Once Saved, Always Saved According To The Bible Doctrine Of Eternal Security

"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)
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The Eternal Security Of The Believer

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. “ John 10:27-30 (KJV)

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Hebrews 10:38,39 (KJV)

In Christian circles, the topic of eternal security is a hotly-debated subject. But we are not so much interested in man’s opinion as we are in what the bible has to say about Eternal Security. So any sincere treatise on eternal security must first start with a look at salvation, and how it is accomplished.

 

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved

The Lord is gracious, and good to us, much better than we deserve. He is so good to us, that He made sure to make the process by which one is saved unbelievably simple to understand, and simple to do. As I read my bible, I see that there is one thing and one thing only that one must do to be saved, as shown here in Acts 16:

“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:30,31 (KJV)

That’s truly all there is to it – an honest and sincere belief within yourself that Jesus is who He said He is, that He is THE Way, THE Truth and THE Life. It’s not complicated, and God purposely set it up that way to make it easy for us. All the work of salvation was done by Jesus Himself. He took upon Himself the punishment for our sins as well as the sins themselves, and went to ther cross and paid for every sin that would ever be committed throughout history. And when you, by faith, BELIEVE that sincerely in your heart, then the price He paid is applied to YOUR sin debt, and your salvation is secured forever. In fact, the bible says that you are not simply secure, but also “sealed” until the Day of redemption.

You are eternally secure because you have been sealed at salvation

“That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)

Dear one, you are not kept saved because of your good works, or because you read your bible, or because you’re nice to people, or anything else. You are saved and sealed by the works of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection, and by the power of the Holy Spirit. This makes sense as you did nothing to earn your salvation, so why would you think you could do anything to keep it? Jesus is the Good Shepherd, and as such the responsibility to keep all the sheep safe are His, not the sheep’s. The whole reason why sheep need a Shepherd is because they cannot do it themselves.

Forever Safe in the Master’s Hands

One of the strongest passages for eternal security is found in the gospel of John, chapter 10, where we read this –

“I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.” John 10 (KJV)

Please go back and reread that passage selection, and let His words and promise to keep to safe eternally sink down deep into your ears, and into your hearts. Jesus promises here that once you are in His Hand, nothing, nothing, nothing anyone can do can put you out of it. He says that “neither shall ANY” take you out. Thats everyone. That includes all external forces like the world, the flesh and the Devil, and internal forces like ourselves. Now if your church teaches something different, don’t get mad at us. We are just going by what the bible says.

And not only are we safe in the hands of God eternally, we are more than just “in his hand”, we are also part of His body.

“For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” Ephesians 5:30-32 (KJV)

That is the state of the true believer in Jesus Christ, that we are part of His flesh, a part of His bones. He is not only holding us in His hands, we are grafted into His very body. Nothing exists in this universe or any other that is capable of undoing that. You think you can sin your way out? How? ALL your sins are already paid for at Calvary. All of them. But there is one thing that you can lose, and that is fellowship with our Lord.

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Sealed Until The Day Of Redemption

When we become saved, there is also another action that takes place that many Christians who do not study their bible may not be aware of. The sealing of the believer so that they can never fall away. Please note the following verses that discuss the sealing of the believer:

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13,14 (KJV)

“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” Ephesians 4:30 (KJV)

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.” 2 Corinthians 1:20-22 (KJV)

Read those verse very carefully, can you see that you are sealed? Remember when Noah and his family got into the ark, what did God do? He sealed them in so they couldn’t change their mind once the journey got rough. And it got very rough.

Thats how much God loves us, He has given us a complete salvation. Not a salvation that is part His works and part your works. Thats not biblical salvation by a long shot.

Fellowship and the Judgement Seat of Christ

Scoffers who disallow the eternal security that the bible clearly teaches mockingly say that the doctrine of eternal security is a license to sin, and that is completely untrue. Eternal security is a promise from God to keep those that are His, and as such it is a great comfort to all true believers. But a license to sin? God forbid. If the Christian backslides and becomes a prodigal son, there is something that they absolutely lose for a time, and that is fellowship with the Lord. Note the following on the prodigal son –

“And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.” Luke 15:13 (KJV)

When the prodigal son took his inheritance and went out to revel in sin, the first thing he had to do was to leave his father’s house. The father would not keep him there against his will, that’s not love. If you, as a believer in Jesus, backslide and go out into the world, you are free to do so. The son wanted to go join the world, the father whom we can imagine with tears in his eyes, let him go have at it. And Luke goes on to describe the sins that the son fell into. But all the while that the son was engaged in sin, he lost the sweet, intimate fellowship he had with his father. But when did he stop being his father’s son? Never.

We all know the story…he spends all his money on booze, whores, nightclubs, dancing and whatever else he could find, until he has nothing. His new-found friends turn on him, he’s broke, hungry, and winds up feeding the pigs when all of a sudden he has an idea –

“And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.” Luke 15:17-19 (KJV)

What’s his great idea? To return to where is is truly and eternally loved…in his father’s house. So he shakes the dust off and returns at full speed to find his father. And what does he find when he gets back to his father’s house? He finds this –

“And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.” Luke 15:20 (KJV)

He ran back to find his father only to discover that the father was already looking for him to return, and when he did come back it was a joyous reunion with a full restoration of fellowship. But he lost a few things along the way. He took his inheritance and wasted it. He lost his testimony. And he lost all that time that he could have been with his father. But he did not lose his position as his father’s son, that is eternally secure. Another reason that the true believer in Jesus Christ knows that eternal security is not a license to sin is the Judgment Seat of Christ.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.” 2 Corinthians 5:10,11 (KJV)

When we stand before the Lord, we will be judged on how we lived our lives, the things we said and the things we did, as it says in Matthew –

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.” Matthew 12:36 (KJV)

The bible says that even as saved Christians, we will sin again. But the Christian who falls into a sin is sealed, and while they may lose fellowship with the Lord, like the prodigal they remain sons and daughters of the Father. Charles Spurgeon said it like this –

“When he was yet a great way off, his father saw him.” It was not with icy eyes that the father looked on his returning son. Love leaped into them, and as he beheld him, he “had compassion on him”; that is, he felt for him. There was no anger in his heart toward his son; he had nothing but pity for his poor boy, who had got into such a pitiable condition. It was true that it was all his own fault, but that did not come before his father’s mind. It was the state that he was in, his poverty, his degradation, that pale face of his so wan with hunger, that touched his father to the quick. And God has compassion on the woes and miseries of men.

They may have brought their troubles on themselves, and they have indeed done so; but nevertheless God has compassion upon them. “It is of the Lord’s mercies that we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not.” We read that the father “ran.” The compassion of God is followed by swift movements. He is slow to anger, but He is quick to bless. He does not take any time to consider how He shall show His love to penitent prodigals; that was all done long ago in the eternal covenant. He has no need to prepare for their return to Him; that was done on Calvary. God comes flying in the greatness of His compassion to help every poor penitent soul.” Spurgeon Archive

It is the heart’s desire of every blood-bought believer in Jesus Christ to live right, think right, do right and be right. But when we fall short, as we all will do to varying degrees, the bible assures and reassures us that our loving, Heavenly Father is waiting for us with kisses, and full restoration to fellowship with Him, if we will only repent of the sin that dragged us down, and run with all abandon back to the Father’s house.

There is so much more to teach on this topic, but for now grasp by faith the simple and amazing promise of God towards us to never, ever let us go.

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • joe

    Absolutely correct. I don’t understand preachers with doctorates who have never figured this out. Traditions are hard to break.

    • Amen!

    • Truth Seeker

      So, what category do you put a person in,according to the Bible; when God says they have committed the “unpardonable sin.” Experienced this with a person who knew and was taught the Word of God. I was told to divorce him because he had committed this sin. He became abusive; was in adultery; and would not care for his own family unless we did exactly as he wanted. He has a four year degree from a Baptist Bible College. Tried to prove me wrong on many things because I am a Christian that hears from God. Actually think he was jealous of God. He went to the church and my parents and lied to them about me. I was forced to walk away and start a new life with my three children;raising them by myself. Told me years later that he does not know why he did those things and that I was a good wife. He knows what he lost. Children see him maybe once a year. Twenty five years later he looks very old; he is in heart failure; and has no life in him that I can see. I do ask God if he can get through to him before he dies. He has no relationship with God that I can see. Wondering if his fate is sealed or if God can save him on his former commitment many years ago. I believe what God says about “unpardonable sin.” Is it even possible to reverse that consequence?

      • Inasmuch As

        >>>Is it even possible to reverse that consequence?

        If God gives someone over to believe a lie, who are we to try and get him back? We certainly are not greater than God.

        It is possible to go too far. You can sin and sin again but at some point you can’t find your way back. It is error to think that God will forgive anyone YOU choose.

        Once Married~Always Married is a false doctrine directly linked to Once Saved~Always Saved. Both are false.

        Tribulation (a test) comes to test the parties. One stands and the other falls. The one who stands should not feel guilty for the sins of the other because they were his choice.

        1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

        He left you to commit adultery. He left the family by not providing for them. Blessings are for obedience. Cursings are for disobedience. It sounds like he continued in his trespasses and was rewarded for his works. It is the judgment of God. The wicked was cut off and you saw it.

        Ps 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

        Ex 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

        I could write much more on this topic but don’t have time right now.

        • bremertonchristian

          Please don’t because what your saying is ridiculous !

        • Alicia

          Then what you are saying is that what God’s son did on the cross is not sufficient? John 19:30

          • Inasmuch As

            >>>Then what you are saying is that what God’s son did on the cross is not sufficient? John 19:30

            Twist, twist, twist. No, I am not saying that. When people hate the truth for long enough, God will give them over to believe a lie and there is no getting them back.

            Some apostate Christians believe “All dogs go to Heaven” and keep preaching to those sealed in iniquity when they could spend their time doing ministry in fruitful ways.

          • Inasmuch As

            The problem with “All dogs go the Heaven” is that it puts the Christian in control, above God. No one is above God.
            The key phrase below is “if God” v. 25. In some cases, He won’t give them repentance and they are sealed in iniquity.

            2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
            25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
            26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

            They have lightly esteemed the Lord and He has responded. The fear of the Lord is a good thing.

      • Larry Grant

        I, from my understanding of grace, believe that the ‘Unpardonable Sin’ is rejecting the gift of salvation through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Many people do enter death never having accepting his gift or just flat out deciding they want nothing to do with Him.

        • RC Nice

          Larry: The “Unpardonable Sin” is refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to speak through you when you are brought before Satan. This is the 6th seal, 6 trump and the 6 vial. 666 Satan’s numbers. This is where Satan sits in the Holy Place (Jerusalem) pretending to be Jesus. Jesus, will not return until the 7 seal, 7 trump and 7 vial. Many people who believe in the Rapture (most of the world), do not realize that the word is not found in the word of God, in any bible, in any language, anywhere in the world. All sins (except the one listed above) are forgivable, if you ask in faith believing. Many people (due to false teaching) believe that the church will be RAPTURE, although the word does not exist in the word or God and, NOWHERE is it written that the church will be rapture. Rapture where? In the end time, Christ IS the church!! Go in peace and good-will.

          • Abigail Sanders

            Then you must be satan’s messenger.

          • Bert

            You said “Many people who believe in the Rapture (most of the world), do not realize that the word is not found in the word of God, in any bible, in any language, anywhere in the world.” Thats not true. Check the Latin vulgate. The word that we use, rapture, comes from the Latin rapiemur. That’s the word that Jerome used in the 400s when he translated the vulgate. It means to snatch up or snatch away. In Greek, the word is harpazo. I would hope that the next time you choose to make a blanket declaration concerning the word of God that you will do a little fact checking. Have a nice day.

          • Sam Fox

            Mr. Nice, can you show us where the Book says what you said is the unpardonable sin?

            Shepherd’s Chapel teaches that, but it is not true. They have a weird take on the mark of the beast as well. Also they say the same thing about the term ‘rapture’.

            It’s not the word rapture that is the problem, it’s the comparatively new concept that Yeshua is coming back two more times.

            Shepherd’s Chapel does get the pre-tribulation rapture right. Not a bad ministry for a believer who knows the Word. I wouldn’t recommend it for new followers of The Way though.

            At least they don’t say you have to go to their church.

            SamFox

          • Sam Fox

            RC Nice. Actually it’s only in the WESTERN word that people hang on to the PTR. Asian people & now Middle Eastern people know better.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-IqRi6lvrM

            The letter read in the video is by Corrie Ten Boom. It was written sometime in the 70’s I think. What Corrie says about the world is much worse now.

            Now we are on the verge of the mark. There are those now who call for the end of cash. Electronic transfers have been going on for some years now. What is the best option to replace cash? Electronic media.

            See the RFID Chipping article listed at the to

            All nations with a central bank are in a managed, contrived financial crisis. Our central bank is the ‘Federal’ Reserve. It is owned, as all of them are, by private global interests.

            http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-10/citi-economist-says-it-might-be-time-to-abolish-cash

            http://dollarcollapse.com/creeping-fascism/signs-that-the-end-is-near-part-1-the-war-on-cash/

            https://www.google.com/#q=what+will+replace+cash

            Few people of this day are as close to Jesus as Corrie was when she was here. She is a true Christian heroine.

            We need to be ready to die for Yeshua if that is what it comes to. Don’t answer that one lightly. Pray, search deep & really be sure. It is only the Holy Spirit that can enable us to go as far as each of our lives take us. And to die for Yeshua if it comes to that.

            There is only one definitive definition of ‘escape’ in the New Covenant.

            1 Corinthians 10:13 Amplified Bible (AMP)

            13 For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to **bear up under it patiently.**

            I see the landing place as Ps 91. The secret place is our inner relationship with Father, not heaven.

            Get as close to Yeshua & full of His Word & Holy Spirit as you can. Then you don’t have to worry, PTR or not.

            SamFox

      • Alicia

        The only unpardonable sin is the rejection of Christ. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he offered one scrafice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand side of God

        • Mary

          The “unpardonable sin”

          Mark 3:22-30 states,

          “And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, ‘He has Beelzebub,’ and, ‘By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.’ …‘Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation;’ because they said, ‘He has an unclean spirit’” (NKJV, emphasis added / Note: The Pharisees made the same charge in Mat 9:34.).

          • cutman

            thats the way i read it

      • rick

        It sounds like he was sorry for what he did. And you should forgive him. The sins you mentioned are not the unpardonable sin. That sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12 accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan. A person can even speak against the Son of God and still be forgiven.

    • Bill

      So what happens when a saved person takes the mark of the beast?

      • AndrewA

        Question would you take the mark? If not why?

      • Sam Fox

        Bill, Revelation 14

        9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, Whoever pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast’s] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,

        10 He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God’s indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

        11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no respite (no pause, no intermission, no rest, no peace) day or night—these who pay homage to the beast and to his image and whoever receives the stamp of his name upon him.

        12 Here [comes in a call for] the steadfastness of the saints [the patience, the endurance of the people of God], those who [habitually] keep God’s commandments and [their] faith in Jesus.

        There is no distinction any where between Christians & unbelievers.

        Read v 12 over & over till you understand that this does not refer to ‘tribulation saints’. There is NO indication in the original language that there is a different ‘kind’ or ‘type’ of saint that could truthfully lead to the term ‘tribulation saint’.

        A saint is a follower of The Way. All & ANY true follower, no distinction.

        In fact, at BibleGateWay look for the word saint in the Amplified. It’s a very good study.

        SamFox

      • Suez

        A truly born again, spirit filled believer in Jesus Christ, would never take the mark! If you would, your Hell bound according to scripture! Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

    • I have to say my heart was sadden when I saw this title. I disagree with your title stating ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, I disagree with this. No where in the bible does it state this in its entirety. This is mans wording not God. What do you do with the scripture that says pickup your cross daily, work out your own salvation and to make this short choose life or death. We have choices to choose The Lord each day! So if I must choose each day than I am not saved always. That title is grey and can be misinterpreted incorrectly! As a leader of our ministry This title is one I would not choose to defend but actually do a bible study saying this is out of context. If I believe in Jesus live my life according to His ways I do have the choice not to follow Him. It says even the elect will be deceived. If i’m wrong then may the Holy Spirit correct me, but there are other scriptures that speak on people falling away. I post a lot of your news and will continue but I cannot post this. Thank you

    • Ron S

      It seems that there are a lot of people who just can’t accept that salvation is a free gift and we don’t have to do works to be saved. It just seems too good to be true to a lot of people. Maybe it’s something to do with the “Protestant” work ethic that makes some people think they have to earn their salvation in some way. The good news is that it’s a free gift. There is such a thing as a (metaphorical) free lunch after all.

      • Dan

        Ron its always good to see another that understands salvation by grace

        alone. But truly the good news is even those who feel interpretation

        requires works to be saved will inherit Gods kingdom.
        Their being wrong will matter little.

        However, it is ironic that under their interpretation you and I may suffer the consequences of being wrong.

      • Sally J Schlage

        What you say about salvation is true, it is a free gift. This is only part of the truth though. Many scriptures bear out that God’s patience with people does wear out. Getting too close to the edge is repeatedly warned about. God has sealed His people, each one to Himself. My free will can break that bond but no outside force between Him and me will be allowed to. Numerous passages in the N.T. and many examples in the O.T. show that God will allow those He’s had a bond with to fall and even be destroyed. What the state of their souls is in is not known to us but to God. This is more about being in a committed relationship than just “works”. Works ARE a part of the relationship they’re just not based on legalism but out of a true devotion to the One who initiated the relationship.

        • Dan

          Sally , yes you are right but do we really need to point that out.

          I mean if you truly except Christ as Messiah why even go there; its childish.

          Instead I would encourage people to seek more from the bible and truly live knowing the Holy spirit is with you always.

          Look forward to life beyond this body and wake up with a smile knowing this is just the beginning!

          Blessings

          • Sally J Schlage

            Dan, I think that in the world now we’re seeing the results of your philosophy. All Christians will be saved. I like that. However, what to do with all the things that are condemned in Romans 1? The things you read there are coming down on our heads in droves and each one is a stepping stone onto a bigger abomination. Your belief implies that the practitioners of these sins are still saved but their inheritance is in jeopardy. Where do the Scriptures say this? To me it seems that it’s trampling on the blood of Christ and subjecting Him to an open shame. We treat His sacrifice and His condescension in our favor as Holy. To assume anything else is childish.

            How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace Heb. 10:29

          • Dan

            @ Sally

            To me it seems that it’s trampling on the blood of Christ and subjecting Him to an open shame. We treat His sacrifice and His condescension in our favor as Holy. To assume anything else is childish.

            Sally
            Our crucifixion can never be made effective by will or by effort, but
            only by accepting what the Lord Jesus did on the Cross. Our eyes must
            be opened to see the finished work of Calvary. Some of you, prior to
            your salvation, may have tried to save yourselves. You read the Bible,
            prayed, went to Church, gave alms. Then one day your eyes were opened
            and you saw that a full salvation had already been provided for you on
            the Cross. You just accepted that and thanked God. Now salvation and sanctification are on exactly
            the same basis. You receive deliverance from sin in the same way as you
            receive forgiveness of sins.

            For God’s way of deliverance is altogether different from man’s way.
            Man’s way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God’s
            way is to remove the sinner. So many Christians strees over their weakness,
            thinking that if only they were stronger all would be well. The idea
            that, because failure to lead a holy life is due to our impotence,
            something more is therefore demanded of us, leads naturally to this
            false conception of the way of deliverance. If we are preoccupied with
            the power of sin and with our inability to meet it, then we naturally
            conclude that to gain the victory over sin we must have more power. If
            only I were stronger’, we say, I could overcome my violent outbursts of
            temper’, and so we plead with the Lord to strengthen us that we may
            exercise more self-control.

            But this is altogether wrong; this is not Christianity. God’s means of
            delivering us from sin is not by making us stronger and stronger, but
            by making us weaker and weaker. God sets us free from the
            dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying
            him; not by helping him to do anything but by removing him from the
            scene of action.

            We always try to exercise control over
            ourselves , but when once you
            see the truth you will recognize that you are indeed powerless to do
            anything, but that in setting you aside altogether God has done it all.
            Understanding this should bring self-effort to an end.

            The expression “with him” in Romans 6:6 carries of course a
            doctrinal as well as historical, or temporal sense. It is only in the
            historical sense that the statement is reversible.

            The First Step: “Knowing This…”

            We must begin with a very definite knowing’,
            which is not just knowing something about the truth nor understanding
            some important doctrine. It is not intellectual knowledge at all, but
            an opening of the eyes of the heart to see what we have in Christ.

            How do you know your sins are forgiven? Is it because your pastor told
            you so? No, you just know it. If I ask you how you know, you simply
            answer, I know it!’ Such knowledge comes by Divine revelation. It comes
            from the Lord Himself. Of course the fact of forgiveness of sins is in
            the Bible, but for the written Word of God to become a living Word from
            God to you He had to give you “a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the
            knowledge of him” (Eph. 1:17). What you needed was to know Christ in
            that way, and it is always so. So there comes a time, in regard to any
            new apprehension of Christ, when you know it in your own heart, you
            see’ it in your spirit. A light has shined into your inner being and
            you are wholly persuaded of the fact. What is true of the forgiveness
            of your sins is no less true of your deliverance from sin. When once
            the light of God dawns upon your heart you see yourself in Christ. It
            is not now because someone has told you, and not merely because Romans
            6 says so. It is something more even than that. You know it because God
            has revealed it to you by His Spirit. You may not feel it; you may not
            understand it; but you know it. Once you have
            seen yourself in Christ, nothing can shake your assurance of that
            blessed fact.

            Blessings

        • Barry

          Salvation is not free! It was paid for by Christ in full when he suffered and died on the cross and then rose again. When by faith you trust in what He did there, then your sin is imputed to him and he carried it to the cross where it was PAID for in FULL. It is also there, that His righteousness is IMPUTED to the sinners who trust in what he did for them.
          Please! Please! Please… do not bring the filthy rags of your own works of righteousness and try to adorn the cross of Christ with them. You will only end up insulting God!
          I recommend you start reading Spurgeon or listening to Martyn Lloyd Jones to get a better perspective.
          As for making the decision on whether to stay with Christ or not being your choice or not I would say this… were you saved because of His will and calling or your own. Who gets the glory?
          As for me, I was dead in trespasses and sin and not only could not comprehend God, in my very nature I hated Him. Yet before time began, God the Father entered into a covenant with God the Son to save me! I know not why, yet it was in His purposes because if He had not called me by name to know His glory and salvation I would surely have no hope because my sin would remain, and in my sinfulness I would have preferred it that way because I would have loved the darkness.
          Praise Jesus for His undeserved grace and mercy.

      • Sam Fox

        Ron free lunch? Wasn’t to Yeshua. It’s not to us. We have to pay a price to be a real Christian. Many around the globe are paying with their lives as I type.

        Salvation is indeed a free gift we cannot earn or pay for by any means. But once we are saved we must use our time, energy & resources as we take up our cross daily. The old nature must die. I like that part of the ‘price’ we pay.

        I can’t stand that part of me. Thank YOU Yeshua there is less of that than there was some years ago. And there will be even less in the coming years. And, to top it all off, whey You come, return & appear, I & we will ALL be changed at that last day & the ‘old man’ will be 100% gone!!!

        Lunch. Not quite so free, eh?

        SamFox

    • Sam Fox

      Big problem with “Once saved always saved.” Though true to a point;

      This teaching tacitly implies that we lose our free will at salvation.

      If there was no possibility of forfeiting salvation, why are we told the he that endures to the end will be saved?

      I know that no one can take or steal our salvation. NO ONE!

      BUT! A follower CAN choose to walk out of His hand. We CAN be enticed to freely choose to walk away from Messiah & forfeit or salvation.

      Hebrews 6:6
      If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace. {Amplified, from BibleGateWay.com Read the whole chapter to know I am not out of context.]

      We are on the threshold of the beast system mark. Most if not all the groundwork has been set. IMO that is the real reason, next to their spying, that NSA is having their ‘building projects’ going. Why they need so much computing power.

      Note how most of, if not all every nation’s currency is in trouble of one sort or another. Those who own the ‘Federal’ Reserve & all worldwide central banks are crashing physical forms of money so digital electronic money systems can be instituted.

      Then they will have total control.

      There is an app now available to replace credit/debit cards. There are commercials that make fun of people who use cash. The latest round of ‘reeducation’ regarding money has begun! There was a commercial a few years back that showed a guy who went through a store filling his pockets with stuff from store shelves. Looked like he was shoplifting till he walked out the door & every thing in his pockets was recorded wirelessly by the register where the clerk was.

      All that to say, I believe the ‘great falling away’ recorded in II Thess. will be caused when the personal mark comes out. At this time I believe it’s going to be an RFID chip.

      Believers will have to choose sides. The mark comes from satan & his beast system. To take it means those who do so are giving their allegiance to the devil & it’s system. They will be choosing satan to be their god.

      Can Christians take the mark & still be saved? NO!! That’s where Hebrews 6:6 comes in.

      “If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance,… ” [turning or transferring from allegiance to Messiah being my thought.]

      Rev. 14
      9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, **Whoever** pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast’s] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,

      10 **He too** shall [have to] drink of the wine of God’s indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

      11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and **they** have no respite (no pause, no intermission, no rest, no peace) day or night—these who pay homage to the beast and to his image and whoever receives the stamp of his name upon him.

      There is NO wiggle room in those verses.

      Are you ready to face the ‘kings’ & ‘governors’, today’s burrocrats, & tell them to stick the mark where the sun don’t shine? Is your faith ready with extra oil for that scenario? Do you love Father MORE than your children, your wife, yourself? If you love Father 1st & foremost, those can’t be used against you.

      Are you ready to be kicked out of Babylon ALL the way? No way to pay for anything? Do you have the spiritual prowess to tell satan ‘NO! I will follow Messiah now matter where He leads or allows!”? Can you love not your life even to death?

      The PTR won’t save you from this. There is none. Division in the church is a secondary ploy. The PTR was primarily introduced to bring a false security. A false hope. To keep Father’s peeps thinking they don’t have to worry about the mark because we will fly away to heaven. To keep them unprepared for what satan was working toward even before the technology was in place…satan knew what he was doing…be ready to tell him “NO! I will stay with Yeshua NO MATTER WEHAT HAPPENS to me, the world, my family, my stuff…Elohim, The Great I AM, He ALONE is God & HE is MY GOD!!!”

      Read the parable of the wheat & darnel [tares in KJ.] Also where Yeshua says He will raise up ALL His own at the last day. The parable defines last day as the end of the age. Read these in the Amplified for a better look.

      Then read the only definition of ‘escape’ directly stated in the NT in 1 Cor. 10:13. Note the part that says “…with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to **bear up under it** patiently. ”

      That goes with enduring to the end. The end being our death or the end of the age.

      Note that in the parable of wheat & darnel Yeshua HIMSELF says “Let them grow together until the harvest.”, remembering He said the harvest is the end of the age.

      This is a spiritual life & death issue. Please do not take it lightly.

      SamFox

      • Preston

        Good day,

        i have never been on this blog but saw your comment about heb 6. Did you know Heb 6 is actually and eternal security passage??? Yup. This is lengthy, BUT will use scripture to interpret scripture.

        Chapter 5
        Hebrews 6:4-6

        “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (Heb 6:4-6)

        Hebrews 6:4-6 is one of the passages that are used by “religion” to say one can lose his or her salvation. This is a load of dung! Yes, Paul used the word dung, too in the Bible. We have clearly shown that eternal security is prevalent in the scriptures (see previous chapter). We will use 2 Timothy to show that even if a believer loses his faith, he is still saved. Really? Yes, really! Then we will look at Hebrews 6:4-6. The Bible says once one believes/trusts the gospel, he or she is sealed. This is important in relating to 2 Timothy as the writer uses the word “seal” in that passage…

        • Eph 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise.”

        • Eph 4:30: “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption.”

        • 2 Cor 1:21,22: “Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;who HATH ALSO SEALED US, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”

        Now let’s go to 2 Timothy. Note: Timothy is a letter written from Paul to Timothy so the “WE” is referring to BELIEVERS.

        • Verse 11 “It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:”
        • Verse 12 “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:”
        • Verse 13 “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”

        Jesus CAN’T deny himself. We have seen that Jesus promised not to lose one and that nothing will pluck us out of His hand. Again, Jesus CAN’T deny himself. He can’t make promises He doesn’t intend to keep. Let us keep reading.

        “And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and OVERTHROW the FAITH of some” (2 Tim 2:17,18).

        We see that some had their faith overthrown. This MEANS that they believed. Let’s go to the next verse. The first word is NEVERTHELESS. This is the key. The word “nevertheless” means “in spite of”. So some had their faith overthrown… NEVERTHELESS—or in spite of this…

        “NEVERTHELESS the foundation of God standeth sure, having THIS SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity” (2 Tim 2:19).

        Did you catch it? They were STILL SEALED despite their faith being overthrown.

        NOTE: Read the next verses to explain “depart from iniquity”. YES a believer should depart from iniquity. One reason is to build rewards of gold and silver and NOT wood hay and stubble, which will be burned at the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:10-15).

        “But WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him” (Heb 11:6).

        2 Timothy SUMMARY: these people whose faith had been overthrown were producing NOTHING. Their faith was gone! They had no more faith THUS it is impossible to please God (produce). Were they saved? YES – NEVERTHELESS, having THIS SEAL, the Lord knoweth them that are HIS. The Bible CANNOT contradict itself. It can’t say in one place that if a person loses faith he or she is still sealed, THEN say the person lost his or her salvation in another.

        So let’s go back to Hebrews 6:4-6. It reads…

        “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

        The first point that needs to be made is this—this passage is talking about saved people. See the phrases used such as: tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the word of God. These are definitely saved people. So we have saved people who, IF they were to “fall away”, it is impossible to renew them AGAIN unto repentance. STOP for just a second. Where in this passage does it read that such people have lost their salvation? Where’s the example of someone whose faith was overthrown (2 Tim gave an example)? You won’t find it. Why? It is not there. People ASSUME they lost their salvation. All it reads is “it is impossible to renew them AGAIN”. This is a true statement. How? It is quite simple actually. You CAN’T renew AGAIN something that is still renewed or, as 2 Timothy reads, “still sealed”. Heb 6:4-6 is actually an eternal security passage. IF Jesus’s sacrifice was NOT good enough the first time, He would have to come back down here and be crucified again (or afresh). This is what would put Him to an open shame. Look at these other passages in Hebrews.

        “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had BY HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Heb 1:3).

        “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for ALL” (Heb 12:10).

        “But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE for sins FOREVER, sat down on the right hand of God” (Heb 10:12).

        ONE sacrifice, ONE time, for ALL the sins of the world. Hebrews 6 doesn’t seem so scary anymore, does it? Even IF your faith is overthrown you are still sealed. It is IMPOSSIBLE to renew you AGAIN. Jesus promised to never lose you and that nothing will be plucked out of His hand or the Father’s hand. Again, it is impossible for a child of God to be renewed AGAIN. Once you are His child, you are always His child.

        Are you his child? Have you believed the gospel?

  • RC Nice

    As much as you rag on what others believe, you actually come out and say that you believe in eternal salvation. Are you serious. When a person confesses Jesus as there savior, they have a new spirit, but the bible is full of if’s. Judah Iscariot confessed Jesus as his savior, so under your way of believing, he went to heaven. Really.

    • The doctrine of ETERNAL SECURITY was given to Paul by Jesus Christ, it was not known during the time of the gospels. Eternal security is one of Paul’s many “mysteries” that he had charge of teaching to the church. So no, Judas did not have eternal security, he was kept by faith plus works, and his works were no good.

      • Wendy

        I love it!
        GREAT ANSWER, GEOFFREY!!!

        • Sally J Schlage

          Based on this, Judas is out. Is Rick Warren in? I’m guessing he has Eternal Security. His actions shouldn’t have any bearing on his salvation.

          • Inasmuch As

            Sally J wrote:

            Based on this, Judas is out. Is Rick Warren in? I’m guessing he has Eternal Security. His actions shouldn’t have any bearing on his salvation.

            Rick Warren is considered by many to be one of America’s biggest false prophets. See Google for more.

            But maybe you already know that.

          • Mary

            We cannot judge another’s salvation. In fact, we don’t really know whether Rick Warren or any other false teachers have been truly saved to begin with…

      • So why then Paul said in 1 Tim 4:16 “Watch your life & your doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself & your hearers” if we are once saved forever saved. Also, in 2 Tim 1:14 “Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you- guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.”
        Also Heb 3:14 tells us “We have to come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
        Heb 10:26-31 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left but a fearful expectation of judgement & of the raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died w/o mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, & who has insulted the Spirit of Grace? For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ & again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hand of the living God.
        And the LORD JESUS CHRIST said “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away & withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire & burned.” – Jn 15:6

        • Very good answer, we can so sin as to be lost eternally after we have been saved! But if we come to our senses as the prodigal son did through repentance, and turn from sin, God will accept us back into fellowship as the father did the prodigal son. But ” we ” must must be the one who returns to the father! The doctrine that we can do nothing to be lost after we ard saved is a “false doctrine”. Hebrews 10:26-31, Matt. 7:21-23, Gal.5:1-4.

          • Wait a second, you cannot have it both ways. Hebrews 6 says that if you fall away it is IMPOSSIBLE to be restored again. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,”. So that means that if there is no eternal security, then every, single person commenting on the blog is not going to Heaven because we all admit that we have sinned after getting saved. All of us. Now what do you say?

          • Preston

            Dale,

            which do you want me to answer NEXT? Here is Heb 10:26-31.

            Chapter 6
            Hebrews 10:26

            “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins…”

            I obviously know that Bible verse well, having been a smoker (see chapter 1), searching whole heartedly for the truth and what is really the gospel. By looking at it alone, it is a very condemning verse. It causes much panic. I know. It caused me to panic early in my walk. It seems like one can lose his or her salvation by sinning (see eternal security chapter). However, when one looks at the context of what is being said in Hebrews, it turns panic into security. CONTEXT: what is being discussed in this area? It is a letter written to Jewish people that had believed the gospel and were saved. The writer called them “Holy brethren” (Heb 3:1). What was happening? They were going BACK to the Levitical Law. This includes the sacrificing of animals. How does one know this?

            But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of GOATS and CALVES, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for US. For if the blood of BULLS and GOATS, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered HIMSELF without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works TO SERVE the living God? (Hebrews 9:11-13)

            We get a lot from these verses of scripture. First, we don’t get atonement by the shedding of blood from bulls and goats (Old Testament). Second, the writer said, “Obtaining eternal redemption for US”. This means he was writing to saved people. Third, we see that “dead works” don’t save (also see Heb 6). We are not saved by works (Rom 11:6). So QUIT trying to earn salvation by working; they are DEAD works! We are saved by the precious blood of Jesus Christ shed at the cross (1 Cor 15:1-4). However, we do works “TO SERVE” the living God. Salvation is FREE without works (Eph 2:8,9). We serve the Lord because we are ALREADY saved. Salvation and service, always keep them the separate. Hebrews 9 and 10, within the context of the book, we see that these SAVED Jewish brethren were being convinced to go BACK under the Levitical law and the animal, sacrificial system of the Old Testament. The writer is trying to convince them that JESUS was the eternal sacrifice for sin. Go back to Hebrews 1:3.

            “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had BY HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.”

            This is the theme of the book of Hebrews and the issue the writer was attempting to address. Let’s keep going in chapter 9. Later in the chapter, it speaks of Jesus being the sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL. In the Old Testament, the priest entered into the temple every year, but no more. For Jesus has entered into the Holy place to put away sin… AMEN.

            For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God FOR US, nor yet that he should offer HIMSELF often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but NOW once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of HIMSELF. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb 9:24-28)

            In Hebrews 10, you get the same theme.

            But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for ALL. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins FOREVER, sat down on the right hand of God. For by ONE offering he hath perfected FOREVER them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:3,4,8-10, 12, 14)

            Isn’t this one of the most uplifting books in the Bible? I mean, look how many times does it tells us that JESUS was the sacrifice of God, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. How many times do we see ONCE for ALL? How about verse 14 “perfected forever”? YES, I know the other versions read “being sanctified”. I am KJV1611 PREFERRED for many reasons; it reads “are sanctified”. As if this wasn’t enough, the writer, talking to saved people who were leaving Jesus and grace, wants to give assurance to these believers. It does this by saying “for he is faithful that promised”. Salvation IS about Jesus’s promise to us!

            Let us draw near with a true heart in FULL assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (FOR HE IS FAITHFUL THAT PROMISED) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works. (Heb 10:22-24)

            HERE IS THE VERSE: “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” If you read 1 John 3:6 carefully (later in the book), you will see that we are all practicing sinners. Many of the sins Christians commit are willful. Let us now review Romans 7:15-25 to see Paul’s current battle with sin. What I mean by “current” is this—when he wrote Romans, he was currently sinning. Look at the verbs. They are all present tense.

            For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I DO. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:15-20)

            The Greek word for DO in verse 19 is prassw. It means “to practice, to habitually commit”. YES, Paul practiced sin. Sin is sin; whether willful or not. Most sin is willful. What was the willful sin going on here? It was rejecting Jesus’s sacrifice and sacrificing animals in His place. Either way, if we sin after we hear the knowledge of truth, whether willfully or not, there REMAINS NO SACRIFICE FOR SINS. What a TRUE STATEMENT THIS IS. Today, there is NO goat, NO lamb, NO animal sacrifice that REMAINS that can take away sin. Today, there REMAINS no more sacrifice for sin. WHY? The ONCE for ALL sacrifice happened 2,000 years ago by Jesus. This is the CONTEXT of the book! We must look at who the book is written to, what is going on, and the solution. The purpose was convincing saved people who had gone BACK to sacrificing animals that no more animal sacrifices are needed. QUIT doing it! There REMAINS no sacrifice for sin. Their actions were pretty much saying, “Jesus’s sacrifice was NOT good enough.” This belief trods under foot the Son of God (verse 29).

            PERSONAL QUESTION: How many professing Christians do you know who say, “Jesus’s sacrifice was not good enough” by adding to the gospel?

            Many religious people use this passage to say a person can lose his or her salvation. Hog wash! In verse 14 it reads “perfected forever”. If a born again believer is perfected forever, how can he or she lose that salvation?! The religious will always take scripture out of context! Again, He was telling these Jewish brethren who were sacrificing animals, “There remains no sacrifice for sins!” If we continue reading in Hebrews we read that these people believed the gospel and did some things for the kingdom (verses 32-35). Verse 35 is another assurance of salvation verse.

            “Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of REWARD.” Then verse 36 continues, “For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.”

            What is the will of God?

            “…and this is the WILL OF HIM that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40).

            What are the promises of God? Salvation is promised to those who believe on the completed work of Jesus at the cross (that’s FREE a GIFT of God; Eph 2:8,9). REWARDS are promised to those who abide in the faith and bear fruit worthy of repentance (change of mind).
            Have you believed (trusted) in the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice of Jesus or do you believe (trusting) in something else? Maybe you are trusting in what Hebrews calls “dead works”. If you have trusted in this sacrifice of Jesus alone, you are perfected forever (Heb 10:14)

            with respect

      • Gary

        I am honestly on the side when it comes to once saved always saved. I have heard many Baptist pastors teach that it doesn’t matter what you do once you have asked Jesus into your life as you can never lose your salvation. To me this is hyper grace and gives Christians permission to live like the devil with the belief that they will be OK in the end. What about homosexuals who are openly practicing their lifestyle while still maintaining that they are “Christians”. Will they also make it and if so does that mean we now have to accept their sinful lifestyle choice?
        I personally believe you can accept Jesus into your life when you are young but throw Him away when you get older. I have seen many “believers” walk away from God and the bible says in the last days their will be a great falling away from the faith. (1 Tim 4:1). So where these people saved or just acting? Makes you wonder.

      • Geoffrey, there is no salvation outside of the LORD JESUS CHRIST & there is no spiritual growth outside of the LORD. That is why we have to remain in the LORD & He promise that if we do so He will remain in us, Jn15:4. The righteous will live by faith Hab 2:4; that is, by faith from the beginning till the end,Ro 1:17. If you think you are standing firm be careful that you do not fall, 1Cor10:12. And in 1Cor15:2, ‘By this gospel you are save if you hold firmly to the word…’Ro 11:21, ‘For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.’Jn 15:2,’He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit He trims cleans so that it will be even more fruitful.’ 1Pe4:17, ‘It is time for judgement to begin in the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?’2Pe1:10, ‘Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling & election sure. For if you do these things you will never fall.’ 2Pe3:17,18 …be on your guard so that you you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men & fall from your secure position; but grow in the grace & knowledge of our LORD & SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST….’
        Once saved forever saved will only lead to antinomianism. The LORD tells us to be careful, watchful & prayerful all the time not to be saved but to guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you & me by the help of the HOLY SPIRIT who is in us.
        I love your many articles brother but I’m sorry to tell you,
        ‘once saved forever saved’ is a dangerous doctrine and a false one.

        • Have you ever sinned since you’ve been saved? Be honest….

          • Tess

            I had not read that so I googled from a source

            While we cannot be absolutely certain why Judas betrayed Jesus, some things are certain. First, although Judas was chosen to be one of the Twelve (John 6:64), all scriptural evidence points to the fact that he never believed Jesus to be God. He even may not have been convinced that Jesus was the Messiah (as Judas understood it). Unlike the other disciples that called Jesus “Lord,” Judas never used this title for Jesus and instead called him “Rabbi,” which acknowledged Jesus as nothing more than a teacher. While other disciples at times made great professions of faith and loyalty (John 6:68; 11:16), Judas never did so and appears to have remained silent. This lack of faith in Jesus is the foundation for all other considerations listed below. The same holds true for us. If we fail to recognize Jesus as God incarnate, and therefore the only One who can provide forgiveness for our sins—and the eternal salvation that comes with it—we will be subject to numerous other problems that stem from a wrong view of God.

          • just a servant

            Brother, there is no difference. We all have sinned & come short of the glory of God, Ro 3:23, even after receiving the LORD JESUS CHRIST as our LORD & SAVIOR. I sinned in my thoughts, in my heart, in my speech & even in my actions unknowingly & knowingly everyday. I have to constantly examine my self & seek the LORD JESUS CHRIST in repentance(2PE3:9) as I confess my sins & ask HIM to forgive me for my sins,(1JN1:8-10;1JN2:1,2); humbling myself in the sight of the LORD (JA4:10)& so as not miss the grace of GOD (HEB12:15). We have to continue to ‘press toward the goal to the prize of the high calling of God in CHRIST JESUS'(Php3:14),who is our only hope, our Blessed Hope(TI2:13) & continue in HIS goodness,(RO11:22). Without the LORD JESUS CHRIST in our lives we can do nothing; we have to continue to hope in Him & live in Him. Brother, I’m longing for His coming & He is our only hope that is why we have to purify ourselves in Him as He is pure (1JN3:3).
            I love you brother. Please do not misunderstand my previous comments. I’m just telling you what I believe based on the WORD of GOD that there is no such thing as ‘once saved forever saved.’ I am still a sinner that is why we have to continue to trust in the LORD JESUS CHRIST from ‘first to last.’

    • Corey

      Please post scritpure where Judas proclaims Jesus to be his savior.

  • Michael Brown

    Praise and honor and glory to God our Father and His Everlasting Son Jesus Christ for our Salvation!

  • Jman

    The road is narrow into the gates and I sure don’t want to have that door shut on me!!!
    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Acts 2:38 KJV

    https://youtu.be/G6LXshQf2i0

  • John

    As believers, can we still commit the unpardonable sin ?

    • Abigail Sanders

      What is the unpardonable sin?

      • eddie santana

        See my response to John, Abigail

        • TeresaB

          The unforgivable sin is ascribing the works of the Holy Spirit to
          Satan. I forgot where it says that but it’s clear.

      • Suez

        @ John It may be this John. I’m not positive, but: Mar_11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
        I would say UN-forgiveness is a biggy!!!! He said if you didn’t forgive, you wouldn’t be forgiven. If your not forgiven, I would say you would be on your way to the smoking section….:}

        • The unpardonable sin, according to Jesus, is blasphemy against the Holly Spirit, Matt.12:31!

        • Preston

          Suez,

          we both agree that the bible CANNOT contradict itself. Here are 2 verses,

          And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross” (Col 2:13,14).

          “And by him all that believe are justified from ALL THINGS, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses” (Acts 13:39).

          Either a believer is justified from all things and forgiven “all” or they are not??????

          That in Matt 11, i believe, is about “temporal” forgiveness and and eternal forgiveness (justification). There are consequences for sin TO the saved (sealed) believer, but hell is never one of them, as that is a gift. IF, the saved believer does not forgive, i believe this gives satan access to “mess” with us as God wont forgive us (temporally). BUT the bible states that the believer IS justified from ALL THINGS (including not forgiving).

          with respect,

      • Wendy

        The only sin that is NOT forgiven is saying no to the Gospel.

        • Dan

          Wow Wendy, I had never really understood this passage in the way you have put it.

          I love it !

      • The unpardonable sin is making the Holy Ghost a liar by rejecting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

        Mark 3: 28, Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
        29, But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
        30, Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

        Match that with 1 John 5:3-13 verse 12 puts it in stone…. only the RCC and all Socialist throw those verses out doing so condemns them to HELL.. Bro. Jim “What’s Happing Now Ministries”

    • eddie santana

      John, it depends on the person and their relationship with Jesus. The unpardonable sin is turning one’s back on Jesus and the Holy Spirit’s prompting. If one loves Jesus enough, it won’t happen. Geoff would disagree with me on this, but the question is yes, if you backslide bad enough. The Good News is…you’ll have a second chance after the rapture, but your life will be in danger then.

      • Collin

        Hi Eddie Santana, Wendy, Suez, John and Abigail.

        The term “blasphemy” may be generally defined as “defiant irreverence.” We would apply the term to such sins as cursing God or willfully degrading things relating to Him. It is also attributing some evil to God, or denying Him some good that we should attribute to Him. This case of blasphemy, however, is a specific one called “the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” in Matthew 12:31. In this passage, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that He was possessed by the demon Beelzebub (Matthew 12:24). In Mark 3:30, Jesus is very specific about what exactly they did to commit “the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.”

        Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
        Matthew 12:31 (KJV)

        Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
        But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
        Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
        Mark 3:28-30 (KJV)

    • Abigail Sanders

      Hebrews 10:12,14 -“But this Man [Jesus], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God… For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”

      Jesus finished work on the cross was offered as one sacrifice FOREVER, and when you received Jesus Christ into your life, you were PERFECTED FOREVER! And how long is forever?

      You may be surprised to find out that there are many believers today who do not believe that they have been perfected forever by the finished work of Jesus Christ. They are still depending on their self-efforts to qualify themselves. How can we be fully assured that all our sins have already been forgiven? Notice after Jesus offered His life as a sacrifice and payment for all our sins, He “sat down”! He sat down to demonstrate to us that the work is indeed finished. Under the old covenant the priest never sat down because his work could never be finished. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins. Only Jesus’ work is a finished work…not only did He sit down at the Father’s right hand, He made us SIT WITH HIM.

      • Sam Fox

        Abigail S, there is a difference in being experientially perfected & prophetically perfected. Are you perfect in your experience & life NOW?

        Me neither.

        We must be careful not to latch on to one verse or set of verses that agree with each other at the expense of verses that give more light on a subject.

        To the verse you used, please also connect that we must die daily, daily take up our cross of denying the fallen nature part of ourselves & endure to the end.

        We are not 100% sanctified yet, but are in the process of BEING sanctified. One example, Romans 6:19 Amplified Bible (AMP)

        I am speaking in familiar human terms because of your natural limitations. For as you yielded your bodily members [and faculties] as servants to impurity and ever increasing lawlessness, so now yield your bodily members [and faculties] once for all as servants to righteousness (right being and doing) [which leads] to sanctification.

        If we were perfect now we would not need this verse. Note this agrees with the verse that says we must take up our cross daily. We must free will choose yield our selves daily. That would not be necessary if we were perfected now.

        If we were already perfect NOW, why would we need those other verses? We won’t be totally, experientially perfected until Yeshua returns, comes & appears at the end of the age. If we were perfect now, we would have our new bodies.

        SamFox

        • AndrewA

          That is why Paul says sealed until redemption.

          Jesus has not actively perfected Body only renewed are Spirit the renewal of body comes later in the twinkling of the eye were all the dead or living in Christ are changed given new incorruptible bodies.

          We in are flesh still posses sin but by the Holy Spirit have been sealed in his name and made a part of the Body of Christ. That is why the Author used these verse from Ephesians.

          “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13,14 (KJV)

          “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” Ephesians 4:30 (KJV)

          Paul is not saying when we believe we are made perfect with out sin only that when we are saved we become sealed until the day Jesus transforms us and gives us new perfect bodies by the power of the Holy Spirit that is the point of why we become baptized in the Holy Spirit to renew are spirits and seal us for the day are bodies can be changed.

          I hope this better illustrates the point of the Author and what is being talked about when we say sealed. It is a misconception to think Sealed by the Holy Spirit means made without sin. Sealed in this case means preserved being marked and made ready for later when Jesus is ready to call the Whole church at once all who are dead and living in his name together to meet him in the air.

          It also means indwelt by the Holy Spirit to receive a helper and companion that reveals to us the Truth about God and allows us to have a relationship with God until it is time for Jesus to Call us to him. The Holy Spirit confirms are faith with the Truth so we not just believe but Know what Jesus and everything God has said is in fact true.

    • Alicia

      If you not saved the unpardonable sin is the rejection of Jesus.

  • catherine

    I needed this. Thank you.

  • suez

    .

  • carrierwave

    Great article, Jeffery! Great promise, great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ! This is why our “works” can never, and will never save you. We are saved by FAITH alone through HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS not our’s. Romans 3:25-26. Romans 10:1-4 Phil. 3:9. Romans 8:38-39 another Great promise that NOTHING “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” However this is one of the most attacked doctrines by so-called christians.

    As far as I am concerned, if you think you can lose your salvation, why don’t you STOP trusting in yourself, and put your full FAITH in Jesus Christ and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and end all your doubts! That is the only way you can truly “know that you have eternal life.” (1John 5:13) If you can lose it, then you can never know if you have it!

    • Amen. People who think they can lose their salvation are “working to keep it”, and that is not what Paul preached. Paul preached that Jesus did it all on Calvary, and currently does it all by interceding as our High Priest, and will do it all for all eternity as our Bridegroom in the New Jerusalem.

      • Donna

        James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

        Faith and Deeds

        14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

        18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

        Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

        20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

        25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

        How can this be more clear?

        • Preston

          Donna,

          a paper on James 2. use a KJV.

          Chapter 8
          Faith without works – James 2

          Often when discussing the Bible with the “religious” about salvation, you will hear, “But faith without works is dead”! “What about James 2”? Does James 2 tell us that works are needed for salvation? No, James is simply a book written to “already saved” people exhorting them to do good works. In this chapter we will examine James 2 and the statement: “Faith without works is dead.” First, we need some verses that say we are saved without works.

          • “For by grace are ye SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8,9).

          • “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of WORKS? NAY: but by the law of faith” (Rom 3:27).

          • “But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Rom 4:5).

          • “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS” (Rom 4:6).

          • “NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5).

          • “And if by grace, then is it NO MORE OF WORKS: otherwise grace is NO MORE grace. But if it be of works, then it is NO MORE grace: otherwise work is no more work” (Rom 11:6).

          I think you get the point. We are not saved by works. It is clear. Then what about, “Faith without works is dead”? This is a true statement. However, “dead” does not mean “unsaved”. It means “inactive/useless”. Let us start with verse 14.

          “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” (James 2:14).

          The first part of this verse uses the word “profit”. We have already seen that salvation is a gift (Rom 5:15-20) and not of works. As a result, you cannot “profit” salvation. In the second part of the verse, James asks his saved brethren, “Can faith save him”? Well, the answer is no. Stay with me! The question we need to ask is, “Save them from what?” It is not from hell, as James is writing to believers—they are already saved (use of bretheren in James 1:2). Hell is not mentioned one time in James. What are they being saved from? Judgment (see verse 13). Faith will not save a believer from judgment. There are two other forms of judgment mentioned in the Bible.

          • The chastening hand of God. God will discipline His own. (Heb 12:5,6)

          • The Judgment Seat of Christ where our works are tested. (1 Cor 3:10-15)

          Let’s go to verse 18. Before I start, we have to realize who is speaking. IT IS NOT JAMES. Seriously! James has created a fictional character that begins to speak… sort of like me telling you a joke: “one guy said to the other”; I have just created two fictitious men. How do we know this? Verse 18 starts with, “ye a MAN may say”. James didn’t say, “Verily I tell you” or “I say unto thee”. James creates a fictional man (ye a MAN may say). It is this man that is now talking. James actually calls the man vain in verse 20. I will substitute Bob for “man” to show clarity.

          Yea, Bob (a man) may say, “Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble but wilt thou know, O vain Bob (man), that faith without works is dead? (Taken from James 2:18-20)

          Yes, it is HUMAN VAINITY that thinks we have anything to offer God for salvation. The Bible is clear. Salvation is a FREE GIFT to anyone who believes the simple gospel message.

          Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (verse 21)?

          The same question we asked about the word “save” in verse 14 is the same question we need to ask in verse 18. The question is, “Justified before whom?” It is NOT God.

          “What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but NOT before God” (Rom 4:1,2).

          WORKS justify us before Man. Man looketh on the outward but God knoweth the heart (1 Sam 16:7). On to verse 22, which reads:

          “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.”

          Remember Jesus’s ministry. He said to his disciples many times “ye of LITTLE faith”, while telling the Gentile centurion “I have seen no GREATER faith than this”? From this we know that there are different levels of faith. WORKS bring faith to perfection. Notice the word, “perfect”. We see this word “perfect” when talking about works in 2 Tim 3:16,17.

          “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

          NOTICE, “the man of God” (already saved) may be perfect unto all good works. This is not saying that any flesh can be perfect. It is saying we are to be prepared unto all good works. This is confirmed in Titus.

          “This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men” (Titus 3:8).

          I hope this helped explain “faith without works is dead”. It is a true statement. Faith that does not work is “useless or inactive”. It doesn’t profit anything. It is not saying that works are necessary FOR salvation as that would contradict so many passages of scripture. FAITH ALONE in the gospel of Jesus saves from hell, but without works, that “saving faith” is unprofitable; it is “useless”. It will not produce anything. This is book written to exhort people who are already saved to do good works.

      • rick

        Excellent remark Geoffrey. I think people are a little confused on savation, works and rewards. We are not saved by works or can we work to keep it. I Corinthians 3:12 from Dave Hunt’s track OSAS. “every Christians works are tried by fire at the judgement seat of Christ before we must all appear 2 Cor. 5:10. Good works bring rewards, a lack of them does not cause loss of salvation. The person who hasn’t one good work ( all of his works are burned up ) is still saved yet so as by fire ( 1 Cor.3:15 ) We would not think such a person was saved at all. Yet one who has truly received the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior, but has no good works as evidence and may seem outwardly not to be a Christian, is saved as by fire and shall never perish in spite of his lack of works.

  • Abigail Sanders

    Amen Brother Geoffrey, So Be It!

  • eddie santana

    The eternal security doctrine is half right. Yes, a born again believer is eternally sealed with the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit will not stay in a temple that is wrought with sin (See Ezekiel Chapt.18). And yes, “No man can pluck him out of my hand,” but a person can jump out. A person’s salvation is between the Lord and the person, and it’s up to the Lord. But letting a believer sin like the devil and make it to heaven, and a non-believer not make it just because he doesn’t accept Jesus as his Savior is making God a respecter of persons and is a religious scam…it can’t be. If you sin unrepentently, whether you’re a believer or not, you’re not goin’ anywhere. Like Jesus said, “I never knew you.”

    • Thank you Eddie. You are right on point. The apostle Paul who is erroneously credited with introducing the doctrine of eternal salvation, expressed a concern about preaching to others send then becoming a castaway. He KNOW that was possible, if he did not keep his flesh under and keep sin at bay by reaching toward the mark of the higher calling. He advised us all to WORK OUT OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING! I think he knew something about God that the rest of us had to figured. jesus Himself also warned that those who think they are standing should take heed lest they fall. He was not talking to unbelievers, but to His Apostles! Believers all! What do you think Jesus was warning them about? It happened to Judas! Do we then assume that Satan leaves us alone as soon as we become Christians? No he doesn’t. He was attacking Jesus and the Apostles while he was still here bodily! Remember when Jesus told Peter that Satan wanted to sift him as wheat? Now why would he tempt ‘eternally saved’ folk if there was no hope of success in the venture? Think about it. Let’s not take the easy way out. I am not preaching a gospel of works but faith without works is dead. We MUST walk circumspect because we can lose our place on the book of life (Rev. 3:5).

      • Paul did not say “work to stay saved”, he said “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” meaning to work out spiritually like you do in a gym physically. Many saved people have become “castaways” who still go to Heaven when they die. What you need to understand is the DIFFERENCE between your STATE and your STANDING. Your state = saved or lost. Your standing = in or out of fellowship with the Lord.

        • Donna

          “Many saved people have become “castaways” who still go to Heaven when they die.”

          What YOU need to understand is that God will not be mocked!

          See Paul’s letter to the Galatians. He gives us a list of all the sins that will keep people out of Heaven. (Galatians 5:19-21).

          Stop teaching that Paul had a different gospel. Paul himself wrote, “Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.” (Galatians 6:15)

          • NO, Paul did not say that “sin keeps Christians out of Heaven”, he said this: ” Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Our inheritance is our rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, not our salvation. Paul is saying that those things will cause us to lose rewards at the Judgment Seat….

  • Em Bi

    Thank you for this wonderful blessing. It made me whole and surely strengthen my faith. Now I know that I’m truly saved. Before, I was doubting for myself….. How can I be truly saved if I still keep on sinning and by doing so not let the Holy Spirit dwell in me? So I cannot be so sure of my salvation and been trying so hard to not sin. But now i am secured for now I know that God will never let me go. I am sure that I am His. I praise God because of your letter. For He answered very quickly my prayer for I needed Him right now because I’m heart broken and He didn’t failed me. Thank you and may God always bless your ministry and continue to bless others too.

  • Edie Neil

    Thank you for this great reminder, we can’t lose our salvation. As the prodigal’s son, even with his choice to leave his secure home, he was welcomed back into his Father’s loving arms.
    Daily, we view the calamity of the world we live in. This is the best news to help us endure what is before us. We can know, He will never leave us.

  • John

    Eddie, Did King Solomon commit an unpardonable sin with his many wives when it indicates he received 666 talents of gold ? Thanks

    • Sir, King Solomon lived under the Law not under grace alone. 2 Tim. 2:15 should be your memory. There are three kinds of people, Christians, Jews, and Gentiles, The Church under grace NT. OT under the law….Tribulation under the law and grace… Amen Bro. Jim

  • Paul Chastain

    I am highly disappointed in you, Mr. Grider.
    Stop trying to be a Bible teacher and stick to being a reporter. Every good teacher knows to present both sides of the argument. So does every honest journalist. As one who thinks that “once saved, etc.” is a lie straight from hell, you alluded to, but quickly ran past, the one think that sinks eternal security doctrines. And that is this: “if one draw back…”.
    We can turn our back on our salvation and walk away
    and we will NNOT see our salvation in the end. If we turn our backs on God and walk away forever, then we will roast in he’ll forever. End of story. No reprieve.

    • Suez

      @ Paul. THANK-YOU!!! You spoke the truth. I get tired of these kind of posts also. These kind do nothing but cause contention and strife in the body of Christ. I think Mr. Grider must like that, as he post so many of this kind of thing. It has nothing to do with a News or Prophecy reporst!!! Then he “teaches”…Well I know teachers can be wrong, they are just stating their personal opinion on scripture. Doesn’t make it a fact. Your so right Paul! Many so called teachers are leading the blind flock right off a steep cliff!!! May the Lord of Glory help us all, to run and cling to him, stay in his truth, and endure unto the end!!!!! Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
      Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
      Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
      Jesus spoke the parablesMar 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
      Mar 4:3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
      Mar 4:4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
      Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
      Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
      Mar 4:7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
      Mar 4:8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
      Mar 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
      Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
      Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
      Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
      Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
      Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
      Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
      Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
      Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
      Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
      Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
      Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
      Mar 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?
      Mar 4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
      Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
      Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
      Mar 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.
      Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
      Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
      Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
      Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
      Mar 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
      Mar 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
      Mar 4:32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
      for a reason. People would do well to read them and ask for wisdom to understand them… I say it depends on where your seed landed!!!! And what you allow to happen to it! 🙁

      • Wendy

        I am a Born-Again Believer, by God’s grace, and a disciple of my Lord. I study the Word. I believe wholeheartedly what Geoffrey has stated is the Truth of the Good Book. Why should he wrote both sides when He believes THIS to be The Truth….and a very important one at that.

        Personally, I’m thankful that he is writing on some of the important doctrines in these end times. (This may be the only Bible some people may ever read!”) I’m sure he doesn’t choose what he writes about casually, but instead with much prayer.

        Interesting topic in that many of you with whom I normally agree with so often I find now at odds with my belief.

        Just want you all to know that I love ya anyways~~

    • James Montgomery

      Paul Chastain we are talking about the Word of God here. There is only one side to it. That means anyone with the wrong interpretation is wrong in the word. Mr. Grider posted the needed scriptures to show the Word of God. I do not like using the term, ‘truly saved’ because you are either saved or not saved. Truly saved does not save you any more that saved. And if one is saved they are sealed by the Holy Spirit. But we will still sin but abhor sin and when we do we ask for forgiveness. Also, apparently you have never listened to Mr. Grider’s radio broadcast where you would see he is a teacher.

      • Heather

        Mr. Montgomery :
        Mr. Chastain here. I said that Mr Grier should stick to being a journalist, and I stated why. Any good teacher will present both sides. Mr. Grinder did not do that. As one who has taught college level courses, I can say what I said with all validity. I stated that Mr. Grider glossed over what he didn’t believe in, which a lot of teachers do. HE IS STILL WRONG for doing that. Sorry if I offended your sensibilities.

      • Dan

        Why is it so hard for some of you to understand that Jesus did not die for the sins you commit ?

        Jesus (GOD) took the place of Adam and this is what makes you acceptable to GOD.

        Its the fact we come from Adam that makes us unacceptable to GOD people.

        We all have choices everyday and we will suffer or enjoy the consequences of our actions. The consequences are the only thing you get from it. Because other than the action of giving yourself to Christ you do not gain or lose your salvation because of your actions.

        The issue of blasphemy to the Holy Spirit I think is the same as the question of what if I do this or what if I do that will I lose my salvation?

        Why would you purposely do anything to offend GOD ? Quit being ridiculous .

        Blessings

    • Bart

      I actually agree with you. These seal the author speaks up can be broken the moment we no longer accept Jesus as our savior and go back to doing wrong without care.

      To me the John 10 verse is understood very differently from me. I grew up a Catholic and hated it. I believed in a God, but did not know any truth of him because I didn’t read the bible or even listened to preachers in church. I had morals which came from my own head. One day a Christian told me to read the bible myself instead of listening to preachers and it surprised me.

      My morals dead on with biblical teachings and the parts I hated about the Catholic church were completely exposed within the bible. It was so surprising to me that it was supernatural. Now me saying all this, read that verse again and you can see that you’ll take it much differently now.

    • Dan

      @ Paul C
      We can turn our back on our salvation and walk away
      and we will NNOT see our salvation in the end. If we turn our backs on God and walk away forever, then we will roast in he’ll forever. End of story. No reprieve.

      Who would do that Paul ? Even if it were true; what Christian would willingly turn their back on God.

      Its a childish agrument Paul ! GRoW uP brother !

  • Paul

    we will roast in he will????? forever?

    • Dan

      @ Paul, the above post is not mine. But, I did tell someone to grow up on

      one of my posts today.

      Hmmmm, could it be Kimmie; Shame shame shame ! Laugh : )

  • Jim Eckland

    Jesus said more than once: To Repent and Believe” not just believe. The question becomes.” Did that person really approach the LORD with a Repentent heart?

    • Derrick

      I believe this is an important distinction. Another way of asking is this (which I heard from a Pastor) … “we hear of people back-sliding and losing their salvation but I wonder, did they ever slide forward in the first place?”

    • Preston

      Jim

      a paper on the word “repent”

      Chapter 11
      Meaning of the word “repent”

      We have seen that “repent of your sins” is actually another gospel that does NOT save. It puts a person under the law. What does the Bible mean when it says to “repent”? Here are a few points and passages that will help explain the true definition of the word “repent”.

      • POINT 1: in the KJV1611 the phrase of “repent of your sins” is NOT in the Bible anywhere. The word “repent” IS in the Bible, but NOT “repent of sins”. Someone ADDED the “of sins” phrase.

      • POINT 2: In the Old Testament, God repented several times. Did God “turn from His sins”? Jonah 3:10 says, “And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and GOD REPENTED of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”

      • POINT 3: Repent in the Greek is metanoia, it means to “think differently; to change your mind”. God simply “changed His mind”.

      • POINT 4: one does need to REPENT. One MUST change his or her mind FROM anything he or she THINKS is going to save him or her TO the gospel.

      • POINT 5: LET’S take a look at three passages of scripture the “religious” use to say one MUST repent of his or her sins.They are in Matthew, Luke and Acts.

      “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying, REPENT YE: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt 3:1,2).

      The religious will say, “SEE, you must turn from your sins (REPENT)”. Remember, it does not read “of sins”. The answer to this passage is Matthew 3:9, which reads,

      “And THINK NOT to say within yourselves, ‘We have Abraham to our father’: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

      Do you see it? These people were THINKING that just because they had Abraham as the father of their culture (Jewish), they were “automatically” saved. They were THINKING the WRONG thing. They needed to “change their minds; think differently”! They needed to “repent”.

      Jesus said, “I tell you, nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).

      The religious would say, “SEE, you must repent (turn from your sins).” What does the Bible say? Go back and read the verse that comes before, then the verse that comes after it. You will SEE the problem.

      “And Jesus answering said unto them, SUPPOSE YE that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?” (Luke 13:2).

      “Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, THINK YE that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?” (Luke 13:4)

      We CLEARLY see that they were THINKING (suppose ye) they were righteous because they were NOT sinners like the ones whom were killed. They needed to SUPPOSE OR THINK something different. They needed to “change their minds” (repent). I believe most professing Christians fall into this category. Because they have turned from many sins, they THINK they “are not sinners like most”. These folks need to repent (change their minds) and believe the gospel or they, too will perish.

      We also have the word “repent” in Acts many times. One such instance is in Acts 3:19 which reads,

      “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins maybe blotted out.” Now go back a few verses and read 13-18.

      There, Peter is telling Jewish people that they crucified their promised Messiah. Verse 14 reads that they denied Him. Peter was simply telling them to change their minds about who Jesus really was and to be converted so their sins would be blotted out—change your mind and be converted.
      We see, through analyzing scripture, “repent” simply means “to change your mind, to think differently”. When Jesus said, “Repent and believe the gospel”, He was telling them to “change their minds” and believe the gospel. Did they change their minds? Some did, but for the most part, the answer is “no”. How do we know? They crucified Him. PERSONALLY, if I hear one more preacher tell people they must “repent of their sins” to go to heaven, I think I am going to bang my head up against the wall! THEN I’ll bandage myself up and continue proclaiming the REAL gospel.

      with respect,

  • And O God, how so very grateful we are for your unspeakable gift! Praise God! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

    • Wendy

      AMEN AND AMEN, Patricia!!

      • Heather

        Amen! The point is, lets make sure we are right with the Lord Jesus Christ because He is soon to return. I believe MUCH SOONER than we realize! We live in exciting times and as time is passing by I am becoming that much more excited because I know He is just a couple steps away from opening the DOOR!

  • eddie santana

    Solomon apparently did not commit the unpardonable sin, since he remained in the genealogical line of the Messiah. Now his son Rehoboam apparently did, because he was not included in the Messiah’s line.

  • Inasmuch As

    >>>Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:30,31 (KJV)

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    So devils believe and tremble. Most in the church today don’t have sense enough to tremble. The fear of the Lord is the beginning…”

    Once Saved Always Saved/Eternal Security is false. Antinomianism is also false. To antinomians Jesus will say, “I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work “lawlessness” (Antinomianism)” Matt. 7:21-23. You would have to go back many decades to find a church that holds to the true gospel of holiness and obedience. See The Antinomians_are_Coming! http://www.bereanpublishers.com/the-antinomians-are-coming/ A.W. Tozer warned of this:

    “In his late book, Paths to Power, A.W. Tozer defined it this way. “Fundamental Christianity in our times is deeply influenced by that ancient enemy of righteousness, Antinomianism. The creed of the Antinomian is easily stated: We are saved by faith alone; works have no place in salvation; conduct is works, and is therefore of no importance. What we do cannot matter as long as we believe rightly. The divorce between creed and conduct is absolute and final. The question of sin is settled by the Cross; conduct is outside the circle of faith and cannot come between the believer and God. Such in brief, is the teaching of the Antinomian. And so fully has it permeated the Fundamental element in modern Christianity that it is accepted by the religious masses as the very truth of God. Antinomianism is the doctrine of grace carried by uncorrected logic to the point of absurdity. It takes the teaching of justification by faith and twists it into deformity.”

    The significance of being antinominian, which means “lawlessness; without, opposed to or against laws, standards, or rules of moral conduct,” is that Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” Those who love him do. Those who hate Him don’t. God withholds understanding to those who don’t obey Him. Those who have been duped into thinking they don’t have to do anything are Antinomians ripe for deception and have fallen for the lie.

    Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

  • eddie santana

    Oh! And don’t forget the parable of the sower! Here is one of my facebook posts on the very subject. Hope you enjoy!

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/eddie-santana/what-kind-of-soil-does-your-heart-have/10152841708492531

    • Wendy

      Hi Eddie, May this find you well and joyful! I did read your Facebook Post….indeed, you write very well.

      I must say, however, that I STILL agree with Geoffrey and for the reasons he stated. Would love to discuss it with you but my mind has been on a multitude of fires concerning the forest town I live in.

      Peace be with you!

  • James Montgomery

    Geoffrey, thanks for that link to the works of Spurgeon. I bought 10 volumes of his sermons. I am just about finished his first volume. Shortly after I did I found out there were a total of 63 volumes and that he had also written some books and educational papers. Now after going to the link you provided that there are even more sermons.

  • eddie santana

    That’s awesome. Thank you!

  • AndrewA

    All I can say is Romans ch 11 verse 33-35

    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

    34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

  • Drew

    Geoffery Grider

    You said Judas was saved by faith and work. And that his works were no good therefore he did not have eternal security. As you say this was all before what Paul presented… So what about the man next to Jesus on the cross? Did he not make it then sense he had no works? You see, that whole explanation is erroneous.

    Also, like someone above already mentioned, you can jump/walk/run out of God’s hand. You are making the assumption that no one can jump or walk away. However, the verse implies no such idea. It says what it says and means what it says. “No one can pluck you out.” It does not say that YOU can’t choose to leave. Otherwise we would lose our free will once we became chose to follow Jesus.

    Follow is the key word, not followed. It is a continuous present lifestyle, not a one time past act of faith. And even the demons believe in God. You leave out all the context and other commands to repent, follow, carry your cross, etc. The Word needs to come in a full meal deal, not whatever verse needed to twist a doctrine.

    Look at the passage of the vine and the branches. Israel was cut off, though they can and some will be grafted back in, do you not think gentiles can’t be cut off? Why does the Word give soooo many warnings against apostasy? Because it’s impossible? No, it gives warnings because it can happen.

    Once saved always saved is a dangerous doctrine indeed. By grace, through faith, plus nothing. It is totally erroneous.

    Please explain why you make the assumption that no one can walk or leave God’s hand? I don’t see that statement in the verse. Did I mention also that God Himself can spit you out?

    Revelation 3:16 – So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

    It’s funny you mention the “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” verse. As it says, His sheep “follow” Him, not once followed Him one time in the past. But presently follow, as the word itself defines, present tense. Also, His sheep hear His voice and follow. If someone wants to decide to live for themselves and a sinful lifestyle what sacrifice for sins is left? But a fearful expectation of judgement.

    Hebrews 10:29 – How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    By which he was sanctified! Saved!And don’t start with that was only for or to the Hebrews. There is neither Jew nor Gentile. What is sin for one is sin for another. NO ONE can trample under foot the Son of God, without a severer punishment than one who never did believe.

    The once saved always saved doctrine is filled with more twistings and turnings than a blacksmith shop during a war.

    On a side note, Geoffery, I appreciate this site and your overall work for Christ and presenting the gospel and end times developments. It is doubtless you are doing a lot for Christ. Keep up the good work, other than this article. Lol

    • Suez

      Amen on all accounts!!!

    • J

      It never ceases to amaze me how many people attempt to eliminate God’s promise of eternal security simply because they reject God’s commandment to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15 KJV). In the body of Christ the believer is BORN AGAIN.Can a man be unborn from the corruptable seed of his father and mother?!? OF COURSE NOT! How much so after ye are born of UNCORRUPTABLE SEED (1 Peter 1:23 KJV). Read JOHN 3.

      Saying that it is possible for the born-again believer to “jump out of Christ” is like saying that a person can naturally “jump birth mothers”.

      • Drew

        J

        We can be cut off and thrown into the fire just like the branches in the book of John. Israel are the chosen people of God and
        many have been cut off. We have been grafted in. If Israel can be cut off due to lack of faith then so can we.

        Also, Jesus is uncorruptible. We, however, are not uncorruptible until we die as a follower of Christ and go be with
        Christ. Of course we get our uncorruptible bodies at the rapture.

        Faith is the condition of God’s saving grace. We as humans with free will can at any time leave the faith.

        Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

  • Drew

    Philippians 2:12 – Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Although, with the once saved always saved fallacy, there’s no need to work anything out or fear and tremble. I guess God is just wasting His and our time with all the warnings against apostasy and exhortations of continuing in the faith and remaining sober, vigilante, temperate etc…

  • Drew

    1 Timothy 4:1 – Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    No amount of twistings and turnings can undo this clear verse.

    Or John 15

    John 15

    1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
    2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
    3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
    8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
    9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

    The exhortations and warnings are clear. IF you abide in me, and my words abide in you…Being cut off and thrown into the fire is clearly falling away from Christ. You can’t be cut off from the Vine/God unless you are first saved.

    • Suez

      Amen Drew! I swear they are blinded.

    • LIONESS

      God bless you this doctrine once saved and always saved is of the devil is not of God for with out holiness no body will see the Lord for we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound God forbid and any branch that was once in him that bear no fruit he cast away Jesus told us the parable of the sower and the seed may the lord help all of us in Jesus name

    • Sam Fox

      Father will never, on HIS own, repudiate or take away our salvation. NO power any where can take us from His hand. That is absolute.

      However, we CAN be enticed to walk out of His hand. The coming mark may well be the cause of the great falling away.

      Hebrews 6:4-7 Amplified Bible (AMP) V 3 calls these verses “advanced teaching.”

      4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,
      5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,
      6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

      v4–restore & bring AGAIN to repentance. Once & for all enlightened & tasted. Sharers of the Holy Spirit.

      v5–FELT how good the Word of God is

      Sounds like Christians to me.

      v6–goes along with the great falling away in 2 THess. If they THEN deviate FROM THE FAITH here is the key: AND TURN FROM THEIR ALLEGIENCE. It is impossible to bring them BACK to repentance.

      Turn from their allegiance = dedication & to & love for Messiah. Taking on another as their God also.

      It is very clear; Christians CAN RECANT & forfeit, GIVE UP, CAST AWAY, THEIR SALVATION. Father won’t take it from any one. It has to be repudiated. I think that Father has taken some early to keep them from going that far. He is so merciful.

      This is also another unpardonable sin. There is not just one. Another is rejecting the Gospel & Messiah then dying in an unrepentant state.

      SamFox

  • Drew

    1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Yet another exhortation, I suppose it’s worthless and pointless to the once saved always saved crowd.

  • Drew

    Amen Drew!!! OSAS is a false doctrine. Jesus gives us the free gift of salvation, BUT then we better cling to him in all or ways, and lean upon him forever, praying that we stay strong in the faith!!!

    • If that’s how you stay saved, then you have a WORKS based salvation, and that is not what the Apostle Paul preached.

      • Inasmuch As

        That is not works. That is normal Christian living.

        1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

      • LIONESS

        Geoffrey king Saul when he was anointed the spirit of God was with him but when he sinned the spirit of God left him he did not repent and in that backsliding state he sought for witches God destroyed him shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound God forbid for he that says i know him and keepeth not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him and if we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth these are the last days and many people want to cherry pick scriptures but God will never change his standard for he is the same yesterday today and for evermore. I pray that many will not fall to these schemes of the devil. God has given man a free will that is why you work out your salvation with fear and trembling please read the message to the churches in the book of revelation and ask your self which church do you belong in for we all shall stand before the judgement seat of God may he help us not to be found wanting. God bless you all

      • Drew

        Geoffrey please read this carefully and rightly divide it.

        Faith is the CONDITION for God’s saving grace. If we turn from faith then we have not the saving grace of God any longer. As we never lose our free will as man, we can at anytime go either way.

        It is not a one time past act of FAITH that saves us. It is a LIFE of continuous FAITH, the condition of God’s saving grace, that saves us.

        It is true, one who is saved will produce works/fruit. However, no, the works themselves don’t save us, it is the faith that is the condition of God’s saving grace. So long as man continues in faith. Geoffrey are we to consider God’s exhortations to continue in the faith as shameful lies? Or are they warnings we need to listen to? God will not grant us saving grace, unless we have faith. Faith is something we are to have always, not just once. Faith is something we can at anytime leave.

        The word follow is not a one time past act, it is to be done presently, always.

        Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

        If ye continue

        • Sam Fox

          Very good Drew. This goes with Col. 1:23.

          Hebrews 2:1
          Since all this is true, we ought to pay much closer attention than ever to the truths that we have heard, lest in any way we drift past [them] and slip away.

          This goes with your faith statement:

          Hebrews 11:6
          But without faith it is impossible to please and be satisfactory to Him. For whoever would come near to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He is the rewarder of those who earnestly and diligently seek Him [out].

          SamFox

  • Drew

    It’s a life for Christ, not a one time past act of faith.

    We do not lose free will and becomes robots when we accept Christ. Anyone is able to deny Him at any given time. We must persevere in the faith, and carry our cross.

    Luke 9:23 – And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

    Yes it is faith that saves us and not works. Although, works are clearly proof of our faith.

    It is not a one time past act of faith, but a LIFE of having faith, perseverance.

    • Well said Drew. OSAS = license to sin. Geoffrey this article can lead many astray, you should know better!

      • No, that’s a silly statement you just made. You completely disregarded the part of my article where it says that wrong living will be dealt with the at Judgment Seat of Christ. My article specifically states that Eternal Security is NOT a “license to sin”. But let me ask you this. Since you reject the Bible doctrine of Eternal Security, how do you stay saved on a daily basis since obviously you still sin. What keeps you saved?

        • Inasmuch As

          >>>Since you reject the Bible doctrine of Eternal Security, how do you stay saved on a daily basis since obviously you still sin.

          No, that one has ceased from sin and understand that God requires holiness. That means intentionally and daily choosing not to sin. That is normal Christian living.

          2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

          Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
          17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

          2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

          Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

          • OK, so you are claiming that you have stopped sinning, that you no longer sin. Is that what I am hearing? Because if it is, God calls you a liar. “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:10 (KJV)

        • Drew

          Geoffrey

          There are many new Christians who will see this doctrine as a license to sin and fall back into a worldly sinful lifestyle. Just because you know better, doesn’t mean they do.

          Also, you asked “what keeps you saved?”. If we don’t believe in OSAS.

          The answer is simple, FAITH. Faith is the condition for God’s saving grace.

          To say one sin takes away God’s saving grace is crazy. Certainly we should keep our eyes fixed on Christ and do our best not to sin. It is a departure from the faith that will lose someone’s God’s saving grace.

          Any one sin can LEAD to a departure from the faith. Faith is NOT SECURE, and it is FAITH that is the condition for God’s saving grace.

          Also, yes everyone has sinned and falls short of the glory of God. However, once someone accepts Christ we all then have the power of Christ to NOT sin anymore ever. I can’t say I have done that well, but it is possible with faith in Christ and fixing your eyes on Christ. Still everyone has sinned prior to accepting Christ, although it doesn’t mean we can’t live our lives sinless after accepting Christ. And like I said I can’t say I’ve done that well myself.

          1 Corinthians 10:13 – There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

          This verse clearly shows, once we are saved we can live sinless through the power of Christ. I can’t say I’ve done this, but it is possible through the power of Christ. But yes, prior to being saved by Christ, we have all sinned, doubtless.

          • Drew

            And Geoffrey

            1 John 1:10 – If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

            Says we have all sinned. It does not say that we can’t stop sinning after we accept Christ. I have not managed to do such, but such IS possible with the power of Christ. The Word declares it. I’ll post it again.

            1 Corinthians 10:13 – There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

          • Are you claiming sinlessness since you got saved? Yes or no answer please.

          • Sam Fox

            Drew, here are other verses that back you.

            John 15:7

            **If** you live in Me [**abide vitally** united to Me] **and** My words **remain in you** and **continue to live** in your hearts, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.

            John 15:10

            **If** you keep My commandments [**(if** you **continue to** obey My instructions], you will abide in My love and live on in it, just as I have obeyed My Father’s commandments and live on in His love.

            Like I said somewhere here, :-), we are once saved always saved **IF**…

            SamFox

      • Suez

        Amen,,,,:(

        • Drew

          No I am not claiming to be sinless since I put my faith in Christ. However, it is possible to finish your life sinless AFTER you put your faith in Christ. No I have not done this.

          This verse proves it is possible, unless you think Jesus was lying to us.

          1 Corinthians 10:13 – There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

          God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can handle, we CAN avoid sin IF we have enough faith in Christ.

          This doesn’t change that we ALL sinned BEFORE we put our faith in Christ. But this verse PROVES we can live a life sinless AFTER we put our faith in Christ.

          No I personally have not lived sinless since I put my faith in Christ. This verse does clearly state it is possible though. Or do you think the power of Christ is not enough? Do you think Christ lied to us in this verse Geoffrey?

          Also, Geoffrey you have not touched on the substance of my points. I refuted all of yours, yet you have not mentioned how any of mine are wrong.

          Faith is the condition of God’s saving grace.

          Having faith = having God’s saving grace.

          Not having faith or leaving the faith = not having God’s saving grace.

          Too many exhortations command us to continue in the faith.

          You can’t explain away or twist these verses.

          1 Timothy 4:1 – Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

          Some shall depart from the faith.

          Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

          If ye continue in the faith.

          1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

          CONTINUE in them: for in doing this thous shalt save thyself.

          • Dan

            Drew , in the whole scheme of things your still going to be alright.

            But, the only thing in you that is ever going to be worthy is the spirit you received when you accepted Christ as lord.

            Your sealed now brother but you still will continue to sin until your change or your death. Which ever come first.

          • Drew

            Matthew 10:33

            33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

            If you deny Christ, then He will deny you. This verse does not have an exception clause of, “unless you previously accept Christ before you chose to deny Christ”.

            We are secure by faith in the blood of Christ and what He did for us. As faith is the condition for God’s saving grace.

          • sam fox

            1 John 2:1, says if we sin we have an advocate with the Father who is of course Yeshua Messiah.

            There is a distinction between continuing in unrepentant sin that becomes a habitual lifestyle & blowing it on occasion and fighting off & doing our best in the Lord to not do things that were habitual in our old life. Poppa knows we are not perfected yet.

            So He made provision for the stuff we do that we are convicted of & sorry for & we repent. Some things in my life have been a struggle. We still have a fallen nature that we must continually battle. The key is that we are not wanting to live or do things as we once did that we know are sin.

            We are not going to lose our salvation over every little thing. If we don’t repent then we will face consequences, but not easily lose our salvation.

            Our sin & sin nature can lead us to falling away, IF not dealt with ASAP.

            All this is different for each individual. If we are doing all we know to do, pray, read & study the Word, fellowship, try to live as the Bible teaches, Father will extend His mercy if we ask for it & confess what we need to. Might as well…:-) we can’t hide ANYTHING from Him any way.

            Just everyone remember, Father loves YOU! He isn’t mad at you all the time or such. Just do YOUR best in Him. You’ll be OK. And LOVE HIM BACK…;-)

            He is so wonderful…

            SamFox

  • I greatly appreciate this dissertation on Once Saved, Always Saved, and I agree with all of the scriptures.

    But there are many other verses that need to be considered. The apostle Paul wrote ‘that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;’ 2Th2:3. Paul wrote of once believers falling away Heb6:6. He spoke of Demas loving this world 2Ti4:10, & Alexander, the coppersmith doing much evil 2Ti4:15, implying both had fallen from the faith!

    Jesus said ‘Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish’ Lk13:3,5
    Jesus also said we need to endure to the end to be saved Mt24:13.

    The following is a blog that represent an excellent contrary viewpoint:
    https://heulu.wordpress.com/2013/10/30/is-osas-biblical/

    God bless,
    ~Drgold http://drgoldsite.wordpress.com

    • Yes, you can fall away from your faith like the Prodigal did, but you cannot “unseal” yourself from your salvation (Ephesians 1 and 4)

      • Drew

        Then what your saying is God takes away our free will after we accept Christ. This does not go with God’s moral character.

        The seal is the Holy Spirit, which we have ONLY because of faith, being given saving Grace from God. If we lose faith, we no longer meet the condition for God’s saving grace and Holy Spirit to dwell in us as our seal/mark. If we depart from the faith we will be blotted out. Also, you can’t be blotted out if you’re not in the book. Only follower’s of Christ are even in the book.

        James 5:19-20

        19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

        20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

        If you err from the truth and do not come back to Christ, you will get death.

        • Drew

          The security is through faith by God’s grace.

          Faith is the condition.

          • Drew

            Ezekiel 18:24

            24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

  • This was an excellent presentation on the doctrine of ‘eternal security.’

    • Thank you 🙂

      • Tracy

        Geoff,
        Thank you.
        Just my humble opinion, but I believe that once we are saved, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell inside of us, and we simply CANNOT live a purposefully-sinning lifestyle without feeling a huge amount of guilt, stress, regret, discontent etc. If so, then something is wrong with our so-called salvation. That feeling of shame IS in a Christian for a reason. The Holy Spirit was placed there the minute we were “saved” then sealed by God. We are His and belong to Him–Born Again from above. Therefore, we know that we belong to God, otherwise, no feeling of guilt or discontent would ever arise in out life. If we continue in sin after being saved, God will punish (chastise) us until we get back into the fold. Therefore, a Christian WILL WANT to live as Holy as he possibly can while on this earth. It’s all because of Jesus and what He did and gave; our part is to accept His free gift, and with the help (helper)of the Holy Spirit we are able to continue in Him and Him in us. It’s not us, but Him.
        Praise God!!

        • I agree! After I got saved in 1990, for the first time ever I had a desire to try and live right. Sometimes I can, and sometimes I fail. When I fail, because I am saved, I have IMMEDIATE conviction from the Holy Spirit inside of me. Eternal security does not make me want to sin or give me a license to do so, but what it does do is reassure me that, even on my worst days, I am STILL a child of God and headed for Heaven.

          • Dan

            Amen, Geoffrey !

          • Susan Johnson

            When the Holy Spirit convicts people of their sin, He
            represents the righteous Judgement of God (Hebrews 4:12).

            There is no appeal of this verdict.

            He also brings them to Repentance.
            The convicting power of the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to
            our sin, and opens our hearts to receive His grace (Ephesians 2:8)

            We praise the Lord for the conviction of sin. Without it,
            there could be no Salvation.

            “They are dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1).
            Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who
            sent Me draws him” (John 6:44).
            Part of that draw to Jesus is the conviction of sin.

            God has blessed you with your faithful Ministry!

  • tony fitz

    Some scripture that points to the fact that God’s people, (HIS CHILDREN) can be locked out of the “COMING KINGDOM OF GLORY” First some old testement texts..
    HOSEA 4=6: “MY PEOPLE” are “DESTROYED” for lack of “KNOWLEDGE”

    EZEIKEL 3=16-21: “please read these texts” AND REMEMBER, “GOD NEVER CHANGES”..

    MATTHEW 5=17=20: “please read these texts” VERSE 19: JESUS IS GIVING ADVICE TO “WHOSOEVER” WANTS TO FOLLOW HIM, HAS TO “PRACTICE,”AND “TEACH” THESE “COMMANDMENTS”..

    AND IN VERSE 22: JESUS STATES, “ANYONE WHO SAYS, YOU “FOOL” WILL BE IN DANGER OF THE “FIRE OF HELL”..

    MATTHEW 7=15-23: “please read these texts” ” HERE JESUS WARNS “HIS PEOPLE” TO WATCH OUT FOR “FALSE PROPHETS”..

    WHY WOULD HE DO THAT IF HIS PEOPLE ARE “ALWAYS SAVED”??

    MATTHEW 25=1-13: please read these texts.. “HERE JESUS GIVES A PARABLE , OF THE 10 VIRGINS..IN VERSE 1: JESUS STATES, ..”AT THAT TIME”..”THE KINGDOM OF,”..”HEAVEN”..WILL BE LIKE 10 VIRGINS”..

    WHY DID HALF OF THE VIRGINS OF ..”THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN”..BECOME LOCKED OUT, AT THE RETURN OF JESUS??SEE VERSES 11-13:

    REVELATION 2=1-29; 3=1-22: PLEASE READ BOTH CHAPTERS, WHICH COVERS THE 7 CHURCHES..”GOD’S PEOPLE” THOSE WHO “CLAIM JESUS AS LORD”..AT THE END OF EVERY ONE OF THESE 7 CHURCHES JESUS STATES..”WHOEVER HAS..” EARS”..LET THEM HEAR WHAT THE ..”SPIRIT”..SAYS TO THE ..”CHURCHES”..

    PSALM 51=10-17: “PLEASE READ THESE TEXTS”..
    THE STORY OF KING DAVID AND HIS SIN WITH BATHSHEBA…IS TO BE A LESSON TO ALL GODS CHILDREN, OF A BACKSLIDING SERVANT OF GOD, WHO, BEING “BLINDED” BY HIS SIN, DID NOT REALISE THE GRAVITY OF HIS ACTIONS, UNTIL GOD SENT NATHAN THE PROPHET TO AWAKEN HIM FROM HIS “BACKSLIDEN” CONDITION, ONLY THEN, DID HE REALISE HIS “HORROR” OF HIS DEEDS, THIS PSALM IS HIS “CONFESSION” AND SEEKING GODS FORGIVENES ,AND THE RETURN OF THE FULNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE “JOY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS SALVATION , NOT TO BE “TAKEN AWAY” FROM HIM..HE AND HIS FAMILY SUFFERED GREATLY, BECAUSE OF HIS SIN..IT COST HIM THE LIFE OF HIS SON ABSALOM…
    WE ALL HAVE BY THE GIFT OF GOD, TO THE GREATEST TEACHER,

    PLEASE READ JOHN 16=7-15:..AND ZECHARIAH 4=6:..

    GOD BLESS .. tony

  • Larry / vietnamvet1971

    Great article Geoffrey, That is what the Word of GOD tells us and this is what I Believe / by FAITH.

    By confessing with our Mouth & Believing in our heart we shall be Saved Who soever calls up on the Name of the LORD Shall be Saved. GOD the Father & His SON have made ALL the PLANS and JESUS did the Work on the Altar of the Cross for us so our Works do not matter.

    Saved by Grace through FAITH for without FAITH it is Impossible to please GOD.

    • Suez

      Larry, But, what if you walk away from your faith and turn away unto idols? What if you loose hope, and turn you back on Christ? What then? Why do you suppose Jesus himself said: Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
      Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
      Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. DRAW BACK FROM WHAT??? FAITH!

      • Larry / vietnamvet1971

        I would like to say I have noticed your comments and you surely seem to know it ALL and IF any one has a different comment then you have nothing else to do than “Set us Straight” you give me a lot IF’s and or Buts.I know what the Word of GOD and His SON’s Plan is for me and I do not need you or any one trying to tell me your version of how to be saved or question my Salvation that is what is wrong with people they want or need some one to feed them the Word of GOD and then they are confused, deceived and not sure (Satan is good at DOUBT) so I ask read my comments and just keep going.

        Believe & FAITH simple.

        • Suez

          @ Larry, or STL whoever you are. I only am replying because you have falsely accused me. I have never said to anyone here that, I doubt their salvation!!! You said…”I know what the Word of GOD and His SON’s Plan is for me and I do not need you or any one trying to tell me your version of how to be saved or question my Salvation” Well, that is a ball faced lie! I have not, nor would I question anyone’s salvation, nor have I given any version of how to be saved. I’m assuming most here already are saved. I have only been talking about those who choose to walk away, and reject the gift which they once had. That is it. I would hope no one here would ever do that. I am not God. Only God knows the heart. Mainly I have quoted scripture on here, and I have NOT told anyone, I question their salvation. I don’t think anyone here is, or was questioning anyone here’s salvation., At least I would hope not. You should be careful of being a false accuser!! You can read all the scriptures myself, and others have posted here on, or for, OSAS, then people can believe what they want on the subject, it is a personal choice…God has given us all free will to choose, how we believe what the word says. Have a good day! 🙂

  • Marian

    Those who don’t believe in eternal security should look up the verses about God’s discipline. Clearly, He doesn’t allow a saved person to stay in a state of sinful living. We doubt OSAS because we see Christians living like they are going to bust Hell wide open, but we don’t know everything about the lives of those we observe. If they are not really Christians, then obviously they live according to the world. Christians may stray for what we think is a long time, but the Lord will bring them back… or He will take them home (the sin unto death). To think that God will allow one of His own to “jump out of His hand” denies the character and the power of God.

    • Dan

      Well said Marian. GOD will not abandon even the simplest of us.(knuckle heads).

  • eddie santana

    Judas and Pharoah are new and old testament examples of where Paul talked about God having the right to make vessels set for destruction. You can’t really use them as examples, only for that purpose (destruction). I think that’s really more the exception than the rule, though.

  • Marian

    I think it’s interesting that many who deny this doctrine use the same kind of rhetorical argument that is used to deny the pre-trib rapture.

    • Yes, and it breaks my heart to hear how Christians will bash the doctrine of the Pretrib Rapture….Jesus used Paul to reveal many great mysteries like Eternal Security, The Pretrib Rapture, the Body of Christ, and so on. None of the other apostles has that information, God used Paul to teach new things to all of them. That’s why we don’t follow Peter, Matthew or Mark for doctrine. We follow Paul, as the Bible commands us to. “Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.” 1 Corinthians 4:16 (KJV)

      • Sam Fox

        Geoffrey,

        Indeed if one dies before Yeshua’s 2nd advent, that one had better be enduring. 🙂 How is it not the ‘end’ for that one? One’s death is a secondary meaning, true. But still a valid one.

        I went to your link. I have posted a few times at other blogs here about the PTR. I use the Amplified in this reply.

        The pre-trib rapture? Riddle me these:

        In Matthew 13 Yeshua says that wheat & darnel [tares in KJ] will grow together until the harvest. In the same chapter He says the harvest is the end and culmination of the age. That would be the last day. He also says darnel will taken 1st & burned. One taken, one left. eh…:-)

        He also tells us 3 times that He will raise His own up at the last day. Even Martha knew that. End of age = last day.

        PTR teachers make a big deal out of a so called by them difference in His ‘coming’ & His ‘appearing’. That’s strange because the Book doesn’t make that distinction. In fact, the terms are interchangeable.

        2 Thessalonians 2:8
        And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.

        2 Timothy 4:8
        [As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return).

        Even the ‘blessed hope’ verse PTR teachers use doesn’t say “at His coming.”

        Titus 2:13
        Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

        Here are some verses that are using the wrong term, if you take the PTR as true.

        1 Timothy 6:14 Amplified Bible (AMP) To keep all His precepts unsullied and flawless, irreproachable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Anointed One),

        1 Thessalonians 5:10
        Who died for us so that whether we are still alive or are dead [at Christ’s appearing], we might live together with Him and share His life.

        1 Corinthians 4:5
        So do not make any hasty or premature judgments before the time when the Lord comes [again], for He will both bring to light the secret things that are [now hidden] in darkness and disclose and expose the [secret] aims (motives and purposes) of hearts. Then every man will receive his [due] commendation from God.

        John 6:40 [Also John 6:39 & 44. Martha’s comment, John 11:24 ]
        For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

        Paul says no one will precede any one else, that we will ALL be raised with imperishable bodies TOGETHER. Paul agrees with Yeshua. Paul said at the last trump we will be changed.

        Dear brother, you are teaching a false doctrine in the pre-trib rapture. And Margaret McDonald IS the one that Darby got the idea for the teaching from. Darby gave it to Scofield in about 1934. I read Margaret’s own declaration as uncovered by Dave MacPherson & published in his book The Incredible Cover Up.

        Dave went to Scotland & other countries for his research.

        I know a couple of early writers said stuff that is used to fool people into thinking the ‘pre trib rapture’ is an old Church teaching. If that were true, before 1934 or so Bible commentators like Adam Clark would have mentioned it. They don’t. And the concept that Yeshua’s 2nd advent is in 2 parts separated by 7 years was NEVER a wide spread central Christian teaching till about the mid/early 1830’s.

        PTR teaching is 100% based on esigesis & the assumptive speculation & imposed meaning it brings to the Bible. If PTR teachers used exegesis, there would be no PTR teaching.

        SamFox

        • Inasmuch As

          Good post, Sam.

          Some of Those who did NOT believe in Pre-Trib Rapture

          Charles Spurgeon
          Charles Finney
          John Wesley
          Charles Wesley
          David Livingstone
          George Whitefield
          Sir Isaac Newton
          Jonathan Edwards
          William Tyndale
          John Wycliff
          Leonard Ravenhill

  • The problem with this doctrine of eternal security is that it makes people relax their guard and ‘stop trying so hard’ to live right before God and that’s quite logical. If by answering a simple alter call I bocome so saved and heaven bound that even God can’t turn me away from heaven no matter how low I sink into sin and utter debauchery, then why should I even try to tame my flesh or to resist the devil as Apostle Paul cautions that we must all do? Why did Jesus warn that those who think they are standing should take care lest they fall? What constitutes the ‘care’ which they must take? The New Testament is replete with warnings to the saved (not the unsaved) on how they must carry on in order to retain their salvation. The only instruction to the unsaved is, RUN TO JESUS AND GET SAVED! Are we to ignore all that?

    Mr. Grider, I am an avid reader of your articles and blogs and I agree with you on very many things but on this one, I most certainly do not agree. Salvation will be lost, if you walk away from God and don’t go back to him. That is my stand.

    • NO. Eternal Security does NOT “make us relax”, but what it does do is make us SECURE in our salvation. That leaves us free to WORK HARD to obtain rewards as the Judgment Seat of Christ. http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/doctrine/faith-works-and-the-judgment-seat-of-christ.htm. You cannot work to become saved, and you cannot work to stay saved. But God does exhort us to work for rewards at the Judgment Seat.

      • Suez

        Mr. G. If one falls away, to the point of loosing the salvation Jesus has given, that has nothing to do with works. It has to do with turning your back on God. Will you please get off your soap box about Works…I for one do not believe in a works based salvation. It is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ alone. BUT once again, let me try and explain. I’m talking about turning your back on God and walking away, from the faith you once had in him. I’m not talking about working for salvation….What part of that do you not get?

        • froggie

          AMEN Suez!-“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” Revelation 3:14-16 (KJV). My niece has been a Christian for twenty years and loves the Lord. Two years ago she left her family and divorced her handsome christian husband for a homeless, nonbeliever, lesbian that looks totally like a man (not good looking)She claims to be attracted to woman but this person does not. Very confusing. My niece is still a christian and believes she is going to heaven because of this false doctrine. She says ” Thank God for His grace.” Currently she left her lazy girlfriend and got a new one. Very sad and sick. I cry and pray for her salvation daily because I know she is NOT saved at the moment.May God open our eyes to all these endtime deceptions being preached by False Christians. WAKE UP! Hosea 4:6King My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

        • Sam Fox

          Suez, here is a verse or two that backs up your statement “I’m talking about turning your back on God and walking away, from the faith you once had in Him.”

          We are not talking about backsliding but a complete turning away, like Paul said in 11 Thess before the man of sin shows up will take place.

          Once saved always saved is conditional. That should be obvious. We are once save always saved IF…

          That teaching & the pre-trib rapture as far as I know now, will be a great part of WHY the II Thess. great falling away takes place.

          Christians will very likely think they can take the mark because they are ‘eternally secure’. If they are not grounded in CORRECT Bible teaching based on exegesis & fall for these 2 teachings, they will probably be sitting ducks for the ac.

          Notice the author addresses this to ‘brethren’ & ‘any one of you’. “desert” is a key word here.

          Hebrews 3:12
          [Therefore beware] brethren, take care, lest there be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart [which refuses to cleave to, trust in, and rely on Him], leading you to turn away and desert or stand aloof from the living God.

          Hebrews 6:
          4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

          5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,

          6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

          “deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance…” is key in this verse & goes with Heb. 3:12.

          This ‘falling away’ is based on freewill choice. As I said earlier, we do not lose free will at conversion.

          SamFox

          • Sam Fox

            I forgot to mention that backsliding is not apostasy, though it can lead there.

            What Hebrews says in the verses I used above is choosing to go into apostasy, though that term isn’t used there.

            What else could it be?

            SamFox

    • LIONESS

      Obi you are right he has cherry picked scripture King Saul was anointed and he lost that anointing these are really the end times and people are looking for ways to be comfortable with their sins the ten virgins reflect the church and even the message to the churches in revelation shows us that we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling God bless

  • Ernest P

    Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    SO Jesus said, If you change His word, He will remove YOU! for the BOOK OF LIFE

    Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

  • Inasmuch As

    Geoffrey wrote:

    OK, so you are claiming that you have stopped sinning, that you no longer sin. Is that what I am hearing? Because if it is, God calls you a liar. “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:10 (KJV)

    That verse is meant for those of us who once sinned, repented and now because we love the Lord and want to serve him, actively choose not to sin. That is love, not works. Anyone who believes otherwise has not truly repented.

    2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    As for works, God judges us according to our works so start soon, he is coming.

    Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Re 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    • Paul is quite clear, at the moment of salvation the believer is SEALED IN so they cannot fall out. Further, Paul says that the “sealing” lasts until the very day we meet Jesus. “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV).

      • Inasmuch As

        >>>Paul is quite clear, at the moment of salvation the believer is SEALED IN so they cannot fall out.

        David was the apple of God’s eye but after he sinned he prayed, Ps 51:11 “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.” Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If the Holy Spirit can be taken from David, certainly it can be taken from people today.

        Ac 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

        2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

        You write like someone who has not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. You wrest scripture to your destruction.

        >>>inheritance…

        A very popular doctrine is that once a person is saved he will always remain saved, no matter. To substantiate this teaching the parallel of the new birth is quoted. Once you are born, you cannot be “unborn”. That is so, but once you’re born you can be disinherited or you can die!

        • But David was not saved by grace through faith ALONE as we are. No one in the OT was. David was saved by faith plus works, we are not. When David said “take not thy Holy Spirit from me”, that’s because the Law of Moses had no offering for Adultery and Murder. But the shed blood of Jesus Christ covers ALL our sins, past, present AND future.

          • Inasmuch As

            >>>But David was not saved by grace through faith ALONE as we are.

            It doesn’t say “ALONE”:

            Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

            >>>No one in the OT was. David was saved by faith plus works, we are not.

            Nonsense. Unscriptural statement.

            >>>When David said “take not thy Holy Spirit from me”, that’s because the Law of Moses had no offering for Adultery and Murder. But the shed blood of Jesus Christ covers ALL our sins, past, present AND future.

            Absolutely FALSE! David and Bathsheba’s case was grace in the Old Testament.

            The blood of Jesus covers all our sin, past and present. Future sin is not to be. If you are immature and sin, then there may be a place for forgiveness IF YOU REPENT, but not if you don’t repent.

            Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
            27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

            You should investigate the meaning of Shema then ask God what sin of yours is keeping you bound in apostacy and unbelief. Shuck your false doctrines and see if He will grant you repentance.

          • Inasmuch As

            See my post above regarding Antinomianism. That is the chief false doctrine in the church and is what you are espousing.

            Repent! Time is short.

          • Petra

            Abraham was saved through faith – his faith was reckoned righteousness….

        • Derrick

          Paul dealt with the issue of antinomianism in Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”

          I’ve read several replies that state, in one way or another, that OSAS encourages sin. That thinking is not the result of true conversion because true conversion yields a greater desire to obey, not a lesser one.

  • eddie santana

    Pre-trib rapture I believe is the correct doctrine, but salvation is sure on the Lord’s part, but is conditional based on our free will and our response to the Lord’s goodness.

    • Salvation is of our free will, yes. God is not a Calvinist. But AFTER salvation, Paul says we are “sealed” in by the Holy Spirit. This sealing is not by our request and it is not optional, it is done by God Himself because He knows that without it, we would fall out. This is why Paul says, in Romans 8, that NOTHING can separate us from Jesus Christ. Not even our own sin after salvation. Nothing in the Greek still means nothing. “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38,39 (KJV)

      • Kimmie

        We can commit (spiritual) adultery in our betrothal to the Lord. He is coming for a bride who is watching and waiting and without “spot or wrinkle”…if we are not, He will NOT receive us. We cannot be a harlot with the world, even tho we once promised to live for Him, and expect that we can enter in. It is a HUGE deception and (sadly) one that many will find out soon enough (unless there is repentance and a return to their First Love).

        • Inasmuch As

          Kimmie wrote:

          …Just as Jesus said that we could not divorce here on earth except for fornication (Matt.5), it is the same spiritually, since our relationship with Him is a picture of marriage. …

          I agree OSAS is false. Note please Ezra Chapter 10 where God instructed the children of Israel to divorce their foreign wives who worshipped foreign gods and they did so. Yeshua HaMashiach, the same yesterday, today and forever. Heb 13:8.

          1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

          Many Christians believe wrongly that they are stuck in abusive marriages. Such should not be, but is an outgrowth of OSAS.

          If an abused woman seeks counsel from a pastor who tells her to go home and submit to her abusive husband, and she does and he injures or murders her, the pastor should be arrested as an accessory.

          Too much attention has been towards forgiving the unrepentant abusers. Instead attention should be given to the abusers and they should be disfellowshipped, told to shape up or ship out and if not he should be divorced. Some abusers need to be served with a restraining order and some wives need a gun and to learn not to suffer fools gladly.

      • Kimmie

        We can commit (spiritual) adultery/fornication in our betrothal to the Lord. He is coming for a bride who is watching and waiting and without “spot or wrinkle”…if we are not, He will NOT receive us. Just as Jesus said that we could not divorce here on earth except for fornication, it is the same spiritually, since our relationship with Him is a picture of marriage. We cannot be a harlot with the world, even though we once promised to live for Him, and expect that we can enter in. It is a HUGE deception and (sadly) one that many will find out soon enough (unless there is repentance and a return to our First Love).

  • Well, even the Apostle Paul didn’t convince everyone, right? But for those of you who CAN receive it, the Bible doctrine of ETERNAL SECURITY is a sweet and precious promise of the Lord who saved us to ALWAYS keep us.

    “And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.” Acts 28:23, 24 (KJV)

  • John

    Did you forget this part?

    Luke 15:24
    For this my son WAS DEAD, and is ALIVE AGAIN; he WAS LOST, and IS FOUND. And they began to be merry.

    • Right, but even when he was way out in the world, he never stopped being the Father’s son, did he? And when he came home, did he have to “requalify” as the Father’s son? No, he did not. The Father never disowned him, never cast him out for his sins. Why? Because the son, as a son, is eternally secure with the Father. Now, he lost his inheritance, and lost of lot of other things, but never his sonship. Eternal security.

      • John

        Here’s the problem I see with that explanation: The other “son”.

        Who was the Lord addressing? The scribes and pharisees. Those would represent the other “son” in the parable. These are the same ones He elsewhere called “whitewashed sepulchers”. They weren’t saved. So although the Lord used the designation “son” for the purposes of the parable, the scribes and pharisees He was referring to weren’t saved. Thus the reaction of the one son when the other came home: anger.

        Who was seeking Him there? The publicans and sinners. They were never saved before coming to hear the Lord speak/preach. So the parable isn’t about someone being saved, turning their back on the Lord, and returning. It’s about coming to the Lord to begin with, as far as I can tell, and the reaction of the other son was of someone doing all the “right” things, but never fully coming to the knowledge of the truth. Hence the bitterness.

  • Elaine

    Thank you for an excellent teaching.

    “The Gospel is not an “offer” to be bandied around by evangelical peddlers. The Gospel is no mere invitation but a proclamation, a proclamation concerning Christ! true, whether men believe it or not. No man is asked to believe that Christ died for him in particular.

    The Gospel is the means which God uses in the saving of His own chosen ones.” The Sovereignty of God A.W. Pink

    That Great Shepherd

    (Zech 13:7) As the profound Goodwin pointed out centuries ago, this title also implies all of Christ’s offices: His prophetic office – “He shall feed his flock like a shepherd” His priestly office – “the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep” His royal office – for the same passage that announced that He should be Shepherd of God’s people also denominated Him a “prince” Ezek 34:23,24)

    A Shepherd Must Have Sheep

    Shepherd and sheep are correlative terms: one cannot properly term any man a shepherd if he has no sheep. The idea of Christ as Shepherd necessarily implies that there is a chosen flock. Christ is the Shepherd of the sheep and not of the wolves (Luke 10:3) nor of the goats, for He has received no charge from God to save them. How the basic truth of “particular redemption” stares us in the face in innumerable passages throughout the Scriptures! “He did not lay down His life for the whole herd of mankind, but for the flock of the elect which was given to Him by the Father.

    Saved and kept by HIS Amazing Grace

  • Landi

    The Unpardonable Sin
    28″Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin “–

  • The Apostle Paul also spoke of being a castaway, and called many enemies of the cross. The Apostle John called many of those who started with them, Anti Christs. We have eternal security if we have a love for the truth (Jesus Christ) that we might be saved. It is a matter of heart not Bible doctrinal positioning. Luke Chapter 8 is most clear about this. Salvation is not our work, we are made transformed to Christ image by way of the cross alone by grace, yet it is up to us to follow Christ, while putting to death the old man. All that the Father gives to Christ,will come – yet what we choose to love more than Him; is the issue. Everything that competes for our love of the Lord, must be handed over for execution – and that is the disciples choice to make so that he might enter in spiritually. I have been dead, the Lord was right next to me like in 2 Corinthians 5:8 / (2 COR. 5:6-8). So, I can say I am actually His, and I know and follow him. Many will come to Him on that day (church) saying didn’t we do things in his name… And He says depart from me I never knew you, you workers of iniquity. Knowing Him intimately speaking, is the issue: like the 5 out of the 10 virgins. Systematic Theologies love to cherry pick certain texts out of the scriptures – as it is good business for them: yet the Truth can only be gained by walking in it! That’s all I will say.

    • If you are keeping yourself saved, then you have works-based salvation which is not how people are saved in the age of Grace. Christians do not have to “endure to the end” because we are ALREADY “seated in heavenly places” at the moment of salvation. The people in Matthew 24 are Jewish believers in the Tribulation, not the Church.

    • Marian

      Yes, and living it is the way you “work out your salvation.” The work is not a requirement FOR salvation, it is evidence OF the salvation. We are not the final judge of who is living it… where the actions are questionable, the Lord himself is the only one who knows our actions AND our motives. I suspect you cannot find many Chinese Christians who are in it for the money!

  • Jessica Dahlen

    What is it meant by “faith without works is dead?”

  • I was drilled in all your doctrinal positions, when I was in the PCA leadership, and grew up with them. It is of no consequence, we are not keeping ourselves saved, we are either moving forward and found “in him” in spirit, or we are not. One must be found “in Christ NOW”, spiritually as they live and breath, or they won’t be with him when their body packs up. Challenging the Lord God as a scribe, has no bearing upon being found in Him.

    • So tell me, when you sin, do you lose your salvation? And when you lose it, do you have to constantly get re-saved over and over again? Please show me verses to support that someone can be re-saved after “losing it”. Thanks.

  • Kimmie

    Everyone needs to read the (NT) bible (for themselves) and see how many times we are warned to “take heed”, and how many times the words are spoken of for us to “keep” and “continue”, and we must not overlook the all too important little word, “if”…

    I, for one, would not want to (sadly) find out which “doctrine” is correct by erroring on the side of “grace covers all” only to find out that Jesus really meant it when He said He would be coming back for a church that is without spot or wrinkle, (not one that is dirtied up with the world and it’s ways.)

    If one is living as close to God as possible, then the doctrine wouldn’t matter. However, if one is “touching the unclean thing” and is counting on that “once you are saved, you are always saved” to be put into action, I am afraid that one will be very shocked when the Lord returns. He clearly said to “Come out from among them and be ye separate (says the Lord) and touch NOT the unclean thing and I will receive you.” (2 Cor. 6:17)

    A lot of wonderful teachers and preachers preach that doctrine that they were taught in bible school or in their church, but I so worry that many people are “falsely” ready to meet the Lord because they were told that because they once prayed “the” prayer they are saved & sealed no matter what…

    • Derrick

      Kimmie,

      I completely understand the concern that you’ve articulated. It reminds me of a profound discussion on salvation that I had with a co-worker a couple years ago. We went back and forth … point to point … verse to verse. And I recall coming to basically the same conclusion: that I don’t want to take the chance and choose the option that could potentially find me unclean or without oil for my lamp upon the Lord’s return. And not until recently, did I begin to question this “theology” because we cannot truthfully state that we will inevitably sin in our respective walks … daily. So should we not honestly pose a similar question to ourselves that Geoffrey posed (above) to Roland?

      Since sin is inevitable in my daily walk, do I lose my salvation? And when I lose it, do I have to constantly get re-saved over and over again with each instance?

      Also, I posted this in another reply earlier but I believe it bears repeating here: In Romans 6:1-2, we read “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” TRUE conversion yields a greater desire to obey, not a lesser one. And I’ve chosen to believe that now … AND when Jesus returns, his desire is that we are found living in a Romans 6:1-2 state and mindset … secure in our salvation and not striving and constantly wondering ‘am I getting this right?’ I’ve done that for far too long and it’s not, in my opinion, the Spirit of the Lord … it’s not TRUE freedom in Christ. True freedom is knowing who and whose you are without a shred of doubt. <3

      • Tracy

        Amen Derrick.

  • cut

    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
    Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
    Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
    1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

    • bjc

      how do we get our name in the book of life?…we get saved,right?and how do we get our name blotted out of the book of life?…we do not overcome,overcome means to quit sinning and do the will of the LORD,notice we do not get GODS name written in our forehead until we overcome.notice in 2 cor 6:17 it says come out from them and be separate then I will receive you.and just who is it that were suppose to seperate ourselves from?1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
      1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
      1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

      • cut

        oh and by the way bjc didnt post this comment ,i didhis info was in the box and i forgot to change it

  • Thank You!

  • bjc

    How nice…

    You can pray the sinner’s prayer and then go drink, dope and do anything else and still go to heaven.
    If it’s “once saved, always saved”, then why not add, “pray the sinner’s prayer, then live like you want, and you never have to come to church again, pay tithes or look at the Bible.
    That is what this article means.

    • Seriously? That is a JACKASS statement to make. You read the WHOLE article and that’s your conclusion?? Saying the “sinner’s prayer” is not salvation anymore than sleeping in a garage makes you a car. Salvation is a TRANSACTION between you and the Lord, a prayer is part of it, but you are EXCHANGING your sins for His Righteousness. Do you ever study the Bible?

      • cut

        exactly…saying the prayer is only part of salvation.once you’ve prayed (the sinners prayer)how do you know you’ve been saved?faith?believing because you simply asked it is done?do you then feel different?maybe…but in my experience,you wont get saved unless you truly humble yourself,truly believe,truly know that if you dont your home will be hell. i mean really really want to be saved from hell and damnation.if you are really humble and sincere and even maybe (scared) and then have faith,then you will feel the holy spirit come down on you and give you conformation.(in my case it was like a warm shower from head to toe) then i started quivering,crying,laughing all at the same time.i had prayed to be saved several times,mostly because thats what my mother told me to do,and never felt any different.it wasn’t until i really was worried about where i would spend eternity that i got born again.and now if i sin or start to sin the holy spirit will let me know thats not right.for he chastens the ones he loves… R U SAVED…TRULY SAVED?? WASHED IN THE BLOOD AND BORN AGAIN,BOUGHT BY THE PRICE OF HIS DEGRADATION AND SHAME?? Then you will not want to go back to the old man…really hope this helps someone!!!

  • Dear Geoffrey,

    I will try and answer out of respect for you… NO is your answer you are assuming I am taking an Armenian doctrinal position; I am not. Their is only one chance at salvation (one Christ one salvation) as you well know.

    You cannot teach someone into Christ, so all the natural Bible based academics is but useless (the Bible is only written to disciples) – leaning to ones own understanding is sinful, as it is independence from God, and rebellion – like Jesus said to the Scribes in John 5:39-40.

    If one is filled withe the Holy Spirit of God, they would understand what I have written. If not, it is but foolishness too them.

    One does not lose their salvation out of ignorance of the truth; they are castaway for blatant refusal to listen to the Lord; as he tries to teach them deeper truths, within the sanctification process.

    Unless a man hates (strong dis-preference for) his mother, father, sister, brother, even His own life; he cannot be my disciple Jesus said.
    We must lose our own life for Christ’s sake, in order to gain it. If one is unwilling to do so, they will lose it.

    ___________________________________________________

    Spiritual matters operate on a totally different track, than doctrinal understanding of the Bible even when taken in contexts. You have superb understanding of the Scriptures; but are you actually with him, is the question for us all.

    That’s the best I can do in attempting to put over what I can see…

    • Well, you still haven’t answered my question. Say someone gets saved at 20, but at 25 they “fall away” and go back to being a drunk and a prostitute. According to how you see the Bible, that person has lost their salvation. Now, how do they get it back? Where is the Bible verse(s) that shows people can regain lost salvation?

      • They won’t get it back. Their name has been struck from the book of life after refusing to give up the sovereignty of their own life. You will suffer execution, in this life – or the next; it is particularly sad, for those of us who have been given the chance of eternal life.

        • Brandon

          According to Revelation 3:5, a person’s name can never be blotted from the book of life…

  • Alfred

    Most churches teach man has free will to choose salvation. If this is what you believe then I believe you can undo your salvation. Because after all you are the first cause of your salvation. It is all up to you. But if you believe in the complete sovereignty of God or sovereign grace , then you had nothing to do with your salvation then of course you can’t lose it. Sovereign election, sovereign grace perseverance of the saints.

    • The Bible teaches that man must accept or reject Jesus Christ. Salvation is a FREE gift, FREELY offered and must be FREELY received.

      God is not a Calvinist, and He doesn’t make robots.

      • Kimmie

        We can commit (spiritual) adultery/fornication in our betrothal to the Lord. He is coming for a bride who is watching and waiting and without “spot or wrinkle”…if we are not, He will NOT receive us. Just as Jesus said that we could not divorce here on earth except for fornication, it is the same spiritually, since our relationship with Him is a picture of marriage. We cannot be a harlot with the world, even tho we once promised to live for Him, and expect that we can enter in. It is a HUGE deception and (sadly) one that many will find out soon enough (unless there is repentance and a return to our First Love).

  • Dan

    Geoff great subject but do we really expect people to change their minds?

    I don’t understand why so many have no problem with the idea that one mans disobedience can separate us from God but they reject the idea that one mans(God) obedience brings us back into union with God.

    I mean why should I suffer Adams disobedience; I wasn’t there ?

    Oh, but we all believe I was there; right?

    People in the same way we are in Christ on the cross and it is finished.

    Why is this so hard to except?

    • It is hard for some Christians to accept the DOCTRINE of ETERNAL SECURITY for one main reason: it cuts their works totally OUT of the picture! Pride and ego are just as deadly as drunkenness and fornication as far as sins go, and many Christian cannot give Jesus ALL the credit and ALL the glory. They want a piece for themselves, like Aiken did.

      • Suez

        You are so wrong Mr. G. We think nothing like that. You are falsely judging as you always do, when people don’t believe the same way you do, in your error….I fear and tremble for you, teaching all of your false beliefs to the flock, for you will be judged for leading others astray! This is why we who do not abide by the OSAS doctrine. It has nothing to do with if you sin, you will not make it. We know Jesus always forgives us if we but ask. So, your making totally false statements as usual. We are talking not about our flesh sinning….we are talking about FALLING AWAY,,,,two totally different things.

        FIRST off, we who believe you can loose your gift of salvation know, it has nothing to do with sinning per say. We all sin, and fall short, we are mere fleshly people, continuing to war against this evil flesh, on a daily basis. Jesus knows that, and forgives us, if we but repent and ask his forgiveness. But,,, FALLING AWAY is a whole different story. That means you have totally turned your back on Christ, and have rejected what he had given you, (Salvation),you turned back on him, and went back to not believing in him. You returned to your own vomit, or evil dark life, by rejecting him, not wanting or believing in him anymore. Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me, but according to scripture they will!!! Below are some Scriptures backing this: 2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
        {2Pe 2:15 Which have {forsaken the right way}, and are gone astray}, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. Think on this one. 2Pe 2:20 For if AFTER they have escaped the pollutions of the world THROUGH the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they ARE AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (((2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to TURN FROM the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit AGAIN; and the sow {THAT WAS WASHED} to her wallowing in the mire.) !!(SEE THEY WERE WASHED BY THE BLOOD!!) Luk_8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, (which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL away.) Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who WERE ONCE enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
        Heb 6:6 {If they shall fall away}, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,(again) and put him to an open shame. (this means it is impossible to come back and get saved again, IF you fall away, not that you have sinned, but that you turned your back on Christ and dis-owned him…Rejected him…You can’t get saved again by his blood. Read it…

        2Pe_3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being (led away) with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. (HOW CAN YOU BE LED AWAY, BY SOMETHING YOU NEVER HAD?) 2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (In order to Fall Away, from something, you had to have had it! You can’t fall away from something you never had)! ἀποστασία(Falling Away)apostasiaap-os-tas-ee’-ahFeminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (apostasy): – falling away, FORESAKE.Total KJV occurrences: 2

        I’m not talking about how we sin and ask forgiveness. That has nothing to do with falling away. Falling away is turning your back on Christ, period…going another way, after you were saved. What don’t you get about this? The scriptures are very clear!! You CAN NOT FALL AWAY FROM SOMETHING YOU NEVER HAD!!!!! THINK ABOUT IT! IT’S PRETTY SIMPLE! Falling away has nothing to do with regular sins. NO it doesn’t, it has EVERYTHING to do with turning your back on Jesus Christ and rejecting him….turning your back on him,and returning to your own vomit! IF WE CONTINUE IN CHRIST, REPENT OF SINS, LOVE HIM, TRUST HIM, BELIEVE IN HIM, SUBMIT TO HIM, THEN YES WE ARE ETERNALLY SECURE IN HIM!!! BUT, IF YOU FALL AWAY, TURN YOUR BACK ON HIM AND REJECT EVERYTHING YOU EVER BELIEVED IN HIM, TURNING ANOTHER WAY, THEN YOU WON’T MAKE IT. PERIOD.

        • Connie

          @ Suez , you couldn’t of picked a better book and ch than Heb 6 ; Suez.
          Because it is you(and Christians like you) that Paul is speaking to.

          Heb 6, Let us stop going over the same ole ground again and again always teaching those first lessons about Christ. Paul goes on to say let us become Mature in our understanding as strong Christians ought to be.

          Suez , Paul goes on to say “surely we don’t need to speak further about the foolishness of trying to be saved by being good.

          Suez reread Heb 6 sister because Paul is speaking to you.

          • Suez

            @Connie…Really Connie? You missed the whole point of my post….:( “Suez , Paul goes on to say “surely we don’t need to speak further about the foolishness of trying to be saved by being good.” I never said anything about being good enough to be saved! NO ONE IS!!!! Maybe you should be the one to grow up, beings you must not be able to read! I was trying to point out the difference between us, sinning, which we all do, and those that actually fall away, because of turning their back and rejecting Christ. So, save your lovely sarcasm for yourself. Maybe you should try reading what I said again, because you sure got it mixed up girl!~ 🙁

          • Inasmuch As

            Connie wrote:

            >>>Paul goes on to say “surely we don’t need to speak further about the foolishness of trying to be saved by being good.

            Paul taught to stop sinning, not use Grace as an excuse to keep sinning. If he were present today many here would find that rather than be a friend, he is your worst enemy.

            Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
            2 God forbid.
            How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

            Unfortunately false teachers have entered in just as Paul prophesied and taken over the Bible colleges as well. The false doctrine of Antinomianism from which OSAS/ES springs although a damnable heresy was predominant by the 1700’s. Now the loaf has been almost fully leavened and ready for the oven.

            “By the 1700’s, Antinomianism had established itself so deeply in most of the colleges that produced pastors, that almost anyone simply professing faith in God was considered a Christian.” How ridiculous.

            The Antinomians are Coming
            http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Salvation_Issues/antinomians_are_coming.htm

        • The “falling away” is not people becoming “unsaved”, it is a falling away from right doctrine. Once saved, always saved. Even the Laodicean Church which Jesus SPEWS out of His mouth is not “unsaved”, but they do suffer great loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

  • Brother Grider,
    Isaiah 45:5,6,7. Who created evil, Hasatan or Yahweh?

  • Brother Grider,
    I’ll try again. Did Yahweh create evil? Yes or no. Lord, Lord , we believed in once saved, always saved and didn’t we perform good deeds in your name! We all believed in once saved , always saved. And Yeshua will say to them…depart from me , I never knew you. Yet…they all called themselves Christians. Head knowledge, emotions and feelings can be deceiving and perilous.

  • bremertonchristian

    Love you Geoffe, right on bro! It’s simple, believe in your heart and confess with your mouth and you shall be saved (period). God bless that little period. It’s all on Jesus folks. When He said it is finished He meant it. For the scoffers, the bible is replete with examples, give us the example of someone loosing their salvation, or someone loosing their sonship

    • Amen AND amen 🙂

    • Inasmuch As

      >>> give us the example of someone loosing [sic] their salvation, or someone loosing [sic] their sonship

      Ananias and Sapphira.

      Simon the Magician.

      • bremertonchristian

        Nowhere in those verses did I read that anyone lost their salvation. Please explain. It seems that because of their treachery Ananias and his wife were struck dead. Where does it say anything about salvation or lack there of? Simon the magician thought he could buy salvation. I do not see your point. Please elaborate.

  • Jimmy

    Of course it’s once Saved always Saved. If one is ever saved the Holy Spirit enters, and once He enters, He will never leave. We might grieve Him or the Lord might take us out, but you can’t lose Him. There is no debate. When the Hound of Heaven outruns you, He changes your Wanter. It’s true that sometimes the flesh does everything it can to corrupt the Wanter and one day you might stand in front of the Bema Seat of Christ and everything you did in life might be wood, hay and stubble. Burnt Up before the Lord, and you will walk the streets of Heaven for a while like you were bought at a fire sale (Jay Vernon McGee), no treasures to lay at Christ’s feet. Saved but perhaps no rewards!!!!

  • Connie

    Hallelujah! THANK YOU JESUS!

  • AndrewA

    Wow, folks who have an issue with what Geofry Grider is talking about some of you are sounding like their is some real hate in your post. Is that really the response a Christian should have?

    Nothing he has said has taken away from the fact Geofry Grider is confessing Jesus is his Lord and savor and has redeemed him with the sacrifice on the Cross. That is in fact the point of the Article that Jesus has died for are sins and we are in fact saved in Christ. All we have to do is believe. We have no control outside of giving the Lord are faith in what He has done.

    If your in Christ that makes him a brother no mater how you try and cut it.

    Thank you for the good article and the follow up responses Mr Grider.

    • Kimmie

      AndrewA: I don’t think this sounds like a very loving Christian response do you?

      “Geoffrey Grider says:

      August 6, 2015 at 12:43 pm

      Seriously? That is a JACKASS statement to make. You read the WHOLE article and that’s your conclusion?? Saying the “sinner’s prayer” is not salvation anymore than sleeping in a garage makes you a car. Salvation is a TRANSACTION between you and the Lord, a prayer is part of it, but you are EXCHANGING your sins for His Righteousness. Do you ever study the Bible?”

      • Dan

        Grow up Kimmie

        • Kimmie

          Wow, Dan… Really?

          • Dan

            Yes Kimmie . Are we really going argue because Geoff said Jackass or because his tone wasn’t Christian like.

            Come on kimmie.

      • AndrewA

        Last I checked Mr Grider was responding to:

        jbc said:

        “How nice…

        You can pray the sinner’s prayer and then go drink, dope and do anything else and still go to heaven.
        If it’s “once saved, always saved”, then why not add, “pray the sinner’s prayer, then live like you want, and you never have to come to church again, pay tithes or look at the Bible.
        That is what this article means.”

        That was an ignorant statement from someone who clearly did not read the article as that was completely not what Mr Grider was saying.

        Also Mr Grider didn’t insult the messenger but the message.

        Maybe you should go outside pray to God read the Bible some then come back and reread what he said again and Realize your the one looking to pick a fight.

        I am honestly done with this I responded I still see Mr. Grider as a brother in Christ.

        Also Mr. Grider is more then capable of defending his own actions. If you have an issue with his tone you can talk him about it.

        • Yes, I used the word “jackass” because that was the most Christian way I could describe the ignorance of the comment that I was responding to. For him to say, after (presumably) reading my article, that I was taking the “license to sin” position is OUTRAGEOUS as well as highly-ignorant. NOTHING in my article says or implies that. Not one word. But I did not, as you aptly noted (and thank you) attack the messenger only the message.

    • AndrewA

      What exactly is a response or a proper response that a Christian should have Andrew ? Because so far all I’m seeing is different views on salvation.

      The uptight Pious Christian is the worst sight as for as I am concerned.

      What did Jesus say “full of dead men’s bones “

      • AndrewA

        How about not claiming a person who is making an active declaration that you are only saved if You believe and call on the name of Jesus is somehow not really a christian or that they are damned to hell. That Message, of Jesus being are savior is the very message Jesus proclaims all believers to preach.

        Their is only one Salvation by The blood of Christ are you saved and nothing else. If Jesus did not die on the Cross for are sins we all would be heading for the lake of fire with no hope of redemption.

        If you have an issue with salvation being eternal that is not a discussion about a different salvation but instead how long does it last. If we all agree salvation came from the sacrifice of Jesus and we all call on his name that makes us all brothers and sisters in Christ.

        Also please if you post under my name next time at least reply to it with your actual name.

  • Kimmie

    We can commit (spiritual) adultery/fornication in our betrothal to the Lord. He is coming for a bride who is watching and waiting and without “spot or wrinkle”…if we are not, He will NOT receive us. Just as Jesus said that we could not divorce here on earth except for fornication, it is the same spiritually, since our relationship with Him is a picture of marriage. We cannot be a harlot with the world, even tho we once promised to live for Him, and expect that we can enter in. It is a HUGE deception and (sadly) one that many will find out soon enough (unless there is repentance and a return to our First Love).

  • Salvation is of the Lord from start to finish! Saving faith is a gift of God. God has chosen those who are saved before the foundations of the world. The child of God is secure in Christ because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which are the fruits of conversion. There are many professors but few possessors of Christ. Salvation is not a decision we make for Christ but Christ’s decision to choose us and draw us to Himself and grant us the faith to believe the gospel. The believer cannot continue to practice sin because His seed dwells in him and he cannot continue to practice sin. The believer will preserver in Christ. Though he may fall into sin he will not continue in sin but will repent and continue to fight the good fight of faith. Those who are truly in Christ by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit (THE NEW BIRTH) can never lose their salvation because they have become new creations in Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ doesn’t just offer salvation HE EFFECTUALLY SAVES THOSE HE HAS CHOSEN AND THEY ARE FOREVER SECURE IN CHRIST.

    • Jimmy

      Believer..You should copyright that reply. Well done!!!!

    • Suez

      @Believer…Well, good luck with Mr. G accepting that on also. He will argue the Who so ever will theory with you on that one…LOL ” “There are many professors but few possessors of Christ. Salvation is not a decision we make for Christ but Christ’s decision to choose us and draw us to Himself and grant us the faith to believe the gospel.” I agree with you on this! 🙂 But be prepared to receive the rebukes!!! LOL

  • Please explain these scripturess. Matt7v21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    Matt25v 1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
    6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
    7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
    8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
    9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
    10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    1 John3v 16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
    17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
    18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
    19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
    20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
    21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. T
    22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
    23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
    What about this command to partake in the communion.
    1Cor 11v23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: .
    24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. .
    25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. .
    26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. .
    27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. .
    28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. .
    29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
    CAN YOU BE SAVED AND NOT OBEYING THE COMMANDS OF JESUS?????

  • John McCleary

    Thanks for the great article, Geoffrey! It’s funny this morning I saw an article from Charisma News , from a writer named Bert Farias, and states the opposite. “False converts and fashionable Christians”, in it he states: ” False convert obeys God, Not because he loves Him. But only because he hopes to get something good out of it.” and “So a person may believe that Christ came to save sinners,and on that ground may submit to be saved for his own safety, Without submitting to His Lordship.” I get it, you cannot have a cavalier attitude towards the Lord and His free offer of salvation. Chuck Missler pointed something out interesting: In Mark 16:7, After the Lord’s resurrection and 3 days after Peter denied the Lord, “..Go your way and tell His disciples and Peter..” The Holy Spirit does not insert redundant words. The scripture implies that Peter did not lose his salvation but temporary his discipleship. God Bless

    • Bert

      Amen! I love Chuck missler. He’s a great teacher. I actually had that same discussion with members of the deacon board at my church. Peter had to have his discipleship restored, not his salvation. I do have a little against Chuck though. I disagree with his teaching on the shakina glory but only on a grammatical basis and also his insistence on using gammatria in some(not all) of his teaching. But, on the whole, he is by far my favorite teacher of the word. Mr Grider may not like him because of some of his comments regarding the king jimmy version though. But, nobody can please everyone! Keep up the great work Geoffrey! I love your articles.

  • Sola Scriptura

    I have no idea the balance between grace and salvation, but as I read through the New Testament three times last year and saw all of the warnings to the churches…to the Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians and Thessalonians to be careful to stay in Christ because he will not be mocked…it overturned the american sugar-sweet gospel of say a prayer and believe and then you are saved. “Belief” aka faith is what saves us…but it is not an action of the brain, but is of the heart. There are so many scriptures that say if you love Jesus then you obey him.
    As an attorney, I have been taught that the specific always trumps the general. There are 4 or 5 general verses that could be interpreted as once saved always saved. There are far more specific verses that warn us that we must stay on the path towards Jesus to be saved. He will help us, but we have free will. We can use that free will to, as Paul says, depart from the living God. See below:

    I encourage everyone to get rid of all preconceived notions from your early days and take the words of Paul, Jesus and Peter at face value. Start at Luke 12:22-46 and then check the verses I have quoted below. Also remember that Jesus was going to spit an actual believing church(Laodicean) out of his mouth in Revelation 3 (Laodicea) and he implies that names can be blotted out of the lamb’s book of life.
    This is a critical issue…please dig in.

    This is how Paul viewed even his own salvation. It is hard to ignore or distinguish away:
    “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (‭Hebrews‬ ‭3‬:‭12-14‬ KJV)

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto……all them that obey him; (‭Hebrews‬ ‭5‬:‭9‬ KJV)

    “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭KJV‬

    For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (‭Hebrews‬ ‭10‬:‭26-31‬ KJV)

    For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (‭2 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭20-22‬ KJV)

    A few more:

    Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/1/gal.6.7-8.kjv

    “Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, FALL from your own stedfastness.”
    ‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    …And remember, Paul warned all the believers in every church to stay away from sin. Why if they were free to sin as they want??

    http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2015/02/10/grace-obedience-and-salvation/

    • LIONESS

      God bless that is my stand

  • Jimmy

    I have read estimates that there are perhaps 35,000 to 40,000 different Christian denominations in the world? We can now see why. If the Israelites were healed by just looking up at the Bronze serpent on the pole, might it be the same during this dispensation of grace for Paul declares this is the Gospel..1 Corinthians 15:1-4…Believe…I can go and sit in a garage telling myself until the Lord Jesus returns that I am a car, but I will never be a car. His Spirit confirms with our spirit that we are a child of God. This may seem out in left field but the discussion would be better titled: Define Believing or Faith and not can one lose their Salvation. One man’s opinion!!!!

  • What i’ve never understood is that some people will say, once saved always saved. Suppose someone renounce their faith and becomes an Athiest? They apparently are not saved in the first place,but once saved always saved is not bibical.And they always say Father, Son , Holy Spirit when they baptize? Ok, why then did Jesus say I and my Father are One ?

  • Kimmie

    Geoffrey, There is a glitch with your website. I have seen a lot of the commenter’s emails when I either made a comment myself, or considered making a comment. Your “Post a Comment” policy says that our emails wont be published, but they are.

    • froggie

      He has been told many times about this ongoing problem only to ignore it. Makes me wonder why?

      • Dan

        Froggie , Geoffrey told us he’s working on it a little while back .

        You just missed it.

  • I have never posted to a blog before.
    While reading every comment on this string in a hotel lobby I was lucky enough to get interrupted and able to share my testimony with an unknown person, which deals with prison ministry. The words Calvinism, apostasy, and the acronym OSAS are topics which seem to cause debate and evil conversations amongst good intention minded Christian believers. Talk to a prisoner locked up before 1995, pre home pc use, cell phones and all social media and they typically do not know what your talking about. This age of know all and share all certainly educates us, but have we lost site of a few things? Salvation is free and a simple process if real. I state “real” as I see many people now getting saved for the second third and fourth time as they were not sure of the previous time(s). This is not scriptural. They either were confused or hyped. You are eternally saved the one and only time you accept Jesus. We are to be as disciples and witness to the world. I hesitate responding here as I anticipate I will receive a rash of negative attacks as the author has suffered. My purpose instead of being the recipient of hate responses is to encourage you to share your testimony or talk with an unbeliever. Build up a treasure instead of tearing down a fellow believer.

    • Suez

      Ziobro I would like to know how people posting scripture is associated with hate? Most of us are trying to give scripture out of love and concern, not hate…:( Do you feel if people disagree with your interpretation of scripture, or Mr. G’s then it’s hate? I don’t think so.

  • tony fitz

    I tried to post a comment. Did not get it to work. Now I have tony fitz’s name and personal email pre filled into my comment blocks.
    This is a major error.

  • Alfred

    Without eternal security, how can anyone have peace with God? How can we enter into His rest ? Saved today lost tomorrow, where is the joy? Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, I live yet not I but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Even when we are not faithful, God is always faithful. Our salvation is based on Jesus Christ not anything we can do. This why I believe in the 5 doctrines of grace.

    • Sola Scriptura

      The joy is in the fact that he loves us and died for us. Because of what he did for us, we follow the examples of Paul and Peter and live a life with our eyes fixed steadfastly on Jesus Christ, seeking to love him and honor him in all we do. If we do that, we will be just fine…sins and all. In america, we just want to have it all wrapped up – a transaction, just like in business, so that we can live as we wish…lukewarm and all because we have our ticket punched!! Jesus showed us that salvation isn’t a technicality…it is a life, a heart turned from sin to him…and slowly, by his spirit, he will grow us into his image. …And if lukewarm is really what we want then he will gladly oblige us by spitting us out of his mouth, as he threatened the Laodiceans.
      Jesus suffered mightily for you and me…for our sins. He was beaten and hammered through with spikes in front of our enemies. Never take it lightly. Many will say Lord Lord we did this and that in your name…and he will say away from me, I never knew you! Even Paul worried about this in the 1 Corinthians 9:27 verse I posted earlier. Take it seriously! If you do…if you truly know him and adore him. he will see that, and will protect you with his spirit…getting you safely to the end.

  • Alfred

    If you are truly born again, why would anyone want to jump out of his hands.? 1 John 2:19 They went out from us because they were not of us.

  • Ish

    John 6:66 and they walked with him no more. Yes, we can lose our salvation. But we choose to. We choose to walk with God no more.

    • AndrewA

      I wish you would use another verse or chapter to prove your point.

      Using that verse from the book of John in that way is completely out of context.

      John ch 6 verse 59-66 (kjv)

      59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

      60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

      61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

      62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

      63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

      64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

      65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

      66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

      It says in verse 64 Jesus knew the people who walked away in verse 66 never believed in the first place.

  • Alfred

    Ish- You need to back up a few verses, you have taken that verse John 6:66 out of context. John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth the flesh profit nothing; the words I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life. Verse 64 But there are some if you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe not and who would betray him. Verse 65 Jesus said no man can come to me unless it is given unto him by my Father. John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him. The fact is they were never true believers. If they were they would have stayed. You have to take all verses and put them into context.

  • tony fitz

    Yeshua’s final seventh saying from the cross, “IT IS FINISHED” john 19=30: Officialy “ENDED” the jewish system of THE SACRIFICAL”TEMPLE SYSTEM”. A chosen people, who were to “PROCLAIM” the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to the world, sadley, had failed, and worst of all, their leaders, “REFUSED TO ACCEPT YESHUA, AS MESSIAH”. and had him executed..YESHUA, as messiah, offered “HIMSELF” IN PLACE OF THAT SACRIFICAL SYSTEM”. THUS ENDING IT, AND OFFERING TO ALL MANKIND A “NEW” SYSTEM, BASED ON A BETTER PROMISE..

    please read the book of HEBREWS..AS IT SPEAKS TO THE JEW’S OF THAT TIME..EXPLAIING WHY THE “SACRIFICAL TEMPLE SYSTEM IS FULFILLED IN YESHUA MESSIAH..AND WILL “NEVER” BE BROUGHT BACK AGAIN AS A WORSHIP SYSTEM AGAIN..”YESHUA” WAS THE “SACRIFICE” AND “WE” WHOSOEVER ACCEPTS “YESHUA” AS LORD, AND “GOD”. HAVE ENTERED INTO “ETERNAL LIFE…
    SO IN THE LIGHTOF THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES, THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT THE JEWISH SACRIFICAL SYSTEM OF WORSHIP, WILL BE IMPLEMENTED PRIOR TO THE RETURN OF YESHUA, ARE CONTARY TO “YESHUA” as the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth…
    Please read Galatians 3=28: there is NO JEW, or GREEK, male, or female, for we are ALL ONE, In jesus Christ..
    Also colossians 3=11:.. and in ephesians 2=2=14: states that YESHUA “HAS” broken down the WALL of PARTITION between us..
    See matthew 27=50-54: please note..the temple curtain was “TORN” from TOP to BOTTOM..
    Sad to say, today, because of the LACK OF KNOWLEDGE,of the church on the whole of the above facts, false doctrines have been hatched, as to the expected re building of the temple at jerusalem, and the re introduction of the jewish sacrifical system..the major problem with that false dactrine, is that the jews and their sacrifical system will be attacked by antichrist, when the fact is, by setting up the sacrifical system in jerusalem, will in deed be, the antichrist, as it refuses to accept YESHUA as the only sacrifice acceptable for salvation…Please do your own research..God Bless..tony..

  • Suez

    Here is a quote from a Baptist Preacher named Bill Foster, quoted in the Weekly Worker March 12, 1959 This is how evil and dangerous this OSAS doctrine is: “If I killed my wife, and mother, and debauched a 1,000 women, I couldn’t go to hell, in fact I couldn’t go to hell if I wanted to.” Unbelievable!!!!

    • AndrewA

      You know I have yet been able to find the source document for that quote. It seems to be all over the internet being used against eternal salvation but no one can produce me a copy of the Weekly Worker March 12, 1959 so I can read the whole thing that he was talking about.

      Would you by chance be able to give me a link to the source rather then just a cite?

    • Oh please, that is such childish NONSENSE….I guess this has stopped being a discussion on Bible study and has devolved into an attack on Bible doctrine.

      • Suez

        No, not at all. Just showing how bazaar FALSE doctrine can be!

      • Abigail Sanders

        What you nay-sayers in opposition to OSAS are attempting to do to Christ’s Body bears a striking resemblance to what Planned Parenthood is being exposed doing to the bodies of aborted fetuses. You people are attempting to tear Christ’s Body apart with your ignorance, your pride, your lack of understanding…or you are intentionally bullying to create chaos and confusion. The truth is so simple…those who belong to Jesus Christ, belong to Jesus Christ…from salvation through the process of sanctification He never leaves us nor forsakes us…He causes His own to become like Him. Why do you need it to be another way? Is that too simple for you?

        • Inasmuch As

          >>>What you nay-sayers in opposition to OSAS are attempting to do to Christ’s Body bears a striking resemblance to what Planned Parenthood is being exposed doing to the bodies of aborted fetuses.

          Au contraire! Opponents of OSAS/ES are recognizing those two ideas as heresy and “another gospel” which is anti-Christ.

          Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” OSAS/ESers say, “Jesus did it all so I don’t have to do anything.” That is a damnable heresy.

          Return to the Bible, KJB only please, and stop following false teachers.

          • NO, OSAS/ESers do NOT think “I’m saved and now I don’t have to do anything”, they do NOT think or say “I’m saved I can live any way I like”. That is what people like you say we say, but it’s a lie. Since becoming saved, I have never worked harder in my life, but I am not “working to stay saved”. I am working to fulfill the COURSE that the Lord has given me.

          • bremertonchristian

            So you claim to love God above all things and love your neighbor as yourself huh? If you loved your neighbors as yourself you would be soul winning day and night. Geoffe is a street preacher with an online minisrty, you don’t even come close to that, better hope your wrong. Some of us understand that we are not and never will be good enough. Anyone dare say that they have stopped sinning?

          • Inasmuch As

            >>>bremertonchristian says:

            So you claim to love God above all things and love your neighbor as yourself huh? If you loved your neighbors as yourself you would be soul winning day and night. Geoffe is a street preacher with an online ministry, you don’t even come close to that, …

            No one teaching the false doctrine of OSAS or ES should be witnessing to neighbors or preaching on the street. They make sinners twofold more the child of hell than themselves.

            Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

            Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

    • Derrick

      Do you honestly believe this individual was ever truly sealed?

      “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?” // Romans 6:1-2

  • Suez

    Sure, be glad too. I just happen to run across a video and he had it on their with some others. I was applaud! I’m only 3 min. into the video, so I can’t give any opinion, but these statements made me cringe.

  • eddie santana

    It’s a fair question, Geoff. I wanna know the answer too. If you kill people and debauch 1000 women, and you don’t repent, will one still get to heaven if they’ve found Jesus?

    • OK, and here is a fair answer. No, nothing you can do after salvation can unsave you. Nothing. Not fornication, not murder, not theft, not lying, cheating or stealing. Why? Because we do NOT keep ourselves saved. But here is where you will pay for those choices. Paul says, that at the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST, all saved Christians will give an account for how they lived their life in service for Jesus. It is not a judgment on sin, it’s a judgment on the works we did in our bodies for the Lord. And if we did not do what the Lord saved us to do, we will lose the rewards we could of had if we had been faithful. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;” 2 Corinthians 5:10,11a (KJV). Read more about that here: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/doctrine/faith-works-and-the-judgment-seat-of-christ.htm

      Do you think that every time you sin you become unsaved? Where do you find that in the Bible? Sin breaks our FELLOWSHIP with the Lord, and we use verses like 1 John 1:9 to restore that fellowship. But sin does not and cannot break our salvation. If that were true, the shed blood of Jesus would not be very powerful. At the cross, Jesus paid for ALL our sins – past, present and future. For those of you who deny eternal security, do you think you no longer sin? You must, how else would you arrive at the conclusions you arrive at? And yet, the very act of thinking you are sinless is the sin of pride, proving you yet sin. The Bible says that pride is just as bad as fornication and murder. Pride was the Devil’s sin. When you are filled with pride, you are doing the Devil’s bidding. I know lots of Christians who don’t fornicate, drink, smoke or swear, but they have enough pride to choke a horse. Is that sin? You bet it is. Does it unsave them? No, it does not.

      One day, we will no longer sin, but it will take either the Rapture or death to accomplish it. Until then, we stay prayed up and in fellowship with the Lord. When we sin, confess immediately and repent before the Lord. The Bible promises to wash it away, makes us clean, and restore our fellowship with the Lord.

      “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Titus 3:5-7(KJV)

      • Dan

        Amen to that Geoff

      • Wendy

        Wooo-hoooo, woooo-hoooo….
        PREACH IT, PREACH IT,
        PREACH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • Derrick

        Amen Geoff.

        “The worker therein is the Spirit of God; it is the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Through him we mortify sin, perform duty, walk in God’s ways; all the working of the Divine life in us, and the fruits of righteousness without, are through this blessed and holy Spirit. The Spirit and his saving gifts and graces, come through Christ, as a Saviour, whose undertaking and work are to bring to grace and glory. Justification, in the gospel sense, is the free forgiveness of a sinner; accepting him as righteous through the righteousness of Christ received by faith. God, in justifying a sinner in the way of the gospel, is gracious to him, yet just to himself and his law. As forgiveness is through a perfect righteousness, and satisfaction is made to justice by Christ, it cannot be merited by the sinner himself. Eternal life is set before us in the promise; the Spirit works faith in us, and hope of that life; faith and hope bring it near, and fill with joy in expectation of it.” // Matthew Henry

        Sweet to my soul.

  • John Schulz

    Wow! I’m gobsmacked. I’ve haven’t seen such utter erroneous and irresponsible opinion on the word of God in a while. If any out there already believes this then you will probably applaud it. To anyone who is sincere in knowing what God really thinks, please do your own study as you will find that only those that persevere to the end shall be saved.
    Staying saved is a daily cross (Luke 9:23), and not just a “happy thought”.

    • Wendy

      Has it ever occurred to you all that “persevering to the end” deals with sincerity of FAITH, not works??!?

      Life offers plenty of reasons to doubt God, His goodness, His sovereignty etc. I’m sure plenty of people who believe they know Him fall away at some point, especially after trials! They become apostates.

      Persevering/enduring to the end refers to not giving up on Him IN YOUR HEART AND MIND until the end of your life. THEN you can feel confident that yours was truly a saving faith.

      For all of you who feel that you need to keep striving to please Him to KEEP your salvation, then you are adding WORKS to what Jesus did on the Cross for you!

      Can’t you see that?!? Works are important, as is repentance, because we love Him and are grateful and want to please Him…NOT, REPEAT NOT, to get saved by faith and “keep it” by works.

      PLEASE…THINK ABOUT THAT. Geoffrey’s article is correct.

  • becca

    Geoffrey,
    Thank you for this article that is saturated with Scripture. It does sadden me to see so many commenting that deny eternal security because there are a multitude of truly born again folks who deal with or have dealt with doubt about their salvation (usually due to sin, though not always). The parable of the prodigal son is such an encouragement for every believer and it’s wonderful how the account of Noah and his family also points to our being “sealed” in Christ. “When the harvest has been gathered and all my work is done; when the last smile has trembled and I’ve sung my final song; then let the blood of Calvary speak for me…May it write me down as righteous where no righteousness has been, keeping me from wrath and judgment as it covers all my sin. There’s no work that I’ve accomplished nor my goodness I would plea…just let the blood of Calvary…the precious blood of Calvary speak for me” AMEN!

    • Amen, if only more could grasp that simple yet powerful truth.

  • JC

    I will agree that God is always ready to forgive, as how the father of the prodigal son forgave. But let us not put our guard down. Yes no one can take away our salvation. No one can take us away from the hands of God. But what if a Christian itself decided not to believe in God and Jesus, anymore? Yes he can ask forgiveness from God and He will forgive him. But what if the rapture, second coming of Christ Jesus, happened or if he died, when he is at the state of being lost away from God, can we still say that he is still saved? Although we are not to judge him and only God can.

    The parable of the prodigal son is about Gods love and forgiveness, that is just one side of relationship between us and God. We also have to remember the parable of the ten virgins. Let us remember that all of the ten virgins waited, (it means they represented the Christians / believers of Jesus – for non-Christians / non-believers will of course are not waiting for the second coming) , for the groom, Jesus. But only the five of them are ready and the other were not allowed to join the ceremony, the wedding.

    Yes, I do believe that God if always ready to receive and forgive us. But as Christian we are also instructed to be watchful, we have to always pray, read His word and take care of our brothers in Christ. Because everyday we are tempted, and could fall. Although the Bible say that it is through Christ we can be saved, and we can not add anything to gain it, but we are instructed to work it out.

    • Suez

      Amen!

  • Alfred

    Those people are reprobates, That is why God gave them up. They were never save to begin with

  • eddie santana

    Hi Wendy. Thanks, and I hope the fires get better.

    • Larry / vietnamvet1971

      @ Bill, GODS Plan of Salvation was to ( 1.) Redeem His Church (Bride) (2.)Redeem Us that accept HIS Plan from being Slaves to SIN and to (3.)Redeem his creation Earth from Satan. Each person has to come to the Saving Grace & Knowledge of Jesus Christ and HIS Blood sacrifice which He shed Once & for ALL, I Believe in OSAS and if people have Doubt about their Salvation then maybe they are not saved. Once we receive the Holy Spirit (the Restrainer) HE will not let us go crazy Sinning like before our acceptance of receiving our Salvation ( I may not be expressing it right.) Just my opinion, GOD’s Plan is not to have us jumping through hoops, guessing, thinking, Doubting BUT Trusting in JESUS and His Work for us. I know it sounds SIMPLE but I myself will TRUST HIM by His Grace & Mercy & FAITH.

  • Alfred

    Mr. Grider without the 5 Doctrines if grace eternal salvation cannot stand alone. You can’t prove it without sovereign grace or sovereign election .

    • God is not a Calvinist, He did not make people to who could not be saved. Salvation is a FREE gift, FREELY offered and must be accepted by an act of our FREE will.

  • Good luck on that… you seem to miss a whole lot of other verses but what do i care. I just don’t believe like you. The future will tell who is right.

  • Marc

    Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is valid only if we consider that the salvation is a process that ends when we enter in heaven. Only when we are in heaven we can say “once saved always saved”.

    It is true that people who believe in Jesus are saved, BUT, this faith must be a real faith. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

    But now the Gospel has been watered down, and “believe in Jesus and you will bw saved” has become just like a magic spell. Because of this, the church now has become an evil entertainment place where poor people are abused and robbed to serve that “church” that expends into millions dollars buildings that look like big theatres or community centres rather than a house of prayer. While pastors says “once saved always saved”, they abuse people by saying: “If you don’t come to church you are not a Christian”, and “If don’t tithe you are a thief, you wear stollen garnment and drive stollen cars”. So these pastors add conditions to the OSAS they preach, but only conditions that satisfy their lust.

    There are limits to evangelization. When people did not receive the disciples, they left that city and shook off the dust of their feet against them. The disciples had not washed down the gospel in order to make it easily acceptable. Now rock music addicted Christians use worldly methods to attract youths, using the beat as bait, to catch them into an evil entertaining church. Their gospel is “you can go to heaven while you are enjoying church entertainment.” They say, “Just believe in Jesus and you are saved.” They don’t speak about repentance because most of people doesn’t want to hear that, and it will hurt the church attendance and income!
    The Devil also believe Jesus is the Son of God and can also quote a lot Bible verses, but he will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.(Revelation 20:10)

    Because of that OSAS, most of Christians have forgotten the fear of God. They only like a “love” gospel, but don’t accept a “love and fear God” gospel. But God’s salvation is not unconditional, God wants a broken and contrite heart. “Christian” rock music and Christian contemporary music, like movie music, is based on sensuality. Jesus has become a star, a lover, and a man made idol; there are no more holiness, no more conviction of sin, no more real repentance, there are no more holy things left in the church.
    OSAS. Another name for the large gate and broad way that leadeth to the destruction.

    The Devil Has Entred Into The Church:

    http://www.marcfalcone.com/index_files/Devilinthechurch.htm

    • suez

      @marc. Amen, and we’ll said brother.

  • Todd

    People let’s remember that we are not going to agree on every single doctrine. At this time in history I think it’s more important to witness to the unbeliever and win lost souls. For God doesn’t intend anyone to parish.
    I could give my thought on this but really it’s all been covered by smarter people than me. In the end we are just splitting hairs,gagging on nats and swallowing elephants. If I weren’t saved and stumbled upon this blog I would have second thoughts of Christians.
    Please remember that it really don’t matter whether you believe OSAS or falling away is gospel or not. The truth of the matter is that we strive to be salt and light in a fallen world that’s only hope is in Christ. If we’re saved then why worry if we can lose it or not. The whole book of James is dealing with faith without works is dead. James is not stating that we can lose our salvation or that we are to work for it. James is merely stating that if your saved you actions will show it. Not that we’re to work to keep it or earn it(salvation).

    Let’s live our lives so that our bothers will see our good works and praise our heavenly father, Amen. Not that we can earn brownie points or maintain a salvation that is free but not cheap.

  • Todd

    Uh, Amen Marc. I agree 100%!

  • Alfred

    Does God know everything, of course he does . So he knows who will be saved and those who will not be saved. So by your reasoning . God will create people who he knows will reject him and will go to hell. Is that fair?

    • Abigail Sanders

      One of the biggest misnomers on the part of human beings is their need to apply human reasoning to the thoughts and ways of God…God does not operate according to human reasoning or human logic. He is way outside that realm. In fact, human reasoning and human logic are fruits taken from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As is your inane comment.

      • Larry / vietnamvet1971

        Amen, Amen & did I say AMEN. That is why we are to Believe in FAITH what GOD says not mere mans reasoning or thinking for it is from SATAN attacking our minds with DOUBT if he can plant his seed of DOUBT and like a weed it will grow BUT we must Plant the Good Word of GOD and it will produce fruit of Righteousness. Our minds are the Battle field so GUARD it carefully.

    • AndrewA

      If God gave everyone the same information and chance to be saved. One takes it and the Other does not how is that not fair.

      Both parties were given the same chance with the same information.

      What did Abraham say to the Rich Man in hell when he asked to send someone to warn his relatives.

      Luke Ch 16 verse 29-31
      29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

      30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

      31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

      Now we have the Gospels of Jesus the Christ and the writings of the Apostles to listen to. Everyone has the same chance.

  • Alfred

    AMEN, This is why people do not understand the sovereignty of God.

  • Alfred

    Why did you accept God’s free gift of grace ? What makes you different from your neighbor ?

    • Abigail Sanders

      The Holy Spirit drew me to it…

      “Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee. Draw me Lord, and I will run after you.” (Song 1:4)

      What makes me different from my neighbor? I choose Life!

      “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Duet 30:19)

  • Alfred

    You misunderstood my comment. I am a sovereign grace believer. I believe the sovereignty of God. He is in total control of everything. So therefore your comment is wrong. He knows the end from the beginning.

    • AndrewA

      God knows but Mankind does not.

      Their is a choice in salvation. The choice is do I believe and accept or do I reject.

      All are condemned unless they believe. While God may know the answer he still gives everyone a fair and open chance to accept the sacrifice and be saved.

      If I ask you to do something but I already know whether you are going to do it or not does that have any effect on your ability to decide?

      The answer is no. Regardless of what I know you still have the ability to decide to do it or not.

    • Amen!

  • Alfred

    Does the Holy Spirit draw everyone? You didn’t answer my ? I will ask you again why did you respond to the Holy Spirit and your neighbor would not?

    • Abigail Sanders

      Here is where we come to some of the most important words spoken by The Father in the entirety of scripture: “And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.” (Luke 9:35) And, if you truly want an answer to that question, you will have to do just that…ask Jesus…and wait on Him for His answer.

      I don’t know everything, but I do know some things: As I know God is a just God, then I would answer yes, everyone is drawn at some time in some fashion. Why did I respond and my neighbor did not? I couldn’t say…Only The Father knows that and He’s not telling me…perhaps He will tell you in regard to your own response to His calling.

    • Abigail Sanders

      Okay Alfred, I get it…why did I become who I am in Christ and my neighbor did not? By a Sovereign Act of God which clearly supports the OSAS doctrine. If I understand that my salvation and my positioning IN CHRIST are a result of a sovereign act of God, there is no way #1)I would want out of that nor #2)could I get out of that.

      I think this entire discourse on OSAS has been very enlightening…it has divided…the sheep from the goats, those who think they’re saved from those who know they’re saved, the milk drinkers from the meat eaters, the children from the men, those who know about Jesus from those who know Jesus. Amen.

    • Abigail Sanders

      Alfred, I just wanted you to know that since you and Chesterfield Walrond ministered to me re: Parable of the Sower, my faith has soared up to a new level of understanding. You see, I was having a hard time thinking that God would choose me, chief-est of sinners as a sovereign act of His Will…because I’ve never really done anything, in my estimation, for the Kingdom. I mean, okay, I can sing in the choir, if you get my drift. But the revelation hit me, that, yes, God chose me ME as an act of His sovereign will to salvation and positioned me ME in the Body of Christ. You know, I just want to testify that since that conversation we had, although very brief, I have been meditating on that very truth, and I have seen the unmerited favor of God manifesting MUCH MORE, daily, in my life. One Word from God can change your life forever! Praise the Name of Jesus! Thank you Alfred and Chesterfield, and thank you Geoffrey for pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:14

  • Abigail,This scripture may be one of the answer to your question.Matt 13v3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
    4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
    5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
    6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
    7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
    8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
    9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? If you get this ,you will see four classes of people who heard the same word.It is the same today. Whether you are a street preacher, or have a mega church. There are people who tell you they will pray for you and you will be saved. This is false according to Romans 10v 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    In Acts is another part of the whole The Jews as Peter what to do to be saved ch2v37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? .
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul did not mention baptism at that point.

    • Abigail Sanders

      Yes, very good, Parable of the Sower…which begs the next question: Why was your ground good ground for the Word and your neighbors ground wasn’t? We have to ask, then, who is the tiller of the soil?

      “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.” (Jhn 15:1) Husbandman in the Greek is translated in Strong’s Concordance “tiller of the soil.” So truthfully, we are again looking at a sovereign act of The Father. No?

  • Alfred

    John 6:44 No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him: John 6:65, Jesus again reaffirms Therefore no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. There is your answer, we are born spiritually dead. Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he (Holy Spirit) quicken(made alive) who were DEAD in trespasses and sins. A just God? You do not want justice from God. Why? If Gid gave to everyone what we deserve we all would go to hell. That is what we deserve. But, God who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us (the elect) Paul is writing to believers. So you want grace not justice.

  • Robin

    Erroneous doctrine.

    Please people, I implore you, do not fall for this ‘once saved always saved’ doctrine. Jesus said that we need to be perfect like the Father (Math 5.48) There are other verses like: Be ye holy as I am holy. If you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth. Only the overcomers will inherit the throne etc. etc.

    I wish this site will stick to sharing news regarding end times rather than try to teach Scripture when it is clear they have no idea! Hope no one falls for this doctrine and says, ‘Well, I can now go and sin to my heart’s content because once saved always saved!’

  • Alfred

    It will be impossible for a true born again Christian to take the mark of the beast. Why? If the Holy Spirit dwells in you, he is much more powerful than the anti Christ . And if you believe in the pre trib rapture , a believer will not be here to take the mark .

  • Alfred

    Please tell me how to be perfect. Impossible in ourselves this why Jesus paid it all on the cross. When he died and rose on the third day and if you are a true believer you were justified. We stand in Jesus, he was perfect for us , because you can never be. Read your bibles and study them people.

  • Jimmy

    What guidelines or protocol does one need to follow to lose your Salvation? If someone is born again, how do they accomplish unborn? If one is hidden with Christ in God, what can separate you?

    • Sola Scriptura

      Read the scriptures I posted earlier. Paul and Peter spell it out nicely…willful, unrepentant sin. To some it up, as Paul told the CHURCH in Galatia, do not be deceived. God will not be mocked. If you sow to please the sinful nature you will, by that nature reap corruption.

      All 90 plus verses telling us that that God’s wrath is coming on the….disobedient. To truly believe, you must obey. Belief isn’t some technicality, it a matter of heart proven, as Paul said, by or deeds. We all just want our guaranteed free ticket to heaven and then, no matter what sin we are in to, to be raptured up before any tribulations take place. Ummm no. Paul, Peter, James et al went to their deaths gladly…preaching the pure gospel message of sin, repentance and grace. We sit in our nice houses counting our cash, going to church and joining a men’s group or two. It ain’t good enough. We are told to bear fruit or we will be cut down and thrown into the fire. We are given talents and if we do not use them to share his mercy, we will be cast out to the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. MANY will say that they prophesied, etc. in his name and he will say away from me I never knew you!
      The road is narrow my friends and the american sugar-candy gospel is music to our itching ears but it doesn’t save. Brothers and sisters…don’t let it be you who is cast into hell. Don’t let it be you…..

    • Sola Scriptura

      …And consider reading what I posted below. It has all the warnings from Jesus in the gospels through Jesus in Revelation. This is critical stuff. Let us err on the side of obedience and trust, not to earn anything but because we adore him. Ideally, we wouldn’t even thing OSAS or not…we would just live a life with our heart, eyes, and minds fixed on Jesus Christ, the author and perfecto of our faith, who, for the joy set before him, endured the cross, scorning it’s shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
      http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2015/02/10/grace-obedience-and-salvation/

      • Inasmuch As

        solo scriptura: Two excellent posts. Well done!

        • Sola Scriptura

          Thank you my friend. My heart is for people to take the grace and love of Jesus seriously. Eternity is at stake.

    • Wendy

      NOTHING!!!

  • Jimmy

    If you are a Born Again Believer, do you still sin? What about the carnal Corinthians, particularly the man having a relationship with his step-mother. Might the Lord just take people out as the Apostle Paul suggests? Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    • Inasmuch As

      Jimmy wrote: If you are a Born Again Believer, do you still sin? What about the carnal Corinthians…

      Leonard_Ravenhill (1907-1994) said, “I doubt that more than two percent of professing Christians in the United States are truly born again.” and “Get rid of this bunkum about the ‘carnal Christian’. Forget it! If you’re carnal, you’re not saved.”

      • Jimmy

        I hope one day you meet that carnal Christian, who had the affair with his step-mother in Heaven. Paul does imply that he is the Lord’s on the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ. Does Ravenhill’s estimate surprise me, No. How many are saved is not the topic, it’s can one lose their Salvation?

  • eddie santana

    The question is are you working as a result of fruits of the Spirit, or working to earn your way…only a person knows in their heart which one it is…

  • Sola Scriptura

    Well, this is what Paul thinks aboutt his own salvation:
    “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/1/1co.9.27.kjv

    He and Peter both, say the same thing many many times. But we don’t want to use the “whole counsel” of God. Instead we like the pithy little phrases that men invent to give themselves and their flock false comfort. As for me. I don’t have all the answers on salvation or the rapture…but I will stick with the clear and concise comments of Paul and Peter such as the one above. I suggest you at least consider the same.

  • Alfred

    Sins that will keep you out of heaven? I guess Christ’s death was in vain. When he said it was finish, it was finished. Now I know what meant when he said o foolish Galatians who have bewitched you. That list is unforgiven sins. Rest in Jesus he paid it all. My sins where a crimson stain he washed it white as snow. Therefore there is condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That my friend is the gospel

  • Don

    This is my first time posting here. Their are plenty of scripture that prove man can fall again such as James 1:13-15, Heb 2:1-3 neglecting ones salvation, Matt. 12:43-45, the most telling is 2 Peter 2:20-22 ” for if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.” That’s clear for everyone to see, but some will deny it. I could post many more but will end with 2 Peter 2:1-14, in verse 4 “For God spared not the Angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.” then I ask how a servant of God with access to heaven for perhaps thousands of years could fall, yet some think they cannot?

  • Tusitala

    I am relatively new to being born-again, I was Catholic most of my life. I have read all these comments with great interest, such passion, so many Biblical references, it is a bit overwhelming to me in many ways. I read in the Word, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11: 28-30. I also read that “..If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Romans 10:9. Jesus said that we are simply to come to HIM, and that He is not a burden but a rest. Paul said that we are to believe in and declare Jesus as our risen Saviour and be saved. To me this all sounds simple and beautiful, to believe in Jesus and confess it, and have Him live in your heart. I guess I am not knowledgeable enough on this, I came to the Lord so late in my life. I am so enamored of Jesus and His Word, I sometimes cry from just being relieved to be free from the burden of religion and free in His embrace. I watch my family with their rosaries, their blessed salt, their statues, all the novenas, trying to earn what Jesus so freely gives, I cannot bring myself to complicate it. I apologize for my ignorance, I am struggling with persecution right now and I find nothing but Jesus and the Bible comforts me. Please pray for me, brothers and sisters. I ache for us all adrift in this evil world and reaching for the heaven which awaits at the sound of His blessed Voice.

    • Jimmy

      Tusitala..Please don’t let all this infighting discourage you. Thank you for sharing. All I know is the worst day with Jesus is better than any day I ever had in my old life…Hang in there..It appears Jesus is soon to come!!!

      • Tusitala

        Thank you, Jimmy… I feel the same, that Jesus is on His way.

    • suez

      Tusitala, Sounds like your doing fine. Just love Jesus and call upon him for strength. 🙂

      • Tusitala

        Thanks, Suez… I love Jesus, He is my constant companion, even as I struggle.

        • Suez

          @ Tusitala As he should be, for all of us! We all struggle at times. I’ve been in Christ Jesus for 41 years, I still struggle at times. Eph_6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
          Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
          Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
          Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
          Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
          Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; We just need to keep our Armour polished and on at all times!!! 🙂 God Bless you sister!

          • Tusitala

            Thank you, Suez…these verses from Ephesians are some I read over and over. They resonate with me. Jesus has been so faithful to me through all my years of apostasy, it has been a long, torturous journey, but I stand now with Him. I cannot imagine what use someone like me is to Him, but I love Him and will always serve only Him in whatever way He chooses, armed and ready, knees trembling at times!

    • James Montgomery

      Tusitala I like you, was saved late in life. I am now 71 and was saved 3 years ago. I can not imagine how anyone who is saved can turn away from Christ. Some people in this forum are using Ananias and his wife Sapphira as Christians that have departed from Christ. Acts chapter 5: 1. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2. and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4. Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why has thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. 7. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. (By the actions of this married couple shows they were not saved. Why were they holding some back? Perhaps in case this Christian thing might not work out for them?)
      Don’t think that I am a great Bible scholar. But I am getting better by doing a lot of reading on Christians sites and blogs. But, I did know that it was in Acts. I am on my third reading of the Bible and have the KJB on my all of my computers. So I went to my laptop to the KJB and simply put in the search string, sold possession and scrolled down until Acts. Another one took me several tries to find it. That was Simon. He is written in Acts, chapter 8. His name is first mentioned in verse 9 but it would be well to start with verse 1 to see what led up to his action. His purpose was not to follow Christ but to be an important person. Also prayers for you and all Christians because times are going to get harder for Christians in the Western World and have already became horrific in the Middle East and many Islamic countries. Peace be with you brother.

      • Tusitala

        Thank you, James, for the encouragement. The part of Acts about Ananias and Sapphira shocked me terribly when I first read it. I can see this happening, the sun setting, the breeze rising, the confrontations, the thud of the bodies as life departed them, the sound of the feet of those burying them, the amazement, the whispers. And Simon, imagine his total confusion, he realized suddenly that this was REAL, perhaps he thought it was a new twist on an old scam. I look at my life as nothing until I was saved, just a preamble to what is happening now, and I count myself very blessed to be in the number of saints, I am surely the least of His servants, but I am here and I will STAND to the end.

    • Wendy

      YaY, Tusitala!! The good Lord has given you eyes to see and ears to hear! I, too, came from a family if “non-practicing” Catholics (I find that term sadly amusing…) and I understand your persecution, if indeed, they are the ones persecuting you. I get that from my family who think I’m going thru some 20-year phase or something! So far, the Lord has chosen to keep their minds blinded and their hearts hard.

      It weighs heavily upon me.

      Do you have a “Life Verse”? One that He “highlights” in your mind, that you find yourself going to over and over again?

      Mine is Romans 8:28, which says, “ALL things work together FOR GOOD for those who LOVE GOD and ARE CALLED according to His purpose.”

      ALL things, Tusitala. How much is “all”??

      NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BORN- AGAIN BELIEVER, our sovereign Father has allowed it into our lives, and PROMISES that He will work it for our betterment! What an amazing verse!!! WHAT AN AMAZING GOD!!!

      If you want some encouragement for dealing with any of life’s negativities, like persecution for example, starting there certainly is like a soothing balm to ones heart.

      May peace be with you~~

      • Tusitala

        Thank you, Wendy, I often think of those words: ALL THINGS…it is so difficult to encompass at times, EVERY, SINGLE thing. It is humbling to think how very intimate Jesus loves us, how He intervenes in the tiniest matters, such Love!

        I do indeed have a life verse. “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.” Psalm 119:18 It came about because as a Catholic I never read the true Word of God and was confused and longing for the love of the Bible I saw in born again friends, they seemed to get so much from it. When I finally opened and read the King James Bible despite decades of Catholic teaching of hatred for that holy book, the scales fell from my eyes because I knew that I had been deceived, none of the idolatry and doctrine of the Roman church was true, I was lifted up in Jesus’ arms into the Light of Truth.

  • Brandon

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    • bremertonchristian

      The key words there are (never knew you)… not I don’t know you anymore. Read slowly and understand every word.

      • Inasmuch As

        bremerton Christian wrote: “The key words there are (never knew you)… not I don’t know you anymore. Read slowly and understand every word.”

        Let’s start with KJB: Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

        He is speaking to Antinomians ( http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Salvation_Issues/antinomians_are_coming.htm ), a-nomos, no law, lawless ones. They have been taught wrongly that they don’t have to keep any law or as in the case of OSASers, have any works. They have believed “another gospel” and of course he doesn’t know them.

        Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

        While legalists are all law, OSASers and other Antinomians are No law.

        A.W. Tozer said: “…Antinomianism is the doctrine of grace carried by uncorrected logic to the point of absurdity. It takes the teaching of justification by faith and twists it into deformity.”

  • Mark Stephens

    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Once saved always saved is not true – Your name would have to be in the book for it to be taken out. That means – Your salvation is no more.

    • AndrewA

      Jesus never said he removed only that he wouldn’t remove.

      You can infer that names are removed but it is never declared names are removed your making a pure assumption.

      You could also assume that Jesus is saying that he will never remove you from the book of life if you are overcome. As an assurance that once your saved or have overcome your name will never be removed from the book of life.

      The answer to which assumption is right is set on what does it mean to overcome luckily 1 John ch 5 verse 4-6 tell us.

      4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

      5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

      6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

      So if you believe in Jesus you over come the world So the verse you just tried to use disprove eternal security in fact proves eternal security. For all who believe on the name of Jesus will not have their name blotted out of the book of life for they have overcame the world.

      • Larry / vietnamvet1971

        I agree Amen, I do not know why people are trying so hard to Disprove their Salvation. But Satan will play with your mind and confuse you to doubt, Believe & have Faith in what JESUS has done.

        • Jimmy

          Amen

  • Kimmie

    Everyone needs to read the (NT) bible (for themselves) and see how many times we are warned to “take heed”, and how many times the words are spoken of for us to “keep” and “continue”, and we must not overlook the all too important little word, “if”… I for one would not want to (sadly) find out which “doctrine” is correct by erroring on the side of “grace covers all” only to find out that Jesus …meant what He said when He said He would be coming back for a church that is without spot or wrinkle, (not one that is dirtied up with the world and it’s ways.) If one is living as close to God as possible, then the doctrine wouldn’t matter. However, if one is “touching the unclean thing” and is counting on that “once you are saved, you are always saved” to be put into action, I am afraid that one will be very shocked when the Lord returns. He clearly said to “Come out from among them and be ye separate (says the Lord) and touch NOT the unclean thing and I will receive you.” (2 Cor. 6:17)
    A lot of wonderful preachers preach that doctrine that they were taught in bible school, but I so worry that many people are “falsely” ready to meet the Lord because they were told that because they once prayed “the” prayer they are saved & sealed no matter what.

    Everyone needs to read the (NT) bible (for themselves) and see how many times we are warned to “take heed”, and how many times the words are spoken of for us to “keep” and “continue”, and we must not overlook the all too important little word, “if”…

    I, for one, would not want to (sadly) find out which “doctrine” is correct by erroring on the side of “grace covers all” only to find out that Jesus really meant it when He said He would be coming back for a church that is without spot or wrinkle, (not one that is dirtied up with the world and it’s ways.)

    If one is living as close to God as possible, then the doctrine wouldn’t matter. However, if one is “touching the unclean thing” and is counting on that “once you are saved, you are always saved” to be put into action, I am afraid that one will be very shocked when the Lord returns. He clearly said to “Come out from among them and be ye separate (says the Lord) and touch NOT the unclean thing and I will receive you.” (2 Cor. 6:17)

    A lot of wonderful teachers and preachers preach that doctrine that they were taught in bible school or in their church, but I so worry that many people are “falsely” ready to meet the Lord because they were told that because they once prayed “the” prayer they are saved & sealed no matter what…

    • AndrewA

      Kimmi eternal salvation is not a license to Sin. It does not mean I can sin with out fear of God. If any say that know this:

      1 John chapter 2 verse 4
      4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

      If they Sin with out fear of God they are not of God.

      For as is said in 1 John chapter 5 verse 1-3
      1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

      2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

      3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

      People who Love God and are saved strive to keep the commandments and not sin. For we Love God and know God wants us to keep them. We may stumble but because we believe on the name of Jesus we have the following.

      1 Jhon ch 2 verse 1-2

      1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

      2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

      So even if we stumble Jesus will speak on are behalf and save us. You should not want to sin eternal salvation is not a belief to Sin with out regret of God.

      It only means by God’s Love and are belief on Jesus are we saved. We are secure in are eternal life and have overcome the world. Any who sin without remorse are not of God but the Devil.

      Also any who says the following:
      1 John ch 4 verse 15
      15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

      That is it the only thing needed to be saved.

      You should read 1st John kimmi same goes to you eddie santana. It might help you.

    • Kimmie

      Sorry that I repeated my message twice! I guess that must mean it was twice as important to read it. 🙂 🙂

    • Dan

      Kimmie 1 John 3:9 says for his seed remains in him and he (cannot) sin because he is born of God.

      Kimmie the word cannot means exactly what it means. So if this is true you should never sin again right? Of course not we all know we still stumble even after we accept Christ.

      My point is God is telling us in 1 John 3:9 that the spirit (seed) that we receive does not sin (ever). Kimmie this is what makes us acceptable to God while we’re still in the flesh.

      Kimmie this is what saves us this is the meaning of born again. Its because of this seed (holy spirit) we are counted as worthy so that nothing you do counts for your salvation and it is GOD who gets all the credit for your salvation.

      Blessings

      • Dan, exactly right. In my FLESH I have sinned since salvation and will continue to do that. But in my BORN AGAIN spirit I do not and can not sin again. Hence the Romans 7 “war” that Paul talks about.

      • AndrewA

        Thank you, Dan I should of included that into what I was talking about earlier. I somehow forgot completely about it. So, Dan thanks again for explaining that.

  • eddie santana

    I love you Kimmie! You said a mouthful! If people want to lean on the OSAS doctrine after that, they do it at their own peril. God’s saving grace is perfect, but woe to those that would seek to abuse it. I will say this…if you’re worried about your salvation, chances are that is evidence you’re fine. Just confess and repent for anything you think you may have done wrong, and despite everything, God has His hand on you!

    • Kimmie

      Thank you, Eddie!

  • eddie santana

    Arggggghhhhh! :)~

  • Wendy

    Oh, gerrrrr-eeee (Geri),
    We miss you, Sister!

  • eddie santana

    Let me answer that for Geoff, cuz I believe I am familiar with his argument. Geoff says you may jump out, but you only lose “your reward,” not “your salvation.” But, in my humble opinion, I believe lazy Christians will lose their rewards, but permanently backslidden and rebellious ex-Christians will indeed lose their salvation. (They say that the most avid atheists were once Christians, or at least grew up with/in church.) (No Virginia, there isn’t a Santa Claus, and yes Geoffrey, people can sour on the Christian faith, and Do!)

    • AndrewA

      Once again you really need to read the Book 1 John.

      1 John ch 2 verse 19

      19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    • Dan

      Geoffrey, you can’t make it any simpler than you have already.

      You know when GOD gave the Jews the 10 commandments and they said they would adhere to every one. Things may have been different if they instead cried out to GOD in humility and instead asked for his help because they couldn’t possibly be worthy enough without his help.

      But we all know they(Jews) stood pridefully and said Yes GOD we will follow every one of your commandments.

      Its ironic how Christians are doing the same thing with Salvation.

  • Once saved always saved, is NOT A BIBLICAL DOCTRINE! IT IS A TRADITION OF MAN!

    The Bible is very clear that you can be cut off of from God’s holy family tree (Romans 11:17-23). You can, if you become lukewarm, be spewed out of His mouth (Revelation 3:16). If you chose to deny Him, He will deny you before the Father (Matthew 10:33). Is it possible for a name to be blotted out of God’s book? Read those verses and you’ll find out: Revelation 3:5 ; Psalm 69:28 ; Ezekiel 13:9.

    The righteous is able to shrink back. It is written in the Word of God:

    “But my righteous one shall live by faith: And IF HE SHRINK BACK, my soul hath no pleasure in him. But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.” (Hebrews 10:38-39 – ASV).

    If a believer don’t follow after sanctification He won’t see the Lord:

    “Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD.” (Hebrews – 12:14)

    A man who have known the way of truth and was pardoned of all his sins can return to his old sins:

    “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. For it were better for them NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after knowing it, TO TURN BACK from the holy commandment delivered unto them. It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20-22 – ASV)

    Needless to say, that these verses are referring also to believers as well as unbelievers. If it was true that all believers are locked into being always saved, why this warning?

    In later times, there will be many believers who will fall away from the truth and will lose their salvation:

    “But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some SHALL FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.” (1 Timothy 4:1 – ASV)

    How can this verse be referring to a non believer, if he is not already in the faith? HOW CAN YOU DEPART FROM THE FAITH IF YOU WERE NOT SAVED? ONLY PEOPLE WHO WERE ONCE SAVED CAN DEPART FROM THE FAITH!

    Only those who will endure to the end shall be saved (Matthew 10:22) and those are the believer who abide in the Word of God (John 8:31). And if they don’t abide in the Word (Jesus), who is also the vine, the Father will cut the branch that bears not fruit (John 15:1-2). It is referring to the believers who stop bearing fruit/good works. Remember the words Jesus had spoken: “BY THEIR FRUITS ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:16).

    So now you know that OSAS is a false doctrine and a real Christian won’t never believe in this teaching that comes not from the Scripture but from men’s tradition. Stop spreading this lie which comes from the pit of hell and repent from this heresy. You are bringing many believers to hell because of this false doctrine and God won’t let you unpunished, make no mistakes about it.

    Who hath ears to hear, let him hear

    • Gianluca, let me ask you a question. Since the day you got saved, have you committed any sin of any kind?

      • Geoffrey there is a huge difference between living in sin and falling into sin. Those who live a sinful life are sinners or carnal Christian and they walk in the flesh by choice. The fall is not voluntary. A Christian does his best to standing on his feet but he trips and falls, due to his Adamic nature. Remember what the apostle Paul said in Romans 7:15? Furthermore the “RIGHTEOUS MAN FALLETH seven times, and riseth up again” (Proverbs 24:16 – ASV), so it is possible for a Christian fall into sin. But the real Christian will immediately go to confess his sin to God, and our great Father will forgive him. God is faithful because is not a man, that He should lie. The Almighty is also merciful and knows very well that we are just flesh and dust. As Christians we are still subject to fall into sin as long as we’re in this body. But the Bible says that “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous TO FORGIVE US our sins, and TO CLEANSE US from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9 – ASV). It is true that we must not sin, but “if any man sin, WE HAVE AND ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation FOR OUR SINS; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2 – ASV).

        Brethren the 1 John 1:9 verse is very important for us, because our adversary seizes on our falls in order to get us more and more away from the Lord, making us feel unworthy of being called children of God, conjuring thoughts in our minds, that God don’t love us anymore.

        But we must respond to the devil with the Word of God.

        Even when “we are faithless, HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL; for he cannot deny himself” (2 Timothy 2:13 – ASV).

        In the light of the above, it’s very important to memorize these Bible verses, because when the devil will attack the one that fall into sin, in order to accuse him, he will respond with these Bible passages and he’ll go back to being victorious in Christ!

        “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God WHO JUSTIFIES.” (Romans 8:33 – ASV)

        God is the One who forgive all our iniquities (Psalm 103:3) and He does not treat us as our sins deserve (Psalm 103:10). How great is our God!

        Thanks be to God, He always supports us and has mercy on us through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Amen!

        Saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ: Gianluca Colucci

        • Dan

          Colucci, when you woke up this morning you were a Colucci. Your a Colucci because your father was a Colucci as was his father.

          In the same way my brother you are a sinner.

          Instead thank GOD for dying for you! Thank him Praise Him Rejoice because of him !

          The only thing that comes from doing wrong is whatever consequence comes from it.

          But the fact that you are from Adam no longer matters anymore to GOD because he crucified you on the cross. And because of that you belong to him. And you can now no more change that fact than you can change the fact that you are a Colucci !

          Its like you waking up and saying “you know today I’m going to try not to be such a Colucci. I’m going to be as good as I can so to not be such a Colucci.

          God sees so many of us doing this instead of being happy for what GOD has already paid in full.

          The same goes for how you act. No matter whether your good or bad your still a Colucci . Be good for the sake of being good. After all Christ said only GOD truly is good. Our good misses the mark every time.

          • I’m not a sinner anymore but a righteous. If I was a sinner, then I wouldn’t be a saint. God justified me by faith alone. The Bibles clearly says that we are “JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1 – ASV). Jesus with His sacrifice made my righteous, as it is written: “So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so THROUGH ONE ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall THE MANY BE MADE RIGHTEOUS” (Romans 5:18-19 – ASV). That is what the prophet Isaiah was referring to, when He said that “by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant JUSTIFY MANY; and he shall bear their iniquities” (Isaiah 53:11). Jesus Christ made us righteous with his righteousness. In fact, the apostle Paul said that “Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21 – ASV). Think about it Dan, if I wasn’t a righteous, God wouldn’t have listened my prayers, and that because “Jehovah is far FROM THE WICKED; But HE HEARETH THE PRAYER OF THE RIGHTEOUS” (Proverbs 15:29 – ASV). The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working (see James 5:16), and that’s because God hears the cry of the righteous (Psalm 34:15). God’s children practice righteousness, so they are righteous people (1 John 3:7). All the saved people are righteous and they will go into life eternal (Matthew 25:46).

            I hope I’ve been clear enough now to explaining to you the difference between a righteous and a sinner.

          • Dan

            @ GC I believe we both are agreeing with each other.

            Just saying it differently.

            Blessings

        • You never answered my question, have YOU committed sin since you got saved? Please just give a simple yes or no answer please..

          • Kimmie

            Gianluca~ Your response was very well said!

          • Kimmie

            Geoffrey~ Gianluca DID answer your question.

          • Geoffrey I have already given you my answer and I explained why a Christian still can fall into sin after being saved and why falling into sin is different from walking in the flesh and so living in sin.

  • Kimmie

    VERY well said, Gianluca!!

    We can commit (spiritual) adultery/fornication in our betrothal to the Lord. He is coming for a bride who is watching and waiting for Him and is without “spot or wrinkle”…if we are not, He will NOT receive us. Just as Jesus said that we could not divorce here on earth except for fornication (Matt.5), it is the same spiritually, since our relationship with Him is a picture of marriage. We cannot be a harlot with the world, even though we once promised to live for Him, and expect that we can enter in.

    It is a HUGE deception (that satan loves) and (sadly) one that many will find out soon enough (unless there is full repentance and a return to our First Love).

    You are free to believe OSAS if you want, and that *no matter what* (even for fornication) you can still enter heaven.

    If we, who do not believe OSAS are wrong, we have nothing to lose. However, IF YOU ARE WRONG (and your name has been blotted out), you have EVERYTHING to lose.

    • AndrewA

      Ok, as Geoffrey Grider said to Gianluca have you committed sin since being saved?

      If you have then by what you are saying you would have a spot or wrinkle and not be pure. No good work that you do corrects the sin you have committed. It is by Grace you are saved for again.

      1 John ch 4 verse 15
      15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

      It is not by any good work that your sins went away It is not by any Good work that Keeps your Sins from coming back. It is only by Confessing Jesus is the Son of God and believing on his name.

      Once God dwelleth in you all God sees is that. He considers you pure and a co inheritor with Jesus. If no Good works can forgive your sins and save you. Then no, good works you do can keep saved. Only God saved you and only God can keep you.

      • Kimmie

        “It is not by any Good work that Keeps your Sins from coming back. It is only by Confessing Jesus is the Son of God and believing on his name.”

        ~~~~~~~~~~~

        You are deceived to believe that you do not have to take responsibility for what you allow in your life.

        You keep going back to the same phrases and same verses but need to read the whole New Testament and Bible.

        If you study out all the places that “If”, “keep”, continue”, and “take heed” are written, you will see that YOU must do SOMETHING…in addition, look up “perfect” and “perfect heart” referred to in the Bible. You will see that YOU, not God, is in control of your behavior.

        If it was not possible to have a “perfect heart”, God would not have said it was.

        A perfect heart is a heart that daily tries to please God and wants to obey the all of His commandments.

        You guys keep insisting for people here to admit that they have sinned since they’ve been born again. Of course people make mistakes, but if we *really* LOVE GOD and are truly wanting to serve and follow HIM, we will not live in habitual and continual iniquity. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Go and sin NO MORE.” If it were not possible according to His standards, He would not have said it.

        There are NO excuses for a sinful lifestyle except that one loves the world more than God.

        If we love Him, we will follow His ways. He will not make us. We MUST do our part.
        If you think that you have no more personal responsibility to keep your heart pure, you have deceived yourselves severely.
        Read the word. It is full of things that we must DO. (James 1:22)

        “Set no evil thing before my eyes.” (Ps. 101:3)
        “I will behave myself in a perfect way…I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.” (Ps. 101:2)

        If we LOVE him we will KEEP His commandments. LOVING GOD is the KEY…not just knowing ABOUT Him. We can know all kinds of things about what God says, but having a “religion” does NOT make you a Christian. You can deceive yourself. Do you LOVE God? Then DO what HE says. That is the test.

        If you will not turn from your sins, you will die in your sins.
        Jesus’s death on the cross would have been in vain if people could JUST accept Him and believe that God raised Him from the dead…Satan even knows this, believes, and trembles. YOU MUST READ THE ENTIRE council of God, not just pick and choose.

        You guys keep insisting that OSAS is not a license to sin, but it sure is convenient when you do, isn’t it? Not long ago, Geoff admitted to (secretly) willful, habitual, and continual fornication during his whole professing Christian life. Believing that once you are saved, you are always saved is a comforting thought while one is sinning sins over and over that God expressly forbids Christians to do. One would need to keep repeating the phrase OSAS rather than “no fornicators, no adulterers…will enter the kingdom of heaven.” (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

        There is a day that is coming soon and all will find out if Jesus meant what HE said. I hope you will re-examine your life and see if you are truly “in the faith”. If you just take anyone else’s word for it, and don’t read it for YOURSELF, you will be without excuse when you stand before a HOLY GOD.

        • Kimmie

          “*I* made a covenant with my eyes; why then should I think upon a maiden?” (Job 31:1)

          “*I will* set no wicked thing before my eyes…” (Ps. 101:3)

          *I* must do something about MY behavior.

        • Inasmuch As

          kimmie wrote:

          If it was not possible to have a “perfect heart”, God would not have said it was.

          A perfect heart is a heart that daily tries to please God and wants to obey the all of His commandments

          Excellent post, Kimmie!

          Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
          16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
          17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
          18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

  • Don

    I wonder why then in Rev. 1:20 Jesus is talking about the seven churches. He states repeatedly to the churches from whence thou art fallen and repent. Verse 5 I will come quickly and remove thy candlestick out of his place except thou repent. This goes on thought the first three chapters to churches. Not sinners, churches. What does remove thy candlestick mean then ? Can only refer to salvation. However you can believe however you wish, God gives us free will.

  • Dan

    The( Only )reason you are pure is because of the seed that resides in you.

    This seed is pure and without spot or wrinkle despite all of your good works

    which can be likened as filthy rags in comparison.

    Humble yourself before GOD and be thankful all he requires is your trust.

    Blessings

  • eddie santana

    I believe the parable of the sower explains backsliding better than 1 John 2:19. That verse insinuates that people join the church for selfish reasons but their heart isn’t right. But the parable of the sower is the all-inclusive process how people react to the invitation of salvation.

  • eddie santana

    1 John 2:19 would mean that people that fall away were never really saved, and I don’t believe that.

    • AndrewA

      Look if you don’t want to listen to what John speaking under influence of the Holy Spirit and what was said on the mater. It is not me you are saying you don’t believe to.

      John could not of said it more simply it was a literal declaration.

      First however lets Address the Parable of the Sower. Be reading Jesus explanation.

      The Parable of the Sower
      Matthew Chapter 13 : 19-23

      19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

      20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

      21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

      22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

      23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

      The parable is not about a back sliding Christian but how people receive the word. Only he that received seed into the good ground is the only one who heard the word understood word and who is born again because they truly accepted the word. Everyone else rejected the Word and never accepted Jesus. This Parable is on accepting the Message of God in you heart not on a back sliding Christian.

      What John was talking about in 1 John ch 2 verse 19 is explained in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares by Jesus.

  • eddie santana

    Spot on, Sally!

  • eddie santana

    Not a good explanation.

    • AndrewA

      Going to have to be more specific on what was not a good explanation and why.

  • Suez

    Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    Col 1:23 IF YE (continue in the faith) {grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel}, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
    Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
    Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
    Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

  • eddie santana

    “Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”

    Ok OSAS-ers…saved from what???? Losing our rewards? lol

    • Matthew 24 is talking about enduring to the end of the Tribulation, for that is the context of the entire chapter. It is not talking about enduring to the end of your life. Matthew 24 will take place AFTER the Rapture of the Church. We won’t even be here, read this: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=32798

  • Suez

    Oh, my word.

    • Inasmuch As

      Suez wrote: >>>Oh, my word.

      Go on. Say it! We are waiting!

      LOL.

      • Suez

        Beings I’ve been chopped and spit out, so many time’s for saying something that wasn’t true, due to peoples assumptions, I thought I’d let the rest of you chime in on that one…LOL LOL 🙂

  • TeresaB

    Nothing ever changes, I been on here off and on for 6 yrs, mostly just posting thing people may not know. I had to quit reading comments because EVERYONE is still the only expert on Scripture. Christians arguing about what the Lord means, that will always amaze me, infighting amongst Gods Servants.

    oh remove you name and email so it doesn’t show cuz I guess that cant be fixed?

    • Inasmuch As

      TeresaB wrote:

      I had to quit reading comments because EVERYONE is still the only expert on Scripture. Christians arguing about what the Lord means, that will always amaze me, infighting amongst Gods Servants.

      Within most churches are people which include saints and aints. Among the aints are FALSE BRETHREN, HYPOCRITES and assorted DECEIVERS, FALSE TEACHERS and FALSE PROPHETS. All are NOT the body of Christ nor His servants and it is gross deception to think otherwise. The Satanic NWO uses propaganda like the Hegelian Dialectic to preach a host of deceptions including Consensus, Appeasement, Ecumenism, Pluralism, Ceasefire, Disarmament, Centrism, Flatteries, Tolerance, Multiculturalism, Diversity, Compromise, Unity, Cooperation, Bridge Building.

      Too many have checked their Fruit Checker at the church door. As one who has been persecuted and arrested for my faith, I don’t consider most churchgoers “the church” but instead suggest you trust no man. Jesus said they were trying to kill him. They are trying to kill YOU, too. Shields up! Watch your back! Democracy is Mob Rule. The Body of Christ is not a majority. The majority doesn’t rule. God does. The majority are wicked and going to the Lake of Fire.

      Pr 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
      17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
      18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
      19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

      2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

      Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

      Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

      2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
      2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
      3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
      4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
      5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
      6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
      7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

      2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
      2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

      • Inasmuch As

        Correction: The Body of Christ is not a democracy.

      • Suez

        Beautifully stated brother in Christ. I’m saving that to my files. Beautiful. If people can’t see from that, I fear they won’t at all. I’m thankful your my brother in Christ! 🙂

        • Inasmuch As

          Thanks Suez. Praise God! Actually its sister, not brother. My husband laughed and said I write like a man by which he means I write with authority. Mt 7:29; Lu 4:36; 9:1; 10:17-20. Even if the “unbelieving” don’t believe me, those who are true discern each other by the Holy Spirit. Re 21:8.

  • AndrewA

    People against eternal Salvation need to understand you are combining two groups of people into one. This is the source of confusion here.

    Their are back sliding Christians people who make mistakes and get confused. God will nudge and help them correct they never lost their salvation but may have lost rewards God would of otherwise given them.

    Then there are people of 1 John ch 2 verse 19. People who say they are christian but never actually accepted Jesus. They were never part of the Church and when they publicly reject God and leave it is to show that they were never part of the Church. If they were part of the church they would of never left.

    Kimmi as for your comment on Geoffry. If you say a christian who admits to their sin that they are Forgiven and Mr. Grider has done exactly that their was no reason to bring it up. That was nothing but a pure attack to discredit and you should apologize.

    Here attack me for my sins instead I may of already looked to God for Forgiveness but that doesn’t seem to mater for your point so I will give a list:

    I have Lied to people

    I have cheated

    I have hated people and thus committed murder

    I have looked at women with Lust and thus committed Adultery

    I have disrespected my Parents on several occasions

    I have even in foolishness entertained an idol when I should of spoke out against it to all the people that were their. Sadly, I kept silent
    I let them continue in it with out protest. That makes me as guilty for the sins of the people their who committed that sin. Why, because while they may not of known better I did and should of said something.

    That is mostly a general list. I have committed sin and failed to live up to what God wishes which is for us to “Sin no more.” However we have this.

    If we say we are without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us but if we confess are sins God who is merciful and Just will Forgive are sins and Cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

    My good works did not forgive my sin or cleanse me, Only God can forgive and cleanse me of sins. If you admit God is who forgives sin then realize it is God who has saved you and no action you do once you are saved changes who is in control of your life only God is in control. You gave it to him when you called on the name of Jesus wishing to be forgiven.

    • Inasmuch As

      AndrewA wrote:

      I will give a list:
      I have Lied to people…

      1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

      Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
      12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
      13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
      14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
      15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

      • AndrewA

        And now I am speaking truth.

        John ch 3 13-21

        13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

        14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must

        15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

        16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

        17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

        18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

        19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

        20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

        21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

        I believe God came into the world and died for are sins. His name was Jesus only begotten Son of God. All you have to do to be saved is believe. If you believe you will be saved no exceptions. I believe this because that is what Jesus said. I know it to be true. How about you?

        • Inasmuch As

          AndrewA wrote:

          All you have to do to be saved is believe. If you believe you will be saved no exceptions.

          Devils believe and tremble. The modern Church doesn’t have sense enough to tremble.

          Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
          19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
          20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

          2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

          “His” depart from iniquity. Those who are not “His” don’t. Have you departed from iniquity?

          God is coming for a holy people. If you’re not holy, he’s not coming for you!

          • Sally J Schlage

            1 John ch 4 verse 1-3

            1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

            2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

            3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

            I have confessed Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God again how about you?

          • AndrewA

            1 John ch 4 verse 1-3

            1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

            2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

            3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

            I have confessed Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God again how about you?

          • AndrewA

            I apologize Sally I didn’t catch you name in their fast enough. That we me that posted.

          • AndrewA

            I wanted to Add the following.

            Not once in your comments to this article have you made a declaration of faith I would very much wish that you would acknowledge Jesus as the only Begotten son of God. That through his death on the Cross we are saved.

            Also I would not mind you saying how you see one being saved and how is it one is made Holy. If it is not as John, Paul, or even Jesus said which was

            John 3:18
            18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

            Is the verse wrong did Jesus tell Nicodemus a false doctrine that believing is not enough to not be condemned? That we cant Just believe on his name? Only people condemned in this verse are those who don’t believe on him.

            Jesus did not mention works as a condition of getting or keeping salvation anywhere in chapter 3 of John only that if you believe on his name you will be saved.

            I am sorry but It just seems like you are trying to condemn the world when Jesus came to in fact save the world.

            John ch 3 verse 17
            17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

  • TeresaB

    Most of this argument is debatable as its an opinion, shouldn’t this be what we are caring about?

    The essentials would include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, Christ’s physical resurrection, salvation by grace through faith, etc. The debatable issues would include pre-trib rapture vs post-trib rapture, worshipping on Saturday or Sunday, etc.

  • Tracy

    Yes,these are just opinions; but, when all is said and done, if we’ve truly been born again (our second birth), and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in each of us, we do for sure know it. It’s an assurance that only God can place in our hearts, souls and minds. The Holy Spirit is there as our Helper in our daily walk while living in this cruel, evil world.
    Praise God!

  • Dave

    I totally disagree with the statement “once saved always saved.” Let us look at scripture.
    Mark 14:10 ¶ And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them.
    Judas was one of the twelve, but yet Jesus said, (Mark 14:21) The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. As we know Judas went and hanged himself.

    1 Samuel 11:6 And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.
    1 Samuel 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
    Hmmm, yeah I don’t believe Saul made it to heaven, although he was
    anointed and prophesied, God departed from Saul.

    And the last reference.

    Did God take Jehoiakim’s name out of the Book of Life?

    Looking in Matthew 1:11 Josias (Josiah) begat Jechonias, but in 1 Chron. 3:15 Josiah begat Jehoiakim, and the sons of Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, Zedekiah.

    Matthew 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

    1 Chronicles 3:15 And the sons of Josiah were, the firstborn Johanan, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum. (16) And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah ( Jechonias) his son, Zedekiah his son.

    My closing thoughts:

    You are giving people a license to sin by teaching this “once saved.” I know God forbid, but people will just say well the teacher,preacher said I was always saved, I will drink and be merry.
    Of the three listed above I really don’t think they are in heaven.

    • People in the Old Testament were saved by faith + works, we are not. We are saved, in the age of Grace, by grace through faith plus nothing (Ephesians 2:8,9 KJV). David could have lost his salvation, in Psalm 51 he pleaded with God not to take His Holy Spirit from him.

      In all your Scripture references, you fail to quote Paul ONE time, and he is the one we are commanded to follow. Do you not know that born again believers are SEALED IN at salvation so wh can never lose it??

      “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)

    • Suzy

      AHA!!! That’s it… yes that’s it!!!

      Short and simple. OSAS simply means: Im saved so even if I sin I know that God loves me, He will always forgive me… bla bla bla.” That is similar to lukewarmness and the LORD is ABSOLUTELY NOT in support of lukewarmness.

      But they forget this, God Himself said to Moses “.. whosoever sins against Me, I will blot him out of My book…” Exodus 32:33. Let me preceise this, being in the age of Grace does not mean we exclude all the OT’s doctrines – for our LORD came to accomplish the law, not to abolish it.

      Now we all know that the Book of Life (God’s Book) contains the names of those that are saved. When you sin and your name is blotted out of that book, where is then your eternal salvation if you don’t repent, Geoffrey, if you don’t go back to the Cross?

      Thanks lot Dave, great comment!
      God bless you.

  • Jimmy

    Can you imagine one day walking the streets of Glory, and you happen to look up and see “HE or “SHE” coming down the street. You cross to the other side, because you don’t want to hear for the umpteenth time, what they did to get there!!! Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23, Romans 1:16, Romans 5:8,Romans 5:20, Romans 10:9-13, Ephesians 1:12-13 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

  • AndrewA

    Inasmuch As, I am still waiting to hear you say what is the correct road of salvation and keeping yourself Holy. If what I cited is wrong if what Geoffry Grider is wrong then what is it?

    You are very quick to talk against eternal salvation. But I really want to hear from you what your answer on what the correct way is supposed to be.

    If you want to cite James as Faith and Works is the only way then what Works and what Faith are you saying is needed?

  • Eph2:
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 NOT of works, lest any man should boast.

    – there is one absolutely required condition for salvation, that is faith
    – faith is not works
    – no works can save or keep us saved
    – the very same condition required for salvation is also the one absolutely required condition to keep us saved

    https://truelyfanatic.wordpress.com/tag/salvation/

  • Jimmy

    I’m like many have come to these comments over the last week or so, and as a Believer it has bothered me to see such a division within the Body of Christ. This morning as I lay in that half sleep and half awake state, a song was being sung to me in my mind…Grace, grace, God’s Grace..Grace that is greater than all my sin…Praise the Lord

    • Dan

      Jimmy I too woke up this morning feeling inspired to tell everyone this message.

      There is no reason any of us should believe GOD loves us less than we love our own children.

      GOD loves us more than we can even begin to love our own.

      Can someone tell me why they feel this is not true?

      • Jimmy

        Dan, The number Two in scripture, I believe symbolizes an adequate witness? It’s Grace, and I believe in one of Paul’s writings where he states where Sin abounds Grace much more abounds, the word for abounds is super abundant grace? Keep Looking Up, Jimmy

  • Inasmuch As

    Jimmy wrote:

    I’m like many have come to these comments over the last week or so, and as a Believer it has bothered me to see such a division within the Body of Christ.

    Dan wrote:

    GOD loves us more than we can even begin to love our own.

    Can someone tell me why they feel this is not true?

    It depends upon what the meaning of “us” is. Too many think everyone who says he is a Christian is one. There are assorted people in the church which include false teachers, false prophets, deceivers, heretics and the like and God does not love them. HE HATES THEM!

    The doctrine of God’s love being unconditional is FALSE. This is an excellent article on the subject:

    God HATES the wicked yet loves all humanity…
    http://lightnercrew.com/2010/06/22/god-hates-the-wicked-do-not-be-deceived/

    • Dan

      Inasmuch , Why do you worry about the what ifs or but those ?

      You can’t be satisfied that someone loves God before worrying if their doing what their suppose to do to be acceptable in your eyes .

      And better yet you jump to me possibly including the whole planet in GOD’s forgiveness .

      Let God worry about it. Because we’re all pathetic when it comes to pleasing GOD save ONE exception ! And that is We trust him to include us .

      No one ever talks about the garden and fairness of it. let alone what actually happened. We lost the ability to hear and talk with GOD and this made it hard to have a serious relationship with GOD.

      So, why did GOD create us? Why are we separate from the angels? All of which have the wonderful privilege of knowing GOD.

      Why did GOD step into a body and become like us?

      You see Inasmuch my guess is your the type of Christian that just goes to church sings hymns and reads her bible. Instead of really knowing GOD.

      In knowing GOD inasmuch your will realize that he must love us more than we could ever realize. But what of the question “does he love all of us?

      The bad the good the mentally ill the young the old and senile . You see that’s not an easy question to answer. What does the holy spirit tell you?

      Aah you see ; you can’t go to your bible for that can you? What have you gotten from the spirit that GOD gave you that’s the question ? Do you wake up each day yearning for that relationship or do you read about the relationship the apostles had with the holy spirit ?

      You see inasmuch if you were doing this you would find you have little time to worry about everyone else.

      What I would suggest is you spend what ever time you have left realizing what this is all about because it seems your still looking down instead of up!

      Blessings

  • Jimmy

    The Apostle Paul mentions Dispensations, I believe four times? Before 1 Corinthians 15:1-4….Gentiles were outside all the promises made to the Fathers, without hope. This is the Dispensation of Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. One day the Lord will do the sorting.

  • Suzy

    Hi Geoffrey,

    I have been reading your web site since I discovered it but without making any comments. But this topic – I just cannot let it go without saying anything because… THIS IS SO WRONG!!!

    Some Biblical points to support my view:

    1. Damas left Paul for the world. And during that time he was disqualified from God’s household (that’s a perfect example of a backslider). and if he remained in that state without being restored to the Lord, He would have gone to hell.

    2. Hebrews confirms Ezekiel 3:20 as they tell us that woe to those who know the truth and yet they sin and worst, die in them. Now if one is saved and dies in sin, obviously he/she will go to hell – where is the eternal security in that? – NONE!

    3. Balaam knew the way of the LORD but because he was obstinated to follow his carnal desires, the Angel of God would have killed him, if not for his ass.

    4. The letter to the church of Sades in Revelation 3:2-3(as well as to the other 6 churches) totally confirms that THERE IS NO ETERNAL SECURITY IN SALVATION until you ENDURE TILL THE END LIVING PERFECTLY BEFORE THE LORD!

    5. Also, those that Paul was talking about in Galatians 4:9-11 and I Corinthians 5:1-13 were of those that beleived. So upon all the atrocities they were committing, were they still saved? NO! Why? Because NO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD – i cORINTHIANS 6:9-10 rEVELATION 21:7-8

    There are many passages against eternal security salvation stuffs. Only the simple fact that BACKSLIDING is a sin (2 Timmothy 1:15), makes the topic a SERIOUS FALSE DOCTRINE.

    Oh and I think this is one of the best examples that can define eternal security whatever as a lie – Judas Iscariot was first saved but because of stealing, coveteousness, etc. even though he was with The Master Himself ended up in Hell!!!

    N.B: 1 John 3:8-9 clearly tells us HE THAT COMMITTED SIN IS OF THE DEVIL… WHOSEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN!

    MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN!!! So please if you think because you are a Chrisitan and then you can live anyhow you want because you think you experienced salvation and then that’s eternally secured, you’ll be shocked when the LORD will tell you… “AWAY FROM ME YOU WORKER OF INIQUITY…” on the last day.

    ETERNAL SECURITY = Salvation + Holiness (Continually till the end – without which no man shall see the LORD).

    • First of all, Judas was never saved not even close. The Bible says that his fall was prophesied by David in the Old Testament. Judas was rotten from Day 1: “Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.” Acts 1:16 (KJV). Secondly, no one in the gospels was “saved” before Jesus went to the cross and rose again on the 3rd day. Even the thief on the cross didn’t go to Heaven when he died, he went to Paradise.

      For us in the age of grace, we follow the writings of the apostle Paul, as the Bible commands us to do in 3 different places. “Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.” 1 Corinthians 4:16 (KJV). Paul’s autographed writings start with Romans and end with Philemon, and what is contained there is our DOCTRINE. Paul says multiple times that at salvation we are “sealed until the day of redemption”. Sealed means sealed, and the Holy Spirit does so we cannot be taken out by any means. Paul repeats this security in Romans 8: “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

      The book of Hebrews is written to lost Jews, and it is a plea to them to get saved. Are you a lost Jew? It will have it’s main importance during the Tribulation to the Jews alive at that time after the Rapture.

      When Paul talks about “inheriting the kingdom” he is talking about rewards at the Judgement Seat, 2 Corinthians 5, he is not talking about salvation.

      So let me ask you this…the last time you sinned, did that sin unsave you?

      • Suzy

        Of course if I sin even being saved or sanctified it unsaves me until I GO BACK TO THE CROSS.

        Eg. Solomon first started with the LORD, but at the end of his story in the Bible, we are told that his ways were no more perfect before the LORD. And what does the LORD says about such: the answer is in Revelation 3:2-3 “.. for I have not found thy works perfect before me… repent… or else I will come upon you as a thief…”

        Geoffrey, I believe Biblically, holiness means WITHOUT SIN. Whether Hebrews was written for whosoever, it is still part of the Holy Scriptures and we CANNOT not practice it as Born Again Christians. Hebrews 12:14 “follow peace with all men and holiness without which no one shall see the LORD” sums up a Born Again’s life. And even Paul had spoken about it in 1 Thessalonians 4:7 and 5:23 (NO UNCLEANNESS + PRESERVED BLAMELESSNESS OF BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT. Now we all know what uncleanliness is as Born Again Christians. That means an inch of the most little sin one can ever think of is a spot on one’s soul, and only that is enough to put a barrier before you and the Master.

        Alright, please tell me then, since you believe in eternal security:
        1. what is the meaning of backsliding? and why does it exist?
        2. Do you know that some pleople backslide without even knowing because of one reason or the other? (eg. personal interpretation of the Word, not abiding wholelly to the Word, etc…)
        3. You said in the age of Grace we follow ONLY Apostle Paul’s doctrine… REALLY?… ONLY Apostle Paul’s?!

        • So you think that every time you sin you are unsaved? Well, bad news for you then. Hebrews 6 says that it is “impossible” to be renewed again after falling away. Impossible. Now what do you do?

          • Suzy

            Excuse me Geoffrey, but I don’t think you have answered my questions above.

            Please would you mind answering them?

          • Suzy

            Oh, and YES!!! evrerytime I (and all Born Again Christians) sin, I am (we are) unsaved. Except I go back to the Cross and make things right with God.

            The Holy Spirit (whose Purity we can’t even describe) is the One that testifies that we are true Children of God (Biblical). He NEVER dwells where there is an inch of sin. Once there’s a stain of sin in your heart (not temptation) He withdraws Himself until you repent. Now tell me in addition to my previous questions: Without the Holy Spirit in us, who testifies before God or the Master that we are His?

          • Larry / vietnamvet1971

            @ Suzy, now do not take this the wrong way I am just saying simmer down, take it easy, take a breath, you have made your point so now you want to make other peoples point yours so you can straighten them out, IF we knew it ALL then what is left. Can’t we say it different but IF we Believe and have FAITH we will ALL make it to Heaven because Believing & having FAITH in the Finished WORK of Yashua / Jesus is what matters nothing else we can do will save us since our Works are not going to save us. Just Focus on JESUS and every thing else will work out because of HIM.

        • Dan

          Geoff I think your glitch is almost gone.

          Suzy, You going back to the Cross for what you are is like You

          complaining to Christ for leaving you out from what he did because

          of who your from . Trust me Jesus is

          probably just rolling his eyes and shaking his head at you.

          • Suzy

            Dan,

            Please, let’s not take God’s love and mercy for granted. The fact that we are at the age of grace doesnot exclude the fact that God’s everlasting and unfailing faithfullness is ONLY for those who do same for Him. Eg: When you become lukewarm, the LORD will spit you of out His mouth (Revelation 3:16).

            Look into your Bible and read Ezekiel 3:20. God makes us to understand that even the Just (Holy/Sanctified)that goes back to sin without repenting loses his position on God’s side… in other words, salvation.

            Dan, please “search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me…”. PLease do not err!!!

            And I love it when my LORD rolls His eyes and shakes His Head at me. It probably means chastizing will come next – that simply means He loves me and therefore corrects me: and by His Grace I will implement the correction. But I belive He is shaking His Sacred Head positively at me because I boldly stand for “OSAS IS UNBIBLICAL AND THEREFORE SO WRONG!!!”

          • Dan

            Suzy

            the fact that God’s everlasting and unfailing faithfullness is ONLY for those who do same for Him. Eg: When you become lukewarm, the LORD will spit you of out His mouth (Revelation 3:16).

            So, what is luke warm to you suzy and better yet how could it justly apply to my luke warm? Surely my trials or greater than yours. Oh but yes maybe its the other way around. Maybe your trails are greater than mine..

            Its just silly to apply scripture like that.
            I mean if your kid came home from school and told you his teacher didn’t want his behavior to be lukewarm what would you do? Better yet what would your confidence in this teacher be?

            What I need is to be 100% trusting that GOD loves me enough to understand my weaknesses and I rely on him to guide me without having to worry about me deserving it. Because he loves me even when I’m bad and disciplines me if he needs to. I rely on him to make sure I’m doing it right despite my attempts to get it right.

            please “search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me…”. PLease do not err!!!
            Now here I really can see Jesus rolling his eyes at you. Understand the scripture Suzy but God doesn’t require us to speak like good ole King James demanded. Because you sound ridiculous . Try summarizing in your own words Suzy what the scriptures saying

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  • eddie santana

    Well, ya’ll can continue the debate if you want, but the bottom line is that it’s the same stubbornness that keeps us believing what we believe is what keeps us believing in the plan of salvation. Just thank God we’re on the right team, even though we may disagree on the rules of the game. : )

  • eddie santana

    It seems like a hard concept to comprehend as well as a contradiction that
    God loves us unconditionally, yet will separate us from Himself but it’s not really Him, it’s sin that separates people from God; saved, or unsaved.

  • Jim Eckland

    So many comments on this issue….Most if not all support of OSAS rests on the letters of Paul. I have yet to see any mention of Peter when he says that Paul’s teachings are difficult to understand and that many have twisted them. See the end of 2 Peter:
    15 “and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.””
    I wonder if we are misunderstanding Paul’s true intentions here?? What has been a possible result?? Has anyone noticed the absence of The Commandments of GOD displayed on the property of almost every Christian Church in America? Is it possible “OSAS Teachings” have led us down the path where GOD’s Moral Law is no longer needed? Just some thoughts…I’ve learned much from following this thread… Thank You all.
    Jim E.

    • Paul says we are “sealed until the day of redemption”, that’s not difficult to understand but for some of us, evidentially, it’s hard to believe. Paul says we are sealed till we go home to Jesus, and that’s good enough for me. Case closed.

  • eddie Santana

    Jim, you make a good point, that I would agree that some of Paul’s teachings are hard to grasp, but no harder than some of the words Jesus himself spoke (“the rest of scripture”). Keep in mind that scripture must be illuminated by the Holy Spirit in order to really make sense. I think the “twisting of the scriptures” spoken about by Peter was done by people looking to justify themselves, as opposed to here where someone is genuinely trying to edify the body. Good intentions aside, when it’s all said and done, the Holy Spirit will gives us discernment to recognize bad theology, and those that peddle it will eventually have to give an account. So, who’s really right? May God shed light on this in each heart.

    • Larry / vietnamvet1971

      You speak a Good Word & I agree.

      Amen.

    • Suzy

      Permit me to share some truth here:

      1. No body has an excuse to sin as long as you know the truth (John 15:22). This does not only concern unbelievers but even the Children of God.

      2. Repentance is not only for those that are not Born Again, but also for those thay already in Christ. The letters to the 7 churches in Revelation mostly talks about self examination (continually)and repentance (even though their torches stood before God)to make sure their works were PERFECT before God.

      These should ring an alarm in anyone’s head who believes in OSAS!!!

  • Tracy

    @eddie Santana, I agree too.

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  • Larry / vietnamvet1971

    There seems to be a lot of debating back & forth of who is RIGHT & who is WRONG, Let us Let GOD be GOD and every one else a Liar.

    Just wanted to share this I will always lean or stand on the Word of GOD in simple Child like FAITH since John calls / refers to us as “Little Children” and we should not argue & quarrel but be Mature “Little Children” and not get to Big for our Britches (Pants for those not knowing the term Britches).

    Assurance of Salvation: The Good News is FAITH in our LORD, Savior Jesus Christ is a Guarantee of our Eternal Salvation. Remember the Disciples when Jesus told the Rich young man (Testing) him about giving up his Riches and he failed the test and the Disciples Ask : “Who then can be saved?”
    Jesus looked at them and said, “With MAN this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.” I Believe it is POSSIBLE.

    Salvation is a work of God. More than that, salvation is solely a work of God. Assurance of salvation is only possible if salvation is a work of God alone. If salvation depended upon man or man’s ability, assurance of salvation would require answering of two questions:

    1. What kind of works are necessary to meet God’s approval for righteousness?
    2. How many of these works are necessary?

    No one can answer the above questions. We have no information that will answer them. Therefore, assurance of salvation is impossible if salvation depends in any part on a person’s works or good deeds. However, if salvation depends on the work of God, one can have assurance of salvation.

    Let us read what Paul tells us:

    “What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? ‘ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.’ Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work , but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is credited as righteousness” (Romans 4.1-5).

    To the Galatians, Paul wrote,

    “Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through FAITH in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by FAITH in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified ” (Galatians 2.16).

    “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly” (Galatians 2.21).

    Let the “Work” of JESUS our LORD & Savior be enough.

    • Sam Fox

      Larry, you asked,
      “1. What kind of works are necessary to meet God’s approval for righteousness?
      2. How many of these works are necessary?”

      John 6:29, to Q 1:
      Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you: that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].

      Q 2: You only have to do this work once. And it is absolutely essential for salvation. One needs to be born again once. That will satisfy Father.

      Each of us is saved forevermore, but that is conditional on our enduring to the end. There are other verses that say the same thing. Though I believe it rare, a believer CAN choose to walk out of Father’s hand.

      Hebrews 6–
      4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

      5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,

      6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

      “…tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit…” is a lot more than just being convicted & turning away. The key here is “turn away from their allegiance” to Messiah. That means they take another spirit to be their god.

      Also the above quote is more than backsliding. A backslider can return in repentance & find forgiveness. But if that one stays backslidden long enough, there is a likely danger of falling into apostasy. I don’t think falling into apostasy is redeemable. One can’t go there by ‘accident’, choice is involved.

      SamFox

  • eddie santana

    Sorry boss. With all due respect to whatever pastor, not everyone that backslides was never truly a Christian. It can be argued that fake Christians don’t “taste the heavenly gift,” they just mingle with the beneficiaries.

  • eddie santana

    From experience, I know the struggles of “obeying.” That doesn’t mean everyone that struggle is a fake Christian. But, at the same time, those that struggle theoretically can give in to the dark side, give up and in the process reject the Lord’s gift.

    • I have never, in 25 years of being saved, ever ONCE met a Christian – any Christian – who didn’t struggle with something.

  • eddie santana

    That’s true, but then you have these fantastic conversion stories of people that never have another urge to go back to their “past life” or sins, and that just doesn’t happen to all converts. It says we must die daily, and by golly that’s what really goes on.

  • Wendy

    Hey Eddie!
    I think that those people who “never struggle with past sins” haven’t overcome lying!!
    😀

    • Inasmuch As

      Wendy said: “I think that those people who “never struggle with past sins” haven’t overcome lying!!”

      While I was a child I thought as a child. Then I grew up. Yes, you can overcome sin. You don’t have to be dragged about by your lusts.

      The Holy Spirit, if you choose to receive Him, perfects the sinner. If you are unable to overcome sin, go to a Pentecostal or Charismatic Church and ask for deliverance. You have picked up a demon or two. Experience, tribulation and extreme pain are excellent teachers.

      1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
      9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
      10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
      11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

      Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
      12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
      13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
      14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
      15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

    • Lol, well said. I have known many a preacher over the last 25 years that didn’t drink, smoke, swear or fornicate. But there are more than 4 sins on God’s list, and they had pride, envy, malice and gossip by the bucketload!

      • Tracy

        Geoffrey, add to that list gluttony. Many will stand and preach about smoking and drinking, but never utter a word about over-eating. No one, NOT one person, is good enough, by our on merits to be saved. We simply cannot do it on our on. That’s why we are saved by grace through faith, because of what Jesus did for each one of us on the Cross at Calvary. Can’t we just accept it and believe it, and with the help of the Holy Spirit keep the gift so freely given.
        Allow Jesus Christ into your heart, mind and soul.
        Praise Him!

        • Yes, and you raise an excellent point. I know tons of fire and brimstone Baptist preachers with huge guts who can’t stop stuffing their faces. According to the Bible, that is just as much a sin as drunkenness, fornication or anything else. But in typical fashion they would never address that issue. Everyone sins, we just don’t all sin the same. And the sin of pride makes us feel superior to those who have different sins than we do.

  • Wendy

    Hey Geoffrey!
    I notice above that you’ve made the emoticons/emojis/”smiley faces” bigger so we can now see them. Thank you!
    And thank you as well, and Kudos to you, for fixing that harassing “others’ email” problem!

    It is once again a complete joy to be involved with your website!!

  • eddie santana

    Oh Wendy, you crack me up. I struggle with a lot of things, but I’m praying God never gives up on me, as long as I don’t give up on Him.

    • God doesn’t give up on you no matter how many times you give up on Him. “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.” 2 Timothy 2:13 (KJV)

      • Derrick

        I love that with every door someone chooses other than the OSAS door, there’s a Word that provides the answer. He truly thought of everything. \o/

  • Mary Weber

    Jesus is Our Advocate

    1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    12I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

    Jesus knew we would struggle with sin but he wanted us to not PRACTICE sin…

    • Sam Fox

      Mary, your last sentence, GOLDEN!! 😀

      If we lost our salvation over every struggle…Lord! Perish the thought! 🙂

      SamFox

  • Stu

    The Bible does not teach eternal security without qualification. While the promises of Jn 10:28-29 are indeed true, eternal life, not perishing and not being snatched out of the Father’s hand are predicated on v.27. The assurances of vss.27-28 are made to those who are His sheep and specifically, only to those sheep who “hear” and “follow” in v.27. Those sheep who do not hear and follow and instead choose to habitually disobey the Lord are not the recipients of his promises in vss. 28-29. Therefore no eternal security.

    Jesus likewise taught the same principle in the parable of the prodigal son which you gave as an example. However, I believe Jesus taught that becoming a prodigal and living a lifestyle of sin does not just cause one to lose fellowship as you assert but potentially causes spiritual death and eternal separation from God for the believer. This can be demonstrated by a careful reading of the passage. Notice that Jesus repeats one phrase in this parable and we know that when Jesus repeats something to his listeners, he is putting great emphasis on something so we’d better pay attention. In verses 24 & 32 the father describes his son as being dead but alive again; was lost but is found. The question is how can someone be made ALIVE AGAIN? We are born again ONE time when we FIRST believe but how is the son made alive again a SECOND time? Note that the father described his son as being DEAD – not physically dead but spiritually dead. We know that the son was spiritually alive when he abided in his father’s house but when he separated himself to pursue a lifestyle of sin, he became spiritually dead. When he repented and returned to his father seeking forgiveness he was made alive AGAIN. Thus Jesus’ point is that a believer/child of God can forfeit their salvation/inheritance when they no longer abide and sever themselves from the vine through habitual disobedience. This results them becoming dead (spiritual death). However, if one truly repents as in the case of the prodigal, God forgives and he/she becomes spiritually ALIVE AGAIN. But if one remains in an unrepentant condition one remains spiritually dead and separated from Christ.

  • Moonbay

    In order to believe that eternal security is not biblical then you must believe that some other scriptures are a lie. The Bible doesn’t lie , so there must be an explanation. The explanation must be that the Word is not referring to Born again Christians when it talks of becoming dead and thrown in the fire etc… It is either referring to the jews(that flock) or those who are semi-christians(not saved). On a side note, I find the reaction of the other brother interesting in the “prodigal son” parable.

    • Stu

      We know that the scriptures don’t lie as all scripture is God-breathed and inspired by God. So not believing in eternal security does not make the other scriptures “lies.” Rather, we must somehow reconcile difficult passages and allow scripture to interpret scripture rather than read our own biases into the text. So taking a look at Jn 10:27-29 again, in v.26 Jesus plainly says to the Jews: “…you are NOT of my sheep. In contrast verses 27-29 refer to Christians as Jesus refers to them as “my sheep” in v.27. Only Christians who hear and follow are promised eternal life – those who don’t have no such assurance.
      Regarding the parable of the prodigal; again, one must reconcile how someone can be made alive again as Jesus repeats himself twice in teaching this. The only way I can think of being made “alive again” is to be believe in the gospel message thus made alive in Christ (first time); experience spiritual death due to habitual sin and made alive again upon repentance and returning to the Father.
      This view is confirmed at the beginning of the same chapter where Jesus describes the shepherd who seeks after the one lost sheep. When does he find his lost sheep? The answer is when the sinner repents in v.7. If one objects, and claim this sinner wasn’t a believer one would be incorrect as this one lost sheep was originally part of the flock of “ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance” – indicating saved persons. Thus the sheep was part of the saved flock – became lost because of sin – repented and as a result was found by the shepherd. We must allow the plain meaning of the text to determine its meaning as Jesus himself taught that a saved person can lose their salvation and experience separation from God.

      • Moonbay

        I see the scripture differently. Jesus can bring us back to him without us ever having been damned. I believe you are right about ppl reading it with a bias though. I see no where in the scripture that indicates that I can earn my way to Heaven by earning brownie points for being good, rather I CHOOSE to do the right thing because I want to or the Holy Spirit is grieved and I am convicted. God does not force us with the threat of damnation. I wouldn’t force my children to hug me or else. And He’s a much better parent than I. You are reading the Word through a filter of someone who doesn’t know the character of God. The Power of the Holy Spirit is great and miraculous. He will finish His work as promised as long as we were saved to begin with. I happen to have sheep-I raise them. I can tell you that just because one of my sheep gets loose doesn’t mean it no longer belongs to me, further more it has a tag on his ear-a seal if you will. They never wander far anyway. They know where home is. Funny it’s always the same ones. Yes they irritate me but they’re still mine. And guess what, Jesus is a better sheperd than me too.

        • Stu

          “You are reading the Word through a filter of someone who doesn’t know the character of God.”
          One must be careful of assuming things about someone else whom is unknown. I can assure you I know a little about the character of God having attended seminary and read the Bible from cover to cover a few times.
          I know what you mean about sheep as I raise cattle myself but using personal anecdotes to justify one’s personal interpretation can be a risky endeavor if it does not actually reflect what the scripture say. One must always contend with the text itself and reconcile those texts that appear to conflict with one’s own view. If one cannot reconcile those contradictory texts, then one must consider the possibility that one might be wrong and be willing to change one’s view. I have actually changed my mind regarding this subject after a few years of study as it was difficult to unlearn what I had been originally taught. If you care to wrestle with the texts in question, where have I erred or what would your interpretation of the texts be?

  • cut

    HOW’S THIS FOR BLACK AND WHITE ?? Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    • AndrewA

      Lets take a look at the start of Chapter 11 to understand what Paul is talking about.

      Romans ch 11 1-8
      1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

      2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

      3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

      4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

      5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

      6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

      7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

      8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

      Notice Verse 6 Grace is not of Works. Paul has said in this age we are saved by Grace and Grace alone. So how then do you lose your salvation if works is not involved. Well Paul says what caused the first branches to be Cut off in verse 23.

      23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

      Unbelief, rejection in the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ, thus Grace was withheld from people who don’t believe. That is the only way to be cut off. Now, lets look if a believer who believes in Jesus and salvation through the cross can become an unbeliever John makes a statement on this one.

      1 John ch 2 verse 19

      19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

      Conclusion
      To be cut off You have to be an unbeliever. Grace comes from faith alone and not by works so works has no bearing on salvation only belief. Finally John has said that people who are unbelievers were not really believers to begin with so their was no losing of salvation only confirmation that they were not saved.

      By simple logic people who are believers can not become unbelievers and salvation comes only from belief. You are then left with only one conclusion eternal salvation is in fact true.

      • Stu

        “To be cut off You have to be an unbeliever. Grace comes from faith alone and not by works so works has no bearing on salvation only belief.”
        Salvation has more aspects to it then just belief alone. While many scriptures do highlight belief, the Bible also refers to a believer’s works as the external evidence of what it means to possess saving faith. For example Js 2:24 clearly states “You see that a person is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE.” This verse contradicts your statement that we are saved by faith alone. Works are the evidence of faith. That is why James asks believers earlier in the chapter: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that FAITH SAVE him? (v.14). In v.20 James answers with another question – “But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is USELESS?” James is saying that unless we wish to be fools, we must recognize the fact that faith and works go hand in hand; you cannot have one without the other. Cognitive belief by itself is worthless.

        “Finally John has said that people who are unbelievers were not really believers to begin with so their was no losing of salvation only confirmation that they were not saved.”
        This is a popular claim among the eternal security crowd but this claim is what is logically known to as a false dichotomy – as if it exhausts all other possibilities. In other words the only conclusion one can draw is that this single passage refers to unbelievers so therefore all the warning passages in the rest of Scripture refer to unbelievers as well. That is a false choice or false dichotomy. While indeed in this one verse, John does refer to those were were not of us to begin with, it does not logically compute that all of the other warning verses in the scriptures must refer to unbelievers as well. The logical alternative still exists that other passages indeed warn of believers being cut off. In fact for instance only believers can apostatize. It is impossible for unbelievers to apostatize because by definition one can abandon the faith only if he/she were truly part of the faith to begin with. Common sense dictates that unbelievers cannot apostatize or fall away from something (faith) that they never belonged to, or were a part of. Therefore believers can and do become unbelievers.

        • Moonbay

          Stu I don’t claim to be a seasoned theologist I’m a simple farmer but I can tell you in my humble opinion that when you love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and soul and seek God first, good works will naturally flow out from you. Since you are also human, you will make mistakes and have bad days. Is faith without works useless? Yes if you haven’t given your whole heart to Jesus and that is very possible to be lukewarm. I happen to know a few(one very close) and some ppl think because they tip their hat and don’t feel they really do anything wrong that it’s good enough and will become infuriated if you suggest anything else. They don’t see a problem with being lukewarm. Yet others believe their own lies about how prefect they are. Some ppl just plain belong to churches who teach incorrect theology of Christ and absolute lies. God knows more about the human condition than us, it’s very complex and can’t really be put in a nutshell. It’s obvious when someone is saved and secure. The spirit resides in them and good works happen. Where ever there are humans, sins will happen though, even David sinned and God almost killed Moses. It’s a good thing He is slow to anger and quick to forgive or none of us would make it. Not every one who claims to be securely saved is trying to be a lazy jerk and take advantage of Jesus. Maybe some just understand the depth of His grace and have such gratefulness at His mercy because they have witnessed it firsthand. But anyways what I meant to say is that I have seen those who seemed interested at first(I dont know what was going on with them inside) and the salvation didn’t seem complete. They fell away. Those are the seeds that didn’t take maybe. Some ended up at bad types of churches with wrong theology etc…

          • Stu

            Moonbay…the Bible was meant to be read by everyday folks. One doesn’t have to be a theologian to understand it. In fact my opinion is that theologians make the Bible more complicated than it actually is. God meant for his Word to be easily understood – even by children. In seminary I was taught that a true believer cannot lose his/her salvation. However there were “pesky” verses that I could never reconcile with this view. After several years of wrestling and continued reading of the scriptures, I had to change my mind and let the scriptures speak for themselves. Indeed, the Holy Spirit is the best teacher.

            You are correct in that there are all kinds of people in the church. Some are goats, some are sheep; some are wheat, some are tares. Some are hot, cold or lukewarm as you have pointed out. In fact funny that you mention lukewarm as Rev 3:16 was one of those verses that I had difficulty reconciling when I previously believed that one couldn’t lose their salvation. When I used to read that verse I would wonder why Jesus said that it would be better to be hot or cold rather than lukewarm. After all, I thought to myself – as a Christian, isn’t it better to be a “lukewarm” Christian rather that a “cold” Christian? A cold Christian is distant and far away in his walk and relationship with the Lord so why would Jesus say he would rather spit the lukewarm believer out of his mouth? It finally dawned on me that the lukewarm believer is like the proverbial frog in the kettle. As the water in the kettle gets warmer, the frog has the ability to adjust and accommodate its body temperature to the environment of the rising water temperature so it does not sense the danger it is in. Before it realizes what is happening it is already too late and the frog is boiled alive. It is the same way with the lukewarm Christian. The lukewarm believer can accommodate sin his/her life and adjust to it to the point that they don’t realize the spiritual danger they are in. If they remain in habitual sin and not repent and flee from it, then they, like the frog will not realize it until it is too late. The lukewarm Christian has deceived himself believing that he is still saved when the opposite is actually the case. The cold Christian on the other hand at least realizes that his relationship with the Lord is distant and needs to be reconciled. The cold Christian knows his true spiritual condition and still has the opportunity to choose to repent but the lukewarm Christian doesn’t sense the urgency to repent and believes he/she is just taking a “warm bath.”

          • AndrewA

            Any response I would have is actually perfectly explained by Moonbay. Nothing more I can say about it.

    • Moonbay

      Did you ever imagine maybe that referred to ppl who claim to be Christians? There’s a lot of those.

  • eddie santana

    Oh my, Cut, that IS a good one. I need a front row seat for this one. Ok Geoffy, let’s see how you punt this one. (Patiently waiting….)

    • AndrewA

      Ephesians Chapter 4 verse 29-32

      29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

      30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

      31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

      32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

      • Moonbay

        It’s ok to work this out AndrewA it needs to be done. The Bible doesn’t lie, so which is it?

        • AndrewA

          Sorry I don’t honestly understand your point could yo please make it more clear?

          I simply was wanting to Show eddie that 1 you are sealed tell the day of redemption and 2 he should be kind and less bitter towards certain people and instead needs to be more kind as making a show of sitting off to the side with a proverbial bag of popcorn smiling at a potential fight is not the right attitude to have.

          • Moonbay

            I gotcha

  • eddie santana

    “30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

    So your argument is that Christians “can’t” grieve the Spirit, and that’s just not right, why else would Paul warn against it? If the Spirit is grieved enough, God’s taking off, and you’re on your own. Example: King Saul. And your argument that Christians that backslide were never really Christians must fail also, otherwise it nullifies the parable of the sower. We know God always keeps his promise to keep us, but not if we don’t do our part. No one wants to hear it, but yes, our salvation is conditional. But it’s doable if our heart is right.

    • AndrewA

      First we have to ask what happens when we grieve the holy spirit and what is it to cause the holy spirit to Grieve.

      This is sin as the context of the text I quoted shows. When a Believer sins missteps happens the Holy Spirit is grieved. What does grieve mean?

      grieve
      ɡrēv/
      verb
      verb: grieve; 3rd person present: grieves; past tense: grieved; past participle: grieved; gerund or present participle: grieving

      suffer grief.
      “she grieved for her father”
      synonyms: mourn, lament, sorrow, be sorrowful; More
      cry, sob, weep, shed tears, weep and wail, beat one’s breast
      “she grieved for her father”
      antonyms: rejoice
      feel grief for or because of.
      “she did not have the opportunity to grieve her mother’s death”
      cause great distress to (someone).
      “what grieves you, my son?”

      Suffer, Great Distress seem to be the best context for Feeling you are causing the Holy Spirit when you sin with it being indwelt by you. Now their is not talk of losing salvation in these versus only of Causing the Holy Spirit undue suffering. Being a Believer the last thing you want to do is grieve God I know that is how I feel. is that the way you feel?

      If so then Paul’s warning is if we love God then grieving God is something we do not want to do so don’t do it. Will it happen sadly yes we are still in the bodies of flesh which contain sin and their fore it happens.

      Paul also does not declare you unsaved due to Grieving the Holy Spirit in fact the opposite for he has said You are sealed tell the day of redemption.

      That is a clear statement on the state of your salvation.

      In Closing King Saul was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit and born again in the Body of Christ.

      I have already explained what you said wrong about the Parable of the Sower and how that was not talking about Christians. Instead it was about how all of mankind receives the message of the kingdom. How do I know this? That is what Jesus said in his explanation that the seed is the Message of the Kingdom and the soil different peoples hearts. Nothing in their about Salvation or Grace just how people are going to receive his message he is preaching and how most will in fact reject it rather then accept it and why it is rejected.

      Again the Parable of the Wheat and Tares is a better explanation on the kingdom of God. Wheat didn’t magical become Tares the Tares were always Tares. So they were never of God in Fact God the planter said they were never his.

      Again you need to read what Jesus’s explanation on the Parables are he literally tells us the answer after talking about the parables.

      • Inasmuch As

        AndrewA wrote: “First we have to ask what happens when we grieve the holy spirit and what is it to cause the holy spirit to Grieve.

        This is sin as the context of the text I quoted shows. When a Believer sins missteps happens the Holy Spirit is grieved. What does grieve mean?”

        Look to the O.T. as to how the word “grieve” is used and you will come up with a different understanding. Those things were written as ensamples for us. The same God then is the same One today and He said he changes not.

        The Lord said, “Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
        7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.” Then came The Flood. We are in the time like the days of Noe.
        Hebrew; grieve ~ atsab aw-tsab’

        a primitive root; properly, to carve, i.e. fabricate or fashion; hence (in a bad sense) to worry, pain or anger:— displease, grieve, hurt, make, be sorry, vex, worship, wrest.

        Make note of anger and wrest.

        Read the whole of Psalms 78 for how that anger was manifest.

        Ps 78:40 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!

        God killed Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu, when they offered strange fire before him. Lev. 10:1-2. There is much speculation about what that was. It could be they were drunk and therefore not holy and despised Him (lightly esteemed the Rock of their salvation) and therefore He killed them as He said he would do to all who despised Him.

        Pr 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.

        Nu 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, (ruwm) whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
        31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

        Hebrew: presumptuously ~ ruwm room

        a primitive root; to be high actively, to rise or raise (in various applications, literally or figuratively):—bring up, exalt (self), extol, give, go up, haughty, heave (up), (be, lift up on, make on, set up on, too) high(-er, one), hold up, levy, lift(-er) up, (be) lofty, (X a-)loud, mount up, offer (up), + presumptuously, (be) promote(-ion), proud, set up, tall(-er), take (away, off, up), breed worms.

        A lot more respect needs to be given to the word “grieve.”

        Ps 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

        Not those who don’t do his commandments.

        Pr 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

        • AndrewA

          Nothing you have said has contradicted what I have said or quoted earlier. In fact the scripture you have quoted is in agreement with what I quoted.

          Ephesians chapter 2:
          1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

          2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

          3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

          4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

          5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

          6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

          7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

          8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

          9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

          10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

          11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

          12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

          13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

          14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

          15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

          16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

          17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

          18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

          19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

          20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

          21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

          22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

          I ask you to take very special note of Verse 15. Paul is speaking to the statement you have just made.

          On a final Note:
          Would still like an answer to the 2 questions I asked you earlier thank you for the response.

          • Inasmuch As

            AndrewA: The problem with following false teachers as you do is that you end up in the ditch with them and can’t find your way back, indeed, you don’t know you are in the ditch. Those false teachers have another gospel, another Jesus and are of another spirit.

            2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
            4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
            lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

            2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
            4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

            Rather than believe you cannot be deceived, take heed of those scriptures wherein Jesus said you could be.

            >>>On a final Note:
            Would still like an answer to the 2 questions I asked you earlier thank you for the response.

            I do not have time for extensive posting on this thread. My time is better spent helping those who have a teachable spirit rather than another Jannes and Jambres.

            2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
            9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was..

          • AndrewA

            If that is what you wish then so be it. I Know who Jesus is even if can not see it.

            John ch 1 verse 1-16
            1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

            2 The same was in the beginning with God.

            3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

            4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

            5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

            6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

            7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

            8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

            9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

            10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

            11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

            12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

            13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

            14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

            15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

            16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

            17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

            18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

            That is the Jesus I believe and speak of.

            If you say I preach another Jesus other then what I just said you are mistaken.

            Know I forgive you and wish you wake up and realize you are not striking at me with what You said but he who I have spoken of.

  • eddie santana

    The concept, just like salvation is too easy. The problem is people want to do it their own way, or according to what “they believe,” or “what they’ve been taught.”

  • eddie santana

    Holy cow, great points, Obi. Woohooo! Especially the one that satan wouldn’t tempt us if he didn’t think it would do any good. Bravo!

  • in response to Stu.
    Th”at is a very good example you have given of the Lukewarm christian. I wish every blogger would read this comment. Revelation 3 is the scripture that tell the condition of the endtime church. Mr Grider and other shy away from this scripture because it do not fit they theology. All the evidence is there for a blind man to see. Look at the LGBT agenda that is infiltrating the denominations leadership. Who can deny that Apostasy is being fulfilled. With the Pope also making allowance in the church them prophesy is fulfilled. Once save , always save is a license to sin and not repent ,or to even deny sin at all. forgivness is always there when the believer sin and repent.

    • AndrewA

      Their is an entire section of this website called. Church of Laodicea.

      It is filled with articles concerning Churches who doing non christian practices.

      All you have to do is Google search Now the End Begains Church of Laodacia and it pulls the section up as the first result. Here is the link.

      http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?cat=5157

      That seems to not be shying away from the scripture to me.

      Finally The article again does not say once saved always saved is a license to sin with out repentance. That is what You have said. The article Specifically says that is not what it is about. Try reading it again so you can better understand the point of the Author and please try not putting in your own words into the authors mouth. Instead try reading and responding to what the Author is saying.

      • Stu

        The Reformed view does teach that eternal security is not a license to sin and that one must persevere. However, this view also asserts that the warning passages in Scripture that appear to contradict eternal security are not really contradictory at all because they do not refer to believers but to those who were never really saved in the first place. As I pointed out earlier, by definition only believers can be guilty of apostasy. It is impossible for unbelievers to apostatize as one cannot abandon the faith since one was never a part of the faith to begin with. In the first verse of 1 Timothy chapter 4 Paul explicitly declares that some will abandon the faith: “Now the Spirit says clearly that in the last times some people will abandon the faith by following deceitful spirits, the teachings of demons,” (1 Tim 4:1). Only the brethren are capable of abandoning the faith. Can Paul be any clearer that Christians can fall away?
        That is why Paul calls for all believers to persevere in the closing verse of chapter 4.
        “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF YOU DO, you WILL SAVE both yourself and your hearers.”
        Paul’s warning is a conditional one as indicated by his use of the little word “if.” Converse logic dictates that IF you DO NOT (persevere), you WILL NOT SAVE yourself and your hearers. Salvation is conditional, not unconditional.

        • AndrewA

          To quote someone.

          For salvation to be lost and controlled by the actions of man you must be able to answer these questions.

          “1. What kind of works are necessary to meet God’s approval for righteousness?

          2.How many of these works are necessary?”

          Sorry to make this seem off topic, but in order for me to better understand your point I am going to need to be able to apply what you are saying to those 2 questions. From their I can see what you are saying hopefully with the word of God as you have been doing so far and apply it with what God is saying.

          Thankyou for the response.

          • Stu

            I don’t really see how posting your questions in response to my posts addresses what I have already written. I think I have posted scripture references which both support my position and also address eternal security claims, yet no one so far has responded by dealing with those texts directly. I have to really wonder why that is? Nonetheless, I will do you the courtesy and directly respond to your questions.
            1. What kind of works are necessary to meet God’s approval for righteousness?
            Answer: Works that demonstrate repentance. I have already cited Rom 26:20 where Paul explicitly states that the gospel message that he himself preached to people was that that “they should repent and turn to God, performing DEEDS IN KEEPING WITH REPENTANCE.” If the fruit of one’s life does not represent a repentant lifestyle, then it behooves one to look in the mirror and reflect if one is still in right-standing with God.

            Also, 1 Jn 3:7 also states: “Little children, MAKE SURE NO ONE DECEIVES YOU; the one who PRACTICES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, just as He is righteous;”
            This verse directly answers your question. When we do works of righteousness, these works give practical evidence that we are in fact positionally righteous. If a Christian’s lifestyle is marked by unrighteous living, then he/she is not righteous and falls short of God’s approval. If we as Christians (little children) refuse to believe this plain statement of scripture, this verse sternly warns us that we are deceived and none of us wants to be deceived so we should heed what it says.

            2.How many of these works are necessary?
            Answer: Respectfully, you ask the wrong question for it is not a numbers game; it is not quantity but the quality of one’s life. We have assurance from God as long as we can affirm that we hear and follow him. That is why Jesus promised eternal life exclusively to those sheep who “listen and follow” in Jn 10:27-29.
            We have assurance as long as our lives are generally characterized by living according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. Rom 8:12-13 states: “So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
            Paul’s warning is a somber one as these verses describe the potential death of born-again believers, referred to as the brothers in v. 12. If this death were not a real possibility, the warning would be nonsensical. We also know that this warning pertains to spiritual death – not physical death – because everyone dies physically irrespective of how we live our lives. Moreover, one must have spiritual life in order to be in danger of spiritual death. You cannot threaten a spiritually dead person with spiritual death. Such a person is already dead. Therefore, it must be concluded that these are regenerate brethren who are being warned of dying. Also note that this verse is conditional – not unconditional – as indicated by the word “if.” IF believers walk according to the flesh = they will die. IF believers walk according to the Spirit = they will live. Simple as that. Verse 13 cannot be said to apply to unbelievers because only believers have the choice as to whether to walk according to the Spirit or according to the flesh. Unregenerate persons have no such choice; are incapable of walking according to the Spirit and can only walk according to the flesh. Thus, it stands to reason that Paul’s warning of spiritual death; i.e. eternal separation from God is directed to Christians who live in rebellion and knowingly engage in habitual sin.

          • AndrewA

            Well as I said it would seem a little off topic with what you were talking about. I wanted to first better understand your thoughts on an application to works so I could go from their. The most basic thing I wanted to make sure was you were not talking about a works as means to mantain salvation too many people claim works is a basis which we keep are salvation and I wanted to see how you were applying works. I will look to answer what you said earlier when I have a chance I am a little pressed for time at this moment. Thank you very much for the time.

  • Moonbay

    If you ask me, one way to be lukewarm is having one foot in the blood of Jesus and the other foot in your own works which you expect to save you. Who do you put your trust in? Jesus or you? Make up your mind.

    • Stu

      Moonbay – can you point to me in all of Scripture whether in the OT or the NT, where God condemns works done out of obedience to God? The answer as you well know is – there is NONE. So may I ask why do you condemn works? Titus 2:14 declares: “who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are ZEALOUS for good works.” Eph 2:10 states that we were CREATED to do good works. I believe the error in you argument is you that you fail to distinguish between good works done out of obedience to God and works done in our own flesh. The former is approved of while the latter is always condemned. Be careful how you use your terms. Obedience on our part is requisite for salvation for Heb 5:9 states: “And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him.” While other scriptures mandate belief note that this verse doesn’t say “believe him;” it says “obey him.” Therefore belief and obedience are necessary for salvation. I believe in Jesus but I also pay attention to my own walk as well. I trust you do the same.

    • Dan

      Moonbay, have you ever asked yourself the question why would something that concerns your very salvation be so vague ?

      What is lukewarm and better yet what is a first century writers idea of lukewarm?

      Do you really believe GOD is so trivial that he gives us a command so vague as Lukewarm?

      Whats worse is some of you live for this confusion.

      So you say one way to be lukewarm is having one foot in the blood of Jesus and the other foot in your works which you expect to save you. (Really)

      So you think that’s gonna do it? GODS mad now?

      Come on people find something to worry about.

      Be nice. Don’t worry if you get angry! Try to always do the right thing.
      Love the people GOD puts in your life. Who here would give their life literally die for Christ? Trust me as long as you feel this way your never lukewarm.

      But most of all stop making your lives more difficult by creating problems with GOD that are not there.
      GOD loves us. I promise ! He really does even the stupid ones
      (including me)

      And To STU

      What kind of works are necessary to meet GOD’s approval for righteousness ?
      Answer : works that demonstrate repentance.

      Boy satans got you twisting in the wind friend. I mean I can see you in the inquisitions. A pasty bald sweaty white dude wearing a tunic with his sinners manacled beaten and blooded. Repent, repent ! (kidding)

      Please God requires no such thing.

      Blessings

      • Stu

        @ Dan – you are certainly entitled to your opinion but an opinion unsubstantiated by Scripture is just about worthless. You would be better off and perhaps more convincing if you at least attempted to deal with the text.

        • Dan

          @ Stu, the dramatics didn’t do it for you? Stu how could I convince you with the very words that you convict yourself with?

          Stu, there’s something about the statement “works that demonstrate repentance “I’ve not seen here yet.

          Its usually in the context which James presented it.

          Why am I not using the words of a fellow brother of Christ. Well its not that I don’t know them or rather haven’t read them. Its, because I believe Stu reciting the words of another is easy. Try using the spirit GOD gave you. You’ll find your words are just as good. Please do it without King James though. Christ showed us that just reading the text was not what GOD intended. You remember the story about the sabbath the animal and work. Christ showed us the spirit of the law and it wasn’t in the book. If you can’t get beyond the text of what the apostles left how will you ever understand the spirit and know the difference between that and the text of a book?

          Stu, you are blessed because you hear his voice. Trust me its not easy. We just take it for granted because we’ve always heard it.
          Next time you meet an atheist remember this.

          Blessings

          • Stu

            You keep voicing your personal opinion without any scriptural backing so why should anyone believe or even understand what you write?

      • Moonbay

        Thank you Dan, you’re right I shouldn’t worry. God has shared with me that He lives in me and I’m saved even tho I’m a doofus sometimes. Also you’re right, it wouldn’t be so vague. Salvation is kinda important or else Christ wouldn’t have died on the cross for us I imagine. The reason I address this is because it seems to be a heavy subject of debate on forums and comment sections and a matter of serious division in the church. I know exactly what a lukewarm Christian is and I bet we all do.

        • Dan

          MoonBay I’m glad you understood my remarks were meant to encourage and not to ridicule.

          You are right Moonbay in that salvation is not lost.

          Why Christians feel the need to describe the most despicable of persons and then point and say “well is he still saved” is hilarious.

          Anyone (Anyone) who does not follow Christ will do so willingly and it want be by accident or because they knowingly weren’t good enough or acting right.

          Trust GOD to correct you the same way a parent corrects a child always lovingly and with you best interest in mind.

          And , it’s GOD so you will always get it right even if you don’t 70×7 right

          Have a blessed day friend

          • Dan

            @ Stu , why you can’t understand me brother is a good question.

            As for using scripture . I have friend you just didn’t recognize it.

  • Moonbay

    Someone should post all the commandments that we supposedly don’t keep. For instance Christ said “Love the Lord thy God with all your heart mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself” when asked what the most important was…I don’t feel like I should be slaughtering lambs and such but yes there are commands to follow. I think it would be interesting to see them listed, although no one can be perfect. I think on Jesus all day and fellowship with him and listen to praise and worship, He teaches me so much and I read the Word and love Him more than anything and He is the most important thing in my life. Are you telling me after all that I’m gonna get thrown in the fire? No way. God has filled my life with miracles and Love and teaching. He will never let me down and no one can convince me otherwise. I have the Holy Spirit and the Word in my heart and it’s telling me the “works” thing is wrong. Proud, stiff necked and wrong.

  • Inasmuch As

    AndrewA wrote: “If you say I preach another Jesus other then what I just said you are mistaken. Know I forgive you and wish you wake up and realize you are not striking at me with what You said but he who I have spoken of.”

    Thus sayeth the Lord.

    1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    Castaway in Greek is Adokimos: unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally):—castaway, rejected, reprobate.

    1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

    • AndrewA

      Mam, what you should be Quoting that I said is John ch 1 verse 1-18 those words are what is written on my Heart and was my answer to your accusation.

      I worship the Word come in the Flesh that all who call on his name shall be saved. That name is Jesus the Christ crucified for the sins of the world and offered himself to the Father as sacrifice so that the world might be saved. He however was raised from the dead and now sits at the Fathers Right hand from their he is coming back.

      Of the two of us only one has declared who the Jesus they worship is.

      • Inasmuch As

        AndrewA wrote: “what you should be Quoting that I said is John ch 1 verse 1-18 those words are what is written on my Heart and was my answer to your accusation.”

        Not my accusation. Either your own heart or a demon or Satan is your accuser. The word should convict but because of your arrogant attitude has not.

        Your questions arise out your minimalist thinking, “What is the least I have to do to be saved?” That is stinking thinking repugnant to any true believer and the Lord himself. Jesus said, “If you love me keep my commandments” and you wrest scriptures (“wrest means grieve…as in the Holy Spirit) every which way to say, “Yea, hath God said?” Repent!

        If you were of God you would hear his voice. Because you are listening to another spirit you don’t hear him and you are not one of his sheep. I have studied how to hear God (Shema) for decades and have met people who do and more who don’t. The key to hearing him is obedience.

        The Holy Spirit says one thing to all believers throughout time and throughout the entire Bible not simply the New Testament. He doesn’t teach OSAS and anti-OSAS at the same time. One is true and the other is false. In this case OSAS is false doctrine and may be damnable heresy.

        1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

        I suggest you START OVER. Stop following men! Lay your doctrines at the foot of the cross and pick up a KJB and Strong’s and then examine yourself, repenting of all the sin you find and see if he will give you repentance at all. So far he hasn’t given you repentance but going by your attitude, it is easy to see why for anyone who has a normal fear of the Lord.

        Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
        15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
        16-17 … Esau … was rejected.

        A Jewish Rabbi wrote to me and said that the KJB was the first English Bible the Jews used and is still the most accurate to the original languages. Snuggled in the meaning of “hear: (Shema) is the word obey and after you obey God will give you understanding. Shemot 24:7. https://www.ou.org/holidays/shavuot/naaseh_vnishma/

        To repeat myself: “Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” The wise repent.

        Pray this for a start:

        Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
        11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

        Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
        24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

        • AndrewA

          You spend all your time condemning. The Lord did not come to Condemn the world but to save it.

          John 3:17 (King James Bible)
          17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

          You also are making gross assumptions that are completely incorrect about who I am.

          I am not trying to slide by doing minimal work if that were the case I wouldn’t even be talking to you right now. I would of just walked away a long time ago. Yet here I am still willing to have a conversation.

          Is it wrong to admit I sinned? Paul declares all have sinned and fall short the Glory. That is why Jesus had to die so the Law could be fulfilled in the eyes of God.

          Romans ch 3 verse 23-31 (King James Bible)
          23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

          24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

          25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

          26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

          27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

          28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

          29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

          30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

          31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

          I don’t boast of works for my salvation only of the Actions of Jesus who though belief on his name I am saved. Do I say the law is not necessary no. The law is to show how you are seen in the eyes of God a stick from which all can be measured. The law convicts us of are sin and Jesus Redeems us through his sacrifice. This is made clear by Paul and I have already stated this is what I believe.

          You are saved by Faith in Jesus. Only not believing in him is the way to damnation.

          Roman ch 3 verse 20-22
          20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

          21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

          22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

          I have accepted Jesus already you are trying to convict an already admitted sinner of Guilt. I know my sin’s and repented I listed them publicly so all could know what they were, what I had done. I don’t need to hide my past sins the Lord knows them and I admitted to them years ago before God. I have asked for repentance already and you should know the price has already been payed. They were payed for at the Cross. All have a chance at salvation for the price of sin is already payed all you have to do is believe Jesus payed for them when he was crucified.

          You have spoken with out knowledge of what you are talking about in relation to my heart, Spirit and Soul. I understood everything you have said. I am not an unrepentant sinner I am sinner who asked the lord for forgiveness and by the Grace of God was made new and baptized by the Holy Spirit.

          That is why you should of Quoted what I cited from John when you responded. That is what is in my heart. The message of Life and Truth. You fail to understand I am quoting that scripture because that is what I believe the verses are my thoughts on the mater that is what is written in my heart. That is what I believe what is written in the Bible is True.

          If you had simply asked me earlier If I was a repentant sinner I would of told you yes I am.

          By the way what you quoted:
          To repeat myself: “Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” The wise repent.

          What the Wicked don’t understand is the price of sin is death. That their wicked actions are an offense to God and they can not be in His presence also due to sin a sacrifice must be made. Ether their life or another must be taken and if it is another person they must be without sin.

          Why?

          because a sinners death only pays for the sins they committed but a person without sin can pay for the death of any sinner for the have committed no wrong.

          Jesus had to die because I and every other human being is a sinner. Only he was with out sin begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He loved us so much he died in mine and every other humans place so that we could have eternal life.

          • Moonbay

            I wish I had a hundred friends like you! You speak the truth with the spirit.

  • Moonbay

    You are referring to the crowns which we present to Jesus when we are judged for our works. Some works might be rejected. Maybe some will have no crowns to present. I don’t think that one is referring to salvation. We aren’t judged for anything other than our works for Jesus because all our sins are cast as far as the east is from the west. Solomon was alive before Jesus. Jesus brought salvation to the gentiles. The covenant God had with the Jews was different. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit. But if you like the old testament, remember that one part(not as good as y’alls about finding scriptures that I’m thinking of) that part when he fell asleep and the fire from God consumed both parts of the sacrifice? I think that means God meets both parts of our new covenent his and ours. Nothing we can ever do would be good enough-the Old testament reveals that and that God is Holy and perfect. Even our righteousness is like filthy rags before God and The God of Abraham Isaac and Israel laughs at the wisdom of man. For instance when I was saved I was a mess, and had a bad upbringing and hard life. I tried hard but failed many times and sometimes regressed but God was patient and understanding. I was tempted and He allowed some things to happen and I learned tough lessons and grew strong. Now I’m much different but still have problems and issues! I’ll just keep growing under God’s guidance and He forgives me. He is purifying my heart in the fire, giving me character and wow a lot of miracles and parables of teaching. I pray that He will always do the same in your life and if I’m wrong in any way He will test my heart and teach me right ways always. He is the most important thing in the universe so why not?

  • eddie santana

    You guys have too much time on your hands. It’s ridiculous, and you need to stop. Geez.

    • Moonbay

      I always have time for Jesus. It’s important. It’s a matter of division in the Christian church and I wish it weren’t. If someone is reached (if not now then someday)then is it a waste of time?

  • eddie santana

    Moon, in answer to your question, I always have time to Jesus too, but not for petty squabbling like the people are doing now. Paul said don’t get caught up in petty squabbling. These people are SET in their thinking. You’re not going to change that. The convo has been more than rehearsed. Now it’s just people’s obsessive need to be “right.” THAT is what’s ridiculous.

  • Good word Andrew. The true Gospel and the counterfiet are so close that it take the Holy Spirit to tell the difference. It is like a counterfeit dollar bill The scripture quoted in 1John 2v24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. .
    25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. .
    26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. .
    27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. .
    28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
    All bloggers please read this. IT IS NOT YOUR THEOLOGY, DOCTRINE, GRACE OR THE LACK OF IT.THE IMPORTANT things here , the anointing which is the Holy Spirit, this make you want to continue in the SON, and the FATHER. The anointing cannot teach error. God Bless all of you who are sincerely seeking to follow Jesus and surrender to his will. So check your self to see if you have it.

  • To all christian believers, those who have been writing on thid blog. After you have head these verses several times, i want you to tell me .WHO IS TEACHING YOU. Remember that “God is not the author of confusion.
    I will post some questions after I get some responses.
    1 John2v24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. .
    25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. .
    26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. .
    27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. .
    .

  • AndrewA

    On a note to Stu I haven’t forgotten that I said I would try to get to responding to what you said. I just haven’t had time yet to sit down and give it the attention it deserves. I can say Paul has words concerning Salvation and how long it lasts.

    Ephesians ch 1 verse 13-14
    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Paul from what I can tell is saying. That once you have salvation. You are indwelt by the Holy Spirit which seals you until the day of Redemption. You have become a purchased possession of Christ.

    To see what it is Paul says you need to have salvation one simply needs to Look to Romans ch 10.

    Romans ch 10 verse 9-13
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Here we are told whoever calls on the name of the Lord is saved. You simply must confess you believe and be rewarded with Salvation.

    So to sum up Paul has said in Romans confess you believe Jesus died for you sins and you will have salvation. In Ephesians he said once you have salvation you are sealed with the Holy Spirit until redemption.

    That seems to indicate what I was saying earlier If you believe you are saved. If saved you are sealed until redemption.

    I know this is not a direct response to explain the texts you quoted. I haven’t had time to sit down and give a proper response to. However this I hope conveys why I am currently where I am if you see something I have misrepresented with the texts quoted then please point it out.

    To Moonbay thank you for the kind words. You have at least one friend and brother in Christ.

    To Chesterfield walrond

    Thank you for the scripture quote of 1 John.

    • Stu

      Not a problem Andrew; take as long as you like as this topic has been debated for centuries so no big rush. I think part of the problem in our English translations is that the Greek verb tenses are not always accurately conveyed. For example if you study the well-known Jn 3:16 verse, if you parse the verb translated as “believe” it is a present tense verb which signifies continuous action so the word pisteuo is actually “believing.” So that everyone who is believing in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Most people read this as a one-time only moment of belief but the verse really refers to the necessity of ONGOING belief.
      Just briefly; other food for thought – does being sealed by the Holy Spirit automatically mean that this seal is an unbreakable one? This is the premise in OSAS thinking but the few passages that refer to this do not explicitly state this, so therefore it has to be inferred. In Eph 1:14-16 the word “arrabon” has been translated as guarantee, pledge, deposit, earnest, down payment toward our inheritance. An analogy to consider is that when one makes a down payment on a mortgage, that transaction shows that the person who gives the deposit/earnest money is demonstrating good faith that the full payment on the balance will eventually be fulfilled. As we know not all people are faithful in paying off their mortgage. In the same way, not all believers are faithful to the end of their spiritual journey. That is why the Bible calls on every single believer without exception to work out one’s salvation with fear and trembling; to fight the good fight and finish the race. Salvation is only promised to those who persevere and overcome. If salvation were a “done deal” these admonitions would be nonsensical.

      • AndrewA

        Well I can respond to some of what you just said right now.

        On the verb tense you and me actually agree. It is a continual processes. The thing we need to keep in mind is once you belive in your heart then as Paul says you are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

        This becomes a case of I believe therefore I know.

        Once you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and accept that on faith. Then the Holy Spirit comes and resides in you sealing you until redemption. Once indwelt by The Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit tells you what you believed is true for it is the Spirit of Truth. The promise you took on faith is confirmed by the Holy Spirit thus it is no longer just an act of faith but a known fact for the born again believer. this is what Paul was talking about in Ephasions that I qouted.

        Ephesians ch 1 verse 13
        13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

        On the Down payment analogy. What we also need to remember is we are not the ones who made the Payment. Jesus is the redeemer of are debt. The debt was death due to are sin. Adam in his sin as well foreclosed on are control of the earth and ceded it to the Prince of the Power of the Air. (Jesus in paying the debt is also able to inherit what Adam gave up and take control over the earth.)

        Jesus who had not sinned died so that he could pay or square are debt with the Father and allow us to have eternal life. The condition Jesus gave us was we had to believe and accept his payment for are debt. If we do then are debt is considered payed in full.

        We are simply waiting at this point for Jesus to come back and call us to him. He is as we are told by Paul in Romans waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to be completed. The person who performed the down payment is not us but Jesus he is the one who died on the cross and payed the sin price.

        Jesus fulfills the Jewish traditional role of a kinsmen redeemer for mankind.

        • Stu

          Indeed I agree with you that Jesus as our Redeemer has paid our debt on the cross. However, redemption is not without conditions on our part. We know that believe is one condition as well as repentance demonstrated as obedience to God. If these conditions are not fulfilled then we have forfeited our part of the covenant. Note how Paul described the gospel message he himself preached: “First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their DEEDS (Acts 26:20).
          Heb 5:9 “and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who OBEY him.”
          Jn 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
          Since the Word does not contradict itself and we must take the whole counsel of Scripture into consideration

          • Stu

            Sorry, didn’t finish my reply as my keyboard is a piece of junk. Anyway Jn 3:36 properly reads “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does NOT OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
            So it appears that besides belief, we have to obey in order to have eternal life. The problem is people label obedience as works-based salvation. The Bible in both the OT and NT however never condemns obedience to God as works. Heb 5:9 instructs us to obey God in order to have eternal life. No obedience = No salvation. That is why Paul warns Christians in Rom 8:12-13 that if they live according to the flesh, they will die (spiritual death). If they live according to the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body, they will live. That is why I don’t believe that being sealed means that one’s salvation is guaranteed since we have an obligation to live obedient and holy (not perfect) lives. If we sow to the flesh all bets are off.

          • AndrewA

            Well once again we are actually agreeing to a point.

            Obedience comes about due to renewal of the spirit like works it is not an act of maintenance to maintain an already payed for and received salvation but the result of indwelling by the Holy Spirit. On works we were told by Paul exactly what they are in Ephesians ch 2.

            Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10
            10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

            Being baptized by the Holy Spirit makes us a new creation. We are created to do good works as part of are spiritual renewal these works God has planned to further his Glory and great plan for mankind.

            Now lets see what Paul is talking about obedience and if it is similar to what he said about works in relation Jesus and salvation.

            Interestingly the best example of The Renewal of Spirit giving us a new sense of obedience to God comes from Romans 8. Chapter 8 of Romans should not be used as a warning to living in the flesh. It can be but it misses the primary point Paul is talking about.

            What he is saying in chapter 8 is once Christ lives in you, you stop wanting things of the Flesh and instead desire the things of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit by indwelling in you has changed your desires and wants from the things of corruption and flesh to the things of spirit truth and eternal life. To see that Paul’s warning of flesh is death does not apply to a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit you need look no further then the first 3 verses of chapter 8.

            1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
            2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
            3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

            Can we be sure what I said is true lets look at verse 9

            9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

            Paul says clearly before we even get to verse 12 and 13 that if the Spirit of God dwells in you you are not in the flesh and what he is going to say in verse 12 and 13 does not apply to a person indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

            In the following verses 14-17 we are given more information about what it means to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

            14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
            15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
            16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
            17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

            We are told all led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

            That we are receiving salvation and a relationship with God not a set of restrictions to live by or be cast away. This verse once again show how he was not referring to indwelt Christians when he gave he warning of the Flesh.

            Finally verse 16 and 17 tells us that being indwelt is confirmation of your salvation it is proof of your relationship and inheritance to God.

            Finally one of the more powerful set of verse in this chapter is 25 to 39

            24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
            25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
            26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
            27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
            28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
            29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
            30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
            31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
            32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
            33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
            34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
            35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
            36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
            37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
            38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
            39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

            I ask you to let that all sink in Paul is talking about the power of change that comes about once you are sealed in the Holy Spirit. It transforms you and allows you to overcome the trials and tribulations of the world and the corruption of the Flesh. Chapter 8 of Romans is actually one of the most powerful messages of an enduring salvation that Paul ever lays out in writing.

  • eddie santana

    Ok, to all that mush I’ll just add the obvious: that works doesn’t save you, it is evidence of your salvation/conversion. That is all.

  • eddie santana

    “Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt. 24

    So much for eternal security if we don’t do our part. I don’t think loss of rewards is going to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. lol

  • Tracy

    @eddie,
    Did you notice the verse said EVIL servant?, 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt. 24

  • eddie santana

    Yes Tracy, I saw, but did you see the word ‘servant,’ after evil? That means that the servant had a relationship with the master, and was doing “the right thing” until he got it in his head “the mice will play while the cat’s away.’ The whole parable is geared towards an expectation which non-Christians would not have such an expectation (of the Lord’s coming).

    • AndrewA

      Satan had a relationship with God at one point.

      However this is more a case of you once again misapplying the parable.

      Jesus is referring to the Jewish nation. He is warning the Jews that they should make themselves ready for his coming at the time he is speaking about earlier. (That time being Jacob’s Trouble also know as the Great Tribulation.) and to ready themselves for the coming of the Lord to take position of the Earth is at hand and those who don’t believe in the coming Messiah will be cast out.

      That parable is not talking about the church but instead the Jewish nation.

      • Tracy

        @Andrew,
        Your post above, regarding the Holy Spirit coming to indwell inside a saved person, is just about as clear as it gets. He comes for a reason…that as our “Helper.” And, we are a new creation after being born again, faults and all….but because of being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, we will want to live a life that is pleasing to God. Doesn’t mean that we live sinless, but we WANT to do better. Too, if you don’t believe that God chastises a saved person, then just try it!! Believe me, you WON’T be happy. One thing for sure is that God knows our hearts, minds and souls, and that is what counts.

        • AndrewA

          Should of responded sooner.

          Amen, that is exactly the point.

      • Stu

        Respectfully, your interpretation might be plausible Andrew except for the fact that there is a parallel passage in Luke 12:35-48 which appears that Jesus’ words are indeed directed to all persons and not the Jewish nation.
        First note the context of whom Jesus is addressing in this passage as he refers to them as “little flock” in v.32 – a term that refers to believers. More specifically, Peter asks Jesus the same question as to whom is this parable for – only to us or to all people” in v.41. Jesus replies to Peter by asking a question himself in v.42 – And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?” The implication is that anyone who is faithful and wise qualifies to be His servant. This is further confirmed in v.48 where Jesus states “For EVERYONE to whom much is given….”
        Based on Jesus’ own interpretation of his parable, we see that his teaching here applies to everyone and is not exclusive to the Jews. Also note one very significant detail in v.46 regarding the servant who did not do his master’s will. This verse declares that that servant will be assigned a place with the UNBELIEVERS. In my opinion, this is one of those passages that clearly teach against eternal security – and by Jesus himself no less. It is therefore incumbent upon us to take his words to heart.

        • AndrewA

          Actually what I said is not in disagreement with what you said I agree with your statement let me explain why.

          Yes, The warning of his 2nd coming and all to have faith is a warning to the whole world for all who believe in him will be saved. Not just Jews however the Kingdom is first offered to the Jews and then to the Gentiles.

          The key point of the message is all the world is a servant to God.

          The Created are to serve and worship the Creator. Of mankind much was given to the sons of Jacob. They were set aside and made separate from the whole world a special people to call after and follow God. Much was given to them and Revelation about God under Mosaic Law went this way. God gave it to the Jewish people and from their the message was given to the Gentiles.

          Example Daniel was told the meanings and truths of God and the passed it on to Nebuchadnezzar and the later kings Daniel served.

          Johna and the Assyrians

          So in that passage Jesus is referring primarily to the Jewish people telling them to make ready and prepare for the Messiah’s 2nd coming His first has come and he is already being rejected so he is giving them warning about when he is going to come to take his kingdom at the 2nd advent what it will be like and what you should do to be saved at that time. As that is what the chapter is about the 2nd coming of the Lord and him establishing his kingdom.

          Christians are not waiting for the establishment of the Kingdom but the Lord to Call us to meet him and be fully made new and without sin in spirit and flesh. Are promise is to be in the Body of Christ.

          I would also like to point out being a Christian require you believe in Jesus and everything he said is true. If you say in your heart he is not coming you reject the message and are not walking after the spirit then you clearly are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You are in fact not a Christian you cant accept the message of his sacrifice and him being God as true while in the same breath reject what he said about coming again as not being true. This is to reject the gospel and their fore reject the Holy Spirit you cant be indwelt by the Holy Spirit if you refuse to accept what it is telling you about Jesus.

  • eddie santana

    There’s no misapplying anything. Romans talks about “being grafted in.” That means that Christians becomes God’s favs, just like the Jewish people. Yet God was constantly warning “his favs” that if they don’t act right, they won’t inherit eternal life. So favs or not, Christian or not, no free ride even if you’re a born again fav. You have to endure to the end.

    • Tracy

      @eddie santana,
      Just think what happened after you accepted Jesus Christ into you life. You were saved, you were born again, from above. You are a new creation, and because of this He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell in you. Just think about it……you simply cannot be the same old person. Doesn’t mean you don’t sin, but everything is different, our thoughts, total outlook on life, pleasing Him becomes more important, wanting to tell others about Jesus, etc., etc. Once you’re saved that never leaves you, right? Then you are sealed.

  • eddie santana

    I tell the OSAS-ers what Festus told Paul, too much learning has made you mad. lol.

  • After our debt has been paid and we accept that we are now free, WHAT NEXT. Why do we live a lifetime in this world? The thief on the cross was saved the same day and died the same day or next. he was promise by Jesus to be in paradise . He had no works. No fruit of the spirit. Look at 1Cor3v1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. .
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. .
    3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    Paul said these christians were still carnal, he call them babies in Christ.
    Now look at Ephesians 4v13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: .
    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; .
    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
    Notice v14 . This is what so many are failing to do”GROW UP” they are still being toss to and fro by every kind of doctrine.

    .

    • AndrewA

      I said what came next after you accept in the analogy about who is paying debt specificity I talked about it above that.

      That after faith and believing in Jesus and his payment on the cross you are then indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit as I stated in my explanation on Romans ch 8 allows you to began to walk and follow after things of the Spirit. (please read that to see the scripture references and what was said.)

      Thus you are changed made a new being no longer looking after things of the flesh but things of the Spirit.

      What Paul is talking about with milk and meat is he is first explaining he kept things simple for they were young in their relationship with God and not ready to understand the full aspects of God and this is true for all Christians. We start off with a basic understanding and in the processes of Following after the Spirit we are changed and made more like Christ it is not in instantaneous processes but one that takes place over the course of your life. The Spirit helps us and shapes us to be more Christ Like. This will not completely do away with sin for at this moment we still have bodies of flesh that contain the taint of sin. The Holy spirit has renewed for now are spirit and sealed us until redemption. Jesus later on the day of Redemption well also Renew are bodies perfecting us and cleansing us fully of all sin.

      The most important aspect you need to understand is once indwelt by the Holy Spirit you are sealed until the day Jesus redeems your body and changes you into the uncorrupted form that is talked about with Paul’s writing on being caught up to Jesus.

      On the criminal on the cross. He was never indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not even come onto the apostles and followers of Jesus until the day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit and its indwelling of people was a mystery before that. It changes the interaction of people with God and we have a different relationship with him due to being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

      People in the past were saved on their faith and righteousness to God. Paul talks about in Romans Abraham Rightness came from faith not actions. The Criminal’s faith in Jesus being the Messiah and Son of God was rewarded to him with Righteousness similar to Abraham thus he got to be with Jesus in Paradise. We are saved by are faith and Belief in Jesus payment on the Cross this faith is rewarded with righteousness and a co inheritance with Jesus and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us, to help and comfort us which Paul again talks about in Romans ch 8.

      • Stu

        “The key point of the message is all the world is a servant to God.”
        You would have to support that statement based on the text of the passage itself which I do not see. You would have to explain to me how “little flock” pertains to “all the world” instead of Jesus’ term of endearment reserved exclusively for those who follow him. You would have to explain how all the world is a servant when we know that all the world are not even wise and faithful to Him in the first place. We know that all the world does not do God’s will. The only people in the world capable of following God’s will are those who are regenerated. Those in the world who are not His are simply incapable of doing the master’s will since they remain in the flesh and can only sin. The whole point of this passage is what happens to servants/believers who don’t do God’s will.
        Lastly, since you refer to Rom 8, how do you deal with verses 12-13?

        • Stu

          Sorry Andrew – did not see your previous reply regarding Rom. 8. You wrote: “You see that Paul’s warning of flesh is death does not apply to a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit you need look no further then the first 3 verses of chapter 8.”

          My response is depending which Bible translation one uses, v.1 has an additional clause which reads: “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Furthermore this is confirmed in v.4 which you left out: “that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. So the requirements of the law are only fulfilled by those who don’t walk according to the flesh but by the Spirit. A pertinent question is can and do Christians walk according to flesh – do they have that choice? Of course they do as we face choices to sin or not every day. “I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” (Gal 5:15-18). Paul states “IF” you are led by the Spirit which makes this a conditional statement meaning the possibility of believers not being led by the Spirit. So therefore while it is certainly true that when one is regenerated, one is indwelt by the Spirit, it does not automatically entail that one will “follow” or be “led by the Spirit” and that’s where I think you confuse the two.
          You wrote:
          “Paul says clearly before we even get to verse 12 and 13 that if the Spirit of God dwells in you you are not in the flesh and what he is going to say in verse 12 and 13 does not apply to a person indwelt by the Holy Spirit.”
          How would you counter this explanation which I previously wrote?
          “So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
          Paul’s warning is a somber one as these verses describe the potential death of born-again believers, referred to as the BROTHERS/BRETHREN in v. 12. If this death were not a real possibility, the warning would be nonsensical. We also know that this warning pertains to spiritual death – not physical death – because everyone dies physically irrespective of how we live our lives. Moreover, one must have spiritual life in order to be in danger of spiritual death. You cannot threaten a spiritually dead person with spiritual death. Such a person is already dead. Therefore, it must be concluded that these are regenerate brethren who are being warned of dying. Also note that this verse is conditional – not unconditional – as indicated by the word “if.” IF believers walk according to the flesh = they will die. IF believers walk according to the Spirit = they will live. Simple as that. Verse 13 CANNOT BE SAID to apply to unbelievers because only believers have the choice as to whether to walk according to the Spirit or according to the flesh. Unregenerate persons have no such choice; are incapable of walking according to the Spirit and can only walk according to the flesh – there is no “if” involved. Thus, it stands to reason that Paul’s warning of spiritual death; i.e. eternal separation from God is exclusively directed to Christians who live in rebellion and knowingly engage in habitual sin.

          Finally, Rom 8:25-39 which you refer to actually states the opposite of what you believe. It is true that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. But what does “nothing” refer to? The verse itself defines nothing as “tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword.” Nothing does not include ongoing unrepentant habitual sin which does separate us from the love of Christ. To include sin in this verse is to read it into the verse something which it does not say.

          Rom 8:30 is a favorite among those who believe in eternal security as they claim this verse demonstrates an unbreakable golden chain of redemption. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” They presume that since none of the links in this chain can be broken off from one another, our salvation is assured since whom God predestines, he will also call, justify and ultimately glorify. Sounds like Paul is making a fool-proof argument here doesn’t it? However, if it can be demonstrated that any of these “links” can be broken off from one another, then logically our salvation is not secure. One need look no further than Gal 1:6-7 – “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. The word “called” here is the same word used in Rom 8:30. Yet, despite being called, those Galatian believers still turned away and deserted Christ. This verse demonstrates that ust because one is called in Rom 8:30 does not automatically entail that one will be glorified. Therefore I submit that the text of Rom 8 actually makes a very strong case for conditional security rather than unconditional security.

          • AndrewA

            To Stu: I figured you had missed or haven’t read what I said at the time it is no big deal.

            Here is an answer to what have just said. It is light on scripture references because I am mostly restating stuff from what I was talking about in Ephesians and Romans. Refer to my cites of the books for understanding of what I am saying.

            If you see a specific point you feel isn’t properly cited simply point it out and I will work to give you the scriptural reference.

            You have not mentioned the following verse to verse 4 which proves the very point I made in one sentence.

            5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

            A born again is after the Spirit and that which is after the Spirit looks to the things after the Spirit not the flesh. This confirms what I am saying if you are following the Spirit you are looking to the Spirit. This chapter is not a warning of falling to the flesh it is a statement that if you are after the Flesh you are not saved. Saved people look to the Spirit and things of God unsaved look to the flesh that is what Paul’s is explaining in this chapter it is his main over arching point. It is mirror to a statement about don’t look for the riches of the earth and instead work towards the riches of Heaven.

            On choice to follow the Spirit

            The choice was given before you accepted Jesus. In accepting his payment you stated I no longer wish to live after the flesh I want to Live after the Spirit and be with God. That is where the choice came in.

            It is only conditional to be lead by the Spirit if you fail to take into account what it means to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I showed earlier in a post to you. Once you believe then comes the Holy Spirit and then you are being lead by the Holy Spirit once it is indwelt in you.

            You know due to the Spirit Jesus is the Son of God. As Jesus told Peter no one could of told you this truth save for the Holy Spirit. Once you believe The Holy Spirit comes and from that Point you Know truth. You cant reject a known force that is at work in your heart. It is like me trying to reject the force of Gravity that pulls me to the ground once it has a hold on you it has a hold on you. Once you accept the Holy Spirit it becomes a force that moves through you and leads you. It is a force that shapes you renewing your spirit and making you have a desire to work towards the Will of God.

            This is what Paul calls “circumcision of the heart.”

        • AndrewA

          I forgot to answer you questions in this.

          Ok that statement is simple. If what I said is not true that the created are not meant serve and worship the Creator then Satan did nothing wrong in trying to elevate his throne above God. It is a fundamental rejection of God to try and replace him. If you do not worship and serve God then you Worship and serve self which is a rejection of God.

          The perfect Harmony of Creation is to serve and worship God. This is undeniable of what perfection is. It is all living in harmony worshiping and following the Will of God.

          Little flock pertains to the people around him at that time of his speaking and the Jewish people and all who might believe during the time he is speaking about. For the record it is not yet that time so the people he is speaking of might not even be born and around yet. However the message of looking to the Messiah is a message to all the world. However the subject is clearly to the Jewish people he was talking to primarily the Jewish people that will be around during the time of Jacob’s trouble. This is a time when 2 thirds of the Jewish people will be killed and only a third will be saved. We see this by how he spoke about fleeing Jerusalem that everything about his 2nd coming he talked about in Mathew, Mark, Luke and John was centered around a Jewish audience. Both who he was warning in the Future and who he was talking to at the time.

          • Stu

            “Ok that statement is simple. If what I said is not true that the created are not meant serve and worship the Creator then Satan did nothing wrong in trying to elevate his throne above God. It is a fundamental rejection of God to try and replace him. If you do not worship and serve God then you Worship and serve self which is a rejection of God.”

            I don’t quite understand the point you are making. Yes were were created to serve and worship God. But the main sticking point is are we WILLING to do so? Did not Satan as a created being worship and also have a relationship with God? Yet by his will, he rejected that relationship and chose to rebel and sin against God. Don’t you believe we as humans have the same choice also. We enter a relationship with the living God when we trust in Christ as our Savior but then like Satan we can choose to abide in that relationship OR rebel in our disobedience. The whole Bible has to do with faithfulness or unfaithfulness to God and the consequences thereof. Israel had a relationship with God but they rejected it because of their disobedience. Believers are not immune to the same consequences that can potentially result in spiritual death.
            As far as the little flock reference goes it appears that you are restating your original premise to which I responded and you have not offered a counterpoint to that response. Same thing with Rom 8.

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  • Alicia

    I have been saved for 42 yrs. & in all those years I have never heard so many crazy things as I am hearing now!
    If you don’t believe in the Rapture you will not get taken in the Rapture.
    You have to make yourself worthy enough to go in the Rapture.
    Yes, you can lose your salvation, & on & on!
    All lies and not Biblical.

    • Agree 100%.

    • Stu

      If you don’t believe in the rapture it doesn’t entail that one won’t get taken in the rapture. As long as one continues to believe, perseveres and is ready when the thief comes, (worthy using your words) then one is taken whether at the rapture or at His second coming. The rapture is never a qualification for salvation.

  • eddie santana

    “According to Revelation 3:5, a person’s name can never be blotted from the book of life…”

    The first part of that is “to those who overcome,” not including those who slack up or turn away from the Lord for whatever reason (which some say is impossible, but I’ve seen it happen.

    • If you are saved now, you have already overcome because He overcame at the cross and the empty tomb. “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.” 1 John 4:4 (KJV) It’s all because of Jesus, and not our works.

    • Brandon

      Well, can you show me some scripture that proves that our names can be blotted out of the book of life for ANY reason?????

  • reply to AndrewA—Christians are not waiting for the establishment of the Kingdom but the Lord to Call us to meet him and be fully made new and without sin in spirit and flesh. Are promise is to be in the Body of Christ.
    This is as elementary as most christians get. How much of the promises Jesus gave do they believe. Very few Andrew , Why is Jesus coming back? Since the saints are in heaven with him, what else do they expect, nothing. What were the promises given to Mary about Jesus.? From the above statement it appear that you have never read Revelation 19 or you dont believe it . Have you ever read Zech14. You dont believe this either. None of it is literal since you are not looking for the establishment of a Kingdom. Please do some research on the word,”KINGDOM” LITERAL. What about Revelation 20, sitting on thrones and reigning with Christ, no,no, you dont want any part of that . prefer to be idle. The promises of Rev 3v 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: .
    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    You dont want anything to do with this verse either.right. I could add some more scriptures, but i am awaiting your reply

    few

    • AndrewA

      Jesus comes back because he is the ruler of the Earth he proved it in that he is without sin and Died for the sins of the world redeeming man kind. He is the Kinsman redeemer of mankind the 2nd Adam. He is coming to fulfill the will of the Father which is to setup a kingdom that will never end and bring the world back to order.

      You are mistakenly putting words in my mouth. I never said the Kingdom will not happen. Or that God will not reign among the people from Aeon to Aeon.

      This is going to happen because it is part of God’s plan. What I said was as a born again what we expect to come next is Jesus to call all those alive and dead in him to him to never be away from him again. This is as Paul says is the blessed hope. Jesus is coming again he will fulfill everything God said he is to do.

      I also do not run away and want nothing to do with the word of God I want everything to do with the Word of God. Please do not put your words in my mouth and try to make statements for me that are not mine.

      The Kingdom will happen.

      Everything God has said will happen will in fact happen.

  • Stu

    @ Andrew – regarding Rom 8:5 so if I understand your argument this verse would read according to your view in parenthesis – “For they (unbelievers)that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they (believers) that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. These two clauses with parentheses are true statements. The big red flag with your argument though is that it fails to consider that believers do not always follow the Spirit as we have the choice whether to follow our flesh or the Spirit. You yourself wrote “if you are following the Spirit you are looking to the Spirit.” “If” indicates only two possibilities for believers – either they choose to follow the Spirit or they choose not to. If you deny this, do you believe that Christians cannot choose to sin and follow after the flesh?

    You wrote: “On choice to follow the Spirit
    The choice was given before you accepted Jesus. In accepting his payment you stated I no longer wish to live after the flesh I want to Live after the Spirit and be with God. That is where the choice came in.”

    Sorry but that is a false assumption because the Greek grammar doesn’t support your statement that “the choice was given before you accepted Jesus….That is where the choice came in.”
    The choice is actually given after you have accept Jesus. The NASB correctly renders this verse as: “for if you are LIVING according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are PUTTING to death the deeds of the body, you will live. The Greek word for live is “zete” which is a present tense verb denoting continuous action. Thus it refers to a person who is continuing to live according to the flesh and not living in sin as a past moment in time as you claim. If that were the case, the verb would have been rendered in the aorist tense which indicates a one-time action in the past. Likewise “thanatoute” is also a present tense verb rendered as “putting” to death the deeds of the body. Not as you claim the choice put to death the deeds of the body in the past when one first came to Christ. You must pay attention to the Greek verb tenses as they can significantly impact the whole meaning of a single verse or passage and you end up eisegeting the scriptures instead of exegeting it.

    • AndrewA

      Paul says believers do not follow the flesh but the Spirit. Not once does he declare followers follow the flesh. He says you are not of the Flesh in verse 9. He says people of the flesh follow the flesh. People of the Spirit follow the Spirit. It can not be stated any more literal.

      If you follow Christ you follow the Spirit if you follow the Spirit you are not of the flesh. Their is only one logical conclusion. If you are not following the Spirit but the Flesh you are not saved. That is what he says literally. That is the whole point of what he is saying in ch 8.

      Being saved is a present action until the day of redemption it is not a past action nor is it a eternal or habitual action as the seal is removed when Jesus calls us to him and remakes are flesh to be to be without sin. The only correct tense to describe being sealed at present is a present tense.

      If it were past then you used to be saved but weren’t now.

      If it were future it would be you are going to be saved but not yet.

      If you are saved until the day of redemption it would be a present action of being sealed that has not ended yet but well.

      so Paul has to use a present tense form of the word to be true to what he is saying. That you are sealed now and will be until the day of Redemption. That is a present action for the born again reading his letter. The are presently saved by faith and the baptism of the holy Spirit and will be sealed until the day of redemption.

  • AndrewA

    Stu: My points was not countered by what you said I restated in hopes you could see why it was not countered.

    Adam started out perfect and rejected God since then all his descendents that is us have fallen victim to the same rejection which is ingrained in are very flesh, Spirit and Soul. The choice now is do we continue to reject or accept. We are by default damned and in rejection of God we have to choose to not be.

    When you choose to accept your spirit is renwed by being baptized by the Holy Spirit. We now wait for are Body to be renewed by Jesus when he calls us to him hence the seal until the day of redemption.

    Once you accept being indwelt the Holy Spirit moves you in a way to please and work in favor of God. You are circumcised of the Heart. The Holy spirit while indwelling is a force that draws us to follow after the things of Spirit and to move us away from desires of the Flesh. He is a helper. When we are with the Holy Spirit are faith is confirmed and we desire to be with God the idea of Rejecting him becomes unthinkable.

    Can you think of a reason to reject God? No born Again I have ever talked to can give me a reason why after being baptized of the Holy Spirit they would choose to move away from God not after everything they know about God to be true. Paul said it best when he said their was no other force that could separate us from God’s Love at the end of chapter 8 of Romans.

  • Stu

    “Paul says believers do not follow the flesh but the Spirit.”
    You have not answered my question so if you would kindly respond. Do you believe that Christians cannot choose to sin and follow after the flesh? Yes or no?

    Paul wrote this to believers:
    But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh [g]sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you [h]please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: [i]immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [j]factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:16-21

    Paul commands the Galatian believers to walk by the Spirit. If all believers always walked by the Spirit then why does Paul command believers to do it? There be no would be no basis for Paul to issue such a command if all believers always did it. Furthermore, Paul did not write if you are in the Spirit which would reference the indwelt Spirit; he wrote if you are LED by the Spirit which refers to obedience to the Spirit. Only believers, not unbelievers; can be said to be led by the Spirit. Do you dispute this fact? So it is apparent that Paul is writing to believers not unbelievers and warns those believers that those who practice such things WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. If you dispute that the kingdom of God does not refer to salvation then I would remind you that in Matt 19:16 the rich young ruler asked Jesus “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have ETERNAL LIFE?” In v.23-24 Jesus answers and says it is hard for a rich man to enter the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN/GOD. It’s obvious that Jesus is equating the two terms here.

    You are correct in writing: “If you are not following the Spirit but the Flesh you are not saved. That is what he says literally. That is the whole point of what he is saying in ch 8.”
    Problem in your argument is no where in Rom 8 does Paul talk about being sealed. So based on your argument because one is sealed, one can go on sinning and follow the flesh and still be saved? I find that hard to believe. Wouldn’t you also say that a person who is predestined, called and justified in Rom 8:30 is no doubt sealed? According to your view, you have no choice but to answer in the affirmative. Yet as I have already pointed out Gal 1:6 Paul identifies those Galatian believers who were called, yet ended up deserting Christ. Since they were called, they were sealed and yet they ended up choosing to follow another gospel. Therefore being sealed in itself does not guarantee our salvation. You have simply not reconciled this discrepancy with your view.

    • AndrewA

      Paul says in other epistles you are sealed until redemption. We are told that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. If all his epistles are correct I can use that as a reference on how long we are sealed correct?

      To Qoute from the Article:
      “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)
      “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” Ephesians 4:30 (KJV)
      “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.” 2 Corinthians 1:20-22 (KJV)

      So if Paul in other Epistle says Sealed by the Spirit and that it is sealed until redemption that makes it clear on what I mean about sealed doesn’t it?

      Romans 8 talks about what It means to be baptized by the Holy Spirit how it is walking in the Spirit and what it means to be indwelt by God. How it is different from are default of being of the flesh which is looking for the flesh and that is death. Where as being of the Spirit and looking for the Spirit is life.

      You will sin but it is the last thing you want to do. The Holy Spirit in you will be grieved and you will grieve your sins. When you Sin how does it make you feel once you are indwelt of the Holy Spirit? You are ashmed you wish for nothing but to take it back, but you know you cant you can only beg for forgiveness and strive to do better and cry out to God for help and humble yourself before him.

      It is a struggle for us with a renewed Spirit to live in the flesh that still has sin we know it is wrong and it is a constant struggle of are spirit to overcome. That is why Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit to help us with are state. The Holy Spirit is are Helper and comforter and advocate to help us deal with are sin in the flesh. Are seal that keeps are spirit renewed until the time Jesus fixes the sin in are body.

      Paul explains this in Romans 8 we are no longer seeking after flesh but Spirit. Committing sin will cause the believer great shame and desire of repentance for they know they are grieving God and the Holy Spirit in you makes it very loud and clear you are grieving God. A born again is actively seeking a better relationship not a worse they are not looking to sin more but to sin less. If you are looking to Sin more then you seek after the Flesh and are not saved. This is what is after all stated in Romans 8 those who seek after flesh will find death.

      So if people are looking to the Flesh Paul is warning them that such things is not of God and you cant be saved if you are looking for the flesh it is a sign that you have not the Spirit of God and therefore are not in fact saved. For as he said in Romans 8 verse 16

      16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

      If you have the Holy Spirit it bears witness with yours proving you are child of God-breathed

      Then verse 17 says.
      17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

      This means you are part of the Body of Christ. Having the Holy Spirit in you is proof of salvation and being of Christ. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is the one baptism Paul speaks of and that is what makes you a christian.

      For a point I want demonstrate something:
      Notice no one argued with Peter in acts when he said the Roman centurion and his family started speaking in tongues and was baptized by the Holy Spirit they instantly acknowledged him as saved and praised God they never thought about him slipping away from God but forever being part of the Fellowship regardless of the Fact he was a Gentile and before that gave Peter trouble for just going into his house.

      On your point of the Kingdom of God. The Body of Christ is part of the Kingdom of God but it is not all of the Kingdom of God. Also the man Jesus spoke to and what Jesus Taught in Mathew, Mark, Luke and John was before his death on the Cross. Jesus had yet to pay the sin price. We were under a different concept of salvation. We have always been saved in faith but at different times man has to have faith in different aspects to be saved.

      Adam and Eve had to have faith that God would send them a redeemer.

      Abraham had to believe in Gods Promises and demonstrate his trust in that the Lord would Provide for him.

      Jews under Mosaic Law had to obey the Laws God gave them and trust that He would send a Messiah to rule the kingdom. Who would rule with an Iron scepter and break the kingdoms of men and bring everyone under the rule of God. That the Messiah would save them and make Israel the world Power. This is what Jesus was doing in his ministry presenting himself as the Messiah and telling the Jews it was time for them to accept their savor. When they rejected him Jesus died and presented himself as a sin sacrifice for the Sin of the world fulfilling God’s promise to Adam and Eve of a savor. Fulfilling a promise to Abraham that from his seed would come redemption of the world. Also a prophecy that the Jews would kill their Messiah.

      After his death and continued rejection by the Jewish nation Jesus raised Paul up to an Apostle and had him go the Gentiles. The Age of Grace started. Were if you confess Jesus came and died for you sins you become sealed being baptized with the Holy Spirit. At the fullness of this time Jesus will call all alive and dead in him to him and cleanse them of sin.

      Then it becomes time for People to believe once again in the coming Messiah who well take possession of the Earth. In that time the prophecy of Zachariah chapter 12 well be fulfilled.

      7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
      8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
      9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
      10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
      11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
      12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
      13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
      14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

      Their is a long plan God has made from are perspective and He is fulfilling everything he said he would. You must understand when we talk about people being saved that Jews and Gentiles Pre Crucifixion were saved different from us post Crucifixion. It may of required faith in both cases but the faith was of different things.

    • AndrewA

      Because I missed your yes or no sorry about that. However I thought I made it rather self explanatory on the mater.

      The answer is No.

      Once you are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit you no longer seek after the flesh. You are no longer of the Flesh but of the Spirit. That is what Paul said so the answer has to be no.

      Does that mean we Christians don’t sin? No it does not. You can still sin. The spirit has been renewed but the body at this times still posses sin from your father. So it is possible for a Christian to sin and stumble. It grieves the Holy Spirit and the sinner but God forgives us for the Holy Spirit witnesses to us and Jesus speaks on are behalf. Again a believer strives to follow the Holy Spirit and live with as little sin as they can. One day Jesus will give us new bodies without sin but that has not happened yet.

      • AndrewA

        My answer failed to include the whole stament.

        The answer is No: Should of read

        The answer is No you cannot choose to go after the flesh once sealed by the Holy Spirit. I have never met anyone who can tell me one reason why they as a born again would choose to follow after the flesh.

        If you think we can then please tell me why you would reject God and go after the flesh?

        Why would you choose a life of sin after finding Jesus?

        A born again knows what God has said is true because the Spirit has confirmed the truth of God in them so can a born again told by the spirit Jesus is the son of God who died for are sins really reject that truth once it takes root in their heart?

        • Stu

          You wrote: Can you think of a reason to reject God?
          Yup off the top my head I can easily think of a few reasons why believers would reject God. They do so to follow other “idols” in life. They do it to follow other gospels. They do it to satisfy desires and lusts in life. They do when facing trials in life and don’t persevere. They do it when threatened with death and reject martyrdom. I’m sure you have read the OT which is replete with all kinds of examples on why God’s chosen people chose to disobey and reject God so no need to elaborate on that.

          “Why would you choose a life of sin after finding Jesus?”
          Because people have the free will to decide how to live after they come to Christ. The carnal man just doesn’t give up and disappear when we come to Christ; we have the daily choice whether to yield to our flesh or yield to the Spirit. It is a battle. As a practical example why do so many Christians view pornography? Are they not rejecting God and choosing to sin? Would your answer be that they are not saved to begin with? If that’s the case then there are a whole lot of people in our churches who are not really Christians. One survey conducted over the past five years revealed that 68 percent of Christian men and 50 percent of pastors view pornography regularly. Wouldn’t you say they are practicing sin? Yet you claim that “you cannot choose to go after the flesh once sealed by the Holy Spirit.” Realistically, I don’t think your claim is a valid one either scripturally or by practical observation. Based on that, half of the pastors who occupy our pulpits in America must not really be Christians. Or, would you say they are still Christians since they are “sealed by the Spirit until redemption?” If that’s the case then a Christian might as well continue to view pornography since they are sealed and saved. That amounts to antinomianism which I don’t think you subscribe to but it is the logical end result of your view point.

          As I wrote earlier, based on your view, you would have to concede that a person who is predestined by God, called, justified and eventually gloried (Rom 8:30) is also by definition a person who is sealed by God. Yet as I already showed in Gal 1:6, Paul marveled that some Galatians who were “called” were abandoning the gospel to follow another gospel. Paul’s own testimony does not fit with your view of being sealed since turning to follow another gospel does not result in redemption so this is something that you need to reconcile.

          • AndrewA

            I didn’t ask why Believers would reject God.

            I asked why would you Reject God?

            I asked if their was anything that would cause You to reject what you know and if so what would that be?

            I am not looking for why you think believers would reject God I want to know if their is any reason you would and if so why.

          • AndrewA

            Also on pornography and sin I never said you cant sin when sealed in in fact I said the opposite.

            This is about half of what I said about Christians and sin:
            Does that mean we Christians don’t sin? No it does not. You can still sin. The spirit has been renewed but the body at this times still posses sin from your father. So it is possible for a Christian to sin and stumble.

            But to prove my point read Romans ch 7 verse 14-25 Paul makes an admittance he still sins and is carnal. Is Paul damned?

            14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

            15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

            16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

            17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

            18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

            19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

            20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

            21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

            22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

            23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

            24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

            25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

            By your logic Paul would be living after the flesh and be Damned. Living after the Spirit does not mean you wont sin. It means you are seeking God.

            Living after the Flesh means you have rejected God and are seeking after the self.

          • Inasmuch As

            Stu wrote:

            “You wrote: Can you think of a reason to reject God?

            Yup off the top my head I can easily think of a few reasons why believers would reject God. They do so to follow other “idols” in life. They do it to follow other gospels. They do it to satisfy desires and lusts in life. They do when facing trials in life and don’t persevere. They do it when threatened with death and reject martyrdom. I’m sure you have read the OT which is replete with all kinds of examples on why God’s chosen people chose to disobey and reject God so no need to elaborate on that. …”

            Thank you, Stu, for writing this. Globalist propaganda has infected TV news and dramas and the churches to teach wrongly that one can deny Christ by converting to Islam or whatever and still go to Heaven because they say no one can withstand torture. Well, maybe not but Christians of old learned by example how to die well. The propaganda is all a lie. I’ve been concerned that too many believe that.

            When I see how many have been deceived into believing OSAS, it is wonderful that you posted the above paragraph so some have the opportunity to learn the truth.

            Every Christian should read Fox’s Book of Martyrs and see the manner in which many died rather than deny Christ as they were murdered by the Catholics.

            Fox’s Book of Martyrs
            http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

  • Dan
  • Stu

    Andrew, in response to your question:
    “I am not looking for why you think believers would reject God I want to know if their is any reason you would and if so why.”

    I have lived a few decades as a Christian and know that except for the grace of God, there go I. In other words, I am capable of anything which includes habitual sinning – been there; done that. As I deal with the sin in my life and overcome it by the grace of God, I go through the process of being sanctified. In the days in which we as Christians live, martyrdom is a distinct possibility in my opinion. Do you have the utmost confidence that if faced with such a situation you will never deny Christ if threatened with a gun or sword at your head. If you answer in the affirmative, I congratulate you on your supreme confidence in spite of not knowing how things will transpire in the future. I just try to keep trusting in God and hope to fight the good fight and finish the race set before me.

    You wrote:
    “Does that mean we Christians don’t sin? No it does not. You can still sin. The spirit has been renewed but the body at this times still posses sin from your father. So it is possible for a Christian to sin and stumble.”

    I have been attempting to point out the fundamental flaw in your view but you either don’t understand it or you overlook it. Correct me if I’m wrong but you believe.
    1. Christians are sealed until redemption.
    2. Christians sin and stumble.
    The logical conclusion of your premises is that no matter how little or how much Christians sin, they are still saved because they are sealed.
    If you claim that there is a limit to sinning if one is to inherit salvation then you have to admit that a Christian is not sealed until redemption, as too much sinning disqualifies one from eternal life. Your only other option is to claim that such people were never saved in the first place. In other words, they was never predestined, called and justified and subsequently won’t be glorified according to Rom 8:30. To be called is to be sealed. However as I pointed out earlier Gal 1:6 states that people can be “called” but still fail to persevere and sin by turning to another gospel according to Paul. Your view contradicts with Paul’s own testimony that demonstrates that a person who is called and sealed can still abandon the gospel to follow another gospel. So have to somehow reconcile this with your view.

    “By your logic Paul would be living after the flesh and be Damned. Living after the Spirit does not mean you wont sin. It means you are seeking God.”
    You have postulated a moot argument. While Paul did admit to sinning no where in the entirety of the NT does it say that he lived after the flesh – in other words practiced sin. The opposite is true as we know that he strove to live a sanctified and holy life. However IF Paul did live a life of seeking after the flesh he would have been damned but we know such was not the case by his example that he set for us. If Paul did practice sinning, he would be guilty of lawlessness for “EVERYONE who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness” (1 Jn 3:4). Lawlessness is separation from God.

    • AndrewA

      Stu,

      My Point on Paul was that if we go by what you said living in the Flesh is, Paul would be self admitting to living in the Flesh. This is clearly not the case he is living after the Spirit.

      Now the issue at the moment is you are not actually understanding what my point or position is let me re state in summary because we have walked though a lot of scripture and both gave a lot of points and counter points.

      1. Christians are sealed.

      We, Christians, are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Being sealed by the Holy spirit renews and changes your spiritual outlook as we used to be dead in spirit now we are alive in spirit. Before this you lived after flesh by default we live after flesh because we are dead in sin. Once sealed by the Spirit in Christ the Spirit moves you to live after the Spirit.

      2. Christians can still sin.
      This is not that we have permission to sin. It is a fact we still sin.

      Why? because are body is still a corrupted sin filled body. Jesus has redeemed us on the Cross the Holy Spirit has sealed us and given us a living spirit again. But are body the flesh is still corrupted by sin. Jesus on the day of redemption will change are bodies and remove the corruption of Sin. This is why I quoted Romans ch 7 Paul gave explanation how are bodies still have sin.

      3. Christians are fully saved when sealed. You do not want to sin as a christian Your spirit is not he same as one who is not sealed. You don’t desire to sin and seek after flesh you desire Spirit and a relationship with God. This is the power of the Holy Spirit living in you. When you believe with all your Heart and Soul the Spirit changes your Heart and Soul and makes you no longer seek a life of sin but instead a life after God. This is the Power of God and we have no control over it.

      You are failing to account for the power of Christ to change your heart. Which is what Happens when you accept him in you heart Jesus through the Holy Spirit changes your heart and starts moving it towards God. It is the opposite of God hardening your heart which is something he has done and will do again. If God can Harden Hearts in order to keep them from accepting him after being rejected then he also has the power to do the Opposite once you accept him. Which is to know him and move you to sin less.

      To Prove my point look at the Mark of the Beast. It is a seal into death. By choosing it you are sealed in the Devil and thus going to die and share his fate there is nothing you can do after that you have fully rejected in your heart God and instead are accepting the Devil. This is the Devils mockery of being sealed by the Holy Spirit and what Jesus spoke of in rejecting the Holy Spirit.

      If the Devil can permanently seal you with his mark onto him and death. Why cant Jesus the way to eternal life not seal you permanently into him and Life?

      Your position seems to imply the devil can permanently damn and kill with his seal while God is incapable of giving a permanent option for eternal life with his seal. Who is stronger God or the devil if the devil can seal you unto death why cant God seal you unto Life is the devil some how stronger then God?

      • Stu

        You simply don’t deal with the scriptures as you continue to not address my citation of Rom 8:30 and Gal 1:6 which appear to totally contradict your view. Respectfully, when I offer a counterpoint to your view but you don’t address it, how does repeating what you already wrote suffice as an answer? Therefore:
        1. Is a person who meets the criteria specified in Rom 8:30 sealed?
        2. Were the believers in Gal 1:6 whom Paul referred to as called, still sealed despite them turning away from the true gospel to follow other gospels?
        These two verses alone undermine your view that a believer is sealed until redemption. If you still think they are, then please explain.

        “If the Devil can permanently seal you with his mark onto him and death. Why cant Jesus the way to eternal life not seal you permanently into him and Life?”

        1 Jn 3:7-8 directly answers your question due to the fact that we still maintain our own volition to choose whether to live a sanctified life or to practice a sinful life. “Little children, LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU. Whoever PRACTICES righteousness is RIGHTEOUS, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a PRACTICE OF SINNING is of the DEVIL, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
        If a child of God PRACTICES righteousness, lives a sanctified life; he or she is righteous and remains a child of God. If a child of God chooses to practice sinning, then he or she is of the Devil. So it is obvious that how Christians choose to live their lives – in obedience or rebellion determines their salvific state. Even a die-hard Calvinist would give you the same answer as mine – because believers must persevere. Those who persevere prove that they were called. The book of Revelation is replete with warnings to the 7 churches warning that the saints must persevere and if they do they are the overcomers who are dressed in white for they have washed their garments.

        Since you brought up the mark of the beast, for the sake of argument let me ask you a direct question. Would you take the mark of the beast if the choice was presented to You? Tell me what would happen if you did and if you did would you still be sealed?

        • AndrewA

          I addressed Romans chapter 8 to you almost every time I responded. The point of Romans chapter 8 is Paul demonstrating to the Reader what it means to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You keep failing to understand that. I have explained it multiple times and cited multiple verse you are just not taking the whole context of the Chapter and applying it. You are instead looking at individual verses and drawing your own conclusion.
          A person who believes with all the Heart and Soul that Jesus died for their sins is Saved that is what Paul said so if they believe what I just said they are sealed.
          Romans ch 10 verse 8-9
          8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
          9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

          If the People in Galatians were not still sealed he would not of used the opening verse he did in Galatians chaoter 1 verse 1-5 and verse 9:
          1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
          2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
          3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
          4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
          5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
          He says in verse 3 Grace be to you from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ. That means he still considers them saved as of writing. Jesus is their Lord as much as Paul’s and Jesus wishes them Grace. If you want to say they are not saved then argue with Paul who wrote that.
          Also Read this verse:
          9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
          Notice he didn’t curse the Galatians but the preacher who was spreading lies. He still considered the Galatians saved.

          On your reference to John you are still failing to recognize the power of Christ to change a christain’s heart. My position on being sealed is God changes are hearts so serve him. If he can harden hearts then he can Also bring Hearts into Perfect love and acceptance of God. This is what God does for a Born Again.
          You asked:
          “Would you take the mark of the beast if the choice was presented to You? Tell me what would happen if you did and if you did would you still be sealed?”
          You ask an impossible question. To take the mark is to reject God in my heart. I have fully accepted God into my Heart and Love him with all my mind, heart and soul. I could no more reject him then rip my heart and soul from my body. So no it is physically and spiritually impossible for me to take the mark. I would die before I reject God who dwells in me.
          You again have failed to understand.
          If the mark is a permanent damming of the spirit, soul, and body. As well as permanent rejection of God in your heart.
          Then accepting and being sealed in Christ is a permanent salvation of the spirit, soul and body. As well as permanent acceptance of God.
          As I said we universally agree you are damned if you take the Mark of the Beast. So the Devil has the power to damn you if you accept his seal and nothing more can be done.

          Why then is it so hard to understand that God has the power to Guarantee you life if you accept his seal and that nothing more can be done?
          Jesus is greater then death He after all overcame the grave. So then to all who accept and believe in him the same is given. This again is what Paul also said in Romans chapter 8 when he called all believers co inheritors with Christ.

  • Stu

    Andrew – The difference in our interpretation of Rom 8 is that you think the warning passages in Rom 8 are written to unbelievers so that Paul is writing to a mixed audience – those who are saved and sealed; and those who are not saved and sealed. The problem is no where that I’m aware in the NT does Paul address his comments to non-Christians. His letters were specifically addressed to the saints in the churches; never unbelievers.
    In spite of that, even if I adopted your perspective your interpretation of Rom 8:13 would still not make sense for it would read according to your view: “For if you [unbelievers] live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you [believers] put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
    First of it is impossible for unbelievers to not live according to the flesh, therefore it would be ridiculous for Paul to write such a statement. He would never employ the word “if.” Unbelievers can ONLY live according to the flesh – so it is not even a matter of IF. If Paul were referencing unbelievers, he would have instead used the word “since” but such is not the case so your interpretation clearly does not fit the text.

    I don’t see anywhere in all of your replies which address Rom 8:30 Why is that? One has to account for all of the scriptures in forming one’s view. So I’ll ask again – Is a person who meets the criteria specified in Rom 8:30 sealed? Yes or no? If you answer yes then you would have to agree that being called means an unbreakable seal. That’s why I led you to Gal 1:6 where despite being called, the Galatian believers turned to follow other gospels. How ironic that your citation of the verses in Galatians only proves my point as yes Paul is really addressing true believers – who were called. Yet despite being called/sealed they still turned away.

    You wrote:
    “9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
    Notice he didn’t curse the Galatians but the preacher who was spreading lies. He still considered the Galatians saved.”
    Of course the preacher wasn’t saved but your argument in no way excuses the Galatians who believed him. How is that possible that you condemn the preacher but not those who turned to follow another gospel? Answer me if you think a believer who believes in the gospel turns and follows another gospel e.g. Buddhism – is he still saved? Thus, your conclusion that the Galatians were still saved is hard to fathom.

    As for the mark of the beast, although you say you would not take it, what would happen if you did? For that matter, what would happen to another genuine, regenerated, predestined, called and justified Christian if he/she took the mark of the beast? Is that Christian still saved and sealed? Direct answers to my questions would be appreciated; otherwise we can cordially agree to disagree which would be perfectly fine also, lest we keep going in circles.

    • AndrewA

      Problem is I don’t disagree with you its not a mixed audience. He is explaining what is like to live after the Spirit which is to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. As well as what it is like to not live after the Spirit which is to liver after flesh. He was explaining to the readers there is a difference how one thing will be death and the other life. This I have now told you at least 4 times.

      Again Paul in 12 and 13 is explaining what living after the flesh is to the readers so he can then explain in the following verse what living after the Spirit is. He made this very clear in verse 9 when he told the readers you are not living after the flesh but the spirit.

      This is very much how Paul explains things. He will tell you what it is like for example to live after the Law and then tell you how instead it is to live after Grace. You need to keep in mind this is how Paul generally frames his discussions in the Epistles.

      He is describing both aspects so he can make the differences clear to the reader.

      Rom 8:19-30
      29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
      30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

      If God called them and Justified and glorified them seems they are saved right? I don’t see any issue with what I have said and this verse. It does not contradict anything I am saying. Only supporting what I have said.

      Paul is the one who did not declare them damned. He still said they had Grace in Galatians. It is not me that has to argue they are not saved. As I told you my position is once sealed by God you are saved. Its you that has to show were Paul says they are not saved.

      Nor is sinning a sign they are not saved for I showed you how Paul says those sealed in Christ will still sin because sin is still in their bodies until the day the Lord gives them Bodies that have no sin.

      You are the one who has to prove otherwise not me.

      On the mark I can not take it. It is impossible physically and spiritually. One day in my life I had a very real life or death experience before I lost consciousness the last thought that went through my mind is “well this is it I have done everything I can I go to you Lord Jesus.” Yet some how I regained consciousness shortly after that and for some reason God decided not to call me to him in that moment I was 100% ready but my time had not come.

      When I willingly gave myself over like that when I believed I had nothing left in this world but God death no longer can give me fear or any real pause. I know the truth of what happens when I die I know who I am going to.

      Also I personally don’t feel you should be insinuating I am not directly answering your questions. I have in fact given you an honest and direct response to every Question you have asked me so far.

      It is not my fault your question on a christian taking the mark is impossible to be answered.

      It is just not a possibility God the Father see’s Christians as if the are Jesus. It is like asking what would happen if Jesus took the mark it just can’t happen. We saw his answer when the Devil made him that very offer in the Desert he told him to get away from him.

      So I can say to you with 100% certainty I can not take the mark I will die before that could happen. I have already given everything I have to the Lord. I know what the mark represents it is a rejection of God I can not reject God it is spiritually and physically impossible for me now.

      It is the same as asking someone who took the mark Can you become indwelt by the Holy Spirit and sealed in the name of God?

      The answer is no they cant. God declared that in revelation. A person who takes the mark cant be sealed by God and instead they share the fate of the Beasts and ultimately Satan.

      So a person sealed by God cant take the mark for they are sealed and counted to the fate of Jesus the two seals are mutually exclusive and can not exist in the same being.

  • Stu

    “Again Paul in 12 and 13 is explaining what living after the flesh is to the readers so he can then explain in the following verse what living after the Spirit is. He made this very clear in verse 9 when he told the readers you are not living after the flesh but the spirit.”

    Thanks for your clarification of Rom 8 as I thought you were making a distinction between unbelievers/believers. Since we agree, why does Paul say “IF” in both clauses of v.13? And what does “die” mean in the same verse?

    “If God called them and Justified and glorified them seems they are saved right? I don’t see any issue with what I have said and this verse. It does not contradict anything I am saying. Only supporting what I have said.”

    Yes the called are SAVED – moreover don’t forget also SEALED right? since you claim once saved they are sealed unto redemption. However this verse does not support what you believe because I showed in Gal 1:6 that believers despite being called turned away to follow another gospel. So logically since the called/sealed ones (believers)in Galatia turned away to follow another gospel, how can they still be possibly saved? You cannot say they were still saved. If you do, that would be like saying a Christian can turn away from the gospel of Christ, turn to follow the teaching of Buddhism instead and still remain saved and sealed. In this example is the Buddhist convert still sealed? Please explain how that is possible?

    “It is not my fault your question on a christian taking the mark is impossible to be answered.”

    Why is it not possible to be answered? If you claim that it is impossible for a saved person to take the mark, they why would this verse even exist? If it were only a hypothetical, why would the penalty be eternal torment? Sounds like a harsh punishment for something only hypothetical. If it is impossible for Christians to take the mark, then you need to explain why the warning verse is in there. If you say it only applies to unbelievers that is not what the verse says because Rev 14:9 says ANYONE who worships the beast and takes the mark on the forehead and hand….This includes Christians and that is why v.12 states “This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus.” In other words Christians must endure, hold on to their faith and not take the mark. The context of this passage clearly undermines your view.

    “It is just not a possibility God the Father see’s Christians as if the are Jesus. It is like asking what would happen if Jesus took the mark it just can’t happen. We saw his answer when the made him that very offer in the Desert he told him to get away from him.”

    Your reasoning is unsound. It was possible for Jesus to give in to the Devil. Why to you think it’s called the “temptation” of Jesus? If it were not possible at all for Jesus to be tempted, then the Devil would not have even bothered to tempt him. Christians who are sealed have the same choice – to give in to temptation and follow after the flesh or follow Jesus’ example and resist temptation as we still possess free will.

    • AndrewA

      If you want to apply the if in verse 13 you will also have to apply the ifs in verse 10 and 11

      Romans ch 8 verses 10-11
      10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

      11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

      If Christ be in you. That is sealed your body maybe dead but your Spirit is life. So if you have Chirst in you. You are not living after the Flesh but Spirit. Again you need to be taking the whole chapter into context not just 2 verses. Also this is why Christians can not take the mark Christ is in them You are asking a being that has God living in them to reject God. It is like asking Jesus to reject the Father.

      Again If Paul says they still have Grace in verse 3 then they still have Grace. I did not read anywhere in Galatians were Paul said they were damned or cursed. He only Cursed the false preacher.

      Again you have to show were they lost their seal not me.

      “Why is it not possible to be answered?”

      Colossians Chapter 3 verse 3-4

      3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

      4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

      Romans ch 8 verse 10
      10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

      Christians have Christ sealed in them and appear like Jesus to God the Father. Jesus is in are hearts. You can not reject that which is living inside you. It is like asking God to reject himself. Try to think about that. You are asking God to reject himself when you ask if a Christian can take the mark.

      As for can Jesus sin. No, it never was said it was possible for Jesus to accept the devil it would of defeated his purpose for coming so again no. It wasn’t proof Jesus could sin only that he wouldn’t. Jesus could never reject God the Father who sent him.

      It was foolish for the devil to try and only displays how great his arrogance and depravity is to even think he could convince God to reject himself.

      • Stu

        Sorry Andrew but I don’t have time to ride on the merry-go-round with you. I simply asked you to explain what the “ifs” and “die” mean in Rom 8:13 but you steadfastly refuse to respond. You could have chose to answer my question but instead of dealing with v.13 directly you defer to vss.10-11. The irony is that those two verses don’t support your argument. V.11 refers to our resurrection bodies whom God will quicken in the same way that Jesus was raised. In v.12 Therefore we ought not to live as debtors to the flesh….but IF you do live according to the flesh YOU WILL DIE (v.13).

        You wrote: You are not living after the Flesh but Spirit.” If what you claim is true, then why does Paul warn Christians that if they live according to the flesh they will die? Was Paul mistaken that Christians can’t live according to the flesh. Was Paul mistaken when he warned that the consequence of sowing to the flesh is spiritual death. Sorry but I will take Paul’s words over yours.

        “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

        I suppose this also applies to the Christian who decided later to follow Buddha too? I suppose this also applies to the Christian who despite being sealed keeps sinning without repentance? The key phrase is “who is our life.” Those who do not make Jesus the Lord of their lives and live for him are not guaranteed to appear with him in glory. You never explained how the Galatian believers who were called and sealed could turn away from the true gospel to follow another gospel which clearly contradicts your view. You can’t ignore scriptures that contradict your belief. You keep referring to proof texts which you think support your view but I have attempted to show that they actually don’t. At this point, I will respectfully disagree as we can agree to disagree. Thanks for the opportunity to have corresponded with you.

        • AndrewA

          Well the problem is 10 and 11 deals directly with what you are trying to say. It is not that I am avoiding verse 13 I am trying to show you that verse 9, 10, 11 and 12 are all apart of the same statement and when you take into account the previous verse what you are trying to say just is not supported by the text. I honestly am not expecting you to get it as you have mentioned I have said this before and showed it and you seem to still not get my point.

          Chapter 8 is just not saying what you think it does. If you don’t want to talk about it anymore its fine with me I will explain one last time in hopes you might understand.

          Romans ch 8 verse 9-13

          9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
          10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
          11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
          12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
          13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

          Verse 9 a declaration to the reader Christians are not being living after the flesh. It is is made at the start and should be kept in mind for the rest of Paul’s point following.

          Verse 10 and 11 is connected to 9 further explaining we will be given are new bodies as you correctly pointed out, but it confirms this is due to not living after the flesh but because we live after Spirit.

          Verse 12 is a declaration Christians are not indebted to flesh and are not looking for flesh and instead to spirit. This is once again showing the Reader does not live after flesh but Spirit this is not a warning but a statement of fact. We are not Debtors to flesh but Debtors to Christ.

          Verse13 explains why it is Spirit and not flesh. For if it was flesh we would be having only death. Only though Jesus is life so instead we are going to have eternal life.

          “Was Paul mistaken when he warned that the consequence of sowing to the flesh is spiritual death. Sorry but I will take Paul’s words over yours.”

          No he wasn’t mistaken. Problem is Paul was not warning against sowing a spiritual death but explaining what spiritual death is to the reader. You start of Spiritually dead you don’t have kill your spirit. Being Spiritually dead is are default human condition.

          Paul was trying to teach a new concept what living after the Spirit is. Or being spiritually alive something that before no one had save for Adam and Eve pre fall and Jesus. You are again failing to recognize the way Paul explains things.

          He will explain both sides the correct way and the wrong way so he can show the differences of both. This does not mean he thought people in Romans were sowing their spiritual death as you put it. In fact he told them 3 times he thought the opposite. Paul never displayed living after the flesh as warning to the reader only as a teachable moment on the differences of being in Christ vs not being in Christ.

          “ You never explained how the Galatian believers who were called and sealed could turn away from the true gospel to follow another gospel which clearly contradicts your view. “

          If you can show me the verse where Paul says they are damned and condemns them as such I will be more then happy to agree with you. The problem is I couldn’t find such a verse closest verse I got was Paul doubting the sincerity of their confession to believe in Jesus. The only assumption I can make based on his statement of Grace and Peace from Jesus. Is that they were still saved. Anymore then that and it is total speculation on my part.

          • Stu

            Sorry Andrew, couldn’t resist as I finally came to understand your explanation much better. Here’s the breakdown on Rom 8:
            v.9 – i agree with you on that.
            v.10-11 – we both agree on these verses as you wrote “it confirms this is due to not living after the flesh but because we live after Spirit.
            v.12 – i agree with you again.
            So in summary I essentially agree that these verses describe a Christian and how he/she is [supposed] to live which sets the stage for v.13.
            v.13 – the basis of our disagreement boils down to whether this verse is a “teachable moment” or a “warning”.
            You claim that Paul is just teaching the difference between what it means to be living according the flesh before we were saved in contrast to our living according to the Spirit after we were saved. If I understand you correctly, your basic stance is “if you have Chirst in you. You are not living after the Flesh but Spirit” (your words from your previous post).

            Your view hinges on your belief that a Christian can no longer live after the flesh. Therefore I assume that you would agree if it can be scripturally demonstrated that after we came to Christ, Christians can and do live after the flesh then v.13 is no longer just a teachable moment as you believe but a dire warning for the Christian as I believe.

            1 Cor 3:1-3 “But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as PEOPLE OF THE FLESH, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for YOU ARE STILL OF THE FLESH. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
            This passage confirms that Christians still can and do live after the flesh and that is why Paul harshly admonishes them. Therefore this passage undermines your interpretation of Rom 8:13 and confirms my belief that this is a warning that Christians who continue to live after the flesh, will spiritually die.

            “The problem is I couldn’t find such a verse closest verse I got was Paul doubting the sincerity of their confession to believe in Jesus.”

            The problem is that Paul is not just “doubting the sincerity of their confession” as if these people were wishy-washy. He refers to them as “called.” Theologically speaking, called means elected. Called means justified and reconciled. When “called” is used in the Bible it always and without exception refers to people are justified and reconciled. Called is synonomous with saved. Yet these Galatian Christians who were called/saved turned to follow another gospel. In your view someone who is called/saved can turn to follow another gospel – and still be saved and not damned at all. Please explain how that is possible?

  • .Stu—-You will not get an answer from Mr.Grider on the issue of the mark of the beast question No once save, always save, believers will be around when the mark is implemented.He said 144,ooo will preach during the tribulation. A question for Mr.Grider is, will these 144,000 have the Holy Spirit. Again according to his doctrine in 2Thess2v7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    The personal pronoun “HE'” use twice in this verse, they say refer to the Holy Spirit and the “Church”. But in the previous verse Paul use the word WE, referring to the Thessalonians christians. He would be inconsistant in using two different pronouns for the same ….
    How will people get save without the Holy Spirit.
    Here is something you can think on. All throughout the Bible from Genesis we see two parallels, God, satan, good,evil, there is no neutral,right, there is one exception and I will show you Rev 3v15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. . T
    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    The Laodicean–endtime church is the only place where an unnatural condition exist.LUKEWARM—neutral ,one foot in the church and the other in the world. So much for the , once save ,always save doctrine, You do not need any more arguments gentlemen the scripture has spoken..

  • Here is a statement that you might want to debate. What is the meaning of””I WILL SPUE OUT OF MY MOUTH?”

    I WILL say’ it cannot be anything good.

    • AndrewA

      Revelation chapter 3 verse 20

      20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

      Jesus is asking permission to enter them. This makes it pretty clear people being spewed out of his mouth are not indwelt by God and their fore not sealed in Christ. After all if Christ was already indwelling them he would not need to be asking permission to indwell them.

  • eddie santana

    CW, I believe that after the rapture, the new testament dispensation is over and it kind of reverts back to Old Testament times, where the Holy Spirit is not as active doing stuff. Because keep in mind, that in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit was still doing stuff, but just inhabiting those whom He wanted to, which were either worthy, or in God’s plan to inhabit (ie., Saul, David, Solomon, etc.)

  • eddie santana

    “Here is a statement that you might want to debate. What is the meaning of””I WILL SPUE OUT OF MY MOUTH?”

    I WILL say’ it cannot be anything good.”

    That is HILARIOUS CW, thanks. Ha! I agree!

  • eddie santana

    Possibly there were people in the church that were tares. But just as in some churches today there are believers and non-believers alike, it Might be talking about non-believers, but it is probably talking about having a closer relationship with Jesus, more than not. (Dining, or breaking bread in the new testament and old signified closeness and fellowship.

    • AndrewA

      While yes you can have a closer fellowship with Jesus.

      The fact however is that Jesus is outside at the door knocking to come inside this implies no fellowship at all. You can not have fellowship with someone if you refuse to open the door and let them in. Only once the door is opened can they come in and sit with you.

      Here lets look at Jesus’s complaint to Laodicea?

      17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

      To be saved you have to understand that you need Jesus’s sacrifice on the Cross to pay for your sins that we are really poor wretched beings with out him due to sin.

      In their heart they say I have need of nothing. This is a rejection of Jesus. Thus Jesus stands outside knocking asking for them to accept his sacrifice on the cross and to let him into their hearts so they can have fellowship with him.

  • eddie santana

    Example…if I, a born-again believer, have a bank account with $12,000, and someone asks me to borrow $20 for groceries and I deny them, then as I John says, “how can the love of God be in you?.” Well it is, but not enough to part with my money. You get it? Or am I not really saved?

    • AndrewA

      That example implies that giving $20 dollars justifies you as being worthy of salvation.

      It doesn’t justify you.

      Its just something you could do for someone or not do.

      What we are told that saves us now in this Age of Grace and gives us eternal life is the following.

      Romans Ch 10 verse 8-11

      8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

      9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

      10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

      11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

      Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart and you will be saved. People in Laodacia are said to not be believing in their heart.

  • eddie santana

    The $20 thing is a supportive thing to say, but no, its not a matter of salvation being worth $20, but as taking care of one’s needs is evidence of one’s conversion or salvation. So essentially you can be heartless and still be a born-again believer? One wouldn’t think so.

    • AndrewA

      Well as I said with the Romans ch 10 verse 9 quote:

      9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

      Notice the “belive in thine heart.” That is very important in the being saved process. God cares about what is in your heart. God will only seal those who confess with their mouth and believe in their heart. He wants people who believe 100% in what he said and did. The verse quoted above even tells you what it is you need to believe to be saved.

      When you confess and believe then the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in you.

      Paul calls this several things in his epistles
      “Christ in you” “circumcision of the heart” “Living after the spirit” “sealed with the Spirit of Promise”

      All mean the same thing the Holy Spirit is now in you and it moves you to be more obedient and faithful to God. People need to remember we start of dead in are sin in Body and Spirit.

      We are dead in spirit and are body is slowly dieing.

      However at this point in time any who believe the verse above Confess with your mouth and believe completely in you heart God will renew your spirit and make it alive. He will then dwell in you sealing you until Jesus redeems are body.(see Ephesians ch 1 verse 13-14) For are bodies are still dead in sin. (see Roman ch 8 verse 10)

      If you accept Jesus in your heart you will do what works God has planned for you to do for we are his workmanship.

      Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10
      10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

      What maters in this age of Grace is what you believe in your Heart. Do you trust God and believe what he said in Romans ch 10 verse 9? The answer to that question decides the fate of your soul in this age of Grace.

  • To EDsantana. I had such a situation, a man i knew came to me after the death of his wife. He is a small business man. All his finances were spent and he had three children to look after. I did not have $12,000. But I lent him enough to get his car back on the road. A storm devestated the trees from which he got the fruit for his business , We went to Guyana and i lent him more money to import the fruit. His business has not return , and he is still struggling. I do not harass him or even talk about the money and it is thousands of dollars. God can allow testing with money.
    I have since been able to build another apartment to rent as well as a small house for me and my wife.

  • eddie santana

    Thanks CW. I’m glad that God proved faithful and provided for you. At the risk of self-justification, I am slowly learning that sharing one’s money is a faith exercise, that while some have a real problem with money, one has to (and I’m sure God does) make a distinction between a problem in one area in one’s life and a general depraved state of mind. I’m working on it tho (with therapy) so I don’t agree with it, and am working on repentance. Although God understands, I know that does not excuse me from showing the love of God (one of my Christian duties).

  • Pam

    Eternal Security is false teaching. The following bible passages speak for themselves. There are many, many more besides these.

    Don’t you know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practitioners of homosexuality nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
    1st Corinthians 6:9-10

    The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies – and whatever is similar to all these things. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
    Galatians 5:19-21

    But among you there must not even be a hint of sexual immorality, or any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse jesting – things that have no place [among you]. Thanksgiving [is what ought to be heard coming from you] instead. For of this you can be sure: no immoral, impure, or greedy person – such a man is an idolater – has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Don’t let anyone deceive you about this with empty words, for it is because of just such things that God’s wrath comes upon those who refuse to obey and believe. So don’t enter into partnership with them.
    Ephesians 5:3-7

    I give you this command, Timothy my child, in accordance with the prophecies that were made long ago about you, that you conduct a good campaign, one that is in keeping with [those predictions], holding onto your faith and to a clean conscience (cf. 1Tim.1:5-6) – which [conscience] some have rejected (lit., “pushed away”) and [have thus] suffered the shipwreck of their faith.
    1st Timothy 1:18-19

    Those who want to get rich fall into temptations, traps, and many senseless and harmful lusts – the kind which swamp men[‘s hearts] to their destruction and damnation.
    1st Timothy 6:9

    If we deny Him, He will also deny us . . . for He cannot deny Himself.
    2nd Timothy 2:12-13

    In all of the above, believers are being cautioned against sin in the context of losing salvation.

    • AndrewA

      Ok, lets examine what you have said.

      Have you committed any of the sins you listed in action or thought since you came to believe in Jesus?

      If so why are you still saved?

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  • eddie santana

    Sam, you hit the nail on the head. Faith saves you, and faith keeps you saved. Now works come as a response to faith, but the works don’t save you, the faith that inspires the works saves you. Woohoooo. Got some good theology going on here!

    • Faith does NOT save you. Mormons have a very strong faith in their religion but are as lost as lost can be. What saves you? GRACE that is received through faith. It is never about “our faith”, it is ALWAYS about HIS GRACE. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV) And again “And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.” 2 Corinthians 9: 14,15 (KJV). Yes, we receive it by faith, but we are receiving a FINISHED work. It’s about JESUS…

      • Stu

        No; a partial answer is not a sufficient answer. Grace is the means or vehicle by which we are saved appropriated through our faith. To focus on grace exclusively without mentioning faith at all totally distorts Eph 2:8. Grace is God’s part. Faith is our part. They both work together resulting in our salvation. Rom 1:5 states: “By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for the obedience to the faith.” In order to receive the grace of God we must have an obedient faith. If our faith is not an obedient faith, then we have a dead faith. “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (Js 2:17). “But do you know, O, foolish man, that faith without works is dead” (Js 2:20). “For the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (Js 2:26). “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Js 2:23). Our faith must be obedient and alive lest we receive God’s grace in vain.

      • Faith does NOT save you. Mormons have a very strong faith in their religion but are as lost as lost can be. What saves you? GRACE that is received through faith. These one liners, are the problem with many doctrinal teachings. You are a bit confuse . What is “FAITH AND GRACE. Rom 10v 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. .
        6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) .
        7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) .
        8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;.T
        9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. .
        10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. .
        11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. .
        12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. .
        13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
        Not one word of “Grace” is mention in this passage of scripture. It is used by many pastors as the scripture to lead one to salvation. It is Faith in Jesus as Lord , and a verbal confession which come from the heart.It is only after you acknowledge Jesus like the thief on the cross that ‘Grace” unmerited pardon is applied to you.
        Faith is not an abstract, it has to be in someone or something. Can one receive a pardon from a court before he confess or plead guilty. The pardon, grace after.

  • Larry / vietnamvet1971

    AMEN, Thank GOD for His SON JESUS full of Mercy & GRACE.

    • AndrewA

      Amen

  • eddie santana

    That’s some good theology right there, Stu! Nice! So there ya have it folks. Salvation is a joint effort between God and Man. Jesus died so that we could all have life. That was not an insignificant event, and skating thru salvation cheapens the act of our Lord. So, just as we have to accept the gift of life the Lord gives us in order to have it, we also have to follow thru and nurture it, otherwise we become no better than those who refuse the gift. And WHY do they refuse the gift? Because they think they know the character of God and that between one’s own righteousness and the love of God, they can make it to heaven according to THEIR own thinking, when they really don’t know. How could you know, if you don’t know the Bible?

  • AndrewA

    To Stu

    I am glade you understood what I was saying. I just wish I could of explained it better to you earlier then we could of avoided going over the same ground so much.

    Sure lets look at 1 Corinthians chapter 3 verses 1-3.
    1 Cor 3:1-3 “But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as PEOPLE OF THE FLESH, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for YOU ARE STILL OF THE FLESH. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

    (going to post the KJV version as that is what I have been using for cites hope you do not mind.)
    1 Corinthian chapter 3 verse 1-3

    1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    A small point that is sort of is glaring at us if we go by what Paul seems to be literally saying they had not yet lived by the Spirit. If he is saying they are still of the Flesh. (with living after the flesh being the default unsaved condition.) Then they were not in fact saved yet. If they were not saved yet then how could they have lost their salvation?

    The most simple response is. Paul is telling them that they are still being immature in their understanding of the Word and not understanding the most basic piece when it comes to following Jesus that is belief in their Heart. They are not accepting him in their heart hence he uses this verse.

    1 Corinthian chapter 3 verse 11
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    The people he is talking to in 1 Corinthian’s seem to be putting to much trust in Preachers and who they are being taught by. (A sort of which Apostle is best contest. From what I can gather with this verse)

    1 Corinthians chapter 1 21-23

    21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;

    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

    They seem to not be putting any trust in God and the message instead they are only trusting a messenger. The message is look to Jesus in your heart and then we can move on to the rest.

    If you think I am not looking at this chapter right please step in and point out where I seem to be looking at this wrong.

    You said:
    “The problem is that Paul is not just “doubting the sincerity of their confession” as if these people were wishy-washy. He refers to them as “called.” Theologically speaking, called means elected. Called means justified and reconciled. When “called” is used in the Bible it always and without exception refers to people are justified and reconciled. Called is synonomous with saved. Yet these Galatian Christians who were called/saved turned to follow another gospel. In your view someone who is called/saved can turn to follow another gospel – and still be saved and not damned at all. Please explain how that is possible?”

    Called into Jesus and accepting that calling means saved I can agree with that. My problem is Paul did not say they were uncalled or were no longer elect or anything like that as far as I was able to read in the book of Galatians. (He wasn’t afraid to say the false preacher was accursed and that the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians were not yet living after the spirit surly he would of made a point to say they were not saved if in fact it was so.)

    As I said if you can find me the verse were Paul says the Galatians are no longer called and claims they are no longer elect and need to be re saved I am more then happy to agree with you. Without a verse saying they had lost their election and need to re get it is entirely speculation. I have to assume since Paul made a point to condemn the false preacher twice in the book of Galatians that he would of called out anyone else if they in fact were not saved.

    If you can answer were in Galatians Paul says they are no longer saved I am more then happy to agree with you.

  • Stu

    Yes Andrew, after much ongoing discussion the sticking point between us boils down to whether a Christian can follow/live after the flesh.
    You wrote:
    A small point that is sort of is glaring at us if we go by what Paul seems to be literally saying they had not yet lived by the Spirit. If he is saying they are still of the Flesh. (with living after the flesh being the default unsaved condition.) Then they were not in fact saved yet. If they were not saved yet then how could they have lost their salvation?

    The problem I have with your interpretation of this passage is that when we examine Paul’s words I think it is rather clear that he is addressing his remarks to people who are indeed saved. How so? He refers to them as “brethren.” He refers to them as “babes IN CHRIST”. Paul nor any of the writers in all of the NT ever refer to unbelievers as IN Christ. The unsaved are simply understood to be apart from and NOT in Christ. Therefore Paul meant his remarks for those whom he considered to be already saved. The other big problem I find is that you claim that it was just a matter of people “still being immature in their understanding of the Word and not understanding the most basic piece when it comes to following Jesus that is belief in their Heart.” However that is not what these verses state. When you supply a reason/explanation which is different from the one already given in the passage, you violate a basic rule of interpretation and tweak the verse to your own liking/view instead of allowing the passage to define and speak for itself. The specific reason that Paul wrote as to why these believers were still babes in Christ was not due to immaturity in their understanding as you claim but because of “envying, strife and divisions.” In other words, SIN. Because of continued sin in their lives, they were not mature Christians and instead were carnal and following after the flesh. When Paul says that he fed them with milk, this can only apply to Christians because only Christians can receive the milk of God’s word. Unbelievers are totally incapable of receiving the milk of the Word. For these reasons I can’t subscribe to your interpretation that these were not saved people.

    Based on what I pointed out about this passage – that Paul was referring to Christians as explained above, and that Christians can live according to the flesh – the result of sowing after the flesh is: “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting” (Gal 6:8). Paul warned the Galatian Christians that those who live a life of s1owing to the flesh instead of sowing to the Spirit would reap corruption instead of eternal life. Therefore they risk losing their salvation.

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  • eddie santana

    Geoff., I know this has become a dead horse already, but I’m just not catching up to my emails. I think you’re right, “works” don’t keep you saved any more than they save you. Works are just an indication of your spiritual health, right? By this I mean you can either have works of righteousness, or what Paul would call the unfruitful works of darkness. By words or deeds you can deny the Lord Jesus (and your salvation) and Jesus said if someone denies Him He will deny him to his Father. I just don’t think saved individuals have special privileges with God (especially if they’re denying the Lord by their words or deeds.)

    • Oh I agree, you can get saved, get clean, then go back to the world and sin and deny Jesus Christ. I agree 100% you can do that. But even when WE are not faithful, Jesus remains faithful and keeps us saved because of Him and not because of us.

      “It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.” 2 Timothy 2:11-13 (KJV)

      We can never lose our salvation – BUT – we sure can lose our rewards and our inheritance at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

  • Why are you still labouring about alvation and works. The two go together. If you have salvation you are commanded to have good works.Rev 2v1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
    2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
    3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
    To every one of the Churches Jeus say, I KNOW THY WORKS, NO SALVATION. Cant you all see that Jesus judges “your works” 1Cor 3v 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. This is the end of all your arguments. You have wasted alot of time saying nothing. Works are for your reward. It is in the parables. The one who invested 5 made 5 more , the one who invested 2 made 2 more. What happen to the one who did not invest—work.Read it for yourself. Many of you who are denying works as part of your salvation, will end up like the man in the parable.

  • eddie santana

    Right CW. As Jesus said, a good tree doesn’t put forth bad fruit, and a bad tree doesn’t grow bad fruit. You can tell the tree by the type of fruit it puts out. When Jesus cursed that fruitless fig tree…that’s a perfect example of what happens to trees that don’t put out fruit. They whither away into oblivion. Again…the fruit doesn’t save you, it just tells what kind of tree you are. : )

  • Ronnie

    1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel (Is this not the gospel? Paul is here telling the Corinthians that it is!)which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (This is the gospel which must be received, believed and retained always in our memory)
    1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if (What about this? Paul says here that we are saved “IF”) ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (We can believe as the demons do – yet in vain…And unless we believe in vain? So is it just simple belief?) )
    1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (And WHICH Scriptures is Paul referring to?)
    1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    Once saved always saved is a crafty tagline of the enemy. We are saved now and forever IF and only IF we keep the gospel in memory. (Simple -yes – except we have the world, Satan and our flesh standing in the way all the time to distract and in any and all ways – if it be possible – to cause us to NOT RETAIN it in our memory!) We can assume the “once saved always saved” unbiblical doctrine of man and then go about our worldly affairs, forget what sort we were – forget how that Christ died and end up being told to depart from Him. How then do we have assurance that we will absolutely be saved in the end? We must keep the gospel in memory always! That is, we must become a learner of Yeshua and a doer of His Scripture, His word. (Not a hearer only. deceiving ourselves) We must become a part of the gospel and learn the scripture and trade and share the scripture throughout the remainder of our days if we want to have the security that we will be saved in the end. That really is simple!! Christ died. was buried and rose the third day “according to the scriptures” Not according to the bible as we know it today and not according to the New Testament only, but according to God’s law – His torah, the Prophets and the Psalms. This is the “Scripture” Paul is referring to. His torah includes His commandments which we are to keep and His Feasts which we are to keep and practice. The gospel points us immediately to His torah. These are divine appointments for all who believe which reveal God’s work through Christ throughout the generations an well into the future. This gospel which Paul, Peter and Jesus and the rest taught is the gospel of the Kingdom of God. Repent of the convenience gospel, believe this – the only true gospel – retain it as long as you live by faith – followed by obedience to ALL of His commandments – and you will surely be saved once and for all in the end! This is the Narrow gate. Strive to enter in through it and you will know the true “Bible Doctrine Of Eternal Security” and the truth will set you free from the devils cute little lies.

    • James Staten

      I am trying to understand your comments, and for the most part I do, but most of your comments hinge on the word “IF”? My question to you is where does the Holy Spirit fit into your Theology? If you believe the Gospel during this dispensation of Grace, you are baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, how do you remove the Holy Spirit once He indwells you? Scripture tells us not to grieve the Holy Spirit, and it also shows that one day every Believer will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ, and He will put fire to our works. It will either be wood, hay or stubble or it will be gold, silver or precious stones. Scripture is clear many remain babes in Christ, and never grow from the pablum to the full course meal. I think the real question is not Once Saved Always Saved, but who is Saved? My old Pastor used to say, “Once Saved He Changes Your Wanter”….just some thoughts

      • K. A.

        I encourage you to challenge yourself and set aside everything you have been “taught” …As you read the entire New Testament, take note (and mark) the words: “if”, “keep”, “take heed”, and “continue”… You may come to different conclusion. Over 6 years ago, I did that. I wanted to make sure that what I’ve been believing all these years (what I was taught by man) had been correct. It can be a real eye-opener when you don’t take things the way you may have been taught to by reading the “whole counsel of God” and questioning “why” these words were actually written in the way they were.

        • James Staten

          K A.. I see that basically you answered none of the questions or the main question I posed to Ronnie?Since the scripture we are referencing is in Corinthians. I for one would have the son in Corinth having an affair with his step-mother, lost as could be, but the apostle Paul doesn’t. The Gospel is clear in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4..I would say that the question in debate is not if, keep, take heed, but what do you Believe? Fruit Inspection is very difficult, and we can’t see the heart. Again how do you remove the Holy Spirit, once He indwells a person? It appears that the Lord will remove a Believer if they are walking under foot their Salvation. Once Saved Always Saved is true, but Who is Saved is the question, and the Lord is the only one who can answer that question. Grace is freedom, but not license…Just some thoughts

  • eddie

    I know this is pretty well-beaten horse, but I just wanted to clarify that the bible uses two instances of the word “sealed,” one meaning to close, or shut up, and the other to be marked, or confirmed. So sealed doesn’t mean we are shut in to anything, but we are marked and confirmed belonging to God (if in fact we are sincere and don’t move away from our calling, which having free will we are always at liberty to choose). Thanks.

  • Eddie Santana

    Hi Preston. Alot you say is right on, but it seems to me what while salvation is not a respecter of persons, salvation is conditional upon faith, or belief, because “without faith, it is impossible to please God,” including being saved. So if people give up their faith (whether the cares of life choke the word) or whether they were never saved at all, salvation can be voluntarily forfeited, why? Because we ALWAYS maintain our free will. God just takes what we offer Him and multiplies it for His purpose and our good. Free will can help the Father keep us saved, but free will can also cause one to walk away as well. If you say otherwise, then you’re saying we are kept against our will, or our will has nothing to do with it. (When someone sins, they are willfully causing separation between them and God.) So think about it.

    • Preston

      Friend,

      you said, “So if people give up their faith (whether the cares of life choke the word) or whether they were never saved at all, salvation can be voluntarily forfeited,”

      ME – not during the church age. (one could argue after the rapture….maybe) read this CAREFULLY and tell me what you think it means. It is in 2 Tim 2. Before we go there, we have to check other verses about the believer being “sealed”.

      • Eph 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise.”

      • Eph 4:30: “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption.”

      • 2 Cor 1:21,22: “Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;who HATH ALSO SEALED US, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”

      Now to 2 Tim 2.

      “And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and OVERTHROW the FAITH of some” (2 Tim 2:17,18).

      We see that some had their faith overthrown. This MEANS that they believed. Let’s go to the next verse. The first word is NEVERTHELESS. This is the key. The word “nevertheless” means “in spite of”. So some had their faith overthrown… NEVERTHELESS—or in spite of this…

      “NEVERTHELESS the foundation of God standeth sure, having THIS SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity” (2 Tim 2:19).

      Did you catch it? They were STILL SEALED despite their faith being overthrown.

      NOTE: Read the next verses to explain “depart from iniquity”. YES a believer should depart from iniquity. One reason is to build rewards of gold and silver and NOT wood hay and stubble, which will be burned at the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:10-15).

      “But WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him” (Heb 11:6).

      2 Timothy SUMMARY: these people whose faith had been overthrown were producing NOTHING. Their faith was gone! They had no more faith THUS it is impossible to please God (produce). Were they saved? YES – NEVERTHELESS, having THIS SEAL, the Lord knoweth them that are HIS

      MY INTERPRETATION
      – Faith overthrown (meaning once believed)
      – nevertheless (in spite of this)
      – having THIS SEAL (sealed by the Holy Spirit)
      – the Lord knoweth the that ARE His (still owned by Jesus).

      How do you interpret this????? To me, it is pretty clear. Once can lose their faith (overthrown) but are still sealed.

      with respect,

  • Eddie Santana

    Ok. Here is a thought-provoking question: Can one be saved and not exhibit the love of God? : )

    • Preston

      YES – the the very saved; yet very carnal church at Corinth.

      There are clearly saved (1 Cor 1:2,4,6,8)

      They are clearly carnal – but were babes in Christ (1 Cor 3:1-3). They were a saved church; sanctified (1:2). However, they were sinning all over the place. Some of their sins were envying, strife, and divisions (3:3). A believer has relations with his stepmother (1 Cor 5:5), there were lawsuits among the believers (1 Cor 6:7) there was fornication (1 Cor 7:2), there was drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor 11:21).

      NOW -define love of God???? Do many Mormons. JW’s, Catholics, peace keeping muslims show the “love of God”? Are they saved?

      with respect,

  • Eddie Santana

    Hey Preston: thanks for that explain. I just wanted to add, that people use the word “sealed” as evidence, which while I think the OSAS doctrine does give lots of hope, it also gives room for people to slack up and not try as hard. But regarding the word, sealed, here are the two Strong’s meanings:

    4972 sphragizo

    from 4973; TDNT-7:939,1127; v

    AV-seal 22, set to (one’s) seal 1, stop 1, seal up 1, set a seal 1, vr seal 1; 27

    1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
    1a) for security: from Satan
    1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
    1c) in order to mark a person or a thing
    1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
    1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God
    1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
    1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
    1d1a) of a written document
    1d1b) to prove one’s testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be

    2696 katasphragizo

    from 2596 and 4972; TDNT-7:939,1127; v

    AV-seal 1; 1

    1) to cover with a seal, to close up, close with a seal.

    Now, the word that is used mostly of believers is the 4972 version of sealed, which means marked and confirmed, or even secured. Now if the 2596 version was used, which means to close up, or cover, then the OSAS doctrine might have more validity, but at this point it doesn't. Soooo, I'll go with the Santa Claus concept..."you better be good, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm tellin' you why..." Jesus is coming at any moment. : )

    • Preston

      Friend,

      but consider the Holy Spirit is doing the “sealing” here. also consider, there is no passage that states on is ever unsealed by the Holy Spirit.

      Can a saved person “slack up” and still go to heaven? SURE. salvation is a FREE GIFT (Rom 5:15-20 – KJV); without works (Eph 2:8-9, Rom 4:2-7, Titus 3:5 and my all time favorite Rom 11:6).

      However, it should be stated that there ARE consequences TO the believer for behavior. If you would like, I would be happy to share some…..one example……loss of eternal rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.

      as for thanking me…..no need. I enjoy discussing the bible. but I always remember this….the bible; being the word of God CANNOT contradict itself. If there is a “contradiction”; we have missed something.

      Being new to this blog, I don’t know if the person running this would allow me to do this, another blog does not. They don’t feel comfortable giving out my email. I have a book out, which I will give a FREE pdf copy to if they simply email me @ simplesinner8@gmail.com. Many have emailed me in the past. There is a chapter on eternal security, but the main part of the book is explaining some of the passages used to deny salvation by grace alone.

      with respect,

  • Eddie Santana

    Thanks. The Corinthian example makes a lot of sense. Thank you again.

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  • only Jesus saves!

    Here are 13 HUGE reasons why we CANNOT lose salvation:

    1The Father predestined us to salvation before the earth’s foundation (Ephesians 1:3-5).

    2Jesus purchased (redeemed) us by His blood. Therefore, we no longer belong to ourselves (Ephesians 1:7, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Revelation 5:9).

    3The Holy Spirit was sealed into us as a guarantee of our inheritance until the day of our redemption (Romans 8:23, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22).

    4Salvation is (a gift) COMPLETELY of the LORD (Ephesians 2:8). If we could lose salvation, we’d have to work for it, which would make it a reward instead.

    5We are justified solely by GRACE ALONE (Ephesians 2:8), through FAITH ALONE (Romans 4:5, 1 John 5:4), in Christ ALONE (John 14:6, Acts 4:10-12). I you feel that you have to “keep” salvation, you’re depending on your own righteousness, which is like filthy rags before the LORD (Isaiah 64:6).

    6It was not by our will that we were born again, but of God’s will. Therefore we cannot “give up” salvation because we had no part of in it (John 1:13).

    7We were promised that if we believed in the “only begotten Son” we would not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

    8*The LORD loses NONE of His (John 10:27-30).

    9Jesus promised to never blot out the names of those who’ve overcome from the book of life. We overcame by faith in Christ (1 John 5:4, Revelation 3:5).

    10Christ, who was sinless, was made sin by God on our behalf, so that we could obtain His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). If we could lose salvation, Christ’s death was in vain.

    11If we sin, we have an Advocate (Jesus) to plead with the Father on our behalf (1 John 2:1). This would be completely pointless if we could lose salvation.

    12There is no more condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1).

    13What God starts, He finishes (Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 12:2)!

    • cutman

      Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    • Your 13 reasons are biblical and logical. Please answer why did the Holy spirit inspire Paul to write 2thess2v1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, JDC NTB
      2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. JDC EBD NTB
      3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
      Since your 13 reasons would exclude ,shaken in mind,decieve and falling away. It done make sense to warn of something that cannot happen.

    • sam fox

      OnlyJesusSaves, define ‘lose’ regarding “…we CANNOT lose salvation:”

      What I mean by ‘lose’ is that Father won’t take it back. And stuff we are struggling against won’t ‘lose it’ for us nor will backsliding, unless the backsliding is not repented of & the backslider goes into apostasy.
      But I believe a backslider can die in their sin & still be saved. [Not saying that definitively. That is my take at this time.]

      However it IS possible to repudiate, forfeit, & abandon it. At this point, I see that it’s not so much sin* that can cause the loss of salvation but rather a turning away from our allegiance to Christ & joining it to another. The only ‘other’, boiled down, is satan.

      [*Sin that hasn’t lead to apostasy.]

      Thanks.

      SamFox

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  • Elegra

    Hi

    I enjoy your articles and read these often, I appreciate the time that goes into these. However I do not agree with once saved always saved.

    As the bible teaches we shall not continue in our sin but repent (turn from our sin) and follow our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    1 John 2:1
    My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    Romans 6.1
    1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Matthew 12.50: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    2 Chronicles 7:14 – If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    1 John 1:9 – If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Acts 3:19 – Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    Luke 13:3 – I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Ezekiel 18:21-23 – But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    Acts 17:30 – And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    2 Peter 3:9 – The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Proverbs 28:13 – He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.

    James 4:8-10 – Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

    Revelation 2:5 – Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    Acts 2:38 – Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    2 Corinthians 7:9-11 – Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

    Thank you

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