The Bible Believers Guide To Understanding The Differences Between The Rapture And The Second Coming

So we see many Christian churches today, who do not rightly divide their Bibles, are teaching their people that there is no difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. They say that these are one and the same event. But we will show you conclusively in this article that, because of the manifold differences between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, that it is impossible for them to be the same event.
bible-believers-guide-pretribulation-rapture-church-jesus-christ-rightly-dividing-end-times-prophecy-nteb

The day of Christ, the Rapture is to be looked forward to, the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming, is to be greatly feared.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

There is an old adage that says “things that are different are not the same”. As Christians, we have a nasty tendency to read everything from Matthew to Revelation and try to apply it all to the Church. This will not work, because all the New Testament is not written to the Christian Church. The Church is only one part of it. Much of the New Testament is written to the Jews of that time, and to the Jews that will be living during the time of Jacob’s Trouble, otherwise known as the Great Tribulation. And some of it is written to the unbelieving Gentiles. This is why Paul commands Timothy to teach people how to “rightly divide” their Bibles to know which of the three groups God is speaking to at any given time.

So we see many Christian churches today, who do not rightly divide their Bibles, are teaching their people that there is no difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. They say that these are one and the same event. But we will show you conclusively in this article that, because of the manifold differences between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, that it is impossible for them to be the same event.

#1: The Rapture is the ‘blessed hope’ while the Second Coming is a Day to be greatly feared.

We start with this one first because it is the one difference most overlooked in a study of the differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming. In Titus 2:13, talking about the Rapture, Paul calls it “the Blessed Hope”, a day of great comfort and joy. But in Amos 5:18, talking about the Day of the Lord, which is in fact the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, God tells us that it is a day of “great woe”, and greatly to be feared! Now, how can the Rapture and the Second Coming possibly be the same? Read Joel 3 for more on the ferocity and woefulness of the Second Coming. Paul calls the Rapture of the Church the “day of Christ”. The Second Coming is called the “day of the Lord”. The day of Christ is to be looked forward to, the Day of the Lord to be feared. If you are someone who believes the Bible, then I could stop this article right here as I have established my case well beyond the shadow of any doubt, reasonable or otherwise. But for  you who are ” fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken” then we have added another 9 rock-solid reasons why the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ cannot be the same event.

  • “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.” 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.” Amos 5:18 (KJV) – The Second Coming
  • “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.” Isaiah 13:9 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#2: In the Rapture, Jesus comes for his Church, at His Second Coming He brings the Church with Him.

Paul teaches over and over again that at the Rapture, the Church is taken up and out from off the face of the Earth. But at the Second Coming, Jesus returns with His saints. Another fatal difference when trying to reconcile the two events as one. The first it’s a “going up”, and in the second it’s a “coming down”.

  • “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:24 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#3: In the Rapture, the Church is taken to Heaven, at the Second Coming Jesus sets up earthly rule.

In both John and Paul’s writings, the promise of a “heavenly home” awaits for the born again Christian. We call this the Kingdom of God. But in the Second Coming, a thousand year kingdom is established on Earth, known as the Kingdom of Heaven. Christians are never promised an earthly home, but an heavenly one. The Jews and Tribulation saints were never promised that, they get instead a home on the Earth.

  • “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14:2,3 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Revelation 20:4 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#4: The Rapture happens before the Antichrist and the Tribulation, while the Second Coming happens after both.

Paul stresses repeatedly that one of the incredible benefits of being taken out in the Rapture is that you get to miss the entire wrath of the Great Tribulation. But Matthew tells us that the Second Coming is “after the Tribulation of those days”. Well, which is it? If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, then these verses represent an irreconcilable difference. But there is not a conflict because, obviously, they are two separate and distinct events.

  • “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:29,39 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#5: In the Rapture, only the born again Church sees the Lord come for them, at the Second Coming the whole world witnesses it.

Mockers of the doctrine of the Pretribulation Rapture like to call it a “secret” Rapture, like that is somehow an insult to people who believe it. The apostle Paul, who the Holy Spirit used to write that doctrine, also viewed it as a secret, he called it a “mystery”. In the Rapture, only the redeemed hear the Shout of the Lord and He calls us up to be with Him in the air. At the Second Coming, Jesus appears in JUDGMENT to the whole world.

  • “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1:7 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#6: In the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church. At the Second Coming, angels do all the gathering for judgment.

Paul says that it is Jesus Himself who comes to gather His Church up and out of here. We hear His Shout, and “in the twinkling of an eye” we are gone. No angels mentioned anywhere. Compare this with His Second Coming where only angels are sent to gather God’s elect, the Jewish remnant who made it through the Tribulation. Again, major difference.

  • “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:30,31 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#7: The Judgment Seat of Christ follows the Rapture while the Judgment of Nations follows the Second Coming.

Immediately after the Rapture of the Church, Paul says that we will be appearing before the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is not a judgment on sin, which was taken care of at Calvary, it is a judgement on the works we did or did not do for Jesus Christ after we got saved. But immediately after the Second Coming, the judgment that takes place is a public judgment, not of individuals, but of the nations.

  • “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” 2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:44-46 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#8: Famine, war and pestilence follow the Rapture while 1,000 years of world peace follows the Second Coming.

Again, the differences here could not be more apparent. After the Rapture, a time of unbelievable suffering is ushered in, the time of Jacob’s Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). But after the Second Coming, a 1,000 reign of the Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem brings a world peace so amazing that even poisonous animals are no longer dangerous. The verse in Matthew 24 where the apostles ask Jesus about the “sign of thy coming” is a direct reference to the Second Coming. The doctrine of the Rapture was unknown to them at this time and would not be revealed until Paul, 30 years from the writing of Matthew.

  • “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.” Matthew 24:3,6-8 (KJV)
  • “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:6-10 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#9: No one in the bible knew of the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church until it was revealed by the Lord to Paul.

This is one of the greatest proof-texts for why the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming cannot be the same event. Paul, in Corinthians 15, is the very first to tell us of the Rapture of the Church, and lets us know that it is a “mystery” revealed by God to him alone which he then was charged with teaching the Church. Nearly every bible chronology places the date of the writing of Matthew at around 35 AD, and the writing of Corinthians at around 66 AD.

Why is this important? Because if no one knew of the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church until Paul, then Matthew 24 and 25 cannot be, under any circumstances, referring to the Church and the Rapture because no one knew of any Rapture. In fact, at the time of Matthew the Church itself was not even formed. If Matthew knew and wrote about the Rapture of the Church, then Paul was lying when he said it was a MYSTERY that he was revealing for the first time in Corinthians.

  • “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 (KJV) – The Rapture

#10: At the Rapture, believers are given a glorified body, at the Second Coming they remain in earthly bodies as they enter the Millennial Kingdom.

At the Rapture of the Church, great personal and physical change takes place for the believer. The Bible says that the born again believer receives a new body that is fashioned just like the “glorious body” that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself was given at His Resurrection. Wow, imagine that! How exciting for the believer to be able to look forward to that day. But at the Second Coming, as Jesus sets up His earthly government from Jerusalem, the people who made it through the Tribulation have no special bodies, and it is possible for them to die. Christians who get glorified bodies can never die.

  • “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” Philippians 3:20,21 (KJV) – The Rapture
  • “But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.” Isaiah 65:17-21 (KJV) – The Second Coming

If you are not only a Bible believer but also intellectually honest, then you must admit that we have proved completely that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are two very different events with two very different results. In this article we have given 10 reasons as to why, but could easily provide another 20 examples of the differences between the two events.

Things that are different cannot be the same. Case closed.

 

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • And I quote you: “Why is this important?” Indeed, why is it? Clearly the sentence was not meant rhetorically, but if one reads it that way then the piece contains one relevant sentence. No one cares about this topic. Something like 95% of churchgoers don’t even believe 3/4 of the content of the Nicene/Apostles’ Creeds. Why is this important? It isn’t! The disciples thought Jesus was returning in their lifetimes – that is crystal clear in Matthew 25; it is why people were encouraged to cease practicing their professions/delay marriages, etc.. He was not, and He is not returning.

    Why is this important? It isn’t. All of your thousands of words, words, words are irrelevant; they are as inapplicable to a follower of Jesus as they are to an atheist. I’m not sure even Jesus Himself would get worked up into such a frenzy over specific meanings.

    Isn’t the point of it all, really, how we live and how we treat others? Isn’t that what Jesus was usually trying to prove to the Pharisees, etc., authorities du jour?

    • First of all, the “Nicene Creed” is not in the Bible, it is a Catholic invention and has no bearing on Scripture. Secondly, this article is not meant to have any relevance to the atheist, it is meant to teach CHRISTIANS bible doctrine.

      • J Kent

        Mr. Grider, thanks for your comment on that. I used the example of the (you are correct) Catholic-invented creeds, repeated in Protestant churches, as an example of a piece containing details which Christians by and large have reported that they don’t really believe much of or place much emphasis on. I’m tired tonight, and it is very lame of me literarily to not list my source; I will look for it b/c it’s inexcusable to refer to something so critical without any reference. I will find it as soon as I wake up at some point. Anyway, you are basically completely correct. I guess then the question arises again–and again, expressed rhetorically–why does the doctrine, and why do these specific details on how things end, matter so much? Perhaps it is important to some but why go on, and on and on about it? Look, I’ve served on Church staff (no, I am not ordained), and truly, I am no stranger to theology. I just don’t get the urgency. Isn’t the way we treat one another / what is in our hearts really so much more important than essays on how the world ends? (& yes, I do see the URL – I’m not even sure how I wound up receiving this site’s e-mails, but I do pay attention). I also cannot help but notice that these subject matters are presented so sensationally — almost at a hysterical pitch. I would just ask, respectfully, if you can tell me why any of this particular doctrine is important? And if so, how? All my best – J

        • You know, when I was a Catholic, i had no sense of URGENCY because the Catholic Church does not teach any. Neither do they teach about the Rapture which Paul speaks of. But if you knew that at any moment the Rapture could happen, would you not live your life perhaps a little differently? I think you would. Please research my 10 points in a King James Bible and see how the Lord will use it to speak to you. Thanks!

          • jo lo

            I was happy to see you entitled the article “the bible believers guide” because so many who argue in these comments are not always doing so out of a belief in the Bible. You are right on, and thanks for speaking for us who do believe the Bible and believe in the pretribulation rapture. It will be a useful place to direct those with real questions.

          • john becker

            PERHAPS THE RAPTURE IS AN AMERICAN AIRLIFT TAKING OUT THE JEWS FROM ISRAEL PRIOR TO THE NUCLEAR BOMBING OF ISRAEL FROM IRANS NUKES. THEN FOLLOWED BY RUSSIA AIDING IRAN ALONG WITH NORTH KOREA PRIOR TO THE USA’S RETALIATION……….AND UNLESS THOSE DAYS WERE CUT SHORT. NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED…….BUT BECAUSE OF JEHOVAH;’S CHOSEN ONES……..THOSE DAYS ARE CUT SHORT TO PREVENT WW3 FROM WIPING OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH.

          • JOHN

            VERY GOOD REPLY. NITROMAN

        • Ish

          The reason it is important is because scripture tells us to watch…watch…and watch lest our house be broken into and we miss the bridegroom.

        • christy

          Because Jesus says it purifies us…and we get a crown to lay at His precious feet because we LOVE HIS APPEARING, also it’s to “comfort one another”. 🙂 All important reasons during these difficult times.

        • john becker

          i just heard a scientist on the radio state that unless we find a cure for the AVIAN BIRD FLU…………THE KILLING OF MILLIONS OF CHICKENS, TURKEYS, DUCKS ETC HAS THE POTENTIAL OF WIFING OUT AN ENTIRE SPECIES FROM OFF THE EARTH…..

          IT SEEMS THAT MONSANTO AND OTHERS LIKE THEM USE ROUNDUP AND OTHER WEED KILLERS THAT SEEPS INTO THE GROUND WATER AND KILLS THE BIRDS THROUGH THE WATER SUPPLY. THIS IS A PESTILENCE OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS…… WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS NOW? JOHN NITROMAN MPLS MN

        • Bro. Nick Nicholas

          J Kent – Why the importance of any Biblical Doctrine?
          My Biblical understanding is because “doctrine” is written in “the word of the LORD” – which is “the law of God”:
          Ҧ Whom shall he teach knowledge?
          ~ and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
          them that are weaned from the milk,
          and drawn from the breasts.
          For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
          line upon line, line upon line;
          here a little, and there a little:”
          (Isaiah 28:9-10, KJB)

          It is interesting that “doctrine” is written six (6) times in the OLD Testament of the Holy Bible, KJV

          ~ BUT “doctrine” is written 45 (forty five) times in the NEW Testament of the Holy Bible, KJV = NINE Times more often!

          ~ Emphasis of “the word of the LORD” is mine – Bro. Nick

        • J Kent, We should have a sense of urgency because we need to prepare our hearts if we want to take part in the rapture. God promised me 29 years ago that Jesus would return within my lifetime. I’m 68 years old, and have been telling others within the church that the message of the gospel has been distorted. At the time God called me in 1986, he told me my mission is to bring unity among the all people of God, and that I need to warn them to prepare their hearts. It’s all about our hearts and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

        • Ish

          There are many scriptures where it says specifically to watch. One that I keep in my heart is Luke 21:37.

      • The Nicene Creed is not written up in the Bible but is a compilation of what IS in the Bible a quick reference and
        statement of faith.

        Jesus IS coming back because He said so, but He ALSO made at
        least one parable showing the nobleman who is absent is gone
        for quite some time. And Jesus said He didn’t know when He
        was coming back. The attitude of watchfulness over our actions,
        thoughts, words is important for living our life in Christ.

      • john becker

        WE MUST NOT BE LEARNING BIBLICAL DOCTRINE OR WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING BAD COW DESEASE AND NOW AVIAN CHICKEN FLU OF WHICH 60% OF THE PEOPLE DIE WHO GET IT. IF IT JUMPS THE SPECIES FROM CHICKENS AND TURKEYS TO HUMANS ……….WE ARE DOOMED……..IT HAS NOW KILLED OVER 6 DOGS IN CHICAGO. WILL THE AVIAN BIRD FLU GET US BECAUSE WE EAT THINGS STRANGLED LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS NOT TO DO? JEHOVAH GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. ELECTROCUTING CHICKENS TO SAVE A POUND OF BLOOD IN EACH CHICKEN RAISES PROFITS BUT MAY KILL US IN DOING IT. GOVERNOR MARK DAYTON OF MINNESOTA HAS DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY AND IS KILLING OVER 6 MILLION TURKEYS AND CHICKENS……..EXPECT YOUR FOOD PRICES TO ESCALLATE.

      • The Rapture is the “Born Again Christian” – Raised up from Adam’s FALL. It took Jesus Christ to put us into ‘another Dimension’ of Time. Called Eternal Life. Rev. 10:6 The “Born again Regenerated Christian” has Eternal life in HIM = Jesus Christ for ever. Their is NO MORE fallen man in your spirit. The Holy Spirit makes us Sons of God. Without it. You have never “Risen nor will you Rise in into the air as most think without death. A Born again Christian has to die only one death and that is while living in the Kingdom of God on this Planet. I am dead in sins and trespasses and it happen on Earth.
        Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the “”kingdom of God””, and “HIS” “”righteousness””; and all these things shall be added unto you. The Kingdom of God in living in you Right NOW! yes RIGHT NOW if you are filled with the HOLY SPIRIT and LOVE. Its a completely different lift style than before. WHY – Thy Kingdom come thy will be done IN EARTH as it is in Heaven. That is the Rapture
        As the Worm on the tree limb changes into a Butterfly and flies off into the heavenly place. Look at him real close. The worm = weak mankind – Morphed into a Beautiful Butterfly. Hello. Look up the words if you do not believe me. Morphed, Translated, Transformed, Transfigured, Born again anew,raised up, resurrection etc. etc.. that is your Rapture into the Kingdom of GOD a brand new man. Your are NO MORE a TERRESTRIAL being and have become a Celestial Man as was Adam before the fall. Bro. Tom York

    • mike

      Rapture ready living is about righteous living. It demands we are holy as He is holy. Jesus may not return today, but then again He may. Watch, wait, remain pure. A bride anxious, anticipating the arrival of her groom.

      It will be an event unlike any other in history … but on par with the flood during the days of Noah and the destruction of the valley region of Sodom and Gomorrah during the days of Lot.

      It will be God’s single greatest evangelical event. Countless millions will be saved AFTER the Church is caught up/gather into heaven. Sadly they will be saved in a post rapture world and will most likely suffer horribly for their new-found faith. But their salvation shall be secure. And they too shall be co-heirs with Christ.

      The enemies of Israel and Church will be momentarily masters of the world. Islam will demand a Quranic interpretation of the events and feel justified in their final conquest which is Jerusalem.

      Oh, Jerusalem. It will become the center of everything which follows.

      7 years (3.5 + 3.5) = 84 months (42 + 42) = 2520 days (1260 + 1260).

    • Joanna

      God’s Will
      3/7/08 From The Lord, Our God and Savior – The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear :Thus says The Lord to the United States: Obama shall lead you. And by him shall My will and judgment against your nation be fulfilled, for all its forsaking of Me and My Israel…
      And so I have brought from among your enemy even one from Ishmael, to rule over you for a time and a season, foreordained, until that foretold is accomplished and the king of fierce countenance rules. Then, by that deception conceived of by your enemy and this transgressor, him being full of lofty and elevated words, lies and dark speeches sold as hope, will it return against him ten-fold of the same, by him called Perdition.

      Yet remember this: Nothing exists outside of Me, says The Lord, neither does anything continue outside My will; for even the evil of this present world is set within the confines of My will. For evil acts and brings forth of its own, yet is unaware that nothing is hidden before Me; neither has anything come to pass, nor will be, that I have not already beheld… And this, O arrogant and deceived generation, is why I said, “All was written and completed, even before the foundation of the world.”
      For I am God! THE GOD!…

      The God of Abraham,
      The God of Isaac,
      The God of Jacob!…

      The God of all!…

      Even of all that is known and unknown,
      The Creator of all things…

      The Everlasting, who is from everlasting to everlasting…

      I AM.

      http://www.trumpetcallofgodonline.com

    • JOHN

      no POINT IN STATING PROPHECY IF IT DIDN’T HAVE ANY VALUE………..JESUS SAID BEHOLD I COME QUICKLY………THAT DID NOT MEAN IN A SHORT NUMBER OF YEARS……………IT MEANT THAT ONCE THINGS WERE IN PLACE TO BE NECESSARY FOR HIM TO RETURN, THAT ONCE EVERYTHING WAS IN PLACE IT WOULD ALL HAPPEN FAST AS A WOLF SNATCHING AWAY A SHEEP IN THE MIDDLE OF A HERD………….IT HASN’T HAPPENDED IN 2000 YEARS BUT ONCE WE REACH THE POINT OF PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT, LOOK OUT…………..IT WALL HAPPEN SUPER FAST AND THE ENTIRE BOOK OF REVELEATION WILL TAKE PLACE IN SEVEN YEARS. JOHN NITROMAN MPLS, MINN

    • Uh……. so 2 Peter 3:3-4 is about to be bluntly fulfilled by heretics and atheists who teach that “There is no PROMISE of any 2nd Coming of Christ that’s worth answering to!”. I agree that MOST that say so do nor really believe in The Rapture. But what part (say you, Geoffery) do “we” Raptured Saints have in any Millennium? Will The Rapture be the immediate cause of millions of DIVORCES that God forbade during this life?

  • June Marshall

    Geoffrey, what a wonderful article. So clear but only the blind cannot see or the deaf not hear. I have been so sad whenever I hear of true believers getting these two events mixed up or believing they are one and the same Or even worse that neither event is true. Thank the Lord all you wrote is accurate and I pray it will uplift many believers to look up for our Saviour is coming, SOON. Thank you for making for making this so clear.

    • Thank you SO MUCH for the encouraging words, much appreciated. One thing that we as Christians sorely need in these Laodicean times is Bible DOCTRINE. Obviously, the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming cannot ever be the same event. I listed 10 well-studied reasons as to why that is so – but – I could easily give you 10 to 20 MORE examples of this. Not trying to “convince” the doubting Christians so much as I am trying to teach the Bible to those who wish to receive it. Thanks again!

      • Bro. Nick Nicholas

        Geoffrey – Thank you so much for a clear, concise, well written article to those few – “the remnant” who have “an heart to perceive”, “ears to hear”, and “eyes to see” in these increasingly evil and wicked days just before ‘the pre-tribulation Rapture’ of all church “saints”!!!

        You may be interested in the following article that I was ‘providentially led to’ while doing some research – it is from a Roman Catholic website –
        – Catholic Answers to explain & defend the faith –
        http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=563303

        ———————————-

        May 19, ’11, 9:52 am
        ESMDHokie77
        Radio Club Member

        Rapture: Claimed proof in ECF’s? {ECF’s = Early Church Fathers}
        Hey CAF,

        I just heard someone claim ECF belief in the Rapture? Specifically: Hippolytus and Irenaeus.

        The commenter said:
        Quote:
        Hmm, I don’t really want to get involved in a religious discussion on FB, but I also can’t let historical innacuracies go uncorrected. The concept of predicting the return of Christ is not an idea that got “thought of in the 19th century”—the concept of a sextamillennial span of human history followed by a 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth for a total of 7000 years of human history, otherwise known as the year-day tradition, was very widely held among the earliest Christian communities and some of the most influential Church fathers including for instance Irenaeus of Lyon and Hippolytus of Rome. In the earliest centuries of the Church many Christian communties and thinkers thought the rapture was imminent and would happen by the end of the millenium at the latest (ie, 1000AD), and so quite honestly this May 21st group, seen as wacko by today’s standards, is far more congruent with the tribulation teachings of the early Christian communities than any manistream church existing today…

        Again, I do thank you for this article – exactly as it is written:
        “Iron sharpeneth iron;
        so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.”
        (Prov 27:17, KJB)
        .

    • So clear that only the deaf and dumb who do not read Scripture
      in context and sequentially as it was written could write such an
      article.

      The effort to separate The Second Coming and The Rapture into vastly different times, is like trying to separate the elements of “she came back from shopping” as if arrival in the driveway, getting out of the car, taking groceries in the house and
      locking the car were all done hours days or weeks apart from
      each other.

      Scroll down for my point by point refutation of all this,
      starting with what should be self evident: The Day of the Lord
      is to be feared by His enemies not by His friends.

      • MRH

        There is only one holy return event, but it has two phases; for church, with church. The 1st phase is the Rapture, and occurs at the end of Tribulation. The 2nd phase is Second Coming, and occurs at the end of the Wrath. And there will be deliverance of saints until the bitter end.

        The day of the Lord begins with the Rapture, and ends at distant Paradise. In essence, the day of the Lord signals the end of man’s rule. It’s when the holy kingdom is delivered up to God, and the evil empire is destroyed.

        P.S. Christians today need not fear the future, as we are saved and sealed unto eternity. We are all children of God, no matter our biblical battle factor. The latter is all part of holy game, as we are all striving towards knowledge.

        • its all one. the Second Coming Christ is visibnle to all in the sky, we rise to be with Him in the sky while He rains down wrath on earth, He does not leave the atmosphere, when that is done we descend with Him to earth. all one thing.

          • Jim Black

            Finally, someone who gets it:)

      • Heather

        Wikipedia.org
        There are many views among Christians regarding the timing of Christ return ( including whether it will occur in one event or two ), and various views regarding the destination of the aerial gatherings described in 1 Thessalonians 4
        Denominations such as Roman Catholic’s, Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, and Reformed Christians believe in a rapture only in the sense of a general final resurrection, when Christ returns a single time. They do not believe that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4 : 17.

        Information like this has a way of putting things into perspective, such as in where confusion of God’s Word originates from, groups following group’s beliefs instead of the Word of God.
        Matthew 15:14
        Let them alone : they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

        @Christine I have noticed how you spread your Eastern Orthodox Religious heresy all over this site, lashing out at others for their belief in the promises made of the Lord. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable on a site more in tune with your own beliefs in which many of the promises from the Lord are completely IGNORED.

        • Bro. Nick Nicholas

          Heather – Thank you for your Biblical ‘Watchman on the Wall’ WARNING:
          Ҧ So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
          When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity;
          but his blood will I require at thine hand.
          Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity;
          but thou hast delivered thy soul.”
          (Ezek 33:7-9, KJB)
          .

  • Grace

    Thank you so much. Actually, the LORD put it upon my heart last week to also put together a message regarding the difference between the two and you have now confirmed.

    I must however argue point nine, in that the rapture, I believe is pointed out in Isaiah 26:20-21
    “20 ​​Come, my people, enter your chambers,
    ​​And shut your doors behind you;
    ​​Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
    ​​Until the indignation is past.
    21 ​​For behold, the LORD comes out of His place
    ​​To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
    ​​The earth will also disclose her blood,
    ​​And will no more cover her slain.”

    It may have been a point that affirmed Paul, I don’t know, but it is there. When it first caught my heart I was overwhelmed. The LORD is so compassionate. It won’t be long now. Thanks for putting this together. It is very necessary.
    Blessings ~

    • Thanks so much for writing! The verse you quote in Isaiah about “hiding until the indignation is past” is reference to the Jews hiding out in the Red Rock city of Selah, Petra during the Great Tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24. For more information on this, please read my teaching on The Meaning Of The Word Selah In The Bible: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/doctrine/the-meaning-of-the-word-selah-in-the-bible.htm

      • Iceman4Christ

        When I first read these passages years ago I believed it was referencing the rapture of the church. The Rapture of the church into the chambers in Isaiah 26:19-21 and also Joel 2:16 The church comes out of the chamber.

        Isa 26:19

        Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

        Isa 26:20

        Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

        Isa 26:21

        For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

        I just don’t see where it says that the Jews will be hiding in Petra “Selah” in these verses, nor do I see them running to the mountains or running to the wilderness to hide. When I read this it sounds more like the pretrib rapture and then the tribulation starts.

        Then at the 2nd coming we come out of this same chamber in Joel 2:16.

        Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

        The words for chamber and closet in this verse have these meanings.

        chamber: chamber, room, parlour, innermost or inward part, within

        closet: chamber, room, canopy, closet, divine protection (fig.)

        Though I do agree that the Jewish people will be going there and God takes care of them. I just don’t see it in these verses.

    • todd

      PreTibulationists like to use isaiah 26 to prove the Church will be hidden during the time of tribulation. “Come My people, enter into your chambers and shut your doors; hide yourselves for a little moment until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity…”

      However, it seems pretty unlikely that Jesus is present in heaven with His Bride, while at the same time is “coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.” If Jesus is in the Wedding Chamber with His Bride during the seven years, then He cannot possibly be punishing the world during that time, since that would require His “coming out of His place.” Jesus comes out of His place for “as it were, a little moment,” after the time of tribulation. That is when the inhabitants of the earth are punished for their iniquity.
      And in case PreTribulationists haven’t noticed, it is Isaiah speaking in these verses, not the Lord. “My people” refers to Isaiah’s people (just as “your people,” refers to the nation of Israel in Daniel 9).
      “Like a woman with child…so WE (Israel) were, O Lord; WE were with child, WE writhed, WE have as it were brought forth wind. WE (Israel) have wrought no deliverance in the earth and the inhabitants of the earth have not fallen. THY dead (those belonging to the Lord) shall live, together with MY (Isaiah’s) dead body, THEY (The Lord’s people, Israel) shall arise. Awake and sing, YOU that dwell in the dust; for THY dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out her dead.
      “Come, MY (Isaiah’s) people, enter THOU into THY chambers, and shut the doors about THEE; hide THYSELF as it were for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold the Lord comes (notice that it does not say “For behold I come…”) out of HIS place (notice it does not say “… out of MY place…”) to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; (nor does it say …”punish Jacob for his iniquity…”); the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.”

      Isaiah is telling his people to enter their chambers, for the Lord is coming. Again, if this is a reference to the rapture, and Christ is in the wedding chamber with His bride, it seems unlikely and rather impossible for Him to “come out of His place” to punish the inhabitants of the earth. If Christ is in the wedding chamber with His Bride during the seven year time of tribulation, then the tribulation is obviously not the time when Christ is punishing the inhabitants of the world. That time of punishment is “as it were, a little while” NOT seven years long, and it is AFTER the tribulation, when He actually comes out of His place at the great battle of the Lord Almighty, otherwise known as Armageddon.
      Regarding the “promised Mansions,” the word that is translated “mansions” is “mone,” which means “a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode, or methaph. of God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers.”

      “Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘If any man love Me, he will keep My words, and My Father will love him and we will come (“erchomai”) unto him and make our abode (“mone”) with him.'” John 14:23

      “Hereby we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit.” I john 4:13

      “Now, therefore you…are built (“epoikodomeo”) on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone; in whom all the building fitly framed together grows into a holy Temple in the Lord, in whom you also are builded (“synoikodmeo”) together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.” Eph 2:19-22

      “And you also, as living stones, are built up (“oikodomeo”) as a spiritual House (“oikos”)…” I Peter 2:5

      “…upon this Rock I will build (“oikodomeo”) My Church…” Matt 16:18

      “In My Father’s House (“oikia”) are many dwelling places…I go to prepare a place (“topos”) for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come (“erchomai”) again and receive you unto Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.” John 14:3

      This passage has nothing to do with a wedding betrothal as PreTribulationists suppose.

      The Greek word “topos,” mentioned above means “a portion or space marked off, a station or condition held by one in any company or assembly.” It is referring to the place each believer has in the Body of Christ, the Temple of God.

      Jesus was telling His disciples that He was going away to prepare a place in His Father’s House, the Temple of God. Each believer, as a “living stone,” would become a “dwelling place” in that Temple for the Spirit of God.

      It is not talking about a rapture, or even the Second coming. It is talking about Jesus sending His Spirit into the heart of each believer. He will make His abode with those who love Him and keep His words, that where He is (in the Father), there they will be also.

      “Yet in a little while, and the world will see Me no more; but you will see Me; because I live, you shall also live. At that day, you shall know that I am in the Father, and you in Me, and I in You.” John 14:19-20

      Jesus is coming for us soon, but He has already come to us, receiving us unto Himself, that where He is, we are also. We are in Him, His Body.

      According to PreTrib “logic” this verse, in the words of Geoffrey Grider, “cannot be, under any circumstances, referring to the Church and the Rapture,” because the Church was still a mystery and because “no one knew of any rapture” yet. “In fact, at the time of [Isaiah] the Church itself was not even formed. If [Isaiah] knew and wrote about the Rapture of the Church, then Paul was lying when he said it was a MYSTERY that he was revealing for the first time in Corinthians.

  • what almost all preachers teach is incorrect concerning the rapture, you must use God given wisdom and understand. at the rapture those who are not taken do not see those raptured. why? if everyone see’s people going up into the air to meet the lord. they will know what has happened, therefore how can the beast and false prophet make those who remain believe he is God. remember when the Lord returns those that slept in Christ come back with him. if they are coming back with the Lord why would there dead bodies raise? flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. if the graves were opened at the rapture the same as above would happen; everyone left would know what has happened. that is simple common sense. so what happens at the rapture, we that are taken or should i state what is taken is the soul. the physical body simply falls dead. this is the only way the beast and false prophet can make those left believe he destroyed the evil people. the same goes with the mark of the beast. forget a visible 666, that’s way to simple, and revelations tells us; here is wisdom, wisdom is not easily obtained. who do you think has been using the 666 in all the movies, books, etc. God? no, just the opposite. this is the great deception. and everyone has been taught or heard the number 666 is the mark. use Godly wisdom here, if i was left behind after the rapture i would already know that whoever takes the mark is damned. so using simple logic no one would take this 666 junk that has been drummed and drummed into everyone for several hundred years. but let the spirit of God talk to you as you research the word of God on these things, do not listen unto man.

    • the rapture isn’t until Jesus comes back AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Revelation also says an angel will fly through the air warning not to take the mark or worship the beast. I think this is after the two
      witnesses (probably Enoch and Elijah neither of whom ever died) are
      killed and resurrected and taken up bodily into heaven.

      • MRH

        The two witnesses aren’t either, as per following verse 😉

        Heb 9:27 KJV – And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

        Heb 11:5, 13 KJV – By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. … These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

        Note that Enoch is in the list of those whom died. As for the transfer aspect, we don’t yet know, as scripture doesn’t explain. However apparently he wrote the Book of Enoch, which although not included in the bible, was quoted from by an apostle. Anyway, the book contains holy visions, like with John’s visions in Revelation. But for unknown reasons was rejected by the clergy. And it’s not the only reject either, as many Apocrypha rejects exist, some quoted in the bible.

        P.S. Moses also died and was buried by God in an unknown place. As for Elijah, there is nothing further mentioned after whirlwind event. But if scripture states that all people die, then he must have died too?

        • “Note that Enoch is in the list of those whom died. ”

          how can you say that after what you just quoted?

          “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; ”

          THAT HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH. enoch didn’t die. IT SAYS ENOCH DID NOT DIE yet you say he did and cite this verse as listing him among the dead when it says the opposite!
          Lord Jesus Christ open this man’s eyes!

          Neither did Elijah and in early centuries church writers figured it would be these two who would be the two witnesses, because they would die their first and only time as martyrs, and have unusual powers bringing down fire upon their enemies until the time came for them to die.

          • MRH

            “THAT HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH. enoch didn’t die. IT SAYS ENOCH DID NOT DIE ”

            @Christine Erikson: Lets talk serious scripture study? 💡

            Lexicon :: Strong’s G3346 – metatithēmi (translated) = to transfer

            Lexicon :: Strong’s G1492 – eidō (see) = to perceive by any of the senses

            P.S. No where in the verse does it say that Enoch did not die 😉

          • MRH

            Consider that Enoch died unawares, like in his sleep? Peaceful demise, unlike with martyrs such as with the apostles. And like with Moses, God personally buried Enoch in an unknown grave.

            Many die in sleep even now, but peaceful or terrible, death equals judgment 😯

            Question: Are you prepared for death? I am, as God dwells in me 😀

          • that’s not what The Bible says. dying peacefully in your sleep is not unusual enough to discuss as in Genesis about Enoch.

          • regarding your “serious study” I use Strong’s also.
            the fact is that if not seeing death or not perceiving
            with your senses means you don’t notice it when you
            die, so Enoch died, then the same could be said of anyone
            who dies in their sleep which is ridiculous.

            Genesis 5:20 says “So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years, and he died.” AND LIKEWISE EVERYONE EXCEPT ENOCH.

            Clearly whatever being “translated” means, it does not mean death, because of Enoch it does not say that he died, like everyone else, but that “God translated him.”
            Neither is there any indication of Elijah dying.

            The Hebrews passage essentially attacks the notion of reincarnation which was around back then it is not limited to India.

        • all people die in general, there are exceptions. And the believers at the rapture WILL NOT DIE but their bodies WITHOUT DYING FIRST AND BEING RESURRECTED will be transformed into the resurrection bodies Paul says.

          • re your remark about dying in his sleep like millions don’t do this? how is he the only one who died in his sleep? Not perceived by senses is like idiomatic.
            ALL THE OTHERS IN GENESIS ARE DESCRIBED AS LIVING SO MANY YEARS AND THEN HE DIED. Enoch alone is described as “translated” so whatever it means it does not mean death. people who die in their sleep are always said to have died. There was something peculiar about Enoch’s departure from earth, it wasn’t the normal death.

            The passage in Hebrews is obviously addressing the myth of reincarnation which was around back then, it is not limited to India.

          • MRH

            “all people die in general, there are exceptions”

            @Christine Erikson: What exceptions? Did not Jesus die? Also is he not the first of the risen dead?

            1Co 15:20 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

            Lexicon :: Strong’s G536 – aparchē (firstfruits) The first portion

            P.S. At the rapture all the dead and living will be immortalized 😀

          • “MRH says:

            May 9, 2015 at 12:59 am

            “all people die in general, there are exceptions”

            @Christine Erikson: What exceptions? Did not Jesus die? Also is he not the first of the risen dead?”

            I already stated the exception and I think you did too.
            I Cor. 15:51,52 we shall not all sleep (in death) we shall be changed.

            Those alive for the rapture who have not apostasized by taking the mark or worshipping the antichrist regardless of duress used, those who have not stopped being Christians, WILL NO DIE. they will simply be changed from mortal body to physical immortal indestructible body.

          • if you READ your bible instead of “studying” it with the protestant version of papal authority guides, you would know the answer to “what exceptions?” ELIJAH AND ENOCH. Christ would never have died if He had not had to be sacrificed.

      • MRH

        “the rapture isn’t until Jesus comes back AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Revelation also says an angel will fly through the air warning not to take the mark or worship the beast”

        The mark of the beast does not occur during tribulation but wrath 😉

        The following scripture pertains to the wrath, not tribulation as commonly believed 🙂

        Rev 13:11, 15 KJV – And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. … And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

        Whom is this beast with lambs horns but dragon speech? I suspect the Wicked one, or Satan himself. And what is the ‘image of the beast’? Whatever it is, it comes to life 😯

        Rev 14:9-10 KJV – And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

        Note that the tribulation mention is absent in above passage? Instead the wrath of God is noted relating to the mark or worship aspect 😉

        • not about tribulation? WHAT DO YOU THINK KILLING PEOPLE WHO WON’T WORSHIP THE ANTICHRIST OR TAKE HIS MARK IS?

          THAT IS THE TRIBULATION!

          The wrath is what God sends to avenge the victims of the tribulation!

          the angel flies warning all ahead of time to not back down and take the mark or worship the antichrist NO MATTER WHAT IS DONE TO YOU

          NO MATTER WHAT IS DONE TO ANYONE OR ANTHING YOU CARE ABOUT

          NO MATTER WHAT IS THREATENED REGARDING YOU OR ANYONE OR ANYTHING YOU CARE ABOUT.

          Hide or fight or die. surrender is not an option.

          How can you get so confused? THAT PERSECUTION OF CAUSING THEM TO BE BEHEADED IF THEY DON’T WORSHIP THE ANTICHRIST OR TAKE HIS MARK IS THE TRIBULATION.

          repeat, persecution IS tribulation.

          not wrath. Wrath is WRATH OF GOD, righteous wrath. tribulation is the unrighteous wrath of the devil. persecution.

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  • dongszkie

    how come you say that the church be taken up BEFORE the tribulation when Jesus addressed it to his disciple/apostles and said that his disciples will be affected by the great tribulation reason that it will be shortened in order for them to be saved?They must all proved loyal and faithful to their calling…Matt 24:9-14,21,22…How can they be tested as to their loyalty and faithfulness to God if they’re stock somewhere,spared from the sufferings and trials being experienced by other christian brothers?And Jesus here did not classify his followers between two groups showing others to be spared from woes while the others were to undergo it, but ALL were warned that in order to be saved they must ALL be faithful and loyal to the end..2Tim3:12…EVERY Christians were called upon to have a need of endurace to the end in order to be saved..Lu21:19;Rm5:3,4;15,3,4.Jesus made it clear to them who are destined to be with him in heaven because they suffered with him, meaning their tested quality of faithfulness and loyalty to him as their Lord,showing that most of this class of people will undergo martyrdom for their faith as what the apostles had undergone.Lu.22:19-23.And for this demonstration of faithfulness even to death,they were promised a higher privileged–that they be taken by him to heaven with him to have the privileged to rule with him as king and judges and priest in the Kingdom of God.From among a christian group they are a class chosen by God to be born again with his spirit to be with Christ in heaven as king and priest.Matt22:14;Rev.20:6;They are just a limited group,a little flock who will be given a share of the kingdom with Christ..Lu12:32:Rev14:1,4;Rev7:4;2Tim2:12.Those who qualify to be with Jesus are those with tested quality of their faith. Why do you say that rapture happens BEFORE the antichrist when the apostle John himself mentions antichrist as existing already even in his days?.1Jhn.2:18,22.The apostle John made it clear that this antchrists are denier of Jesus Christ,some of them were former members of the church but now are leaving the faith by apostatizing joining a variant form of christianity.1Jhn2:19, so the AntiChrist that would appear in the last days is not an INDIVIDUAL PERSON but a composite group of people that form as one body, one class of people, that of being denier of Jesus and those that left the faith by apostatizing with false christians.You also says that rapture must come first BEFORE the pestilence and famine, don’t you know that famine,pestilence has been happening on a worldwide scale since the outbreak of Worl WarI, and all kind of people are being affected all over the world? And you also say that rapture is when Jesus come for the church,meaning when they would be taken to heaven himself, then he would be coming as the Second Coming and bring the Church with him. Why take them to heaven in the first place then just to be taken to earth back—having a tour or just sight-seing in heaven?

    • Heather

      Well then I guess by the way you do not rightly divide the word of truth, and by the way you speak of this last generation of born again believers in the age of Grace, that leaves out the believers in Christ in the generations before us!?!?
      There are still born again believers who truly follow Jesus in this generation, so how our we any different from the previous born again believers in our Lord Jesus Christ that we would have to endure in the 7 year Tribulation? ??? Jesus paid it all to redeem us. We are not redeemed by being hurled into the tribulation!

    • Bro. Nick Nicholas

      dongszkie – While there are so many different ‘mysterious’ and ‘unusual’ spiritual and physical occurrences and phenomena happening all around the world – simultaneously – more and yet more frequently – that should make it increasingly clear to those “few in number” who are truly “born again” believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” – ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ that DO have “an heart to perceive”, “ears to hear”, and “eyes to see” to perceive” the promises that “the church” will not be on earth for “the wrath of the Lamb” which are specifically written in “the word of the LORD”

      – the actuality is that it seems that Biblical discernment is at an all time low amongst most of those that ‘preach’ – and that attend ‘church’
      – there are actually fewer and ever fewer that are even aware of – OR are willing to listen – OR want to learn about the incredible eternal dangers of the unprecedented ‘spiritual deceptions, delusions, and deliberate deceit’ – and ‘verbal semantics’ – and the willing and wanton “falling away” from “the truth” – just exactly as “the Lord Jesus Christ” personally warned would happen
      – and it is happening ever more rapidly – RIGHT NOW
      – and how many more satanicly inspired ‘spiritual deceptions and lies’ will there be TOMORROW
      – AND THE DAY AFTER THAT – AND ……. !!!!!!

      Oh the wondrous “mystery” that the Apostle Paul revealed:
      “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
      In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
      For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
      So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
      (1 Cor 15:51-54, KJB)

      As for me ~ I AM LISTENING IN ANTICIPATION ~ Perhaps TODAY!
      “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      ~ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
      ~ with the voice of the archangel,
      ~ and with the trump of God:
      and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
      ~ and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
      (1 Thess 4:15-18, KJB)

      ~ Emphasis of “the word of the LORD” is mine ~ Bro. Nick

    • Desma Jones

      After the Lord removes the “called out assembly”, he deals with Israel. The tribulation, Jacob’s trouble is the last week of Daniel and is God dealing to get Israel to accept Christ as the messiah. It is not the “church’s trouble” if you notice. There will be Jews who will be sealed, the 144,000, His Elect upon the earth as well as there will be tribulation saints that will refuse to take the mark and die. After the body of Christ is removed, that is the end of the grace dispensation. There is a scripture that says, “those who endure to the end will be saved”. You notice, this is not a word of grace. There will be s different dispensation of worshipping God as the creator. In Revelation, the angel that flys throughout heaven, read what gospel the angel is preaching. It is not the gospel of grace.

  • Deborah

    Geoffrey — Thank you for this excellent article! Showing a comparison of the two events and how they differ was very useful and good information to know. I couldn’t agree more that what the church needs more than anything else is good theological DOCTRINE which results from rightly dividing the Bible. So many Christians are lacking in Bible knowledge in these times that they are mostly unable to give a good defense against the evil onslaught. We just cannot remain babes. I totally appreciate the correct doctrinal teachings on this site. Blessings!!

    • Bro. Nick Nicholas

      Deborah – Well said, and Thank you.

      I have heard Pastor Charles Lawson, Knoxville, TN talk about the ever growing lack of Biblical knowledge and understanding amongst most that call themselves ‘pastors’ – and those who occupy the pews here in ‘Amerika’
      – ‘cafeteria christianity’ – most ‘pick and choose’ – 1, 2, or maybe even 3 helpings of what they do like – and totally rejecting that which they do not
      – 35 miles wide, and 1/8 inch deep

      It is my Biblical understanding that the following – which is written in “the word of the LORD” – should speak very loudly in warning here in ‘Amerika’ – and nearly every other country in this world:
      Ҧ My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
      because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me:
      seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
      As they were increased,
      so they sinned against me:
      therefore will I change their glory into shame.
      They eat up the sin of my people,
      and they set their heart on their iniquity.”
      (Hosea 4:6-8, KJB)
      .

  • Lori Breedlove

    I do believe the Rapture and the Second Coming are two separate events, however, in 1 Corinthians 15:51,42 it states that the Rapture will happen “at the last trump.” This seems to indicate a post-tribulation Rapture, possibly immediately before the Day of Wrath? This has been a point of confusion to me as I was raised to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and now am no longer sure of that belief. Can anyone elaborate on this verse and end my confusion?

    • Joe Green

      The seven year tribulation is divided into two halves. During the first half, the antichrist makes war upon the Saints and persecutes them. Jesus said we would be persecuted and beheaded for his name. Jesus said we would be saved from the wraith of GOD. The second half of the tribulation is GOD pouring out his wraith upon the antichrist and his followers. That would put the rapture in the middle of the great tribulation. There is no biblical basis for a pre-tribulation rapture as it is just not there. Jesus clearly stated that we would be persecuted by the antichrist so how can he persecute us if we are already gone? The trumpets of Revelation are going on now so the antichrist will probably be revealed by the end of 2016. Three and one half years of hell for the believers followed by the rapture and then three and one half years of serious hell for the non-believers followed by the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. That should put the end sometime around 2022 or 2023. If you are still here then, you will be going to the White Throne Judgement and then to the lake of fire.

      • Heather

        All 7 years will be God’s judgments on an unbelieving wicked, evil, unGodly people. Read Revelation again. His judgements only increase as they continue,and continue, and continue to curse God and WILL NOT REPENT! Other wise what is the sense of having the first 3 & 1 half years???

        • Heather

          “The Trumpets of Revelation are gong on now” ??
          What happened to the Seals Judgements? 1st Seal Revelation 6:3 Antichrist shows up. Seal 2 Peace taken from the earth. We still have peace in various homes throughout the earth. Seal 3 We are still not having to work all day to pay for a loaf of bread. 4th Seal A fourth of the people on earth has been killed in the past year or so? 6th Seal Has that great earthquake happened yet that causes th stars to fall from haven like a fig tree being shaken? Oh again has the 7 year false peace treaty already been confirmed by the Antichrist with the many and with Israel?

          So the 144,000 has already showed up? Not to mention the two witnesses? Oh and the Church is still here.

          • Iceman4Christ

            Many Great points Heather! 🙂

        • Albert Dixon

          Heather, the Rapture is Pre-Wrath.

      • pilot77

        Joe
        You are so right on and I have many scriptures that prove just what you said. 2 Thess: 2:1-4, which is quoted in this article should help people to understand this. I have written an article on this but you said it and I will confirm it.
        Thank you Joe
        DFW

        • Ron Murphy

          I really feel sorry for you, people. You don’t see the train wreck that’s coming. You don’t have a clue. It saddens me. It makes me want to cry, so, I cry out to God on your behalves. But God will only lead you farther astray for rejecting the truth. If you insist then God will not help you and you people indeed insist. So believe what you demand. Some of us have tried to help you. So not doing so well at it. Others bringing forth the word in total clarity. But blind people with eyes, refuse to see. My heart goes out to you. Because you don’t seek God’s word with patience, but seek others to lead you, you will be tempted.

          Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

          Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
          Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

          Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
          Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

          And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
          Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;

          Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:

          I have struggled with many of you on here, to bring forth the truth of God’s word. What shall be the end of it all? My heart cries, I have heavy sorrow today, for the multitudes that will be in the valley of decision. Don’t blame God because you were to stubborn to open your eyes. The prophets of God were hated for their words from God, so they slew the prophets. Warnings come with a price, but oh, what you can buy with that price? The prophets are already redeemed, Rev 5:9. He that saves his life shall lose it, he that loses it shall for Jesus’ sake, shall saved it. Open your eyes?

          • George

            Amen Rob,

            I too see the destruction coming upon the people as they are all lifting hands waiting for their Lord to rescue them from the coming tribulation. History will always repeat itself as we read about the Jews welcoming their Messiah with palm trees shouting Hosanna! The word Hosanna means “Save Now!” The Jews during the time of Jesus entry into Jerusalem were under great oppression by the Romans and the doctrine in the synagogues was that their Messiah would come to save them from that oppression – from the tyrannical Roman rule. They were expecting a physical salvation but as it continues on, they quickly turned against their Messiah 6 days later when that salvation didn’t come in the way they expected.
            So it will be in the second coming of Jesus Christ. The modern day Christian will be expecting their Messiah to come rescue them from the persecution that they will be facing at the time of the Great Tribulation. These will be the people that Paul was talking about when he mentions the Great Apostasy – the falling away from biblical truth. They are taking this pre-trib teaching as the dogmatic Word and promise of God. They are not following sound doctrine but instead turning ears from the truth and trusting in the fables of man. My Lord Jesus Christ cannot be any clearer in Matthew 24:29-31 that “after the tribulation of those days” He says that He will come in the clouds with the sound of the trumpet to gather His elect. Same “clouds” & same “trumpet” that Paul speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that is the now famous “RAPTURE” verse. But the same people that believe in a pre-trib rapture will say that this passage in Matthew 24 is for the Jews only, that Jesus was speaking to the Jews and that the Jews are the “elect”. Then you point them to a few verses after in Matthew 24:40-41 during the same conversation that Jesus was having with His disciples when He says: ” Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” And ask them, then what is this event? They will undoubtedly agree that it’s the rapture – but how can it be when He’s supposedly talking only to the Jews? Let’s get one thing straight, the “elect” is the church. The Greek word used by Jesus here is the word “eklektos”. It is used 24 times in the NT and used by Paul several times to describe the Gentile Church, NOT the Jews. Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

            Understand that the Pre-Trib doctrine is a fairly new doctrine. There is no evidence of this doctrine prior to the 1830’s when John Nelson Darby – The Father of Modern Day Dispensationalism promoted this notion of a secret rapture. Then came the Scofield Reference Bible which made this teaching mainstream and made it’s way through most of the modern day Seminaries.

            People need to understand that the Pre-Trib doctrine is a deceiving doctrine of MAN! It is not of God. 10 out of 10 people will tell you that they’ve heard of the Pre-Trib Rapture from someone else – a pastor, a book, a movie or a third-person. They will never honestly tell you that they learned it only and directly from reading the scriptures. You see, Satan will always use man to twist scripture and to deceive God’s people. The bible warns us 95 times about being deceived and 35 of those are directly linked to doctrine.

            God tells us 45 times in the New Testament that we will go through tribulation. A couple of examples are:
            Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
            2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

            Most Christians confuse tribulation and the wrath of God. Those are two completely separate words and the misunderstanding of The Book of Revelation has even furthered this deception. The wrath of God does not come until the end. The bible is clear when it mentions that the Beast in Revelation 13:7 will wage war against the saints and overcome them. Guess what Christians? You are those saints!

            Christians need to be prepared spiritually for the persecution that soon awaits us. If you are not preparing spiritually, then the oil in your lamp will fade away and you will miss the bridegroom when He finally arrives. Read Matthew 25:1-13 and humbly ask our Lord to show you where you stand in this scripture.

            I can keep going but as with most, pride is an impossible beast to convince. I urge you brothers and sisters to humble yourselves and take it before the Lord. If you ask Him with an open heart and an open mind, He will lead you into all truth. John 16:13

            I’ll leave you with this warning from the apostle Paul:

            2 Timothy 4:1-4
            I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
            For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

            In Love through Christ,

            George

    • Angel

      There is a Jewish feast called the Rosh Hashanah or the Feast of Trumpets which I think coincides with what Paul was talking about. Here’s an excerpt from Wikipedia: “The Holy One said, ‘on Rosh Hashanah recite before Me [verses of] Sovereignty, Remembrance, and Shofar blasts (malchuyot, zichronot, shofrot): Sovereignty so that you should make Me your King; Remembrance so that your remembrance should rise up before Me. And through what? Through the Shofar.’ (Rosh Hashanah 16a, 34b)”[8] This is reflected in the prayers composed by the classical rabbinic sages for Rosh Hashanah found in all machzorim where the theme of the prayers is the strongest theme is the “coronation” of God as King of the universe in preparation for the acceptance of judgments that will follow on that day.

      God always uses Jewish feast days in key events in the Bible. For example, Jesus died during Passover. He rose from the dead during Feast of First Fruits. The Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit during Pentecost. We also must remember that that ‘trump’ may not exactly be the 7th Angel’s Trumpet since God’s voice sounds also sounds like a trumpet (Revelations 4:1 is one example of this).

      I’m not Jewish but my research has led me to think that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. Besides, what husband would let his wife be raped, decapitated, beheaded before the wedding? Its also God’s nature to save the righteous before unleashing his wrath (For example: Noah, Lot).

      • Mike Campbell

        I think Israel is the Bride of Christ not the Church.

        • Angel

          It is clear that Israel is the Bride of YHWH in the Old Testament through the Old Covenant of the Mosaic Laws. It is even said in this in this verse in Jeremiah 3:14 that Gd already considers himself married to the nation of Israel. “Return, O backsliding children,” says the Lord; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.”

          The Church (the Ecclesia made of both gentile and Jew who believes in the messiah) is the Bride of Yeshua or Jesus Christ through the new covenant of Jesus’ sacrifice. As it is said that in Revelations 19:7 “Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,for the marriage of the Lamb has come,and his Bride has made herself ready;”. So yup, quite different.

        • pilot77

          Israel is the Bride of the Father and the Church is the Bride of Christ.

          • And this (pilot77’s post) reveals another theological danger of dispensationalism. It leads to views like this – that Almighty God is a bigamist.

        • And this reveals the theological danger of dispensationalism. It leads to heresies like this – the New Testament is crystal clear that the church is the bride of Christ

      • Jim.black

        Hi Angel,

        Since Jesus fulfilled the first four feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits and Pentecost), would it seem reasonable that he will fulfill the remaining three? I’m sure all would agree that Day of Atonement is the second coming and Tabernacles is the millennium. But what about the feat of trumpets? Could that be the rapture? Rosh Hoshana (Trumpets) is a two day feast because the priests never knew which day of the month the new moon would appear. All they could say was, “We don’t know the hour or the day.” Where have we heard that before?:)

        • Angel

          Hi Jim! Thank you for pointing out that they also do not know the day or the hour to start the Day of Trumpets! Fascinating isn’t it. And yes, I do agree that its reasonable to believe that the rapture might happen during that feast day. God is constant and never changes. He has established those Jewish feast days for a reason and I’m excited for it!

          • Why is almost the entire Christian world, think there will be a rapture? What part of the bible gives proof that the church will be rapture out? Have any of you ever read Ezekiel 13: 17-23? Christ will return only one(1) time, as King of Kings, Lord of Lords!! And it will NOT be to rapture the church. The word ‘rapture’, is not in the word of God. You cannot get it from 2nd Thessalonians 4:17, because the subject and article start in 2nd Thessalonians 4:13!!This will be Satan’s message; I’ve come to rapture you out! You need to remember, Satan comes at the 6 seal, 6 trump, 6 vial!! “666” Christ will return at the 7 seal, 7 trump, 7 vial!! Enough said.

    • Iceman4Christ

      Hi Lori! No need for confusion because God is not the author of confusion! 🙂

      1Co 14:33 -For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

      Lets remember that when Paul said at The Last trump he wasn’t speaking about the 7th Trumpet of Revelation. It wasn’t even written when he wrote to the Corinthians.

      So ask your self, where did Paul get this last trump and when was the 1st trump ever blown?

      If you remember back in Exodus 19 when God spoke His voice was the Trumpet! This was the first time God’s voice sounded like a Trumpet.

      In Numbers 10. God instructed Moses to make 2 silver trumpets. Which are a mirror or a shadow of things in heaven.

      Silver in the bible is always a picture of salvation and redemption. If you read you will see that when they are blown they are for gathering a people. Preparing them for a journey. Also they are blown when going to war so God can save them from their enemies.

      So the 1st trump was blown for the nation of Israel to take them on a journey to the promise land.

      The last trump is for the church to gather them and take them to heaven as you will see in these next verses.

      Key verse: Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (Rev.1), and the things which are (Rev.2-3), and the things which shall be hereafter(Rev.4-22);

      In Revelation 1, John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet which speaks to him. He turns around to see who’s this voice is and he sees Jesus the Christ!

      Then in Rev. chapters 2-3 Jesus has a message to the Believers or churches. Some great, some good and others bad.

      To the church or believers of Thyatira in Rev 2:22 Jesus says, …Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

      Jesus said the same thing in Luke 21:36 – Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

      Then in Revelation 4:1 Jesus the Christ calls us up with His voice. This is the Rapture taking place.

      Rev.4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

      Its as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 – For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

      1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

      This is also where Matthew 25:10 takes place.

      Then in Revelation ch. 5 you read about the church in Heaven.

      Revelation 6 through 18 is the Tribulation.

      Revelation 19 is the 2nd coming and we come back with him. (See Joel 2:16, Jude 1:14) The judgement of the nations, this is also where He separates the sheep from the goats.( See Matthew 25:32) The anti-Christ and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

      Revelation 20 Satan is bound in the bottomless pit, the 1000yr reign of Christ and The Great White Throne Judgement.

      Revelation 21 The New Heaven and Earth, The New Jerusalem and The Millennial Temple.

      Revelation 22 is the Glory of God. Jesus is the Alpha & Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

      Hope this helps and sheds light on a Hot Topic that many believers and non believers alike seem to twist, confuse, hate or ignore.

      Be blessed!

      • Heather

        Iceman4Christ, reading your post in what you said and how you laid it out, was very refreshing. Thank you for taking the time.
        Last year I took the time to study the Feast of the Lord. I was stunned by the unexpected golden nuggets that I encountered.
        This September is looking like it may be a HUGE month for Israel and maybe for the rest of the world. We have the Feast of Trumpets September 13th & 14th, there is a partial Solar eclipse Sept 13th. There is the 7 year Shemittah ending on Sept 13th with a huge chance of a global economic collapse possibly happening in this month.There is the Day of Atonement September 24th.There is a Super Blood Moon September 24th. Then there is The Year of Jubilee that happens only every 49 years for Israel. There is the Feast of Tabernacles September 28th-Oct 4th.
        Indeed, the Lord seems to be screaming, ” WAKE UP TIME IS SHORTER THAN YOU THINK!”!
        Notice how Jade Helm 15 starts July 15th and ends September 15th? Then Pope Francis is to address Congress September 24th over Sustainable development, which is really a disguise for Agenda 21!

        • Iceman4Christ

          Thanks Heather. 😀

          Yes I agree with you. Ever since 2008 I too have been looking into the Shmita year, the Feast of the Lord and the blood moons. I even looked into the Mazzaroth and found how it tells the Gospel Story in the Heavens. Pretty cool.

          To bad they don’t teach all this at your local worship center. 🙁 It’s just sad that when you talk to them about these things they give you a blank stare and either don’t have a clue or don’t seem to care.

          But! Thanks to Teachers like Mark Biltz, Jonathan Cahn and Perry Stone. As well as other prophecy watchers like LA Marzulli, Tom Horn, Cris Putnam, Gary Stearman, Bill Salus and many other brothers and sisters much like yourself. Who have there eyes open and are out there reaching out and warning everyone. Keep up the great work and God Bless you for encouraging others for the LORD! Also thank you for the info you post.

          Look up for your redemption draws near!

        • Bro. Nick Nicholas

          I am making a very strong WARNING about this coming September
          – There are a number of Biblically sound Pastors, Teachers, and ordinary folks that have the very strong sense of urgency that ‘something big’ is about to occur – and I totally agree –

          HOWEVER there is so much excitement and ‘hype’ – it seems to me that it is more frequently approaching paranoia – by ‘more than a few’ in anticipation of the ‘convergence’ during September 2015 of so many ‘physical events’
          – that may
          – OR may not even have Biblically Prophetic significance

          – there are a number of folks that are saying that ‘the Rapture’ will occur during ‘such and such’ event
          – and there also some who are ‘date setting’ – and justifying their non-Biblical actions from the Holy Bible

          ~ BUT we must ALWAYS remember the STRONG WARNINGS that are plainly written in “THE WORD OF THE LORD”:
          “A fool also is full of words:
          a man cannot tell what shall be;
          and what shall be after him,
          who can tell him?”
          (Ecc 10:14, KJB)

          “Watch therefore,
          for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”
          (Matthew 25:13, KJB)

          ——————————————————————

          We truly are living in “the last time” when there will be the Biblically Prophesied unprecedented
          – ‘spiritual deceptions, delusions, and deliberate deceit’
          – and ‘verbal semantics and attacks’ using disinformation, propoganda, and outright lies
          – and the ever increasingly rapid “falling away” from “the truth” into Apostasy
          – and the more common acceptance of various Heresies

          ? ? ? ? ? ?
          Has anyone considered that there may be the very real possibility that September of 2015 is a massive and extremely “subtil”, deceptive, evil, cunning, malevolent plan by the arch-enemy of our souls – “Lucifer”, “the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan” and his untold numbers of “familiar spirits” and “unclean spirits” who are/will use ‘false flag’/’black flag’ non-events to cause much doubt and strife
          – AND will thus bring into question the validity of those many Christian Preachers – and Teachers and ‘Folks’ that are putting out such strong warnings and statements about Sep 2015
          – BUT PRIMARILY for the destruction of the faith of many Christians:
          “Little children,
          it is the last time:
          and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
          even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
          – They went out from us, but they were not of us;
          ~ for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
          – but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
          (1 John 2:18-19, KJB)

          How many of those of us that truly are “born again” believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” take the many warnings seriously that we are given in “the word of the LORD”?

          This one was personally given by “Jesus the Christ”:
          “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
          Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
          – Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there:
          – and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”
          (Matt 12:43-45, KJB)

          ~ “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
          ~ Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
          ~ Be sober, be vigilant;
          – because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
          ~ Whom resist stedfast in the faith,
          knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
          But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus,
          after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
          ~ To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.
          ~ Amen.”
          (1 Peter 5:6-11, KJB)

          “Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
          But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
          not walking in craftiness,
          nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
          ~ but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid,
          – it is hid to them that are lost:
          – In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
          lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
          (2 Cor 4:1-4, KJB)

          ==================================================================

          PLEASE READ, HEED, AND APPLY the Biblical lessons in 1 Kings, Chapter 13, Verses 1-32 | 2 Timothy 2:15 | Acts 17:11-12, KJV !

          The true believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” ~ WE MUST ALWAYS ~ ALWAYS ~ ALWAYS REMEMBER:
          “(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)”
          (2 Cor 5:7, KJB)

          and LISTEN
          ~ perhaps Dear Lord God Almighty this will be ‘the day’ when:

          ~ “FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT,
          ~ WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL,
          ~ AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD:
          and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
          Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
          ~ AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.
          ~ WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS.”
          (1 Thess 4:16-18, KJB)

          ~ CAPITALization and emphasis of “the word of the LORD” is mine – Bro. Nick

        • MRH

          I am making a very strong WARNING about this coming September

          @ Bro. Nick Nicholas: WARNING! Be careful what you believe out there, as there have been many failed predictions over the years; Y2K millennium, 11-11-11 enigma, 2012 London Olympics nuke, 12-24-2012 Mayan prophecy, etc. Also Paul instructed us not to worry, about fear mongers. And remember that God is still in control, so Satan still has boundaries he must obey 😉

          • Bro. Nick Nicholas

            MRH – for clarification about my Biblical beliefs –
            ======================================

            PLEASE READ, HEED, AND APPLY the Biblical lessons in 1 Kings, Chapter 13, Verses 1-32 | 2 Timothy 2:15 | Acts 17:11-12, KJV !

            The true believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” ~ WE MUST ALWAYS ~ ALWAYS ~ ALWAYS REMEMBER:
            “(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)”
            (2 Cor 5:7, KJB)

            and LISTEN
            ~ perhaps Dear Lord God Almighty this will be ‘the day’ when:

            ~ “FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT,
            ~ WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL,
            ~ AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD:
            and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
            Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
            ~ AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.
            ~ WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS.”
            (1 Thess 4:16-18, KJB)

            ~ CAPITALization and emphasis of “the word of the LORD” is mine – Bro. Nick

      • Iceman4Christ

        YES & AMEN!!! XLNT XLNT JOB!! Our Pastor Jon Courson taught us this. THANK YOU.. WELL DONE 😉

        • Iceman4Christ

          Lol! Whoever you are? 😀 I Love Pastor Jon Courson! Great Teacher of the Word of God.

      • take note; in Thessalonians it starts with; not to worry for those who sleep in Christ, (already dead, physical body), take note; these will God bring with him. (why would the dead bodies rise)? take note; we that remain unto the coming of the Lord shall be caught up with them in the air. (remember those that slept in Christ are coming back, not coming out of the grave) also regarding resurrections; what happened right after Christ arose from the grave; many of the saints that slept were seen walking in the streets. that is important, or it would not have been placed in the scriptures. as far as the rapture, remember the verse that states; that the antichrist cannot take power before he that withhold be taken out of the way. only one thing can stop the antichrist from taking power and deceiving and that is the Holy Spirit. when the rapture happens the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth, this allows the deceiver to deceive. but these things are not something we as Christians should squabble about, our job is to try and bring light to those who sit it darkness.

        • Iceman4Christ

          Thank you for un-rightly dividing the Word! 🙁

          The Lord raises the dead bodies with a shout! These dead bodies will be raised incorruptible and will be joined with their Spirit that God brings back. As it says in v 14.

          1Th 4:14

          For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

          1Th 4:16

          For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

          As for the Old testament Saints that rose from the dead in the gospels they were part of the first-fruits that the scriptures talks about. They went to heaven with Jesus about 2000 yrs ago. There are many raptures through out the bible.

          As far as the Holy Spirit holding back the antichrist I do agree with you.

          Please take note sir and please rightly divide the Word of God.

    • Marsha

      Lori, I too am confused about this point. hope someone can explain it.

    • Bro. Nick Nicholas

      I do Pray that the following will be of interest to you, and to those that truly do believe that “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him” –

      The word “trump” is used only two (2) times in the entire “word of the LORD”, the Holy Bible, KJV
      ~ both are in the NEW Testament

      ~ 1) 1 Corinthians 15:52 ~ “THE last TRUMP”
      “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
      In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
      at THE last TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET shall sound,
      and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
      For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
      So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
      then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
      (1 Cor 15:51-54, KJB)

      ~ 2) ~ 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ~ “THE TRUMP of God”
      “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
      (1 Thess 4:15-18, KJB)

      The words ” the trumpet” | “the trumpets” are written 68 times in the Holy Bible, KJV
      ~ of which only 4 verses are in the NEW Testament

      – 1) “For if THE TRUMPET give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?”
      (1 Cor 14:8, KJB)

      ~ 2) “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
      In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
      at THE LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET shall sound,
      and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
      For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
      So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
      then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
      (1 Cor 15:51-54, KJB)

      – 3) “And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of THE TRUMPET of the three angels,
      which are yet to sound!”
      (Revelation 8:13, KJB)

      – 4) “Saying to the sixth angel which had THE TRUMPET,
      Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.”
      (Revelation 9:14, KJB)

      ~ CAPITALIZATION of WORDS and emphasis of “the word of the LORD” are mine – Bro. Nick
      .

  • Linda Jensen

    Hallelujah! Thank You for spending so much time putting this together. Geoffrey, people need to get out of their arguing the WORD and do what God has commanded us to do as Believers. Go ye out into all the world and make disciples of men.

    Remember people, the Great Tribulation will be worse than the world has ever known. Praise God for “the Blessed Hope”! Keep Reading the Word and Praying and Looking up!

    Thank You Again for this wonderful Blog!

    In Him, Linda

  • Robert L.

    Why does any of this matter ?

    Reason # 1. New Living Translation
    And now the prize awaits me–the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on the day of his return. And the prize is not just for me but for all who eagerly look forward to his appearing.

    Reason # 2. Here’s the second reason : Urgency. If you knew that Christ was returning next week, would you book a nice vacation ? Of course not. Do you think perhaps that you might tell your wayward son or daughter, your relatives, your co-workers, your next door neighbors, to get saved real fast ? What, no concern for them at all ? Don’t care ?

    Reason # 3. Judgement. No,no, not the Great White Throne judgement, but the judgement of believers. Yup, the one where rewards are handed out. Were your works all hay & stubble ? Did you wish to feel shame or regret ? Sorry now that you didn’t give up that porn problem ? Never got things dealt with before you were wisked away to meet God ? Think it might have been nice to get a little head start and get your life right before God ?

    Reason # 4 : For goodness sake, its in the Bible. God put it there. For the New Testament church. That means YOU.

    • The verse you quoted from 2 Timothy 4:8, when read in the King James, restores the original meaning and intent of the Author – “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:8 (KJV)

  • Bill L.

    Why is it important?
    I think JESUS said for us to watch and not be caught unawares and isn’t there a crown of righteousness for all that love HIS appearing? Yes and JESUS is coming to take us home. Praise be to GOD ALMIGHTY, KING OF THE UNIVERSE. Thanks Geoff.
    Your fellow warrior IN CHRIST.

  • Heather

    Thank you sooooo much for this article of TRUTH Mr Grider!!!!According to how late the hour is, if you would, please that least once a month???!!I love this article!
    Lets be reminded that there very little discussion on Revelation 4 Chapters 4 and 5. Brethren, take time to really read these two Chapters.Read them carefully. The Lord may just show you what you are looking for.

    Revelation 4 King James Version (KJV)

    4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

    *********4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT; AND THEY HAD ON THEIR HEADS CROWNS OF GOLD.**************

    5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

    6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

    7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

    8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

    10 THE FOUR AND TWENTY ELDERS FALL DOWN BEFORE HIM THAT SAT ON THE THRONE, AND WORSHIP HIM THAT LIVETH FOREVER AND EVER,AND CAST THEIR CROWNS BEFORE THE THRONE SAYING,

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
    King James Version (KJV)
    Also
    Revelation 5:8-14
    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    9 AND THEY SANG A NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION; **(NOTE THIS IS NOT ANGELS TALKING NOR ISRAEL’S ELDERS)**

    10 AND HAST MADE US UNTO OUR GOD KINGS AND PRIEST: AND WE SHALL REIGN EARTH. **(NOTE THIS IS BEFORE JESUS STARTS TO BREAK THE SEALS)**

    11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    Capitalization and notations in parenthesis emphasis mine.
    Notice they have on raiment’s of white linen and golden crowns. Wouldn’t they have had to appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ to have received these gifts of rewards??

    • Angel

      Excellent point. Jesus also said that the apostles will also judge over the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.) Which means that they need to be raised from the dead first during the rapture before they get their crowns.

      I have always alluded the part in Revelations 4:5 that there are 7 lamp stands burning before the throne as also representing the raptured Church because in Revelations 1:20 it is said that the seven lamp stands that John saw are the seven churches. Jesus even warns the Church of Ephesus that he will remove their lamp stand from its place unless they repent.

      • Heather

        Thank you for making that point Angel! It is amazing, you have highlighted the 7 lamps in these verses connecting them to Revelation 1:20. I missed that.
        I didn’t mean to disclude the 12 Apostle’s in that scene though. I was so focused on the wording of the scriptures indicating the Church is there that I failed to mention them as well.
        God bless you sister.

        • Angel

          I have a feeling that the 12 apostles + the 12 sons of Jacob (or maybe other prophets) make up the 24 elders. We’ll just see when we are in heaven. I can’t wait! God bless you too!

          • Heather

            Angel, is there a way that I might contact you. I would like to talk with you more concerning the Feast of the Lord.

      • Correction: The 7 lamps standing before the throne does NOT represent the “rapture Church”!! The word “RAPTURE” is NOT in the word of God! It is a “false doctrine”. You should read the 2nd episel of John; 9-11! Jesus will return only one (1) time and, that’s at the 7th seal, 7th trump and 7th vile. Satin comes at the 6th seal, 6 trump and 6 vile. His message, I’ve come to fly you out of here, (rapture) 6 still comes before 7. You may want to read Ezekiel 13: 17-23.

        • MRH

          “The word “RAPTURE” is NOT in the word of God” = Correct, but it is implied. 1Th 4:16-17 KJV – For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

          “Jesus will return only one (1) time and, that’s at the 7th seal, 7th trump and 7th vile” = Yes and no. Indeed there is only one return, but it is a two stage event 😉

          http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=32728#comment-1098933

  • berk walker

    Where in the Bible might I find reference to “rightly dividing” and the separate intended targets of scripture?

    Enjoyed the article, Thank you.
    b-

    • Thank you! “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

  • Oh my, Thank you for taking the time to “lay all this out” for everyone!
    More importantly to me, is our heart towards the Lord above all else, as in remaining with HIM in spirit – rather than to the letter…
    2 Timothy 2:15 – in this passage when used in context signifies to hasten to, endeavor to give diligence, do one thing, “be diligent” or pay attention. Yet to most Churches it is often misunderstood, and thought to be showing a diligence in academia; rather than how it was intended to read. 2 Timothy 2:15 in the American Standard Version, for example, reads like this… 15) Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth. To me, that is the greater issue, than the correct sequence of events; although you may well be correct.

  • berk walker

    I was already move to read 2 Timothy 15. I was hoping for other reference(s), thx.

  • Don Campbell

    Your reason number one is enough to establish that you evidently do not believe the Bible as you claim and that you “wrongly divide” the Word of Truth. The answer to your proposition of “how can the rapture and the second coming be the same?” is simply this: they are not the same thing, the two events happen on the same day. The passage in 2Thes 2 that you “wrongly divided” explains very plainly the problem if you read and “believe” the truth. “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”
    The passage in context plainly states that Christ comes (second coming) and gathers (rapture) on the same day “the day of Christ, and that day follows the revealing of the antichrist.
    Another fact that should be obvious Is that the second coming IS the Blessed Hope for BELIEVERS and a day of woe and fear for unbelievers. I look forward to hearing how a “real” Bible believer answers one who is foolish enough to believe the Bible as it is written and not privately interpreted by men .

    • Quoting you where you say “The passage in context plainly states that Christ comes (second coming) and gathers (rapture) on the same day “the day of Christ, and that day follows the revealing of the antichrist.”…you DO realize that you just had the Rapture AND the Second Coming take place immediately after the revealing of the Antichrist, right? So. in your reasoning, the Rapture and the Second Coming happen at the start of the Tribulation, so how can Jesus return at the END of the Tribulation to fight the battle of Armageddon??? You might want to rethink your position.

      • Don Campbell

        You are mistaken. I never said, nor does the Scripture, that the coming and gathering happen “immediately” after the antichrist is revealed. The passage does however teach exactly what I stated. The antichrist is revealed before Christ returns for His church and executes His wrath on the lost.
        And, by the way. For a good example of the fact that the Lord has excellent aim and can protect His people at the same time He is executing wrath on the ungodly, look at the Egyptians versus the Israelites during the plagues.

        • Andrew A

          So Don Campbell based on how you divide your bible could you answer me a few questions.

          What is the Hour of Trial that will come to test all who live on the Earth?

          At what point in Revelation does God’s Wrath begin?

          Also on the promises given to the churches in the start of Revelation what are your thoughts on the promise to the church of Philadelphia?

          Finally do the promises to the churches apply only to that church mentioned or to all who overcome?

          Thank you for your time on responding.

      • Jim Black

        Don didn’t say “immediately” after the revealing of antichrist and apostasy, which could mean that it could be at any time after these two events, especially at the end of the tribulation:) Why did you say his reasoning is that rapture and second coming happen at the start of the tribulation, right after he said they happen at the end of the tribulation?

        When the Lord comes, yes, it will be a day of rejoicing for the saints, but a day of destruction for that “aints.”

        Lord Bless

      • todd

        You are assuming that the Day of Christ, which is the same as the Day of the Lord, begins at the start of the Tribulation. It does not. That Day (the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him, otherwise referred to by Paul as the Day of Christ), will not happen until the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin. NOWHERE did he say the Day of the Lord happens IMMEDIATELY after these to events. If you are going to debate, then debate honestly. The Day of the Lord is the Second Coming, good for believers, bad for unbelievers.

    • Jim Black

      Excellent, Don, excellent:)

  • Richard Mann

    Like other teachings associated with the Bible and the Spirit, some have it and understand, while others do not. I believe that the understanding of the rapture, tribulation, and second coming become clearer the closer we get to the rapture of the Church. It seems that more and more people are coming on line to talk about this subject each day. And, you find those who don’t believe are coming out more also. This was dead on to what the Holy Spirit has taught me over the years concerning the next great even of the Church age, and this world.

    Keep up the good work Geoffrey.

  • A christian

    So, you say this is your irrefutable “proof” of the rapture:
    #9: NO ONE IN THE BIBLE KNEW OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH UNTIL IT WAS REVEALED BY THE LORD TO PAUL.

    So, first of all, you are basically not aware that:
    (1) After His resurrection Jesus taught the apostles about the Kingdom of God for 40 days as is clearly seen in Acts 1! Wouldn’t it be strange if He would miss to mention that?
    (2) That Paul always, always stressed that his doctrine is the same as that of the other apostles! For example, in Galatians 2:2 Paul went to Jerusalem to be sure that his Gospel (and Christ’s Second coming is definitely part of the Gospel!) is not different from Peter’s and James’. Also, in 2. Peter 3:15-16 Peter makes sure to mention that Paul’s theology is pretty much in line with his, and that it is only “the error of lawless people” that makes them see anything in Paul that does not conform with Peter’s theology.
    (3) That in the NT “mysterion” is not something that Paul is revealing at the moment of his writting, but something that was previously concealed but that the coming of the Messiah had revealed!

    The rest of your arguments are even worse theologically and biblicaly!

    • On the contrary:

      1). What Jesus taught the disciples in Acts 1 was not Pauline doctrine. If it were then Matthew, Mark and Luke would teach salvation by grace through faith. Yet they do not.in fact, there is nothing of Pauline doctrine anywhere in those writings. Why not?
      2). You forget that Paul REBUKED Peter to his face in Acts 15, and after that Peter fades off the scene. At the end of Peter’s life, he acknowledges that Paul’s doctrine was markedly different from the doctrine he preached, and that it could be hard to understand. “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:16.
      3). Paul taught the rest of the apostles 7 Mysteries that they were previously unaware of.

      • A christian

        Jeffrey,

        I must say that I am AMAZED (in a bad way) of what you wrote as a reply. Let’s start with no. 1:
        1) YOU WROTE: “What Jesus taught the disciples in Acts 1 was not Pauline doctrine. If it were then Matthew, Mark and Luke would teach salvation by grace through faith. Yet they do not.in fact, there is nothing of Pauline doctrine anywhere in those writings. Why not?”

        MY RESPONSE: If what Jesus taught in Acts 1 is not Pauline doctrine, than something is either wrong with Paul or with Jesus! Also, if Matthew, Mark and Luke did not teach salvation by grace through faith, then again something is either wrong with Paul or with Matthew, Mark and Luke! Think again: both Mark and Luke were under the considerable influence of Paul’s teaching prior to their writting of their Gospels!

        2) YOU WROTE: “You forget that Paul REBUKED Peter to his face in Acts 15, and after that Peter fades off the scene. At the end of Peter’s life, he acknowledges that Paul’s doctrine was markedly different from the doctrine he preached, and that it could be hard to understand.”

        MY RESPONSE: First of all, Paul did not rebuke Peter for his false doctrine, but for his hypocrisy. Paul is clear on that when he writes in Gal. 2:13 that “Then the rest of the Jews joined his hypocrisy” and then in Gal. 2:14 Pauls says that they were “deviating from the truth of the gospel”. You cannot deviate from something you didn’t believe… and it is clear from Gal. 2 that Peter believed Pauline – that is, Apostolic – doctrine of salvation, but out of fear and hypocrisy he did what he did.
        Second, please read 2. Peter 3 again and you will see that Peter does not say that Paul teaches something else. In 2. Peter 3:16 Peter says: “He speaks about these things in all his letters in which there are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.” Therefore, it is those untaught and unstable who twist Pauline teaching into something else, something non-apostolic – and they do that to their own destruction. And, Peter’s whole point is that he, Peter, both understood and believed Paul’s teaching, against those who didn’t understand and believe.

        And finaly, YOU WROTE: “Paul taught the rest of the apostles 7 Mysteries that they were previously unaware of.”

        Maybe Paul taught believers in the churches he planted mysteries that they were previously unaware of. But, the Scriptures not only do not say he taught anything that the other apostles didn’t knew, but the whole point in Galatians 1-2 is that he wasn’t teaching another Gospel, but the one that all the other Apostles taught.

        Look, you are probably a decent guy, who thinks that he knows stuff about the Bible, but the truth is that you are not “a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth” (2. Timothy 2:15). You might have a following, but so did almost every false teacher in the history of Christianity.
        Now, I’m NOT saying that you are a heretic. But I am saying that you speak of things that you know not! You are dividing things, even Apostles and Bible books and their teaching (making the teaching of the Bible into different teachings) in ways that the Holy Spirit never intended (2. Peter 1:20-21).

        • ACTS 2:38 is not Paul’s gospel: In Acts 2, after Peter preached they asked “what they should do”. Peter told them exactly the same thing that John the Baptist told people. Repent and be baptised for the remission of sins. This is not the gospel of grace through faith alone. “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:38. When Paul shows up, what he preaches is so revolutionary that ALL the other apostles “stand down”, and Paul is now the “apostle to the Gentiles”. Christians in the age of Grace do NOT get saved by repenting and being baptized.

          • A christian

            Geoffrey,
            if Acts 2:38 is not Paul’s Gospel, then Paul lied in Galatians 2,1-10 when he said that he “communicated unto them (that is, the Apostles) that gospel which I preach” (Gal. 2:2) but “they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.” (Gal. 2:6-9)

            In other words, since Peter and the other apostles “added nothing to” Paul – and primarily Paul was fearful that they might add the circumcision (see v. 3) – it means that they preached the same glorious Gospel: repent and trust Christ (and be baptized as a sign of the inner reality) and you shall be saved!

            For example, when you read Acts and compare Acts 3:19 where Peter spoke: “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord”
            with what Paul spoke at Acts 17:30: “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent”
            and Acts 26:20 “But (I) shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.”

            It is the same message that Peter and Paul were preaching: “Repent!” And then, throughout Paul’s ministry people were told to get baptized upon believing: Acts 16:15, 33; 18:8; 19:5. Not only that, but it was the same Gospel that Paul himself heard proclaimed and believed in Acts 22:16: “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
            Not only that, but throughout his writings Paul writes about both repentance and baptism as a sign of spiritual realities.

            And probably the main problem that you have is your own misunderstanding of Acts 2:38 to mean “works salvation” of some kind. But, dear brother, it is as far from works salvation as Christ’s blood is! Peter is commanding them to repent knowing that it is God who “grants repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18), and that repentance is the product of faith, which is also a gift of God (Eph 2:8: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”). And thirdly, the baptism is not a work either, because Peter commands it in the passive voice: “be baptized” – allow something to be done upon or to you! And from the rest of the New Testament we learn that this water baptism is the sign of spiritual realities of believers being grafted unto Christ, of their death in Christ and resurrection with Christ! It is a means of God’s grace that preaches to our faith through the Spirit of our adoption: you belong to Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone!

            Therefore, it is the same Gospel that Peter and Paul preached! And they balance each other so that if you disregard Peter and read only Paul – you turn into an antinomian of sorts; and if you disregard Paul and read only Peter – you turn into a legalist of sorts. But if you read both – you have the Gospel of Grace revealed in the Scriptures alone for the glory of God alone!

          • A christian

            Also, with regards to the mystery.
            It is clear as a day that to other apostles, and not only to Paul, were given “the mysteries of the kingdom of God” (Matt 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10). And that Paul understood that these “mysteries” were revealed to other apostles also is clear from Romans 16:25-26: “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”
            Also, see that in 1. Corinthians 4:1 Paul tells of both him and Cefas (Peter; cf. 1. Cor 3:22) along with the other apostles (1. Cor 4:9): “Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.”

            Therefore, when Paul tells a mystery to Corinthians 15:51 about “the rapture” at Christ’s second coming, every Bible-fearing exegete will understand that this “mystery” was part of the other mysteries that Peter and the other apostles knew also, as evidenced from 1. Corinthians 4:1.

            And then again, when Paul writes in Ephesians 1:9: “9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

            10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him” note well that this mystery was given first to Peter in Acts 10, and he explained it in Acts 11: “17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” (vv. 17-18).

            Then, Paul says in Colossians that this mystery was indeed a mystery “which hath been hid from ages and from generations” but that “now is made manifest to his saints”, that is, not to Paul only, and not to Peter and the apostles only as some secret gnostic knowledge, but to all the saints “To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:26-27).

            Therefore, the “mystery” is the Gospel and Christ Himself! And both are now revealed to all the apostles, Peter and Paul included, and there is no difference whatsoever between Paul’s Gospel and Peter’s Gospel and James’ Gospel! This difference between them was first invented by liberal scholars who do not believe in the authority and unity of God’s Word, and like I said before: I am amazed that any God-fearing and Bible-believing Christian like yourself would use the very arguments that were devised by the Serpent (“Hath God really said?”) and his liberal theological minions to destroy the “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) in order to find reasons to believe in a pretribulational rapture!

            I have many friends that believe in a pretribulational rapture, and if you want to believe it – believe it. BUT, for the sake of yourself and your readers, please get rid of this liberal nonsense of dividing the Word of God between Peter and Paul! This is very dangerous business, brother!

  • Kim Wilde

    Thank you for another excellent article! May GOD richly bless you and keep you!

  • Pat

    This is the clearest and best comparison that I have come across. Your comments with the relevant scriptures make this subject easy to understand. Thank you very much!!!

  • Marian

    Mr. Grider, I appreciate your work and find much encouragement in your explanations. I have spent 35+ years exploring the Rapture/2nd Coming question. I have yet to find a coherent explanation of the post-Tribulation Rapture. Most of their commentary consists of “you’re stupid for believing in a pre-trib Rapture.” Wading through their insults to get to their exposition is exhausting, but I do just that. Non-Christians think I’m stupid for believing in the Savior! If they think we’re stupid, why do they bother to insult us? I tend to address very gently those I think are stupid. Maybe that’s just me, though. (BTW, I teach Logic, as well as higher level math, so I do have a few functioning brain cells).

  • GWA

    I am not going to sit here this morning and “quote scripture”…..I believe my fellow brothers and sisters have done an excellent job!

    I will ask those who do not believe in a “pre-trib” rapture to ask themselves something.

    Does God Almighty “change” and switch things up and do things differently every time He moves? No, God does NOT change. There is ALWAYS an “order” to His movements and His judgements.

    Did God throw Noah and his family a life raft and say “IF you can hold on through all the rains and death and waves then you will be truly worthy in My eyes”! No, he had Noah build an ARK which kept Noah and his family SAFE until the storms had passed.

    Jesus Christ IS THE ARK! GET IN HIM…..Today is the day of salvation.

    If you don’t know Jesus I urge you to stop what you are doing and go the foot of The Cross and pray, repent and be saved….TODAY! RIGHT NOW!

    Time is short……

    MARANATHA

  • Thank you Brother for setting the record straight! You always do deep research and are eloquent when clarifying The Word! Always refreshing and uplifting to read your work and to be a part of this journey~God Bless! Stacie

  • Allan Rowley

    Pre tribulation rapture is false preaching and antisemitism. Show us in Matt 24 where the Messiah says He will come back 2 times? It was invented by the Jesuits and then played out by Darby and Scoffield. It is a multi billion $ business to sell books and make heaps of money. For starters: Your Greek god takes you to your heaven and you feast away on MacDonald hamburgers and drink wine for 7 years while your Greek god kills most of the Jews? Where do you get that 7 years from? How insanely pathetic. For starters, the God of the Bible is a Hebrew, His Son is a Hebrew. He came for the lost tribes of Israel (Matt 10:6; 15:24). Yes, gentiles can be grafted-in (Romans 11). But gentiles sitting in heaven before being tested/tribulation? We have to be tested to by Yahuweh, He does not want luke-warm gentiles. That is what the tribulation is for, to test believers. Any one can mix Scripture to give your “theory” truth. True believers join the Messiah “in the air” when He returns before His wrath on earth. But believers are not “taken out” before Satan’s wrath here on earth. If you believe they are then please explain to the believers in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, China, Russia etc why they were not raptured? But the Christians in the US will be raptured after living a debased life style of ease and luxury in the land of end times Babylon. Read Rev 18:10 your judgment will come in a day, in fact in an hour. Watch out for the next Feast of Trumpets.
    Now we all know what happens to false preachers and those who believe their lies. Blessings on the Bible believers.

    • Guess you didn’t actually read the article then, I’m thinking. I don’t EVER quote CI Scofield or John Darby, or any other of the “straw men” that Rapture haters use to cast insults on Bible doctrine. It is PAUL who teaches us about the Rapture, no one else. Matthew 24, obviously, is written to JEWS living in ISRAEL. For example, please note the following:

      1). “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:”
      – Christians do not have a “sabbath day”, so who is Jesus talking to?
      2). “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” – Do you live in Judea, which is to say Israel? How can YOU keep this command?
      3). “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” – The Rapture is not the “end of the world”, and “his coming” is not the Rapture. His coming is at the END of the Tribulation.

      I could go on but let’s see if you can grasp these simple, little questions first.

    • Jim Black

      I would be happy to provide you with a “coherent” explanation of post trib rapture. Too long for here. My email is jim.black11@yahoo.com.

      Shalom:)

  • James Staten

    Question, Do you still have a radio program? If you do then I guess I am not looking in the right place. Agree 100% on your biblical rapture article. I have a hard time just trying to explain that it was a “Mystery” revealed to Paul from the Risen Savior. People just don’t get it, but biblical ignorance is the reason, and that is sad!!!!

    • ANSWER: Yes, you have come to the right place. We had a bible study radio show for the past 4 years, and have temporarily taken it off the air to retool it and relaunch it bigger and hopefully better than ever. Christians who don’t rightly divide – all those Matthew 24/Tribulation questions – cannot come to see the truth because they take two different dispensations and try to merge them together. MATTHEW, Mark and LUKE were not written to the Church. Until they can see that, little else makes sense. Thanks for writing!

      • James Staten

        Thank you!!!!

      • Andrew A

        I look forward to the relaunch. This article gives me a small reminder of what I liked about the show when I found it a few months ago.

  • Who are those who will be changed in the twinkling of an eye?
    When will corruptible take on incorruptible?

  • cm

    Excellent article and well explained. Thank you.

  • SRB

    Thank you for that GREAT posting! We needed that! The way you explain it, makes it crystal clear for those who read their KJV Bibles. All the constant questions and contradictions that I had about the NT for years were all cleared up when I heard your teachings that the Bible is written to 3 groups of people…the Jews or the Gentiles or to the Church. And that is where everything fell into place when I heard about the different dispensations and rightly dividing the scriptures from your excellent teachings that I fortunately have saved from blog talk radio.
    God Bless you!

    P.S. Thank you Angel for your insightful comments, too.

    • You are very welcome! Every day we get emails, from Christians, who are constantly working to tear down the doctrine of the Pretrib Rapture. They do this because they do not “rightly divide” their Bibles as Paul commands us to do. And those 3 groups you mentioned – the Jews, Church and the Gentiles – once you got that down, nearly everything else falls into line.

  • Jim Black

    RAPTURE IN THE REVELATION

    One of the major arguments put forth by the pre trib view is that the church is not mentioned between chapters 4-19 of the Revelation. But in Rev. 14:14-16, Jesus is seen on a “cloud” preparing to “reap” the earth at the “loud voice” command of an angel. Jesus is seen coming with the clouds in 1 Thes. 4:17, Matt. 24:31 and Rev. 1:7. It would appear that the angel giving the “loud voice ” command in Rev. 14:15 could be the “voice of the archangel” in 1 Thes. 4:16. This reaping is the gathering of the “wheat” into Jesus’ “barn,” which, in my view, is the rapture of the church at the “end of the age.” If Rev. 14:14-16 isn’t the rapture, then what is it?

    REV. 14:14-16

    14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the CLOUD was one like a SON OF MAN, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another ANGEL came out of the temple, crying out with a LOUD VOICE to Him who sat on the CLOUD, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the HARVEST of the earth is ripe.” 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.”

    MATT. 13:30,39

    30 Let both (wheat and tares) grow together until the harvest, and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, ‘First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but GATHER the wheat into My barn.”

    39 The enemy who sowed them (tares) is the devil, the harvest is the END OF THE AGE, and the reapers are the ANGELS.”

    • It’s not that the church is “not mentioned” in Revelation 4 – 19, it is that the Church is not seen on the Earth in those chapters. There are plenty of verses that talk about the Church but it’s talking about us being in Heaven during all those chapters. Further proof of a Pretrib Rapture. Thanks for writing!

      • Jim.black

        If Rev. 14:14-16 is the rapture, then the church is found to be on earth during the tribulation. What is your understanding of Rev. 14:14-16.

        • Revelation 14:14-16 is not the Church or the Rapture, it is exactly what it says it is. It is the time of “harvesting the earth” of all those who rejected God. These verses show the slaughter that is about to come down from Heaven upon all those who join the Devil in the battle of Armageddon.This is not removing the Church from the earth in the Rapture, this is the prelude to the battle of Armageddon.

          • Jim Black

            Hi Geoff,

            You don’t see any connection between these verses and Matt. 13:30,39 where Jesus says to gather the wheat (harvest) into His barn? And that the wheat represents the saints? The reapers are the angels (Matt. 13:39) and this dovetails with Matt. 24:31.

            Do you not see the possible connection of the “loud voice” of the angel (REv. 14:15) with the “voice of the archangel” in 1 Thes. 4:16? Also, clouds are mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17, Matt. 24:31 and Rev. 1:7. These verses dovetail with Jesus on a white cloud. No?

    • Andrew A

      In order to better understand your point on a post tribulation view or is it a mid? I need to know your answers to the questions I asked Don Campbell earlier.

      Ill repeat them here just to make a response easier.

      What is the Hour of Trial that will come to test all who live on the Earth?

      At what point in Revelation does God’s Wrath begin?

      Also on the promises given to the churches in the start of Revelation what are your thoughts on the promise to the church of Philadelphia?

      Finally do the promises to the churches apply only to that church mentioned or to all who overcome?

      • The Tribulation starts in Revelation 6:1, two chapters after the Rapture in 4:1,2. There is no “church” in the Tribulation, as the Church has already been taken out, the age of Grace over, and now salvation is a combination a faith in Jesus Christ and your own works. Just like it was in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Surprise, surprise.

        • Andrew A

          Thankyou Geoffery for the answer.

          Quick question If you would not mind answering. What would you categorize people saved in other dispensations? Are they still considered the body of Christ but not the church or is it nether and in fact something else?

      • Jim Black

        In my opinion,

        1. Hour of trial is one of two things: 1) The temptation to take the mark of the beast, or 2) any trial that comes that tests the character and faith of those who dwell on the earth.

        2. It appears to be Rev. 16:1

        3. Those who “keep” Jesus’ word, don’t deny His name and keep His command to persevere under trial will be “kept” by God (Rev. 3:8b,10). The meaning of “keep” (tereo)is important. It means, “watch over carefully, take care of, guard.” If the church is in heaven, why would God have to take care of her and guard her? Jesus uses the same word (keep) in His prayer to the Father, asking Him not to take the saints out of the world, but to protect them from the evil one (John 17:15,20)

        • Andrew A

          Thank you for answering most of my questions.

          As for your answer to question 2 why is it you feel the wrath starts with the bowls rather then at the seals? My understanding of the bowls was they are part of the 7th trumpet judgment which was also part of the 7th seal meaning it all would be Gods wrath right?

          • Jim Black

            As for your answer to question 2 why is it you feel the wrath starts with the bowls rather then at the seals? My understanding of the bowls was they are part of the 7th trumpet judgment which was also part of the 7th seal meaning it all would be Gods wrath right?

            REPLY: I don’t think so. Wrath is seen first in Rev. 6:17 which is clearly towards the end of the tribulation. This is when the sky recedes as a scroll, mountains and islands are moved out of their places and people seek places of safety to hide themselves from the wrath of the Lamb. Notice that the world will see Jesus at this time (Rev. 6:16). The Greek for “face” is “prosopon” and means countenance. In my opinion, it is at this time that Jesus will have raptured the church and is coming to earth with the saints to destroy the nations that fought against Jerusalem (Zech. 12:9, 14:5, Rev. 19:11-16)

            IMO, the seals are also an overview of the tribulation period.

          • Andrew A

            What do you mean by also an overview with the seals could you explain what you mean by that more?

          • Andrew A

            Need to make clear my most recent question. When I say what you mean by overview? I wanted to make sure what you meant was that the seals is an overview of all of the tribulation period and not a reference to something more.

            Also just make sure I am not misunderstanding you. So are you saying the seven seals and what happens when they are broken or not judgments? Nor are the trumpets which or blown not judgments only the bowls?

  • Dennis

    I do not reject the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. However, I have tried many times to see it from scripture and even after your well done article, still have the same hang-up. Item 4 states “THE RAPTURE HAPPENS BEFORE THE ANTICHRIST AND THE TRIBULATION, WHILE THE SECOND COMING HAPPENS AFTER BOTH.”
    Following that is “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) – The Rapture.

    The verse clearly says that day shall not come (I assume “that day” is the rapture?)…and that man of sin be revealed (I assume this refers to the Antichrist). Please reconcile this. How can the rapture happen before the antichrist when the verse appears to say he must be revealed first. This is always where I have tripped up on this whole thing. I have yet to have anyone adequately explain this. Thank you.

    • Paul says that “two things” have to occur right before the Rapture takes places. First, there must be a great “falling away” from Biblical truth. We see that is ALL the mainstream denominations today. Rock music, blessings, laser light shows, fixing your finances, all these things have replaced Bible doctrine. Secondly, the Antichrist must be revealed. Paul does NOT say that we will be sticking around to see how bad things get. In fact, he says the opposite. he says that we are “not appointed unto wrath”. Hope that clears it up for you.

      • Tabitha Jacome

        Wait, I thought the antichrist is revealed in Rev 6:1-2 when the church is already in heaven(?). Isn’t he revealed by confirming a covenant with the many, thus starting the time clock for Daniel’s 70th week? Wouldn’t the church have to have already been taken out of the way at this point, God having turned His attention back to Israel?

        • And here you hit the nail on the head, Tabitha, but with the wrong verse. Rev 6.1-2 doesn’t say anything about the Antichrist, but if you look at what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2, the bit that Geoffrey is quoting, the revealing of the antichrist happens when he desecrates the Temple in the middle of Daniels 70th week by proclaiming himself as God to be worshipped in it. That completely rules out Geoffrey’s Pre-Trib position, and given that Paul goes on to warn about what happens after that, it pretty much rules out a mid-Trib position. That only leaves a Post-Trib position (the biblical one) or a Pre-wrath position, a few versions of which are virtually the same as the Post-Trib position……

  • Eric

    “This is why Paul commands Timothy to teach people how to “rightly divide” their Bibles to know which of the three groups God is speaking to at any given time.” – From the second paragraph of the article.

    WRONG – when Paul wrote 2 Thimothy 2:15 the believers only had the Hebrew Bible. They had no new testament.

  • T. Daniells

    Mr. Grider
    You are stating that people who don’t believe in a pre trib rapture don’t rightly divide the word of truth. I am 62 yrs. old, born and raised independent, fundamental, bible believing, KJV, never say die Baptist, believing exactly what you have been taught and are teaching.Then years ago I started studying my Bible, and have come away with a different point of view. And now, being the head of my household I teach my family being led by the Holy Spirit Jhn 16:13.

    • Gideon

      Amen
      Explain the the rapture to the thosands upon thousands who gave their heads for Christ this year in the middle east.
      Coming soon to USA.

      • Iceman4Christ

        The real question is… If Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church…

        Matthew 16:18 (KJV)

        18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

        Then why would Jesus let the Man of Sin prevail against the church during the tribulation? Is Jesus a liar?

        All that is happening in the middle east has been happening for the past 2 thousand years! You will not be able to compare that with what is coming. During the Tribulation it will be far worst.

        Have you ever been to the middle east in hostile Islamic territory? I have! You just have no idea.

        • The same Jesus who said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church also warned that the church would be crushed, as did the apostles. Just like Jesus was crucified before the resurrection, so too his bride will be crushed before her resurrection. The man of sin prevails physically, but the true church prevails by remaining faithful to Jesus even under intense persecution. That is why the early church called martyrdom a great victory, and it is why Revelation says things such as this :
          To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations – (2.26) and
          I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. (3.11-12) and
          To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. (3.21)
          Jesus was victorious because he endured death and died as a faithful witness (Revelation 1.5)
          Then there is this:
          And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. (15.2). They had been victorious by enduring suffering under the Antichrist and not losing faith, but being faithful even unto death as we are told in 12.11:
          They triumphed over him
          by the blood of the Lamb
          and by the word of their testimony;
          they did not love their lives so much
          as to shrink from death.

          Jesus lets the man of sin prevail against the church – and even in a Pre-Trib scenario, the Man of Sin prevails against the mythical ‘Tribulation Saints’ anyway, so what’s the difference?
          Why, to test, so that at the last hour the true church may come forth refined as pure gold….

  • jim Black

    Yes, Angel, the feasts are exciting and the last three speak of the end times, Knowing our Hebraic roots often clear up a lot of things about prophecy.

    Have you studied Rev. 14:14-16? IMO, they speak of the rapture.

    God bless

  • amigodana

    (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

    “”The righteous shall never be removed:” ???????????

    (Malachi 3:6) “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

    “For I am the LORD, I change not;” ????????????

    Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

    “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.”

    Proverbs 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
    Proverbs 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

    “the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.”

    (Numbers 23:19) “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

    • Iceman4Christ

      Really? So how do you explain Jesus the Christ? He was more righteous than any of us. Yet He was cut off. Went to heaven and said he is coming back for us. He said in John 14:3

      And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

      Then we all come back to earth to inherit and reign with him at the 2nd coming!

      The 2nd Coming – please read Revelation 19, Joel 2:16, Zechariah 14, Jude 1:14

      How about what Jesus said in Luke 21:36

      Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

      Or this one when Jesus informs believers in Revelation 2:22

      Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

      Is Jesus the Christ a liar?

      Don’t you see? That when we come back to rule and reign with Him. We, the righteous, will forever be on this earth never to be removed and the wicked will be cast out as the many scriptures you quote suggest?…

      • amigodana

        (Isaiah 40:18-21) Ҧ To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

        (Matthew 16:13) “¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?”

        “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” ???????

        (John 1:1-3) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} The same was in the beginning with God. {3} All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

        “the Word was God”

        (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

        “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.””

        (Isaiah 40:25) “To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.”

        (1 Corinthians 1:13) “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?”

        “”Is Christ divided?” ??????????????

        Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

        ??????

        • Iceman4Christ

          Ok. 0_0 … So help to understand your post here. What is it you want me to see? Is it about the Trinity or not? I have no clue. You just shoot scriptures at the hip without offering an explanation. Please explain so I can better reply with an answer.

          Thank you amigodana.

          • amigodana

            (1 Corinthians 2:1-14) “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. {2} For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. {3} And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. {4} And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: {5} That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. {6} Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: {7} But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: {8} Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. {9} But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. {10} But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. {11} For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. {12} Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. {13} Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. {14} But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

            1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

            (James 1:5) “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

        • Iceman4Christ

          Again, you just reply with more scriptures that say I need to have the spirit in order to understand. 🙁

          However I do understand very well. All I ask is you also explain what you are asking.

          Since the Spirit of the Lord dwells in me allow me to explain that the Spirit also says that 1 John 5:7 was added into the translation of the scriptures and is not actually in the original text. Why didn’t the Spirit tell you that amigodana?

          Yeshua and Jehovah are one in the same!

          We have His Spirit dwelling in us, His believers.

          its not 1+1+1=3?

          Its more like 1x1x1=1!

          When Jesus said go and baptize in the NAME (which is SINGULAR and means Authority) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

          There is One God, One Lord, One Savior, One King, One Alpha & Omega, One First & Last, One Creator, and only One coming in the Clouds. Yet this One God manifest to us in the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

          If you want scripture for all of this I will be happy to provide it. 😀

          • Heather

            Amen! Astounding response. Iceman4Christ can you tell me a litlle about Mazzaroth? I believe that is the way you worded it in your previous post to me. Is there a website you could direct me to?

          • amigodana

            (John 6:63-64) “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. {64} But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”

            “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit”

            (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

            (Isaiah 40:18-21) Ҧ To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

            ???????????

            Job 21:15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?

            ???????????

            (Romans 1:22-23) “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, {23} And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.”

      • Ron Murphy

        Iceman, Luke 21:36 is referring to Luke 21:26, these things are those things. Rapture and tribulation are over when those things come. It is the wrath of the Lamb, to them, Rev 6:17, because they seen him in the clouds coming to gather his elect.

  • DB
  • Marsha

    I continue to question the time of the rapture? the word says “at the LAST trump”. is’nt that when Christ returns?

    • Andrew A

      You should not combine the trumpets from Revelation with the Last trump Paul speaks about. They are referencing future events but not the same thing.

      First “the last trump” is a reference of a noise made by a trumpeter. Which is a very long single blast from a horn. It is referencing a noise that will signal the dead rising and the living both being changed in the twinkling in the eye and meeting the Lord in the air. In fact at the feast of trumpets it starts with “the last trump” signaling that the feast is starting.

      The 7 trumpets of revelation are Judgments No were does John write anything about at the 7th trumpet the dead are raised. In fact the 7th trumpet is called the third Woe.

    • Iceman4Christ

      Hi Marsha! 🙂 Please check out my post up top which explains this topic to another poster named Lori. It will explain to you with great detail concerning the Trump which is Gods voice.

      Check it out and I hope it helps.

    • Iceman4Christ

      Hey Marsha! 🙂

      I don’t know if you already read it or not but I am posting this here again for you. So you can understand that the Trumpets are God’s voice.

      1Co 14:33 -For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

      Lets remember that when Paul said at The Last trump he wasn’t speaking about the 7th Trumpet of Revelation. It wasn’t even written when he wrote to the Corinthians.

      So ask your self, where did Paul get this last trump and when was the 1st trump ever blown?

      If you remember back in Exodus 19 when God spoke His voice was the Trumpet! This was the first time God’s voice sounded like a Trumpet.

      In Numbers 10. God instructed Moses to make 2 silver trumpets. Which are a mirror or a shadow of things in heaven.

      Silver in the bible is always a picture of salvation and redemption. If you read you will see that when they are blown they are for gathering a people. Preparing them for a journey. Also they are blown when going to war so God can save them from their enemies.

      So the 1st trump was blown for the nation of Israel to take them on a journey to the promise land.

      The last trump is for the church to gather them and take them to heaven as you will see in these next verses.

      Key verse: Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (Rev.1), and the things which are (Rev.2-3), and the things which shall be hereafter(Rev.4-22);

      In Revelation 1, John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet which speaks to him. He turns around to see who’s this voice is and he sees Jesus the Christ!

      Then in Rev. chapters 2-3 Jesus has a message to the Believers or churches. Some great, some good and others bad.

      To the church or believers of Thyatira in Rev 2:22 Jesus says, …Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

      Jesus said the same thing in Luke 21:36 – Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

      Then in Revelation 4:1 Jesus the Christ calls us up with His voice. This is the Rapture taking place.

      Rev.4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

      Its as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 – For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

      1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

      This is also where Matthew 25:10 takes place.

      Then in Revelation ch. 5 you read about the church in Heaven.

      Revelation 6 through 18 is the Tribulation.

      Revelation 19 is the 2nd coming and we come back with him. (See Joel 2:16, Jude 1:14) The judgement of the nations, this is also where He separates the sheep from the goats.( See Matthew 25:32) The anti-Christ and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

      Revelation 20 Satan is bound in the bottomless pit, the 1000yr reign of Christ and The Great White Throne Judgement.

      Revelation 21 The New Heaven and Earth, The New Jerusalem and The Millennial Temple.

      Revelation 22 is the Glory of God. Jesus is the Alpha & Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

      Hope this helps and sheds light on a Hot Topic that many believers and non believers alike seem to twist, confuse, hate or ignore.

      Be blessed!

    • Ron Murphy

      Marsha, the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, is to alert the angels to gather his elect. Jesus does not come on down to earth, but as Paul wrote we shall be with him forever. This trump has to be the one Paul referred to, not the 7th trumpet. We must stand before God’s throne. Only martyrs and those that suffer great tribulation will take part in the first resurrection, all the early church suffer great tribulation, but not just the worst one, that is for us. No one can show any one in heaven that did not suffer great tribulation. They all did, period.

  • Iceman4Christ

    Hi Heather. 🙂

    Actually the Mazzaroth is found in Job 38.

    Job 38:32

    Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

    Basically its talking about the Zodiac or the constellations.

    Each constellation is a picture of Jesus the Christ. However through out the ages their names have been changed to pagan names.

    The zodiac shows Gods redemption for man and it also displays the Gospel in the heavens and each star in a constellation also has a meaning that points to Christ.

    There is so much to cover hear is a summary. Below are links you can check out.

    Instead of Leo, it is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

    Virgo, is actually the Virgin. Which can be Israel or Mary. Also this constellation also has seed in one hand. Now we know the seed is in reference to the Messiah. Also notice that the Virgin sign appears in Revelation 12.

    Rev 12:1-6 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    As you can see this sign in Rev.12 is the Nation of Israel/Mary. The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel. She is clothed with the sun and the moon is under her feet. Which means this happens early in the morning with the moon under the constellations feet. She gives birth to the Messiah.
    Then you see Draco or the Dragon which is Satan next to this sign in the heavens trying to devour her child.

    I believe this sign will really play out in the heavens at the same time the Jews will have to flee from the antichrist during the Tribulation.

    You also have Taurus, which is the Coming Judge.
    Aquarius the water bearer, think the water of the word or the holy spirit being poured out.
    Gemini which is the 1st and 2nd coming of Jesus. the suffering servant and the Conquering King.
    Scorpio who stings the heel of the man who holds the serpent
    Aries is the Crown lamb found worthy!
    Pisces is the redeemed in Christ
    Capricorn is the scapegoat or the atonement sacrifice of Jesus.
    Sagittarius is the God Man Jesus the Christ!
    Libra are the scales of the judgement which Jesus paid the price.

    Also in the Zodiac is the picture of the Cherubim which also points North, South, East and West! Which also forms the Cross.

    The Lion – King Jesus – The gospel of Matthew
    The Ox (bull) – The Servant – The gospel of Mark
    The Man – The Son of Man – The Gospel of Luke
    The Eagle – The Son of God – The Gospel of John

    Hope some of this helps and have fun checking all this out.

    God Bless.

    http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/lesson-13-the-gospel-in-the-stars-part-1/

    https://www.google.com/search?q=gospel+in+the+stars&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    http://heavensspeak.blogspot.com/

    http://www.mt.net/~watcher/newun.html

    https://www.google.com/search?q=the+cherubim+in+the+gospel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    • Heather

      Again, thank you for taking the time. I will research.

    • Bro. Nick Nicholas

      Iceman4Christ – I also thank you for the information about “Mazzaroth” – it is a subject that I also find of real interest – for it is written in “the word of the LORD”.

      “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.”
      (Prov 27:17, KJB)
      .

  • Iceman4Christ

    You are right AmigoDana, I am being another god, a replacement for the true word. I don’t always understand!

    (Psalms 82:5-7) “They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. {6} I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. {7} But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.”

    The Word of God is the true word and my words are a false god.

    (John 10:34-35) “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? {35} If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;”

    I was wrong to doubt Gods Power and authority over man.

    (Proverbs 16:9) “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”

    (Genesis 6:5) “¶ And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

    After all it is only Gods Word that can give us wisdom and understanding!

    1 Chronicles 22:12 Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

    • Iceman4Christ

      Why would you write that with my Name on it! Wow! How deceiving!

      How can you claim to have the Spirit of God and do that. Not cool at all.

      • amigodana

        That is what truth looks like, submitting to God’s truth.

  • Iceman4Christ

    So I guess you are trying to say that Jesus and Jehovah are not the same and Jehovah is not a flesh and bone man. Sigh… 🙁

    Then How do you explain Genesis 5.

    In Genesis 5 if you brake down the names to their meanings. You will see that Jesus is the God Man that redeemed us. Which you cannot deny that God is Jesus in this chapter.

    God -> Adam -> Seth -> Enos -> Cainan -> Mahalaleel -> Jared -> Enoch -> Methuselah -> Lamech -> Noah

    The God -> man -> is appointed -> a mortal -> of sorrow! -> The Blessed God -> shall come down -> Teaching -> His death shall bring -> those in despair -> comfort & rest!

    Also how do you explain these verses in the Old Testament that prove Jesus is Jehovah.

    Why in Zechariah 11:12-13 does Jehovah say He is the one who was measured for 30 pieces of silver?

    In Zechariah 12:10 why does Jehovah say He was the one who was pierced?

    • amigodana

      (2 John 1:7) “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

      (1 John 4:2-3) “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: {3} And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

      (John 6:63-64) “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. {64} But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”

      “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit”

      • Iceman4Christ

        9_9 <— This is me rolling my eyes at you.

        Can you at least have a decent conversation?

        By using your own words to express what you really want to say and stop writing post in my name.

        The blogger can see that it is you by your email.

        So I say again and for the final time!

        What a shame. You are childish and a wolf in sheep’s clothing trying to cause division.

        Good night to you and may the Lord rebuke you!

        • amigodana

          I didn’t use my email, I used yours. Don’t worry I won’t publish it here to prove it to you. I have nothing to prove to you.

          Now, how do you think God feels about you denying and changing His Word? You didn’t like it, I can only imagine how God dose not like it when people like you deny His Word, His power, and His authority.

          • Ron Murphy

            amigodana, a wrong does not make things right. Quite posting in others names, it is bearing false witness. A capital offence to God.

  • Iceman4Christ

    I am sorry Marsha, you should always listen to the word of God over my words and any mans words for that matter. Stop trusting in man and listen to God!!!

    (Jeremiah 17:5) “¶ Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.”

    • Iceman4Christ

      Why are you hating? Have the guts to say this with your own name “amigodana” on the post and stop using mine.

      You do know that the blogger can see your email address right? So you really are not getting away with it.

      What a shame. You are childish and a wolf in sheep’s clothing trying to cause division.

      Good night to you and may the Lord rebuke you! 😀

      • amigodana

        So you deny the truth of Gods Words?

      • amigodana

        You are a hypocrite!!! You change Gods words into your own understanding, denying the power and authority of God. Yet you think you can judge me.

        How do you think God feels about you replacing His word with your words?

        (Psalms 82:5-7) “They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. {6} I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. {7} But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.”

        • Iceman4Christ

          Please! Tell me what Words did I change or replace?

          Please explain it to me.

          1 Corinthians 5:12-13 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

          • amigodana

            I gave you Gods Word and you turned and chose to receive mans words. You chose a different god.

            I have a feeling you may be catholic, am I right?

            You are trying to explain Gods word with your understanding and wisdom, which is completely contradictory to what he scriptures teach.

            1 Chronicles 22:12 Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

          • amigodana

            By the Way, that verse is not the true Word! Let me show you the true Word.

            (1 Corinthians 5:12-13) “For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? {13} But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

          • Ron Murphy

            1 Corinthians 5:12-13. somebody missed the interpretation here. Paul expressed in the continuing of this that we should be defrauded instead of judging one another and called them to shame for such judging one another. Paul also included that, they chose to pick the least esteemed in the church to judge, instead of letting the wise make the right judgment. Both follies on their behalf. Paul said to be defrauded rather than judge. This is the Christian way. God will repay, to both parties. Let him settle the dispute. We as Christians are not to judge. If we are followers of Christ, then he told us not to judge.

        • Heather

          amigodana, you are causing strife and slinging names at my brethren friend. Your eyes are shut and there is no wisdom in your words. You keep saying you are speaking with words of the “spirit”. When really, your speaking like New Age babble talk!

  • amigodana

    (Jeremiah 17:5) “¶ Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.”

    1 Chronicles 22:12 Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

  • Iceman4Christ

    Lol! 🙂

    No I am not a catholic.

    I am a Born Again Believer in the Word of God. 😀

    So explain to me what did I change or replace? Tell me I pray, what did I contradict?

    Explain to me what you want me to know.

    How did I chose a different god?

    • amigodana

      This is the false god that you quoted, changing the glory of God from His truth.

      1 Corinthians 5:12-13 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

      Sorry, Wrong god, Wrong word, Wrong Bible. Therefore you are using a corrupted word, a false god.

      Here is the ONE, TRUE, Jesus, God, Word.

      (1 Corinthians 5:12-13) “For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? {13} But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

      God’s Word is Pure!!! Clear and Transparent! We don’t change ONE jot or tittle! But you don’t believe, do you?

      • Iceman4Christ

        9_9!!

        Wow, seriously! It says the same thing. I’ll like King James bibles to.

        (1 Corinthians 5:12-13) “For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? {13} But them that are without God judgeth.Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

        If you want to get technical then you are even using a bible that also has mistranslations in it.

        Why aren’t you using the actual 1611 King James?

        1 Corinthians Chapter 5:12-13 (1611 KJV Bible)

        12 For what haue I to doe to iudge them also that are without? doe not ye iudge them that are within?

        13 But them that are without, God iudgeth. Therefore put away from among your selues that wicked person.

        If you want to get even more technical your not even quoting from the actual Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek text!

        Here is 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 in Greek for you.

        5:12 τί γάρ μοι τοὺς ἔξω κρίνειν οὐχὶ τοὺς ἔσω ὑμεῖς κρίνετε
        5:13 τοὺς δὲ ἔξω ὁ θεὸς κρινεῖ καί ἐξαρεῖτε τὸν πονηρὸν ἐξ ὑμῶν αὐτῶν

        So I guess I am more holier than you know that that I actually quoted from the original scripts right?

        You need to grow up and stop being so childish! I have better things to do than to argue with you. You are just ignorant and have no idea of what you are talking about. All translations from the original text have some mistranslation or the translators were even bias with some word they translated.

        Ex: In the KJV 1 John 5:7 that was added and you still quote it!
        This was an uninspired addition to the Latin Vulgate

        I bet you celebrate Christmas and Easter too, right? These are pagan holidays that the Catholic Church instituted! You even carry around a bible that the Catholic church put together.

        What happened to inserting The book of Enoch or the Book of Jasher (Upright) in the bible? What about the Book of the wars of the Lord that was found in the dead sea scrolls? All these books are in the Dead Sea scrolls. Why did Jude quote from Enoch?

        Grow Up and learn! Stop putting God in a box. You are accusing me of exactly what you are doing.

        I won’t be replying to you anymore so don’t even bother me please!

        Peace. 🙂

        • Please just use the KJV when posting verses here on NTEB, thank you. It’s not too hard a little rule to follow now, is it? Thanks!

        • amigodana

          Yes, Seriously, it does say something different.

          Different bibles say different things!!! That is the Point of having different bibles!!!!

          And as I said, You don’t believe God! You believe the gods !!!!

          KJV = (John 1:1-3) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} The same was in the beginning with God. {3} All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

          1611 kjv = 1 John 1:1-3

          1 In the beginning was the Word, & the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
          2 The same was in the beginning with God.
          3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

          KJV = (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

          1611 KJV = 1 John 5:7 For there are three that beare record in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.

          Hey, Look the 1611 KJV says the SAME thing then as it does Now! WOWWWWWW!!!!!!

          Wow, did you just show your ignorance in textual criticisms.

          Did I strike a nerve with you or something! God’s true word can be like that, that is why people like you don’t like it. It figures that you would run, can’t handle the TRUTH!!!

          • Iceman4christ

            I had no idea that thousands of years ago that when God had his holy men pen down the scriptures they wrote them in English King James style! Amazing!

            This whole time I thought they wrote them in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek…

            Moses, the prophets, the writings, the gospels, the epistles and many other books that they wrote, they wrote them in English. Wow! (BOOM) <— my head just exploded!

            And here I thought that MEN just translated from the original sources of the Hebrew, Aramaic and the Greek text.

            Well you sure should me. 🙂

            Tell me can you show me that 1 John 5:7 says that in the actual Greek text?

            Here is a history lesson for you.

            Since the time of Erasmus, New Testament scholars have accumulated additional evidence that strongly suggests the passage is not original to the Letter of 1 John. The late Bruce Metzger, leading authority on NT manuscripts, briefly outlined the evidence:

            The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript dating before the 16th century [the era of controversy over Erasmus’ Greek edition].

            The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies of the 3rd and 4th centuries (Sabellian and Arian).

            The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic) — except the Latin. It is also not found in Jerome’s original Latin Vulgate (Codex Fuldensis, Codex Amiatinus) or in the Old Latin version in its early form (as used by Tertullian, Cyprian, and Augustine).

            The earliest instance of the passage is in a 4th century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to Priscillian (d. ca. 385) or his follower Bishop Instantius in Spanish. The passage was apparently written in the margin as an allegorical gloss. In the 6th century scribes began to include it within the text of 1 John 5, where it shows up in later copies of the Old Latin. It is not found in Jerome’s original Vulgate translation (ca. AD 400).

            From: B.M. Metzger, The Text of the New Testament (2nd ed., 1968).

            Others have noted:

            Martin Luther kept out verse 7 from his German Bible (1545). But in 1574 the printer Feyerabend added it to later editions of Luther’s translation.

            The English physicist and mathematician Isaac Newton (1643–1727) was an avid Bible student. In a letter to a friend (14 Nov. 1690), he wrote at length on 1 John 5:7, which he regarded as spurious [The Correspondence of Isaac Newton, ed. H. W. Turnbull (Cambridge, 1961), 3:83-109].

            Just remember you are more Catholic than I ever will be, “Am.I.God.Ana”

  • amigodana

    I am fixing to get off here, this may or may not be an interesting. I will continue this with you tomorrow!

  • David

    Shalom and Baruch Geoffrey, I believe much has been said by many for and against. I’m a TORAH Teacher and an Eschatologist. May I commend you on this well written Article on the Nechatef -Hebrew – Harpazzo- Greek- Rapemure- Latin and commonly referred to as the Rapture or Sudden catching away.

    I teach globally and do understand why many are confused due to lack of teaching on Ecclesiology and Eschatology. They have not been taught on the Despensation / Okonomia, thus the confusion.

    May I encourage you to keep pressing on to the crown that awaits you for your dedication to scripture -Acts 17; 11.

    The majority Church are full of Replacement Theologians or Reconstructionist.

    I endorse your work, well done.

    Baruch be shem Yeshuah ha Messiach.

    David.

    • amigodana

      (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

      “”The righteous shall never be removed:” ???????????

      (Malachi 3:6) “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

      “For I am the LORD, I change not;” ????????????

      Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

      “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.”

      Proverbs 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
      Proverbs 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

      “the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.”

      (Numbers 23:19) “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

      • Heather

        Amos 9:14-15

        And I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof, they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit.

        15 And I will plant them upon their land and they shall NO MORE BE PULLED UP OUT OF THEIR LAND that I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

        ( THEY WILL NOT BE REMOVED)

    • Shalom, and thank you!

  • amigodana

    Ladies and Gentlemen; Is the English language really that hard to understand?

    (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

    “””””” The righteous shall NEVER BE REMOVED “””””””

    The only place in the bible where it say’s anything of the rapture is in these verses;

    (Isaiah 14:13-15) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

    • You are playing word games. The Bible ALSO says “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me”, right? Now, do we take that to mean that I can jump 20 feet in the air, or that I can add 20 pounds of muscle by thinking about it, or become an NFL linebacker at the age of 70? NO, it does not mean that. Ok, when the Bible says that the “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.” Proverbs 10:30 KJV, does that mean that during the Church age there won’t be a removing of the Church in the Rapture? No, that would be just as silly as the examples I gave. In the Rapture, our “removal” to Heaven is somewhat a temporary one because we return in Revelation 19:14 and come back to the earth for 1,000 years with Jesus. But the removal of the wicked to Hell is PERMANENT. The Bible is 100% accurate when it says that the righteous will never be removed – AND – that the Church is taken to Heaven in the Rapture.

      • amigodana

        I believe that we take each scripture in the light of ALL other scriptures!

        So no I don’t think that I am playing word games. Scriptures cannot contradict other scriptures or it is our understanding that must be reevaluated.

        ALL scriptures must agree, God is not the author of confusion.
        Lean not upon our own understanding!

        • Ron Murphy

          Proverbs 10:30? “The righteous will inherit the earth”, is what it’s saying! This is our eternal home. But if you take all scripture you must take Rev 7:9-17 & Rev 15:2-4, also Rev 19:14, Rev 20:4, and Rev 17:14. We are going to see heaven, if we suffer tribulation. That’s God’s promise. Rev 14:13, Rev 19:9, Romans 8:17 & 2Tim 2:12.

          • amigodana

            Yes, this is our eternal home. The scriptures say;

            (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

            After all, where does it say that we will ascend into heaven?

            (Isaiah 14:13) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:”

          • Ron Murphy

            We are seen in heaven, if we did not ascend how did we get there, my friend. We are not removed, but we are there to visit as the redeemed of God. Rev 7:9-17, Rev 15:2-3, Rev 19:14. Shows us in heaven, standing before God’s throne.

          • amigodana

            Well Ron, I believe God. And He said;

            (Isaiah 14:13) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:”

            Are you saying that God is confusion?

            (1 Corinthians 14:33) “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

            Show me where it Directly says in His Words that we will ascend into heaven. All I see in those verses is you pushing a theory. There is NO direct statement saying that.

          • Ron Murphy

            amigodana, Isa 14:13 is talking about satan. Don’t confuse the word of God. You can’t blame God for that if you do. That’s your fault. So you want verse saying we ascend into heaven.

            1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

            Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

            Now, amigodana, where is the sea of Glass these saints are seen standing on?

            Answer: Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

          • amigodana

            Quote; “amigodana, Isa 14:13 is talking about satan. Don’t confuse the word of God. You can’t blame God for that if you do. That’s your fault. So you want verse saying we ascend into heaven.”

            It is talking about satan AND the doctrine that he uses to fool people with. Think about that!

            1Th 4:17 ? = Where are the clouds located according to Gods wisdom and Word? How does God define “in the air”? Using scripture to define scripture, show me according to God Word.
            I say you still don’t go anywhere!

            Rev 19:14 = Again, show me scripture defining scripture so that I can have faith in God and not man, what does “armies” represent?

            Rev 17:14 = That says nothing about being or going anywhere. ???????

            Quote; “Now, amigodana, where is the sea of Glass these saints are seen standing on?

            Rev 4:6 = I still don’t know! So again, show me scripture defining scripture so that I can rest my faith in the Lord!

            By the way, why don’t you go read my last post on what I believe at the bottom of this comments section. We can continue this there and after you understand what it is that I see in the scriptures.

      • Iceman4Christ

        Bravo Sir! [clapping]

        I totally concur with your assessment…

        Nice post and by the way cool blog! 🙂

        I have a question for you sir.

        Don’t you think it is possible that there are more than just 1 rapture?

        1 before the Tribulation, another in the middle of the Tribulation when the 2 witnesses are raptured, and when we come back with Jesus at the second coming, He (Jesus) has His angels gather all those who survive to separates them as a Shepperd separates the sheep from goats.

        Now the last group are the ones that didn’t make it in the first rapture because of unbelief, Christians who like the foolish virgins missed the first rapture along with those who during the Tribulation became Christians who will enter into the millennial reign of Christ.

        So the sheep enter into the millennial reign and the goats are thrown into the lake of fire.

        What is your take on this?

        • Thank you! And yes, there IS more than ONE Rapture. But there is only ONE Rapture of the Church. Meaning, after we get taken out, there is a Rapture of Tribulation saints, but they are not part of the Church, the Body of Christ. There are 3 Raptures actually, and will write on that one next 🙂

          • Iceman4Christ

            Thank you Sir!

            I’ve always thought so too just never heard anybody talk much about it and now you have confirmed this as well.

            Thank you and keep up the great work in our Lord. 😀

    • Amen Geoffery Grider !

      Rapture verses ! For the biblically blind !
      amigodana !

      1Thess 4:15-18 KJV

      15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
      that we which are alive and remain unto the coming
      of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
      with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and
      with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall
      rise first:
      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught
      up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
      in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

      ” caught up together with them in the clouds, ” this
      is the rapture of the church !

      1 Cor 15:51-53 KJV
      51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,
      but we shall all be changed,
      52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last
      trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall
      be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
      53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this
      mortal must put on immortality.

      This is when our mortal bodies, become immortal !
      ” in a twinkling of an eye ”

      John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions:
      if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a
      place for you.

      Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy
      chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself
      as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be
      overpast.

      Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of
      his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their
      iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall
      no more cover her slain.

      This is where we go! While God punishes the inhabitants
      of the…. EARTH !

      (Malachi 3:6) “For I am the LORD, I change not;
      therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

      Jacob is Israel ?

      Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy
      name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any
      more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he
      called his name Israel.

      The Jews ( Israel ) go through the tribulation to be
      refined in the furnace of affliction

      Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but
      not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of
      affliction.

      Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that
      none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble;
      but he shall be saved out of it.

      Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I
      will make with the house of Israel; After those days,
      saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts,
      and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and
      they shall be my people.

      The church and Israel have two separate paths ! The
      church is raptured in John 4:1, Israel go through the
      time of Jacobs trouble ! Jeremiah 30:7 !

      Is that enough English for you ?

      Icemans view on the rapture of the church is correct !

      NTEB TEACHING OF THE RAPTURE ARE BIBLICALLY
      SOUND ! You need to rightfully divide, 2 Tim 2:15. Pronto,
      as in yesterday !

      • Amen, Bro. Mike, could not have said that better myself. Thank you!

        • amigodana

          You dispensationalists always ignore the FULL context of that scripture where it goes on to explain WHAT we are to divide.

          (2 Timothy 2:15-16) “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. {16} But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”

          Notice that it says to divide the word of truth from profane and vain bablings, you know, things like MANS WORDS. God is the WORD!

          (1 Corinthians 1:13) “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?”

          It has nothing to do with ignoring parts of the Bible because you cant understand it. That is also why you don’t understand when the scriptures say;

          (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

          But hey, any excuse to ignore parts of the bible will be just great with you, right?

          NO WHERE in any of those verses does it describe you being taken anywhere!!! It does speak of Gods return, But, you are not God!!

          (Isaiah 14:13-15) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

          But you all will probably hate on me, won’t you ? Oh well, it is what it says, even if you don’t like it!!!

      • Iceman4Christ

        Great post! Nice references of scripture!

        So true it is the time of Jacob’s trouble and God did promised the Jewish people to bring them back to the Promised Land never to be removed.

        I am Iceman4Christ and I approve of Mikes post! 😀

    • Heather

      @amigodana

      2 Peter 2:6-9

      6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

      7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked.

      8. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

      9 THE LORD KNOWETH HOW TO DELIVER THE GODLY OUT OF TEMPTATIONS, AND TO RESERVE THE UNJUST UNTO THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT TO BE PUNISHED.

      Capitalization emphasis mine

      • amigodana

        He still didn’t say you were going anywhere!!!

        • 1Thess 4:17

          17 Then we which are alive and remain shall
          be caught up together with them in the cloud,
          to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we
          EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

          John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled:
          ye believe in God, believe also in me.

          John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many
          mansions: if it were not so, I would have told
          you. I go to prepare a PLACE FOR YOU.

          John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place
          for YOU, I will COME again, and RECEIVE
          you unto MYSELF; that where I AM, THERE
          YE MAY BE ALSO.

          So the church meets Jesus in the air, then we
          are taken to the mansions, where God has
          prepared a place for the CHURCH ! We are
          received unto himself ( Jesus ) then the church
          will be FOREVER with the Lord !

          So where is the Lord during the tribulation ?

          Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord,
          Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
          enemies thy footstool.

          That would be in heaven ! Wouldn’t it ??

          That’s where the church goes ! Heaven !

          • Iceman4Christ

            Right on brother Mike. 🙂

  • With all due respect, you may want to reopen the case- and consider an alternative scenario. I am now retired, but when I was affiliated with the Vineyard Church movement, I likewise held and taught the ‘Pre-Tribulation Rapture’ theory. Therefore I used every one of your numerous Scripture text verses with the apologetic that the vast majority of the western church holds to, UNTIL contradictions and the gnawing sense of something missing persisted- made stronger in prayer with fasting.

    On my blog I have carefully posted a 4-Part ‘Last Days’ series that brings clarity to the position that I now understand to be correct. Please do not dismiss this concern out of hand; we are called to be like the Bereans in Acts 17- searching the Scriptures prayerfully that the LORD may clear up any misconceptions and the traditions of men that make void the Word of GOD. IF after you take the time to study the 4 essays, you disagree with any part of it- please do respond with your informed opinion as to any error that you may discern. I would greatly appreciate your critique with all humility… My ONLY concern is to honor the LORD- and strengthen the children of the Kingdom in our most precious faith.

    Each essay is linked at the bottom to subsequent posts in the series, beginning with:
    https://zionsgate.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/the-day-of-christ-and-the-day-of-the-lord/

    Kingdom blessings to all who love the LORD- in spirit and in truth… ~Santos

    • The Pretribulation Rapture is not a “theory”, it is a Bible DOCTRINE taught by the Apostle Paul. And there are NO contradictions within the verses I listed and discussed. If you think there are, please point one out to me and let me take a shot at it. I have had 25 years to study the Rapture, bring it on, look forward to it 🙂

      • Ron Murphy

        Paul never ever taught pretrib. He taught the day of the Lord and our gathering to him. What gathering? Matthew 24:31

        Also Luke 21:27-28, clarifies that when they see him, then he gathers us, our redemption of life is manifest and then we are changed. When they see him, is the rapture! Nowhere is the rapture a secret event, just in his time of appearing is secret.

        • Matthew 24 is Jesus teaching about the Tribulation after the Rapture…please read this to better understand http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=32798

          • amigodana

            Paul never mentioned about Pre-trib!
            Mathew 24 is Jesus teaching about the Tribulation after the Rapture!

            Whom to believe? 🙁

          • Ron Murphy

            there is no pretrib rapture. That’s why Paul never mentioned it?
            Actually, he did. 2Thess 2:3 that day shall not come( rapture) until there come first a falling away, and the antichrist be revealed first. The falling away , is due to tribulation, brought on by the one being revealed, the antichrist. So , Paul is telling us we can not be raptured until tribulation is over. Tribulation being the falling away. This is the falling away, 2Thess 2:9-12.

            2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
            2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
            2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
            2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

            Paul knew these thing must pass before we are gathered to the Lord, which is the rapture, we are not gathered at his return to earth, but we follow him on white horses, from heaven, Rev 19:14 and Rev 9:16.

  • JW

    Three simple verses, all linked together, no need for shuffling things around:

    Matthew 24:29 “Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days:

    The sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not shed its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the celestial powers will be shaken.

    30 “THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Here’s my reasoning, tribulation is for the ones God loves, because whom he loves he chastises. Yes God is going to snatch away his children from the earth before it sees great trouble, but that trouble will be judgement, not tribulation. If you don’t think we are in the great tribulation then go tell that to ISIS and maybe they’ll decide to put off their mass murders until after the rapture because they definitely got their timing wrong..

    Look in your heart, is what you believe making you proud and conceited? Do you think you can “prove” things to people? Have you forgotten that God only wants people with faith?

    • Read Revelation, ISIS at it’s worst is nothing compared to what’s coming in the Tribulation.

      • Ron Murphy

        No, Geoffrey, that is God’s wrath, not tribulation. Tribulation is what ISIS is doing now. That’s what we go through, with war with the saints, Rev 13:7 and then after the power of the holy people have been scattered, then shall God’s wrath come. They never cried wrath until after they persecuted the saints. That is true in both places in Revelation, Rev 6:17 & Rev 14:19. Persecution is over, when wrath comes. Luke 21 says, looking for thing coming on the earth. These thing are after the signs of the sun , moon and stars, which signify the immediate end of tribulation Matt. 24:29. You people are so blind you can’t see simplicity. Neither do you want to see it.

        • Bro. Nick Nicholas

          Ron Murphy – Have you ever done a Biblical word study of the use and number of occurrences of just the following words?

          “great tribulation” ~ KJV ~ NT ONLY = 3
          Matthew 24:21
          Revelation 2:22 | 7:14

          ==================================

          “the tribulation” ~ KJV ~ NT ONLY = 1
          Matthew 24:29

          ==================================

          “tribulation” = 18
          * does not include “great tribulation” or “the tribulation”

          ~ The Holy Bible, KJV – OLD Testament = 3
          Deuteronomy 4:30
          Judges 10:14
          1 Samuel 26:24

          —————–

          ~ The Holy Bible, KJV – NEW Testament = 15
          Matthew 13:21 = 1
          Mark 13:24 = 1
          John 16:33 =1
          Acts 14:22 =1
          Romans 2:9 | 5:3 | 8:35 | 12:12 = 4
          2 Corinthians 1:4 | 7:4 = 2
          1 Thessalonians 3:4 = 1
          2 Thessalonians 1:6 = 1
          Revelation 1:9 | 2:9, 10 = 3

          ==================================
          ==================================

          “great wrath” = 6

          ~ The Holy Bible, KJV – OLD Testament = 5
          2 Kings 23:26 =1
          Proverbs 19:19 =1
          Jeremiah 21:5 | 32:37 = 2
          Zecheriah 7:12 = 1

          —————–

          ~ The Holy Bible, KJV – NEW Testament = 1
          Revelation 12:12

          ==================================

          “wrath” = 192
          * does not include “great wrath”

          ~ The Holy Bible, KJV – OLD Testament = 146
          Zecheriah = 1

          —————–

          ~ The Holy Bible, KJV – NEW Testament = 46

          ==================================
          ==================================

          Truly – just exactly as it is written in “the word of the LORD”:
          “Son of man,
          thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house,
          which have eyes to see, and see not;
          they have ears to hear, and hear not:
          for they are a rebellious house.”
          (Ezekiel 12:2, KJB)
          .

      • Bro. Nick Nicholas

        Geoffrey Grider – It is interesting browsing thru the many-many comments in response to your clear and concise article about the Biblical verses – in context – that show the ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’
        – and it seems that fewer and ever-fewer folks want the Biblical knowledge that we are to:
        “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” ~ only because of the Continuous Wondrous Mercy and Grace of “the very God of peace” ‘the true church’ has been promised that we will not go through the soon-coming time of “the great and dreadful day of the LORD”, “the tribulation”, “great tribulation”, “the wrath of the Lamb”, “the time of Jacob’s trouble” ….

        – and there are more and more folks that are making categorical statements about what will occur and when during the Biblically Prophesied coming of “the day of the LORD of hosts” that they seem to want to go through
        – and more and more often using very condescending and/or unpleasant language against/about those of us that dare to disagree with them
        – all the while paying LITTLE – IF ANY – ATTENTION to that which is written in “the word of the LORD”:
        Ҧ Be not wise in thine own eyes:
        fear the LORD, and depart from evil.”
        (Prov 3:7, KJB)

        “Be of the same mind one toward another.
        Mind not high things,
        but condescend to men of low estate.
        Be not wise in your own conceits.”
        (Romans 12:16, KJB)

        “Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge.
        Knowledge puffeth up,
        but charity edifieth.
        And if any man think that he knoweth any thing,
        he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”
        (1 Cor 8:1-2, KJB)

        – – – – – – –

        I am personally finding what A.W. Tozer wrote over 50 years ago is becoming ever more true in my personal life. I live in ‘Amerika’ – which is more and more rapidly becoming openly hostile to “the Lord God Almighty” – and to ‘Biblical CHRISTianity’ – and to modern “Israel” – and to “the Jews”.
        My closest ‘Brother in Christ Jesus’ is an itinerant, non-denominational, Biblically sound Pastor in Kenya, and he tells me that the same is true there, and a street evangelist in New Zealand says that it is the same there also.

        – – – – – – –

        The Loneliness of the ‘Biblical CHRISTian’ (A re-titled and edited Excerpt)

        The loneliness of the ‘Biblical CHRISTian’ results from his walk with “the LORD God” in an increasingly anti-GOD world, a walk that must
        often take him away from the fellowship of the majority who say that they are ‘Christians’ – as well as from those of the unregenerate world.
        His GOD-given instincts cry out for companionship with others of his kind, others who can understand his longings, his aspirations, his
        absorption in the love of “the Lord Jesus Christ”; and because within his circle of friends there are so very “few in number” who share his
        inner experiences, understandings, and spiritual desires – he is forced to walk alone.

        The unsatisfied longings of the Old Testament Prophets for human understanding caused them to cry out in their complaint – and even “our
        Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” Himself suffered in the same way.

        The man or woman who has truly passed on into the Divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him.
        He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme object of his interest, so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of
        noisy religious shoptalk – for this he earns the reputation of being dull and over-serious – so he is avoided and the gulf between him and
        society widens.

        He searches for friends upon whose garments he can detect the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia out of ‘the Ivory Palaces’, and finding
        few – if any – he, like Mary- the mother of our Lord, keeps these things in his heart.

        It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon “the Lord God Almighty”. His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in
        “the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy” that which he can find nowhere else.

        ————————————————————
        Modified text from –
        “Man – The Dwelling Place of God,” Chapter 39: “The Saint Must Walk Alone” – by A. W. Tozer
        – Original @ http://www.crossroad.to/Bible_studies/sermons/devotions/loneliness.htm
        .

    • MRH

      After tribulation is when wrath begins. We are still in sorrows, and ISIS is a part of things. Also sorrows is globalized, whereas tribulation will be localized. Will ISIS play a part in tribulation? Quite possibly, as Allah equals Satan, and Islam means submission. Or simply put the antichrist religion, headed by the AC himself. And it doesn’t take a genius to figure our whom he is. Ask yourself, whom is destroying America and the church, and hates Israel with bitter passion? 😉

      • When the Tribulation begins I will be in Heaven with the rest of the Church as Paul says it will be. If you want to stay and face the Beast, have fun!

        • MRH

          You combine tribulation with wrath which is wrong. In Matthew 24:29 is when the wrath or day of the Lord begins. Likewise in Luke 21:25. The tribulation is not the end of the world, but simply persecution of saints in Israel. Tribulation marks the end of the gospel witness. And tribulation isn’t unto the world, as the world is under the spell of the devil even now.

          Also Daniel 11 reveals whom is not the covenant prince. :: Dan 11:21-23 KJV – And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

          So as clearly seen above, the AC is not the covenant prince. So whom could he be then? My guess is the FP, and that would fit the ‘prince to come’ prophecy. Note that the AC is not called a prince, but rather a vile person? And if my hunch proves correct, both strange players occupy the world stage now 😯

          Anyway, when the covenant with many is confirmed, we will know more. And that event may not be far ahead. Pope Francis will be visiting the USA on 9/26/2015, but full agenda not disclosed. But for certain his eternal goal is world peace, including with Israel and it’s Islamic enemies. But time will tell the tale as it always does 😉

          • Ron Murphy

            Mark Hodge, it seems as if you have studied a bit? You are getting closer to the truth all the time. Keep it up. I’m proud of you.
            Now I would like for you to understand a simple thing or two, if you so chose to. At least study these things and draw your own conclusion. Or better yet let God guide you to his truth.

            Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

            Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

            Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

            Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

            Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her.

            Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
            Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

  • MRH

    Folks: None of the popular rapture/tribulation theories are correct 🙄

    Scripture clearly states that the second coming event has two distinct phases. The first phase occurs at his return for the church or saints, which occurs at the end of the brief but intense tribulation in the holy land (a holy war). Which begins the first resurrection event. The second phase occurs at the end of the wrath period, which is also the harvest or the end of the world. Also the time of the beast and his mark. And of which ends the first resurrection event. And all whom are in the first resurrection are granted eternal life 😀

    As for the Antichrist and False Prophet, people have things twisted too 🙄

    Scripture clearly states that AC does not confirm the covenant, the FP does. But the AC does break the covenant midway into prophecy. Which results in the tribulation, climaxing with the resurrection event. Afterwards the FP is revealed as the ‘man of sin’, beginning the wrath or day of the Lord. Therefore if one is saved today, they need not fear about tomorrow. As for the coming tribulation, scripture doesn’t tell us to worry or prepare, other than to get saved. Which we should do regardless, as all die (except rapture folk) followed by judgment 😯

    Anyway, the clues to all above mysteries are hidden in the bible in various places, if only one knows where to find them 🙂

  • Pingback: Our Top 5 Reasons Why Matthew 24 Cannot Be Talking About The Rapture Of The Church | Walker Ministries | Virginia Beach, VA()

  • MRH

    One thing pre-trib folk always miss, is what Paul declares regarding rapture 😉

    1Th 4:17 KJV – Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    I ask, remain after what? Could this be referencing those untold believers whom survive the tribulation? After all, all dead believers died before or during tribulation. Also tribulation can’t be the end of the world, as in the latter aspect there are no survivors 😉

    Rev 19:21 KJV – And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    • Ummmm, no. Those who are “alive and remain” are simply those who are still living at the time of the Rapture. The end of the world does not come until AFTER the end of the 1,000 Year Reign..

      • MRH

        Nope, the end of the world is the harvest, which precedes the millennium 😉

        Mat 13:39 KJV – The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

        Rev 14:15 KJV – And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

        Mathew 24 begins with 70 AD destruction, followed by sorrows (last days), the tribulation (future). Ending with ‘flash’ rapture, and concludes with the wrath, and harvest after dramatic global appearance. The elect represent all saints, but the church is first in line, with the martyrs last in line 😉

        Mat 24:31 KJV – And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

        What follows the millennium is the second resurrection (unbelievers), the destruction of them, then their final judgment call. Which determines if they go into eternal damnation, or not. God is far more patient than we, not willing that any should perish.

        P.S. Seems you don’t know scripture quite as well as you claim to Geoff 😉

      • i see a lot of bickering back and forth about rapture no rapture, it is good to discuss scripture but don’t give lucifer a way in or he will cause Christians to fight back and forth about something that has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or living your life trying to bring light to those in darkness, that is our job, you could say; that’s what god is paying us for, as a earthly term.

    • Ron Murphy

      Mark, the remnant, in Rev 19:21 please understand, is not the whole world, it is for those that came to do battle at Armageddon.

  • MRH

    One other hidden clue regarding the timing of the rapture 🙂

    1Co 15:22-24 KJV – For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    As shown above, the rapture happens at Christs return, and then followed by the end of the world.. day of the Lord. Therefore the tribulation also precedes the same, which means that tribulation must precede rapture 😉

    Sorry pre-trib folk, but looks like everyone alive at the time will have to endure the tribulation. Also Paul never says that anyone will escape tribulation or persecution of any kind, only the wrath to come, which is also the hour of temptation.

    The problem with the Olivet accounts, is that they were written concerning pre-Pentecost situation, and therefore reflect the old covenant. In fact Jesus was made under law, and so all of his Gospel parables and prophecies reflect law. Only after his resurrection, just before his ascension, does the flavor of his message briefly reflect the new spiritual covenant and church to be born 😉

    Act 1:6-8 KJV – When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    Hence the birth of the church age, which we are still in until the rapture 🙂

  • amigodana

    If we are to be caught up into the clouds? Then explain to me the typology or hermeneutics of what the clouds represent. How does God define the clouds or even WHERE they are?

    • MRH

      Clouds by context means with the angels (clouds of heaven). The Greek root word is below 😉

      Lexicon :: Strong’s G3509 – nephos (cloud)

      Outline of Biblical Usage

      1) a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng
      2) used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapour obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapour with some form or shape
      3) a cloud in the sky

      Unfortunately Strong’s fails to properly translate the meaning of clouds in 1 Thess 4, the Olivet accounts, and Revelation 1 & 11.

      Lexicon :: Strong’s G3507 – nephelē (cloud)

      Outline of Biblical Usage
      1) a cloud
      — used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness

      Mar 13:26 KJV – And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

      1Th 4:17 KJV – Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

      Rev 1:7 KJV – Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

      P.S. The Lord isn’t returning alone. But he comes subtly first for the church (saints), then afterward dramatically unto the world (tribes of earth). The only evidence of the rapture will be the result of it, which will be global chaos.

      • amigodana

        So God didn’t mean that it was just a covering?

        Psalms 105:39 He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night.

        Lamentations 2:1 How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!

        You will notice that after he covered them with a cloud that he cast them down. ????

        Ezekiel 30:18 At Tehaphnehes also the day shall be darkened, when I shall break there the yokes of Egypt: and the pomp of her strength shall cease in her: as for her, a cloud shall cover her, and her daughters shall go into captivity.

        You will notice that according to God that a cloud is not a place to go too! But is in fact a covering.

        • MRH

          Context is the key to understanding scripture, and such requires deep study and proper interpretation 😉

          Concerning the term ‘cloud’, it has varied meaning, depending on context. Consider the below obvious references to the clouds in second coming event. Clouds clearly mean the untold angels? 🙂

          Mar 8:38 KJV – Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

          2Th 1:7-10 KJV – And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

          Heb 12:22-23 KJV – But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

          Jde 1:14-15 KJV – And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

          Question: Can you count the heavenly lights in the night sky? And I don’t mean only the few visible ones unto the naked eye. I mean every heavenly light, which includes those untold visible through great telescopes. Well that’s how many angels are in heaven. And all those untold angels are coming back with Christ, to deliver the saints off the earth, and to destroy the evil empire.

          P.S. Are you naive folk still just waking up to holy reality? I’m thinking so, as most of my wise prophecy and conspiracy offerings are either ignored or challenged 😥

          • amigodana

            Your so called wise prophesy (?????) can be completely ignored since you show no connection between angels and clouds. Sorry!!!!

          • MRH

            Are you blind? I gave you several clear scriptures showing what clouds imply regarding the second coming event. The term cloud implies numerous angels, not a covering. For your blind sake, below are the above bold highlights 😉

            when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

            when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

            and to an innumerable company of angels

            the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

            P.S. Angels are also saints 🙂

      • Iceman4Christ

        I believe the Clouds are a living chariot of God.

        These are no mere nimbus clouds or the fluffy vapors of water in the sky. And they are not a numerous company of angels in the sky that when seen from a distance resemble a cloud.

        Rather my friend these clouds a Celestial Vehicle that the Almighty uses to travel.

        That’s right! It is God who sits in these Celestial Vehicles and the Cherubim are mainly God’s chauffeur’s and His Body guards.

        This is what Ezekiel saw in Ezekiel ch.1 and ch.10.

        Don’t believe? Check out these scriptures.

        Eze 10:20
        This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims.

        Isa 19:1
        ¶ The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

        Jer 4:13

        Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

        Psa 104:3

        Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

        1Ch 28:18

        And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

        2Sa 22:10-12

        He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

        Psa 18:9

        He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

        Here are some scriptures of God at the 2nd coming. He comes back in a cloud!

        Dan 7:13

        I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

        Mat 26:64

        Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

        Mar 13:26

        And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

        Mar 14:62

        And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

        Luke 21:27

        And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

        I think it is fascinating that God uses this form of travel.

        Here are more refrences to these “clouds”.

        Ex. 16:10, Ex. 19:9, Ex. 34:5, Num. 9:15, Num. 11:25, Num. 14:14, 2 Chron. 5:13, Dan. 7:13, Mat. 24:30, 1 Thess. 4:17, Acts 1:9

        I also believe that Satan who was a cherubim has this form of travel as well.

        Thats why they call him the prince of the power of the air.

        Eph 2:2

        Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

        He thinks he is better, but he is not.

        Isa 14:14

        I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

        In this next verse I wonder if Satan will try to counterfeit prophecy!

        2Thess 2:9-11

        Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

        I wonder if the lie will be part of what New Agers and the Main Stream media like the history channel, discovery and the science channel and others push. U.F.O’s and aliens! They have no problem believing that an alien race came and seeded the planet or helped man kind evolve. Which is a lie of course.

        They will believe that but they wont believe in God as the creator? 🙁

        They will get there aliens alright but it is going to be fallen angels deceiving the planet. Remember that in Rev. 12:7-9 Satan and his angels are kick out of the heavens and onto the earth.

        Here is the scenario.

        The coming of antichrist

        1. Antichrist arrives at the end of a great war -Gog & Magog
        2. The war will end with Israels enemies destroyed.
        3. Antichrist comes with his fallen ones using these clouds.
        4. Antichrist sets up a false 7yr peace plan as dictator.
        5. Antichrist allows the 3rd temple to be built.

        When considering the identity of the antichrist, keep in mind he will SEEM like the Messiah of Israel.

        Here is the real 2nd coming of Jesus the Christ

        1. Jesus comes at the end of a great war, Armageddon.
        2. All the enemies of Israel will be destroyed.
        3. Jesus comes with His Holy angels and the Saints.
        4. Jesus sets up the 1000 yr reign of peace as The King.
        5. Jesus builds the Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40.

        • amigodana

          So let me get this straight. You expect me to completely ignore this following verse because it does not fit your doctrine.

          (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

          And so, you are suggesting that either God lied or changed His mind on that one, right?

          And yet again, on this next verse you are still suggesting that God changes what He means, that His words are not really that pure, right?

          Lamentations 3:44 Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.

          Ezekiel 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

          Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

          Even though these verses are saying that the cloud will be in the land, you still won’t to twist this into going to heaven for what ever amount of time !?!

          And still you want me to ignore the fact that you are teaching that I will “Ascend into heaven” just like Satan promises. Which is completely contradictory to everything else stated here, right? Your doctrine agrees with Satan’s doctrine;

          (Isaiah 14:13-14) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

          This rapture THEORY is just way for people to have their ears tickled, so they don’t have to take responsibility for their sins.

          You are not going anywhere!!!

          • Suzanne

            The Old Testament tells the Jewish people their future, the New Testament tells the Church, the Bride of Christ, her future!
            It is a glorious one!
            It is arrogant to tell the Lord He cannot come back and get His Bride!
            You will miss us when we are gone.

          • Iceman4Christ

            It’s more than just a cloud! It’s Gods chariot and he rides on the backs of Cherubim. Just as I stated in the top post. It’s scriptural go and read it instead of ignoring it.

            To people back then all they could think of was clouds because only clouds were seen in the sky. They did not know how else to describe them. So they called them clouds and yet they knew that it was like a chariot in the sky and the cherubim were controlling it. They also knew God rode it!

            We will come back with Jesus riding these same clouds “CHARIOTS”!

        • MRH

          “We will come back with Jesus riding these same clouds “CHARIOTS”!”

          True, that clouds can imply craft, but I still don’t think fully the case in second coming. Though I’m guessing that angels ride crafts, and as evidenced in biblical sightings. So it could well be that ‘clouds’ refers to hoards of holy UFO’s, piloted by angels? After all, Jesus was abducted by a holy UFO 😉

          Act 1:9 KJV – And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

          Also Satan has UFO’s, hence ‘prince of the power of the air’ 😉

          Eph 2:2 KJV – Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

          So all makes sense with below, just no cloud or UFO mention 🙂

          when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

          when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

          and to an innumerable company of angels

          the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

          P.S. Angels are also saints 🙂

          • amigodana

            Where exactly are these chariots supposed to be taking you to then?

          • MRH

            Scripture doesn’t say, but heaven has advanced technology 🙂

            2Th 1:7-9 KJV – And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

            P.S. I suspect an angelic battle factor against the wicked 😉

        • Iceman; as far as the clouds go, i think you are underestimating God and Christ they are not beings that need anything to move them from place to place. yes the bible uses many symbols that mean completely something else. for example the wheel within the wheel, God and Jesus nor his angels have no need for some kind of craft to move them anywhere, and by using this kind of logic based thinking is indeed limiting the Lord. angels do not come down in interstellar spacecraft,a lot of this kind of thinking comes from being bombarded by television shows about the end times and ancient aliens, it is obvious who is producing these kinds of documentaries, Lucifer, Lucifer is trying by these means to make people thing God and Christ are simple highly advanced being from another world. i am not saying you are using the same here please understand this. but God nor Jesus nor Holy Angels have any need for transportation of any kind, and for anyone to try to make others believe likewise are making a grave mistake.

          • Iceman4Christ

            Then tell me Sir. How do you explain these verses?

            Isa 19:1
            ¶ The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

            Jer 4:13

            Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

            Psa 104:3

            Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

            1Ch 28:18

            And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

            2Sa 22:10-12

            He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

            Psa 18:9

            He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

            Gods ways are higher than our ways!

            Just because man can create aircraft it doesn’t mean God has something much more superior to our understanding.

            Who are we to tell God what He can ride on?

            So when you see Him are you gonna tell Him to stop riding around on the Cherubim and stop using that Chariot?

            Its so obvious just by reading all these scripture that he is riding something.

            Psalm 68:17

            17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

            Psalm 68:33

            33 To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of old; lo, he doth send out his voice, and that a mighty voice.

            Deuteronomy 33:26

            26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky.

            Habakkuk 3:8

            8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation?

            So please Mr. Waltz can you at least study the topic before you make an ignorant statement.

          • Iceman4Christ

            Here is another which clearly shows The Lords power during His 2nd Coming.

            Isaiah 66:15

            15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

            So please let us who are His followers not be ignorant of the things of God. It might sound rude and I am not trying to be. Its just sad that so many christians do not read there bible.

            Peace. 🙂

        • Iceman; i am not going to argue back and forth about God or Christ or Holy Angles needing interstellar craft of any sort to move from place to place. to make the point i will simply use a line from star trek that is appropriate. captain kirk asked a simple question; “excuse me; why does God need a star ship ” ? even though that was only a line from a movie it is very relevant.

          • Iceman4Christ

            @ john waltz

            So you are going to rely on the *words of Captain James Tiberius Kirk* a T.V actor?

            When did he become a prophet of God and I had no idea that Star Trek was written into our bible?

            How foolish of me to not even notice!

            You will rely on the words of Captain Kirk instead of *The Word of God*?

            Well then. Let me just rip out or omit all these passages of scripture that says other wise, cause Prophet Kirk says differently!

            *Are you serious?*

            You sir are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe, watch and hear whatever comes out of that *Idiot Box* called T.V!

            Ignorance truly is bliss in your case.

            Again, The Clouds are chariots of God and He rides on the backs of Cherubim.

            מֶרְכָּבָה *<–* this word in Hebrew is *Merkava*. Which means *Chariots*

            *Even Jews believe it was God's chariot or a throne God rode around in.*

            Today the Israeli Defense Force even have a Tank they call Merkava! Guess what? They ride around in it because it was made to ride in.

            Read your bible please and grow please.

            🙂

  • amigodana

    Suzanne, I am discussing scripture here. If you would like to add or show what God says; I would love to hear the Words of my God! But what you want it to say and what it does say seems to be quite contradictory.

    (Proverbs 3:5-7) “¶ Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. {6} In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. {7} ¶ Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.”

    • Suzanne

      You are deceived and a mocker.
      Jesus, my God said in Matthew 7:6
      “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces
      You will no doubt respond to this with much displeasure, just like the Pharrisees and Sadducees , when Jesus spoke to them.

      • Iceman4Christ

        Sad, but so true! 🙁

        By the way Suzanne you have it right!

        God Bless you! 😀

      • amigodana

        Why would I be displeased? These are not my words, they are God’s words! I am just sharing them. Look, you don’t seem to understand that my flesh loves the idea of this rapture theory, so I dont have to take anything serious.

        However, when you look at ALL scripture in the light of ALL scripture, you will find that it is not truth.

        But if you all want to be condescending towards me, well that’s fine. I can handle it. I believe EVERY word my Father has told me. And since its God that will judge our hearts, I will leave you to yours. Its quite interesting how when you run out of scriptural options to discuss, you will resort to name calling or condemning.

        By the way iceman4Christ, I don’t blame you for being angry. But keep one thing in mind, you don’t like people changing your words, then you better consider that God does not like it when you change his. You should really think about that!!!

        Anyways, I am done!!!

        • Heather

          Yep, not holding on to the Lord’s promises He made to his Church kind of puts a damper on the imminence of reaching the lost before it’s too late. I’d say that’s exactly what Satan wants. You have been given many scriptures over the rapture of the Body of Christ but you ignore God’s Word yourself and keep asking for more. You are trolling this site and attempting to cause division. So perhaps you could find some pleasant things to discuss or if not, please move along to another site.

          • Iceman4Christ

            You said it sister.

            Speak the Truth.

  • Geoffrey;
    You have struck a bonanza on this topic with 177 comments so far and gaining! The topic of the rapture, tribulation and second coming is definitely on the minds of many today.
    Thank You for giving us the opportunity to share.

  • amigodana

    So, MRH, then you agree that the scriptures don’t say ANYTHING about going anywhere. Now, you are kind of confusing because out of the other side of your mouth you are saying that we are riding around in chariots (crafts).

    You still don’t see how you are saying exactly what Lucifer say’s do you? Or do you think that the bible is not really about God, but it is about aliens coming here and creating another race?

    (Isaiah 14:13-15) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

    Are you glad you jumped in bed with him yet iceman4christ?

    • Iceman4Christ

      In an earlier post you asked where these Chariots are taking us? Your answer is here in John. 🙂

      John 14:1-4(KJV)

      14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

      2 In my Father’s house are many mansions (ROOMS): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

      3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

      4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

      Did you not read my post up top? I gave plenty of scripture to show you in PLAIN KJV ENGLISH.

      It is God who sits in these Celestial Vehicles and the Cherubim are mainly God’s chauffeur’s and His Body guards.

      Please go back and read it. Don’t blame MRH for what I posted he is simply agreeing with me on this chariot topic.

      As for alien and ufo’s. It is Satan that will come with all lying signs and wonders and decieve the world into believing in aliens from a far off planet or galaxy!

      I believe that when people see ufos they are either seeing the Messengers of God or Satan’s fallen messengers riding around in these chariots.

      That’s why I said this in my other post about these clouds up top.
      Maybe you didnt read it or even care to because you are afraid to actually learn something. So I will post it again for you.

      Here is the scenario.

      The coming of antichrist

      1. Antichrist arrives at the end of a great war -Gog & Magog
      2. The war will end with Israels enemies destroyed.
      3. Antichrist comes with his fallen ones using these clouds.
      4. Antichrist sets up a false 7yr peace plan as dictator.
      5. Antichrist allows the 3rd temple to be built.

      When considering the identity of the antichrist, keep in mind he will SEEM like the Messiah of Israel.

      Here is the real 2nd coming of Jesus the Christ

      1. Jesus comes at the end of a great war, Armageddon.
      2. All the enemies of Israel will be destroyed.
      3. Jesus comes in the clouds with His Holy angels and the Saints.
      4. Jesus sets up the 1000 yr reign of peace as The King.
      5. Jesus builds the Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40.

      By the way I am not angry. 😀 <— see I have a big smile Am.I.God.Ana!

      Much love to you and I do forgive you for your rudeness even if you don’t ask. Its ok, really it is.

      Peace

      • Iceman4Christ

        I am sorry amigodana, I am still trying to change Gods words.

        John 14:1-4(KJV)

        2 In my Father’s house are many mansions (ROOMS): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

        Gods word is pure and I should just leave it alone. I am not real sure where those MANSIONS are, they could be simply just another dimension here on earth.

        And I keep casting doubt on the power and authority of Gods Word by questioning it.

        “How do you know that when 1 Corinthians 15:23 was written it was written a tad different than what they translated?”

        I am a sinner and I just don’t believe God sometimes.

        • amigodana

          Its Ok.

          • Iceman4Christ

            Lol! 😀

            I always think it funny that you need to use my name to make yourself sound or look good, Am.I.god.Ana!

            How about you give me your email address so I can post in your name.

            We should exchange emails and become the best of good christian friends. I’ll show you to shed the wolf skin and be a real sheep.

            What do you say? 🙂

  • MRH

    “Why is almost the entire Christian world, think there will be a rapture? What part of the bible gives proof that the church will be rapture out?”

    @ Tracy Harris: The rapture is real, but the timing is not understood 🙁

    1Co 15:23-24 KJV – But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    P.S. Those whom are Christ’s are Christians or the church as a whole. We are delivered right before the end period, or day of the Lord prevails. The tribulation also comes before the end, and precedes the rapture.. or resurrection.

    • Iceman4Christ

      You know in the actual original text there where no periods, commas, chapters or verse numbers.

      How do you know that when 1 Corinthians 15:23 was written it was written a tad different than what they translated?

      For example just move the punctuation around and it could of been meant like this.

      1 Corinthians 15:23
      23 But every man in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits, and afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

      Doesn’t Firstfruits imply more than just one? Isn’t it a harvest of many?

      Just some food for thought.

      • MRH

        @ Iceman4Christ: Christ is indeed called the first-fruits. Also the first of a great harvest 😉

        1Co 15:20, 23 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. … But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

        P.S. There once was a bible/ufo site which had tons of holy craft scripture, but sadly the site disappeared 😥 But I just found this reference which has much to ponder 😀

        • Iceman4Christ

          Thank you MRH.

          Way to show you were not caught off gaurd by my question. lol

          Always test everything with scripture! We are in agreement.

        • MRH

          @ Iceman4Christ: YW brother 🙂 BTW I always test what I can with scripture, but not many folk believe my offerings 🙁

          For instance, scripture proves that all tribulation vs. rapture theories are flawed, but none folk recognize things. Likewise concerning the Antichrist vs. False Prophet. People have things twisted. It is the FP not the AC whom claims to be God. But it is the AC whom wars with the saints. Truthfully though, the FP is Lucifer the fallen angel king disguised. So what we see on stage is not what really is. Fallen angels run the show wearing flesh costumes. And it’s evident in the evils that are produced. But when the FP drops his tattered cloak, so will the rest of them drop theirs. And this event transpires after the church departs.

          • Iceman4Christ

            So do you think that Pope Francis or Peter the Roman is the False Prophet?

          • MRH

            @ Iceman4Christ: Yeah, as evidence pretty much declares things, likewise with Obama being the Antichrist. Fact is that we are much closer to the edge than many yet realize. Clues are in the numerous growing signs. Anyway, if you are curious unto my knowledge portal, check out my YT channel 🙂

            https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSi5RZAX5lwJX44-3p4XHcQ

            P.S. I don’t have all the answers, no one does but God yet. However I’m always seeking knowledge unto mysteries. My recent venture is into the world of magic. Is it all parlor tricks or illusions as they all claim? According to my research, not the case. As with media performers, many magicians are using spirits. Without such help there would be no show period.

            What most folk don’t know, is that there is a spirit realm next door to us. Spirits use portals to interact with humans. Of course all involves demon pacts, along with extreme secrecy. Hence secret societies such as the Illuminati orders.

            Anyway, it’s a complicated topic, as many angles involved. Just remember that the pyramid is the enemy, and it’s on the back of the US $1 bill, along with floating evil eye of Lucifer or Satan 😯

          • Iceman4Christ

            I believe Pope Francis is the False Prophet. However I am not sold that Obama is the AnitChrist. I think he is a type of AntiChrist but not The AntiChrist. I keep an open mind.

            I’ll check out your channel for sure.

            Also I always believed that magicians like David Blaine were using some evil spirit to do the things he does. So I agree with you there. I always find it odd how when he levitates that afterwords he has to throw up. That was my first clue that it must be by some evil spirit.

            Yes I believe the all seeing eye is the representative or symbol of Satan and the so called illuminated ones.

      • MRH

        Oops forgot to post link :shame: :blush:

        http://www.openbible.info/topics/ufos

        • Iceman4Christ

          Thank you MRH! I will bookmark this. 🙂

          • MRH

            YW I think I’d better do likewise 😉

            Did you know that there is a bible prophecy verse which seems to predict our many vehicles and freeways and roads? 😉

            Nah 2:4 KJV – The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

            http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7393&t=KJV

            P.S. The bible is filled with such gems of knowledge 🙂

          • Iceman4Christ

            Yes MRH.

            Nah 2:4

            The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

            I remember seeing that about 11 yrs or so ago. Dr. Jack Van Impe was talking about it on one of his programs.

            Isn’t God amazing? Of course God knows the beginning from the end. From His Eternal point of view he can see all things past, present and future and jump in and out of our timeline.

            kind of reminds me of Back to the Future II when there was 2 Doc browns and 2 Marty Mcflys running around. Of course they aren’t God and that was just a movie. 🙂

      • Heather

        Iceman4Christ, do you have a website or other means that I could contact you? If not I willpost my email. I have some questions for you. I haven’t seen you comment on other postings? Honestly, I believe your understanding of the scriptures is pretty high.

        • Iceman4Christ

          I don’t really post a lot on this blog. I just saw it and I found this topic and thought it would be interesting to see what Christians are talking and arguing about.

          You can either do a Iceman4Christ google search or send me comment on my Google + page. I try not to get on facebook or anything like that don’t have it. I feel that the government now days tracks everybody especially us former military. Yes they can track me even in my google + page but the less know about my personal life the better. I just don’t want to be on their radar. It might sound paranoid, but after experiencing how they do things while I was over seas… I don’t trust them. I love my country but the government is Godless.

        • Iceman4Christ
          • Heather

            Ok thanks. I don’t do Facebook either for that same reason.

        • Iceman4Christ
  • MRH

    @ amigodana: We saints go to war against the world riding crafts 😉

    Rev 19:14 KJV – And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    P.S. This war happens after the feast in heaven. And don’t forget that many will be saved during the harvest period, which is after tribulation and rapture.

  • amigodana

    Following the crowd probably would not have done Noah very good!! Nor any of the other prophets MRH !!

  • MRH

    @ amigodana: What are you implying? I don’t follow the crowd but the bible 🙂

    • amigodana

      You didn’t say?

      “Why is almost the entire Christian world, think there will be a rapture? What part of the bible gives proof that the church will be rapture out?”

      So, because everyone else believes it, then it must be true?

      • MRH

        “So, because everyone else believes it, then it must be true?”

        @ amigodana: No, because the bible declares the rapture is true 😉

        Where did the term ‘rapture’ come from?

        Regarding the term rapture and its use in theology the following should answer your questions. It is taken from Ryrie’s Basic Theology, Electronic Media from Parsons Technology.

        Our modern understanding of rapture appears to have little or no connection with the eschatological event. However, the word is properly used of that event. Rapture is a state or experience of being carried away. The English word comes from a Latin word, rapio, which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Rapture of the church means the carrying away of the church from earth to heaven.

        The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

  • amigodana

    Check your email iceman4christ.

    • Iceman4Christ

      Lol.

      Yeah I saw it and replied to it.

      😀

      • amigodana

        Well i haven’t gotten it yet, but I will check tomorrow and reply. I am fixing to go to bed.

        • Iceman4Christ

          I replied came back as failed. 🙁

  • MRH

    @ Iceman4Christ: FYI NTEB inadvertently gave me your email address, due to a seeming glitch in their blog system? BTW That’s how the other guy was able to email you. Anyway, so far I’ve collected many names and addresses due to NTEB glitch, including an NTEB staff person. Why? Because I love free gifts 🙂 But don’t worry, I won’t add your email to my contact list if not desired? 🙁

    Regarding your reply, if Francis is the FP, then Obama must be the AC. Why? Because both entities must be in same time period! And they are in assumed opposition, but actually working together. Each plays a different role in NWO game, and each hides whom they are, while doing their varied agendas. Like the magician whom hides behind parlor tricks and illusions. It’s all a farce to fool the blind populace.. or sheeple! Anyway, my YT page has much to offer 🙂

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ MRH

      I noticed the glitch too. Its alright as long as I don’t get hate mail coming my way its cool.

      I know Obama is a muslim and a liar. If he is The antichrist how is he going to persuade the whole world to follow him. Christians and Jews do not like the man. So how is he going to bring peace and get the Jews to believe he is there long awaited Messiah?

  • MRH

    @ Iceman4Christ: Don’t worry, I don’t send hate mail, only knowledge stuff 🙂

    Well the irony is that the AC doesn’t confirm the covenant, nor is he the world messiah, but rather the destroyer of Christians and Jews 😉

    In regards to the AC and FP, the church has it all wrong. The AC doesn’t confirm the covenant, the FP does. Also the AC is not the wicked one, the FP is. The AC breaks the covenant though, beginning the great holy war in the holy land. Consider below scripture 😉

    Dan 9:26 KJV – And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Dan 9:27 KJV – And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Note: The above ‘he’ represents two different people, not one as is commonly taught. Likewise the case with below ‘king’ figures.

    Dan 11:21-23 KJV – And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

    Dan 11:36 KJV – And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god,and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    2Th 2:3-4 KJV – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    Note: The ‘many’ implies the whole wide world, not just Israel. And the ‘prince of the covenant’ is clearly not the vile one, the AC. Do you not see my point in above? Interestingly, on 9/26/2015 Pope Francis will visit the US.
    http://time.com/3588870/pope-francis-philadelphia-visit/

    World peace must prevail for the temple to rise upon the holy mount, and Francis is the only one with power to bring it to pass. After all, Francis represents the Church, and the Church is now about peace and harmony. In the meantime, the true church is being suppressed, as evident in the media. In fact the online witness platform is gone, due to the new Content ID law. I just had a new video upload blocked world wide, as proof of sad fact! That means no more risky videos, which would restrict witnessing to safe text. And latter next to useless as an end times’
    witness method.

    • Iceman4Christ

      @MRH

      Yes, I see what you are talking about in Daniel 11. I agree that the antichrist will turn against the false prophet during the Tribulation.

      I will look deeper into this theory of yours and read some of your older post to further understand your thinking.

      It is interesting how in Sept of this year we have all these events happening simultaneously. Blood Moon, The Pope, The Shmita yr, possible economic collapse and Jade Helm 15 ends around that same time.

      • Iceman4Christ

        I know one thing for sure.

        That the saint malachy’s prophecies have been pretty accurate so far. According to his prophecy Pope Francis is the last pope.

    • MRH

      @ Iceman4Christ: What’s ironic is that both Obama and Francis are portrayed as gods by the media. Also in some of Obama’s speeches, when reversed produce satanic messages. The thing about Obama which is not well known, is that he has a second throne at the UN. And as we all should know, the UN is the hub of the NWO. Anyway, you might find below knowledge of interest 🙂

      The street design in Washington, D.C., has been laid out in such a manner that certain Luciferic symbols are depicted by the streets, cul-de-sacs and rotaries. This design was created in 1791, a few years after Freemasonry assumed the leadership of the New World Order, in 1782. In Europe, occult leaders were told by their Familiar Spirits as early as the 1740’s that the new American continent was to be established as the new “Atlantis”, and its destiny was to assume the global leadership of the drive to the New World Order. The United States of America was chosen to lead the world into this kingdom of Antichrist from the beginning. The capital is Washington, D.C.

      http://aeroventure.com/BABYLON/BABYLON_home.htm#Washington_D.C._and_Masonic/Luciferic_Symbology

      • MRH

        One other item of wonder, is that they all are associated with the Illuminati, and most flash satanic signs and/or occult symbols. This is a clue unto whom they really are, regardless of the cloak they wear. They are the fallen angels, the rulers of this world. The public is blind unto these facts, because they dwell in the matrix. The below video reveals the horrifying truth behind part of the unholy mystery 😯

        https://youtu.be/eNVJSRkt9yg

  • Tom Branch

    THE RAPTURE IS THE ‘BLESSED HOPE’ WHILE THE SECOND COMING IS A DAY TO BE GREATLY FEARED.
    In my opinion, there is a lot wrong with this reasoning because it is misapplied. I’ll use an example. I realize that the pre-trib position is rapture before the Great Tribulation, and post-trib is rapture after the Great Tribulation, but just to make a point suppose the Lord were to actually come tomorrow, not in secret, but in visible overwhelming power and glory to destroy evil, receive Christians to Himself and establish His Kingdom on earth, who would be in great fear? Would it be the Christians all over the world who are presently being persecuted, tortured, murdered in the most horrible ways because of their faith in Him? Or would it be those who have rejected Him, and the murderers, persecutors, idolators, etc. and maybe even the “on the fence people” who profess Christ, but haven’t actually known Him. For them the Day of the Lord WILL be a day to be greatly feared, but for believers, especially those who are going through tribulation for His name and in His name it WILL be the day of “Blessed Hope.” The pretrib rapture theory is in reality, one of privilege and relative comfort. It is argued “how could the Lord’s visible second coming in glory be the “Blessed Hope” if Christians have to go through the “Great Tribulation?” Pre-tribbers ask “what kind of blessed hope is that?” The answer is that it is a blessed hope to those who are going through tribulation for His sake. Christians have gone through tribulation from the beginning of the church until now. What makes the “Great Tribulation” so horrible is not necessarily the severity of the persecution, but the scope. It will be a world wide persecution. What could be more severe than being boiled in oil, torn limb from limb, being eaten alive by lions, being crucified, being used as human candles to light Nero’s gardens, and on and on. Every torturous and murderous device that man can think of has been used against the true Church through the ages. One only has to read Foxe’s Book of Martyrs to see that Christians throughout history have been suffering severe persecution. It is only the scope that will be the difference before the Lord’s 2nd coming. In the “Great Tribulation” the scope of the horror and destruction of life will be unprecedented, it will be worldwide, but not necessarily more severe. For pre-tribbers to ask how could the Day of the Lord be the “Blessed Hope” when that would mean that the Church would have to go through the Great Tribulation, is wrong headed thinking in many ways. It is a question that is asked out of relative comfort and civilized surroundings. It is a question, in my opinion, that wouldn’t make much sense to the many Christians around the world who are indeed going through a great tribulation of their own even now, to which so many Christians in the West remain relatively silent and unaware. It may be that there will come a day, when there will be no safe haven for the Church anywhere in the world, and all of the Church will be called to stand up for Christ at the risk of their lives just as so many Christians are today. Ask these persecuted Christians if the 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus Christ would be a day of blessed hope for them. When, and if the day comes that the Church is being persecuted around the world by the forces of the anti-christ, then the Day of the Lord WILL be the day of “Blessed Hope.”

    To me a real danger lies in not being open to the possibility that the pre-trib position is not the correct one. Many people are not open to this possibility and will be severely caught off guard and not ready, if it is not. The Lord told us to watch and be ready.

    Also, when reading the actual verse in Titus 2:13 we can see that Paul is equating the “blessed hope” with the “glorious appearing.” The glorious appearing occurs when “…they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Matt. 24:27) And this is itself a reference to the Day of The Lord. The pre-tribbers always apply the term “blessed hope” to a pre-tribulation rapture, but nowhere in scripture is the rapture called “the blessed hope.” So why, when the blessed hope is mentioned here in Titus 2:13 should it be associated with a rapture that’s separate from His glorious appearing? In context Paul is saying that the “blessed hope” IS His glorious appearing. The blessed hope is the glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is our blessed hope, not a secret rapture. To claim that it is a reference to a pre-tribulation rapture is a mistaken assumption based on a pre-tribulation bias.

    Also, there is an artificial distinction created by pre-tribbers between the “Day of the Lord,” the “Day of Christ,” and the “Day of God” when there is no distinction. They each refer to the “Day of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Corinthians 1:8) when “…the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed…” (II Thess. 1:7-10)

    This is the “blessed hope” of the saints that Paul is referring to when you read it in context with the rest of scripture with an unbiased view.

    • amigodana

      What you just said will either go over their heads, they will ignore your points, or they will lash out at you!

      But I say good job!!! Good talking points!!!

      • Tom Branch

        Thanks amigodana. I think this is something very important that we as believers should be discussing, not in animosity, but in a way the would be pleasing to God. I really hope there will not be any lashing, out. Although you’re probably right

        • amigodana

          I agree; I also pray that we;

          (Proverbs 3:5) “¶ Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.”

          After all we can be assured that;

          (2 Timothy 3:16) “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

          Unfortunately some people ignore parts of the bible, they claim that Christ is divided;

          (1 Corinthians 1:13) “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?”

          And mainly its because I don’t think they believe WHO God is;

          (John 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

          (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

    • Iceman4Christ

      @Tom; Am.I.god.Ana and Jim Black

      Nice theory Tom!

      However it is 2 seperate events.

      How do you explain Isaiah 26? Especially 26:19-21!

      Isa 26:19-21

      19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

      As you can see in verse 19-20 we are taken up into the Lords chambers then the Tribulation starts.

      Then in Joel 2:16 we come out of those same chambers. Then Come back at the 2nd coming to Armageddon. If you read Joel 2 This is the great and terrible day of the LORD.

      Joe 2:16

      Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

      Look up chamber and closet and it has the same meaning.

      Also whoever said it was secret?

      Every believer is watching and praying as Jesus commanded in Luke 21:36.

      So this catching away “rapture” will not be a surprise to us.

      Rather to those foolish virgins (christians who are not prepared, lack faith or doubt) and every unbeliever, They will be left behind to go through the Tribulation. The Lord comes as a Thief unto them. Not us.

      <bHave you not read 1 Thessalonians 5?

      1Th 5:1

      But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be soberb. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

      There are 3 raptures happening around the time of the Tribulation.

      1. The Church is raptured up before the Tribulation.
      2. The 2 witnesses are raptured at the midway point.
      3. Then all those foolish virgins, those who became Christians, the elect and those that survived will be gathered together and seperated as sheep and goats at the end.

      If it all happened at the end like you suggest then who will go into the millenium for us to rule and reign over?

      If the rapture happened at the end then all you have is glorified immortal saints. Who will replenish the earth during the millenium?

      Your theory is in error according to the Word of God.

      For ages and the past 2,000 yrs everyone has had some kind of tribulation.

      I’ve been to the middle east and have seen war. In hostile Islamic territory. Have you? I know the horrors of war. Do you?

      Believe me Sir what is coming in the Tribulation is so great and far worst than anything that has ever happened on this planet.

      I believe scripture says it best.

      Jer 30:7

      Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

      Know when the door opens and the Lord says with the voice of a trumpet “COME UP HERE!” Me and other believers like me we are gone!

      If you want to stay no one is forcing you. God is a gentelman and He will not force you either. Once that door is shut don’t come crying for it to be opened up, because all you are going to here is “I DON’T KNOW YOU!” and Jesus will be saying that.

      Peace to all who are watching and waiting.

      Vengeance to all who are in disbelief.

      Which one will you choose?

      • Tom Branch

        Hi,

        You bring up quite a few interesting points. Originally just intended to discuss the “blessed hope.” First of all let me say that is a great discussion. So many of the people on both sides have made good points. I just hope that we could have this discussion in a way that honors the Lord, and not in backbiting, sarcasm, accusation, belittling, and so on. We as believers need to have this discussion, but can’t we do it in a charitable manner. My mind isn’t closed to the pre-trib position, and no I don’t want to go through the Great Tribulation, but if the bible teaches that the church will go through it, then we have to accept that and be ready. In my opinion there are flaws and unanswered questions on both sides of the issue. I just don’t believe in most of the arguments that many Christians use to defend the pre-trib position. Some of the arguments are compelling however. I never get to the point where I feel that I know it all, and hopefully I will never delude myself into thinking that I do. We may not be able to change each others minds, but perhaps we can change our attitudes towards each other. If this is all that’s accomplished then that would be a great step.

        You brought up many points. Too many for me to address here right now, but regarding I Thess. 5, yes I have read it and the “thief in the night” reference is addressing the “Day of the Lord.” All of the “Day of the Lord” scriptures point to it occurring after the Great Tribulation. The Day of the Lord and the Lord’s glorious appearing are one and the same. So when the bible refers to it as coming as a “thief in the night,” it’s referring to the Day of His glorious appearing. This verse is often associated with the rapture, and indeed it does if the rapture is concurrent with the Day of the Lord.

        • Iceman4Christ

          @Tom

          -“I just hope that we could have this discussion in a way that honors the Lord, and not in backbiting, sarcasm, accusation, belittling, and so on. We as believers need to have this discussion, but can’t we do it in a charitable manner.”

          Thank you Tom. I can agree with you here in the statement that you made.

          I know I am guilty of some of these things. It is sometimes difficult to find Christians who want to have a discussion and share the Word with. Sometimes I hear things that come out of the mouths of Christians and I am disappointed. Then I wonder if they learned that at Church or who is teaching you these things?

          There are a few believers on here in which I can say I have enjoyed some talks with. Then there are those on here who are to childish to even carry a discussion with.

          The Truth will offend some, if not many. Jesus did tell us that. Sometimes people don’t like the truth because it goes against there preconceived ideas.

          Tom I can honestly say that you are in the category of people like Heather, Mike, Mr. Grinder, a few others and even MRH.
          Now I don’t always agree with MRH, but I do enjoy our conversations. I am also willing to keep an open mind and look into his theory about the Last Days and Endtime prophecy.
          People like you and him are the good example.

          On to the Subject at hand!

          Concerning the Lord’s Glorious Appearing and The Day of the Lord. I still have to respectfully disagree with you.

          These are still 2 separate events.

          The Day of the Lord is known by many names. At the top of my head they are The Time of Jacobs Trouble, The Day of Vengeance, a time of trouble, the Tribulation and even Zeph 1:15 says – That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

          The Day of the Lord is a time period in which God pounds a Christ rejecting world into submission. It is also a time when He will save Israel and fulfill His promises to them. That is why it is called the time of Jacobs trouble.

          They Jacob and Israel are one and the same.

          The Lord’s Glorious appearing happens at the end of the 7yr period.
          Make no mistake! This 7yr period is also known as the Day of the Lord. This is when Jesus the Christ comes back with His bride(the Church) to earth.

          HOW can Jesus come to those unbelievers as a Thief in the Night if at His Glorious Appearing He reveals Himself to the whole world?

          Jesus said just as lightning shines from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

          It is also written in Rev 1.

          Rev 1:7 – Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

          Do you see the contradiction?

          If its the same event then how can He come as a Theif to the unbeliever? Then Appear where everyone sees its Him?

          If you read Revelation it says that many people will blaspheme God for punishing them. Even when they know it is God they will still curse Him!

          God will make sure everyone will know He is coming during the Tribulation and He wants everybody to repent!

          Here are 4 examples as to how far God will go to save the unbeliever and His people.

          1. You have the 2 witness who will proclaim Jesus during the 1st 3 and 1/2 yrs of this 7yr Tribulation.

          2. You have Jews from the 12 tribes who become the 144,000 Messianic Jews who also proclaim Jesus in this time period.

          3. You have the Tribulation Saints proclaiming Jesus during this time period.

          4. You even have angels proclaiming the Gospel to the world during this time period.

          So by the end of the Tribulation, before His Glorious Appearing. Everyone on earth will know that God has punished a Christ rejecting world and will see Him coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

          In the End God is not coming like a Thief of the Night because everyone will be aware of who God is.

          So the Thief in the Night will happen before the 7yr Tribulation when MANY in the WORLD will least expect it.

          -God Bless

          • Ron Murphy

            There are 2 distinctive events, the rapture at the end of tribulation, then the wrath of God and Christ return near the end of that wrath, specifically at the 6th plague, when the nations are gathered to fight at Armageddon, Rev 9:15-16, and Rev 16:12-16. Now please understand the battle must be fought first, before dominion is attained. Christ reigning is evident at the first of the 7th plague, Rev 11:15 & Rev 16:17 “it is done”. The only plague left is the mighty earthquake and great hail, Rev 11:19 & Rev 16:18-21. This is in relation to Zechariah 14:4 When the wide valley is made spitting Jerusalem and the temple mound apart. Not one stone will be upon the other, it will all be plowed under.

      • This post demonstrates precisely why the Pre-Tribulation position is so unbiblical. Seriously! All we hear is how Pre-Trib is the only one that takes the bible literally and ‘rightly dividing the word’ and understanding the proper distinction between Israel and the church, and then we get pap like this.
        You know, literal minded as I am, when I see a passage written specifically of Israel and the land of Judah and the strong city of Jerusalem (26v1), I believe it’s about Israel, not the church.
        And literal minded as I am, when I see the self-same passage written to Israel talks about them needing to take the practical measure of hiding inside the inner room on the day of God’s wrath when the Lord’s dead are being raised, just as they had to hide in the inner room during the wrath of the Exodus against Egypt, then that’s how I take it. I certainly don’t claim it as ‘proof’ that a largely Gentile church is going to be involuntarily raptured from the earth, seven years before what the rest of the passage describes. How utterly absurd! That is appalling bad exegesis, a deeply deceitful teaching, and yet you use this as a basis for claiming that others are in error according to the word of the Lord. That’s a strong delusion right there.

        And then Joel 2.16, a passage written to Israel, and talking about human brides and grooms coming out of their chamber to mourn and fast in public, and somehow this becomes ‘proof’ of a Pre-Trib position and is really saying that the saints come out of heaven? What absurdity! Talk about ripping passages out of context and making them say whatever you want, rather than reading them in context. And on this basis, we are supposed to believe that you are rightly dividing the word of God? Unbelievable!

        You sir, need to get down of your high horse and start at bible-reading kindergarten if you think this is in any way sound teaching.

    • MRH

      “What makes the “Great Tribulation” so horrible is not necessarily the severity of the persecution, but the scope. It will be a world wide persecution”

      @ Tom Branch: If you say so, then why does scripture state otherwise? 😉

      Luk 21:20-24 KJV – And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

      Note: Jerusalem, Judea, the land, this people.

      Doesn’t sound very global to me. Also the Great Tribulation is not a Christian trial, but rather the result of a major demonic event, called the ‘abomination of desolation’. It’s what will wake up the many sleeping Jews and Christians and even others globally. Which will result in global persecution of course, but the main firestorm will be in Israel 😉

      At the end of the GT the rapture prevails, followed by the wrath and harvest period, for those living whom failed the holy escape route.

      • Tom Branch

        Hi, MRH

        This scripture is referencing the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and happened just as Jesus foretold.

        • MRH

          No, I don’t think so. That scripture references the tribulation to come. Compare Luke 21 with Matthew 24.. same events different description 😉

          Mat 24:2 KJV – And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

          Mat 24:15-16, 21 KJV – When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: … For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

          Luk 21:6, 20-22 KJV – As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. … And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

          P.S. The abomination prophecy is yet future, and ties into Antichrist prophecy. What it is, is yet mystery. But I suspect it will involve the NWO somehow. The joining of the eye to pyramid base, births the NWO and Antichrist reign 😉

          • Tom Branch

            Yes, the accounts in Matthew and Luke are similar, but keep in mind that Jesus is answering the question that the disciples posed to Him in Matt. 24:3. In the previous verse Jesus told them, “…do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

            The shocked and flabbergasted disciples in response, asked Him “…tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?

            There are actually three questions being presented here

            1. When will these things happen (i.e. when will there be not one stone left upon another?)

            2. What will be the sign of your coming?

            3. and the end of the age?

            Luke records Jesus’ answer to the first part of the question, and that was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Romans leveled the Temple and decimated Jerusalem.

            Matthew records Jesus’ response to the last two parts of the question where Jesus is describing the events and conditions leading up to the sign of His coming and the end of the age.

            “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:29,30)

            In describing some of the events leading up to this Jesus mentions the abomination to desolation committed by the anti-christ which is also described in Daniel 9:27; 12:11 and 2 Thess. 2:4.

            2 Thess. 2:4 says the anti-christ will be the one “…who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

            In Matt. 24:15-21 Jesus is describing this event.

            “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation…

            Notice in Luke, Jesus is describing the destruction of the Temple in answer to the first part of the disciple’s question, but in Matt the Lord is describing the desecration of the Temple when the anti-christ sits there and declares that he is God. Even though both narratives describe a mass evacuation of Jerusalem, they are different events and happen at different times. One in 70 A.D. and the other at some period of time in the future before the Great Tribulation and the Lord’s return.

          • Iceman4Christ

            @Tom

            “Notice in Luke, Jesus is describing the destruction of the Temple in answer to the first part of the disciple’s question, but in Matt the Lord is describing the desecration of the Temple when the anti-christ sits there and declares that he is God. Even though both narratives describe a mass evacuation of Jerusalem, they are different events and happen at different times. One in 70 A.D. and the other at some period of time in the future before the Great Tribulation and the Lord’s return.”

            I agree with you on the Matt and Luke comparisons.

          • I also agree on the Matthew and Luke Comparisons. One other thing to think about in support. In Luke 21 Jesus answers questions in public in the Temple area, and then at the end of the chapter he goes out to the Mount of Olives. In Mark 13 and Matthew 24, a small group of disciples (four in Mark) ask him about it after they have left the Temple, and when they were on the Mount of Olives – they were asking for greater clarification of Jesus’ much more public remarks in Luke 21

        • MRH

          @ Tom Branch: Yes I know such is a popular theory, but I’m afraid that popular doesn’t equal correct. By similar I meant the events are the exact same, but described differently by the different writers. Note the below verses, and different descriptions regarding the same major future holy war in the holy land 🙂

          Mat 24:21 KJV – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

          Mar 13:19 KJV – For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

          Luk 21:22 KJV – For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

          Now lets compare the three Gospel versions of what occurs after the time of trouble in Israel 🙂

          Mat 24:29-30 KJV – Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

          Mar 13:24-26 KJV – But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

          Luk 21:25-27 KJV – And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

          P.S. As clearly shown above, all three Gospels are describing the exact same things, but in a different fashion. And this odd effect is true with other elements such as the crucifixion episode. One writer adds while another writer subtracts elements, while other things repeat exactly or very close. So if you tie all episodes of the crucifixion together, it appears that there possibly might have been actually four criminals crucified with Jesus, not just two as tradition teaches 😯 😉

          • Tom Branch

            OK, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, but thanks for your dialogue. It is refreshing and stimulating to be able to have these in depth biblical discussions. This is a great forum and a blessing.

            Peace be with you in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

          • Iceman4Christ

            @MRH

            Actually what happened in 70 ad is only a precursor of what is to come in the future.

            Kind of like that say for a trailer to a movie. It is a preview of coming attractions. 🙂

            God works in cycles through out History.

          • MRH

            “OK, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, but thanks for your dialogue”

            @ Tom Branch: Then maybe you are either a deluded saint, or a deceiving sinner? Which category is mystery, but you battle hard 😉

    • Amen, as a theologian, I can say that pretty much everything you say is very biblical. For one of my latest books, soon to be published, called ‘the Rapture trap’ I devote a very long chapter to analyzing every single set of last days phraseology across old and New Testaments, and particularly focusing on ‘the day of the Lord’ and related phrases, and what you say is exactly the case.
      Spot on re Titus 2.13. The only way to consistently interpret the Greek Grammar if you are a Pre-Tribber is to also interpret the final set of linked nouns in the same way, and that leads to Heresy, because it would mean that the Invisible God, the Father, would appear, contradicting all the rest of Scripture.

  • Jim Black

    You’re right on the money, Tom. You can supplement Titus 2:13 with 1 Pet. 4:13 to prove the rapture and second coming occur at the d of the tribulation.

    ord bless

    • MRH

      Actually there are two stages in the return event. The first stage is the rapture of the church, which occurs at the end of tribulation. The second stage is the glorious coming, which occurs at the end of the world.

      Mat 24:21, 27, 29-30 KJV – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. … For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. … Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

      1Co 15:20, 23-24 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. … But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    • Amen!

  • MRH

    @ Iceman4Christ: You ask; “Whom will populate the millennium?” Consider below 🙂

    Luk 20:34-36 KJV – And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    Rev 19:17-18, 21 KJV – And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. … And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Rev 20:4-6 KJV – And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Humanity as we know it will gone by the millennium.. up in heaven (alive), or down in hell (dead). Therefore the population of millennium can ONLY be resurrected saints, which includes ALL SAINTS (NO SINNERS)! The first resurrection begins with the tribulation saints (church (rapture)), and ends with the wrath saints (martyrs (coming)).

    After the millennium is the resurrection of the sinners, ending with their final judgment. And of those which pass by their works (good), they will be of the future new heaven and earth scenario. Those that fail by their works (evil) will be simply erased from eternal life hope factor! You do understand I hope?

    Now concerning tribulation or persecution, what is the worst thing that can happen to us? Well if one is saved, the worst possible thing is plain death. But then we all physically die or do we not? If you disagree, then prove your immortality theory!? :mrgreen:

    P.S. The church will not suffer the beast (Lucifer) nor his mark (enslavement), for all such dark things happen after the rapture event. Also know that God controls all tides. Satan cannot do anything against Gods will! Therefore if darkness occurs, then God allowed it to happen. Remember Job 🙂

    • Iceman4Christ

      @MRH

      So will the Resurrected Tribulation saints that live in the 1000 yr reign of Christ be mortal or immortal?

      • MRH

        @ Iceman4Christ: Immortal of course brother, and scripture speaks best 🙂

        Job 14:14 KJV – If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

        Dan 12:13 KJV – But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

        Mat 22:30 KJV – For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

        Jhn 6:40 KJV – And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

        1Co 15:25-26, 49, 53 KJV – For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. … And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

        Col 3:3-4 KJV – For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

        1Pe 5:4 KJV – And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

        1Jo 3:2 KJV – Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

        Rev 20:6 KJV – Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

        P.S. As detailed above, death ends by the millennium for the saints. There is still death for the sinner, but I’m not quite sure the situation. It appears they die twice, then are judged? Which means they won’t get immortal bodies in the second resurrection. Nor are they guaranteed eternal life, Which all would suck royally!

        • Iceman4Christ

          @MRH

          So are you saying that these Glorified Immortal Saints that go into the Millennium will have children?

        • MRH

          @ Iceman4Christ: Do angels have children? Marriage game ends at resurrection 😀

          Luk 20:34-36 KJV – And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

          P.S. Procreation will no longer be necessary, as death will be no more 😀

          • Iceman4Christ

            @MRH

            Sorry! I have to respectfully disagree with you here.

            There will be many Christians who come out of the Tribulation who did not die or take the mark of the beast. They will still enter the Millennium with there mortal bodies.

            For time sake instead of me writing it all out here is a summery from a Professor of Theology that I agree with.

            by Tony Garland

            Scripture seems very clear that entry into the millennial kingdom is reserved exclusively for the saved: those who reject Jesus will be removed at the second coming of Christ when He establishes his earthly rule on the throne of David (Mat. 13:30,40-42; 22:12-13; 24:37-41; 25:41-46; Mark 8:10-12; Luke 17:26-37; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:17-21).

            God’s resurrection program ensures that all the redeemed, both those still living and those who have already died prior to the Second Coming, will participate in the millennium. But there will be several different categories of believers who enter the millennium.

            Those who died prior to the giving of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, who never experienced Spirit baptism, and therefore were not part of the Church, the Body of Christ (John 7:38-39; 1Cor. 12:13).

            Those who came to faith after the coming of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, but who died before the catching away of the Church (the Rapture). These are raised and participate in the Rapture (1Th. 4:16-17).

            Those who come to faith after the coming of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, and remain living at the time of the Rapture (1Th. 4:16-17). These do not experience death, but are translated directly into a glorified state (1Cor. 15:52).

            Those who come to faith after the departure of the Church at the Rapture, but who are martyred during the Tribulation (Dan. 7:25; Rev. 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 13:7; 20:4).

            Those who come to faith after the Rapture and survive the Tribulation (the “sheep” and “My brethren” of Matt. 25:31-40).

            Of these different categories, only the last enter the millennium in their natural bodies. These are the “sheep” (gentile believers) and “my brethren” (Jewish believers) which Jesus mentions in Matthew 25. All the other saints participate in the Millennium after their resurrection (or translation) and glorification. Thus, the millennial kingdom begins with the following participants:

            – Jesus Christ reigning from the throne of David.

            – Glorified, perfected saints governing with Him.

            – Unglorified saints who, although experiencing a time of great blessing and long life, still produce sinful offspring and experience the curse of death (Isa. 65:18-25, compare especially Isa. 65:20 with Rev. 21:4).

            At the close of the millennium, it is the unbelieving offspring of this last group who are deceived by Satan to participate in one final rebellion against the reign of Jesus from the midst of Jerusalem (Ps. 2; Rev. 20:7-9).

            If you still don’t agree then I will give you a prophecy from Genesis that does mention the Millennium and these mortal children. I will have to translate some names because that prophecy is hidden in the names. So when I get the time I will post that prophecy for you. 😀

      • MRH

        “There will be many Christians who come out of the Tribulation who did not die or take the mark of the beast. They will still enter the Millennium with there mortal bodies”

        @ Iceman4Christ: The problem is that the tribulation does not continue until millennium, but until rapture. Also there won’t be any Christians on earth after rapture, as we are spared wrath. But there will be many martyrs formed during the wrath. Consider following scriptures 🙂

        Rev 7:13-17 KJV – And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

        Comment: I believe the above is a symbolic reference to Christians throughout the ages, not only to the ‘great tribulation’. Why? Because of the great number involved. Also ‘blood of the Lamb’. The latter can only apply to the church group, which is global (past, present, future).

        Rev 14:9-10 KJV – And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

        Comment: A critical clue is the mention of ‘wrath of God’, which implies the above group is not from the tribulation, but rather the wrath or harvest period. For the church is not appointed to wrath, so this group can’t possibly be referring to Christians.

        Rev 15:2 KJV – And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

        Comment: So how were the above group victorious? Simply, they became martyrs, as stated in Revelation 20 below.

        Rev 19:17, 19, 21 KJV – And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; … And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. … And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

        Comment: As above declares, the ‘remnant’ refers to the remainder of humanity that was still alive then. So by next chapter, humanity as now is destroyed, and replaced with a new type of immortals.

        Rev 20:4 KJV – And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

        Comment: A critical clue is the long time factor. Obviously humans can’t survive a thousand years? Also they were ‘beheaded’, which means killed.. martyrs. And whom are the ones on thrones judging? I believe they represents the church, but unfortunately the passage doesn’t say.

        Conclusion: The tribulation saints represent the multitudes of Christians since Pentecost, and which would include the apostles and us, as well those new converts in coming short tribulation. The wrath martyrs are new converts formed after the tribulation and rapture of the church. After the martyr harvest, the wrath of God prevails upon the heathen remainder, destroying them all by the end. The millennium will be a time of blessing for all, as it will be devoid of darkness and death 😀

        P.S Anyway, that’s my take on things so far, but your choice to agree or debate 💡 😉

    • So if the Millennium is solely populated by resurrection saints, how come at the end of the Tribulation, Satan is able to raise a huge army and deceive the nations again to attack the ‘camp of the saints’ at Jerusalem (Revelation 20.7-10)? Sorry, just doesn’t work, and isn’t ‘rightly dividing the word of God’.

  • MRH

    “The Day of the Lord is known by many names. At the top of my head they are The Time of Jacobs Trouble, The Day of Vengeance, a time of trouble, the Tribulation”

    @ Iceman4Christ: Actually the ‘Day of the Lord’ is the; end, harvest, wrath, etc. The things you mention above concern the tribulation. Also, the rapture occurs before the dark day. Consider below 😉

    2Th 2:2-3, 7-8 KJV – That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; … For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Note: the ‘falling away (apostasia*)’ is also ‘taken out of the way’. This is a vaguely hinted reference unto the rapture, which begins the day of Christ in heaven, and the day of the Lord on earth. Also the second coming, though not the glorious appearance yet 😉

    *646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, “leave, depart,” which is derived from 575 /apó, “away from” and 2476 /histémi, “stand”) – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, “a leaving, from a previous standing.”

    In a broad sense that’s what the rapture is all about; departure, defection, desertion, or leaving of the planet. The dramatic portion of the holy return happens afterward at the end of the wrath. The church will be with Jesus then, as his heavenly army, along with all the holy angels 🙂

    P.S. And of course you are free to agree or debate matters as usual. I’ve given scriptural proof as best I can, but I can’t twist peoples arms. That part is Jesus’ job at his return, and none will be able to debate with him 😉

  • Pete

    I think I understand both of your views, I, however, am a little perplexed. I hope there is a pre-tribulation rapture just please explain to me how many resurrections there are? I understand only two, one for the just and one for the unjust. With that said how do those left behind get saved? And if martyrdom is the price for salvation during the tribulation, which is a common view, when does that dead believer get resurrected? Also if we look at ancient Israel we never see God removing them from tribulations He sees a remnant safely through it.

    Now on the other hand the ancient Israeli wedding celebration lasted one week. I can see the Messiahs bride celebrating with Him in heaven for seven years, the time frame of the tribulation. Also an understanding of the ancient Israeli wedding ceremony is a beautiful foreshadowing of how Messiah will come for his bride, the virgins, the lamps, oil, the father of the groom selects the bride for his son and the bride must accept the groom, the husbandman goes to his fathers house to prepare a place for him and his bride. An awesome study and comparison to the relationship we have with Messiah Yeshua.

    So you see why I have some questions as to whether there is a rapture or not. Both sides sound right to me. I do know one thing for sure pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture; one is right and two are wrong.

    • MRH

      “I think I understand both of your views, I, however, am a little perplexed. I hope there is a pre-tribulation rapture just please explain to me how many resurrections there are? I understand only two, one for the just and one for the unjust. With that said how do those left behind get saved?”

      @Pete: The critical question is are you saved? Born again of God I presume? A true believer in the holy gospel? If so, then why salvation or tribulation fear? But if you desire holy knowledge unto others, then first consider gospel witness? For without salvation hope offering, all other holy knowledge is vain unto lost!

      • Iceman4Christ

        @MRH

        Luk 20:34-36 KJV -Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

        Luke 20:34-36 refers to the believers that are raptured.

        Rev 19:17-18, 21 KJV -… And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

        Rev. 19:17-18,21 Refers to the unbelievers who stand against God. These are also called the goats of Matt. 25:32

        Not everyone that is alive in the flesh at this point will die you see, because it is the sheep who enter into the millennium in their mortal bodies and all the raptured saints. Including the Tribulation Saints will come back to reign over the sheep during the millennium.

        Rev 20:4-6 KJV -Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

        Rev. 20:4-6 Is talking about the Tribulation Saints who come back with Jesus at His 2nd coming.

        “Humanity as we know it will gone by the millennium.. up in heaven (alive), or down in hell (dead). Therefore the population of millennium can ONLY be resurrected saints, which includes ALL SAINTS (NO SINNERS)! The first resurrection begins with the tribulation saints (church (rapture)), and ends with the wrath saints (martyrs (coming)). ” -MRH

        Again this is also incorrect. There will be sinners in the millennium. just read Isaiah 65.

        Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

        Just by this Isaiah scripture alone your understanding of the millennium is false.

        Also the rapture of the Church happens before the tribulation starts. Not during, because the Tribulation Saints are already being Martyred at the beginning of the Tribulation during the 5th seal. If your theory was correct then every one would be raptured and there would be no saints to even rapture at what you called “(martyrs (coming))”. I am guessing you believe in a pre-wrath rapture of the church.

        “P.S. The church will not suffer the beast (Lucifer) nor his mark (enslavement), for all such dark things happen after the rapture event. Also know that God controls all tides. Satan cannot do anything against Gods will! Therefore if darkness occurs, then God allowed it to happen. Remember Job :)” -MRH

        Yes I know Job well. God tested and allowed Satan to Tempt Job. However the Church will not even go through the Tribulation.

        Question? Are you married? If not do you have a special someone you desire to marry someday?

        “P.S. As detailed above, death ends by the millennium for the saints. There is still death for the sinner, but I’m not quite sure the situation. It appears they die twice, then are judged? Which means they won’t get immortal bodies in the second resurrection. Nor are they guaranteed eternal life, Which all would suck royally!” -MRH

        SMACK <— I just had to smack my head on that quote of yours. Seems to me this is just a theory of yours in progress. I also hear doubt in this quote of yours. If you yourself don’t understand it and can’t comprehend it then, why are you trying to teach others?

        “P.S. Procreation will no longer be necessary, as death will be no more” -MRH

        Incorrect. Again just read Isaiah 65 about the millennium and it says otherwise. 🙂

        Rev 7:13-17 KJV -And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple:

        “Comment: I believe the above is a symbolic reference to Christians throughout the ages, not only to the ‘great tribulation’. Why? Because of the great number involved. Also ‘blood of the Lamb’. The latter can only apply to the church group, which is global (past, present, future).”-MRH

        Obviously Rev. 7:13-17 is in reference to the Tribulation Saints. Those who were martyred in Rev. 6:9!

        Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

        There is no symbolism involved in Rev. 7:13-17. If there was then the scripture would also let you know what that symbolism means or represents. For example. Rev. 17 implies symbolism then tells you what that symbolism means.

        “Comment: A critical clue is the mention of ‘wrath of God’, which implies the above group is not from the tribulation, but rather the wrath or harvest period. For the church is not appointed to wrath, so this group can’t possibly be referring to Christians.” -MRH

        Wrong Again my friend! The Wrath is a part of the Tribulation. It is a 7yr period of hell on earth. Divided into 2 parts. This Wrath period will include Tribulation saints who are still being slaughtered and many will still survive to the end of this Tribulation period.
        Wrath is still wrath! How can the 2 be different?

        Then you try to tie Revelation 15 to 20 and say

        “Comment: So how were the above group victorious? Simply, they became martyrs, as stated in Revelation 20 below.” -MRH

        Rev 15:2 KJV And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

        Rev 20:4 KJV And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

        Hey what do you know? I can agree with this hear because I am sure I have read about these guys somewhere else…? Oh yeah! Rev. 6 and 7… 😀

        Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

        Rev 7:13-17 KJV -And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple:

        “Comment: As above declares, the ‘remnant’ refers to the remainder of humanity that was still alive then. So by next chapter, humanity as now is destroyed, and replaced with a new type of immortals. ” -MRH

        Incorrect. The Sheep of Matt. 25:32 are mortal men entering into the Millennium and Isaiah 65 also says otherwise.

        “Comment: A critical clue is the long time factor. Obviously humans can’t survive a thousand years? Also they were ‘beheaded’, which means killed.. martyrs. And whom are the ones on thrones judging? I believe they represents the church, but unfortunately the passage doesn’t say.” -MRH

        Mortal men will survive for almost a thousand yrs in the Millennium.

        The ones Judging on the Thrones will be the 12 Apostles and 12 others from the tribes of Israel. If they are more than 24 then the Church will rule and reign with Jesus the Christ during the millennium over the sheep who entered the millennium who are mortal.

        Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

        Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

        “Conclusion: The tribulation saints represent the multitudes of Christians since Pentecost, and which would include the apostles and us, as well those new converts in coming short tribulation. The wrath martyrs are new converts formed after the tribulation and rapture of the church. After the martyr harvest, the wrath of God prevails upon the heathen remainder, destroying them all by the end. The millennium will be a time of blessing for all, as it will be devoid of darkness and death” -MRH

        In Matthew 27 you already have some Old Testament saint resurrected. This happened way before your interpretation of events. That is why there are many resurrections or raptures in the scriptures.

        Then lets not forget Moses and Elijah appearing at the Mount of Transfiguration.

        Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

        Mat 27:52-53 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

        “P.S Anyway, that’s my take on things so far, but your choice to agree or debate” -MRH

        In Conclusion. I am in total disagreement with your interpretation of these events. You seem to take a lot of things out of context and then you insert your thoughts into what you think these scripture mean. Why not just let the scripture speak for itself? It says what it says and it means what it means. You don’t have to insert symbolism into it. The fact that you even doubt some of the stuff you said or haven’t a clue about the deaths in the millennium. Tells me you shouldn’t be teaching any of this to anybody.

        As it says in scripture…

        1Ti 1:6-7 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

        2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

        We will have to agree to disagree. 😀

    • Iceman4Christ

      There are 3 raptures happening around the time of the Tribulation.

      1. The Church is raptured up before the Tribulation.
      2. The 2 witnesses are raptured at the midway point.
      3. Then all those foolish virgins, those who became Christians, the elect and those that survived will be gathered together and separated as sheep and goats at the end.

      Just check out some of my earlier post up top which explains a lot about the rapture and How Jesus voice is the Trumpet.

      • MRH

        @ Iceman4Christ: You do know that evidence is needed to prove any case? By evidence I mean infallible proof, not just wild theories 😉

        1) So you think the church escapes any tribulation aspect?

        1Th 3:4 KJV – For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

        Rev 1:9 KJV – I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

        2) So whom are the two witnesses; Moses & Elijah, unknown entities?

        Mat 24:14 KJV – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

        Act 1:8 KJV – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

        Act 22:15 KJV – For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

        3) So are you also determining damnation/salvation aspect?

        Complicated controversial topic, as many variables involved!!! 🙁

        P.S. The trumpet is the rapture event, and Jesus’ coming causes it 🙂

        Curiously, are you a wheat or tare? I hate dark games, as are deceptions! Your odd cold name choice Iceman4Christ makes me wonder?

        • Iceman4Christ

          @ MRH

          Did you even bother to read that long post I painstakingly wrote to you? I answered everyone of your questions or countered everyone of your version of rapture, trib and the millennium. 🙁

          1) So you think the church escapes any tribulation aspect? -MRH

          I already answered this multiple times in the blog. Just like I went back and read your many posts. Can you please do the same?

          2) So whom are the two witnesses; Moses & Elijah, unknown entities? -MRH

          Revelation says 2 witness. It doesn’t say who they are but, I can make a case for both. Also the 2 witness is not Israel and the Church if that is what you were going to say. 🙂

          3) So are you also determining damnation/salvation aspect?

          Brother. I already answered many of this in previous post.

          Keep in mind the 7yr tribulation is the Time of Jacob’s trouble. Not the Time of the Brides trouble or the Time of the Churches trouble! Have you not read what Jesus said in Matthew.

          <bMat 16:18

          And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

          So by your interpretation of events the gates of hell is prevailing against the church during the tribulation. So I disagree with your interpretation.

          Also Paul says it best.

          Rom 11:25

          For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

          Once all gentile believers are redeemed the Church is removed and God goes back to dealing with Israel and sets them back on the path that He chose for them. Starting in the Tribulation.

          Also once He is removed out of the way then the Wicked One will be revealed.

          2Th 2:7-8
          For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

          So I ask you. Who do you think He who know letteth will, until He be taken out of the way is?

          The Holy Ghost! Of course. Who is it that dwells in the Temple?

          1Co 6:19

          What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

          So if God removes the Holy Ghost does that mean the church is without the Holy Ghost at the start of the Tribulation and the Wicked one the AntiChrist is revealed?

          “Complicated controversial topic, as many variables involved!!!” 🙁 -MRH

          Actually you are making it more complicated than it really is.

          P.S. The trumpet is the rapture event, and Jesus’ coming causes it 🙂

          Incorrect. There are many trumpets happening during the Tribulation. Which trumpet in your mind causes the 2nd coming?

          Rapture happens before the Tribulation starts and the 2nd coming occurs at the end of it.
          So Like I stated earlier. When the Antichrist is revealed because He was taken out of the way who also dwells in the temple of the believers (the Church). Are you saying the Church will see antichrist revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation?

          “Curiously, are you a wheat or tare? I hate dark games, as are deceptions! Your odd cold name choice Iceman4Christ makes me wonder?” -MRH

          Shame on you MRH! 🙁

          I thought we were friends. Truly, I tell you I am a Born-Again Believer in the Word of God (WHEAT). I have been born again since I was 16 yrs old.

          I use to be worldly. Even then I was into hardcore rap and other thuggish things.
          But one night the LORD showed me something incredible and what He showed me opend up my eyes. Yes He showed me a vision and what I saw caused me to confess my sins and repent. I gave my life to the Messiah of Israel, Jesus the Christ.
          I do not regret it. You see back then I had many friends and girlfriends. They use to call me Iceman for many reasons.

          Once they saw the change in me. They said what? Icemans for Christ?
          All those worldy friends left. Then I realized who my true friends were. You see the greatest friend I have is Jesus the Christ and I wanted everyone to know. So when I told everybody… friends, family and anybody willing to listen. They thought I was nuts.

          So as you can see I am proof that God can turn a worldly cold heart and melt it. Once melted God can use that and mold it to His desire. So I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. I am not ashamed of using Iceman4Christ! Whether I use it in school, my flag football team, in the Marines, Work, or Online. I am not ashamed of it.

          Its funny though. Worldy people mock it and some Christians question it. Its ok.:)

          Its my name and it means a lot to me. Its my keepsake From Jesus! 😀

          • Heather

            iceman4christ- Amen! When I read the comments from mrh about NO mortal bodies going into the Millennium, instantly Isaiah 65:20 came to mind.
            Also there is; Revelation 20:7-9
            7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
            8 And shall go out to deceive the nations, which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number whom is of the sand of the sea.
            9 And they went up on thbreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

            So if all God’s people who go into the 1000 year Millennium have immortal bodies and there are no new babies being born, then you have Satan gathering immortals to fight against their own!?!?

            This is a perfect example of those who hold the views of mid and post tribulation raptures. Certain verses just don’t fit into those theories and somehow they try to make them fit against God’s Word!

          • This is for Heather and the post 08-05-15 11:41am. Hi. Those are the two passages that came to my mind too. However, I actually hold to a post-Tribulation rapture. In reading through lots of the posts (don’t think I’m gonna get through them all!) I think part of the problem is that there is too much thinking that implies that all people on the opposite side +HAVE+ to think a certain way and if both sides go at it hammer and tongs with those same assumptions, especially if they are flawed and alternatives haven’t been considered, then we get the situation we have on this issue where there appear to be two positions and both can ‘prove’ the other wrong by using the particular logic of those false assumptions. So let’s look at a few assumptions here. Instead of drawing inferences from random bible verses here and there, let’s consider what Jesus actually said when he talked about the Tribulation of the last days. Firstly he said that no-one would be left alive except those days of tribulation be cut short, but those days would be cut short for the sake of God’s elect (this is where Paul got his teaching that only those who are alive and are left would be raptured alive at Jesus’ return from). So, if he cuts them short for the sake of the elect, that means that some of the non-elect will be spared too, and will be alive, but not resurrected, in the Millennium. Yes, at Armageddon Christ destroys the opposing armies and punishes nations, but it never says, contrary to many of the assumptions made here, that all of the non-elect are wiped out. Also, Matthew 25 teaches that at the judgement seat, peoples will be judged specifically on how they treated persecuted / impoverished Christians (the only other time in Matthew’s gospel where Jesus calls people his ‘brothers’ is when he defines his brothers as any disciple who follows him). Also, in Matthew’s gospel, Jesus taught that those who gave aid to a disciple gain a disciple’s reward. Remember, in Matthew 25, at the throne Jesus says that some go to eternal life, others to destruction, and the basis is never whether they have said a sinners prayer or accepted Jesus, but what they have done with Jesus’ people, his body. I know that will set the theological cat amongst many evangelical pigeons, but we are called to be true to the teaching of Jesus and the New Testament, not to any particular evangelical interpretation of it. Go look up what I have said using word search on, say, biblegateway.com and consider the verses I have mentioned.

  • MRH

    “Mark Hodge, it seems as if you have studied a bit? You are getting closer to the truth all the time. Keep it up. I’m proud of you.
    Now I would like for you to understand a simple thing or two, if you so chose to. At least study these things and draw your own conclusion. Or better yet let God guide you to his truth.”

    @Ron Murphy: None know the end time score but God and the angels, which includes Satan and clan? Being the case, are you a wheat or tare? I only know my friends or enemies by their fruits! But such can be an elusive game, with many variables!

    • Ron Murphy

      Mark, then judge accordingly! Study those verses, and then you decide. It’s only Bible, clearly written. It won’t hurt you, and if it does, it will make you stronger. I will add nothing. Either you are God’s or you aren’t. Discern.

      • MRH

        “Luke 21:36 is referring to Luke 21:26, these things are those things. Rapture and tribulation are over when those things come. It is the wrath of the Lamb, to them, Rev 6:17, because they seen him in the clouds coming to gather his elect.”

        @Ron Murphy: That’s what I’ve been trying to explain in vain 😥 Pre-tribbers connect tribulation and wrath as all of the tribulation. Then you have others whom deny the rapture period. And yet scripture clearly states a rapture to occur just before the end begins, which means after tribulation. Finally post-tribbers understand the timing and dividing factor, but think that the church will suffer the beast and his mark. And on this latter aspect, I have to disagree. Why? Because of when it’s enforced, during the second beasts reign. The tribulation ends the first beasts reign, followed by rapture. So the second beast is the man of sin, not the first beast. Why? Because the first beast is the precursor, and destroyer of the church. And the church must be removed for Lucifer to be revealed. Why? Because we aren’t appointed to wrath, but to salvation. And Lucifer is bringing wrath to the world, knowing his time is short.

  • Ron Murphy

    7th Trumpet? No, it is not the rapture, nor is it immediately after tribulation. The rapture is after tribulation and God’s wrath starts at that time, just after the rapture. People get things mixed up, with all the timing of scripture. To begin with only 3 1/2 years of tribulation is all that exist, not a week more. Jesus told us this in Matthew 24:15,21. Study with Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:30-31. It is in the middle of the treaty, that the antichrist has wrath against the holy covenant and does this abomination in the temple of God. Once tribulation has expired, Jesus appears in the clouds, every eyes seeing him. This is the resurrection and rapture of all saints that have died for Christ. This is the elect. When the elect are removed, then comes God’s wrath upon the world. This is the thief in the night. Not getting in the ark, now, it’s rain fire. We are seen in heaven just after this resurrection gathering, in Rev 7:9-17 & Rev 15:2-3. As we are in heaven, God his sending down his wrath, Rev 8:1-2 & Rev 15:8, 16:1-21. We return with Christ at the 6th plague of this wrath, Rev 9:16 & Rev 16:16. Zechariah 14:4-5, Rev 17:14.

    So what was Paul calling the last trumpet? He was calling the last for the Gentile fulfillment. For when Jesus appears at the end of tribulation, the fulfillment of that Gentile time is over, Luke 21:20,24. At this time the Jewish remnant(144K) are saved and eyes finally opened, Romans 11:25. Even John did not know of the 7 trumpets of God’s wrath before the vision came to him in 90 A.D. Paul was long dead and his soul in heaven, long before then. If Paul had know the visions of Revelation, then truly Paul, being the scholar that he was, would of wrote of it. This vision was to John, the meekest of the Apostles.

  • amigodana

    THERE IS NO RAPTURE, BUT, IF YOU WON’T TO ARGUE WITH GOD. HERE YOU GO;

    (Matthew 13:30) “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

    (Matthew 13:40) “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.”

    Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.

    Psalms 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

    Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

    Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    (2 Peter 3:10) “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

    Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

    Proverbs 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
    Proverbs 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

    (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

    Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

    Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    I personally want to be “CHANGED” from this sinful garment (sinful flesh) to what ever it is that God has in store for me.

    (1 Corinthians 15:51) “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,”

    (1 John 3:2-3) “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. {3} And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

    You just won’t listen to God, you are still in your sinful flesh. And that sin will be judged! But when the time comes, if you choose Jesus over your sin, you will walk through His fire and REMAIN here in the new world.

    (Isaiah 43:2) “When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.”

    (Daniel 3:25) “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

    • amigodana

      Its your sin that is telling you that your sin won’t be judged.

      (Isaiah 14:13-15) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

      (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: {4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

    • Ron Murphy

      There is a heavenly gathering of saints, the one that are martyred or suffer, greatly. It doesn’t matter what it’s called. Any body saying other wise is a false prophet. The saint are seen standing on the sea of glass, Rev 15:2-3. The sea of glass is in heaven, Rev 4:6

      Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

      amigodana, you need to be quiet. You are making yourself look bad, preaching false doctrine.

      • amigodana

        That was scripture!! You want me to stop sharing scripture, WOW!!!

      • amigodana

        Yes, there is a gathering, at the same time.

        John 5:28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,”

        John 5:29 “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

        • Ron Murphy

          amigodana, John 5:28-29 is not speaking of the first resurrection. It is speaking of the last. No lost soul will take part in the first resurrection on which the second death has no power. You are so far away and yet you refuse to listen. If you would learn and open your mind, I could help you. But as others are here, you are here to teach and teachers don’t make good students. After all, they have already been taught.

          • amigodana

            THERE IS NO RAPTURE, BUT, IF YOU WON’T TO ARGUE WITH GOD. HERE YOU GO;

            (Matthew 13:30) “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

            (Matthew 13:40) “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.”

            Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.

            Psalms 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

            Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

            Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

            Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

            (2 Peter 3:10) “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

            Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

            Proverbs 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
            Proverbs 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

            (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

            Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

            Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

            Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

            I personally want to be “CHANGED” from this sinful garment (sinful flesh) to what ever it is that God has in store for me.

            (1 Corinthians 15:51) “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,”

            (1 John 3:2-3) “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. {3} And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

            You just won’t listen to God, you are still in your sinful flesh. And that sin will be judged! But when the time comes, if you choose Jesus over your sin, you will walk through His fire and REMAIN here in the new world.

            (Isaiah 43:2) “When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.”

            (Daniel 3:25) “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

            Its your sin that is telling you that your sin won’t be judged.

            (Isaiah 14:13-15) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

            (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: {4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

      • MRH

        “There is a heavenly gathering of saints, the one that are martyred or suffer, greatly

        @Ron Murphy: All active believers suffer persecution, as nature of the faith. Whether it be mocking or murder doesn’t matter, it’s all the same. Even unbelievers suffer tribulation, and persecution. In fact being hounded by the IRS is a form of general persecution. Or dealing with government garbage, such as banning of prayer in schools. Enforced; Islam, LGBT stuff, Obamacare, abortion, drugs, etc. All this stuff equals persecution unto one or more parties 🙁

        • Ron Murphy

          You are wrong, Mark, it does matter. But I refuse to argue with you. It’s pointless.

          • MRH

            Of course Ron, as you know-it-all 😉

      • amigodana

        There is scripture for people who dont want to hear the law of the Lord like you;

        (Isaiah 30:9-10) “That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: {10} Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:”

        “Be quiet amigodana, I don’t want to hear the Word of God! I only want to hear smooth things!”

  • Thomas Haskew

    The rapture “really.” I grew up Baptist and shouted this doctrine from the roof tops but after being involved in the messianic movement the pre-trib rapture doctrine does not hold water. we are grafted in to the olive tree and have become fellow citizens of the common wealth of Israel.Eph.2:11&3:5,6. the time of Jacobs trouble includes us(Jews southern kingdom gentiles northern kingdom.) Romans 11, jer.11. also read Amos chp.9. Christians call it the secret rapture. Amos 3:7 says God does nothing without revealing his secrets to His servants the prophets. in the prophets they reveal the Greater Exodus! The Messiah will gather the outcast of Israel. I believe He will fulfill the fall festivals in one season just as He did the spring festivals(Passover, unleavened bread,first fruits and Pentecost.) what I listed is just the tip of the iceberg.

    • Iceman4Christ

      Seriously!?

      Not all Messianic Congregations believe as you do! They to debate about the same thing.

      Though I do agree with this statement of yours.

      “The Messiah will gather the outcast of Israel. I believe He will fulfill the fall festivals in one season just as He did the spring festivals(Passover, unleavened bread,first fruits and Pentecost.)”

      Me personally can’t wait for Rosh Hashanah! Its a shimitah year my friend. lets see what the next 7 yrs brings. 🙂

  • MRH

    Did you even bother to read that long post I painstakingly wrote to you? I answered everyone of your questions or countered everyone of your version of rapture, trib and the millennium”

    “I thought we were friends. Truly, I tell you I am a Born-Again Believer in the Word of God (WHEAT). I have been born again since I was 16 yrs old”

    @ Iceman4Christ: Yes I did read it, but haven’t had a chance to configure a reply, lots to examine, and I’m slow in ways 😉 Yes we are still friends (I wasn’t quite sure with you), and thank you for explaining the odd nickname factor 🙂

    As for reply factor, I’ll have to copy/paste things into Wordpad editor, as too hard to work with things in this tiny comment box. Even so it may take a good bit of time as much material in both replies to tinker with. Patience is virtue 😉

    P.S. Regarding the Shimitah, Pope Francis is visiting the USA on 9/26/2015 😯
    http://time.com/3588870/pope-francis-philadelphia-visit/

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ MRH

      Yes. It is interesting how the pope will be visiting around the same time frame of Sept 2015. The End of the Shemitah, The Final Blood Moon and possibly an economic collapse of the American economy. If that happens then maybe even possibly Marshall Law. That is why I think the next 7yr cycle could be interesting.

      I always keep an eye on the Pope because I too believe he is and will be the False Prophet of Revelation.

      • MRH

        @ Iceman4Christ: I’m watching them all very closely, as they are all tied into the NWO end time game; Obama, Francis, Putin, Bibi, etc.

        Did you not watch short video SIGNS OF SATAN? It is very revealing! These wicked NWO folk are playing us all for fools, and they have the blind world firmly in their evil grip, even the blind church! 😯

        As to their exact NWO roles I’m not quite sure yet, as the picture is still yet hazy. But I do believe they are all demons in disguise. It is evident in their varied evil games. Plus they all worship Lucifer in secret, and attend occult rituals 😯

        And were you not aware that the new ONE WORLD TRADE CENTER is a disguised Islamic prayer tower, topped by a Muslim minaret broadcast antenna? And that WWW equals 666 in Hebrew alphabet? W is 6th letter!

        And that they cleverly devised and executed 911, and among other strange things? And that terrible future dark agendas lie ahead; NYC nuke tsunami, Hoover Dam bursting? DOOMSDAY IS COMING SOON 😯

        It’s all presently hidden behind occult symbolism, in our money and media stuff. Also much is hidden in varied OT scriptures 😉

        P.S. Well I prepared a big reply unto your big reply, but it wouldn’t post for unknown reasons, so I’ve decided to rather just email it to you instead. But decided to add other newer reply into mix, once I configure things 😉

        Hopefully email idea will work, but might not be till tomorrow, depending on things (research aspect), as it’s getting late here in CA. So just respond by email if a success, or if not notify me on here 💡

  • Ron Murphy

    Tom, the day of the Lord starts at the rapture, just as the wrath of God comes. Joel described the day of the lord as the signs in the sun, moon , and stars. Furthermore the day of the Lord is the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ. not just the day he returns. This 1000 years is also the marriage supper of the lamb, and the wife comes after that supper. Rev 21:2,9-11.

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ Ron Murphy

      Are you a Mid-Trib/Pre-wrath Rapture believer? So far everything I have read from you seems to point that way. You said in an earlier post that the Tribulation is only 3 & 1/2 yrs.

      I’m pretty sure it is a 7 yr biblical cycle. This year will be the end of a 7 yr cycle and then the next 7 yr cycle begins. 69 weeks have already been fulfilled then there is this 2000yr gap or interval in which we are nearing the end and The Tribulation will be Daniels 70th week the last 7yrs of Daniels prophecy.

      So are you saying the Church will go through the first half of the 7yrs. Which is 3 & 1/2 yrs. Then get raptured up and the next 3 & 1/2 years starts the Wrath of God?

      If so, then in which part of these halves does the Man of Sin or Lawless One reveal himself?

    • Ron, you are mixed up. the marriage supper of the lamb is when the
      New Jerusalem comes down from heaven AFTER all these things you
      mention. Try reading Revelation straight through.

  • ANSWERS TO ALL 10 POINTS REFUTING ALL:
    1. Day of The Lord is to be feared by God’s enemies not his friends.
    2. Church that comes w. Jesus is those who died before Second Coming.
    3. Church taken up to IMMEDIATE LOWEST HEAVEN, i.e., the clouds in the sky w. Jesus, to wait there w. Him there until wrath is over, then He
    continues His descent to earth’s surface with us.
    4. Rapture not till Jesus comes back to destroy antichrist, we are not
    appointed to the wrath of God but will have tribulation from the devil.
    5. ALL SEE JESUS, but only believers rise to join Him (which may go
    unnoticed by the terrorized others)thief in the night is the surprise
    factor re the unbelievers.
    6. So what? both elements believers and unbelievers are separated at second coming also this can refer to the Last Judgement.
    7. Judgement Seat of Christ is ONE THOUSAND YEARS AFTER THE SECOND COMING.
    8. 1,000 years of peace is after the judgements on the world at the Second Coming, then there is a revolt later which is put down then the Last Judgement.
    9. So what? the REsurrection of Jesus wasn’t spelled out in the OT either.
    10. The glorified body is PHYSICAL but immortal and indestructible, and this is what the believers have, resurrected and coming back with Jesus or pulled up to Him and transformed, at the Second Coming, and enter the Kingdom with.

  • Heather

    The way I interpret the scriptures in Revelation, to me it shows all 7 years being God’s wrath on an unbelieving wicked generation who are serving Satan because they are against God and anything and anyone that has to do with the Lord Jesus Christ.
    For example Revelation 8 : 12-13
    12 The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun was smitten, and a third part of the moon, and a third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
    13 And I beheld and heard angel flying through the midst of heaven saying with a loud voice, Woe,woe, woe to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
    Compare these verses to Matthew 24 : 29
    29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    This clearly shows God’s wrath INCREASING in the 7 year Tribulation.

    • MRH

      “This clearly shows God’s wrath INCREASING in the 7 year Tribulation”

      @Heather: No, wrath follows tribulation, and is very much worse in all points. Also the tribulation is only approximately 3.5 years, not 7 years long, according to Daniel and Revelation.

      Dan 12:7, 11-12 KJV – And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. … And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.. Rev 13:5 KJV – And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. | This 3.5 year reference is noted also in Revelation 11 & 12, but I’m not certain what the significance is there, so I didn’t include the scriptures.

      Also the 7 ‘warning’ trumpet blasts are not all the tribulation, only the 6th trumpet which ends the 2nd woe and with tribulation. The 7th trumpet shows the saints in heaven, and the beginning of the 3rd woe, which is the wrath period.

      Rev 11:13-15, 18 KJV – And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. … And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

      Note the 3rd woe again below, plus saints in heaven, with Satan cast down.

      Rev 12:9-12 KJV – And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

      P.S. Also note that the mark of the beast doesn’t appear until the 2nd beast reigns, which occurs during wrath (3rd woe). And the 2nd beast is Satan revealed, which the church is not subject to, being in heaven then.

  • Heather

    The Lord showed me something last week. I compare these two different verses to the rapture.

    Revelation 4:1-2

    1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as if it were a trumpet talking with me, which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
    2 And IMMEDIATELY I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    Definition of Immediately.

    1 Without lapse of time. Without delay, instantly, at once:
    2With no object or space intervening:
    3 Closely
    4 Without intervening medium or agent; concerning or affecting directly.

    Corinthians 15:51-53
    51 Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
    52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptable must put on incorruption. And this mortal must put on immortality.

    There is only one book of Revelation. So why are there so many different views OF the book of Revelation and most importantly, of God’s Word? ??

    We are going home SOON and it’s not going to be in the middle of the tribulation or at the end of tribulation! Allow the Lord to lead you in his Word, thus annointing you with eye salve to SEE!

    • MRH

      “The Lord showed me something last week. I compare these two different verses to the rapture. Revelation 4:1-2”

      @Heather: The below Rev 4:1 may hint at rapture, but ‘hereafter’ doesn’t imply after the rapture, but rather after Johns time. Of which encompasses post bible history. Consider first this scripture below.

      Rev 1:1, 19 KJV – The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: … Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

      Rev 4:1-2 KJV – After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

      P.S. We are living in the; churches, seals, and trumpet days. And has been the case for many long years. Paul calls such the ‘last days’, which are filled with turmoil. Jesus calls them ‘sorrows’. As to where on the timeline I’m not certain, but I think we are close to the edge. The many beasts occupy thrones, and are building the dark kingdom. Open your eyes!

  • Heather, you’ve made a good start in sorting things out by reading
    Scripture instead of what people say about it. Now keep going.

  • Heather

    Concerning the Judgement Seat of Christ;

    When Will It Happen?

    The Judgment Seat of Christ is reserved for the judgment of Christians only–born again believers in Christ Jesus. If a person is unsaved and dies in sin, he will be judged at the Great White Throne judgment following Christ’s millennial reign on earth.

    Many times the Judgment Seat of Christ is referred to by Biblical scholars as “The Bema Seat”. The reason for this is that the phrase “judgment seat” is taken from one Greek word, “bema” which translated from Greek means “judgment seat”. During the time of Christ, this word could refer to the platform on which a ruler or judge decided if a person was guilty of a crime. But in light of Paul’s many references to athletic competition in the New Testament, he was likely using the term as it applied to Greek sports. If the winner of a particular contest had followed the rules of competition and won, he was honored at the bema. There he was crowned with a laurel wreath.

    In the city of Corinth, a stone platform was constructed to support the Bema seat (judgment seat) of the local officials. The seat was used to give out awards to athletes for their competitive performances (usually a crown wreath of leaves), but also to address legal charges brought against individuals. The great Apostle Paul was quite familiar with this seat. This is where he was brought before Gallio, who was the proconsul of Achaia at the Bema seat (Acts 18:12). This seat was also what Paul referred to in 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 as the “Judgment Seat of Christ”. In this context, Paul explains to us that this is where the Christian will receive an evaluation for works done in the body, whether good or bad.

    2 Corinthians 5:9-10
    9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

    Note: In this second verse, the Greek word that is translated into English as “bad” is probably better understood as “worthless” or “useless to God’s kingdom”. (See 1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

    When Will It Happen

    The Judgment of believers will occur immediately following the rapture. The timing of the Judgment Seat of Christ is given in the following scriptures:

    In Luke 14:12-14, reward is associated with the resurrection. The rapture is when the church is resurrected. The term Church refers to believers.

    Luke 14:12-14
    12 Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

    In Revelation 19:8, when the Lord returns with His bride at the end of the tribulation, she is seen already rewarded. Her reward is described as fine linen, the righteous acts of the saints undoubtedly the result of rewards.

    Revelation 19:8
    8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

    In 2 Timothy 4:8 and 1 Corinthians 4:5, rewards are associated with “that day” and with the Lord’s coming. Again, for the church this means the rapture.

    2 Timothy 4:8
    8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

    1 Corinthians 4:5
    5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

    So the order of events will be:

    The rapture which includes our glorification/resurrection bodies
    Exaltation into the heavens with the Lord
    Examination before the Bema
    Compensation or reward

    We Are Not Judged For Sin

    Although it is tremendously serious with eternal ramifications, the Judgment Seat of Christ is not a place or time when the Lord will mete out punishment for sins committed by a child of God. Rather, it is a place where rewards will be given, or lost, depending on how one has conducted his life for the Lord.

    It is important to emphasize that the Judgment Seat of Christ does not determine salvation; that was determined by Christ’s sacrifice on behalf of the blood bought believer (1 John 2:2), and the believer’s faith in Him (John 3:16). All confessed sins are forgiven and believers will never be condemned for them (Romans 8:1). To say otherwise would deny the completeness of the death of Jesus Christ, and nullify God’s promise that “their sins and iniquities will I remember no more” (Hebrews 10:17).

    Instead, the purpose of this bema judgment by Jesus Christ is to reward believers based on how faithfully they served Him (1 Corinthians 9:4-27, 2 Timothy 2:5). Even so, this judgment will also deal with a loss of rewards. Again, Paul tells us, in his letter to the Corinthians, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” The Greek word translated as “bad” in this phrase, is based upon the Greek word Phaulos. according to Strong’s dictionary (#5337), the primary definition of Phaulos is “easy, slight, ordinary, mean, worthless, of no account.”

    1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says that: “12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”

    We see in Revelation 4:4 and 4:10-11

    4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT; AND THEY HAD ON THEIR HEADS CROWNS OF GOLD.

    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, AND CAST THEIR CROWNS BEFORE THE THRONE, saying,

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
    Revelation 5:8-14

    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and
    golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 AND HAST MADE US UNTO OUR GOD, KINGS AND PRIEST: AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.

    11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    The twenty four elders are seen with crowns of gold and dressed in white raiment before Jesus begins to open the Seals. Wouldn’t they had to have appeared before the Judgement Seat of Christ to have received these rewards?

  • MRH

    “When I read the comments from mrh about NO mortal bodies going into the Millennium, instantly Isaiah 65:20 came to mind.
    Also there is; Revelation 20:7-9”

    “So if all God’s people who go into the 1000 year Millennium have immortal bodies and there are no new babies being born, then you have Satan gathering immortals to fight against their own!?!?”

    @Heather: Before the millennium is the wrath, and after rapture all die, whether as martyrs or fodder for the fire. And remember that Revelation 20:7-9 is post millennium, and 2nd resurrection, followed by the GWT. You can’t compare apples to oranges. Those in 1st resurrection are immortalized. Those in 2nd resurrection are not immortalized. Which means they can die twice. But sadly scripture doesn’t detail much with before and after millennium topics 😥

    Consider below passage regarding 1st resurrection 🙂

    Luk 20:28-36 KJV – Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man’s brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife. And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    • Heather, all don’t die. some will still be alive who are believers and taken up transformed into their PHYSICAL resurrection bodies which are PHYSICAL but immortal and indestructible. the second death is separation from God into whatever punishment God considers appropriate for each one of them.

      There will be some who did not accept the antichrist, and who are not Christians, but rejected him for their own reasons. These are probably the ones that will be ruled over by Christians, and who will reproduce.

      • MRH

        @Christine Erikson: Christians can’t be damned, only non-Christians. As to the latter groups fate, the bible doesn’t say that all are destroyed. Also after the resurrection is complete, there is no more procreation. There won’t be any need, as death will be destroyed 😀

        1Co 15:26, 45, 49, 51, 53 KJV – The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. … And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. … And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. … Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

        FYI The only reason God installed procreation, was to build his holy kingdom. And with death and birth present, his kingdom will be huge, though yet unseen. Also Satan’s kingdom, will be even bigger, but God pulls many out of it by the end. Consider following scripture 💡

        Rev 7:9, 14 KJV – After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; … And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

        So whom are the tribulation saints above? The few saints whom survive coming tribulation effect, or all of the saints throughout church history, including those of today, and of the future until rapture? Think about it 💡 😉

        BTW The martyrs are not included, as they are in their own group. Those future saints whom reject the beast and his ‘slavery’ mark 😉

        Rev 15:1-2 KJV – And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

        Question: Do you not understand that much bible prophecy is of symbolic language?

        P.S. I know much more than you think I know, but most folk are still too blind to see the dark truth, and I’m talking about Christians 😥

        • “Christians can’t be damned only non Christians.” let’s put it this way, if you a Christian worship the antichrist you stop being a Christian. you get damned. And that’s not the only way.

          Parable of the Sower people who received the word of the Gospel with gladness but fell away from persecution or the word was choked by riches deceiving them or cares of life and bore no fruit.

          Sermon to the Apostles at the Last Supper if a vine segment bears no fruit it is cut out and burned.

          Last Judgement scene people are calling Him Lord but cast out for not helping the poor in front of them.

          Last Judgement Scene people are calling Him Lord and reminding Him they did great works and cast out demons in His Name but He says to depart from Him because He never knew them.

          parable of bad servant who, figuring his master delays his return and he, the bad servant, has time to act up and get away with it get his life in order before inspection, gets drunk and abusive to the fellow servants he was supposed to direct and feed, will get cut in pieces and thrown in the outer darkness.

          you can argue they aren’t “really” Christians, but no one would know that from the label on them and church attendance in some cases not to mention doing signs and wonders and casting out demons (the charismatic crew is likely to produce such most of their leaders will probably be such).

          Sure no one can SNATCH or TAKE you by force out of Jesus’ hand, but you can certainly jump out on your own or by the leading of someone or because of fear or physical danger (persecution). We must be loyal unto death and Jesus will give us the crown of life.

          • MRH

            “let’s put it this way, if you a Christian worship the antichrist you stop being a Christian. you get damned. And that’s not the only way”

            @Christine Erikson: No true Christian worships Satan! And to worship the AC or FP one must worship the world which equals Satan? Are you still confused unto my biblical offerings?

            Rom 2:3-4 KJV – And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

            P.S. The only way to deny Christ, is to never have accepted him (antichrist). Consider following bible facts 💡

            1Jo 4:1-7 KJV – Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

          • “MRH says:

            May 9, 2015 at 2:37 am

            “let’s put it this way, if you a Christian worship the antichrist you stop being a Christian. you get damned. And that’s not the only way”

            @Christine Erikson: No true Christian worships Satan! And to worship the AC or FP one must worship the world which equals Satan? Are you still confused unto my biblical offerings?”

            the usual Calvinist caveat that if you get damned you
            were never saved in the first place. What do you think all the effort to correct flaws in us in Jesus’ warnings about watchfulness and the Apostolic Epistles are supposed to help us do? CORRECT IN US WHAT MIGHT LEAD TO OUR APOSTASY! The Parable of the Sower describes people who ACCEPT THE GOSPEL WITH GLADNESS but fall away
            because of persecution, or deception of riches or cares of this world. The WERE Christian but became otherwise.

            your biblical offerings are confused. #10 is flat out insane raving we get a glorified body in the Rapture that is demoted to a mere earthly one the millennial kingdom? GET ON MEDICATION.

            HERE IS WHAT THE BIBLE, not you, SAYS ON THE TEN POINTS.
            reposted from elsewhere this got discussed.

            #1 everywhere in OT prophecy you find reference to the Day of the Lord it is about judgement against
            His enemies including nominal Jews of the time and nominal Christians in rebellion. The
            Second coming will be happiness for the believers and terror for the unbelievers.

            Matt. 24:30,31 for starters.

            # I Cor. 15:51 I thess. 3:13

            #3 the only solution that makes all available information together, 2 Thess. 2:18 Jesus
            will destroy the antichrist with the brightness of His coming back
            Matt. 24:26-34 note last two
            verses relates to ALL events preceding the Second Coming being going on at once in one
            generation or less, THAT is the generation that will live to see Him come back.

            #4 Daniel 7:21, 22 Matt. 24:29, 30 2 Thess. chapter two Jesus Christ WILL NOT COME BACK, AT
            ALL, UNTIL
            AFTER THE ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED, AND HE COMES BACK TO DESTROY THE
            ANTICHRIST vss. 2-4, 8 apparently someone had worried the Thessalonians with talk of a
            secret rapture they had missed and Paul denies any such thing will happen.

            #5 Matt. 24:30, 31

            #6 believers and unbelievers separated at rapture of believers out of the way of wrath on unbelievers,
            and at the Last Judgement there is separation also. previous verses and various parables of
            judgement by returning boss in Gospels and explicit description of separation of goats and sheep
            evil doers and righteous by Jesus
            INCLUDING BELIEVERS WHO DID EVIL GET PUNISHED AND SOME CAST OUT
            INTO OUTER DARKNESS WITH UNBELIEVERS.

            Matt. 24:43-51 matt. 25:1-30 Matt. 25:31-36 Luke 12:47, 48
            Matt. 18:21-35

            Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)

            21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

            22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

            23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

            #7 Rev. 20:3, 7-12

            3:49 PM
            Delete
            Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said…

            #8 the time frame for God’s wrath given the patterns of the past in OT is not likely more than
            several months, since this DIRECT SUPERNATURAL action, not action through human agents.
            The PURPOSE of the “rapture” or “catching up” is to both greet the returning King Jesus, a routine
            action in ancient times, but to get us out of the way of divine wrath. famine takes too long to
            develop.
            After the wrath Jesus brings us with Him the rest of the way down to earth and begins ruling earth with us.
            Rev. chapters 19, 20, 21.

            #9 self explanatory
            #10 “#10: At the Rapture, believers are given a glorified body, at the Second Coming they
            remain in earthly bodies as they enter the Millennial Kingdom.”

            re reading this it is even more insane than the usual pretrib ravings.
            apparently you get a glorified body in the rapture, and then demoted to a mere earthly body in
            the millennial kingdom. The writer of these ten points needs to get on meds.

            aside from that, the glorified or spiritual body is NOT called ethereal or non material, but some
            kind of new immortal indestructible kind of physicality LIKE JESUS’ BODY AT
            THE RESURRECTION. Or do you think it was not physical? a mere
            spirit body ethereal and non material is NOT A RESURRECTION but a mere haunting, a fraud.

            WE ARE PROMISED PHYSICAL RESURRECTION. the immortal indestructible bodies are given
            to all, believers and unbelievers at the second resurrection, JESUS HAS ABOLISHED DEATH to be fulfilled later,

            the issue of “salvation” from damnation is, not whether you get resurrected or not, that is a given
            but IN WHAT CONDITIONS DO YOU LIVE FORVER?

            I Cor. 15:51 Phil. 3:20, 21 “Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned unto His
            glorious body….” Luke 24:35-43
            “handle Me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye
            see Me have.” Jesus after the Resurrection.

      • Heather

        Yes I agree with you Christine. I was responding in reference to what MRH had said to iceman4christ about there being no one to repopulate and no marraiges in the Millennium.
        It is interesting the way you have put it.
        God bless you sister!

      • Iceman4Christ

        The ones that go into the millennium are the sheep/wheat that God separates from the goats/tares. These are people who survived through the Tribulation and are mortal. These mortal people are believers. They will enter Gods Millennium Kingdom and populate the earth once more until the end of the 1000yr reign of Jesus the Christ.
        The raptured Saints (The Church) with there immortal glorified bodies will govern over them during the Millennium.

  • john becker

    the sun being darkened is from the oil fires blocking the suns light and the moon is a relection of that sun also……….stars falling from heaven is due to ice blocks the weight of a talant or 30 lbs glistening from the suns rays falling to the ground from the weather changes caused by nuclear bombs going off. THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS WILL READ LIKE THE DAILY NEWSPAPER TO US MODERN DAY PEOPLE AND IF WE DON’T KNOW THE WORD FROM THE BIBLE……………WE WILL BE UNAWARE OF PROPHECY BEING FULLFILLED. IT WILL CATCH PEOPLE LIKE A THEIF IN THE NIGHT. BE WISE AS A SERPENT BUT HARMLESS AS DOVES. WW3 IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER.

    • MRH

      Joe 2:30-31 KJV – And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

      I believe this could be a reference to mushroom clouds and nuclear war. Which of course would darken the sky at least locally. Which means that the tribulation will involve nuclear bombs. Also the wrath will have same, except it will be global war and chaos.. WWIII 😯

      P.S. Such stuff has long been predicted on US currency and in varied media, also 911 and other past dark events 😉

      • amigodana

        You have been reading the late great planet earth instead of the Bible!

        How about trusting God!

        (Mark 9:49) “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.”

        (Jeremiah 23:29) “Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?”

        I guess if EVERYONE shall be salted with fire, then that negates your easy breezy escape scheme!

        • MRH

          “You have been reading the late great planet earth instead of the Bible!”

          Nope, just common logic 😉 The bible must match the real world 😉

          P.S. Obviously figures of speech and symbolism escapes you? 🙁

          • amigodana

            Yep, I believe GOD!!!

            (John 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

            (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

            (John 3:12-13) “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? {13} And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

            You are the one who does not believe GOD!!

          • amigodana

            By the way, How did you know which book I was talking about if you didn’t read it?

          • MRH

            Because I heard of the book, though don’t know it’s details. Also you named the book, so how could I not have known? And you must be an impostor, as good Christians don’t ignorantly accuse others like you seem to enjoy doing 🙁

  • MRH

    Folks: The below passage does not regard the millennium as commonly taught 🙄

    Isa 65:17-25 KJV – For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

    Isa 66:22-24 KJV – For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Honestly I admit I can’t explain above passages, but possibly metaphors of some unknown kind? As if taken literally, they contradict every other similar scripture in the bible. For if death and hell are destroyed by final judgment, how then can there be death in paradise? Compare with below NT scripture 💡

    Rev 21:1-8 KJV – And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and who**mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Rev 21:10, 22-27 KJV – And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, … And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    P.S. I don’t have all the answers, no one but God does. However if people can’t spot the obvious discrepancies between the Isaiah and Revelation passages, then I can’t help them. But for certain if paradise still has death, how can it be paradise? God might as well just keep this old place, and refurbish it. No point creating a new universe which is still imperfect is there?

  • Heather

    Matthew 24 :22 And except those days should be shortened, there should be no flesh saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
    Jesus is concerned for a remnant of flesh to be saved for a reason.

    • MRH

      The tribulation will indeed be short, approx. 3.5 years, and will involve nuclear war effect in Israel. The stage for it is already being set, with Iran and it’s elusive nuclear program. But nothing can happen until peace plan prevails. And that might be soon, as per Pope Francis USA visit 9/26/2015.

  • Heather

    Years ago, the very first time I read thru Revelation to the end, I found myself shocked and stunned right near the end of it. I started crying, lol, saying, “Lord why? We have to go through it again with that wicked Satan? I don’t understand, why Lord?” Big tears streaming with frustration. I understand a little more now, “why”. But I certainly didn’t when I first read it.

    Many Churches never preach on Revelation. Most won’t touch it with a 10 ft poll. I always assumed once Jesus returned, that would be the end of Satan period, because I had not read Revelation yet for myself. Yes, he will be chained up in the pit for 1000 years, but then the Lord will let him loose for a short time before he is destoyed for good.

  • MRH

    Revelation concerns end times stuff, but it is a book of symbols, which are hard to interpret. It’s not meant for the novice bible student, which is why most churches don’t preach it. It only confuses most readers, which is not a good teaching plan. And nor is it required for salvation, which is crucial to the Christianity game.

    But Revelation and other prophecies do serve a purpose, and that is knowledge into the biblical unknown. Tools for watching prophesies develop, but most folk fail the watcher game. Wrongly interpreting the many visions and dreams, and thus inadvertently leading others astray. And we all are guilty of such, as prophecy study is not cut and dried.

    The angel told Daniel such madness would occur.. Dan 12:4, 9 KJV – But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. … And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Lexicon :: Strong’s H7751 – shuwt (to and fro) = to go, go or rove about, go to and fro

    Lexicon :: Strong’s H1847 – da`ath (knowledge) = knowledge, perception, skill, discernment, understanding, wisdom

    P.S. Basically the biblical debate will continue to rage until Christ returns 🙁

  • amigodana

    If you believe God MRH, then do you believe these scriptures?

    (Matthew 13:30) “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

    (Matthew 13:40) “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.”

    Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.

    Psalms 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

    Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

    Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    (2 Peter 3:10) “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

    Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

    Proverbs 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
    Proverbs 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

    (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

    Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

    Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    I personally want to be “CHANGED” from this sinful garment (sinful flesh) to what ever it is that God has in store for me.

    (1 Corinthians 15:51) “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,”

    (1 John 3:2-3) “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. {3} And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

    You just won’t listen to God, you are still in your sinful flesh. And that sin will be judged! But when the time comes, if you choose Jesus over your sin, you will walk through His fire and REMAIN here in the new world.

    (Isaiah 43:2) “When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.”

    (Daniel 3:25) “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

    After all, its God who says;

    (Mark 9:49) “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.”

    (Jeremiah 23:29) “Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?”

    I guess if EVERYONE shall be salted with fire, then that negates your easy breezy escape scheme!

    Its your sin that is telling you that your sin won’t be judged.

    (Isaiah 14:13-15) “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

    (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: {4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

    • MRH

      Of course I believe those scriptures and many more, in fact the whole bible 😀

      But I don’t necessarily believe the interpretations of others like yourself 😡

      P.S. I’m a Christian you do know (?), and as thus a believer in Gods holy word 😉

      • amigodana

        I didn’t give ANY interpretations, those are strictly Gods Word. And He is saying it very clearly.

        NO RAPTURE!!!!

        You can label yourself what ever you want. Your fruit says otherwise.

        • I don’t see where you get NO rapture, just no pretribulation rapture, its not escape from the antichrist just greeting Christ in midair to accompany Him to earth, just like in ancient times people would go out to greet and accompany their ruler coming back from a trip. and to get us out of the way of the destruction being poured out. the word in greek is harpazo.

      • amigodana

        Quote; “P.S. Christians today need not fear the future, as we are saved and sealed unto eternity. We are all children of God, no matter our biblical battle factor. The latter is all part of holy game, as we are all striving towards knowledge.”

        Its people like you who tickle peoples ears and tell them that they don’t have to take responsibility for their sins.

        (Proverbs 1:7) “¶ The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”

        YOU DON’T BELIEVE GOD!!!!

      • MRH

        Well seems you missed something very important.. the rapture passage 😀

        1Th 4:16-17 KJV – For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

        Lexicon :: Strong’s G726 – harpazō (caught up) = to snatch out or away

        Lexicon :: Strong’s G109 – aēr (air) = the atmospheric region

        P.S. I’m sorry you can’t see the obvious. The modern term ‘rapture’ is from a Latin word, and so obviously not in the bible, as the bible was not written in Latin.

        • amigodana

          What a hypocrite. You accuse me of interpreting, yet it is you that is using private interpretations. I thought you said that you interpret scripture according to the rest of scripture.

          (2 Peter 1:21) “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

          (Genesis 40:8) “And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.”

          “Do not interpretations belong to God?”

          • MRH

            Are you inferring my usage of Strongs Lexicon? If so, then your a fool, as such a tool is used by many bible students and scholars. And FYI the word ‘hell’ in the KJV is often wrongly translated.

            Act 2:31 KJV – He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

            Lexicon :: Strong’s G86 – hadēs (hell) = the grave, death, hell

      • MRH

        “Its people like you who tickle peoples ears and tell them that they don’t have to take responsibility for their sins”

        You obvious don’t know the bible as well as you claim to, or you’re just toying with me? 😡

        2Co 1:22 KJV – Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

        Eph 1:13 KJV – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

        Eph 4:30 KJV – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

        Lexicon :: Strong’s G4972 – sphragizō (sealed) = for security: from Satan

        P.S. You can deny OSAS or ‘Eternal Security’ all you want, but the bible clearly refutes your silly argument 😀

        • amigodana

          (Proverbs 1:7) “¶ The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”

        • amigodana

          I am sorry that it is making you mad. You need to realize that its Gods word that is judging, not mine. All I have done was show you in the Word how your words are contradictory to God’s Word.

          My words are contrary to Gods Word as well and this is what makes each one of us sinners.

          But I don’t think you fully understand why God IS the word yet. But you will!!!

  • amigodana

    Quote; “Are you inferring my usage of Strongs Lexicon? If so, then your a fool, as such a tool is used by many bible students and scholars. And FYI the word ‘hell’ in the KJV is often wrongly translated.”

    Out of your own mouth, you don’t believe God! You trust mans words over God’s.

    (Jeremiah 17:5) “¶ Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.”

    “¶ Thus saith the LORD;”

    • amigodana

      You called me a fool, yet you think that you will be raptured. Even if there was one!

      (Matthew 5:22) “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”

      “but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”

  • amigodana

    This is what God say’s;

    (1 Peter 4:12-13) “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: {13} But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”

    (Mark 9:49) “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.”

    “For every one shall be salted with fire”

    There is NO RAPTURE!!!!

  • Iceman4Christ

    @ Am.I.god.Ana>/b>

    If there is no rapture, how do you explain each and every one of these Scriptures?

    Psalm 27:5

    Psa 27:5

    For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me; He shall set me up upon a Rock.

    Zeph 2:3

    Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.

    If The LORD is coming to punish then why are we hiding in our chambers with the Door shut in this next scripture?

    Isa 26:19-21

    Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    After The LORD has punished the earth, Why are we now coming out of those same Chambers from Isaiah 26:19-21 with the Bridegroom and called the Bride in this scripture?

    Joel 2:16

    Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the Bridegroom go forth of His chamber, and the Bride out of her closet.

    Now can you explain how these are not talking about a rapture? If you can I will stop posting on here and become your disciple! 😀

    • most of it has nothing to do with the rapture or the church, but is about then current events of judgement on Israel and safety for the
      few righteous among them.

      such as might possibly apply to end times have no bearing on separating the rapture from the second coming. If He appears and
      yanks us up AT THE MOMENT JUST BEFORE HE STARTS RAINING DOWN WRATH
      on the rest, then that certainly fits all this also.

      the pre tribulation (pre persecution) rapture is
      false. the post tribulation (post persecution) rapture is what is
      taught by the Bible and you have to twist things and take the
      traditions invented by men as to what is a type of this and if so
      what it signifies on faith.

      you weren’t taught this stuff by the Bible but by INTERPRETERS of
      the Bible, The Bible didn’t say it MEN SAID THAT the Bible said it.

      redo everything. start from scratch.

      and to those who fear persecution, get a backbone and be like the
      early martyrs and the Apostles before them who REJOICED to suffer
      for the sake of Christ and know that if you NEVER GIVE IN you will
      obtain crowns from heaven you would not obtain otherwise. but
      beware of self esteem and self certainty and running to get persecuted avoid it if you can but GLADLY choose torture and death.

      Remember Jesus said that those who seek to save their lives will
      lose them (damnation) and those who lose their lives for Jesus’ sake and for the Gospel’s sake will save them (eternal life).

      and Blessed are you when men persecute you for Jesus’ sake.

      and not to love anyone or anything, even parents or children, more than Jesus. (if the Sikh women could watch their children cut to pieces and not accept Islam in India once, surely we Christians should have – and sometimes have had – the same courage.)

      But I don’t think the antichrist is coming on the scene until AFTER an empire that doesn’t even exist yet has conquered America, Britain, NATO, Russia and China and then he will turn up displacing a triumvirate that is the last to rule it. as for why I think this,

      read all the posts at http://seventhchapterofdaniel.blogspot.com

      WHICH DOESN’T MEAN YOU WON’T FACE PERSECUTION, JUST LIKE IS GOING ON NOW IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND HAS HAPPENED THROUGHOUT THE CENTURIES.

      nothing the antichrist does or threatens can be worse than what was
      done to the Church in the days of Roman persecution. NOTHING.

      so what are you so afraid of?

      • amigodana

        Now wait a min., you say that they are;

        Quote:” you weren’t taught this stuff by the Bible but by INTERPRETERS of the Bible, The Bible didn’t say it MEN SAID THAT the Bible said it.”

        But then you say;

        “read all the posts at http://seventhchapterofdaniel.blogspot.com

        So basically you want to replace their interpreters with your interpreters.

        No where in your post did I see you give any scripture relating to the scripture he presented, only YOUR understanding.

        You sound kind of hypocritical.

        • no I am not replacing their interpreters with my interpreters. go there with your bible open to Daniel 7
          and read the whole chapter, then read the arguments
          based on the chapter. the identity of the four beasts
          and why they are NOT THE STATUE.

          JUDGE FOR YOURSELF, does the interpretation fit the Scripture each verse and historical facts, or not?

          Instead of going verse this verse that, just READ IT.
          notice the angel says these are FOUR KINGDOMS THAT SHALL
          arise, yet if this is the statue rehashed one of the
          kingdoms was already in change, so it should be only three that shall arise.

          Notice that the statue dream ends with the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven which was done when Christ died and came back to life, and there is no mention of judgement, while the four beasts ends with the last beast persecuting the saints until the Ancient of Days comes, and the saints rule, and there is judgement also shown. (telescoped here, spelled out in more detail in Revelation.)

          This is the SECOND COMING. When the Kingdom is brought into power.

          TO BE CORRECT, AN INTERPRETATION MUST NOT LEAVE OUT ANY DETAIL (AND THIS DOESN’T)AND IT MUST NOT RELY ON IRRELEVANT STUFF CHARACTERIZED AS TYPOLOGY OR ALLEGORY AND MUST NOT SPIRITUALIZE WHAT IS OBVIOUSLY LITERAL.

          one detail left out by the usual interpreters, but several are getting wise to this, is that the fourth beast crushes the other three. THEY ARE CONTEMPORANEOUS TO HIM.

          Eagles wings on lion – America symbolized by an eagle, and lion is big deal about Britain Bear – Russia four headed fowl winged leopard – either China or a future Kurdistan.

          The fourth empire doesn’t exist yet and the antichrist will displace a triumvirate ruling it to rule it alone (little horn).

          Details on all this are at the blog, read all entries.

          Britain gave the Balfour Declaration and America has supported Israel, so they are big players in the Middle East, Britain in fact shaped its present borders. Russia is beginning to be a player there in Syria and China backing it in this. They both have a relationship with Iran and to a degree with Assad. This will probably increase to where they are both major permanent presences in the Middle East.

          To be in prophecy you have to be a resident of or major player in the Middle East. That is just a fact you get by reading prophecy. If not there, then just a passing half sentence mention if at all. The Chinese empire was as great as any other, but no mention of it because they were not relevant.

      • Iceman4Christ

        @ Christine Erikson

        So I guess you believe in a post trib position? Is that correct?

        “most of it has nothing to do with the rapture or the church, but is about then current events of judgement on Israel and safety for the
        few righteous among them.” – Christine Erikson

        Your right most of it has to do with the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. The Church is not on earth during Daniels 70th week because it has been taken up and hidden. Yet The Church comes back with Christ at the end. They don’t go through it. The few righteous you speak of are those Tribulation saints that survived this 7yr period and those that did not receive the mark in the end they will believe in God when it all over. They are the Sheep/Wheat that will go into the millennium.

        Also you fail to make a distinction between Israel and The Church.

        The Elect is Israel

        Mar 13:20 – And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

        Mar 13:22 – For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

        Also Paul says it best.

        Rom 11:25 – For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

        Once all gentile believers are redeemed the Church is removed and God goes back to dealing with Israel and sets them back on the path that He chose for them. Starting in the Tribulation.

        I am still waiting for a Post Tribber or Mid Tribber to answer some of my questions.

        2Th 2:7-8 – For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

        1. So I ask you. Who do you think He who know letteth will, until He be taken out of the way is?

        1Co 6:19 – What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

        2. So if God removes the Holy Ghost does that mean the church is without the Holy Ghost at the start of the Tribulation and the Wicked one/Man of Sin/The Lawless One/The AntiChrist is revealed?

        As you have probably figured out. Only once He is removed out of the way can that Wicked One will be revealed.

        3. In which half of the 7yr period will the Man of Sin/Lawless One/Antichrist appear?

        4. Also show me were in the Book of Daniel or in any of the other Old Testament Tribulation prophecies does it say the Church or Bride when its speaks of this 70th week?

        5. Are we (the Church) not the body of Christ?

        6. Didn’t Jesus take “OUR” punishment that we justly deserve on the Cross?

        7. Didn’t Jesus say it is finished?

        8. Or is there another verse were He said this is only partially finish until Daniels 70th week?

        9. So now you want to have the body of Christ (the Church) go through the 7 yr tribulation. Why? So that it can fit into your Post Trib Doctrine? Isn’t that like crucifying The Lord all over again?

        10. Did you forget what Jesus said about the Church or are you calling God a liar?

        Mat 16:18 – And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

        In having a Post Trib position you also agree that the gates of hell is prevailing against the church during the tribulation. You must realize there are 2 distinctive groups here. The Church and the Tribulation Saints.

        In Daniel 7 it says the AntiChrist prevails against the Saints. This is talking about the Tribulation Saints.

        Dan 7:21 – I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and PREVAILED against them;

        Again the Antichirst OVERCOMES the Saints. Just to make this clear this is the Tribulation Saints not the Church.

        Rev 13:7 – And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to OVERCOME them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

        11. If you were a few days away from getting married to your bride or bridgroom. Would you torture them before you got married?

        You know I have studied Post Trib Doctrine. I even watched all of Irvin Baxters End Time videos back in the Late 90’s. Which I received from a Pentecostal Apostolic Church that I was attending to at that time. Guess what? A lot of it was taken out of context and had to many holes in the doctrine.

        Last I checked Gods plan of Salvation does not have holes in it. 😀

        Also answer this for me because you seem to think you have a handle on how these events are going to play out.

        12. How can Jesus come to those unbelievers as a Thief in the Night, if at His Glorious Appearing He reveals Himself to the whole world?

        Jesus said just as lightning shines from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

        It is also written in Rev 1.

        Rev 1:7 – Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

        1Th 5:2-11

        For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

        13. Do you see the contradiction?

        14. If its the same event then how can He come as a Theif to the unbeliever? Then Appear where everyone sees its Him?

        Also notice in verse 3 this takes place at the beginning not the end!

        1 Thes 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

        As you can see at the beginning of the Tribulation they will be saying Peace and Safety because of this 7 yr covenant.

        They won’t escape but guess who does.

        Luke 21:36 – Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

        “WHICH DOESN’T MEAN YOU WON’T FACE PERSECUTION, JUST LIKE IS GOING ON NOW IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND HAS HAPPENED THROUGHOUT THE CENTURIES.

        nothing the antichrist does or threatens can be worse than what was
        done to the Church in the days of Roman persecution. NOTHING.

        so what are you so afraid of?” – Christine Erikson

        This is a most erroneous statement!

        What is coming in the Tribulation will be far worse than anything that has ever happened on earth to man kind. Sure we Christians have been persecuted and have gone through some trial or tribulations.
        Make no mistake these things happening right now are just the birth pangs.
        What’s the worst that you have seen? Have you been to the middle east and seen war? I have. It must be easy for you to say such a nonchalant remark in the comfort of your home in front of a computer screen. The worst that’s probably ever happened to you is trip and fall in public. How would you know what its like in the middle east or what happened during the Roman inquisition? Just because you read about it or watched it on main stream media doesn’t mean you know what you are talking about.

        I am not afraid of dying. I know where I am going. I am afraid for those who do not realize what is coming. I am afraid for family members, friends and many people who are ignorant of what is coming.

        Maybe you have never read these scriptures before.

        Jer 30:7 – Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

        Luk 21:26 – Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

        Just read revelation 6-19 and it tells you how horrible it will be to live in that time. It will be so bad that even God will send them a strong delusion to believe a lie.

        2Th 2:10-11 – And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

        There’s one thing I know about you for sure so far. You are no different than Am.I.god.Ana, MRH and a few others on here who twist the scripture and take it out of context. None of you should be teaching anybody anything. Rather you all should go back and re-examine the scripture and stop trying to teach a doctrine that you learned at your local church. Just because you hear it at your church does not make it true. Rather be a Berean and go search the scriptures to see if what they teach you is true. Your doctrine needs to agree with scripture without having any flaws, contradictions or having any holes you can poke at.

        Please answer my questions Christine. 🙂

        • YES I AM POST TRIB.
          first, it isn’t Jacob’s troubles its the Babylonians. mostly.
          second, your statement on the church during the 70th week is without biblical basis, you just ASSUME it is true because you keep hearing it. or reading it. and you READ IT INTO whatever else you read, and ignore what doesn’t fit.
          the Church is the spiritual and true Israel, but the physical Israel is not cast off Romans chapter 11 deals with this, but there is nothing in any of this that points to them dealing with stuff in our absence. THAT IS READ INTO IT, not read out of it. eisegesis not exegesis.

          and it doesn’t matter, you can distinguish them all you want and it doesn’t make a whit of difference as to post trib rapture.

          Israel is elect at the start, but the elect are also individuals chosen like Paul to kick start the Church and probably at later times, the other converts are not necessarily predestined like the elect. notice Paul talks about us and we and then goes on to you who believed at our preaching in Ephesians chapter 1.

          again ALL OF THIS IS IRRELEVANT, if Jesus says He comes back AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS (which He says) and that He gathers His (that’s His believers) when He does so, then that’s what will happen, and nothing about Israel’s election or anything else can contradict that.

          “1. So I ask you. Who do you think He who know letteth will, until He be taken out of the way is?”

          first and foremost, the Holy Spirit is not limited to the church, Jesus said he will convict the world of sin and so forth so He is in the Church in a special way, but everywhere in another way. so IF this is The Holy Spirit, He won’t be leaving earth whether the Church is raptured before or after the tribulation.

          the belief of Church writers of the first few centuries was that THE ROMAN EMPIRE WAS THE RESTRAINER because the antichrist was called the man of lawlessness. conversely organized govt. is a restrainer. structures that impede the operation of the spirit of antichrist.

          secondly, the phrasing DOES NOT MEAN THE RESTRAINER IS REMOVED, MERELY MOVED ASIDE NO LONGER BLOCKING. still there, just not blocking.

          3. In which half of the 7yr period will the Man of Sin/Lawless One/Antichrist appear?

          If I got it right, he starts out at the start, but begins his persecution in the middle of the 4th year, 3 1/2 years of persecution.

          4. Also show me were in the Book of Daniel or in any of the other Old Testament Tribulation prophecies does it say the Church or Bride when its speaks of this 70th week?

          It doesn’t speak of the Church at all but does refer to Israel as YHWH’s adulterous wife. The “bride” is not the Church so much as the New Jerusalem, and the “bride” analogy is only one of many YOU GUYS HARP ON IT ignoring that the Church is also the pillar and foundation of the truth, an organism, branches of a vine which is Jesus, THE BODY OF CHRIST (so He marries His own body? CLEARLY THESE ANALOGIES ARE NOT EXACT but if your treatment of “bride” is correct then you make Jesus look ridiculous, marrying His own Body!)

          BUT DANIEL CHAPTER SEVEN SAYS:
          “And I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
          UNTIL THE ANCIENT OF DAYS CASME, and judgement was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” Daniel 7:21, 22
          DOESN’T say “tribulation saints who are Jews” just “saints.”

          Any Jew who becomes a believer in Christ becomes part of the Church, there is neither Jew nor Gentile all are one in Christ Jesus, remember? We are effectively Jews by adoption in Jesus into the category of seed of Abraham. The distinction between Jew and Christian is between unbeliever and unbeliever, but the Jew is in a special category of unbeliever, but a Jew who converted during the tribulation would be ipso facto THE CHURCH ON EARTH DURING THE TRIBULATION FROM THAT POINT ON so even if the church left earth, it would be right back on earth in the person of any Jewish or other convert during that time!

          5. Are we (the Church) not the body of Christ?
          yep, one of many analogies, but not His literal Physical Body which is still His (remember Christ IS not was not did but IS present tense IS come in the flesh).

          6. Didn’t Jesus take “OUR” punishment that we justly deserve on the Cross?
          sure, and what does that have to do with anything? YOU ARE CONFUSING TRIBULATION, WHICH HE WARNED WE WOULD HAVE, JOHN 16:33, WITH GOD’S WRATH. And if we willfully sin after baptism we get some punishment just read Christ’s warnings about the last judgement.

          7. Didn’t Jesus say it is finished?
          AGAIN IRRELEVANT. you are conflating different things. Jesus had finished on the Cross all He had to do. the atonement was complete except for His actual death, which immediately followed that statement. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NOT GETTING PERSECUTED, WHICH HE WARNED WOULD HAPPEN AND DID HAPPEN.

          WE ARE ONLY METAPHORICALLY HIS BODY, NOT LITERALLY. His literal Body suffered on the Cross rose from the dead and is in Heaven on the right hand of The Father. It is not us on earth, we are only METAPHORICALLY not literally His Body.

          So what you cite here IS IRRELEVANT TO THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE.

          8. Or is there another verse were He said this is only partially finish until Daniels 70th week?

          already answered. you confuse tribulation unrighteous wrath of the devil with wrath, the righteous wrath of God.
          GOING THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS NOTHING WE HAVEN’T ALREADY DONE OVER AND OVER IN SMALLER POPULATION FIGURES.

          When are you going to READ THE BIBLE IN ENTIRE BOOKS AT ONE SITTING? you would never get such confusion if you did so. Stop looking for some key word and making a MACHINE out of the Bible. THINGS ARE NUANCED.

          but you need no nuancing to make a CLEAR DISTINCTION between tribulation and wrath. I wonder if this pre trib thing isn’t straight from the devil, because WHEN YOU EQUATE THE TWO, YOU ARE VIEWING IT FROM THE DEVIL’S PERSPECTIVE, TO HIM THE WRATH OF GOD IS TRIBULATION, TO US THE UNRIGHTEOUS WRATH OF THE DEVIL IS TRIBULATION BUT TO THE DEVIL THE RIGHTEOUS WRATH OF GOD IS TRIBULATION, AND YOU EQUATE THE TWO, YOU CALL GOD’S WRATH “TRIBULATION” AS IF YOU HAD LEARNED FROM THE DEVIL!

          9. So now you want to have the body of Christ (the Church) go through the 7 yr tribulation. Why? So that it can fit into your Post Trib Doctrine? Isn’t that like crucifying The Lord all over again?

          not so I can fit it into “my” post trib doctrine but because that is what the bible says AND BECAUSE THE CHURCH HAS ALWAYS GONE THROUGH TRIBULATION OF AN IDENTICAL NATURE.

          AGAIN YOU MISQUOTE THE BIBLE. there is NO SEVEN YEAR tribulation it is THREE AND A HALF YEARS, a time, times, and a half, also referred to as a number of days that adds up to that.

          Read the letters to the seven churches in Revelation, notice some reference to persecution about to happen? Ever hear of martyrs TORTURED, some even raped and most of them KILLED in ancient times and later AND RIGHT NOW IN THE MIDDLE EAST and also at times in Pakistan and India? THIS IS NOTHING NEW.
          THIS IS NOTHING UNUSUAL.

          10. Did you forget what Jesus said about the Church or are you calling God a liar?

          no, it is YOU WHO ARE CALLING GOD A LIAR. Here is what He said:

          “…In the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33

          “be faithful UNTO DEATH and I will give you the crown of life.” Rev. 2:10

          1 Peter 3:14 – But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

          “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you:” I Peter 4:12

          Revelation 2:10 “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall HAVE TRIBULATION TEN DAYS: [WHICH IS TEN YEARS, THE DIOCLETIAN PERSECUTION REMEMBER THE PROPHETIC A DAY FOR A YEAR] BE THOU FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH and I will give thee a crown of life.”

          that promise to keep you from the hour of temptation, Rev. 3:10 WAS WRITTEN TO THE CHURCH OF PHILADELPHIA AND TO NO ONE ELSE, GET IT? NOT TO YOU BUT TO THEM. And it might be He will grant such invisibility or other escape on earth to those who are totally faithful to Him, who are like them. but it is not guaranteed EXCEPT TO THAT ONE CHURCH.

          God promises both good and bad will come to the Church and that it is a great honor to suffer for Christ.

          • Iceman4Christ

            @ Christine Erikson

            So basically your answer was its all irrelevant!

            FAIL!! 🙁

            Actully it does matter. Those verses are talking about Israel. Not the Church or the body of Christ.

            Its the Holy Ghost who restrains. So this Lawless One cant do anything until The Holy Ghost is removed. The Holy Ghost Lives in us. The Body of Christ. How many times is it written in Rev. 2 and 3 He who has an ear what the Spirit says to the churches?

            In Rev 13:9 all you read is if any man have an ear, let him hear. Whats missing here in this verse? Its The Spirit and The Churches. May I suggest the reason is because the Church is no longer on earth.

            Oh you have it right He does start at the beginning, but at the beginning of the 7 yrs The Church is removed. Also those who come to Christ during the Tribulation are made up of Christians and Jews. Revelation makes that distinction by saying the 144,000 are JEWS who are on earth. Then a great multitude in Heaven that no man can number of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. This is the Church.

            My point is Christ lives in us. So I guess we should just ignore all those scriptures that says we are all members of the same body and that we are the body of Christ. 🙄 I am not talking about His literal body.

            Wrath is still wrath. Whether it is Satans or Gods wrath. It will be 7yrs of wrath on earth. The last 3 1/2 yrs is worst than the first 3 1/2 yrs. God has not appointed us unto wrath but to obtain salvation!

            Thanks for trying your best to ignore the questions.

            Here you also seem to contradict yourself.

            you said “If I got it right, he starts out at the start, but begins his persecution in the middle of the 4th year, 3 1/2 years of persecution.”

            Then you said, “AGAIN YOU MISQUOTE THE BIBLE. there is NO SEVEN YEAR tribulation it is THREE AND A HALF YEARS, a time, times, and a half, also referred to as a number of days that adds up to that. ”

            If there is only 3 1/2 yrs like you say then how does persecution begin in the middle of the 4th yr? Wouldn’t it have been better to say at the end of the 3 1/2 years?

            Its not just a 3 1/2yrs it is a literal 7 yrs!

            Daniel 9:27 – And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one WEEK: and in the midst of the WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

            week in Daniel means:

            seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
            period of seven days, a week
            Feast of Weeks
            heptad, seven (of years)

            The same Word Week is used in Genesis 29:27-28

            Gen 29:27 – Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.

            Again trials and tribulations in life is WAY different to what is coming during the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE!
            Jacob is Israel.

            Here is a Post Trib Contradiction!

            Jesus said just as lightning shines from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

            How can Jesus come to those unbelievers as a Thief in the Night, if at His Glorious Appearing He reveals Himself to the whole world?

            You Miss understand Revelation. Jesus is talking to the Churches in rev 2 & 3!

            Revelation 2:10 “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall HAVE TRIBULATION TEN DAYS: [WHICH IS TEN YEARS, THE DIOCLETIAN PERSECUTION REMEMBER THE PROPHETIC A DAY FOR A YEAR] BE THOU FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH and I will give thee a crown of life.”

            This is not 10yrs! Its a literal 10 days. Each day was a literal 24 hour period. Stop trying to make it say what you want. If Jesus wanted to say 10 yrs He would have, but He said 10 days. This is also speaking to the church in the past. This is History. If it was 10yrs are you Now making your 3 1/2yr theory stretch to 10yrs.

            All these types of Churches in revelation can also be found in modernity. There are many believers in the body of Christ! Gods message for these churches are also for us today. If it was just for them then why do we even read our bibles at all!

            that promise to keep you from the hour of temptation, Rev. 3:10 WAS WRITTEN TO THE CHURCH OF PHILADELPHIA AND TO NO ONE ELSE, GET IT? NOT TO YOU BUT TO THEM. And it might be He will grant such invisibility or other escape on earth to those who are totally faithful to Him, who are like them. but it is not guaranteed EXCEPT TO THAT ONE CHURCH.

            🙄

            Wrong! Again you error not knowing the scriptures.

            Rev 3:10>/b> – Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

            If Rev 3:10 was only for Philadelphia then they must be the oldest 2000yr old believers walking around the earth today! I mean they must still be around because the hour of temptation has yet to start! Then once its fixing to start He keeps them from it right?… Or Jesus is talking to us believers now in these last days!

            Jesus promises believers to keep us from the Tribulation!

            Luke 21:36 – Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

            Here in Rev 2:22 it says if believers repent God will keep them from going into the Tribulation! But if some of these believers don’t repent they will go through the Tribulation. These who do not repent are the 5 foolish virgins from Matthew 25.

            Rev 2:22 – Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT they repent of their deeds.

            All these scriptures talking about keeping believers out of the Tribulation can only happen to those generation of believers that are in the last of the last days. Before the Tribulation starts.

            Guess what Christine? It also implies a Pre Trib Rapture of believers. 😀

            You Christine are a false teacher! You do not pass the test. We will have to agree to disagree!

            1Ti 1:6-7 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

            2Pe 3:16 – As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

          • You are free to be Post Trib if you like, we are not thought Nazis here like on Facebook. But you are taking what the Bible clearly says are two separate events and trying to merge them and it will not work. For the reasons already laid out in the article, the character of the Rapture is very much opposite to that of the Day of the Lord. With one, we are told to “comfort one another with these words”, the Rapture. And the other we are told “woe unto you who seek the Day of the Lord”. Now, you do not have to be a seminary graduate to see the clear-cut difference there. Things that are different are not and cannot be the same. Keep studying and praying, the Holy Spirit will show you if you’re open to receive it. When I first got saved, in 1990, I was Post Trib for a few years because I was influenced by Reform Theology. Then some Godly brothers in Christ made me run the verses and lo and behold I saw that I was wrong. You’ll get it.

  • amigodana

    And this is how He tells us that He will protect us;

    (Isaiah 43:2) “When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.”

    In fact here is an example of God doing just that;

    (Daniel 3:25) “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

    (1 Peter 4:12-13) “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: {13} But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”

    (Mark 9:49) “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.”

    “For every one shall be salted with fire”

    There is NO RAPTURE!!!!

    • amigodana

      By the way, remember Noah, No one believed him when he preached that a flood was coming.

      (Isaiah 43:2) “When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.”

      There is a fire coming to judge ALL sinful flesh, NO RAPTURE!!!

      (Jeremiah 23:29) “Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?”

      WE are judged by God’s Word.

      All I am doing is giving you scripture, Please listen to the scripture!!

      (2 Peter 3:6-7) “Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: {7} But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

      • amigodana

        Sorry, there is so much that keeps coming to mind;

        Here is a verse you used;

        Psa 27:5 For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me; He shall set me up upon a Rock.

        Yep, Amen, God will keep us through the storm / Fire!

        (Genesis 7:16) “And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.”

        • that is not a picture of the rapture taking us off earth. Noah was IN THE FLOOD and ON THE EARTH just in a safe position. if this can be used as a type of anything, since the Flood is not tribulation (persecution from the devil) but the righteous wrath of God it would have to be a type of
          the POST TRIB RAPTURE since Noah was kept safe from the
          wrath of God.

          The Flood is not a type of tribulation, which is itself not the wrath of God. This is a major confusion of all pre tribbers, they confuse tribulation with wrath.

          Amidogana, yes one should not be a disciple of any human but of the bible, and you who were looking to be a disciple, you need to shepherd or disciple YOURSELF, you need to learn to not lean on anyone, but pray for insight from God and test everything and use what is good and reject the rest. the same teacher can give truth and falsehood. A classic example is an excellent rant against the pretribbers, showing how time after time predictions of the rapture failed,

          which shows their premises (pre trib) and methods of analysis were wrong, since they never produced a correct
          prediction. But the same writer was oneness Pentecostal (the deception of tongues and anti Trinitarian heresies combined).

          amigodana I can’t quite tell what you are trying to say, you post scripture after scripture and there is too much here in general to track ALL your stuff, and you don’t say what they are supposed to prove regarding the rapture as pre or post trib. Could you explain your position please? I realize you rely and rightly on Scripture, you don’t want to preach your own words only God’s words and that is fine, but what do you mean by it? if you don’t say what your point is, I can’t tell if you are pushing truth or heresy if the same Scripture means one thing to you and another to someone else.

          If you say what you are getting at, and then post the Scripture you say validates this, it is then possible to tell if it does validate this.

          • amigodana

            I will try to simplify it for you since you are having a hard time.

            (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

            “The righteous shall never be removed:”

            I believe God, there is NO PRE, MID, OR Post Trib.

            “The righteous shall never be removed:”

        • Iceman4Christ

          @ amigodana

          So out of all these scriptures you only replied to Psalm 27:5! 🙄 Ok. Instead of calling it rapture we will call it the catching away or harpazo if you like! 😉

          Psa 27:5

          For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me; He shall set me up upon a Rock.

          What about these?

          Zeph 2:3

          Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.

          If The LORD is coming to punish then why are we hiding in our chambers with the Door shut in this next scripture?

          This definitely sounds like 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51

          Isa 26:19-21Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

          1Th 4:13-17 – But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

          1Co 15:52-53 – In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

          After The LORD has punished the earth, Why are we now coming out of those same Chambers from Isaiah 26:19-21 with the Bridegroom and called the Bride in this scripture?

          Joel 2:16 – Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the Bridegroom go forth of His chamber, and the Bride out of her closet.

          amigodana why do you ignore the obvious? Just read these scriptures. 😀

          You do know there are 7 examples of God snatching or catching someone away through out the bible, right?

      • Iceman4Christ

        @ amigodana

        You always mention Noah. However did you forget that God took Enoch before the flood? He could have lived all the way up to that day or even got on the ark. Why didn’t he?

        Gen 5:24 – And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

        Heb 11:5 – By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

        How about Elijah?

        2Ki 2:11 – And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

        You fail to understand that God can keep you from the fire and He can also see you through the fire.

        Tell me Where is Daniel in Daniel ch.3? Why isn’t Daniel in that story? I am pretty sure Daniel would not be kneeling down to that statue. Seems to me God kept Daniel from that fiery trial but saw Daniels friends through it. 😀

        • amigodana

          Quote; “You always mention Noah.”

          No I don’t, that was the first time I mentioned noah!!!!!

          Call it what you want, you are NOT going anywhere!

          I brought up Noah to show you that God gives an example of Him shutting us in the chambers of protection (ARK). Which answers ALL your other verses.

          And as far as Enoch, Do you know who God is?

          (John 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

          So Go is the True Word!

          And Enoch was Translated from a False Word into the truth.

          (Hebrews 11:5) “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”

          You are a false word / a god.

          (John 10:34) “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”

          (Romans 7:22-24) “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: {23} But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. {24} O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

          (1 John 3:2) “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

          Yes, again we will be TRANSLATED from the false words that we speak now to the true word of God!

          Translated still does not mean that you are going anywhere!

          It means that you will CHANGE!!!

          NO RAPTURE!!!!

          You are kind of contentious towards Gods Word, so I can only take one step at a time.

          Quote; “You fail to understand that God can keep you from the fire and He can also see you through the fire.”

          WHAT? Did you read Gods word at all?

          (Isaiah 43:2) “When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.”

          • amigodana

            By the way, a little science for you. Did you know that your DNA is written as a BOOK!!!!

            Question; Were we not created in Gods image?

            2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

            “the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God”

  • amigodana

    Quote: “If you can I will stop posting on here and become your disciple!”

    Believe ALL scripture not man!

    (Jeremiah 17:5) “¶ Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.”

    (1 Chronicles 22:12) “Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.”

    “Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding”

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ amigodana

      Well you haven’t proven anything so I will continue to keep posting comments. 😀

      By the way I believe the scripture. Just not men like you who don’t understand it.

      • amigodana

        I am not trying to gain anything here. I only pray that you and everyone else likewise will open your eyes to ALL the scriptures. To STOP finding excuses to ignore or doubt Gods Word.

        Its your choice though!!!

        (Romans 3:10-12) “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

        “There is none that understandeth”

        I am a sinner JUST like you!!!

  • MRH

    Folks: Regarding bible study, it’s a complex game, with many variables! Like with controversial topics; trinity, baptism, salvation, sanctification, and of course ‘end time’ bible prophecy?

    So that what one person claims, another person can seemingly counter? In essence there are often seemingly two sides to the biblical coin. And which side a person chooses is whatever they believe or think is truth? And therefore we choose specific scriptures to prove our whatever biblical points?

    Case in point, salvation by; grace, works? Which one is true? Lets examine two popular but controversial and seemingly opposing scriptures 😉

    Eph 2:8-9 KJV – For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Jas 2:14 KJV – What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    As clearly evident above, these two popular scriptures contradict each other? Why? Well first lets see whom each chapter is addressed to? This factor is critical to biblical study, as not all scripture is addressed to all groups (administrations); Jews, Gentiles, etc 😉

    Eph 1:1 KJV – Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

    Jas 1:1 KJV – James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    So what about the above conflicting mystery? Well, for one thing, Paul was appointed as a teacher unto the Gentiles. And according to Paul, the church is not under the law, but under grace and faith. Also is the church of the twelve tribes? Read Galations 2 💡

    Act 9:15-16 KJV – But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.

    Eph 3:1, 6 KJV – For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, … That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Gal 2:16 KJV – Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Ok, I’ve done my part in unveiling things, and the rest is in your hands! Will you continue your whatever belief patterns, which is your choice, as we are freewill creatures? Or are you willing to drop all preconceptions, and carefully examine the scriptures as intended?

    FYI The Vatican hides much secret holy knowledge, much of which is not included in the bible. Why? Because to reveal all secrets, would render the Vatican powerless!? And is not the Vatican, Satan’s seat? Ironically, bible writers have quoted from such external books!

    Non canonical books quoted or alluded to:

    Book of Enoch (Jude 4,6,13,14–15, 2 Peter 2:4;3:13)
    Epistle to the Laodiceans (Colossians 4:16 “read the epistle from Laodicea”)
    Life of Adam and Eve (2 Corinthians 11:14 “Satan as an angel of light”, 12:2 “Third Heaven”)
    A lost section of the Assumption of Moses (Jude 9 “Michael.. body of Moses”)
    Martyrdom of Isaiah (Hebrews 11:37 “they were sawn in two”)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

    P.S. Regarding; Illuminati, NWO, 666, 911, RFID, USA/EU, Antichrist, Maitreya, Surveillance, FEMA, HAARP, Project Blue Beam, Underground Bases, Georgia Guidestones, DIA, UFO, Area 51, Chemtrails, NASA, etc!? I haven’t the answers, only speculations. So as with all above, each person must make their own conclusions! As for your choice in matters, that is not my game, unless we somehow congeal? 😀

  • This post is simply an example of undermining Scripture’s credibility.
    There is NO CONFLICT between those Scriptures on grace and works if you read all in context. “works” is circumcision, food laws, holy days, new moons, Sabbath keeping suchlike works of the MOSAIC law! Galatians is all about that, and gets onto a list of works of the flesh which will damn you vs. fruits of the spirit which will save you, and we are told elsewhere we saved IN ORDER TO DO GOOD WORKS. Some call this “Lordship salvation” fine, that’s what JEsus taught. notice His warnings in parables about returning bosses and the judgement itself. and “why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?”

    I am very glad to know that some are not separating the Rapture from the Second Coming any more, BECAUSE NO SCRIPTURE TREATS THEM AS SEPARATE THEY OCCUR AT THE SAME TIME. “rightly dividing” is not about hacking Scripture to bits and pieces and reassembling them into something The Bible does not say. “dividing” is cut straight, true, right, exact perhaps relating to cutting pieces to make furniture or a house or door frame with.

    Now we get the Vatican and secrets it holds and extrabiblical books which yes some pieces got cited by the Bible, but not the whole things, but they were well known at the time though what versions we have now we have no way of knowing are the originals unaltered.

    If you read the Bible an ENTIRE BOOK AT A TIME and especially AN ENTIRE GOSPEL AT A TIME and AN ENTIRE EPISTLE AT A TIME instead of bits and pieces you get a different picture. More in tune with what the writers in the second and third centuries said, and…..

    How could Constantine make the church change when over 200 years of persecution didn’t make them change? That whole story originated with some moslem polemicist against the divinity of Christ arguing that Constantine paganized the Church, then some atheist took it up, and meanwhile the Hislop sort got into this. Hislop was a fool and sloppy and with his evidence you could jettison the virgin birth, Resurrection and Trinity as well, Hislop didn’t dare go this far (or wouldn’t) and said that in those cases this was a vague memory in paganism of a truth once known before paganism developed. You could say the same for most of the rest of it. fish head mitres were only developed for bishops in the RC in medieval times, and never in Byzantium. Semiramis was not even the same century as Nimrod and the only person connecting him to Ninus and to her was a person not esteemed as accurate in his own time among ancient writers.

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ Christine Erikson

      “How could Constantine make the church change when over 200 years of persecution didn’t make them change? That whole story originated with some moslem polemicist against the divinity of Christ arguing that Constantine paganized the Church, then some atheist took it up, and meanwhile the Hislop sort got into this. Hislop was a fool and sloppy and with his evidence you could jettison the virgin birth, Resurrection and Trinity as well, Hislop didn’t dare go this far (or wouldn’t) and said that in those cases this was a vague memory in paganism of a truth once known before paganism developed. You could say the same for most of the rest of it. fish head mitres were only developed for bishops in the RC in medieval times, and never in Byzantium. Semiramis was not even the same century as Nimrod and the only person connecting him to Ninus and to her was a person not esteemed as accurate in his own time among ancient writers.” – Christine Erikson

      What are you catholic? There is paganism in Catholicism! Just look at the many traditions they have. I use to be catholic. So I would know.

      Just take Christmas for example. Christ-Mass! Really just look into that one. Then Read Jeremiah 10.

      Catholicism is Thyatira of Revelation ch. 2. Sure they are believers but the have also compromised the Word of God. They even take both positions of Creation and evolution. Ridiculous!

      They are all about spare rituals, its not about being Spiritual.

      • Hi Christine. I broadly agree with this comment. Especially about hacking the bible to bits and pieces and glueing them back together all higgeldy piggeldy, which is exactly what Pre-Tribulationists do all the time, and do so in so many of the comments on sites or posts like these. And good on the Semiramis – Nimrod false claims, and Hislop too – I was taken in by him as a teenager, until I actually examined the evidence and was appalled at what I found.

    • MRH

      “This post is simply an example of undermining Scripture’s credibility.
      There is NO CONFLICT between those Scriptures on grace and works if you read all in context. “works” is circumcision, food laws, holy days, new moons, Sabbath keeping suchlike works of the MOSAIC law! Galatians is all about that, and gets onto a list of works of the flesh which will damn you vs. fruits of the spirit which will save you, and we are told elsewhere we saved IN ORDER TO DO GOOD WORKS. Some call this “Lordship salvation” fine, that’s what JEsus taught”

      @ Christine Erikson: You completely miss the point of my post. Paul refers to the whole law, not just the ceremonial parts 😉

      Gal 3:10-13, 17-19, 21, 23-24 KJV – For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: … And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. … Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. … But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

      FYI Lordship Salvation is false doctrine unto the church. Of course Jesus taught such as he lived under the law, as grace had not yet come. But to teach an old plan which has been replaced by a new plan is plain wrong!

      Gal 5:4 KJV – Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

      Eph 2:15 KJV – Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

      1Ti 1:9 KJV – Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

      Heb 7:12, 19 KJV – For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. … For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

      P.S. You would be wise to depart your church (cult), and follow what is taught in the church epistles regarding salvation and such 💡

  • “What are you catholic?”

    NO. used to be protestant converted to the original church Eastern Orthodox from which Roman Catholicism split over the papacy and the filioque which wrongly they added to the Creed saying The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND THE SON

    “There is paganism in Catholicism! Just look at the many traditions they have. I use to be catholic. So I would know.”
    pop Catholicism is a mess with magic like do a certain prayer for nine days to get a certain thing. novenas. and the Marian visions are all a deception. Orthodoxy greatly honors Mary but nowhere near considers her a co redemptrix like many Catholics (word means universal as in same core doctrine in all churches regardless of geography or ethnicity same God) and the Orthodox icons of Mary always have her POINTING TO JESUS.

    “Just take Christmas for example. Christ-Mass! Really just look into that one. Then Read Jeremiah 10.”

    Jeremiah 10 describes the process of making a false god not a Christmas tree, which itself is a west European invention Luther had a hand in though it had some minor precedent elsewhere occasionally. The lights on it represent the true light of Christ lighting the darkness.

    “Catholicism is Thyatira of Revelation ch. 2.”

    Doesn’t even resemble that. Jezebel taught fornication and eating things contaminated by sacrifice to idols (I guess like they have some energy they can use or lucky meat or something), no resemblance to RC doctrine or practice (official practice, perversions are not officially condoned).

    ” Sure they are believers” glad you recognize that,
    “but the have also compromised the Word of God.”
    yes, and you don’t fully understand how.

    ” They even take both positions of Creation and evolution.” so do all the protestant denominations and evangelicals.

    • oops, missed a few.

      thief in the night – from the perspective of the unbelievers who don’t expect this, and don’t think someone sneaking in and out but kicking in the door, think home invasion.

      gates of hell not prevail – gates are defensive. if church on the offensive, hell will not prevail, and define “prevail.” Jesus also asked if He would find faith on the earth when He comes back and left it an open (unanswered) question, Luke 18:8 even if all believers dead, none to be raptured, there is the church in heaven with Jesus, and a full prevailing, as in permanent, of course will not happen. Jesus will cut that short, a mere 3 1/2 years not indefinitely like the antichrist expects to do.

      you’ve been to war – shameful response, you have no idea what I am talking about. you were a warrior, not some child or a woman raised badly like all are (not raised to be an amazon) or an elderly person, and here come’s ISIS beating crap out of you, raping you, torturing you or your loved ones in front of you, and killing you, and if you are lucky you get the option of choosing death, leaving immediately or paying a tax. But if you don’t have the money, and won’t convert to islam, you die. maybe a bit worse than mere death for a bit.

      There is nothing so terrible about being beheaded, a pretty easy way to go. if the antichrist is trying to kill everyone and most are resisting him, not only Christians but others for other reasons, he isn’t going to have time to do nearly as much as ISIS except in a few cases, mostly it will be a quick time of choice after a certain amount of kick around and line up, and watch others die, and go to the guillotine or an axe or sword.

      the remarkable quality of the great tribulation is not its cruelty, it is its EXTENSIVENESS so that no flesh would be left alive if it were not cut short.

      as for Catholics not being spiritual, neither are you, if your blessed hope is Jesus saving your hide, instead of seeing Jesus rule on earth and yourself receiving an immortal indestructible but physical body to live forever in a happy redesigned earth.

      • Iceman4Christ

        “thief in the night – from the perspective of the unbelievers who don’t expect this, and don’t think someone sneaking in and out but kicking in the door, think home invasion.”

        WHAT? 🙄

        “gates of hell not prevail – gates are defensive. if church on the offensive, hell will not prevail, and define “prevail.” Jesus also asked if He would find faith on the earth when He comes back and left it an open (unanswered) question, Luke 18:8 even if all believers dead, none to be raptured, there is the church in heaven with Jesus, and a full prevailing, as in permanent, of course will not happen. Jesus will cut that short, a mere 3 1/2 years not indefinitely like the antichrist expects to do.”

        1Ti 1:6-7 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

        Again! You are so incorrect in many ways. All I here coming from you is vain jangling.

        We will have to agree to disagree.

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ Christine

      “Jeremiah 10 describes the process of making a false god not a Christmas tree, which itself is a west European invention Luther had a hand in though it had some minor precedent elsewhere occasionally. The lights on it represent the true light of Christ lighting the darkness.”

      God has nothing to do with pagan practices! Christmas and its many christmas trees have come from pagan practices and ancient forms of worship.

      “Doesn’t even resemble that. Jezebel taught fornication and eating things contaminated by sacrifice to idols (I guess like they have some energy they can use or lucky meat or something), no resemblance to RC doctrine or practice (official practice, perversions are not officially condoned).”

      Catholics use idols in there worship. They think they can turn the Eucharist into the literal body of Jesus and the wine into the literal blood of Christ. Fornication is rampant in the catholic church and so is pedophilia! What rock have you been hiding under?

      ”They even take both positions of Creation and evolution.” so do all the protestant denominations and evangelicals.”

      Sorry that is an incorrect statement!

      • first off you are very ignorant regarding history, Christmas trees, what pagans did and the belief in evolution endemic in Protestantism.

        secondly, Jesus said “this is my Body …. This is my Blood” and the literal interpretation is indicated by Paul saying that if you eat and drink this without perceiving the Body of the Lord you eat and drink judgement against yourself (damnation is the term used)

        The early church believed this also. Justin Martyr c AD 150 taught by an old man whose lifetime overlapped that of the Apostolic age, and Irenaeus c. AD 180 taught by Polycarp who was taught by the Apostle John himself both taught the transformation of the bread and wine into the literal Body and Blood of Christ. deal with it.

        Even Luther retained this much truth but the blasphemer Zwingli and semi blasphemer Calvin overrode Luther’s teaching in Protestantism, Ameican protestanism is heavily Calvin and Zwingli shaped, regardless of whether you heard the names or not these are the people who originated the teaching you think is biblical but it isn’t.

        • Iceman4Christ

          Eating the communion is symbolic. The Bread or Eucharist in the catholic sense does not become the literal flesh of Jesus the Christ and the wine does not turn into the literal physical form of blood. It is symbolic of what Christ does for us on the Cross. We do it in remembrance of Him.

          You only get mad about the Christmas tree because you yourself like setting one up every winter solstice!

          • amigodana

            That was a little callous iceman4Christ?

          • Heather

            Wikipedia.org
            There are many views regarding the timing of Christ return(including whether it will occur in one event or two), and various views regarding the destination of the aerial gatherings described in 1 Thessalonians 4 Denominations such as Roman Catholic’s, Orthodox Christians, Lutherans and Reformed Christians believe in a rapture only in the sense of a general final resurrection, when Christ returns a single time. They do not believe that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4 : 17.

            Information like this has a way of putting things into perspective, such as in where confusion of God’s word can originate from. Groups following groups instead of God’s promises in His word.

          • Heather

            Matthew 15:13-14

            13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted up.

            14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

  • amigodana

    That’s Funny, I asked you (iceman4Christ) the same question towards the beginning of all this; Are you Catholic?

    You sort of do have that appearance.

    But anyway!!!!

    • Iceman4Christ

      Whats funny is that you think you know what you are talking about! 😀

      • amigodana

        You don’t hear very well, do you? Let me try turning it up for you!

        I am not trying to gain anything here. I only pray that you and everyone else likewise will open your eyes to ALL the scriptures. To STOP finding excuses to ignore or doubt Gods Word.

        Its your choice though!!!

        (Romans 3:10-12) “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

        “There is none that understandeth”

        I am a sinner JUST like you!!!

        • Iceman4christ

          @ amigodana

          I know I am a sinner! I am the worst sinner on this blog. That is why I need Jesus. Only through Him can I have redemption.

          As for being catholic, No I am not Catholic. I used to be a long time ago. Like I have told you before. I am a Born Again believer in the Word of God.

          I am curious though what church do you go to? What type of church is it?

          I also could say the same of you

          “I only pray that you and some on here will open your eyes to ALL the scriptures. To STOP finding excuses to ignore or doubt Gods Word.”

          • amigodana

            I don’t follow any man or their traditions. I read the Bible daily, and trust Jesus, the Word. Is it not Jesus who heals the blind?

            (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

            Sola Scriptura !!!!

          • amigodana

            Then stop teaching that God has mistakes!!!! If you believe in Him?

  • amigodana

    (Romans 3:10-12) “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

    God understands though;

    1 Chronicles 22:12 Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

    Does God Lie?

    (Numbers 23:19) “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

    (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

  • amigodana

    Quote; “I don’t see where you get NO rapture, just no pretribulation rapture, its not escape from the antichrist just greeting Christ in midair to accompany Him to earth, just like in ancient times people would go out to greet and accompany their ruler coming back from a trip. and to get us out of the way of the destruction being poured out. the word in greek is harpazo.”

    Point #1 (Please Read SLOWLY)

    (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

    ““The righteous shall never be removed:”

    Point #2 We don’t need greek, we have His word as pure in the english language. People only do that when they want to change the clear and transparent words God has already provided in His Pure and preserved Word.

    Go on and ask what is Gods definition of pure, or how about the Holy ghost providing His word in another Tongue!

    There are NO mistakes in the bible!!!

    • jimmy

      You are one of the most uniformed bible teachers i have read!( Jews inherit the earth?) christians inherit heaven?)Lol! Man you need to start over! Jeremiah 30, the contract is between Israel and the house of Judah, ( which are the lost tribes) Jesus (yahshua came after the lost sheep of Israel only) so we are either part of the bloodline are we are grafted in!The messiah explains the whole timeline in Matthew 24! No pre-
      trib rapture!

      • amigodana

        Jimmy, you don’t read do you!!!

        I said;

        (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

        I don’t care who you are!!

        (Romans 2:10-12) “But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: {11} For there is no respect of persons with God. {12} For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;”

        • amigodana

          Before you jump into the middle of a conversation, use a little wisdom. I started this by quoting someone who believes in post-trib.

          I don’t believe PRE, MID, or Post.

          I believe God!!

          (Proverbs 10:30) “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

  • amigodana

    People often say that only the “Originals” were Pure or Gods true word.

    They were pure, but yet again, Who is Jesus?

    (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

    But the Word was nailed to the cross, right?

    (John 19:19-20) “¶ And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. {20} This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.”

    Notice that it was the three “originals” that were nailed up there?

    Why do you think that they don’t exist anymore and we don’t have the originals.

    But Jesus is risen isn’t he? So we still have the word with us today.

    (Matthew 28:20) “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

    “I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

    The word is translated by the Holy Ghost, not man.

    (Acts 2:3-4) “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. {4} And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

    (Acts 2:6) “Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.”

    “every man heard them speak in his own language.”

    By the power of the Holy Ghost!!

    (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

    • Heather

      amigodana,and Christine I have only one question for you. Do feel an urgency help lead the lost to our Lord Jesus so that they may be saved?

      • amigodana

        (Proverbs 1:7) “¶ The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”

      • Iceman4Christ

        Sister, it’s like talking to a brick wall with them. 🙁

  • Heather

    iceman4christ, God bless you brother for teaching the TRUTH of God’s Word with clarity! I just can’t wait for the Glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus when He comes to call us home. He will certainly find us watching won’t he!

    • Iceman4Christ

      God gets all the glory! 😀

      I agree. Can’t wait to see what these rooms look like that our Lord has in His Father’s house. I also can’t wait for when we receive our watchers crown.

  • john becker

    the rapture and the second coming is two separate events otherwise he could not bring his church with him at his second coming. ALOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SURPRISED WHEN IT HAPPENS. AND HE SAID………..WHO ARE THIS OTHER FLOCK WHO HAVE COME THROUGH THE TRIBULATION AND WHITENED THEIR ROBES. and he that CAN ENDURE UNTILL THE END WILL BE SAVED. IF YOU CANNOT ENDURE BY LISTENING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDE YOU…….YOU WILL BE KILLED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. YOUR FAITH WILL BE INCREASED AS YOU SEE THE THINGS FORETOLD LITERALLY UNFOLD BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES. IT WILL TAKE ALOT OF FAITH TO MAKE IT THROUGH. NITROMAN MPLS MINN

  • Dear Geoffrey;
    April 30th I commented to you that you had struck a bonanza at 177 comments. Now at 415 comments I can say that not only have the number of comments been over the top but I have learned a lot while reading them. I am a born again Christian and am also waiting for the trump to sound.
    THANK YOU for being there and making things so clear, even to me a Christian and child of The King for over 60 years.
    Another Brother
    In Christ Jesus
    Dennis

  • Arlene Whitfield

    WATCH!

    • amigodana

      They Won’t listen!!!

      They will be laid back, looking up at the guillotine blade saying “I just know I will be raptured, I just know it!”

      • Arlene Whitfield

        Truth!

      • amigodana

        Or, how about; “that can’t be the mark of the beast that you are making me take, I wasn’t raptured.”

    • Iceman4Christ

      So this guy is your post trib hero? I have watched his videos on youtube before.

      Even this guy would not be able to answer some of the questions I have offered to many of you post tribers.

      Just answer this one right here and can he also answer just this one.

      1Th 5:1

      But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

      HOW can Jesus come to those unbelievers as a Thief in the Night if at His Glorious Appearing He reveals Himself to the whole world?

      Jesus said just as lightning shines from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

      It is also written in Rev 1.

      Rev 1:7 – Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

      Do you see the contradiction?

      If its the same event then how can He come as a Theif to the unbeliever? Then Appear where everyone sees its Him?

      Just give an honest answer to this one. I have many more for you Post Tribber out there.

      It is 2 Seperate events. By the Time Jesus comes back @ the 2nd coming everybody who is still alive will know He is coming.

      • amigodana

        OK, Look at the context;

        First, it says that the DAY will come as a thief, NOT that the LORD will be as a thief!

        “…the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night….”

        So lets let scripture tell us about that thief.

        (Job 24:13-14) “They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof. {14} The murderer rising with the light killeth the poor and needy, and in the night is as a thief.”

        The murderer, those that rebel against the light are the thief in the night, NOT GOD!

        In fact the house of God will not be broken up by this thief!

        Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

        In fact, God says; No thief approacheth!

        Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

        Quote; “HOW can Jesus come to those unbelievers as a Thief in the Night”

        He Doesn’t!!!

        So understand that it is of the DAY that comes as a surprise!

        Not that our God is a thief!!! You are reading this WAY out of context!!!!!

        Show me in the scriptures Where it calls God a thief ????

        • Iceman4Christ

          @ amigodana

          You know am.I.god.ana everytime you open your mouth it like a blessing for me to share more scriptures. Thank you!

          The Thief is Jesus the Christ! Please just Read where He says so Himself!

          Rev 16:15

          Behold, I come as a THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

          So as you can see the day of the LORD comes as a thief because He, Himself is the Greatest Thief of them all.

          Have you ever wondered why He was crucified between 2 other thieves?

          LOL!! 😀

          God is awesome! The Greatest Thief was on the cross that day. Not only did He steal our hearts, He also took back what Adam lost to Satan. Then in these last days He will come as a Thief to those unbelievers and the so foolish sheep who have no oil to discern what is fixing to come. lol.

          Truly GOD is awesome!

          • amigodana

            I was hoping you would go there!!!!

            I like scripture too, so its cool!!!

            (Revelation 16:15-16) “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. {16} And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

            Notice where He gathered them too?

            “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

            They still didn’t go to heaven!!!!

            (John 3:12-13) “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? {13} And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

            There is One more, would you care to go there as well?

          • amigodana

            Quote; “The Greatest Thief was on the cross that day.”

            Here is a quick English lit. question for you.

            He is a thief, OR, He is as a thief?

            There is a difference in context now.

        • Iceman4Christ

          @ am.I.god.ana

          – “I was hoping you would go there!!!!

          I like scripture too, so its cool!!!

          (Revelation 16:15-16) “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. {16} And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

          Notice where He gathered them too?

          “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

          They still didn’t go to heaven!!!!”

          LOL. 🙂 Seriously you r 2 funny!

          That scripture says He is a Thief in verse 15. It’s also shows How he stops in the middle of a conversation or the story to proclaim He is coming as a thief. Not that He is coming as a Thief in that moment of verse 16. He proclaims many times He is coming when you read the book of revelation.

          For Example:

          Rev 1:7-8 – Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

          Rev 2:16 – Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

          Rev 3:11 – Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

          Rev 3:20 – Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

          Rev 22:7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

          Rev 22:12 -¶ And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

          Rev 22:17 – And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

          Then in verse 16 continues on to tell us where He gathers the armies of the world to do battle NOT the CHURCH. lol. Verse 16 is not RAPTURE!

          So are you implying that Rev. 16:16 is talking about the Church or believers?

          Verse 16 is what Happens before the 2nd coming. He is gathering the Armies of the World to Armageddon = “the hill or city of Megiddo” This is where the Final Battle will take place.

          You crack me up am.I.god.ana! 😀

          • amigodana

            Quote; “That scripture says He is a Thief”

            No, He is “AS” a thief in that verse, big difference!

            English Lit 101!!! SURPRISE; SURPRISE here I am!!!

            I love ALL those scriptures!!!!

            He is coming quickly!! AMEN!!!!

            AGAIN, You are still not leaving to go anywhere!

            No ONE is leaving to go anywhere!!

            No one has ever ascended anywhere, so we have No examples to show us this in scripture!

            (John 3:12-13) “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? {13} And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

            Or is Jesus a liar?

      • Actually, it is you that have the problem. Firstly, we should look at every single use of ‘thief in the night’ type imagery, and see if there is a pattern. There is:
        In the gospels, Jesus uses it in the context of the righteous vs the wicked – Matthew 24.37-51, and notice that last parable – it is specifically for church leaders – those who abuse their flock and act unrighteously will be condemned, and the day comes on them like a thief, but those who look after their fellow servants will be rewarded, and not condemned.
        Luke 12.33-48 is exactly the same – the day comes as a thief for those who do not have the right attitude of heart – and those church leaders who act wickedly will be assigned a portion with the unbelievers.
        Similarly, in 1 Thessalonians 5.1-5 or so, a) clearly Paul is referring to Matthew 24 / Luke 12 since he uses the same language – times and seasons not known and those who live in darkness are overtaken by that day as a thief, but not the Thessalonian church who are living righteously.
        2 Peter 3 says that the ‘day of the Lord’ coming as a thief’ is specifically on the day that the heavens and earth are burned up or transformed with a great noise and heat. He emphatically isn’t talking about a separate, secret rapture. His usage is utterly inconsistent with any Pre-Tribulation or Mid-Tribulation position, and only consistent with either a post-trib position or a few of those pre-wrath positions that envisage an extremely short wrath period consistent with a post-trib position.
        Jesus in Revelation 3 says he will ‘come like a thief’ not in reference to his actual return, but in reference to the standing of a church – and he will come like a thief only if they do not repent and become alert and watch – again, the theme is righteousness vs unrighteousness.
        Finally, and perhaps most decisively of all, we consider the main body of Revelation. If the Pre-Trib position on both the reference of ‘thief in the night’ to a secret rapture, and the alleged timing of that at the start of Revelation 4, then we would expect ‘thief in the night’ imagery to be somewhere around there. Instead the only place where Jesus in the main body of Revelation uses such language is specifically at ARMAGEDDON, just at the point of his glorious return. Don’t believe me, then check it out in context – and notice again that it is specifically linked to righteous vs unrighteous living too:
        Revelation 16.12-16
        And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

        There you have it in black and white. The day of the Lord coming like a thief happens at Armageddon, not before. Post-Trib all the way.

  • amigodana

    AMEN!

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ amigodana

      – “says:
      May 12, 2015 at 9:12 pm

      Quote; “That scripture says He is a Thief”

      No, He is “AS” a thief in that verse, big difference!

      English Lit 101!!! SURPRISE; SURPRISE here I am!!!

      I love ALL those scriptures!!!!

      He is coming quickly!! AMEN!!!!

      AGAIN, You are still not leaving to go anywhere!

      No ONE is leaving to go anywhere!!

      No one has ever ascended anywhere, so we have No examples to show us this in scripture!

      (John 3:12-13) “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? {13} And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

      Or is Jesus a liar?”

      LOL!! 😀

      Why did you ignored this part of the question!

      So are you implying that Rev. 16:16 is talking about the Church or believers?

      Then in verse 16 continues on to tell us where He gathers the armies of the world to do battle NOT the CHURCH. LOL!

      Verse 16 is not RAPTURE!

      Verse 16 is what Happens before the 2nd coming. He is gathering the Armies of the World to Armageddon = “the hill or city of Megiddo” This is where the Final Battle will take place.

      Also if I come to your house AS A THIEF and take something from you wouldn’t I be called a Thief? I am sure that makes me a THIEF!

      Maybe your ENGLISH LIT 101 can help you with my thief question! 😀

      You Truly crack me up am.I.god.Ana!!….. 😀

  • Arlene Whitfield

    The answer is simple and Steven Anderson does answer this trivial question. He comes as a thief to unbelievers because they DON’T KNOW the signs of His coming unlike us who are awake and sober. It’s ONE event! You pre-tribbers believe in a coming 1.5, a coming 2.0, and a coming 3.0. 1 Thessalonians 5:1 that you posted just proves that.

    • MRH

      You need to read your bible better. All trib theories are flawed. According to scripture, the return event consists of two stages. The 1st stage is the rapture, which occurs at the end of tribulation before wrath begins. The 2nd stage occurs after the harvest at the end of wrath 😉

      Jesus declares 🙂

      Tribulation begins) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

      Stage 1 – for church) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

      Wrath begins) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

      Stage 2 – with church) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

      Harvest) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      Paul declares 🙂

      But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:

      Christ resurrected) Christ the firstfruits;

      Church resurrected) afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

      End prevails) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

      P.S. The ‘mark of the beast’ occurs after the rapture of the church 😀

      • amigodana

        MRH, Why are you even still worried about a rapture?

        You call people names, like “FOOL”!

        (Matthew 5:22) “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”

        Even if there is a rapture, YOU are not going!!

        • MRH

          @ amigodana: Why do you care what I believe? Also God decides my fate NOT YOU 😀 Furthermore, the bible declares a rapture, regardless of what you claim. Also there are many folk who deny God exists, and they too have much evidence to support their case 😉

          Tip: Calling people names doesn’t warrant hell fire anymore 😀

          You need to drop the old covenant game and join the new covenant game 💡

          Heb 8:1, 6-7, 12-13 KJV – Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; … But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. … For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

          • amigodana

            That is Gods words not mine, take it up with him. I am not your judge, He is!!!

            Your one of those, huh?

            If you say that you believe God then answer Gods question;

            (1 Corinthians 1:13) “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?”

            Who is God?

            (John 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

            (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

            Are you saying that Christ / God is divided?

            Are you saying that it was Paul that was crucified for us?

            (1 Timothy 3:16) “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

        • MRH

          “Are you saying that it was Paul that was crucified for us?”

          @ amigodana: Do you deny Paul’s ministry given him by God? 😉

          Act 9:15 KJV – But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

          Rom 11:13 KJV – For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

          Rom 15:16 KJV – That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

          Eph 3:1, 6, 8 KJV – For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, … That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: … Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

          1Ti 2:7 KJV – Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

          2Ti 1:11 KJV – Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

          P.S. You post scripture out of context, as you deny the new grace salvation plan 🙁

          • amigodana

            GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!!

            I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING!!

            That is a question that GOD asks.

            You ask me if I believe in grace;

            (John 1:17) “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

            “grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

            Who is Jesus?

            (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

            (1 Timothy 3:16) “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

          • MRH

            “Who is Jesus?”

            @ amigodana: The HOLY answer 😉

            https://youtu.be/y4KDwhNqYa4

          • amigodana

            The HOLY ANSWER!!!

            (1 John 2:22-24) “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. {23} Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. {24} Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.”

            (John 1:1-2) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} The same was in the beginning with God.”

            (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

          • MRH

            “You ask me if I believe in grace”

            @ amigodana: If you did such, then you would accept the apostles teachings? But rather you challenge or twist such unto your interests? Which makes me wonder whom you are.. friend or foe? And I will say the same of all others here whom reject or twist my holy offerings!?

            P.S. A friend accepts others and their varied faults, and offers to help them in whatever ways. A foe rejects others and their varied faults, and offers worthless help! Also foes claim holiness, yet they are secretly unholy! Whom are YOU? 😉

          • amigodana

            You are having a hard time understanding, right?

            I worship God:

            (Revelation 19:10) “And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

            “worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

            I have considered what you have said;

            (2 Timothy 2:7) “Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.”

            But it is the Lord ONLY that will give me understanding. Because;

            (Jeremiah 17:5) “¶ Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.”

            holy offerings = LOL!!! Who do you think you are?

            (Matthew 16:23) “But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”

            (John 8:41-44) “Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. {42} Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. {43} Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. {44} Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

          • MRH

            @ amigodana: You error in understanding, or you are the enemy? If friend, you would not hide nor accuse! Therefore I must conclude that you are a demon or possessed by demons? Of course if you are, you won’t admit fact? Why? Because your revealing hour is yet future. In the meantime, you have free but restricted reign! God knows whom you are and your evil game, so don’t bother hiding! For I know whom you are, as God has revealed things 😉

          • amigodana

            MRH, this is a waist of time, Bye!

          • MRH

            “I worship God”

            @ amigodana: So do Satan’s secret servants 😯

            Jas 2:19 KJV – Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

            P.S. From your witness you are NOT a friend 😥

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ Arlene Whitfield

      – “The answer is simple and Steven Anderson does answer this trivial question. He comes as a thief to unbelievers because they DON’T KNOW the signs of His coming unlike us who are awake and sober. It’s ONE event! You pre-tribbers believe in a coming 1.5, a coming 2.0, and a coming 3.0. 1 Thessalonians 5:1 that you posted just proves that.”

      Wow! So you rely on this guy to give you such a lousy answer. 🙁

      1st read this whole post. Don’t ignore it. Then think about it.

      God is so merciful that He is willing that none perish. He will Go to great lengths to make sure everyone will know He is coming during the Tribulation and He wants everybody to repent!

      Here are 4 examples as to how far God will go to save the unbeliever and His people. 😀

      1. You have the 2 witness who will proclaim Jesus during the 1st 3 and 1/2 yrs of this 7yr Tribulation. Rev.11:3

      2. You have Jews from the 12 tribes who become the 144,000 Messianic Jews who also proclaim Jesus in this time period. Rev.7:4; Rev.14:1-3

      3. You have the Tribulation Saints proclaiming Jesus during this time period. Rev.6:9-11; Rev.7:14

      4. You even have angels proclaiming the Gospel to the world and warning the world during this time period. Rev.14:6-10

      If you read Revelation it says men will blaspheme God for punishing them. Even when they know it is God they will still curse Him!

      Rev 16:9 – And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

      Rev 16:21 – And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

      Believe when I say that GOD will go to great lengths to make sure every one knows that it is Him punishing a Christ rejecting world during those 7 years. So by the end of the Tribulation, before His Glorious Appearing. Everyone who is still alive by the end of those 7 years will be without excuse to know and understand who GOD is.

      There will no longer be a lukewarm person. There will not be a gray area. Everyone will be either White or black. No gray!

      You are either gonna be on the left or on the right. There will be no middle to stand in @ the 2nd coming when they see Him coming in the clouds with great power and glory Rev.1:7.

      In the End God is not coming like a Thief of the Night because everyone will be aware of who God is.

      So the Thief in the Night will happen before the 7yr Tribulation when MANY in the WORLD will least expect it.

      There are many contradictions in a Post Trib belief. 🙁

      This is just one example of why Rapture and the 2nd coming passages are speaking of 2 different events.

      Peace and God Bless! 🙂

      • amigodana

        How about you show me this 7 year tribulation in scripture?

        • Iceman4Christ

          @ am.I.god.ana

          Sure I will show you. No problem. I truly love and care for you. I am sure God wants you to know. <3 😀

          Daniel 9:27 – And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one WEEK: and in the midst of the WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

          week in Daniel means:

          seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
          period of seven days, a week
          Feast of Weeks
          heptad, seven (of years)

          The same Word Week is used in Genesis 29:27-28

          Gen 29:27 – Fulfil her WEEK, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her WEEK: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.

          In the first half of this 7 yr Trib which is 3 1/2yrs.

          Rev 11:2-3 – But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

          In the 2nd half of this 7 yr Trib which is another 3 1/2yrs. Antichrist breaks his covenant.

          Dan 9:27 – And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

          Mat 24:15-16 – ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

          Rev 13:5 – And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

          Israel Flees into the wilderness for a Time, Times and half a Time.

          Rev 12:14 – And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

          So as you can see one week = 7 yrs.

          These years are also biblical years. Not Gregorian calendar years. example 42 months of 30 days each = 1,260 days

          So if you add 42 months + 42 months = 7 biblical years.

          or add 3 1/2yrs + 3 1/2yrs = 7 biblical years.

          or add Time, Times and half a time + Time, Times and half a time = 7 biblical yrs.

          or 1,260 days + 1,260 days = 7 biblical yrs.

          Hope this helps you in your study! 🙂

  • amigodana

    So, you are getting this from;

    (Daniel 9:27) “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

    “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:”

    Who is the He? Because you will see here;

    (Isaiah 42:6) “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;”

    Is not that verse a prophecy of Jesus? Was not Jesus given as the covenant?

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ am.I.god.ana

      Why do I even try with you? You are so lost! 🙁

      So now you are saying that Jesus is the one who causes the abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place?

      Did you not read all the scriptures?

      This is what Jesus said in Matthew

      Mat 24:15 – ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

      Jesus was referring to the Antichrist in Daniel 9:27 NOT HIMSELF!

      Dan 9:27 – And he (ANTICHRIST) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (ANTICHRIST) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

      Whoever is teaching you please stay away from them! This is why you are so misunderstanding the scripture.
      Be Holy Spirit filled and He will teach you in all things.

      Please stop being ignorant of Gods Holy Word.

      I am going to bed. I’ll check whatever crazy thing you have to say tomorrow. Good Night.

      • amigodana

        Lets look at this then;

        (Daniel 9:24) “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

        Does the Antichrist “finish the transgression?” Of course not. Can it be said that the Beast is the one who will “make an end of sins?” Obviously not. Does the Son of Perdition “make reconciliation for iniquity?” The answer is self-evident. Does the wicked one “seal up the vision and prophecy?” He does not. And does the Antichrist “anoint the most holy?” Of course not.

        The entire prophecy is JESUS CHRIST!

        (Daniel 9:27) “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

        (Isaiah 42:6) “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;”

        “give thee for a covenant of the people”

        Even the New Testament recognizes this;

        (Galatians 3:17) “And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.”

        “the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ”

        This 7 year tribulation has NO Scriptural support!!

        NO 7 year tribulation; NO Rapture!!

      • Heather

        iceman4christ, honestly amigodana may not be the one the Lord would have for you to reach right now. Your time has not been wasted. The Lord has simply used amigodana as a thorn, for your words to reach that someone else that is out there!
        God’s so AWESOME!

        • amigodana

          Heather, I have done nothing but give scripture to define scripture. Show me the sin in that. Does God not instruct us to go to the scripture and study it with each other! If what I show you in the scriptures does not curtail to your emotional need, then that is between you and God!

          I have done no man any injustice!!!

          • Iceman4Christ

            @ am.i.god.ana 🙄

            Heather is correct. You have no clue as to what you are looking at. You twist scripture and take it out of context. You are bad fruit. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. 🙁

            The Holy Spirit is not in you. If it was you wouldn’t be parading around in others Screen name to deceive others to make yourself sound or look good. What Holy Spirit filled believer would do that?

            Also you never answered the question about Rev. 16:15-16 you implied that there is no rapture because God did not take anybody to heaven in verse 16.

            Why did you ignored this part of the question!

            So are you implying that Rev. 16:16 is talking about the Church or believers?

            Verse 16 continues on to tell us where He gathers the armies of the world to do battle. This is NOT the gathering of the CHURCH.

            Verse 16 is not implying RAPTURE!

            Verse 16 is what Happens before the 2nd coming. He is gathering the Armies of the World to Armageddon = “the hill or city of Megiddo” This is where the Final Battle will take place.

            Also, if I come to your house AS A THIEF and take something from you without you being aware of it. Wouldn’t I be called a Thief?

            I am sure that would qualify me as a THIEF!

            You are just wrong in so many areas it is just sad! The only way to reach you is to let GOD deal with you and to keep you in prayer.

            You can send your hate filled comments. I really don’t care. It’s pointless to say anything to you. 🙁

        • Iceman4Christ

          Thanks Heather for your Spirit Filled encouragement! 😀

  • Heather

    Thats really messed up.

    • amigodana

      Just read what the scriptures say, PLEASE!!!!

      No 7-year tribulation!!!

      No Rapture!!!!

      You will change at the fiery trial!!!!

      Hopefully you will come to believe Christ, and not mans words.

      And before you say it, your right, don’t believe my words either. Just READ the TRUTH (The WORD of GOD)!

      Let scripture define scripture!

  • bremertonchristian

    The argument that mat 24 is only for end time Jews because it talks about the Sabbath and only Jews keep the Sabbath is lame. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy is a commandment not a part of the law. By your reasoning it’s ok to lie steal etc… It’s not God’s fault “christians” don’t keep the sabbath. Christian means Christ like. Most of you so called Christians don’t do anything Christ like. I won’t bake you a cake because homosexuality is a sin but I’ll watch football and Hollywood movies. Hypocrites and vipers.

    • MRH

      “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy is a commandment not a part of the law”

      Uhmm.. the ten commandments are indeed part of the Mosaic law 🙄

      FYI Jesus completely fulfilled the Mosaic law by his blood sacrifice 😀

      Eph 2:15 KJV – Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

      Lexicon :: Strong’s G3551 – nomos (law) = anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

      Lexicon :: Strong’s G1785 – entolē (commandment) = an order, command, charge, precept, injunction

      Lexicon :: Strong’s G1378 – dogma (ordinance) = doctrine, decree, ordinance

      P.S. Read Paul’s letters 💡 FYI We are no longer under law but grace 😉

  • bremertonchristian

    The argument that God is not going to give his bride a black eye before their wedding is lame. Tell that to all of the christians who have been tortured to death for Christ. Why didn’t he rapture them. Pre-trib cowards. Your so afraid of the anti-c you’ll believe anything. It’s not the wheat that gets taken its the terms and thrown into the fire. Do you really need a more explicit parable.

    • amigodana

      (1 Peter 4:12) “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:”

      (Mark 9:49) “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.”

      AMEN!!!!!!

    • MRH

      “It’s not the wheat that gets taken its the terms and thrown into the fire”

      FYI; wheat=saints=believers, tares=sinners=unbelievers 😉

      P.S. The rapture spares us not from tribulation but from the wrath. The mark of the beast does not occur during tribulation but during the wrath 🙂

    • amigodana

      (Matthew 13:30) “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

      Psalms 52:5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.

      bremertonchristian, I wouldn’t worry about MRH too much. He ignores parts of the bible, especially the parts that explain itself! And that the ones that are rooted out of the land will also be destroyed. If that is the rapture they believe in count me out. I don’t won’t to be destroyed when He takes anyone out of the land or dwelling place!

      He doesn’t understand the scriptures above when they explain that the ones that He plucks out of their dwelling place will be destroyed!

      • Iceman4Christ

        @am.I.god.ana.

        🙄

        Takes one to know one huh?

    • Iceman4Christ

      @ bremertonchristian

      😯 Prove it! you say all these things but how about backing it up with scripture to see if it is true!

      So God in Isaiah 26 have His cowardly people hide?

      Isa 26:20 ¶ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

      Should We ignore Gods promises to His believers concerning the Tribulation? Is Jesus a Liar?

      Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID in the day of the LORD’S anger.

      Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

      Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT they repent of their deeds.

      Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

      Before you make ignorant statements how about you do an in depth study about the topic. 💡

      Pre Trib Believers are more aware and ready for what is to come. We live in righteousness because we do not want to be caught unaware when Jesus does come! That is why we watch and hold on to The Lords promises. It has nothing to do with fear for our lives. Rather it is our family, friends and other people like yourself who are ignorant of what is going to happen.

  • john

    WHEN DOES THE LAST TRUMP BLOW? THATS WHEN IT IS ALL OVER. nitroman

    • amigodana

      (1 Corinthians 15:52) “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

    • Iceman4Christ

      When Christ says Come Up Here with a voice that sounds like a TRUMPET!

      Rev 4:1 ¶ After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the FIRST VOICE which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, COME UP hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

      🙂

  • Millions upon millions of people have died since Cain slew Able. Whether we are run over by a beer truck, die from disease or old age, or get our heads chopped off at the old chopping block isn’t going to make any difference. Death happens however, the trip wire is where the Bible says “we shall not all sleep”. There are no guarantees that any of us will wake up tomorrow morning on this side of heaven. Whichever way I leave this old dirt ball behind makes no difference to me. Jesus has promised me an eternal home in his presence…f-o-r-e-v-e-r! We need to be warning others of the eternal damnation that awaits them if they FAIL TO COMPLY.

    • MRH

      “Millions upon millions of people have died since Cain slew Able”

      Actually billions would be more correct. As for ‘not all sleep’, means some will be alive at the return. Could it be today’s generation? Regardless, if we are saved we will be in the rapture 😉

  • Heather

    MRH, I wanted to ask you about CERN. I have just started to learn more about it. It really blowsones mind, to learn about, the things the evil power grabbers are planning.From what I heard, they are planning to inject, or impllant a mind controling device (mark of the beast) to make the depopulated 500 million become slaves to the elite. And what is injected causes the remaing to beome, super human, transhumanan hybrids they are working on the DNA now. This sounds to me like the strong delusion so thhat they believe the lie that the Lord spoke of. They will be promised all kinds of lies if they just take the mark.

    I also remember you talking about all these evil leaders being demons hidden form.since they are planning such demonic things. What you said makes sense.

    • MRH

      “MRH, I wanted to ask you about CERN”

      @ Heather: I’m not certain with CERN, but yes our leaders are disguised demons. Or simply sold out souls for fame and fortune. Like many celebrities. And the evidence of whom they are is in their satanic signs and symbols. In any case, it’s all part of the diabolical NWO. And I’m not certain exactly what the delusion/lie is, but I suspect it involves the UFO/alien thing. As for the NWO goals; depopulation, enslavement. The first phase being global depopulation, most likely global nuclear holocaust. And scripture hints at such 😉

      Joe 2:30-31 KJV – And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

      Lexicon :: Strong’s H8490 – tiymarah (pillars) = pillar, column – palm-like spreading at top

      Doesn’t that sound like a description of mushroom clouds? And notice the plurality factor too.. ‘pillars’. Yes the day of the Lord will be terrible for all blind fools left behind. Did you ever see the movie Day After Tomorrow?

      Luk 21:25-26 KJV – And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

      Note: ‘the sea and the waves roaring’. Doesn’t this sound like mega-tsunamis? Well this stuff is also in their NWO agenda. In fact they telegraph their dark agendas through money and media. So how will they create mega tsunamis? Simple, through offshore underwater nuclear explosions. In fact this event is imaged on the new $100, through the common pyramid fold. Which also portrays 911 on the newer $20 (1996 design). Of course it’s all symbolic, hidden from the public eye.

      As for the following enslavement phase, the mark will be enforced on the chosen remnant. That way the elite few will be able to easily control them. Of course not all will accept the mark, and those ones will be beheaded.

      P.S. Contrary to popular opinion, the elite few have no desire to try and enslave the present huge population. It simply wouldn’t work, as many people would rebel. And the elite don’t want any large scale rebellion to deal with.

  • Sergeant Byerly

    Brother Geoffrey,

    I believe every word you said. You said you have 10-20 more reasons, though, so would you mind sharing some more of them?

    I ask because I am a relatively new believer in Christ Jesus (and an information sponge of a believer, at that), and I am still figuring out what I don’t know. When you respond, I hope you don’t mind if I check the Scriptures to verify what you’re saying.

    I just want our Savior to come back soon. I’m ready to go home, I’m tired of this broken world

    Maranatha!

    • You should ALWAYS check the Scriptures on anything and everything I say. I certainly have been wrong before and will be wrong again. Having said that, I have devoted the past 25 years of my life to studying and understanding Bible doctrine, and that is what I teach. Perhaps its time to do a follow-up to this article with reasons 11-20….thanks for writing!

    • Bro. Nick Nicholas

      Sergeant Byerly – Geoffrey Grider gave you very sound Biblical advise.
      It is ALL about what “the Lord God Almighty” says – IN CONTEXT – in HIS WORDS, the Holy Bible:
      “… let God be true,
      but every man a liar …”
      (Romans 3:4, KJB)

      Those who are truly “born again” believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” must ALWAYS remember that “the truth” is found only in “the law of God” – which is “the word of the LORD”, the Holy Bible, KJV

      The following Verses from “the word of the LORD” are some that have been most helpful in my growing faith in “the truth” which is only completely found in the Holy Bible, KJV
      Ask “the only wise God” to teach you – Psalm 119:18, 119:11, 119:133
      Proverbs 3:5 | Romans 10:17 | Isaiah 28:9-10, 26:3-4, 55:8-9 | Jeremiah 32:27
      Proverbs 30:5-6, 22:17-21
      2 Timothy 2:15 | Acts 17:11
      Learn and always remember the lesson given in 1 Kings 1-32

      And most importantly Psalm 115:1
      .

  • bremertonchristian

    Geoff Have you studied the feasts of the Lord? If Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts during His first coming don’t you suppose there is some connection between the fall feasts and His second coming? Watch Mark Biltz Feasts of the Lord. We need to stop interpreting the Bible with a western mind set. Also, will you ever receive a mark or implant in your hand or forehead? If not, why not? Please explain. I sincerely hope I don’t offend you, but I fear for lukewarm christians who will take the mark because they believe in eternal security. I brother of mine said he would take the mark because he has eternal security and he doesn’t want to go hungry. He truly believes that. Also “he that endures to the end” could be talking about tribulation survivors that did not take the mark. I know a lot of non christians who distrust gov. so much they will “never” take the mark and try to live off grid. It’s sad when “christians” say they will gamble with their soul on a doctrine despite black and white evidence that ALL who take the mark will join the anti-c and false prophet in the lake of fire. I love you brother Geoff, keep on being the kind of Christian I want to be. Yours sincerely and respectfully Curt.

    • MRH

      “but I fear for lukewarm christians who will take the mark because they believe in eternal security”

      “Also “he that endures to the end” could be talking about tribulation survivors that did not take the mark”

      @ bremertonchristian: Firstly, NO Christian will take the mark. Why? Because the rapture precedes the end, when depopulation and enslavement prevail. Secondly, the Gospels were written with a pre-church flavor. So that the words of Jesus always reflect the law, since he was living under the law. It wasn’t until Pentecost that Christianity began 😉

  • William

    Thanks Grider for your wonderful article. While you were compiling this article,I had a lot of trouble with my brethren from Seventh Day Adventist church who do not believe in pre-tribulation rapture. I update my brethren regularly about end time events, majoring on Israel and the world as well as the antichrist and false prophet who I have long suspected to be from the Vatican. Now, your article came in handy to help me stop arguing with the brethren from SDA. I have given them the article,if they cannot accept it, then i have told them to wait and witness the real events which will happen very very soon so as to prove for themselves. God Bless you bro. I come from Kenya, I usually publish on my Facebook page, I now have you article on my page, thanks (william ochieng)

  • Well, Geoffrey. I haven’t had time to read through all the comments and replies, but reading through the original article, all I can see as a theologian with a particular focus on understanding the New Testament from it’s Jewish perspective is the same kind of lies and distortions and perversions of Scripture and ripping verses out of context and false logic that I see in every single argument I have ever come across from the pre-Trib crowd. There were a few points in your article that were new to me, but they follow exactly the same pattern of distortion and deception that I have dealt with in my book Rapture Rupture which I urge you to read (you can buy on Amazon here -http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Rupture-Nathanael-Lewis/dp/1905691289/ ). Lest you think I am just in it for money, on proof of receipt from you Geoff, I will either refund you the money or send all my profits from the sale to a charity or NGO supporting persecuted Christians (I am a trustee of one such organisation but I am more than happy to give to others). You are spreading and formenting a false doctrine, a deception of demons on this issue, I’m afraid, which will play a huge role in the last days mass apostasy among evangelicals who cling to it, as happened in China in the 40’s and 50’s.

    Let me just deal, as a theologian, with the few points that are new to me, namely the claim about angels and the rapture, and the quite frankly completely historically inaccurate comments about Paul and Matthew. Firstly, in the angels point, you make a fundamental error of logic that I see pre-Tribbers use all the time, one that says that if something isn’t mentioned in a particular passage, therefore that thing cannot be there at the events referred to. It is a variation on a line that liberal theologians use all the time – eg, ‘Jesus didn’t say anything to condemn homosexuality, so he was OK with it, and it was Paul who bailed to the culture of the day and condemned it’, Doubtless, if Paul hadn’t mentioned communion in 1 Cor 11, liberals would claim that communion wasn’t practiced by Paul and his churches. Absence of evidence is not proof / evidence of absence!

    Let’s get down to some particulars. First of all, I notice how slyly (maybe not deliberately, but it’s rather sly, nonetheless) that here you carefully cite the reference to the rapture that doesn’t mention angels, and avoid 1 Thessalonians 4 which does talk of angelic activity at the rapture (you actually quote the bit that mentions angelic activity elsewhere).

    Oh, and your final point is easily explained in a biblical post-trib position – the saints are resurrected in the first resurrection aka rapture that happens at the time of Jesus second coming (see Revelation 20) live on earth with a resurrected body. In Matthew 24.22 Jesus specifically teaches that the Tribulation will be so bad that if those days were not cut short, no-one at all will survive, but that God in his mercy will cut those days short for the sake of Jesus’ disciples, meaning that many unbelievers who have not undergone the resurrection at Jesus’ return will still have earthly bodies and suffer death, although share in blessings that restore the lifespans of the pre-flood population. Simple!

    So on to Matthew and Paul. First of all, you misstate or falsely assume the meaning of the word ‘mystery’ in Paul. He NEVER said he was revealing it for the first time to the Corinthians. When Paul uses the term mystery elsewhere, he doesn’t use it to mean something that is exclusive revelation to him, generally. For instance, when he talks of the ‘mystery’ of the gospel and incarnation and godliness, he referred not to something new, but the fundamental doctrines that had been around before he was a Christian. In Romans 11 he uses it, not of something newly revealed, but as something hidden in the Old, the culmination of an argument that cited many Old Testament passages as evidence. Similarly Romans 16 – mystery is something that had been previously foretold by the prophets, not something brand new. in 1 Corinthians 2, it is something hidden, not brand new, but rather newly revealed not to Paul, but to the church as a whole. Similarly in Ephesians 1 – mystery is something previously planned but only now executed. Even when, in chapter 3, he does talk about personal revelation to him, it is the personal revelation of something similarly revealed to the other apostles, not something brand new to him. Similarly in Ephesians 5 and 67, mystery is not something personally revealed to him, but something previously hidden now brought to light, including the gospel. Similarly in Colossians 1 where Paul specifically says that the mystery is now disclosed to God’s people, not that it was a new personal revelation to him. You get the picture. You are doing what Pre-tribbers always do, take a verse out of context, append your comments and then treat your comments as holy truth. I challenge you publicly here. Where does Paul say in 1 Corinthians 15 that he was telling them something personally revealed to him, something new? Nowhere. He says he is showing them something, but I can show anyone something that could be new to them, or a reminder of something that they have known at least in part, and not be showing them something brand new that is a personal revelation to me. You are twisting and distorting scripture, and it will lead to destruction because those who believe the lie will not be prepared for the times coming that Jesus and the apostles spent a long time warning us about, and THEY ARE COMING SOON as you rightly point out in general.

    (I should just say as a scholar, too, that your bald assertion ‘Nearly every bible chronology places the date of the writing of Matthew at around 35 AD, and the writing of Corinthians at around 66 AD.’ is utterly false. It would be more accurate to say that virtually every Bible Chronology places Matthew at 70AD or after. I happen to disagree, and think that 40’s or 50’s is more accurate, but we just don’t know. What we do know is that 1 Corinthians wasn’t written in AD66 (and more to the point, 1 Thessalonians that also teaches about the same event had to have been written in AD49 or at the latest early 50’s) it was written in about AD 56. What’s more, the timing of the actual writing is utterly irrelevant, because a) Matthew was writing down teaching that Jesus said earlier, and b) Paul, once you understand the context, as we shall see, is quite explicit, that his teaching came from Jesus’ teaching).

    So, the other rapture passage from Paul is actually explicit that he was not teaching something new, if you understand the idiom. When Paul wants to directly cite Jesus rather than give his own teaching, he is well able to make it explicit, as he does in 1 Corinthians 7, where he carefully distinguishes in his teachings on divorce and marriage between what Jesus taught in the gospels and what he taught, by using ‘command of the Lord’ and ‘the Lord, not I’ contrasted with ‘I, not the Lord’. Similarly in 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul explicitly anchors his teaching about the rapture with Jesus’ teaching. He said ‘According to the Lord’s word we tell you…. ‘ and goes on to tell of the rapture. Paul was a rabbi who would have used rabbinical methods of citation to refer to Jesus’ teaching. That method was to cite enough of a verse or passage to identify it. Paul talks of this rapture event as having the following elements – Lord comes from heaven, catches saints up to clouds of glory – shouted command – trumpet call. Look through the entirety of the bible, let alone just the teaching of Jesus in the gospels, and you will find these elements together in just one place, clearly indicating which teaching of Jesus Paul was referring to – Matthew 24.30-31, where Jesus describes his visible second coming and explicitly places this event ‘After the tribulation’ – or in latin ‘Post-Tribulation’. So you see, Paul, Jesus and the New Testament leave no legitimate room for any pre-Trib rapture position. They are utterly explicit in teaching a post tribulation rapture. Geoff, I publicly challenge you to repent and return to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles and stop teaching this demonic delusion. You are both deceived and deceiving. You are hastening people on a road to destruction and apostasy. Satan has been deceiving you and many like minded evangelicals for 200 years, fermenting this deception deliberately to render them unfit to face the Tribulation. It is time to flee and recant such delusions before TIME RUNS OUT.

    Jesus and the apostles over and over taught that not just the Jews, but the entire church will go through the Tribulation. For instance, as well as in their New Testament writings, the 12 apostles produced a kind of church manual for the Gentile churches called ‘Didache’. It’s full title translates ‘The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles of Our Lord to the GENTILES’. The book was, understandably, immensely popular in the early church and nearly made it into the New Testament (it very usefully shows how to distinguish between true teachers and prophets and hucksters, something that the US church could well do with learning). If you look at this writing of the apostles to the GENTILES, they made absolutely none of these ridiculous dispensationalist distinctions. When they taught about the last days, they were absolutely explicit in following Jesus’ teaching and applied it to the Gentiles, not just the Jews. They said that the church would go through the entire reign of the anti-Christ.

    • Heather

      Nathaniel, in light of how you view scripture, do you feel an urgency to help lead the lost to
      the Lord Jesus Christ?

      • What has that got to do with the price of bread? Look, I’ve spent 12 years in a church that at the start was really into evangelism. We had to go out on the streets and evangelize, but it was part of a cult. I’ve had to deal with horrific emotional fall out. The Mormons and the JW’s go out with zeal to evangalize. Levels of zeal in evangelism says nothing directly about the doctrinal correctness or otherwise of a doctrine or belief system.

  • So, to those of you who want to find out the truth about what the bible teaches about the end days and the rapture, my books is out there. http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Rupture-Nathanael-Lewis/dp/1905691289/

    In the book, I expose the Satanic lies of the pre-trib movement by dissecting Tim Lahaye’s chart of ‘irrefutable proofs’, somewhat similar to the one in this article, with sound bible teaching, not the perversions of the pre-trib lie.

    I show how John 14 is not even referring to the return of Jesus, let alone constitute a ‘proof’ of a separate rapture event. I show how to read John 14 in context of Jesus teaching in John’s gospel, not the a-contextual distortion of the pre-trib crowd.

    I show how utterly wrong the pre-trib teaching is on ‘not under wrath’. It has no reference to the Tribulation in any way shape or form. You are under a strong satanic delusion if you think it does.

    I go through EVERY SINGLE ‘thief in the night’ passage in the New Testament, and show with context how EACH AND EVERY one has the same basic meaning and utterly refutes the pre-trib position.

    In something I haven’t seen taught anywhere else, I also show how Paul got his teaching about the dead being raised before the living in the rapture from the actual teaching of Jesus’ about the last days.

    I also show how when Paul writes of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, he assumes a post-trib position in which the church has suffered huge loss with many martyrs and only a few are left alive, in accord with the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24.22.

    If you have pastors or friends or family who believe the Satanic delusion about the pre-trib rapture and are complacent about the future, then buy the book for them. It is probably the most hard-hitting and theologically sound book out there. Jesus warned that ‘only those who endure to the end will be saved’. How will people like you or your friends and pastors prepare to endure if they are deceived by the lie that says they will escape? As Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5 ‘When people say ‘Peace! Peace’ then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labour pains begin. And there will be no escape’. Just like the false prophets of old said ‘Peace, peace’ to Israel leading to their destruction, so these deceived peddlers of an eschatological prosperity gospel – for that is exactly what this is – are deceiving God’s people to their destruction.

    Millions of evangelicals will apostasize and be lost for eternity because they have believed this lie and were not prepared and so will deny their Lord and Saviour and be damned – because Jesus warned that those who deny him, he will deny before his Father in heaven. Remember, Jesus said ‘only those who endure to the end will be saved’.

    God Willing, I will soon have an updated version out that will also refute the lies about early church fathers teaching the pre-trib rapture which I am sick and fed up of hearing from the falsehood peddlers of the pre-trib crowd. They distort the early church fathers just like the they do scripture.

    Folks, for two hundred years, nearly, Satan has been foisting this delusion on the evangelical world in preparation for the time of the anti-christ and apostasy. The time of his reign is close. It should probably be measured in months, not years. TIME IS RUNNING OUT. Your families and friends and churches will not escape, wherever they are. You have a duty of care to yourselves and those close to you to find out the truth. Find it here. God Bless
    http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Rupture-Nathanael-Lewis/dp/1905691289/

    • Iceman4Christ

      Nathan it sounds to me that all you are interested in is to make a profit. Not to help teach what the Prophets spoke of.

      Instead of pushing your book and trying to fleece the church here on this blog or any where else. Why not share the word for free!

      Give an example of false teaching by saying why it is false and show how you read and interpret the word.

      💡 Why not start with the Thief in the night! Show us according to scripture what it really says.

      Then show what the last trump really is. 🙂

      If you want me to buy your book then show me what you know. Don’t tell me to just go buy it and give a quick summary of what is in it.

      • Firstly, if I was in this to make a profit, I would a) instead of spending lots of my time working to save and help persecuted Christians in Pakistan, I would spend lots of time promoting it, and b) I wouldn’t be putting a portion of every sale to help persecuted Christians in Pakistan and elsewhere.
        Secondly, for you to accuse me of being it for profit without a scintilla of evidence is slanderous and deeply un-Christlike – and particularly ironic given the millions that certain Pre-Trib authors rake in, and the select club of scholars who make money out of it.

        I’ve shown in another post today what ‘thief in the night’ really says.

  • Hello Geoffrey,
    You trip over yourself in your first use of Scripture in this article. Titus 2:13 “looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great Divine One and Savior Yeshua Messiah,”
    The appearance of the glory of Yahovah is our blessed hope, as Joel 3:16 proclaims, “Yahovah also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but Yahovah will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Titus 2:13 is a second coming scripture, just as is Joel 3. I see no reason to read any further in your article, since you did not rightly divide the first scripture you mentioned.

  • john

    GLAD TO HEAR SOMEONE PROCLAIM GODS NAME…………….GOD IS ONLY A TITLE LIKE BOSS OR CAPTAIN…………..GOD SAID TO PROCLAIM HIS NAME. SATAN CANNOT DIVERT OUR PRAYERS IF WE ADDRESS HIM BY NAME. WITH THE WORLD GOING TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET………..IT’S HAPPY TO HEAR OTHERS WITH HOPE AND FAITH AS I READ HERE. SOON WE WILL SEE JESUS THE CHRIST COMING IN GREAT CLOUDS IN THE SKY COMING TO TAKE US OUT OF THE COMING MESS THIS WORLD IS LEADING INTO. JOHN NITROMAN

  • I’ll right away clutch your rss as I can not to find
    your email subscription link or newsletter service.
    Do you have any? Please allow me realize so that I could subscribe.
    Thanks.

  • Debra Reed

    i believe we are the generation to see the rapture, but even if we are not, I do believe that it is separate from the Second Coming as scripture proves. But we are to always be watching and anticipating the Lord’s return and live in hopeful expectation that we will be ready when it happens.

    • MRH

      Debra Reed, the rapture is the first stage unto the holy return, the glorious appearing is the second stage. The bible has all the prophetic keys, but requires deep study 😉

  • Heather

    It amazes me how mid and post rapture believers think we can prepare ourselves to go through the horrible tribulation that is to come. NO ONE has any idea how bad it’s going to be. God’s wrath is viewd as being after the tribulation. If it’s after the tribulation, (which it’s not) then what is God’s purpose in there being 7 years of tribulation.
    Jesus stated himself that right after the AC claims to be God that;
    Matthew 24 :21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    In believing in a pre-tribulation rapture, Christians have an URGENCY go get as many who are lost saved before it’s too late. Where is the urgency if one is post trib?

    • Bro. Nick Nicholas

      Heather – It is interesting that there are more and more folks that are making categorical statements about what will occur and when during the Biblically Prophesied coming events – and more and more often using unpleasant and/or very condescending language against/about those of us that dare to disagree with them
      – all the while paying LITTLE – IF ANY – ATTENTION to that which is written in “the word of the LORD”:
      Ҧ Be not wise in thine own eyes:
      fear the LORD, and depart from evil.”
      (Prov 3:7, KJB)

      “Be of the same mind one toward another.
      Mind not high things,
      but condescend to men of low estate.
      Be not wise in your own conceits.”
      (Romans 12:16, KJB)

      “Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge.
      Knowledge puffeth up,
      but charity edifieth.
      And if any man think that he knoweth any thing,
      he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”
      (1 Cor 8:1-2, KJB)

      – – – – – – –

      I am personally finding what A.W. Tozer wrote over 50 years ago is becoming ever more true in my personal life. I live in ‘Amerika’ – which is more and more rapidly becoming openly hostile to “the Lord God Almighty” – and to ‘Biblical CHRISTianity’ – and to modern “Israel” – and to “the Jews”.
      My closest ‘Brother in Christ Jesus’ is an itinerant, non-denominational, Biblically sound Pastor in Kenya, and he tells me that the same is true there, and a street evangelist in New Zealand says that it is the same there also.

      – – – – – – –

      The Loneliness of the ‘Biblical CHRISTian’ (A re-titled and edited Excerpt)

      The loneliness of the ‘Biblical CHRISTian’ results from his walk with “the LORD God” in an increasingly anti-GOD world, a walk that must
      often take him away from the fellowship of the majority who say that they are ‘Christians’ – as well as from those of the unregenerate world.
      His GOD-given instincts cry out for companionship with others of his kind, others who can understand his longings, his aspirations, his
      absorption in the love of “the Lord Jesus Christ”; and because within his circle of friends there are so very “few in number” who share his
      inner experiences, understandings, and spiritual desires – he is forced to walk alone.

      The unsatisfied longings of the Old Testament Prophets for human understanding caused them to cry out in their complaint – and even “our
      Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” Himself suffered in the same way.

      The man or woman who has truly passed on into the Divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him.
      He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme object of his interest, so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of
      noisy religious shoptalk – for this he earns the reputation of being dull and over-serious – so he is avoided and the gulf between him and
      society widens.

      He searches for friends upon whose garments he can detect the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia out of ‘the Ivory Palaces’, and finding
      few – if any – he, like Mary- the mother of our Lord, keeps these things in his heart.

      It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon “the Lord God Almighty”. His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in
      “the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy” that which he can find nowhere else.

      ————————————————————
      Modified text from –
      “Man – The Dwelling Place of God,” Chapter 39: “The Saint Must Walk Alone” – by A. W. Tozer
      – Original @ http://www.crossroad.to/Bible_studies/sermons/devotions/loneliness.htm
      .

    • The answer is simple. Purification. Separating the wheat from the chaff, the true church, the true bride of Christ from, if you like, the harlot of Babylon. And besides, the tribulation is not so much from God, it is the terrible times as people rebel and wars and economic disaster and tyranny take place. It is the collapse of society that has abandoned God’s laws, as passages such as 2 Timothy 3 tell us.

      As for the issue of only pre-trib rapture giving Christians an urgency to get people saved before it’s too late, actually, isn’t the Pre-Trib position the one that can decrease urgency because there is a second chance, a get out clause. After all, they can get saved after the rapture and become Tribulation saints. Is the urgency really about the true gospel, or is it because you don’t want family and friends to go through the Tribulation?

      Actually, if any view carries urgency, it is the Post-Trib, because a) when the Tribulation comes, people could be so caught up in survival, including Christians, that opportunities will be scarce and many will die, or will take the mark of the beast and so be damned, and also b) because in a Post-Trib scenario THERE ARE NO SECOND CHANCES, unlike the Pre-Trib scenario.

  • MRH

    Heather: The end time trouble to come is also a divided event, and the rapture is the division factor between; tribulation, wrath. Anyway, the bible contains all end time prophetic keys, but you still seem to be wandering and wondering; “Will I escape the terrible things to come, and stand before God in holy fashion?”

    P.S. Neither the tribulation nor wrath can be prepared for, and only the wrath are we saved from! Everyone alive at the time will suffer tribulation! The dead will only face their judgment! If saved, then heaven awaits them. If unsaved, then the GWT awaits them. No true believer will face the GWT! Comprehend?

  • NITRO

    THE RAPTURE IS TO TAKE OUT ALL THE GOOD PEOPLE THAT BELONGS TO JESUS CHRIST BEFORE THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COMES. A DARK AND GLOOMY DAY OF JUDGEMENT SUCH AS THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN BEFORE…………WHAT KIND OF A GOD WOULD ALLOW GOOD PEOPLE TO DIE ALONG SIDE ALL THE EVIL SINNERS? AFTER THE RAPTURE…..ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE.
    UNLESS THOSE DAYS WERE CUT SHORT………NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED………FIRE IS RESERVED FOR THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT. THIS MEANS GOD IS GONG TO START OVER AGAIN LIKE HE DID AT THE GREAT FLOOD OF NOAH. BUT BECAUSE OF HIS CHOSEN ONES……..THOSE DAYS WILL BE CUT SHORT. START COUNTING EXACTLY 1260 DAYS FROM THE TIME THE ANTICHRIST SIGNS A 7 YEAR TRIAL PERIOD WITH THE JEWS…………..IN THE MIDDLBE OF DANIELS 70 TH WEEK OF YEARS (HEPTADS) THAT COVENANT WILL BE BROKEN ENDING THE CLAIM OF “PEACE AND SECURITY” JESUS DIED AT THE YEAR 483 HOLDING OFF THE LAST 7 YEARS WHICH IS THE BOOK OF REVELATION. THAT WAS DANIELS 69TH HEPTAD ALLOWING THE DAY OF GRACE PAUL TALKED ABOUT IN HIS LETTERS TO THE GALATIANS, TIMOTHY CORINTHIANS ETC. WHICH IS FOR US GENTILES TO BE GRAFTED INTO CHRISTS RAPTURE AND OTHER GROUP WHO HAVE WHITENED THEIR ROBES THAT CAME THOUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL GUIDE US THORUGH THE TRIBULATION PERIOD. PAUL SAYS…….”I TELL YOU A SECRET……..NEVER BEFORE TAUGHT.! WE ARE NOT ALL GOING TO PETRA.

    • MRH

      NITRO: Two spiritual kingdoms are still being formed; heavenly (holy, church, wheat, believers, God), earthly (unholy, world, tares, unbelievers, Satan). The formation factor began at the ancient garden, and ends at the future harvest. The rapture prevails at the holy return, followed by the end of the world.

      As for the coming great tribulation, there have been many such terrible tribulations throughout history. Consider the crusades and reformation periods. Also the holocaust, and other more modern mass slaughters, WW’s, 911, and including ISIS rampage. The main difference with the great tribulation will be the great deception factor.

      Mat 24:21-24 KJV – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

      But even so, Paul tells us not to worry 😉

      2Th 2:1-3 KJV – Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      2Th 2:6-8 KJV – And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

      646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, “leave, depart,” which is derived from 575 /apó, “away from” and 2476 /histémi, “stand”) – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, “a leaving, from a previous standing.”

      P.S. The Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and the church is the restraining force. Therefore Satan cannot unleash his full fury until the church has departed the planet 😀

      Rev 12:10-12 KJV – And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

      • bremertonchristian

        MRH most pre-tribbers don’t notice, I wonder if you do? Notice in one of their favorite pre-trib verses when Paul sais “now we beseech you bretheren, by THE COMING… notice (the coming)… singular, as in there is only one Second Coming. But somehow they say “this is only the rapture and not the second coming”, even though Paul explains what he is talking about right from the beginning of his statement. Also where is it written that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. I only know of one person who restrains satan, Michael. I’m not saying God cant restrain him, but how do they justify this reasoning?

        • MRH

          bremertonchristian: According to scripture there are two stages in the return event; for saints (subtle, fast, invisible), with saints (dramatic, slow, visible). The world witnesses both stages, but quite differently.

          In the first stage (after tribulation) they only see the rapture results (missing, chaos). In the second stage (after wrath) they experience the full blown heavenly appearance with all the saints (church, angels, etc).

          The rapture divides tribulation from wrath. Actually the resurrection spans both salvation phases. The day of Christ in heaven, and the day of the Lord on earth. Same event, different locations (heaven, earth).

          As for the Holy Spirit being the restrainer, absolutely. Remember we are saved from coming wrath, not any tribulation effect. And the wrath is Satan’s free reign on earth, ending with the harvest, and destruction of the evil empire.

          As for Michael, he is the prince and also archangel, and wars with Satan and his angels in heaven, wherein Satan and his angels lose the battle. And then are cast out of heaven unto earth.

          P.S. Unfortunately the bible doesn’t detail end time prophetic wonders, but rather just offers us vague glimpses to ponder 🙁

        • MRH

          “I only know of one person who restrains satan, Michael”

          bremertonchristian: The bible doesn’t imply or state such I’m afraid 😉

          Dan 12:1 KJV – And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

  • NITROMAN

    WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS………….THE CHURCH IS THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT IS KEEPING SATAN FROM UNLEASHING ALL HIS POWER UPON MANKIND AND UNTIL THE CHURCH IS TAKEN OUT OF THIS WORLD………..SATAN CANNOT COME? IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING? I THOUGHT THE PARACLEASIA WAS THE HOLEY SPIRIT OF TRUCTH NOT THE CHURCH……………..THERE ARE MANY CHURCHES…..THEY CANNOT ALL BE CORRECT AND I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF MANY HOLY SPIRITS OR PARACLEATES. JOHN NITROMAN

    • MRH

      NITRO: There is only ONE true CHURCH, and it’s not of the many religious sects 😉

      1Co 12:13, 27 KJV – For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. … Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

      As for Satan, he’s already here, also his angels. Whom did you think owns and controls the world? 😉

      Luk 4:5-6 KJV – And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

      Eph 6:12 KJV – For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

      However he’s being restrained nonetheless by God. Consider Job, and how God tempted Satan to torment him 😉

      Job 1:12 KJV – And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

      Job 2:6 KJV – And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

      Likewise we are all under varied trials and tribulations 😉

      2Ti 3:12-13 KJV – Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

      As for the many sects, they are all false temples. Exactly as Jesus predicted 😉

      Luk 21:8 KJV – And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

      P.S. Satan can’t do as he pleases, only as God allows him to do. And in the end Satan will have free reign, once Gods presence is gone from earth. However that doesn’t mean people can’t be saved anymore. Just that the world will be completely dark then.

      Amo 5:18 KJV – Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

      • Iceman4Christ

        @ MRH

        You know MRH, I am sure you Love the Lord and you are sincere in what you say about the Tribulation. However, I know you are incorrect when it comes to the timing of the rapture and who enters the millennium.

        I agree about The NWO, The Illuminati, CERN and all those other things.

        The church will NOT go into the Tribulation. It is the Time of Jacobs trouble. The ones that will enter into the Tribulation are those Christians who were not ready and where not Holy Spirit filled. The Jews and the non believing world will also enter into the Tribulation. Only those who become believers during the Tribulation will either be martyred or endure to the end will be saved. The non believers who survive till the end or received the mark will be cast into the lake of fire.

        Its so simple. Revelation is not a hard book to understand. There are so many hints of this in the Old Testament.

        🙂

        • MRH

          “However, I know you are incorrect when it comes to the timing of the rapture and who enters the millennium .. I agree about The NWO, The Illuminati, CERN and all those other things .. Its so simple. Revelation is not a hard book to understand. There are so many hints of this in the Old Testament”

          @ Iceman4Christ: Maybe yes maybe no, time will tell 😉 As for things, I’m only going by what the bible tells me. The only thing we do know is that the church is raptured at the return (noted throughout the epistles), which occurs before the end of the world phase begins (1 Cor 15:20-26). The latter isn’t going to happen overnight either.

          As for the tribulation, one thing is for certain. If the church sees the third temple rise, then the pre-trib theory can be safely discarded. Which would leave the mid and post trib theories to ponder. If the church is still present by tribulation, then the mid-trib theory can be tossed out too. And if the church endures the tribulation with no mark of the beast evident, then goodbye post-trib, which would leave no more popular end time theories. But wouldn’t matter, as the church will not experience the wrath.

          Regarding the NWO, they have serious agendas ahead! I just saw the trailer for the new San Andreas movie, and it is downright scary. Total devastation of the West Coast, where I live. As well Nevada is doomed by the Hoover Dam destruction. Also the East Coast has a major strike coming to NYC. Then there is the Yellowstone volcano horror. All such mega disasters would wipe America clean off the map overnight. But how will the elite accomplish such horrors, being that HAARP was supposedly shut down last year?

          As for Revelation being simple? If you say so, then please explain exactly without any speculation, every single detail of every vision in the book. Then present your facts to the bible academies 💡 😉 Fact is, even the greatest of bible scholars can’t unravel that book. All they can do is offer varied theories, which may be wrong or right. And that’s all either of us can do likewise. Same with OT prophecy, it’s simply not cut and dried. For if it was, then so could the Lords return be predicted.

  • Jim4409

    It is often a lot of words that lead the reader astray from the simple short teaching of God. The mind becomes fuddled and human reasoning steps in where only the Spiritual can understand.

    It is not hard to understand Gods message to ALL men. The Bible is written to the sinner and the believer for every day, year, and time. To say otherwise is to subtract from the Word of God and to forget the purpose and source of the Bible. High-minded-ness leads many astray

    In order to understand the Word of God it merely takes a clean slate, a sincere heart, some prayer and reading (read it again! and again!) to understand that the so-called “rapture” happens when the Lord returns. The Bible teaches that this happens “at the last day.” This last day is at the end of the Great Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God is poured out on the unrepentant. (Read the KJ Bible, it’s in there!)

    The Great Tribulation = Satan’s wrath on man and the world. Living Christians will still be on earth and millions will be martyred.

    The Wrath of God = When God orders the 144,000 (who are still on the earth at this time) sealed in their foreheads. They will preach the Gospel to those who have refused to repent and are enduring the Wrath God is pouring out on those people and on the sin tainted world. (God doesn’t rapture everyone out leaving the lost with no hope! How cruel would that be?) Read the BIBLE and pray to understand, When God sees that you are faithful in trusting Him ALONE he will honor your prayer.

    Revelation 6:11 the tribulation ends and preparation for the Wrath begins. The wrath begins in earnest in Revelation 8:6. Too many people fail to recognize that there is a huge difference in the Tribulation and the Wrath.

    Revelation is not simply a chronological order of things, but lays out sort of an outline and later chapters give a more DETAILED view of those same events. Those who God has given eyes to see will find this to be so all through the book of Revelation. For example compare Rev. 6:14 to 16:20; 6:9 to 12:11 and 20:4; 11:16 to 19:4; 7:3 to 9: and 14:1; etc., etc., etc..

    Use the King James Bible, the one that has led souls to Jesus for over four hundred years. For those using one of the counterfeits there is no telling what kind of doctrines and beliefs one can be infected with.
    Remember, God is either Lord or He is not. If He is Lord He is first. He is trusted first and last and He is asked first and last. So I’d think twice before going to a book or commentary. Wait on the Lord His timing is always best and He builds our knowledge and wisdom precept upon precept, stone upon stone. If you want your prayers for wisdom and knowledge answered I’d suggest some time in prayer on other subjects first.
    May the Lord bless all who seek His wisdom with a sincere and humble heart.

    • Iceman4Christ

      @Jim4409

      If the rapture happens when the Lord Returns who gets raptured and who get thrown into the lake of fire?

  • Errol B. Guevarra

    May I warn them that

    1. Speak blatant words,
    Matthew 12:
    36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified (obtain salvation by grace), and by thy words thou shalt be condemned (thrown into hell fire). (KJV)

    and

    2. Resist an open rebuke and correction:
    Leviticus 19:
    17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart:thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. (KJV)

    2 Timothy 3:16-17
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (KJV)

    Therefore, choose your words carefully and consider.

    God bless you and the ministry entrusted to you Sir Geoffrey.

  • NITROMAN

    JEHOVAH ELOHIM GOD IS A GOD OF PURPOSE……..WHAT PURPOSE IS ACCOMPLISHED BY MARRYING TWO GAYS?? NO CHILDREN! IF FACT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT IF TWO MEN ARE FOUND TOGETHER OR WITH ANIMALS THEY ARE TO BE KILLED. THE NEXT THING THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IS………..SOME GUY WILL TRY TO MARRY HIS FEMALE DOG. OR SHEEP. I’VE HEARD OF PUTTING YOUR PET IN YOUR WILL, BUT A MARRIEGE LICENSE ?? FIDO WAS NOT MEANT TO BE A COMPANION………..JUST A PET. SO HOW DID WOMEN DNA COMBINE WITH NEPHILIM? IT MUST HAVE MADE GOD VERY MAD. SO HE DESTROYED THIS EARTH BY FLOOD. ARE WE TRYING HIS PATIENCE AGAIN THIS DAY? 8 CHILDREN KILLED BY A MANIAC WITH A BUTCHER KNIFE! IN AUSTRALIA MANOORA. WHATS NEXT ? ?

  • Benny

    In fact there are so many contradictions here, I don’t have the time to get into them all. Mr. Grider, why are you so defensive and hysterical? Is that the nature of Christ? Now let’s calm down. People usually write this way when they have something to hide and/or they have a niggling doubt and dread that what they believe may actually not be entirely true.

    In #3 above you said “…Christians are never promised an earthly home, but an heavenly one. The Jews and Tribulation saints were never promised that, they get instead a home on the Earth.”

    Are “Tribulation Saints” NOT Christians????? Is beheading the price of being unrepentant/lukewarm? If so how about the early apostles all but 1 were matyred. Did God not love them? Does God love you more?

    Also if we are not to look for the Antichrist (since we will be caught up), why do you allow articles guessing who the Antichrist is – http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=30736 only later to put a note there suggesting we are looking for Christ not the antichrist? Really?

    Another question in Mt 25:1-13 – Parable of the virgins – where does it say those virgins left behind had a second chance? Did the Bridegroom come and open the door for them again after they repented?

    Do you believe in the power of Jesus to hide (Zeph 2:3) you here on earth as He did for Noah and Lot here on this earth even in the midst of judgement similar to the Flood? As in the Days of Noah…. was Noah raptured to heaven before the Flood?

    I find that most pre-trib “rapturerists” actually lack faith in Jesus’s power to protect. They love themselves and their lives too much to “…overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony loving not their lives to death.”

    Again, tell this pre-trib concept to our christian brothers and sisters being crucified and beheaded for their faith in Syria, Iraq and other places in the world. Don’t think this will not come to America.

    Please don’t be so prideful and think ONLY you are “rightly” dividing the Word of Truth. NO ONE PERSON, I repeat NO ONE PERSON (including you and I) understands completely how the End Times will be fulfilled.

    For instance (out of many I could show for lack of time), the river Euphrates is drying up for more than 7 years now – predicted in Revelations (Rev 16:12). How do you explain that if that is supposed to happen after the “Rapture”?

    Christians are being beheaded right now (also predicted in Rev. ): are they Tribulation Saints? If so has Tribulation come already? How about the many matyrs of Christendom who were beheaded – will they rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years?

    It’s clear that we are not appointed to the Wrath of God, however,Jesus said in this world we will have tribulation (Jn 16:33). The 2 are different. I suggest you humble your heart and SEEK JESUS CHRIST and read the Scriptures more prayerfully with the Holy Spirit as your Guide(1Jn 2:27) rather than Scofield and other commentaries.

    You are doing a brilliant job here. I visit your site often but I do detect a lot of pride too.

    Jesus Be with you.

    • MRH

      @ Benny: You need to study the bible more deeply brother 💡 😉

      “Do you believe in the power of Jesus to hide (Zeph 2:3) you here on earth as He did for Noah and Lot here on this earth even in the midst of judgement similar to the Flood? As in the Days of Noah…. was Noah raptured to heaven before the Flood?”

      The below scripture concerns the rapture, which occurs immediately at Christs return. Those whom miss the rapture remain on earth, to face the beast and his mark. And many will become martyrs then. But grace ends at the rapture.

      1Co 15:20-26 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

      1Co 15:49-54 KJV – And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

      1Th 4:15-18 KJV – For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

      Will we remain in heaven? No, because nor does Jesus. But we will follow him wherever. Unfortunately the bible doesn’t give specifics unto much prophecy stuff. But there are hints throughout scripture regarding second coming event. According to scripture there are two stages in the return event; for saints (subtle, fast, invisible), with saints (dramatic, slow, visible). The world witnesses both stages, but quite differently. In the first stage (after tribulation) they only see the rapture results (missing, chaos). In the second stage (after wrath) they experience the full blown heavenly appearance with all the saints (church, angels, etc). The rapture divides tribulation from wrath. Actually the resurrection spans both salvation phases. The day of Christ in heaven, and the day of the Lord on earth. Same event, different locations (heaven, earth).

      “Again, tell this pre-trib concept to our christian brothers and sisters being crucified and beheaded for their faith in Syria, Iraq and other places in the world. Don’t think this will not come to America.”

      ISIS is nothing really. The worst is yet to come. Do you believe in the New World Order? I hope so, as it is very real and diabolical! Regarding the NWO, they have serious agendas ahead! I just saw the trailer for the new San Andreas movie, and it is downright scary. Total devastation of the West Coast, where I live. As well Nevada is doomed by the Hoover Dam destruction. Also the East Coast has a major strike coming to NYC. Then there is the Yellowstone volcano horror. All such mega disasters would wipe America clean off the map overnight. But how will the elite accomplish such horrors, being that HAARP was supposedly shut down last year?

      “Christians are being beheaded right now (also predicted in Rev. ): are they Tribulation Saints? If so has Tribulation come already? How about the many matyrs of Christendom who were beheaded – will they rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years?”

      The martyrs of tomorrow don’t quite equal the beheadings and slaughters of today. As for tribulation, it has been prevailing since day one, with the murder of Abel by Cain. Considering things though, tribulation in Christ began at the crucifixion, and continues unto the rapture. As to how terrible the coming tribulation will be, no one yet knows. I think we are already experiencing the edges of the great tribulation, with all the strange NWO stuff. Slaughter and deception abounds now, possibly more so than ever before in history. What the the 911 lie, then came Obama, whom is destroying America bit by bit? Then there is Francis the false one? Plus the multitudes of false prophets and teachers, as both Jesus and Paul predicted for the time of sorrows or last days.

      • Benny

        Thanks MRH — Don’t get me wrong. I believe in the rapture too and all the verses you’ve quoted above. None of them tell us the time of the rapture apart from 1Cor 15:49-54 which says rapture will happen at the LAST TRUMP.

        How last is LAST? 7 years before last or really LAST?

        Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
        Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

        So tell me is rapture part of the 1st resurrection in Rev 20:5? Where does it say the first resurrection is in 2 phases? Or is that your own private interpretation? 2Pet 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”
        And why are so-called “Tribulation Saints” part of the 1st resurrection?

        See also the parable of wheat and tares in Mt 13

        Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
        Mt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
        Mt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the END OF THE WORLD; and the reapers are the angels. (Emphasis mine)
        Mt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the END OF THIS WORLD.(Emphasis mine)

        How End is END? How last is LAST?

        2Thes 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND [by] our gathering together unto him [RAPTURE],2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man DECEIVE you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(Emphasis mine)

        Paul is talking clearly here that these 2 separate events will happen on the SAME Day: The Day of Christ. Rapture will preceed the Wrath on the same day.

        One can try to twist it but it’s there in plain English/Greek.

        QUOTE: – “[The martyrs of tomorrow don’t quite equal the beheadings and slaughters of today.]”

        Really? Pss 116:15 Precious in the sight of the Lord [is] the death of his saints.(any death both past and present and future)

        Being persecuted is an honor in God’s kingdom, not a disgrace. Peter’s and all the other apostles and many christians’ death glorified God, including our brothers and sisters in Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, Kenya etc who are dying right now.

        For true believers, persecution is part of our past, present, and future. Therefore it is foolish to think these things cannot happen to Christians in America or to believe Christians will be raptured before persecution comes. Indeed, it is already there and much more is coming soon.

        Pre-trib doctrine (which is even backed by Hollywood – that should send alarm bells to any true Christian http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-ca-rapture-on-film-20141012-story.html They even make fun of it) will cause most “believers” to give up their faith when persecution comes because they were not prepared for it. Nor prepared for the DELAY (Mt 25:1-13) of the Bridegroom.

        The wise thing to do is get our lamp filled with oil and take extra for when you ran out (like the wise virgins) and so that we are ready for whatever happens. without holiness NO one will see God. I doubt if there are any 2nd or left behind chances.

        As for HAARP, NWO, illuminati, Nephilim, Aliens, Giants, NYC, Yellowstone….etc I know all about it. And I am not scared of how wicked they are for greater is He who is in me than He that is in the world (1Jn 4:4). I believe 100% that God can and will protect me in the midst of trouble yes even when the earth shakes (Ps 46). And like the Hebrew boys in Dan 3:16-17, even if He doesn’t He is still my God, My Yeshua, My salvation!!! and I am ready to lay down my life for Him just like He did for me.

        • amigodana

          Benny, well said and presented. Just as you are trying to reach out and get MRH to consider those scriptures (and I agree with you), I will also reach out and ask you to study all the forms of the word “fire” and “burn” in the Bible. If I give you my words you will only reject them and rightly so. However, if you see it in the scriptures, then its Jesus that is the one to make you see the more sure word. I implore you to take all the scriptures with those words and there forms and study it, see what God says.

        • MRH

          @ Benny: Consider below 🙂 I expounded things as best I could, and of course only how I interpret things 😉 I don’t claim full end time knowledge, as that would be prideful and stupid 🙁

          Temple (3rd temple rises)
          Tribulation (1st king AC reigns)
          Rapture (stage 1; invisible, for saints)
          Wrath (2nd king FP reigns)
          Return (stage 2; visible, with saints)
          Millennium (peace prevails)
          Paradise (eternity prevails)

          “None of them tell us the time of the rapture apart from 1Cor 15:49-54 which says rapture will happen at the LAST TRUMP.” = The 7th trump is the final one, when the present kingdom is delivered, and the beast empire destroyed. Rev 11:14-15 KJV – The second woe is past [tribulation over]; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly [wrath begins]. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven [angels and saints], saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 11:18 KJV – And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come [wrath prevails], and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

          “So tell me is rapture part of the 1st resurrection in Rev 20:5? Where does it say the first resurrection is in 2 phases?” = It doesn’t exactly say, but implies such. Mat 24:21, 27, 29-30 KJV – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. … For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be [invisible rapture]. … Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken [wrath prevails]: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [visible return].

          “And why are so-called “Tribulation Saints” part of the 1st resurrection?” = Because they are washed in the holy blood. Rev 7:14-15 KJV – And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb [Christ salvation]. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple [Holy Spirit within]: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them [the church].

          “See also the parable of wheat and tares in Mt 13” = That is the harvest period, which is the end of the world. Mat 13:37-40 KJV – He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom [saints]; but the tares are the children of the wicked one [sinners]; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world [wrath period]; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

          “Paul is talking clearly here that these 2 separate events will happen on the SAME Day:” = The problem is ‘falling away’, which is wrongly interpreted by many folk as a great church apostasy. The Greek word is ‘apostasia’, which means ‘departure’.. i.e. rapture event. 2Th 2:3-8 KJV – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth [Holy Spirit restrains evil] that he might be revealed in his time [Lucifers hour of glory]. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work [evil still prevails]: only he who now letteth will let [Holy Spirit restraining evil], until he be taken out of the way [Holy Spirit departs earth]. And then shall that Wicked be revealed [Lucifer unveiled to the world], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

          “Being persecuted is an honor in God’s kingdom, not a disgrace.” = Yes, but the Jesus martyrs are not merely persecuted, they are under a severe salvation condition. Rev 14:9-12 KJV – And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus [Jesus martyrs].

          “I doubt if there are any 2nd or left behind chances.” = That remains to be seen. 2Pe 3:9 KJV – The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Rev 20:15 KJV – And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

          “As for HAARP, NWO, illuminati, Nephilim, Aliens, Giants, NYC, Yellowstone….etc I know all about it.” = Then you understand that the NWO is the beast empire? Rev 13:1, 11, 15 KJV – And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. … And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. … And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed [Jesus martyrs].

          • George

            I too see the destruction coming upon the people as they are all lifting hands waiting for our Lord to rescue them from the coming tribulation. History will always repeat itself as we read about the Jews welcoming their Messiah with palm branches shouting Hosanna! The word Hosanna means “Save Now!” The Jews during the time of Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem were under great oppression by the Romans and the doctrine in the synagogues was that their Messiah would come to save them from that oppression – from the tyrannical Roman rule. They were expecting a physical salvation but as it continues on, they quickly turned against their Messiah 6 days later when that physical salvation didn’t come in the way they expected.
            So it will be in the second coming of Jesus Christ. The modern day Christian will be expecting their Messiah to come rescue them from the persecution that they will be facing at the time of the Great Tribulation. These will be the people that Paul was talking about when he mentions the Great Apostasy – the falling away from biblical truth. They are taking this pre-trib teaching as the dogmatic Word and promise of God. They are not following sound doctrine but instead turning ears from the truth and trusting in the fables of man. My Lord Jesus Christ cannot be any clearer in Matthew 24:29-31 that “after the tribulation of those days” He says that He will come in the clouds with the sound of the trumpet to gather His elect. Same “clouds” & same “trumpet” that Paul speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that is the now famous “RAPTURE” verse. But the same people that believe in a pre-trib rapture will say that this passage in Matthew 24 is for the Jews only, that Jesus was speaking to the Jews and that the Jews are the “elect”. Then if you point them to a few verses after in Matthew 24:40-41 during the same conversation that Jesus was having with His disciples when He says: ” Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” And ask them, then what is this event? They will undoubtedly agree that it’s the rapture – but how can it be when He’s supposedly talking only to the Jews? Let’s get one thing straight, the “elect” is the church. The Greek word used by Jesus here is the word “eklektos”. It is used 24 times in the NT and used by Paul several times to describe the Gentile Church, NOT the Jews. Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

            Understand that the Pre-Trib doctrine is a fairly new doctrine. There is no evidence of this doctrine prior to the 1830’s when John Nelson Darby – The Father of Modern Day Dispensationalism promoted this notion of a secret rapture. Then came the Scofield Reference Bible which made this teaching mainstream and made it’s way through most of the modern day Seminaries.

            People need to understand that the Pre-Trib doctrine is a deceiving doctrine of MAN! It is not of God. 10 out of 10 people will tell you that they’ve heard of the Pre-Trib Rapture from someone else – a pastor, a book, a website, a movie or a third-person. They will never honestly tell you that they learned it only and directly from reading the scriptures. You see, Satan will always use man to twist scripture and to deceive God’s people. The bible warns us 95 times about being deceived and 35 of those are directly linked to doctrine.

            God tells us 45 times in the New Testament that we will go through tribulation. A couple of examples are:
            Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
            2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

            Most Christians confuse tribulation and the wrath of God. Those are two completely separate words and the misunderstanding of The Book of Revelation has even furthered this deception. The wrath of God does not come until the end. The bible is clear when it mentions that the Beast in Revelation 13:7 will wage war against the saints and overcome them. Guess what Christians? You are those saints!

            Christians need to be prepared spiritually for the persecution that soon awaits us. If you are not preparing spiritually, then the oil in your lamp will burn quickly and you will miss the bridegroom when He finally arrives. Read Matthew 25:1-13 and humbly ask our Lord to show you where you stand in this scripture.

            I can keep going but as with most, pride is an impossible beast to convince. I urge you brothers and sisters to humble yourselves and take it before the Lord. If you ask Him with an open heart and an open mind, He will lead you into all truth. John 16:13

            I’ll leave you with this warning from the apostle Paul:

            2 Timothy 4:1-4
            I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
            For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

            In Love through Christ,

            George

          • MRH

            @ George:

            “I too see the destruction coming upon the people as they are all lifting hands waiting for our Lord to rescue them from the coming tribulation.” = There have been tribulations of greater or lesser effect throughout human history. A final great tribulation is coming, but first there will be a short time of peace.

            “He says that He will come in the clouds with the sound of the trumpet to gather His elect.” = Yes, in heaven from around the world.

            “Let’s get one thing straight, the “elect” is the church.” = Yes, but the church is composed of both Jews and Gentiles.

            “God tells us 45 times in the New Testament that we will go through tribulation.” = Everyone goes through tribulation.

            “Most Christians confuse tribulation and the wrath of God. The wrath of God does not come until the end.” = Nor does the mark of the beast.

            “Christians need to be prepared spiritually for the persecution that soon awaits us.” = The church is already under persecution; from within, and from without.

            “These will be the people that Paul was talking about when he mentions the Great Apostasy – the falling away from biblical truth.” = The problem is ‘falling away’, which is wrongly interpreted by many folk as a great church apostasy. The Greek word is ‘apostasia’, which means ‘departure’.. i.e. rapture event. 2Th 2:3-8 KJV – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth [Holy Spirit restrains evil] that he might be revealed in his time [Lucifers hour of glory]. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work [evil still prevails]: only he who now letteth will let [Holy Spirit restraining evil], until he be taken out of the way [Holy Spirit departs earth]. And then shall that Wicked be revealed [Lucifer unveiled to the world], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

            Note: The message is that we should not allow ourselves to be deceived. For the day of Christ can’t come until the rapture prevails. Why? Because the rapture occurs immediately upon Christ’s return, the day of Christ and gathering event in heaven occurs afterwards 🙂

            1Co 15:20-24 KJV – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    • todd

      Benny,
      PreTribulationist don’t seem to understand, that all of the promises given to Abraham were given to ONE person, Jesus Christ. He is the promised Seed, and in Him all nations are blessed, by being grafted into the believing remnant of Israel. Those “in Him” will inherit the promises.
      They don’t understand that when “all Israel” is saved, it will be by being grafted back into the same Olive Tree that Gentiles are grafted into, the Chosen remnant of Israel.
      Nor do they see that Abraham looked not for an earthly city, but a heavenly one. Hebrews 11 Galatians 3 Ephesians 1-2 Romans 9-11
      It is very clear, dispensationalism is heresy. The Old Covenant was done away with by the death of Jesus, FOREVER. The so-called Church Age is not a parenthesis in God’s dealings with Israel. The Church is the culmination of the ages, and God’s eternal purpose from the foundation of the world. I Corinthians 13, Ephesians 2
      The New Covenant with Israel has already been made, and through it, Gentiles are made one with them.

      • No, the Church is not the “culmination of the ages”, it was a MYSTERY that no one knew about until Jesus showed it to Paul and he then taught it to all the other apostles.

        “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:” Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV)

        And you better PRAY that Dispensationalism IS true, because if it’s not then whatever your last since was just rendered you UNSAVED, and according to Hebrews 6 it is IMPOSSIBLE for YOU to be renewed again.

  • NITROMAN

    THE IRISH SUPREME COURT HAS JUST MADE A UNANIMOUS DECISION TO MAKE IT LEGAL FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO MARRY GAYS IN THE CHURCH. THEY THEN PROPOSE TO FORCE THE POPE TO ADOPT THEIR DECISION AND MAKE THE LAW UNIVERSAL IN ALL NATIONS WHERE CATHOLICS EXIST. INCLUDING THE USA.
    WE MUST BE GETTING CLOSE TO THE END DAYS. THE SOCIETY OF GAY FUDGE PACKERS WILL THEN DEMAND UNIVERSAL VOTING RIGHTS FOR THE NEW WORLD ORDER OF WHICH THE ANTICHRIST WILL COME INTO EXISTANCE. WILL THE ANTICHRIST BE GAY TOO???

    • Christian Coville

      I don’t know Nitroman, Predsident Obama is a homosexual and this would attest to the fact that the antichrist will not consider the desires of women.

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  • NITROMAN

    THE SCRIPTURE IN REVELATIONS CHAPTER 9 TELLS ABOUT SATAN BEING CALLED LUCIFER AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT AND BEING THROWN OUT OF HEAVEN IS GOING TO COME DOWN TO THE EARTH AS BOLT OF LIGHTNING HAVING THE KEY TO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT……………THIS BOTTOMLESS PIT IS THE CERN HADRON COLLIDER IN SWITZERLAND 17 MILES IN DIAMETER ACCELLERATING PROTON PARTICLES TOWARDS ONE ANOTHER AT CLOSE TO THE SPEED OF LIGHT TO FORCE MUCLEAR ENGIER OUT OF THEM AND REVEAL WHAT MATTER IS MADE OF. STEVEN HAWKINS SAID HE IS AN ATHEIST BUT EVEN HE SAID THIS BLACK HOLE ATTEMPT IS FLOURISHING WITH DEMONIC ACTIVITY AND HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CONSUME THE ENTIRE EARTH AND SOLAR SYSTEM WITH A BLACK HOLE THAT FEEDS ON MATTER AND SUCKS IN EVERYTHING IT CAN TO FUEL ITSELF………SINCE SATAN KNOWS HIS TIME IS SHORT…..THIS MAY BE HIS ATTEMPT AT FORCING A CONFRONTATION BETWEEN HIM AND HIS ANGELS AND JESUS CHRIST AND HIS ANGELS IN A SPIRITUAL BATTLE FOR MANS SOUL..UNLESS THOSE DAYS ARE CUT SHORT…NO FLESH WILL BE SAVED……….BUT BECAUSE OF THE ELECT’S SAKE . THOSE DAYS WILL BE CUT SHORT MEANING JEHOVAH ELOHIM GODS TIMETABLE IS INTERUPTED BY THE GOD PARTICLE THAT BOTH HIGGS AND BOSON BOTH AGREED THAT IT IS THE COUNDATION OF THE UNIVERSE THAT GIVES ELECTRONS THEIR MASS. ONLY PROTONS HAVE MASS BUT HOW THEY GET IT IS A MYSTERY. ELECTONS HAVE NO MASS BUT ARE AFFECTED BY ELECTROMAGNETIC PULL. THIS MONSTER ELECTRONIC PARTICLE ACCELERATOR IS 300 FEET UNDERGROUND ON THE BORDER OF FRANCE AND SWITZERLAND. AND IS WORTH MANY BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. THE TUNNEL IS HUGE AND HAS MANY MANY THOUSANDS OF TONS OF COPPER WIRE IN IT TO MAKE THE HUGE ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELDS NECESSARY TO PROPEL THE PARTICLES TO THE SPEED OF LIGHT. THEY GI INTO THE REACTOR THROUGH A TUNNEL AND REACH A PRIZM WHICH THEY DIVIDE IN OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS AND ACCELERATE TO THE OPPOSITE ENG WITH HOPES OF SMASHING INTO EACH OTHER DRIVING MASS TOGETHER TO DESTROY MASS INTO LIGHT OF WHICH EINSTIEN SAID MASS CANNOT BE DESTROYED BUT ONLY CHANGED INTO ENERGY FROM MASS HENCE E=MC2 THE SCIENTISTS CALL THIS THEIR “GOD PARTICLE……IF YOU DO A SEARCH ON THE WEB UNDER HADRON COLLIDER OR HIGGS/BOSON COLLIDER USING CERN IN THE ADDRESS YOU WILL FIND MUCH ABOUT THIS MONSTER THAT HAS THE KEY TO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT………BECAUSE A BLACK HOLE IS I REPEAT IS ….A BOTTOMLESS PIT AS SPOKEN OF IN REVELATIONS CHAPTER 9 WHEN STEVEN HAWKINGS ADMITS IT HAS DEMONIC FORCES…..THAT MEANS ALOT………HE IS EQUIVELENT TO ANOTHER ALBERT EINSTEIN THE SCIENTIST ADMIT THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THEY UNLEASE THE POWER OF THE UNIVERSE WHEN IT WAS FIRST CREATED………MAN IS NOW PLAYING GOD. AND SATAN LUCIFER IS SUPPORTING MAN IN HIS EFFORTS OF BECOMING HIS OWN GOD. I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH SAYS THE DEVIL. AN ANGEL OF LIGHT TO BUFFET THE WORLD AND SUPPORT THE ANTICHRIST.

    • Christian Coville

      CERN>Key to the Bottomless Pit>Shiva (The Destroyer)is a Hindu statue found outside of the facility>Revelation 9:11
      And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon>Abaddon means (The Destroyer) in Hebrew. Notice the scripture 9:11 describing the king of the bottomless pit. (9/11 @ 9:11)I don’t propose dates but could this event happen this September as the Illuminati use special dates to accomplish their evil deeds? Sooner or later these false flags will be real!

  • NITROMAN

    GEORGE IS AN ABSOLUTLY BRILLIANT INTERPRETER OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. WITH THE STRONGS CONCORDANE………NO ONE CAN MATCH HIM…..HIS IS VERY PRECISE AND EXPLAINS THE PROS AND CONS WHICH A PASTOR IN THE PULPIT NEVER DOES. HE GIVES US THE KNOWLEDGE TO NOT ONLY BELIEVE BUT TO KNOW WHY WE BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE………THATS IMPORTANT FOR THE LAST DAYS…….OTHERWISE THE BIRDS OR HOT SUN WILL PLUCK YOUR SEEDS AWAY FROM YOU WITH SMOOTH SCRIPTURE BY SUPPORTERS OF SATAN WITH ITCHING EARS. IT WILL SOUND GOOD TO THE EARS IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHY YOU BEIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE. WE COMMEND GEORGE………..WE NEED MORE LIKE HIM. JOHN BECKER NITROMAN MPLS MINN

  • “Understanding the Difference Between the Rapture and the Second Coming” is a great article! Your rightly divided, expositorily sound doctrine resonated with me according to the Spirit of Truth.

    I believe all 2 Timothy 2:15 Bible believing, Holy Spirit led, people who profess to be part of the Bride of LORD Jesus Christ can see, according to the Scriptures and the condition of today’s World, we are living in the final days of the Age of Grace.

    Without a doubt, “Understanding the Difference Between the Rapture and the Second Coming” should be one of the primary premiere teachings/sermons/messages to those who are saved but not aware that more than ever before, wisdom is to be mindful of the times we’re living in. However, for those of us who are theologically aware of the signs of the times, it amazes me how some are more acceptable to being head over heals enthused about meeting and/or seeing performances by those who are idolized rather than being head over heals enthused about the blessed hope of being ‘caught up’ into the Heavenly Kingdom to forevermore be with the Groom who left Glory to be born of a virgin, live a sinless life, be brutally beaten and horrifically tortured, crucified on a cross and shed sinless Blood in order to redeem us back into fellowship with The Heavenly FATHER. What?! Come on now!

    Jesus/Yeshua is more than worthy of us being excited about the fulfillment of all Scripture to finally experience the justice and peace that we are in need of. He is more than worthy of our urgent anticipation of His return more than anything and anyone in this World. Especially those who are in process of being severely persecuted, martyred, tortured, and vexed in unspeakable, inhumane ways and conditions for believing in Him. Not to mention the needed restoration for our Planet that is now in constant travail with perplexities like a woman in process of giving birth.

    Better yet, what ‘bride to be’ says she has little or no desire of anticipation for the day, hour, minute and second she will stand face to face with her groom and the honor of waltzing into a happy blissful forevermore with him. Truth is, a ‘bride to be’ who chooses to be silent and unimpressed about her wedding day is (1) Not in love with the groom and (2) Is marrying him with superficial motives.

    Also, it is apparent that many in the body of Christ are not aware of the prize to be awarded to those of us who are longing for Christ Jesus’ 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 appearing. According to 2 Timothy 4:8, a Crown of Righteousness is the award for longing for His appearing. Some believe the crown Apostle Paul is speaking of is spiritual in perspective. However, his declaration about the Crown of Righteousness reveals it is not a symbolic metaphorical term because he clearly states, “Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.” Isn’t it good to know that the Crown of Righteousness is just one of the crowns that we can qualify to be given as a reward according to the Holy Scriptures.:-)

    In addition to that Truth, not only did our LORD Jesus promise to come and save us (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) from the wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) to come, He also prayed to ABBA for it to happen, according to John 17:24: “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

    Again, “Understanding the Difference Between the Rapture and the Second Coming” is a timely teaching/message. However, instead, messages pertaining to the lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes and the pride of life are the preferred glamorized propaganda for ears that rather be tickled.

    But there is a remnant set aside. We’re called and chosen. The Messiah’s bride. We’re not ashamed to declare the decree ABBA FATHER made in Eternity. Not by power. Not by might. After the end of the Age of Grace – Messiah Millennium.

    Revelation 22:20, “…He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly…”

    And the Bride of Jesus Christ says, “Amen. Come, LORD Jesus.”

  • NITROMAN

    chapter 9 of the book of revelations speaks of lucifer as a messenger of light that comes down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit……
    THIS BOTTOMLESS PIT IS THE BLACK HOLE CREATED BY http://WWW.CERN/HIGGS/BOSON.COM PARTICLE ACCELERATOR IN SWITZERLAND THAT IS 17 MILES IN DIAMETER GENERATING BILLIONS OF VOLTS AND AMPS OF ELEECTRICITY TO FORCE PARTICLES TOGETHER TO REVEAL THE GOD PARTICLE THAT CREATED TEH UNIVERST. STEVEN HAWKINGS SAYS THEY ARE UNLEASHING DOOM FROM THE PITS OF HELL IN DOOING SO. READ IT IN CHAPTER 9 OF REVELATIONS. ALL BLACK HOLES ARE BOTTOMLESS PITS.

  • NITROMAN

    everywhere i look i see businesses going down…..everything is up for sale or lease. private aviation is dying……….very few airplanes going over my house anymore and i live on a VOR TO ANOTHER AIRPORT. BACK 20 YEARS AGO………..I AHD TWO AIRPLANES, A CORVETTE AND SELF SUSTAINING BUSINESS AND MONEY IN THE BANK,,,,,,,,,,,I THOUGHT MAN WAS ON THE WAY TO BUILDING THE KINGDOM OF GOD………….THEN SOMETHING HAPPENED. AND NOW THE USA WILL NOT BE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS BECAUSE WE HAVE TURNED OUR BACK ON JESUS CHRIST IN FAVOR OF MATERIAL WEALTH AND THAT IS NOW DYING. IT’S A RACE TO THE BOTTOM FROM HERE. nitroman mpls minnn

  • If there is anyone out there who has taken the time to follow thru with all that has been written in this article and still “doesn’t get it” regarding THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH AND THE SECOND COMING, I can only shake my head and wonder why.
    There should be no question regarding the validity of a pre-trib rapture.
    Christ is coming for his bride BEFORE the inevitable happens, not while she is or has been torn to shreds by the powers and followers of Satan. Yes some are being persecuted for their faith today. It has been that way throughout history but nothing compares to the persecution coming for those who will be left behind because of failing to except Christ as Lord and Savior this side of the tribulation hour.

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  • MIKE GRESCH

    GOD GAVE TEN COMMANDMENTS……….ONE OF WHICH IS ……..THOU SHALT NOT KILL. BUT HE ALSO GAVE ANOTHER THAT SAID THOU SHALT NOT LIE AND BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST OUR NEIGHBOR…………SO WHY DO WE HAVE CRIMINAL COURTS FOR MURDERERS WHILE WE LET POLICITIANS GO FREE WHEN THEY LIE ? ? DO WE PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH OF GODS LAWS WE WISH TO OBEY?? WHEN POLITICIANS SPEAK OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF THEIR MOUTHS AT THE SAME TIME. WE KNOW THEY ARE LIE-ING.

  • Nathaniel Fernandes

    In 1 Timothy 6:13-15 we read that Paul tell Timothy “to keep this command without spot, unrebukable until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ” … now the question I ask is this:

    “Why would Paul instruct Timothy in 1 Timothy 6:13-15 to to keep this command without spot, unrebukable until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, if Timothy was going to be raptured 7 years prior to the second coming?

  • Christian Coville

    It would seem that some people think they are immune to judgement. They feel they have already been rewarded and don’t consider the trials of the martyrs. The Tribulations are the final tests of all mans hearts. They don’t realize that the true Saints are left to preach the Gospel and bring comfort and encouragement to others. They want to believe what is for me instead of what should I be doing for others.

  • Christian Coville

    Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

    48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

  • Christian Coville

    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

    48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

  • Christian Coville

    The Lord endurethed till the end, and so shall His Bride as to be worthy unto marriage!

    • We do not become worthy by “enduring”, we are MADE WORTHY at salvation by His shed blood.

      • Thank You, Geoffrey. I have not been real successful in my street preaching efforts but I am not ashamed of the gospel nor to share the plan of salvation with others. You are an encouragement to me and others of like faith. I believe we will experience the “twinkle of an eye” very soon because our Lord and Savior made it possible with the shedding of his blood and his grace, not by our works that he sees as filthy rags.

        • Just don’t ever give up, don’t ever quit. The Lord will bless your efforts to reach the lost because that’s what you were saved to do!

      • Actually, the bible never says that we are made worthy by his blood at all. If you take ‘blood’ and ‘worthy’ and look through the bible in the KJV (for instance), there are only three NT verses that have those words on – it says those Christians who trample on the blood of Christ will not be found worthy in Hebrews 10.29, the Lamb is worthy to open the scroll because he was slain and redeemed many by his blood (Revelation 5.9) and that Babylon is worthy to drink blood from God because she has slain prophets and saints (Revelation 16.6). While it never says in those words we ‘become worthy by enduring’, it does have teaching to that effect, such as ‘If we suffer with him, we will reign with him’ from Paul in 2 Timothy 2.12

  • Christian Coville

    These three verses make it clear that His (elect) do not ascend until after Tribulation! 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

  • We’ll Soon See

  • Albert Dixon

    Mr. Grider, thank you for your wonderful work! May God Bless You!

  • Scripture speaks of three “tribs” as you probably know.

    John 16:33 (one of those “precious promises” that never seems to make it into those “Precious Promises” bibles) and Acts 14:22 – Paul was not quite so pre-trib as to believe there would be none.
    Matthew 24:9 as cited below – this appears to be the tribulation that most of the world’s Christians are enduring now. The Christians in Sudan, China, North Korea, Iran, and many other places would probably disagree with a strict “pre-trib” interpretation.
    Matthew 24:21 – a period of “great tribulation” which I believe maps to the wrath of God poured out on a Christ-rejecting world, and from which we are exempt.

    I am pre-great-trib, probably for some of the reasons you are pre-trib. I doubt that either Paul or John or any of the other early martyrs had a problem with Christians being subject to tribulation before Matthew 24:15.

  • Scripture speaks of three “tribs” as you probably know.

    John 16:33 “…in the world you will have tribulation…” (one of those “precious promises” that never seems to make it into those “Precious Promises” bibles) and Acts 14:22 “We must through many tribulations enter the Kingdom of God…” – Paul was not quite so pre-trib as to believe there would be none.
    Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you …” this appears to be the tribulation that most of the world’s Christians are enduring now. The Christians in Sudan, China, North Korea, Iran, and many other places would probably disagree with a strict “pre-trib” interpretation.
    Matthew 24:21 – a period of “great tribulation” which I believe maps to the wrath of God poured out on a Christ-rejecting world, and from which we are exempt.

    I am pre-great-trib, probably for some of the reasons you are pre-trib. I doubt that either Paul or John or any of the other early martyrs had a problem with Christians being subject to tribulation before Matthew 24:15.

    • todd

      The period of great tribulation is not the wrath of God. Jesus made it clear that it begins with the abomination. Tribulation is tribulation, even if it is great. And the source of any tribulation is always the same, from Satan and his seed.
      God’s people have always experienced tribulation, but it has always been intermittent and localized. What makes the time of great tribulation “great,” is not the fact that it is worse than any other (what could be worse than being sawed in two, or being burned alive), but the fact that it will involve the entire Church (the overcoming remnant) throughout the world, at the same time. That is why Jesus said that if it was not cut short, none would survive.

  • Ben

    You are right the Rapture and Second coming are different events but this doesn’t prove the pre-trib position.

    Bless you.

    http://prewrathrapture.com/the_prewrath_rapture_1/

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  • ONCE AGAIN, this article is FALSE and DISPENSATIONALIST HERESY.
    The Rapture AND the Second Coming BOTH HAPPEN at the SAME TIME — AFTER the tribulation.
    They are practically THE SAME ONE EVENT. Raptured saints “RETURN WITH CHRIST” practically right away.
    WE WILL GO THROUGH the Great Tribulation but NOT The Day of God’s Wrath (they are NOT the same thing).
    Jesus said in Matthew 24 “AFTER THE TRIBULATION” that saints WOULD SEE the imminent signs of his returning.
    JESUS DOES NOT RETURN a THIRD time!
    In dispensationalism, the Rapture IS TECHNICALLY a 2nd coming, whereas you make the error of calling a THIRD coming, “The Second Coming”. NO. BOTH events are ONE and the same. Jesus does not just pretend to come back at the rapture and then “for real this time” at the Second Coming…. smh

    • THE ONLY FULLY BIBLICAL position is POST-TRIB / PRE-WRATH.
      NOT JESUIT CATHOLIC COUNCIL OF TRENT / Counter-Reformation GARBAGE like PRE-TRIB. Nor any other -trib.

    • TheGreatTroy

      Ryan Hall

      Please read and study your King James Bible. You are being mislead.

      • Actually he isn’t too far wrong, he might not be right about ‘pre-wrath’- depends how you define it – but definitely right about post-Trib – it was what the New Testament and all the disciples of the apostles taught. It’s also what the 12 apostles taught Gentile churches. You can read what they wrote about that in the final chapter of their church manual for Gentile churches, called ‘Didache’. It’s out there on the internet.

  • primetime

    I have a question. Why would we need to be raptured after the tribulation? Jesus will be here.

    • Precisely for that reason. 1 John 3 tells us that when we see him, we will be like him. Your question implies that the only reason for ‘rapture’ is to save the saints from the ‘tribulation’. In fact, Paul said that the only way to enter the kingdom of God is through tribulation (Acts 14.22). When Jesus returns, there will be an apocalypse – literally an unveiling – in which those who are righteous, and belong to God are revealed for who they truly are – in other words, the true church. The resurrection occurs for all who are ‘in Christ’, who is the ‘firstfruits’ of the resurrection. Thus the righteous or elect dead are resurrected, and the living elect are transformed in resurrection bodies to be like Jesus, so they can be with him, like him, recognized as his own. It is when Jesus comes to be ‘glorified in his saints glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe… in that day’ (2 Thessalonions 1.10)

      Or to put it another way, the first time Jesus rode into Jerusalem, the people went out to ‘meet’ him and escort him back into the city. This is the meaning of ‘meet’ used in 1 Thessalonians 4 of the rapture. Those who ‘met’ Jesus on Palm Sunday, well, many of them abandoned him, and Jerusalem as a whole rejected him. However, when he returns, the true saints from all over the world will rise to meet him in the air, and accompany him back to earth in triumph to Jerusalem.

  • JOHN

    and he who can endure until the end will be saved. TO ENDURE YOU MAY NEED TO HAVE MUCH FOOD STORED AND A WAY TO PROTECT IT AND YOURSELF. OTHERWISE SOMEONE WILL TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU AND YOU WILL NOT SURVIVE TO THE END.

  • Much of theological assumptions and interpretations which the world is filled with. Very little understanding of scripture and the one Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    On the final day of the judgement time, also what we read as the ‘great tribulation age’ spoken of in scripture, the times we are in now; the last day of this age is what is judgement day. In one single day, you will have the 2 raptures, …the destruction of all unsaved, the demons, the devil and the universe and then the creation of a new heaven and a new earth. more biblical truth here at http://www.godsaveme2.com/2015/08/26/end-times-prophecy-according-to-the-word-of-god-and-not-the-world/
    Glad to share and Shalom.

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  • JOhn
  • Doug L

    You are correct in that these are two separate events. Currently Jesus is involved judging his churches and those that are listening to what the Spirit is saying to them are separating themselves from the dead churches and taking on a new identity – The Bride. When Jesus finishes judging the whole Body of Christ and The Bride has been removed – The Rapture. The Church age now ends, Antichrist is revealed and God begins dealing with The Nations – Great Tribulation.
    At the end of The Great Tribulation Jesus will return with His saints and those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet him in the air, changed and participate in His return. Those believers who remained in the dead churches and did not separate themselves and make themselves ready for The Groom’s return will go into The Great Tribulation to be purified and made ready for Jesus’s Second Coming. The whole basis for the Rapture is found in the parable of the Ten Virgins. Those that are ready and those who are not. Because God loves those that belong to Him, He warns them to listen and obey. Those that obey – He rewards. Those who do not He corrects. Listen to what The Spirit is saying to The Churches in The Body of Christ and obey – repent, be separated, holy and get dressed for the Wedding – time is short. As The Churches are judged the Bride is being called out. Jesus is not looking for a revived Church but a spotless Bride, blameless and without wrinkle. A whole new Identity.

  • I am new to this website and was brought to attention about the rapture. Although I have been a Christian most of my life, I have never been sure of alot in the Bible, except that I believed all of it. I believe there will be a rapture and then bad news for those left.
    I have been told by some, not sure if true, that then there will be a second chance for sinners to accept Christ. I don’t know where that is in the Bible, if at all. I am willing to listen to anyone who is qualified to answer this question.
    I am seeing today about Obama running for UN secretary after getting rid of him as president. That all scares me to death, because I’m not unsure that he is not the anti-christ. He is a monster. I guess NSA will pick me up for saying this. It’s not like like I can do anything about him, except pray, but nothing is reasonable about the way our world is handled now. Sorry, didn’t mean to rant.

  • M.C.

    A point I would like to leave concerning your article, and one I do believe many haven’t even recognized. God drew me to this verse one day while reading the scripture. It had been some time since I worked my way through Revelation so I decided to start there. When I hit verse 6 in chapter 14 I saw something I had never seen before.

    “6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach
    unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    Now at this point in time I had a friend who had the Mormons coming by all the time. He would talk with them and when he needed support scripturally he would call me over to join the discussion. I made sure the discussion stayed solely on the Bible after establishing it was God’s authoritative word, which they agreed it was. After seeing what was in this verse I was able to discredit the Book of Mormon with its own preface. . There isn’t one instance in the history of the Church up to this point where you can find God using an angel to lead men to Christ. This job was given solely to Church. You can find instances where angels were used to lead men to other men to learn about the Gospel in the New Testament, but not one place where an angel is used to preach it. This plainly shows that the Church is not on the earth at this point. I believe this is the point during the Tribulation right before the 12,000 from each tribe of Israel begin evangelizing the world. I can’t say for certain that this is the case, because there is no evidence to state so, but one thing is obvious; the Church is not on the earth doing its job.

    • I think that the whole premise of that line of argument is wrong. Even if we assume that this angel is preaching the gospel in the normal fashion (which I do not – it is part of a series of angels proclaiming the proclamations of God at the point where Jesus is just about to return – and the phrase is a typical Jewish proclamation about the true God to gentiles) – even if we assume that, on what basis does that ‘prove’ that the church isn’t there? You just state that ‘This plainly shows that the church is not on the earth at this point.’ Says who? You claim things are ‘obvious’ when they are not.

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  • You are totally incorrect in your assertion that the Rapture and the arrival of Jesus in the New Jerusalem are two separate events. You contest that one (the New Jerusalem) is “coming down” while the other (the Rapture) is “going up” but you are not looking at the visions correctly!

    John may see the NJ “coming down to earth” but that does NOT mean that it actually lands! It is far too large for that, being a cube of approximately 1400 miles – almost the size of the moon! The closest it could approach is to go into orbit around the earth.

    In order for us mere mortals to go on board the NJ (which Revelation says we will) we will have to be “lifted up”, in the same way John was “lifted up” through the “door into Heaven” where he was given his visions. God obviously has access to a teleportation system which we mortals can only imagine in our sci-fi blockbusters!

    Are these movies what is meant when it says in Acts 2.17: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”

    Maybe the “7 lamps of God” where John saw his visions, were 7 glowing video screens, just like the ones our “sons and daughters now watch using their i-pads!

    Are we continuing to receive visions today to prepare us for what is to come?

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  • eaglet

    SCRIPTURES THAT DESTROYS THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE:

    Rev. 21:9 is about The New Jerusalem, the Bride, the Wife (Married already) of the Lamb (this is after the end of the Millennium, and start of the New Heaven and New Earth)

    9 ONE OF THE SEVEN ANGEL who had the SEVEN BOWLS full of the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the BRID, the WIFE of the LAMB.”

    (I hope we don’t have another bride in mind, like what pretribbers did to Matthew 24:29,30, making it the second rapture/resurrection, which they say is still an integral part of the first resurrection of Rev. 20. Jesus will get His Bride one time only, not several times)

    Question:
    Why does it have to be ONE OF THE SEVEN ANGELS WHO HAD THE SEVEN BOWLS, be the one appointed by Jesus to show to John the Bride? Why not one of the seven angels who had the trumpets, or Michael, or Gabriel, or any other Angels?

    Answer:
    Checkout Rev. 16:12-15
    12 THE SIXTH ANGEL POUR OUT HIS BOWL on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

    15 Behold I come like a THIEF (to snatch or steal away)! BLESSED is the ONE who stays awake (WISE VIRGINS?) and remains clothed (OIL/HOLY SPIRIT/ROBE), so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Matthew 22

    To make the above more logically valid, here is another scriptures to back it up:

    Rev. 16:17-19
    17 The SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his BOWL into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered BABYLON THE GREAT and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

    Rev. 17:1
    17 ONE of the SEVEN ANGELS who had the SEVEN BOWLS came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the GREAT PROSTITUTE, who sits by many waters.

    Boooom!!! There you have it, no amount of twisting or allegory can refute this scriptures.

    God help us in this trying and deceptive end times.

    eaglet

  • God help us all to understand which side of the argument you are trying to accept and what you are trying to refute!

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  • inspiring and enlightening story

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