The Pretribulation Rapture Of The Church As Found In The Book Of Revelation

This "new song" tells you exactly who this crowd of people in Revelation 5 is, for it can be no other. It is the only group in human history that was "redeemed by the blood of the Lamb".
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Had the Jews accepted the preaching of Stephen, instead of rejecting it and stoning him, the day of the Lord would have happened right there in Acts 7, and the Church Age would never have happened.

“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.” Revelation 4:1,2 (KJV)

In our day and age, the Church Age, as inconceivable as it might sound, there are many Christians who assail and attack the Bible doctrine of the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ. Scoffers go on to say, and wrongly so, that this doctrine was not taught before Mary McDonald and John Nelson Darby spoke about it in the early 1830’s. Some even say it was an invention of CI Scofield in his reference study Bible. Again, these statements have no bearing on the truth of any kind, as this article will endeavor to point out. Part of the “confusion” for some comes because there is more than one rapture in the Bible, and there is more than one time the phrase “come up hither” is used. A healthy dose of 2 Timothy 2:15 is the sure antidote for this pressing malady. So let’s get started, shall we?

The three ‘Come Up Hithers’ and the three Raptures in the Bible

In God’s preserved word as found in the King James Bible, the phrase “come up hither” only appears three times, and here they are:

  • “For better it is that it be said unto thee, Come up hither; than that thou shouldest be put lower in the presence of the prince whom thine eyes have seen.” Proverbs 25:7 (KJV)
  • “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Revelation 4:1 (KJV)
  • “And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.” Revelation 11:12 (KJV)

And amazingly enough, there are three raptures in the Bible as well. Though I am sure this is just a “coincidence”. Here they are:

  1. THE FIRST RAPTURE: This has already taken place, and it had nothing to do with the Church. “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV)
  2. THE SECOND RAPTURE: This is the one for the Church, and it will take place before the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7 KJV). Jacob’s Trouble is the same thing as the Great Tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Revelation 4:1 (KJV)
  3. The THIRD RAPTURE: This will take place during the time of Jacob’s Trouble, while the Church is in Heaven. “And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.” Revelation 11:11-13 (KJV)

The astute student of the Bible will notice that both the first and third raptures occur in the presence of an earthquake. Perhaps it has something to do with this:

“Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.” Hebrews 12:26 (KJV)

God’s voice “shook the Earth” when Jesus was on the cross, and it will “shake it again” during the time of Jacob’s trouble. But for the Church’s rapture, no shaking at all. A voice like a trumpet that only saved believers can hear, and we are g-o-n-e gone. Are you starting to see the difference in God’s plan for the Jews and His plan for the Church? They clearly are not the same.

This is begins to make sense when we understand that building a church was not why Jesus came. He came for His people, the Jews. Creating the Church was the backup plan when they rejected. So in effect we are a 2,000 year comma inserted in between the sandwich of Israel lost and Israel redeemed. Peter declared in Acts 2 that the “day of the Lord” spoken of by “Joel the prophet” was already coming to pass in that day. And had the Jews accepted the preaching of Stephen, instead of rejecting it and stoning him, the day of the Lord would have happened right there in Acts 7, and the Church Age would never have happened. But it didn’t. Acts 8 the first gentile gets saved, and in Acts 9 Saul becomes Paul and…here we are! Now that we have “set the table”, let’s take a look at our Rapture, the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church, as found in Revelation chapters 4 and 5. We start with John.

John is a type of the Church and experiences a type of the Rapture

The apostle John was not like any of the other 11 apostles, he was special and the Bible says so. In fact, the Bible says it multiple times, look it up.

“Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord.” John 21:7 (KJV)

The Church that Jesus eventually did create He loved very much, with a very special love that is likened unto the marriage between a man and a woman.

“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;” Ephesians 5:25 (KJV)

Because of John’s special relationship with Jesus, he is the apostle that lived the longest, and is the only apostle that didn’t die at the hands of the Romans. Furthermore, Jesus hand picks him to receive the Revelation of the time of the end. Pretty special, don’t you think? Just like the Church, pretty special and very different. John had tribulation with a small “t” but he didn’t die like the others did, right? Likewise the Church, though it always has had tribulation will not go through THE Tribulation for much the same reason. Think about that.

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In Revelation 4, versus one and two, John as a type of the Church is called up to Heaven in a type of the Rapture. What John experienced then is what the apostle Paul says will happen for the Church when the actual rapture takes place for us:

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 (KJV)

It is at this juncture that most rapture debates get a “flat tire” and drive off into the ditch. People here will start to argue about the “trumpets” and “voices” mentioned in the Bible. But we are going to bypass that and focus on what most people miss. We are going to look at what John saw when he got there.

“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.” Revelation 4:2,3 (KJV)

John is not in Paradise, he is not in Abraham’s Bosom, John is in Heaven at the Throne of God Himself. Which, another amazing coincidence, is exactly where Paul says all saved believers go immediately when they die. Hmm…

“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)

Who are the people singing this “new song”?

In Revelation 5, the wonderment continues and John sees an enormous throng of people and they are “singing a new song”. What are the words to that song you ask? Listen and see…

“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Revelation 5 9,20 (KJV)

This “new song” tells you exactly who this crowd of people in Revelation 5 is, for it can be no other. It is the only group in human history that was “redeemed by the blood of the Lamb”. The Christian Church! Furthermore, it says that these people God has made into “kings and priests” who “shall reign on the earth”. A huge time clue here is the use of the phrase “and we shall reign”, let me tell you why. If this is a vision of the Church in Heaven at the Rapture, then we would not be reigning with Christ, as the Bible says we will, until many years in the future from the moment when the Thousand Year Reign of Christ (Revelation 20) starts. And what about the “kings and priests”? Why, that is exactly how Peter describes the Church in the Age of Grace. Read it and see:

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” 1 Peter 2:9,10 (KJV)

Did you catch that? Peter says we are a “royal priesthood”, kings and priests indeed. The apostle Paul tells us right in 2 Timothy that saved believers will reign with Jesus Christ in the Millennium.

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:” 2 Timothy 2:11,12 (KJV)

(The right to rule and reign with Jesus is connected with how well you do at the Judgment Seat of Christ, for more on that click here.)

Furthermore, just to shut and lock the door on who the “kings and priests” of Revelation 5 are, allow me to call your attention to what John calls the Church in the opening chapter of the book of Revelation.

“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” Revelation 1:6 (KJV)

Certainly, if you are a Bible believer, you can clearly see that the it is the Church who are the “kings and priests” of God during the Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ. And it is without a doubt the Church that John is seeing in chapter 5.

The word “Church” disappears and is never used again after this point

John mentions the word “church” 7 times in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, and after Revelation 4 starts, the word “church” is never mentioned again. The Church itself is not seen on Earth until the end of Revelation 19. And what happens between the start of Revelation 6 to the end of Revelation 19 is the time of Jacob’s trouble, which is a time of testing and refinement for the nation of Israel. The rapture the Jews get is the Third Rapture mentioned above, the same one mentioned in Matthew 24. But it is not our rapture, just like the first one was not either.

But the Church of Jesus Christ, the very same Church you and I are a part of right now, is mentioned in great, graphic detail in Revelation 5. If Revelation 4 is not the Rapture of the Church, then what is the Church doing up there in chapters 4 and 5? There is no other group that has been a). redeemed by His blood, b). made kings and priests of God, and c). get to rule and reign with Jesus in the Millennium. That is exactly how Paul and Peter describe the Church.

Obviously, and for the reasons we’ve shown here, the Rapture of the Church happens before the start of the Tribulation in Revelation 6. And when you “rightly divide” your Bible as Paul commands us to, this is exactly the conclusion you come to.

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • Brandon

    This is another great post concerning the Rapture. God bless!!!!!!

    • Slamdunk

      I hope brother Geoff isn’t citing Prov. 25:7 as an OT reference to the rapture because it says, “Come up hither.” The context of verses 7 and 8 are about standing in the presence of a king, making sure not to exalt yourself. It is best for the king to say to you, “Come up hither and stand before me.,” and you do so humbly.

    • KW

      RE: “PRE-TRIB RAPTURE” Just one of countless WARNINGS by HIM; Christ Lord Jesus: Matthew 25: 1-13 HE Tells us that there are 5 wise virgins and 5 unwise virgins; the latter is not invited to the Wedding Banquet because they allowed themselves to run out of oil = Holy Spirit. They did not watch carefully and wait as Christ, Lord Jesus Tells all of us to do!

      There are countless verses throughout the entire bible and in particular in our New Covenant with Christ, Who Tells us to be obedient, to listen to HIM and HIM ONLY and not to become deceived or we will not be allowed in the First Resurrection.

      The entire purpose of living on earth is this: We want to be in the First Resurrection.

      Revelation 20:4-6

      4: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. [And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Lord Jesus Christ] and because of the Word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

      5: This is the First Resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

      6: [Blessed and holy are those who share in the First Resurrection] The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign (SERVE) with Him for a thousand years.

      “Pre-Trib rapture” is not now, nor never has been, in the Holy Word of God. We are not promised to be taken from the upcoming Great Tribulation; which is Satan’s wrath against God’s people and the world. (Matthew 24)

      However, we are promised safety from the Wrath of God and the Seven Vials of His Wrath if we follow His Ways and pray to be accounted worthy.

      Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

      The reason it is important to understand that this false doctrine is dangerous to believe in, is because many people undergoing great tribulation may lose their faith in Lord Jesus Christ. They have been led to believe He will “take them up” before all these things happen. Lord, God Almighty, knew, knows that these false teachings and false teachers were going to be here. He has told us and has warned us not to become deceived. We should try to understand and remember that all false doctrines will separate the wheat from the chaff. People should be aware of this and warn others as well. Serious stuff.

      EVERYTHING HAPPENS AT THE SECOND COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST; AT THE LAST TRUMP. THE WRATH OF GOD, THE BODILY RESURRECTION OF THOSE DEAD AND THE TRANSLATION OF THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN FROM CORRUPTIBLE TO INCORRUPTIBLE.

      1THESSALONIANS 4:15-17

      15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a Shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

      The term “rapture” and it’s “meaning” is not in the bible. It became a false teaching accepted by the lukewarm church in the 1830’s (and up to today) by Edward Irving and Margaret McDonald, and again in 1870’s by a Presbyterian minister of the Plymouth Brethren named John Nelson Darby. Darby became the father of dispensationalism, which eventually enticed spiritually sleeping Christians into advocating the creation of state of Israel within a political movement known as ZIONISM.

      For those believers who may believe in the “rapture”, you may want to read Matthew 24: 29-31, Isaiah Ch 13, Joel 2:10, Joel 3:15, Luke 21:25.

      Luke 21:26 speaks of mankind’s courage failing because of what’s coming upon them. Many people from the churches, will have already been completely deceived by or before this time by believing in false doctrines taught to them by the false teachers who are hirelings from today’s churches. Their trust or faith in Christ had not been truly renewed. And all because they did not go to HIM and HIM only. John 5:39-40

      Luke 21: 27-28 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Is Christ Speaking of those who don’t believe or is He Speaking to those who do believe and will escape GOD’S WRATH.

      This is the Lord God Almighty Himself speaking in:

      John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet, you won’t come to me so that I can Give you this Life Eternal Life.

      Following, in His Own Words, Lord Jesus Christ Himself tells us just the opposite of what the false teachers say and what many believe. If you’ve already read these, or when you do, how can you “teach” and or believe this false doctrine?

      Again, Daniel 7:21-22, Daniel 8:24, Rev 6: 9-17, Revelation 9: 2-3, Rev 12:11-12, 17, Rev 13: 7-10. These, among others, prove NO “pre-trib rapture”.

      Daniel 7:21-22 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days Came, and a Judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the Kingdom.”

      Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

      Dan 8:24-25 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and [also] the holy people. “Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt [himself] in his heart. He shall destroy many in [their] prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without [human] means.

      REV 6:9-17 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, Holy and True, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled. And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (12-13)=THE GREAT TRIBULATION: SATAN’S WRATH (THROUGH A MAN) ON GOD’S PEOPLE AND THE WORLD-MATTHEW 24)

      Revelation 9: 2-3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads

      Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; (MARTYRDOM) and they loved not their lives unto the death.

      Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye Heavens, and ye that dwell in Them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.

      Rev 13:7-8 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not Written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

      In 1Corinthians 15:52-55 Paul explains our corruptible bodies must put on incorruption, and that happens at the 7th Trumphet, not at the beginning of the Tribulation period.

      1 Corinthians 15: 52-55 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, [at the last trump:] [for the Trumpet shall Sound,] and the dead shall be raised incoruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?

      • marlene

        KW – ever since being born-again, the parable of the 10 virgins has been a stupefying thorn in my side. I never understood it and no one has explained it to my satisfaction, until you. Would you please tell me what is it that we do to cause us to run out of the oil of the Holy Spirit? I know that is the most important unforgivable sin. It is Written that fear is the absence of faith – I need to get over it. Yet my faith is as strong as can be, without any shred of doubt whatsoever that Jesus was born of a virgin, crucified on the Cross, descended into hell, was resurrected, ascended Heaven and will return and that He is indeed the Son of God and our Lord Savior. I’m anxious about what else to do to guarantee my salvation and what I might have done to lose it. Thank you so much for your comment. God bless you.

        • KW

          Dear Marlene,

          First of all, please be very comforted in the fact that by the words in your post, you are sincerely searching to remain in HIM. By the way, everything you have written within your post, you have to know and understand that all of us experience/ have experienced and go/ have gone through it.

          The Scriptures herein are Confirmation/Proof of what I’ve posted. Also, please bear with me re: this lengthy post.

          A little reminder to all of us: The Simplicity of Christ, Lord Jesus.

          Remember, He Designed Everything for us to come to Him and Him Only. 2Corinthians 11.3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the Simplicity that is in Christ.

          My deepest hope and prayer for you and for anyone of us sincerely seeking Christ, is to allow Scripture to be translated to us [by His Holy Spirit.] Also, herein, His Word Tells us how to keep Him Living in us=His Holy Spirit to Tell us what’s what.

          Mark 10:15 “I Tell you the Truth, anyone who doesn’t receive the Kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.”

          Matthew 18: 3-4 Then He said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.

          How to not run out of Oil: John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to Me! Yet, you won’t come to Me so that I can Give you this Life Eternal Life.

          If all of us diligently and sincerely strive to do that, 24/07, we will not run out of Oil=His Holy Guidance.

          Matthew 11: 28-29 Come to Me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I Will Give you rest. Take My Yoke upon you and let Me Teach you, [because] I am humble and gentle at heart, and [you will] find rest for your souls.

          If we slow down a bit and listen, we will hear Him, now.

          Psalm 46:10 Be still and know that I Am God.

          As you know, when God Speaks to us, it is very wise to listen. We have the Holy Spirit, now, to teach us the Entirety of Things that God our Father wants us to know. We have His Words, (God in Written Form) so that we hopefully and prayerfully will not make the same mistakes that mankind has made throughout Biblical History.

          If we humble ourselves to God, empty ourselves from ourselves, and serve Him, and not ourselves, we learn what we are to do:

          Glorify God, and not ourselves.

          We really have to forget everything we’ve been taught by people and traditions. When we do that, we will learn [and then] we will know His Ways. We will learn how to pray and what to pray for, so we don’t pray amiss. We must know Him if we are to know what to pray for.

          The first step for everyone is to Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Matthew 3:2

          and then Seek the Kingdom of God first and foremost: Matthew 6:33-34

          Please remember this: we, all of us are in training to serve, (not to “rule”; as we understand that word) but to serve with Lord Jesus Christ for the Kingdom of God to come. If we want to be accounted worthy for this Holy, Eternal Kingdom without end; to be accounted worthy to be heirs with Lord Jesus Christ, we should most definitely learn His Word and His Word only through the Master Rabbi Himself, God, Lord Jesus Christ.

          If we stumble, we ask for forgiveness, with sincerity, and then move ahead; always seeking Him and Him only.

          We are to be called from Above, by God Himself and not from below, earth and by man himself.

          JOHN 6:45 NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY. “IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.’ THEREFORE EVERYONE WHO HAS HEARD AND LEARNED FROM THE FATHER COMES TO ME.

          If we call ourselves, then we are just hirelings who don’t really care for others. Desire Truth above all else, then seek Him diligently and He will call you from Above.

          Once we’ve been trained by Lord Jesus Christ and Only Him, we can then [and only then] gently guide people to our Holy Lord Jesus Christ by speaking the Truth about His True Character and He will save them.

          You wrote: ‘It is Written that fear is the absence of faith – I need to get over it.’

          But, here are the verses:

          2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

          1 John 4:18 And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face Him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world. Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced His Perfect Love. We love each other because He Loved us first.

          THE ONLY CAPTIVITY WE WANT IS: 2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the Knowledge of God, and [bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.]

          Who else better to teach us than the Master Himself, The Word, the Author, The Only Rabbi; Lord Jesus Christ.

          What The Father wants:

          John 4:20-27 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do+ not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, I AM, The One Who Is Speaking to you, Is He.” And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman; yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why are You talking with her?”

          Here are just a few more Scriptures which tell us that Christ Himself, the Author of Truth, will Teach us. When He Teaches us, we will learn and believe. He tells us this.

          Read John 4:30-42

          However: John 4:39-42 Many Samaritans from the village believed in Jesus because the woman had said, “He told me everything I ever did!”

          40 When they came out to see Him, they begged Him to stay at their village. So He stayed for two days…..

          So, here, following, is exactly what will happen with us once we go to HIM and HIM ONLY! We will believe because it is HIM WHO TELLS US SO. We are to rely on Christ and not on mankind. People will have the honor of speaking about HIM but it is Christ and He only who will allow us to believe!!!

          41 long enough for many of them to hear His Message and believe.

          42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe because [we have heard Him ourselves], [not just because of what you told us.] “He is indeed the Savior of the world.”

          Again, John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures, for you believe they give you eternal life. And the Scriptures point to Me! Yet you won’t come to Me so that I can give you this Life Eternal.

          2 Corinthians 3:5-6 Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives Life.

          1John+ 2:27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and He lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what He teaches is true–it is not a lie. So continue in what He has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.

          1John 2:19-21 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

          1Timothy 4:16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on your teaching. Stay true to what is right, and God will save you and those who hear you.

          The bible is a map, so to speak, which leads us to HIM, NOW. Hopefully we will qualify to be able to serve with Him when He Returns.

          Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

          Let’s look at what God is doing NOW. He moves like the wind; never stagnant. He moves on ahead in us so we cannot stay where we are. His Spirit and Life are everything. If something is not of God, He shows it to us IF we have ears to hear HIM. We, all of us, are supposed to be in a loving family relationship.

          John 3:7-8 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again. ‘The Spirit breathes where He Wills, or where He Pleases, and you hear His voice, but you do not know where He Comes from or where He is Going, and so it is with everyone born of the Spirit’.

          For all of us:

          Ephesians 6:12 We’re not waging war against enemies of flesh and blood. No, this fight is against supernatural powers and demon princes that slither in the darkness of this world, and against wicked spiritual armies that lurk about in heavenly places.

          This is so true: James 1:12 God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him.

          A reminder to the “pastors”, “priests” who are called father this or that “, “reverends”, rabbis”, “elders” ,”deacons”, “imams” “bishops”, “pope” etc. and to all of us:

          HE MUST INCREASE; but i must decrease. JOHN 3:30

          Matthew 17:5 While He was still Speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a Voice out of the cloud Said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I Am well-pleased; HEAR HIM!”

        • Marlene, If you are truly born agin in the Spirit, there is nothing you can do to lose it. Salvation is by God’s grace alone. Once saved, always saved. This is what the KJV of the Bible both says and means.

          Having said this, there are many forms of false and apostate organized religion that teach the lies of Roman Catholicism or Arminianism (really the same thing) that salvation comes by grace + works, including the exercise of your mythical free will. For wicked and deceitful men to claim that puny man has the power to thwart the sovereign will of YHWH (God) is simply ludicrous and preposterous! Such a notion reveals that such false teachers have no clue just how magnificent and powerful the creator god who spoke the universe into existence truly is. The Bible reveals just how awesome YHWH is, but today very few people read the Bible and have a clue what it says in its entirety. Thus they are easily deceived and misled to their harm.

          The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of election that no false teaching pastor of today dares to teach. Why not? Because every form of organized religion is filled with spiritual goats (the non-elect) who are badly deceived and if they heard the truth, they would flee those spiritual houses of ill repute and the tithes and offerings would disappear. Organized religion is big business and it’s all about the money. So what’s the significance of election?

          The Bible teaches in Romans 9:21-23 and elsewhere that God creates two classes of people: the elect and the non-elect. Furthermore, God has made this determination since before the world began. The elect, whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life, which is mentioned multiple times in the book of Revelation, are God’s spiritual sheep and veils of honor fitted unto mercy which Romans 9:21-23 describes. The non-elect (all others) do not have their names written in the Lamb’s book of life and are the vessels of dishonor fitted unto wrath and destruction (by God) described in Romans 9:21-23. At sometime in the lives of every one of God’s elect, at God’s timing and at His initiative, He places His Holy Spirit in them, orchestrates events so that they hear the full gospel preached (first the bad news of our total depravity and that we are all headed for hell when we die at birth, and then the good news of Christ’s perfect sacrifice on the cross for our sins), we believe it (only because of the power of God’s Holy Spirit working in and through us), and we are saved… forever!! Anyone teaching you otherwise is a charlatan and a false teacher.

          Lastly, a parable is a simple story to illustrate a concept only. it is never to be taken literally. In the case of the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25, Christ is illustrating the concept of those with oil in their lamps as those remain watchful for the fulfillment of multiple end times prophecies (which have now been fulfilled, by the way), which signal the imminent return of Christ in the clouds with power and great glory to gather the elect to Himself in fulfillment of the prophecy of Matthew 24:30-31. This prophecy will be fulfilled sometime during a 45 day window of time starting on October 2, and ending on November 16 of this year because end times prophecy in Daniel 12:11-12, applied to an event that occurred on March 22, 2013, which was the fulfillment of the prophecy of Matthew 24:15, which signals the start date of the great tribulation, permits us to now deduce when it must end and when the blessing date of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 19:9 must occur. Between these two prophesied events, the prophecies of Matthew 24:29-31, followed by those of Revelation 19:7-9 HAVE to occur by simple logical deduction.

          How do I know all these things? Simple. God has called me to be His true prophet (which merely means messenger or narrator of His story revealed in the Bible) and one of His watchmen on the wall in these final days of the end times. Don’t take my word on any of this. Go research what God’s word says on all of this. If you are truly born again in the Spirit, the Spirit will reveal these truths to you. If you are not, He will not. Only the elect become born again. And only the elect are gathered to Christ when He comes. This is what the KJV of the Bible both says and means. Anything which contradicts what I have faithfully taught from the Scriptures here is, be definition a lie and all lies find their origin in the devil, the father of lies and ruler of this perishing earth.

          • MICHAEL

            I had to stop reading when I saw you date setting. Matthew 24:15 hasn’t happened yet. The temple is not even built. Mens hearts failing them for fear. Look around, yes thing are really bad, but it isn’t perilous times as noted in the bible. It is for Germany and all those that let the invasion in. Joshua and Judges clearly shows in multiple instances of what is taking place in Europe.

            Then to say that when your born your going to hell as God picked and chose who he wills. No, the reason he foreknew you is hes is the beginning and the end. He can truly say that there are those that wont make it as he knows it all from the start to the finish. This is like the pre-trib fib. When read in context you can see God calls. (will that none should perish) The last verse in Romans 9 speaks volumes. 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

            Key point. WHOSOEVER

      • Simply put, the pre-trib rapture is a hideous fraud and a doctrine of devils taught by false teachers who are wolves in sheep’ clothing in these final days of these end times.

        Forget the fraud of dispensationalism. Read the Bible for what it clearly says in Matthew 24:15-31: first the start of the great tribulation is triggered by the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 (which occurred both literally and metaphorically on March 22, 2013). This 1,290 day period of time Daniel 12:11 for where this 1,290 days comes from) is described in verses 15-28. Second, four celestial events described in verse 29 occur. Third, the gathering of the elect to Christ in the clouds occurs, described in verses 30-31. Thus the gathering, or first resurrection, is a Post-Trib gathering. the words are very simple and very clear on this. One has to be strongly deluded by God, in perfect fulfillment of the end times prophecy of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 to believe otherwise.

        • Ady Saxman

          Well said!

        • Emery

          The gathering of the remnant of the 144,000, what you call the “elect”, is the first resurrection. The second occurs when the final battle ends. There is no gap between the end of the tribulation and the final battle. The final battle is the culmination of the tribulation, and is the destruction of all religions of man and all governments of man in the blink of an eye.

          • That is not at all what the Bible says or means. Nowhere in all the Bible does it equate the 144,000 with the elect, the chosen, the set-apart ones, God’s vessels of honor, God’s spiritual sheep. You have just added to God’s word and in the process violated the teachings of Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18. Now you’re in trouble. Big trouble with YHWH. Let’s see you try to weasel your way out of this one.

            The first resurrections is of all the elect from the past 6,000 years. We are the ones who are blessed and bound for eternal life. The second resurrection is for everyone else (the non-elect) who are cursed and who will face the great white throne judgment and be condemned to eternal torment in the burning lake of fire and brimstone.

            As of today, August 6, we are a mere 57 days away from the end of the great tribulation which we, the elect, are now having to endure, which ends on October 2. If you are not enduring hatred, persecution, mockery and scorn from the world now, you are not one of the elect. It’s just that simple.

          • My, my, the false prophecies are flowing like water today!

        • Richard

          Oh joy. Watchman is back. Setting dates no less. I believe he is teaching that the tribulation has already started.

          • Show me one place where God or the Bible forbids applying end times prophecy to recent world events to deduce where we are in YHWH’s prophetic Biblical timeline. You cannot do it because it never says such an absurd thing.

            Not only has the great tribulation of Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 already started, it is a mere 57 days away from ending! Denial of the obvious merely reveals you to be one of the non-elect, one of God’s vessels of dishonor fitted unto God’s wrath and imminent destruction, as clearly explained in Romans 9:21-23. I have proven these truths beyond a reasonable doubt i.n my book, “Making Sense Out of a World Gone Mad: A Roadmap for God’s Elect Living in the Final Days of the End Times.” Not one person has been able to show me where I am in error in over 17 months of my book being out there. Mockery and scorn of that which makes your demons squirm isn’t an argument. It is a mark of desperation of a con artist caught in his own lies. what other option is left to him but to deny, deny, deny? Yet an honest reading of God’s word proves him dead wrong.

          • Richard

            Watchman on the Wall gave the following dates.

            March 22, 213 + 1,290 days = October 2, 2016 when the great tribulation ends.

            March 22, 2013 + 1,335 days (from Daniel 12:12) = November 16, 2016 when the blessing date of Revelation 19:9 arrives.

            Between these two dates, separated by 45 days, the prophecies of Matthew 24;29-31, followed by those of Revelation 19:7-9 have to occur for prophecy to be fulfilled with hair-splitting accuracy, as it is always done when prophecy is fulfilled.

            I’m marking both of these dates on my calender, and I will be here waiting to see what Watchman has to say when both dates come, and nothing happens.

      • Ady

        Very good, I’m in agreement with you entirely. The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, when it fails to happen will cause a great falling away.

        • The great falling away has already been perfectly fulfilled. there is not one form of organized religion that exists today that is not demonic and is not teaching false doctrines of devils, the pre-trib rapture notion being one of the most notable ones. Arminianism (or Romanism) and Zionism are two other notable cons that have deceived many and for which their teachers will soon endure swift and sure punishment for harming so many others.

    • You will not find the word rapture employed by the Bible. Only being “caught up” or “gathered” to Christ in the clouds. Everything else is man-made false doctrines designed to deceive and mislead spiritual goats into falsely believing that they are spiritual sheep.

      • You will also not find the word “bible” in the Bible….hmm.

  • kiwiwatcher

    Hallelujah. Well done and very timely brother

    • Skywatcher

      Ah, Kiwiwatcher! YOU are very astute! You replied to my comment, “Your posted info from renowned theologian, John F. Walvoord who says “….that this (Rev. 4:1) is not an explicit reference to the rapture of the church…..Though there is no authority for connecting the rapture with this expression, THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A TYPICAL REPRESENTATION OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS, namely, the church age first, then the rapture, then the church in heaven… ”

      I KNEW that last part would grab someone’s attention!

      However, the part that you capitalized does NOT in any way lend credence to Geoffrey’s article. John is merely stating that there is a typical representation to the ORDER of EVENTS, not that John was indeed raptured as Geoff purports! You overlooked, “Though there IS NO AUTHORITY for connecting the rapture with this expression…” It’s all about semantics!

      • kiwiwatcher

        I would say that brother Geoffrey does indeed have the authority to make the call in connecting the rapture (in type) to Rev 4:1. He has furnished his Scriptural references and I would suggest there more. If he is challenged – then I look forward to seeing the Scriptures that disagree with his position. Until then – he should sit in silence.

        You said “John is merely stating that there is a typical representation to the ORDER of EVENTS, not that John was indeed raptured as Geoff purports!”
        Brother Geoffrey made no such claim – “that John was indeed raptured.” Please Skywatcher, you have no need to twist someone’s words.

        For for me. It’s Scriptural….nothing more – nothing less. There is no other way.

        No reliance on Bible college, theories, pies-in-the-sky, anyone’s prophecy bible, scribblings, dribble from new agers, tea-leaf reading, star signs, counting beads, rambling from old men, moons of various color, days following particular feasts, which way my cat stretches, strange websites, crystal ball gazing, favourite TV evangelist…nothing other than an ole Bible and a home Bible study group where yesterday I presented Thessalonians…..produced a post from the notes.

        No reliance on aged writings from theologians either…..your brother Walvoord was so good with his scriptural based writings, he continually had to make updates/editions to correct his errors. So glad the Bible is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8) – think we see the difference.

        To watch as you supported a poster yesterday who cut and pasted from a satanic preacher, and today as you struggled with a ‘dark one’…..methinks, tsk, tsk tsk Skywatcher.

        Meanwhile, I pray that your eyes/heart be opened, and that you can rest easy with newly elected officials. God Bless you.

        • Amen. John was did not experience THE Rapture, rather he experienced it in type. If it would have been THE Rapture, he would not have gone up alone. But I think for all the reasons I point out, John is also a type of the Church. Why is the Church spared the Tribulation? Because 2) we are special as John was special to Jesus, and b). it’s for the Jews not for the Church (Jer 30:7).

          • amigodana

            That is part of your problem Geoffrey Grider. You think the scriptures are about your righteousness and eternal life.

            (John 5:39) “¶ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

            (Isaiah 53:6) “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

            (Romans 3:10-12) “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

      • Again, I never said that John experienced THE Rapture. He didn’t. But he went up in a TYPE of the Rapture, in exactly the same way we all will “go up” when it happens. In John’s Revelation he is an OBSERVER, when we get raptured we will be a PARTICIPANT. Huge difference.

        • Heather

          Amen Brother Geoffrey! The following shows an example of the “type” your talking about.

          Revelation 4:2-3 (KJV)

          2 And IMMEDIATELY I WAS IN SPIRIT: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

          3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

          1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV)

          52 IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

        • Suez

          Now Mr. G, with all respect, that is really reaching with your opinion. The window was opened for John, to ” shew thee things which must be hereafter. Then to write about what he was shewed, nothing more, nothing-less. For you to surmise anything else, is nothing more than adding to the bible! And we know what happens if we add to, or take away from….:(

        • Is the church also going to go back and forth from Heaven to earth as John does? He goes down to earth several times in Revelation. Him being caught in the Spirit is just language to communicate that he’s having a vision, he doesn’t actually go anywhere, nor is he a type of what will happen to the church. The pretrib rapture is not in the Bible.

          • Well, your title fits you. Bad theologian.

          • “Well, your title fits you. Bad theologian.”

            Well, if a theologian in our Laodicean time is someone that promotes lies such as eternel security, OSAS and pre-tribulation rapture, then a “bad theologian” is someone that does NOT promote these lies as you do…

            “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” – Es 5:20

  • Allison Webster

    Although I hope you’re right, I think you’re mistaken. Show me one Bible verse that CLEARLY states something to the effect that “just before the Tribulation, all believers will be caught up into the sky . . . .”

    There is NOTHING. You are plucking various sentences out of context and READING INTO THEM something you wish were to be true.

    The only bible prophecy about believers being caught up is to take place at THE VERY END of the Tribulation period, (Rev 11: 11-15 and echoed in 1 Corinthians 15: 51, 52) moments before Christ returns visibly.
    Christians living during the last 7 years will mostly either be beheaded or will take the Mark of the Beast and die in Hell. It’s just possible that a small contingent will survive the 7 years in a protected place, but they will only be those with TREMENDOUS faith (possibly going into a nuclear contaminated city, where no one, not even the Antichrist and his legions, dares to go).

    Get ready for that scenario, and you will be on the right track.

    • Ummm, did you READ what I say about the people in chapter 5? I don’t think you did because if you did you would see it’s the Church. And not only did I keep everything in context, I also “rightly divided” as commanded to do in 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV).

      • marlene

        I believe you Geoffrey Grider, agree with you and thank you.

        • Skywatcher

          Marlene, you might not want to be so quick to swallow the garbage Geoffrey put out here. Please take a moment to read my comment to him, and to consider the information.

          Bro. Geoffrey, as a Pre-tribulationist, I have NEVER seen such a theologically corrupt piece of manipulation in my entire life! Where did you get this from, Walmart?

          Your “First Rapture” bites the dust before it gets “off the ground”, pun intended! Nowhere in Scripture does it say that these resurrected people ascended up into Heaven by a cloud, a chariot, a Yellow Taxi, etc.! That was a groundless argument for a Pre-Trib Rapture, my dear brother! I expected more from you than that!

          I’ve looked Rev. 4: 1 up in the works of some of the greatest theologians of all time,(John F. Walvoord, Henry C. Thiessen, and Dwight Pentecost) and NOT a single one of them came up with the wildest claims that you did in trying to prove three raptures that you erroneously have done! Oh my! To think…people are actually swallowing this stuff…:(

          I just cannot believe it!

          First of all, one needs to go back to the Greek and understand that the word that we use for “rapture” comes from the Gk. “Harpazo”, meaning “to catch away/up; pluck, pull, take by force”. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, Greek Dictionary of the N. T., pg. 16, # 726.

          Nowhere in Rev. 4: 1 do we see this in relation to the Church. Renowned theologian, John F. Walvoord states, “It is clear from the context that this (Rev. 4:1) is not an explicit reference to the rapture of the church, as John was NOT actually translated; in fact he was still in his natural body on the island of Patmos. He was translated into scenes of heaven only temporarily. Though there is no authority for connecting the rapture with this expression, there does seem to be a typical representation of the order of events, namely, the church age first, then the rapture, then the church in heaven… From a practical standpoint, however, the rapture may be viewed as having already occurred in the scheme of God before the events of chapter 4 and following chapters of Revelation unfold. At the beginning of chapter 4, then, the church may be considered as in heaven and not related to events which will take place on the earth in preparation for Christ’s return (Second Coming/Advent, added) in power and glory.” The Revelation of Jesus Christ, A commentary by John F. Walvoord., 1966, The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, p. 103.

          Geoffrey, you went way out on a limb to concoct this teaching, I’m afraid.

          The only 5 raptures in the Holy Bible are:
          1. Enoch was translated, Gen. 5: 24
          2. Elijah was caught up in a fiery chariot, 2 Kings 2:11
          3. Christ was caught up in a cloud,Acts 1:9
          4. Philip, Acts 8: 39
          5. The Rapture of the Church: John 14: 3; I Thess. 4: 17; I Cor. 15: 50-52.

          If you need a little more help understanding the topic, please feel free to request your FREE copy of, “The Distinctions Between the Rapture and the Second Coming” and “Pre-Trib Rapture vs. Post-Trib. Rapture: scotianprince@eastlink.ca ALL ARE WELCOME TO DO SO! See what the old time theologians had to say about such matters.

          After the length of time it took me to research your material and to type this up, I’m still shaking my head in shock! Not good, my brother. That’s false doctrine of the purest kind.

          Much love, in Christ Jesus,

          • kiwiwatcher

            Greetings Skywatcher

            Most of what I have to say about the matter – was posted earlier. My ‘Blessed Hope’ is something I am quite selfish (gulp) about, and for people to miss the Truth, (especially loved ones) grieves me.

            But with all due respect I have this to add.

            Brother Geoffrey said in his posted message “In Revelation 4, versus one and two, John as A TYPE of the Church is called up to Heaven in a type of the Rapture. What John experienced then is what the apostle Paul says WILL happen for the Church WHEN THE ACTUAL rapture takes place for us:”

            Your posted info from renowned theologian, John F. Walvoord who says “….that this (Rev. 4:1) is not an explicit reference to the rapture of the church…..Though there is no authority for connecting the rapture with this expression, THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A TYPICAL REPRESENTATION OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS, namely, the church age first, then the rapture, then the church in heaven… ”

            J Walvoord and brother Geoffrey are both singing from the same hymn book.

          • carrierwave

            You missed a “rapture”. Revelation 11:11-12 the “Two Witnesses”. Philip was not raptured, or given a glorified body to enter Heaven.

            Your emphasis of “old time theologians” is simply ridiculous. There are a lot of oldtime heretics of the past too, but that does not matter. The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture rests solely on the Word of God not a lot of “old time” traditions of men. When you stop siting the writings of “men” and begin using the KJV, maybe people will listen to you. Until then, happy traditions to you.

          • Amen. It makes me laugh when people say things like “Well, DL Moody never taught that!”. So what difference does that make? DL Moody could never be wrong about anything? Spurgeon was never wrong? John Wesley was never wrong? DL Moody is my personal hero, and an outstanding example of how God can use someone who yields to the Holy Spirit – BUT – he said some wacky things and had to have this “theology” corrected on multiple occasions. Charles Spurgeon, adored by millions to this day, was a CALVINIST! so we have to be very careful when we base our scriptural positions on the “heros of the faith”. They were only men, and they were often wrong. God used them anyway because their hearts were right and they took correction. We should do the same 🙂

          • Don

            Brotherm Geoffrey is 100 percent correct on this. Revelation chapter 19 proves a pre trib rapture also. God does not pace wrath on His people, and dont tell me ths is Satans wrath, go read the first 7 Seals, The Anti0Christ is the First Seal, then you have Earthquakes, and at the end it is called, The Wrath of the Lamb in Revelation chapter 6.

            Also read the Seal that is those under the alter asking when their blood will be revenged, by those that DWELL ON EARTH !! That is a current statement, they want Revenge on those that currently dwell on earth !! Because they were left behind, and became Saints, and had to endure until the end, which became death for them.

            Those are the Saints Satan coms against.

          • Lol….you call me names and rip me to pieces and THEN you sign your comment with “much love in Jesus”. Now THAT is funny….if you had the love of Jesus I am thinking you would be a little nicer.

          • Thomas

            You are very right skywatchers. After much reading and studying I have come to the same conclusion. Everyone just has to realize Geoffrey is just a man and that this wouldn’t be an argument for the ages between much more spirit led people than those on this board.i believe the Devil loves this, wasting our time on pre, mid, and post trib jargon, instead of what we should really be doing. There are people out there so afraid that we Christians may have to endure some persecution, and it’s really really sad.

          • David Whitby

            Me thinks that those Old Testament Saints who rose at Christs death were Ressurected, not raptured. The Emerald rainbow signifies Grace and Mercy for those in Christ who attend the Bema Seat.
            Question, The great crowd who are beheaded for the testamony of Jesus during the tribulation period and are told to wait, Do they get rapuured or ressurected ? I thought the Scripture makes a difference between the living, in an earthly body ( these being able to be raptured if they are in Christ) and those who bodies had died, those who can be ressurected .

          • Suez

            David Whitby, I would agree with you some what. The only saints I seen in Heaven are those who have been martyred. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
            Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
            Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And here: Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
            Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
            Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
            Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
            Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
            Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Notice, it doesn’t say anything about the “raptured saints”, just those who came out of the Great Tribulation!!!
            Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
            Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
            Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Other than that, I don’t see saints in heaven, let alone the “raptured church”! I can be wrong, but, I’ve searched, and just don’t see them. If someone can give me scripture that the Church is there, other than the martyred church saints, and, without adding to the word, please do, I would welcome it! Maybe chapter 19, but I need to study that more yet also…good day! 🙂

      • Cindi Ruiz

        I stand in agreement with you brother. I love all of your posts and I find they give me much knowledge and wisdom….keep em coming!!

      • Suez

        Once AGAIN. Chapter 5. No Church, just: (Rev 5:11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of {many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders): and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;) No Church, it tells who these were if you have the eyes to read it. Many Angels, the beasts, and the elders! Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshiped him that liveth for ever and ever. How come it doesn’t mention the saint from the “church” bowed down and worshiped him?? Because the Church isn’t there, that is why. Once again,,,adding to the word, NOT GOOD! 🙁

    • Skywatcher

      Allison Webster, if you’ll bother to take the time to email me, I’ll gladly send you a complete manuscript proving a Pre-Trib. rapture with 28 reasons. Dr. Jack Van Impe actually gives 38 reasons for a Pre-trib rapture.

      In your comment, you are referring to the Great Tribulation saints ~ people who are saved after the Rapture and during the 7 years of G.Tribulation.

      Email me at: scotianprince@eastlink.ca and I’ll gladly send you or anybody else this very important manuscript for FREE! In it, the Pre-Trib and Post-Trib positions are presented with arguments for and against. You get to choose, based upon sufficient evidence, which camp you need to be in.

      Blessings!

      • KS

        Dr. Jack Van Impe started his ministry with top Luciferian Billy Graham.

        Dr. Jack Van Impe is a Top notch pope-praiser!

        On NATIONAL TV too !

        His JVI study bible has an occult symbol on the front of it too!
        [triskele = 666]

        While waiving the catholic catechism at the tv camera he very emphatically stated, “The pope has been a GREAT INFLUENCE to me!”

        JVI holds 15 Doctorates – Don’t tell me he doesn’t know what he’s doing!

        Also –

        Why is the Luciferian Freemasonry Knights’ Templar symbol on Tim LaHaye’s book? – ‘Left Behind’ series

        tim lahaye luciferian connections:

        Seems Mr. LaHaye likes to release his book series and movie dates on Luciferian holy days for some reason! …

        https://www.google.com/#q=tim+lahey+luciferian+connections

        Why are ALL the Luciferian ‘pastors’, ‘teachers’, etc., promoting
        pre-trib?

        Wake up people !

        • Suez

          KS……AMEN!!!! Nice to see, someone is awake!!!! 🙂

        • Skywatcher

          Perhaps, because it’s in the Bible…where we FIRST heard about it. I dunno…just thinkin’ out loud! Duh!

          I will admit, I’ve had very serious issues about his pope-kissing (for lack of a better term for this site), and I’ve written to him about it. I asked, “Why or how can you call the pope ‘our pope’?

          Guess what kind of a response I got? NONE! On the other hand, I’ve found no fault with his theology, and I do see how he is trying to witness to the R.C. people, to bring them to salvation also.

          Since Francis has replaced God, Jack has been quite “in his face” and non-supportive, to say the least!

          As I get older, I’m realizing that nobody can please everybody all of the time. You learn to eat the meat and to spit out the bones. Throughout all, we must try our best to love with the love of Christ. It’s not always easy, and sometimes the flesh gets in the way.

          I have one of Jack’s prophecy bibles, and when I opened it, my jaw dropped when I looked down at the symbol on the front. However, it is a very common symbol that can be used for many products. I’m not sure that all the producers realize the meaning behind many of the symbols they use. For heaven’s sake…look at how many people use the antichrist sign of the upside-down broken “peace” symbol, thinking it means peace! When I tell them about its significance, they all but laugh me off the planet!

          In summation, I do believe we have to be very careful about pronouncing judgment. After all, Jack invites people to the cross of Calvary, to invite the Lord Jesus Christ into their lives and NOBODY else! Christ said, a house or a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. If Jack was the Luciferian you claim he is, KS, why would Jack be so concerned for people going to a Christ-less eternity? Something here just doesn’t add up. 🙂

          • amigodana

            Maybe he is preaching another jesus?

            (2 Corinthians 11:3-4) “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. {4} For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”

        • Greatman

          Hi KS, i want you to understand that, that pre tribulation thing is a setup trap. Only that i dont know who satan used to create that form of dust.
          But i suspect the catholic religion. KS, just ask urself this simple question. If the saints are taken up, we ll be left with sinners on earth. Why ll a homosexual refuse a mark or chip just to go hungry and get punished, tortured or killed?

          The antichrist is coming purposely for the children of God. the bible says he( the beast) was given power to conquer the saints of God. Who are the saints here, Israel? No, because Israelis are not saints. They have not accepted Christ yet. They ll accept Christ after some have been killed, tortured and subjected to extreme suffering.

          Than man Grider is just being arrogant in defending the indefensible.
          I feel pity for those unsuspecting readers and listeners.

          • Greatman, I applaud you for teaching and speaking the truth concerning the lie and fraud of the pre-trib rapture doctrine of devils. Yet I must caution you on one thing: when the Bible refers to Israel, it is NOT referring to the rogue terrorist state of faux Israel of today which is run by Turko-Mongolian Khazar impostors who are only posing as Jews. Sadly, the majority of the world is badly deceived as to the true demographic identity of these pathological liars and psychopaths who claim to be God’s chosen people, but who in truth, serve Lucifer, the god of the antichrists.

            So who is the Israel to whom the Bible refers in the New Testament? The books of Hebrews and Romans reveals that spiritual Israel is revealed by our faith in Yahushua (Jesus) as the son of YHWH (God). In other words, the Israel of the New Testament is spiritual Israel, as evidenced by those of us who manifest the faith (trust) of Abraham in the promises of God. In other words, the Israel of the New Testament is spiritual Israel who consists of all born again elect followers of Yahushua, the Christ, the Messiah.

            We have been badly deceived by the globalists who claim that they are Jews, and are not, who control all mainstream media sources in America and have been pushing their lies and propaganda at Americans for decades while they have actively suppressed the truth in many spheres of human endeavor in order to discredit the teachings of the Bible in their entirety. End times prophecy at Matthew 24:24 reveals that this would happen and we are there. Let none of God’s elect be surprised by any of this. We are approaching the end of God’s prophetic Biblical timeline. In late 2016, the second coming of Christ and the gathering of Matthew 24:30-31 has to occur with hair-splitting accuracy because eight other end times prophecies, which have already been fulfilled, point to it with hair-splitting accuracy. You can find the list of these eight fulfilled end times prophecies at http://www.awatchmanonethewall.com/other. These are the eagles of Matthew 24:28 which now are gathered, and the fig leaves of Matthew 24:32-33 which now have sprouted.

            The Bible speaks in parables, metaphors, allegories and symbols to God’s elect. Those who read it literally, will be badly deceived, by God’s deliberate intent. Such people are revealing that they do not number among God’s elect. This may not be popular to teach to the non-elect. But it is no less true, just because it offends some people. This is what the Bible says and means.

          • You’ve lost your mind if you think that the Catholic Church promotes the pre-trib rapture! If the Catholic Church did, that would mean:

            1. Purgatory was a lie
            2. Sacraments for salvation was a lie
            3. Mediator Mary was a lie
            4. Salvation soley through “Holy Mother church” was a lie.
            5. Loss of salvation was a lie.

        • 1. You provided no scripture for your accusation.

          2. Why are you following a man? We follow the God’s word. Go by that.

          • Paula Turner

            Sorry to say, Jimmy, it IS a lie. The Catholic Church is a man-made religion, not Christianity. If you followed God’s word, you would not have people confessing to a mere man, nor would you have people trying to work their way to heaven, nor would you have Mary set up above Christ! Read your Bible, don’t listen to the lies propagated by your church.

      • KS

        Left Behind: LaHaye’s Masonic Connections

        by James Whisler [jamesers99@the-onramp.net]

        I have written in the past about the significance of the Left Behind movie’s production date and release dates running simultaneously with the top four Satanic holidays. I have since then calculated the odds of this happening by chance. I will give a quick review first.

        There are 8 primary holidays in witchcraft and Satanism. In the Illuminati they are known as the 8 nights of human sacrifice for obvious reasons. There are four major and four minor ones:

        1) Candlemas or Imbolg — Feb. 1,2- major
        2) Ostara- March 21 (Spring Equinox) – minor
        3) Beltane or Roodmas – May 1 (founding day for the Illuminati in 1776)- major
        4) Litha– June 21 (summer solstice) – minor
        5) Lughnasadh or Lammas- August 1 – major
        6) Mabon- September 21 (autumnal equinox) – minor
        7) Samhain or Hallowe’en- October 29-31 – major
        8) Yule- December 21 (Winter solstice) – minor

        Luciferians seek Satanic blessings by not only performing their jobs in their sacred locations where they believe there are vortexes of occultic power but also seek Satanic blessings by initiating their projects on their Satanic holy days.

        On May 1, 2000, Beltane (major Satanic holiday) they began production on the movie ‘Left Behind’. 13 weeks later on August 1, Lughnasadh (major Satanic holiday) they released the ‘making of Left Behind’ for sale. 13 weeks later on October 31, Samhain (major Satanic holiday) they released the ‘Left Behind’ movie for sale 13 weeks from that date on Feb.2, 2001 Candlemas (major Satanic holiday) they released ‘Left Behind’ into the theaters across the country.
        (see these dates on http://www.upcomingmovies.com/leftbehind.html.)

        The odds that Peter LaLonde hit those four Occultic days by chance with his production and release dates is 1 in 17,458,601,160. Or one in seventeen billion, four hundred fifty-eight million, six hundred and one thousand, one hundred sixty.

        But how could these guys be seeking Satanic blessings? After all, isn’t the movie a great witnessing tool?

        Only if your gospel message is changed to being raptured to avoid the hard times which are coming to this earth.

        • Skywatcher

          KS, you don’t suppose it could’ve been the other way around, do you? Perhaps the Satanic material coincidentally came out the same time as Tim LaHaye’s? There are two sides to that coin.

          For your information, I learned about the Rapture when I was a little boy…over 50 years ago…long BEFORE the LaHayes produced their “Left Behind” series! It’s undeniably as clear as the nose on one’s face. Especially Acts 1: 9!!!

          Now, if you can set aside your cowardice, and do as many on this site have done, and ask for my free information (for and against), taken from my Bible college textbooks, you’ll quickly see that you were duped, along with so many others. Just email me at: scotianprince@eastlink.ca and I’ll gladly FREELY give them to you and then you can really be “armed and dangerous” for the Kingdom!

          Why would a truly born again child of God fear the “Valley of the Shadow of Death (Psa. 23) anyway? We’re not looking for an easy escape, as you wrongly accuse. Our God is able to sustain us, no matter what comes our way. Whether we die for Him or die from cancer, either way, we get to be with Him. Death is a formidable vehicle while the Rapture is a vehicle that is NOT so formidable. It is a wonderful Bible assurance that NOT ALL will have to suffer before going Home.

          Please explain to me what Paul meant when He said, “Then we, which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…” I Thess. 4:17.

          Don’t forget to email for your FREE copy!
          Blessings!

          • James L.

            Skywatcher,

            You’re a disgusting hypocrite!
            It’s people like you that makes this a third rate site.
            If Mr. Grider cared about the character of this site he would kick you and a few others off of it.

    • john evanson

      allison, maybe u should read 2 thes 2:3. it is properly translated in earlier bibles, ” That day will not come until the DEPARTURE occurs then the man of lawlessnes will be revealed. check it out in some early bibles. its the only way thes 2:7&8 makes sense, otherwise they contradickt each other

      • John, The authorized version, the 1611 KJV of the Bible is quite clear in that verse you cite that the second coming of Christ cannot occur until the falling away (of the church of organized religion) occurs, which now already has occurred, and that the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition, a.k.a. the antichrist of these end times shall be revealed. He already has been revealed, although you may not know it or recognize it. The man of lawlessness is a symbol for the synagogue of Satan identified in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 as today’s Khazar impostors posing as Jews who have hijacked our world and stolen Palestine under false pretenses from the Palestinians, its rightful owners.

        Thus BOTH preconditions for Christ’s second coming have now been fulfilled with hair-splitting accuracy. His second coming occurs AFTER the great tribulation ends, as revealed clearly in the words of Matthew 24:29 and 30 if read honestly and with intellectual integrity. We have less than 350 days to go until the great tribulation ends on October 2, 2016. sometime during the 45 day window which follows, the prophecies of Matthew 24:29-31, followed by those of Revelation 19:7-9 HAVE to be fulfilled with hair-splitting accuracy since all prophecy, when fulfilled, is always fulfilled in such a precise manner. the chess pieces and timetable was triggered two and a half years ago on March 22, 2013. Daniel 12:11 tells us how many days the great tribulation days from that start date: 1,290 days, until it ends. Daniel 12:12 tells us how long from that same start date until the blessing date of Revelation 19:9 arrives. The difference between these two day counts is 45 days. this is simple logical deduction from known facts. Any detective worth his salt ought to be able to follow the clues and arrive at these same conclusions.

        Your error starts with using a translation other than the only reliable word-for-word translation into English that we have available to us, namely the 1611 KJV of the Bible. Any other idea-for-idea paraphrase introduces translator bias into the equation. Start with the most solid translation we have and draw your conclusions from an honest and complete reading of THAT version if you are at all interested in discovering the objective and absolute truth. Those who play fast and loose with the truth are of the devil, the father of lies anyway, and are lost causes.

        • cindi ruiz

          Amen…good word brother!

        • Nice get on the Khazar deal. Few understand. I’m not sure I agree with your view of who they are other than the Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 is them, and they have hik=jacked our world and sadly many christians!! Here is the DNA tests from a jewish Johns Hopkins geneticist:

          http://forward.com/news/israel/175912/jews-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta/

          Meanwhile…watch for false teachers:
          http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2014/09/18/false-prophets-and-teachers/

          • Antisemitism takes many forms, thanks for showing me yet another one here. Sad.

          • It is time to dispense with the lie, slander and demonization using the lie of “anti-semitism” which Geoffrey Grinder engages in yet again here.

            Greater than 95% of those claiming to be Jews (a.k.a. Judahites) today are merely Turko-Mongolian Khazar impostors posing as Jews who follow the hideous ands vile demonic teachings of the Babylonian Talmud of orthodox Judaism. This is proven fact, revealed in Arthur Koestler’s 1976 book, “The Thirteenth Tribe,” and supported by recent DNA evidence documented in Texe Marrs’ 2014 book, “DNA Science and the Jewish Bloodline.” The real teachings of orthodox Judaism, which are truly shocking and horrific, are well-documented in Michael Hoffman’s excellent book, “Judaism’s Strange Gods.” The truth is not at all what you have been taught to believe since childhood. We have all been hideously lies to by some very wicked and evil people.

            The historical and demographic facts reveal that the impostors posing as Jews of today have little or no Semitic blood or DNA in them. In truth, those of the white race are the TRUE descendants of the 12 Hebrew tribes of Abraham, Isaac andJacob, descended from the line of Noah’s son, Shem, and are thus the true Semites. As such, anyone seeking to exterminate the white race, as the Khazar impostors posing as Jews most assuredly are are the TRUE anti-Semites.

            If we are going to use this term, let us banish it from our vocabulary altogether or employ it truthfully. Now wouldn’t THAT be a refreshing change?

            Those who misuse this twisted term to abuse and demonize detractors from the psychopath frauds posing as Jews of today are demonizing those of us of the TRUTH. As such, they are doing the work of the devil and have taken on the mark of the beast. After all the first beast of Revelation 13 is a symbol for the Khazar “jewish” Illuminati Freemason Zionist global elite conspiracy and the Talmudic “jews.” Nothing could be more obvious to those of us of the truth: God’s true elect and chosen people: born again followers of Yahushua (Christ).

        • RobiMac

          Come again?! We are NOT in tribulation! Tribulation begins with the opening of the first seal which is when the antichrist comes on the world scene, and no, we will not know who he is. The second seal: peace is taken from the earth and people slay one another. Third seal means the inhabitants of the earth will be paying a full days wage for daily meals. The fourth seal, People will die by war, by famine, by pestilence, and my personal favorite….by beasts of the earth. The animals will finally get their revenge for mankind’s treatment of them.

          Now, are we seeing this occurring in our time? Aside from isolated incidences here and there….NO, we’re not. I believe that when tribulation begins, all the events Revelation speaks of are going to happen in rapid succession and that means that seals 2, 3 and 4 means that people will die by the millions by war, starvation, disease and animal attacks.

          I also believe about the tribulation that the latter half is the Time Of Jacob’s Trouble because it is at the center of tribulation (Rev. 12) that satan is cast out of heaven permanently and thus is very angry.

          Consider what the Bible says about the antichrist. He’s gonna be suave, charismatic, probably gorgeous and most definitely coming with the answers to all the worlds problems and installing a grandiose false peace. Should be interesting to see how this ‘peace’ plays out when the world is dealing with the wrath of Jesus which is the seal and trumpet judgments. Makes you wonder how the globalists plan on their Utopian world after us menacing Christians are gone. Hmm…..the deceivers find they, too are deceived.

          The ‘Utopian world’ will have it much worse in the latter half of the tribulation because they are not only dealing with the wrath of the angry satan, they also have to deal with the bowl judgments……the wrath of God the Father.

          • RobiMac, What you choose to believe and what the bible actually says and means are in conflict with each other. one of you therefore HAS to be in error. Hint: It’s not the Bible which is in error here.

            The start of the great tribulation is signaled by the fulfillment of the prophecy of Matthew 24:15, as Jesus clearly reveals there inland in verse 21. This prophecy was fulfilled both literally and metaphorically on March 22, 2013. Daniel 12:11 reveals that the great tribulation will last 1,290 days (Daniel 12:7 reveals it as a time, times and a half or 3 1/2 years, which is what 1,290 days comes to roughly).

            The breaking of the first four seals of the scroll occurs in heaven not here on earth. The evidence concerning widespread death in the Middle East strongly indicates that most, if not all four seals, have already been broken and are wreaking havoc on earth that is driving millions of Muslim refugees into Europe and North America through senseless wars which the rogue terrorist state off faux Israel and America have deliberately been fomenting. the fact that you personally are not experiencing this sort of havoc proves absolutely nothing. Your lack of empathy of the plight of millions in the Middle East reveals a seriously unloving and uncaring heart, which is not of Christ in the least.

            2 Thessalonians 2:3 tells us that two events must occur before the second coming of Christ can occur, both of which have now been fulfilled: 1) the falling away of all forms of organized religion from the truth of the Bible in its entirety has now occurred, and 2) the man of lawlessness, a.k.a. the first beast of Revelation 13 has now been revealed as the Khazar “jewish” Illuminati Freemasons Zionist global elite conspiracy and the Khazar impostors posing as Jews, whom Christ identifies in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 as the synagogue of Satan (jut another name for the Antichrist of these end times). The personages appearing in end times Bible prophecy are symbols for groups of people, not of individuals per se. The Book of Revelation can only be properly understood by grasping the use of parables, allegories, symbolism and metaphors, rather than reading it literally, just as Jesus taught in parables during His ministry on earth.

            March 22, 213 + 1,290 days = October 2, 2016 when the great tribulation ends.

            March 22, 2013 + 1,335 days (from Daniel 12:12) = November 16, 2016 when the blessing date of Revelation 19:9 arrives.

            Between these two dates, separated by 45 days, the prophecies of Matthew 24;29-31, followed by those of Revelation 19:7-9 have to occur for prophecy to be fulfilled with hair-splitting accuracy, as it is always done when prophecy is fulfilled.

            After this latter date, all hell breaks loose on the earth dwellers who remain left behind in the gathering of Matthew 24:30-31, which is described in the latter half of Revelation 6 and all of chapter 7. After this is when the 7 bowl judgments, followed by the 7 vial judgments are poured out upon the wicked earth dwellers who remain over a time period which will consume a minimum of 18 months, as two clues from the book of Revelation reveals to those who are reading it carefully.

            What I have outlines here is what the Bible SAYS and MEANS. Making things up and taking events out of the context in which its divine author obviously intended, as you have done here, is disruptive, confusing and not helpful.

            By the way, your reference to the passage in Revelation 12 is in error as well. That chapter describes a flashback to the dawn of the earth in which Lucifer (Satan) rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels (who became demons) to earth, where Satan has been wreaking his havoc for the last 6,000 years. Christ defeated Satan on the cross 2,000 years ago and bound him for a figurative (not literal) 1,000 years in the bottomless pit, but for these years of the great tribulation, Satan has been loosed to play havoc with mankind for a little while before God destroys Satan’s army and throws him into the burning lake of fire and brimstone where the first beast and false prophet will be thrown before him.

          • Skywatcher

            RobiMac, that was an excellent presentation! Right on! The Antichrist could come to power tonight, and most Canadians wouldn’t notice! They’re too busy chasing around some silly Blue Jays! It never fails to fascinate me how so many can be a fan(atic) for a ball game that they have no vested interest in, that will not make any change in their life one little bit, and yet, we’re the weird fanatics for loving the Lord!

      • Skywatcher

        Good to hear from you, John. WOW is partially correct when he makes the following statement:

        “Thus BOTH preconditions for Christ’s second coming have now been fulfilled with hair-splitting accuracy.”

        The above statement is totally incorrect, as you now have the information to confirm what I’m telling you here! The Church has NOT yet been removed from the earth…so she can come back WITH Him at the Second Coming!

        “His second coming occurs AFTER the great tribulation ends, as revealed clearly in the words of Matthew 24:29 and 30 if read honestly and with intellectual integrity.”

        This part is 100% correct! I must give WOW credit where it is due! As a SDA, he doesn’t yet realize that the Second Coming is a two-fold event!

        Part 1 is the Rapture of the Church, wherein Christ comes to “receive you” (the Church) unto Himself: I Thess. 4: 17.

        Part 2 is the Second Coming, wherein, Christ brings back WITH Him, the Church! See the difference? You will!

        Nothing can deceive unless it bears a plausible resemblance to reality.
        C. S. Lewis

      • Skywatcher

        John, I forgot to mention in my last post to you, and to all others…watch out! This guy (WOW) is a date-setter! Christ strongly warned His flock to beware of such chicanery! He said, “No man knoweth the day or the hour”.

        Which calendar is this person using? Gregorian or the Jewish calendar? There is a huge difference! A Jewish year has 360 days, while ours (as you know) has 365. Is WOW taking this into consideration? Lots to consider and I’m not going to waste my time gleaning the rest of his posts!

    • The Apostle Paul specifically says that the dead IN CHRIST rise FIRST (1 Thess 4:16 KJV)

      You want CLEAR scripture. Show me the dead IN CHRIST being raised FIRST in Matt ANYWHERE in the gospels.

    • jaytee

      writer of this article is always so full of himself. hey grider why are you so scared of the tribulation when we were all made for this time for a reason. god hasnt taught you to be such a coward and a fool. what are you gonna do when you realise your here for the long haul, get angry with god for carrying out his plan?

      • The writer of this article follows the herd of all forms of false religion. Objective truth, discerned from a simple and honest reading of the verses Matthew 24:29-31 with integrity, is of no interest to him. The fraudulent notion of a pre-trib rapture has misled and deceived many spiritual goats (the non-elect) into believing that they can be saved without enduring hardship, affliction and trials (tribulations), in spite of the fact that Christ Himself told us, “in this world ye shall have tribulations, but take heart, I have overcome the world.” Yet these charlatans conveniently ignore any data that might conflict with their religious charade and con job.

        Were these charlatans of false doctrine listening? No they were not. Because these words don’t pertain to them and they know it at some deep spiritual level.

        The pre-trib rapture lie appeals to the flesh. That’s why it has been so successful – with the wicked and the foolish. It keeps lost spiritual goats in church pews and seats believing they are saved when they clearly are not, and so they keep putting money in the offering plates to keep feeding the money machine of “big business” organized religion that has gone totally apostate and serves the devil, the father of lies. Meanwhile, the spiritually blind goats keep mouthing pious words that make them SOUND so godly and righteous, while their very attacks against those of us who teach the truth concerning their little fraud schemes reveal their true characters to be seriously deficient, deprave and quite demonic. But let’s not a little hypocrisy get in the way of a good scam and con job, shall we?

        These same religious frauds HAVE to vigorously deny that we are now living in the final year of the great tribulation, as we clearly are. If they didn’t do so, their whole house of cards and doctrine of devils would come tumbling down around their ears and they’d all be out of a job. How tragic would THAT be?!? Hell, they might even find themselves getting lynched for harming and misleading so many innocent people. And yet they have the audacity to claim that they are loving people! They are hateful, wicked and vile people who suffer from intense pride and arrogance mingled with Biblical ignorance and total dishonesty. They make the devil proud.

    • John

      Everybody will see HIM also the one who pierced HIM? How will you see Him in a twinkling of an eye and the point is the one who pierced HIM (ressurrected death unbeliever ) left behind??? Make no sense!

  • kelly

    Dude please obey Jesus command in acts 2:38 THEN you will RECIEVE spirit of truth and you can then stop preaching this false doctrine. Revelation 20 very very very clearly says this is THE FIRST RESSURECTION! There are no 3 or 20 or anything else. AND it will not happen till saints beheaded and reject image Mark of beast! You cannot get around this scripture. Nor can you get around acts 2:38 nor acts 19.you are causing people to stumble and lose faith when they are not recaptured before Mark. To those that have been deluded by this false preacher please Google ken raggio Bible lessons. And you will hear truth from Holy Ghost filled preacher of truth. God bless you and have a nice day

    • Dude, Acts 2:38 never saved ANYONE. If you have cancer and it goes into “remission” are you CURED? No, you are not. Remission means you still have cancer but it’s inactive. Following Acts 2:38 for the “remission of sins” does not pay for those sins, it only holds them in abeyance. What SAVES you is Ephesians 2:8,9, which reads as follows:

      “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV)

      That’s New Testament salvation for the Church, and baptism has NOTHING to do with it.

      • I beg your pardon Geoffery Peter’s preaching and Acts 2:38 added around 3,000 souls to the church that day! Looks to me like your picking and choosing!

        • In Acts 2:38, Peter is specifically addressing the nation of Israel about killing their Messiah. Peter is not addressing the body of Christ.

          If you believe Acts 2:38 for the plan of salvation TODAY, you’ll simply waterslide your way into Hell.

      • amigodana

        Geoffrey Grider, Is it not all of the Word of God that saves?

        (2 Timothy 3:16-17) “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: {17} That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

        Where does the bible say that there is any other way to be saved other than just believing ALL the Word (not your words)?

        (Acts 16:31) “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

        (Acts 4:12) “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

        Who is Jesus?

        (John 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

        (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

        What is His Name?

        Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

        So I would say that YES; Acts 2:38 has saved people, along with ALL the other scriptures (The Word, if you believe, saves)!

        • No, Acts 2:38 included baptism as part of your salvation, and that is NOT how Paul says people are saved in the Church Age. Acts 16:31 is very different from Acts 2:28, they are not the same.

          • amigodana

            So you are saying that you don’t believe God?

            They are the same, the Word is God!

            (John 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

            (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

          • David Coker

            Amen! Some people still do not know how to rightly divide their Bible! Different parts of the Bible are meant for different people (Jews vs Gentiles, Law vs New testament) and until you understand that fact one will be confused with contradictions. The whole Bible was written for us, but only part of it to us! Once you learn how to rightly divide your Bible, all the pieces just fall into place.

          • Bruce

            Did the Thief on the cross have time to come down and be baptized to be saved as part of his salvation?

            And the word Believe? Hummm? That is a word that is open ended. What does believe mean?

            At the Judgment Seat of Christ for (All Believers)some will say the following words as noted in Mat 7:22

            Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
            Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
            Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

            It appears they believed in Him and they did works in His Name. But they never established the Relationship.

            The Bride of Christ needs to spend more time praying for the lost then debating back and forth between so called Christians. It is a Simple Message of Love!

            Stop biting and fighting each other about your opinions of the word and spend more time witnessing to the lost, the sick, the hurting. Give hope to hopeless and hurting, give love to those who need it and lift up each other instead of tearing each other down.

            Jesus is coming soon for a Bride without spot or wrinkle.

            In what state will you be found when He comes?
            We have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

            Shalom

  • Oh how sad! Yet another professed Christian reveals here that he is unable to read end times prophecy without twisting it and contorting it to try to force it to say that which he wants it to say, rather than what it clearly does say.

    The notion of a pre-trib rapture is a total fraud. First, the Bible never employs the term “rapture,” but it refers to the event described as the gathering or catching up of God’s elect in the first resurrection in Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and alluded to in Revelation 6 and 7 obliquely. Second, Matthew 24:15-31 clearly spells out the sequence of events. Matthew 24:15-28 describes the time of the great tribulation. All of God’s elect shall experience tribulation both Jesus and Paul tell us. Tribulation is not the same thing as God’s wrath poured out upon the wicked, which many false-teaching pastors promote and claim. They lie. Matthew 24:29 tells us that “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days described in Matthew 25:15-28, four celestial events will occur described in this verse. finally, Verse 30 begins, “AND THEN,” also revealing that what is described as the gathering in verses 30 and 31 FOLLOWED the four celestial events of verse 29 which FOLLOWS the great tribulation. Hence, the bible clearly reveals the gathering of god’s elect to be a POST-TRIBULATION gathering.

    No amount of twisting God’s words and adding superfluous interpretation and wishful thinking will change this objective, Biblical truth. The pre-trib rapture notion has been with mankind since at least the mid-1800s as a fraud and doctrine of devils (see 1 timothy 4:1) to deceive the naive and the gullible masses of the non-elect into believing that you can be a true follower of Christ without experiencing the hatred of the world and tribulation (meaning trials). Christ tells us just the opposite of this; as does the Apostle Paul. The false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture fills all forms of organized religion today with self-deceived people who believe they are saved and will get raptured out of here before the proverbial poop hits the fan, but that just aint’ so. But it keeps the deceived non-elect spiritual goats coming back every Sunday for feel good messages that are lies and inducing them to put more tithes and offerings in the money plates to feed the big business engine of false religion. It’s really quite the scam and con job and no one does it better than all forms of IRS 501(c)3 organized religion, which is an abomination to God. They are the harlot churches spawned by the Roman Catholic Church, Mystery, Babylon the Great and Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth of Revelation 17 and 18. Revelation 18:4 warns us what to do in response to this utter fraud:

    “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

    Let the wise understand. The wicked never will. Daniel 12:10 assures us of this. We live in the most deceiving time in all of world history. Matthew 24:21 & 24 reveal this to the elect. The rest of the world remains totally clueless to this objective reality, just as the Bible predicts they would. Imagine that.

    Do not be fooled by charlatans and false teachers. Read God’s word for yourself. if you have God’s Holy Spirit in you, He will guide you in spirit and in truth to the intent of the Bible’s divine author. If you lack the Holy Spirit in you, God’s word will never make coherent sense to you. It’s no more complicated than this. don’;t let seminary-trained snake oil salesman posing as theologians and pastors deceive you. You are4 responsible for your own salvation and walk with God. Get all human filters between you and God out of the way and read His word directly for yourself.

    • For all your many words, you didn’t address ONE single point I raised from the Bible. Not one. Why not? Who is the group in Revelation 5 singing the “new song”? Answer me that….

      • Suez

        Mr. G. Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.
        I think by scripture it would be lots of Angels, the beasts and the elders, just as it states. That is without adding to it of coarse!!! 🙂 I don’t see anything about the bride, or the Church there. 🙂

        • Here is the clue: “…and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood”. There is only ONE group that has been “redeemed by His blood”. That’s the Church. God did not redeem angels with His blood, when they fell they stayed fallen. God did not redeem anyone in the Old Testament by His Blood, they were kept safe by the works they did combined with faith, and they had to wait in Abraham’s Bosom to be let out after Jesus went to the cross. But that is not the same as being redeemed by His blood. When a Christian dies, we go STRAIGHT to Heaven, with no stops or waiting periods in between. And in the Tribulation, they will not be redeemed by His blood, it will be faith + works like it was in the Old Testament. Hope that helps!

          • James Staten

            Amen, Geoffrey!!!

          • Geoffrey, You are continuing to teach further errors here. Only the elect will participate in the first resurrection, namely the gathering described in Matthew 24;30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, as Matthew 24:31 states quite plainly. No where does the Bible teach faith + works will save anyone. Only grace does, as Romans 9:16 and Ephesians 2:1 and 2:8-9 teach quite succinctly. What part of:

            “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves (no “free will” works allowed here) ; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast,”

            do you NOT GET?

            “As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:9

            You, Geoffrey, are teaching and preaching a gospel other than the one that we have received from God’s word, the Bible. As such, you are treading on very thin ice. I suggest you confess and repent of your errors, while time remains for you to still do so. For that time is now quite short.

    • Skywatcher

      Watchman on the Wall, your posturing here is as ridiculous as Bro. Geoffrey’s article is! You’ve been seriously duped as have the readers of this article.

      The Rapture is a biblical doctrine that goes back as far as Enoch and Elijah! I do believe he lived well before Darby, etc.! 🙂 Christ even spoke of such in John 14: 3: “I will come again and RECEIVE you unto myself.” To receive somebody is different than bringing them back with them…as Christ does in the Second Coming. If you want to know the truth about a pre or post-rapture, email me at:

      scotianprince@eastlink.ca and I’ll send you a FREE manuscript that looks at these positions in great detail, backed up with Scripture! After carefully considering the evidence, one can wisely determine which camp they should fit into. I’ll warn you and others in advance…

      There are only three or four arguments for a post-trib. rapture that do NOT hold water, and I present 28 arguments for a Pre-trib rapture that cannot be disputed!

      Feel free to ask at the same time for a scholarly paper showing the distinctions between the Rapture and the Second Coming! All is supported with Scripture…indisputable Scripture: scotianprince@eastlink.ca

      • SW, I have already written and published a 496 page book proving that we are in the final year of the great tribulation beyond a shadow of a doubt and my evidence and analysis is rigorously researched and documented from Scripture and other reliable secular sources. I am not yet gathered to Christ, as prophesied in Matthew 24:30-31. Ergo, the pre-trib gathering notion is a hoax and a fraud, using simple logical reasoning from known facts to arrive at this simple conclusion. The words of Scripture in Matthew 24:29-31 from the KJV cannot be read with honesty and intellectual integrity and arrive at any other conclusion either.

        I really have no interest in reading yet another deceived charlatan’s tract trying to twist the words of Scripture to say something other than what they clearly say and mean. I have invested more than sufficient time investigating such twisted analyses in the past and I’m done even tolerating the notion of ignoring or dismissing what Scripture clearly says on this matter which I have researched thoroughly and I have the background of an accomplished scholar to make sense out of. This is not rocket science. It is simple reading comprehension of English words from the KJV of the Bible, applying recent world events to events predicted in the Bible for thousands of years to arrive at my simple conclusions documented thoroughly in my book which I have taken the time to write and publish for the benefit of others who number among the elect.

        The bottom line is that anyone believing the pre-trib rapture notion is seriously deceived. Matthew 24:24 tells us that everyone will be deceived except the elect during these days of the great tribulation. You are deceived. I am not. The implications are rather ominous for you. I’m sorry to have to be the messenger telling you this hard truth, but sacrificial love for my fellow man compels me to tell you the danger you are facing. What you choose to do with my warning is entirely up to you and to God. My job is done.

        • Skywatcher

          WOW, I couldn’t really care less if you wrote a thousand books on the subject. You VERY obviously DID NOT do your due diligence! You cannot and must not make any judgments based upon one Scripture you cite in Mt. 24.

          If you weren’t a coward, you’d at least ask to look at the Biblical proofs for such claims and then let people know if I’m really a “charlatan” and a “deceiver”! All you’re doing now is flapping your spiritually toothless SDA gums, without any proof. You’re the “blind leading the blind” and YOU my friend, will be held accountable to Almighty God.

          Folks, DO NOT be fooled by words that give no Scriptural support of ANY subject!

          In Christ’s eternal love…

          • SW, I dare say I have the chops and the academic accomplishments to leave you in the dust intellectually and in terms of honesty and integrity. But I will not waste my time revealing my full accomplishments and credentials to you. The integrity and soundness of all that I teach speaks for itself and is FULLY backed by the words of Scripture.

            You cannot draw any valid conclusions concerning Biblical matters by intentionally ignoring inconvenient verses I cite in Matthew 24 that might contradict your flawed thesis. To do such a thing is to imply that not all of God’s word is flawless, pure, infallible and inspired. it all is. 2 timothy 3:16 says this very thing. If you choose to play God and play fast and loose with which verses you choose to believe and which you do not, this discussion is over as far as i am concerned. I will not debate with someone who refuses to contend for the faith earnestly and with absolute honesty and integrity.

            You made an unsupported an dead wrong claim above following the word “folks.” That is a bald-faced lie. You owe me an apology for slandering me and bearing false witness against me. Please explain to the rest of us how doing such a thing is NOT sinful and how it is in the least bit loving or truthful or honoring to YHWH (God)? Is it none of those things. Now you have some serious explaining to do. Your own witness here makes a mockery of the gospel of Christ. so much for your being a faithful ambassador for Christ.

          • amigodana

            Both of you, Watchman on the Wall and Skywatcher are funny!!! You both are so high up on your own high horses, pronouncing how great each of your books or manuscripts are and which one has the truth. Gods Word is the truth and both of you are VAIN!!

            Job 15:31 Let not him that is deceived trust in vanity: for vanity shall be his recompence.

            Job 35:13 Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it.

            Psalms 4:2 O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.

            Psalms 12:2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

            Psalms 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

            Ecclesiastes 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

        • Skywatcher

          WOW, you my friend, are a liar,a deceiver, and a coward! There’s your apology! You say, “SW, I have already written and published a 496 page book proving that we are in the final year of the great tribulation beyond a shadow of a doubt and my evidence and analysis is rigorously researched and documented from Scripture and other reliable secular sources.”

          And yet, you cannot give ONE single piece of evidence to substantiate your argument… for all here to see! You’re to be most pitied!

          I seriously doubt you have a single credential to your name, or you’d share some of that scholarly wisdom with the rest of us, instead of attacking the character of people you don’t even know. A man with all your intelligence and experience should try to lay out a well-documented condensed form of argument, but you don’t, Mister! I’m offering my evidence to the whole world! I don’t boast about having credentials any more than Jesus did!

          Your warning is NOT from God, and it neither concerns nor frightens me! You’re spitting feathers for the enemy…

          You’re of your father the devil, and you don’t need to worry about my testimony for Christ! Even He used such strong language as this. Feel free to leave this site any time, Troll!

          • Matt

            Amazing how he says we’re in the Tribulation, isn’t it? And apparantly it ends next year in October?

            Huh. I guess I missed the two witnesses dying and being resurrected, the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, the abomination of desolation, stars falling from heaven, a 1/3 of mankind dying, rivers of blood, etc. You’d think all that would be in the news by now, seeing how far we apparantly are into the Tribulation. Guess God got it wrong…

          • Going to check my front lawn for 100lb hailstones dripping with blood and on fire….BRB! (rolling my eyes)

          • Slayden

            After reading through all the comments on about arguing with whos doctrine is correct about pre trib vs post trib rapture ive just lost all hope for humanity.

          • Heather

            Matt & Geoffrey, Amen and Lol!!!!!! Excellent!

        • amigodana

          Both of you, Watchman on the Wall and Skywatcher are funny!!! You both are so high up on your own high horses, pronouncing how great each of your books or manuscripts are and which one has the truth. Gods Word is the truth and both of you are VAIN!!

          Job 15:31 Let not him that is deceived trust in vanity: for vanity shall be his recompence.

          Job 35:13 Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it.

          Psalms 4:2 O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.

          Psalms 12:2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

          Psalms 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

          Ecclesiastes 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

          • Objective truth and rightly dividing God’s word of truth have nothing to do with vanity.

            Moreover, it takes no intelligence or insight to quote Scriptures that are irrelevant and out of context. Just foolishness.

            Scripture is crystal clear to those of the truth with any integrity: the pre-trib rapture notion is a total fraud designed to deceive the naive, the gullible and the lazy. it has fooled many.

          • amigodana

            For your information I don’t believe the scriptures say anything of a “rapture” or even a ” 7 year tribulation”.

            And since you can’t put 2 and 2 together, I will spell it out.

            The fact that you are declaring your words as more important than Gods Word is Vanity! That is the context!

            But since you are so far up in the clouds, its no wonder you assumed to much.

        • Robert Veklotz

          With apologies to Carly Simon,

          You’re so vain, you probably think the Bible’s about you.
          You’re so vain, you probably think the Bible’s about you.
          Don’t you! Don’t you!

          • Wendy

            ****WATCHMAN:
            Wasn’t it GOD who gave you your great intelligence and all else you mentioned and more??
            Seems to me that He would want you to thank Him and praise Him for that. He will not share His glory with anyone. Perhaps you were not aware of how you are sounding, you are coming off like all your wonderful gifts are of your own making.
            Humility and gratitude are lacking from your posts.

            With love in Christ~

        • Heather

          False Watchman, you spew all this, “We are living in the last year of the Great Tribulation”, out of your mouth, but you won’t answer one of many simple prophecys from the word of God.

          What happened to the Two Witnesses? The Word of God shows they will prophesy for One thousand two hundred and threescore days. I guess we missed it right???????

          • Heather, if you had any integrity at all you would have read my book which answers all these questions and many more.n yet clearly you lack the honesty and integrity to do such a thing, this proving that you are of the lie and serve the father of lies, the devil. No real surprises there.

            The Two Witnesses are symbols for those of us who are true descendants from the two candlesticks, representing the 10 Hebrew tribes of the northern kingdom of post-Solomon Israel, and the 2 Hebrew tribes of the southern kingdom of post-Solomon Judaea. The Bible speaks to God’s true elect in parables, symbols, metaphors and allegories and is thus unintelligible to those who are not capable of grasping such literary concepts as these. The Bible is silent on how many individual people make up there groups of witnesses. All i know is that I am part of one of these two groups of descendants of the 12 Hebrew tribes. I know this because I am Caucasian and a true prophet and watchman on the we all of the living YHWH. Those of us of the white or Caucasian race are the true des pendants of the 12 Hebrew tribes, no named because our ancestors migrated through the Caucasus mountain range around 500 B.C. from the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles to migrate into northern Europe from which some of our ancestors later migrated to North America.

            And for your information, I have been teaching God’s messages of truth since before March 22, 2013, when the great tribulation began, as Matthew 24:15 & 21 reveal against the event that fulfilled the prophecy of Matthew 24;15 both literally and metaphorically on that date. My 1,260 days of serving as God’s messenger are not yet over. But over 950 of those days have already passed. The great tribulation will last 1,290 days, as revealed by Daniel 12:11. From these facts, simple mathematical deduction leads the wise to deduce that it will end on October 2, 2016 and my witness must then end on September 2, 2016. God’s word never lies.

            So did you miss those 950 days that have already passed? Apparently you did. Apparently you are not one of God’s elect who were meant to “get it” even though the truth i9s staring you right in the face. Your ungodly sarcasm here seems to support that likely conclusion.

            “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6 Humble you ain’t. where you’ve chosen to be is a very dangerous place to remain. it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God. And believe me, He is very angry right now. You’ll see soon enough.

          • Heather

            False Watchman, you call that a scriptural answer in reference to the Two Witnesses? Also calling your arrogant self one of the Two Witnesses? You yourself are are teaching babble talk from the synagogue of Satan! You are a liar from the pit of hell.You are darkness and your rotten fruit shows there is NO truth in you. In fact all the stupidity you put out there doesn’t even deserve a response.

            Romans 16:17-18
            17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them.

            18 For they that are such, serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, BUT THEIR OWN BELLY; and by good words and fair SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE.

            You do NOT deceive us!

    • RobiMac

      All’s I can say to that mini essay is if you truly know Jesus, you’re just gonna have to be surprised.

    • Heather

      … Wherefore we declare unto you from the Word of the Lord, touching these false prophets, who shall do so much mischief:

      1. That they shall not proceed, or come forth from among the Jews, or Turks, or out of the barbarous Nations, they shall arise out of such as are called Christians.

      2. Seeing amongst the Christians some are openly profane and evil, others seem to be religious and godly, the false prophets shall be found among the better sort; and therefore, saith Christ, they shall come in “sheeps clothing”, as if they were of Christ’s own flock: And Paul saith “They have a form of Godliness”, that is, they shall be painted over gloriously, with all appearances of Truth, righteousness, honesty, goodness and all the names of godliness.

      3. Seeing amongst those that seem to be the better sort of Christians, some give themselves to the ministry of the Word, and some do not; the false prophets shall be found among those Christians, who take upon themselves to be preachers, as Paul testifies (Acts 20) where having called together the elders and teachers of the church of Ephesus, he saith to them, “Ex vobis ipsis; Out of your ownselves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them”.

      And seeing among those who are ministers, some are light, and vain, and carnal, and formal persons; and other men of great worth and reputation, and seem to be precious members of Christ, and even pillars in the Church, so that the common people think, that all religion would go down with such good men; they having some gifts and enlightenings of the spirit, and seeming more than ordinarily godly, religious, wise, holy, sober, devout; now the false prophets shall be found among these.

      And as they who opposed Christ at his first coming in the flesh, seem more wise, and holy, and eminent in the Church than the rest, as the Scribes and Pharisees, who sat in Moses’ chair, and had the outward letter of the Word in all exactness, and the outward form of religion in all strictness; so they, who do, and shall most oppose Christ in His coming in His Spirit, and shall contradict His Word, and resist His servants and witnesses of His Truth, do, and shall appear more wise, holy, learned, and godly, than the rest of the teachers in the Church.

      And thus you see, that the false prophets of Anti-christ shall arise among Christians; and among such Christians as seem to be godly; and among such seeming godly Christians as preach the Word; and among such preachers of the Word as seem to be of greater worth and eminency than the rest: and so in all these regards it will be a hard matter to discern them.

      4. Again, such persons, of such appearance and worth and holiness as these, do usually get to their side the greatest and highest persons in the kingdoms and nations, and do obtain, not only their countenance and favour, but also their power and authority for themselves.

      5. By both these means (viz. their seeming holiness, and their interest with worldy powers) they exceedingly enlarge their credit and reputation with the world, and do get multitudes of people and nations to entertain them.

      For Anti-christ could not decieve the world with a company of foolish, weak, ignorant, prophane, contemptable persons, but he always hath the greatest, the wisest, holiest, and most eminent in the visible church for him, and by these he seduces and subjects to himself, even the whole world. …

      http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thetrialofspirits.html

      Just wanted to share what Bro Nick posted on a different article.

  • Jessica

    Pre-trib rapture is correct.
    To Allison: try looking up and reading about a Jewish wedding feast. The groom leaves for a while to build his bride a home. When his dad says now you can go get your bride. The groom does so. There is no place in a jewish wedding feast that the groom goes away and then allows his bride to be beaten and tortured.
    The Bible says the church is His bride. He is our groom and He is coming back for us soon in a pre-trib rapture.
    Praise the Lord!

    • cindi ruiz

      Amen sis!!

    • Jessica, if you are praising a lord of the pre-trib rapture, it sure ain’t praising YHWH or Yahsuhua (God and Jesus) of the KJV of the Bible. As such, you are worshipping a false Christ (a demon) which Matthew 24:24 warns the elect would become commonplace in these final days of the great tribulation in which we are now living.

      If you are truly a follower of Yahushua, the one true Christ, why are you disobeying His commandment at 1 Timothy 2:11-15? Yahsushua tells us that to know him is to love Him and that to love Him is to keep His commandments. Which ones? All of them. Not just the ones which don’t offend you. As a woman, Paul and God command you not to teach and this passage explains why. Paul’s words are no less true today than they were when Paul first wrote these words.

      To add insult to injury, you are affirming here a false doctrine, something that 1 Timothy 4:1 refers to as a doctrine of devils. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 predicts that many would reject the truth and embrace fables such as the pre-trib rapture notion in these last days, so no one ought to be at all surprised by this. But apparently no one has sacrificially loved you sufficiently to tell you the truth and warn you of your multiple errors. I now have. what you do with this is entirely up to you and to YHWH, the one true God of the Bible, in its entirety.

      • Well, now, you FINALLY dropped your mask and have shown us who you are – you are a HEBREW ROOTS CULT MEMBER. Only someone in the HRM would use a phrase like “If you are truly a follower of Yahushua”.

        For more information on the Hebrew Roots Cult, please read this: http://nowtheendbegins.com/writers/GG/the-hebrew-roots-cult.htm

        • Heather

          Actually Geoffrey, I believe he is into a mix of things including Buddhism.

        • When you are demolished in your lies and teaching doctrines of devils you wicked fools must resort to vilification and demonization of your opponent who has a commanding mastery of Biblical truth.

          Arminianism or Romanism, pre-tribulation rapture and Zionism capture three of the ob most blatant cons Geoffrey Grinder teaches here to deceive the naive, gullible and lazy spirit goats who lack the Holy Spirit and who thus are unable to make any sense out of the Bible. These three false doctrines make up the “Distinctives” of Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel cult that has been thoroughly exposed already.

          The moral to this story is that there is nothing new under the sun. Beware of false teachers posing as angels of light!

          YHWH has spoken. Let the wise understand.

        • The simple truth from God’s word, the 1611 KJV of the Bible is SO inconvenient to wicked fools and false teachers such as Geoffrey Grinder. So he engages in bearing false witness against anyone who dares to teach the truth and bring correction to his multiple lies. It would be funny, if he wasn’t deceiving so many and keeping them on the road to hell we are all born into. His witness here truly makes a mockery of the teachings and example of Yahushua, the Christ of the KJV of the Bible. This should be obvious to all, but Satan has blinded many.

  • LibertysSon

    God is the same yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. All through Scripture he removes his elect before he brings Judgment. Noah and his family were saved by the Ark. Lot and his family were removed form Sodom before the destruction. So it shall be before the terrible days of Judgement called the Tribulation.
    You see, there are actually 2 comings. First secretly in the clouds, as Paul noted,to gather up the Church before judgement. That day ends what we know as the “Church Age”.
    Then at the end of the Tribulation comes the “Day of the Lord” when Christ comes and saves Israel from total destruction as it is surrounded by it’s enemies.

    According to scripture, he Messiah must enter the East Gate of Jerusalem. That gate was bricked shut by the Romans in 70 AD and remains so to this day. However, when the Lord’s feet touch down on the Mount of Olives a tremendous earthquake will split the East Gate open and the Messiah will enter Jerusalem Triumphant, as was prophesied, through the east gate.

    All the Jews praying at the Wailing Wall for salvation for Israel will run to meet the Messiah and fall at his feet in adoration. Then as He opens His hands and shows his wounds,they will believe and be saved!

  • Walter Mintz

    “So in effect we are a 2,000 year comma inserted in between the sandwich of Israel lost and Israel redeemed.”

    Daniel 9:24 – 27 KJV

    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

  • marlene

    I walk with Jesus and love the Lord, but feel that the bible is a Book of IFS – IF eve, IF sarah, IF Stephen,IF ONLY…. Neverthless, this article does go to the debate on when the rapture will occur and I’ve always believed in pre-trib. Thanks.

    • cindi ruiz

      Amen sis…I’m with you….
      There is way too much religious debate going on in here. It’s true that “no man knoweth the day nor the hour” as Jesus Himself told us, Therefore all of this quibble is But religious options and interpretations

  • “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given me I should lose nothing, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP AT THE LAST DAY.” John 6:39

    “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life, and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.” John 6:40

    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.” John 6:44

    “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY. John 6:54

    “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took THEM ALL AWAY, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matt. 24:37-39

    “”Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and DESTROYED THEM ALL.” Luke 17:28-29

  • Jon

    I just don’t understand why anyone would minister a pretrib message so emphatically when the ramifications of being incorrect could destroy so many lives. Let’s just say for a moment that pre tribulation is incorrect (and I do believe it is) how many Christians of today that are being taught Pre tribulation will turn from Christ when the tribulation actually begins because they were taught to believe God will take them before hand? How many life’s will you destroy, because you just want to believe in Pre tribulation (to the point of argument and anger) rather than just teach people that they need to be ready when ever God returns? And yes we may/will be faced with going through the tribulation. Christians around the world are already, daily going through tribulation and death. I believe your teaching is just a spoiled bunch of North Americans with a “Not Us” belief.

    I also believe those that teach Pre tribulation, should be afraid of what they face when so many of those they teach, fall away (including themselfs) because of their teaching? Sorry! There is only ONE LAST TRUMP!

    In Christ
    Jon

    • Jon, You are largely right in your theology with respect to the error of the pre-trib rapture notion. However, do not mistake someone rejecting the faith when they discover that this doctrine of devils is false as having been wronged. Such people were never predestinated by God to become one of His born again adopted sons or daughters in the first place or they would not turn. Those who number among God’s true elect, chosen by God since before the world began, whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life will not turn away from the true faith. Not one of the spiritual sheep God has given Yahushua (Jesus) will be lost.

      Having said this, anyone teaching the doctrine of devils of the pre-trib rapture will discover a swift and sure punishment in the end. God’s word promises us that this will apply to all false teachers who mislead others. Justice will be done in the end.

    • Skywatcher

      Jon, if you haven’t done so yet, please feel free to email me and ask for the two manuscripts that will settle this debate once and for all with you! Then, you will see who is truly being deceptive and deceived! There can only be ONE Truth, and His name is Jesus, the Christ. He started the first teaching about a rapture: Acts 1: 9.

      Ask for the FREE document: Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib at:

      scotianprince@eastlink.ca

      You’ll be greatly relieved that you did!

      • This site is not a marketing tool for you. I have allowed you to let people know you wrote something, but will delete future marketing posts you make. Go make your own website.

    • RobiMac

      Jon, do you believe that Jesus is coming for His bride? If you do, then you need to know that He is not coming for a beaten and bloody bride. He plainly says that we are not appointed to His wrath. He does not punish the righteous with the unrighteous, it goes completely against His nature.

  • kiwiwatcher

    Paul had been in Thessalonica (population 200,000) preaching (Acts), converting both Jew and Gentile. There he had shared the message that the Messiah Jesus had died for their sins, rose again, would soon descend to the clouds and gather up His believers prior to Jacobs Trouble. After Paul left Thessalonica, some of the people the newly established church died. This led to some members of the church to question how their dead brothers and sisters would enter heaven, and whether their Saviour would be returning in their life time.
    As the distressed mumbling reached Paul’s ears while in Corinth in 51AD, he wrote to reassure them.
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
    Paul continues….
    1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
    “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”

    The Day of the Lord is a period of troubles – tribulation. It is not a single day but wrath of some duration. Day of the Lord concludes, coming as a thief in the night, as the second coming following the great tribulation.
    Amos 5:18
    “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”

    Isaiah 13:6
    “Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.”

    Paul’s first letter was well received, some members of the church stopped working as they assumed their arrival into heaven was a very near event. However, several months later some misleading gossip and a fake letter with Paul’s signature was being circulated about the Thessalonica church stating the day of the Lord had already come. This conflicting report was especially troubling to them because Paul had encouraged them (1 Thess 5:1-2) in his previous letter that they would be raptured before the day of wrath came upon the earth.

    Paul wrote back.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
    “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand.

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

    In verse one Paul recalls the rapture but has very little interest in delving into the rapture as it has been discussed in his first letter and is not in dispute.
    Verse two shows the dispute has been over the ‘the day of the Lord,’ (the tribulation) and don’t be troubled by false pastors/websites.
    In verse three Paul states The Day of the Lord (tribulation/second coming) will not arrive until there is a “falling away” and the man of sin is revealed.
    Rapture, a falling away, man of sin revealed, tribulation, Christ’s second coming.
    2 Thessalonians 2:5
    “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”
    Ps – I note that my 1967 KJv states ‘the day of the Lord’ and others claim ‘the day of Christ’ so I don’t know what relevance that is.

    Due to the falsehoods Paul confirms authenticity by signing off with -“The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.”

    • Skywatcher

      My dear fellow sibling in Christ, Kiwiwatcher,

      Thank you, so VERY much for such a scholarly dissertation! Right to the point and indisputable!

      This SDA troll is causing quite a stir, and spewing off a nasty mess of satanic spawn! I hope he gets to know the real Jesus before it’s too late.

      Pre-trib, post-trib or mid-trib…either way…we’re going to be with Jesus! PTL!

  • Just Derek

    Your words:
    The Church that Jesus eventually did create He loved very much, with a very special love that is likened unto the marriage between a man and a woman.

    “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;” Ephesians 5:25 (KJV)

    Why would Jesus give himself for the church if it was a backup plan.???

  • Skywatcher

    Bro. Geoffrey, as a Pre-tribulationist, I have NEVER seen such a theologically corrupt piece of manipulation in my entire life! Where did you get this from, Walmart?

    Your “First Rapture” bites the dust before it gets “off the ground”, pun intended! Nowhere in Scripture does it say that these resurrected people ascended up into Heaven by a cloud, a chariot, a Yellow Taxi, etc.! That was a groundless argument for a Pre-Trib Rapture, my dear brother! I expected more from you than that!

    I’ve looked Rev. 4: 1 up in the works of some of the greatest theologians of all time,(John F. Walvoord, Henry C. Thiessen, and Dwight Pentecost) and NOT a single one of them came up with the wildest claims that you did in trying to prove three raptures that you erroneously have done! Oh my! To think…people are actually swallowing this stuff…:(

    I just cannot believe it!

    First of all, one needs to go back to the Greek and understand that the word that we use for “rapture” comes from the Gk. “Harpazo”, meaning “to catch away/up; pluck, pull, take by force”. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, Greek Dictionary of the N. T., pg. 16, # 726.

    Nowhere in Rev. 4: 1 do we see this in relation to the Church. Renowned theologian, John F. Walvoord states, “It is clear from the context that this (Rev. 4:1) is not an explicit reference to the rapture of the church, as John was NOT actually translated; in fact he was still in his natural body on the island of Patmos. He was translated into scenes of heaven only temporarily. Though there is no authority for connecting the rapture with this expression, there does seem to be a typical representation of the order of events, namely, the church age first, then the rapture, then the church in heaven… From a practical standpoint, however, the rapture may be viewed as having already occurred in the scheme of God before the events of chapter 4 and following chapters of Revelation unfold. At the beginning of chapter 4, then, the church may be considered as in heaven and not related to events which will take place on the earth in preparation for Christ’s return (Second Coming/Advent, added) in power and glory.” The Revelation of Jesus Christ, A commentary by John F. Walvoord., 1966, The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, p. 103.

    Geoffrey, you went way out on a limb to concoct this teaching, I’m afraid.

    The only 5 raptures in the Holy Bible are:
    1. Enoch was translated, Gen. 5: 24
    2. Elijah was caught up in a fiery chariot, 2 Kings 2:11
    3. Christ was caught up in a cloud,Acts 1:9
    4. Philip, Acts 8: 39
    5. The Rapture of the Church: John 14: 3; I Thess. 4: 17; I Cor. 15: 50-52.

    If you need a little more help understanding the topic, please feel free to request your FREE copy of, “The Distinctions Between the Rapture and the Second Coming” and “Pre-Trib Rapture vs. Post-Trib. Rapture: scotianprince@eastlink.ca ALL ARE WELCOME TO DO SO! See what the old time theologians had to say about such matters.

    After the length of time it took me to research your material and to type this up, I’m still shaking my head in shock! Not good, my brother. That’s false doctrine of the purest kind.

    Much love, in Christ Jesus,

    • Suez

      Skywatcher. Amen sir. Apparently, Mr. G. just likes to see people argue, or some strange thing, as he just had this almost very same thing a couple months ago. Nothing ever gets settled, just arguing, which is sad as we should try NOT to do that, but this subject gets people so shaken up, and some get very mean spirited, about it. That just shouldn’t be. So, why keep posting it, over and over again??? Shaking my head also!!! 🙁 Talk about twisting and stretching the scriptures…My, my, my!

      • Skywatcher

        Thank you, Suez! I’m afraid I must be in total agreement with your observation. It must be a slow day at the office! I was taken aback when I saw this horrible theologically loaded toxic missile being launched once again…and so soon!

        People are fallible; we make mistakes. But in matters of theology, we must be able to provide supportive Scriptures for the topic we have brought to light. We cannot just lift out three that have no reference to the subject at hand, and go with it as gospel truth. That’s not good hermeneutics!

        We need to be good Bereans and diligently search the Scriptures…”rightly dividing the Word of Truth”. This is so ironic, considering, he just gave a radio message on such! Maybe our dear brother Geoffrey has a ghost-writing imposter! 🙂

        In any event…he sure got the dirt and feathers flying!

        God richly bless you!

      • We will keep posting it “over and over again” because the Pretrib Rapture is a BIBLE DOCTRINE, and here at NTEB we teach Bible doctrine. And if you are looking for things to “get settled”, you are wasting your time. The apostle Paul, the greatest Christian that ever lived, at the end of his ministry could only get this reaction from the people he preached and taught the Bible to:

        “And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.” Acts 28:23,24 (KJV)

        And it’s been like that for the past 2,000 years. So the reaction I get here is nearly identical to the reaction the apostle Paul got. I am recording that one as a “win”. 🙂

        • No Geoffrey, your refusing to heed godly correction to your obvious error concerning the pre-trib rapture notion is NOT Bible doctrine, but amounts to a doctrine of devils and false teaching for which you are now accountable to others and to YHWH (God).

          Those of us who are genuinely of the truth and of God will contend earnestly for the faith that was once delivered to the saints, precisely as Jude 3 commands the elect to do. Repeating a lie unchallenged often leads many astray. But that in no way makes it right or brings glory to God. Nor is is it loving or truthful. if it is not both of those things, any teaching that is in error is of the devil, the father of lies, and prince of this soon-perishing world.

          The fact that some of us disagree with your false teaching in no way amines it comparable to the reaction which Paul received from disingenuous Judaizers who sought to derail his godly ministry of the truth of the one true gospel of Jesus Christ, Yahushua. when you teach falsehoods, the godly will contend with you earnestly. You are on the wrong side of objective and Biblical truth on this one. I call upon you to examine the simple evidence for my truth claims which I have posted here, think carefully about them and to confess and repent for your teaching errors. We all make errors, Geoffrey and you are no exception to this universal truth. Now you have received godly correction for it. A wise and humble man will admit his errors, confess, repent and correct his ways. A prideful man will repeat his revealed errors and continue to mislead others in the process. Once response honors and glorified YHWH (God). The other response does just the opposite.

          I pray that you will choose the godly and right path of righteousness, truth and love. I mean this in all sincerity.

          • It was taught by Paul, and it was taught by John, and I am sorry you cannot either see it or believe it. What you call a “doctrine of demons” Paul calls “that blessed hope”. Paul stands on the weight and authority of personal revelation from Jesus Christ. You stand on your hatred of the Rapture. Now who do I believe, you or Paul? Hmmm…..decision, decisions. Umm, Yeah, gonna have to go with Paul.

          • Oo-rah, Geofrey! Wish I had said that. 🙂

    • Your first 4 examples are not the Rapture at all, as they only happen to individual people. That’s why I said that John experienced a TYPE of the Rapture. Is that really the best you got? You wrote a whole book on that? Hmm…

      • Heather

        Isn’t it odd how so many who hold onto the post tribulation rapture view, come onto a site in which the owner presents truth of Scripture and holds to a pre catching away of the Church before the time of Jacob’s trouble?

        They show offense and surprise to what you have presented, yet with apparent intentions of wanting to hijack your website to promote their wrongly divided, Scriptural views.
        God Bless you Geoffrey!

        Revelation 3:10 KJV
        Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

        1 Thessalonians 1 : 10 KJV
        And wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

        • Now Heather, ask yourself why would anyone holding to a view other than your preferred one wish to bring correction to your clear error? if you knew God as some of the rest of us do, you would know that we do so out of our love for God, for the truth and for those of you who are deceived and misled by the clearly false teaching of a pre-trib gathering. So why would ANYONE wish to suppress and silence such godly correction? And in so doing, who do they REALLY serve? God or the devil?

          What part of “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” from Matthew 24:29 don’t you get?

          What part of “And THEN…” which is how Matthew 24:30 starts off don’t you get?

          What part of “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God” from 2 Timothy 3:16 or “EVERY WORD of God is PURE” from Proverbs 30:5?

          God’s word is crystal clear, Heather. if you wish to put your trust in fables and fairy tales, be my guest, but don’t you dare claim a pre-trib rapture in a public forum like this one and not expect to receive correction for your clear Biblical error. Only a fool who dismiss such godly correction and abuse those boringly loving correction to her. Humility, confession and repentance is the proper response to truth and to godly correction, Heather. Only time will reveal if you have it in you to do the right thing. But it’s pretty obvious what the right thing is.

          • Heather

            Do you know much about Buddhism Mr Wedemeyer? “False Watchman”

  • Richard

    I have seen many a fight over this. Pre, mid, post, something in between. Most usually have their favorite verses they throw around to prove they are right. I am pre tribulation, and have heard all the discussions and out and out fights. But, I have notices over the years, that it is the none believers of the pre trib rapture what usually resort to name calling as the discussion goes on. So, guess we will just have to wait and see, now won’t we. I’m ready to go right now, either by rapture of death.

  • James Staten

    .

  • Enrico L. Isidro

    1 Thess. 5:9 says, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”. I think what see here is that we will be spared from God’s wrath but not from tribulation. God’s day of wrath (which seems to start in Rev. 16 signified by the seven angels commanded to pour out the 7 vials of God’s wrath upon the earth), I think, is different from Tribulation period.

    In Rev. 3:10 we read: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I (Jesus) also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”. What I read in this verse is we will go through tribulation but will be kept safe by our Lord Jesus

    • Enrico, You read God’s word correctly with one minor exception: the wrath of God begins in Chapters 8 & 9 with the seven bowl judgments and then continues later with the seven vi9al judgments of Chapters 15 & 16. the tribulation comes to an end late in Chapter 6 and is further described (post gathering) in Chapter 7.

    • kiwiwatcher

      1 Thess. 5:9 says, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation/deliverance by our Lord Jesus Christ”.

      Salvation (Greek and Hebrew) implies deliverance, safety, preservation, healing and soundness.

      And has three tenses –

      1 – saved from guilt and penalty of sin
      2 – saved from the dominion and habit of sin
      3 – saved by grace through faith

      To be left to endure Jacobs Trouble/tribulation would mean that God come up a little short and only partially supplied my Salvation. Do you think that really is the case?

      1 John 5:3
      “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

      Rev. 3:10
      “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I (Jesus Christ our Saviour) also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”

      This verse means physical/spiritual departure.
      Notice that it mentions “them that dwell upon the earth” – its not just men/humans that will roam the planet. mmmm Not a good time at all.

  • john

    better read it again. i dont think he said that

  • carson

    who is the group in rev 5 singing the new song? it’s shown from rev chapter 4 through chapter 5, the 24 elders and 4 beasts.
    They are the only groups mentioned, the Lamb and 7 Spirits of God are mentioned also but not as singing any songs.
    If a new group was brought in/seen then john would have mentioned it.

    we will all rule and reign yes, but we all are not the 24 elders, the 24 are the 24.

    rev 5:9-20 fails to take in rev 5:8, rev 5:8 leads into 5:9 and shows right there who is singing the new song, along with everything before that. Within rev 5:11 is a host of angels, 10,000 x 10,000’s, and down to rev 5:13, every creature..now that’s something to study, the unredeemed praised God and the Lamb? Also those in hell praised God? or creatures? Is this the ‘every knee shall bow and every tongue confess event? it doesn’t read like it when we still have rev 9 to come where ‘they repented not’ or rev 6 with it’s ‘hide us from the wrath of the Lamb’..not praising the Lamb but some hiding and later some cursing etc. The every knee bowing is denoted as being at the judgement seat of Christ (a separate study), a different event then this rev 5 ‘all creatures praising’.

    anyway rev 5 never shows an enormous throng of people..that’s Rev 7,
    and those people, not elders, not angels, not the 4 beasts, specifically came OUT of the GREAT trib, last 42 months/anti-christ seating and era of empowerment rev 13:4-5 and 2nd thess 2 (matthew 24:15-21 has also a great short summery-the abomination of desolation/seating of the AC, THEN, GREAT trib).
    Then you can examine rev 15:2 to see if this isn’t the same Rev 7 group simply shown once again who came out of the great trib, the way it’s worded-and them that had gotten..is as if we’re already to know who these are that these had been introduced to us already, back in rev 7. These overcame the mark and worship so obviously saw some portion of the beasts reign and yet somehow their there in heaven before the 7 vials of wrath, before the return of Christ rev 19, before the 1st and official resurrection rev 20..before the ‘end’

    we should also study the words used for the 3 sets of judgements, 7 seals 7 trumps and 7 vials, only one has ‘wrath’ used along with it, the 7 vials.
    Not appointed to wrath, neither white throne judgement wrath of the lake of fire etc nor the 7 vials..?

    Then also study the 3 groups, rev 6:9, rev 7/rev15, rev 20:4,
    Rev 6 and rev 20 groups are called souls and say’s they died.
    Rev 7 group is not called souls and never say’s they died.
    Rev 7 group did suffer hardships.

    but wouldn’t those killed for the faith also have suffered hardships beforehand? Yet being slain for the faith is the focus as that outweighs hardships, so taking the time to show that the rev 6 and rev 20 groups are souls and died yet not doing the same for the rev 7 group..is there a reason? did the rev 7 group not all die? and hardships was only shown as that’s what happened, hardships but not slain?
    And all that and yet somehow their in heaven before the vials, before the ‘end’ having come OUT from the GREAT trib, not before the Great trib ever happened..

    There are more verses that needs be added to a study of the catching up but we can for sure not fail to examine the rev 7/rev 15 verses as the verses are there for a reason like all the verses.

  • Skywatcher

    Matt, you said, “Amazing how he says we’re in the Tribulation, isn’t it? And apparantly it ends next year in October?

    Huh. I guess I missed the two witnesses dying and being resurrected, the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, the abomination of desolation, stars falling from heaven, a 1/3 of mankind dying, rivers of blood, etc. You’d think all that would be in the news by now, seeing how far we apparantly are into the Tribulation. Guess God got it wrong…”

    I too, feel your pain! What in the world was God thinking by not allowing us to witness these major events! After all, I’m pretty sure Christ purchased my ticket for such on Calvary! Umm umm ummm!

    And date setting at that! That’s eternally rich…considering it is IMPOSSIBLE to set ANY date because of all the varying time zones around the world! Merciful! In Canada, it is Oct. 21 and in Australia, it’s already Oct. 22! What will we ever do?

    I’m greatly encouraged to see that a few like yourself, are in the KNOW! Thank God for good Bereans of the Word! “Well done, thou good and faithful servant”!

    • SW, If you read your bible as faithfully as you claim to do, you would know that the Two Witnesses prophecy for 42 months or 1,260 days which we are doing right now. The 42 months of the treading down of the Gentiles of Revelation 11 is not yet over. So simple logic should tell you why the Two witnesses (a symbol for the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judaea) has not yet occurred. But simple logical reasoning does no appear to be a forte of yours.

      The 144,000 are NOT at all Jewish!!!! God’s words reveals them to be made up of 12,000 descendants from each of the 12 HEBREW tribes. The true descendants of the 12 Hebrew tribes are all from the white or Caucasian race. Those posing as Jews of today are in reality of Turko-Mongolian Khazar ethnicity, as revealed by Arthur Koestler’s 1976 book, “The Thirteenth Tribe.”

      The abomination of desolation occurred both literally and metaphorically on March 22, 2013. Where were you? Didn’t you get the memo? don’t confuse your ignorance with the mistaken belief that the event never happened.

      The stars falling from heaven? Read Matthew 24:29-31 to properly grasp the timeline. We’re in the tribulation NOW. Only after it ENDS will the stars fall from heaven. Be patient. God has His sequence of events that He’s sticking to faithfully, even if you are struggling to follow it.

      1/3 of mankind dying? Rivers of blood? those come AFTER the gathering from the tribulation described in Revelation 7, not before. You have a real struggle with following simple timelines, don’t you?

      Date setting? Where? Please show us. I only reveal the 45 day window of time within which the prophecies of Matthew 24:29-31, followed by those of Revelation 19:7-9 have to occur to rigorously fulfill all end times prophecy with hair-splitting accuracy. No day or hour prediction of Christ’s second coming here. Looks like you are jumping to conclusions again without any facts to back them up, SW! How utterly embarrassing for you!

      Good Bereans? Where? I’d say that your flattering yourself without the evidence to back up your mockery. It’s quite likely that you don’t even have a seat on the rapture bus when it arrives. Otherwise, you would not be so completely deceived. Matthew 24:24 tells us to expect this. Seems as though the Bible is 100% right once again. Imagine that.

      • Wendy

        **** WATCHMAN:
        A contentious spirit is never from the Lord. I’m afraid you have one….

  • carrierwave

    One of the best articles you have done, Geoffrey —SOUND DOCTRINE!

  • We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. Glory to God!

  • Tee

    I love this website, first time commenting, but I am confused by this article, and particularly the “new song” singers.

    Chapter 4 and 5 of Revelation deal with:

    The four creatures, singing Holy, Holy, Holy; the One who is on the Throne holding the scroll; the Lamb Who is the only one Who can open the scroll; and the “four living creatures and the twenty-four elders [who] prostrated themselves before the Lamb. Each of the elders had a harp; they held golden bowls full of incense, the prayers of God’s people, and THEY WERE SINGING A NEW SONG: ‘You are worthy to receive the scroll and break its seals, for you were slain and by your blood you bought for God people of every tribe and language, nation, and race. You have made them a royal house of priests for our God, and they shall reign on earth.'” The elders sang the new song, yes?

    It is in Chapter 7 of Revelation that John sees the “vast throng, which no one could count, from all races and tribes, nations, and languages, standing before the throne and the Lamb. They were robed in white and had palm branches in their hands, and they shouted aloud: ‘Victory to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'” They are not the ones singing the new song.

    In fact, Chpt 7 goes on: “One of the elders turned to me and asked, ‘Who are these all robed in white and where do they come from?’ I answered, ‘My Lord, it is you who know.’ He said to me, ‘THEY ARE THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED THROUGH THE GREAT ORDEAL, THEY HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. THAT IS WHY THEY STAND BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD AND WORSHIP HIM DAY AND NIGHT IN HIS TEMPLE; AND HE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE WILL PROTECT THEM WITH HIS PRESENCE.”

    Also, please check out Revelation 13:6 “(It [the anti-christ] was also allowed to wage war on GOD’S PEOPLE AND TO DEFEAT THEM, and it was granted authority over every tribe, nation, language, and race.” How can there be the ability to wage war on God’s people if we are not still present when the anti-christ is revealed?

    Could the rapture be at Revelation 14:14, the reaping? Also, right before this, in Revelation 14:13, is this: “I HEARD A VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAY, ‘WRITE THIS: ‘HAPPY ARE THE DEAD WHO HENCEFORTH DIE IN THE FAITH OF THE LORD!” How can there be any left to die henceforth in the faith of the Lord if the Rapture took place before John’s visions of heaven in Chapter 4 on?

    I don’t mean to bicker, but if indeed the rapture occurs after the NWO/anti-christ system, would it not be best to prepare for what we may endure as well as to seek to hone our spiritual gifts in order to continue witnessing fervently?

    Peace and Blessings, and remember, All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Joel 2:32). Nowhere do I find evidence that one must adhere to a specific rapture theory in order to be saved.

    • Don

      Hello Tee, the Saints that the Anti-Christ is allowed to make wa with are the eople who missed the Rapture and became Christians, and refused to take the Mark of the Beast. One of the greatst testimonies to Jesus will be when all the Christians are Raptured to heaven. If you were not a Christan, wouldn’t you become one ? And endue untl the end, even unto death ? So there will be Saints, they will be some of the 5 virgins who didn’t fill ther Lamps (body) with Oil (Holy Spirit) and thus could see properley.

      Those that stood before the Lord was everyone who came through the trials on earth that all men have, and overame Satan by the blood of the lamb.

      Anyone that reads Revelation 19 can see the Rapture is Pre Trib. There are “much people in Heaven”, then the Church gets married to the Lamb, then we put on white linen which is a sign of the Saints, then we get on White Horses and Follow Jesus back to earth where GUESS WHAT !!! The Beast/A.C., his Kings and their Armies await to do battle with Jesus whom they hate.

      This proves that the world is still evil while we are in Heaven being married to Jesus. Then we com back and Jesus destroys all evil, and locks Satan up for 1000 years.

      God Bless

      • Tee

        Don, thanks for the response. I was in a study that was adamant that because the church is not mentioned after the letters to the churches — and therefore there is a pre-trib rapture — there is no Holy Spirit left to convict those “left behind.” This did not make sense based on what I plainly see (in my first comment.) Therefore, it appeared to me that the saints undergo tribulation.

        So, the Holy Spirit, the only thing that effectually convicts us and draws us to the Lord, does remain to work on unbelievers after the pre-trib rapture?

        • Don

          You’re Welcome my friend, sorry about the spelling last night but I was sleepy and my computer was acting up, running slow, had to do a reboot.

          I think the 144,000 have to have the Holy Spirit, I think the one who Restrains is the Church( Kinda), but the Holy Spirit restrains until the Gospel is preached unto all the world on behalf of the Church, thus the dispensation of the Gspel unto all the world must come to pass befoe the Church can be taken up to heaven.

          Remember Jesus said that Jerusalem would be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the Time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So I take it that the time of the Gentiles will be finished when the Gospel has been preached unto all the world, and with the advent of TV, that has basically happened.

          There is no way, imho, the 144,000 could be dynamic preachers without the Holy Spirit, and why would they be preaching if no one could be drawn unto God by them ?

          I think the Church is what restrains (Holy Spirit does the restraining), in that our mission has to be accomplished first, then the Man of Sin can be revealed after we are taken out of the way, becase we are the light of the world.

          GB.

    • If you would like me to respond, please use KJV only. I do not have the time to answer your question AND correct your bible version. Thank you 🙂

      • Heather

        Bible Version. Those were exactly my thoughts. The difference between “We and Us” verses, “Them” makes a HUGE difference!

  • Marian

    Thanks, Geoffrey, for addressing this topic again. I never get enough of it. As has already been mentioned, the critics of the pre-trib rapture are the most obnoxious commenters. Disagreeing is okay. The vitriol isn’t. Mind your manners when you explain your viewpoint please!

    • Marion, The pre-trib rapture is contradicted by the words of Matthew 24:15-31. AFTER (Matthew 24:29) means after. It’s as simple as that. “And THEN…” means after that (Matthew 24:30). The entirety of the words of the Bible must be factored into any proper understanding of any issue of doctrine. But 2 Timothy 4:3-4 tells us that in these final days of the end times men will not endure sound doctrine, but will exchange the truth (of a post-trib gathering) with fables (including a pre-trib gathering). Looks like the Bible has it right again. Imagine that.

      That which is popular (the view of the majority) is almost always wrong. The pre-trib rapture notion is no exception to this truth.

      Rather than respond with your feelings here, I suggest that you show me in god’s word, being faithful to EVERY relevant verse, where I am in error. Otherwise, confession and repentance for your group’s Biblical errors and wishful thinking are called for.

  • ROSSANO WAGNER

    The ones who will be alive when the trumpet of God sounds, will meet the Lord in the air AFTER the first ressurection (ressurrection of the saints):

    “15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and REMAIN until the coming of the Lord will by NO MEANS precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

    The first ressurrection occurs on Revelation 20:

    “4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”

    So, we can see clearly that the meeting with the Lord in the air is at the end of the Great Tribulation, before the Thousand Years.

    I think this pretrib rapture doctrine has the intention to weak Jesus’ followers when they see that the Great Tribulation began, and no rature happened.

    May the Lord correct me, if I’m wrong!

    • Don

      Brother Rossano, The Church is married in Heaven in Revelation 19, so how can that be ? I think God showed me something on the First resurection that a lot of people miss, God has no time, he also seperated the 70 Weeks over 3 periods. Now, we know that the Dead in Christ are raised first, then we who are alive and remain meet Jesus in the air and will be with him forever. In my opinion, this is the first resurection, it is the resurection of the Saints. We go to Heaven, whether dead in Christ or Alive to marry the Lamb.

      When we come back with Jesus, as Rev. 19 clearly says we do, those that were Killed by the Anti-Christ because they became Christians after the Rapture, will be Resurected, this is also the First Resurection, it is the Resurection of the Saints, it was just a 7 year period, and GOD HAS NO TIME CONSTRAINTS.

      Now, the people who are dead and never accepted Christ will remain in the grave unti the 1000 years Reign of Christ is over, then they will be resurected to sit before the Judgment Seat of God !! Amen.

      I think we have to study the word analytically, not verse by verse, we have to take scriptures that seem to contradict each other and search out the truth, because God never contradicts himself.

  • Clay

    Ok, time for me to chime in.
    What about this view on this “hot topic” that is never brought up. Geoff., I would like your thoughts on this.
    When I got saved 25 years ago, I began to devour God’s word, and really wanted to know the Bible. I also got into studying the end time views of what is being discussed. I had heard the three different views and began to see “what the scriptures were telling me”. The Holy Spirit showed me that the only truth and logical conclusion that exists is
    The Pretribulation View of the Rapture. Ever since then, I have continued to try to find “the scriptures”that point to the other beliefs (and they are not there). I am a layman scholar, but like Geoff points out, the scriptures are at a 6th grade level. It’s not that complicated. Don’t read anything into them that is not there. As they say, it’s time yal go back to the drawing board. It’s simple. Jesus is going to deliver us( the church) from the wrath to come. John speaking to the churches in Revelation 3:10; we will go thru tribulation, but will be delivered from the Tribulation. It’s not hard people.
    Am I right Geoff? Can I get a witness?
    Clay

    • Skywatcher

      You’ve got a witness here, Clay! Very well said! The Holy Spirit will never lead us astray!

    • kiwiwatcher

      Greetings brother Clay…rest assured.

      Rev 3:10
      “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

      Many perverse preachers have come in sheep’s clothing to alter the meaning of this promise.
      They make a huge fuss over the use of the preposition (Greek) ‘ek’. It has been traced throughout historical writings, as well as Biblically -‘tereo ek’ as in John 17:15. “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
      Both pre- and post- camps agree that the meaning is ‘preservation outside of the evil one’.
      Therefore, Rev 3:10 is a clear Godly promise that the True Church will removed prior to the tribulation.

      Do not believe otherwise. Bless you

    • For the reasons I have outlined, the Pretribulation approach is the only one the Bible will allow when you “rightly divide” as Paul commands. There is no debate. The very name of the Tribulation – the time of JACOB’S trouble – should be all that’s necessary to convince the doubters that it has nothing to do with the Church. But sadly, this is not the case.

      Thanks for writing!

    • Clay, You cannot have it both ways. Either the elect will go THROUGH the tribulation, or we will be rescued FROM it. You are saying both, and as such contradict yourself, thus revealing your confusion.

      The simple answer is revealed in Matthew 24:15-31 which reveals three steps in sequence: 1) the great tribulation occurs which will last 1,290 days, starting with the fulfillment of the prophesy of Matthew 24:15, verse 21 tells us, 2) the four celestial events of verse 29 will occur right after the tribulation ends, and 3) “And THEN…” the gathering of verses 30-31 will occur.

      So help me understand Clay: if the gathering is reveled here to occur AFTER the great tribulation is over, how is it that the elect do not go THROUGH the great tribulation? Verse 22 further complicates your pre-trib thesis. If the elect are rescued from the great tribulation, then why would God care to shorten the days of the great tribulation as described in this verse? Either I’m very confused or you are. Which is it? Prove it with KJV scripture, not just with wishful thinking and claims which contradict what all of scripture SAYS.

  • There is only one bodily return of the Lord Jesus Christ in which we meet Jesus in the air and get new Heavenly bodies as His. We immediately land with Him on the Mount of Olives. The entire first creation is destroyed… and recreated anew.

    This occurs on the Last Day at the Last Trump. This is Judgment Day. It occurs at Final Armageddon after the 1000 years.

    The term “rapture” is what confuses people. They confuse it with the bodily return of Jesus Christ.

    As you showed in your article, there are many “catchings away”.

    The catching away to the throne of God to start tribulation in the birthing of the manchild of Revelation 12 occurred on September 30 along with the tribulation begun through every prophecy fulfilled by the antichrist pope, Obama, the UN, and the war starting with Russia/Syria.

    The 7 year period has begun. As you noted, John while on the Isle of Patmos was caught away to the Throne of God.

    And, on September 30, there was a catching away to the Throne of God likewise in a shared spiritual experience that initiated the endtime move of the Spirit.

    We are now in the time of the great falling away of the first half of tribulation AND the overcoming arising of the Church of Philadelphia in the endtime move of the Spirit.

    This will continue for the first half of the tribulation.

    At mid-tribulation, there will be a more powerful show of manifestation from “both sides”.

    The devil and his angels will be cast to earth… global full blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will occur among the reprobate on earth… the beast will declare himself to be God… and declare open war against all saints… compelling all to take the mark of the beast.

    The Heavens will open in a manner reminiscent of the experience of Stephen and Jesus will be seen in Heaven from earth by the saints of Philadelphia. Even as the wicked were consumed in fullness by the spirit of the devil, a baptism of the Spirit in full transfiguration glory (not partial as Stephen expeienced) will be experienced by the saints of Philadelphia – the prepared wise virgins.

    Thus, shall the angel of Revelation 18 give the shout to come out of Babylon globally and those who come out and hear shall transfigure and be translated to the soil of NT Israel (America). FIRES OF REVELATION 18 will sweep the soil of NT Israel to strike dead every malcontent on the soil who has declared war against the saints. Every reprobate blasphemer shall perish. The zero, Barack Hussein Obama, will thus burn to zero bodily at Ground Zero.

    The soil shall be purged of all human agency of satan… and sin on the soil shall go to full remission as the saints stand on the soil in entire sanctification in transfigured bodies.

    Then, God will heal the land in the transfiguration glory… and the land shall be fully restored in full sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit… become ZION in the Kingdom come fully on the soil as Revelation 12 and the whole of scripture attests. The land shall be restored as Eden…and the saints shall be in the bodily transfigured state of Adam and Eve before their fall in entire sanctification in these bodies of flesh made of the dust of the Genesis creation. (No Heavenly spiritual bodies until the LAST DAY.)

    The angels with the flaming sword shall take position. And close the door.

    And even as Eden is not seen today by those who are not in the transfiguration glory of Eden… thus shall America and the saints of Philadelphia be removed and disappear from the sight of this world.

    The wicked shall have seen only the fires of Revelation 18 and shall wrongly exult believing that America has only been fully destroyed and removed… not seeing or knowing that we the saints of Philadelphia have entered ZION to disappear from their sight… and we shall live therein during Great Tribulation and the 1000 years.

    And we shall live unto the full bodily return of Jesus Christ who returns bodily on the Last Day at final Armageddon after the 1000 years.

    TRIBULATION HAS BEGUN!

    Sincerely,

    Laura Lee/Mary
    Apostle of the Church of Philadelphia.

    • THE BIBLE BELIEVER’S GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=32728

    • Laura Lee/Mary, You are correct that the tribulation has begun, but it began on March 22, 2013 and Daniel 12:7 and 12;11 reveal that it will NOT last 7 years as you improperly claim here, but will last a time, times and half a time (3 1/2) years, and more precisely, 1,290 days.

  • Clay

    Oh by the way I forgot to add this. Put away your theological sense for a while and put on your “common sense” hat.
    If the truth is the post trib scenario is the correct assessment, then when the 2nd advent occurs, Jesus comes at His 2nd coming, as He comes down and He is in the clouds, He raptures us up in the air, then we “immediately ” come right back down with Him??? We get caught up, then quickly come right back down? Wow, that’s a quick trip. Why is that? What good is that? Are you kidding me? Get real post tribbers!!! Have you ever thought of that. If you believe that, you have No common theological sense. Your duped by a misinterpretation of the Scriptures from someone else’s view or your own.

    • James Staten

      Clay, that’s been called the Yo-Yo Theory!!!!

      • I suggest you stop theorizing and simply read God’s word for what it SAYS.

        Simple logical deduction from a faithful reading of God’s word reveals that the resurrected elect cannot get to the marriage supper of the Lamb of Revelation 19:7-9 without being first gathered according to the prophecy of Matthew 24:30-31, which comes AFTER the great tribulation ends, according to Matthew 24:29.

        The fact that you may struggle to understand what the simple English words say is an entirely separate matter. Truth and integrity START with what the entirety of what God’s word SAYS. It’s quite simple. If you’re honest and have intellectual integrity to divide God’s word carefully and properly.

        Stop starting with what you WANT the answer to be and start with what God’s wordlclearly says and means. How hard is this?

    • kiwiwatcher

      Saw one of those at the amusement park

      • Heather

        kiwiwatcher, LOL! Smiling! 🙂

    • Clay, Your confusion is in jumping to the cont;fusion that we come right back down. Scripture says otherwise. Why will you keep ignoring what God’s word actually SAYS? Read Revelation 19:7-9 concerning the marriage supper of the Lamb that occurs right after the gathering occurs by simple logical deduction. Only AFTER that does Revelation 19:11-16 reveal that we return with Christ wearing white garments and riding white horses in which Christ will tread the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God. Upon whom? Upon the wicked, who remain left behind in the gathering.

      “There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death.” Proverbs 14:12

      “Lean not on your won understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.” Proverbs 3:5-6

      Why do you choose to ignore these verses, Clay? What’s in it for you to do such a foolish thing?

  • Skywatcher

    Carrierwave says in reply to my post, “You missed a “rapture”. Revelation 11:11-12 the “Two Witnesses”. Philip was not raptured, or given a glorified body to enter Heaven.

    Your emphasis of “old time theologians” is simply ridiculous. There are a lot of oldtime heretics of the past too, but that does not matter. The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture rests solely on the Word of God not a lot of “old time” traditions of men. When you stop siting the writings of “men” and begin using the KJV, maybe people will listen to you. Until then, happy traditions to you.”

    Carrierwave, I don’t for one second detect much love of Christ in you! Thank you, so VERY much for bringing the rapture of the two witnesses back to my recall!!! When I made the comment, I felt I was missing one, but it just wouldn’t come back to my recall. See! Everyone can make a mistake, even YOU: Philip WAS translated (raptured)!

    PLEASE do read, Acts 8: 39. Here, let me help you out a little: “…the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. v. 40 But Philp WAS FOUND AT Azotus…” He didn’t walk there! He disappeared before the eunuch’s sight! He was raptured (caught up, caught away)as the Strong’s Greek dictionary defines “rapture”!

    Where do you get this idea from that everybody who is raptured must have a “glorified body”? How do we know that Enoch or Elijah had glorified bodies? Or, the two witnesses that you so “kindly” reminded me of, for that matter! They were all caught up to Heaven! There’s no reason to suspect another’s walk with Christ…is there? I don’t doubt that Geoffrey is a genuine born again child of God,my brother even! I didn’t attack his standing with Christ, and I love him just as much today as I did last week! You just proved the point that it is so easy to be led astray in these last days. Ignorance of the Scriptures is NOT something to be proud of. Thank you, for your insights!

    As for accusing me of, “siting the writings of “men””, I do hope you realize that the whole KJV is just that…inspired by the H.G. of course! 🙂 Obviously, you’re totally oblivious to the fact that for many years, pastors and Bible teachers have been relying quite heavily on the insights of these and other very godly men when they wrote their sermons! They’re still relying on the insights of these precious men of God! Men who knew what it was to pray and to fast and to endure severe persecutions in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and not of Jesus of Mexico!

    Furthermore, these were very godly men that I cited, lived in a time when truth and integrity were of absolute importance, especially when it came to godly matters! They devoted their whole lives to the study of God’s Word, and they didn’t take it lightly. They scrutinized every word, doctrine, etc. that came their way! They were very careful to follow the teachings of the other experts of their day, sometimes even debating them! They raised quite a stink when something was found to be at odds with God’s Word. Even Christ had to correct the religious leaders of His day AND His disciples when they got a bit derailed. Are we not the disciples of Christ?

    We can all agree to disagree…in the spirit of love and fellowship, can’t we? I’m not a “new kid on the theological block”; I’ve been a born again Christian for almost five decades; I do know a little about God’s Word and how to handle it very carefully and prudently…

    I’m NOT following traditions of men, as you wrongly accuse. It would behoove you to look up the word, “traditions” of men and learn what it is really all about before accusing others.

    I suspect you would also spit in the face of the disciples of Christ, for they also did theological dissertations!

    However, I do detect you’re a follower of people, and not the Christ of the KJV, or you have very little knowledge of the same. I don’t say that to be unkind, but basing it on your remarks. I DO use the KJV and NOTHING else! I have actually done a transcript on the many counterfeit bibles that are out there, showing their additions, omissions, doctrinal errors, background, etc.. Would you like a copy? It’s FREE! scotianprince@eastlink.ca

    May God richly bless you with the discernment that is so needed in these last days. 🙂

  • The elect, the seed of promise, are the Israel of God from New Jerusalem above.

    Esau was not elect. Neither were the reprobate of John 8.

    Every saint of God in Christ is elect and the seed of promise… whether before Moses, after Moses, or today. It is one household of faith.

    • The identity and unmistakable attributes of the true elect is the core issue here. Because only the elect are gathered in the rapture and everyone knows it.

      The elect are evident from two distinct traits: a dedication to objective truth and sacrificial love. The elect manifest both attributes.

      The vast majority of those professing themselves to be Christians (the elect) are self-deceived. Because they routinely exhibit neither a love for the objective truth, nor a sacrificial love for their fellow man. What true follower of Christ would EVER mislead another into believing a lie such as the pre-trib rapture? No true follower ever would.

      Anyone clinging to the pre-trib rapture notion join this final year of the great tribulation is deeply deceived. Matthew 24:24 reveals that only the elect shall not be deceived in these days. Hence, anyone clinging to the pre-trib rapture notion is not of the elect and will not be gathered in the coming gathering in l;ate 2016.

      Let none of the elect be deceived. The non-elect will be. God’s word says so. And God never lies, changes or fails.

      • Heather

        As in the “love” you show fellow man? Lol Bla bla bla, you just ramble on to hear yourself talk. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a “Gaston” in all my life.

        • Heather, You apparently have a hard on for anything approaching objective truth. As the true internet troll that you are look at your dishonest attempt to malign me below by removing the context in which I wrote those things. I stand by everything I teach and write. My comments on Disqus are quite often direct. I don’t suffer fools easily and I am sick and tired of the vicious lies you and your fellow trolls are peddling. Your aim is obvious: deceive the naive, the gullible and the lazy. Sadly for you, I am none of those things.

          Get lost vain and pompous troll. Your days of deceiving others and engaging in ad hominem attacks whenever you are exposed for who and what you so clearly are are just about over. Another year or so should just about do it.

      • Wendy

        **** Oh, WATCHMAN:
        Let’s not forget that the elect ALSO manifest The Fruits of the Spirit…..you know, love, kindness, gentleness et al.

        YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT.

        • Telling the lost and the deeply deceived what they want to hear that is in error is anything but loving, selfless or courageous. I suspect you have never witnessed the true fruit of the Spirit. You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

          You forgot humility (meekness) in your beginning list of the nine fruit of the Spirit, Wendy. Was that intentional, or merely a freudian slip? What about goodness? And faithfulness? And how are those evidenced in your comment here?

          • Heather

            False Watchman, my Sister Wendy is filled with the true fruit of the Spirit.

            As I said before, the Lord has blinded you and hardened your heart, because you have never repented of your arrogance toward others. You give the excuse of your bad mannerism for teaching truth in love. Which is not even truth. You are a trained false prophet.

            Not only have you spoke to us on this forum as though we are far beneath you, (being the Pharisee that you are), you speak even worse to other Christians, and, non Christians on the following public disqus forum.

            The following only proves YOUR TRUE fruits of the Spirit. I rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ! You have no shame……

            Ephesians 5:11King James Version (KJV)

            11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

            https://disqus.com/by/Watchman_on_the_Wall/

            Watchman on the Wall  Cezz  8 days ago

            What? Because I’m not deceived by your lies? You got a god complex son?

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            Google is not the authoritative source on all things. Get a life. Read some books.

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Cezz  8 days ago

            Sorry liar, but that con ain’t gonna work with me. Go stick your demonic lies and BS where the sun don’t shine.

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            Simple logical reasoning Junior. Something that totally escapes your feeble mind.

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            Actually, it is. I’m not interested in the opinions of wicked globalist trolls and stooges such as you. You have no interest in the truth: only in suppressing and silencing it.

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            That’s a bald-faced lie. Pointing other to some fraudulent “jewish” websites is not explaining or proving anything in your own words with credible evidence backing it.

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            You are, petulant, disrespectful, abusive, obnoxious child and spoiled brat.

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            A link to a fraudulent “jewish” website ain’t evidence, Junior. I’m not about to waste my time examining your lame drivel. Explain it succinctly in your won words or give up. I suggest you do the latter, and save both of us the trouble. I’m prepared to shred you with endless evidence and simple logical reasoning that is irrefutable.

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            Nope. Not going down that fraudulent rabbit trial, Junior. Let’s see it in your
            own, simple words explanation.

            There is no credible evidence of transitional life forms. They don’t exist.
            They don’t exist because a transitional creature with no fins and no legs on land would become lunch for the first carnivore who walked by, thereby preventing such mutations from ever reproducing.

            How embarrassing for your frauds of pseudo-science! Caught with your knickers down around your ankles once again!

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            Explain it in your own simple words Junior. I am not interested in following
            the fraudulent rabbit trails of “jewish” liars.
            I asked a simple question that you frauds of pseudo-science refuse to
            answer because you have no credible answer.

            Prove me wrong.

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            It’s proven to be true by virtue of the events over the past 100 years which
            have entirely executed the plan laid out therein.

            The “jewish” liars trying to deny the obvious leak have done everything you could to discredit it, but the plan laid out therein perfectly explains the events of world history over the past 100 years. Denials of pathological demon-possessed liars never have any truth to them.

            ReplyView in discussion

            Watchman on the Wall  Waykent  8 days ago

            Do your own research, Junior. I fully footnote and document every one of these objective truth claims in my scholarly book. But you have no interest in objective truth. No troll of the Satanic global elites does.

            ReplyView in discussion

  • amigodana

    Psalms 52:3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.

    Psalms 52:4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue.

    Psalms 52:5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.

    Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.

    Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

    Proverbs 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

    Proverbs 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

    Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

    Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

    I think these verses are a little more clear as to what God has in mind. So, once again;

    Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

  • Greatman

    The lecturer says, “Read all the chapters of my handout and get ready for the exam.”

    Your course mate says, ” Oh, read chapters 1 , 2 , 29 and 30. the lecturer normally doesn set questions from the other chapters. You dont have to suffer, relax your muscles and nerves a little more. In Gods name, you shall surely pass the exam.”

    The students who listen to the lecturer have the greatest advantage because if questions should come from any of the chapters of that handout, they ll surely have an idea as to how to tackle the exam.

    Those students who listened more to their course mates, enjoyed themselves, took the easy way into the exam hall by revising some selected chapters and pages will definitely pay a bitter price if where they expected questions to come from never happen . Disappointment will lead them into frustration. Frustration ll lead into disloyalty or suicide.

    This is what ll happen in the last seven years of this earth.

    Mr Grider, why are you being so stubborn hearted?
    You must stop what you are doing to the 21st century christian. Pride ll not take you anywhere. Just admit your errors, apologize to the millions of people you have impacted with this mockery of endtime teachings, get down on your seat and go through what post tribulation teachers are saying and get the understanding.

    Your are acting just like Harold Camping the false prophet. You are setting the people up for the satanic season just like Camping set his followers up, died and left them behind in a very confused and sorry state. He shifted the goal post anytime his predictions about Christ’s return failed. Now you are also claiming Three Raptures. Hmmmm …..!

    Repent! Repent! Repent from this heresies.

    • Thank you for your sound, godly and Biblical advice to Geoffrey. And blessings to you! How refreshing to see another man of the truth speak up and expose this harmful heresy for what it has always been.

      • Greatman

        Hi Watchman, i’m very happy to have someone being awake in these dark days.
        I greet U with smiles. One thing i want U to research on if U havent done is Spanish Inquisition. Mr Grider claims the church of Christ is qualified enough not to go thru persecution. Now i ask, those thousands of souls that got murdered by the catholic religion, were they part of the church of Christ or not?

        People got burnt on the stakes. Others were fed to wild starving beasts in theaters ( stadiums) just because they would nt bow down to the corrupt idol worshipping organization.

        Today we are told to believe the church is free from pain and everyone is jumping n clapping the hands.

        God have mercy on us.

  • Vic

    It really does escape me how anyone could read scripture and come away with anything other than a pre-trib scenario for the Rapture. I find well-measured and supported arguments in support of it, here and other places, and yet each time it never fails to draw the same tired arguments from detractors who are determined to miss the point.

    I, for one, very much enjoyed this article, Geoffrey. I’m ready to go home.

    • Don

      Vic, its caled tunnel vison my Brother…LOL. They see the Matthew 24 “Immediately after te tribulation” and they are history to reason .

      I try and tell them, that is right, and we the Church will e coming back with Jesus (Rev. 19) Immediately after the tribulation, so what does that prove ? But they are tunnel visioned. Sadly.

      When told God does not pour out His wrath on His people, they say but this Tribulation is the wrath of Satan, not of God, then you point them to Rev. 6, the opening of the Seals caled the Lambs Wrath, and the first wrat is the Anti-Christ on a White Horse, then you have earthquaks etc. At the end of the chapter these are called the Lambs Wrath. But still they persist.

      God Bless

      • Don, God help you! That verse describes the timing of the four celestial events described in verse 29 relative to the timing of the great tribulation, AND THAT IS ALL. The gathering of the elect is not even described by Jesus until verses 30 & 31 and the return of the elect at this point is not even germane or relevant. No wonder you are so seriously confused. Reading comprehension of English is not your long suit, is it?

        Tribulation is common to all of God’s elect. The wrath of God is not. They are two completely different things. But false teaching pre-tribuatlionists wish to make this leap of faith and distort God’s words and clear intent in the process because the idea of trials and tribulation is not convenient for them. Pre-Tribuationisjs are deeply deceived.

        Matthew 24:24 reveals that this is a pretty clear sign that they do not number among the elect. And only the elect are gathered to Christ in the gathering of Matthew 24;30-31. THIS is the REAL reason the pre-tribulations cling to their indefensible position on the timing of the gathering relative to the great tribulation. It reveals to them that they are not of the elect, and thus not saved and that idea torments them more than any of them can bear. And who can blame them? That’s very bad news for them. But this in no way entitles them to mislead and to deceive others. That is cruel, mean, unloving, cowardly and selfish. It is not at all of Christ.

        Now the REAL TRUTH of the reason for the pre-trib rapture doctrine of devils emerges into view!

        • Don

          29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

          Now let us compare Revelatin chapter 6….Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

          Here below is where you and your tripe miss the boat. The Rapture has already happened, we Saints are in Heaven getting married unto the Lamb (Rev 19). But we come back with Jesus immediately after the Tribulation/21 Judgments of God. Now look below and tell me where the Saints are gathered from !! It says they/we are Gathered from the four corners of Heaven.

          30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

          31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.

          You fail to understand the scriptures I am pointing out because you have tunnel vision. I said we come back with Jesus from Heaven…NOW, Open your Eyes !! What does verse 31 say ? We come back from Heaven with Jesus, the angel gathers us together to make that journey from Heaven.

          • Whooo boy!! If you think this is heaven, you are more strongly deluded than I ever thought possible!! Thanks for providing yet another sign that 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 has been fulfilled upon you. I’ve encountered a whole bunch of nonsense masquerading as pious religiosity, but you take the cake!

            “Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceives not in him the lips of knowledge.” Proverbs 14:7

            I refuse to respond to such nonsense. You’re totally incoherent relative to the context of what scripture clearly says.

    • The more you dig for evidence of the Pretrib, the more you find. The amazing part to me is that John teaches it as much as Paul does. John himself is a type of the Church – hand picked, special and different from the others. I have believed the doctrine of the Pretrib Rapture for over 23 years now, but after all this time I have ten times the amount of scriptural validation now as I did when I started. It’s amazing.

      • kiwiwatcher

        I enjoy how John, of all the apostles, used ‘door’ most frequently.

        John 10:1-2
        “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
        But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.”

        John 10:9
        “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.”

        Revelation 3:8
        “I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.”

        Revelation 3:20
        “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

        Revelation 4:1
        “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

    • OK Vic, Please explain to me, from the words of the KJV of the Bible, how Matthew 24:29-31 DO NOT describe the sequence of end times events as follows: 1) the great tribulation ends, 2) four celestial events occur, 3) the gathering of the elect occurs.

      What part of “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days…” from verse 29 does not connote time sequence to you?

      What part of “And THEN…” from verse 30 does not connote further time sequence to you?

      Help me understand how this confuses you and leads you to conclude from this that the gathering as to be pre-trib? The words of God I refer to here say precisely the opposite of this.

  • Tommy

    Though you mean well brother and I visit your web site quite often, you to are not (all the time) rightly dividing the word of truth. I also quite often visit doctrine.org who rightly divides a little better than you.But then again that’s only my opinion . May God bless.

  • Pingback: Tribulation Has Begun!! (Response to NowTheEndBegins article) | Grace Explosion()

  • Dominic Jackson

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 – Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    John 3:13 -No man has ascendeth up to Heaven excellent the one who descended from heavem, The Son of Man.

    The Bible speaks clearly about what happens in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and it isn’t the rapture of the church I’m sorry to report. I would to say that thoseof us who have lived a life according God’s will are going to escape the Great Tribulation, but that’s not thr case. This scripture tells what’s going to happen to His Saints, His first fruits when He returns in the first resurrection, when we are caught up in the air, the sky (the first heaven in the clouds) to meet Jesus as He returns as He is prophecied to return, THE SECOND COMING! Once He comes back the second time, that’s it, it won’t be a third time. If we are not a first fruit, then we either will go through the tribulation, be sealed from it by God, or be martyred in His name. See folks don’t want to hear the truth, but there is no where in the Bible that says rapture, going to heaven. The words are come up hither, into the first heaven, ( the sky). There are there heavens: the sky, outter space, and the Third Heaven where God Almighty, Jesus, and all the Angels and Elders are. Don’t take my word for it, study for yourselves.

  • LogicallyNclinde

    Stop with this false teaching of a pretrib rapture. You are taking verses and twisting them up to fit a false pretrib rapture. All you did is pull versus out and not apply the whole scripture to the verse so you have an out of context false pretribulation rapture. I pray you all don’t be fooled when your not caught up because most of you beleivers in this false teaching will turn away from Jesus because you will have to go through the tribulations. Your faith will fade and you will give in to the mark of the beast out of fear. This article is nonsense and if you don’t read the whole scripture you can easily take verses out of context like this author clearly did.

    • Don

      I can answer and prove any Post Trib theory is wrong. With Scriptures.

      • amigodana

        But, can you prove there is even going to be a 7 year tribulation? Show me the scriptures that say there is a 7 year tribulation.

        • Daniel shows us a 7 year period, but the New Testament, Revelation, only shows 3.5 years. So where did the other 3.5 years go?

          • amigodana

            What Scriptures specifically?

          • Geoff, You failed to answer the direct question of amigodana above. Daniel DOES NOT show us a seven year duration of the great tribulation. Daniel 12:7 reveals it as a 3.5 year period and Daniel 12:11 defines it even more precisely as 1,290 days.

            Daniel 9:27 is frequently misunderstood. The first half of the last week of years was fulfilled during Christ’s first ministry. His death on the cross put a permanent end to the need for the daily animal sacrifices and oblations described in this verse. The second half of that 7 year period is the great tribulation we are now 2.5 years thorough and living through the final year.

            Why are you playing such mind games here? How does this bring glory to God and model what true ambassadorship for Christ ought to look like? It does not.

            God’s prophet has spoken. God tells me that He is not pleased with your false teaching here. Just thought you might like to know.

        • Don

          amigodana hello my friend, greeting in Jesus’ name. I think the 7 Year Tribulation period is called this, even though it will be only 3 1/2 years of Tribulation for conveinences sake, there really is not a point in speaking about it as a 3 1/2 year peace deal and a 3 1/2 year Tribulation period, when we all know and understand that. And the 3 1/2 year peace it what ushers in the Tribulation period, so in essence without the Peace we would have no Tribulation, so they go hand in hand.

          Could we be Raptured afte the Peace deal and before the 3 1/2 years of Tribulation ? That is possible I guess but to me the Marrige Feat is a week and the tim period for Jacob’s troble is one week.

          I guess that would be possible, but from my research and understanding we will be out of here, in Heaven for 7 Years. Any way you want to look at it, we the church will not be here for the Tribulation.

          • amigodana

            I did not see any scriptures in your response.
            What Scripture says that there will be a 7 year tribulation?

        • Skywatcher

          Amigodana, I don’t know if I’m allowed to speak freely, but I’ll take my chances, and answer your very important question. It’s quite simple, really.

          The Great Tribulation is divided into two parts:

          1. Rev. 12:6 (1,260 days divided by 360 days (Jewish calendar) = 3.5 years. This part is PRIOR to the rule of the Antichrist.

          2. Rev. 13: 5: “42 months” divided by 12 = 3.5 years. This is the time frame in which the Antichrist comes to power.

          I hope this helps!

          • amigodana

            This is what scripture 1 says;

            (Revelation 12:6) “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”

            Show me how God interprets where the wilderness is. I don’t see where your getting which calendar to use either. Your starting to add things to it here!

            Scripture 2 says;

            (Revelation 13:5) “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”

            Where does it say that you should divide that by 12 and not 10, or any other number for that matter?
            Again, you are adding things to it here.

            Neither of these scriptures say anything about 7 years, about adding them together, or even adding or dividing in the format that you have suggested.

          • Totally not true. Show me the 7 years in the New Testament.

  • Excellent article. Thank you. despite a lifetime of believing pre-trib doctrine I learned somethings new from this piece. Wonderful. thank you again. Brian

  • Vincent

    I find it amazing how so called Brothers and Sisters in Christ argue over theology! It seems that every one has a different interpretation! for this reason we are to be led by the Holy Spirit which leads us in all truth and understanding. One of the things that God hates is division among the brethren( Proverbs 6:19 ) The enemy of our soul wants to divide us and he is doing a very good job of it. It is clear that the world is divided like never before! Are we living in the last days? I believe we are! The signs are here! and we ARE commanded to stay on guard as Jesus said ” What I say to you I say to all WATCH!” instead of arguing over theology, as Brothers and Sisters in Christ lets come together and teach God’s love, grace, mercy and plan of redemption to an unbelieving world! There are so many lost people in the world that have not received His word! How does an unbelieving world look at christian’s that are divided among themselves? Do they really want be part of that? do they laugh at us? do they ridicule us? Or better yet how does God look us? lets all agree on one thing, and that is salvation! Lets answer the call and walk in our assignments to spread the good news! We all are going to disagree on something but lets get over that we have a lot to do in the world! Sorry if I may have offended any one but God put this in my spirit! and as a servant i needed to say it! God Bless you all abundantly

    • Vincent, Why does this surprise you in the least? Jude 3 tells the elect to contend (argue) earnestly for the faith – the one true faith of the god of the Bible. Why are there 33,000 Christian denominations all of which claim exclusivity on the truth and no one else has it? Because they are ALL false! They are ALL apostate, fallen away frauds. How do I know? Because the Bible predicts just this in these last days of the end times in which we are living and I have personally witnessed it from 10 different forms of organized religion over the past 10 years.

      Obedience to the entirety of God’s word commands the elect to keep every commandment; not just the fun stuff. Otherwise, our very knowledge of and love for Christ is questionable, just as John 14:15 reveals. Sound doctrine matters. False doctrine deceives, misleads and harms others. False doctrines are described in 1 Timothy 4:1 as doctrines of devils. Anything that is false is not of Christ in the least, as He reveals to Pilate at John 18:37. Jesus was not Politically correct. he was direct, honest and truthful in a spirit of sacrificial love for God’s lost sheep whom He gave to Jesus (the elect).

      Your notion of smoothing over our differences is not of God, nor of Christ. The notion of salvation apart from both truth and love is an oxymoron. The devil loves confusion and conflict. And he gets lots of it when men compromise with the truth to “go along to get along” with that which is false, ungodly and wicked. Every church in America is guilty of this sin and crime today. It is why the American Church is lifeless, dead and ineffective in our godless culture in 2015. And God has ordained it thus to fulfill His end times plan for the elect and all of humanity.

      This is why God commands the elect as follows:

      “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” Revelation 18:4

      Let the wise (the elect) understand. The wicked never will. Daniel 12:10 assures us of this. We are at the end.

    • Skywatcher

      Vincent, that was such a great admonition, a breath of fresh air! Thank you, so VERY much! But I don’t know if you’ve come back on or not since your comment, but it sure didn’t take long for the old devil to find fault with that also!

      These sites shouldn’t be called “blogs”, but rather “bogs”…where so many get bogged down in vitriol, and anti-christian attitudes.

      I thought it was great! “Blessed are the peace makers: for they shall be called the children of God.” Mt. 5: 9

  • Allan Rowley

    The Messiah is a Hebrew of the tribe of Judah (Rev 5:5).
    The Bible or Torah/Tenach is written about a family based on the Hebrew culture.
    Believing in the mind set of Greek or Western culture is where all the confusion of the end times come.
    The Messiah follows the Hebrew Feasts of Yahuweh or Israel and will return at the Feast of Trumpets.
    When? well the Bible tells us in the Gospels to “Watch”! For what? the signs. Have you seen the 2 witnesses? Is the anti messiah(Pope) sitting in Jerusalem? etc, etc.
    Regarding “we will not know the time!” This relates in Hebrew culture to the Feast of Trumpets, once 2 witnesses have seen the new moon then the Feast of Trumpets starts.
    With this last Feast of Trumpets (2015) many false preachers said that the “rapture” would occur! Anyone know someone “raptured”, again and again we hear this lie, year after year?
    In 1 Thess 5:5 it tells us “if you are sons of light” you will know when the Messiah is returning. So those who do not know are “sons of darkness.”
    2 Thess 2:9-11 tells us, if you want to believe a lie(s) then “the God of the Bible will send a delusion on you.”
    In Matt 24, the Messiah tells us how the end times will pan out.
    Note Matt 24:29-30 tells us “after the tribulation of those days…, then the Son of Man will appear in heaven…”
    You do not have to be a rocket scientist or a dreamer to see what must occur before the Messiah returns. If you can read, there it is in black and white.
    The Messiah does not want luke-warm believers, He wants Spirit-filled, Spirit-led, set apart followers who trust Him and hate this world.
    We have to go through the tribulation so He can sort out the luke-warm, false believers which the church is full of today.
    Yes, we are raptured before His wrath but not before the anti messiah or Satan’s wrath. Just ask the believers being persecuted in the Middle East, Asia, Africa and China. No pre trib rapture for them?
    But the American church must be pre trib raptured?
    Those mega “Seeker friendly” churches, “name it, claim it”, pathetic “saving grace prayers” where they tell you your name is written in heaven – theology. Get real, Christianity is become just a “money making racket”, where the false teaching of “once saved, always saved” is preached.
    Where is the old hymn, “trust and obey”? Where is the repentant heart of the sinner seeking a change of heart and to “forsake all” to follow the Messiah? Christianity is deception.
    Satan lost the war when the Messiah died for our sins and rose from the dead 3 days later.
    Satan wants “everyone’s soul”, so he started religion, as in Christianity with Constantine back in 321AD, they have changed the Hebrew names and Hebrew feasts to Greek names and feasts.
    Fact: “J” was not in the English language 500 years ago!
    Before this it was Ieous, before that the Geek God Zeus.
    Check the parables, who gets taken out first in the parabale of the Wheat and tares?
    Anyone can use allegorial script to prove anything in the Bible. That means you take part of Scripture, mix it with another part and prove your argument?
    The God of the Bible is a God of order (1 Cor 14:33).
    Pre trib rapture is chaos – no one knows when it will happen!
    Now ask yourself, preferably guided by the Spirit, is pre trib rapture true?
    Blessings on the discerners of truth.

    • Allan, Much of what you write is correct. What is not correct is that no one knows when the gathering of the elect will happen. The Bible leaves us many clues as to approximately when it will happen and what must precede it. No man knows the day or the hour scripture tells us. But this is ALL it says concerning this matter. Be careful about reading more into scripture than is actually there. A few simple clues leads the elect to discover a 45 day window of time within which the prophecies of Matthew 24:29-31, followed by those of Revelation 19:7-9 have to be fulfilled for all of then times prophecy to be fulfilled with hair-splitting accuracy as it always is, when fulfilled. That 45 day window of time is fast approaching and occurs roughly a year from now.

      The notion of a pre-trib rapture is indeed chaos and to at all of God or of Christ. It is a lie. All lies find their origin in the father of lies, the devil, who seeks to deceive and to harm many. The brave, the loving and those of the truth will resist this heresy and expose it for what it always has been: a lie from the pits of hell.

  • Martus

    There are actually 4 Raptures.

    The first was when Jesus took those from Abraham’s bosom to heaven.

    The second is the loving church believers(wise virgins) before the 7 year Tribulation.

    The third rapture is the rapture of the 144000 (from the tribes of Israel) who were sealed when the second raptured occurred to teach those who will listen what happened to the loving church and explain God’s word mostly to the Israel’s.

    The 4th rapture occurs 1290 days after it is the rapture of the Messianic Church and the remainder of God’s people.

    There are 3 places in the bible where it is alluded to:

    When the people of Israel brought in the Barley Harvest which happened before the Wheat Harvest the first of the Barley was given to the priest to offer it to God and the main harvest could then be taken, likewise with the wheat harvest.

    Jesus and those that were taken out of Abraham’s Bosom were the firstfruits of the Barley Harvest so next is the main rapture of the loving Christian Church (Barley Harvest) which can go ahead, next is the rapture of the first of the Wheat Harvest which is the 144000 of Israel and then the main Harvest of the Messianic Israel can occur.

    Jacob had 4 wives, as Christ calls His church His Bride, 2 were the main wives and each wife had a servant maid who became Jacob’s wives later.

    Jesus was raptured and told His believers that He came as a servant, Jesus representing the servant wife of the main wife Leigh. Rachel who Jacob loved is the same words that God uses to speak about Israel who God loves and Rachel is taken last after, the 7 years (tribulation) is completed. The servant of Rachel or Israel is the 144000 of Israel who are chosen first and go out to the rest of Messianic Israel to teach them about God.

    Read the below passage and you will find Jesus speaking about the coming 3 Raptures and His people are told to watch for His arrival.

    The first watch has occurred as the Bride is in Heaven and Jesus is coming back from His wedding.

    The second watch is He is coming for His servant managers (144000) who are feeding His people.

    The third watch is for the messianic servants.

    Notice also those left to the end will suffer the greater punishments as they will endure all of the Tribulation.

    Luke 12:36-48King James Version (KJV)

    36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

    37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

    38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

    39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

    40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

    41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

    42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

    43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

    44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

    45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

    46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

    47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    • Greatman

      These stories u say are nothing but bedtime stories told to a sad kid who’s just gotten his basketball snatched by a bully.

      Be serious with urself, Martus.

  • GWA

    Can I just simple this up without posting a 12 paragraph explanation?
    #1: GOD DOES NOT CHANGE (meaning? He won’t do anything differently then he has done in the past)

    #2: WHAT did God do “before/in the past”?

    #3: Let’s look at 2 individuals who had some experience with God’s judgement. Noah and Lot

    God did NOT give Noah and his family inner tubes and say “if you can hold on then you will be worthy to be with live and serve me”. No, he had Noah build an ark where he and his family would be SAFE. Jesus Christ is THE ark this time.
    Lot….what did God do there?
    God sent his angels and could NOT begin “judgement” on Sodom and Gomorrah UNTIL Lot and his family were safely OUT OF THE CITY. God didn’t hand Lot & co a hose and say “keep dousing yourself and IF you can endure until the end then you will be worthy”.
    Get the picture…….we are not meant to suffer God’s wrath.
    People act like we have to go through hell on earth so God will know who is his and who is not.
    Bottom line: GOD KNOWS and He knows…..right now!

    I am sticking with what the Bible says and with how God has always done things in the past.

    I really don’t want an argument about mid or post trib…..I have tried looking at both sides of that and you have to really twist or interpret God’s word differently then what it actually says and if you believe that then more power to you. Nothing I can post here will change your mind.

    God Bless all my brothers and sisters and as for me I am holding onto my “blessed hope” with both hands because it’s all I have left.

    MARANATHA

    • Heather

      Amen GWA!

  • James Staten

    Tommy, I agree with you. I come to NTEB everyday. I also go to doctrine.org literally everyday. Doc Samdahl is very good, and he will take the time and answer your questions. Lot of wonderful articles. http://doctrine.org/the-rapture/

    • Thanks for the link, more great stuff!

  • Martin_ZA

    I didn’t get a chance to read through all of the comments above so i’m not sure if anyone mentioned this, but remember Enoch was also raptured away to heaven and what about Eli? he was also “caught up” to heaven… so the 2 witnesses coming back to earth during the tribulation, in my opinion, must be Enoch and Eli. They technically did not die a physical death, therefor they must “come back” and die and obviously the 2 witnesses will be resurrected after 3 days as stated in Revelation.

    just my 2cents

  • Martin_ZA

    Thanks for the info. I was referring to Elijah not Eli, sorry.

  • Martin_ZA

    By the way I find your teachings very interesting and want to thank you for the great info. i come here almost everyday. I don’t agree with everything all the time, but its good to read and learn new things as much as possible to expand our faith in God and to expand our knowledge.

    keep it up!!

    Be blessed

    • Suez

      Martin. You said: ” learn new things as much as possible to expand our faith in God and to expand our knowledge.” I tell you according to the word of God, the best way is to Read the Bible, to gain knowledge and TRUTH, not listen to Man’s opinions!! That is how people get lead astray, in case you didn’t realize that! 🙂

  • Pilgrim Progressing

    Just as Peter slept soundly the night before he was to be beheaded, the day of the Lord couldn’t have happened in acts 7. Jesus prophesied to Peter what would happen when he would grow old. Peter wasn’t old either time.

    • Peter declared that the day of the Lord was coming to pass in Acts 2, those were his words. But it didn’t happen because they rejected Stephen’s preaching. Read more here: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=33597

      • No, the day of the Lord did not happen 2,000 years ago solely because God did not will it thusly, and for no other reason. God is sovereign. Man is peanuts next to God. End of story.

      • What about Daniel’s prophecy concerning the 2nd coming? This was well before Steven’s time.

        • Peter’s declaration in Acts remains true to this day. It’s coming. Remember: a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day to God, as revealed in 2 Peter 3:9. Only today, that second coming is merely about a year away, whereas in Peter’s day it was (with the benefit of hindsight) 2,000 in the future.

          The problems come when those lacking God’s Holy Spirit are unable to grasp the literary language which Christ and the apostles employed in scripture. Instead these deceived ones read the words literally and legalistically as did the Pharisees before them. The result is the same: both groups are spiritually lost and eternally damned. They are false teachers with whom God plans to deal quite swiftly and harshly for misleading others. What they do is truly wicked and mean. God is not at all amused.

  • Juni

    Another argument you hear against a pre tribulation rapture is that the church has to go through the tribulation to be purified, to be made righteous and fit to get into heaven. This is a false belief system which seems to be imbedded in some christians psyche. No where does it say in scripture that we have to go through martyrdom, although there will be martyrs during the great tribulation. No where does it say that we have to go through a time of cleansing or purification. This is more like new age teaching. On the contrary, Jesus is coming back for a holy, victorious, spotless bride who is looking for and longing for his appearing, not some downtrodden, desperate, unholy, battered bride. When I see christians believing we have to endure persecution, and that doesnt mean some will not, I just think well why did Jesus shed his blood if not to save, and make us pure and holy, we cant do it ourselves and there is nothing we can do, even be martyred to make us worthy It is only by the Blood of the Lamb and the Word of our Testimony that we enter into glory.

    • Yes, exactly correct! And let me also add this to what you said. You are right when you say that Christians do not need the Tribulation for “purification” because we are MADE PURE at the moment of salvation by Jesus shed blood. Furthermore, we see another startling difference between Church age saints and Tribulation age saints.

      In Revelation 7:14, we read this: “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Those Tribulation saints are making their own robes white by a combination of faith + works. Not so for the Church.

      “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,” Revelation 1:5 (KJV)
      Christians do not do any of the “washing” as Jesus did it all on the cross for us! So we see that the Tribulation, the time of Jacob’s trouble, is to refine and purify the Jews and Israel who currently reject Jesus Christ.

    • “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” Jesus’ words at John 16:33

      Why do you refuse to believe Yahushua (Jesus), the son of YHWH (God)? Those who refuse to believe Him are not saved. It’s just that simple.

  • James Staten

    Juni, Excellent summation. I had the thought while reading your comments. I believe the first time in all of scripture in Revelation 3 there is the mention of the word “earth dwellers”. We know through the apostle Paul that in truth we a Citizens of Heaven. A Heavenly People waiting for the redemption of our bodies. The term earth dwellers speaks volumes in contrast!!!!

  • Just GOOGLE “will there be a rapture of the church?” and you will find numerous
    books that dispute this.
    There are 30.000 “Christian” denominations or should I say sects and they all purport to represent the truth.
    Christianity has become a DIY religion.
    Paul was an authority. Where are today’s authorities?
    Oh, I know everyone purports to be an authority. There are millions of them.

    • The authority is the infallible words of God preserved in English which is the Holy Bible. The authority is not church denominations and the authority is definitely not Google.

      God’s word declares a pre time of Jacob’s trouble catching away. That’s truth. (1 Corinthians 15:51/ 1 Thess 4:16 KJV)

      • Yes, indeed but these infallible words are interpreted differently
        by millions of people who once again all purport to know the truth.
        This forum is a prime example.
        Besides look up the first printed Bible “The Gutenberg” bible and look at the number of books it has.
        You will notice that it has more books than the King James Bible.
        The Gutenberg Bible was the first Bible ever to be printed.
        Which is the true Bible The Gutenberg or the King James?
        And why the difference?

  • As I have been going over and reviewing all the comments here, the Holy Spirit just pointed out to me another proof-text for it being the Church in Revelation 5 that I totally didn’t see until just now. Check this out:

    In Revelation 1, John is addressing the CHURCHES – “John to the seven churches which are in Asia” – in his opening greeting. John goes on to say that we, the CHURCH, has Jesus made to be “kings and priests unto God and his Father”. It is the Church that are the “kings and priests”. Well, guess what? Who are the people in Revelation 5? Kings and priests. What an amazing “coincidence”. Just look at the two verses side by side:

    “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” Revelation 1:6 (KJV)
    “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Revelation 5:10 (KJV)

    John was talking about the Church in chapter 1, and it is the raptured Church he again sees in chapter 5, as “kings and priests” of our God. In both places he uses the identical phrase “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests” which gives us complete harmony.

    • Tom

      Where does Paul call us kings and priest Geof ? John is not the apostle to the church, his writings are to Israel and the Jews and you know that. Rev. is a Jewish book written to the Jews. No where in the book of Rev. is the body of Christ mentioned. Man,you never cease to amaze me.

      Exo 19:6
      And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

      • The Book of Revelation is in three parts:

        1). The Church on earth and raptured to Heaven: chapters 1-4
        2). The time of Jacob’s trouble: chapters 5-19
        3). The Second Coming to Eternity: chapters 19-22

        John is not the apostle to the Church, but he is a type of the Church. He wa the “one that Jesus loved”, he lived the longest, and was not killed like the others he died of old age. Revelation 4:1,2 (KJV) gives us light on the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church which goes hand in hand with what Paul teaches. John is the only other in the NT to do that. Further, his gospel stands apart from MM&L because he is the only one talking about becoming “born again”. For these reasons he is writing to the Church primarily and not to Israel like the other three.

  • I believe your teachings!

    • “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Acts 17:11 (KJV)

      Thanks for reading!

    • Believe no man; read the Bible for yourself and challenge everything.

  • James Staten

    Heather, I was just getting ready to say something similar to you. Mr. Grider, there is an old saying, “You only receive the flak if you are over the site”. We are in a spiritual battle as we well know, but I keeping asking myself why do all these people come to your website and park themselves. They should just leave us then in our own misery. They will never convert us. We are Looking for Our Blessed Hope. You have said this so many times as well as many of us. They refuse to learn from the apostle Paul, if they could just get a glimpse of Paul, and grasp where he fits in scripture they might understand. I don’t believe I am mistaken with this comment, “Most sermons every week have Pastors preaching from the Gospels about Jesus in his earthly ministry, with a scattering of other scripture thrown in”. I believe there is a lot of truth in that statement? I grew up listening to this type preaching. Paul makes a statement about His (Jesus) earthly ministry in 2 Corinthians 5:16, which shows we no longer follow a man after the flesh. The Lord revealed Mysteries from glory to the apostle Paul. Most people just believe that everything remained the same with Paul, but that is just not true!!! https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Corinthians-5-16/

    • Right. The church that started with Peter in Acts 2:28 TRANSITIONED to become what it is now under the preaching of the apostle Paul. Out went baptism as part of salvation, and IN came salvation by grace through faith alone. Out went keeping the Law of Moses, and IN came keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ. And the list goes on and on. Peter preached the same gospel as John the Baptist – repent and be baptised – but Paul preached REVELATION given to him directly from Jesus Christ that NONE of the others knew about. The ONLY apostle who commands us to “follow him” is, guess who? Paul.

      Things that are different are NOT the same. Amen!

    • Paraphrasing what you wrote here: “They will never convert us; we will cling bitterly and tightly to our false beliefs to the bitter end.”

      Sounds like yet another cult to me. No humility or teachability or genuine interest in the truth here… Is this of Christ? Certainly not!

  • Richard

    As I read the responses to the post, I see nothing has changed. This is still one of those hot topics witch will lead to fights every time it is brought up in “mixed” company. This, along with speaking in tongues, eternal security, woman pastors, baptism, and a few others, usually will lead to a very hot and some what varied conversation. All will usually end up with one or more people getting a bad case of the flesh. Name calling never changes another person’s mind.

    • Yes, but you are overlooking one very important thing. Yes, a few dozen people will come to these boards and stir up trouble. I get that. But when I look at the server stats and see that these teaching articles that Bro. Jimmy and I publish here are read by hundreds of thousands of people all over the world, you start to see a larger picture. For every one person who comes here and argues, 1,000 people will be blessed by the Bible teachings here.

      NTEB is not teaching your “best life now”, we are teaching Bible doctrine. Now I know that vegetable juice is not as appealing as chocolate pie, but it sure makes you stronger, healthier and you live a lot longer. Our email box is filled with emails from all over the world thanking us for staying strong with old-fashioned, Bible doctrine teaching. The few that come and fight doesn’t slow us down in the least.

      • Gotta love the vegetable juice reference!

    • Jude 3 calls for the elect to contend earnestly for the faith and Ephesians 5:11 and elsewhere teach the elect to bring godly correction to that which is Biblical error.

      The metric of objective truth is God’s word. Nothing else. Closed minds to objective truth is of the flesh and therefore of the devil. All matters of doctrine are easily resolved by an honest reading of scripture with one’s misplaced egos left at the door. Most Christian forums, this one included, are ruled by more flesh than Spirit; hence the conflict.

  • Devon Drake

    With all due respect to this exo-Biblical false doctrinal programming. I will pull no punches.
    No place in the Bible is the word “Rapture” ever used. It may not seem a great error at first, but it is one of the greatest errors that could possibly be foisted upon Jesus’ church. The use of the word “Rapture” leads to certain blocking and hindrance of understandings, one being in the last chapter of Daniel, concerning the 45 day span between 1,290 days and 1,335 days (taken literally as “days” and not “years”, as some erroneously contend – A day is a day, a year is a year), and the seemingly gotcha catch-all “no man knows the hour or day” scripture, erroneously connected to the arrival of Jesus light and power seen coming with the clouds of heaven, which appears so, at first and 2nd glance. The word “rapture” defines more as a “singular” momentary event, leading to the allusion of such. The word which IS used is the “GATHERING” of the Elect. “Gathering” can be singular or “extend” to include the 45 day span which Daniel CLEARLY shows, concerning the CLEAR context of “At that time thy people shall be delivered”. What it is ALL about. Certain understandings can ONLY be obtained if the “Gathering of the Elect” extends over a 45 day span, rather than a single all-encompassing day or event defined by the word rapture, which doe not exist in the Bible. The proof that we will not all be “gathered” at the same exact time is shown in the verse, “the dead in Christ shall rise first”, defining succession. “No man knows the hour or day” does not define to a week, month or year, just hour and day. Daniel shows that there is a 45 day span of the “Gathering of the Elect”, at which time, “no man knows the hour or day” when “THEY” will be taken, DURING this 45 day span. Exo-Biblical “Rapture” confuses this fact and includes the day of the arrival of Jesus light shining over the earth with the same day that we are ALL taken, therefore the “no man knows the hour or day” is erroneously CONNECTED to His arrival. The 45 day anomaly shows otherwise. Therefore the 1,290th day is not seen for what it truly is, being the coming of Jesus and His light shining over the earth, and the death of the beast when Jesus kills him with His light and the Word of His mouth. What else are we waiting for, the easter Bunny? Give me a break. There is ONLY one thing we will be waiting for at this time. Our SALVATION and deliverance, and the death of the beast. The beast is then subsequently “resurrected” as the “image” of the beast by the false prophet/2nd beast, (which has power to GIVE LIFE unto the IMAGE of the beast), which rises up out of the bottomless pit AFTER the 5th trumpet. This is AFTER the 6th Seal, where the “Gathering” of the Elect is clearly shown to have taken place.
    As shown in the end of Daniel 11, just prior to “at that time thy people shall be delivered” in the very beginning of Daniel 12, the beast clearly comes to his end at this exact time. That ONLY happens one way, by Jesus return. Until the beast’s resurrected “IMAGE” is subsequently thrown into a lake of fire at Armageddon 3-1/2 years later. This is the great error of the word rapture, versus “gathering”. The “Gathering of the Elect” therefore appears to be a 45 day span, during which there will be WITNESS on the earth to the fact that Jesus has arrived to send His angels to “GATHER” His Elect from the wrath that follows, that WRATH beginning in the 7th Seal, Chapter 8 of Revelation. But “no man knows the hour or the day” they will be taken. Could be the 1st day, the 1,290th, or it could be the 1,335th day, and anywhere in between. “Blessed is he who waits unto the 1,335th day”, shows we are not all taken in one day. This “Gathering of the Elect” will be the “multitude which no man could number”, seen to take place in Rev 7. The 144,000 will be “Gathered” at Armageddon 3-1/2 years later, is quite clear, when Jesus is shown to finally set foot on the earth, when the “image” of the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and Jesus soon begins His reign on the earth.
    Also, no place is the word “Tribulation” used other that “they which came out of Great Tribulation”. This is in chapter 7 of Revelation, which seems to have escaped the dynamics of this article. Strange, as that defines it’s context. This clearly shows and defines the “Gathering of the Elect” to have taken place, as the “multitude which no man could number” standing before God’s throne, dressed in white robes, clearly stating WHERE they all just came from. Another reason “rapture” confuses the truth. Since “rapture” is not spoken here, people who rarely read the Bible and rely on the shepherd’s words of error, do not recognize this as the “gathering of the Elect”, which it IS. 3-1/2 years later, after God’s WRATH has been poured out, the 144,000 will stand with Jesus at Armageddon, and then be “Gathered” off the earth as well, for a short time.
    A final note concerns another great error of various churches and exo-Biblical doctrine, concerning wether they will be “raptured” out before the antichrist comes. At least two places in scripture prove that the “multitude which no man could number” will be here for the 1st 3-1/2 years of the beast, prior to the arrival of the 2nd beast and resurrected “image” of the beast, whose deadly wound was healed, (The wound comes from Jesus arrival and killing him). The beast during his first 3-1/2 years, will kill 1/4 of mankind. He IS the rider of the 4th horse, the pale horse. “Horus”, the composite of Azazel/Osiris (angel of the bottomless pit) and whatever man he possesses for a time, until Jesus arrives and kills him. (His arm shall be clean withered away and his right eye utterly darkened). Proof that the Elect will be upon the earth during the 1st 3-1/2 years of the beast, which ends with the end of Daniel 11, is clearly seen in Daniel 11 verses 32,33,34 and 35, AFTER the “Abomination which maketh” desolate and “daily sacrifice taken away” in verse 31. So, then count the days after this to 1,290 and you will see Jesus arriving with great power and His light shining out of the east, whereupon He then kills the beast and sends His angels to GATHER His Elect, (He does not kill the “image” of the beast…yet. That is Armageddon 3-1/2 years later). Jesus IS the angel ascending out of the east in Rev 7. Revelation 13:7 also clearly shows that the Elect will be here during the 1st 3-1/2 years. If they were NOT here, then the beast could not make war with them and overcome them. Very simple for those who STUDY the BIBLE, rather than accept exo-Biblcal doctrine. … “Let those who READ understand”.

    • Finally, someone else who “gets” the 45 day window of time within which Yahushua returns to gather the elect to Him in the clouds! How utterly refreshing!

      That 45 day window of time is now knowable as starting on October 2, 2016, and ending on November 16, 2016. I fully explain all this and a lot more in my book, “Making Sense Out of a World Gone Mad: A Roadmap for God’s Elect Living in the Final Days of the End Times.”

      I have read. I understand. Well done. Keep it up.

  • Tracy

    @Geoffrey,
    And we should remember, too, that Jesus Christ, the perfect One, couldn’t please a lot of folks. Strife and confusion, that’s just the way it’s going to be until we get to Heaven.
    Hang in there Geoff and preach the Word.

  • kiwiwatcher

    Slept through most of that but have noticed that Satan has never denied the Scriptures (God’s Word)….only twists the Scriptures.

    Matthew 4:1-11
    “Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, and saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

    Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.”

    For those people prepared to risk the tribulation – (and for anyone currently in their tribulation) – God’s Word says that you will be deluded in that period. For how long – who knows.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
    “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received NOT the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe THE LIE:

    That they ALL might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

  • James Staten

    “Watchman” No cult here. I said it in my last post and I will say it again, there is a reason the apostle Paul wrote half the NT. You and others, by all indications just don’t get. The risen Savior from glory gave him new information which he had never shared in his earthly ministry. You like many today and in scripture are still trying to make Paul prove his apostleship or you refuse to believe black ink on white paper. It appears that you have never studied his mysteries. Paul is the only writer in all of scripture that speaks of the Body of Christ (a mystery) never revealed in the Lord’s earthly ministry. The Catching Away of the Body of Christ (another mystery)…Short Version, there are several more mysteries only given to Paul. http://doctrine.org/pauls-mystery/

    • Watchman is a member of the Hebrew Roots Cult.

      • Richard

        That pretty well sums it up.

    • James, Your repeating your error does not make it any more convincing the second, third or fourth time.

      Yes, you are indeed part of a cult that deviates materially from what the simple word of God says and clearly means. Now you are engaging in a form of gnosticism and magic which amounts to practicing the occult, which the bible strictly forbids. But you and your cult here persist in your multiple errors. Knock yourselves out. You will never grasp the truth that God has sent strong delusion upon your little cult so that you would believe a lie, and so be damned for delighting in unrighteousness and rejecting the truth just as 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 explains quite clearly – to the elect. How would you know if you have been sent strong delusion? That’s just the point: if you have been, you’ll never know it. But the elect will be able to see it for we are of the truth and sacrificial love for our fellow man and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the simple English words of Matthew 24:29-31 reveal that the notion of a pre-trib rapture is nothing but pure nonsense, contradicted by the words of God here.

      • Heather

        Your contempt for the Apostle Paul is quite clear.

        • All that is clear is that God has sent strong delusion upon you. The Apostle Paul may be your idol, but he ain’t mine. I rely on the entirety of scripture, including the very words of Yahushua (Christ) Himself. Play fast and loose with the truth all you like. You’re woman. Easy to deceive. 1 Timothy 2:11-15.

          • Heather

            Well now, I’m certainly not deceived by the likes of you! You are the deception presenting yourself as a minister of righteousness.

            2 Corinthians 11 12-15 KJV
            12) But, what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire ocassion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
            13) For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
            14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
            15) Therfore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as ministers of righteousness; WHOSE END SHALL BE ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

    • Amen!

  • Joe

    Undoubtedly, 1 Peter 2:5,9,10, Revelation 1:6, and Revelation 5:10 all say that believers are “priests,” but dispensational Bible study demands that we ask these two questions: (1) “Who wrote these passages?” and (2) “To whom were these passages written?”

    Answer to Question #1: Obviously, the Apostle Peter wrote 1 Peter (1:1) and the Apostle John wrote the book of the Revelation (1:1).

    Answer to Question #2: Galatians 2:9 says that Peter and John are apostles of Israel. Peter and John are not writing to us Gentiles; they are writing to Jewish believers, the believing remnant of Israel! The Bible verses 1 Peter 2:5,9,10, Revelation 1:6, and Revelation 5:10 are written to Jewish believers. We are Gentiles, not Jews; therefore, these passages do not apply to us.
    God’s message to us as members of the Church the Body of Christ is found in Paul’s 13 epistles, Romans through Philemon. Our doctrine, duty, walk, and destiny as members of the Body of Christ are found in Paul’s epistles alone. The remainder of the Bible focuses on God’s purpose and program for the nation Israel. Christendom refuses to recognize the distinction between Israel’s prophetic program (Acts 3:21) and our mystery program (Romans 16:25); hence the abounding confusion about the Bible.
    So, as Christians, members of the Church the Body of Christ, we are not “priests.” What are we then? We need to go to our apostle, the Apostle Paul: Paul is “the apostle of the Gentiles,” so he is God’s spokesman to us (Romans 11:13; Romans 15:16; 2 Timothy 1:11). Never does Paul use the term “priests” to describe us believers today. *NOTE: Modern Bibles (NIV, NASB, NRSV, ESV, et cetera) insert the word “priest” into Romans 15:16, but was Paul ever a priest? Then, why do modern Bibles say that he was? (Because they are being dishonest!)

    The Apostle Paul speaks of us in 2 Corinthians 5:20 as Christ’s “ambassadors.” An “ambassador” is one sent to a foreign territory to represents his or her homeland. As Christian ambassadors, our lives (should) represent heaven: “For our conversation is in heaven” (Philippians 3:20). Furthermore, we are not a kingdom because Jesus Christ is not our King; He is Israel’s King. Paul wrote that Jesus Christ is our “Head,” the Head of the Church that is His Body (Ephesians 1:22,23; Ephesians 4:15; Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; Colossians 2:19).

    We as members of the Church the Body of Christ are not “a kingdom of priests;” we are “a body of ambassadors.”

    • kiwiwatcher

      True – an ambassador is a representative of a larger organisation and is not always sent to foreign territories. A Representitive – is the primary role.

      Paul in writing 2 Timothy 4.8
      “Henceforth there is laid up for me a CROWN of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

      John says to members of the Church Smyrma
      Revelation 2:10
      “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a CROWN of life.

      There are several other crowns too, but it looks like a change taking place, otherwise its ambassadors wearing crowns – which doesn’t seem right.

    • Finally someone who knows how to rightly divide their Bible! Amen! The whole Bible was written for us, but only part of it TO us, as gentiles!

  • Joe, your theory might work if this weren’t true:
    John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:4-6
    Oh yes, I wear many hats 🙂 He loved me and washed me in his blood and made me a king and priest unto God and his Father. Hallelujah!

    • Joe

      1 Peter 2:5,9: “Ye also,…a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,…a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.” Let us look at the Old Testament parallel passage, Exodus 19:5-6 KJV: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” These words were clearly spoken to Israel. Peter simply repeated to Israel what God told them through Moses many centuries before. Notice how the word “nation” appeared in Exodus chapter 19 and 1 Peter chapter 2. Again, is the Church the Body of Christ a nation? No, but Israel is a nation! See, the Bible makes perfect sense if we use it God’s way.

  • Gordonswife

    Geoffrey, I agree with what you have written about Rev 5 and us being there singing. My adult son asks the question: could those people be 2,000 years of dead saints only? I don’t know how to answer that.

    • No, they do not receive their bodies until the Rapture. John saw people, not only souls.

  • Walter Mintz

    202 comments? You may have to follow up on this, Geoffrey!

  • James Staten

    Thanks, Geoffrey.

    • Heather

      God bless you Brother James for standing for the truth of the teachings from the Apostle Paul!

  • James

    When Joseph reveals himself to his brothers he already has a Gentile Bride.

  • Skywatcher

    Geoffrey, I just sent a letter of apology for the world to see, and it was blocked! That’s real kind of ya!

    • I didn’t block anything, we have been doing major code upgrades since 9:30PM EST this evening. Trying sending it again.

      • Skywatcher

        To Geoffrey, and ALL on this site, I had as previously posted, written an apology and for some reason, it was blocked. Again, as you can see, I have been blocked:
        Block details

        Your IP: 24.222.246.233
        URL: www.nowtheendbegins.com/wp-comments-post.php
        Your Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/41.0
        Block ID: EXPVP15
        Block reason: Exploit attempt denied by virtual patching (level 2).
        Time: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:12:13 -0400
        Server ID: cp14006

  • So if the Lord was willing to go to the Tribulation at the time Stephen was murdered by stoning had Israel believed his teachings for what purpose did the Lord give Daniel the prophecy about the statue of gold, silver, bronze, iron and feet of mixed iron and clay?
    Daniel’s prophecy was about all the kingdoms which were to rule up to the and through the Tribulation.

  • vince ross

    Watchman, you say my notion of smoothing over our differences is not of God? I simply stated that we all have to be careful and not let the devil divide us, our fight is not with our Brother and our Sister! Does the Bible not say our fight is not against flesh but against principalities? The spiritual? I simply stated we should preach the good news, not tear each other down. The time we spend arguing is time we could spend preaching salvation! We are Bigger that that! We are children of the Most High! We serve a Wonderful Father! Praise be to Him! But that is OK with me Watchman, you are still a Brother in Christ no matter what our differences of opinion may be! If you have accepted Jesus as your personal savior, than were good!!!!! God Bless you Brother! and Thank you Skywatcher for your kind words!

    • Vince, I am merely teaching that God’s word commands us to bring correction to Biblical errors of doctrine. This is the contending earnestly for the one true faith that Jude 3 speaks to. The New Testament is filled with warnings of false teachers, false prophets, false Christs and doctrines of devils which will creep into the body of Christ and multiple commandments to rebuke and expose them when they surface for what they are. Ephesians 5:11 states just this quite clearly.

      God is a God of impeccable, pure, unassailable truth. The devil is the father of lies. The spiritual battle raging in all our lives is a battle between truth and lies and in 2015, the lies seem to have won the war hands down. But fear not, the war is not yet over. Once Christ returns late next year, the tables will be turned forever and righteousness and truth will emerge victorious. We all know how the story ends. Good prevails over evil – forever. Therefore, all true followers of Christ are of the truth and will passionately contend for that which is true, as revealed by God’s word, and no other source. The words are simple and straightforward. God’s truths are not complex and convoluted. But they are unintelligible to the non-elect nonbeliever. The so-called body of Christ is hideously polluted and corrupted with such non-elect nonbelievers posing as believers. Getting along with them requires a person to sell out Biblical truth to lies that tickle people’s egos and ears. God’s word commands us to come out and live apart from them: to become a set-apart and holy people and to stand for truth until Christ returns.

      You, vince, are arguing for something that conflicts with this Biblical teaching. You are arguing to create the illusion of unity by burying very serious doctrinal differences which reveal to a lost world that organized religion has no answers to life’s real questions. And you know what?” They’re right. All forms of organized religion are, and always have been, demonic. This is easily revealed by picking up a Bible and reading it from beginning to end with an open mind to let the Holy Spirit inform your spirit of God’s truths. Then compare those objective Biblical truths to any form of organized religion’s teachings and practices and be amazed at the differences and sharp contradictions. This is evidence of the falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which has already happened in these final days of the great tribulation which self-deceived “Christians” who vigorously cling to the nonsense of a pre-trib rapture notion, wishfully seek to deny.

      Imagine the profound anger and sense of utter betrayal Vince, when the gathering of Matthew 24:30-31 occurs and you’re left behind. What will you do with that sense of betrayal and anger, Vince? What then? Is such betrayal loving, kind, selfless and courageous? No Vince, it is none of those things. It is of the devil, pure and simple and no soothing words will ever alter this harsh reality. Truth matters. And the pre-trib rapture notion is NOT of the truth in the least. Any honest person can see this.

  • crimson

    SO True. Daniel proves the Sovereignty of GOD. He is in control and knows the end from the beginning. And it is HE that appoints rulers and kingdoms. He is in control of all things. The FACTS are God knows the end from the beginning. HE IS SOVEREIGN. OMNIPOTENT OMNIPRESENT OMNISCIENT. The only POTENTATE. The Israel and no church is a ruckmanite teaching. Many of the Ruckmanite teachings are teachings from rabbinical jesuits. (2 sides of the same coin) They infiltrated our seminaries, publishing houses, pulpits and govt. That is why so much confusion exists. The counter-reformation never ended. And is working. APOSTASY. The TRUTH is Only Jesus Christ. Trust in the LORD Jesus is the simplicity of the GOSPEL on which you should stand. Not in teachers who scratch itchy ears.

  • Amber

    “When we all get to Heaven, what a Day of Rejoicing that will be! When we all see Jesus, we’ll Sing and Shout the Victory!”

    I have been a Believer in Jesus since I was 5. I’m now almost 36. Praise the Lord for His great salvation!

    After reading almost all of these comments, I’m more informed, humored, upset, and just ready for whatever God is teaching us, His kids.

    Goodness, let’s just choose to Agree on what is plainly in Scripture ~ He is coming back!

    We Don’t know exactly when. Has He returned yet? No! So, we have a Job to do. Get the Words of Christ out to a Lost and Dying world.

    If you & I are Saved, we need to be about His Business! Not arguing theology. Believe me, I want to be 100% sure about the Rapture and all End Time events, but I’m not.

    I have been studying it closely these past few years, because of so much prophecy and all in the news lately. But, there are still many mysteries.

    Let’s choose to Love one another. They will know we are Disciples, of Jesus, by our Love.

    In Christ,

    Amber Baker

  • Joe, in the old testament they were spoken to Israel. Number one, the promises are yes and amen to us in Christ Jesus, our Lord. Number two, you don’t know that I’m not a Messianic Jew 🙂

  • James Staten

    “Watch” ..if you refuse to look at Paul, then it is obvious you will never listen to me. If I told you everything that the Lord has done in my life over the last twenty-four years, in my life and in ministry, you wouldn’t believe me. It would sound like I was bragging. The Lord has done so many things that I live my life most of the time as if I am an only child. The truth is I have lived long enough now to realize that it’s not that I know Him, but that He knows me!!!! Praise the Lord

    • James, Once again, you and your Cabalistic cult here choose to twist what I write and do not write and claim the precise opposite of what I so clearly say and mean. That, in a word, is dishonest. Dishonesty is a mark of the4 devil, and not the l;east bit of Christ.

      Paulo himself urged the Corinthians to not make an idol out of him, Cephas (Peter) or Apollos. Yet 2,000 years later, you persist in that same error. I am quite familiar with Paul’s writings and I seek to imitate him in my walk with God. but my source of truth is the entirety of the Bible from beginning to end, reading each verse in the context in which it is written, to whom and under what historical and cultural circumstances.

      Your claims of miracles in your life proves nothing. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that they happened. Demons are capable of healing, levitation and other paranormal activities. So miracles and events in your life, in and of themselves prove nothing. Your revealed character manifests who and whose you are. If you are of the truth, agape love, humility and teachability, you manifest the tell-tale traits of the truly born again elect. If you are of the lie, are deceived, cling tenaciously to doctrines that contradict what the word of God clearly says and means, and do so with pride bordering on mean-spirited hostility directed toward anyone who has the temerity to suggest you might be in error, then you clearly are not a true follower of Christ, but a self-deceived poser or worse.

      Many who practice the occult and witchcraft praise the Lord and God and even false Christs and Jesuses of their own overly creative imaginations. The Mormon Church is a perfect illustration of this latter fraud and con job. The words are deceiving. But YHWH and Yahushua, the one true God and His son are not mocked, nor are they fooled.

      As for me and my house, we serve YHWH and Yahushua and reject all other false gods who amount to demon spirits, liars and thieves.

      You, James, have engaged in sophistry and deceit here. Your feet reveal your true character and who you truly belong to. When feet move in the opposite direction to a man’s lips, I know he’s lying. From that point on, such a man has no credibility with me ever again unless he fully confesses and repents for his treachery and deceit. I seriously doubt that you will own up to any of this. I’ve seen the pattern endless times before. It’s quite predictable. Prove me wrong this time.

  • James Staten

    Bro Geoffrey, No thank you. I have been coming to your site for a long time, but over the last six months even more. Keep Looking Up, James

  • James Staten

    Tommy, I am glad you like it. Doc Samdahl and I over the last couple of years have gotten to know each other a little bit. We have exchanged a lot of e-mails. He is seminary trained, but he heard an old cattle Rancher on TV one day explain the Pauline Epistles, and he said it all went boom, an eureka moment, everything fell into place. I told him a couple of months ago that I was posting his site on different blogs, and that I was going to work him till Jesus Comes!!! Keep Looking Up, James

  • WATCHMAN ABOUT TO FALL

    “Finally, someone else who “gets” the 45 day window of
    time within which Yahushua returns to gather the elect
    to Him in the clouds! How utterly refreshing!
    That 45 day window of time is now knowable as starting
    on October 2, 2016, and ending on November 16, 2016.
    I fully explain all this and a lot more in my book, “Making
    Sense Out of a World Gone Mad: A Roadmap for God’s
    Elect Living in the Final Days of the End Times.”
    I have read. I understand. Well done ”

    I don’t think that I have read so much utter NONSENSE
    than the posts that you continually claim to be biblical !
    If the book that you consistently try to pass off is anything
    resembling your posts, make good use of it on a cold night
    and burn it !….You would save on fuel bills, and we wouldn’t
    have to listen to you about your book any more !

    It’s a win/win situation and would be much appreciated !

    Thanks in advance !

    • Heather

      LOL:) Actually one of his readers left a comment on Amazon stating most of the trouble she had with the book was that he talked alot about himself. Imagine that.
      Honestly, with that brazen attitude, he reminds me of Gaston from Beauty and the Beast.

  • Richard

    On and on it goes. The pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, rapture of the church is one of those hot items. I’m guessing that after the tribulation is over and the rule of Christ Jesus on the earth for 1000 years starts, there will still be those who will be fighting over this. HA!!!!! But wait! There are some who say there is no rule of Christ on the earth for 1000 years. What a hoot.

  • Heather

    It’s going to be very interesting being at the Judgment Seat of Christ, that is for sure. I confess, my anger with Mr Book Boy on here, Watchman, was not over his personal view of the timing of the Rapture. It was over his condescending attitude towards others on here, which was almost everyone.

    • kiwiwatcher

      You did remarkably well Heather. Don’t think I could have kept myself together as well as you did. After the first few posts – I just could not read them any further. Bizarre is nicest description I can think of.

      Unfortunately, this type of anti-Spiritual behaviour will increase. There is quite a deceptive spirit lurking out there in cyberland and it appears to be growing in strength.

      Psalms 39:7
      And now, Lord, what wait I for? my hope is in thee.

      • Heather

        Notice how he did not mess with you. I seriously dought he will ever challenge Bro Nick again..

  • Paula Turner

    I take issue with your comment that God had a “back-up plan” because the Jews rejected Christ. He is a sovereign and omnipotent God who had a plan from the beginning, and He KNEW the Jews would reject his plan, just as He knew that we would accept or reject his Son.

    • Suez

      Paula Turner. Amen sister, I thought that comment was quite offensive to the Lord also. God had a plan from the beginning, and it will be carried out, just as he wills it! He is able to do anything, and everything he wants. I couldn’t believe it, when I read that stupid comment, yet many just sucked it up, as though it was the gospel truth….dumb sheep. God help us all, in spite of our stupidity, and God help those who depend on the word of a man, instead of reading the Letter for themselves!!! God Bless you Paula! 🙂

  • James Staten

    “watch’…to paraphrase Mark Twain. He said “every man is entitled to at least one insanity” Need we say more!!!!!

  • James Staten

    “watch” ..so your speaking of a hard-on is being Christ like or following Paul. Really!!!!

  • Hi Geoffrey you are absolute right concerning rapture, I believed it because the Holy Spirit show me these things, He is my teacher, another bible verse He show me as to when the church would be rapture (not a date) but when the church will be rapture is Gal 4:1 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
    If you read this verse slowly and ask the H/S guidance you will see the following keywords are important
    1.deliver us (other meanings from the greek – deliver, pluck out, rescue.)
    2. from this present evil world (we are in a despensation now, which is called church despensation, “world” greek meaning – age)
    Paul is using the word dispensation about 4 times
    1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed to me.
    Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    Ephesians 3:2 If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

    In Col 1:25 Paul actually is saying he has the final say about the gospel and included the rapture

    Tell me what you think I will aprreciated it

    Love in Him

  • James Staten

    Peter Porter, Excellent point. Praise the Lord

  • LOGICALLYNCLINDE

    This pretrib rapture is false. Stop believing in 3 different comings of Jesus. Everybody will experience great tribulation. Jesus already came once and the last time will be with the last trumpet. The book of Revelations are talking to 7 Churches so what makes you think your the Church that has this fake pretrib rapture? It does not add up because if you read all of the scripture John said to the churches the it doesn’t make since for a pretrib rapture. How can you chose what church fits you in Revelation? Did somebody tell you that’s the Church you belong to or what? You can’t pick and chose what church you think you belong to. All these false rapture teachings are read out of context and given you false hope that you will not have to shed your blood for Jesus’s name. Well I am sorry to say but you will have to go threw tribulations and you will be persecuted and die for his name. Your being brain washing to beleive you won’t be starring at the barrel of a gun or end of a knife and asked do you renounce the name of Jesus. If you do you will get the mark that’s where you will lose your life forever. Not the first death but the second. Free your mind from that false teaching because a lot of beleivers will lose their soul for not preparing to die for Jesus Christ in those days. Read revelation yourself and ask how do I know this is the Church that you belong too. What man on earth says that is the Church you belong too. The pretribulation rapture makes no sense if you read the bible and the context of the scripture not just a verse here and a verse there.

    • THeGreatTroy

      LOGICALLYNCLINDE,

      You need to Read and Study your Bible.

  • I like this site very much. I have learned a lot. Will continue to follow this. Thanks

  • A question is have is this:
    Jesus stated that like it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
    They were eating drinking … . When the Tribulation starts, I guess the people won’t be having so much fun.
    Jesus also took Lot and Noah as a reference, they were saved from tribulation, they didn’t die.

    Maybe there will be a pre-rapture, but only the watchful and prepared servants, like the 5 virgins with their lamps. 10 Were watchful but only 5 ready.

    But what bothers me is the fact, that the “Elite” promotes a pre-trib-rapture. That does not add up. Satan can not tell the truth. Why would Hollywood tell us the truth? They would want to deceive us.

    This passage on the other hand actually may promote a rapture after the seals …

    Revelation 7.9-10
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    Could this be the Church in heaven? Palms – also very symbolic.

    Revelation 7.14
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    I am really uncertain about this .. but the way the church looks like now, some tribulation would be the right thing.
    We need to man up and face danger.

    Anyone any thoughts on this?

  • 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: “[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Note how the Apostle Paul wrote that he was writing about a “mystery” (verse 51). It was not an event in Israel’s prophetic program. It was a “mystery,” something kept secret until Jesus Christ first revealed it to the Apostle Paul (cf. Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:1-5; Colossians 1:25-27). No apostles or prophets prior to Paul wrote about what he proceeded to discuss in the above passage. This is more proof that this coming of the Lord Jesus Christ was not His Second Coming in wrath to conclude the seven-year Tribulation, for, years or centuries before Paul was even converted, the Old Testament prophets, and even Jesus in His earthly ministry, spoke of His Second Coming (Job 19:25-27; Daniel 2:44; Joel 2:15-17; Zechariah 4:1-4; Matthew 24:27-31; Mark 13:26-37; Luke 21:27-36; Jude 14-15; et al.). The coming of Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:51ff. was a special coming, one kept secret until Paul learned it from the resurrected, ascended, and glorified Jesus Christ, and then wrote about it in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians.

    Today, Father God is currently forming the Church the Body of Christ by the Gospel of the Grace of God. When no one else wants to rely exclusively on the Lord Jesus Christ’s dying for our sins, shedding His sinless blood, His burial to put away our sins, and His resurrection to give us a right standing before God (1 Corinthians 15:3-4; cf. Romans 4:24-25); God will conclude our Dispensation of Grace and return to Israel’s program, resuming it where He paused it nearly 20 centuries ago. When the Church the Body of Christ is caught up into heaven, there will be one trumpet emitting at least two sounds; one sound to call the deceased Christians to life in new bodies, and the other blast to transform and assemble the living Christians in new bodies, so they can all be brought up into heaven with Jesus Christ. In contrast, the book of the Revelation involves seven angels and seven trumpets, and they involve God’s wrath on sinful mankind, particularly the nation Israel. The Rapture involves God causing a trumpet sound; angels are blowing trumpets and causing some of the judgments described in the Revelation. No thoughtful Bible student could ever honestly conclude that the language of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is even remotely connected to the events of the seven-year Tribulation. The terms are different and should not be confused, or we will become confused.

    To cause the Church the Body of Christ to endure most or all of the seven-year Tribulation is to completely ignore the dispensational nature of the Bible. It is to completely confuse the purpose of the seven-year Tribulation with what God is currently operating today in our Dispensation of Grace. It is to confuse the nation Israel with the Church the Body of Christ. It is to muddle up and obscure the simple Bible truths associated with the glorious catching up of the Church the Body of Christ. It is to “wrest the Scriptures” (2 Peter 3:15-16), to destroy the simplicity and clarity of the Holy Bible. May we guard against such Bible mishandling, and may we rejoice in God’s pure Word!

  • I also thought about the tribulation being there for Israel, when the Antichrist will stand in the temple an tell the people to worship him, they will then see that the Bible and Jesus being the Messiah are true.
    Another chance for them to turn to the Lord.

  • jason

    This man is just one of the majority of today’s Christianity in this country that preaches false ear tickling demonic doctrine that Luke warm Christians in this country wish to beleieve. There saved therefore they can continue living there fake American dreams. Then be called up to heaven by our God without facing persecution or execution, that’s exactly what Satan wants a bunch of fat lazy complacent believers. These Christians are the same sort that say calling for repentance of fellow brothers and sisters or telling the world without Jesus there is only hell is being judgemental. They don’t want to hear truth they only want to hear what makes them feel good so they don’t have to think about such things. Well time to wake up people because that persecution Christ told us not to fear is gonna hit home very soon, and when it does I pray you don’t fold and break because of this brainwashing demonic indoctrination!

  • Jason you are right about most of what you write. However, concerning the persecution of the faithful, I don’t know where you’ve been because we have less than 10 months to go before the great tribulation of Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 comes to an END!! Many of us have endured extensive persecution already. Those who have not, are not likely to be of the elect.

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  • Far be it from me to cause dissent. Far be it from me Lord. For my eyes have seen thy salvation and the Word of God lives. Your Son, the Holy one of Israel, lives in me. The Mystery of the age. Colossians 1:22-27

    This same Jesus of Nazareth breathed on His disciples. His first act as the NEW MAN. WHY oh ye christian men? Tell me why? Yeshua’s brothers should know! Tell me why? You can’t, so I’ll tell you. He breathed on them to fuse the spirit of God with the spirit of man, never to be separated again. God needs man, we are His abode, we are His heart’s desire. Jesus said so in John 10:34 and Psalms 82:6. The Pharisees were right by saying only God could forgive sin, but so was Yeshua Jesus our salvation. For the next act he did was give us the POWER TO FORGIVE SIN. John 20:22

    God has been sitting inside man & reproducing Himself as the new man now for 2000 plus years, The new creation.

    Shuva Adoni, reve vot al fay Israel. Return oh Lord to the thousands of families of Isreal

    I am a Hebrew, as my father before me. I am a son of the Most High God. He redeemed me by the blood of the Lamb. For Blessed is He that takes away the sin of the world. My name is Chilqiyyah for my portion is Yah. Yah gives life and this life is the light of men. My fellow man of Israel, hear these words today. Jesus of Nazareth came to find the Lost sheep of Israel. Do not be separated by doctrines.

    The holy ones of Israel were raised as Jesus descended into hell. He led captivity captive. These holy ones presented themselves by the Law to the Chief Priest, Caiaphas.

    Let us eat from the tree of Life. Let us not eat from the tree of Knowledge. If we eat from the tree of Life, all things will be given to us. If we eat from the Tree of Knowledge, it leads to death and destruction.

    As for me and my House, we will worship the Lord and Him only will we serve. My spirit longs for you Lord, as a parched vessel in a dry land. Hurry Lord, for my spirit wearies. Come though almighty King, o’er us salvation bring…

    Let the Lawlessone be made known so the Sons of God will be revealed.

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  • Michael

    When read in context all of this pre-trip debate goes away. It is when you take things out of context you can create any kind of doctrine you want. To say John is a type of church is stretching it way to far. As far as I am concerned until you can tell where in the bible it says there is 2 last trumps then this is a mute point. Ok, you brought up 2 points in 2 verses that is always used out of context. But 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 states at the last trump. Ok how many last trumps do we need. I in Rev and one here. I think i your going to draw radical conclusions, such as John is a type of church, I would say go with the logical: There the same one. Point number 2 of that one in Corinthians is the dead will rise. Well from Rev we know there is one for the believers, before the 1000 years. Then there is the one for the damned at the end. It didnt say anything about a 3 or 4th one. If you still refute that then I guess when they were threw in the lions den that was a type of rapture too. I pray you wake up soon.

    • Michael, there is no mention of the church on earth after John is called up until Jesus returns and “the armies which were in heaven -IN HEAVEN – followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:14. If we are twisting scripture for a rapture, you are ignoring it for a trump!

  • Michael

    I am not being ugly, but lets stay on track. Rather than diverting to another question lets see if anyone can argue the point I made previously. There is no mention of 3 or 4 resurrections. The last trump is: well it is listed above.

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  • michael

    Andreas I really don’t mean to be ugly but there is no pre-trib rapture. I read the bible. People who believe that pre-trib rapture are being spoon fed that mess. I used to believe that until I read the bible. They only way people can believe that is to take a verse out of context and make it out to be what they want. When read in context it doesn’t mean the same thing. I could probably take many verses out of context and run with it and make a false doctrine as sooooo many are today like (oh its your best day: god wants you to be rich, etc). This falls right along with that. So many are deceived. I read my bible and not just a verse here and there. There is a rapture in the bible but in context it says at the last trump. Well in revelations there is also a “last trump. Well that along with 2 resurrections (not three) it doesn’t mesh. smash it together take it out and it doesn’t matter. In context it doesn’t say a pre-trib rapture. I would advise in the lateness of the hour to start praying hard for what is coming. He also said pray that your able to stand before the son of man. I would read your bible and not verses. Read that whole chapter. Not 1 or 2 verses.

  • DDRAKE

    No place in the Bible is the word “Rapture” used, nor is there anywhere that the word “Pre-tribulation” is used. So to ADD this to the Book of Revelation, adds the plagues that are written therein. One thing is certain. Those standing before the throne of God suddenly, in Rev. 7, “came out of great tribulation”. Can not come out of something you are not in. These are obviously those who were upon the earth and IN tribulation, as it says. This means they are the Elect that had to have been GATHERED by Jesus’ angels. It explains this clearly. There are those who would rather add fog, than to see what is present. The angel rising out of the east has to be Jesus. No? Remember something called the “transfiguration”. Jesus can take on the form of power, otherwise known as an angel. “HIS” angel is HIM, in that form. Enoch describes the fact that angels appear as flames of fire, but can assume the FORM of a man whenever they wish. When Jesus “sends” His angel in Rev 1, there is no other personage but Him. No angel would be called the first and the last. So it has to be Jesus Himself. TRANSFIGURED. So much for the non-existant “Pre-tribulation Rapture”. The “gathering of the Elect” is the definition the Bible gives. There is a big difference. A “rapture” leads one to think of a one moment event, encompassing ALL. Clearly, the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. So this shows that we are not all taken at the same time, as the word “rapture” suggests. In fact, Daniel describes a 45 day span that can be argued as the span of time that the “Gathering of the Elect” takes. Funny how words that are not in the Bible have crept in to obscure the TRUE meanings, and have hidden them from the People. Yet People continue to act as if these things are written. Building upon them. Such a great error.

  • Mike

    Enjoyed the reading and well written (loved your sense of humor – one example “flat tire” – every now an then). Wish more can mix and mingle different parts of the bible and put them all together like you did. Makes sense the bible should be like your body with all pieces needing to work correctly all together to get the final result.

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  • Benny

    Who the 24 elders represent isn’t important if no one can prove that John’s body literally left the earth in Rev. 4. It’s more than interesting that the eminent scholars quoted in “Famous Rapture Watchers” (Google) never saw a literal rapture in Rev. 4! Israel isn’t literally mentioned in the trib chapters either, but of course the diehards “see” her there!

  • Emery Richards

    There exists in the inspired word of God, NO MENTION OF ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY BEING A “RAPTURE”. It’s a false teaching, and a MASSIVE misunderstanding of everything to do with the New Testament. The ENTIRE NT was penned BY, and addressed TO, the holy spirit annointed 144,000 adopted sons of God, the first of which were the apostles and disciples that were VISIBLY holy spirit annointed. They are the ONLY ones ever to go to heaven, but must be resurrected as SPIRIT BEINGS, since we HAVE NO IMMORTAL SOUL. The NT was NOT addressed to ANYONE ELSE. Every command was to them. Every teaching was to them. FROM GOD. The New Covenant, made the night before Jesus was killed, was made WITH THEM and NO ONE ELSE. The great crowd that no man was able to number, includes ONLY those who associate with, work with, and who support the still living remnant of the 144,000. That remnant is also referred to in God’s word as the “faithful and discreet slave”.

    Now getting back to Revelation, it speaks of those still alive just before the final battle being “taken up into the clouds” to be with Jesus. It applies ONLY TO THAT STILL LIVING REMNANT, and NOT to ANYONE ELSE. Jesus started NO CHURCH, so to say it’s some fictitious rapture “of the church” is even more insulting to God and to Jesus. Jesus taught AGAINST CHURCHES, calling them “false religion”, and “works of the flesh”, and “Babylon the Great”. Teaching other such falsehoods DOES make one God’s ENEMY, and makes them also ANTICHRIST. Believing in such false teachings as anything a sect of Christendom teaches is also absurd, stupid, nonsensical, and shows NO INDEPENDENT THOUGHT, and shows no independent STUDY of God’s word. His word CLEARLY teaches what I’ve posted herein. If one DOES NOT STUDY GOD’S WORD, then one is relying on OTHER MEN to tell them what God’s word says. It means other men tell you WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK. Is that wise? NEVER!!!

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  • MonkeyDLuffy3:16

    Amen. About time I find a solid ground for pre trib. Tribulations is the continuation of the 70 weeks of Daniel , the 70th week. It wasn’t for the church because the church never existed back then lol so simple. Also there seems to be a flaw with those who don’t believe in pre trib because Galatians 1:8-9 and Revealations 14:6 contradicts each other 😀

  • SeEker

    In Revelation 5 it is the 24 elders singing the new song and saying they will reign on the earth (“we” in kjv and “they” in niv)I, the multitude isn’t mentioned until after the 6th seal is opened (probable time of the rapture), how do you explain that and why twist scripture like that?

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  • Grace

    Hi,
    Am curious about your thoughts of the rapture of the 144,000 Jews in Rev 14:1 and those who come to Christ because of their witness and are “harvest”ed or no doubt raptured in Rev 14:14-16
    Or are the 144,000 martyred and the harvest from their work is Rev:14-16?

    • Emery

      Grace;
      The scriptures do not speak of any rapture. What false religion mistakenly claims is a rapture is the remnant of the 144,000 still alive at the end of the tribulation being taken to heaven after transformation into spirit beings, as Jesus, God, and the angels are spirit beings. These 144,000 are actually the ONLY ones who are spirit begotten, baptized with holy spirit, as was Jesus, who was the first such annointed. No one else but the 144,000 will see heaven, since flesh cannot enter heaven and we have no immortal soul, which is a pagan Babylonian religious belief, NOT a scriptural teaching.
      Jesus Christ was spiritually begotten at the time of his baptism and was resurrected from the dead to life in the spirit on Nisan 16, 33 C.E., the day of the year on which the firstfruits of the first grain crop were presented before Jehovah at the sanctuary. He is, therefore, called the firstfruits, being actually the first firstfruits to God. (1Co 15:20, 23; 1Pe 3:18) The faithful followers of Jesus Christ, his spiritual brothers, are also a firstfruits to God, but not the primary firstfruits, being similar to the second grain crop, the wheat, which was presented to Jehovah on the day of Pentecost. They number 144,000 and are called the ones “bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” and “certain firstfruits of his creatures.”—Re 14:1-4; Jas 1:18.
      The apostle Paul also speaks of the faithful Jewish remnant who became the first Christians as being “firstfruits.” (Ro 11:16) The Christian Epaenetus is called “a firstfruits of Asia for Christ” (Ro 16:5), and the household of Stephanas “the firstfruits of Achaia.”—1Co 16:15.
      Since the anointed Christians are begotten by the spirit as sons of God with the hope of resurrection to immortality in the heavens, they are said during their lifetime on earth to “have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit . . . while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.” (Ro 8:23, 24) Paul says that he and fellow Christians with hopes of life in the spirit have “the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit,” which he also says is “a token in advance of our inheritance.”—2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13, 14.

      • Grace

        Emery,
        Yes, there are references to rapture in several places. Jesus Christ was spiritually begotten in the womb of Mary. He came from the Father. I don’t know where you are getting that the 144,000 are spiritually begotten. There is no scripture to support that.
        There are far too many arguments to be made against what your wrote. What is your religion? To which branch of Christianity to you belong?

        • Emery

          Grace;
          There exist NO mentions of any rapture in the scriptures. Not a single solitary one. Jesus was begotten millions or billions of years ago by God the father. He was BORN as a human in Mary’s womb over two thousand years ago. He was holy spirit annointed right after John baptized him in the Jordan river around 30 a.d. The entire 144,000 are holy spirit annointed by God as chosen to be His adopted sons, and co-heirs, co-kings, and co-rulers and judges with Jesus in the Kingdom government in heaven, ruling over the entire Kingdom, and over Earth. There are no “arguments” unless one doesn’t understand God’s word, against what I’ve said. Since most cannot understand His word, as Satan has veiled the meaning of them from the unbelievers, who are anyone who is part of the world or a religion or not part of the very small group on Earth who do the ENTIRE will of God, all the time. I have no religion other than what Jesus taught, the “one true faith”. There are no branches of Christianity. The ONLY Christianity is the one true faith. Any so called religion CLAIMING to be Christian is lying. They are neither a religion or christian, since only ONE real religion exists, the one true faith. And it’s not a religion of man or a church, it’s a faith and it’s love of God and of His son and complete obedience to them both. And part of that obedience is KNOWING exactly what God’s word really says, preaching it, warning everyone about the coming Kingdom government, and sanctifying God’s personal name. To be part of a religion is to disobey God, excluding that one from the small group who the scriptures say are the believers. And I DON’T want to hear any baloney from any religion or any falsely translated “version” of God’s word. There are no “versions” of it that are accurate. God inspired NO translations of His word. Almost ALL existing translations are completely falsely translated. Blame it on Satan, it’s his fault.

          • Fernando

            OH wow a lot of made up rubbish from a lot of yous lol

          • Emery

            Fernando, I probably have shoes older than you, and yet, this is how you speak to your elders? NOT ACCEPTABLE. I will tell you that NOTHING I’ve posted, or EVER posted, is “made up rubbish”. What religions, ALL OF THEM, teach, however, IS made up rubbish. None teach much that is scriptural, and what they do teach is altered greatly. So if you’re going to be on this site, BEHAVE and no attacks or bad behavior. Understand? I hope so.

          • Fernando

            Emery I don’t care how old you are, I’m not going to respect a person just because of there age.
            Where in the bible does it say that Jesus was begotten millions or billions of years ago? And where does it say that the 144,000 are Holy Spirit anointed ? Do you not believe that Jesus is God? Also the pre-trib rapture is doctrine, it’s impossible to debate against.

          • Emery

            Fernando;
            Not caring about those your elder is to disobey scriptural teachings. And to not respect ALL other than yourself is ALSO to disrespect what God teaches us through His inspired word. Where does it say how old Jesus (the Word) is? IN THE SCRIPTURES. Where else? Genesis is a good place to start, but it indicates this in MANY different places in the scriptures. It seems you know little about God’s word, but know a LOT about the teachings of religions, even though God’s word says to have NOTHING to do ever, with any religion of man. This does explain why you make the comments you make, and why you aren’t familiar with what God teaches. Where does it say the 144,000 are holy spirit annointed? The ENTIRE NT says it. The entire NT was WRITTEN by those of the annointed 144,000, and is ADDRESSED to all who are so annointed. EVERY WORD OF IT. And why would I believe what religion teaches, over what God’s word teaches? That’s just suicide. Jesus is not God, God is not Jesus. God is GOD THE ALMIGHTY, meaning THE MIGHTIEST. No one equal to Him. NO ONE. And there is no teaching anywhere in God’s word about ANY rapture. It’s a religious teaching, NOT a scriptural teaching. It’s a lie. There is no “rapture” of any kind, much of any “church”. You must be using a KJV or the like, and you must be part of a religion of mankind, not the religion Jesus taught, the “one true faith”, which is NOT A CHURCH, it’s a faith in him and in God and in God’s word. NOT in a translation of it, but in God’s inspired word. The KJV is not inspired by God. It’s a translation of God’s word, and a VERY inaccurate one at that, as are most. And you speak of “doctrine”. Whose doctrine are you referring to? What you mentioned is a doctrine of RELIGION, not any teaching in God’s inspired word. My guess is that you’re Catholic, based on your name. If so, I am sorry for you if you believe them. But the RCC doesn’t teach any rapture doctrines. It’s mostly a doctrine of the so-called “born again” religions. And none are “born again”, only the 144,000 are.

          • Fernando

            Emery,
            Hahahaha it’s funny how you try to guess my denomination but you end up embarrassing yourself lol. I belong to no denomination.
            Also you talk a big game saying you read the bible and understand it well but you completely ignore and contradict yourself because the bible clearly states in 1Timothy3:16 God was manifest in the flesh……simple as that also in 1 John 5:7 three that bare record in heaven the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one….. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand, God is not the author of confusion. Now tell me what does your religion say about this lol
            God provides what we need, God has a perfect book already given to us but I don’t want to go into that because I don’t want to waste my time.
            Also where did these 144,000 people come from?

          • Emery

            No Fernando, I don’t “embarrass myself” since I am not haughty. I don’t ever get embarrassed. And claiming falsely that you belong to no denomination holds no water. All of your comment is filled with the teachings of Catholicism and Christendom, the fake Christian religions of mankind. None of what you posted is scriptural. And I “talk no game” at all. this isn’t a game. Maybe to you it is, and that’s your downfall in God’s eyes. You think this is a game. I don’t “ignore and contradict” myself, since that’s not possible. The 1 Timothy 3:16 quote of yours does not say God was made manifest in the flesh as you lyingly claim. All it shows is that you don’t understand the scriptures, especially that one. It shows that Satan’s veiling of the meaning of the scriptures from the unbelievers is quite effective on you. It shows that you are an unbeliever, which is also evident in that you are not one of God’s people. You are not one of the great crowd. Nothing unusual in that, since most are not. You have a LOT of company. Your mention of the 1 John quote shows that you use a false translation of God’s word, meaning you don’t even know what the inspired word of God says, since you don’t have a copy of it. The 1 John quote does not say that God is his own son either, neither does it show that the son is the Father, and no “ghost” exists in the word of God. The word did not exist in the first century. No concept existed at that period of time of a “ghost”. God’s spirit is not a ghost. Where did the annointed come from? From all nations, tongues, and peoples. They are firstfruits from mankind, adopted by God to be co-kings with the Christ, ruling the Kingdom with the Christ, in heaven for a thousand years of judgement day. What kind of question is that? Obviously one showing again that you do NOT know the word of God, nor even have a copy of it. Using a KJV will cause you to lose your life in the end of this system of things.

          • Fernando

            Your so brainwashed. None of your reply comes with scripture to prove me wrong. All you say is i read from a different translation? And that my doctrine is R.C doctrine? Like seriously you sound like your from a cult. I read from the King James Bible. God’s perfect word in english. Jesus is God , the Holy Spirit is God and so is the Father but these three are 1. Whats so hard to understand. We even see in Genesis chapter 1 that it says the Spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters and remember Jesus is not the Spirit. And in John chapter 1:1-3 we see the Word was in the beginning with God and the Word was God. Scripture never contradicts. Unless you read from modern versions. Im going to stop talking to you because youre really lost and its hard to talk to someone who doesnt even know what theyre talking about.

          • Emery

            If between the two of us, one is brainwashed, it most certainly is NOT me. Quoting a scripture to “prove” you wrong is a tactic of RELIGION. Not a method taught in the inspired word of God. The KJV is NOT “God’s perfect word in english” by ANY stretch of the imagination. NO translation is inspired by God. NONE. He inspired His words to us in ancient Hebrew and ancient Koine Greek. The two languages I studied in college whereby we used those two languages to study three dozen English translations of God’s word, comparing them to the 16,000 ancient texts, to see if any were accurately translated, and NONE were. The KJV being the greatest offender, with over 20,000 MISTRANSLATED WORDS in it’s pages. And we did this decades before you were even born. Your language alone proves that you are VERY YOUNG, and that you are VERY INEXPERIENCED and unlearned in God’s word. Even if you were learned in God’s word, you’re not using the word of God, you’re using the word of James the First, the homosexual head of the Church of England in the sixth and seventh centuries. He created a Bible that reflected the views and teachings of that church, not the words of God. You don’t need to continue to repeat words that prove you are antichrist, since antichrist also means one who teaches lies about God, Jesus, and God’s word. I already know you are such. Continued proving of the point serves no purpose. You mentioned “modern versions”. You don’t use the original KJV 1611 Bible, since none exist today, except pieces of a couple in museums. What you are using is the 12th or 13th revision of the original. It IS a modern translation in that respect. You aren’t even aware of what you are reading. All of what you CLAIM to know was given to you from others. It’s not even from your own lifetime of research and study. And no, you are going to stop “talking” to me (we aren’t talking, we’re typing) because you have no desire for any truth. You only desire the lies that Satan inspires you to embrace. You are deceived by him and will most likely continue until your destruction in the tribulation or final battle. The second death, Gehenna. It doesn’t have to be that way. You could reverse course, draw close to God after praying for forgiveness and repenting, and acquire an honest hearted desire to know God, and to obey all of His commands. But your type usually never does that. You are in a cult of a religion that demands militant obedience to the lies you are spoon fed your entire life. But I hope this isn’t so. Maybe you will begin to grow up a little bit, and see the error of your ways and let God mold you into the type of person He commands us to be.

          • Grace

            Emery,
            First, the word you’re looking for is ‘you’re’ (meaning ‘you are’) not ‘your’ (meaning personal possession) . There is a difference.

            Here is Scripture that you asked for:
            Isaiah 26:19-21 backs up 1 Thessalonians 4:16-16 (or vice versa)

            Isaiah 26:19-21
            19 ​​Your dead shall live; ​​Together with my dead body they shall arise.
            ​​Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; ​​For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
            ​​And the earth shall cast out the dead.​
            20 ​​Come, my people, enter your chambers, ​​And shut your doors behind you;
            ​​Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, ​​Until the indignation is past.
            21 ​​For behold, the LORD comes out of His place ​​To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
            ​​The earth will also disclose her blood, ​​And will no more cover her slain.

            1 Thessalonians 4:16-16
            15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
            1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
            9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

            ***********************
            Yes, the bodies of the believers (those who died believing the promise of God, this includes those before the time of Christ and all the way up to our time) will rise as well those who are alive at the time of the rapture. God will clear the righteous from the unrighteous before His wrath.

            However, once we are removed, the LORD will give one more chance to Israel and for those who suddenly realize they missed the boat. That is why the LORD:
            Marks 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. They will witness to the Jews on earth.
            Sends two witnesses (Rev 11)
            Sends three angels (Rev 14) with warnings to make a final call which is the rapture in Rev 14:14-17

            Then the final plagues are poured out and the earth goes through HUGE transformation. The binary solar system that is currently causing difficulties with our weather at present will bring the full brunt when the cloud of asteroids begin to pummel the earth.

            Then there is the marriage supper of the Lamb with the Bride being those first raptured.
            Then Christ returns with His Saints who were raptured in Rev 14 (ref Rev 19:6-8)

            Christ comes with His army
            The Beast, false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. The rest are slain.
            Satan is thrown into the pit for 1000 years

            Then those who were given authority to judge and those who had been beheaded for their testimony and those who did not worship the beast reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

            Satan loosed
            Then the battle of Gog and Magog.
            Fire falls from heaven

            Then the final judgment
            The new heaven and new earth

            And the Scriptures are complete

            God has proclaimed it and God will do it.

          • Emery

            Grace;
            No, no rapture is mentioned in the scriptures. No rapture will happen. You completely misunderstand, as do most, the inspired word of God.

          • Fernando

            There is no such thing as the original text, there’s only copies of copies. To be honest I don’t have time to complain that this bible and that bible is wrong but the fact is you can’t disprove that Jesus is God. I believe that God has provided us with the King James Bible because he said so in his word. You keep mentioning religion and like I said I don’t belong to any, in fact I don’t even go to church. That’s great you study different languages, but I don’t have to nor does anyone else has to since God provided us with the King James Bible. Before I stop commenting I just want to know something, if someone asked you what must I do to be saved what would ur answer be?

          • 01e1ngvar

            1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
            One thing is for sure – there’s no Rapture for you. Because you aren’t born again, you haven’t Spirit of Christ.
            Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
            So what’s your foundation? Membership of Watch Tower? Same thing claims Orthodox, Catholics, Muslims etc.
            Remember next
            John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
            So it’s you.
            Then stop wasting your time here and upload tons of garbage messages (99% are tired from them and don’t read them at all) and search in REAL WORD OF GOD, not toilet paper from your Masonic sect.

          • Emery

            Now you are only showing that you have no idea what you are talking about. Many first century texts exist, both secular, and scriptural, and they agree. All of the ancient texts that are available, 16,000 of them, show definitively what I have told you to be accurate, and show what you’ve posted to me to be inaccurate. The fact is, who cares what who can prove? What is true is that you don’t love God, and disagree with His inspired word, and lie about Him and His son and His servants. These things are completely true. Another fact is that you have no idea how to behave toward those older and wiser and more educated and experienced than you. Whether you go to a church or not doesn’t affect the fact that what you repeat from others comes straight from Babylonish religions. FAKE religions. Only religions teach that Jesus is God. That is where you got the false information. It’s not in the scriptures. God HAS NOT PROVIDED THE KJV BIBLE. King James the first provided the original one, and many have altered it. That’s what you have in your hands. God DID NOT INSPIRE ANY TRANSLATIONS. Obey God is the answer you are looking for, and you are not doing it. One can’t even see what to obey when using a false translation of His word, as you are now. Stop lying about God is another good start. Stop lying about His son is yet another good way to start. But being “saved” means being saved when the time comes to be saved. It’s not something one “acquires” and stores up. You can’t be pre-saved from drowning in ten years. You can’t be saved now from a fatal car crash in three days. One is saved, when the time comes to be saved. Your understanding of it comes straight from religions, all of which God says are false religion. All of which Jesus said are “works of the flesh”. He, in fact, taught the only real religion that exists, the “one true faith”, NOT the “one true church”, since he taught AGAINST all churches.

  • The penalty for sin is death. Sin is described as the transgression of the law. It’s absolutely ridiculous the believe a sinning church, or people for that matter, will be lifted to heaven without paying the price for their sins. The world has been deceived and doesn’t know it. Exodus 31:13 commands us to guard “HIS” Sabbath above all, it is a sign between us and our Father. No religion or church of man obeys this command, this is the first of many sins, but the greatest sin as it is commanded twice.

    This sin began when Judah adopted the lunar Sabbath calendar of Babylon during and after the exile to Babylon. Judah would later transfer it’s Sabbath to the Roman calendar during the Roman conquest of the land. A Roman calendar created by a pagan Roman in the year 46 BC. Christianity would later follow suit but choosing a different day for their Sabbath. The sins of Judaism and Christianity are piled so high it’s almost unbelievable that they could conceive themselves as being so righteous that our Father would throw open the gates to heaven to them.

    However, there is a very special group of people who make the cut, so to speak. Revelation 7 tells us they are sealed and protected in the last days with the sign of our Father. Remember that sign from Exodus 31:13? Revelation 7 doesn’t say anything about them being removed from the earth, but later they are transformed. Revelation 14 tells us this group of 144,000 are seen on Mt. Tsiyon with the Messiah at his return. These 144,000 are called maidens, the bride of the Messiah, they follow him wherever he goes. These 144,000 are found guiltless before the throne of our Father, they are so special they will be priests forever.

    No church on earth can obtain what the 144,000 will be given. So, all this looking for the mark of the beast won’t save you. Why do you seek satan when our Father tells you his sign will save you. The only way to find his sign is to use his method of marking time. The only scriptural instructions to formulate a calendar system are found in chapters 72-82 of the book of Enoch and confirmed in the book of Jubilees. This is the only means of identifying the true Sabbath of our Father.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/179513092255225/?ref=bookmarks

    • Emery

      Wayne;
      When Jesus was asked which is the greatest commandment, what was his reply? Did he mention a sabbath law? No. Here is his reply: Matthew 22:34 After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

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  • PeterAV

    Can any pre-tribber please post this pre-trib rapture verse that has the rapture BEFORE the tribulation? When you do this one little thing, then THIS is the FIRST sign of BIBLICAL LEGITIMACY.
    *******
    PeterAV
    Every word of God is pure:

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