Our Top 5 Reasons Why Matthew 24 Cannot Be Talking About The Rapture Of The Church

Our last reason why Matthew 24 cannot be talking about the Rapture of the Church is as equally compelling as the previous 4 reasons.
top-5-reasons-why-matthew-25-is-not-about-rapture-church

Jesus starts the chapter off by saying that the Temple will be torn down to the ground and destroyed. And then rebuilt again.

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?Matthew 24:3 (KJV)

In the 24th chapter of Matthew, the apostles come together to ask Jesus about His return, which we know to be the Day of the Lord, and the end of the world. Jesus, as it turns out, has plenty to say on this subject and uses no parables. He tells them plainly what will happen in the time of the end. Many Christians, who love to apply the entire New Testament to the Church alone, read this chapter and try to make this about the Rapture of the Church. But that will not work, Matthew 24 is not about the Church which didn’t even exist on the day that they asked Jesus these questions.

Matthew 23 ends with Jesus talking about His Second Coming, and Matthew 24 continues this exact same theme so we have harmony with the context. In our earlier article on the Rapture of the Church, we explained the difference between the Rapture and the Revelation. If you have not yet read that article, please do so before proceeding with this teaching on Matthew 24.

“For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Matthew 23:39 (KJV)

Jesus has something very important for the apostles to understand, and He begins to speak prophetically. He is giving a prophecy, not of the time in which they were living (though you can draw some parallels), but of a time far into the future. The time of Jacob’s Trouble that Jeremiah spoke about:

“Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

Jacob’s name was changed to Israel, as in the nation of Israel. Jacob’s trouble has no application to the Church which would be formed later in Acts 2. Jacob’s trouble is about the Jewish people and the nation of Israel as they go through the time that Jesus Himself refers to as “great tribulation” that would have no equal in human history. Worse than the Russian pogroms, worse than the slaughter in South Africa, even worse than Hitler’s Holocaust in Nazi Germany. So with that, let’s look at our top reasons why Matthew 24 is not talking about the Rapture of the Church.

#1: The time period that Jesus talks about is not the dispensation of the Age of Grace of the Church.

All through Matthew 24 are scriptural time clues that we, as Bible believers, need to be aware of. In Matthew 24:13, Jesus says that whoever are the people who are alive and going through this time period, they are saved by a combination of faith and works. There is no Christian in our dispensation of the Age of Grace that needs to “endure until the end” to be saved. We are saved according to Ephesians 2:8,9, and kept saved according to Ephesians 1:13,14. There is nothing in Paul’s teachings that tell us to “endure” for salvation. Paul taught and preached the doctrine of Eternal Security. But, obviously, the people living in the time of Matthew 24 are not saved that way. Hence, this will be our number one reason why Matthew 24 is not talking about the Church and it’s soon-coming Rapture.

  • “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
  • “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV) – Church Age
  • “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13,14 (KJV) – Church Age

#2: The rebuilt Jewish Temple has no practical significance for the Church

Jesus starts the chapter off by saying that the Temple will be torn down to the ground and destroyed. This happened in AD 70. But interestingly, just a few verses later, He says that it’s back up and running again, and people are worshipping there. Not only that, Jesus says to “go and read the Prophet Daniel”, specifically Daniel 9:27, to see who else shows up at the rebuilt Temple in the end times. It’s the Devil himself! But guess what? Christians don’t have or need a “temple” because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. That’s the temple God has for Christians. So Matthew 24: 15 is our second reason why Jesus cannot be talking about the Church age.

  • “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)” Matthew 24:15 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
  • “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” 1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV) – Church Age

#3: The Christian Church is not able to carry out the command to flee into the mountains

Right about the same time Jesus shows the apostles about the Abomination of Desolation, He then says that the believers living in this future time period will be instructed to “flee into the mountains” and get out of Judea, which is to say Israel. Just like in our previous reason, this one also has no practical application for any Christian in the Age of Grace. First of all, only a minute fraction of born again Christians live in Israel, rendering this command meaningless to us. But it is still a command, and as such must be carried out. But by whom? Well, how about by all the Jews which has been brought back to Israel during the false 7 Year Peace Treaty engineered by the Antichrist? Now in this context, we have perfect harmony. If all the Jews in the world were regathered as the Bible says they will be in the end times, then they will all be there in Judea and able to carry out this command. This is the only way this verse has any doctrinal meaning. The people living in this time period are told to flee, Christians are told to “wait” for His Son from Heaven who gets us out before the Wrath comes. Huge Difference. Where do the Jews flee to? Why, they flee to the red rock city of Selah, Petra!

  • “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” Matthew 24:16 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
  • “And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.” Jeremiah 29:14 (KJV)  – Tribulation Age
  • “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thessalonians 1:19 (KJV) – Church Age

#4: The Christian Church does not have a sabbath day, we have the Lord of the Sabbath Himself

Moving on down in the chapter, we arrive at Matthew 24: 20, where another huge time clue awaits us. With the previously-mentioned fleeing still in the context, Jesus then says to pray that when you turn to run, that it’s not on the Sabbath day, which is the last day of the week, Saturday. Again, Christians were never given the command to worship on the Jewish Sabbath day, because we have the Sabbath Himself, Jesus Christ. Not just the “shadow” which is represented on the sabbath. Paul says we can worship on any day we choose, but like the Apostles in Acts 20:7, we usually come together on a Sunday, the first day of the week, for obvious reasons.

  • “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:” Matthew 24:20 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
  • “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” Colossians 2:16,17 (KJV) – Church Age
  • “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:7 (KJV) – Church Age

#5: The Christian Church is not God’s “elect”, that refers to Israel and the Jewish people

Our last reason why Matthew 24 cannot be talking about the Rapture of the Church is as equally compelling as the previous 4 reasons. Jesus in verse 22 says that time of Jacob’s Trouble – the Great Tribulation – is so grievous that if He didn’t come and “cut it short” then not even the “elect” would be saved. His return to cut it short is what the Bible calls the Day of the Lord, turn to Revelation 19:14 to see where  the Church is on that Day. God’s elect is not the Christian Church, according to the Bible the Jews and Israel are God’s elect. We started this teaching by talking about how many Christians just automatically broad-brush the entire New Testament with the “church stamp”.

  • “For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.” Isaiah 45:4 (KJV)
  • “And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.” Isaiah 65:9 (KJV) – Tribulation Age

God wrote the Bible dispensationally, and that’s how we are to read, understand and apply it.

The whole Bible is God’s revelation of Himself to us, from cover to cover. The overarching theme of which is the battle for the Kingdom, and the King for whom it has been prepared. Simply put, it’s all about Jesus Christ. to wit;

“Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.” Hebrews 10:7 (KJV)

God wrote the Bible dispensationally, and it must be read that way to to grasp it’s meaning. Many Christians are shocked when you tell them that Matthew, Mark and Luke were not written about or for the Christian Church from a doctrinal perspective. It was written to Jews waiting for a Kingdom on Earth, which was postponed, and to those who will be alive on Earth during the time of the Great Tribulation after the Rapture.

But that’s a lesson for another day, hope this helps!

 

 

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • Amen Geoffrey!!

    Am Yisrasl Chai, Yeshua Adonai!!

    • Amen 🙂

      • Ron Milam

        WOW, a Grand Slam brother. I have been preaching this for years, and so many people are… lets say blocked from the understanding of Jesus’ ministry and its application to the church. Sure, all scripture is for the church, old and new testaments, but all the prophecies of the Old Testament were about Israel in some shape fashion or form. As was Jesus’ ministry.

        I was looking for you to supply this scripture: Matthew 15:24

        22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

        23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

        24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ((( I am sent ONLY to the Lost Sheep of Israel. Amen. )))

        This means Jesus’ prophecy, as you clearly pointed out, is not to the Church, but unto Israel only. And in Rev. chapter 12, the woman flees into the wilderness, and we know the woman is Israel, not the church ( Sun, Moon, and 12 stars/Josephs Dream. )

        God Bless you brother, you are doing a fabulous job, and are led by the Holy Spirit, no doubt.

        • PeteBKay

          “prophecy, as you clearly pointed out, is not to the Church, but unto Israel only”. This is like saying my family doesn’t live in my house….my wife and children and I do. The church and believing Israel are the same thing – God’s people. People of faith. Unbelievers whether Jew or Gentile are the lost. Two types of people in the world, saved and unsaved.

          • Suez

            AMEN PeteBKay!!! Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
            Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. So much false teaching on this site anymore. It is very sad. It sure makes me wonder,,,,about many. God help us! You can show scripture, but it seems to go right over their heads. And God forbid they do any study about modern day Israel, and how that came about. Oh well, they will find out, soon enough!!! 🙁 I am so thankful that the Lord has been opening my once blinded eyes to much truth!!!! The difference in people that get the truth, from those who stay in their false teachings, is you have to be willing to humble yourself to face the fact, you could be wrong. If you do this, then pray for the Holy Spirit to really lead you into HIS truth, he will show you. But, if you just want to wallow in the false doctrines taught by man, keep your head in the sand, then, NO he won’t show you! Very sad indeed. I truly fear for the ones who are so set in their man made doctrines, and won’t admit or realize they could be wrong…:( And God forbid, their teachers could be wrong!!! They take everything they spit out as gospel. Also very sad!!! My prayer is, for people to start questioning, start seeking God fervently for HIS truth, while it can yet be found!!!

          • Suez, the confusion you witness concerning these things is rooted in the fulfillment of the prophecy of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 upon the wicked: those who reject the TRUTH and who take delight in unrighteousness. God has sent them strong delusion. No one can thwart the sovereign will of God. Thus, such blind and deluded non-elect people will soon be toast. But you’ll never persuade them of anything. They are too blind, too stuck in their ways, too prideful and dead wrong.

          • Suez

            Yes, it is very sad, isn’t it. I pray for them to seek Gods truth above all things. IF they do that, he will open their eyes. He did me, but ONLY after I ask him to take away all preconceived ideas, and open my eyes to HIS truth as HE meant it to be. I was shocked, and still am, at what i am now learning! I don’t even need a” preacher” to teach me! LOL The path is narrow, and FEW there be that really find it! 🙁 Broad is the way to death and hell and MANY there be on it. Just goes to show you, it’s always better to be the odd man out. LOL I stay away from the crowds for that reason. 🙂

          • The rogue terrorist and welfare state of faux Israel of today has NOTHING to do with spiritual Israel of the New Testament, namely all born again elect adopted sons and daughters of the living Christ.

            Anyone who teaches that the Khazar impostors posing as Jews of today are anything other than the synagogue of Satan they clearly are has taken on the mark of the beast and will soon be destroyed.

      • Lee

        I wonder if you had a course on Rightly Dividing. I was beginning to understand it, but then got busy with something else. I believe the WORD of GOD on faith. Some of the things I see people write on here contridicting your teaching amazes me. I would certainly be afraid of changing the WORD to fit a person’s belief or what they have been incorrectly taught. But, I love the study of Revelation which is almost complete right now. My pastor has done a study every weekend moving through Revelations slowly. He believes Pre-Tribution. But, I want to know more about Rightly dividing I asked my pastor if he had ever heard of it and he said no. He has an open mind and would certainly consider the study.L

        • Pete

          Lee, “rightly dividing” does not mean “understanding how to divide the Bible into dispensations.” That is a hijacked definition – hijacked by dispensationalists. The Greek work for rightly dividing is orthotomeō. It just means to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right. I suggest you try to prove that modern dispensationalism is the correct way to interpret scripture, first. If that holds up under biblical scrutiny, then proceed.

          It won’t.

          • Yes, hijacked by dispensationalists like the apostle Paul. To wit;

            “For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.” 1 Cor 9:17 (KJV)

            “If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:” Eph 3:2 (KJV)

            “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:” Eph 1:10 (KJV)

            “Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;” Col 1:25 (KJV)

            Shall I continue?

        • We will be doing a show on Rightly Dividing this Sunday night at 9:00PM EST, please tune in. You will see it on the site here.

          • Pete

            Yes, please continue with your above comment. In particular, please show me where Paul said that Israel and the church are two separate people of God with two distinct plans. And show me where anyone, Paul included, ever said that we are in a “parenthesis” of God’s plan, the “church age”, in between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week. Show me where Paul or Jesus or anyone said anything remotely like “Jesus was at first going to reign over the Jews in Jerusalem on a throne, but since the Jews rejected Jesus as that king, and instead crucified Him, God changed His plan and delayed that kingdom.” THAT is dispensationalism. THAT is modern, from the 1800s. THAT is man-made, not from the Bible.

          • Pete

            Furthermore, Mr. Grider, please explain how the 1948 formation of the state of Israel can be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy if you also believe that we are in a 2000 year “gap in time” between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week, a time when (by your own belief system) prophecies concerning Israel are put ON HOLD for a time while God “deals with the church”? Impossible! 1948 cannot be anything related to Israel…by your own definition of dispensations!!! I will await your response on your Sunday night program to this and the challenges I asked above.

            FTR I really do support and even admire your work to reach the lost, on the streets…amen to that.

          • Pete

            Sorry I made a mistake in my above comment…

            1948 cannot be anything related to Israel…

            Should have said 1948 cannot be anything related to fulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament concerning Israel.

    • The word ‘Rapture’, IS NOT IN THE WORD OF GOD!! The word is not in any Bible, in any Language, ANYWHERE in the world!! It is a false doctrine that has been embraced by Churches, worldwide. If you doubt this, ask your Pastor, to show you the word in the bible. He can’t, because the word is not there. It’s a serious sin to add or change the word of God. If you want proof, see Revelation chapter 22, verses 18 & 19.

      • The word “bible” is not in the Bible, either. Does that make it disappear? Why don’t you read this: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=32728

        • This does not make it any less the word or God. Nevertheless, the word Rapture is NOT the word of God.

          • Andrew A

            rapture come from the Latin word rapare a verb for siez, snatch, take away. That word is found in the Latin Vulgate. (A bible written in Latin.) When Paul said “caught up in the clouds.” The words “caught up” would translate in Latin as rapare. So actuly yes rapture is in the bible your just looking at it in the wrong language.

          • Lee

            Andrew had the answer I was looking for.

          • The original word is indeed a greek word. That word means “to be snatched away”.

          • Josrofer

            Tracy Whether or not the word rapture is in the bible or not , the concept is.Paul writes of it very clearly in 1 Corinthians 15;51 and 52 ,and again in 1 Thessalonians 4;15 – 18.

        • Jez

          Is that the best off topic gallery pleasing quick reply you can think of?
          It makes your case seem even less likely.

          • Charles Reaves

            [1Th 4:17 NKJV] 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

            The word “caught up” in the greek is ἁρπάζω harpazō, which means

            I.to seize, carry off by force
            II.to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
            III.to snatch out or away

            I would still stay with “rapture” is not in the greek manuscripts. The Vulgate was a translation of the greek into latin so it is a copy.

        • PeteBKay

          You guys sure love to use these arguments whenever they suit you. One of your reasons for belief in a pre-trib rapture is that the word “church” (ekklesia) is not mentioned after Revelation 3. Odd that suddenly it doesn’t matter what words appear where. The word “Church” isn’t anywhere in 2 Timothy either, or in Titus, or in 2 Peter either. Does that mean those books have nothing to do with the “church”?

          The fact is, nowhere does the Bible say outright that the church will be taken to heaven prior to a 7 year tribulation. Therefore it is incumbent upon those who claim scripture says this, to prove it. There is however at least 1 verse that flat-out says that Jesus returns AFTER the tribulation.

          • In first Thess it says Jesus will gatherus in the air. If he’s coming back at the time mentioned, why gather us in the air and not on the earth?

          • Simple. No where in the Bible does it tell us that Christ comes to earth. In Matthew 24:30-31 it tells us clearly that He will gather the elect (in resurrected bodies like His) to meet Him in the clouds. Then in Revelation 19:11-16, it describes Him returning with His resurrected saints following Him wearing white garments and riding white horses with His robe dipped in blood to tread the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God upon those who remain on earth (the wicked or everybody else).

            Does Christ touch the earth in this latter coming? The Bible is not explicit on this point. This earth is going to be burnt up and will perish or “pass away” as Revelation 21:1 puts it. God is bringing a new heaven and new earth for His born again elect saints to live with Him and Yahushua for all eternity.

          • The Bible does not say that “the church” will be taken away to heaven; only the elect will be. See Matthew 24:31 for the proof. Technically, the elect (all born again believers from the last 6,000 years) and the church or bride of Christ is one and the same thing, but false teachers deceive the non-elect into believing it refers to some form of man-made religion or organized religion. It does not.

            And no where does the Bible teach a 7 year great tribulation: only a 3 1/2 year, or 1,290 day one, as revealed in Daniel 12:7 and 12:11, respectively.

            There is great confusion surrounding the length of the great tribulation due to a gross misunderstanding of what the grammar of Daniel 9:27 clearly means. That verse does NOT refer to the Antichrist, but rather to the subject of the prior verse 26, namely the Messiah, or Christ. Christ fulfilled the first 3 1/2 years of the last week of years (7 years) during His earthly ministry which in the middle of He put an end to the daily animal sacrifices and wine oblations once and for all by sacrificing Himself on the cross as the perfect Lamb of God. The second half of that final week of years is being fulfilled at this very moment and we have a mere 10 months left until it ENDS. Do many people see these things? No they do not and the fulfillment of the prophecy of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 upon them explains why.

          • Lee

            Well Watchman, I am going to study this like never before. Jesus DID SAY IT IS FINISHED on the cross. Read Daniel 12 V 7 “all these things shall be finished” KJV. I am also pleading with the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ to open my eyes to the TRUTH.

          • Suez

            Keep praying for truth Lee. If your willing to lay down all preconceived ideas that you ever thought and learned by man, then the Lord will open your eyes. Here is one the Lord showed me one day. It is very simple, but at the same time quite revealing. Even Martha knew when Christ would resurrect the dead.. At the end! NOT before the Tribulation. “Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” She was talking about Lazarus, not the heathen! She was talking about the FIRST resurrection! WOW, now that is pretty simple isn’t it! The resurrection is at the last day. Notice, Jesus did not correct her, so she must of stated a true fact! 🙂 Just some food for thought!

          • Lee

            Thank you Suez, I will pray and ask God for His Word on this. I will read and read and read the Scriptures. I don’t think it matters to me either way. Other than my strength to endure the tribulation. At that point, I need to know that I would not turn against my Lord. NO MATTER WHAT. I am not a super human. I am a small women and not very strong anymore. I know My Lord will not give me more than I can handle. Even if he has to reach in and take my life to save me. Could I have endured the Jewish camps….No. I doubt it. I am too outspoken and not strong enough. Could I tolerate being tied down and beheaded? I would cry a lot. There you go, not very strong am I? But, God my Father know this. I will study as God has asked us to.

        • Lee

          Geoffrey, how many times do you have to explain the Greek word for Rapture?

      • Danny

        Tracy, you need to dig a little deeper and rightly divide the scripture.

        Yes, it’s true the word “rapture” isn’t in our English translations because it is a Latin word from the Vulgate translation. But neither will you find the Trinity by name in the Bible, nor the word mission and a number of other terms we use to describe theological concepts clearly taught in Scripture, including, for that matter, the Bible.

        The word “Rapture” in Scripture is taken from the Latin “rapio” for the two words “caught up” used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. It has come into popular use today to refer to the Lord Jesus coming for the church, to lift her up into the heavens. One raptured is “lifted up” in love.

        • Well Taken Danny. But a Christian need to rightly divide the word or God. Caught up, does not mean we’re going to be flying out of here by way of a rapture. In order to understand 1 Thessalonians, you need to start at the subject. The subject start in 1 Thessalonians 4:13. Margaret MacDonald,a sixteen year of Scotland,was born in 1820 and a christian. But she say this vision and a dream of a pre-trib revelation and a two-stage coming. One was the rapture. The word Trinity do not have to be part of the bible but, we know that it refers to the Father, Son & the Holy Spirit.

          • Margaret McDonald and John Darby are “straw men” invented by people who want to debate Bible doctrine outside of the Bible. Paul taught the Rapture, case closed.

          • PeteBKay

            John Darby taught the “gap” between week 69 and week 70 of Daniel. That gap never existed before Darby, and it is critical to the entire pre-trib theory. John Darby taught a SECRET rapture, which was new. John Darby popularized the pre-trib theory, prior to him the vast majority of Protestant mainline denominations were post-trib. Pre-trib itself isn’t new, but the tribulation period was taught as a 3.5 year period of time and did not separate the “church age” from any other dispensation. That was an invention of John Darby. Those are just the facts, period. They don’t prove one way or another, but quit trying to minimize the facts. YOUR view is new and modern. And most of it relies upon what a MAN taught, not what God says, in Romans or anywhere else.

            There is not a single scripture in the Bible that says there will be a rapture of the church to heaven prior to a 7 year tribulation. Not one. You and the rest of the arrogant pre-tribbers had better get used to defending yourselves a little more, because people are starting to wake up. You don’t get to just make declarative statements anymore and intimidate people into submission. PROVE with scripture, dispense with the talking points!

          • John Nelson Darby doesn’t even enter into the equation. All I need to show the Pretrib is a KJV Bible….

          • How does “And immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” of Matthew 24:29 and “And THEN…” of Matthew 24:30 mean anything OTHER than a POST-trib gathering of the elect (namely all true born again saints since the beginning of time in resurrected bodies like that of Yahushua)?

            Stop all the word games and prevarications and admit that you are dead wrong on the pre-trib rapture notion AND your definition of who the elect are. You are merely shaming and disgracing yourself repeatedly by continuing to advance these absurd and deceitful notions.

            YHWH is not at all pleased with your false teaching. Let anyone who teaches anything other than what the Bible clearly says and means be accursed, just as Pual says it in Galatians 1:8-9.

            “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” Hosea 4:6

          • raelene

            The elect is Israel, not the Body of Christ which is made up of both Jew and Gentile born again believers. The “elect” will all be saved in one day at the return of Christ in glory. To say the Church of this dispensation is the elect borders on replacement theology. The Church/Bride is a separate entity from Israel the adulterous, divorced and yet to be reconciled wife of Jehovah God.

          • Suez

            Not to mention this: Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. This is pretty easy to understand. I don’t know how they can twist this one, but I’m sure they will try! 🙁

          • Lee

            Well Geoffrey, there I am with you 100%. I love my KJ. I have every other translation, but the KJ is the BEST of the BEST. I pray there is a pre trib, if not, I will pray for strength to endure.

          • Suez

            AMEN!!!!!!! Schofeild took off with it and deceived so very many also. He also promoted many false teachings, which people lap up to this day!

          • Lee

            I don’t understand why Pre or Post is such a big deal?? Is it that some are afraid to face the Tribulation? Will I be condemned if I do not believe in POST and believe in Pre? All I know is we all better be ready to face any Tribulation that is coming at us due to our belief in Jesus Christ and the ONE TRUE GOD.

          • Suez

            Because Lee. False doctrine is false doctrine, and it can cause many to stumble and fall, by not being prepared.

          • Lee

            Suez on the case of POST absolutely. That is why I always tell people to be ready for the worst. If we must endure the Tribulation (which seems to have started in some ways), then give me strength Lord. If not and we are out of here before the bad times. Then GREAT! BUT, BE READY. Don’t hang you hate on PRE TRIBULATION. That would be a blessing if the Lord came for us BEFORE the Trib. But, it may not happen that way. BE READY AT ALL TIMES….. My church teaches pre Trib. I will talk to my pastor about all of this. He firmly believes in PRE TRIB The other thing I NEED TO LEARN is the Dividing…Never heard of it before until this site.

          • Danny

            Tracy, the idea that Margaret MacDonald’s vision launched the doctrine of a “rapture” is false. Yes, she had a vision that drew attention to it and it is always held up as the impetus for the doctrine of the rapture by the replacement theology camp. However, church fathers throughout history taught the doctrine of the rapture so it wasn’t new in the 19th century. If you want to believe you’ll be around for “the time of Jacob’s trouble” that’s your prerogative, but won’t you be pleasantly surprised when you are “caught up in the air” to meet your Savior before that time of great wrath on the unrighteous? Don’t be spoon-fed, study up on this subject from all the perspectives and then you can rightly divide the truth and make up your own mind.

          • JCs

            i like to ask a question? I not against rapture happening before if so Praise the Lord- But the wrath of God is in the middle? And how can we be taken before if ? TY

          • Lee

            JC we do not need to be disaplined because we ask our questions. Come on people lighten up.

          • Lee

            Shortly after my husband passed away (within days), I too had a vision. I prayed that God would give it to me again, but He never did. It was people of all ages, races, genders were looking somewhat up and walking forward up at a slant. I kept watching it trying to figure out what God was telling me. I just know that all of them were on their way to Heaven. Whether they had died or it was the Rapture, I do not know. It stayed with me for days. God is SO good.

          • John

            Corrie Ten Boon, the legendary Holocaust survivor who saw just how bad the people of God can be made to suffer, said the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture has done a great disservice to modern Christians. It has left Christians totally unprepared for how bad it can get for them in a world that has no use for the Christian’s God. Christians must be prepared to suffer great loss in this life. How many times lately have we seen videos and heard about Christians being captured, tortured, enslaved, crucified, burned, buried alive, and beheaded in the past three months? A lot. What we’re seeing today is what the writer to the Hebrews catalogued in chapter 11 of the saints of whom this world was not worthy. I personally would love it if the Lord would just snatch us believers away, but I am not convinced this is how it will go. We have the clear testimony of the Bible and of those who have had near death experiences and talked with the Lord that He is returning. Beyond that there is much uncertainty about the details, in my opinion.

          • Lee

            Jude, I agree totally with you. If I was chosen to go through the Tribulation, so be it. God, just give me the Strength. Maybe those of us who are questioning the Pre or Post are the ones who will face the Tribulation. God may be getting us ready. He is a Good Father. The Hell that Corrie Ten Boon went through was HELL on earth. If we are to die at satan’s request, then God will let us see him before the pain of the end. I know that in my heart. We may have to endure the pain for a while, but PEACE comes in the Morning (Mourning).

          • Lee

            What verse in Chapter 11 of Hebrews?

          • Lee

            AMEN John,,,,,I am with you. Whatever way the Lord wishes to do this is fine with me. I pray it is up and out of here, but I am preparing spiritually to face the enemy if need be. Others would be smart to do the same. Pick up that Bible and listen to what God is trying to tell you. Don’t waste your breath on trying to change anothers mind. If we go up and out, it will be great. If not, God, please don’t let it hurt. AMEN

          • John,

            “Christians being captured, tortured, enslaved,
            crucified, burned, buried alive, and beheaded
            in the past three months”?

            This will continue and get worse until the times
            of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:25, then
            it’s 1thess 4:15-18, the rapture of the church,
            then the times of Jacobs trouble Jeremiah 30:7.

            1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not
            appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation
            by our Lord Jesus Christ,

            These are the promises made by Jesus and
            relayed through Paul to the church during the
            age of grace.

            John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas,
            because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
            blessed are they that have not seen, and yet
            have believed.

          • TOM C

            Just because an English word is not in the Bible, doesn’t mean a theological concept is false. Case in point: Trinity is also not in the Bible.

          • PeteBKay

            Just because the word “church” isn’t in Revelation after Chapter 3, doesn’t mean the church is absent from planet earth during that time.

            Oops.

          • Grant

            1Tim.2

            [11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
            [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
            [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

          • Lee

            I totally agree with you Grant. A women should never teach in front of the church to men and women. NEVER. That is not being sexist. I am a women. I was in a church where the pastor’s wife was stronger than he was and vocal. Very quick to judge. slowly the church began to die. It is still in operation today, but the women are very strong. The Godly women left. I am not attending church with the Godly women. These same women have a bible study led by a women. That is how it should be. The older women teaching the younger women. By the way, one of the Godly women tried to keep a bible study going that was going for almost 25 years. BUT, the wife of that pastor above, got upset with something and the bible study is now closed. What a shame. Caution women, GOD had a reason for our silence in a mixed group and in the main church services. Discussions like these on here, are good.

          • Lee

            Correction on my post about women teaching. I AM ATTENDING CHURCH WITH THE GODLY WOMEN. A different church

          • Stephen

            The Margaret McDonald hoax has been disproven over and over with many, many writings about the Rapture the pre-date her! Yet this lie continues to be repeated. How sad. 🙁

          • Paul is where I learned about the Rapture, no place else.

          • Suez

            We need to take the whole of the Bible, not just a few verses Geoff. If you take the whole of it, it all fits together like a hand and glove, and you will see the truth. 🙂

          • Tracy M

            Tracy H,

            Several people have given good explanations on here that “rapture” comes from a Latin word in the Latin Vulgate that when translated to English is “caught up”. The word in the original Greek is “harpazo”. You said however, that it doesn’t mean to “fly out of here”. A good cross reference is Acts 8:39 where the same Greek word “harpazo” is used. In this passage, the Spirit of the Lord snatched (i.e. harpazo) Philip and the Ethiopean Eunich saw him no more. Most, including myself, believe that Philip disappeared immediately having been transported by the Holy Spirit literally to another place. Otherwise Luke would have been using some melodramatic language. Why not simply say that Philip said good-bye and walked away. This is the exact same idea as the rapture.

          • Lee

            VERY good Tracy. I love this discussion

          • Lee

            Danny, I agree. EVERTHING on here can sound good, but study for yourself is a good start to better understand what God wants us to believe. I read these posts with my Bible next to me on the table…I check everything out. It is a blessing to me to do it this way. I pray that God will open my eyes to the truth. Always!!!

          • Lee

            I will not look up to a man or a women….Who are these people that you lift them so high that you call their doctrine correct. Raptured, caught up, whatever it is, we must be ready to STAND at that day and be accountable for our lives..

            I say be cautious of taking the word from any man or women..Stick with the Holy Spirit and His ability to give you a conversation with God.

            The Catholic Church changed a lot of things…I believe one was to pay them for your sins??? Something like that..They changed the day of Sabbath.. I am not a 7th Day Adventist…Just sayin.. They worship a MAN that they lift up in all Royality and great wealth. Kiss his RING? What is that all about? I say, whether I go out of here flying up into the clouds, or die and am raised by My Lord, either way is ok with me. I doubt I will go to hell for believing there is a Rapture. I wonder what God thinks of Catholics who bow before a MAN????

          • TWR

            There is no rapture and Paul never taught that. That is the teaching of the Christian church. Matthew 4:29-31 says immediately after tribulation, God gathers his chosen ones from the four winds. Why would there be a rapture of a church before Israelites?

            This is a church that does not even keep God’s commandments. God taught his statutes and judgments to the Israelites. Those that were to be grafted in were to be taught by Israelites. Rome scattered the Jews and self-appointed themselves as replacements.

            Matthew 24:5 says For MANY will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. How many have you seen? You won’t see them. This prophesy was fulfilled when Rome took Israelite scriptures and made them into a Christian book. It means many will pollute my words with their own doctrine to mislead.

            Those statutes we are supposed to follow are sitting in the old testament untouched because the Christian Bible teaches grace. Paul said because we have grace does that mean we can sin; no. God destroyed the world once. Why do Christians think their is a church and they have God’s favor over his chosen? There is NO RAPTURE!

            Matthew 24:37-41King James Version (KJV)

            37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

            38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

            39 And knew not until the flood came, and TOOK them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

            40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.

            41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.

            The one that is taken is the one that is killed. That is why he uses the example of Noah. This where it talks about endurance of the saints.

            Daniel 12:12King James Version (KJV)

            12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

            The Christian left behind doctrine is a farce. You want to be the one left behind.

          • Bro. Nick Nicholas

            Tracy Harris – Here is an article that predates Pastor Darby by more than 1,400 years –

            “What did the first century church fathers believe about the Rapture?”
            Beginning and End @ http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

            *NOTE: Verses from “the word of the LORD” are changed to the Holy Bible, KJV
            —————–

            Ephraim The Syrian – Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) – In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

            “We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

            Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares:
            * “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” (Amos 5:18a)
            For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

            – which is why pre-great tribulation believing CHRISTians are to pray for “the coming of the day of God”
            (2 Peter 3:12, KJB)

            – “the LORD JEHOVAH” in his wondrous Mercy has not appointed “the church” (last used in Rev 3:14 KJB) – to endure or go thru “the wrath to come” (Matt 3:7 | Luke 3:7 | 1 Thess 1:10, KJB)

            “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
            Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” – (2 Peter 3:12-13, KJB)

            * “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
            As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
            Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?”
            (Amos 5:18-20, KJB)

          • Suez

            “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” (Amos 5:18a)” Could it be this may be talking about the heathen?. Because, by the time that day comes, they will already know God is God, and he is real. They will have found out, who is really in control! A lot happens before that day that isn’t going to be pleasant for the Heathen. Maybe we should study out what that really can mean. It’s certainly talking about those who NOT in Christ! Father will take us up before the final climax, I’m sure! Problem being, people think the trump sounds and it is instant. What if the last trump sounds, we are caught up, then the rest follows?? Just a thought! 🙂 Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
            Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
            Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? They will know it’s coming. Up until this time, they mock God, saying where is the promise of his coming…

          • Suez

            Tracy, while I applaud your zeal for trying, it is of no use. They have a excuse for everything false they spit out of their mouth. We try, but may as well drop it. We will be caught up a some point, as the word says so, but not in a Pre Trib, fly me out way!!! Just pray for their eyes to be open, or at least that they start questioning that they could be wrong, and pray about it, then the Lord would open their eyes. But, if they hold onto their prideful ways, (they can’t be wrong), then he won’t, as he will allow them to believe the lie. 🙁 I daily ask the Lord if I could be wrong on something, I pray, Lord if I am wrong, show me, help me to see it your way, help me to know the truth about all things, and not mans lies. He does, and has, and I’m amazed every-time!!! God Bless you sister!

          • Lee

            I asked my pastor if he knew anything about RIGHTLY Divided. He did not. What does that tell me? I need to understand it more before I try to explain it.

        • One is only lifted up as one of the elect in TRUTH and love. without both, one fails to evidence the two essential traits exhibited by anyone of God’s elect (chosen by God individually since before the world began whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of Life and who become born again followers of /christ at some time during their lives on earth).

          • Suez

            Amen! Col_3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

        • Lee

          Maybe Danny you need to purchase an English/Greek Bible. I have a Bible Old Testement Hebrew and New Testement KJV

        • Lee

          Sorry I meant Tracy not Danny on the GREEK/ENGLISH bible

      • J

        The Biblical term for the rapture is called the “catching away” or being caught away ( 1 Thess 4:16 KJV).

        On top of that,your entire argument is built on hypocrisy because the word “Bible” is not in the Bible. What are you going to do with that??

        • Bro. Nick Nicholas

          J – Nor the words ‘the Trinity’ – but it is written in the ‘Bible’:

          “For there are three that bear record in heaven,
          the Father,
          the Word,
          and the Holy Ghost:
          and these three are one.”
          (1 John 5:7, KJB)
          .

      • Deborah

        Tracy — You are correct that the word’rapture’ is not in the Word of God. That is because the English word ‘rapture’ is derived from the Latin, which was derived from the original Greek. The Bible was not written in English or Latin. The New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin or English. The Greek word is ‘harpazo’ which was later translated into Latin as ‘raptus’ and later became ‘rapture’ in English. This particular argument for disproving the concept of a rapture is baseless.

        • i think what everyones problem is not rather they believe in the rapture i think it’s the timing of the event pre tib mid trib or post trib. iam just aksing does that matter we all put our trust in Jesus Christ as our lord and savior.

          • Lee

            Very true Larry… I questioned my pastor once about not preparing his flock to face and possibly go through the tribulation. I like the idea of Rapture, but I believe the church has an obligation to prepared people for the worst hell they will ever face other than hell itself. If we are puffed up to believe in the “nice out of here belief”…we may not be spiritually ready to stand when we are asked to turn against Our Lord. It better be a teaching that the churches take up soon, as this world is turning into a living hell on earth. Christians are next to be locked up or put away… Prepare and stop with the fluffy – it does not matter, I won’t be here anyway. Oh ya???

      • hedgeman

        The exact timing of the Rapture of the Church is part of God’s secret wisdom. It will happen when the Church has reached its full number of members rather than on a specific date. Romans 11:25. No one but God know what that number is so its impossible for any man to know the exact day. We have been told of the raptures exsistance, and that it will precede the end time judgements Romans 5:9, 1 Cor 15:51-53, 1 Thes. 1:10, 1Thes. 5:9 1 Thes 4:16-17, Rev 3:10. Any one who teaches that word of Rapture dosen’t appear in the Scriptures is counting on our ignorance. he hopes we don’t know that word rapture is of Latin origin, wheras the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek word that describes the rapture is Harpazo Its found in 1 Thess. 4:17 where it is translated caught up. If you were to take the latin version of 1 Thes. 4:17 and translate it into English you would see the word Rapture. Thats because caught up and rapture are equivalent terms.

      • Hedgeman

        Yes it’s very clear.

        • Ron Murphy

          Look hedgeman, When Jesus appears in Matthew 24, he need not gather the Jews from every where. They are in Jerusalem already, Zechariah 14.

          Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

          This residue is the remnant(144K).

          • Ron Murphy

            Matthew 24 is not Zechariah 14. One he comes on a cloud and the other he comes on a horse. One he comes to get his saints, the other he brings his saints with him.

          • Lee

            Ron, great answer. My husband before he died said he hoped Jesus would ask him to be in the party who comes with Jesus at the Second Coming to fight on the side of Christ. My husband was a great Man of God and did many studies on his own. He wanted deeply to understand God’s Words and messages to us.

          • TWR

            Breaks my heart to see people deceived. There are no Jews in Jerusalem except for those ethnic Jews who are being mistreated. Ezekiel 9, God orders the destruction of false Jews in Jerusalem, after he marks the real Jews. You have to read the Bible line on line and precept on precept. Not just take a verse and run with it.

            Genesis 9:27 (KJV)
            God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

            It is Japheth living in and controlling Israel, pretending to be Shem.

            Revelation 3:9 (KJV)
            Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

            Ezekiel 9:4-7King James Version (KJV)

            4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

            5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

            6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

            7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

            God marks his remnant of Jerusalem and destroys Japheth. The Jews are here in the U.S. and Israel is scattered everywhere. That is who is gathered in Mat 24:31, after tribulation, before wrath. There is no rapture. The residue is the remnant he marks while Jerusalem is being destroyed, not the 144,000.

          • Suez

            @ TWR. Thank you!!! Boy would I love to talk with you!!! 🙂

      • Steve from Ohio

        The word Bible is not in the Bible.

        GOD never puts his people under his wrath…..ever. Never happened in the Bible anywhere.

        What people are confused on is the wrath of GOD or the wrath of men.
        The great Tribulation will be the wrath of GOD. No one who believes will come under the wrath of GOD. GOD will not punish those who follow his laws and love HIM.

        Christians will come under the wrath of men who will kill them thinking they are doing god’s work. They will be doing the work of the god of this world….Satan.

        So to say there will be no taking away of GOD’S people is wrong. Totally wrong. But I am sure that there will be many who will argue their point. GOD did say that in the end times, many will be deceived.

        • Lee

          I believe the men who are killing Christians are the Muslims thinking they are doing a good thing for their god. Their god is not OUR god. Their god is satan.

        • TWR

          He punished his chosen, covenant people time after time. He has allowed Israel to go in captivity many times for disobedience. How many people out here are really obeying God’s word? Christians are created by Rome. There are Jews, and gentiles to be grafted in. God doesn’t recognize Christianity.

        • PeteBKay

          Steve, then quit using the argument (if you do) that the word “church” is not in Revelation after chapter 3 as proof that the church is in heaven. And just because God doesn’t put people under His wrath doesn’t mean He whisks them away to heaven to hang out and party while the world burns. You talk about how God has never in the Bible put His people under His wrath. Well, God has never whisked His people to heaven either.

          And I thought you pre-tribbers considered the entire nation of ethnic national Israel to be “God’s people”? Are you saying that all Jews who have not accepted Christ will be here and go through the wrath? Or not here? Or????

      • jimmy

        Thank you for posting that, the rapture is a false doctrine started by a catholic priest,Judah along with the lost tribes of Israel will all go through the tribulation!And that would be the church!

      • Danny

        Sadly, there is a nut job in every crowd. Sad person, just read THE BIBLE. It says “caught up” in English, translated from the Greek. The Greek word here is HARPAZO. Har-pa-zo. That Greek word was translated into Latin by the Catholics. Their word is Rapturo. Guess WHAT RAPTURO translates into English?!?!?!??! RIGHT!!!! R-A-P-T-U-R-E!!!! Yeah, now YOU are educated whether you wanted to be or not, which likely you didn’t cause you didn’t do anything about RESEARCHING and finding out the truth, instead of just running off at the mouth.

        • But you do not need Greek to arrive at that conclusion. A KJV 1611 in ENGLISH tells you the same thing….

          • TWR

            There is no rapture. It is Christian doctrine supported by the movies. 24:37-41King James Version (KJV)

            37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

            38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

            39 And knew not until the flood came, and TOOK them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

            40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.

            41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.

            The one that is taken is killed. That is why he uses the example of Noah. This where it talks about endurance of the saints.

            Daniel 12:12King James Version (KJV)

            12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

            It is those who are left behind and endure that will rule with Christ. Why does this church feel they have precedence over covenant people?

      • Julie Latham

        The word ‘Rapture’ is found in the Latin Vulgate as Rapare and is known in the New testament as the Greek word “Harpazo”, Strongs Number, 726: to seize-catch (away, up), pull,pluck, take (by force).

      • Linda Fox

        That is true and the word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible. It is not scriptural but, that is another topic.

      • Then why did Jesus say to pray that we be worthy to escape all these things?
        Why did Paul say we’d be gathered together in the air?

      • You are absolutely right. The gathering of the elect, in which we are going to be “caught up” into the air in resurrected bodies to be with Christ in the clouds is referred to in Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55. They all describe the same prophesied event in slightly different terms to elaborate on what the other passages both say and mean.

        What we are witnessing here is the false teaching of a doctrine of devils and nothing more. All false teachers, this one included, will soon meet with swift and sure destruction. In the meantime, he is strongly deluded by God in fulfillment of the end times prophecy of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. Is not it interesting and instructive to see how many followers of his just lap up his unbiblical nonsense! The Bible clearly predicts this too in Matthew 24:24. We are living in the last 10 months of that great tribulation referred to in Matthew 24:15-28, right now!!! Let the wise understand.

        • Suez

          Watchman on the wall. I agree with most all of what you say, as the Lord instructs me in much the same things. But, may i ask why you believe we have only 10 months left, when the Bible says, no man knows the hour or the day. I know we are able to see the season. Sorry, I guess I’m not completely wise yet…LOL I getting better though! Still seeking. Thanks, S

      • Lee

        But there is a WORD in another language that means Rapture Correct? The WORDS of Jesus Christ were not written in ENGLISH

      • Adam

        Neither is the word ‘trinity’ in the bible. And the word rapiemur is in the latin vulgate bible where we get our english word rapture from. So sorry your incorrect.

  • Deborah

    You said ‘God wrote the Bible dispensationally and that it must be read that way to grasp its meaning.’ Well said — AMEN! Thank you for boldly proclaiming the truth the way Christians need to have it (whether they agree or disagree).

  • Danny

    Agreed, Geoffrey, but expect you will get a good amount of push back from “replacement” crowd.

    • Ready and expecting it. If I can reach just a few people who truly want to learn the Bible, and be able to help them to grow, it’s worth it.

    • Deborah

      Those that stood for the Truth have always met opposition. Consider Apostle Paul who was met with resistance over and over again for the truths contained in his message. No amount of opposition is ever going to change what is Truth. Paul has lots to say on that topic in I & II Timothy. Read and be encouraged in the face of opposition.

  • Raelene

    It’s refreshing to read that someone else realizes the Church is not the “elect”. The Bible makes it clear in every mention of that word, including when Paul mentions the elect in the book of Romans. He refers to them and addresses them as those who know the law in chapter 7 of Romans.
    This commentary is right on target.

    • Amen, thank you 🙂

      • Susan

        Thank you, Raelene. I read your website article you posted and agree 100%!! It was so refreshing. Thank you so much. Sometimes, on Facebook, there is so much arguing, so much confusion. I really am thankful I read your website article with scriptures to back it all up. This is how I was taught, also. God Bless you, Sue.

        • Raelene

          You’re welcome Susan. God bless you, also.

    • Suez

      Well, I don’t know about you, but I am elect of God. Elect of God means favorite or chosen. I guess you would have to throw out a whole lot of scripture in the New Testament too, since it tells of how we, (Born Again Children of God) are Chosen! I am now part of the Elect of God! I am Israel, because I am circumcised of heart! All praise be unto his mighty name!!!! 1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
      1Co_1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: Last but not least, maybe the BEST one: Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
      Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
      Gal 3:28 There IS NEITHER Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all ONE in Christ Jesus.
      Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, THEN ARE YE Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Praise God!!!!!
      2Co_8:19 And not that only, but who was also CHOSEN Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
      Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
      Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
      Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:
      Eph_1:4 According as he hath CHOSEN us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
      2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning CHOSEN you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
      2Ti_2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath CHOSEN him to be a soldier.
      Jas_2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

      1Pe_2:9 But ye are a CHOSEN generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
      Rev_17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and CHOSEN, and faithful.
      So, I guess your saying, none of these verses are for the Blood washed saints of God,,,right?

  • Mr. Grider:

    The word Rapture, is NOT in the bible. Nor, is it in ANY bible in ANY language anywhere in the world!! It is a false teaching that churches around the world are preaching. Ask a Pastor, in any church to show you where the church will be rapture out. It is a serious sin to add or change the word of God. Want proof? See Revelation chapter 22, verses 18 &19. True Christians are expected to stand against the evil one (Satin) and not go flying off to where-ever. There is NO rapture.

    • Raelene
    • Tracy Harris,

      “and not go flying off to where-ever.

      There is NO rapture.” ???

      Tracey the church does not go flying off

      to where-ever, we go to meet the Lord in

      the clouds in the air !

      1Thess 4:15-18 KJV

      15 For this we say unto you by the word
      of the Lord, that we which are alive and
      remain unto the coming of the Lord shall
      not prevent them which are asleep.

      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
      heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
      archangel, and with the trump of God: and
      the dead in Christ shall rise first:

      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall
      be caught up together with them in the clouds,
      to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever
      be with the Lord.

      18 Wherefore comfort one another with these
      words.

      “17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be
      caught up together with them in the clouds, to
      meet the Lord in the air: ”

      This is the ” rapture” ” catching away ” ” caught
      up ” of the church ! In the air to meet Jesus,
      revealed by Paul in Thessalonians and in 1Corinth-
      ians 15:51-53.

      Mathew 24 ? The disciples asked Jesus about
      the sign of his coming and the end of the world ?
      Nobody was asking about a rapture because it
      was not revealed until Paul spoke of it ! about
      30 years later, Just one of the MYSTERIES Paul
      revealed during the dispensation of grace to the
      church ! The rapture of the church and second
      coming of Jesus are two separate events !

      We are to be looking for that blessed hope !

      Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope,
      and the glorious appearing of the great God
      and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

      We are NOT to be waiting to go through the
      great tribulation, that’s the time of Jacobs
      trouble ! Jeremiah 30:7, not the church’s.

      Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day
      of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day
      of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

    • -This word rapture is used as a description of what will happen when this selected few, the blood washed believers are suddenly and abruptly taken away. If you can believe the sudden great gathering of the righteous dead out of their graves. Justly, completely prophesied in scripture, then all you have to do is realize, right after Jesus removed the righteous dead from their graves, he will removed the righteous living from the planet, as is also prophesied.
      -The great gathering of saints, or the resurrection of the dead isn’t a teaching the Apostle Paul imagined, but it was told him, and prophesied to him of Holy Spirits. It will be a time of indescribable reward, that the faithful believers will no longer suffer with the unbelievers, but are worthy as the servants of Christ Righteous Blood instead to escape.
      -As an Apostle/prophet of Jesus Christ Holy Spirits have been prophesying to me of end-time events for nearly thirty years now. I must tell you, they’ve been most revealing, most telling about two particular events in particular. The fall of nation building(see apostate free world), to the resurrection of the righteous dead, living. This astronomical event will act or be the gathering together of all the righteous both dead and living ever to exist on this planet from Genesis to Revelation, unto glorified bodies.

      And he said unto me, write blessed are those bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb!!! The Spirit and Bride say come, how can she welcome you, unless she’s prepared by God’s throne to receive you?
      AWAKE! God Is Not Mocked, Apb, The RAM, http://www.lordurusalem.blogspot.com

      • Suez

        Your a false Prophet. Anyone who calls themselves a Prophet, we surely know is a FALSE One. I rebuke you in the name of the Son of the Living God, Christ the Lamb of God! Take your self else where! The prophets in the Bible, didn’t run around trying to drum up business by calling themselves prophets….

    • Jose

      Tracy, There is a rapture, Except the timing a lot of people get wrong.Those that believe they’ll be raptured out of all hardship are going to be ill prepared for what is coming.They are assuming their robes are spotless,and they say we don’t have to do works to be saved which is true,yet men of god have often been tried and they had to endure those trials and tribulation and come out like silver. Pro_25:4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer. Having to go through trials is not to be compared to doing works.It’s funny how some say the Jews are not God’s chosen people anymore the church took their place.But when there is trouble all of a sudden they again are the elect.And God has not cast them off because they are the natural branches that when they believe they can be grafted back in to the tree.Now present day Israel is Jacob.They haven’t struggled with the “angel” yet and they’ll go through much trouble but the church will be right along side them and when The Lord sits down to judge the nations he’ll ask how did you treat the least of these my brethren.The church will go through great tribulation as written in Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
      Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
      Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. See here its not works but to purge.It will be the churches finest hour as it says in Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. I have one question for the pretribbers or maybe two.Why is it that the rapture hasn’t taken place yet seeing so many Christians in the middle east are being driven from their homes,churches are being burned ,woman and children raped and being sold into slavery,men shot and beheaded.Does God not love that part of the bride?Does he only love the western bride?

      • ” I have one question for the pretribbers or maybe
        two. Why is it that the rapture hasn’t taken place yet ”

        1 )
        Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye
        should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be
        wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is
        happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
        be come in.

        The times of the Gentiles has not concluded.

        Does he only love the western bride ?

        2 )
        There is only one church, no east or west, just one !

        Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek,
        there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male
        nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

        Jesus will reward martyrs and such at the judgment
        seat of Christ. 2 Corth 5:10.

        We will go through the tribulation ?

        1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to
        wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus
        Christ,

        • Iceman4Christ

          Agreed! 😀

        • Jose

          Mike I don’t believe there are two churches East and West, That’s precisely why I’m asking that question. Does the church in the west think that are a separate church from those Christians going through tribulation right now in the middle east. The church in the middle east is not being spared from these difficult times. And there is a difference between tribulation and the wrath of god. Of one we’ll be spared of the other Jesus said in John In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Who do you think the saints are of who Daniel said Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Salvation is not whether or not we’ll go through the tribulation, it’s whether or not we endure unto the end. Remember the words of our Lord “the same shall be saved”. And I don’t think that everyone will come to a violent death necessarily but let’s not be afraid to suffer for him 2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. we shouldn’t expect to be zapped out of here while other parts of the bride stay behind to suffer. And like you said there is only one bride. not one that has to go through tribulation and another that gets a early ticket home while flying business class and drinking lattes. It’s an absurd thought.

        • This is yet another example of people taking verses out of context and twisting them to support the pre-trib lie. Whenever Paul uses that word ‘wrath’ it is always used to mean eternal judgement, not the Tribulation.

          • Bro. Nick Nicholas

            Nathaniel Lewis – You are absolutely correct about ‘people taking verses out of context and twisting them’ – for you did NOT consider what the Apostle Paul wrote:
            “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against THE DAY OF WRATH and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;”
            (Romans 2:5, KJB)

            – Since when is “THE DAY OF WRATH” – ‘eternal judgement’?

            Ps – “the day of wrath” in various forms was also written by other authors in both OLD and NEW Testaments Books of “the word of the LORD”:

            =================

            “the day of wrath” ~ The Holy Bible, KJV – OLD Testament
            Job 21:30
            Proverbs 11:4

            =================

            “the day of the wrath of the LORD” ~ OT ONLY
            Ezekiel 7:19

            =================

            “the day of the LORD’s wrath” ~ OT ONLY
            Zeph 1:18

            =================

            “a day of wrath” ~ OT ONLY
            Zepheniah 1:15

            =================

            “the great day of his wrath” ~ NT ONLY
            Revelation 6:17
            .

          • Suez

            Very true brother Nick. But ne always have to keep with the subject matter, above an below the verse also. But, as I agree with these verses, Wrath can also mean the wrath of hell, or eternal punishment.

        • Suez

          Mike. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the{ hope of salvation}.
          1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
          {1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him}.
          It is clearly talking about Salvation. What does Salvation do? It brings us into personal relationship to Christ, and therefore it also is keeping us from the wrath of Hell itself. We are saved from eternal wrath or hell, because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Just read the scripture above and below this verse in 5:9 they all tie in together. 🙂

    • Lee

      Tracey Harris…..It could be that some are to believe there is no Rapture as they will be asked to stay and endure the horrors of that day… I do believe the church uses Rapture and it does cause some not to become prepared for whatever they are called to endure. I want to believe in the Rapture, but I also ask God to give me the strength to go through whatever it is I am asked to do…I do not want to deny Christ under any circumstances, and wonder how I would endure what the the 12 had to face. Could I do it? Only with God’s strength. I look forward to the Rapture and am always looking up. Churches need to be up front with their flocks….They need to talk about the bad that we may have to endure… I hope I made sense…

  • June

    Thank you so much as you have answered some questions I have had. God bless you. Everything that has breath praise the Lord, praise the Lord!!

    • Amen, sis…I wrote this article for believers just like you. Please share it, thanks!

      • Bro. Nick Nicholas

        Geoffrey Grider – Thank you for being willing to be a Biblical ‘Watchman on the Wall’ – to warn those few who will listen
        – of the increasing eternal spiritual dangers, and to tell others the ‘Good News’ of “the Gospel of Jesus Christ” – that “the Lamb that was slain” may receive the reward of His suffering!

        May there be more that will join you – REGARDLESS OF THE PERSONAL COST
        ~ with ‘NO Reserves, NO Retreat, NO Regrets’
        – RIGHT NOW
        – TODAY – AND TOMORROW – AND THE DAY AFTER THAT – AND …!!!

        “Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.”
        (Ps 115:1, KJB)
        .

        • Amen, brother…thank you!

          • Lee

            I still do not understand, if I do not totally believe in Pre-Trib, am I am in trouble?

          • Suez

            Lee, NO. Just keep seeking the truth of what God says. God delights in those who seek him and his truth!!! It all doesn’t come overnight unfortunately! LOL Silly girl! I pray, Lord time is short, I need to learn quickly now. 🙂 If we love the Lord with all our heart, soul, and spirit, and are truly seeking his face, no matter if we don’t have it altogether, he still loves us. He loves a humble and truth seeking heart. Keep on seeking Lee, ask the Holy Spirit to lead you. It may help to stay away from books, TV preachers and rooms like this for a while. And just get locked in with God alone. That is what it took for me to unlearn things, and start seeing truth. It is harder to unlearn ,than it is to get the truth. You may see the truth, but to then, to get the error out, is very hard. The devil doesn’t want you knowing the truth in anything. Bless you sister. S

  • Danny

    Deborah, don’t mistake my comment. I wasn’t backing down or suggesting that I or Geoffrey should — don’t know where you got that. My comment was directed at the heretical replacement theology camp that pounce at the suggestion of dispensationalism. Thanks for the lecture though.

    • Deborah

      Danny, I didn’t mistake your comment. Please don’t read my ‘lecture’ as some kind of rebuke or personal scolding because that isn’t what I intended. There are many others who also read the comments and it is for those that I also aim to benefit.

      • Danny

        Deborah, I was sincere about the comment about the “lecture”. You are right to speak what you said. I appreciate it, just wanted to clarify my comment. God Bless sister!

  • Mike Campbell

    People seem to have a hard time understanding when The Lord is dealing with Israel or the Church. Who does Christ talk to, the Jew, not the Gentile. Apostle Paul reaches out to the Gentile, so you know he is talking about the rapture.

  • Andrew A

    This is a bit off topic but I would not mind a better explanation on dispensations.

    • Dispensations in the Bible refer to God’s salvation plan in different ages. For example, God dealt differently with Adam and Eve than He did with Noah. Different with Noah than with Moses, and so on. Please get yourself a copy of Clarence Larkin’s “Dispensational Truth” to learn more about this topic, thanks!

      • Andrew A

        Thanks. I will look the book up. If I have anymore questions I’ll simply ask after I read the book involving the subject. Thank you for the very fast response.

      • Rob

        I had every book Clarence Larkin wrote at one time until I realized he uses the RV (corrupt text) to change scripture starting right out with Gen.1:1 where he changes was to became thus changing the whole meaning of the verse. Beware of false prophets. I can’t judge the man’s salvation but I can judge his doctrine & what false version of text he uses to back up his own deception.

  • Hello Geoffrey ,
    Please, I know full well it is easier to attack a writer, than to write a column oneself, especially when discussing the scriptures. So, I don’t intend to be of an attacking or critical spirit – it is just that I truly don’t understand the contexts of this post (this once) from all the posts you have written; I really don’t…
    Perhaps I should not post these questions openly, but I was not honored by my friend request, nor have your email (sorry). Chaplain@LightshipMinistries.Org – is mine…
    I am confused often by your mixed theological Biblical viewpoints; so perhaps you can clarify some things to me? First, in addressing your seemingly reformed viewpoints when concerning Christ and His disciples, I think that you are historically correct, in your study about the times of the Jews/ the Church age; yet this topic cannot possibly end there (to me). As all the scriptures agrees, when taken in contexts, as a whole – and we “could have” similar overlapping events – maybe…
    So, to me, your whole premise of your understanding these texts seem to be that which is built upon using a “historical faith”, while leaning to ones natural understanding of the scripture..? The brethren are warned against doing such a thing. So I don’t see your point in arguing for a particular eschatology doctrine, or another?
    Also, in referencing the difference between the word: Revelations (the divine or supernatural disclosure) and the term: Rapture – (taken up into the clouds with Christ) escapes me – in that one event is in being “given the light of God to see”… Yet the word Rapture is being used to describe being “taken up with Christ (physically) from amongst the earth”.
    I’m very sorry, but I see little edification by what you have written here today; it only leaves “me” with more questions and confusion concerning future events. I have been meaning to ask you: why do you call your blog “Now the End Begins” if you see no significance concerning the past: with the present times we live in?
    Anyway, I’m not trying to be smart, or demeaning of your internet fellowship in anyway – and I usually quite enjoy your articles and insight… Yet I simply do not understand how you are meshing your (historic) Bible prophecy – with the current events of today. I see them as in 2 Thessalonians 2, for example.
    I think these are fair questions, when concerning Now the End Begins (blog)..? I’ just trying to get a handle on how “YOU” think events may unfold; as that this might be helpful in building others up; rather than tearing down peoples understanding, without offering an alternative explanation? Do you see what I am attempting to express..?
    I’m quite sure your motives in writing such articles are meant to try and clarify the doctrines; but for me (again), I just have even more questions now than understanding. Here’s hoping, that you won’t block me for this post…
    Bro. Roland

    • Well, by virtue of the fact that you can find this website you have my email address in the CONTACT US section of the site, yes? And I am at my max friends limit on Facebook, its nothing personal. Now, to answer your questions which I am more than happy to do:

      My doctrine is that a bible believer, I am not Reformed in theology. Having said that, Christians in the age of Grace are not spiritual Jews and we do not inherit the promises made to Israel. My doctrine is according to 2 Timothy 2:15, the scriptures rightly divided. The Church is not Israel and Israel is not the church. The Apostle Paul clearly taught the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church. I don’t know how much more clearly I can make it. We live in a day and time when prophecy is beginning to come to pass. Hence the name, NOW THE END BEGINS….thanks for writing!

      • Danny

        Concisely and succinctly stated, brother Geoffrey, nicely done. I have much to learn and you are an excellent teacher. Thanks for your ministry.

      • I agree, Israel (the land mass) has nothing today with today; we are however the spiritual children of Abraham; ei – God the Father, if we be found in Christ. I said reformed, as the PCA – (that I am no longer with) teach about Nero Cesar being (the anti christ)as for the first part of your article… Sorry, Yet I still don’t understand your point about Revelations/Rapture – I’m not saying their the same, but I don’t see the connection prophetically…
        I will email you, (if you like) perhaps you would spell it out for me, Yes?

        • Sure, happy to. Think of it like this: THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH —–the Tribulation—-THE REVELATION OF JESUS AT THE SECOND COMING. People confuse, or attempt to “splice together” the Rapture, one event, with the Second Coming or Revelation, a second event, and try to make them all happen at the same time. Which is impossible. The Rapture of the Church and the Revelation of Jesus at the Second Coming are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS, with the Tribulation in between them. Does that help?

          • Yes it does, thanks for taking your time with me, in explaining… I would venture to say that ‘our’ Bride Groom, has the wedding feast first, (rapture) and then returns to destroy Babylon; and “That Wicked”? Is that a fair assessment of what you have written to me..?

          • You are welcome. Rapture – Judgment Seat Of Christ – Wedding Feast – Return On Horses For Armageddon…thats what we can look forward to while the Trib rages down below.

          • Suez

            @Roland, be sure when studding about the marriage supper of the lamb to note, where it is in scripture, and all the other things happening in that same chapter. It is talking about the end, not the begging of the Tribulation….Rev. 19 is all about the End of all of this, NOT the beginning! So, please keep it in the context of where it is…It says nothing of the marriage supper being before the Tribulation period. That is another made up false teaching of men!

  • rick deacon

    I thought your last two posts on the rapture and 2nd coming were the clearest ones I ever heard and done with brevity. Thanks for showing people how clear the word can be when you rightly divide. God Bess you and your work o know

    • Thank you! It’s hard to take what is about 2 hours of teaching and condense it into an article, but the Holy Spirit leads and guides. Rightly dividing your Bible, as Paul commands us to do, is the guaranteed, sure cure for any and all Bible “contradictions”. God did not write a confusing book, but He did write a complex one that takes, among other things, lots of STUDY!

      • Bro. Nick Nicholas

        Geoffrey Grider – My ‘brother-in-Christ Jesus’ ~ thank you yet again for your article – and for your also continuing to be a Biblical ‘Watchman on the Wall’ – which is resulting more and more attacks against sound Biblical Doctrine and Teaching.

        AMEN on lots of STUDY – AND PRAYER!

        For those few who are actually “born again” believeth followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” we should always remember the fact:
        Ҧ For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
        neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
        For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
        so are my ways higher than your ways,
        and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
        (Isaiah 55:8-9, KJB)

        What “the Lord God Almighty” hath said in “the word of the LORD” has been inerrently preserved in the Holy Bible, KJV ~ BUT how many actually believe that “every word of God is pure”?
        For those that do ~ “the word of the LORD” becomes more and more real ~ and we are able ~ only with the help of “the only wise God” to:
        “(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)”
        (2 Cor 5:7, KJB)
        .

        • Raelene

          Amen!

  • Mandrake

    Would I be correct in assuming that this verse also has to do with the rapture? I have always thought so because of the key word – escape.

    I have also wondered if there is not going to be a rapture, does it mean that if Christians are here during the Tribulation, that they will be immune to the mind control of the Antichrist, that they will cannot be seduced by the dark side (to use a Star Wars analogy)?

    I also wonder about the Bible telling us that the image of the beast will order that those who refuse to receive the mark will be killed. The bible mentions that those who are sealed will be immune to the power of the beast. These are the things I have been wondering about.

    King James Bible
    Luke 21:36
    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    I would be most interested to find out about these points, especially as we are living in increasingly strange and perilous times.

    • Luke 21 is the sister passage to Matthew 24, so it is still about the Jews in the Tribulation. What they “escape” is not the Tribulation, but the “snare” mentioned in the previous verse – “For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.”. People who refuse the Mark of the Beast get killed in the Trib – BUT – they “escape” the wrath of God at the Judgment. Make sense?

      • Mandrake

        Sure does. Thanks.

        Another thought. It is just me or does it seem like world events are speeding up and getting more bizarre every day?

        It sure seems to me that we are heading for something big – too many things happening all at once.

        • We are heading towards that Day at lightning speed….

          • Bro. Nick Nicholas

            Geoffrey Grider – AMEN – perhaps today dear “Lord Jesus Christ”

            “He which testifieth these things saith,
            Surely I come quickly.
            Amen.
            Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
            The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
            Amen.”
            (The Revelation of Jesus Christ 22:20-21, KJB)
            .

      • Ron Murphy

        Geoffrey, doing this dispensation, the one we live in now, under grace, there is no difference between Jew or Gentile as far as salvation issues are concerned. Only in race this there a difference. Not until after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled does this dispensation change. At that time not before shall the Jews eyes be opened, Roman 11:25. Jesus plainly said, that the Gentiles shall tread Jerusalem, until that time is complete. So the abomination that starts tribulation is just after the start of said treading, Luke 21:20. Revelation11:2 tells us how long that treading will last. My Question to you is, How long will you resist the word of God?

        Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
        Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

        This does not change, until the Gentile times are fulfilled, when the Jews are accepting Jesus as Messiah as a whole, all will be saved, Romans 11:26.

  • Pingback: Our Top 5 Reasons Why Matthew 24 Cannot Be Talking About The Rapture Of The Church | Walker Ministries | Virginia Beach, VA()

  • Phyllis

    Thank you so much for these messages. It has helped me understand
    the difference between the rapture and the second coming. Also have been
    thinking that the New Testament was talking to the church only. Clarified so
    much for me.
    Thank you again and God bless you for your work.

    • Amen! Remember, the three groups are THE JEWS & ISRAEL, THE CHURCH, and THE GENTILES. Once you identify who God is addressing, everything else falls in place!

  • eddie santana

    I agree. Matt. 24 is post rapture.

  • Deborah

    Because of this whole discussion about dispensationalism, I remember back to the day I first heard and completely embraced the concept. I had been saved for only a short time (less than 3 months) and pursued by Pentecostals and Charismatics as this was during the Jesus Movement of the early 70’s. I was so confused because they caused me to completely doubt my new relationship with God. When the Word was rightly-divided and adequately explained to me, it was almost as enlightening as being born-again. I knew right away what Paul meant when he prayed that the eyes of our understanding be enlightened–Ephesians 1:18. That correct approach to understanding the Scriptures has been my guide for nearly 46 years.

  • Geoffry, I have recently finished publishing a book entitled: Matthew 24. The theme of the book is that Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 are not about end-time prophecy as is being proclaimed today. Took 46 years of study to produce it, but it was worth it.
    I would like to send you an e-novel copy if you could provide me with an email address? A book copy is available on Amazon or Tate Publishing in Oklahoma.
    My book actually begins with the challenge you begin with in this article with your quoting of Matthew 23:39. In the verse Jesus refers to a COMING that is not seen with the eyes but is one which is proclaimed as Jesus says with the mouth, “You (Jews) shall see me no more till you SAY,’Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'”. Jews will never see Jesus as Messiah until they proclaim He is. So are Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 really only about the destruction of the city, the temple and religious observance as practiced by the Jews, or do they cover more than that?
    Bob

  • JOANN

    Geoffrey, I thank you for these articles. There is SO much argumentiveness over the Rapture and Second Coming! We do need to rightly divide God’s Word in applicable dispensations, ask for & receive Holy Spirit guidance of the Word, discern & refuse the path of replacement theology…and when all else is said & done…be ready to be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus! I remember years ago hearing that would be some supposed “evidence” literally dug from the earth to “prove beyond doubt” that Paul’s teaching on something in particular was false doctrine. I have been wondering if the camp who refuses to believe in the Rapture will try to manufacture “evidence” such as to call Paul’s Rapture teaching as heresy. I am sure that God (all Three in One) are saddened by all the arguing…and satan loves it because it keeps us divided and keeps us from focusing on pointing others to Christ Jesus…before it’s too late for them! Thank you for clear expression and for praying for all who need Yeshua Jesus Christ! JOANN WILSON

  • Suez

    The page is acting up again. I was going to post and it had someone elses name and email in my boxes….:(

  • Allan Rowley

    Christianity id deception, check the site: “Foundation of Deception” if you want to know the truth and be saved.
    Dispensationalism was an invention of Scoffield who also pushed pre tribulation rapture. It is all anti-semitism to the core.
    You can not allegorise Scripture. The Bible was written as a Book.
    The Messiah said in Matt 19:6 and 15:24 He came for the “lost tribes of Israel,”
    A gentile can be grafted into the Hebrews if He follows their laws and trusts the Messiah (Romans 11 and Rev 12:17).
    The Christian church fell away probably 100 years ago when they accepted liberalism and false preaching such as “prosperity preaching.”
    Christianity is a religion, the Messiah hated religion. It all began with Constantine back in 321AD who hated the Hebrews and the Hebrew laws (Torah). He was the one who changed the Hebrew Names into Greek god names.
    It will be interesting when the Messiah returns, those shouting the Greek god “Jesus” against those shouting His Hebrew Name, “Yahushua” or “Yahuweh,” who will join Him in the air when He returns, you really want to take that risk?
    Believe me, “blessed hope” does not mean “rapture,” even a 10 year old could tell you that. Anyone can “interpret” Scripture. The Messiah did not abolish Hebrew law, He fulfilled the law. Many times it tells us to obey the law, including the Messiah in John 14:15. Read all of 1 John and then ask yourself if you think you really are saved? Best humble yourself daily and ask forgiveness of sin daily to even think of any possibility of salvation. The Messiah does not offer continual “grace”, you were brought to the Messiah by the God of the Bible, Elohim at a price. There is “no” cheap grace. If you want to continually sin intentionally, sorry, you are not saved, Hebrews 6:6 and 10:26-31. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked, you cannot make your own rules of getting into heaven. If we are the “Bride” then their are rules for meeting the Bridegroom, we need to follow them. Study the parable of the “Wheat and the tares,” who gets taken out? that is the answer! True believers join the Messiah when He returns at the Feast of Trumpets, “in the air” and spend 7 days with Him until the Feast of Atonement when the Messiah rules from Jerusalem. True believers will not come under the Messiah’s wrath but are persecuted by the wrath of Satan. No where in the Bible does it tell us believers will escape Satan’s wrath.
    We are in the last days, watch out for “false preaching, easy salvation”, believe me it just is not going to happen. Tribulation or testing is to ween out the luke-warm believers. Blessings, study to find the truth, because your soul is at stake here.

    • matai james

      Amen my bro. The law was given to man not just the Jew. The law of God(the 10 commandments) is still binding. Moses wrote his laws on a book. God write hsis laws on2 tables of stones and whatever God says stands FOREVER.

    • Andrew A

      Really should read about what your are criticizing rather then take what other people give you. Currently half way through “Dispensational truth” and it is like nothing you are trying to describe it as.

      As for the rest Ephessians Chater 2 verse 8-16 is the Holy Spirits response to Gentiles should be made Jews to be saved by Chirst.

      8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

      9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

      10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

      11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

      12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

      13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

      14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

      15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

      16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

      That is not saying for Gentiles to become Jews but for both Jew and Gentile through the blood of Jesus becomes one and something more the Church.

      I suggest you READ the entire Chapter and think carefully about the error you have made.

    • Marie

      After reading the article and all the comments, I was more edified by this comment than any other. The spirit in me was touched and agrees with your spirit. Hallelu “YAH” and blessed is His Name (Yashua).

  • eddie santana

    You guys that are peddling mid or post trib rapture, Thessalonians is very clear…the man of sin cannot be revealed until Him who now lets is taken out of the way.

    • John

      The passage in question, 2 Thessalonians 2:7,says “only the one restraining, until from midst/middle he becomes”. This can just as easily be interpreted to mean the one restraining the lawlessness(anomia) will do so until He steps aside. He doesn’t have to go anywhere. From other scriptures we know He, whether the Holy Spirit or Jesus, will still be present throughout the tribulation. I think Paul is referring to the reality that God restrains evil to a certain extent until, for whatever reason(usually the continued moral decay of a group of people) God just lets evil have a much greater hold in order to lead others to repentance. No rapture in view in this verse. I think this is exactly what’s happening in America. At some point the Lord Jesus will destroy the antichrist by the epiphany of his coming. There seems to be only one second coming for believers- at the end of the antichrist’s mission. That seems to be Paul’s point in this passage since some were thinking the second coming had already occurred and they had been left. I believe this is the message for the church: he’s not coming until the antichrist(the lawless one?) is revealed and has completed his assignment.

      • I am studying the early church fathers, and it is interesting how they taught that it was a falling away from righteousness / the true faith on the part of the church that paved the way for the coming of the Anti-Christ.

  • Steve K. Newman

    Please see Matthew 24:29-31/ 1 Corinthians 15:51-58/ 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18/ Revelations 11:15-19. All refer to the last trumpet being blown, Which would mean the rapture will take place during the mid part of the tribulation. After the two witnesses are resurrected…

    • teresa

      Totally different trumpets…:) the rapture comes as a thief in the night, but if we follow your logic, we can all easily figure out when it will be. Thise trumpets are different.

      • Suez

        Teresa, with all due respect, you need to do a study of the term Thief in the night, and what it means. As you throw it out there, with no knowledge of what it means…..It means we don’t know exactly when he is coming. Like a thief, it will take people by surprise! That is what it means. It does NOT mean, no one will hear it, as you have been falsely taught. Do a study on it yourself, and stop listening to man….Do these scriptures look or sound like it will be a secret thing??? Your miss taught big time. Look up the words thief in the night and study these two scriptures. These are the only two in the Bible that talks about the Thief in the night! And they have NOTHING to do with a silent rapture!!! Nothing, quite the opposite. So, I would suggest you gather more knowledge, so you don’t look quite so foolish, in your comments dear. 2Pe_3:10 But the DAY of the Lord will come as a THIEF in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
        1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
        1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
        1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

        Another very important thing to do when you study. Always read the verses, before and after the verses your studying. Stay with the subject matter. Don’t just grab one out of the middle and go on that, or you will get the wrong meaning of it. I’m not putting you down, as I was the same as you, until the Lord taught me the correct way. I tell you in love, so you can correctly study scripture. Also do a study of the day of the Lord. It may be quite helpful for you also. Do you have a bible program on your computer? You can just type in the word or words, and then all those scriptures will come up. It is a great way to study. I would suggest King James Pure Bible Study program. Just type it in, and it should come up. 🙂 A real smart friend of mine wrote and designed it. 🙂

        Act_2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Take care Theresa! Please study this out for yourself!

        • Ron Murphy

          Amen Sue! They cry Peace and safety once they get rid of us, then they see Jesus and run and hide from him and his wrath coming. Those left of us, will be changed and taken alive. But the world will be looking for the hurting of the earth and sea, Rev 7:2-3.

          Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth:

          Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea:

          • Ron Murphy

            We are seen in heaven in the middle of this, Rev 7:9-15

          • Ron Murphy

            Hearts failing for looking after those things( hurting of the earth) coming upon the earth. Luke 21:26 and then they shall see Jesus gathering his elect. And they shall hid and mourn, because his wrath has come. We are taken and God’s wrath is ready, all after tribulation. No other place is there any other rapture. This is it. The 2nd resurrection and judgment is upon the earth. The white throne is upon the earth.

        • Actually, a wrong interpretation of ‘the thief in the night’. The apostles followed Jesus’ teaching, and if you look at each example, the issue is not so much the not knowing as righteous vs unrighteous living. Check it out – even the brief mentions in Revelation are always associated with the issue of righteousness (clean linen in the language of Revelation).

          • Suez

            Really? Actually right interpretation. You really need to stay in the context of the verses sir. Start at the beginning of the chapter and read down, stay with the subject matter at hand. It’s talking about the end time, and Christ return. Stay out of men concordances. Don’t add to or take away from the Lord word! 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
            1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
            1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
            1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
            You look it up. Thief means:κλέπτης
            kleptēs
            klep’-tace
            From G2813; a stealer (literally or figuratively): – thief. Compare G3027.
            Night means: nux
            noox
            A primary word; “night” (literally or figuratively): – (mid-) night.
            Stay with the context, of what the subject is. 🙂 Just saying.

          • Suez

            @Nathanael I’m not sure if I owe you a apology or not. The more I read your above comment, the more confused I get…LOL If I took wrong what you were saying, then I apologize. I’m still shaking my head, trying to wrap my mind around it. I know I’m in agreement with you on most everything else, so maybe I’m miss-understanding something here…sorry. 🙂

          • Suez. I should have made myself clearer. If you look at all of the parables in the gospels or the examples in the letters of ‘thief in the night’ type langague and look at the context, then issues of righteous living vs unrighteous living are involved. To those living unrighteously, the day will come as a thief in the night – I’m going from memory here, but the master returns unexpectedly and it catches unawares the steward beating and abusing the other servants etc. Use biblegateway or similar and just search for each use and look at the context and see – it’s there in one form or another – the issue of the need for righteous living.

    • Ron Murphy

      Steve, You are partly right about the timing of the rapture. It is at the time of the two witnesses. They go first and the earthquake that follows, I believe is the rapture quake. But this is not the same as tribulation. The 2 witnesses are taken at the end of tribulation. Tribulation is only 42 months long, then God’s wrath follows, in which we are taken just before it starts. Luke is the best source for this understanding. Jesus said their hearts will fail for fear of the things coming upon the earth. This is when the rapture happens, They see Jesus and know his wrath has come, and they mourn because of him. They run and hid at this time, Rev 6:15-17, because they know what is coming, the 7 trumpets of God’s wrath to hurt the earth & sea, Rev 7:2-3. Rev 8:1-2 are the hurting of the earth and sea, these 7 trumpets.

    • Stephen

      Steve, when you have 62 different trumpets, it would be a bit silly to say that one of them is the same as another, especially when one is the trumpet blown by an angel, and the other is a trumpet of God.

    • I think you have missed a crucial point here, and so are missing the fundamental contradiction in your position.

      Steve Newman. You (quite correctly I think) believe that all of the trumpets in these passages are one and the same, but if it is all mid-trib, then how do you explain that the Matthew 24 passage is absolutely explicit on a contrary timing ‘After the Tribulation of those days….’.

      So naturally, you will raise the issue of Revelation 11 being in the middle of the book of Revelation – but that is not the same as being in the middle of the Tribulation.

      If you realize that Revelation is fundamentally a book of Jewish-style apocalyptic literature, which will quite typically cover an issue or time period and then go back and cover some or all of it from another angle, then it become clearer.

      You will find a basic pattern where lightning, thunder and earthquakes are all mentioned together (and in all but one case, hailstorms) repeated in Revelation. I strongly suggest that this is the marker for the moment just before Jesus is revealed at his second coming.

      It comes at the end of the series of 7 seals for instance at 8.5 (and notice it comes at the breaking of the 7th seal, and after the breaking of the 6th seal in 7.12-14, which talks of the dissolution of the heavens in some form, with the sun and moon darkening (just as Jesus said in Matthew 24 would happen after the tribulation and before his second coming / rapture – check it out) and when everyone flees to the mountains to hide from the face of the Father and Jesus in the day of their great wrath.

      Then after the 7 trumpets it appears again in 11.15-19 (and notice that the angel says now the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and his Christ, something that makes no sense if the rapture is happening mid or pre tribulation as in fact the kingdoms of the world are in rebellion against Jesus under the anti-Christ – additionally the elders say that now God has assumed his power and begun to reign, that it is time to judge the dead and reward God’s servants, and to destroy those who destroy the earth – or possibly land, meaning Israel – again, these are all things that Jesus does / that occur at his second coming).

      Then there is another section that ends up with 7 bowls of the plagues of God’s wrath that are poured out in very quick succession right at the end before we see the same pattern in 16.17-21 – along with a shout from the throne of God saying ‘It is finished’ there is thunder, lightning, a huge earthquake and horrific hailstorms as God destroys Babylon.

      Then chapters 17-18 focus on the nature of that Babylon that is being destroyed at the moment of God’s wrath, and then it describes the return of Jesus in chapter 19. So Revelation 11 does not mean a pre-trib rapture, it means a post-trib rapture, in accord with Matthew 24.

  • eddie santana

    Think about it…in this dispensation, the Holy Spirit is what empowers the church. When the Holy Spirit leaves, it will either leave the church powerless, or the church will leave with the Holy Spirit. In the tribulation, there is a new dispensation, where it will be just like in the Old Testament, where the Holy Spirit worked sporadically, despite how other scriptures are interpreted.

    • Suez

      Please give scripture showing that is says, the Holy Spirit is leaving??? Thanks

  • matai james

    The Christian church has to keep the SABBATH, the sabbath was never done away with. Jesus kept the Sabbath this was his custom luke 4:16. And theSabbath was made for man and not man ffor the sabbath. The sabbath has been there since creation and Adam and Eve were not Jews so its not the sabbath of the Jew. The law if GOD is still binding it was NEVER DONE AWAY WITH.

  • rick deacon

    Jesus I’d the Lord of the sabbath. Christians are the temple of the Lord. The inhabits us so we can esteem one day above another or all days to the Lord.

  • rick deacon

    Just like Mr. Grider said
    You have to divide the word rightly.As who is being talked to. Keeping the Sabbath is for the Jews. Go to site called got questions it has some very satisfying answers. Like for this one and the tithe in Malichi.the

  • Jeff

    Those who are arrogant enough to believe that they are “good” enough to miss out on the tribulation are not reading their bibles.
    THOSE WHO ELEVATE COMMENTARIES AND PHILOSOPHY ABOVE THE BIBLE WILL BE SADLY MISTAKEN AND ARE VERY DECEIVED! THE WORD OF GOD IS OUR ONLY SALVATION! There is not a denomination, pastor, church, nor any other means whereby we are saved besides the word of God! STUDY GOD’S WORD AS IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT. FORGET ALL THE PRECONCEIVED OPINIONS YOU HAVE BEEN FORCED AND HYPNOTICALLY LED TO BELIEVE AND START YOUR OWN BIBLE STUDY THE WAY JESUS TOLD ALL HIS CHILDREN TO STUDY IN JOHN 16!
    Don’t even consider rebuking me and standing on some non biblical dogmas like the “secret rapture THEORY” WHICH IS A MAN MADE FALACY AND YOU WHO BELIEVE IN SUCH NONSENSE WILL BE LOST!

    • Danny

      Jeff, I will respect your wish not to be “rebuked”, suffice it to say I don’t recall any pre-trib rapture proponents claim that it is the “good” who will be raptured anymore than believers would claim that it is the “good” who are being saved. Ours is not a righteousness of our own, but a righteousness from above.

  • matai james

    Read matt 5:17-48 and you will see what Jesus say about his law. How can u know what sin is without the law? Read Romans 3:20,21 and 1stJohn 3:4 .The 10 commandments will be there as long as there is a heaven and an earth.

  • eddie santana

    You go on believing like you will. I have no great desire to get others to believe my particular way other than getting saved. Just live like Christ is coming any minute is the most important thing. Christ says He’s coming as a thief in the night. If Christians are not ready, then shame on them.

  • Ron Murphy

    Geoffrey, How can Matthew 24:44 be for the church when Jesus was speaking to the Jews? Did you not say Matthew 24 was to just the Jews. You can’t have it both ways, my friend. Unstable in all his ways!

    • Stephen

      Are there not Jews that are part of the church? Are the apostles Jews and also part of the church?

      • Ron Murphy

        Stephen, Evidently, they don’t think so. They seem to have forgotten how to rightly divide that part. Paul told us what you are saying. And He made it clear there is no difference, under this dispensation. Jesus said, I’m the door and by no other means can a man enter in. So law keepers would have to obey the law to perfection, if they are saved that way. And act that has never been done. Nor ever will be by mortal man. Saved Jews are disciples of Christ, He was referring to his disciples in Matthew 24. That is all that follow Christ. They say the church was not even there, in Matthew 24. I say good point, so we must realize these were follows of Jesus, since then they have grown from just a few to many, but we all must follow Christ and his words. Paul did!

        • Raelene

          Revelation chapter 5 explains who those that are sealed are. It is not all of the Jews/Israel who are on the earth during the time of Jacob’s trouble. And those 144,000 will be raptured during that time as well as the two witnesses who will be resurrected from the dead after 3 days.

          • Raelene

            Sorry. I wasn’t replying to your comment. I don’t know what happened.
            But I do have a different reply to your comment.
            The born again believers of this dispensation are neither Jew nor Greek any longer. The Bible says we become one NEW man and are the Body and Bride of Christ.
            There are 3 separate entities now which are Jews, Gentiles and the Body of Christ.

  • Stephen

    Geoffrey, while I agree that the points you made are not talking about the Rapture, but are talking about Israel and the Second Coming (Episunogoges), I disagree with the statement that the Rapture is not mentioned in Matthew 24.

    Have a look at verses 40 and 41. When Jesus starts discussing one being taken and one left, and to be prepared because He will come at a time when we don’t expect Him, He has to be talking about the Rapture.

    The Greek word for taken is “Paralambano.” It literally means taken closely to oneself. Jesus uses the same word in John 14:3 when He says that He goes to prepare a place for us and He will return and take (paralambano) us to this place.

    God bless.

    • The Rapture of the CHURCH is not the only rapture mentioned in the New Testament. There IS a rapture in Matthew 24, but it is not of the Church.

      • Ron Murphy

        Then who’s rapture, is Matthew 24 referring to, because the Jews are not raptured. They are all saved at the end of tribulation, at the fulfillment of the Gentiles time and they all do not leave the earth and neither can they be changed or redeemed. So your logic is way off. They must bare children to fill the nation that serves the kingdom of God. Study Eze. chapters 40-48, during the kingdom age. They are sealed so they can endure God’s wrath, Rev 9:5.

        • Did you even READ my article? Matthew 24 is ALL about the Jews in the Tribulation. And you need to read this as well: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=32728 Let me know when you have had time to read and digest it and we can talk. Thanks!

        • Raelene

          Revelation chapter 5 explains who those that are sealed are. It is not all of the Jews/Israel who are on the earth during the time of Jacob’s trouble. And those 144,000 will be raptured during that time as well as the two witnesses who will be resurrected from the dead after 3 days.

          • Ron Murphy

            Raelene, Rev chapter 5 are the 24 elders which stand before God’s throne and then there are soul under the altar, also from Stephen until now, when the great tribulation period starts more will be added. But the 24 elders are the prophets of old that gave their lives up for their testimonies. That is why they are redeemed. Redeemed of the life taken, they are given a new one. If you will count the prophets there are 24 of them in total that was killed in Jerusalem.
            Now concerning the 144,000 They are never raptured because they are the first fruit and they can not be changed, but most stay mortal. They are the first fruits of the new nation to serve God and they shall live and die of old age and raise their children near the kingdom of God, with the water flowing from the river of life, through their lands, and they shall be a blessed people because they know the Lord and can go up to Jerusalem to worship him. The raptured saints that suffer for Christ in great tribulation will be part of the new kingdom of God , which is in Jerusalem, Jerusalem will belong to them. The lands around Jerusalem will be for the Jewish remnant. The river will flow east and west from Jerusalem from Christ’s throne. The Jews will own the land until it flow into the two seas. The Jew will live to be very old and his childred as well. They will all follow the Lord and serve the kingdom.
            Now it’s positive proof the Jews are not raptured. Rev 6:12 is the same as Matthew 24:29, so Rev 6:12 is after tribulation.
            Rev 6:12 being after tribulation, then what are the sealed Jews doing here during God’s wrath after Rev 6:12.
            The 5th plague of God’s wrath.

            Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

            Now, why are the 144K, virgins?

            Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

            It is because God wants purity for the new kingdom to start on. Redeemed here means, choice for this calling as all other men where excluded, including the great number of Jews that perish in the wrath of God,

            Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
            Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
            Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
            Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
            Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

          • Raelene

            I’m sorry. My comment used the wrong reference in Revelation. It isn’t Rev. 5.

            REVELATION 6 GOD’S WRATH BEGINS
            15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
            REVELATION 7 THE 144,000 ARE SEALED
            2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
            REVELATION 14 THE 144,000 ARE RAPTURED
            1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

            Ron, your theory and understanding is interesting, but I prefer to take the word of God as it is plainly written and not read anything into it. Unless the Bible tells us it is figurative we should should just take it at face value and pay attention to EVERY word. We also need to follow the law of first mention of a word or phrase.
            Using the law of first mention with words or phrases in the KJV will give us the meaning of those words or phrases throughout the Bible.

          • Bro. Nick Nicholas

            Raelene – You made the totally sound Biblically comment –
            ‘… but I prefer to take the word of God as it is plainly written and not read anything into it.’

            Please – ALWAYS DO!
            I was led by a ‘brother-in-Christ Jesus’ to read
            1 Kings 13:1-32, KJV – there is a profound Biblical lesson that we should all learn from ‘the young prophet’ –
            “… let God be true, but every man a liar …”
            (Romans 3:4, KJV)

            I would also recommend listening to to the very humbling Biblically sound message –
            Ten Shekels And A Shirt by Paris Reidhead (FULL SERMON)
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDQC45_RA2c

            I have several times – Bro. Nick
            .

  • Stephen

    Mid-trib and post-trib Rapture theories have very serious problems. The first being that if there is no pre-trib Rapture, then Jesus lied to His church on at least 3 occasions! That a huge problem for me! I just don’t have the guts to call my Lord and Savior a liar!! Do any of you mid and post tribbers have the guts to do that?

    • Ron Murphy

      If you believe in pretrib you are calling him a liar, my friend. Jesus plain told you, that you will not suffer his wrath. But he never said you will not be in tribulation. On the contrary, he said you are appointed to tribulation, just as all and every sing & le one of the early church was. They had their great tribulation, and yet they obtain the promise of the resurrection. That resurrection takes place at the sounding of the trumpet. Matthew 24:30 , Cor. 15:52, and 1 Thess 4:16, all after that suffering we are appointed to.

      Php 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
      Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

  • James

    These (5) reasons are flimsy at best. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 when the rapture is going to happen. It’s no irony that He also tells us (3) times in this one chapter to “not be deceived”…………wake up people!!!!!!

    • Great! If my 5 reasons are, as you say, “so flimsy”, why don’t you pick any one of them and refute it from the word of God for me? Would love to see what you come up with, if anything at all. Thanks!

      • Ron Murphy

        Geoffrey, does that invite to refute apply to all?

      • Yes, still waiting…

        • So let me do this section by section.
          +++++

          JESUS STARTS THE CHAPTER OFF BY SAYING THAT THE TEMPLE WILL BE TORN DOWN TO THE GROUND AND DESTROYED. AND THEN REBUILT AGAIN.

          “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Matthew 24:3 (KJV)

          In the 24th chapter of Matthew, the apostles come together to ask Jesus about His return, which we know to be the Day of the Lord, and the end of the world. Jesus, as it turns out, has plenty to say on this subject and uses no parables. He tells them plainly what will happen in the time of the end. Many Christians, who love to apply the entire New Testament to the Church alone, read this chapter and try to make this about the Rapture of the Church. But that will not work, Matthew 24 is not about the Church which didn’t even exist on the day that they asked Jesus these questions.

          ++++++

          Right here, Geoffrey, you start with the typical dispensationalist / pre-trib tactic of assuming or asserting the position you are trying to ‘prove’. You assume and assert that the church didn’t even exist on that day, because that is what your dispensationalist indoctrination has taught you. But that’s not what Matthew teaches. Jesus was teaching his disciples who were the founding members, the foundation of what we call the church, including Peter, of whom Jesus had said in chapter 16 ‘on this rock, I will build my church’. Now sure, that is future tense, but check out chapter 18 were Jesus teaches his disciples about disputes, and says – present tense – that if private remonstration doesn’t work ‘take the case to the church’. But even if we take your assertion that the church only existed from Acts 2 on, and therefore these two earlier passages must be referring to the church in the future, why can’t Matthew 24 be exactly the same, talking about the church that would exist in just two months time? Jesus is a bit confused if he is teaching about the church many chapters before, yet suddenly can’t be talking about the church when he is similarly talking to his disciples, don’t you think?

          ++++++

          • Dr Bob Chapman Ph.D, D.Min, MA, BA

            Hi Nathanael,

            One must not read Matthew 24 without also reading Luke 21 and Mark 13 as they are the same account, except Matthew 24 was to a Jewish audience and Luke 21 and Mark 13 were to non Jews.

            There were only four disciples who Jesus communicated with about this matter as Mark states, Mark 13:3.

            Mark and Luke make no mentioned about “the end” as Matthew does because “the end” referred to by Matthew is not the end of the world KOSMOS but AION which means; “a state of things making an age or era, an indefinite time, a dispensation”. Such an “end” only mattered to the Judeans. If the word KOSMOS was used it would refer to the end of the world and all peoples. So “the end” the disciples asked about was the Hebrew genealogical cessation and the Hebrew religious cessation as John the Baptist, Jesus and the disciples proclaimed.

            It is also worth nothing that the only “coming” Jesus had mentioned to the four disciples in the context of the discussion about the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, and which they only asked about, is recorded in Matthew 23:39 and refers to Jews who acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah and that He has come as such. If they, the Judeans, “say” (confess) with their mouth that Jesus is the Messiah they will see Him as He is and also in eternity. If they don’t they will be lost.

            Bob

        • “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” – Matthew 24:44 (KJV)

          Matthew 23 ends with Jesus talking about His Second Coming, and Matthew 24 continues this exact same theme so we have harmony with the context. In our earlier article on the Rapture of the Church, we explained the difference between the Rapture and the Revelation. If you have not yet read that article, please do so before proceeding with this teaching on Matthew 24.

          “For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Matthew 23:39 (KJV)

          Jesus has something very important for the apostles to understand, and He begins to speak prophetically. He is giving a prophecy, not of the time in which they were living (though you can draw some parallels), but of a time far into the future. The time of Jacob’s Trouble that Jeremiah spoke about:

          “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

          ++++++

          Right here, you neglect an important distinction. Yes, Jesus did start talking about his second coming in Matthew 23, but what was the context, and who was his audience? He had been talking about the hypocrisies of some Jewish leaders, and then wept because Jerusalem has not known of the day of its visitation, and he completes his excoriation with the judgement. Look at v36 – where Jesus makes quite clear that the judgement would fall on ‘this generation’. In other words, he emphatically was giving a prophecy about the time in which they were living, although the results would extend far beyond in time. So in chapter 23, Jesus was talking to the Jews, as Jews. In Matthew 24, the audience is solely his disciples (yes, at that time all Jews), who were his church. So to claim that therefore this passage can’t refer to the church is ridiculous, and to try and claim that because Matthew 23 ends with the second coming therefore Matthew 24 can’t refer to the church is not rightly dividing the word of truth because you ignore the very significant difference of who Jesus was speaking to, and you ignore the explicit statement that Jesus said that it was about his own generation. In other words, your commitment to the dogma of dispensationalism causes you to twist and distort the teaching of Jesus.

          ++++++

          Jacob’s name was changed to Israel, as in the nation of Israel. Jacob’s trouble has no application to the Church which would be formed later in Acts 2. Jacob’s trouble is about the Jewish people and the nation of Israel as they go through the time that Jesus Himself refers to as “great tribulation” that would have no equal in human history. Worse than the Russian pogroms, worse than the slaughter in South Africa, even worse than Hitler’s Holocaust in Nazi Germany. So with that, let’s look at our top reasons why Matthew 24 is not talking about the Rapture of the Church.

          #1: THE TIME PERIOD THAT JESUS TALKS ABOUT IS NOT THE DISPENSATION OF THE AGE OF GRACE OF THE CHURCH.

          All through Matthew 24 are scriptural time clues that we, as Bible believers, need to be aware of. In Matthew 24:13, Jesus says that whoever are the people who are alive and going through this time period, they are saved by a combination of faith and works. There is no Christian in our dispensation of the Age of Grace that needs to “endure until the end” to be saved. We are saved according to Ephesians 2:8,9, and kept saved according to Ephesians 1:13,14. There is nothing in Paul’s teachings that tell us to “endure” for salvation. Paul taught and preached the doctrine of Eternal Security. But, obviously, the people living in the time of Matthew 24 are not saved that way. Hence, this will be our number one reason why Matthew 24 is not talking about the Church and it’s soon-coming Rapture.

          “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
          “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV) – Church Age
          “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13,14 (KJV) – Church Age

          ++++++

          Here again, you assume the dispensationalist position to ‘prove’ it – circular arguments which are invalid. You also distort what Matthew 24 says. It never says anything about a mix of faith and works, but it does say something about faithfulness. As someone else has so aptly replied below when you challenged ‘still waiting’ (and I notice you haven’t managed to reply to any of his mostly excellent points), in fact there are many passages where Paul taught exactly the same thing – that believers have to endure to the end to be saved. So your ‘number one’ reason is lame and you not only distort what Jesus taught about the end-times (and do your readers a grave disservice when you do so), but you show your ignorance about what Paul actually taught, as you cling to particular dogmas about ‘assurance of salvation’, quite contrary to what both Jesus and Paul taught. For instance Jesus said that he would deny before his Father, those who denied him before men’, and similarly Paul taught in the one of the pastoral letters (2 Timothy I think) that if we (the believer) deny him, he will deny us. Thus your ‘Tribulation Age’ vs ‘church age’ distinction is totally falsified. You are not teaching according to the truth of Jesus and the apostles. We are not saved by works, but true salvation results in works, and in particular, we are called to remain faithful to Jesus in the suffering and apostasy of the last days.

          ++++++

        • #2: THE REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE HAS NO PRACTICAL SIGNIFICANCE FOR THE CHURCH

          Jesus starts the chapter off by saying that the Temple will be torn down to the ground and destroyed. This happened in AD 70. But interestingly, just a few verses later, He says that it’s back up and running again, and people are worshipping there. Not only that, Jesus says to “go and read the Prophet Daniel”, specifically Daniel 9:27, to see who else shows up at the rebuilt Temple in the end times. It’s the Devil himself! But guess what? Christians don’t have or need a “temple” because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. That’s the temple God has for Christians. So Matthew 24: 15 is our second reason why Jesus cannot be talking about the Church age.

          “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)” Matthew 24:15 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
          “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” 1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV) – Church Age

          ++++++

          Once again, you assume the dispensationalist position to ‘prove’ your point. According to Paul in 2 Thessalanians 2, there is a practical significance for the church – the same one that Jesus mentions here – that when the ‘man of sin’ commits blasphemy by enthroning himself in the Temple, the Gentile church (of which the Thessalonian church was mostly made up) will know that the day of the Lord is near. Paul is simply following and applying the teaching of Jesus here. Correction – whilst the devil will be the inspiration behind the desecration, it will be a man who commits the great sacrilege, the ‘man of sin’. Thus Paul shows that your 2nd reason is totally false and contrary to the teaching of both Jesus and the apostles. The apostles, who heard him, and Paul, who did not, but heard from the other apostles, taught the same thing. Ironically, the reason Paul gave for teaching in 2 Thessalonians was a false doctrine so like the pre-trib rapture lies – that the day of the Lord had already come. Paul taught them that it would not come until they – the church (and so still in the ‘church age’) – saw both the apostasy and the anti-christ seated in the Temple, thus utterly falsifying the pre-trib rapture position at this point. Once again, Geoffrey, you are badly distorting and perverting the word of God on this point, teaching the opposite of what the early church taught (the earliest church fathers also explicitly taught that the church would go through the tribulation and see the anti-christ desecrating the Jewish Temple, which had been destroyed by the time they wrote).

          ++++++

        • #3: THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH IS NOT ABLE TO CARRY OUT THE COMMAND TO FLEE INTO THE MOUNTAINS

          Right about Jesus shows the apostles about the Abomination of Desolation, He then says that the believers living in this future time period will be instructed to “flee into the mountains” and get out of Judea, which is to say Israel. Just like in our previous reason, this one also has no practical application for any Christian in the Age of Grace. First of all, only a minute fraction of born again Christians live in Israel, rendering this command meaningless to us. But it is still a command, and as such must be carried out. But by whom? Well, how about by all the Jews which has been brought back to Israel during the false 7 Year Peace Treaty engineered by the Antichrist? Now in this context, we have perfect harmony. If all the Jews in the world were regathered as the Bible says they will be in the end times, then they will all be there in Judea and able to carry out this command. This is the only way this verse has any doctrinal meaning. The people living in this time period are told to flee, Christians are told to “wait” for His Son from Heaven who gets us out before the Wrath comes. Huge Difference. Where do the Jews flee to? Why, they flee to the red rock city of Selah, Petra!

          “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” Matthew 24:16 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
          “And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.” Jeremiah 29:14 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
          “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thessalonians 1:19 (KJV) – Church Age

          ++++++

          Once again, Geoffrey, you are distorting to the truth. Firstly, Jesus was answering the questions that his Jewish disciples, who would become, if they weren’t already, the church’s foundation, had asked, which specifically had to do with the Temple. And don’t say, therefore it can’t be for the readers of the Gentile church – for a start, just look at the intense obsession amongst many – and especially of the pre-trib crowd about the Temple in prophecy and the efforts to rebuild it. More to the point, your claims of a contradiction between Jews / believers in Judaea being told to flee, whilst all believers are told to wait for the Son from heaven is a typical pre-trib tactic of creating false contradictions where there are none to try and prove their ‘two stage’ schema and alleged ‘church age’ via whatever other age. Let me give an example. Let me say that I told a child to ‘wait for me’ in the garden, but when the bees start to swarm, to run for the swimming pool, is that a contradiction that must mean there are two ‘ages’ in view, a ‘garden’ age, and a ‘bee-swarm / swimming pool’ age, and that I am talking of two different children? Of course not! Such an argument would be absurd – just as absurd as the one you are making here. The believers are told to flee at one specific set of political / religious circumstances in one location, but that has no contradiction with the universal need for believers to wait for the return of Jesus. And if you are assuming that 1 Thess 1.9 is talking about a rescue of the church before the Tribulation, you are obviously unaware of the fact that the word Paul uses for ‘wrath’ he always uses to mean eternal damnation in hell, one that starts on the day of judgement at the 2nd coming. It is also interesting to note that the apostles, in the oldest Christian document we have outside of the New Testament (and indeed likely older than much of the New Testament), the Didache, when they gave their instructions specifically for Gentile churches in the last days, applied all of the teaching of Matthew 24 to the Gentile church, except for the bits that specifically applied to Jews and Jerusalem – indeed, they make it quite clear that the Gentile church will go through the entire tribulation and that the rapture happens after the Tribulation at the 2nd Coming of Jesus. Go read it – it will be on the internet – Didache chapter 16, right at the very end of the document. What is also interesting is that when talking about the last days and the church during the tribulation, a number of the early church fathers did in fact suggest that the safest place for the church worldwide would be outside of the cities and in the hills and wilderness, sometimes vividly describing the church as eating herbs and grass of the field during the Tribulation – living rough.

          ++++++

          • Suez

            @Nathanael Lewis Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!! I love it all. I especially was excited that you mentioned, “Paul uses for ‘wrath’ he always uses to mean eternal damnation in hell, one that starts on the day of judgement at the 2nd coming.” The Lord showed me that a long time ago, but trying to convince pre-tribbers is not easy, but it is so there in your face, if you want to see it! I don’t know how people can miss it. All you have to do is stay with the subject at hand!!!

        • #4: THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE A SABBATH DAY, WE HAVE THE LORD OF THE SABBATH HIMSELF

          Moving on down in the chapter, we arrive at Matthew 24: 20, where another huge time clue awaits us. With the previously-mentioned fleeing still in the context, Jesus then says to pray that when you turn to run, that it’s not on the Sabbath day, which is the last day of the week, Saturday. Again, Christians were never given the command to worship on the Jewish Sabbath day, because we have the Sabbath Himself, Jesus Christ. Not just the “shadow” which is represented on the sabbath. Paul says we can worship on any day we choose, but like the Apostles in Acts 20:7, we usually come together on a Sunday, the first day of the week, for obvious reasons.

          “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:” Matthew 24:20 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
          “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” Colossians 2:16,17 (KJV)
          “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:7 (KJV)

          ++++++

          Again, this is a total red herring. Jesus was answering specific questions about the Jewish Temple, to believing and practicing Jews (as he himself was, and as Paul and the other apostles continued to be to their dying day), so naturally the Sabbath issue comes up. That does not mean that he was in any way teaching that there were no Gentile Christians at that time (and indeed, the pre-trib position entails there being mythical ‘Tribulation saints’ who were Gentiles at this point), so it is rather a bizarre argument to use anyway.

          ++++++

        • #5: THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH IS NOT GOD’S “ELECT”, THAT REFERS TO ISRAEL AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE

          Our last reason why Matthew 24 cannot be talking about the Rapture of the Church is as equally compelling as the previous 4 reasons. Jesus in verse 22 says that time of Jacob’s Trouble – the Great Tribulation – is so grievous that if He didn’t come and “cut it short” then not even the “elect” would be saved. His return to cut it short is what the Bible calls the Day of the Lord, turn to Revelation 19:14 to see where the Church is on that Day. God’s elect is not the Christian Church, according to the Bible the Jews and Israel are God’s elect. We started this teaching by talking about how many Christians just automatically broad-brush the entire New Testament with the “church stamp”.

          “For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.” Isaiah 45:4 (KJV)
          “And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.” Isaiah 65:9 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
          GOD WROTE THE BIBLE DISPENSATIONALLY, AND THAT’S HOW WE ARE TO READ, UNDERSTAND AND APPLY IT.

          ++++++

          Again a series of non-sequiturs which are only convincing to someone already brainwashed into the dispensationalist doctrine and dogma. For a start, Jesus never uses the term ‘Jacob’s trouble’, and secondly, there is no contradiction between the church going through Tribulation at the same time as Israel is afflicted. Indeed we should expect it, as people of the same God, opposed by the same enemy. The end of the ‘church age’ and the time of the ‘Tribulation age’ so called, are one and the same. Revelation 19.14 doesn’t mention the term ‘church’, it just mentions the armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen (the symbol of righteousness which is applied mainly to angels, and those who have been martyred, until it is given to the church only at the moment of Jesus’ return – which is odd, because in a pre-trib scenario, they have already been perfected in heaven for 7 years at this point!). So it could just mean angelic armies, of whom the believers go to join as they come down, but even if it is talking of the church here, they are revealed with Jesus to the world at his second coming (as it says in 1 John 3, when he appears we will be like him because we will see him as he really is – in other words, our true nature will be revealed to the world at the same moment His is made undeniably manifest to the world. Or as Paul puts it in Colossians 3 ‘When Christ, who is your life, is revealed to the whole world (only then) you will share in his glory’. Going back to that going up to join Jesus as he comes down, that is important because, you see, this is the meaning of the term Paul uses of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4 when it talks of meeting Jesus in the air. It was used when the citizens of a city went out to welcome a conquering hero or general or king and bring him back into their city – just like with Jesus on Palm Sunday.

          Let’s also deal with your utterly false distinction between the ‘elect’ and the church. Yes, the Old Testament does call Israel or the remnant of Israel ‘the elect’, but as someone below has pointed out, the term is used in the New Testament of both Jews / Israel and of the church / believers. A good many of the examples are from Romans, which is significant, because Romans is one place where dispensationalism goes desperately adrift. Romans was specifically written – if you understand the letter conventions of the day – on the issue of the relations between believing Gentiles and ‘unbelieving’ Jews, and it is interesting that Paul carefully calls both Israel and the church / believers ‘children of God’ – look at chapters 8 and 9 in particular – even as he is accounting for the current hardness of Israel. And it is precisely here that dispensationalism comes a cropper, because it is all about maintaining a hard distinction between the church and Israel, saying they have two different destinies and dispensations, which is the exact opposite of what Paul teaches in Romans (9-11 in particular). He teaches in chapter 11 the organic unity of Israel and the church, totally contrary to what I call the ‘chop-chop-shop’ hermeneutics and doctrines of dispensationalism. In fact, one of the earliest church fathers, Justin Martyr, called such false distinctions between Israel and the church heresy, and ‘blasphemy against the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’. Jesus said ‘by your fruit you shall know them’, and this applies to doctrine just as much to people. So when the dispensationalist doctrine goes directly against the teaching of Paul about the relation of Israel and the church, then that is fruit that shows the falsity of the root. But there is much more. Your final comments reveal the grievous deception and delusion engendered by your clinging to this doctrine – see below.

          ++++++

          The whole Bible is God’s revelation of Himself to us, from cover to cover. The overarching theme of which is the battle for the Kingdom, and the King for whom it has been prepared. Simply put, it’s all about Jesus Christ. to wit;

          “Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.” Hebrews 10:7 (KJV)

          God wrote the Bible dispensationally, and it must be read that way to to grasp it’s meaning. Many Christians are shocked when you tell them that Matthew, Mark and Luke were not written about or for the Christian Church from a doctrinal perspective. It was written to Jews waiting for a Kingdom on Earth, which was postponed, and to those who will be alive on Earth during the time of the Great Tribulation after the Rapture.

          But that’s a lesson for another day, hope this helps!

          ++++++

          No it does anything but help, because you are leading your readers astray and teaching doctrines designed by hell to destroy the destiny of millions.
          You claim that ‘God wrote the bible dispensationally and that is how we are to read, understand and apply it’ and that ‘it must be read that way to grasp its meaning’. This is exactly the wrong way round. God did NOT write the bible dispensationally, and to read it that way invariably results in distortions of the truth, and the biggest one of all is the one you are peddling here. Why can I say that with such certainty without going into a detailed demolition or dissection of dispensationalist doctrine? Simple. When a doctrine or tradition of men – in this case dispensationalism – causes you to do what the Pharisees did and use the traditions of men to nullify the word of God, then you know that you have a false doctrine. Jesus and the apostles (and the early church fathers) taught over and over that the church would go through the Tribulation and warned their hearers /readers again and again of the need to stay faithful in persecution and not fall away, but here is a false doctrine that teaches the opposite – that the church need not worry because a ‘loving Groom’ won’t let harm come to his bride and will zap them out of suffering (despite the fact that Jesus and the apostles taught that if we would want to share in Jesus’ glory then as disciples we should also share in his suffering) – then it is utter deception! As Paul said in Acts ‘To enter the Kingdom of God we must go through many Tribulations’.
          More, when that doctrine results in someone blandly declaring such deceptive statements as the following that you finish with, then alarm bells should be ringing loud and long :
          ‘Matthew, Mark and Luke were not written about or for the Christian Church from a doctrinal perspective. It was written to Jews waiting for a Kingdom on Earth, which was postponed, and to those who will be alive on Earth during the time of the Great Tribulation after the Rapture.’

          Let’s just look at the utter, utter absurdity of this. Matthew, Mark and Luke (why not John, by the way?) were not written for the Christian church? Hello???!!!! Wake up! Jesus came to build his church. He did so through his teaching as mediated through the apostles and their writings, what we know as the Gospels and the letters and the New Testament. Jesus preached that the Kingdom of heaven will come through him and his disciples, the church. He did teach that in the face of rejection, his kingdom would act like leaven in bread, secretly infiltrating the world, until the final manifestation on the last day of this age. In these same gospels that you claim were not written for the Christian church, Jesus taught his disciples what they were to teach the church – including the Gentiles (see Matthew 28). How ridiculous to claim they were not written for the church! According to you and dispensationalists, God chose to give his church a bunch of gospels that weren’t really for them, but that were meant for thousands of years later for a completely different group of people, something that would only be understood in the 18th or 19th Century by some new doctrine that was unknown in the church before then. Barmy! Bonkers! What an insult to God’s intelligence and ability to make himself understood (perspicuity of Scripture). It also demonstrates a severe misunderstanding about the Kingdom. Yes, it is to be the kingdom of heaven come to earth, and that is precisely why the distinction in dispensationalism between the alleged heavenly destiny of the church and the earthly destiny of Israel is so dangerous, because it divides what should be kept together, as well as, in the case of modern dispensationalism, deluding the church into thinking they will escape the very suffering Jesus warned them to prepare for! No wonder the early church fathers called such a view heresy and blasphemy!

          So Geoffrey, I want to challenge you and warn you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to abandon this deceptive doctrine and come to the true teaching of Jesus and the apostles and the church about the last days, because if you and your fellow dispensationalists continue to teach these demonic lies that twist and pervert the word of God, you run the grave risk of ruining your own faith, and leading astray and to destruction millions when suddenly the Tribulation falls on them and they have not been prepared because you have negated by dispensational traditions of man the warnings of our Lord and Saviour and his apostles in Matthew 24 and other passages where he urgently warned us to prepare for such suffering and opposition. Come back to the true faith and teaching of Jesus and the apostles, I beg of you, in Jesus name.

          • Suez

            Amen, and Amen. Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
            I truly fear for those leading flocks, teaching false doctrine…:( May they start praying for the Lord to open their eyes, to his truth, not the lies of men!!!

  • On your previous post about the Pre-Trib Rapture position, I referred to an alternative scenario that is clearly Biblical for anyone willing to investigate with an open mind and open Bible going through the 4-Part series. There are many more points addressed in this ‘Post-Tribulation, Pre-Wrath’ apologetic that are worthy of prayerful consideration.

    When we find ourselves still here as the Antichrist gains control of the world economy, the apostate One-World church system, and expands greatly the brutal beheading of ALL Jews and ALL Christians worldwide- then we can talk about the error of the Pre-Tribulation position. I go into detail as to how the words ‘tribulation’ and ‘wrath’ are ABSOLUTELY distinctly different in the original languages- and mutually exclusive… ‘Tribulation’ in Scripture is always the persecution of the believers by satan and his seed, and the corrupt world system. ‘Wrath’ is clearly (with respect to GOD) Holy Anger that results in the Divine Judgments which begin in Revelation 6 and NOT before! The seals opened by the LORD are NOT the Wrath of GOD! Up to the sixth seal, every single description of woe describes satanic persecution! These are only allowed to fulfill the Last Days birth pangs that should lead many to repentance, and crying out to the LORD. In Rev. 6- Even those under the throne of GOD ask ‘How long, Oh LORD…?’ BECAUSE YHVH GOD’s Divine Judgments have NOT begun, though they ALL follow in sequence with the 7 Seal- 7 Trumpets, and 7 Bowls!

    Please do consider these essays (all linked at the bottom of each) beginning with: https://zionsgate.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/the-day-of-christ-and-the-day-of-the-lord/

  • The antichrist…eally?

    When was the antichrist ever a power to which the world must submit? John, in 1John chapters 2 and 4 clearly defines the antichrist as a movement or spirit of antagonism toward Jesus being the Messiah and that movement originated in and emerged from the church. So, anyone who does not accept or confess that Jesus was the Messiah of God is referred to by the Apostle as against Christ or antichrist, and it was Jesus who said, “He who is not for me is against me”.
    Therefore the “antichrist” incorporates all people of religious beliefs that are not Christian; including Jews who still don’t accept that Jesus was and is the Messiah.
    Now, if you want to refer a person etc, then refer to “the man of sin” who bewitches the world etc, as Paul did in 2Thessolians 2.

    • Danny

      yawn, okay, Robert.

  • Sorry I am keeping you up Danny with some logic and scripture quoting.

  • Tom Branch

    Hi,

    Love your site. It provides much insightful information concerning what’s going on in the world. I do respectfully disagree with your pre trib rapture position however.

    Regarding II Tim.2:15
    When you read the verse in the context of what Paul is saying to Timothy in this chapter you see that it has nothing to do with dividing the New Testament into teachings for Jews, teachings for Gentiles, and teachings for Christians. The subject that Paul is addressing is teaching sound doctrine period, based on correct understanding of the scriptures. Specifically, he is addressing the subject of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and salvation through Him. Someone might argue that this would include their belief that the New Testament is sectioned into specific teachings for Jews, Gentiles and Christians, but that’s a different argument because anyone can claim that this verse supports their particular view, whatever it is, since Paul is calling for correct understanding and teaching of the scriptures. So, in my opinion, to say that “Paul commands Timothy to teach people how to ‘rightly divide’ their Bibles into which of the three groups God is speaking to at any given time,” is a mistaken, narrow and biased interpretation based on pre tribulation belief. The subject here is correctly teaching what the bible says about the lineage, life, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

    • Suez

      @Tom Amen Tom, Amen!!!! It’s sad, people have to twist scripture to try and make their belief system work!!! 🙁

      • Tom Branch

        Amen to that, Suez.

    • But there ARE 3 groups of people in the Bible that God could be talking to. For example, we KNOW that Mark 16:17,18 cannot possibly be written to the Christian Church in our dispensation because we CANNOT PERFORM THEM. Can you get bit by a fully-loaded poisonous snake and live? Not likely. Can you drink poison and not die? No. Can you lay hands on people and see them ALL recover? Impossible. So if how I define “rightly dividing” is not how it actually is, then why are YOU UNABLE to perform the things in Mark 16 that Jesus said could be performed. Can you explain that one for me?

      • Tom Branch

        Hi,

        Now, it seems, we’re talking about something a little different here. We’re not discussing whether Paul is commanding people to divide the scriptures into teachings for 3 groups of people, but now it seems that we’re talking about whether God will work the same miracles through believers as He did in the days of the early church. First, in my opinion, God is capable of working the same miracles, if He chooses. It’s never us working miracles according to our power. It’s always God’s will and power working through us when it comes to miracles. So it’s never a question of whether we are capable. It’s according to God’s will, purpose and timing. I’ve read of miraculous things happening in the lives of Christians in these present times, especially in the accounts of some missionaries dealing with spiritual warfare in primitive cultures. But God chooses when and where these things happen according to His plan and purpose, not us. Perhaps in these last days, as persecution of believers is increasing, God will choose to work through His people more in this way, as He did in the days of the early church.

        • Ron Murphy

          Tom, I totally agree. When Christians, start getting persecuted, they will get serious with God. Dan 11:32 specifies this very thing in the midst of the tribulation period starting with the abomination, spoken of in Daniel 11:31. The Bible is clear to those, not hung up on a certain doctrine, that let God show them the truth and not reject it.

      • Ron Murphy

        Geoffrey, I totally disagree, Mark 16:17,18 is for the Church. he said go into all the world, Mark 16:15. It is because of lack of faith why you are not doing these things. For one thing many of these things are forbidden in most churches. We Pentecost practice these things. I practice these things. Though I don’t handle snakes in the church and frankly haven’t been to such a church nor desire to. Besides you are wrong about snake bits, they can be deadly but on the norm only 4% of untreated poisonous snake bites end up in death. That is not the case for some species though. I’ve picked up many copperheads and rattle snakes here, where I live. I know of a lot of people that got bit. I know so that handle them in church, but I don’t think God meant to tempt him, nor make a show of things.
        You ask why they can not be preformed? Not even Jesus being the Son of God, could heal where unbelief was. I’ve been healed many times. I’ve eat poisonous mushrooms, unknownly, but had faith and prayed about it before eating them. I have a lot of Knowledge of mushrooms today. I know what I eat. But I never even got sick. I felt the power of healing go through my body and cleanse me that day. The name of that mushroom is death angel. I eat it, rawl. But I knew I made the mistake, when God’s Spirit healed me. You can’t trust God and see him let you down.

    • Amen. Dispensationalism is bad enough, but the hyper-dispensationalism I’ve seen in some of the replies on this site are bonkers.

  • Ron Murphy

    Quote #1. “There is nothing in Paul’s teachings that tell us to “endure” for salvation.
    That is incorrect! Paul told us we must continue, which is the same as endure. Paul was not Jesus so you can not expect the same wording. You people try matching words. But no body uses the same words. Rightly divide.

    Rom_11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel

    1Ti_4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

  • Ron Murphy

    #2. Yes we don’t need a temple, but the Jews do and they will get it when their false messiah builds it for them. I believe that is part of the treaty. He will build the temple and get them started sacrificing once again. It’s in the middle of this 7 year treaty that he becomes the evil, and the tribulation begins. This has nothing to do with the church, but it all starts in Jerusalem and it spreads to every nation. Rev 13:7. Has nothing to do with the rapture at all.

  • Ron Murphy

    #3 Wrong. The Church is exactly who must flee Jerusalem. Really now, do you expect the Jews to flee? They don’t even acknowledge Christ. Jesus was talking to people that would listen. The saints must get out because the persecution will be severe. This is what makes Jerusalem desolate, when the abomination takes place. The word of God leaves the city. The word of God in the church saints must leave Judea or they will die at the hands of the antichrist. Making the city void of God’s word. The desolation. The two Prophets witness in Jerusalem to the Jews, This time period, Rev 11:2, 42 monthes.

  • Ron Murphy

    #4. All right agreed, but have you considered what will happen if the Jews, begin sacrificing and the mosaic law is brought back in order once again. Airports would be closed on Saturday and markets will be closed and getting anywhere would be chaos.

  • Ron Murphy

    #5 wrong, All God’s children are chosen. Paul was taking to us!

    Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
    Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

  • Ron Murphy

    The fact is Jesus was talking to the Jew because as you say The church was not there yet. But Jesus was taking to more than just the Jews. The was talking to his disciples or followers, if you prefer. And that is what the church became his disciples. The Church makes up most of his disciples. This is the work of the church to get others to follow Christ, to observe his words and follow the way he taught us, the way children of God should walk. The church is no more than a group of disciples following Jesus. All that he said is for us to follow. After all he is the only way!

    Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Keep in mind this is Christ after he ascended to the father, He clearly knew of his church, at this time, for sure. The Apostles went to all nations teaching the Gentiles, by Jesus’ commandment. Anyone saying not to follow Christ is antichrist!

  • cjmartel

    The Rapture theory was begun by John Darby, sometime in 1830, therefore it is a relatively new theory. Reading about Mr. Darby has proved enlightening, it seems that Mr. Darby was at odds with his current church and decided to start a new church, it was then that he developed the theory of the rapture. I find it very questionable that there is any truth to this theory at all, but what is worse, many Christians believe in the rapture and therefore have pretty much checked out of the ongoing spiritual battle, vainly believing that they will not have to suffer the tribulation. Jesus told us that if the tribulation period were not shortened, NONE would survive it, doesn’t sound much like a rapture to me. Also, we are told He will return in the end to gather his elect, doesn’t say anything about a return engagement to pick up the so called rapturees.

    • Raelene

      This article will disprove what you have said about Darby.
      “Although there are not a great number of writings on the end times from the early centuries of the church, there is no question that there was a belief in the Rapture among the church fathers and they taught it with strong language and scriptural support. In terms of the timing of the Rapture, the early church fathers placed it before the end times Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. The writings of early saints in the church are not Scripture and should not be treated on the same level of the Bible. These writings also do not “prove” that the pre-Great Tribulation Rapture or the Beginning and End Rapture series are correct. Only rightly divided Scripture from the Bible can determine if a specific belief is accurate or in error. But the writings of church fathers can serve as useful commentaries (just as we use Bible commentaries today in our studies) and certainly prove that the Rapture doctrine existed well before John Darby and has been a part of Christian belief since the earliest days of the Apostles.”
      http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

      • cjmartel

        Raelene,

        I will read the posting you provided, and I thank you for the thoughtful articulation of your ideas. That being said, Mr. Darby was the catalyst for the modern application of this doctrine, and that is why I penned him being the preeminent prognosticator. As for the ramifications, I believe that adherence to this theory has been over emphasized and people are in danger of not being engaged in spiritual matters, after all, if I am saved, God is going to call me up before the proverbial SHTF scenario takes place. I believe Jesus himself pointed out to the apostles that the tribulation will be cut short, if not, then no one would survive it, not even the elect. I look forward to your thoughts on this matter, thank you again for your input.

        • Raelene

          Thank you,cjmartel but I didn’t write what I posted. That’s why I put it in quotation marks.
          The time of Jacob’s trouble will last exactly 7 years according to the words of the Lord.
          One great problem many have in understanding who is being spoken of is the teaching that the body/bride of Christ is the elect. But the Bible tells us differently if we use the law of first mention.
          The first mention of “elect” is speaking of the the Messiah, I believe. And the second calls Israel God’s elect.
          Isaiah 42:1
          Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
          Isaiah 45:4
          For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
          And even in the epistles of Paul where he mentions the elect he is speaking about Israel (the remnant).
          I have been searching the scriptures to find proof that the New Testament Church is the elect and I haven’t found any.
          If we understand that fundamental fact it makes so many other things fall into place.

      • Actually, that article you linked to is full of lies and distortions of what the early church fathers said and taught – they taught they opposite. I’d already come across that work whilst researching an appendix for my book, one that is turning out to be a book in it’s own right as I find more and more lies about what the early church fathers taught. The article is full of the same tricks and deceptions that I see time and time again when pre-tribbers try to claim that the early church fathers taught a pre-trib rapture. THEY DID NO SUCH THING! Since I am a theologian and a scholar I have many of these writings in book form (and you can check many of them out on the internet too), and it is amazing how many of these quotes that ‘prove’ the fathers taught a pre-trib rapture somehow manage to start or end their quotes just before or after text that would make it quite clear that the early church fathers did not teach a pre-trib rapture.

        But sometimes it’s even there in the bits that they do quote. For instance, that quote from Cyprian. Just read it. It talks of how the nations rebel against God – and this idolatry is what the church is raised up from. It explicitly says that the wickedness of the world contributes to the purification of the righteous (straw served for working gold, as the text says), and then it talks of the time of tribulation (which purifies the church) and says ‘this is the last contest of the righteous in which, when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption’. How can escaping the tribulation by a pre-trib rapture be a last contest that involves believers needing to ‘overcome’?

        Raelene, when you believe this, you are deceived, and when you spread such lies you are teaching lies to other people and spreading falsehood, I would even go so far as to say heresy. It is the complete opposite of what the New Testament and the earliest church fathers stated on the subject. I want to challenge you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to repent and come to the truth on this issue.

      • Hi. I am a theologian who has studied just about every single claim of a rapture in the early church fathers, and a good many later ones, and barring a violent medieval cult leader, EVERY SINGLE ONE I examined turned out to be a false claim. EVERY SINGLE early church father who spoke on the end days taught that the church will through the Tribulation, and that the resurrection/rapture happens only when Jesus returns to destroy the antichrist. I’ve written a book on it, praised by people such as the UK head of international christian embassy Jerusalem for the excellence of its research. My rule of thumb is, if anyone tells you any early church father taught a Pretrib rapture is lying to you, no matter how sincerely they believe it. What happens is that people quote each other on this, and never check the facts. It’s amazing how many quotes end or start in just such a way as to avoid quoting bits that make it quite clear there is no way on earth the church father is teaching a Pretrib rapture. My book is called Falsifying the Fathers and it should be out this year along with The Rapture Trap, and A Rapture Reality Check and a massively expanded edition of Rapture Rupture, on Amazon and published 18 months ago.

        • Oops. Phone didn’t show I had already replied.

        • raelene

          I have studied from the Bible concerning the pre-trib rapture for well over 50 years and am firmly convinced the rapture will occur before the time of Jacob’s/Israel’s trouble. The more I study and compare everyone’s arguments against it, the more convinced I am that the Church/Bride of Christ will NOT be here during that 7 year time of the prophecy given to Daniel concerning DANIEL’S people, Israel.
          I don’t usually seek commentaries on the subject because they are not scripture. They are only someone’s interpretation, and sometimes may be useful to lead to other scriptures which may not have been considered previously, but I will just stick with the Bible and the Holy Spirit’s illumination of the scriptures to form my belief on the subject.

  • cjmartel

    That definitely puts things in a whole new light, for instance, if the rapture is only for the elect, then Christians, per se, will not be raptured, even more reason for Christians to stay involved. I believe that is one of our main problems in this day and age, a lot of Christians seem to think they will have a free pass from the tribulation, an extremely dangerous, for the soul that is, doctrine. This is akin to betting your life savings on the lottery!

  • Raelene

    The rapture is for the Body/Bride of Christ, not the elect/Israel. It is the main harvest of believers taking place before the time of Jacob’s trouble/the trib.
    The gathering of the elect happens at the end of the trib and corresponds to the gleanings which start at the 4 corners of the field.
    Gleaning is the last part of the harvest. First fruits is the beginning of the harvest.
    God laid it out in the Mosaic law of how the harvest was to take place and it was a picture of last days events.

    • TWR

      There is no rapture. The church is not the bride of Christ. We have been in tribulation for some time. People just don’t know who Jacob is. Jacob is not in the nation of Israel. Israel is first fruits. Always the head and never the tail.

    • Bro. Nick Nicholas

      The problem lies not with the doctrine of the ‘pre-great tribulation rapture’ – MY PERSONAL UNDERSTANDING of the problem is that it is most times not taught Biblically here in ‘Amerika’.
      We must remember that there has been persecution and tribulation of the ‘true church’ since shortly after our Lord Jesus Christ was translated back to heaven – and it is now very much on the increase worldwide.

      Why is it that so many that call themselves ‘christians’ here in ‘Amerika’ – and other western ‘civilized countries’ – want an ‘ejection seat’ out of the increasingly real problems that are occurring worldwide – whether they are caused by the increasing intensity and frequency of destructive events in nature – OR – the worldwide economic ‘meltdown’ – OR – the many other consequences of ever increasingly evil people – OR – the exponential increase of false teaching and falling away into Apostasy – OR – the rapid rise of real Persecution of CHRISTians worldwide?

      Yet if you read and truly believeth what “the LORD God” inspired to be written in “the word of the LORD” – it has promised in many places throughout the Holy Bible that these increasingly perilous things must come!

      Do ‘Amerikan’ and ‘westernized’ Christians really ‘think’ that we are somehow different, or ‘special’, or ‘better’ than our many truly converted CHRISTian Brothers and Sisters all around the world that are being Persecuted for their faith in “the LORD Jesus Christ” in 110+ countries – and many of whom are also increasingly being devastated by the everly increasingly catastrophic ‘natural’ events?
      – NOW – TODAY!!!

      HOWEVER – there is a very real Biblical difference between the promised tribulation and persecution that CHRISTians are told that we will endure (Rev 3:19, KJB), and the many other verses throughout the Holy Bible
      – AND that which is written about the Seventieth Week of Daniel (aka “the day of the LORD”, “the day of wrath”, “the day of the LORD’S wrath”, “the time of Jacob’s trouble”, the “great tribulation”, “the tribulation)
      – that is not for ‘the church’!

      As has several times been pointed out – Matthew Chapters 24 & 25 were written to “the JEWS” – several years before “the church” came into being:
      “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
      And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”
      (John 24:21-22, KJB)
      .

  • Jose

    Raelene,
    Are we not all the elect of God. Have the gentiles not been grafted into the original tree and are now partakers of the promises? And is this verse nullified Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. The other day I asked the question Is there an Eastern and Western church? Because Christians in the east are starting to go through some serious tribulation but no rapture yet. Is the rapture going to come just in time to whisk away all the churches in the West so as to keep them from tribulation? Who is Daniel speaking of when he says the antichrist will make war with the saints? Who is he speaking of when he writes Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits, and again Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. So these guys are the cream of the crop they know their God and they understand. But by your reasoning the cream of the crop gets taken out in the rapture. That’s like a football coach taking out the A team and substituting the B team in the closing minutes of a tied game. As far as I can gather from you all, is that the rapture is for those Christians that are awake and on the ball. The “left behinders” are kind of clueless, so how are they all of a sudden to become the understanding ones and they that know their God? And is God less than a marine? They even say no man left behind. Would there be a party given in heaven while his elect ,the apple of his eye ,is suffering on earth? What about this verse 2Ti_2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: Raelene I don’t want to suffer or my wife and children to suffer or any body, but in the world we shall have tribulation. John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    • suez

      Amen, Jose!!!!!

    • Raelene

      We are not all the elect of God. Those who are in the Body/Bride of Christ are the ‘whosoever’.

      The tree is Christ who is the vine and the root. The Jews are the natural branches and the Gentiles who are saved are the wild branches grafted in.

      I have not found anywhere in the Bible where Israel is called the natural olive tree, but I have seen where they are referred to as the fig tree.
      Song of Solomon 2:13 (the Bridgroom to the Bride)
      the fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
      Matthew 24:32
      Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

      This verse shows us that we are all one in Christ (the olive tree) and it is not saying we are no longer men or women or from Jewish or Gentile descent, but that we are equal in the Body of Christ. Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

      Christians throughout the past 2000 years have sufferred persecution and tribulation around the world which includes the wilds of South America, Asia, the Middle East, Africa in our times and also throughout Europe during the dark ages.

      Titus 2:13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
      This verse does not say that the blessed hope is the glorious appearing of Christ. The conjunction ‘and’ tells us these are two different things. The blessed hope is the catching away to meet the Lord in the air. The glorious appearing must then be his return in glory at the end of the Great Tribulation.

      The Great Tribulation is the last half of the 7 years of the time of Jacob’s trouble. Jacob is Israel. This 70th year of the prophecy given to Daniel concerning his people (Israel) is about Israel, not the Church/Body/Bride of Christ.I have already shown in my last reply to this thread that Israel is God’s elect.

      Many Gentiles will be saved during those 7 years and most will be martyred and before it’s over all of Israel will be saved. They will be the remaining remnant out of Israel who will be preserved through that time just as Noah and his family were saved through the judgement of the flood.

      In the ninth chapter of Daniel the Lord makes it clear while he is telling Daniel about the time of Jacob’s trouble, that he is speaking of Daniel’s people Israel.
      Daniel 9:23-24
      23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

      At the catching away/harpazo/rapture all who are born again and saved members of the Body/Bride/Church will be meeting the Lord in the air to be physically transformed to immortal, incorruptible bodies and transported to heaven during the time of Jacob’s trouble.

      You ask, “…. how are they all of a sudden to become the understanding ones and they that know their God?”
      God sends his two witnesses who preach in Jerusalem until the man of sin/son of perdition kills them and leaves them in the streets for 3 days for all the world to see before he resurrects them and catches them up to heaven. There are also the 144,000 male Jewish virgins preaching the gospel to all the world during that time.

      Yes. We shall suffer tribulation and persection of one type or another as the Body of Christ but we will NOT suffer through the time of Jacob’s trouble. Even though the whole world will go through that horrible time it is about a judgement on Israel for her sins and spiritual adultery against her Husband, Jehovah God. At the end of that 7 years she will be restored in their marriage, but at this point he has given her a writing of divorcement. The book of Hosea lays the whole thing out for us to understand.

      I pray the Lord God gives you understanding of these things and with that understanding may he give you his peace which passes all understanding.

      • Suez

        Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
        Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
        Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
        Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
        Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
        Raelene, Please tell me where it says they will be preaching the gospel, and I have not found that. I have heard it preached a lot, but they never give scripture for it. I read that they are before the throne of God, and they follow Jesus where ever he goes. I need scripture please. Thank you kindly.

        • Raelene

          The only scripture I have is Reveation 7: 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

          In verse 4 they are called servants of God which I suppose I and many others would think sounds as though they would be preaching the gospel since that’s what Gods servants are supposed to do. This is before the passage you posted which is when they are caught up to heaven. It certainly doesn’t say they are doing anything else to serve so I would believe they are serving him by telling the world of him and there is also the angel flying through the air preaching the everlasting gospel.

          Revelation 14:6
          And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

  • bremertonchristian

    Who are the dead in Christ? When are they raised? This is the question that reveals the timing of the rapture. Like a math problem you need to know the order of operations. The bible tells us certain things happen before other things. The bible is never wrong or contradictory to itself. The scary thing about pre-trib rapture doctrine is some Christians believe they can take the mark and still be saved. In the left behind series a man is forced to take the mark and is still saved. That is not scriptural. I believe the great falling away will be when many pre-tribers take the mark and still believe they are saved because “it cant be the mark of the beast because I won’t be here when the anti-c shows up”. Very dangerous.

    • Suez

      Hi bremer, I think we are seeing a start of the great falling away now, of “christians” falling away into the false New Age churches, such as Joel Osteen, and so very, very many churches preaching another gospel, another jesus, and another spirit. However, you bring up a really good and interesting point, and that also could happen!!! I guess it could all blend together, as we know a “great” falling away certainly means Many, maybe even millions!!! Let us hold tightly to our faith in the Lord Jesus, and endure to the end for our salvation in him!!!!! 🙂 Narrow is the way, and FEW there be that find it!!!!

    • The other reason is if you aren’t expecting suffering, and are taught you will escape it….. Millions of evangelical churches were taught this (via Watchman Nee, mainly), and when the communists came in, millions apostasized from the faith as a result.

  • Jose

    Raelene,

    This pretrib rapture is a fable as in what Paul wrote 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    I’m not saying that the rapture itself is a fable, Paul explained it in several letters to wit; 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Notice he says at the LAST trump. To continue; 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. He says in both Corinthians and Thessalonians that the dead in Christ shall rise first, signifying a resurrection, and when you read in Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. So if this is the first resurrection which includes those that dealt with the antichrist, and the rapture described by Paul also includes a resurrection of the dead it stands to reason that Those which are alive and remain that shall be caught up together with them in the clouds also went through that very dark period of time.
    Otherwise John should have written something to the effect of ; But guys this first resurrection I speak of ,which includes those that were beheaded and that did not take the mark of the beast etc., was not really the first resurrection, because there was a really first resurrection during the rapture that Paul wrote of, so this one in Revelation is kind of a second first resurrection. I write this in a mocking way to show the absurdity of this pre trib fable. Raelene the Word of God does not contradict itself. These men of God wrote when moved by the Holy Ghost. It will always fit. And yet men will wrest the scriptures as Peter wrote speaking of Paul’s writings; 2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. And the reason it will be to destruction is that men will be disillusioned and there will be a great falling away. A falling away also written of by Paul in 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; What day is he speaking of when he says “that day will not come”. the preceding scriptures tell us 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. So if the day that he is speaking of is not the rapture, the rapture and this day of our gathering unto him are separate days, but then you get stuck again with that half resurrection, first resurrection thing, it just doesn’t fit. What does fit Raelene is that men will fall away and I believe this pretrib fable will be one of the causes for men to fall away. I’ve heard pretribbers say that if God makes me go through the tribulation he’s not my God, and he doesn’t love his bride. Should the Christians in the middle east being persecuted right now, men being shot, beheaded, women raped, sold into slavery etc., stop believing in God? Are they not part of the bride? Is the rapture only for certain Christians? Let go of all preconceived ideas by men and read the scriptures. Of course no one wants to go through the great tribulation, it will be the darkest time on earth that ever was and ever shall be, but take comfort, look up, your redemption draweth nigh, and it will be the true church’s finest hour. God bless you

  • Javier Ruiz-Leon

    Genesis through Acts – to the Jews

    Romans through Philemon – to the Church

    Hebrews through Revelation – to the Jews

    • bremertonchristian

      All scripture is given…

      • Javier Ruiz-Leon

        …rightly dividing the word of truth.

    • This kind of hyper-dispensationalism is ridiculous.

      When Paul says ‘All Scripture is given…’ he was writing to a church leader, Timothy. The Scripture he was referring to was the Old Testament – at that time, it’s all there was at that time.

    • Bro. Nick Nicholas

      Javier Ruiz-Leon – I am of the personal Biblical understanding that there will indeed be a ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’
      – HOWEVER your division of “the word of the LORD” is incorrect – specifically that which is written in ‘The Revelation of Jesus Christ’, the book of Revelation:

      -1) “John to THE SEVEN CHURCHES which are in Asia:
      Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;”
      (Rev 1:4, KJB)
      1 Time “the seven churches” is specifically written

      – 2) “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,
      and send it unto THE SEVEN CHURCHES which are in Asia;
      unto EPHESUS,
      and unto SMYRNA,
      and unto PERGAMOS,
      and unto THYATIRA,
      and unto SARDIS,
      and unto PHILADELPHIA,
      and unto LAODICEA.”
      (Rev 1:11, KJB)
      1 Time “the seven churches” is specifically written

      -3) “The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks.
      The seven stars are the angels of THE SEVEN CHURCHES:
      and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are THE SEVEN CHURCHES.”
      (Rev 1:20, KJB)
      2 Times “the churches” are written

      -4) Revelation Chapter 2:1, 7, 8, 11, 12, 17, 18, 23, 29 =
      6 Times “church” ~ “churches” are written

      -5) Revelation Chapter 3:1, 6, 7, 13, 14, 22 =
      9 Times “church” ~ “churches” are written

      -6) Revelation Chapter 22:16 =
      1 Time “churches” is written

      A total of 20 times “church” ~ “churches” are written in the Book of Revelation.
      .

  • Arlene Whitfield

    If you look up every time the word “elect” is mentioned in the Bible, it is referring to saved people whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free. The word “elect is always referring to believers! The Bible mentions “elect” 16 times and “election” 6 times. In 1 Thessalonians 1:4 the Bible reads *Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.* This is talking to the Thessalonians who are clearly Gentiles. Again in Romans 8:33 the Bible reads *Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.* Out of 16 mentions of the word “elect” in the Bible, 10 refer to ALL believers in general, 2 of these mentions refer to believers who are SPECIFICALLY GENTILE, 1 of them refer to believers who are Jews, 2 of them refer to Jesus Christ Himself, and 1 of them refer to Jacob the person being referred to as God’s “elect”. Explain to me Romans 11:7 where the Bible reads *What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.* BOOM! Right there! Isreal HATH NOT…THE ELECTION HATH! Well, if Isreal were the “election” then this passage wouldn’t make any sense!

  • mtman2

    There’s a whole lotta minoring in the majors and majoring in the minors.
    Of course He did tell us when asked but the fuller truth is:
    “No man knows the day or hour not even the Son”-makes an overriding point.

  • Bob

    To pass the above article off as evidence for a pre tribulation rapture is very misleading. To prove a pre tribulation rapture requires a scripture that states there will be one. Anything less is mere conjecture and supposition.

  • TWR

    Great article! Great comments. Geoffrey is absolutely correct. There is no rapture. The reason is what is missing. There is no church. We remain Israelites and gentiles until the time of the gentiles is over. Israel was God’s people. He lived among them, fought with and for them, and taught them and them only how to worship him (John 4:22). They were supposed take the gospel to the gentiles. Israel was disobedient. The northern kingdom was in captivity and finally the southern kingdom fell. Hundreds of years later, religion started popping up. Israel is a covenant nation. When they were defeated, Rome and Islam tried to insert themselves into the promises of the Israelites. Rome’s church and doctrine are not God’s. All he requires of gentiles is to love him and repent to be grafted in. That is the third temple. It will not be a physical temple. God used the curses of Deuteronomy 28:15-68 to tear down the temple. Our body is God’s temple and church. The third temple will be the restoration of Israel along with the gentiles who will be attached to them. The covenant is with Israel, not Christians. That is the doctrine of Rome. No church. No rapture.

  • Dr Bob Chapman Ph.D, D.Min, MA, BA

    When is a “sign” NOT an end-time sign?

    The most common end-times signs referred to today are from Matthew 24:4-14, but it seems strange to me that they are highlighted today because Jesus stated they were NOT THE SIGN the four disciples he was talking to should look for.

    The four disciples who were talking with him at the time only asked for one sign and its time of fulfillment which would prepare them for the destruction of the temple and the city as Jesus had prophesied. Jesus answered them by saying this, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near”, Luke 21:20. Both the “time” and the “sign” the disciples asked for are answered in this one verse.

    He goes on to say that His prophecy would only be relevant to the Judeans, “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her”, Luke 21:21.

    These prophesied events were only relevant to the Judeans and are not relevant to us or have any relevance to a second coming or end of the world. To help them escape the destruction He prophesied He mentions “birthpang” signs, but these were still only relevant to the Judeans.

    So let’s stop highlighting the multiple birthpang signs Jesus dismissed as NOT “the sign” or “the time” and realize that Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 referred only to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in AD70.

    Bob

    • TWR

      The problem with doctrine is people don’t understand who the Judeans are. If you read Deuteronomy 28:15-68, you would understand. Judeans are not Israelites and Israelites are not Judeans. All of the empires in Daniel’s vision had one thing in common. Captivity. Judeans have been captive here in America (mystery Babylon). The prophesy is not relevant to Japheth who dwells in the tents of Shem. The prophecy is not relevant to Israelites scattered around the world. The prophecy is relevant to Judeans that came over on ships to the house of bondage (Egypt), and lost their heritage. Attention to detail. Deuteronomy. PHD, MA, BA, understand the curses and who they apply to.

      Jeremiah 16:19 O Yah, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

    • TWR

      When you are deceived, you deceive Gods people. Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 have nothing to do with 70 A.D. These are end time prophesies that correspond to Mystery Babylon (America).

      • Pete

        They have 100% everything to do with AD70. Jesus said so. I guess you don’t believe Jesus.

  • Dr Bob Chapman Ph.D, D.Min, MA, BA

    TWR, Isn’t it a little presumptuous to consider America is “that important”?

    What relevance did America have to the four disciples Jesus was speaking to about the specific prophecy He had just uttered concerning the destruction of the temple and the city?

    What you refer to in you reply is modern day hindsight interpretation of the Revelation of John. It is easier to “interpret” with hindsight than keep within the context of the understanding of the first recipients of the inspired letter. The first recipients appear to have understood Revelation and rejoiced in what they understood because they were blessed by it, Rev. 1:3.

    Bob

    • TWR

      Going to try to make a long story short. America is the house of bondage. It is the Egypt Israel never went back to by ships to be sold as bondmen and women. Israel is NE Africa. The middle east didn’t exist until the 50s. The tents of Shem (Israel, Canaan) bordered the tents of Ham (Egypt). They are only separated by a man made canal.

      Just because God changed Jacob’s name to Israel did not change his heritage. When the southern kingdom was destroyed, Israel fled into Africa, where they blended in, except for the Semitism. They were different. Different diet, different worship practices, no tribal markings. They didn’t associate with true Africans because they considered them unclean.

      When the slavers came, they did not come for Africans. They came specifically for Jews (crafty council). They were assisted by other Africans in locating and capturing the Jews. Get the hidden ones so they can never become a nation again.

      This was not typical slavery that had existed. They said we must remove their heritage and religion (Jeremiah 17:4). Break their spirit (Deut 28:15-68).

      America is important for what they intentionally inflicted on the house of Judah. America, like the five that were fallen, and the one that was (Rome), had captivity in common. The seventh that stayed a short while was Britain. At its peak, largest of them all. America is eight, and sprung from seven. 42 of the 43 U.S. presidents have been related and of those royal bloodlines, which are phony.

      Believe it or not, Judah is here. When the apocalyptic scriptures speak of Judah or Judeans, it is right here. Until people figure out who the real Jews are, end time prophecy is worthless. This is mystery Babylon and New York is the prize city of the Chaldeans. World trade. World government (U.N.). Many waters are many nations and tongues (immigration). Seven mountains are concepts on which the system are built.

      Most do not want to believe this but it is 100% accurate and verifiable. Ministry is the worse because of all the corrupt doctrine they have been fed to cover it up. That was the short version.

  • Dr Bob Chapman Ph.D, D.Min, MA, BA

    Well, the certainly explains why I couldn’t find it in the New Testament. Thank you for your reply.

  • Nathan

    Poor article.
    Anyone reading that chapter for the first time would see that it is indeed talking about the rapture taking place after the tribulation. You people have been brainwashed by false doctrine to believe these lies that you are not gonna be around for the tribulation, when it spasifically says that we will be brought into tribulation. Jesus is not talking in code here. He makes it obvious for everyone to see. Unless you were taught about a pre trib rapture, you would never come to the conclusion of this article.

    • TWR

      he rapture itself is false doctrine. There is no rapture.

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  • PeteBKay

    //Jesus starts the chapter off by saying that the temple will be torn down to the ground and destroyed. And then rebuilt again.//

    How ridiculous. No, He doesn’t.

  • Dave

    This is what is typically taught in many Bible colleges. Of course, it is simple enough to debunk if this site would care to offer space to do so. Lots of flawed logic in these points, although I can argue both sides.

    • No, what is taught is most Bible colleges is that Matthew 24 shows the Church in the Tribulation, and that is totally false.

  • Allan Rowley

    Hi Geoffrey,
    You sure know how to stir a hornets nest.
    Dispensationalism is anti Israel.

    Read this article on the interpretation of Luke 21 which would indicate if you believe in a pre trib rapture then pack your bags or should it be “cleanse your soul.” On the outside the US has 12 months before destruction…………….

    In Luke 21:34–36, Jesus says, “…so that day come upon you unawares (unexpectedly). For as a snare (or trap) shall it come on all them, who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy, to escape all these things, and to stand before the Son of man (Jesus).”

    Satan is in the Final stages of his evil, diabolical, and sinister plan to control this world. His instrument is the extremely arrogant and evil New World Order elite. This plan has now come to its very last step. They have already set the trap and it is now ready to be sprung, in the form of their planned sudden destruction, which will start World War 3. As these verses tell us, it is a trap that is coming upon the whole world.
    The last move on the chessboard will involve the demise, or destruction, of the United States. When they announce “checkmate”, the United States, the nation protecting the nation of Israel, will no longer be a world power.

    But what was the setting of the trap? The NWO elite got their chosen man, their new-age messiah, their charismatic leader, the great deceiver, into power, as president of the U.S., the final trap was set!!!
    With the generous help of the sheeple of the U.S., we fell right into their trap. They elected the Antichrist to be the President of the United States.
    But now, there is NO turning back. Their man of Great Deception is now in power. On Oct. 29, 2008, Obama made his covenant with millions upon millions of people to radically change the U.S., and to change the world!!! As a nation, we returned the favor to him, and to the New World Order elite, one week later, by electing the Beast of Revelation, as our President. As a result of this “Setting of the Trap”, we have pronounced judgment on ourselves.
    The Satanic NWO will be the instrument used to carry out this judgment. With less than one year left as President of the U.S., the NWO is quickly running out of time, to spring this massive trap of unparalleled deception, and unbelievable horror!
    World War 3 will erupt, with the unleashing of the great sword (nuclear weapons?) in Rev. 6.
    Out of the ashes and chaos of World War 3, the NWO will emerge. This is the motto of the New World Order.

    Blessings

    • On the contrary, dispensationalism is very Pro-Israel because it doesn’t attempt to steal any of the promises made ONLY to the Jews and Israel and try to paste them onto the Church. Matthew, Mark and Luke were never written to the Christian Church that Paul is the leader of. Both Luke 21 and Matthew 24 see the Jews in the Tribulation, the Church, which wasn’t even created when those books were written, is no where in sight. When you learn to rightly divide your bible all these things make sense.

      “If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:” Ephesians 3:2 (KJV)

      • Lee

        Where do I go to learn how to rightly divide?

      • Pete

        //Matthew, Mark and Luke were never written to the Christian Church that Paul is the leader of. //
        Is Paul your Pope? This is hogwash. All of the early Christians WERE JEWS. I cannot believe how badly dispensationalism has screwed up people’s minds. This doesn’t even make any sense!

        //On the contrary, dispensationalism is very Pro-Israel because it doesn’t attempt to steal any of the promises made ONLY to the Jews and Israel and try to paste them onto the Church. //
        Right, instead, dispensationalism attempts to disregard the cross of Christ, making it God’s backup plan. It ADDS to the Bible and changes simple words in an attempt to force-fit a preconception into it.

        //When you learn to rightly divide your bible all these things make sense.//
        You don’t even know what “rightly divide” means.

        //Both Luke 21 and Matthew 24 see the Jews in the Tribulation//
        Correct. The events described by Jesus happened do the 1st century Jews and Jerusalem, when the Old Covenant ended with the destruction of Jerusalem. That’s why the Olivet Discourse reads in a Jewish oriented manner.

        //the Church, which wasn’t even created when those books were written//
        This is just plain false. The Gospels were written AFTER these events. Even if you place the beginning of the church at Pentecost in Acts 2, these gospels were written after that. BTW, the church ekkelsia has been around since the beginning of time. The word just means “assembly” or “congregation.” It’s a word used to describe the people of God. Faithful Israel was God’s church at the beginning.

        YOU need to “rightly divide.”

        Stick to street preaching and leave the eschatology up to people who actually understand it.

  • John

    Chapter 25 and the parables that it contains is absolutely a part of Christ’s discussion about end times. I believe that the author is twisting the scripture to fit his theology rather than just let the scriptures speak the truth. The chapter 25 parables tell us to be active and doing the work of the Lord while we wait for his return.

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  • How sad! Yet another wolf in sheep’s clothing seeking to deceive spiritual goats (the non-elect) into believing that they are spiritual sheep (the elect). His destruction will be swift and sure, as the Bible clearly tells us.

    The Khazar impostors posing as Jews who have hijacked our world in their Satanic cult informed by the hideous and vile teachings of the Babylonian Talmud are the very people Jesus warned us about in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9. They are the synagogue of Satan, a.k.a. the Antichrist of these end times. Nothing could be more obvious to those of us who are of the true elect.

    Election or being chosen by God is an individual, nor a corporate choice which God made since before the world began and wrote our names in the Lamb’s book of life, ensuring that one day God would put His Holy Spirit in us, orchestrate events wo that we would hear the gospel preached (both the bad news of our total depravity and the good news of the grace of God and propitious death of His son, Yahushua, on the cross, so that His righteousness might be imputed to us), we would believe it and thus become one of His born again adopted sons or daughters in the living YHWH (God). God predestinated all of this! Wicked and prideful men wish to deceive mankind into believing that we choose God. But we do not; He chooses us. Period.

    For anyone to assert that the pathological liars and demon-possessed psychopaths who pose as Jews of today are those of the elect is deeply offensive to those of us of the objective truth.

    The gathering of Matthew 24:30-31pertains to the gathering of the saints in resurrected bodies who all possessed the faith of Abraham during their lives. It is the true community of born again believers. it is the true church and bride of Yahushua, the Son of God.

    Don’t let these false teachers deceive you! This is the simple truth revealed in scripture quite plainly and simply for all of the elect. For the non-elect, they will be deceived. Matthew 24:24 tells us this concerning the times of the great tribulation in which we are now living through the last 10 months.

    Let the wise understand. The wicked never will. Daniel 12:10 assures us of this.

  • Helen

    Your discussion on Matthew 24 not being for the Church ,but for Israel is correct,although not ALL the Jews will then be back in Israel( See Matthew 24:31 and Isaiah 27:13)! The concept of “remnant” is mentioned 64 times in Scripture and more often than not referring to Israel (Romans 11:5 mentions this also—-and Rom 11:26 does not mean ALL Israel–but those of the saved remnant) It is often necessary to refer to Hebrew as the translations are often not conveying the explicit meaning
    Yes,”God’s elect are definitely Israel although according to Romans 11;17 states that the wild olive branches have been grafted in among-st the natural branches,and Ephesians 2:11-14 states that we are now “One New Man ” in Christ But in the context of Matthew 23/24 the context is about the Jews in Israel at he time of the Great Tribulation
    Also just to clarify your statement of “Satan arriving, Matthew 24:15 (the abomination of desolation) is the image of the Anti-Christ erected in the Temple,orchestrated by the False Prophet, The ” unholy Trinity of end-times are Satan.Anti-Christ and False Prophet” in opposition to the Father,Son and Holy Spirit
    Your deduction of only Jews fleeing because of the Sabbath reference is correct–although I don’t agree with your view of the Sabbath as just being a “Jewish observance was the Sabbath is a creation principle an will still be in effect in the Millenium.as mentioned in Isaiah 66:23 ” From one Sabbath to another shall all mankind come and bow before me”Also the Festival of Tabernacles will still be kept in the Millenium according to Zech.14:16
    In the New Testament the Sabbath is mentioned 58 times ,and was never abrogated in favor of the first day of the week! In the case of Paul preaching until midnight on the first day of the week—remember a day in Jewish context starts at sunset the previous day! All through Acts it is mentioned many times–Paul went into the Synagogue to preach,”as his custom was!”
    Just to verify also the use of “The Lord’s day”as also used in Rev 1:10 in Hebrew is referred to as YOM YHWH—which is the start of the Millenium reign of Jesus Christ( YESHUA HA MASCHIACH) on earth
    It never refers to Sunday as the day of worship!
    The “Breaking of Bread”is not limited to religious observance in the Hebrew life.It refers to dividing flat loaves of bread for a typical meal.The blessing was first spoken over the bread and this prayer subsequently covered the rest of the food that followed In short–the phrase “breaking of bread” was a common Jewish expression for the sharing of a meal It is also mention in Acts as ” breaking bread from house to house “daily” This is very clearly outlined in the book of Alfred Edersheim ” The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah”

  • Checking to see if this works

  • Just checking

  • For some reason, I can’t reply to comments particularly, so Geoffrey Grider, your comments on Nov 28th are nonsensical. If you had gone into an early New Testament church and told them that Matthew, Mark and Luke (and again, not John – why?) were not written for the church, you would have been laughed to scorn. The early church was very careful to preserved these gospels because they WERE meant for the church. Where is this idea that the church wasn’t created when these gospels were written from? Were they written before Pentecost, when the church was born? Where is the idea that the church only existing when Paul was a leader? That’s what you seem to be saying – that Paul was the leader of the entire church. He was not. He was a leader among many, with the 12 apostles and Jesus’ brothers and family being chief among these other leaders. Are you really trying to say that the gospels were not written for specifically Paul’s churches, even though one of them, Luke, was written by a close companion of Paul who accompanied him on several of his church planting journey? Given that Acts was written after Luke as a sequel and yet contains accounts of churches Paul founded, how on earth can you claim that the church wasn’t even in existence when Luke was written? What strong satanic delusions are you under that you would teach these absurd and heretical doctrines? Specifically, Matthew 24 was spoken solely to Jesus DISCIPLES – ie the leaders and nucleus of his church. He didn’t tell them they would be persecuted for the sake of the Law, but ‘my name’ – in other words because they were Christians. Why do you persist in leading people astray with your false teaching. You are one of the false teachers that Jesus warned us about in the last days, and it is far past time you repented. I notice you have not even attempted to refute my detailed and thorough refutation of the manifold self-contradictions of the original article above on the 10th June. I again urge anyone who seeks truth to read one of many books out there that tell the truth, including my own, http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Rupture-Nathanael-Lewis/dp/1905691289/ and others, such as the very practical end times teaching in http://www.amazon.com/End-Time-Survivor-Neil-Turner-ebook/dp/B00HW0EOAI/

  • “Matthew, Mark and Luke were not written about or for the Christian Church”

    Really? But John was? So read John:

    “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” – John 17:15

    In John 17:15 the Lord Jesus Christ Himself prays to the Father NOT to take believers OUT OF the world but to protect them from evil. NOT raptured before, but protected during tribulation. And NO, the great tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. The wrath of GOD comes AFTER the tribulation that is from the antichrist. They are not the same and not from the same author, so do not mix them up!

    “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; bur after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” – 2 Tim 4:3-4

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” – 2 Thes 2:11

    Pretribulation rapture is both a lie (or part of it as the false gospel also includes OSAS, hyper-grace, and other false teachings), and a fable pleasant to the ear that please those who don’t want to endure any tribulation and sound doctrine; therefore after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves false teachers, having itching ears. And that’s we can now here anywhere in the church: entertaining, enjoyable, and humorous fables.

    • raelene

      Marc,
      Before the wrath of Satan is released on the earth the wrath of the Lamb, who is God is released.

      Revelation 6:15-17
      15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

      AFTER this comes the wrath of Satan.

      Revelation 12:12
      Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

  • Rob

    Read Matthew chpt in Context. Check the previous chpts from chpt 19 onwards and see who Jesus was preaching to and dealing with. The Sadducees and Pharasees, the Sanhedrin etc. He really was exposing them vehemently when you read it. Jesus was not impressed with Herods temple because His Kingdom is not of this World. Check the last verses of Chpt 23 of Matthew then start reading Matthew 24. You will see why this Chpt is by and large dealing with Israel and the Jews. Jesus referred to His own body as the Temple in comparison and that this true Temple would be rebuilt everlastingly unlike the physical Jewish Temple for which no stone would be left standing. Christ is the body and true Temple of God. As much as I love the Jews and Israel, they are currently still seeking their own righteousness in disobedience to God (the priority of the physical temple for them) and will come to the end of themselves & repent in the tribulation. I believe Jesus does give directions for how to escape the Judgements He mentions but in Context it can only be if you Hook up with Him, the True Living Temple. The tribulation is 7 years because Antichrist will be deceptive and powerful but also religious and through Satan will mock and counterfeit God’s 7 year Sabbath (since Antichrist wants to be like God). In 2 thessalonians chpt 2 the Apostle Paul qualifies the Lords return and Our (the True Church’s) Gathering Together to Him (2 separate things here), by tying in the Church & Holy Spirit who is doing the witholding and letting, “witholding” The Judgement mentioned in Mt chpt 24 through the preaching of the Gospel & therefore “Letting” Sin(unbelief in Jesus / Idolatry) go unpunished in its Fulness (unbelievers storing up Wrath for the Day of Wrath). If you notice Apostle Paul, in mentioning Antichrist, mentions him in the Context of the Jewish physical temple, that he will eventually sit there as the false god. The coming/revealing of the Antichrist is Judgement & If you put these things together, then the Catching Away of the True Faithful Church/ body of Christ, The True Temple of God in the Spirit, will be around the period of the coming to prominence of the rebuilt physical temple and in all likelihood before the 7 year tribulation period because of the witholding and letting it accomplishes. The two temples, one being the physical jewish temple and the other the Body of Christ the Church are the common theme and in juxtaposition to each other, however Christ’s Body is the True representation & is not earthly, which means the Jewish Nation will have to suffer The tribulation period to repent and realise who their Messiah really is. (There are plenty of Scriptures even a whole Epistle (Hebrews) dedicated to this reality. When Jesus appeared under Pontius Pilot He stated that His Kingdom was not of this earth, He said destroy this temple and on the Third day it will be raised up, Praise God for His Goodness!
    Rob
    Be Blessed.

  • Rob

    Just to add some more for everyones benefit about reading Matthew 24 in Context. If you check out Mt chpt 23 & read the “7 Woes on the teachers of the Law & Pharisees” NIV version. The Lord was quite Indignant, its quite Amazing and this was in and around the Temple in Jerusalem. Our great Lord as only He can do lands the clincher in verse 34-36 of cpt 23
    In NIV version
    “”Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will
    come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation””

    The Temple rulers were guilty of the blood of Righteous Prophets (Parable of the Landowner Mt 21:33-45)
    The Parable of the two Sons Mt 21:28-32
    The Parable of The Barren Fig Tree Mt 21:18-22
    The Parable of The Marriage Feast Mt 22:1-14

    Jesus answers the Sadducees Mt 22: 29-33
    Pharisaism Exposed Mt 23:1-12
    Eight Woes to religious leaders Mt 23:13-36
    Lament Over Jerusalem Mt 23:37-39

    In Mt 23:34-36 Jesus states that Israel & its religious leaders are guilty of the Blood of the righteous prophets sent to them throughout history.

    So by the time you get to Mt Chpt 24 , after all the Lord had said and dealt out their Judgement, who would He be referring to principally in Mt Chpt 24 unless they repented of it? The woes and Judgements were very specific. The Idolatry of the physical Temple was exposed along with the Whole Nation to its erring religious leaders. In chpt 23 ” Do not call anyone Father…..You have one Father who is in heaven.” ” Do not call anyone Teacher, you have One who is your teacher”. ” You are all brothers…”(not One special group)” Etc etc. The religious leaders then ” love the place of honour at banquets and the cheif seats at Synagoges (church) & in market places( business, and love being called Teachers by the (unsuspecting) people” For they are wolves in sheeps clothing.
    Contrast all this with the True faithful Church of Born Again sanctified believers…
    In Mt chpt 21 The Lord said
    43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a [m]people, producing the fruit of it. 44 And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”

    That Nation to whom the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven & Kindom of God were given to is His Body, The Church of the Lord, His Bride. The Idolatry of the things mentioned by the Lord continues in Mt chpt 24 Because Israel the Nation is still deceived by Antichrist & False prophet. I can assure you that Danuel and prophets that saw these things of the future were not Idolaters. Yet in the Tribulation period Israel will be plunged into darkness to suffer still many things until at the end they cry out to Him “whom they pierced”. I love the Law of God of Moses however its how they taught it that causes them to stumble.
    Zech 12:10
    “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.”

    With all the Judgements in The tribulation (which is progressive) Israel will finally cry out To the Lord Jesus(Yashua) whom they realised they had crucified for their Sins.

    The Church of the Lord has all these things of God knowledge in Christ bestowed upon it.(Eph chpt 1)We the born again believers in Christ will HAVE to appear before The Lords Judgement Seat ( Bema seat) Theres no choice here in the matter. To do this you will have to make the gathering together to Him In The Air! (Rapture) We are commanded to Love His Appearing for Us. Not on the Mount of Olives yet, we are Judged for Faithfulness to Him at the Bena Seat and are then invited to the Marriage Feast of the Lamb! We are not parading being saved by the Law itself & Israels futile attempts to revive something that has passed (Epistle to the Hebrews) but through the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus by Faith in His blood Alone! In His everlasting Covenant through His Body, which we are, The True temple of God. Right at the start of Matthew 25 therefore the Church, believers in Him are exhorted to maintain always an Alertness to wait for their Groom from heaven & to be Sober, serious & deliberate about this being watchful for that midnight cry of the Groom, to Love His appearing. The foolish virgins were careless and did not take personal responsibility but were never really cleansed of Idolatry thinking and therefore didnt treasure what was given to them the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Be Blessed
    Rob

  • bossross

    Romans 11:5-7 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

  • It’s awesome in support of me to have a website, which is helpful designed for my know-how.

    thanks admin

  • Greg Barthelette

    I have read almost every comment in this post and I find something quite amazing.

    Those believers that promote the Post Tribulation Rapture and also those few who say there is no rapture, are both equal in the amount of condemnation and hatred they spewed at those who disagreed with them.

    There was one lady who believed in the Post Tribulation view named Suez, who wrote with love and grace and sounded Christ like.

    If you read the posts of the Pre Tribulation believers, you would find the majority of them answered with the grace and love you would expect from Christians.

    As a born again believer in Christ I’m appalled at the words I hear from fellow brothers and sisters.

    There are Christian doctrines we can be dogmatic about, the Rapture is not one of them.

    When I read Christian posts like this I’m reminded of the quote from Mahatma Gandhi, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

    Greg

    • Well, as one who has posted a lot from a post- trib position, can you point out Where I have spewed hatred and condemnation? At most I have pointed out where someone has said no-one can refute them and then for whatever reason have not responded when they have been refuted.

      Actually yes, the rapture is something there is great need to be dogmatic about, because the heresy of a pre-tribulation rapture is a major deception designed to send people to he’ll in the last days. Why do I say that so strongly?

      Let’s consider two verses, one from Matthew 24 and one from luke 21. Jesus warned us that only those disciples who endure or persevere to the end will be saved in the last days. Yet we have a false doctrine taught as alleged biblical fact that says don’t worry, this doesn’t apply to you because you will be raptured out of there – this only applies to some future special tribulation saints or whatever, and people with itching ears lap it up because it is what they want to hear – we won’t have to suffer much, we’ll escape the worst, etc. This false doctrine has at it’s beating heart the concept of imminent, that Jesus could come at any time, that his return is at hand or near. When the disciples asked Jesus about the last days, the very first thing he warned them of was two kinds of false teachers, those who claimed to be christ, and those who taught his return is near or at hand – Luke 21.8. In other words, Jesus warned that a major part of the last days deception within the church would be the teaching of imminent, which is the core and foundation of the pre-tribulation rapture heresy. What did Jesus tell his disciples to do to those false teachers who taught imminence? Luke 21.8 tells us: two things. First, don’t be deceived and second don’t follow them. Yet we have a dogmatic movement that claims that the very teaching Jesus warned against is biblical truth and condemns as antibiblical those who tell the truth, and a deceived church follows these false teachers.

      So, we have Jesus warning us to persevere to the end to be saved, and a doctrine that says don’t worry, you won’t have to endure to the end, and millions of those so deceived will loose their salvation because they will fall away and deny Jesus and take the mark of the beast. It’s happened before – not the mark of the beast bit, of course. Millions of evangelical Christians in China were taught this doctrine, and when the communists came to power, very many of them apostasized from the faith and we’re eternally lost. Aside from the individual eternal destiny aspect, it took the Chinese church decades to recover, but we won’t have even one decade. That is the potential pernicious eternal impact such a false doctrine has. So yea, we do need to be dogmatic about it.

  • Roberto

    God Himself is bound to deal with Israel, The Nation. We all love Israel I believe. Nevertheless they have consistently sought a sign, signs….. Ring a bell to anyone…..and seek their own righteousness. He is bound essentially because of Abraham Isaac & Jacob and promises to them.

    The Church of the Lord, His Bride who is being prepared day by day by His Spirit Doesnt Need Signs or A Sign…

    Basic Teaching here,

    We believe on the Lord, His Death Burial & Resurrection is All the Sign we need.
    Instead, Signs and wonders follow those who believe on Jesus, these constitute His Followers.

    Our Citizenship is in Heaven Where Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father(Yahwey, God Almighty)

    We are commanded to Abide in Christ by the Consolation of His mighty Spirit.

    We are commanded to be Sanctified and to crucify the flesh & its inclinations. To not love the world or the things in the World (by & large Lust of all types)
    We are to stay unspotted from the world & its temptations, yet to Occupy until His return for Us.

    Our relationship to Jesus is what saves us.

    Holiness, separation unto the Lord, living blameless and walking in Godliness are all commands given to the Church. Apostolic teaching based on Christs work on the Cross For Us.

    Our imputed righteousness must results in Works of Faith (Epistle of James to The Saints in Christ /The Church) We are not obligated to Works of Law. A big difference in these two.

    A Bride is the Church & must prove faithful (Eph chpt 5) This is done by the Spirit and Yashuas provision of the Five Fold Ministry (Eph chpt 4) The Church in and of itself nourishes itself and is built up in Christ.

    Israel is Blind to all these things. Yet Apostle Paul says that, all Israel will be saved…

    ( Rom 11:26,27)
    “”and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.””

    Israel has always sought a sign to believe, sadly, the Tribulation period is just what that will offer Signs galore.

    The Church of Jesus Christ our Lord needs no sign. Our Citizenship is already guaranteed in Him Alone. Our sins have been dealt with on the Cross.

    The Church is exhorted to Godliness & Holiness because we have the Firstfruits of the Holy Spirit. All the Apostles taught this to the Saints, as it behoves The Saints of The Lord. Its the disposition of heart that the Lord sees, only He is perfect.

    1 Thess 4:7,8
    “”7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in Holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.””

    Israel has no knowledge of the Grace of the Lord Jesus. They are in disobedience until such time as they turn to Yashua, Jesus our Saviour, not only Messiah. Saviour & Messiah.

    So really if any ‘believer’ in Christ Still needs a Sign to believe and hasnt really Repented or has fallen from Grace & The faith, then The Tribulation, the full 7 years May be for you?

    Because then Antichrist will Make a covenant of Man with Israel & they’ll see their temple worship restored for a little time. Then with all the signs & witness that God will allow & Antichrists deception they will finally realise Yashua was their Messiah & you can repent again brother or sister along with the Jewish Nation. No wonder Apostle Paul Grieved for the Nation.

    Amos 5:18
    “”Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.””

    The Church is the Light & Salt of the world. The Church is the Body of Christ. We are called to rejoice in Christ not to be plunged into Woe & Sorrow upon Sorrow that the Tribulation will be. For Satan himself will have his go on the earth along with every form of evil thing imaginable. Mens hearts will fail them for the things that will happen in the Tribulation.

    Believers however groan within by the Holy Spirit Now to be already clothed with their Spiritual/ Glorified bodies like unto the Lords Body. The body fit for heaven because flesh & blood cant inherit Heaven. Yet heaven is our Home where Christ & true Zion is along with the heavenly temple. Hence the mystery of the Rapture(Harpazo)

    I believe this is what Apostle Paul may have meant when he said in 1 Thess 5:1,2
    “”Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night””

    The Church is not subject to these times & seasons unlike Israel who is because of their Blindness to Gods Righteousness in Christ & seeking their own righteousness through the physical temple in Jerusalem. This is why he could write in verse 9

    “”9For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.””

    A bride has to eventually live with her Groom. It cant be an indefinite engagement. Israel has to be dealt with by God. This cannot be left
    Indefinitely…

    The Church has to appear before Jesus at His Bema seat.

    The Rapture(Harpazo) is clearly taught by the Apostle Paul as a Mystery(Secret). He clearly teaches in his letters that it will be an instantaneous change (in the twinkling of an eye).

    In 1 Cor 15
    he elaborates that this will occur for both types of believers, those already passed on & those still alive at His coming for the Lords Church to meet Him together in the clouds & so because of the change to our bodies be translated into heaven itself. Flesh & blood bodies cannot enter or inherit heaven. Yet our bodies must be reconciled aswell.

    The Bimah(Bema seat)
    bema
    ˈbiːmə/
    noun
    the altar part or sanctuary in ancient and Orthodox churches. the podium or platform in a synagogue from which the Torah and Prophets are read.
    noun: bimah

    But, many can look forward to the Jewish Temple & perhaps see if that saves them….

    Be Blessed
    Roberto

    “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

  • Roberto

    The Post & Mid tribers are thin on what the Apostles of the Lord Taught the Church & left the legacy of their letters to all Saints of all generations.

    The Apostles majored on the continual change that Sanctification by His Spirit was to produce in us ,Just read Romans chpt 6. The evidence of the Cross in a persons life was fruits meet of repentance & fruits of Righteousness in the Holy Spirit, in the Born Again experience.

    The Apostles exhorted & encouraged believers in that without Holiness no one shall see the Lord. Paul exhorted ” Dont hold the grace of the Lord in vain”. Read 1st & 2nd Peter!

    2 Peter 3:10-12
    “””10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?”””

    The Apostle of Love John in his first letter at the end of Chpt 2 & start of Chpt 3 States the same things to prepare for His coming for His Church;

    “””28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him”””

    1 John
    Chapter 3

    1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure”””

    The sneeky thing is that they rob themselves & others of this purification process through the Blessed Hope because it seems that they’ll leave it up to the tribulation to do it for them.

    If you are a Son of God you have in you this desire to be changed & be found in His likeness NOW.

    Be Blessed
    Rob

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