Prepping People For The Apocalypse Has Become A High-Tech Billion Dollar Industry

The business of apocalypse disaster readiness is getting higher tech, higher priced, and way more geographically diverse, with state-of-the-art underground shelters tricked out with greenhouses, gyms, and decontamination units in the boondocks and the latest in plush panic rooms in city penthouses.
doomsday-preppers-bunkers-panic-rooms-apocalypse-end-times-last-days-nteb

The apocalypse has become big business. And it’s getting bigger every day

“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Revelation 6:15-17 (KJV)

EDITOR’S NOTE: In Revelation 6 quoted above, we see an amazing picture. God shows us unsaved man in the last days, living in doomsday shelters, begging the ‘mountains and the rocks’ to protect them from the wrath of God almighty. These shelters, bunkers and panic rooms do nothing to keep them safe when the actual Apocalypse arrives. If you really want to prepare for the end times, then get saved and trust Jesus Christ. Your victory will be assured for all eternity.

Christians aren’t called to underground hiding places, Christians are called to “LOOK UP!” and wait for the BLESSED HOPE of the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ.

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV)


 

In the ’50s, homeowners fearing Communist attacks built bunkers in their backyards and basements, hung up a few “God Bless Our Bomb Shelter” signs and called it a Cold War. But today, Americans en masse are again preparing for the worst—and Communists are just about the only thing not on their list. What is? Terrorist attacks, a total economic collapse, perhaps even zombie invasions. Or maybe just a complete societal breakdown after this November’s scorched-Earth presidential election.

But this is not your Uncle Travis’ guns-and-canned-foods-militia vision of Armageddon preparedness. While the fears of survivalists and so-called preppers are modernizing, so too are their ideas and methods of refuge.

Inside the Luxury Survival Condos:

The business of disaster readiness is getting higher tech, higher priced, and way more geographically diverse, with state-of-the-art underground shelters tricked out with greenhouses, gyms, and decontamination units in the boondocks and the latest in plush panic rooms in city penthouses.

Welcome to the brave (and for some, highly profitable) new world of paranoia.

“There’s a lot of uneasiness in society. You see it in politics. You see it in the economy. The world is changing really, really quickly and not always for the better,” says Richard Duarte, author of “Surviving Doomsday: A Guide for Surviving an Urban Disaster.”

Prepping “gives them a certain comfort that at least they’ve got some sort of preparations to … take care of their family if things start falling apart all around them,” he says.

Better be safe with a safe room

If the booming sales of panic rooms are any indication, more and more city dwellers these days are obsessively worrying about everything from home invasions to terror attacks. And they’re backing up those worries with cold, hard cash.

Sales of safe (aka panic) rooms, where families can safely lock themselves away from most threats, are up 30% over the same time last year at Gaffco Ballistics, a Londonderry, VT–based installer which does much of its business in New York City, according to CEO Tom Gaffney. That’s driven in part by the terrorist attacks in San Bernardino, CA, and Paris, he says.

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Most of his safe rooms are actually fortified master bedrooms, with ballistic fiberglass–reinforced walls, a Kevlar-lined door that is purported to resist both bullets and sledgehammers, and bullet-proof windows—as well as a high-end alarm system that is designed to withstand burglars, rioters, and more.

He also turns home theaters into radiation-proof rooms where residents can watch the latest Hollywood blockbusters while World War III rages on outside.

The rooms range from $250,000 to $1.5 million. (No one said paranoia came cheap.) People are “just more aware” of potential threats, says Gaffney of his clients, many of whom don’t consider themselves preppers. “It’s a growth market.”

That paranoia has also been fueling business at construction company and safe room installer GoNavco Corp., a Troy, NY–based safe room installer.

Owner Joe Navarra began installing panic rooms several years ago after requests began pouring in. Now this burgeoning portion of his business is up about 50% over the same time last year.

His no-frills chambers start at $20,000, although most are in the $50,000 range. They’re typically installed in the closets or bathrooms of master bedrooms.

Panic rooms aren’t just relegated to the biggest cities and the biggest disasters. Author Duarte has several spaces in his suburban home outside of Miami that could serve as safe rooms with fortified walls and doors.

“You’re never going to stop a determined attacker” with his homemade safe rooms, says Duarte, who says he became a prepper after Hurricane Andrew destroyed his home in 1992. “But you can slow them down to give you enough time to call the police or figure out how to defend yourself.”

Survivalist properties: Living off the land

Of course, for some survivalists, cities will never feel safe. These are the folks who need to go far off the grid. But even this age-old concept is getting a makeover, and a business plan.

Some real estate companies are seeing big increases by specializing in “survivalist properties”—large parcels of rural land with homes targeted specifically to preppers, with full fortification and self-sustainable food and energy options. After all, why not grow your own tomatoes and kale while you wait out the end of the world as we know it?

For example, sales at American Redoubt Realty, a real estate firm nestled in the heart of prepper country in northern Idaho, are up 50% over the same time last year, says real estate agent Todd Savage, who specializes in such transactions. His clients typically hail from Texas and California.

Idaho, Montana and Wyoming are often considered the epicenter of the modern survivalist property trend. But you can find pockets of it across the country, from North Carolina to Washington state.

“Each election cycle we see a huge uptick in interest and sales,” says Savage, who first noticed the trend in 2012, when Mitt Romney faced off against Barack Obama. “People are tired of both sides.”

His buyers are looking for very specific, “100% self-sustainable,” rural properties, at least 10 acres and up, says Savage. To make it true prepper property, the land must have at least two abundant water sources, like a well and a stream; alternative energy, like solar panels or hydropower; and the ability to grow food.

It must also be easily defendable against a multitude of threats, with either bunkers or safe rooms or simply reinforced doors and windows and a lot of ammunition.

Properties already outfitted with solar panels or hydropower are particularly in demand since they can be expensive to install, he says.

Better have deep pockets for a bunker

Likewise, sales at bunker builder Rising S Co. have never been better. They shot up 20% to 25% over the past two years for the radiation-resistant shelters, which can be sunk 33 feet underground and tricked out with gyms, greenhouses, and water filtration systems that can even enable dwellers to drink their own urine if need be. Ewww!

“The more politics that are played on TV, the more our sales go up,” says proud prepper Clyde Scott, owner of the Kemp, TX–based company. “People are in fear of our government passing laws to take their guns away and not allowing them to protect themselves,” including against a foreign invasion.

The company sells nearly two dozen, air- and water-tight steel bunkers a year, which can range from $40,000 to $10 million each. They bear little resemblance to the bare-bulb bomb shelters of the ’50s. The bulk of sales are in Texas, but the end-of-the-world-proof shelters are also big in the Carolinas, Virginia, and Florida, Scott says.

Most of his clients, from surgeons to billionaires, work in cities and are successful businesspeople with families. The bunkers are typically installed on their “bug out” properties, secondary residences in the country where preppers can go if (or when, depending on whom you talk to) disaster hits.

Business is also good over at Ultimate Bunker, based on the outskirts of Salt Lake City, where sales have nearly tripled each year since the company opened shop four years ago. General contractor Mike Peters got into bunkers (literally, folks!) after watching the TV show “Doomsday Preppers” on the National Geographic Channel. He was convinced he could build them better.

His underground shelters start at $59,000 and go way up from there. His top-of-the-line model has areas for raising rabbits and fish. The majority of his sales are in the $500,000 range.

“Almost everything I do is off-ground and located in the middle of nowhere,” says Peters, who often powers the shelters with solar panels placed on nearby sheds.

Customers “want a bunker right now because they feel the country is doomed after the election,” he says. “It doesn’t matter who wins; we’re in trouble.” source

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
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  • Julie

    It’s really too bad that hard-working, lower-middle class families will never be able to prepare like this.

  • guest

    They might be nuke proof, but it sure won’t save them from the White Throne Judgment.

    • Leigh

      amen to that!!

  • GRACE

    amen Geoffrey to your comment that if you really want to prepare for the end times, then get saved and trust Jesus Christ. Your victory will be assured for all eternity.Christians aren’t called to underground hiding places, Christians are called to “LOOK UP!” and wait for the BLESSED HOPE of the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ. “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV)

    There is not going to be a place to hide, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Those who trust in Christ for salvation don’t need a bunker, we have to know that God is control of our lives and not be afraid. Submit to God and resist the devil and he will flee, resist the temptation to fear and commit your way unto the Lord. Take heart and be of good courage, He will strengthen our hearts. God is not man that He should lie and He is going to create a new heaven and earth. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Isaiah 55:6-7 vs6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

  • Phil

    There is prudent preparation, and then there is paranoia. I lament the fact that so many people are completely ignorant about basic preparedness. It is perfectly reasonable to have your finances, your household and your family prepared for an emergency situation. Nobody should have to worry about drinking water, food, first aid kits, self-defense and spending money if normal circumstances are interrupted. If nothing else, you might be able to help someone else. Preparedness is cheap.

    On the other hand, it is pointless to become preoccupied with ‘survival’. We do, after all, have a Savior. He is the only Person in the universe who can actually say that He saved someone’s life.

    • GRACE

      I agree Phil that there is nothing wrong with the wisdom in having some preparation for an emergency situation and you don’t need to buy these food or medical kits to have that, just put back extra when you can, pray and think about what your family might need to get through a tough situation if it became necessary, but that isn’t hiding or being afraid, it is just wisdom as you said. God used Joseph and had him prepare an entire nation for a famine that came but the fear mongering sites are many today and fear is the opposite of faith. And I mostly say this to anyone who has issues with insecurity, just don’t let fear grip your heart by all the news, read God’s word, meditate on it, know that He will take care of you because He loves you more than we even understand and He will never fail or forsake you. Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
      I listened to this one site for awhile, they talked about having their faith in Christ and God but then would tell you every bad thing going on in this world and how you need to be prepared, it was like a lot of fear and a little faith mixed together, then I began to realize I was becoming fearful, was having trouble sleeping, I would have hid in a bunker myself if I had one, that is how much of an effect it began to have on me and I asked God what is going on here, immediately that site popped into my head so I asked God to forgive me for becoming afraid and not trusting in Him for all my needs including the wisdom to know how to handle any situation that arose. I had an insecurity issue even before listening to that site as am married to an alcoholic where security was never a priority and trust was difficult but God is healing my heart of those things and strengthening my faith in Him alone, I am a work in progress for sure. So, God gives us the wisdom and means to be prepared in doing His will daily as we trust in His providence and He is also faithful even when we are not for He cannot deny Himself.
      Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

  • Ky

    Having lived in Florida when a hurricane is predicted to land, I know how many people think a an extra loaf of bread, a dozen eggs and a gallon of milk is being “prepared”. A little discernment about the end times is a good idea. We may not be able to afford a luxury bunker, but we don’t have to be caught up with the masses with no preparations. That is what the lost do. Unless your idea of being prepared is to loot stores that are boarded up, some advance effort on your part is not foolish nor does it show a lack of faith. It is just plain old common sense. Although we are looking for that blessed hope, we know not what hour our Lord will come. It might be more unpleasant than you can imagine prior to the rapture. At the very least, getting out of the cities might be a good idea, and having some extra food and water to tide you over for a couple of weeks might be a good idea also. Living day to day is not wise.

    Luk_19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, OCCUPY TILL I COME.

    Pro 22:3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.

  • Sherry

    You can run..but you can’t hide from GOD ALMIGHTY..

  • CHAR

    No, we don’t need to buy a bunker when we have a mansion waiting for us. These people better watch the Jim Bakker Show cause he’s selling some packaged food to last exactly 7 years. Needless to say, he doesn’t believe in the rapture, or is it that it wouldn’t be lucrative for him to believe in the rapture cause he couldn’t sell his 7 years of food if he did. Do these people think it’s going to be announced on the 7:00 news that the tribulation has started? How are they going to know when it started? Hmmmmm, now that’s a stumper!

    • Char- I agree with you. Jim Bakker is always poking fun at the “Pre-Tribbers” on his show and believes the Rapture will only come when the end of the world occurs. I don’t watch his show anymore. His “prepper” business is big business and his survival gear and food is so expensive and not really affordable for the average family. He wants to scare people to be prepared so he can be in business.

      Maybe Jim Bakker will be left behind when the Rapture comes just like in the movie “Left Behind”. God only knows his heart.

      • Leonard

        If Bakker tries to sell you any timeshares in his bunker, just say “NO!”…

        • Patrice

          Better yet, stay away from Jim Bakker. He was a phony when he and Tammy Faye were living it up. After his prison sentence he marries another look alike Tammy Faye and goes back to the same huckstering and catering to delusional ‘christians’.

    • leigh

      lol….amen to that Char!!

    • Heather

      Exactly Char! I watched for example, Michael Snyder from “End of the American Dream” go on the Jim Baker show ranting against the pre tribulation rapture, calling it a lie. Just think of all the extra customers they would have for their survivalism business if so many in the Body of Christ were blinded to the promises of God through His word.

  • Howdy Y’all, Phil and Ky have it right. Actually, all the comments are correct, but as Phil suggests, it is perfectly reasonable to have some preparations made in case of a disaster, natural or otherwise. Food and water are of the utmost. Medical supplies, batteries, flashlights and a gun or two are also necessary. Panic and paranoia are for the unsaved and the uneducated Christian. Proverbs 22:3 is the best advice…and this comes from our LORD. Blessings, BuffaloBilly

  • Leonard

    I subscribe to several SHTF blogsites, and it’s not the apocalypse of The Bible those people are concerned with, but disasters, both manmade and natural–EMP being one of the primary concerns. Stockpiling of food, water, and alternative energy sources make sense if one’s concerned about the loss of the power grid due to solar storms or nuclear attack. Too, hurricanes, earthquakes and other natural disasters could be a little less unpleasant if someone’s got a full belly, a roof–however makeshift–and a source of power to enable radios or computers to keep them informed. Consider Hurricane Sandy, or even the Hurricane that destroyed Haiti a few years back. Tsunamis in Indonesia. Extended periods of unemployment. Disasters don’t have to be the apocalypse…

  • dan

    What are we preparing for? Because other than a nuclear attack what are we preparing for? A nuclear attack or some

    other act of war would only bring our country together as it did in the past. If this happens no one’s going to be

    hiding in bunkers because we’re Americans and we stick together just like in the past. Also, if there is a nuclear

    attack and you have a bunker YOU’D BETTER BE IN IT (laugh) when the detonation happens. Otherwise, you’re SOL.

    Even the slightest exposure to this type of attack will probably be lethal.

    So, what about an Economic collapse ? Again, don’t need a bunker! Our country is more prepared for an emergency than

    any other country , and I am confident we would take care of each other rather than hide in a bunker.

    So, if your feeling a little resentful maybe jealous because you sure would like a shiny capsule to hide in;

    FORGET ABOUT IT! I would hope if you were blessed with enough extra for any of this you would instead give

    it to someone who really needs it. I seem to remember a story Jesus told us about a man who stored all his riches

    only to find himself dead the next day. I also believe he forfeited his soul over it all.

    I trust I will be exactly where GOD wants me if any of this happens so I’m not worried.

    And if it’s the rapture still don’t need a bunker!

    • Leonard

      Wouldn’t have too much faith in your fellow man, Dan. Check out what’s happening in Venezuela now that the food has run out:
      http://www.infowars.com/scenes-from-the-venezuela-apocalypse-countless-wounded-after-5000-loot-supermarket-looking-for-food/

      • Ron

        Thanks for sharing Leaonard.

        Blessings!

      • Howdy Y’all, First, Thanks Leonard for the article. It looks like Venezuela is a microcosm of what the world will be like during the tribulation. Recall the black horse and the pale horse in Revelation (Rev 6:6-8). This is kinda close to home folks, don’t forget. Blessings, Buffalobilly

        • Ron

          You are right BuffaloBilly between seal 3 and seal 4 we have the following

          Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

          A days wage for a loaf of bread!

          Blessings!

      • Dan

        Lenord, thanks for the link. I too happen to be following the turmoil Venezuela is going through. But, the

        problem is mass government corruption which is caused by IMHO a peasant society becoming rich too quick. Wealth is

        new to the poor few who dare to be a politician and greed takes over after they win. Also, I’m afraid our government

        is involved and is waiting to show these inept backward people how to run a government. But of course these people are

        too proud to be bossed around so the US is only waiting for the country to implode. What happens next could get ugly

        as I know China and Russia want a piece of the Venezuelan pie.

        • Ron

          I agree Dan. What I do find Ironic though is Venezuela has the cheapest gasoline in the world with it costing less

          than 25 cents a gallon! I’ll bet they must have massive oil reserves! Yeah China and Russia for sure.

          Blessings!

          • Dan

            Ron, it’s the specter of war looming in every form all over the globe that’s crazy to see.

            The world is ripe for another conflict and we need that wall like yesterday. Because S.America is coming because

            they’re hopeless. In the future I see a militarized border out of necessity because our economy will not

            be able to support the masses coming across the border and into our neighborhoods.

            If Hillary Clinton wins we will have almost for sure 2 uber liberal justices that will allow the most

            progressive agenda in US history with millennial parents who favor socialism over capitalism.

            All of that with the rise of Islam’s influence makes for a very scary future with or without prepping and it

            will be interesting to see what happens to bunkers in blue states because of the progressive government if

            the SHTF. Scary scary!

          • Ron

            Dan what is your Avatar I am just curious since my eyesight is bad? I do like your SHTF it makes me think of my Navy days and is much more polite that way.

            Yes it is scary scary, especially for those left behind.

            Blessings Dan remember that God said ( and I have to remember it as well ) God said for us to fear not, do not fear, do not be afraid 365 times in His word 1 for every day of the year.

            Never mind Allstate Your are in The Best Hands With Jesus Christ!!!!!!

            We are going Home SOON, VERY SOON!!!!!!!

        • Ron

          Dan we are to be Raptured soon and then the world will be set up for WWIII for the First Four Seals and will start after Daniel 9:27 commences. Coming soon and we are going home soon.

          • Dan

            Ron, we’ll need a temple first. The moment the Israeli government shows its intent to rebuild the

            next temple ; that is the sign I’ve been waiting for.

          • MRH

            Ron: I’m going to share an overlooked passage which details when the first resurrection phase begins… 😉

            1Co 15:20-24 KJV – 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [Jesus’ resurrection]; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming (resurrection event). 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father [rapture event]; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power [judgment day].

            As the above declares [*], the resurrection prevails at Christs return, afterwards is the end of the world. And once we are resurrected we are no longer tied to the world as we will then be glorified with spiritual bodies and minds. As to what occurs immediately afterward, the bible only hints at things. But it does say that we will be judging the world and it’s dark angels. Which we can’t do presently as the dark angels are hidden from view, plus can still affect us negatively. Anyway, below is a short study I recently did called Resurrection & Rapture 🙂

            http://aeroventure.com/Resurrection&Rapture/Resurrection&Rapture.htm

            P.S. I know much within my study is contrary to tradition, but then so be it! Tradition is not always right in matters, especially end time mysteries. And plus I’m a researcher NOT a crowd follower. So if I see apparent error in someones teachings, I will challenge them on things. I’m not afraid to stand strong for my beliefs. Also God does not force us to believe however, and hence why cults exist. Example: If one desires to keep the law, then God will honor them in that belief. But if one desires better than law keeping, then God will open their eyes unto new grace knowledge. 😉

          • Ron

            You will not change my mind MRH, there is a Rapture, it is pretrib, and the person who revealed this to me was the Holy Spirit at the time I was spending at 300 + days of the year underway on a nuclear sub at the time and we had nothing but a KJV Bible so with all due respect do not go there please.

            The Lord taught me it then man’s knowledge to me DOES NOT supercede The Holy Spirit of God and His Personal

            instruction. Also do not use the word Tradition with Respect to God’s Holy Word God doesn’t change.

            There is a Rapture we meet him in the clouds all who are part of His Church Body, the resurrection of the dead happens later.

            And I am tired of arguing it.

            God Bless!

          • Ron

            Dan what will likely be the sequence of events will be the Rapture will happen, Damascus will get wiped out ( even if you look at it now Dan the city looks totally devestated!) and then God will put the hook in Russia’s jaws and the hordes that are destined to follow them ( remember battles now a days cann be started and finished in a couple of weeks) God will not allow Israel IMVHO to operate any equipment against this horde. Then God will strike them and all but 1/6 shall survive and the Isles ( which is all continents outside of where Israel sits) God will hit with Fire and Brimstone. After that Israel will be on fire for God and will want a Temple they have all the stones materials with which to build it and they are raising rare Red heifer’s somewhere in New Jersey. And in the course of all this The AC will step up to confirm the Treaty. At which time the seals will commence after Daniel 9:27 but I suspect you know much of this already.

            Blessings Dan hang in there a little longer we’ll be there VERY SOON!!!!!

          • MRH

            “You will not change my mind MRH, there is a Rapture, it is pretrib, and the person who revealed this to me was the Holy Spirit .. There is a Rapture we meet him in the clouds all who are part of His Church Body, the resurrection of the dead happens later.”

            Ron: I wouldn’t expect to change your mind regarding rapture, as we all believe whatever we want to believe, and it doesn’t matter what our religion or none is. One can’t force an atheist to believe in God can they? Or a Muslim to believe that Allah is really Satan disguised. Or convince a Buddhist that Buddhism is total nonsense. Or teach a Hindu that Kali is a demon? Or persuade a Jew that Jesus is the Messiah? No, and nor will God force such people to believe in him and his word. However if such folk decide to depart their delusions, then God will provide them a path unto him 😉

            But I ask you an honest question; “How can we be raptured before we are resurrected (changed)?”. Have you not read 1 Cor 15 yet? If you did, then you missed the below passage concerning the resurrection of the saints (dead, living), at Christs return. 🙁

            1Co 15:49-53 KJV – 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

            Note: As clearly stated above, the resurrection includes both the dead and living at Christs Return, which occurs at the last trumpet blast. Which I believe is also the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Now for the rapture passage 😉

            1Th 4:14-17 KJV – 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            Note: The word ‘prevent’ is Old English ‘precede’, and is also the Greek word for ‘precede’. φθάνω phthánō, fthan’-o; apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:—(already) attain, come, prevent.

            FYI Every devout Christian on the globe claims that the Holy Spirit revealed to them this or that secret knowledge. So the big question is; “What does the bible say in regards to such claims?”. As Christians are we not advised to go by scripture whenever possible, not just abide unto voice/s whispering sweet words in our ears? 😉

            Mar 12:24 KJV – 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

            Luk 24:27, 45 KJV – 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. … 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

            Jhn 5:39 KJV – 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

            Act 17:2, 11 KJV – 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, … 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

            P.S. Remember that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light, and his angels into ministers of holiness? So we need to continually test things as to information source. Is it really from God, or rather otherwise? And to do such we must compare in context if the voice in or head matches exactly what the bible states. Amen! 😉

          • Dan

            Ron, my avatar is my family crest The Clan (Macrae) the crest is a hand holding a sword with the motto
            (With Fortitude).

          • Ron

            Dan Thanks for sharing that, that is actually pretty cool I think.

  • Very good comments. Do not let. Fear determine your actions..Christians are to use Godly wisdom. Watching is a biblical command, preparing is a choice. Understanding death and resurrection will give you peace of mind.

    • Wendy

      Chester,
      That was well written and spot on!! May GOD bless you richly, Brother!

    • dan

      Thanks, Ron. Yes, it’s pretty cool.

      • Ron

        I take it your Irish Dan? I didn’t notice the name Macrae the first time. I am 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Seminole, 1/4 Spanish,

        1/8 English, and

        1/8 Scottish. Don’t know what my Clan would be for Boyle. My grandfather was from Barbados but sadly their records

        office burnt to the ground in the 1800’s I believe. Most of my family and my relatives are a mystery because my mom

        only wants attention for herself so she never stayed in contact with any of them, but what can you do? And if she

        doesn’t like what you are asking her she will suddenly change the subject and say something like “It’s a nice day out”

        “did you hear about this or I have to go”. She makes me laugh because she is so predictable and unsaved.

        The Irish, Scots, and Norwegians were some pretty tough cookies IMO.

        So you know MRH? His first name is Mark I take it? I am Glad his middle initial is not “L” Because that would be my

        Brothers and he doesn’t see eye to eye with me about The Lord and tries to tell (only 1 year or 2 after (claiming he is

        saved) me talking about God is a private matter. I read about how we are to talk about the Lord always as God says…

        Deuteronomy 6:5-9 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

        Well he hasn’t spoken to me since then, sadly he is a “compulsive liar” I pray he turns around and has accepted or will

        accept Jesus Christ.

        God Bless You Dan!

        • Dan

          Ron, I’m Scottish although Irish kinship wouldn’t surprise me.

          Yes, Mark is MRH and I met him here. However, we don’t agree on much when it comes to scripture other than

          of course, our risen savior which for me is my only requirement for anyone, and most anything else can be up for

          debate IMHO. Although I do understand if someone else would consider my views heretical; I do not.

          I know I have a special relationship with GOD and I wouldn’t be surprised if there are other who feel as I do.

          I see GOD as my father and I trust him to love me more than the father I was lucky enough to have here on earth;

          even if I disappoint him with the bad choices I make. However, I have suffered the consequences of bad decisions

          which is what happens when I don’t follow the right path GOD has set for me; as do we all.

          Blessings to you my friend!

  • Marine

    I remember a movie call A thief in the night. About missing the rapture. I was in a youth group at my church . Was probably around 12 years old . That movie had left an impression on me of being prepared for our LORD JESUS’s return . The Boy Scouts and the marine corps instilled in us preparedness . Remember it took our national guard about a week to get to Louisiana . That being said folks should have enough supplies to last at least a month. For the folks that are left behind, please do not go to s FEMA camp find refuge elsewhere . God Bless us all

    • Dan

      Marine , I too saw A thief in the night with a church youth group. I must have been only 8 or 9 at the time but it

      may be the reason eschatology has been an interest of mine going on 50+ years.

      After seeing the movie, strangely enough, I’ve never seen it again up until the internet.

      I’ve always wondered how many kids had seen that movie so seeing your post was nostalgic.

      Blessings

  • Laura Marie

    I live walking distance to a small airport. Blackhawk helicopters flying all over. Who knows what they are doing and I heard all the FEMA camp things and martial law. At first I was scared but I am saved. My daughters are saved and I don’t want to hide in some shelter. For what? Heaven is my home and the sooner the better because I want to be with Jesus!

  • Pete

    Assuring Christians (especially Americans) that God won’t let them go through any real tribulation but will instead rapture them outta here before the “s” really hits the fan: THAT is a multi-billion dollar business.

  • Dan

    Hey, Geoff ! It looks like your not the only one talking about this.

    http://www.realtor.com/news/trends/more-preppers-buying-property/

  • JA

    AMEN Geoffrey on your editor’s note.. I agree!! And Ill tell you one thing… I have been LOOKING up everyday…Anyday now!! COME LORD JESUS!!

  • Wendy

    Psalm 20:7
    “Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God.”

    I’ve always loved this verse and it is rarely more applicable than it is now!!!

    Don’t trust in MAN-MADE things,
    Don’t trust in other CREATIONS of God.

    Only the Great I AM is dependable~~ THANK YOU, LORD!

  • pam

    All driven by the doctrine of demons called FEAR. As usual the adversary wants Christians to think they too can save THEMSELVES. I pray that Christians can and will start encouraging each other in the faith through the Word of God. It saddens me to see the church reacting to Satan and not acting through their faith in Jesus Christ, we are Christian Soldiers not scared wilting pansies. Not one time does it say in the Word of God that our Armor consists of anything temporal.

    “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the WHOLE ARMOUR OF GOD, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having YOUR LOINS GIRT ABOUT WITH TRUTH, AND HAVING ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; and YOUR FEET SHOD WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; above all, TAKING THE SHEILD OF FAITH, WHEREWITH YE SHALL BE ABLE TO QUENCH ALL THE FIERY DARTS OF THE WICKED. and take the HELMET OF SALVATION, and the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, which is the WORD OF GOD: PRAYING ALWAYS WITH ALL PRAYER AND SUPPLICATION IN THE SPIRIT, AND WATCHING THEREUNTO WITH ALL PERSEVERANCE AND SUPPLICATION FOR ALL THE SAINTS” Ephesians 6:11-18

    Christians should be growing DAILY in the grace in knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, building a condo’s full of bible doctrine in their souls, his spiritual house in the soul is called an EDIFICATION COMPLEX, we are not told to be building temporal complexes made of steel to hide away. If disaster strikes this nation, and it will, and God keeps you alive, we still have a job to do as Christian Soldiers and Ambassadors for Christ and that is to forge ahead with the gospel of truth to people needing a savior. and to encourage one another in the faith. You are Royalty and Christian Soldiers, stand firm in the faith and carry on with the strength and might, and the magnificent artillery that only the Lord Jesus Christ can give. God bless.

  • pam

    I want to also say that I am in favor of our Second Amendment right to own firearms. I also believe nothing catastrophic will happen in the USA until they take away our right to own a firearm and that will be Obama’s swan song. We are distracted with things that matters not in this country. Meanwhile back at the ranch, Obama is tying up loose ends and a very loose end is the 2nd Amendment of the document that Satan needs destroyed as the First Amendment is already gone. Make no mistake we will loose the Second Amendment by the time he leaves office. Fear not the Lord Jesus Christ will prevail. These are exciting times, remember ARMOR OF GOD. Carry on Christian Soldiers!

  • Tracy

    @Pam,
    I just don’t think that Obama and his cronies will take away our Second Amendment rights. If so, that will be the day everything “blows” up. Millions here are locked and loaded.

    • Kaye

      And I quote “they can have my gun when they prize it out of my cold dead hand”

      • Ron

        Kaye I hope you take humor well.

        The word is supposed to be “PRY” however I thought about what you wrote and it does seem more appropriate

        in the sense that the wicked will see it as a “PRIZE out of your cold dead hand” but before they get it, it may very well

        cost them!

        God Bless You Kaye!

  • pam

    @Tracy Obama’s government is coming for our guns make no mistake about it.

  • There will be no unity when hell hits this country. This is what our presidents, repub and democrat, have prepared for those who love them…Trump and Hillary both know it:
    http://the-informer.net/index.php/conspiracy-articles/127-ice-agent-commits-suicide-in-nyc-leaves-note-revealing-gov-t-plans-to-round-up-disarm-americans-during-economic-bank-collapse

    • Dan

      Please give us a source to this article Sola? Because as troubling as this article is; without a source it’s probably

      false.

    • Sola scriptura

      It was a link on Shining in the Dark. Obviously, those who run the world and thus, the media, aren’t going to allow this to spread. I think it lists where it came from in the article – but seriously, don’t we all already know this? The video evidence and testimony from inside the government has established that this info is true for a decade plus. All this does is dial in the timing. The evidence is absolutely overwhelming. If you didn’t know about this or doubt it you best start doing some research because it’s coming. The good news? Jesus wins:

      http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2014/12/28/hell-and-the-wrath-of-god-almighty-what-do-the-scriptures-say/

      • Dan

        There’s your proof Sola. I’d forgotten about my post to you but after reading your post to me I took your suggestion

        and did more research.

        http://www.snopes.com/new-york-ice-agent-suicide-note/

        It seems all happened except for the suicide note which the police claim there was none. The story is not all over

        news because people shoot themselves all the time. However, if there would have been a note such as the one we were

        led to believe was there ; this would have been a huge story.

        We both know we’re in the last days my brother ,but we only want the truth.

        • Sola scriptura

          Snopes isn’t real amigo. Snopes is run by a liberal couple. Just as Alex jones is controlled so is snopes. Sorry bro. It’s true and is consist with all we know anyway. It’s very interesting how hard you are fighting this. Hmmmm. They would spend every resource to hide and discredit the note, just as they have done for 911 and JFk. As for me, I believe the note over the main stream media – as I believe Cruz had five verifiable affairs….though it never made the news in any significant fashion they protect there own and they quash as much real info as possible. Dis info is everywhere. They are smart and careful and rich and Omni present. Be smart peeps. Research everything. There is tons of info in the exact topics in that note – so whether you believe it or not the facts are true. Dan – tell who ever is running you that you are working hard.

          • dan

            Sorry snopes is real bro.

            As for me, I believe the note over the main stream media – as I believe Cruz had five verifiable affairs….though it never made the news in any significant fashion they protect there own

            So, you compare a suicide with a note that definitely would have made headlines to Cruz’s affairs?

            Why am I fighting this? Good question ! Maybe I don’t have enough conflict in my life(laugh).

            We can agree to disagree no problem, but I gotcha ! Just be more careful with your research .

            Dan tell who ever is running you that you are working hard. What! You’ll have to restructure that sentence for

            me to understand your meaning. Buy a Thesaurus and get back to me. : )

  • CHAR

    Sola Scriptura, well that’s pretty scarey, but we MUST trust in the Lord and He will see us through whether we’re here or not. Maybe that’s when we will be raptured (we all hope). So much for stocking up on food then. It won’t do us much good if they’re just going to take it and what if we decide to have cash on hand. I suppose they will take that too. Thank you for sharing this with us. Oh Lord, come quickly!

    • Sola scriptura

      Amen!!

  • Heather

    Thank you Sola Scriptura for posting the link. The following link is from a newspaper, “The Victoria Advocate” from Feb 2008. I know that the story in this paper happened a long time ago, but it helps to show us a pattern. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent, Mark Juvette was found dead in his home after committing suicide.

    The story to me goes on to show a frame up by his colleagues. The story contradicts itself. It states there was a standoff between him and 3 of his colleagues, but yet, he was found dead the following morning? Sounds like murder to me, to shut him up.
    Whats interesting is that he had the same exact job this other Ice agent had from the link you posted Sola.
    I wonder how many other Ice agents have committed suicide, or, been murdered to silence them?

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&dat=20080228&id=XZc_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=FVYMAAAAIBAJ&pg=4500,450556&hl=en

    • Dan

      Heather, I’m sure our government is killing us without consequence and the corruption in Washington is part of the

      reason. There was a reporter who broke the story about Rubio’s past homosexuality and this same reporter was found

      dead in an apt stairwell with a gun by his side. The police ruled it a suicide but there was no reason for it.

      I believe and fear one of the next things our government will do is regulate the internet to shut us up or to hide

      things from us. What then?

    • Sola scriptura

      Your welcome. Good pull on the facts. Many dissenters have died in this fashion, The fact that they have s guy fighting this story so hard – even though the underlying facts are true even if, somehow, the note is false, shows you how much they want his story silenced. We can’t stop what’s coming but we can at least be ready and spend more and more time in the word and preaching the pure gospel.

      Never trust the mainstream media and even test the alternative media. Alex Jones is fully controlled. He speaks 80% truth to gain trust, but then send dis info out as well. It’s pretty brilliant. As Lenin said, the best way to defeat your opposition is to be your opposition by controlling them from the inside.

  • CHAR

    Well, it’s actually good news that the Sola Scripture attachment is untrue. Unfortunately, I already emailed it to several people and now I have to tell them according to snopes it’s not true. I printed it out and I was going to give it to my (unsaved) son to read and thank the Lord I didn’t. How embarrassing. I know you had nothing to do with it being untrue, Sola. You believed it too.

    • Sola scriptura

      Char – it’s true. Snopes is controlled. It gives 99% legit info to gain trust – but dis info when they are told to shut down stories like this. Satan and his agents are at their best when they mix darkness and light, truth and lies…What that man said in his note inconsistent with 10 years of leaks…and in a few months at the latest we will all know for sure. Strap it on tight.

      • sola Scriptura

        not inconsistent, “is consistent.” 🙂

      • DC

        I don’t trust Snopes, especially after they said that stories about companies (Kraft, Pepsi) using fetal tissue in their products isn’t true. I believe it is, esp. after the PP videos came out.

        • dan

          DC, first eeek! I don’t drink sodas but after hearing that possible fact how could anyone buy another soda?

          DC , is this the story you’re referring to?

          Snopes, in a post last updated on March 18, basically comes to a similar conclusion as the aforementioned, calling the claim that “Pepsi uses material from aborted fetuses in it products” a “mixture” of “false” and “undetermined.” Snopes states it is “false” to claim Pepsi products contain aborted baby cells, but it is “undetermined” whether Senomyx uses aborted cells in R&D, basically because Senonymx won’t answer the question. But Snopes goes into great detail, citing articles by CBS News, Forbes, and Miami New Times, to corroborate that Senomyx indeed does. There is actually no question on that point, so Snopes should change “undetermined” to “true.” – See more at: http://www.jillstanek.com/2012/04/facts-about-pepsi-aborted-fetal-cell-controversy/#sthash.1car7TNU.dpuf

          • DC

            Yes, that’s the story. The original was from naturalnews.com and it lists all the companies that use fetal tissue–everything from cosmetics to vaccines plus food/drink we consume.

            http://www.naturalnews.com/049367_aborted_babies_flavor_chemicals_food_corporations.html

          • Dan

            It looks to me like Snopes was trying, to be honest to a fault rather than making the blanket statement

            Pepsi products contain aborted fetuses; which is false.

            Snopes admits they do make mistakes but there is no denying the fact that they’re trying to separate

            the facts from fiction; wouldn’t you agree?

  • Dan

    What a coincidence. This showed up in my mail just after I posted about it. It’s the journalist found dead after writing

    about Rubio’s possible homosexuality.

    http://freedomoutpost.com/journalist-who-exposed-marco-rubios-sodomite-ties-ted-cruzs-fathers-ties-to-lee-harvey-oswald-found-dead/

  • CHAR

    Sola Scriptura, Oh my goodness, I don’t know what’s going on these days. I just don’t know what to believe anymore, but like you said, we will see in a few months what’s going on with this idiot in the WH. Actually, he’s not an idiot, he’s pretty smart (in an evil way). Well, again as you say, buckle up for the ride!

  • MRH

    These apocalyptic prep folk are blind fools as none can escape judgment day unless they have Christ as all die eventually. As for prepping for common tribulations, that’s a whole other issue in and of itself. However many such things occur without warning, especially earthquakes. And no deep bunker can withstand an earthquake. Storms and fires are really the only predictable natural disaster types. However if ones home is destroyed by such, what good is stockpiling food and supplies even in a storm shelter? Without electricity and gas, one can’t cook or cool food, nor use electrical devices. So one simply becomes a homeless victim in a temporary shelter with many.

  • DC
  • DC

    This one’s even more detailed. Reminds us of how the apostles went out two-by-two with NOTHING and the Lord provided. The whole article is found here: https://gracethrufaith.com/topical-studies/are-we-hedging-our-bets/

    Here’s an excerpt:

    And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

    “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

    “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

    “This is how it will be for anyone who stores things up for himself but is not rich toward God.” (Luke 12:16-21)

  • Ron

    There is only ONE WAY to be safe from the Coming Apocalypse…

    ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME

    There is no other way to be protected and avoid it.

  • Wendy

    Preach it, Ron….I LOVE IT!!!

    Are any of you Lisa Haven “fans”? She had several ways to share her Independent News (she is considered a well-known source), but I prefer her YouTube channel, to which I subscribe.

    She is a very intelligent, young Christian woman with a heart for sharing truth, both Biblical and worldly happenings. Check her out.

    Also I receive daily info from The Common Sense Show (www.thecommonsenseshow.com) that has blown me away. Again, considered Independent Media.

    Does anyone know of any reason why I shouldn’t trust either or both of these sources?? Because I do pass them on!

    Thanks, and may He bless you!

    • Ron

      Thank You for the link when I get a chance I will check her out.

      God Bless You Wendy!

  • CHAR

    Ron, looks like you have studied the end times very well. I will have to keep this comment you wrote to Dan because it surely does show how things will probably pan out. Thank you for writing this out for us to read and realize what’s happening daily. It is comforting to read that we will be there soon! PTL! Blessings to you, Ron.

    • Ron

      As near as I can understand and what The Lord has revealed this seems to be course of things to come. It is possible some may happen simultaneously.

      It may be that Assad will likely toss a chemical weapon towards Israel and that may get the whole ball rolling.

      Israel possibly nukes them for it (Isaiah 17) and then the whole muslim community as well as Russia is outraged by it

      and then Ezekial 38/39 happens.

      Here is a possibility I feel about Damascus of late, is this how it is destroyed?

      Iran finally gets their nukes and sends one to Israel directly and God interferes with it to send it to Damascus and

      like with all things in the Middle East they blame the nuking of Damascus on Israel instead. And with a major world

      outcry over Israel’s use of nuke weapons ( even though they didn’t use them, they get blamed for it! ) Psalms 83 and

      Ezekial 38 /39 follow. It is sad to think about all the lives lost in that battle but exciting to see God’s Power First

      Hand. No matter we are going home soon Sister Char! God Bless You! I Pray All is well for you and your family!

  • MRH

    “You will not change my mind MRH, there is a Rapture, it is pretrib, and the person who revealed this to me was the Holy Spirit .. There is a Rapture we meet him in the clouds all who are part of His Church Body, the resurrection of the dead happens later.”

    Ron: I wouldn’t expect to change your mind regarding rapture, as we all believe whatever we want to believe, and it doesn’t matter what our religion or none is. One can’t force an atheist to believe in God can they? Or a Muslim to believe that Allah is really Satan disguised. Or convince a Buddhist that Buddhism is total nonsense. Or teach a Hindu that Kali is a demon? Or persuade a Jew that Jesus is the Messiah? No, and nor will God force such people to believe in him and his word. However if such folk decide to depart their delusions, then God will provide them a path unto him 😉

    But I ask you an honest question; “How can we be raptured before we are resurrected (changed)?”. Have you not read 1 Cor 15 yet? If you did, then you missed the below passage concerning the resurrection of the saints (dead, living), at Christs return. 🙁

    1Co 15:49-53 KJV – 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Note: As clearly stated above, the resurrection includes both the dead and living at Christs Return, which occurs at the last trumpet blast. Which I believe is also the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Now for the rapture passage 😉

    1Th 4:14-17 KJV – 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Note: The word ‘prevent’ is Old English ‘precede’, and is also the Greek word for ‘precede’. φθάνω phthánō, fthan’-o; apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:—(already) attain, come, prevent.

    FYI Every devout Christian on the globe claims that the Holy Spirit revealed to them this or that secret knowledge. So the big question is; “What does the bible say in regards to such claims?”. As Christians are we not advised to go by scripture whenever possible, not just abide unto voice/s whispering sweet words in our ears? 😉

    Mar 12:24 KJV – 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

    Luk 24:27, 45 KJV – 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. … 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    Jhn 5:39 KJV – 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Act 17:2, 11 KJV – 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, … 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    P.S. Remember that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light, and his angels into ministers of holiness? So we need to continually test things as to information source. Is it really from God, or rather otherwise? And to do such we must compare in context if the voice in or head matches exactly what the bible states. Amen! 😉

  • MRH

    You will not change my mind MRH, there is a Rapture, it is pretrib, and the person who revealed this to me was the Holy Spirit… = So I’m only a friend as long as I agree with you?

    The Lord taught me it then man’s knowledge to me DOES NOT supercede The Holy Spirit of God and His Personal instruction. = And how are you certain that the voice is Gods?

    Also do not use the word Tradition with Respect to God’s Holy Word God doesn’t change. = And is not Gods Holy Word the bible?

    There is a Rapture we meet him in the clouds all who are part of His Church Body, the resurrection of the dead happens later. = So you’ve chosen to ignore my above scripture proving otherwise?

    And I am tired of arguing it. = Because now I’m the enemy for challenging you by the bible?

    God Bless! = Oh really?

    • Ron

      MRH do you know how childish that sounds???? Do you????

      MRH Quote:” So I’m only a friend as long as I agree with you?”

      Did I say you weren’t my friend? Go back and reread all the previous posts I have heard all the different Rapture “THEORIES”

      that I care to hear that is all you want to talk go ahead but that subject is closed for me.

      I only ignore what I already know is wrong and you are really showing yourself to be a big A _ _. ( fill in the blanks)

      I think you think waaaaay toooo much of yourself and act like you are self important, you sound very narcissistic.

      I read what you posted and it is already painful enough for me to write.

  • MRH

    NTEB Folk: Isn’t it ironic how that as long as one follows the blind crowd they are considered a flock friend, but the moment one decides to challenge the crowd they become an enemy of the flock? What kind of Christian fellowship is that I do ask? Sounds more like a corporate or military game to me; “Yes/No Sir!” or “Yes/No Ma’am!”. Isn’t that what Hitler and the Nazi regime were all about (control of populace)? Obey or die! Does the bible agree with ‘follow the blind crowd philosophy’?

    Mat 15:12-14 KJV – 12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

    Just think where we would be if Paul had bowed down to the Jewish leaders instead of challenging them? And this evil phenomena isn’t just here, but in all Christian churches and fellowship forums. And as well in the world at large, and rebels are NOT tolerated! Consider below subliminal message in 1960’s National Anthem broadcast sign-off 💡 😯

    TRUST THE US GOVERNMENT
    GOD IS REAL GOD IS WATCHING
    BELIEVE IN GOVERNMENT GOD
    REBELLION WILL NOT BE TOLERATED
    OBEY CONSUME OBEY CONSUME
    BUY ULTRA BUY NAOMI
    WORSHIP CONSUME OBEY BELIEVE
    DO NOT QUESTION GOVERNMENT

    http://vigilantcitizen.com/vigilantreport/broadcast-national-anthem-1960s-contain-subliminal-messages/

    P.S. You naive people (sheeple) are being deceived on many levels by the powers that be (shadow government)! You vote for demons (election game). Does God tell Christians to even vote? It’s all a sham anyway, as leaders are chosen by the elite. You attend demon churches (varied cults). You listen to demon preachers and teachers, and worship them. You fail to understand NWO agendas; 666, 911, RFID, FEMA, HAARP, DIA, DARPA, NASA, UFO, etc. You deny the modern Illuminati exists; Freemason, Bilderberg, CFR, TLC, etc! And you deny more recent NWO agendas; ISIS, LGBT, etc.

    Isa 29:15 KJV – 15 Woe unto them [demons] that seek deep to hide their counsel [agendas] from the LORD, and their works are in the dark [hidden], and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

    Eph 6:12 KJV – 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood [humans], but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places [demons].

    You think God will rapture you from future tribulation. Does the bible state such? My KJV bible states that we are saved from wrath NOT tribulation. But when I provide biblical proof you blindly ignore it, and label me a false prophet and teacher? Why? Were not Jesus and the prophets and apostles given such labels? You people (sheeple) need to wake up from your slumber unto the real world beyond the hive that you live in. The hive or matrix created by the invisible demons whom rule this world from the shadows. Whom hide behind signs and symbols and create evil agendas behind closed doors (White House, etc), or in other secret places (Bohemian Grove, etc). While feeding us ‘demon’ candy to keep us content (brainwashed); entertainment (magic, movies, music, news, sports, etc), technologies (*), etc.

    So do you folk want to continue living in ‘their’ happy safe boxes (all is hunky dory), or are you ready to step outside them? 💡

    *Many ‘demon (worldly)’ technologies are useful for both comfort and convenience, and some serve as Christian witness tools (computers; web, phone). I rely on much such myself, and even enjoy some worldly entertainment distractions, but don’t worship such garbage. Rather I expose such demonic games in as much detail as I can. So forgive my intrusion here…

    My NEW page offer: 😀
    http://aeroventure.com/Wonderland/Wonderland.htm
    (if you like sweet carrots, and love exploring rabbit holes?) 💡

    • Dan

      Mark, I haven’t seen you here in awhile. How’s California ? Vote Trump!

      Mark, you’ve been here as long as I have and this issue of when the rapture will happen has been beaten to death

      here. You already know most everyone here believes in a pre-trib rapture. However, as you may remember I believe

      when it happens we will know but I prefer a pre-trib rapture. But it’s not worth arguing about; right?

      • MRH

        Hi Dan: I’m still here as passion prevails 😉

        California? Are you not living here too still?

        TRUMP? Sorry, but I don’t vote for demons anymore brother. And Trump is a demon (like them all). See below proof at bottom of page link 💡 Also does the bible tell us to vote in the world? If so, then can you provide scripture?

        Concerning the rapture, I’ve been deeply studying things. And from what it seems, there are two parts or stages to end things. Anyway, too complex to detail my thoughts here, but please consider my new below study page on topic? 💡

        http://aeroventure.com/Resurrection&Rapture/Resurrection&Rapture.htm

        P.S. It really doesn’t matter unto end time speculation, as bible prophecy does not follow our fantasies, but Gods realities. Of which knowledge spans the centuries since the creation and unto paradise 😉

        Isa 46:8-13 KJV – 8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

        Hint: The above passage includes an allusion to the Antichrist (verse 11). Obama is the evil bird from the east (Islam), and he’s headed unto the UN (USA) as next SG! Which will make him KING! Do you not yet understand things?

        Hint: All true Christians (saints) will be in the first resurrection (unto eternal life! HEAVEN), and all heathen (sinners) will be in the second resurrection (unto eternal death? HELL). Only God knows whom will be in paradise! 😉

        • Ron

          Quote:”Only God knows whom will be in paradise!”:End Quote

          The Christian who is Saved knows they are going to Heaven

          to and beyond a shadow of a doubt! Not because we are anything by ourselves, but because we put our Faith and Trust

          in Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit is The Seal of and Guarantee of Our Salvation.

          • MRH

            Ron: I wasn’t referring to the saved Christian. I mean’t those at the GWT 😉

            Rev 20:11-15 KJV – 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

            Note: The GWT is only for the heathen after the millennium. All saints are resurrected beforehand, and thus can’t be doomed to hell 😀

            Rev 20:4-8 KJV – 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

            P.S. Gods mercy is far greater than ours, and more than we can possibly comprehend 😉

        • Dan

          Mark, so you’ve moved and no longer are in California? I know your family’s business allowed for your occupancy

          in Cali. Anyway, no matter.

          Mark, we both know you don’t like to read books so the information you get is from the internet
          (we’ve had this discussion before) so it’s not reliable; as your source is the internet.

          You must study the book Mark to understand what is in it. GOD has given no revelation through the internet

          as you would have us believe.

          There are no Humanoid/Lizard demons walking among us ; as you would have us believe is revelation you have gleened

          from the internet. This type of insight is demonic my brother and you should rebuke it and discard it.

          Mark, I pray you will go back to scripture coming only from a source such as a book because the internet

          which can be helpful in so many ways has instead been a curse that has led you astray.

          I have no doubt Mark in your love for our lord Jesus but I do question your judgment concerning the internet.

          • MRH

            Dan: I haven’t moved, but why did you think I did? As for the web as an information portal, it requires sifting and sorting. But the same would be with mans books. As for the bible, what does it matter if book or online format? Both I and NTEB use Blue Letter Bible. Plus a bible book format would be useless online, unless one manually typed in scripture. 🙁

            Regarding the reptilian thing, I wasn’t referring to aliens. I was inferring demons occupying human hosts and manifesting serpent traits. FYI Demons can control the whole host body and mind in seemingly impossible ways 😉

            “GOD has given no revelation through the internet as you would have us believe” = Well If you consider the web an unreliable information portal on end time prophecy, then why the heck are you hanging out here at NTEB? 😉

            P.S. People deceive no matter what be the source format; book, web, etc. Basically if it is mans work, then it needs scrutiny. And it doesn’t matter whom the author is or how popular they are. In fact most prophecy books I don’t trust, as they are likely money based. And the same goes for prophecy DVD authors. Money is their game 🙁

    • Ron

      MRH you really have some nerve! What just because I didn’t respond to your post to me.

      I’ll let you know I have been SAVED BY JESUS CHRIST, WITH NO MAN OR SATAN DISGUISED AS AN ANGEL TELLING ME HOW TO DO IT.

      I have been saved 27 years this past Febuary. You obviously do not fully read what people say.

      I am an Ex Navy Man A SUBMARINER and when I got saved was in the Navy. I was The chief of the combat systems department so…….

      If I trained in the Navy to know my enemy,

      That would stand to reason it was the very first thing I sought to know to protect myself as a Christian.

      I asked The Lord to teach me all about my enemies Satan and His demons.

      I really get very tired of people coming along claiming we have been deceived for all these year!!!

      Based on a premise like that no one has gotten Saved since John on the Isle of Patmos, does that even sound reasonable???

      Does it sound like something that God would allow complete generations on Earth for a 50 to 100 year time frame to ever

      hear The Gospel about His Son?????????? His Son Who He even Separated Himself from when He died such a horrible death

      to buy back our worthless selves do you think God would allow His Son’s Immense Sacrifice to be wasted as such??????

      Then suddenly someone who proves themselves worthy (In THEIR OWN MINDS, Now That is a real legend!) after all these

      years only knows the Truth, First WE ARE ALL UNWORTHY, SECOND HOW VAIN ONE MUST BE IN THEIR MIND TO BELIEVE THAT!!!!!

      What does God say about His Children?????????

      According to you own Words God cannot keep His Children who have grown up to eating meat and not drinking milk anymore

      from being decieved.

      What does this say….

      John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

      John 10:4-5 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

      The God I know is ALL POWERFUL I gave my will over to Him the day I repented of my sins and asked Jesus Christ to come

      into my life. I may fail him, but He Will Never Fail Me. I am weak He Is All Powerful. Nothing is so Big that He cannot

      defeat or overcome it for me, and nothing is too small for Him such that if I am concerned about it So Is He!

      I hate it when people put God in a Box ( I’m guilty of it too in times past, we all are. )

      You said a few things that almost sounded like hissing to me…

      1.MRH Quote:And plus I’m a researcher NOT a crowd follower.:End Quote

      There may be a few here who maaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy be crowd followers I don’t know I am not God, but the reason many of these

      people are here because Churches are corrupt these days and they have been hurt by them or cast out! So they come here

      to fellowship with True Brothers and Sisters in Jesus The Christ.

      MRH Quote:But if one desires better than law keeping, then God will open their eyes unto new grace knowledge.:End
      Quote

      We have opened our eyes to receiving Grace by allowing God to remove our scales and allowing us to see we needed Jesus

      The Christ.

      3.MRH Quote:So if I see apparent error in someones teachings, I will challenge them on things. I’m not afraid to stand strong for my beliefs.:End Quote

      I Only Care about what God Says, not what a man says especially if God has already revealed it to me.

      4.MRH Quote:However if such folk decide to depart their delusions, then God will provide them a path unto him:End Quote

      NOT TO HIS CHILDREN HE WON’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KEEPS US IN CHECK OR IS THIS SOMETHING GOD ISN’T ABLE TO DO?

      MRH Quote:“How can we be raptured before we are resurrected (changed)?”.:End Quote

      Here we go again The god ( little g ) in the box! We are given glorified Bodies on the way up.

      Enoch was taken Alive to Heaven, don’t forget Elijah.

      MRH Quote: Note: As clearly stated above, the resurrection includes both the dead and living at Christs Return, **which occurs at the last trumpet blast. Which I believe is also the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Now for the rapture passage:End Quote

      The Rapture is unknown day or time. The Seventh Trumpet is expected time for those during the Tribulation.

      ANSWER ME THIS! IS ALL THE SEALS, TRUMPETS, AND VIALS OF REVELATION A JUDGMENT AGAINST MANKIND FOR THEIR TREATMENT

      OF ISRAEL AND FOR THEIR REJECTION OF GOD, AND GOD IS PUNISHING THEM FOR ALL THEIR WICKED WAYS??????

      YES IT IS!

      You have read your Bible right?????? Then God CANNOT HAVE HIS CHURCH BEING PUNISHED SIDE BY SIDE WITH UNREGENERATE

      MANKIND! Lot and his wife had to removed, Noah and his family had to be removed from the Judgment in the Ark.

      NOW IF THESE SINNERS ( THEY HAD NO PERMANENT HOLY SPIRIT LIKE WE DO OR CONTINUOUSLY FORGIVEN SINS ) WERE REMOVED

      FROM A TIME OF JUDGMENT THEN BECAUSE OF OUR POSITION IN JESUS CHRIST WE WILL TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      We are Holy vessels they weren’t and DID NOT have Jesus Christ’s Righteousness like we have before God!

      I want you to show to show me where after Jesus both praises and rebukes His Church in The First 3 Chapters where the church is mentioned in Revelation again.

      The only time the church is seen is in Heaven and returning with Christ to Armeggedon on Our Horses ( yes everyone we

      will each have our own horse this should make animal and pet lovers excited!)

      What do you notice about the progression of The Seals, Trumpets, then Vials? Do you see it?

      The Lord has revealed it to me of late and also explains the Trib Saints being executed by the 5th seal.

      I’ll let you answer me on that one since you have given everyone here YOUR PIOUS RANT!

      I have saved the best for last…..

      MRH Quote:P.S. Remember that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light, and his angels into ministers of holiness? So we need to continually test things as to information source. Is it really from God, or rather otherwise? And to do such we must compare in context if the voice in our head matches exactly what the bible states.:End Quote

      Voice in our head??????

      Let me explain something this is where Satan CANNOT do like God can!! Not one Iota.

      I had a demon speak to me after a car wreck and he said “Must not be a very good God to let that happen to you!”

      Well I turned and said get out of here! Boy I was mad at it!!!!!!!

      Now Listen to what I say very Carefully…

      A spirit’s voice is the same as hearing a voice in our ears, EXCEPT ( It is a strange experience no doubt ) You

      hear all the words plainly in our minds.

      The Holy Spirit DOES NOT SPEAK WITH AN AUDIBLE VOICE.

      HE DOES SPEAK TO US, BUT IT IS IN SUCH A WAY, THAT THERE IS NO WAY SATAN AND HIS DEMONS CAN IMITATE IT.

      HE GIVES US AN AWARENESS OF WHAT HE HAS SAID THAT CANNOT RIGHTLY BE DESCRIBED BY ANY KNOWN METHOD OF COMMUNICATION

      YOU JUST KNOW THAT YOU KNOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS SPOKEN TO YOU AS IN….

      John 10:4-5 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

      If you are hearing voices they are likely demonic, The good thing is though they may be able to put thoughts in a persons

      head, ONLY GOD CAN READ OUR MINDS.

      Now Just because I didn’t come running to respond to your e-mail about The Rapture or my Salvation Don’t call anyone here

      or myself a hypocrite what does God say about that?

      Romans 2:21-23 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

      The very thing you accuse us of you are guilty of said same or else how could you so easily spot a fault in another,

      WE ALL have a certain amount of hypocrisy, some more than others but from what I have seen of mature Christians they

      try very very hard to accuse no one but only have Love and Compassion for others.

      I don’t have anything against you MRH other than the nasty post you did and it really got my ackles up, I forgive you

      for it, but why would you want to say all those vile hateful things against those who have done nothing to you.

      Not everything in life is able to be viewed thru rose colored glasses, and sometimes the Truth hurts. Or were you angry

      because someone didn’t respond to something you felt you had special knowledge of? I don’t know all the people here, but

      this is a fact about us as Christians….

      Even though we are separated by miles and only talking thru a computer which is an inanimate object we know our fellow

      Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ…

      Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

      So even thru a post we know our Brethren thru The Holy Spirit.

      So if someone doesn’t jump right up and answer your posts doesn’t make them a bad person ( MRH YOU BEST LEAVE A REPLY

      OPTION YOURSELF which you haven’t done with quite a few, or is your word the final word and that is why you do it, I am

      not saying you are but I am asking. But you do not leave a reply option. )

      People have Jobs, Families, Appointments, places to go, people to see, things to do, grocery shop, e.t.c. If you are

      single you have no idea how much time being a parent actually consumes.

      The Satan as an Angel of Light I do take offense to Since I have the weapon of ……

      God’s Word….

      1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

      If they cannot confess word for word I confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God

      It’s a demon or a false prophet ( same difference in my thought )

      • Tracy

        @Ron,
        Don’t worry, just keep posting. The Rapture timing causes a lot of temper-flares on this site.
        Keep looking up.

        • Ron

          I will Tracy, it doesn’t flare my temper but it did his. I mean how many times does the very same thing need to be

          posted up here on Pre-Trib I pray the ones who believe other than Pre-Trib are saved so they can see how foolish they

          will look before The Lord. Show a man who would tell his bride I will beat the you know what out of you before the

          wedding and I will show you a bride that is gone. Did you read his two tirades?

          God Bless!

      • MRH

        Ron: Did you not read my study called Resurrection and Rapture? My guess is NOT, or you just quickly skimmed it in disgust? 🙁

        MRH you really have some nerve! What just because I didn’t respond to your post to me. = Sorry I’m the impatient type, also I get confused by silence 🙁

        I have been saved 27 years this past Febuary. You obviously do not fully read what people say. = What does this all have to do with salvation?

        I really get very tired of people coming along claiming we have been deceived for all these year!!! = Many Christians are confounded by end time issues, as the bible doesn’t tell all in black and white. The bible isn’t a Dick and Jane novel, it requires deep study to understand 😉

        You said a few things that almost sounded like hissing to me… = Just frustration venting, nothing personal brother 🙁

        There may be a few here who maaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy be crowd followers… So they come here to fellowship with True Brothers and Sisters in Jesus The Christ. = Yes I know that. By NOT a crowd follower, I meant I don’t agree with all others opinions or beliefs 😉

        We are given glorified Bodies on the way up. = Uhmm.. NO. We first must be changed. When this global miracle occurs, our earthly bodies remain behind in whatever form we left them in (flesh, dust, ashes) 😉

        Enoch was taken Alive to Heaven, don’t forget Elijah. = Actually Enoch died according to Hebrews 11. As for Elijah, it wasn’t a rapture event either 😉

        Gen 5:21-24 KJV – 21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

        Heb 11:5, 13 KJV – 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. … 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

        Note: The word ‘translate’ means to transport (move). So God moved Enoch somewhere secret to die. Just as he did with Moses. ετατίθημι metatíthēmi, met-at-ith’-ay-mee; from G3326 and G5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:—carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

        Note: Enoch was included in the list of past dead saints. Also note Gen 5:23 ‘And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years’. That means Enoch died at 365 years of age. As all men die first, afterwards comes judgment 😉

        2Ki 2:8-13 KJV – 8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground. 9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;

        Note: The biblical story of Elijah in 2 Kings above ends with a symbolic transfer of the role as prophet. Which was to end with Elijah being taken away from Elisha, and his mantle given unto him. Has nothing to do with Elijah being raptured. In fact the word ‘heaven’ can mean several things depending on context; Gods throne, cosmos, sky. Elijah was simply lifed into the sky by God and moved away from Elisha. End of Elijah’ story!

        Honestly, people need to stop interjecting theories into the stories of Enoch and Elijah and Moses, as such pollutes the truth in matters 😡

        The Rapture is unknown day or time. The Seventh Trumpet is expected time for those during the Tribulation. = The seventh trumpet begins the end of the world.. day of the Lord.. vials of wrath.

        Rev 10:7 KJV – 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

        Note: The ‘mystery of God’ is the resurrection, as Paul proclaims; 1Co 15:51 KJV – 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

        Rev 11:15 KJV – 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

        Note: When the seventh angel first sounds (resurrection), the world game (age of man) is over! The second sounding occurs at the end of the world (gathering of saints in heaven)! Matthew 24:31 😉

        What do you notice about the progression of The Seals, Trumpets, then Vials? Do you see it? = Yes, but not exactly as you do. I believe we are living in the times of the; churches, seals, trumpets.. NOT vials 😉

        The Lord has revealed it to me of late and also explains the Trib Saints being executed by the 5th seal. = Actually the 5th seal, like the prior 4 seals comprises history unto resurrection. The 6th seal will be the time of wrath, also Matthew 24:29. Connect the dots brother 😉

        The Holy Spirit DOES NOT SPEAK WITH AN AUDIBLE VOICE. = I know, God speaks in our heads or minds 😉 My ‘ear’ was figurative language 🙂

        If you are hearing voices they are likely demonic… = I don’t hear audible voices, just thoughts 😉

        Now Just because I didn’t come running to respond to your e-mail about The Rapture or my Salvation Don’t call anyone here or myself a hypocrite what does God say about that? = When did I ever call you a hypocrite?

        I don’t have anything against you MRH other than the nasty post you did… = I was just stating observational facts in general, nothing personal 😉

        So if someone doesn’t jump right up and answer your posts doesn’t make them a bad person .. But you do not leave a reply option. = Forgive my Aspergers Syndrome, but what exactly is a ‘reply option’?

    • Howdy MRH, WOW! You really castigate the people on this strand…really. Actually, there are many on this strand who are very aware of all the organizations that you listed and all their nefarious plans–you are not alone in that boat. I have been following this stuff since the mid 70’s so I have read quite a bit of literature and read oodles of “managed” headlines in the newspapers. One of the greatest gifts that GOD can give a person, next to salvation by Grace, is a spirit of discernment. Certainly, not all on this strand may have that, but they do deserve edification…not castigation…for not having it. It IS a gift of GOD, after all. I think that where you are meeting opposition is proclaiming that the rapture happens at the seventh trumpet. 1 Cor 15:52 is the verse that people build this doctrine on. When I asked you for a second witness, I was looking to see if you had scriptural support for that doctrine other than that one verse…you never supplied any. One has to be very wary of doctrine based on one scripture. MRH, my friend, the JWs made a living and built a cult on taking one verse out of revelation…the 144,000…and cling to that dearly. Even after the 144,001st convert was made, they had to restructure their doctrine to support there erroneous claims. They continue to change or alter their doctrine to suit their purposes (I’m sure that you know all this anyway, but I feel compelled). I have talked with several people who claim that the rapture is at the 7th trumpet and they all…to a man…cite 1 Cor 15:52. However, they can never offer a second witness (scripture) to legitimize their belief. The vast, vast majority of believers are pre-trib rapture believers. Personally, I go with those odds, but I also “search the scriptures” to see if “these things be so”. Scripture supports a pre-trib rapture, not only in verses, but also in typology. Actually, MRH, the people on this strand who disagree with you really care about you because they see error in your claim (as I do), and want to help you. Nothing wrong with that…some just come across a little more zealously than others. There is an old computer acronym…GIGO (garbage in-garbage out). That also goes with the Bible. We all are products of what we are taught or even learn on our own. I talk with sincere believers who think that demons are in the days of JESUS only, the giants of Genesis 6 came from the mating of the sons of Seth with the Daughters of Cain (zero scriptural evidence for that, but they believe it because that is what they learned in seminary or church), Matthew 24 is only for the Jews, we don’t need to study the Old Testament because we are under Grace, and the list could go on. At least one thing we all have in common and it is the most important thing–we are all covered by the Blood of the Lamb and saved by Grace. Saved from what? Saved from sin..but also saved from the wrath of GOD, which is the GREAT Tribulation…the time period of GOD”S wrath on those who reject HIM. The tribulation period is the fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th week and is the final 7 year atonement that began when Cyrus released the JEWS from Babylon to return to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and nation. It is NOT for the church. That is the main reason that the Saints (church) will be raptured and kept from that judgment. GOD does not execute judgment on the righteous (Noah and the Flood, Lot and his family from Sodom, The Jews from Haman, the two spies that Rahab saved). Notice that I am not “slinging” scriptures at you and using extra-Biblical sites to persuade you, just plain ol’ logic and history from GOD’S Word, our ultimate authority. Not that I don’t advocate extra-Biblical sources, because I use them myself–but I always revert to what the scriptures say in the final analysis. So, no matter what we believe when it comes to endtimes events–specifically the rapture of the Saints…I always give this caution from the mouth of our LORD JESUS…”According to your faith, be it unto you”. Try not to be too hard on your brothers and sisters; they mean well. GOD richly Bless You, BuffaloBilly

      • Ron

        MRH just as Billy stated about all of it so is my stand on the Bible.

        To My Brother Billy You said it very well. MRH We have another Brother who usually posts here named “Skywatcher” and he

        is an actual preacher. These are some very wise individuals one can learn alot from.

        God Bless You Billy and MRH!

        • MRH

          Ron: I can learn all I need to know from studying scripture in this controversial matter. I don’t need a preacher nor teacher to explain things their way. I can read just fine, I’m not stupid.. brother 😀

          P.S. I Know Skywatcher, and we have to often agree to disagree on numerous bible topics 🙁

      • MRH

        BuffaloBilly: see my below inserts 🙂

        “Howdy MRH, WOW! You really castigate the people on this strand…really. Actually, there are many on this strand who are very aware of all the organizations that you listed and all their nefarious plans–you are not alone in that boat.” = Sorry but I’m temperamental at times 🙁 Yes I know many know about NWO agendas, but also many don’t know. And such naive folk I call sheeple, because they are being deceived. FYI I too once was a sheeple, until 911 woke me up 😉

        “I think that where you are meeting opposition is proclaiming that the rapture happens at the seventh trumpet. 1 Cor 15:52 is the verse that people build this doctrine on. When I asked you for a second witness, I was looking to see if you had scriptural support for that doctrine other than that one verse…you never supplied any” = Well there are only two seventh trumpet references. However that is the last or final trumpet. Therefore the trumpets of Jesus and Paul must be the same? But the seventh trumpet consists of two soundings, and involves a period of time. This timeline effect is true for all the trumpets, and also the; churches, seals, vials. Now as for the resurrection, yes it is of the dead. However the change aspect involves both living and dead at Christs return, and it all happens in an instant.

        1Co 15:42-45, 49-53 KJV – 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. … 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

        “Matthew 24 is only for the Jews, we don’t need to study the Old Testament because we are under Grace… but also saved from the wrath of GOD, which is the GREAT Tribulation… The tribulation period is the fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th week and is the final 7 year atonement… It is NOT for the church.” = Yes and no brother Billy. For one thing, for the saints there is only ONE; return, resurrection, tribulation. But there are two stages unto each element; first, last. And that’s where confusion enters into the picture. Did you not explore my study link above? It breaks things down. 🙂

        P.S. The ‘day of the Lord’ is the time of Christs coming, and the time of wrath and judgment, and the harvest, which is the end of the world period or segment. However the time of Jacobs trouble precedes things. Also Daniels last week begins with a peace period for many, which ends at the midway point with tribulation [*].

        Dan 9:27 KJV – 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [TRIBULATION], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

  • Howdy MRH, 2 Cor 13:1 tells us that by the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses, every word of GOD is established (paraphrase), can you give all of us a second witness that clearly tells us that the rapture happens on the 7th trumpet judgment of Revelation? Thanks, BuffaloBilly

    • Ron

      How goes it Billy?

      • Howdy Ron, All is fine. I just read your reply/post to MRH. I hope that he, at least, appreciates the time you put in to address his claims. He has yet to answer my request, but I reckon that he will when he gets back on line. I noticed another error in his theology about the judgment of the living and the dead. This is at the end of the tribulation, I believe it is the sheep and goats judgment for all those of humanity who survived the trib and how they treated Israel. Also so, at the end of the Millenial reign, at the Great White Throne Judgment, there will be a judgment for the living (humanity) and all the dead shall be raised for judgment too. There is so much errant teaching going on today. Yesterday I had a man come up to me and talk about a pastor who had passed away not to long ago; he had a website and was teaching that there would not be a rapture and he based this on one verse in the old testament. Too many people try to build doctrine on one verse. That is why I asked MRH for a second witness to his claim. I don’t recall ever seeing a second witness for the rapture to occur at the end of the tribulation and a rapture at that time makes no sense. It does, however, contradict many, many scriptures to the contrary. What I tell those who hold dearly to that concept are the words of JESUS in Matthew…”According to your faith, be it unto you”. At least, I wouls sit up and take notice if another brother of sister offered correction. I can then test the spirits and be a Berean about it before coming to a conclusion. Too many “Christians” are hard-headed about their beliefs and tend to get militant about it. That behavior is not of CHRIST and is a certain red flag for me that I am dealing with an unclean spirit. But…that’s me. Hope that all is well and that the dvds are informative. Blessings My Brother, BuffaloBilly

        • Ron

          Yes like you said in all that you said. I just got done with Thomas’s testimony what a long one and wrote him back. I am going to watch barring any interference ( never that when you have a family is there? LOL! ) starting tomorrow or the next. It is just crazy of late I am doing better how did fishing go?

          The goats and sheep is done right at Christ’s return the sheep enter the millenium the goats the lake of fire.

          The 7th trump is a judgment time and the church does not like Lot and his wife, and Noah and his family do not enter a time of Judgment …….

          they are removed from it. I think what I am going to do at this point is make a text file all about The Rapture so when someone wants to argue it I can copy and paste it.

          God Bless You Billy and Thanks Again!

          • Pete

            Ron claims //The Bride cannot be present in The Tribulation at all for God to be able to dispense His wrath on Godless sinning//

            I am not post-trib because I don’t believe in a coming “great tribulation” at the end of planet earth. But this sentence is incorrect. Of course God can pour out His judgment upon the earth and have it only affect the wicked. He can 100% protect His children from His wrath, supernaturally. After all, the plagues of only affect a certain portion of the earth.

            God protected Israel when He plagued Egypt. Why couldn’t He do that again? God doesn’t have to whisk people off the planet to protect them.

      • MRH

        “The whole Tribulation is God’s Wrath not just the second half.

        The Bride cannot be present in The Tribulation at all for God to be able to dispense His wrath on Godless sinning Earth inhabitants!”

        Ron: The first half of tribulation is unto Israel, the second half is unto the world 😉

        TRIBULATION: PART 1 (Note; Jerusalem, Judaea, vengeance, the land, this people, Gentiles) ISRAEL

        Luk 21:20-24 KJV – 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

        TRIBULATION: PART 2 (Note; sun, moon, earth, nations, sea, Men’s hearts, powers of heaven) WORLD

        Luk 21:25-27 KJV – 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

        P.S. Notice how the target focus changes between the two tribulation passages? Anyway it’s all conjecture for now. Nothing crazy will occur until the temple rises on the mount. Other than that Obama has his sights set on UN SG, which would make him king of the world. 😯

        • MRH, Dude! I thought that I was done until this post came up.

          How can you say that the 1st half of the trib is for Israel and the 2nd half for the world.
          Daniel 9:24 ” Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (JEWS) and upon thy Holy city,(1) to finish the transgression, and (2) to make an end of sins, and(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,(5) and to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and (6) to anoint the most Holy. The trib is called Daniel’s seventieth week for a reason..not his 69 and a half week. The trib is all about the Jews…just billions of gentiles will be caught up in it as well..and even millions of nephilim.
          Please address these 6 points for me–out of the KJV please. Also, it is not necessary for the temple to be built during the Trib or before it–only a tabernacle such as David had. Just a thought. Honestly MRH… when I saw this it was GIGO. I don’t mean to offend you, but this position of yours is way out there. However, I’ll wait for your substantive support. BuffaloBilly

        • Ron

          Will you stop those winks MRH it just comes across as so evil to me like….

          “Hath God said hssssss?”

          Nothing wrong with smily faces, but My Spirit cringes with every wink, UGH!

          Especially when I made a Biblical comment about:

          “The whole Tribulation is God’s Wrath not just the second half.”

          and you respond with this followed by a wink!

          Ron: The first half of tribulation is unto Israel, the second half is unto the world

          Buffalobilly is right about you. I went to your Blog and read some of it, is that the real purpose you are here is

          because no one is going to it so you figure to make some proselytes from here?????

          Because I notice as soon as anyone gives you attention you reply with long diatribes and try to engage them and keep

          it going and then when no one bites you get angry and look for another person on this board.

          I do not know what to think of you, and as Billy said you sound alot like Emery.

          I know you say your name is Mark, but that is what you post. I can put down the name Ron and possibly be someone

          else could I not?

          • MRH

            “Nothing wrong with smily faces, but My Spirit cringes with every wink, UGH!”

            Ron: Sorry, my 😉 holds no ill intent 🙁 Consider 🙂

            A wink is a facial expression made by briefly closing one eye.[1] A wink is an informal mode of non-verbal communication usually signaling shared hidden knowledge or intent.

            The West[edit]
            Winking in Western culture can be used as a way of letting someone else know that the winker or some other person is joking or lying (e.g., a mother tells her child a story about a fairy princess, and she then winks at the child’s older sibling, the sibling thus knows the mother is lying to the younger child). It may also be used to communicate sexual intentions, ranging from flirtation to an explicit invitation.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wink

            “I went to your Blog and read some of it, is that the real purpose you are here is because no one is going to it so you figure to make some proselytes from here????? Because I notice as soon as anyone gives you attention you reply with long diatribes and try to engage them and keep it going and then when no one bites you get angry and look for another person on this board.” = Well I’m just sharing knowledge, as many do here including yourself. But that mean I have agree with what others share? Also I don’t have a blog just web pages, they don’t have inward comment option. Blogs do.

            “I do not know what to think of you, and as Billy said you sound alot like Emery. I know you say your name is Mark, but that is what you post. I can put down the name Ron and possibly be someone else could I not?” = True if you were a liar? And who the heck is Emery? The only Emery I can think of is an SDA whom briefly posted here awhile back, but I don’t recall whether or not I debated with the person. Well my first name is indeed Mark and my last initial is H. But I prefer using MRH nowadays, plus more unique username 😉

            P.S. There is a subtle difference between my 😉 and 🙂 usage. But the emphasis effect is weak here due the new tiny vague emoticons. Also there is no emoticon code chart here, and I only know a few | 😀 🙂 😥 🙁 😉 😡 😯 🙄 💡 Do you know of any others to offer?

    • MRH

      BuffaloBilly: Well I can only state what the bible says unto me regarding rapture and tribulation. As for the 7th trumpet (or last trumpet blast) I believe it begins with the resurrection, which is the ‘mystery of God’ according to Paul. Which according to Jesus occurs at the mid point of tribulation (Matt 24:28). And this is where the confusion lies with both pre and post trib theories. The reality is that the tribulation doesn’t end until the kingdom is gathered unto God (Matt 24:31). Which occurs at the end of the world (wrath, harvest, day of the Lord) period, which is followed by the millennium period. Below is my brief breakdown of things with Matthew 24. 😉

      Mat 24:15 KJV – 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) [The Countdown (begins)]

      Mat 24:21 KJV – 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [Tribulation: Part 1 (begins)]

      Mat 24:27-28 KJV – 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be [Second Coming: Part 1 (invisible for saints)]. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. [Resurrection 1 begins]

      Mat 24:29 KJV – 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Tribulation: Part 2 (begins)]

      Mat 24:30 KJV – 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Second Coming: Part 2 (visible unto world)]

      Mat 24:31 KJV – 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [resurrection 1 ends – gathering together]

      Note: Matt 24:27-31 are the ‘days of the seventh angel’. Matt 24:21-26 are the ‘tribulation of those days’ (from the abomination event)

      Anyway, the rapture and tribulation are complex topics, which can be interpreted many ways, just like end time stuff in general. As it is not cut and dried, prophecy simply isn’t such. Especially Revelation which is literally but a book of bizarre elusive symbols. But even so we saints need not fear, for the Holy Spirit dwells within us. All Satan can do is kill our bodies (flesh), he can’t touch our souls. 😀

      • Howdy MRH, Well, you took a lot of time to write this post so you deserve the same. First, I think that you are confusing resurrection and rapture. The rapture is for the living who are translated (given new bodies) into heaven. This is reserved for the church or body of Believers. Enoch and Elijah are the only other beings to be translated…or raptured by GOD. Resurrection is for the dead. The dead in Christ are not part of the first resurrectiion, but part of the rapture (1 Cor 15:51-52; 1 Thess 4:15-17). They are church-age Saints and will be at the BEMA judgment. The last trump in 1 Cor 15:52 refers to the Feast of Trumpets or Roshashanah. It is also called Yom Teruah. It is the blowing of 100 trumpets; 11 blasts of nine trumpets and then “the last trump”–the 100th blast. It is a 2 day event in the Hebrew month of Tishri and begins on the new moon. The Jews never know on Tishri 1 when the feast of trumpets will begin, but two priests (2 witnesses) will watch for the first sliver of the new moon and then the Feast begins. It is a 2 day feast. This will occur October 3rd of this year. The vast majority of Christians believe that the rapture can occur at any time, but the scriptures say otherwise. Many misapply the words of JESUS when HE says, “No man knoweth the day or the hour..but the Father in heaven only”. This verse applies to the Feast of Trumpets, not the rapture exclusively. GOD is a GOD of patterns (Heb 9:23, Heb 8:5). Notice how precise the building of the ark was when given to Noah; notice how patterned the Holy Temple is when it is built; notice how patterned the Ark of the Covenant is. GOD is not random but has set patterns…even in the way HIS Feasts are to be observed (Lev 23). GOD wants us to be ready for the rapture; that is why he has patterns so that when we study and learn HIS Word, we will know these things. We won’t know the day or the hour, but we can know the times and the seasons. We are told to be making ourselves worthy for this event (Titus 2:12-14; 2 Peter 3:11-14; 1 Thess 5:23). Next, Revelation 20:5 says, “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years (Millenium) were finished. This is the first resurrection”. This is not to be confused with the BEMA judgment which is for the Church age Saints. The first resurrection occurs at the end of the tribulation–it does not begin it. “His elect” are not the Saints since they are already with JESUS; HIS elect are the JEWS who are spread all over the world. Many think that Christians are “HIS elect”, and I used to think that, but I learned that it is the JEWS. It helped to correct some of my theology. In the OLD Testament, the trumpet had two uses; one blast was a call for an assembly. THAT is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31. A second blast was a call to arms. Some eschatologists believe that since we don’t hear the second blast, then the first blast becomes the “LAST TRUMP”. I think that is stretching it some–making one’s interpretation fit one’s eschatology. I agree that the rapture and tribulation can be complex subjects, but I have trouble with the comments that Revelation is a book of bizarre elusive symbols and that end times stuff is not cut and dried. I believe that when one learns to “rightly divide the Word of truth” these issues will become clear. Before I read my Bible, I always pray that the HOLY SPIRIT will teach me, guide me, edify me, give me wisdom, and help me to find my answers that I may fully understand GOD’S Word. HE has answered this prayer repeatedly. He’ll do the same for you if you ask. From reading your post, I do believe that what you said is your own gleaning from the WORD; however, I think that you are trying to make the scriptures conform to your own understanding rather than let your understanding conform to the scriptures. Bible prophecy is all over the Old Testament, especially Daniel. Paul teaches about the rapture in every one of his epistles except Colossians (I think I’m right on that). John 5:39 tells us to search the scriptures. Focus on the word “search”…like looking for lost car keys. That is how we are supposed to read our Bibles..and every night if possible. I am a Berean (Acts 17:11), MRH. I check out everything that I am told before I accept it into my theology. You should do the same…including what I wrote to you. BTW the judgments in Revelation are not linear; some may occur simultaneously.
        I hope that I have helped you as that was my intent. GOD Bless You, My Brother and I pray that you will have a rich and exciting journey through GOD’S Word. I know I have and it is still continuing. BuffaloBilly

        • Pete

          Billy, you are just not being honest. You are now trying to claim that the RAPTURE is something different than what pre-tribbers stake their entire doctrine upon. You say “the rapture is for the living who are translated (given new bodies) into heaven.”

          First of all, this sentence does not even make sense. How is it that people are “given new bodies into heaven”? That’s a non sequitor. It’s not even an English sentence. That’s akin to me saying “Yesterday I got out of bed, and was taken to work in my car by putting on my clothes. (In fact Paul compares the putting on of our new glorified bodies as a putting on of clothing in 2 Cor 5:2 so this comparison is apropos).

          The RAPTURE is defined by pre-tribbers like yourself as the “catching away” into heaven….that is, people who are whisked out of planet earth bodily to escape the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob’s Trouble. This is always taught as happening either AFTER, or DURING, the translation of our bodies from corruptible into incorruptible.

          But that doesn’t make them the same thing.

          Isn’t it far more biblical to say that the resurrection is when we receive our new bodies?

          • Howdy Pete, Sorry, but resurrection is for the dead…not the living. Was JESUS “raptured” from the grave? Was Lazarus “raptured” from the tomb? Aren’t our “new glorified bodies” new bodies? Just what does “sealed unto the day of redemption” mean (Eph 4:30). And…what is being redeemed? Paul says that we “shall all be changed (what is being changed, Pete) in the twinkling of an eye. Yes, we are caught up in Heaven to be with JESUS and we need our new bodies to be able to stand in his presence. You must be smart to use expressions like “apropos” and “non sequitor”, so I have to assume that you know scripture and understand “corruptible and incorruptible”. I really don’t understand what your gripe is other than nitpicking. BTW the sentence that you refer to IS A SENTENCE: it has a subject and a predicate, it is a complete thought and makes sense. Thanks for your kindness, BuffaloBilly

        • Pete

          BB, I believe our mortal bodies will change to immortal at the final resurrection. Those of us in the grave as well as alive. You asked //Was JESUS “raptured” from the grave? Was Lazarus “raptured” from the tomb?// The answer is….NO, not according to the definition that pre-tribbers use for “rapture”. Pre-tribbers claim (quite loudly, in fact) that the rapture is the catching away of the church to heaven prior to the great tribulation. In fact, the purpose of the rapture according to pre-tribbers is to take us out of the world so we avoid the GT.

          The rapture is not the changing of our bodies, is what i am saying. Do you not believe the pre-trib view? Sorry if I was under a mistaken impression.

          Also if you don’t want to answer this because I am confusing something, I will drop it 🙂

          • MRH

            Pete: See below 🙂

            “I am not post-trib because I don’t believe in a coming “great tribulation” at the end of planet earth.

            Have you not read; Daniel 11, Matt 24, Luke 21, etc? 😉

            “Of course God can pour out His judgment upon the earth and have it only affect the wicked. He can 100% protect His children from His wrath, supernaturally. After all, the plagues of only affect a certain portion of the earth.”

            The resurrection is our protection from wrath. 🙂

            “I believe our mortal bodies will change to immortal at the final resurrection. Those of us in the grave as well as alive. The rapture is not the changing of our bodies, is what i am saying.”

            The rapture occurs at the end after judgment. 🙂

          • Pete, What does 1 Cor 15: 51-52 say? If this isn’t the rapture what is. Other scriptures for your discernment are
            1 Thess 5:9; Col 3:6; Ezra 8:22; John 3:36; Romans 1:18 and 5:8. I think that it would be good for your to provide scriptural evidence for the positions that you take. I would sure like to see them. Also, in another of your posts you said that the pre-trib rapture is big business. How? I make no money off of this nor do any of those whom I know who hold this position. Yes, there are those who write books and make dvds about the rapture, but I don’t see that as a big business enterprise…just teaching, enlightening, and edifying the church. I am pre-trib based on what the Bible teaches in scripture and typology. I have furnished scripture to support what I believe. I really would like to be a Berean and test the spirits of your scriptural support. Thanks, BuffaloBilly

      • Pete

        MRH

        //Have you not read; Daniel 11, Matt 24, Luke 21, etc?//

        Yes. I don’t see a Time of Hell at the end of planet earth anywhere in those passages. I see Jesus’ condemnation of apostate Israel, the destruction of the temple and the Jewish sacrificial system (which was filled with abominations) and the end of the old covenant age. This happened roughly around AD70 … right on time, just as Jesus predicted (“this generation shall not pass away”). Daniel 11 may be referring to the time of trouble with Antiochus which was repeated later as part of the judgment on Jerusalem. Either way, it’s in the past.

        Jesus already took on the wrath of God for sin in this world. Anyone who does not accept His atoning blood will face the wrath of God…at the judgment. Not in some 7-year (or 3.5 year) hell on earth. 100% of humanity will stand before God. Not some unlucky “last generation” who somehow has to pay for their sins twice – first with a slap on the wrist for 7 years followed by the lake of fire. This is entirely made up and people cling to it because it helps them feel better about what is happening in the world around us.

        Personally I believe this age we are in lasts forever. Eph 3:21.

        • Ron

          Pete no disrespect intended Pete but one Scripture does not make a Doctrine….

          Personally I believe this age we are in lasts forever. Eph 3:21

          And I know you know but it doesn’t matter what we believe but what God says…

          World without end is true but the Earth we live on won’t be continuous….

          Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

          Now if we try to say that it is new in the sense of being Cleansed it still doesn’t fit because….

          I know you are very smart if God completely destroys the first Heavens and Earth what will be the result?

          2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

          in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and “the elements shall melt with fervent heat”,

          the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

          Seeing then that all “these things shall be dissolved,”

          what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

          Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,

          wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

          Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

          God will destroy it all to create it anew and He is able to do it in a nano, nano, nano, nano, nano…….

          second for HE IS GOD!

          Blessings!

          • Pete

            Ron, it’s hardly “one scripture.”

        • MRH

          Pete: What church do you belong to; JW, etc? Your comment is of preterist essence. Are you a Millennialist?

          “Yes. I don’t see a Time of Hell at the end of planet earth anywhere in those passages.” = True, because those passages only concern tribulation, not the millennium and beyond. However the below passage addresses the latter vision. 😉

          2Pe 3:3-7, 10-13 KJV – 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. … 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

          “I see Jesus’ condemnation of apostate Israel, the destruction of the temple and the Jewish sacrificial system (which was filled with abominations) and the end of the old covenant age.” = The bible relates four earthly temples (tabernacle, Solomon, Cyrus (Herod remodled, (*), one spiritual temple (church), and Gods temple in heaven. 🙂

          *There is a third temple coming soon on the holy mount of which is prophesied in the bible – http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm 🙂

          “This happened roughly around AD70 … right on time, just as Jesus predicted (“this generation shall not pass away”).” = Jesus was speaking prophetically not directly concerning his Jewish audience. The final generation Jesus speaks of is far future from his time reference. Since the second coming event has not yet prevailed? 😉

          “Daniel 11 may be referring to the time of trouble with Antiochus which was repeated later as part of the judgment on Jerusalem. Either way, it’s in the past.” = No, Daniel 11 timeline covers; past, present, future.. depending. 😉

          “Jesus already took on the wrath of God for sin in this world. Anyone who does not accept His atoning blood will face the wrath of God…at the judgment” = True, as wrath abides on the sinner (Gentile) not the saint (Christian). 🙂

          “Not some unlucky “last generation” who somehow has to pay for their sins twice – first with a slap on the wrist for 7 years followed by the lake of fire.” = We are in the final generation, as the evidence is all around us, but the end of the world is yet future. 🙂

          “Personally I believe this age we are in lasts forever. Eph 3:21.” = No, the age of man ends at Christs return, which is when the resurrection of the saints prevails, which occurs before the end of the world segment begins. 😉

          • Pete

            MRH, so much to respond to…arg. NO I am not a JW I actually attend a very fundamentalist, dispensational church and have for 35 years. I am probably more conventional and fundie than you are other than this subject.

            You quote //Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,//

            Why are you quoting this? Surely you are not accusing me, someone you don’t know, of walking after my own lusts! Or of saying things I have never once said.

            //There is a third temple coming soon on the holy mount of which is prophesied in the bible//

            No there isn’t. Jesus only spoke of the destruction of Herod’s temple (the 2nd temple). He never once said a new one would be built and neither did anyone else. This is entirely derived from assumption. Your view starts with the assumption that the temple being discussed in the passages is a future one. That being said, will a new temple be built? Maybe. They can build 100 temples over there and it won’t make one bit of difference.

            //Jesus was speaking prophetically not directly concerning his Jewish audience. The final generation Jesus speaks of is far future from his time reference.//

            This is just wrong, and I won’t argue around and around about it. The plain simple reading is that “this” means this. Just like it does in the other 13 places in the New Testament where Jesus spoke to and about “this generation.”

            //Since the second coming event has not yet prevailed? //

            So….you don’t take Jesus at His word because YOU read difficult passages and can’t figure them out? Jesus said nothing about His second coming nor about His return. He was talking about His coming in judgment upon the temple and Jerusalem, not a bodily return. I can get into it with you offline, I won’t get into it here.

            //True, as wrath abides on the sinner (Gentile) not the saint (Christian).//

            Point is, the wrath that sinners need to avoid is God’s wrath that lands them in the lake of fire. Not some slap on the wrist “great tribulation.” Anyway, if you believe it’s the time of Jacob’s trouble, then why should Gentiles worry?

            //We are in the final generation, as the evidence is all around us//

            I see zero evidence for this, there is no biblical evidence and most of your physical evidence is imaginary, or the same things people have said for 1000s of years. You don’t know jack, sorry.

            //but the end of the world is yet future.//

            The world isn’t going to end. Jesus redeemed it and He will finish the process of full redemption of all creation:

            Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
            Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

            This in no way says that the creation is groaning, waiting for the day that God obliterates it with fire and then just remakes it. He isn’t doing that to our bodies. And He isn’t doing that to the trees, plants, ground, water or stars.

          • MRH

            Pete: See below inserts ([you] me) 🙂

            [MRH, so much to respond to…arg. NO I am not a JW I actually attend a very fundamentalist, dispensational church and have for 35 years. I am probably more conventional and fundie than you are other than this subject.] Sorry, I was just curious, as similar viewpoints with such. I myself don’t belong to any earthly church (all churches deceive), but I explore many of such ‘cults’ to learn their games. 🙂

            You quote //Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,// [Why are you quoting this? Surely you are not accusing me, someone you don’t know, of walking after my own lusts! Or of saying things I have never once said.] The point being that the flood was real (not a metaphor), so shall the future creation destruction by fire be real. Scoffers deny such, as no evidence remains of the flood. 🙁

            //There is a third temple coming soon on the holy mount of which is prophesied in the bible// [No there isn’t. Jesus only spoke of the destruction of Herod’s temple (the 2nd temple). He never once said a new one would be built and neither did anyone else. This is entirely derived from assumption. Your view starts with the assumption that the temple being discussed in the passages is a future one. That being said, will a new temple be built? Maybe. They can build 100 temples over there and it won’t make one bit of difference.] Watch wait and see what transpires 💡

            //Jesus was speaking prophetically not directly concerning his Jewish audience. The final generation Jesus speaks of is far future from his time reference.// [This is just wrong, and I won’t argue around and around about it. The plain simple reading is that “this” means this. Just like it does in the other 13 places in the New Testament where Jesus spoke to and about “this generation.”] Maybe you should examine full passage? 💡

            Luk 21:31-36 KJV – 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

            //Since the second coming event has not yet prevailed? // [So….you don’t take Jesus at His word because YOU read difficult passages and can’t figure them out? Jesus said nothing about His second coming nor about His return. He was talking about His coming in judgment upon the temple and Jerusalem, not a bodily return.] No bodily return aspect you claim? 🙄

            Mat 24:30-31 KJV – 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

            Act 1:9-11 KJV – 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

            //True, as wrath abides on the sinner (Gentile) not the saint (Christian).// [Point is, the wrath that sinners need to avoid is God’s wrath that lands them in the lake of fire. Not some slap on the wrist “great tribulation.” Anyway, if you believe it’s the time of Jacob’s trouble, then why should Gentiles worry?] Do you think they even care? 😉

            //We are in the final generation, as the evidence is all around us// [I see zero evidence for this, there is no biblical evidence and most of your physical evidence is imaginary, or the same things people have said for 1000s of years. You don’t know jack, sorry.] Well I wont argue on things here, as you obviously haven’t a clue unto the NWO and such? WAKE UP! or stay asleep? http://aeroventure.com/Wonderland/Wonderland.htm 😉

            //but the end of the world is yet future.// [The world isn’t going to end. Jesus redeemed it and He will finish the process of full redemption of all creation:] Really now? Can you define the word ‘create’? “to cause to come into existence” 😉

            Isa 65:17 KJV – 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
            Isa 66:22 KJV – 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
            Mat 24:35 KJV – 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
            Heb 1:10-11 KJV – 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
            Rev 21:1, 5 KJV – 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. … 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

            [This in no way says that the creation is groaning, waiting for the day that God obliterates it with fire and then just remakes it. He isn’t doing that to our bodies. And He isn’t doing that to the trees, plants, ground, water or stars.] God created ALL, and can destroy ALL? AMEN? 😀

    • MRH

      BuffaloBilly: Please consider my below study (both parts)? 💡

      http://aeroventure.com/Resurrection&Rapture/Resurrection&Rapture.htm

      Tip: ALL resurrected saints will be at Bema (gathering event) [*] 😀

      Eph 1:10 KJV – 10 That in the dispensation [age] of the fulness of times [end of world] he might gather together in one [unity] all things in Christ [holy ones], both which are in heaven [angels], and which are on earth [saints]; even in him [God]:

      Hint: Saints are not Sinners (*)! *A sinner denies; God, Christ, Satan, bible. A saint accepts all four elements 🙂

      • Howdy again MRH. I agree…Saints are not sinners and if I implied that I didn’t mean for that to happen. I argue with pastors who greet their congregations with”hello sinners” all the time and that is not very scriptural (the greeting)…just plain ignorant. Also, I agree that all resurrected saints and raptured saints will be at the BEMA Seat Judgment. There is only one Bema Judgment so all who are Saints, dead or alive, have to be there to receive their rewards. I think that the “fullness of times” is speaking of the end of the millenium when “all things” have been put under JESUS’S feet. There is a new heaven and a new earth, and we will all inhabit the New Jerusalem. The LORD GOD will dwell with us and then is when we shall be able to see HIM as HE is. Where am I wrong on this…I’m sure Pete will let me know (LOL). Kindly, BuffaloBilly

        • MRH

          BuffaloBilly: See below 🙂

          “Saints are not sinners and if I implied that I didn’t mean for that to happen” = Well technically we are all still sinners as we all still sin being human. So being a SAINT doesn’t exempt us from sin temptation. But SINNERS have no power against sin, as they don’t have the Holy Spirit within them to convict them of sin, and to guide them away. 🙁

          “I think that the “fullness of times” is speaking of the end of the millenium when “all things” have been put under JESUS’S feet” = Well according to scripture, the gathering event precedes the millennium.

          “Paul says that we “shall all be changed (what is being changed, Pete) in the twinkling of an eye.” = Who are ‘all’? Are they not both dead and living saints? After all, the greater majority will be dead saints. Only a handful of saints will be alive at Christs return. But does it matter what state we are in?

          “Yes, we are caught up in Heaven to be with JESUS and we need our new bodies to be able to stand in his presence” = Well scripture states that the kingdom is delivered unto God after judgment day is over, and the resurrection occurs just prior to judgment day.

          Hint: The ‘mark of the beast’ occurs during wrath portion, or second half of tribulation. The beast martyrs are in the latter segment, but the first segment will also include martyrs. So the tribulation saints include both groups.

          Rev 7:14 KJV – 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

          P.S. So whom are the tribulation martyrs? Were there not martyrs in bible times, and throughout later history unto today? Consider the crusades and now Islam? How many saints (past, present) were spared persecution and death? 😉

          • Ron

            MRH Quote:Hint: The ‘mark of the beast’ occurs during wrath portion, or second half of tribulation. The beast martyrs are in the latter segment, but the first segment will also include martyrs. So the tribulation saints include both groups.:End Quote

            The whole Tribulation is God’s Wrath not just the second half.

            The Bride cannot be present in The Tribulation at all for God to be able to dispense His wrath on Godless sinning

            Earth inhabitants!

          • MRH, First of all, you are replying to others who have posted as some of these that you quote here were not in any of my posts. GET IT RIGHT!
            Saints are not sinners…they WERE sinners. Sin does not reign in our bodies (Romans 6). We are cleansed from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (1 John 1:9). “We know that whoever is born of GOD sinneth not; but he that is begotten of GOD keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not” (1 John5:18). There, Bud…3 witnesses that tell me that I am no longer a sinner. Do I have the propensity to sin…yes, as long as I live in this carnal body. Do I have the desire to sin against GOD…NO! Are Saints exempt from the temptation of sin…no, not as long as we live in mortal bodies. Technically, then, according to the Word of GOD…saved people are no longer sinners, unless they choose to sin… then they were not born of GOD. You may continue to be a sinner if you want to…I choose to make myself worthy and not sin against GOD.
            The gathering of the elect and the fullness of times are two completely different issues. What’s your point?
            “All” is the church…those dead in CHRIST and those who are “alive and remain”. You should know this. Christ returns for HIS church before the tribulation, or at least before the GREAT Tribulation. Here are 6 witnesses that you purposely ignore to spread your doctrine based on one scripture: 1 Thess 5:9; Col 3:6; John 3:36; Rom 1:18, 5:8; Ezra 8:22. All these tell us that we are to not see GOD’S wrath…that would be either the tribulation period, or at least the Great Tribulation. Either way, we will not hear or be present when the 7th trumpet sounds.
            2 Tim 4:1–:I charge thee therefore before GOD, and the LORD JESUS CHRIST, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing (2nd coming) and his kingdom (end of millenium). There are two judgments and 2 resurrections after the rapture. One is to judge the living (quick) coming out of tribulation and the wicked dead (dead) also coming out of tribulation..the second coming of JESUS. At the end of the millenial reign, The living who come out of the millenium (quick) will be judged and the wicked dead from all time will be judged (dead). This is the GREAT White Throne Judgment. The angels (fallen and the 200 watchers from the abyss who polluted mankind in Genesis 6) will also be judged…by US!
            Yes, there have been, and still continue to this day, to be martyrs for CHRIST. But Tribulation martyrs are called that because they were alive and sacrificed their lives rather than take the mark during the tribulation. Has it occurred to you, or anyone else for instance, that the 7 seal judgments do not occur in the first half of the tribulation. We know that the first seal, the antichrist is released at the beginning of the tribulation and is present for 7 years of the period. Maybe the red horse, who takes peace from the earth (which can be done in ways other than war) is released much later, followed by the black horse, which I think is released at the time that the mark is required; then the pale horse follows. Quite possible the trumpet judgments are fulfilled in the last 18 months of the tribulation and the bowl judgments in the last 30 days of the trib. Weren’t the plagues of Moses on Eygpt done in 30 days…just a thought. Sorry MRH, but I think that your endtimes theology is lacking. I don’t claim to be an expert, but I have been studying Bible eschatology for over 40 years and I really do know how to read. Don’t be stiff-necked about this, but be a Berean and see if these things be so. BuffaloBilly

    • MRH

      BuffaloBilly: See below 🙂

      “How can you say that the 1st half of the trib is for Israel and the 2nd half for the world.” = Because Daniels week isn’t all tribulation, only the second half. The first half involves peace in Israel. 😉

      Dan 9:27 KJV – 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [TRIBULATION], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [TRIBULATION]

      Dan 12:4, 6, 11 KJV – 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. … 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? … 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. [TRIBULATION]

      “The trib is called Daniel’s seventieth week for a reason..not his 69 and a half week. The trib is all about the Jews…just billions of gentiles will be caught up in it as well..and even millions of nephilim.” = Whoa! All past and present saints are resurrected prior to the end, but many more saints will prevail in the end 😉

      “Please address these 6 points for me–out of the KJV please.” = I would but would be complex task and for what value? Are you going to send me money for my hard won research efforts? Somehow I thought mot 🙁

      “Also, it is not necessary for the temple to be built during the Trib or before it–only a tabernacle such as David had. Just a thought.” = Nope! Temple plans are underway. – http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

      Honestly MRH… when I saw this it was GIGO. I don’t mean to offend you, but this position of yours is way out there. However, I’ll wait for your substantive support. BuffaloBilly” Yeah I’m way out there brother Billy 😯 That’s because I research the bible and web NOT follow the crowd 😉

  • Dan

    I found this article very interesting. Its predictions of a Trump presidency are encouraging, to say the least

    http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/67748/biblical-numerology-predicts-trump-will-usher-messiah/#uPQIHvsO6vlf5YUJ.97

  • CHAR

    Buffalo Billy, LOVED your “lesson” on the Rapture sequence. You must make a good bible study teacher in your church. Would love to come to your classes if you have any.lol Keep up the good work on “teaching”!

    • Pete

      Char,

      Maybe you can explain, since you LOVED Billy’s “lesson”, how someone can be taken to heaven via the act of being given a new body.

      Pete

      • Come on Pete? We are taken to heaven and given a new body, a glorified one (there…happy?) at the time. You know what I mean so I was right the first time I responded to your post…you nitpick. Surely you have better “Gifts” from GOD than to waste your time trying to degrade your fellow brothers and sisters. Is this a spirit of being “holier than thou” that I sense in YOU?
        Examine yourself (2 Cor 13:5)!!! Cut Char some slack…just because you carp on me does not give you a reason to carp on another who happens to agree with me. The words of Alexander Pope come to mind when I reflect on the “quality” of your posts; “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing; Drink DEEP…or touch not the pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again. APROPOS????? “Drink largely” my friend and then join us in civil discourse. BuffaloBilly

        • DC

          I agree with Char in that I’ve enjoyed reading your lesson(s). I knew what you meant about our raptured bodies. Some people enjoy finding fault and you can’t convince them they aren’t all-knowing, so shake off the dust, my friend. Your eschatology is valid & you don’t need to defend it.

          • Howdy DC, Thanks for the support. I try to be very clear when I email others and post on this site, but I may fail at times. I thought that I was clear with the one to MRH…he had no problem with clarity, but “pistol” Pete sue did. I guess that people see what they want to see and the critical spirit that they house helps them to do this. I’m not mad at him or anyone else, and I won’t apologize for my theology or change it until someone comes along and can rationally and scripturally show me my errors. I don’t have a handle on all the scriptures, but I definitely know how to read and interpret most of what I read in the scriptures. Thanks again my Sister, You are a blessing…BuffaloBilly

          • Ron

            You DC, Billy, Heather, Larry, Skywatcher, Leigh, Edwitness, Geoffrey Grider, CHAR, and a whole host of others are

            Very Big Blessings to me on NTEB.

            God Bless You All!

        • MRH

          “We are taken to heaven and given a new body, a glorified one (there…happy?) at the time”

          BuffaloBilly: Can you fly in your present body? If you can’t, then how can you expect to flit to heaven? Also what about breathing, could you breath in outer space? And what about temperature, could you survive absolute zero cold? Or bear the open deadly extreme radiation from the sun? Yeah I think ‘change’ must precede ‘travel’ beyond the globe 😉

          • MRH, I think that you are twisting what I have said and putting forth ideas that are not mine. You either know what I am talking about or playing the fool. I gave you some credit in earlier posts, but I think that I may have been mistaken. Nothing was said about flying, flitting through heaven, or surviving in absolute zero, or bear extreme radiation. You need to get a grip, brother…look who is being dishonest now (what you accused me of in your first post). Are you sure that your name is not Emery? BuffaloBilly

        • MRH

          “MRH, I think that you are twisting what I have said and putting forth ideas that are not mine… Nothing was said about flying, flitting through heaven, or surviving in absolute zero, or bear extreme radiation… Are you sure that your name is not Emery? BuffaloBilly”

          BuffaloBilly: My point being that we can’t ascend into heaven in our earthly form, we would die once we left the planet (even before). No living being can survive in outer space without protection.. i.e. space suit. When Jesus ascended, he was in his resurrected form. Also he didn’t immediately depart at his resurrection. Rather the ascension prevailed 40 days later, preceded by exposing himself unto over 500 saints, last including Paul.

          Act 1:1-4 KJV – 1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

          1Co 15:1-9 KJV – 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

          So are we on the same level yet regarding Resurrection & Rapture? Of course our resurrection will not match Jesus’, as after all both his body and mind were pure? Whereas both elements are impure with us saints? The only pure element is our spirit, which blossoms in our resurrection. And of course our earthly bodies die then, as we depart from them. Like a permanent and real out of body experience. And the body can’t live without the spirit to drive it? Later on after holy task on earth complete (judgment of world and demons), we depart the planet unto heaven (for millennium). Amen? 😀

          P.S. No, I’m not Emery, whomever he is? MRH is my initials 🙂

        • Pete

          BuffaloBilly, I apologize, I might have misunderstood your point. A lot of pre-tribbers claim that the rapture is the “mystery” revealed to Paul in 1 Cor 15:

          1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
          1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

          This is not a “rapture”. This is a change from mortal to immortal, and a resurrection of the dead.

          • Howdy Pete, I Cor 15:52 IS a rapture…or snatching away. I agree that the body has to change from mortal to immortal, from corruption to incorruption, etc. We cannot stand before JESUS in a corrupt body so we get our glorified bodies “in the twinkling of an eye”. 1 Thess 4:13-18 says the same thing and adds “and so shall we ever with THE LORD”. This is an instantaneous process. How else can we accept the verse “to be absent from the body is to be present with THE LORD”. This also is instantaneous. The change from mortal to immortal is the same as the rapture…it is an instantaneous and simultaneous event for the church. I highly recommend that everyone should be familiar with a JEWISH courtship and wedding. This gives an excellent picture of the church and its relationship with JESUS. It can correct a lot of misconceptions and misinterpretations of the scriptures that surround this phenomenon. Blessings, BuffaloBilly

        • Pete

          BB

          //We are taken to heaven,//

          This isn’t in the text.

          Pete

          • It’s implied. C’mon Pete, cut me some slack now. BuffaloBilly

    • Ron

      Amen CHAR!

      God Bless You!

  • Laura L

    To all those preppers who think they can hide in their bunkers and somehow think that this will offer protection from our Lord and Savior when He returns, I ask the same question He asked the scribes and Pharisees of His day: “How can ye escape the damnation of hell?” Matthew 23:33(KJV) No bunker will save you from hell. Only Jesus can offer you salvation.

    • Ron

      Not to mention The Earthquake that level every mountain flat their bunkers will be their own tombs!

      God Bless Laura!

      • Pete

        Ron does that include the Mt of Olives?

        • Ron

          Pete I hope you are not trying to play nitpick, I really do.

          Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

          this was a mount not really a mountain in the true sense it is only 2,582 feet above sea level and I would suspect

          that as gradual as the slope is on it it will still be there. I think The Lord may be referring to all the craggy

          and rocky mountains. But does this really matter? What you ask is almost akin to me asking you since 1/3 of the

          trees will be burnt up, “Pete will my Apple tree in my yard be burnt up?” Besides when Christ returns it must still

          be there because of……

          Zechariah 14:1-4 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

          So it obviously will be unaffected by this Earthquake or will be greatly diminished in height and The Lord will

          perform the above. Look Pete there is no doubt you are a very, very smart man. But if it is only earthly what good

          is it. So I hope you are not trying to cause division, mocking, making fun of or whatever. God gave you a good

          mind and it was meant to be used For His Glory, not yours. Have a Nice Day, Blessings Pete I mean it.

          Many people do not realize that taking up evil ways against their fellow man is such a Spiritual Drain on them,

          where as being good, kind, and abiding by God’s Grace in Jesus Christ is a Drink of Spiritual Water that Blesses us.

          Only Satan causes false doctrines, hatred and strife among every person on this planet in hopes of destroying their

          souls.

          • Pete

            Hi Ron, just trying to make a point. The scripture says “every” mountain. So the entire earth will be flat, right? Is that really the best way to read these scriptures? In a wooden literal sense? God is literally going to flatten every physical mountain? I don’t think so. It’s apocalyptic text. In the Old Testament, this type of writing is used quite often in a symbolic way. For some reason nobody ever considers it in the wooden literal sense. You said “But does this really matter?” YES, it matters how people interpret these things because the point is entirely missed if we do it wrong.

            I am not a smart guy, very average, but what I do try to do is forget what I was taught and dig into these things myself as a Berean, and only read what the Bible actually SAYS. In your view of things there is a LOT that is simply added in, or assumed. And a lot that is interpreted using 21st century ideas and idioms. Instead you should be reading the rest of the Bible to determine what these things mean. I challenge you to go read Psalm 18. Right now. Read the preamble about what the Psalm is about. Then read the words of the Psalm. You tell me if that is supposed to be taken “literally.” You should also read Judges 4 and 5. Read the narrative of what happened in chapter 4, then read the song of praise in chapter 5. You tell me: is what actually happened in chapter 4, what they sing in chapter 5? Or is it symbolic?

            This isn’t me trying to be evil, or cause division. This is trying to understand the Word. I get testy at times when people act like jerks. (Yep, I act like jerk right back at them. Or maybe I act like a jerk first, and then people rightly give me my own medicine.) Don’t forget, Ron, Martin Luther caused “division.” There isn’t a thing wrong with questioning each others interpretations. Contrary to what arrogant pre-tribbers think, there are a LOT of other ways to look at this stuff. It seems that pre-tribbers have had too many decades of pastors coming out of DTS and Moody repeating the same stuff over and over and nobody questioning it.

            One main issue is that pre-tribbers (when it fits their story) HATE symbolism and metaphor. I don’t get that. Where did you get the idea that metaphor and symbolism in scripture is somehow less true than non-symbolism?

          • Ron

            Pete why didn’t leave a reply option?

            Well anyhow

            Just because it is apocalyptic text that God does not mean what He says. After all the Earthquake happens before

            Jesus Christ sets foot on Earth, 1. We know Jesus Christ does not need GPS to locate His Flattened mount of Olives.

            2.And if it was all flattened which God says it is, since it was His Holy Mountain before who says He cannot

            reraise it at that moment while splitting at the same time. And to me there is nothing hard about the

            things that happen in Revelation, why would God give us Allegories here, he did not. Just like He called parables

            parables before He said them in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. he didn’t tell us as you said:

            Pete Quote:Is that really the best way to read these scriptures? In a wooden literal sense? God is literally going to flatten every physical mountain? I don’t think so. It’s apocalyptic text. In the Old Testament, this type of writing is used quite often in a symbolic way. For some reason nobody ever considers it in the wooden literal sense. You said “But does this really matter?” YES, it matters how people interpret these things because the point is entirely missed if we do it wrong.:End Quote

            When God says something is an Allegory he said it before He commented on it….

            Galatians 4:22-26 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

            God’s Word is to be taken Literally unless He Says otherwise.

            It doesn’t matter what you believe, I believe or anyone else believes because

            if they don’t believe God then they will wind up in Hell most likely.

            Revelation used to scare me to death until I got saved, even before that time I said Lord please don’t make me

            have to go thru that! Well He saved me I am no longer afraid. But Revelation has some things in it that point to

            the exact time we are in now and anyone who cannot see that is Spiritually Blinded.

            The mark of the beast to buy and sell and now they are pushing RFID, The WHOLE WORLD WILL see God’s

            2 witnesses and see them die in the Streets of Jerusalem and then ascend up to Heaven ( Not without Satellite TV)

            We are headed toward a One World Government The 10 Nations mentioned in Revelation are at The UN’s and EU’s

            official websites. The One world religion the push to say we all worship the same God. And the executions for

            not getting the Mark Beheading imagine that one if we have alot now boy will they have millions of those then.

            Remember God’s Words

            Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

            I would rather err on the probability that it will happen, instead of acting like it won’t and have it overtake

            me that is wisdom. I know this is a little off subject ( since you Blah, Blah, Blah me last time! LOL! ) When I

            first got on a Submarine my first underway watch was as a Planesmen this is where there is 2 control sticks like

            an airplane has and when you have to pull back on them, even with a centering spring it was Heavy and your arms

            would be worn out at the end of the 6 hour watch. We had a diving officer who sat behind us that trimmed and

            ballasted the sub. A big No No is if you go to periscope depth is to allow the sub to broach and I saw how the

            Captains laid into and even disqualified some for doing such Well I learned to hate a down angle for trim! So

            When I became Diving Officer I wasn’t just going to look on at those of the past and broach, no way I was too

            afraid of any Captain in this respect and I also did not want to visit on my planesmen the same thing I hated a

            down bubble (nose down) so I always weighted the rear down ( once your screw is out of the water you are

            screwed and you cannot control your depth and the Captain will be there in a nanosecond screaming) and trimmed it

            such that we had up bubble (nose riding up) this way all the planesmen had to do was push on the stick way

            easier. I never broached once because Jesus Christ was my Pilot! Before I got saved I was a Richard ( shortened version ) if you know what I mean. But when the watchbills

            were being made up all the Planesmen went to the COB and said can I be in Chief Ron’s section? To show you how

            much I changed after that this is part of my personal testimony……….

            I stood watch as Diving Officer under way, and one of the Seamen who stood helms/planes watch could not get over how much I had changed. This Seamen would say to me on watch; “Chief I cannot get over how much you have changed!” I would always reply; “If you think I had anything to do with it, or did it in my own power you are crazy.” He would then reply; “Here comes that Jesus thing again!” I would say; “That’s right!” My prayer for him is he will keep remembering that Jesus thing, as he likes to say.

            He was sort of a fool but he would say that just about every watch. My point about all of this is I am very much

            concerned for you Pete! Am I full of faults?, you bet I am! Am I perfect I most definitely am not. But This I

            know beyond a shadow of a doubt is that if one thinks they will enter into Heaven on their own merits they will

            only finds themselves tossed into Hell. Pete do you consider yourself a wise man or a fool, now I am asking you I

            am not calling you that. Because God says there is only 2 types of people “Wise and Foolish” no gray areas just

            like Salvation you are either saved or you aren’t. If someone came up to you and said If you give me just a penny

            I will give you a million dollars 20 years from now. You would be skeptical right I would but for only that

            little investment I wouldn’t risk not getting such a big return heck we all find pennies on the ground many times

            God has Said Only Fools will be in Hell and The Wise will be in Heaven…

            Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

            Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

            If we are only trusting in ourselves we are fools and fooling ourselves.

            Would you rather I would be unconcerned about you? I know I get mad at times and it is because of Satan and his

            horde who pump peoples minds with crap. This is how you can tell if it is from Satan and his horde is when you

            think about what I posted to you do this; change the subject in your mind completely different from what you were

            reading from me, maybe even hours later. If thoughts are there that tell you you don’t need to listen to him or

            something that turns you away from what I wrote then it is an external thought being put in your head.

            It doesn’t mean you are possessed or anything of that sort. It does mean the they already know where you stand

            and they want to convince you that you don’t need it.

            But one last thing, when you say those you do about scripture such as you do like

            “It’s apocalyptic text” it sets off red flags for me and here is why because if one is truly saved they will

            understand it.

            God said it: 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the “natural man” receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are “spiritually discerned.”

            and commbined with it…

            2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture “is of any private interpretation.” For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: “but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

            So it makes it perfectly clear That just as The Holy was needed to write it is also needed to interpret it.

            It is Just Like a Real Love Letter because that is what it is to His Bride, and just like if you or I picked up

            a love letter a person wrote to another we would not understand any of the innuendos, coy names or words

            because it wasn’t written to us. Pete Please don’t let your pride get in the way, or stubborness or whatever

            1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

            You can do this without telling anyone, I don’t have my own personal blog to draw you away, no one will know.

            But the last minutes counter is going a million miles an hour right now and you may find yourself stuck here when

            you could have gone, will you still at that point say I will believe in God my way?

            Pete I only say what I have only in love and the fact that others can read it shouldn’t matter to you.

            I meant what I said so you would make sure that you are eternally secure and I know you know what to do.

            Satan is a liar and he hates you and will tell you nothing but lies, and I would hate to see you fall to …

            2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

            Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

            Proverbs 27:9 Ointment and perfume rejoice the heart: so doth the sweetness of a man’s friend by hearty counsel.

            That is all Pete Blessings!

          • Pete

            Ron

            //Just because it is apocalyptic text that God does not mean what He says.//

            Hmmm…I agree. So when did I ever say otherwise?

            // When God says something is an Allegory he said it before He commented on it….//

            Actually….no, usually He doesn’t. And this is not a good way to read ANY book, much less the Bible. This is just a rule you have made, as a place to start from and it isn’t spelled out in scripture. So it’s just that: a man’s rule. We all have them. But they could be wrong, too.

            There are 100s of metaphors, allegories, symbols etc. in the Bible that are not identified as such. Jesus is the door. Jesus is the good shepherd. Jesus is the bread from heaven. The communion loaf is the body of Christ. He is the cornerstone that people stumble over. And on and on..

            // God’s Word is to be taken Literally unless He Says otherwise.//

            No, God’s Word is to be taken Literally ALWAYS. Taking the Bible literally means allowing it to define itself. It means understanding the original audience and the surrounding context. It means when you read words and concepts that are difficult, we go and look them up in the BIBLE to see what they mean. We don’t try to figure them out using our modern idioms and 21st century Western minds.

            And again, you seem to think metaphor and allegory and symbolism are somehow less true or less powerful than physical stuff. One of the biggest charges leveled against guys like me is “you are spiritualizing the text.” Let me try to change your mind on that.

            YES. I do sometimes spiritualize text. Guess what? So does Jesus. So does Paul. So does Peter. In fact, you and I are saved because we hold fast to very important truths that are symbolic. Do you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins? Why? Because God said that Jesus was the sinless Lamb and that He was sacrificed as such. But Jesus isn’t a lamb, and He wasn’t sacrificed in the literal Jewish sense. He did not die on a Jewish altar, slain by a high priest and His blood was not sprinkled on a literal mercy seat. Yet you and I are counting on not going to our doom because we believe His work was what was necessary.

            And here’s the really interesting part: God says that the things Jesus did as a non-literal lamb are the REAL things. The actual animals were the type and shadow. You see, God doesn’t view spiritual things as being less REAL than physical things. In this case, the spiritual is MORE real.

            Given in the spirit of love to you, hope this helps.

            Pete

  • CHAR

    Buffalo Billy, DC, Ron, Skywatcher,Geoffrey and others who are on the same page as far as Buffalo Billy teaching as best he can and accurately to those who “just can’t get it”. This is from a very good bible study teacher named Les Feldick who has a daily show (Through the Bible with Les Feldick) which I have learned a whole lot from and this is what he says from I Corinthians 15.

    Now trump here is singular and I’ve started to emphasize that because I’ve had several that have tried to drum the trumpets of Revelation down my throat as being the call of the Church. Well there’s no correlation or anything that even comes close to fitting this trumpet of God that Paul speaks of and the trumpets in Revelation. Number one, this is the trumpet of God, it’s singular. Revelation has seven trumpets that are given to seven angels, not to announce His coming and the resurrection, but rather they’re to announce plagues, and the wrath of God. So I can’t see any correlation whatsoever. This is the trumpet of God and it shall sound.

    God bless all you fellow believers!

    • Thanks CHar, That is an excellent witness from an impartial source. Blessings, BuffaloBilly

  • Howdy Ron, Thanks, bro. It is a pleasure to serve you. This is how the members of the church are supposed to behave and edify one another. Maybe others will learn. BuffaloBilly

    • Ron

      Thank You Billy and let us pray they will do as you say!

      God Bless You Billy!

    • MRH

      BuffaloBilly: I see many speculations below but with no proof to substantiate things 🙄

      “MRH, First of all, you are replying to others who have posted as some of these that you quote here were not in any of my posts. GET IT RIGHT!” = I read everything and respond accordingly, but not always on the corresponding post, because of Reply stacking limits 🙁

      “Saints are not sinners…they WERE sinners. Sin does not reign in our bodies (Romans 6). We are cleansed from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (1 John 1:9).
      Technically, then, according to the Word of GOD…saved people are no longer sinners, unless they choose to sin… then they were not born of GOD.” = Uhmm.. salvation is NOT conditional, rewards are (many scriptures) 😉

      “The gathering of the elect and the fullness of times are two completely different issues. What’s your point?” = The ‘fullness of times’ concerns the completion of the church (many scriptures) 😉

      “Christ returns for HIS church before the tribulation, or at least before the GREAT Tribulation. Either way, we will not hear or be present when the 7th trumpet sounds.” = Uhmm.. the 7th trumpet is the resurrection (Rev 10:7 & 11:15). The resurrection ends mans reign 😀

      “There are two judgments and 2 resurrections after the rapture. One is to judge the living (quick) coming out of tribulation and the wicked dead (dead) also coming out of tribulation..the second coming of JESUS.” = Well the thing is, when Christ returns we are instantly glorified. 😀

      Col 3:4 KJV – 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
      1Pe 5:4 KJV – 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
      1Jo 3:2 KJV – 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

      Tip: So as clearly stated above, we are glorified while here on earth (alive or dead), not glorified up in heaven at rapture 🙂

      “At the end of the millenial reign, The living who come out of the millenium (quick) will be judged and the wicked dead from all time will be judged (dead). This is the GREAT White Throne Judgment. The angels (fallen and the 200 watchers from the abyss who polluted mankind in Genesis 6) will also be judged…by US!” = Uhmm.. the resurrection signals the end of humanity (flesh and blood). All those in the millennium will be alive (awake) in resurrected form (like the angels). Remember that the heathen are still dead (asleep), and so the GWT only concerns the heathen. 😉

      “Yes, there have been, and still continue to this day, to be martyrs for CHRIST. But Tribulation martyrs are called that because they were alive and sacrificed their lives rather than take the mark during the tribulation.” = What do you think the ‘mark’ is? 💡

      “Has it occurred to you, or anyone else for instance, that the 7 seal judgments do not occur in the first half of the tribulation. We know that the first seal, the antichrist is released at the beginning of the tribulation and is present for 7 years of the period. Maybe the red horse, who takes peace from the earth (which can be done in ways other than war) is released much later, followed by the black horse, which I think is released at the time that the mark is required; then the pale horse follows. Quite possible the trumpet judgments are fulfilled in the last 18 months of the tribulation and the bowl judgments in the last 30 days of the trib. Weren’t the plagues of Moses on Eygpt done in 30 days…just a thought.” = Uhmm.. speculations without proof serves little value. The fact is, the bible simply doesn’t detail apocalyptic wonders. 😥

      “Sorry MRH, but I think that your endtimes theology is lacking. I don’t claim to be an expert, but I have been studying Bible eschatology for over 40 years and I really do know how to read. Don’t be stiff-necked about this, but be a Berean and see if these things be so. BuffaloBilly” = One thing I’ll say on this comment, and that is that biblical debates can be debilitating 😡

  • MRH, This will be my last post to you and I will explain. First I think that you are sincere about what you believe; but I think that you are sincerely wrong as you really don’t give scriptural evidence…just interpretation for them. I was about to look at the sites you sent me until I came across your missive to Pete where you told him that the tribulation is divided into two parts: one for the Jews (1st half) and one for the gentiles (2nd half). At that point I wrote and asked you for your evidence and what you supplied was nothing more than mistranslations of scripture. You continue to do this with your responses to me and You don’t seem to be a Berean for the ones that I give you. Also, you reply to things that are not in my posts. Hard to comment on what I don’t say. I don’t send you speculations…I send you scriptures. I don’t think that you understand them. If you have come to these conclusions of yours about the rapture, tribulation, and other endtimes phenomena, then you have a lot of work to do because it is really messed up..and I am not trying to be mean or offensive with that statement. If you are under the teachings of a pastor who doles out that mularky, then you need to get out from under him because he is teaching His doctrine and scripture says that scripture is not for private interpretation. I honestly don’t want to embarrass you on a public forum and I am afraid that is where we are headed. If you insist on holding onto…or clutching to, which seems more appropriate…to what you believe, then so be it. I will leave you with the words of the SAVIOR…”According to your faith, be it unto you”. Kindly, BuffaloBilly

  • Howdy Pete, Pardon me for eavesdropping, but I had to add two cents. First of all, I think that your response to Ron was well-spoken and pretty much on target. If by allegory, you and Ron mean the parables, then I have to agree with both of you.: Jesus sometimes just spoke the parable and often added “if a man has ears to hear, let him hear”. Other times HE spoke the parable then gave the interpretation. Pete, you mentioned about the metaphor that JESUS was not an actual lamb…true dat! HE was not sacrificed on a Jewish altar by Jewish priests. etc. Actually, as I read that I realized that HE WAS sacrificed because HE said that I lay down my life willingly, no man taketh it from me (paraphrase). Also, JESUS IS our High Priest after the order of Melchizadek (I’m too lazy to get my Bible and make sure of the spelling) so HE was, in essence, sacrificed by a Jewish High Priest since HE laid down HIS own life willingly…cool, huh. Pete, Ron is a good guy and we have traded posts often. I also think that you are a good guy and well-meaning, especially based on your post to Ron. What we all have to remember is that none of us has a 100% grip on prophecy and endtimes events…we learn from each other as I do when I read these posts. Often when I read a post and especially one that offers correction, I try to see the heart and spirit behind the message. It helps to locate a person’s motivation behind the post. I really think that the majority of people on this site are well-meaning, even when they offer correction. It is just difficult for some of us, and me included, to take correction on something that totally disturbs our theology and what we believe. Also, bear in mind that what we mean to say is not what ends up in the post. I am very guilty of that and always seem to catch those types of statements when I proofread ALL my posts. GOD richly Bless You Both My Brothers, BuffaloBilly

    • Pete

      BuffaloBilly, thank you for your kind remarks, yes it is great to have one another to learn from…I hang out on message boards with people with whom I disagree, 99% of the time, it helps with the iron sharpening thing. It can be a challenge to keep the flesh in check though, I fail at it constantly with my immaturity. But God is merciful. Hopefully we can help each other grow…thanks!

  • dan

    Hello Ron, Pete, BB, nice to see such a lively debate between brothers in Christ.

    I have a question and I would like your input. Matthew 19:8 shows us that for generations the Jews believed that

    GOD allowed for a man to divorce his wife because Moses was teaching this. However, we learn from Jesus that GOD

    never did say that. So, after knowing this how can anyone say for sure that everything in the bible is the

    literal word of GOD?

    Blessings

    • Ron

      But Jesus gave an exception for divorce, and that is Adultery.

      We don’t stone Adulterers these days right?

      But the innocent spouse was free to marry again after the other spouse was stoned to death right?

      If Adultery is committed now a days, and this is why Jesus gave us this exception on divorce, we longer stone them>

      but the marriage has been killed in a manner of speaking that a person who divorces an Adulterer these days

      is innocent and therefor free to remarry. It doesn’t necessarily mean you have to get a divorce, buy more power to you

      and maybe even a greater blessing if you are able to reconcile.

      God Bless You Dan.

      • Dan

        Ron, I was making a point about the bible being the inspired word of GOD rather than the literal word of GOD.

        Good to hear from you, brother!

        GOD Bless

        • Howdy Dan, Pardon me for eavesdropping. Had I seen this post earlier, I would have included my 2 cents in my previous post to you.. The Bible IS the inspired Word of God and IS to be read literally. The Bible will interpret itself if we let it. I think that is part of “rightly dividing the Word of truth. Blessings again, BuffaloBilly

          • Ron

            Billy at first I couldn’t get the dvd’s to load on my laptop no matter what I did and then I tried me blueray panasonic and it worked I just watched a several minutes oof it ( want to save it so my son can see it)

            Fire in The Sky, all I can is wow how awesome for just that brief portion This man knows what he is talking about.

            If you don’t see me on line for a bit I am watching these videos1

            Thanks Again and God Bless You!

    • Howdy Dan, First of all, your translation is incomplete. (1) Moses allowed the divorce because of the “hardness of their (Jews) hearts”; (20) Moses allowed for the divorce, not GOD; (3) Jesus is not contradicting GOD (Himself) because that would be impossible; HE is correcting the scriptures and practices of the JEWS by saying that GOD never sanctioned divorce (paraphrase); (4) JESUS goes on to add that divorce is only sanctioned if the mate commits adultery…no other reason; (5) We trust that the Bible is totally true and accurate in every sense by FAITH! and the fact that GOD says that HE cannot lie (Titus and Hebrews). Man requires signs and assurance…it’s part of our nature; GOD says come to me in faith and believe (without proof), and I will give you proof (and HE does). Recall the scripture that says “Whatever is not of faith, is sin”; This is unbelief in action and what causes people to thwart GOD’S interactions in their lives. A companion verse is also, “Without faith, it is impossible to please GOD”; Faith and belief go hand-in-hand. People who have little or no faith doubt GOD and often HIS existence. I can’t recall which Gospel this is in, but JESUS is unable to do miracles in a certain place because of the unbelief of the people…unbelief (lack of faith) handicaps the work of GOD in one’s life. If you want GOD’s participation in your life, then follow Hebrews 11:6…”But without faith it is impossible to please HIM; for he that cometh to GOD must believe that HE is, and that HE is a rewarder of them that diligently seek HIM”. Hebrews 11 is called the “Faith” chapter; it is a good study. Hope this helps, Dan. Blessings, BuffaloBilly

      • Dan

        Hi Bill , you have agreed with my point I think.(1) Moses allowed the divorce because of the “hardness of their (Jews) hearts”; (20) Moses allowed for the divorce, not GOD; (3) Jesus is not contradicting GOD (Himself) because that would be impossible; HE is correcting the scriptures and practices of the JEWS by saying that GOD never sanctioned divorce.

        My point is this is only one example of our prophets getting it wrong. Surely Moses believed he was doing the right

        thing but what happened and how many generations went on with Jews believing the inspiration was from GOD? That is my

        point. It is obviously ok for us to try and get it right but even Moses who is one of GOD’s prophets got it wrong.

        How many generations followed the teaching of no work on the sabbath ? Jesus had to correct the teaching by

        assuring us that it was ok to do good works on the sabbath.

        My point is the bible cannot be the literal word of GOD because in some cases the teaching has been wrong.

        Don’t misunderstand I believe the bible is a blessing and a light to the world. But it has also been used

        for division which I worry was not GOD’s intention. However, I do believe it was GOD’s intention to let us

        choose how to use this bible. Unfortunately, we have not been good stewards of what GOD has given us.

        • Howdy Dan, It sounds like you are finding fault in the interpretations that people make and I am okay with that because it does happen. Remember that Moses was a man and even GOD would not allow him to enter the promised land because he disobeyed a command that had prophetic meaning. Moses was a mere mortal…thus, not perfect. Also, recall that JESUS castigated the Jewish priests, pharisees, saduccees because they followed the doctrine of men and preached that same doctrine rather than to listen to the prophets. The biggest problems in the world of Christianity have been, in my opinion, the introduction and adherence to doctrine of men rather than GOD’S Word and disobedience. You are correct in saying that the Bible is used as a divisive tool…but that is the work of satan and not GOD. Christianity’s major issue besides the doctrine of men is that they, and the Jews as well, have no fear of the LORD. Think on that as you witness the countless fallen pastors chasing after wealth and scattering their flocks, thus compromising their credibility and testimony. As Believers, we must have a fear of GOD or else (Matt 10:28). We must also guard our testimonies as that is what we use to witness to unbelievers in an effort to save their souls. In the final analysis, GOD will judge all of us on our works after we are saved and what we did with HIS Word (JESUS and the Bible.. that is “thus sayeth BuffaloBilly, not thus sayeth THE LORD). I try not to get caught up in all the controversies because there will always be controversies. I try to be obedient to GOD (Eccles 12:13…good verse) and build a strong testimony, and see to it that I know HIS Word as best I can. For all of us in the Faith, we should be like the children of Issachar (1 Chron 13:32) and good Bereans with the word (Acts 17:11). Paul told us to examine ourselves and to work out our salvation daily. That’s what we are to do. GOD will take care of the rest if we STAND FIRM, after having done all. Blessings my Brother, BuffaloBilly

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