tell that to all the people in Iraq and Afghanistan and all those countries that are beheading people for their Christian faith. When I read the book of Revelation I see the beheaded under the altar actually their souls under the older of protection asking landlord? I feel that a pre-tribulation rapture theory creates very weak Christians as they will then sit about and do nothing to help themselves or help anybody else except to say that Jesus is coming. Whereas knowing that I will go through the tribulation creates in me a much stronger belief in that my God my Lord and the power of the Holy Spirit will bring me through as did Corrie ten boom, And those Christians who were imprisoned for years for their beliefs.

          • Jimmy

            @Kern

            I get my doctrine from the Holy Bible, not Scotland. I don’t quote Darby, I quote the Holy Bible.

            Your Darby straw man fallacy only displays your ignorance of scripture

    • Robieone

      Great article Brother Jimmy! I know that the Lord is pleased with you.

      • Jimmy

        Thanks for your reply brother. Time is short!

    • ol’Lawrence

      Jimmy Randolph is WRONG! The Time of Jacob’s Trouble lasts only 150 days, 5- 30 day months, starting with the
      destruction of Damascus which will happen between Roshashana and Yom Kippur (Isaiah 17:1) and ends in nuclear conflagration on Groundhog day, February 2nd (the exact MIDDLE of the winter (Matthew 24). It is the response of the US (Manasseh) and Britain (Ephraim), the sons of Joseph, whose father Jacob/Israel ADOPTED them as his sons in Egypt (Genesis 48), to the surrounding of of Israel by armies of Islam…and their attack on Israel. We, the US/UK (Jacob in the Last Days) WILL destroy the Islamic armies with nuclear weapons which is described in Ezekiel 38 and 39, and in Jeremiah 30 and 50. Then, we’ll go after Russia for supplying Islam with nuclear weapons to attack Israel….and the resultant exchange of nuclear weapons between Russia and US/UK will destroy all 3 nations. The 5 months of the Time of Jacob’s Trouble will see about 2 BILLION people die in war. 1.6 Billion Islams, and 400 to 500 Million US/UK and Russians.

      But, once the US, UK, and Russia are gone off the world scene (That which prevents….Ephesians), the
      antichrist world dictator can rise from Germany to take over the entire remaining world.
      THEN will begin the Tribulation….and the Lord Jesus the Christ WILL return at Armageddon ‘to set the captives free’. Who are those captives? Those who refuse to bow to the antichrist. Who, on pain of having their heads chopped off after having lost their country, their traditions, their language, etc having refused to bow to the antichrist, refused to follow him as their god, WHO would they be? I say they are the Christian remnants of the US and UK! They are the ‘captives’ the Lord said He comes to set free.

      There ISN’T any RAPTURE, pre or post Tribulation. The Lord will come for His.

      • Guest

        Thanks for that nonsense, it gave me a hearty laugh. Let me just see what the Bible teaches…

        Ah, here we are. The Bible teaches specifically the Anti-Christ will come out of Rome. Any other claims are false.

        It also teaches in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that an event where we’re caught up (i.e. raptured up) in the air to meet the Lord happens. So yes, there IS a rapture. The next question is: when does it occur? That answer would be: pre-trib.

        Thanks for playing! Maybe try dumping your silly conspiracy theories and get cozy with God’s Word, eh?

      • Jacob’s trouble lasted 20 years:

        “Thus have I been twenty years in thy house; I served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy cattle: and thou hast changed my wages ten times. – Gen 31:41

        Even if we don’t count the first 7 years because:

        “they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.” – Gen 29:20

        there are still 13 years remaining. NOT 7 years, unless we also substract the 6 years he served for the cattle.

    • Jim Black

      I would like to share with brother Randolph that according to the pre trib view, Jesus will make TWO glorious appearings. The first BEFORE the tribulation (Titus 2:13) and then again AFTER the tribulation (Matt. 24:30).

      Two glorious appearings?

      • Jimmy

        @ Jim

        I don’t get your question.

        Jesus glorious appears IN THE AIR where only his bride will see and meet him and return to Heaven for the Judgement Seat of Christ.

        In Matt 24 Jesus returns TO EARTH in Judgement where EVERY eye will see him.

        it’s really not that difficult…

        • Jim Black

          Hello brother Jimmy,

          Thanks for your reply. All I’m saying is that according to the pre trib view, Jesus must make two glorious appearings. This means he will be gloriously visible when He comes for the church BEFORE the tribulation (Titus 2:13), and then gloriously visible at His second coming as recorded in Matt. 24:30. Is this not TWO glorious appearings?

          Isn’t the pre trib view that Jesus comes “secretly” at a pre trib rapture? If secretly, how could his appearing NOT be glorious? Where do the scriptures say that Jesus will be visible only to the church being raptured and not to people on earth?

          Lord bless

        • Jim Black

          Hello brother Jimmy,

          My first post didn’t get though, so here it is again.

          The pre trib view is that Jesus will come “secretly” at the rapture (Titus 2:13) and visible only to the believers being taken up, and not people on earth. Whether He is visible to the world, or not, Jesus still will make TWO glorious appearings according to the pre trib view, yet Paul says He will come a “second time” (Heb. 9:28). Is His coming at the rapture not a coming (1 Thes. 4:15)?

          I would be most interested in knowing what scriptures support Jesus being seen only by the church, and not people on earth.

          Lord bless

          • Jimmy

            @Jim Black

            The context of Heb 9:28 is the Lord coming a second time ON EARTH, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1-2 KJV (also see Luke 4:17-21 KJV). Notice how Paul is writing to HEBREWS (hence the title of the book); this is one again where RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth comes in to play. The Lord appearing ONLY in the air for his bride has no bearing on this.

            Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV)

            Since the speed of light is 300,000 (or 3×105) km/sec, this means it would take or 1/6 x 10-9 seconds, or 1/6,000,000,000th of a second to make a person’s eyeball twinkle:

            That makes it IMPOSSIBLE for a mortal man to be able to observe, comprehend, and make a full intellectual assessment on what occurred.

            The body of Christ WILL be able to do so however due to having an incorruptible body

            • “Since the speed of light is 300,000 (or 3×105) km/sec, this means it would take or 1/6 x 10-9 seconds, or 1/6,000,000,000th of a second to make a person’s eyeball twinkle:

              That makes it IMPOSSIBLE for a mortal man to be able to observe, comprehend, and make a full intellectual assessment on what occurred.”

              This is ridiculous. Even if people fail to see the event happening, they will still see the disappearance of other people. If millions of people suddenly disappear, (I don’t think the rapture will happens that way), people will know what will have happened, even see the resurrection like the one that happened before:

              “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” – Mat 27:52-54

              That’s why a pre-tribulation rapture is NOT possible, for if people understand that it happened, they are then forced to repent, cry to God and there will be no tribulation. Why will Jews still want to rebuild a temple, do animal sacrifices and accept someone coming in his own name as false messias if they suddenly understand that Jesus came to take his church and that Christianity is real? That has no sense, and that’s why the “rapture” CANNOT take place prior the middle of the tribulation – if we accept a 7 years long tribulation as an unfullfiled 70th week of Daniel 9 –

              But is written:

              “They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.” – Deu 32:21

              Jews are not yet jealous at the millions of Christians from thousands of denominations churches. They only can become jealous after having understood what happened at the said “rapture”, after having been deceived, viewing true Christians walking on the earth with Jesus, on their resurrected body, protected during the tribulation as said in Revelation 3.

            • jIM bLACK

              Well, brother Jimmy, allow me to respond as follows:

              “The context of Heb 9:28 is the Lord coming a second time ON EARTH, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1-2 KJV (also see Luke 4:17-21 KJV).”

              JB – I agree it is His second coming to earth, right after He has raptured the church.

              “The Lord appearing ONLY in the air for his bride has no bearing on this.”

              JB – Why not? In 1 Thes. 4:15 Paul says, “until the COMING of the Lord.” The Greek is “Parousia” and means to “appear, make an appearance.” Is this not a coming, followed by His coming seven years later (Matt. 24:30)? It doesn’t say anywhere that He will appear ONLY to the bride. I believe that is something you are assuming.

              “Since the speed of light is 300,000 (or 3×105) km/sec, this means it would take or 1/6 x 10-9 seconds, or 1/6,000,000,000th of a second to make a person’s eyeball twinkle: That makes it IMPOSSIBLE for a mortal man to be able to observe, comprehend, and make a full intellectual assessment on what occurred. The body of Christ WILL be able to do so however due to having an incorruptible body.”

              JB – Again, I believe you are making an assumption. Besides, the “twinkling of an eye” has nothing to do with seeing Jesus, rather it’s the infinitely small amount of time it will take for the dead in Christ to rise and for the bodily transformation of those who are alive and remain. (Note: If you have never done a word study on “remain,” I encourage you to do so. It throws an interesting light on the timing of the event)

              “The context of Heb 9:28 is the Lord coming a second time ON EARTH….The Lord appearing ONLY in the air for his bride has no bearing on this.”

              JB – Well, I would just disagree on that as noted; His appearing is still a coming (1 Thes. 4:15, 2 Thes. 2:1). I will consider adjusting my view on this if I can see where it says that only the bride will see Him.

              I came across something recently which I would like to share with you. You have probably heard of the “Teachings of the Twelve Apostles,” aka “The Didache”(50-100 AD)* and the “Constitutions of the Apostles.”(375-380 AD)**. In both writings the Apostles teach that the resurrection of the dead follows the “opening of the heavens” (Rev. 6:14, 19:11) and the “sign of the Son of Man”(Matt. 24:30). It all happens AFTER “the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29)

              *Didache – Chap. 16:5,6
              **Constitutions – “Predictions Concerning Futurities” – VII, xxxii

              Lord bless

          • Jimmy

            @ Jim Black

            “JB – I agree it is His second coming to earth, right after He has raptured the church.”

            Ohh! So you believe that the chuch is going to meet Jesus in the air AND THEN return to earth?? If that’s what you believe, then please Biblically explain to me when and where does the Judgement Seat of Christ take place? I’ll take for granted that you both know and understand that the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgement is NOT the same Judgement.

            • Jim Black

              Right, brother Jimmy, the two judgments are not the same. But on your first statement, you apparently missed what I said, His coming to earth immediately follows the rapture. Sorry if I did not make that clear. I believe the “BEMA” judgment for rewards will take place AFTER Jesus comes to earth. There is a 75 day period following Daniel’s 70th week but the Bible doesn’t say anything about what will take place during those days, so I’m only guessing that’s when the judgment seat will take place. It would seem horrible, to me, if saints are being rewarded in heaven while saints on earth are experiencing suffering and tribulation.

              Were you able to check out the Didache and Constitutions of the Apostles to see where they place the resurrection and rapture AFTER the tribulation?

              Lord bless

        • 1 harpazo

          @Jimmy: You said, “Jesus glorious appears IN THE AIR where only his bride will see and meet him and return to Heaven for the Judgement Seat of Christ.

          In Matt 24 Jesus returns TO EARTH in Judgement where EVERY eye will see him.

          it’s really not that difficult…”

          Do you have any scripture to justify your statement, “…where only his bride will see and meet him and return to Heaven…”, more specifically, “only his bride will see…him…”? What scripture says that “his bride will…return to Heaven…”?

    • top

      I subscribe to NTEB and enjoy the informative posts, however I disagree with the pretrib view of the rapture. I have never heard the argument proclaimed in this article but both sides of this issue are sometimes in error in their defense of this important event that is so rapidly approaching.

      I believe the greatest harm is convincing people they will not face the Antichrist and his tribulation he will bring upon the Jews and Christians. There are two sources that need to be studied that will help you understand what the Bible actually says concerning the Rapture and Christ’s second coming. Irving Baxter who publishes EndTime magazine and Marvin Rosenthal who publishes Zion’s Fire magazine and authored the book THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. Both of these have helped me and many others “rightly divide the Word”.

      I look forward to your reply.

      • Huh? You say that you “have never heard the argument proclaimed in this article” yet you also say that you have been a longtime reader of NTEB? We have proclaimed what is in this article since we started in 2009.

      • Jimmy

        @top

        What is the gospel top? Is the gospel believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive salvation as a FREE GIFT of God? (Acts 16:31/ Romans 5 KJV)

        Or is the gospel have the faith and Jesus Christ AND keep his commandments by enduring to the end and not worshiping the beast nor receiving his name, mark, or number? (Rev 14 KJV)

        God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV)

        Once you straighten out your gospel issue you’ll be able to straighten out your rapture issue.

      • top

        I have never heard the argument proclaimed outside of your articles. You bring up things I am not familiar with in my discussions of the rapture. The Bible tells us there will be trials and tribulation for the righteous in Christ Jesus, but in Matthew 24 Jesus tells us there will be a GREAT TRIBULATION that will befall both Jew and Christian and involve the entire world—–a time never before like it and never will be again.

        • Jimmy

          @top

          Jesus was not DOCTRINALLY speaking to Christians in Matt 24 KJV because the body of Christ did not exist in Matt 24. The body of Christ was still a mystery KEPT HIDDEN in God. You MUST RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15 / Romans 16:25 KJV)

      • sharon

        Here are a number of verses that speak of the ‘end’ and the ‘tribulation’. I could understand why there are pre and post tribulation views.

        This one speaks of having to endure to the end..and we are seeing the ‘many being offended’ today and the suppression of God and the hate for Christians..many being beheaded…

        Matthew 24: 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN shall the end come.

        This next one speaks of the Lord coming but many will be left on earth. It doesn’t seem to be anything unusual as people are ‘eating, drinking,marrying etc.

        Matthew 24: 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

        This one speaks of nearly everyone being killed but the Lord stopped it for the sake of the elite

        Matthew: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

        Speak to the Lord..ask Him.

    • Ukulelemike

      1: If the Time of Jacob’s troubles, ie, the Great Tribulation, begins with the Believers in Heaven, please show in scripture, a) where they are called out before it begins, and b) where the Bile says that is a pre-requisite. We neither read a biblical mandate that all believers must be removed before it begins, nor do we see the event occur. That SOME are there, its is true, but they are SOULS under the altar, not in their risen, resurrected forms.
      2: While the argument has been made about Christians going through tribulation, and it applying to the GREAT Tribulation, this is not even a necessary point, as there are many more. For instance, that we are not called to wrath, as the wrath is clearly delineated from the rest of the events, as seen in Rev 14, where the wrath begins to fall, as the winepress of the wrath of God is filled, directly AFTER Jesus, in the clouds, AFTER the seventh, and LAST trumpet, reaps of the earth’s harvest. THIS is a clear picture of the rapture of the church.
      3: Clearly, believers won’t take of the mark of the beast. But also notice, it is not JUST the taking of the mark, it is “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,”. So it is more than the mark, as a mark can be forced upon someone, or put on at birth. It has to be taking the mark, (willingly), AND worship the beast AND his image. Now please don’t misunderstand me, I am not meaning to say it is then alright to take the mark as long as you don’t worship him and his image, rather I am saying, the taking has to be both voluntary, and with the intent of worshipping him. It will all be done as an intentional act of veneration of the Antichrist. No believer will do this-I believe the Lord will keep each of His from falling to it. Remember, we will also be sealed by the Lord-if one has the Spirit of God in them, they are sealed already. So all the things that come upon the world will not effect those sealed by the Spirit of God. We will not be saved by our works-rather, we just will NOT take it. Though most will die because of it.
      4: The man of sin will be ‘revealed’. “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:” (2The 2:1-8). To whom will he be revealed? Clearly, not the lost, for they will believe a lie, they will be fed a great delusion, so clearly he won’t be revealed to them. Then he MUST be revealed to believers. We will know him for who he is. We don’t flee from him, but we know who he is, and we continue on, even in that time, to watch for the coming of Christ.

      • Jimmy

        @Ukulelemike

        1: If the Time of Jacob’s troubles, ie, the Great Tribulation, begins with the Believers in Heaven, please show in scripture, a) where they are called out before it begins,

        ANSWER: 1 Thess 4:14-18 KJV

        and b) where the Bile says that is a pre-requisite.

        ANSWER: The pre-requisite is that you have to have been REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD of the Lamb (Rev 5:9 / Romans 3:24-26 KJV)

        “While the argument has been made about Christians going through tribulation, and it applying to the GREAT Tribulation, this is not even a necessary point, as there are many more. For instance, that we are not called to wrath, as the wrath is clearly delineated from the rest of the events, as seen in Rev 14,”

        WRONG. The Bible clearly states that the wrath of God STILL APPLIES even when its not currently being physically manifested (John 3:36 KJV). Rev 14 states that anyone who gets the mark, name, number, or worship the beast receives God’s wrath. This appears in the BEGINNING of the time of Jacob’s trouble making the ENTIRE time of Jacob’s trouble God’s wrath, although physically manifested later.

        “Clearly, believers won’t take of the mark of the beast.”

        PLEASE provide chapter and verse where it states that the body of Christ is forcefully or automatically restrained from taking the mark of the beast in the time of Jacob’s trouble. If that were the case, there would be NOTHING to endure for!

        In 2 Thess 2:1 KJV is the pre-trib rapture! That’s when we as believers gather together unto the Lord; by meeting him in the air! (1 Thess 4 KJV)

        When the man of sin is revealed, the body of Christ will be looking down from Heaven with the Lord as he opens the seal (Rev 5 KJV)

    • Laura Marie

      Thank you! I wasn’t totally sure if there was something I missed on knowing who it is at the time. For a while I thought that we were to be raptured before he surfaces.

    • amen jimmy, many people think GOD sits on his throne wrapped in an american flag ad paces up and down in fornt of his throne wondering what to do about america but fail to read the verse in the bible that says GOD sits up kingdoms and takes them down for his purposes and tha includes amerca. this world will never be right until GOD rules it from Jerusalem then the world will finally have a just and incorruptible ruler who can’t be influenced by others or their money.

      • Jimmy

        “many people think GOD sits on his throne wrapped in an american flag ad paces up and down in fornt of his throne wondering what to do about america”

        LOL! sad, but true.

    • What does Titus 2:13 have to do with pre or post?

      • Jimmy

        @Sue

        Titus 2:13 CLEARLY tells you that the next event on earth for the body of Christ is the appearing of the Lord, NOT the appearing of the anti-christ. That is the pre-time of Jacob’s trouble catching away.

        A post-tribber is not looking for the Lord to appear, they are looking for the anti-christ to endure. For a post-tribber to teach to look for the Lord’s appearing before FIRST enduring to the end against the anti-christ is in total opposition to post-trib position.

        • Jim Black

          Hello brother Jimmy,

          I was wondering if you have had a chance to check out the “Teachings of the Twelve Apostles and the “Constitutions of the Apostles.” They clearly reveal that they were POST TRIBBERS.

          Please look into these through Google search.

          Lord bless

          • We only go by the Bible here, please tell us where in the King James Bible we will find the “Constitutions of the Apostles.” Thanks!

      • Jim Black

        Hi Sue,

        Because those who believe in a pre trib rapture believe that Titus 2:13 is it. That is glorious appearing #1. #2 is Matt 24:30

        Lord bless

    • Ukulelemike

      @ Jimmy
      1Thes 4 has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture, just the surety of it. “1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

      The clear context of this has nothing to do with the great tribulation or the timing of the rapture, rather it is found in vs 13: “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” The context is found to be the surety of the resurrection, but more so, in the hope we have that we will be reunited with our loved ones who have died in Christ. It has zero, zip, nada to do with missing the tribulation, or that we must be removed before it begins. And in fact, it was this VERY TEACHING that helped begin me on my journey from pre-trib o post-trb/pre-wrath.

      That we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb is that which gives us hope of eternal life, not of being removed from the time of Jacob’s trouble. Again, please show in scripture this connection.

      “WRONG. The Bible clearly states that the wrath of God STILL APPLIES even when its not currently being physically manifested (John 3:36 KJV). Rev 14 states that anyone who gets the mark, name, number, or worship the beast receives God’s wrath. This appears in the BEGINNING of the time of Jacob’s trouble making the ENTIRE time of Jacob’s trouble God’s wrath, although physically manifested later.”

      We are discussing in context of the events of the tribulation and falling of God’s wrath. That wrath abides on those who reject Christ doesn’t change that. Please stay in context. Those who reject Christ are under God’s wrath, BUT, if they repent and are saved, that wrath will then not apply to them. But those who have continued to reject Christ through the time of Jacob’s trouble will ALL fall under the wrath WHEN IT OCCURS after the removal of the saints in Rev 14:14-16. The wrath prepares to fall in Vs 17-20, but fully begins in Rev 16, with the vials of wrath.

      “PLEASE provide chapter and verse where it states that the body of Christ is forcefully or automatically restrained from taking the mark of the beast in the time of Jacob’s trouble. If that were the case, there would be NOTHING to endure for!”

      Matt 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” Apparently, it wont be possible for the elect to be deceived. As such, we will be protected. I don’t know that we will be “forcefully restrained”, as you put it, BUT, we ARE the legal, rightful property of Jesus Christ, paid for on the cross by His blood, and as such, He certainly has the right, legally, morally, and in every way, to keep us from such a thing. We will NOT partake.

      “In 2 Thess 2:1 KJV is the pre-trib rapture! That’s when we as believers gather together unto the Lord; by meeting him in the air! (1 Thess 4 KJV)”

      No, it is the rapture. Any timing is read into it by a preconceived notion, and not scripture. When w gather with the Lord is the rapture-no timing mentioned.

      “When the man of sin is revealed, the body of Christ will be looking down from Heaven with the Lord as he opens the seal (Rev 5 KJV”)

      I see John, and ’24 Elders’ and multitudes of angels, and four living creatures, but no mention of the saints in their raptured, resurrected bodies mentioned.

      • Jimmy

        @ Ukulelemike

        “1Thes 4 has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture, just the surety of it.”

        WRONG. READ verse 14:For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

        This is NOT the gospel in the time of Jacob’s trouble. NOWHERE in the the time of Jacob’s trouble is the gospel believe that Jesus died and rose again and THATS IT. This makes it impossible for the body of Christ to be present on earth during the time of Jacob’s trouble or you MUST now preach that salvation is NOT A FREE GIFT OF GOD. Stop being lazy with your Bible reading.

        “1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

        There are no ‘dead in Christ’ rising first in Matthew 24 or in the time of Jacob’s trouble, Once again, stop being lazy. On top of that, your argument fails on the grounds of God given common sense. How does war, famine, destruction, starvation, death, and natural disasters from God qualify as “words of comfort”?!?

        “That we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb is that which gives us hope of eternal life, not of being removed from the time of Jacob’s trouble. Again, please show in scripture this connection.”

        Your laziness in your Bible reading have led you to be deceived into post-trib heresy and I’ve already showed you the scripture concerning this:

        In the book of Revelation, there are those who have been redeemed to God by the blood (Rev 5:9 KJV) and those who HAD TO wash their robes and MAKE THEM white in the blood of the Lamb by going through Great tribulation (Rev 7:14 KJV). These two groups ARE NOT THE SAME.

        “We are discussing in context of the events of the tribulation and falling of God’s wrath. That wrath abides on those who reject Christ doesn’t change that. Please stay in context. Those who reject Christ are under God’s wrath, BUT, if they repent and are saved, that wrath will then not apply to them. But those who have continued to reject Christ through the time of Jacob’s trouble will ALL fall under the wrath WHEN IT OCCURS”

        WRONG. In context, there is NO SUCH THING as repentance AFTER you take the mark! That’s why the wrath of God applies throughout the time of Jacob’s trouble! After you get the mark, you can worship and receive Christ all you want to but you are STILL under God’s wrath although not physically manifested!

        “Matt 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” Apparently, it wont be possible for the elect to be deceived. As such, we will be protected. I don’t know that we will be “forcefully restrained”, as you put it, BUT, we ARE the legal, rightful property of Jesus Christ, paid for on the cross by His blood, and as such, He certainly has the right, legally, morally, and in every way, to keep us from such a thing. We will NOT partake.”

        WHAT?? Talk about ripping verses out of context, the body of Christ was neither present nor revealed in Matt 24. In Matt 24 God’s elect are LITERAL, PHYSICAL, JEWS. In the book of Revelation, God’s sealed elect are LITERAL, PHYSICAL, JEWS (Revelation 7 KJV). Even the Apostle Paul instructs the Christian that the LITERAL, PHYSICAL, JEW is God’s elect (2 Tim 2:10 KJV).

        Straighten out the gospel and you’ll straighten out your post-rapture heresy.

    • Heather

      As I was reading my Bible, I came across this verse of Isaiah 11:11-12 and it made me think the following verse in Mark 24 listed below. Jimmy or Geoffrey in your opinion, are these two verses referring to the same event? Reading the context in Isaiah 11:10-16 it appears that they are the same. Once again, thank you brother Jimmy for another great article!

      Isaiah 11:11-12 (KJV)
      11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his
      people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

      12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

      Matthew 24:31 (KJV)

      31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    • sharon

      I wholeheartedly agree with the ‘twinkle of an eye’ being Time manipulation. This is spoken of through the Scripts.
      An example of this is in the verse…
      Psalms 18: “He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.” (KJV)

      This verse holds some of the hidden knowledge.
      Many have heard that verse over and over but never really thought too much about it. Well..to ‘BOW’ is to bend..and the ‘HEAVENS’ is space..ie..Space Bending. Time manipulation!! Then that opens up the verse ‘with the Lord a day can be a thousand years and a thousand years can be a day..’ More Time manipulation!! ..Don’t just say it is ‘interpretation’ as there is absolutely no other explanation for that verse..’He bowed the heavens and come down’…and here is the earth applauding Einstein when it was already written about (and active) centuries ago. There is a whole other world up there and a lot of hidden Knowledge that He said He would reveal and I believe we have come far enough to understand. ‘Blessed are they that believe BEFORE they see’.
      I will say again…’Call out to Me and I will show you GREAT and UNSEARCHABLE things that you do not know’. Things that cannot be proven by earthly means..things that are so much higher than what they know here on earth…(although there has been talk of ‘Time manipulation’ here on earth over the past years). The Lord is the Master of Time..hence knowing all that is to happen..hence using His Mastery to go back and have the future written for us…hence knowing us before we were even born..hence the verse….. ‘All the days fashioned for me are written in Your book…’
      Hence being outside of Time itself… to be everywhere at once.

      Praise the Lord Jesus Christ..His Higher thoughts.

      • Heather

        @Sharon, I appreciate what you posted. God bless you sister!

        Ecclesiastes 3:11 (KJV)

        11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

        1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV)

        9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

      • MRH

        @ sharon: Well God created the universe, so should he not be able to bend and shape it? 😉

        P.S. Our knowledge of the universe is about worthless. And heavens technology dwarfs ours 😉

    • Ukulelemike

      @ jimmy:
      “This is NOT the gospel in the time of Jacob’s trouble. NOWHERE in the the time of Jacob’s trouble is the gospel believe that Jesus died and rose again and THATS IT. This makes it impossible for the body of Christ to be present on earth during the time of Jacob’s trouble or you MUST now preach that salvation is NOT A FREE GIFT OF GOD. Stop being lazy with your Bible reading.”

      There is no difference in the way of salvation between now and then. What you see as something else is simply the act of accepting the wrong person to worship as God, hence idolatry, which is still wrong: they will believe upon a false God rather than Jesus for salvation, and a primary reason is because they will have already rejected Jesus beforehand.
      “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2The 2:10-12).
      These have already rejected Christ, so they will be fed a delusion by the Lord to follow the antichrist. Salvation by grace through faith, and damnation for rejection. And of course, there will be those going into that time who will not have had opportunity to choose, who will not be given the delusion-so some will receive, some will reject.

      Mat 24:29-31 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      THIS is the rapture-notice the trumpet, the collecting of the elect, after the tribulation of those days. The elect are not just Jews, WE are elect, as well.

      “In the book of Revelation, there are those who have been redeemed to God by the blood (Rev 5:9 KJV) and those who HAD TO wash their robes and MAKE THEM white in the blood of the Lamb by going through Great tribulation (Rev 7:14 KJV). These two groups ARE NOT THE SAME.”

      Nowhere does the Bible even intimate that these HAD to wash their robes by going through the tribulation, merely that they had. Let scripture speak “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” They came out of great tribulation-true. They washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb-true. But by going through great tribulation is not how they washed their robes-they washed them in the blood of the Lamb the same way anyone else does-by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. No one will be saved by their works. You assume half of what you calim to be Bible, things that are just plain neither there, nor intimated.

      WRONG. In context, there is NO SUCH THING as repentance AFTER you take the mark! That’s why the wrath of God applies throughout the time of Jacob’s trouble! After you get the mark, you can worship and receive Christ all you want to but you are STILL under God’s wrath although not physically manifested!

      We are apparently on different wavelengths here-I never said one could repent after taking the mark and worshiping the beast-I believe it will be a done deal, in accepting the antichrist as your god. I just don’t believe a born-again believer will do it. Period. We belong to Christ and just as he has the right to cause those who have rejected Him to fall to a great delusion unto their damnation, so He has the right and authority to cause those who are His to NOT fall to such.

      Look, I won’t waste any more of your time-this is pointless. You will continue to work in assumption to fit your view and ignore all the plain scripture given. Personally, I don’t see it as such a huge deal-I am born again by grace through faith, as I believe you to be-how we view this doesn’t effect that at all.

      • Jimmy

        @Ukulelemike
        “There is no difference in the way of salvation between now and then.”

        As I stated to you earlier, straighten out your gospel and you’ll straighten out the rapture.

        If you see no difference in the plan of salvation between Eph 2:8-9 and Rev 14:12 KJV, you are either illiterate or lost.

      • Heather

        @Ukulelemike
        You quoted Matthew 24:29-31 “THIS is the rapture-notice the trumpet, the collecting of the elect, after the tribulation of those days. The elect are not just Jews, WE are elect, as well.”

        So if the rapture happens after the tribulation and ALL the elect are gathered, and our bodies are changed in that moment, then who is it that will enter into the Millineal Kingdom and replenish the earth?
        Also where does it show the dead rising first?

        • ukulelemike

          Great question, Heather. The answer is found in Matt 25 and Zech 14:

          Matt 25:31 “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
          32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:”

          For the sake of space, I won’t put the entire scripture here, but please feel free to read it yourself. However, notice the setting: When the Son of man shall come in His glory…” Okay, this is the return of Jesus at the beginning of the millennial reign. And he gathers all the remaining people together and judges them. But by what? By works, not at all what they did with Christ, OR the Antichrist. ALL they are judged on is how they treated the people of God during the period of tribulation. Some had pity on them, helped them, clothed and fed them, not because they agreed with their theology, but out of plain human pity. These are allowed to enter the kingdom. Those who had no pity, perhaps these were followers of the beast, these had no pity, either ignoring them and leaving them to their fate, or even actively persecuting them. These are cast into everlasting damnation. Those allowed in will still have to accept Christ as Saviour, but they come bodily into the kingdom.

          Zech 14:16 “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”

          While Zech 14:16 is much shorter, it shows the same people-those left of the nations that came against Jerusalem-not the armies, who are destroyed, but the citizens. While it is much briefer, this is the same people as the sheep from the sheep and goats, they enter the kingdom in the flesh.

          • Heather

            @Ukulelemike, that was a nice try in your attempt to answer the question. It really was. Although It appears to me from your choosing this specific scripture and your explanation of it, that you believe the sheep are allowed to enter into the Millineal Kingdom on the basis that they gave food, water, and clothing to “Christians”? There are many scriptures that show no unbeliever will enter the Millineal Kingdom.
            These who provided food and water got saved in the tribulation. They are already saved when Jesus is saying these things to them. Lets evaluate the verses you posted.Look down at Matthew 25 : 37
            Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)
            31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his
            glory:
            32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his
            sheep from the goats:
            33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left
            34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for
            you from the foundation of the world:
            35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
            36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
            37 Then shall the RIGHTEOUSanswer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee
            drink?
            38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
            39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
            40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of
            these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
            41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
            and his angels:
            42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
            43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
            44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
            45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
            46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

            • Heather

              2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 (KJV)
              7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
              8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

              2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV)
              10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
              11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
              12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    • It seems clear to many of us that tribulation has increased world wide, and that it is getting worse daily. I agree that this is not yet the time of Jacob’s Troubles, but soon it will be. Many prophets, and Jesus, warned us that we would suffer much tribulation because of our faith in Him. History shows that this has been so throughout the ages. Even so, the tribulation today is more widespread and affects many more people than before. There is a strong case to make that we are in the first stages of the tribulation described in The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Already we are seeing the dispersion of a whole nation as Syria ceases to be a nation, Damascus will become a rubble heap. These things are stated in detail in Isaiah chapter 17. At that time Jacob will be made thin. It seems therefore that the time of Jacob’s Trouble is almost upon us. Yet we are still here. I will not list the scriptures that attest to the tribulation of believers as they are many. On balance I believe there may be a mid-trib removal of many to the wedding feast of The Lamb. These are all who have endured without losing faith; and all who have been stuck down because of their faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We are not saved by good works yet being saved through Grace by our faith in Yeshua ha Mashiac does not relieve us of the responsibility of walking in the Ways of God. God is not mocked.

    • Ukulelemike

      @Jimmy

      Not sure what you mean by this-I agree, there is no difference in salvation between now, (or Eph2:8,9 and Rev 14) and the time of the great tribulation-I never implied a difference, I in fact, sad there was no difference. It seems you have that issue. Those believers who go into the tribulation period will remain saved, and cannot follow the antichrist because they belong to God. Those who go in unsaved, who have previously rejected Jesus Christ WILL be given a strong delusion to believe a lie, and will fall to worship of the Beast. Those who enter the tribulation who have NOT rejected Jesus Christ, yet are not born again, will have the option to follow Christ or the Beast.

      See, I have my gospel straight-“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
      “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

      So I’m not sure why you are having an issue with my understanding of the gospel, unless you just aren’t reading my posts very well. You DO seem to make a lot of assumptions in scripture, so it would make sense you do it about my posts, as well.

      • Ukulelemike

        Wait I se what you are saying: Rev 14:12 is not a description of salvation, just a statement concerning the saints. By the way, saints SHOULD keep the commandments, though they would be the commandments of the New Testament, not those of Sinai. But it is in no way implying that to be saved during the tribulation one must keep the commandments, just saying they DO. Again, another baseless assumptions, designed to create a false gospel. If anyone, even an angel from heaven, teaches a different gospel, let him be anathema. There is one gospel of salvation, period, By grace through faith in Jesus Christ. YOU need to get your gospel straight.

        • Jimmy

          @ Ukulelemike

          “Rev 14:12 is not a description of salvation, just a statement concerning the saints”

          It absolutely is a descriptive of salvation because the very verse above it tells you that those who DID NOT keep God’s commandments and worshiped the beast and received his name, mark, and number are damned ETERNALLY. Works for Salvation is the context.

          “But it is in no way implying that to be saved during the tribulation one must keep the commandments, just saying they DO”

          YES IT DOES. The ones who keep the God’s commandments are the ones that don’t violate Rev 14:9 KJV. I’ve never seen someone reject this much plain scripture its sad.

          “There is one gospel of salvation, period, By grace through faith in Jesus Christ. YOU need to get your gospel straight”

          Please provide me chapter and verse where the gospel of the grace of God was preached BEFORE Christ revealed it to the Apostle Paul

          Don’t worry i’ll wait…

    • “This is not historical/general tribulation. Never in history has ANY Christian been forbidden from buying or selling unless they receive the name, number, or mark of the beast.”

      Pope Alexander III “passed a law that no man should presume to receive or assist the heretics, no not so much as to exercise commerce with them in selling or buying” (Horae Apocalypticae, London: Seeley, Burnside, Seeley, 1847, III.221; emp. original). Elliott further noted that the execution of this policy “throughout the history of Popedom is notorious.” He argued that the practice was still employed in his day in Ireland.

      By way of contrast, those who received not the mark (i.e., did not yield to the doctrinal corruption) were unable to buy or sell, hence suffered persecution, as illustrated by the economic deprivation.

      • Jimmy

        @ Marc

        So you’re saying that Pope Alexander was the beast?!?

        ROTFL!!!!!!

        • I only say that there HAS BEEN in history Christians that were unable to buy or sell and that were persecuted for not receiving a religious mark, in opposition to the article that says that this never happened before.

          “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” – 1 John 2:18

          • Jimmy

            @Marc

            You seem to have trouble reading marc. The article specifically stated forbidden to buy or sell unless they receive THE MARK OF THE BEAST.

            Unless you’re calling Pope Alexander the beast, IT’S NEVER HAPPEN TO ANY CHRISTIAN IN HERESY.

            • Whatever special and strong can be a persecution, a mark, a beast, an earthquake, a wrath, the stars falling on the earth, or anything else that already happened, pretribultionists would always argue that there will be another stronger, more special, “different” persecution, mark, beast, earthquake, wrath, stars falling on the earth, or anything elseone in the future, as long as they have not yet been raptured before. They are so stubborn with their pre-tribulation rapture that even if the whole earth is destroyed, as long as they are still surviving on it, they will never acknowledge that the end has come. Maybe some of them that are not saved will be burning in hell still waiting for their “blessed hope” !!!

      • MRH

        @ Marc: The ‘mark’ is the RFID chip. The purpose being to enslave the populace. It’s presently under development and testing. The NWO consists of three parts; government, economy, religion. The hub of the NWO is the UN. Such controls many elements including; agriculture, education, financial, religion, science, etc.I suggest you research matters 💡 😉

        • @MRH: Some said before that it was a barcode, now it has become a RFID, and in the future who knows what invention will replace the RFID. Read Revelation 13: it is a MARK, something printed, not an implanted device:

          χάραγμα
          charagma
          khar’-ag-mah
          From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): – graven, mark.

          RFID have been used for years in domestic animals without problems. Now the book of Revelation says that people who has been marked will suffer a grievous sore as the result of the first vial of the wrath of God:

          “And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.” – Rev 16:2

          True Christians also have a mark: the seal of God in their foreheads:

          “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.” – Rev 9:4

          That has a symbolic meaning, God doesn’t implant a “holy RFID” in the true believers!

          BEFORE ROTFL SUGGESTING PEOPLE TO DO RESEARCH OR ACCUSING THEM OF HAVING A READING PROBLEM, YOU AND JIMMY, LEARN YOURSELVES TO BE MORE OPEN-MINDED TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE “RAPTURE” MAY BE OTHER THAN PRETRIB, INSTEAD OF DEFENDING WITH NON-SENSE ARGUMENTS A NON-SENSE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE YOUR EYES CLOSED!

          • MRH

            @ Marc: According to the power elite faction, the RFID system will be used to enslave the remaining populace after the depopulation agenda is completed. The bar code is now being built into the RFID system to control commerce. Seemingly innocent now, as with other things. But the powers behind things are anything but innocent. Anyway, you need to pull your head out of the sand, and wake up from the darkness which blinds you. And that journey begins below 🙂

            http://aeroventure.com/Wonderland/Wonderland.htm

            P.S. I have my own end time theories, I don’t follow the common crowds 😉

            • Then the RFID was already in use, implanted in the right hand 2000 years ago when Jesus said:

              “And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. For it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Mat 5:30 KJV 1611)

              A drastic measure to get rid of the RFID, lol… Or you just extract the RFID and hide it in a bandage that you wear above your hand when it must be scanned at the cashier…

            • MRH

              @ Marc: No, RFID is a modern thing. Also you misinterpret Ma 5:30. Anyway, you don’t understand things 🙁 Unfortunately the only reference to the unholy ‘mark’ is in Revelation, but with limited information. But no matter what the ‘mark’ entails, a true Christian is safe from the fire 😀

            • @ MRH:
              I know al these things better than you and you are mocking me! You cannot even laugh, you are so stubborn and unable to accept, even for fun, things that differ from what is teached in theology schools, ie a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel, an unfullfilled 70th week, a pretribulation rapture, a 666 electronic payment system, etc… I studied all these things along with all the alternative rapture timing, pre, mid, post, pre-wrath, multiple, etc. 30 years ago! And I have studied some electronic too, got a pilot license and now perfectly what is a RFID and a transponder! But I am before all a musician, a true classic musician, not a demonic guitar scratcher. And if you are still going to a local “church”, open your eyes and see that the church – and all form of organized religion, – “is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.” (Rev 18:2) and that true believers are called to “come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” (Rev 18:4)

          • MRH

            @ Marc: Concerning RFID system 😉

            https://youtu.be/jzoU7zZt4E0

    • Pingback: Tribulation As A Condition Is Not The Same As The Event Of The Time Of Jacob’s Trouble |()

    • Bryan

      I have seen more stories than ever about pre-trib on this website after the interview with Kent Hovind. Has the man placing stories on this website even entertained the thought that Kent could be right and pre-trib theology wrong. Kent explained himself very well and if that interview was a debate, Kent won it. I am not exactly sure at what part of Revelation Kent is placing the rapture (I’m still listening to his teaching). If you place the “Wrath of the Lamb” starting at the beginning of Revelation 6 it makes perfect sense. Chapter 5 is Tribulation period, Christ breaks the seals but it is man who is destroying each other, not God. Who ever said Matt. 24 doesn’t apply to Christians? Show me other scripture that says Matt. 24 doesn’t apply to all Christians. If that doesn’t apply then I guess Thessalonians doesn’t apply either? Do we pick scripture that doesn’t agree with a pre-trib and say, well that only applies to Israel…..I am not through listening to Kent’s study on end times but it is making more sense than any pre-trib teaching I have ever heard. His teaching on Daniel makes sense. Listen to him and study his charts then make a decision. It is not ungodly to question pre-trib rapture theology or to disagree with pre-trib. It’s studying scripture.

      • ukulelemike

        Sadly, to many, it is a frightening prospect, and they cannot bear the thought and will fight tooth and nail, make assumptions that aren’t there to fill in the blanks. And I don’t say this in a poor spirit, but because I did that very thing for many years. I was a pre-trib rapture believer, and was taught that from my earliest years as a believer, since 1972. Of course, the rapture was all the rage back then, with the Thief in the Night movies and Hal Lindsey and such. It wasn’t until someone very close to my challenged me to fully study it out, and even then, it took me a year, not just to be convinced, but to ALLOW myself to be convinced. After all, who wants to go through that time? I don’t. But in the end, I had to decide, Who did I want to please? Myself? My wife, (who challenged me)? My pastor friends who would reject me if I changed positions? Or the Lord? In the end, I accepted it because I wanted to please my God and my Saviour. So I understand it and I don’t look down on any who hold to pre-trib and do so tenaciously, because I did for a long time.

        • Thank’s to God !
          Pretribulationists remember me of Arab people in Jerusalem purposefully destructing objects from Jewish temple found during archeologic excavations, throwing these objects in the dumpsite rather than allowing themselves to be convinced about the truth and be set free…

    • ukulelemike

      @ Jimmy:
      I said:
      “Rev 14:12 is not a description of salvation, just a statement concerning the saints”

      You said:
      “It absolutely is a descriptive of salvation because the very verse above it tells you that those who DID NOT keep God’s commandments and worshiped the beast and received his name, mark, and number are damned ETERNALLY. Works for Salvation is the context.”

      No, it doesn't say that. No sure what version you're using. Again, let Scripture speak: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Rev 14:11) No mention of not keeping commandments, jus worshipping the beast and his image and taking his mark. Hence, they have rejected Jesus and accepted a false god. Rejection of Jesus Christ is damnation. Period.

      “But it is in no way implying that to be saved during the tribulation one must keep the commandments, just saying they DO”

      YES IT DOES. The ones who keep the God’s commandments are the ones that don’t violate Rev 14:9 KJV. I’ve never seen someone reject this much plain scripture its sad.

      And what do they do in Rev 14:9? Receive the Beast as their god. Take his mark, and worship him and his image. Again, rejection of Christ. No works involved-they reject Jesus Christ, they receive damnation.

      “There is one gospel of salvation, period, By grace through faith in Jesus Christ. YOU need to get your gospel straight”

      Please provide me chapter and verse where the gospel of the grace of God was preached BEFORE Christ revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

      “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:6-9)
      There is no other gospel that can bring salvation but this one gospel. Else Paul is a liar. Or Christ is a liar. Who will you call liar?

      Don’t worry i’ll wait…

      • Jimmy

        @ukule

        You avoided the question:

        Please provide me chapter and verse where the gospel of the grace of God was preached BEFORE Christ revealed it to the Apostle Paul?

        • UKULELEMIKE

          John 3:16

          • Bravo!

            • It seems that pretribers have “rightly divided the word of God” in John 3:16 OUT of themselves! (because they cannot accept that Matthiew 24 or anything written before what is revealed to the Apostle Paul is for the church)
              After all they may be right when they say that believing in a particular timing of the rapture has an influence on the salvation…

    • Char

      Well, Jimmy and Geoffrey, looks like us pre-tribbers can talk til Jesus raptures us out of here BEFORE the tribulation because some post-tribbers will NEVER be convinced til we are there at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb and the A.C. is working full force down here. It’s very simple to see that we are going to be raptured BEFORE the tribulation. Jesus is going to revert back to the law and we can’t mix law and grace, so the grace will be up there enjoying our feast while God is dealing with the Jews and others that are left behind. As it says when the last GENTILE has come in, then we will be raptured! God Bless your ministry. See you in the air, hopefully very soon!

      • [quote]
        “Jesus is going to revert back to the law and we can’t mix law and grace”
        [end of quote]

        “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom” – Mt 27:50-51

        So, according to pretribbers, when Jesus will come back, he will repick the veil of the temple because he is going to cancel his grace and revert back to the law ???

        “Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith” – Roma 3:29-30

    • char

      Jimmy and Geoffrey, looks like us pre-tribbers can talk til Jesus raptures us out of here BEFORE the tribulation because some post-tribbers will NEVER be convinced til we are there at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb and the A.C. is working full force down here. It’s very simple to see that we are going to be raptured BEFORE the tribulation. Jesus is going to revert back to the law and we can’t mix law and grace, so the grace will be up there enjoying our feast while God is dealing with the Jews and others that are left behind. As it says when the last GENTILE has come in, then we will be raptured! Kinda sad that they don’t get it! God Bless your ministry. See you in the air, hopefully very soon!

    • char

      Sorry about the 2 postings, but it kept saying “looks like you already said that” and it wouldn’t go through, but then it did. Weird!

    • MRH

      Folks: Just a few pertinent points always ignored or twisted in light of rapture vs. tribulation controversy 😉

      #1) The resurrection and rapture are not the same event 😉
      #2) The resurrection occurs right before the end begins 😉
      #3) The beast and mark occur during the end or harvest 😉

      Ok, with that all said, below is my studied take on things. According to Daniel, the tribulation does not begin until the abomination is placed in the temple. Which means that the temple must be built well before, and that the animal sacrifice ritual is well in progress. Also this daily dramatic event will be broadcast worldwide according to the Jews. But for the temple to rise, peace must prevail in the land. At the present time the temple can’t be built due to continual conflict between Jews and Muslims. In fact both Jews and Christians are not even allowed to practice their faith on the temple mount. Go here for further knowledge – http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

      The scripture does not clearly detail the second coming, except to say that we are glorified at his first appearance, which is the first stage. Afterwards the end of the world begins, ending with dramatic second stage. As for the tribulation, it begins after the abomination is placed in the temple. But nowhere does it say that the rapture occurs prior. But it does say that the kingdom is later delivered up to God, which is when the gathering event occurs. It also says that we will be judging the world and fallen angels which rule it. Also where does it say that the church returns with Christ? It doesn’t. Rather it says that Christ returns with his holy ‘mighty’ angels 😉

      1Co 15:20-26 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept [#1]. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming [#2]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father [#3]; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

      2Th 1:7-10 KJV – And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels [#4], In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

      #1 Christ as the first of the harvest 🙂
      #2 Indicating the resurrection of the saints 🙂
      #3 Concerning the rapture of the resurrected saints 🙂
      #4 Depicting the glorious appearance with his holy angels 🙂

      1Co 15:49-53 KJV – And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

      Note: The above passage does not indicate any rapture aspect, only the resurrection effect. Why? Because the resurrection and rapture are different events divided by time, just was the case with Jesus. In fact after his resurrection he preached for 40 days before ascending to heaven. So then why would God rapture us to heaven immediately on Christ’s return? Also if we are already in heaven before tribulation, then what’s the point of the delivering the kingdom to God? 🙁

      2Co 5:1-4 KJV – For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

      Note: At Christs return we are immediately immortalized. Which means we will no longer be flesh beings subject unto sin and death. We will no longer be connected to the world even though we are here. Our earthly bodies remain behind in whatever state we left them in. At the end we are raptured (kingdom delivered to God) 😉

      The bible doesn’t say anything in regards as to what our immortal tasks will be. But I suspect it will involve dealing with dark angels on their level. Which we can’t do in our present mortal form. As Paul states.. “we shall judge angels” 🙂

      1Co 6:2-3 KJV – Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

      Note: For us to be able to judge the world and dark angels, we would have to be immortalized first, else they would simply kill us off. Like they are already doing with persecutions and tribulations today, and tomorrow will be much much worse. Also if we are up in heaven, how can we judge the world and the angels whom rule it? 🙁

      Also scripture is clear that ‘all’ suffer tribulation? But do ‘all’ suffer wrath (THE END)? Only the heathen will endure such, and many will become martyrs! For the church to endure THE END, we would have to be as the angels? For THE END will be terrible unto all points and purposes! But we are still saved from wrath, as we will be fearless immortals then. However scripture doesn’t detail things. Even so, I still stand my ground, that all tribulation theories are flawed. For one thing, the beast and his mark occur during the wrath, or latter half of the tribulation. Which also signals the end of this wicked world. The next world stage begins with the millennium, and ends with the final judgment of the raised wicked. Followed by the new heaven and earth or paradise 😀

      P.S. I’m not here to play tradition games. I’m here to share knowledge as I understand it. And of course you are free to tear me into pieces over my often contrary viewpoints. But isn’t that exactly what ravenous wolves do to innocent sheep? Consider below scripture 😉

      Gal 5:13-16, 24-26 KJV – For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. … And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    • Most Christians better hope it’s pre-trib because they can barely serve God in easy times… However, if the “pre-tribbers” are wrong then many Believers are in big trouble…

      More End Times News At:
      http://www.shininginthedark.com/?page_id=3755

      • MRH

        @ Dan: Doesn’t matter, as all Christians are saved 😀
        Though none of us are exempt from natural death 🙁

    • ROSSANO WAGNER

      I feel that the Church of Christ will be here for the Great Tribulation, that’s how the tare will be separated from the wheat.

      “Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
      He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
      The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
      Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
      The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
      Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
      He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
      Matthew 13:36-43

      • MRH

        @ ROSSANO WAGNER: The present church will be present on earth until the witness aspect is over (after noted tribulation). After tribulation is the wrath ‘harvest’ period 😉 Matthew doesn’t detail much but Luke does 🙂

        Luk 21:25-27 KJV – And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

        Also note the words ‘tribulation of those days’ (Matthew 24:29). And also the prior passage (27-28) which concerns the holy return.. like a lightening flash. Or rather blink of an eye. In other words ‘instant’. That’s how fast Christ will appear, and the world will not notice, only the after effects. Dead bodies of the saints and global chaos caused by their sudden absence. For the world will not see us as we will be invisible unto them being spirit beings.. like the angels 😉

        P.S. The four Gospels differ in detail aspects, and so must be combined to see the full picture 😉

      • Kiwiwatcher

        Glad you bought that up Rossano – every time the Son of Man (other than in Daniel) is mentioned – the reference is for the Jewish Nation, and not the True Church. “Son of Man” appears 89 times in the Gospels, three times in Acts, once in Ephesians, Thessalonians, Hebrews and twice in Revelation. ‘Son of Man’ is a Jewish term.

        • MRH

          @ Kiwiwatcher: The “Son of Man” refers to Jesus Christ. He was God incarnate on earth, and the Son of God 😉

          P.S. The bible is a Jewish book, as was written by Jews NOT Gentiles. Paul was a Jew, or were you not aware?

          • Kiwiwatcher

            MRH – Thanks. Titles are significant in Scripture as you are aware. Mingle and match of them is a dangerous option. “Son of Man” is for the Jews so whenever the title “Son of Man” is utilized – the reference is to the JEWS.
            My apology, as “Son of Man” is not recorded in any of the Epistles as I first thought, which is further support – only in the four Gospels, Revelation and Daniel. Accordingly, when reading the Scriptures it is apparent that “the Son of Man” reference is directed to the Jewish Nation.

            To me – a member of the True Church, soon to be Raptured prior to any tribulation/Jacobs Trouble, it is erroneous to call Jesus Christ – “the Son of Man”, as the title “Son of Man” has nothing to do with the True Church, and is mixing Judaism with Christianity. – Enjoy

            • MRH

              @ Kiwiwatcher: The “Son of Man” refers to his flesh form. The “Son of God” refers to his spirit nature 😉

              1Co 15:21-23, 42-49 KJV – For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. … So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH – You are stating that “Son of Man” will leave Heaven, from seated at the right hand of God, and arrive on earth for His second coming, having a body of flesh and blood.
              Matt 24:27 “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”
              And Matthew 24:30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

              Can you please provide the Scriptures that supports your claim?

        • MRH

          “MRH – You are stating that “Son of Man” will leave Heaven, from seated at the right hand of God, and arrive on earth for His second coming, having a body of flesh and blood.”

          @ Kiwiwatcher: I said nothing of the sort! Jesus is not of human form now.. “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.” Jesus is the last Adam.. a spirit being. And so will we saints be the same spirit form in our resurrection 😉

          1Co 15:49, 53 KJV – And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

          Rom 8:11 KJV – But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

          Luk 20:34-36 KJV – And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

          Gen 6:3 KJV – And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

          • Kiwiwatcher

            MRH – Oh Yes You Did.

            You said “the Son of Man” refers to his flesh form – did you not????

            I know the Scriptures provided as they are written, but they are not an answer to my question. Just apply yourself to the task at hand please.

            You can not deny what you said earlier.

            The Bible, the Word of God – the Scriptures clearly state Matt 24:27 “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”

            And Matthew 24:30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

            Therefore, you definitely concluded the “Son of Man” will leave Heaven, from seated at the right hand of God, and arrive on earth for His second coming, having a body of flesh and blood.

            So how do you justify your statement regarding the flesh state of “the Son of Man” and the two verses I have provided from the Book of Matthew. Just those two verses please.

            Goodness me….not looking good at all.

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH – you said “The “Son of Man” refers to his flesh form”

              Please justify your conclusion with the Word of God which states in Luke 22:69 “Hereafter shall the Son of Man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”

              This is very important as it demonstrates a Scriptural ability

            • MRH

              @ Kiwiwatcher: How do you expect me to explain my statement using only those two vague verses? I can’t as not enough information to work with. So let me ask you, is Jesus coming as a man or ghost? How did he rise as, a man or ghost? Consider related scripture 😉

              Act 1:11 KJV – Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

              P.S. Again ‘Son of man’ refers to his bodily appearance. And ‘Son of God’ refers to his holy birth aspect 😉

            • Kiwiwatcher

              Utter rubbish MRH – The verses are not vague at all!!! The Scriptures just dont allow you any wriggle room – Do They??
              These are the verses most of the anti-pretribulation Rapture brigade use, like you do – therefore I am intrigued as to how you interpret them.

              How do I expect you to explain???? Just tell how the FLESH FORM of Jesus Christ shall appear in Heaven, sits at the right hand of God, and returns for the Second Coming – all in the flesh as you claim. You have portrayed yourself as a “know-it-all” – therefore your task is easy. Just support what comes out of your mouth, without going off topic.

              You have yet to answer my question, or at least, Scripturally support your own statement that reference to “the Son of Man” is His flesh form, as you so boldly declare. (a little like the rest of your opinion up and down this page)

              No distractions, or side shows. The answer does not lie in asking me a question. This is very very easy. You have made a statement ” “The “Son of Man” refers to his flesh form”
              And I have given you three clear and precise verses Matt 24:27, Matt 24:30, Luke 22:69. You can now justify or reconcile your statement or claim……that the “Son of Man” refers to his flesh form, of which you were so proud to inform me of earlier.

              Simple to answer or you have been uttering pure heresy.

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH – Jesus said “the Son of Man” is seated at the right hand of God Luke 22:69. Jesus also said there will be a sign of “the Son of Man” in Heaven, and “the Son of Man” will be coming in the clouds for his return to earth.

              You said “the Son of Man” is a title meaning the flesh form, but that is not Scriptural as we know that the flesh form can not be in Heaven.

              Therefore, someone is wrong and telling lies – Jesus or YOU MRH?

            • MRH

              @ Kiwiwatcher: Before we continue crazy debate, whom are you; friend, foe? Your ‘owl’ avatar suggests latter. After all the ‘owl’ is of Illuminati game? Or were you not aware of such (owlfeatures)? But your accusations are not unlike the ones of the Pharisees whom derided Jesus. So again, is ours a friendly debate or NOT? Are U holy?

              P.S. I’ve better things to do than debating with demons. For such is always a losing battle, as pointless game! 🙁

            • Kiwiwatcher

              Another attempt to divert attention away from a well and truly sunken ship methinks. There is no continuation. You had your opportunity numerous times, but YOU HAVE FAILED the simple exercise. My job is done here as you have exposed yourself admirably.

              The only crazy debate is between your ears. I have merely asked you a question three times. The answer please??

              Jesus said “the Son of Man” is seated at the right hand of God, also said there will be a sign of “the Son of Man” in Heaven, and “the Son of Man” will be coming in the clouds for his return to earth.

              You said the title “the Son of Man” refers to his flesh form, thereby declaring the flesh and blood of Jesus is seated in Heaven. Where is your supporting Scriptures please?? As the Word of God differs very much from you.

              Regardless, You are WRONG. You are a liar and spew out an unsound doctrine.

              As you refuse to support your twisted statement(s) I shall continue as permitted. 1 John 4:1 “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

              Also You are the author of confusion.
              1 Corthinthians 14:33 “For God is not the author of confusion…..”

              Some advice you have dished out to others, which you should heed.
              MRH to Marc: “The hub of the NWO is the UN. Such controls many elements including; agriculture, education, financial, religion, science, etc.I suggest you research matters”

              MRH to Marc: “According to the power elite faction, the RFID system will be used to enslave the remaining populace…. Anyway, you need to pull your head out of the sand, and wake up from the darkness which blinds you. And that journey begins below. P.S. I have my own end time theories, I don’t follow the common crowds”

              MRH to Char: “You need to study scripture better”

              MRH to no-one in particular: “P.S. I’m not here to play tradition games.” – I now reply – perhaps refraining from playing games altogether would be a great start.

              MRH to Kiwiwatcher: “P.S. I’ve better things to do than debating with demons. For such is always a losing battle, as pointless game!” – That is a most bizarre statement. A real eye-opener as any True Born-again Christian has no difficulty with demons. 1 John 5:4 “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

              Then MRH, as a keyboard warrior, you provided your own favorite satanic website related to the fairy tale alice in wonderland, and finding carrots down rabbit holes, dripping with American jargon, the new Atlantis, secret architecture, freemasonry, illusions of the matrix, Babylon etc.

              To know your enemy is the usual pathetic excuse or catch-phase while being immersed in the dark twisted culture. To save all the meaningless copy and paste of the Scriptures that you do, – would not time be better spent immersed in God’s Word? Luke 13:27 “But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.”

              Better to intimately know your Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, and gird thyself with sound doctrine.

      • “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
        Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” – Matthew 13:40-42

        That’s is one of the answers that pretribers refuse to accept for the question: “who will inhabitate the earth during the millenium if the rapture is post-trib”.

        • MRH

          @ Marc: The only ones in the millennium will be the resurrected saints, as all the sinners are killed prior 😉

          Rev 19:21 KJV – And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

          Rev 20:5 KJV – But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

          P.S. Sinners can’t occupy the millennium, as they will be dead during it. The dead are NOT alive they are dead!

    • John

      Here is some Bible backed truths. http://wonderfulgrace.org/PreTribRapture.html

      • MRH

        Fantasy, as with all end time theories. Only God know the truth unto mysteries 😉

    • laura

      The mark of the beast is mandated when GREAT tribulation begins. That’s the latter 3-1/2 years.

      Tribulation… the 7 year period… has already begun. We’re in the first 3-1/2 years right now… and there was no pre-trib rapture.

      There’s an escape from tribulation at mid-trib… when GREAT trib begins when the prepared saints disappear, etc.

      And are protected right now.

      • MRH

        @ laura: Deception, as 3rd Temple not built. But such will prevail soon. After 6th trumpet war prevails 😉

      • You are 100% incorrect. The very first sign of the Tribulation, is the appearing of the 4 Horsemen. Since your website clearly states that the Tribulation started on 9/30/2015, please show us proof of the 4 horsemen from Revelation 6. Thanks!

      • TheGreatTroy

        laura,

        Are you going to respond to Bro. Grider ? The rest of us want to know also.

    • jb

      I totally agree with ukulelemike, some of you need to understand thessalonians 2 and realize that we will all be here during the tribulation.

      Do you think God will let anyone into heaven that easy? Cmon! This is the ultimate test and I’m glad to be around for it!

      • MRH

        @ jb: Easy or hard conversion depends on faith 😉 Are you of the faith or otherwise (false)? Consider scripture 😀

        1Jo 5:1, 4-5, 10, 12-13, 20 KJV – Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. … For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? … He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. … He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. … And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

      • Jimmy

        @jb

        “Do you think God will let anyone into Heaven that easy?”

        THEN WHY DID HE DIE?!?

        • “For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.” 1 Cor 6:20

          “Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
          And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
          I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
          But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” 1 Cor 9:24-27

      • Jim Black

        Right on, JB

        The Apostles were all “post tribbers”

        The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles” (50-100 AD)

        Chap. 16:4-6

        16:4 When lawlessness increases, they will hate and persecute and betray one another, and then the world-deceiver will appear claiming to be the Son of God, and he will do signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands, and he will do iniquitous things that have not been seen since the beginning of the world.

        16:5 Then humankind will enter into the fire of trial, and many will be made to stumble and many will perish; but those who endure in their faith will be saved from under the curse itself.

        16:6 And then the signs of the truth will appear: the first sign, an opening of the heavens; the second sign, the sounding of the trumpet; and the third sign, the resurrection of the dead

        Sign #1 – Heaven opens (Jesus will be seen (Rev. 6:14-16). He then comes in power and great glory (Rev. 19:11-16, Matt. 24:30)

        Sign #2 – Sound of the trumpet (no doubt the last one – 1 Cor. 15:52, Matt. 24:31)

        Sign #3 – Resurrection of the dead (of course followed immediately by the transformation of those who “are alive and remain.” (1 Thes. 4:17)

        Listen up “pre tribbers:)

    • Rowley

      We can argue about Biblical understanding until we die but more important is are you in “Religious Deception.”
      Bear with me…..
      The Anti messiah is a Roman, in fact he is the Pope – Scriptures tell us so: http://worldtruth.tv/antichrist-revealed-the-scriptures-expose-the-man-in-sheeps-clothing/

      In 2 Thess 2:7-12 it tells us: “7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
      8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

      In Matt 24:4-5 it tells us: “And Messiah answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Messiah; and shall deceive many.”
      24:11: “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”

      So what is this deception……. is it Christianity? Before you jump off your horse, consider the following……..
      Firstly, in Rev 5:5 it tells us the Messiah is a Hebrew of the tribe of Judah. His name is Yahushua. He is not Greek.
      Paul did not start the Christian church, Paul was a Pharisee who strictly obeyed the commandments of Yahuweh and obeyed the Feats of Yahuweh (Acts 22:3; 6). Paul was called a “Nazarite or of the Way”(Acts 24:5; 22), never a Christian.
      Christianity started with the Hellenised Jews who hated the Hebrews and the Torah. Then Constantine in 321-25AD legalised the new religion of Christianity and changed the Hebrew names and Hebrew Feasts for pagan feasts and names.
      The woman in Revelation 17 is clearly the Roman Catholic Church, and you know that if you’ve done any extensive studying on your own.
      “St.” Augustine, in the second century, said: “Rome is the second Babylon.”

      Mark 7:6-13: “And in vain do they worship Me teaching as teachings the commands of men. Forsaking the commands of Elohim you hold fast the traditions of men. And He said to them `Well do you set aside the command of Elohim, in order to guard your tradition…nullifying the Word of Elohim through your tradition which you have handed down.’ ”

      Yahweh, throughout Scripture, we find Him having only “One People” that have been “called out” from among all the pagan nations that surrounds them, and calling them Israel!
      Therefore we must assume that the name christian is dogmatic and therefore is inconsistent with the whole of Hebrew Scriptures relating to a people that have been called out and set apart unto their King and Master, Yahweh.
      There are two veils from among the eyes of both His people. The veil of denial from one people called Jews, and the veil of deception from the other people, called Gentiles.
      For Jews, can finally release from their eyes the veil of Denial that once separated them from their Messiah, Yahusha.
      The other veil that can be lifted today from among the other people, grafted in Gentiles, who’s veil has been a veil of deception.
      So who are the two Messiah’s……………. and which One should we worship………….

      As the Jews are receiving their Messiah they call Him Yahushua and accept His teachings and Torah to still be in effect.
      While on the other hand Gentiles accept Jesus, who they claim did away with his father’s teachings and Torah by nailing them to the cross.
      Two Messiah’s being taught through one book. One with a Hebrew name of Yahushua who teaches lawfulness and the other having a Greek name Jesus teaching lawlessness.
      Christianity replaced His True Name YHVH to Lord, which means Baal. They stripped away from the Hebrew Bibles the Only True Name the Father Named His Son in Hebrew, from Yahushua, to a Greek name, Jesus.
      They stripped away and replaced every Feast they are commanded to celebrate unto Yahweh with Pagan holidays, replacing them with easter and christmas.
      Christianity has stripped away and replaced His law, called the Torah, (Their Father’s instructions), and replaced them with their form of dispensational grace, having a God they claim that does not change, that somehow, did.
      Christianity has stripped away EVERYTHING! Not only Hebraic , but everything Yahweh had commanded in His Word for His People to do, and to follow, and by doing so, they had gone another way.
      Christianity created the names “Old Testament” and “New Testament” thus implying “separation.”
      Knowing Scripture and the story of Cain and Abel, they have actually gone in the Way Of Cain, away from Yahweh, not toward Him, by bringing some other type of religious organizational service to Him, as it is nowhere found in the Scriptures telling them to do such things unto Him; but in Fact, and in Truth, being stripped of everything they are Commanded to do.
      His Scriptures tell us it was only Israel, and not christians that DID what was commanded for them to do.
      Therefore Yahweh set them apart, a people, His People who follow His Ways and His Ways only. And in that, it sets them apart!
      If we are Not following Yahweh’s Ways; His Ways, we cannot but call ourselves pagans!
      For we then are not Set-Apart and Called Out, but joined unto them, in “their” Ways!

      It is the working of Satan to ultimately destroy Yahweh’s True People He came to save, both Grafted In Gentiles and Jews, who Yahweh calls Israel!
      We are to be a peculiar people that has been Called Out. A Set-Apart People, and if we are not; yet claim Him as our Father and call ourselves by a different name other than what He calls us according to His Word, Israel, then we are NOT His People, but separated from ISRAEL being called christians and led astray into paganism.
      Therefore, Christianity is nothing but a poisonous deceptive false gospel!
      It is “another gospel,” a gospel bringing with it a false messiah having a Greek name, jesus.
      Yahushua had warned us about this, that there would come another in his own name, that Satan would use to deceive not only the Gentiles, but now in its fullness. Christianity is reaching the Jews, the True Apple of His Eye.
      John 5:43 “I (Yahusha) am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another (jesus) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.”

      Christianity’s jesus is the catholic brain child fed to the Protestants in helping them destroy the Gentiles first, as the Gentile world has gladly accepted him, then in the end of days going after Israel, the Apple of His Eye!
      Christianity teaches that their jesus abolished his father’s laws after his death, burial and resurrection. This is the stripping away of the very Words given to His People, the fabric of which is the foundation given to us by our Father Yahweh who Himself, follows them.
      If Christianity’s jesus had done away with Our Father’s Commandments as they so teach, then why is it found in the book of Revelation, the book referring to the future after his death, there are those found doing them and are not cursed, but called Blessed, Remnant, Saints, and have right to the tree of life? How can this be if the law was done away with?
      Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMNANT of her seed, which KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahusha Ha’Mashiach.
      Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF YAHWEH, and the faith of Yahusha.
      Revelation 22:14 BLESSED are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
      We must understand that TRUTH is the most important part of our Messiah’s teachings, for without His truths we are left to Satan’s deceptions passed from generation to generation.

      If you really love jesus, and you come to find in Scripture where Christianity has blotted out His True Name and hidden it from you, you must ask yourself why?
      So, one last question remains. Do you follow after the True Name and what Scriptures teach about Him, or follow the name they replaced as jesus, and follow after him, what they teach about him?
      Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
      Study the Scriptures yourself with the help of the Spirit Ruach whom you ask in deep faith for guidance. Stop listening to false preachers.

      There is no unconditional love in the Scriptures!
      Messiah made this also very plain in John 14:21, 23-24.
      Yahuweh is Light. He will not coddle someone who gravitates to, and feels comfortable in, the world, the flesh, and the real of the Devil! He loves you! But, He will not condone what is not Him!
      Either He is Master, Ruler, King, Elyon, and Shaddai of your life, or you are. (I Kings 18:21)
      With Him it’s all or nothing!
      He won’t stay if He is not wanted, needed, and absolute ruler of your life!
      He will not compete with your “fleshly” self!

      • @ Rowley !

        Romans 1:1-5 (KJV)
        1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated
        unto the gospel of God,
        2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
        3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the
        seed of David according to the flesh;
        4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit
        of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
        5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to
        the faith among all nations, for his name:

        Rowley, how could you allow yourself to be so deceived ??
        Jesus Christ is 100 % the Saviour, Paul is 100% the apostle
        to the Gentile nations.

        Acts 4:12 (KJV)
        12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other
        name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

        Excellent article Jimmy, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t
        make him drink ! …Alas !

        • Kiwiwatcher

          Amen Mike au. Tough audience for Jimmy but he’s done very well, fighting the good fight.

          • Yes Kiwi, Jimmy has done an excellent job fighting the good fight, the problem
            is people are gleaning their doctrine from Matthew all the way to revelation, 3
            different dispensation’s ? The Kingdom of God, the age of grace and the time
            of Jacobs trouble, 2 Tim 2:15 is their problem. With the exception of a certain
            Pharisee/ come what may, above, and our resident Jew hater Genesis777.
            The only one that knows and follows their doctrine is them.

            • Kiwiwatcher

              Could not agree more Mike au, but it is quite apparent that a huge number of people have to line-up for the chopping block during the last seven years.
              For several years now, my general feeling has been that the Rapture will involve only a few in number (compared to world pop.) and only include those who hold dear to sound doctrine. Enoch was translated by Faith alone, and so will the True Church. Things go quite pear-shaped once a diversion is taken from the God’s laid out path.

              FOR ME, Corinthians 15:52 – it will definitely be the Last Trump. Another seven trumpets blown for the Jewish Nation set “to endure” will not reach my ears. There simply is no reason for me to hear trumpets heralding doom and calamity on earth. I also suspect that many people ‘having been sent a strong delusion’ will accept the antichrist as their messiah, simply because they did not seek the Truth and his deception will be immense, – it is more critical than most people think.

              A bizarre point often raised is that “True Christians” would fall by the way-side by losing hope if the tribulation/Jacobs Trouble started while still on earth.” That erroneous statement is classic – and shows that the person using it – is totally unaware of the strength and power of the Holy Spirit. Any physical tribulation on earth is ‘peanuts’ when compared to a Spiritual Tribulation, but like Enoch, as Jesus mentioned in Matthew regarding Noah – I shall not be here.

              I am grateful for the NTEB team, brother G and Jimmy as they have cleared up some matters for me over the last while and made reading my Bible so much easier and loads of fun. Cant stop. Anyway…will see you one day brother Mike au.

        • Rowley

          Mike, maybe you did not understand the article.
          Try reading again, this time ask the Spirit Ruah to open your mind and take the “blinds” off your eyes and read slowly.
          The article explains how you can “be set apart to Yahuweh.”

          The article did not state Paul did not preach to the gentiles. Study Romans 11 for gentiles can be “grafted into Israel.”
          Who has given Israel a stupor? And ears that cannot hear? That also applies also to the Christians (2 Thess 2:10-11).

          You state, “Paul preached jesus to the gentiles.”
          If “J” as in your jesus was not in the English language 450 years ago, how could Paul preach jesus?
          Before your jesus was Iesous and before this name was the pagan god Zeus.

          Another deception of christianity is: “say the sinners prayer and you are saved,” deception again!
          While the Messiah told us in Jn 3:3, “you have to be reborn (spiritly).”
          Without a deep true repentance and the Spirit Ruah coming into your heart and changing you, so that you hate sin, then you are not saved, only the Spirit can change you into the likeness of the Messiah.

          Who gets drawn to the Messiah? John 6:39; 40; 44 and 45 tells us “we are drawn to the Messiah by the Father.”

          Now when the Pope sits in East Jerusalem and makes law that everyone worship only on sun-day, which is the pagan sun god, guess who is already doing this – the christians – it is an abomination to Yahuweh.

          Start doing some research and study of the Scriptures and also on the web. Check the names Yahushua, “Foundation of deception,” etc.
          We are called to preach the Gospel, and once saved we are called to read and study the Scriptures.

          Blessed are the discerners.

          • ” The article explains how you can “be set apart to Yahuweh.”

            Quotes from your article,

            “One with a Hebrew name of Yahushua who teaches lawfulness and
            the other having a Greek name Jesus teaching lawlessness.”

            ” Therefore, Christianity is nothing but a poisonous deceptive false
            gospel! ”

            NO ! The article is a false blasphemous assassination of the name of
            JESUS and his Christian Church ! Which Paul, appointed by JESUS,
            was to bring Christianity to the Gentiles.

            1 Corinthians 1:1-2 (KJV)
            1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God,
            and Sosthenes our brother,
            2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified
            in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon
            the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their’s and our’s:

            You may want to call upon the name of JESUS CHRIST ! Before you
            meet him, otherwise you will have to explain those articles you write
            about him – “JESUS and his CHURCH “!

            • Rowley

              Mike,

              simple fact: “J” was not in the English language 450 years ago.
              One can not debate christians because they believe your Mary (Miriam) called her son jesus and the ten commandments were nailed to the cross.
              The Father Named His only begotten Son Yahushua, meaning (YaHuah’s Salvation in their mother tongue Hebrew)after Himself….and this be the ONLY Name that leads to redemption,… But people do not seem to care at all their minds hard and made up from emotion.
              Check Wikipedia for the history of christianity. Jesus comes from a Greek god from the time of Constantine.

            • Rowley

              Mike,

              Regarding “set apart” here are the Scriptures you can study:
              “Without set-apartness, no man shall see Yahuweh” (Hebrews 12:14).
              I Peter 1:16; Leviticus 11:44-45, 19:1; 20:7-8, 24-26: “Be set-apart as I am set-apart”.

              Regarding His name, the Messiah is a Hebrew of the tribe of Judah (Rev 5:5).
              Check Matt 1 for Joseph’s Hebrew linage – can you see any Greek connection?
              Check Mary’s Hebrew linage in Luke 3:21-38 – can you find any Greek connection?
              In the time of the Messiah the Hebrews hated the Greeks.

              Other Scripture for you to study………..
              Isaiah 24 – the Transgression of Desolation, humanities rebellion.
              Because we have committed the Transgression of Desolation, Yahuweh has given us over to believe a lie; the Babylonian Religion repackaged for us today by Constantine called Christianity.
              A false religion carefully put in place over time blending paganism into the Truth (deluding from the Truth i.e. Grand Delusion) so that it “seems” or is “believed” to be based on the Word of Yahuweh.
              When in fact, it is an abomination to everything holy to Yahuweh and has been since The Tower of Babel until now.
              It is this false religion that causes us to “transgress” the ordained times, Sabbaths, and law of Yahuweh, that per Isaiah 24:1-6, which leads to our own spiritual and physical destruction but also that of the surface of the Earth… The Great Tribulation.
              Isa 24:5 For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant.
              Transgressed the Torah, changed the Holy Feasts to Christopagan Holidays, and broken the Everlasting Covenant of the Sabbath changing it to the pagan day of worship … Sunday
              Isa 24:6 Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left.
              The Bible from cover to cover is a testimony to Yahuweh’s Holy Instructions. “Torah” in Hebrew means “Instructions in Righteousness.”
              Keeping The Law is how we will be declared righteous before Yahuweh as The Torah is that instruction. .
              It is in keeping The Law that the process of sanctification is accomplished as we are set apart for Yahuweh as a prized possession through our obedience.
              Sin is breaking The Law and Grace is forgiveness in light of our inability to keep The Law fully.
              The love of Yahuweh is made complete in those who obey The Law.
              Those who are zealous for good works of The Law are purified by The Law: Romans 2:13
              Jeremiah 31:31-34: “See the days are coming’, declares Yahuweh,when I shall make a renewed covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah…For this is the Covenant that I shall make with the House of Israel after those days’, declares Yahuewh: `I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people’”.
              Yahushua let us know in John 14:15, and 21, and 23-24, and 15:10 and I John 5:2-3, and in many other passages that loving Him meant to keep His Commandments.

              Most of my life was in the Christian/catholic church until the Spirit Ruach opened my mind to the “deception of pagan worship in Christianity.

              Blessed are the discerners.

            • @ Rowley !

              This is the thing Rowley ! I don’t read or speak Hebrew or
              Greek, I read and write English ! And study from my English
              bible, KJV !
              The name of JESUS may translate different in earlier texts,
              or foreign language but it is the same JESUS, as described
              in John 1:1-5, John 1:14, John 1:29, and his name translated
              in modern English is JESUS !

              Romans 1:16 (KJV)
              16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power
              of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first,
              and also to the Greek.

              @ Rowley – sound like someone you know ??

              Those who teach that the name Jesus means “Hail, Zeus” usually
              start with the name of God, YAH (see Isaiah 26:4, NET). From that
              name of God, they take the Messiah’s name to be YAHSHUA, which
              they say means “YAH Is Salvation.” They contend that is the name
              used by the apostles and by the Messiah Himself; however, after
              the apostles were dead and gone, the Roman Church took over
              Christianity. In order to make their brand of religion more palatable
              to the pagans, the Roman leaders changed the name of the Messiah
              into a Greek/Latin hybrid, Iésous, which (supposedly) means “Hail, Zeus.”
              Since Zeus (or Jupiter) was the chief god in the Greco-Roman pantheon,
              the pagans had little trouble accepting this new demigod. By changing
              the Savior’s name, Christianity had been effectively stripped of its Hebrew
              roots, and the melding with paganism was a success. The Greeks’ saviour
              could still be Zeus. In time, the word Iésous was further corrupted into Jesus
              in English.

              As “proof” for their conspiracy theory that Jesus means “Hail, Zeus,”
              advocates point to the fact that the second syllable of Jesus (-sus) sounds
              similar to the name of the chief Greek god. Especially when Jesus is
              pronounced in Spanish, it becomes “evident” that people are “actually”
              saying “Hey, Zeus.” Added to these “proofs” is the fact that ancient
              sculptures of Zeus show him with a beard—just like modern-day pictures
              of Jesus!

              What can we say to such far-fetched nonsense? First, not everyone who
              has a beard is trying to take the place of Jesus. Second, just because a
              certain word or word part sounds like another word is no proof of comm-
              onality basing theories of word origin on pronunciation is preposterous.

              Humorous sounds exactly like humerus, but there’s nothing particularly
              funny about the bone that goes from the shoulder to the elbow. Third,
              the Messiah’s Hebrew name is Yeshua, not Yahshua—the latter being a
              fabrication in order to make the name sound more like YAH.

              Fourth, the Hebrew name Yeshua translates into Greek as Iésous. This is
              the name that the angel Gabriel commanded Joseph to name Mary’s child:
              “You are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from
              their sins” (Matthew 1:21). The name Jesus is a simply a Greek form of
              Joshua, a common name among Jews. The same verse also alludes to the
              meaning of the name: the Lord was to be named Jesus because “he will
              save his people from their sins.” The name Jesus means “The Lord Saves”
              or “The Lord Is Salvation.” Whether you spell it Jesus or Jesu or Joshua or
              Yeshua, the meaning stays the same, and it has nothing whatsoever to do
              with Zeus.

              source -got questions

              1 Timothy 1:3-4 (KJV)
              3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia,
              that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
              4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister
              questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

              Why don’t you just try reading the bible instead of looking for conspiracy
              theories ?? And thank God we have a saviour,….JESUS CHRIST !

            • Rowley

              Mike,

              base your argument on facts and not conjecture.
              You debase your argument when you bring in conspiracy theories while your own arguments are based on the same.
              English Hebrew Bibles are available on line.
              If your name is Mike in Australia, it will be Mike in Greece also.
              Check a Hebrew site for the correct name, many are in English.
              If by your own arrogance you want to call the Messiah by a Greek name after knowing the truth then it would appear you have a hard heart.
              Do have you have a relationship with the Spirit Ruach?

              Blessed are the discerners.

            • Ukulelemike

              So, Rowley, then by your logic, the translators of the KJV just needed to get their hearts right, that’s what you’re saying? If using the Greek or Latinized or Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English version of the Lord’s name indicates someone with no discernment and a poor spirit toward God, then such men as Wiklyff, who was burned atop of his Bible translations, and Tyndale, and others who gave us our KJV, were men who just needed to get their hearts right. I do believe God knows His name in any language, be it Jesus, Joshua or Y’shua, be it YHWH, Yahweh, or Jehovah.

      • Ukulelemike

        Ah I see now-Hebrew Roots heresy. So much error intermixed with truth. I don’t even have time to deal with them all.

        • @ Rowley

          Your ego is such, that if someone does not believe your lies, then
          you believe them to be ” arrogant ” ! You have twisted the scriptures
          to fit your conspiracy theories, doctrines and have blatantly lied !

          You claim that Jesus taught lawlessness, that’s a lie !

          Romans 6:14-18 (KJV)
          14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,
          but under grace.
          15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under
          grace? God forbid.
          16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his
          servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of
          obedience unto righteousness?
          17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have
          obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
          18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

          Rowley that is servants of righteousness not lawlessness !

          Rowley you claim,
          “Christianity’s jesus is the catholic brain child fed to the Protestants in
          helping them destroy the Gentiles first,” this is another lie Rowley !

          Acts 11:26 (KJV)
          26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch.
          And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves
          with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were
          called Christians first in Antioch.

          As you have previously stated
          “Then Constantine in 321-25AD legalised the new religion of Christianity ”

          Now Rowley isn’t Acts 11:26 at least 250 years before Catholicism ?
          Christians being followers of Jesus Christ right ? At least 250 years BEFORE
          Catholicism existed ! So that would be the CHRISTIAN CHURCH followers of
          JESUS CHRIST AT ANTIOCH ! Nothing to do with Catholicism or Constantine,
          BUT everything to do with JESUS CHRIST !

          You tell lies about JESUS and his CHURCH to fit your deceptive doctrine !

          2 John 9-11 (KJV)
          9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
          hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
          the Father and the Son.
          10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him
          not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
          11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

          John 8:24-25 (KJV)
          24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe
          not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
          25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them,
          Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

          Rowley turn to Jesus Christ before it’s too late !

          • Rowley

            Mike,

            the point of my statement is that the original names were changed to Greek god names by Constantine in 321AD. Simple, truthful fact.
            Ignorance by believers of this fact has been the grace of Yahuweh.
            Almost everything about the catholic religion is paganism and false.
            The Pope worships Lucifer, he is head of the Jesuits, he is the coming anti messiah. That is not conspiracy.
            The christian church has never divorced itself from the Roman church, in fact many christian churches are coming back under the Roman catholic church.
            There are over 30 000 “christian faiths” because each has their own beliefs and rules.
            Christianity is religion, the Messiah hated religion.
            You are basing your argument on the KJV Bible. Before King James, “J” was not in the English language, so yes, he also had the Bible altered but the basic truth is there in the KJV.
            Even Satanists pray to your jesus.
            Why has most governments, especially the Western world banned the use of the name Yuhuweh?
            Most Western leaders are either Illuminati or Masons, they hate Bible believers.
            If you worship on a Sun-day, or christmas or easter you are in pagan worship, and abomination to Yahuweh.

            Blessed are the discerners.

          • Rowley

            Mike,

            You say Paul preached Jesus but you also agree that “J” was not in the English language 450 years ago.
            So how could Paul, a Pharisee, who obeyed and kept the Torah preach Jesus?
            You agree that before Jesus was Iesous, and you stated this came from Yeshua. Are you implying that Paul preached Yeshua?
            I am stating that Paul preached the Messiah Yahushua, the Son Of Elohim, a Hebrew of the tribe of Judah (Rev 5:5).
            In your view, when the Messiah returns to Jerusalem He will tell the Jews/Hebrews His name is “Jesus?”
            The Jews/Hebrews will reject him, they are looking for a Hebrew Messiah by the name of Yahushua.
            “Yeshua” means “salvation”.
            His correct Name of Yahushua means: Yahuweh Saves!
            Substitute the pagan god names for Hebrew names and your understanding of Scripture will change.
            Elohim is the God of the Bible. Yahuweh (plural) for Lord, lord in Hebrew means Baal, and Yahushua for Jesus.
            His Torah is practical advice.
            We are commanded to celebrate Messiah’s death and resurrection, the coming of the Ruach ha Kodesh, and second coming of Messiah, and that is all He told us to celebrate.
            These events are wrapped up in the celebration of the seven Feasts (Leviticus 23), which give us the outline of the plan of salvation.
            The word for “Feast” is the Hebrew word “mo’edim,” meaning “an exact-to-the-second appointment.”

            The early believers never called themselves “Christians.”
            They were known as a “sect of Judaism,” called “the followers of the Way,” or the “sect of the Nazarene.” (See Acts 24:5, 14)
            Early believers, who met in homes, or in fields, and at the synagogue on Shabbat, received Messiah Yahushua as THE Messiah of Israel by faith, but also kept the Torah. They went to synagogue on Shabbat to hear the Torah read. The Scriptural concept of “hearing” is obedience to what you hear.

            Yahuweh did not start Judaism, with its traditions and bondages—man did that after the Babylonian captivity.
            Yahushua did not start Christianity–the Greeks and Romans did.

            Some history of Christianity:
            The Hellenised Jews were the first Christians, these were the ones who tried to kill Paul.
            Constantine legalised Chrsitianity in 325AD.
            From the days of Constantine Christianity/Romanism has slaughtered the Jews, Elohim’s chosen people, why?
            Holocausts against the Jews including the “crusades and the inquisition” occurred regularly ever since the reigns of the Greeks and Romans–especially from the inception of the Roman Catholic Church.
            We know that the Holocaust under Hitler was planned and executed by the Jesuits, the Illuminati (who are also part of the Jesuits) and the Free Masons of Britain.
            Greek culture, upon which Western culture is based, was saturated with ways to please the flesh/the body and the senses, satiating the mind with beauty and pleasantness of all types, including all forms of sexually.
            Greek culture set the will of man free to lavish himself in whatever he lusted after.
            Constantine, to unite His Empire, in 325 CE, took all the gods of the Greco/Roman pantheon, and reduced them to one supreme God that they could all worship – a sun god that fit into the personalities of all the other gods–“another Jesus.”
            Thus, modern Christianity presents pretty much a smorgasbord of “pick and choose,” whatever you want to add to the basic beliefs of your chosen group.
            The only reason why people still can be saved calling upon the name of “Jesus” is because the Holy Spirit interprets the deep groaning of our hearts (Romans 8:26-27) and he interprets the incorrect name Jesus as Yahushua before the throne of Yahuweh for us.

            Let us look at the modern Christian church: They preach “prosperity; once saved, always saved, self; replacement theology; now accepting same sex marriage; etc, etc.”
            Many churches have become large centers of “seeker friendly” where the Spirit has been rejected and entertainment is the focus.
            Many preachers live lavish life styles, in other words just a money-making racket.
            Before WW II Hitler asked the world who wants the Jews, no one country wanted them. One ship full of Jews toured the world and was rejected by
            The world – why? The same is happening now, the world is rejecting Israel including most of main stream Christianity, why?
            Today the Vatican sides with the Palestinians who are killing Jews in Israel. Their excuse is that the Jews killed “Christ,” and therefore they are destined to wander over the earth with no permanent home.
            They are backing the U.N. in their attempts to give away Yahuweh’s land to His enemies.

            I have read the KJV for over 40 years. I came out of the Catholic church early, but then found the main stream Christian churches did not preach to the Word. I was a church-hopper, the reason, unbiblical preaching. If one disagreed with the “untouchable” preacher, you were out!
            Some faiths one had to pass exams to be a member? The Spirit showed me the truth of Christianity, I repented of Christianity and now abide by the Bible. You want me to recant of my beliefs and return to Christianity – Yahuweh would blot me out of His Book!

            Bless the Bible discerners

            • @ Rowley

              We use the name Jesus, an Anglicized transliteration of the Greek,
              because Greek is the language that Matthew and Mark and Luke
              and John wrote their Gospels in and because English is the
              language we speak. The best translation of Iésous into modern
              English is “Jesus.”

              Your smoke and mirrors side show about the letter “J” again !
              Maybe you you could try looking for the name Iésous which
              translates – Jesus.

              Your like a broken record, but I suppose this is what happens to
              you when you join a cult.

              Yeshua” Or “Yahshua”?

              The Messiah’s Hebrew Name: “Yeshua” Or “Yahshua”? – YashaNet
              http://www.yashanet.com › library › yeshua_or…

    • David Flynn

      WOW-Ilove Jesus and do not care when the rapture comes because its theFathers will. I will go through what comes.Jesus suffered greatly for me.My ears will hear the rightly divided trump and i’ll know its for me. The key for me in all of this is the sound of the right trump.What a wonderful sound it will be!!!!!!! Trust in faith and let GOD be our GOD. p.s.love ya!

    • Char

      Marc, FYI – In the 1000 Year Millenium when Jesus is on His throne, YES, He will revert back to the law and the sacrifices and it will be mainly Jews during that time.

      • That’s ridiculous! Why did Jesus die, if people still need law and sacrifice?

        “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrew 9:26

    • Char

      Geoffrey, you are correct in telling Laura she is incorrect, besides the 4 horsemen, the A.C. will sign the peace treaty with Israel and hen the tribulation begins. People have no idea how bad it will actually be. How in the world Irwin Baxter can say we are in the tribulation now is beyond me. He needs to go back to his Bible and so do these other post-tribbers.

      • MRH

        @ Char: The tribulation can’t be yet as the third temple is not even built. Also the tribulation doesn’t begin until the temple abomination event prevails. And although the world is going insane, it’s not the first time. It’s just that we tend to forget the past. In fact even 911 is now but a faded memory. So what lies ahead? Nobody really knows, but for certain the Middle East is a pot ready to explode? And will 2016 signal the end of Obama’s reign of terror? :O

    • Char

      Geoffrey, are you saying that the temple must be completely built BEFORE the tribulation, but not BEFORE the rapture? We don’t know how much time will lapse between the rapture and the tribulation, right? It’s hard to keep it all in chronological order, but all I know is that I’m longing for His appearing BEFORE the tribulation and I absolutely believe it will be BEFORE the tribulation. There’s so much prophesy in the Word to prove it, but like I said before, people just won’t bend on it, so we’ll just have to let them be surprised.

      • MRH

        @ Char: You need to study scripture better 💡 NO temple equals NO tribulation. Consider below related scripture 😉

        Dan 7:23-25 KJV – Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

        Dan 8:23-24 KJV – And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

        Dan 9:27 KJV – And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

        Dan 11:31-33 KJV – And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

        Dan 12:11 KJV – And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

        Mat 24:15-16, 21 KJV – When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: … For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

        Rev 13:4-8 KJV – And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

        P.S. The tribulation theories are all wrong I’m afraid. Just like many other end time theories, it’s all guessing games 🙁

    • Char

      MRH, from what I studied, I see that the temple HAS to be built before the middle of the tribulation for the abomination of desolation to come in (The A.C.), which is AFTER the rapture! One thing I do see in these comments of yours is that you DO NOT have a way of speaking to people without speaking down to them as if they are idiots. That’s not a Christian trait, you know. Just sayin’. Thanks for your info.

      • MRH

        @ Char: I only provide scripture or otherwise knowledge. I can’t force people to believe my offers 😉

        As for the temple and abomination aspect, the rapture occurs at the end, as scripture declares 😉

        P.S. The resurrection occurs after tribulation, and before the end of the world. We are safe 🙂

        Tip: There is no tribulation until the abomination. Rather the first part is global peace 😀

      • Jim Black

        Greetings Char,

        From their writings, it is clear the Apostles placed the rapture at the end of the tribulation.

        The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles” (50-100 AD) – aka The Didache

        Chap. 16:4-6

        16:4 When lawlessness increases, they will hate and persecute and betray one another, and then the world-deceiver will appear claiming to be the Son of God, and he will do signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands, and he will do iniquitous things that have not been seen since the beginning of the world.

        16:5 Then humankind will enter into the fire of trial, and many will be made to stumble and many will perish; but those who endure in their faith will be saved from under the curse itself.

        16:6 And then the signs of the truth will appear: the first sign, an opening of the heavens; the second sign, the sounding of the trumpet; and the third sign, the resurrection of the dead

        Sign #1 – Heaven opens (Jesus will be seen (Rev. 6:14-16). He then comes in power and great glory (Rev. 19:11-16, Matt. 24:30)

        Sign #2 – Sound of the trumpet (no doubt the last one – 1 Cor. 15:52, Matt. 24:31)

        Sign #3 – Resurrection of the dead (followed immediately by the transformation of those who “are alive and remain.” (1 Thes. 4:17)

        The Greek for “remain” is “perileipomai” and means “left over, survive.” What else could this survival be except the tribulation?

        Lord bless

        • ATTENTION: NTEB is a site for discussing end times and the Bible. Spurious books like Enoch, The Apocrypha, The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, The Didache, and all others of this stripe are NOT to be debated on the same level as the King James Bible. They have NO authority of any kind, none. This is a trick that people use to cloud the debate and confuse people. Our discussions begin and end with the King James 1611 Bible.

          • Sorry, I myself read the French Louis Segond version of the Bible, as well as other non English languages versions, but I copy and paste KJV version verses here. I did not knew that you only accept the 1611 version. I will post the 1611 version from now.

        • MRH

          @ Jim Black: The resurrection occurs at Christ’s return which occurs before the rapture which occurs at the end of the world and glorious appearance and gathering event in heaven which occurs before the millennium 😉

          In our resurrected form we saints will be judging the world and the fallen angels which rule it in the end.

          1Co 6:2-3 KJV – Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

          The ‘mystery of God’ is the church and resurrection of the saints 🙂

          1Co 2:7-8 KJV – But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

          1Co 15:51-53 KJV – Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

          Rev 10:7 KJV – But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

          Rev 11:15 KJV – And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

          The sounding of the ‘seventh angel’ signals the beginning of the; end of the world, the harvest, and day of the lord 😉

          P.S. After the first resurrection phase begins, death is no more for the resurrected saints. But there will be many martyrs during the end. Those alive now whom scoff today will cry hard tomorrow. But truthfully, only a handful of saints will escape the first death. The majority in the first resurrection will be the risen dead.. billions. And the same goes for sinners, only a small portion will be alive during the end.. billions 😉

    • John hillis

      Revelation 3:10 Jesus tells us we are not appointed to wrath. Pretty simple.

      • MRH

        @ John hillis: Wrath is the end of mans rule and beginning of Gods kingdoms 😉

        Rev 11:15, 18 KJV – And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. … And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

      • Kiwiwatcher

        On the button John

      • “Revelation 3:10 Jesus tells us we are not appointed to wrath.”

        That is correct, but people still confuse the wrath of God with persecutions form the antichrist. These are two different things. It’s true that it is written in the letters to the 7 churches that we are not appointed to wrath, BUT it is also written in these same letters that those who commit fornication will be cast “into GREAT TRIBULATION, except they repent of their deeds.” (Rev 2:22) while those who have kept the word ofGod’s patience will be KEPT (NOT raptured to heaven) from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10) while walking with Jesus (on earth) “in white (in their new resurrected body): for they are worthy” (Rev. 3:4)

    • Char

      MRH, I disagree with you, as do many PRE-TRIBBERS, but that’s your choice (and also mine). Take care. Hope to see you in the air very soon! God Bless!

      • MRH

        @ Char: Of course you disagree, but nor can you prove things. None can, as scripture doesn’t explain all mystery yet 🙁

        P.S. If end time knowledge was crystal clear, then there would be no division in the church.. i.e. denominations 😉

        1Co 13:8-12 KJV – Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

        Eph 4:7-8, 11-13 KJV – But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. … And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    • Heather

      Ukulelemike

      2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 (KJV

      7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
      8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

      2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV)
      10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
      11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
      12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

      • Ukulelemike

        Okay, your point?

    • Heather

      Sorry posted twice in error.

    • ballistic

      Jimmy
      its time abandon the modern pre-trib Darbyite theory. Pretrib= easy believism, seeker friendly, wishful thinking, entitlement mentality. The natural, normal, common sense, biblical, historical belief of the church for 2000 years is that we must endure til the end. Jimmy.. please. You are a young man. Many of the greatest minds in church history, gifted men with staggering intellect, understood that we the church must endure til the end. So dont dismiss so readily historic doctrine for recent pop theology. Pre tribulation theory is popular, i grant you that. Me? I certainly dont know the mysteries of God, nor the unfolding revelation of last days. But i lean strongly (95%) toward biblical “endure til the end” theology. Call it post-trib if you like. If pretrib rapture theology should prove accurate.. im more than pleased to be wrong.

      • Lol Darby, is that the best you got? I have never even read ONE single word Darby ever wrote, but don’t need to. Paul and John the apostles tell me all I need to know about the Pretribulation Rapture. Darby is a “straw man” used by people without a rational argument, trying to fool people who don’t read their Bible.

      • “So dont dismiss so readily historic doctrine for recent pop theology. Pre tribulation theory is popular, i grant you that.”

        They have done that with worship music too: pop. guitar. popular… The easy way… no more difficult subjects to learn like harmony, counterpoint, fugue, etc that take years of intense studies. Only scratch a chord on the guitar by placing APPROXIMATELY the fingers between the bars. Gling! it’s magic! It’s no more like violin that you have to practice hard lot of years just to be able to play the notes in pitch! But when you did it, what a beauty of music this was… now only awful noise, with entertainment sermons, watered down gospel for everybody, OSAS, free pretrib rapture ticket to heaven… more people, more entertainment, more income, the devil dances…

        • ballistic

          yes this seeker friendly pre tribulation campaign.. is suprizing to also see on nteb website. i find nteb to be a leader in straighttalk, except suprizingly on this topic. but… i guess soon enough we will all know Gods will on this point, right?

    • Char

      Geoffrey, I don’t know why the Jim Black comment was addressed @Char since it wasn’t from me. I am a died in the wool pre-tribber. I, like you, never read anything written by Darby, only by Paul and John (or any of those other “Didache, etc.)

    • carrierwave

      The Devil’s Favorite Bible Verse, Acts 2:38. A false interpretation and rendering of this verse has led many adrift from GRACE SALVATION, the “FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS.” Jude 3 This passage in Jude 3 means there is only ONE FAITH that was delivered ONCE TO THE SAINTS. Then why are you, Jimmy and Geoffery, teaching that the SAINTS in Acts 2:38 were preaching ANOTHER FAITH?, the FAITH that saved Peter, and 3000 at the Feast of Pentecost, the lame man in Acts 3:11 who “leaped and praised God” who was so excited he seized and would not let go of Peter and John and he WASN’T EVEN BAPTIZED!, but YOU SAY that FAITH can’t save US! That is what you said Geoffrey! The “FAITH”, “ONCE DELIVERED” TO PETER, to JUDE, to JOHN can’t save people today. Jude, under the Holy Spirit, calls this “ONCE” delivered FAITH, our “COMMON SALVATION”! Do you know what that phrase “COMMON” SALVATION means?? It literally means “SHARED BY ALL”! This FAITH, that is SHARED, is COMMON TO ALL THE SAINTS– All,except YOU, and Jimmy Randolph. Furthermore this same FAITH, SHARED BY ALL SAINTS, is supposed to be “EARNESTY CONTENDED” FOR! But you say “NO!” ‘It will not save anyone today’. So much for the “COMMOM SALVATION”, right, Geoffrey?

      I want to remind you in each of these sermons Peter preached in Acts 2 and Acts 3, Peter preached Christ! and his DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION! The SAME GOSPEL PAUL PREACHED in 1Corinthians 15:1-4 and Paul even mentions “PETER”, “THE TWELVE”, 500 BRETHREN, AND JAMES and ALL THE APOSTLES, in the same passages concerning HIS GOSPEL! Paul said this is the GOSPEL THAT SAVES! And each sermon Peter preached, people were SAVED and it was BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, ALONE!

      Now let’s look as Acts 2:38 more closely.

      FACT #1: Peter preached a great deal more in Acts 2 than just VERSE 38. You cannot make Acts 2;38 stand ALONE.

      FACT #2: Peter, BEFORE verse 38, already told the hearers at Pentecoast HOW TO BE SAVED in verse 21 quoting from Joel 2, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Then he preached Christ and HIS DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION.

      FACT #3: It was Peter’s words and preaching BEFORE verse 38, that were so convicting that his listeners were “pricked in their heart” in verse 37. So, to use verse 38 out of its context causes a misrepresentation of God’s word. The verse does not stand alone, and, in fact, a totally different meaning is conveyed when one makes it stand alone, which you, Geoffrey, are guilty of doing.

      FACT #4: It is an error to assume that the word “for” must mean “in order to.” That is, being baptized “for” the remission of sins supposedly means to be baptized “in order to get” remission of sins. However, a closer look at the scriptures will reveal that this isn’t the case at all, and if you are assuming this, you are teaching a “WATER GOSPEL”.

      FACT #5: Peter told the Jewish audience to “Repent” (change your minds) Repent of what? Obviously to change their minds of their rejection of Jesus and the murder of their long, hoped for Messiah! In order to reverse this they must BELIEVE Jesus is their Messiah, which involves FAITH IN JESUS. This is what saved 3000 at Pentecost, when they “GLADLY RECEIVED HIS WORD”. Baptism followed FOR “because of” the remission of sins, not “in order to get” remmissin of sins.

      This is the FAITH that was “ONCE” delivered to the SAINTS. It is the Blood Of Jesus that washes us from sin–not baptism. WRONG LIQUID!

      • Well said, Carrierwave. If I can add some modulation, I will say:

        “…and without shedding of blood is no remission.” Heb 9:22b KJV 1611

        “…and the blood of Iesus Christ his Sonne clenseth vs from all sinne.” 1 John 1:7b KJV 1611

        “This is the FAITH that was “ONCE” delivered to the SAINTS. It is the Blood Of Jesus that washes us from sin–not baptism. WRONG LIQUID!”

        One of the reason church people say that water baptism is necessary for salvation is to force people to go to the church, at least for a while, in order to be baptised. They won’t baptise in the river, nor in a swimming pool. They want church attendance, and income. They need people to pay for their grand theatre church building, their private houses, luxury cars and private jets! Remember: “For the loue of money is the root of all euill” 1 Tim 6:10a KJV 1611.

        P.S. I don’t know why Geoffrey says he only accept the KJV 1611 version of th Bible…

    • Robin

      Try this interesting exercise. Google new age teaching on the rapture and you will discover that the new age movement has been warning and teaching for many years that soon millions of people will disappear from the earth. The spirits have been channeling this warning to these poor deceived people to prepare the world to believe this is not the rapture spoken of in the bible. Think about this, many who claim to be christians, false teachers and supposedly pious people, even the pope will remain.many who were not thought of as Christians will go and the news media will be filled with conflicting theories as to what it means. The reasons will range from gaia removing those who were uncooperative the new age to space aliens removing excess population to safety in their spaceships. Some say they must be removed to be enlightened but will be returned or they were unteachable therefore must be removed. It is quite amazing all the different reasons that are given, but the point is the the demons are already whispering the lies to keep people in the dark about the rapture but they certainly are aware it is happening soon.

      • Ukulelemike

        This same kind of idea has been seen in the UFO community for years, that the aliens will remove all those unwilling to accept their coming, unwilling to take the next step in spiritual evolution. Guess who that usually is?

        I suspect why we see it come from so many different directions, is that Satan himself is not sure which will be the easiest explanation, which way to go. We tend to give Satan too much credit in having a plan, though the Lord knows.

      • People think that once the rapture has happened, raptured people won’t be seen again, but this is not what is written in the Bible:

        “And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.” (Luke 17:26)

        Before the flood and before God took Enoch, it is written that Enoch WALKED WITH GOD three hundred years:

        “And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:”
        “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Gen 5:22,24)

        The same thing happens at the rapture:

        “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall WALK WITH ME in white: for they are worthy.” Rev 3:4

        After the dead in Christ are risen and those remaining CHANGED:

        “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Cor 15:51-52)

        After this CHANGE (note: a CHANGE, not yet a disparition to heaven) we will WALK WITH JESUS (still on earth) like Enoch walked with God on earth BEFORE God took him to heaven. In fact, it seems that the “rapture” happens in two steps, and the first part (walking with God on earth after having been changed) probably happens sometimes in the middle of the tribulation (the last past will happen later, probably before the wrath of God, or near the end of the tribulation).

        The Jews that will see it will understand:

        “They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.” Deut 32:21

        “Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.” (Rev. 3:9)

        That has not happened yet, and can only happen at the view of the said “rapture”. NOT a secret event, but an event that will be seen and understood, that will make all people furious:

        “And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.” Mat 24:10

        People accusing each other because they will have been left behind. That will be the worst sadness, depression, hate, and all other negative feelings that people will ever experience.

        There is no way Satan can hide this. He can perhaps perform a counterfeit rapture before, but the true rapture he will not fake.

        • MRH

          “People think that once the rapture has happened, raptured people won’t be seen again, but this is not what is written in the Bible: .. In fact, it seems that the “rapture” happens in two steps, and the first part (walking with God on earth after having been changed) probably happens sometimes in the middle of the tribulation (the last past will happen later, probably before the wrath of God, or near the end of the tribulation)”

          @ Marc: That’s what I’ve been trying in vain to explain. There will be two stages unto the second coming and tribulation. The first stage occurs in the middle of the tribulation, and the last stage at the end of tribulation. Matthew 24:27 is the midpoint, and Matthew 24:30 is the endpoint. The resurrection occurs at the first stage, and the rapture at the last stage. Below is my breakdown of things 🙂

          Mat 24:15 KJV – When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
          [THE END countdown begins]

          Mat 24:21 KJV – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
          [Stage #1 = Tribulation (part 1)]

          Mat 24:27 KJV – For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          [Stage #1 = Subtle Return]

          Mat 24:28 KJV – For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
          [Stage #1 = Resurrection (part 1 – the just)]

          Mat 24:29 KJV – Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
          [Stage #2 = Tribulation (part 2)]

          Mat 24:30 KJV – And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
          [Stage #2 = Dramatic Return]

          Mat 24:31 KJV – And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
          [Stage #2 = Rapture and Gathering event]

          [Stage #3 = Millennium (saints only)]
          [Stage #4 = Resurrection (part 2 – unjust)]
          [Stage #5 = Final judgment – unjust (GWT)]
          [Stage #6 = Paradise (new universe)]

          P.S. Once the resurrection process begins, the world will be in total chaos, proving that living Christians are an integral part of the worlds structure. A concept well detailed in the Left Behind media. The roadways around the globe will be a mess because of multiple accidents. Businesses will collapse due to missing workers and such. Families will be broken up due to vanished elements. Granted these troubles are present already, but only in minor fashion. But when millions or billions suddenly drop out of the blue, these things will be magnified in intensity :O

        • Kiwiwatcher

          Excellent Marc – Can definitely see how Enoch being translated is a type of the True Church being ‘snatched away’ prior to Jacobs Trouble/tribulation as Enoch was removed prior to the flood. True Church being gone from earth fits exactly as Jesus said in Matt 24:37-39 “But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
          And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”……..Jesus never mentions the True Church as expected. It is Gone.

          But I am intrigued with “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall WALK WITH ME in white: for they are worthy.” Rev 3:4

          Could you show me where this verse specifically relates to walking on earth? And why the change from Enoch walking with God, somehow matches “walking with Jesus” – while you have maintained the earthly environment in both examples. If changing who they walk with – why not change the environment too. Hope you can provide the Scriptures in context that show this as I am very interested, as this sounds like new doctrine.

          Previously verse four in context regarding Sardis, was related to a Heavenly environment. For example Rev 3:1 “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.”

          Then note the same stars in a previous chapter describing Heaven, Rev 1:16 “And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.”

          Keen to hear what you find Marc

          • “Could you show me where this verse specifically relates to walking on earth? And why the change from Enoch walking with God, somehow matches “walking with Jesus” – while you have maintained the earthly environment in both examples. If changing who they walk with – why not change the environment too. Hope you can provide the Scriptures in context that show this as I am very interested, as this sounds like new doctrine.”

            “And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
            And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
            And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
            And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:21-24)

            Enoch first lived 65 years then begat Methuselat. Then Enoch walked with God AFTER he begat Methuselat 300 years.

            65 + 300 = 365 years

            as it is written in verse 23 that “all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years”

            Enoch begat Methuselat (on earth, he did not begat in heaven) when 65 years old.
            If “all the days of Enoch were 365”, 365 years cannot be made with 65 years on earth and 300 years in heaven, for if we went to heaven immediately after he begat Methusalat, there is no way we can count up to 365 years.
            Only AFTER having walked with God 300 years, that is after all 365 years have past, did Enoch disappear: “…and he was not for God took him”. Before his disappearance (before God took him) he was still visible, so still on earth.
            Once somebody goes to heaven he goes into eternity and there is nothing left that can be seen and counted.
            It is also interesting to note that the flood came the exact year Methusalat died…

            Now it is written:

            “Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
            Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
            Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” John 14:8-10

            “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30

            So “Enoch walked with God” (Gen 5:22) = “they shall walk with Me [Me = Jesus = God] in white for they are worthy.” (Rev 3:4)

            There is no “changing who they walk with”, for there is only ONE God”:

            “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19).

            There is no change in the environment. if Enoch walked with God on earth, then the walking with Me = Jesus = God in Rev. 3:4 is also on earth. (If we are going to heaven, then it’s a flight, not a walking)

            “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

            Same condition, same kind of transportation, same environment, same Guide.

            • Kiwiwatcher

              Thanks Marc. You have showed that the Rapture does indeed occur prior to the tribulation – prior to the days of Noah.

              Do you believe that “walking with God” is literal? Appears rather naive. The Spiritual interpretation from the Bible concludes that “walking with God” is having an intimate and personal relationship with God as a lifestyle, not strolling about.
              Amos 3:3 “Can two WALK together, except they be agreed?”
              2 Kings 8:27 “He also WALKED in the way of the house of Ahab and did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, as the house of Ahab had done, for he was son-in-law to the house of Ahab.”
              Ephesians 2:2 “Wherein in time past ye WALKED according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
              Colossians 3:7-8 “In the which ye also WALKED some time, when ye lived in them.
              But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.”
              Genesis 6:9 “These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah WALKED with God.”

              When Jesus said John 10:9 “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” Would you say Jesus is literally a door??

            • “Thanks Marc. You have showed that the Rapture does indeed occur prior to the tribulation – prior to the days of Noah.”

              The “rapture” of Enoch happened before the flood. The flood was the wrath of God on the earth where:

              “GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Gen 6:5)

              First we have a great wickedness in the earth
              Then we have the wrath of God (the flood)

              The flood was performed by God and was the wrath of God:

              “And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.” (Genesis 6:6-7)

              The great wickedness in the earth before the flood was a kind of tribulation where the wickedness was performed by evil people. “There were also giants in the earth in those days” (Gen 6:4)

              Now there are people that mistake TRIBULATION (from evil people or from the devil or from the antichrist at end-time) with WRATH (from God)

              The wrath of God follows the tribulation, – we cannot punish people before, for their wicked acts they have not yet done – . In the book of Revelation the vials of the wrath of God only comes in chapter 16:

              “And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.” (Rev 16:1)

              So I will rather says that Enoch walked with God before the flood of the wrath of God in the middle of a tribulation of a wicked earth that preceded that flood of wrath of God.

              “Do you believe that “walking with God” is literal? Appears rather naive. The Spiritual interpretation from the Bible concludes that “walking with God” is having an intimate and personal relationship with God as a lifestyle, not strolling about.”

              We can say that walking with God is spiritual, and it is, but here we are discussing about the rapture, and in Revelation Chapters 2 AND 3 (letters to the 7 churches) it is written:

              Jesus comes as a thief, like it is said that “the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night” in 1 Tess 5:2
              people that “are worthy. He that overcometh” will walk with Jesus “in white”, “shall be clothed in white raiment”, while people that commit fornication will be cast into great tribulation (Rev 2:22)
              they are kept from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (the tribulation):

              “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” (Rev 3:3-5)

              “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10)

              “Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.” (Rev 2:2)

              If the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs just before the said “rapture” – before we are “changed” – and as it is written we will be with them all with the Lord, it is clear that if the dead in Christ are in their resurrected body, those still alive with them are also changed. We cannot have one part of people changed in their resurrected body and another part of people still in their mortal body at the same time both with Lord.

              As people are changed into immortal body, it has no more sense to call this first event in the rapture process as “PRE-” or “MID-” tribulation “rapture” in the sense of having or not to go through the tribulation for “SUFFERING” purpose if people are already been changed into their immortal body. We can make a difference between GOING THROUGH the tribulation (being kept safe) and SUFFERING the tribulation. Will true believers be here and see the tribulation? Yes, at least part of it. Will they suffer during the tribulation? No, for they will already have been changed into their immortal body like the dead in Christ that have been resurrected, and “walk” with Jesus on earth before going to heaven for the marriage of the lamb, and then later come back with Christ at the second coming.

              Will that event happen before the start of a 7 years tribulation? Not necessarly. Nowhere it is said in the Bible that the rapture triggers the tribulation, nowhere it is said in the Bible that people begins to be persecuted the first minute of the the first day of a 7 years long tribulation. It rather seems that the persecutions last for a “time, times and half of time”, or 3 and a half years, or 1260 days, or 42 months period. The first half of the 7 years may be peacefull. In fact, it is written:

              “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” (1 Tess 5:3)

              Again, nowhere it is written that this happens before a 7 years loing tribulation. This can happen anytime during the first half of the 7 years, as it is even possible that we won’t know the exact day the seven years will have begun until after some time. I don’t think that the antichrist is fool enough to appear on CNN and says: “I am the Messias, and today I sign a 7 years peace agreement with Israel!” How can then people be deceived like it is written that “insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”? (Mat 24:24)

              Now that’s the best I can guess from the scriptures, I can be wrong on some points and am ready to discuss it and make corrections where necessary. There is no need to treat people that have another view of the rapture timing as “heretic”, “unsaved” or “blood-hungry”. Nobody knows exactly when and how all these things will happen. We will know later. This is a concept called “progressive revelation”.

              For those who are interested, there is an interesting prophetic dream of the rapture here:

              http://secondhandprophet.com/new_page_83.htm

    • Kiwiwatcher

      Matthew 7:15-17 “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
      Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
      Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.”

      2 Peter 2:1-2 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
      And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”

      Matthew 24:11 “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”

      Timothy 4:3-4 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

      2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ” For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
      And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
      Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”

      2 Timothy 3:5 “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”

      • MRH

        @ Kiwiwatcher: Are you accusing me of being a false figure just because I don’t agree with your brand of theology? Let me remind you that the Jewish leaders didn’t agree with Jesus or Paul either. They were murderers at heart 😉

        Jhn 8:13, 48, 52, 59 KJV – The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. … Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? … Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. … Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

        Regarding your 3 questions, I gave you my answers but you ignore them. Rather you delight in bashing me. Why? 🙁

        • Kiwiwatcher

          YES I AM, MRH. This is all your own doing – take ownership of it.

          If the hat fits MRH – wear it. Yep….you utter pure rubbish. Tripe of the highest order, as mentioned Scripturally above. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, acts like a duck – believe me – it is a duck.

          Matthew 7:16 “Ye shall know them by their fruits…..” I accused you of presenting false information, —-information contrary to what Jesus declared, and contrary to what the Scriptures state.

          Jeremiah 23:1 “Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.”

          If you don’t like the heat – get out of the kitchen. But you did ask.

          If you are bothered by the position you find yourself – look in the mirror. What do you expect when you appear on brother Jimmy Randolph’s page, who had invested significant time and energy into a message, which you chose to ignore and instead plastered your false doctrine by scrolling up and down to all and sundry, advised other posters to “research matters; need to study scripture better, not here to play traditional games, to pull your head out of the sand, Anyway, you don’t understand things” – all your own words MRH!

          Have some respect. Pull your head out from between the cheeks. Earn some brownie points instead of attempting to show-off to other posters with mindless dribble.

          Then you stepped into my space spouting a false doctrine in a condescending manner. People like you who erode the doctrine of the True Church get under my skin. The numbers of the True Church are small enough as it is, without a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

          Jeremiah 14:14 “Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.”

          Some small advice – your method of cherry picking verses then stitching them together to create a ‘new’ delusionary concept is decidedly wicked. I for one….dont actually read your poison, as it appears to be complete nonsense, is contaminating to the mind, and all together, a bundle of confusion. Copy and paste of countless Scriptures is not a sign of a knowledgeable or God fearing person. Satan and his clan of demons are also very familiar with the Bible.

          2 Timothy 3:13 “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

          Personally I don’t know the Bible that much, but anything I do know – I quite like to share. Unfortunately for you MRH, you stood directly on the precise topic I have been studying for some time and you vomited out bile. Snap! Meanwhile, any doctrine or Scriptures that I know little about – I stay silent, listen to others, or make inquiries and study. And yes, I don’t mind apologizing to others here as I have done previously ….as long as I pick up another treasure.

          But this I can say MRH, the alice-in-wonderland fan. Your last days doctrine is completely bonkers. But what you do say as being true and correct – is that there actually will be a tribulation and Jesus Christ will return to stand on earth. Other than that – zip.

          2 Timothy 4:2 “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
          For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
          And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
          But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
          For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.”

          • MRH

            @ Kiwiwatcher: What you don’t understand is that NTEB is a public blog to share varied beliefs. And if you hadn’t noticed, there is mixed opinions here.. i.e. tribulation vs. rapture theories. So rather than accuse me of being an impostor, you could maybe try and accept that we are all on a learning curve? But since I joined NTEB back in 2013, I’ve experienced mostly negative stuff. Whenever someone posts something contrary to another, war ensues. This is not good as pertaining to saints 🙁

            Jas 3:8-10, 14-18 KJV – But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. … But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

            Jas 4:8-12 KJV – Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH – that I DO understand (NTEB). What you dont understand is that if you prance up and down telling people how they need to research more, study the Scriptures more etc, while you spout a poisonous and different gospel, then expect the brickbats.

              A learning curve means – “to learn” – an activity you struggle with.

              You asked why am I on your case and I told you, – so handle it.

              An Impostor! – as I said. If the hat fits – wear it, because a saint you are not.

          • MRH

            “What you dont understand is that if you prance up and down telling people how they need to research more, study the Scriptures more etc, while you spout a poisonous and different gospel”

            @ Kiwiwatcher: So I get carried away, but so do you with me. Truth is I get frustrated with some comments which I believe are in error. So I try to correct things with scripture or such, but people don’t like being corrected. Nevertheless it’s my job as a Christian to witness truth are correct error. Otherwise I wouldn’t even engage in the blogs, as they are filled with spiritual garbage. People always at each others throats. In fact that contrary woman Sharon left because of all the bickering. And I don’t blame her, but I can’t leave.. orders from above 😉

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH/Kelly – utter Bullocks! I never have, and never will get carried away with you.

              The error lies with YOU….not others. Your ability with the Scriptures is ZERO, and NO – you are not a True Christian. Being born again – Salvation, is what enlightens a person to the Scriptures….not being involved with satanic websites, as your doctrine is completed twisted.

              Believe me – the voices you hear – are your neighbors

          • MRH

            @ Kiwiwatcher: I now know whom you are (a demon), regardless of your many silly names 😉

            P.S. Your wicked words declare things! So what will be your next ‘name’ ‘avatar’ game? :O

      • MRH

        @ Kiwiwatcher: Alright I will do my best to answer your below question/s, but don’t expect much 😉

        Jesus said “the Son of Man” is seated at the right hand of God, also said there will be a sign of “the Son of Man” in Heaven, and “the Son of Man” will be coming in the clouds for his return to earth.

        You said the title “the Son of Man” refers to his flesh form, thereby declaring the flesh and blood of Jesus is seated in Heaven. Where is your supporting Scriptures please?? As the Word of God differs very much from you.

        The bible does not say what the ‘Son of man’ phrase means, except that Jesus returns in heavenly body fashion. Nor does the bible say what the heavenly ‘sign’ will be. Nor does it explain the heavenly ‘seating’ aspect.

        • Kiwiwatcher

          I have never expected much MRH…..just a simple apology to readers/posters and an admittance to being wrong. Would have been easier on everyone rather than this tooth pulling exercise. It is to God in person to whom you will making the full explanation.

          The simple version is that the Bible does not state what you claimed earlier – that “the Son of Man” describes His flesh form. And no – you had not answered my question earlier, although I asked it three times.

          Romans 2:8 “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath”

          • MRH

            @ Kiwiwatcher: Why should I admit to being wrong if I believe I’m right? Would you? As for ‘Son of man’ the bible does not explain that I’m aware of. But it does say that Jesus now has a spiritual body, but it doesn’t detail things. So if you can’t accept that for an answer, then I don’t know what else to say. I only know as I learn 😉

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH – are you really as silly as you appear?? Or are you a complete liar with serious issues??

              If the Bible does not explain “the Son of Man” as far as you are aware – then why did you say that “‘the Son of Man’ means his flesh form?” (this does fit where you claim spiritual meanings from pure empty air – magical stuff, like your alice-in-wonderland webpage)

              1)If you maintain your original answer regarding ‘the Son of Man’ then you oppose what Jesus said and what is written in the Scriptures.

              2)If you have now changed your mind to Jesus now has a spiritual body – then your original answer is wrong.

              Jesus said that after the Cross he will be seated at the right hand of God in the form as “the Son of Man.”
              Luke 22:69 “Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”

              Learning is not your strong suit is it as you only have two positions. Contrary to popular belief there is no third position.
              Jesus said Matthew 12:30 ” He that is not with Me is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me, scattereth abroad.”

          • MRH

            “If the Bible does not explain “the Son of Man” as far as you are aware – then why did you say that…”

            @ Kiwiwatcher: Have you never heard the terms ‘speculate’ or ‘theory’? If scripture isn’t clear on things, all we can do is guess or ignore things. As for changing my mind on ‘Son of man’, that I never did. I’ve always stated that Jesus post resurrection form is a spirit being. But whatever that means we don’t yet know. Nor will we have such knowledge until Christ returns and transforms us into the same form as Jesus has now. Agreed?

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH – whatever name – Agree with your hideous poison??? – But not on your nelly….or is it Kelly?

              Guesswork, speculation or theories is not an option in regard to the Scriptures – the Word of God.
              If you do not know…..then keep the cake-hole closed.

              1 Timothy 2:12 “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” Comprendre?

              What gives you the right to say “we dont know yet.” – Dont lump others into your dark basket – clearly you do not know, but you still spout out the tripe regardless.

              The knowledge is in the Scriptures. Proverbs 2:6 “For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.”

              So dont run about spreading your evil confused tripe. If you have not changed your mind – then you are an anti-christ.

              Daniel 5:27 “TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.”

          • MRH

            @ Kiwiwatcher: Your relentless stabbings hold no holy water with scripture 🙁

            Guesswork, speculation or theories is not an option in regard to the Scriptures – the Word of God.
            If you do not know…..then keep the cake-hole closed.
            Uhmm.. scripture doesn’t declare such nonsense 😉

            What gives you the right to say “we dont know yet.” – Dont lump others into your dark basket – clearly you do not know, but you still spout out the tripe regardless. Maybe you don’t know the bible very well? 😉

            1Co 13:9-12 KJV – For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH/Kelly – 1Co 13:9-12 KJV – “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part…..”

              MEANS – Discuss ONLY what you know – otherwise keep the cake-hole closed. Exactly as the Bible says. Dont make it up ‘cos you dont know. LIKE YOU DO

    • Diogo

      Many Thanks for this information, and its acurrate.

      Jacobs or not, real christians with real purposes are being espiritually and physically chased and tribulated, some for non-aparent reasons, when seen from where the world stands.

      We also need to address that issue realistically, its our job as pastors or leaders to ensure we dont hide that truth on the back of luke-warm-paying-church-goers.

    • 1 harpazo

      Hello all, just found your website today and am a first-time poster.

      Bro. Jimmy, I noticed that nobody (so far) has referred to Luke 17:26-30:

      26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

      27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

      28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

      29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

      30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
      KJV

      Jesus just gave us the pattern or sequence of events of when the Son of Man is revealed. They are the same as what happened in Noah’s day and Lot’s day. Did you see that? What’s the pattern? Removal of the righteous, then on THE SAME DAY God’s wrath on the unrighteous begins and once His wrath begins none of the unrighteous are saved. On the same day. The rapture occurs on the same day that the Son of Man is revealed and on the same day that God’s wrath begins on the unrighteous. When the righteous are removed from the earth, the only ones left are the unrighteous (obviously) and they are destroyed during the outpouring of God’s wrath.

      So, when does God’s wrath begin? The pre-tribbers teach that it begins at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. If that’s so, then nobody will be saved during the 70th week and that is according to what Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30.

      In Rev 6:9-11 Jesus told John:

      9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

      10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

      11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
      KJV

      God’s wrath does not start until the last martyr appears under the altar in heaven, right? So if one martyr comes out to the great tribulation, God’s wrath has not started. If fact, God’s wrath starts when Jesus returns (is revealed) to rapture His Church out of the great tribulation which He cuts short for the sake of the elect. (The tribulation/great tribulation is a period of time inside the 70th week the same as your vacation is a period of time inside the year of 2016) The great tribulation is cut short, but the 70th week is a full 2520 days. The rapture is neither pre- nor post-tribulation; it is pre-the wrath of God.

      • CORRECTION: The Church is safe and secure in Heaven from the moment the Antichrist is revealed. It’s called the time of Jacob’s trouble for a reason, it’s all about Israel.

        • 1 harpazo

          You got any scripture to support your post? “…from the moment the Antichrist is revealed”? When is he revealed? Is the 70th week of Daniel God’s wrath? Jesus said, “When you see the Abomination of Desolation…” Who’s the “you” He’s referring to? Who’s the “you” who will be delivered to tribulation and killed and hated by all nations “ON ACCOUNT OF MY NAME” (Matt 24:9)? Peter said that Christians would be reviled for the name of Christ (1Peter 4:14).

      • MRH

        @ 1 harpazo: The wrath is the latter half of tribulation. Also the resurrection precedes the rapture. Consider scripture 😉

        1Co 15:20-24 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

        There will be two stages unto the second coming and tribulation. The first stage occurs in the middle of the tribulation, and the last stage at the end of tribulation. Matthew 24:27 is the midpoint, and Matthew 24:30 is the endpoint. The resurrection occurs at the first stage, and the rapture at the last stage. Below is my breakdown of things 🙂

        Mat 24:15 KJV – When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) [THE END countdown begins]

        Mat 24:21 KJV – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [Stage #1 = Tribulation (part 1)]

        Mat 24:27 KJV – For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Stage #1 = Subtle Return]

        Mat 24:28 KJV – For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. [Stage #1 = Resurrection (part 1 – the just)]

        Mat 24:29 KJV – Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Stage #2 = Tribulation (part 2)]

        Mat 24:30 KJV – And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Stage #2 = Dramatic Return]

        Mat 24:31 KJV – And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Stage #2 = Rapture and Gathering event]

        [Stage #3 = Millennium (saints only)]
        [Stage #4 = Resurrection (part 2 – unjust)]
        [Stage #5 = Final judgment – unjust (GWT)]
        [Stage #6 = Paradise (new universe)]

        P.S. Once the resurrection process begins, the world will be in total chaos, proving that living Christians are an integral part of the worlds structure. A concept well detailed in the Left Behind media. The roadways around the globe will be a mess because of multiple accidents. Businesses will collapse due to missing workers and such. Families will be broken up due to vanished elements. Granted these troubles are present already, but only in minor fashion. But when millions or billions suddenly drop out of the blue, these things will be magnified in intensity :O

        • Kiwiwatcher

          MRH/Kelly – BTW before you scurry back to chasing aliens, and seeking dark twisted signs on cereal boxes, ……… just where does it state that “NTEB is a public blog to share varied beliefs” – as you claim.

          • MRH

            “just where does it state that “NTEB is a public blog to share varied beliefs” – as you claim.”

            @ Kiwiwatcher: Well NTEB used to have a page regarding blog conduct and content, but seems the page no longer exists. However as I recall the blog is open unto varied beliefs, though not all does NTEB agree with.

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH/Kelly – dreaming again perhaps. I look forward to hearing whether NTEB is/was open unto varied beliefs as you claim.

            • Kiwiwatcher

              MRH/Kelly – regardless – NTEB CURRENTLY does not state that it is public blog to share varied beliefs…so you know what to do with yours.

        • 1 harpazo

          Let’s backup to Matt 24:3: As He (Jesus) was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

          The disciples asked Jesus, “…what is the sign of Your coming…?” It’s singular. There is only one coming. No stages…it’s one event. Now couple that with, “… (the sign) of the end of the age.” The end of the age is the end of the Church age. So Jesus’ return (coming) puts an end of the Church age. How? He comes to cut the great trib short for the sake of His elect (the righteous) but the 70th week continues so that He can pour out His wrath on those who are left (the unrighteous).

          You said, “Mat 24:27 KJV – For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Stage #1 = Subtle Return]” You should probably change the word “subtle” to something like, “glorious, spectacular, supernatural, awe-inspiring, etc.” When Jesus returns, the entire earth will be in total darkness (the sign of the end of the age). The light of His glory will light up the entire earth (the sign of His coming) hence “the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west…” The word lightning can mean like the sunrise, only in this case the lightening will be instantaneous, not gradual like our sun rises. This is anything but a “subtle” event. It will be miraculous, to say the least.

          You said, “Mat 24:28 KJV – For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. [Stage #1 = Resurrection (part 1 – the just)]” This verse is a euphemism for judgment. The word “carcass” implies “death, corruption, decay”. The word “eagles” can also be translated “vultures”. So the “vultures” are coming to pick the carcass clean or said another way, Jesus is coming to judge the unrighteous left on the earth for their sins (death, corruption and decadence). This not the resurrection.

          You said, “Mat 24:29 KJV – Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Stage #2 = Tribulation (part 2)]” This is the sign of the end of the age. Again, this end of the Church age immediately before the return of Jesus. This is the “dimming of the house lights at the end of one scene of a stage production just before the raising of the house lights at the beginning of the next scene” v. 27 and 30.

          You said, “Mat 24:30 KJV – And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Stage #2 = Dramatic Return]” This is the sign of His coming that the disciples asked about in verse 3. “Dramatic return”=only return.

          Mat 24:31 KJV – And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Stage #2 = Rapture and Gathering event]” This is when the dead in Christ are raised and those who are alive and remain will meet them in the air (Gk: aero) and be with Jesus wherever He is forever.

          The “Left Behind media” is purely conjecture and I would say false. Once the righteous are removed, nobody is saved after the removal. Read Luke 17:26-30.

          • MRH

            “There is only one coming. No stages…it’s one event”

            @ 1 harpazo: Nope, as below often overlooked scripture explains [*] 😉

            1Co 15:20-24 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming [Stage #1 = Resurrection]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father [Stage #1 = Rapture]; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

            Note: THE END = :: End of the world. Harvest period. Wrath of God. Day of the Lord 😉

            As for Mat 24:27-28 possibly the below scripture holds the key? 🙂

            Luk 17:20-24 KJV – And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation [invisible]: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you [God dwells in the Christian]. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

            Note: The above passage has elements which are missing in Mat 24 😉

            Luk 17:34-37 KJV – I tell you, in that night there shall be two men [nix ‘men’] in one bed; the one shall be taken [received], and the other shall be left [abandoned]. Two women [nix ‘wommen’] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men [nix ‘men’] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

            Note: The meaning of above passage is opposite of what is taught due to several translation errors. FYI the KJV italics were added by translators. Below is Strongs 😉

            Lexicon :: Strong’s G1909 – epi (men in) = upon, on, at, by, before
            Lexicon :: Strong’s G3880 – paralambanō (shall be taken) = to take to, to take with one’s self, to join to one’s self
            Lexicon :: Strong’s G863 – aphiēmi (shall be left) = to send away
            Lexicon :: Strong’s G4983 – sōma (the body) = the body both of men or animals
            Lexicon :: Strong’s G105 – aetos (the eagles) = an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle

            Ok, I’ll try and deal with the rest tomorrow, as other duties call now 🙂

            P.S. Ignore Kiwiwatcher as he’s just a mean spirited troll (his owl eyes are a clue) 😉

            • 1harpazo

              @MRH- You said, “… afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming [Stage #1 = Resurrection]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father [Stage #1 = Rapture]…”.

              Paul wrote 1 Thess 4:15-17:
              For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

              You quoted Paul from 1 Corinthians “…they that are Christ’s at His coming…”. “At His coming” is a singular event. Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians “…then we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord…”. Paul said, “…the coming…”. Again it is a singular event. There is only on “coming”. Everyone that is in Christ at His coming will be raptured. The quick and the dead will go into the air to meet Jesus.

              Also in your post, you quoted Luke 17:20-24 and 34-37. But you skipped the most important part: Luke 17:26-30. In those five verses, Jesus gives us the exact sequence of events of the rapture and judgment. Jesus uses Noah and Lot to describe the pattern of events at His revealing (coming in Matthew). In Noah’s day and Lot’s day, the pattern was that on the same day that the righteous were separated from the unrighteous (rapture when the Son of Man is revealed), God’s wrath (judgment) begins on all who are Left Behind (the unrighteous). As it was in Noah’s and Lot’s days, so it will be when the Son of Man is revealed-all the unrighteous will be destroyed.

              You said, “Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father…”. The “end” is the end of the Church age. That age ends at the rapture. As you said, the kingdom of God is God dwelling in the Christian. So at the end of the Church age, the Church is the kingdom of God that Jesus delivers up God the Father through the rapture.

              The great tribulation begins at the Abomination of Desolation and end when Jesus comes back to cut it short (the 70th week continues) for the sake of the elect. The antichrist has all power and authority and starts the A of D. The only one with more power and authority is Jesus and He is the only one who can stop the great tribulation.

              Daniel wrote to ISRAEL in Dan 12:11-12: “From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days (30 days past the end of the 70th week). 12 “How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days (30+45=75 days after the end of the 70th week) days!” So the Israelis who go through the entire 70th week PLUS 75 days will be blessed. The elect is not Israel, they are the Church. The Church is removed at the end of the great tribulation but sometime before the end of the 70th week. The Jews who go to the 1,335th day will be blessed.
              NASU

          • MRH

            @ 1 harpazo: The rapture vs. tribulation is perhaps one of the most controversial topics? 🙁

            Yes, there is only one second coming, and it concludes the church age. However the world continues for a brief time of judgment [vengeance], concluding with Christ appearing to the world in full glory from heaven, with his many angels 😉

            1Th 4:15-17 KJV – For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds [angels], to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            So the question is; ‘alive and remain’ after what.. tribulation? Also we assume that there is no time between verse 16 and 17, but is that so? Bible prophecy does not always follow a direct timeline. Case in point Daniel 9:24-27, where there are many centuries between final verses. But if read literally straightforward, there are no time gaps. And this is true in other prophecy segments as well, which complicates understanding 🙁

            2Th 1:7-10 KJV – And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

            So as seen above, Jesus returns with his angels.. not with the saints? Unless the saints are part of the heavenly lot?

            As for Luke 17:26-30 I ommitted passage because it pertains to the wrath period, not the prior resurrection of saints. Also not all saints are glorified at Christs return. Only those of the church age are. Afterwards are the martyrs of the beast period. As for the abomination event, I believe it pertains to the finished pyramid. Because when the floating capstone drops into place the NWO is born. But such end time knowledge can’t be found in scripture 🙁

            • 1harpazo

              @MRH You said, “Yes, there is only one second coming, and it concludes the church age. However the world continues for a brief time of judgment [vengeance], concluding with Christ appearing to the world in full glory from heaven, with his many angels ”

              Where is Jesus during this “brief time of judgment”? Supporting scripture? Your statement, “…concluding with Christ appearing to the world in full glory from heaven, with his many angels.” First, it implies that Jesus appeared or did something that the world was not aware of. When or what did He do secretly? Second, it implies the time gap that you espoused. I can only go back to what Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30. On the same day that He raptures the Church, the judgment begins and nobody is saved. On the same day. When He is finished judging the unrighteous, what happens?

              Matt 24:30
              And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
              KJV

              Imagine all the spirits of the dead in Christ dressed in white coming with Him to be re-united with their incorruptible bodies (1 Cor 15:52-54; 1 Thes 4:16) as “the clouds of heaven”. I can see millions of spirits dressed in white looking like clouds, but that’s just me.

              1Th 4:15-17 KJV – For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds [angels], to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

              You said, “So the question is; ‘alive and remain’ after what.. tribulation? Also we assume that there is no time between verse 16 and 17, but is that so? Bible prophecy does not always follow a direct timeline. Case in point Daniel 9:24-27, where there are many centuries between final verses. But if read literally straightforward, there are no time gaps. And this is true in other prophecy segments as well, which complicates understanding.”

              “So the question is; ‘alive and remain’ after what.. tribulation?” Yes and more. We remain until the end of the great tribulation when Jesus comes (returns, is revealed, appears) the only time to rapture the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain on the same day. Again, in Luke 17:26-30, Jesus makes no distinction in rapturing the dead in Christ at a different time from rapturing those who are alive and remain. When Jesus returns (is revealed), He separates all of the righteous (both the dead and those who are alive) from the earth at the same time.

              2Th 1:7-10 KJV – And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

              You said, “So as seen above, Jesus returns with his angels.. not with the saints? Unless the saints are part of the heavenly lot?” I’m not disputing that Jesus returns with His angels. Just because Paul doesn’t include “the saints”, actually it would be the spirits of the dead in Christ, doesn’t mean that they are not included.

              Here, let’s get the complete context of @ Thes 1:7-10: 2 Thess 1:6-12
              6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed — for our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

              The context is that Paul is telling the Thessalonians (actually those who are alive in the great tribulation) what will happen to those who afflict (persecute, torture, kill) them (Christians in the g.t.. Those who afflict will be afflicted when Jesus returns AND those who are afflicted by the persecutors will be given relief (raptured) when He returns.

              You said, “As for Luke 17:26-30 I ommitted passage because it pertains to the wrath period, not the prior resurrection of saints. Also not all saints are glorified at Christs return. Only those of the church age are. Afterwards are the martyrs of the beast period. As for the abomination event, I believe it pertains to the finished pyramid. Because when the floating capstone drops into place the NWO is born. But such end time knowledge can’t be found in scripture.”

              Again, going back to Luke 17:26-30, Jesus said that on the same day that the righteous are removed, God’s wrath begins and nobody is saved once His wrath begins. When does God’s wrath begin? It begins when the last martyr appears under the altar in heaven. Rev 6:9-11: “When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.”

              Did you see that? The martyrs ask the Lord, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Jesus responds, “…until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.” When their number is completed. So when the last martyr appears under the altar in heaven, God’s wrath, judgment, vengeance begins. If one Christian is martyred in the great tribulation, God’s wrath has not begun. The Church age ends at the end of the great tribulation.

              Your last sentence gives some clue to to your two-stage resurrection/rapture theory, the “beast period”, the non-biblical abomination event. You have revealed much in that sentence.

          • MRH

            @ 1 harpazo: Exactly what church are you of? As for below challenge, I’ll do my level best 😉

            On the same day that He raptures the Church, the judgment begins and nobody is saved. On the same day. When He is finished judging the unrighteous, what happens? | No, not true.

            Imagine all the spirits of the dead in Christ dressed in white coming with Him to be re-united with their incorruptible bodies (1 Cor 15:52-54; 1 Thes 4:16) as “the clouds of heaven”. I can see millions of spirits dressed in white looking like clouds, but that’s just me. | Scripture states that the dead are in a dreamless sleep (too many references to include here).

            When Jesus returns (is revealed), He separates all of the righteous (both the dead and those who are alive) from the earth at the same time. | The harvest is at the end, but Christ returns before for the saints; dead, living. After when the kingdom is delivered up to God. Again, the resurrection is NOT the rapture, but part of salvation process. One must be changed before they can enter heaven (spirit realm).

            I’m not disputing that Jesus returns with His angels. Just because Paul doesn’t include “the saints”, actually it would be the spirits of the dead in Christ, doesn’t mean that they are not included. | Scripture simply doesn’t say, so all we can do is guess 🙁

            The context is that Paul is telling the Thessalonians (actually those who are alive in the great tribulation) what will happen to those who afflict (persecute, torture, kill) them (Christians in the g.t.. Those who afflict will be afflicted when Jesus returns AND those who are afflicted by the persecutors will be given relief (raptured) when He returns. | Well all persecutors are future judged, no matter where in timeline they be. Consider the multitudes of martyrs throughout history, going back to Abel? All will be delivered at His return.

            So when the last martyr appears under the altar in heaven, God’s wrath, judgment, vengeance begins. If one Christian is martyred in the great tribulation, God’s wrath has not begun. The Church age ends at the end of the great tribulation. | Uhmm.. Christians of today can’t be the ‘beast’ martyrs, as Christians today are saved and sealed unto redemption (grace). The martyrs are in the wrath period, the Christians of tomorrow (law).

            Your last sentence gives some clue to to your two-stage resurrection/rapture theory, the “beast period”, the non-biblical abomination event. You have revealed much in that sentence. | So then what exactly is the abomination of desolation? As per my knowledge, scripture simply doesn’t tell us? Likewise concerning the beast and his mark? 🙁

            • 1harpazo

              Salvation process-does that include investigative judgment? Dreamless sleep-give me two N.T. references. You’re SDA, aren’t you? Obviously I struck a nerve when you have to ask, “Exactly what church are you of?” I just read my Bible and believe what Jesus said (especially Luke 17:26-30 and Rev 6:9-11).

              You replied that my statement, “On the same day that He raptures the Church, the judgment begins and nobody is saved. On the same day. When He is finished judging the unrighteous, what happens?” is not true. Did you bother to read Luke 17:26-30? Where’s your scripture to support your rebuttal? If fact, I noticed that in your entire post that you had no scripture references for your replies.

            • MRH

              @ 1 harpazo: No, I belong to no earthly church as most are corrupt. The ‘investigative judgment’ is false doctrine. Regarding church, I belong to the ‘church of God’ or ‘body of Christ’ as do you 🙂

              Regarding ‘death’ state 😉

              Psa 115:17 KJV – The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

              Psa 146:3-4 KJV – Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

              Ecc 9:4-6, 10 KJV – For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. … Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

              Isa 38:18 KJV – For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

              Note: Both Jesus and Paul often referred to death as a ‘sleep state’ and for good measure.

              Yes I read Luke 17:26-30, but you missed an important element. The Lords day is not a single day but a period of time.. i.e. ‘days’ 😉

              Luk 17:22, 26 KJV – And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. … And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

              Also in Revelation regarding the 7th angel 😉

              Rev 10:7 KJV – But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

            • 1harpazo

              @MRH: Thanks for the scripture references on the dead.

              You said, “Yes I read Luke 17:26-30, but you missed an important element. The Lords day is not a single day but a period of time.. i.e. ‘days’.”

              Nah, I didn’t miss anything. Jesus said in Luke 17:27-30: “…until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot… 29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.”

              On the day that Jesus is revealed, He raptures the Church and begins God’s wrath on the Left Behind and nobody is saved. This all happens when He cuts the g.t. short, but the 70th week continues to completion (the 2520th day) and the Jew who makes it to the 2595th day (1335 days from the A. Of D.)will be blessed (Dan 12:11,12).

              I honestly have not reconciled the timing of the seals, trumpet and vial judgments. Rev 10:7 says that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet the mystery of God is finished. The mystery of God is the Church so the angel sounds the trumpet at the end of the g.t. and then the vial judgments begin on the Left Behind.

            • 1harpazo

              @MRH: My last sentence should have read: The mystery of God is the Church so the angel sounds the trumpet at the end of the g.t. ending the Church age when Jesus raptures the Church and then the vial judgments begin on the Left Behind.

      • Kiwiwatcher

        1 harpazo, – wrong! Can I refer to you as MRH? Someone had already referred to ‘days of Noah’

        • 1 harpazo

          @ Kiwiwatcher: I’m not MRH but you can refer to me as anybody you want. My bad that I missed the post about “the days of Noah” before I posted. I should have been more thorough. But that post was NOT about the sequence of events that Jesus taught. If that’s all you got from my post, then you must be the “policeman” of the site and must correct posters without any meaningful input. Good day.

          • Kiwiwatcher

            My sincere apology for thinking you were MRH. She/he has numerous users names on the site.

            You would have noticed that whenever a statement is incorrectly, for example ‘days of Noah have not been mentioned’ and Marc and I already, then surely you can be corrected.

            If someone wishes to interject themselves into a conversation – then be prepared to be have the Bible at hand, rather than speculate or guess on Scriptural meanings. (MRH)

            James 5:19 “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
            Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”

            If it appears to be a ‘gong show’ – believe me – it was not for your benefit. And I do admit the tone was not always the best. Some people will step up to the mark in these last days.

            When Paul was chained to a Roman soldier he wrote 2 Timothy 4:7 “ I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:”
            “agaonizomai” greek for fought, means literally “to engage in conflict,” not to stand idly by.
            Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
            Ephesians 6:13 “Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”
            1 John 4:6 “We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”

            Tolerating the spirit of error is the first step of accepting the spirit of error.

            • 1 harpazo

              Apology accepted

    • ballistic

      what a gong show .. this will be my last post on this thread. i like nteb and 99% of its content.. EXCEPT not the contentios spirit in which this particular blog was written. And the fruit of this as seen is a hate fest going on. Again… i plead with the writer.. humble yourself.

    • Jewish Voice

      It is impossible for you Baptists to rightly divide the word of God because it has to be spiritually discerned and you Baptists refuse to allow the Holy Spirit dwell in you (1st Corinthians 2:14). And it shows in your writings…The Great Tribulation will start when the Prince commits the Abomination of Desolation (Daniel 9}27).

      • sHANTHI

        Rightly so!
        On the other hand, Jacob’s Trouble called Tribulation will begin with the Signing of the Peace Treaty of ” the prince who is to come” (Dan 9:26), which will be 7 Jewish Years (2520 days). The first 3½ years (1260 days) will be called the Tribulation where the 4 seals will befall the world, and by the 5th Seal the Great Tribulation will be ushered in with ‘ the prince’/false messiah, who will cause the abomination of desolation( Matt 24:15) , and require all to take the Mark of the beast.

    • Kiwiwatcher

      Reference to ‘the Son of man’ is a common enough occurrence but its meaning is often overlooked. Often people refer to ‘the Son of man’ as Jesus declaring His humility or describing his humble flesh and blood state on earth. Recall also, that the human form naturally has a spiritual element. Nevertheless, this is a very simplistic view and borders on blasphemy. ‘The Son of Man’ title as bodily appearance is in complete contrast to reality and is not supported at all by the Scriptures.

      Over 200 titles can be applied to Jesus but during His earthly ministry, Jesus is adamant that he is ‘the Son of Man.’ This is significant for many reasons. If wanting to know about a person, the first step is to first know how the person perceives themselves. More than 80 times Jesus is referred to as ‘the Son of Man’ in the Gospels. The majority of times Jesus bestows the title upon Himself. Only on a couple of occasions does someone else mention the title and they ask, “who is the Son of Man?”

      In the Book of Mark, Jesus refers to Himself ‘the Son of Man,’ ten times, while people call Him ‘Lord’, and ‘Christ’, each on three occasions. Often Jesus is called ‘Rabbi’ and ‘Master’ but no where does anyone call Him ‘the Son of Man.’ Since Jesus has a very high frequency of using the title, we are very much obligated as True Christians to study and fully understand its significance. Jesus has provided a message which will stand the test of time knowing full well, that false teachers will attempt to corrupt His message during the last days.

      Today, He is preached as God’s Son, Son of God, Lord, Christ, Savior, but He is not preached as ‘the Son of Man’ and yet that is the title He most often used for Himself.

      Jesus Himself posed the question in Matthew 16:13-17 “ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I, the Son of Man am?
      And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
      15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
      16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
      17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

      This particular segment of Scripture shows that the people of the time did not fully understand the title ‘the Son of Man’ and its relevance – very similar to today. Answering on behalf of the disciples Simon clearly states the Messianic properties and deity of the Lord Jesus displayed in the title

      The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ is proved by the title ‘the Son of Man.’

      The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath – Mark 2.28

      The Son of Man hath power to forgive sins – Matthew 13:41

      The Son of Man is coming in His glory with His angels – Matthew 16:27

      ‘The Son of Man’ title refers to a Heavenly Being who has come to earth – an apocalyptic reference having its roots in the Book of Daniel for the nation of Israel.
      Daniel 7:13-14 “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days (God), and they brought him near before him.
      14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

      This chapter of Daniel is written in Aramaic – a ‘sister’ language to Hebrew, and is a picture of God sitting on the throne as judge.

      The Aramaic expression ‘the Son of Man’ can mean ‘this is the Man,’ ‘when that Man comes,’ ‘that One we are looking for.’

      So when Jesus is speaking to the Jews and referring to Himself as ‘the Son of Man’ which is linked with the definite article – it can be understood as “I am the Man that you are looking for,” “I am that Man,” “I am the One.”

      Matthew 24:30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
      31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

      Here in Matthew, Jesus is clearly referring to Daniel where the Son of Man is coming in the clouds of Heaven to redeem Israel and to judge the world, and has nothing to do with the Rapture.

      Christ (not ‘the Son of Man’) will appear for His True Church and appear with Him in glory.

      ‘The Son of Man’ relates to earth being as it was in the days of Noah. Luke 17:26.
      ‘The Son of Man’ will not find faith on earth. Luke 18:8.

      Daniel could not prophecy and reveal a title related to the True Church as it was a ‘secret’ and not revealed. The title ‘the Son of Man’ is strictly the Lord’s title in dealing with Israel and His relationship with His chosen people. Paul never used the title ‘the Son of Man’ in his ministry, and neither should the True Church believe the title relates to them.

      • Kiwiwatcher

        Forgot to mention in concluding – that the title ‘the Son of Man’ is a description of authority and judgement.

    • sHANTHI

      QUOTE ” it is utter blasphemy to claim that a Christian must “endure to the end” by not taking the mark of the beast to be or remain saved!A Christian is a member of the body of Christ, and any person that proclaims to be a “Christian” while also believing they must have works to be saved or works to stay saved is NOT a saved! They are LOST and on their way to a devil’s Hell. ” END QUOTE by Bro. Jimmy Randolph

      like the days of Lot and Noah, NOT many are going to be caught up in the Rapture. Majority are going to be saved during the Jacob’s Trouble. This is abundantly clear in Revelation 7:
      13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes? and from where did they come? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them.16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun strike them, nor any heat.17For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

      They are Tribulation Saints – ” These are they who came out of the great tribulation,”.

      Rev 6:The Fifth Seal Opened

      9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little while, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

      These are those who were killed for the testimony of Jesus Christ during the Tribulation, for it clearly states that when the FIFTH SEAL WAS OPENED.

      Revelation 20:
      4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

      BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, FOR THE WORD OF GOD AND THOSE WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST, IMAGE OR TAKEN THE MARK.

      THIS AGAIN CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THEY ARE TRIBULATION SAINTS.

      Revelation 13:
      9If any man has an ear, let him hear.
      10He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

      HERE IS THE PATIENCE AND THE FAITH OF THE SAINTS.

      MATTHEW 24:

      21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

      BUT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT … elect here will be all those who came to Christ after the Rapture, both Gentiles and Jews, for the Bible says there is no difference between Gentiles and Jews under Christ(Romans 10:12).

      Again in v24b
      24 if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

      in verses
      12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold.
      13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

      The elect/Christians will be saved during the time of Jacob Trouble.

      please do rightly divide the Word not ” This lazy man’s trap door ” to be sprung for newbies.

      There is a warning for not rightly dividing the Word.

      James 3:1
      Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

      What you are doing is throwing a wet blanket on all those who are going to be left behind and are trying to turn to Christ AFTER THE RAPTURE. When they read this, they are going to have a defeatist attitude, that they are not going to be saved after the rapture. And from the Bible we gather that majority are going to come after the Rapture not before, so pl quit being a stumbling block. And repent, and take down this article. You will not be even before the Judgement Seat of Christ, for you will be judged harshly for teaching the wrong doctrine. You are right about the pretrib Rapture, but you are wrong about a whole lot of other things, and false prophets are always first on the list of God’s wrath and you wouldn’t want to join rank and file with them, do you?

      Moreover we are not saved by our works but by grace.Then again works is the fruit of the evidence of our saving faith. What does James teach us?
      James 2:
      Living Faith Results in Works
      14What does it profit, my brethren, though a man says he has faith, and has not works? can faith save him?

      17Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
      18Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works
      20But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
      21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
      22See how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
      23And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
      24You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
      25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
      26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

      OSAS is a theology that is going to take many, many through the Wide road and Broad gate to Hell.

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