NTEB CHALLENGE: Can You Answer These 5 Questions About Dispensational Salvation?

Jesus in Matthew and Paul in Titus are giving two very conflicting instructions on how to have eternal life in Heaven. Paul's doctrine absolutely conflicts with that of Jesus, yet Paul says it was Jesus that taught him that doctrine. If dispensational differences don't exist in the Bible, then good luck explaining this one!
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Perhaps the greatest example of salvational differences in the entire Bible is that New Testament saints in the Church Age can never lose their salvation or the presence of the Holy Spirit, but that was absolutely not the case for Old Testament saints. If there is only one salvation plan, what changed?

“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:” Colossians 1:25,26 (KJV)

Many Christians will write into us, and take issue with our stand that the Bible teaches how God administers salvation over different dispensations. Some Christians don’t even acknowledge that there are different dispensations. Funny thing, though, when Paul started his ministry he revealed “mysteries” that the apostles had never even heard of. Peter ends 2 Peter with the admonition that wrestling with Paul’s doctrine, very different from the rest of the apostle’s doctrine, would lead to your own destruction if you don’t approach it according to 2 Timothy 2:15.

No difference in salvation plans, you say? Ha! Guess again.

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” 2 Peter 15,16 (KJV)

So we thought it would be a good time to see who is able to answer any or all of the following 5 questions regarding the differences in dispensational salvation. When replying, please use KJV scripture to support your position if you would like a reply. Have fun!

If salvation is the same for everyone throughout the entire Bible, then:

  • Why didn’t Old Testament saints go straight to Heaven after they died like New Testament Christians do?
     One of the hallmark attributes of a Christian is that because we are born again, we go immediately to Heaven when we die with no stops in-between. The Church Age has lasted so long we just assume that it was like this for all the saints who came before us. But not so. The Thief on the Cross had the wonderful good fortune to die at the side of the Saviour of the whole world. That got him into Paradise but not Heaven right away.
    “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 (KJV)
    “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV)
  1. Why were Old Testament saints mandated to shed animal blood and burnt sacrifices for sins while New Testament Christians are not?
    There is not a single Christian in the entire Church Age that was ever required to make an animal sacrifice as an atonement for sins. But in the Old Testament, failure to do so could send you to Hell. Things that are different are not the same, obviously. 
    “And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.”
    Job 1:5 (KJV)
  1. Why did God not justify the wicked in the Old Testament, but justifies the ungodly in the New Testament?
    Again, the differences could not be more obvious and apparent. Did God change His mind from one testament to the other or is the Bible teaching dispensational differences?
    “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.” Nahum 1:2,3 (KJV)
    “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:5 (KJV)
  1. Why did Jesus say eternal life is given through keeping the commandments but Paul says that eternal life is given not by works of righteousness which we have done?
    Jesus in Matthew and Paul in Titus are giving two very conflicting instructions on how to have eternal life in Heaven. Paul’s doctrine absolutely conflicts with that of Jesus, yet Paul says it was Jesus that taught him that doctrine. If dispensational differences don’t exist in the Bible, then good luck explaining this one!
    “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:16,17 (KJV)
    “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Titus 3:5-7 (KJV)
  1. Why could the Holy Spirit leave an Old Testament saint but is sealed in the New Testament Christian?
    Perhaps the greatest example of salvational differences in the entire Bible is that New Testament saints in the Church Age can never lose their salvation or the presence of the Holy Spirit, but that was absolutely not the case for Old Testament saints. If there is only one salvation plan, what changed?
    “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.” Psalm 51:11 (KJV)
    “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” 1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV)
    “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)

Jimmy Randolph is a veteran, husband, father, Bible believer and a devoted student of the word of God. He was called to preach on the street in 2012, and maintains a strong, personal tract witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • A Trober

      The most significant dispensation you’re ignoring is Lev 23 Holy Days are, indeed, milestones for the plan of salvation.
      TO THE DAY, Christ was offered on Passover. (And, was the wave sheaf offering, read up on that ritual).
      TO THE DAY, the Holy Spirit was made available, en masse, on Pentecost.

      In the future, TO THE DAY the Feast of Trumpets, Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles will fulfill their respective milestones in the plan of salvation of God.

      (And, God commanded us not to change His sabbaths, times and seasons to others. Since ALL mainstream Christianity has, they have lost the milestone-to-milestone “dispensation” you are talking about).

      There were no OT saints. The truth is Ancient Israel had zero chance of repenting, because the Holy Spirit was not available to them. Only a few selected individuals received it. The Holy Spirit was not AVAILABLE prior to Christ entering the Holy of Holies and offering Himself as a propitiation for sins. NO ONE receives the Holy spirit without accepting that offering.

      NO ONE goes to heaven immediately upon dying. No, it is —not— in the Bible.
      Not even Abraham, to Daniel, to ANYONE else is in heaven this very day, other than Enoch who was translated.
      Would you like me to post an article for you proving that?
      Lazaruz and the Rich Man is a revelation on judgment, not chronology. Paul’s description of meeting Christ in the air, ditto.
      Those under the OT were under the Old Covenant. Thus, required by law to offer them in exchange for the covenant’s blessings. Christ once-and-for-all made that offering so that New Covenant saints do not have to offer it. Those under the OT were never cleansed from their sins: http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-4.htm. Rather, they were acting out what WOULD be that cleansing. ALL the temple rituals are a pattern of what is going on in heaven: http://biblehub.com/hebrews/8-5.htm.

      Job was not under the Old Covenant. The Book of Job preceeded the Old Covnenant. Therefore, we do not know under what covenant, or man-made ritual, Job sanctified his family. (Job might have been the Priest of On in Egypt, another discussion).

      Because, they are covered under the blood of Christ. Ancient Israel was not under the blood of Christ. They were under the law.
      If you are saved, you will keep His commandments. Thus, your walk or lifestyle will be refecting those commandments. Jesus’ blood saves you, but you MUST repent. Repentance is works. So, yes, technically there are works: bear the fruits of repentance. But, even being a “good” person doesn’t save you without accepting Christ’s blood for your sins. We are rewarded for our works, but not saved by them.
      Ancient Israel didn’t have the Holy Spirit in the first place. And, the Holy Spirit CAN leave a backslider. People CHOOSE to repent. Daily. And, if they persist in not doing so, they most certainly can lose salvation. A person worried about it, is repentant. Thus won’t lose salvation.

      • A Trober

        post lost numbers. Sorry about that.

      • No saints in the Old Testament? You better check that – “Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.” Psalm 50:5 (KJV) “Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.” Psalm 132:9 (KJV)

        • A Trober

          Ps 50 doesn’t apply to Old Covenant application. As do many of the Psalms, they are prophetic. 🙂

      • Michael

        A TOBER, Your last paragraph is a wee bit confusing. So, folks are not saved by works, but by Jesus’ blood; but, Jesus’ blood may not be enough if they’re backslidden, but they can repent (which means works) and be saved again.
        Can you give me a handful of scriptures on this “doctrine”?

        • A Trober

          What is “backslidden” in this case? Someone who can’t get their act together but is trying? They’re not lost.

          Someone who chooses to walk away after accepting Christ’s blood and refuses to return? They are lost.

          The confusion in this (long-time) topic comes from context.

          There are indeed “works” to be saved:

          “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” Matt 3:8

          No one can be baptized and continue living the same lifestyle. The very word “repent” means “to turn”. So, that much is “works”.

          One way to summarize the confusion: those facing toward Christ regardless of maturity are saved.

          Those who turn back, willfully, persisting in such, are this:

          “who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance” Heb 6:6 (But, backup for context).

          ****back**** to repentance means they DID repent at one time, but TURNED back the other way.

          A good ground rule for those worried they’ve messed up: you worrying about it proves your not lost.

    • asewanywa

      The key to all 5 lies in 4 simple dispensational letters: “BC” & “AD”. Now go search the Scriptures for yourself like the Bereans, for the answers. We know who said,
      “ Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.”

      • S R

        Does John the Baptist fall in the BC or AD – he closes the ld Testament

        • asewanywa

          He lived before Christ’s death and resurrection. That’s another key.

      • @ase

        The heck is that on your head?

    • Repentance is NOT works. Repentance is accepting the free gift of Salvation thru Jesus!

      • Amen!! I was going to post that exact comment.

        • Jim Black

          From Adam to the last person to be saved, REPENTANCE is CORNERSTONE. Believing Jesus died for you and rose from the dead won’t do doodly squat if it is not accompanied by repentance. Repentance is a change of mind, that results in a change of attitude, which results in a changed pattern of living whether it was in the garden of Eden or in the great tribulation. What is the basic change of mind? It is changing your mind about what you are (a sinner) and who Jesus is (the Savior). In the OT, same thing except that Jesus was called Jehovah. If repentance is genuine fruit will be brought forth mete with it. You and Kim have nailed it.

          • hrgreenjr

            So, bottom line, GOD is going to save all people by their WORKS, that is what you are saying…so much for the FREE GIFT OF GRACE (Romans 6:23) and the simplicity of Jesus Christ. (2Cor. 2:11) “FAITH” is not works, Romans 3:27 Repentance at SALVATION, is not works either. FAITH in Jesus Christ is repentance unto SALVATION. God repented, several times in the O.T. does that make Him a sinner too? Did God have to change His wicked ways?? lol..

      • A Trober

        And, the evidence one has truly accepted it will be a changed life:

        “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” Matt 3:8

        Just getting wet at baptism doesn’t save anyone.

    • asewanywa

      Heb 9:8 — Heb 9:10
      The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
      Hebrews 7:12
      For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
      Heb 9:11 — Heb 9:12
      But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
      Hebrews 9:15
      For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
      Heb 9:23 — Heb 9:26
      Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin  by the sacrifice of Himself.

    • Larry/vietnamvet1971

      Interesting, will follow and read the comments.

      • Leonard

        This should be one of Geoffrey’s best posts…

    • God the Father tells Moses that the tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant were types of the heavenly in the Old Testament. The sacrificial system was already established since Abel did it and the system was learned by Godly People like Abraham and Noah. The sacrificial system and everything in the Tabernacle point to ( 1 ) Jesus’ Sacrifice on The Cross and ( 2 ) God’s Holiness which we cannot achieve through our works but through Jesus and His Precious Sacrifice on The Cross.

      • A Trober

        The rituals in the tabernacle are just that, and more. They are a pattern of heavenly things which pertain to the plan of salvation:

        “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.” Ex 25:40

        “They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. ” Heb 8:5 (which also quotes above just after this)

        The Book of Hebrews is a good place to start, many things about it, including this:

        “It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.” Heb 9:23

        And, we all know that it was cleansed with Jesus Christ’s blood.

        However, there was the wave sheaf offering. And, much more. Christ is the wave sheaf offering. Then, came the first harvest rituals. Christ is the first of the first fruits, and there are more first fruits:

        ‘They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.” Rev 14:4

        Furthermore, there are TWO resurrections:

        “This is the first resurrection.” Rev 20:5

        because, “(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) ” Rev 20:5a, aka a second resurrection.

        Now, go back and review the temple rituals. There was a spring harvest with a wave sheaf offering, then the first fruits presented. Then, a gap all summer long before a second harvest.

        This is why is it very —dangerous— to use anything OTHER than God’s given calendar and times to decipher prophecy, the plan of salvation, etc. It is —impossible— to filter either through man-made A.D. / B.C., Roman-Greco calendars, even the Jews corrupted their own calendar coming out of Babylon.

        Peace, brethren.

    • TWR

      Salvation was not part of the mutual agreement made between God and the Israelites. There were no afterlife provisions in the first covenant.
      Hebrews 8:6King James Version (KJV)
      6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
      Hebrews 9:26King James Version (KJV)
      26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
      Romans 4:15King James Version (KJV)
      15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
      Israelites were punished because they were under the law. Gentiles were not formally presented with statutes and judgements, so there was no transgression. there is no law today, but we are still judged righteous or ungodly based on the commandments. There are commandments, then there are laws for breaking the commandments. We don’t receive earthly punishment for breaking the commandments, but that does not mean you will not pay
      Most non-Israelites don’t understand works of righteousness as they pertain to the law These consisted of vows and sacred service solely for the purpose of staying in God’s graces. They are not the everyday good works done by a believer. Paul’s explanation, on this point was not for gentiles. Everyone is going to be judged by their works. Christians today unknowingly do acts of sacred service. If a preacher says sow a seed in my ministry and God will bless you ten fold, that is sacred service. If a Christian believes they must give 10% of their income, sacred service. If every time the church doors someone is there because they believe they are earning their way to heaven, sacred service.
      The Holy Spirit is not sealed to anyone. In the old testament (Deuteronomy 18:16), God wanted to write his laws upon the hearts of Israel. They were afraid and asked for a middleman. In the new covenant, God wrote his laws upon the hearts and minds of Israelites (Hebrews 8:10). Gentiles were only CONDITIONALLY grafted in.
      Romans 11:22King James Version (KJV)
      22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

      You have to stay in God’s goodness.
      Proverbs 13:13King James Version (KJV)
      13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.

      Technically, there is no free gift of salvation. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. If you don’t love him, how can you obtain salvation. Obviously you need to keep the commandments. Romans 1:28 is talking about losing the spirit when God turns you over to a reprobate mind. Believe is a myth. Paul was Apostle to gentiles but some of his conversations were strictly for Israel. He told them they just had to believe because they already knew the law.

      Acts 21:20King James Version (KJV)
      20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

      • A Trober

        Salvation was not part of the mutual agreement made between God and the Israelites.
        correct.

        What we do know in scripture:

        (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) Rev 20:5

        FACT: no one is dying and going to heaven or hell. And, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible to support it.

        “You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

        which command?

        “He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws” Dan 7:25

        most will recognize the above as the papal reign 538-1798 (“for a time, times and half a time”, 1260 years).
        what did the Roman Catholic Church do? Change the sabbath, change the seasons and times.

        Does Dan 7:25 apply to us today? Christ answers that:

        ‘But Jesus told him, “No! The Scriptures say, ‘People do not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that comes from the mouth of God.'” Matt 4:4

        the Protestant Reformation did not go back to keeping them nor emphasizing them. And, the overwhelming bulk of 17th 18th and 19th century commentary ARE THE TRADITIONS OF MAN. Fact.

        The Bible ALREADY GIVES THE MILESTONE EVENTS AND CHRONOLOGY OF THE PLAN OF SALVATION. And, no one is alive today, other than Jesus Christ and Enoch, per that Word.

        Rev 14:4 “they did not COME TO LIFE” John “saw the souls”, but they were not alive. Otherwise, they would not have “come to life” at a resurrection.

        That, brethren, is your Bible. And dying and going to your reward, or hell, is no where in the plan of salvation nor in anything but Protestant Reformation uninspired literature.

        • Michael

          Rev 14:4 is an incorrect reference. If you mean Rev 6:9-11, notice some truths about souls:

          You can SEE souls (verse 9)
          You can HEAR souls because they TALKED (“cried with a loud voice”) verse 10
          You can converse with souls (“and it was SAID UNTO THEM, REST YET FOR A LITTLE SEASON”) verse 11
          Souls can WEAR CLOTHING (“white robes were give. Unto EVERY ONE OF THEM)

          Next, Matthew 27:52-54, ” and the graves were opened; and many BODIES (see it, BODIES) of the saints (there’s your OT saints, right there), which SLEPT, arose and came out of the graves after his resurrection…..”

          BODIES SLEEP, NOT SOULS! Read Luke 16:19-31 and IT IS NOT A PARABLE!

          Get your doctrine right and stop reading the NWT piece of junk!

          • A Trober

            I meant Rev 14:4 per the “firstfruits” reference:

            They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

            Every Old Covenant-literate person knows what the “first fruits” were.

            It is one-in-the-same as the first resurrection: Rev 20:5-6

            Christ is the wave sheaf offering.

            The first resurrection are the first fruits. (The wave sheaf offering is the very first of the first fruits, both are first fruits, but distinct in being presented aka resurrected).

            The second resurrection is the fall harvest and the Feast of Trumpets, Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles correspond to the prophetic events to-come regarding them.

        • Jimmy

          “FACT: no one is dying and going to heaven or hell. And, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible to support it.”

          LOL!! Tell that to the rich man in Luke 16 KJV who died and lifted his eyes up in hell (which Jesus does not call a parable by the way)

          • A Trober

            That is not a revelation on chronology — like the entire OT temple rituals, Holy Days, and the fact the New Testament expounds on the fact those are the timelines.

            That is a reference to judgment. And, it is also hyperbole. We know it is hyperbole:

            (a) because of the explicit revelations of God’s Holy Days, calendar and the fact history has already fulfilled, to-the-day, the spring Holy Days.

            (b) Christ deliberately obscured parables to not make it easy to understand. Christ explicitly stated He did that on purpose.

            Dante’s Inferno took this verse to mean it the way you have proposed it. And, it has remained as an influence to Bible study wherever you find a non-Biblical calendar basis for interpretation.

            Ancient Israel (the northern kingdom) was sent into exile for abandoning MY Sabbaths as God put it. Which included the Lev 23 days. Ancient Israel was under covenant to keep them. Today’s believers are not, for salvation. But, they ARE required to understand the topics you speak of.
            the pope changed seasons and times against God’s will, see Dan 7:25.
            the Protestant Reformation correctly identified the Roman Catholic Church as apostate, but still did not return to basing their biblical research per Christ’s admonition: “EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God.'” Matt 4:4

            The facts are the bulk of Protestant Reformation material IS THE TRADITION OF MAN. They got the Bible into laymen’s hands after the pope was incarcerated in 1798, the earth swallowed up the flood of the dragon by the New World opening up, and the entire world was evangelized on the covenant that counts: The New Covenant.

            However, THEY KEPT THE CATHOLIC PRACTICE of keeping days that are man’s tradition. Christmas and Easter are Satanic inspirations meant to take believers away from clear revelation. As is Sunday. As is Roman calendars. And, more.

            Therefore, verses like you quote for salvation and resurrection are clearly known to those who’s interpretation is only the Bible. Mix in man’s tradition and you get the false notion one dies and goes to heaven or hell. Implying judgement at death. And, there is absolutely no such thing anywhere in God’s revelation of the plan of salvation.

            peace.

          • Pete

            Jimmy, it’s pretty obvious the Luke 16 story Jesus tells is a symbolic parable, designed to answer the unbelieving Jews, showing them their error in what they thought righteousness was. Jesus spoke a lot of things in this parable that, if literal, would contradict other passages. So of course that cannot be happening. Also, it cannot be literal…that isn’t possible.

            1) If people are separated from their bodies at death, then they cannot lift up their eyes in hell, they have no eyes, their body lies in the grave
            2) If people are separated from their bodies at death, they cannot have a tongue in hell, they have no body
            3) If people are separated from their bodies at death, they cannot have a finger in heaven, they have no body
            4) People cannot pray to Abraham and Abraham answers them – that would mean that Abraham has the same privledges as God has in prayer, and that is impossible
            5) Furthermore people in hell cannot talk to those in heaven, that is a direct contradiction of many other passages (Isaiah 65:17 for example)
            6) All of the dead cannot possibly fit into Abraham’s bosom
            7) People are rewarded for good or bad at the JUDGEMENT. If people are sitting hell right now paying for their sins, they are paying for their sins before they have been judged. A Righteous Judge would never do that. You are believing in purgatory.
            8) The story insinuates that people are alive right after death, but that would mean the resurrection had already taken place

            You have to read the entire chapter of Luke 16 to get the context. I realize dispies have a really hard time with context. Jesus was not attempting to deliver a message about secrets from beyond the grave. He was making a point to the evil generation of His day. Certainly we can learn from it just like all the other parables. But we should not draw contradictory teaching out of it.

      • Jimmy

        @TWR

        Your answer is a perfect example of the destructive pit of contradictions you get in by failing (or rebelling) to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15 KJV).

        Contradiction #1: “Technically, there is no free gift of salvation”. BUT God’s word says otherwise (Romans 5:15 KJV)

        Contradiction #2: “Everyone is going to be judged by their works”. BUT God’s word says otherwise (Titus 3:5 KJV)

        Contradiction #3: ” The Holy Spirit is not sealed to anyone”. BUT God’s word says otherwise (Eph 4:30 KJV)

        Contradiction# 4: “You have to stay in God’s goodness”. BUT God’s word says otherwise (Rom 4:5 KJV) (BTW, the context of Prov 13:13 has nothing to do with Church age salvation)

        Contradiction #5: “If you don’t love him, how can you obtain salvation”. BUT God’s word says that Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS (1 Tim 1:15 KJV), NOT “sinners that love him”. Also, God’s word says that we were reconciled to God WHILE WE WERE ENEMIES (Rom 5:10 KJV). It does not say while we were “lovers of his Son”.

        If you truly “love God” and are born again, why do you stand directly opposed to his word??

        • TWR

          @ Jimmy

          It is unfortunate when a Christian uses a scripture to contradict another scripture. That is like saying God’s word contradicts itself. When Christians speak of rightly dividing the word, it is usually only the new testament.

          Contradiction #1: Matthew 19:16-19 – But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Regardless of how anyone tries to interpret, God operates on a conditional basis. The gift is free because you didn’t earn it. That is why everyone won’t receive it.

          Contradiction #2: Who will render to every man according to his deeds (Romans 2:6). Job 34:11, Psalms 62:12, Proverbs 24:12, Jeremiah 17:10, Ezekiel 36:16, Matthew 16:27, 2 Corinthians 11:15, Ecclesiastes 3:17

          Contradiction #3: Initially you were talking about the holy spirit leaving. Eph 4:30 is speaking to Israel. Cross reference with Matthew 20:28.

          Contradiction #4: Don’t use a scripture to contradict a scripture. Faith Is keeping the commandments (1 John 2:3-6).
          Romans 11:22King James Version (KJV)
          22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

          If thou continue in his goodness is a conditional statement. Am I wrong? Maybe you are not correctly understanding Ephesians 4:30. (Proverbs 13:13 has nothing to do with the church age? When is the last time you read 2 Timothy 3:16-17?)

          Contradiction #5: He came in the world to save sinners. Who was he sent to (Matthew 15:24)? Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).
          Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression (Romans 4:15). Jesus died for transgressions under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15). Hebrews 9:22, shed blood was for the cleansing (remission of sin) under the law. Blood in and blood out. Moses had to sprinkle the blood to seal the covenant. If you weren’t under the first covenant, shed blood wasn’t for you. Where no law is, there is no transgression. Were gentiles under the law? Are we under the law? Chronology is important. It wasn’t until after the resurrection that the command was given to make disciples of all nations. Everything Paul stated in his letters were not directed to gentiles, they are hard to understand, and unless you are learned (Torah observant), you will twist his words to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

          I truly love God and do not oppose his word, I simply try to help people gain a better perspective.

          • @TWR

            As with all others who fail to rightly divide the word of truth, you make absolutely no sense. But I’ve dealt with you long enough to see that you’ll continue to wrest the scriptures unto your own destruction without letting the truth stop you.

            I await the day to see you tell the Lord Jesus Christ face to face that he lied when he claimed IT IS FINISHED, because the atonement HE MADE for sin of Calvary’s cross was not good enough BY ITSELF to save anyone from Hell. (Galatians 2:21 KJV)

            • TWR

              @ Jimmy

              Everything I say would make perfect sense if Christians ever took time to divide the complete works. I understand the three worlds (ages) of Peter. I understand how gentiles have manipulated the word. What happens at the end of this world (age) pertaining to the gentiles cannot even be found in the new testament. The gentiles get cut off.

              Joel 3:9King James Version (KJV)
              Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

              Zephaniah 3:6-8King James Version (KJV)
              6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.

              7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.

              8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

              Jeremiah 51:19-23King James Version (KJV)
              19 The portion of Jacob is not like them; for he is the former of all things: and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: the Lord of hosts is his name.

              20 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;

              21 And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider;

              22 With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid;

              23 I will also break in pieces with thee the shepherd and his flock; and with thee will I break in pieces the husbandman and his yoke of oxen; and with thee will I break in pieces captains and rulers.

              Isaiah 66:15-16King James Version (KJV)

              15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

              16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with ALL FLESH: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.

              Ezekiel 39:21King James Version (KJV)
              21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. (No. That’s right. They are going to be raptured).

              Micah 5:15King James Version (KJV)
              15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

              What you are preaching as the end of the church age, was actually the end of the previous age. The gospels and Paul’s letters are a story element. There is no prophetic word. A lot of preachers and teachers are going to be too embarrassed to admit it, but this is prophetic word, from the prophets. Gentiles get cut off.

              Amos 9:11-12King James Version (KJV)

              11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

              12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.

    • sharon

      very good questions…. I like this……..

    • Faith Contender

      Yes, that is an interesting issue. I do believe there are distinctions in a sense, such as the OT saints and NT saints. Jesus called John the Baptist the greatest in one but the least will be better in the other (forgot the verse, but anyway it’s there). However, the people of God were always saved by grace and faith. Abraham was ‘justified by faith’ and Noah and others found ‘favor’ in God’s eyes (grace). See Paul’s whole argument to the Galatians. They were to keep the law but of course no one but Jesus could do it perfectly. We are saved from the law but to live an obedient life of holiness in Christ. All things in the OT point to Jesus in a forward sense, all is a type of Him, like sacrifices, etc.. Now that He has fulfilled all, we need not ‘keep the feasts’ in a legalistic sense, but rest in Christ’s finished work, yet we rejoice in Him and celebrate Him every day. (See Romans 14; 6) Keeping things in a legalistic OT way was to be avoided (See Galatians 4; 10). We certainly are not to reinstate animal sacrifices, etc. as should be an obvious example. His sacrifice was ‘once and for all’ (see Hebrews 10). We don’t ‘keep the law’ we celebrate Christ’s victory. Commandments we are to regard would be like do not murder, commit adultery, and you must love one another, things in the NT, etc. It gets complex but just read the Bible and you will see. Then there are distinct times such as ‘the times of the Gentiles’ which will soon be fulfilled, so there are different ‘times,’ and slight differences. The general outline is the same. Repent and turn to the Lord for salvation and forgiveness. In fact, the whole journey from Egypt up into the Promised Land was an Outline of the Lord’s plan of salvation. The ‘exodus,’ going through the water, ‘regeneration’ in the desert (only the new generation entered the land), indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Spirit filled tabernacle), circumcision of the heart (crossing Jordan) and other details like that, entering the land in victory is like the new Life in Christ as a Christian. Yes, yes, lots of gems in the Bible for the diligent scholar.
      ( ;
      1. Because Jesus hadn’t died on the cross yet. Too many verses to cite here, a good reading of the accounts demonstrates this. Some OT prophets even were raised.
      2. Because Jesus hadn’t died on the cross yet. (Same.)
      3. From what I recall, only the repentant ‘wicked’ were able to be justified in either case. Isaiah said he had been ‘a man of unclean lips’ before.
      4. Yet a ‘wicked’ man could not be saved simply by ‘keeping the commandments.’ Recall that Jesus said to the pharisees that unless they believed in Him, they would all die in their sins. They were sticklers for keeping commandments of course. In either dispensation there needs to be more. We are also called to keep commandments, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John), but of course we are not saved by keeping commandments. If we love the Lord and have turned to Him, we keep the rules He wants us to keep. In the end we are saved by grace.
      5. After Pentecost we have the Holy Spirit in a special way. After Jesus died on the cross He ascended to the Father, after the sacrifice purchased us and He was glorified, He sent the Holy Spirit to the church in a special way.
      (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7; 39 (and others)

      Yet when it comes to eternal security, there are more than enough Bible verses to refute it (KJV):

      But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
      Matthew 24; 13
      But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
      1 Corinthians 9; 27
      So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
      Revelation 3; 16
      Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10; 32-33

      Too many conditionals there to deny this fact.

      Anyway, not looking for a reply. Just wanted to do it for the fun of it.

      God bless!
      D

      • Jim Black

        Hello FC,

        “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24; 13”

        “Saved” IN THIS PARTICULAR VERSE, I don’t think, is about salvation from sin or hell, rather deliverance from the persecutions, trials and tribulations of the great tribulation. Jesus had mentioned in Matt. 24:9 that saints will be delivered to tribulation and death, “But those who endure to the end will be saved.”

        Check out the meaning of The Greek for “saved” (“Sozo,” Thayer’s Lexicon #4982). In my view, those who endure to the end will be those who will be “alive and remain” following the great tribulation (1 Thes. 4:17) The Greek for “remain” is “perileipomai” and means, “to be left over, to leave over, to survive.” What else could it be from which they survived but the great tribulation?

        Lord bless

    • Faith Contender

      That last character was supposed to be : D
      but alas…!
      Not to mention that Jesus fulfills all the feasts, the 3 spring feasts, unleavened bread, passover, firstfruits (crucifixion, resurrection) and pentecost was fulfilled, the 3 fall feasts are after the church ‘age’ at the end times (any minute now…) but all are by Him.
      Ah… so many bible treasures… so little time!

    • Marian

      This post coherently explains what would otherwise be contradictions in scripture!

      Regarding Luke 23:43… I thought (or maybe I didn’t really think about it) paradise was just another word for heaven. Is it more like a state of being with Christ until the rapture, when those “asleep” are joined to their eternal body?

      I was taught that there is no time in God’s economy, so no time passes between our (the saints) death and the rapture, even though time is passing on this earth… like it seems time isn’t passing when we’re asleep. Time isn’t linear. That’s how the thief on the cross could be with Christ “today.”

      It’s quantum physics. Am I close? Can you clarify or add to my pondering?

      • A Trober

        There was no punctuation in the original Greek.

        To make it compatible with what is revealed about the plan of salvation, move the comma to after the word “today”.

        The declaration was that day. The Word of God reveals when that would take place per all the other points in the Bible on the plan of salvation, it’s chronology and milestone events.

        Your economy point is correct. The Bible says the dead are “sleeping”, they are “asleep in the dust”, they are souls that are not alive, they know nothing. And, only the traditions of men teach otherwise.

        So it is true, the dead have the very next moment of time awakening in a resurrection. Either a first resurrection. Or a second resurrection.

        Dying and going to heaven or hell are not in the Bible. Dante started that with uninspired interpretation of scripture. And, the Protestant Reformation let it sneak in rather than go back to every Word of God.

        • Marian

          Thank you for your response!! Blessings to you.

        • Michael

          Luke 16:22-31; Mark 9:43-48

      • @Marian

        Paradise was located in the heart of the earth:

        Jesus told the thief on the cross TODAY he would be with him in paradise (Luke 23:43 KJV).
        However, Jesus was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights after he died and rose again (Matt 12:40 KJV)

        Unless Jesus lied to the thief, Paradise was located in the heart of the earth.

        • Marian

          Thank you for pointing out what is so easily overlooked! I appreciate your commentary!

        • A Trober

          Even a casual word study will prove this assertion false.

          Literally, “paradise” is a garden. The garden of Eden was “paradise”. But, the presence of God made it just that.

          2 Cor 12:3-4 Paul was caught UP to paradise. Not down.

          The word “today” in Luke 23:43 does not refer to the thief being in paradise that very day. There was no punctuation in the original Greek. God has already revealed WHEN those dead in Christ will rise – and that NO ONE is alive today other than Enoch. As well as God gave the milestone markers in Lev 23, the temple rituals and expounded on them throughout the Bible all the way through Revelation as, EXPLICITLY, the chronology WHEN one will be in paradise.

          Jesus was in the grave three days and three nights cut off from God. He experienced death. For us all. And, that my friend, is no paradise.

          The thief will be in the first resurrection. You have a LOT of Bible pages to tear out and throw away to say otherwise. 😉

          peace.

        • Pete

          Jimmy, //Jesus told the thief on the cross TODAY he would be with him in paradise (Luke 23:43 KJV).//

          The heart of the earth is the grave, Jimmy. The word for “earth” there is the “ground” or the land. Not the spherical ball planet. Jesus did not go to the bosom of Abraham. Or to heaven. Or to the garden of Eden. You are really stretching this.

          Secondly, the Greek has no punctuation, so the comma could very well be in the wrong place. We could read the verse like this, too:

          And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

          Or without commas at all:

          And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    • Leonard

      Question 1. Bro Jimmy, the following suggests that the dead sleep until the resurrection.
      1 Thessalonians 4:13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14:For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15:For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16:For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18:Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

      Question 2: The requirement for animal sacrifices expired upon the reformation (adoption of the new covenant).
      Hebrews : 9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10: Which stood only in meats and drinks, and diverse washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them UNTIL THE TIME OF REFORMATION.

      Question 3 has me stumped;

      Question 4: The two new commandments—supplanting the original 10, requires we only love one another and God.
      Matthew 22: 36-40
      36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
      37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
      38 This is the first and great commandment.
      39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
      40 On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

      Question 5: Looks like it’s POSSIBLE to lose one’s salvation—if getting blotted out of the book of life counts as losing salvation:

      Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

      • A Trober

        Anyone can lose salvation by CHOOSING to do so.

        Mankind’s free will is never compromised throughout scripture.

        You cannot lose your salvation by worrying about not doing enough, etc. The fact one is worrying about it shows they are repentant. It is those who refuse salvation that lose it.

        And, you most definitely CHOOSE to walk away from Christ after being saved:

        “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” Heb 6:4-6

        If you’re worrying about losing salvation because of some sin your life: the worrying shows you’re not lost.

        • Marian

          It’s very hard for me to accept that God can lose one of his own… he’s God, after all. Ephesians 1:13 says we are sealed. Our momentary failings (which can last an indefinite amount of time) because of our sin nature surely don’t allow Satan to snatch us out of the hands of our Heavenly Father. That implies Satan can steal from God… a sovereign God.

          Psalm 139:5 implies that God controls his children’s circumstances to the point that his own can’t get beyond his reach… and this is before the age of grace, so how much more so does this apply to Christians now?

          Regarding Heb 6:4-6, a former pastor explained that those who turn away are apostates, never having been saved, having accepted Christ intellectually but not spiritually… similar to Judas Iscariot. They are the fakers like the ones Jesus will say he never knew even though their works seemed to indicate salvation (Matthew 7:23).

          When asked “how can I really be certain I’m saved?” this pastor asked, “does God answer your prayers?” referring to Psalm 66:18. That seems to be a reliable test. The saved person is not likely to habitually pray selfish prayers that are outside of God’s will and the unsaved person is guilty of the sin of denying Christ. And, of course, there’s I John 5:13.

          As the debate goes on about God’s sovereignty and our free will, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. You sound very much like a Calvinist (TULIP). My beliefs lean toward Armenian. I believe God’s sovereignty limits our free will once we’re saved.

        • Michael

          New World Translation?

        • Jim Black

          Greetings TRober,

          You said, “Anyone can lose salvation by choosing to do so.”

          You may have a point.

          EPISTLE OF BARNABAS

          Wherefore let us take heed in these last days. For the whole time of our faith shall profit us nothing, unless we now, in the season of lawlessness and in the offenses that shall be, as becometh sons of God, offer resistance, that the Black One may not effect an entrance. (4:9)

          If we relax as men that are called, and we should slumber over our sins, the prince of evil receive power against us and thrust us out from the kingdom of the Lord. Moreover understand this also, my brothers. When ye see that after so many signs and wonders wrought in Israel, even then they were abandoned, let us give heed, lest haply we be found, as the scripture saith, many are called but few are chosen. (4:13,14)

          Thus, He saith, they that desire to see Me, and to attain unto My kingdom, must lay hold on Me through tribulation and affliction. (7:11)

          Why should the church today be exempted from tribulation?

          Lord bless

          • It is quite IMPOSSIBLE to “lose your salvation” seeing as you are not the one providing it or sustaining it. This type of skewed thinking arises from 1). reading unbiblical books like the “epistle of barnabas”, and 2). from failing to rightly divide the Bible as Paul commands us to do. If you can lose your salvation that would mean you are saved by works and not by grace. That is how it will be in the time of Jacob’s trouble but that is not how it is in the Age of Grace.

            Paul said that he was “persuaded” that NOTHING could separate the born again Christian from Jesus Christ, not even our own actions.

            “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38,39 (KJV)

            Further, Paul then says that at the moment of salvation we are “SEALED IN” by the Holy Spirit:

            “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)

            • Jim Black

              Brother Geoff,

              “Quite impossible?” Or “impossible!”

              You’re disagreement isn’t with me, but Barnabas, Paul’s close companion. Paul said, “And if children, then heirs – heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may be glorified with Him.”

              Is Paul saying we won’t be heirs if we don’t suffer with Christ? Therefore, “Arm yourselves with the sufferings of Christ….” (1 Pet. 4:1)

              There are lots of “professing Christians” (chinos) who believe they are “sealed, saved, born again, redeemed, etc. During the tribulation, their metal, and the metal of true Christians, will be tested in times of persecution, suffering and tribulation for Christ’s namesake. Many will fall away (Matt.24:9,10).

              You have this notion that nothing outside the KJV amounts to truth even if it agrees it. I think you need to repent of this way of thinking brother Geoff. Don’t you think it’s being a bit legalistic? Just a brother “correcting a brother.” (2 Tim. 2:25:)

              Lord bless

            • TWR

              @ Geoffrey
              I don’t understand what you mean. Salvation is conditional.

              Romans 11:22King James Version (KJV)

              22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

              If thou continue in his goodness is a conditional statement. There may be scriptures that seem to contradict this, but God doesn’t contradict his word. It is either our understanding, or misunderstanding of who is the subject of the conversation. Since gentiles are eventually cut off, that is self explanatory.

              Zephaniah 3:6-8King James Version (KJV)

              6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.

              7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.

              8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

            • A Trober

              Geoffrey: context

              Your reference in Romans is Paul speaking of believers in Christ, thus repentant.

              The Hebrew scripture I posted is speaking of those choosing to walk away.

              No where after conversion does God take away a person’s free-will. They are given the Holy Spirit to be given the strength to resist that will and overcome it. But, believers have to choose to use it.

              No believer trying to obey God is going to lose salvation. It is those who walk away willingly. Just as Jesus said, He prepared a banquet and many refused to come.

            • TWR

              @ Geoffrey

              How is it impossible to lose salvation that is not promised to you. Do you know what a conditional statement is?

              Romans 11:22King James Version (KJV)
              22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

              How can you have free and eternal salvation when there is a conditional statement? Is it possible you misunderstood Paul’s statement or who he made the statement to? When Jesus died for the Israelites (Hebrews 9:15), they were locked in. God, in Jeremiah 50:20 promised to forgive the sins of the Israelites.

              Romans 4:15King James Version (KJV)
              15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

              Gentiles were not under the law. We are not under the law. What transgressions that Jesus die for?

            • “It is quite IMPOSSIBLE to “lose your salvation” seeing as you are not the one providing it or sustaining it”.

              AMEN Geoffrey!! 🙂 And thank God it is not up to us to stay saved. Whew!

            • Pete

              If it’s our faith and then acceptance of Christ with our mouth that leads us to salvation, then why couldn’t our rejection of Christ lead to losing that salvation? I actually don’t know, I am torn on this point.

              I have known Christians who grew up with me, really truthfully believed, were saved at a young age via their Christian parents. Not faking it. Go off to college…start falling into sin….start listening to garbage….next thing you know they are atheists. Have renounced Christ entirely. They say hateful things about Him.

              Are they still saved? Really? Hard to understand that. Again…IF WE HAVE TO ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST TO BE SAVED….then why doesn’t our disassociation of Christ mean we lose it? Where does it say in the Bible that even if we TRY to lose our salvation, we cannot?

          • A Trober

            @Jim Black

            Hi Jim,

            the canonized scriptures support the fact anyone can choose to refuse salvation, both without ever having accepted it, or after accepting choosing to return to their former state. (No one can lose salvation by some other power than God doing so, or by a person not getting their act together enough.

            A person must repent. Literally, it means “turn”. As long as a person is facing toward Christ, so-to-speak, i.e. turned from their sins, even though they may (and do) struggle with some for years or decades…they are not lost, nor will they lose salvation.

            As for the Epistle of Barnabas, I do not accept it as inspired scripture. The reason: I believe God will prove to the world via character witness His Word was faithfully preserved throughout time. And, that word is only the canonized scriptures which I believe God guided to be used, and not others, per maintaining that witness.

            Any other way of life other than a competence character witness is inferior to God’s way of life. Therefore, God will not bow down to man’s “proof” tests nor will He do more than provide a reliable witness.

            Anything other than canonized scripture might be useful for study, such as Josephus, etc. But, it is not the infallible Word of God and must be treated as such.

            fwiw, that applies to a LOT of Protestant commentaries which delude many into believing the traditions of man rather than what the plain Word of God states.

            • Jim Black

              Hello brother Trober,

              “As for the Epistle of Barnabas, I do not accept it as inspired scripture. The reason: I believe God will prove to the world via character witness His Word was faithfully preserved throughout time. And, that word is only the canonized scriptures which I believe God guided to be used, and not others, per maintaining that witness.”

              Of course, I don’t accept the Barnabas quotes as inspired either, but as one whom is mentioned in the scriptures, and a close companion with Paul, I thought it was an interesting statement. It would be a bit difficult for me, at least, to think someone of his stature would say something that is not supported by scripture. There are some verses that appear to back what he is saying (Matt. 16: 24,25, 24:13, Luke 21:19, Rom. 8:17, Heb. 10:26-30).

              Lord bless

            • @ Trober

              “No where after conversion does God take away a person’s free-will.”

              Your statement is anti-biblical. Did you CHOOSE to be born into sin? Did you CHOOSE to be born in Adam’s sinful image? Once you were born physically, could you CHOOSE to be unborn to your birth mother?? Can parents CHOOSE to unborn their children? Or children CHOOSE to be unborn from their birth parents? OF COURSE NOT!

              “free-will” cannot undo your birth. If that were the case, Christ didn’t need to die for sinners; all sinners would’ve had to do to be saved was use their “free-will” to be “unborn” in sin.

              Once you’ve been BORN into Christ, you cannot be UNBORN AGAIN (John 3 KJV). Are you so foolish to believe that you can fleshy “cut yourself” out of God?? There are no verses of scripture that support your position.

            • @ Trober

              Please list chapter and verse that state the rich man in Hell in Luke 16 KJV was a parable.

        • Jim Black

          Hello brother Trober,

          Interesting point:
          “If you’re worrying about losing salvation because of some sin your life: the worrying shows you’re not lost.”

          This raises a few questions:
          1. What if one stubbornly refuses to repent of that sin? Expect the rod of God? A sin unto death? Not really saved?

          I’m wondering…..Is it possible for a true believer to deny Christ under harsh persecution, suffering or tribulation?

        • A Trober,
          You are wrong about the Hebrews passage. It is refering to the Hebrews who experienced all of those things (tasted of the heavenly gift etc) while under the law. Then when Christ came they rejected Him as their savior and God. Crucifying Him afresh.

          They fall away by clinging to the law thereby rejecting Christ. Law and grace do not mix. Rom.7:1-4 “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

          (Example) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

          So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

          (Proof) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God“.

          • TWR

            Some of the responses here are unbelievable. If people would evaluate their own teachings and responses on an intellectual level they would see how unintellectual they sound. The Torah (instruction) was given to protect the sanctity and integrity of the human race. The Torah is a piece of who God is. It is his instruction. It is forever. There are statutes and judicial decisions. The statute in Leviticus 18:22 says man must not lie down with man as he does a woman. It is an abomination. This protects man. Men cannot procreate and perpetuate the species. You don’t get the judicial decision until Leviticus 20:13. That is the ordinance that was abolished.

            For one to say you are falling away by clinging to the law is rejecting Christ is a total lack of understanding. Keeping the law as a sole means of staying in the grace of God was foolish. To be under the law meant you had to carry out God’s judicial decisions (Levit 18:5). If you continued to carry out judicial decisions, you also had to live by them. Being under the law actually required them to be the law.

            The Torah and the covenant are not synonymous. The Torah didn’t come about as a result of the covenant. When the new covenant was made, it didn’t affect the Torah, just the covenant. If Christians believe God sent his son to die so you could erase his statutes such as incest, sodomy and bestiality, that is not the God of Israel. If keeping God’s statutes were wrong, why didn’t Jesus sin? Why didn’t he come down here and show us even occasional immorality was ok? He did the exact opposite. How are you suggesting Christianity is Christ-like?

            How can you suggest eternal security while suggesting the commandments of the God who can provide it have no place in our lives? Jesus did all the work for us. By following the commandments of his father is somehow a rejection of him. It sounds foolish and Satanic. It sounds like someone is trying to use Jesus to undermine all of God’s work. Jesus, in Matthew 19:16-20 says if thou will enter into life, keep the commandments. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. So, Christians aren’t using the words of God or Jesus. They are using interpretations of Paul’s words to undermine the true faith.

            1 John 2:4King James Version (KJV)
            4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

            From what I have read, I don’t believe there is a clue here as to what salvation is or how to obtain it.

            • Leonard

              Howdy, TWR! The old covenant (10 commandments) was replaced by Jesus’ 2 commandments: Consider:
              Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah .32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord.
              Hebrews 8:13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

              New Covenant: 3 perspectives
              Matthew 22: 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.40 On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets.
              Mark 12:28: And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? (29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
              Luke 10:25-28: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? (27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

              The old law was no longer of relevance:
              Acts 15:24:Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”

              Galatians 5:1: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

              Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

              Blessings to all…

            • TWR,
              You said “The Torah is a piece of who God is. It is his instruction. It is forever”….. Don’t look now, but your idolatry is showing again.

      • @Leonard

        Thanks for your reply.

        Question 1: Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8 KJV). Last time I checked, the Lord was not still sleep in the grave (if he is WE”RE IN TROUBLE), he’s seated at the right hand of the Father (Acts 7:56 KJV)

        Question 2: That’s an open admission that salvation is not the same throughout the entire Bible.

        Question 3: That’s because salvation is not the same throughout the entire Bible.

        Question 4: That did not answer the question. However if we were to go by your answer, Jesus says “love” is required for eternal life while Paul says Eternal life is not by works of righteousness which we have done (including loving one another). Can you Biblically explain the two plans for eternal life?

        Question 5: Without obeying God’s commandment to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15 KJV), you are now stuck at calling the Apostle Paul a liar (Eph 1:13 KJV) which is turn is calling Jesus a liar because Paul received his revelation from Christ (Gal 1 KJV).

        Bro Grider has several great articles that will help you understanding the proper divisions in God’s word.

        • Leonard

          Thank you for your response! Perhaps you could help me to better understand. Question 1: Are the spirit and soul not the same? Thessalonians 4:13 suggests that the dead are “sleeping”, yet the following scriptures indicate that the dead ARE dead.. Maybe you can shed light here: James 2:26 – For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
          Genesis 35:18 – And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
          2: Do you mean the children of Israel are granted salvation in some other way—not of grace? Wouldn’t they have had to live a completely sinless life? Could anyone have done that—my belief was that God offered the new covenant because the children of Israel were perceived to be incapable of living up to the 10 commandments. What am I missing—can you offer any scriptures to help me to better understand?
          Question 4: I guess I didn’t see having love for others as an act of “work”, but more a state of mind based upon the action of the Holy Spirit within the Christian. What am I missing?
          Question 5: I guess I’m confused, here. If Jesus promises NOT to blot out one’s same from the Book of Life, my assumption is that it’s possible He could, which I thought meant that individual would lose their salvation. Is this not correct? Could not a person, once saved, reject Jesus, perhaps after suffering a loss or disappointment in life, or some dramatic change in one’s philosophy, lose their salvation? What scriptures have I overlooked, here?

          • @Leonard

            The spirit and the soul are not the same as Biblically defined in Gen 2:7 and 1 Thess 5:23. When you die, your body goes to a hole in the ground, your spirit (which is the breath God gave you at birth), goes back to God (Luke 23:46 / Eccles 12:7 KJV), and your soul goes to Heaven or Hell dependent upon the choice you made on earth (See rich man in Luke 16 KJV)
            The children of Israel were mandated to offer animal sacrifices for their sins (read Leviticus). If Israel was granted salvation by grace through faith alone (like today), they would’ve been no need for animal sacrifices; they sacrificed because they could not keep the law (read Deu)
            Here’s what you’re missing: Salvation today (according to Paul’s gospel) is solely based upon what Christ did. Not what YOU did or YOU have to do, It’s solely what HE did. As soon as you point the finger at YOU (i.e. YOU have to love, YOU have to keep commandments, YOU have to endure) you are preaching another gospel that the Apostle Paul never preached.

            5: The problem with being ignorant of 2 TIm 2:15 KJV (no offense), is that you mistakenly steal scripture that is written to the Jews or to someone in the time of Jacobs trouble and apply those verses in the church age. The body of Christ is eternally secure in Christ; so when you see verses about someone’s name being blotted out, it is not referring to the body of Christ; it is either referring to someone in the time of Jacob’s trouble or in the millennial. This is the reason why God commands us to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth. If you don’t, you appear as a workman the needeth to be ashamed.

            One of the primary scriptures you’ve missed is John 3 KJV. Once you’ve been born in the family of God, you can’t be “unborn”. It is easier for you to be unborn in the flesh by climbing back into your mother’s womb than it is for you to be unborn out the family of God. You may be a good son of God or a bad son of God, but you’re born again based on what Christ did, not you. Even if you change your philosophy (if you were saved) Christ STILL will not deny himself. (2 Tim 2:13 KJV)

            • A Trober

              Hi Jimmy

              and your soul goes to Heaven or Hell dependent upon the choice you made on earth (See rich man in Luke 16 KJV)
              that parable is about judgement, not chronology.

              You would have to toss all the scripture on God’s calendar, Holy Days, temple rituals as well as scores of verses included an all-out discussion of where the dead are today in Hebrews 11.

              Judgement does not take place at death. It takes place at the return of Christ and there is a second resurrection with a judgement. That is why Christ said He would “raise him up on the last day” That’s the Last Great Day of the Feast of Tabernacles and all the Jews there in hearing range knew what He meant. Today, mainstream Christianity does not keep nor know these milestones and thus confuses tradition, Dante’s Inferno in this case, with scripture.

              It is true the spirit returns to God. But, it is also true it knows nothing, and will be reuinted with souls that “sleep in the dust” as is stated in several places in scripture, as well as again, the Holy Days point out the milestone markers.

              To the day Christ was sacrificed on Passover. To the day the Holy Spirit was given on Pentecost. And, to the day Trumpets, Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles will be fulfilled.

          • TWR

            @Leonard

            Howdy. Many people make the mistake of believing the law and the covenant are one and the same. A covenant is a mutual agreement. The covenant was actually made with Abraham. Israel was in the presence of God for 40 years. He taught them his commandments statutes and judgments. They were already his people. People try to hard to tie the law and the covenant together. That is one of Satan’s tricks. You automatically believe when the covenant with Israel was replaced, the law was replaced with it.

            There are 613 commandments. The question was which is the great commandment. The two Jesus gave were the two most important, and they provide the basis for which all the commandments were created. They are not a replacement. If you keep these two everythingelse is a piece of cake.

            I love the Acts 15:24 reference. Paul and the disciples were not present. Some of the Jewish elders came to the decision as to what the necessary things were for gentiles. This never came from Paul. They sent for Paul, Barnabus, Judas and Silas to confirm. On the way back, Paul was travelling with a Greek man, which he circumcised himself.

            Acts 16:3King James Version (KJV)
            3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

            Acts 21:20King James Version (KJV)
            20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

            Israelites kept the law out of obligation. Jesus provided a different path to salvation. He lifted that burden from them. His blood purchased their release. Keeping the commandments is not keeping the law. Keeping the law is executing judgments or judicial decisions (Leviticus 18:5). Leviticus 18:22 is the statute and 20:13 is the law. There is a difference.

            Colossians 2:16 means let no man dissuede you from doing these things because they are a forshadow of things to come. Gods commandments were not just for Israel.

            Leviticus 18:26King James Version (KJV)
            26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you

            When you became fellow citizens (Ephesians 2:19), you were grafted in to the root to sojourn with Israel. Israelites weren’t converting to Christianity. God made a new covenant with Israel. Why would they convert to Christianity?

            Romans 11:18King James Version (KJV)
            18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

            Constantine and the Vatican have created their own religion by twisting Paul’s words. If people really wanted to understand, it’s not hard. Christians would rather believe what they hear instead of doing their own research. They are looking for immortality, not salvation. Many will be disappointed.

            • Leonard

              Howdy, TWR! I’ve been in a number of arguments with members of my old church (SDA) over this very issue. They try to “explain” what the Bible “really” means, by not actually reading what it has to say. By my reading, we are neither under the old covenant/ten commandments, nor under the Jewish law based upon them. I base my argument upon what The Bible actually says:

              Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. AND HE WROTE UPON THE TABLETS THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
              Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah .32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord.
              Hebrews 8:13: In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
              Galatians 2:21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COME BY THE LAW, then Christ is dead in vain.
              Galatians 5:1: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, whosoever of you are JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW, YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

              Peace…

      • Leonard,
        You said “Question 5: Looks like it’s POSSIBLE to lose one’s salvation—if getting blotted out of the book of life counts as losing salvation:

        Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels”.

        This passage is better understood when you consider what God’s will is for the whole world. He desires that all men would be saved. 2 Peter3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”.

        This being said, we can understand how all names start out written in the book of life. It is our choice to trust in Christ or not to trust Him that determines whether our name remains or is blotted out.

        Blessings:-}

    • Martus

      *Before Christ died for our sins nobody could be taken to Heaven because the payment had not been made instead they were kept in Hades protected and cared for with Abraham till that price was met with Jesus’ death.

      Revelation 1:18
      I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

      *Due to sin all mankind was destined to Hell under the control and torment of the Devil but Jesus gave His life for all mankind and those that held onto Jesus had their sins paid for through Jesus’ perfect sacrifice.

      Luke 16:23-26New International Version (NIV)
      23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

      25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

      Psalm 68:18New International Version (NIV)
      18 When you ascended on high,
      you took many captives;
      you received gifts from people,
      even from the rebellious—
      that you, Lord God, might dwell there.

      1 Peter 3:18-20New Century Version (NCV)
      18 Christ himself suffered for sins once. He was not guilty, but he suffered for those who are guilty to bring you to God. His body was killed, but he was made alive in the spirit. 19 And in the spirit he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who refused to obey God long ago in the time of Noah. God was waiting patiently for them while Noah was building the boat. Only a few people—eight in all—were saved by water.

    • Allan Rowley

      Do not believe in the “cheap grace” of Constantine. The Feasts of Yahuah and the Torah/10 commandments were given as instructions for the bride in righteous living. If you believe one can break the commandments in unrighteous living you are deceived. Yahuah is looking for believers walking after Yahusha who have forsaken their lives and who hate the world. In the Millenium where Yahusha will rule with an iron rod (Rev 19:15) there will be no rebellious person. The saints have the name of Yahuah/YHWH on their forehead (REV 3:12; 7:3; 9:4 AND 22:4).

      • Tough road attempting to earn your way into Heaven by living a life of sinless perfection (if you are currently sinless). FYI, even if you could make it to Heaven that way Jesus would throw you out (John 10:1 KJV).

        I’ll settle for the sinless blood atonement from the Lord Jesus Christ to pay for my sins.

        • It is impossible to “work” your way to heaven in ANY dispensation, REPENT JIMMY. “With men this is impossible…. Matt. 19:26, Mark 10:27,

          The thief next to Jesus, was “absent from his body and was present with the Lord”, So, those hyper-dispensational fences and barriers of your’s didn’t keep him from the Gospel Paul taught, right? Saved by faith in God’s Grace, no WORKS, right? Repent, Jimmy.

          O.T. saints went to hell if they didn’t continue animals sacrifices? FALSE. The blood of goats and bulls NEVER TOOK AWAY SINS Hebrews 10:4. 11 (O.T.sacrifices and priest’s activities were temporary, repent, Jimmy.). Those were temporary, “remembrances” of sins that ‘temporarily’ cleansed the “flesh” only, delivering them from early graves, never made them ‘righteous’ internally, or eternally, and never determined an individuals final, eternal destination. REPENT, JIMMY

          Once again, FAITH saved O.T. saints, to a ‘righteous standing’ before God; an unconditional Salvation plan of GRACE under Abrahamic Covenant. Romans 4 where David was also ‘declared righteous’ Romans 4:6-8. Being declared “righteous” by FAITH was an O.T. doctrine you seem to know nothing about, or a doctrine you would rather not talk about. Repent, Jimmy. So, to answer your first 2 falsehoods: There was NO DIFFERENCE–both saved by FAITH in GOD’s GRACE. REPENT, JIMMY

          “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 (KJV)
          “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) Both these verses are GRACE SALVATION passages. REPENT jIMMY

        • Matthew 19:16-26 Jesus is NOT teaching Salvation by “keeping the commandments”. As a matter of fact, Jesus is teaching the opposite– The question to Jesus was “…Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Verse 17 Jesus tells the young man, “Why callest thou me good? there is NONE GOOD, but one, that IS GOD.

          So, you missed this too, Jimmy? There is “NONE GOOD”, why would Jesus say this if He was teaching Salvation is by “keeping the commandments”?? “YE DO ERR NOT KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES”. REPENT, Jimmy.

        • Interesting, that you can take pleasure being IN CHRIST, and be saved freely, but then deny, that same free Grace to others between Peter ‘gospel’ and Paul’s so-called mystery gospel, and then deny the tribulation saints God’s grace and free salvation assigning them to WORKS, which NEVER SAVED ANYONE. I am certainly glad you are not calling the shots, Jimmy..REPENT. Peter preached the SAME GOSPEL at Pentecost, that JESUS told him the preach in Luke 24:44-49, or are you saying Peter disobeyed Christ command to “preach repentance and remission of sins” TO ALL NATIONS, beginning at Jerusalem”. You have added “baptism” (WORKS) to the salvation plan, that Jesus never told Peter to preach, See: Luke 24:44-49. Peter preached “repentance and remission of sins” at Pentecost, and preached the SAME THING to Cornelius, as Jesus commanded him to in Luke 24:44-49. REPENT, JIMMY. Paul’s “mystery” had already been revealed to ALL the APOSTLES (plural) BEFORE Paul was even saved! Luke 24:44-49.

          Ephesians 3:1-5 Paul CLEARLY states the “mystery” of the “dispensation of GRACE”; “which in other ages was NOT made known to the sons of men, IS NOW revealed unto His HOLY APOSTLES (plural) and prophets by the Spirit.” Paul even stated in Romans 16:7 the PETER WAS “IN CHRIST” BEFORE HE WAS. PROVING, “the Body of Christ”, (THE CHURCH), was already started before Paul was even saved!

          I CHALLENGE JIMMY RANDOLF, GEOFFERY GRIDER, and NTEB or any other takers, TO REFUTE GOD’S WORD, SPOKEN HERE BY PAUL THAT THE “MYSTERY” WAS KNOW AND PREACHED BY ALL THE APOSTLES, FIRST COMMANDED BY JESUS< HIMSELF IN LUKE 24:44-49, and THEN BY SPECIAL REVELATION, TO PAUL LATER, BECAUSE PAUL WAS NOT SAVED YET, AS ONE “BORN OUT OF DUE TIME”. 1Corinthians 15:1-8

      • A Trober

        We know Constantine was not led by the Holy Spirit because he ordered persecution for non-believers.

        “But love your enemies, do good to them” Lk 6:35 (as well as Matt and Mark record the same quote).

        Constantine’s vision was a political ploy, because what he did thereafter does not align at all with the Holy Spirit.

    • Crissy

      “IF SALVATION IS THE SAME FOR EVERYONE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BIBLE, THEN:
      Why didn’t Old Testament saints go straight to Heaven after they died like New Testament Christians do?
      One of the hallmark attributes of a Christian is that because we are born again, we go immediately to Heaven when we die with no stops in-between. The Church Age has lasted so long we just assume that it was like this for all the saints who came before us. But not so.

      The Thief on the Cross had the wonderful good fortune to die at the side of the Saviour of the whole world. That got him into Paradise but not Heaven right away.
      “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 (KJV)
      “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV”

      What would be the difference between Luke 23:43 quoted above and 2 Corinthians 12:4, did Paul and the thief on the cross go to diferent places called “Paradise”.?
      I would appreciate your input.

      • Crissy…

        To answer your question…

        They both went to the SAME place. Paradise just moved it’s location. It was in the Garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve sinned, it moved to the center of the earth, and when Christ arose, it went up with him beyond the second heaven (into the third–II Corinthians 12:4–as you quoted)…

        8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4)

        I wrote a similar article about this that asks the question…

        http://www.boazbaptist.com/apps/blog/show/10525409-was-the-thief-on-the-cross-in-the-body-of-christ-

        Pastor Bob
        (Not pastoring today)

      • A Trober

        Here is where Ancient Israel will end up in the future:

        “(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) ” Rev 20:5

        The Old Covenant never offered salvation. And, that is explicitly stated throughout scripture.

        ONLY the New Covenant offers salvation.

        Ancient Israel will be resurrected in the second resurrection along with everyone else who was not in the first resurrection. They will be judged on The Last Great Day, which is the Great White Throne Judgment, which is annually marked by the 8th day of the Feast of Tabernacles, also known as “the last day” to the Jews of Christ’s time:

        “I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:54

        Not one single saint (or OT patriarch, there are no OT saints) is alive today, not one has been judged (although when they are it will be acceptance), not one has received a reward, not a single one knows anything at all today:

        “These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.” Heb 11:39:40

        “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” 1 Thess 4:16

        The above is one-in-the-same the Feast of Trumpets, some year in the future. Which is one-in-the-same with Rev describing the resurrection.

        Peace.

    • MICHAEL

      WHY DIDN’T OT SAINTS GO STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN AFTER THEY DIED LIKE NT CHRISTIANS DO?
      -The a Lord Jesus Christ hadn’t died and spilled His eternal blood yet.
      -In the OT, sins could be remitted, but NOT REDEEMED. They were temporarily covered by the blood of bulls and goats, but NOT TAKEN AWAY (Ex 34:7; Heb. 10:1-4; Exodus 12; etc).
      -Luke 16:19-31 describes two compartments of Sheol, Hell and Paradise and that’s where the OT folks went; one of those compartments. The OT saints were in waiting for Jesus to shed his blood, die and then resurrect (called the FIRSTFRUITS in 1 Cor. 15:23).
      -When Christ comes up from the dead, HE empties Paradise and led “captivity (those in Paradise) captive” Eph. 4:8-13
      -Everything regarding Paradise, up to the resurrection of Christ, was down and not up. After Paradise was emptied, Paul could say “I was caught UP to third Heaven… 2 Cor. 12:2.
      WHY WERE OT SAINTS MANDATED TO SHED ANIMAL BLOOD AND BURNT SACRIFICES FOR SINS WHILE NT CHRISTIANS ARE NOT?
      -Hebrews 9:22 says, “And almost all things are BY THE LAW purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is no remission” (not redemption).
      -Hebrews 9:23 talks about “it was therefore necessary that the pattern of things IN THE HEAVENS should be purified with these; BUT the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these”. Then vs 24 contrasts CHRIST as the better sacricife.

      – The Law was “a shadow of good things to come”and that is spelled out clearly in Hebrews 9:11-15.
      -OT SAINTS HAD TO DO THAT BECAUSE GOD TOLD THEM TO DO IT, it covered sins temporarily, and became a foreshadow or TYPE of “better things to come; that is eternal redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ therefore Christians do not need the blood of bulls and goats.
      -Colossians 1:14 says, “IN WHOM WE HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS (Jesus Christ) BLOOD, EVEN THE FORGIVESNESS OF SINS.”

      WHY DID GOD NOT JUSTIFY THE WICKED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, BUT JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?

      – Because the sinless sacrifice hadn’t been offered yet. Exodus 12 (Passover) was a type of covering sins, but only temporarily (like the Priest entering the Holy of Holies once per year).
      -Jesus Christ, is now our PASSOVER (1 Cor.5:7) and HE BECAME SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN, THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM (2 Cor.5:21).
      -This is called the Doctrine of Propitiation (Rom. 3:25) which means Christ’s payment for sin on Calvary SATISFIED GOD AND HIS HOLINESS!
      – THEREFORE, GRACE SUPERSEDES THE LAW AND WE ARE JUSTIFIED BELIEVING ON CHRIST (Rom. 3:22-24)

      WHY DID JESUS SAY ETERNAL LIFE IS GIVEN THROUGH KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS BUT PAUL SAYS THAT ETERNAL LIFE IS GIVEN NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE.
      -The Rich up young ruler comes to Christ and asks, “Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life?” Mt. 19:16
      -since the emphasis is on the DO, there is something every man HAD TO DO before the crucifixion. (Mt. 5:28-31; 7:24; 16:24 Mt. Chapters 5-7; Zechariah 14 etc).

      – The OT is still in effect, so the question is a good question.
      – However, in this age, after the resurrection, there is something we MUST NOT DO (Rom 4:5, Gal 5:4 etc), there is SOMEONE ON WHOM WE MUST BELIEVE (Rom. 10:9-13)!

      WHY COULD THE HOLY SPIRIT LEAVE AN OT SAINT BUT IS SEALED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIAN?
      -in the OT, The Holy Spirit came on people, but DID NOT come inside to reside like Jesus’ discourse about him in John 14:16-22.
      -no man from Adam to Christ is born again. The new birth BEGINS WITH THE REGENERATING WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (Rom. 8:14-17; John 3:3-6; Titus 3:5).
      -in the OT, the Holy Spirit may come on a person and then leave (Saul), may come on a person, leave and then come back (Sampson) and David was afraid the Holy Spirit would leave him when in Ps 51:11 he says, “….take not thy Holy Spirit from me”.

      – in the NT, HE COMES INSIDE OUR BODIES TO DWELL! That’s why we are sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
      -also, the new birth brings in a dispensation in which the believer is made “an organic part of Jesus Christ”. (1 Cor 12; Gal. 3; Eph. 5)
      -And being IN CHRIST, (2Cor.5:17: Col. 2:10; Rom.7:1-4), the believer is part of a BODY that is eternally secure (John 14:16,17; 1 Cor. 1:8,9; 1 John 4:17; 2 Tim 2:11-13; Col. 3:3; Rom. 4:5-8; 5:9-18 etc)

    • Crissy

      @ Pasrtor Rob

      Tnank you.

      May the Lord continue to use you boldly for His glory.

      Blessings to you and your family

    • When rightly divided this is more proof of the differences between the dispensations.
      Blessings Geoffrey

    • Melody

      You have many question, have one for you, the man who betrayed Jesus did he go to heaven or did he go to hell. This would answer your questions if you can answer this,many of you would say he went to hell, yet he was born for this reason he came onto the earth to accomplish this task, God is the molder the potter we are just the Clay does he not have the right to do as he wants, yet if we Condemn The man who betrayed Jesus Christ even though it was no fault of his own he was born to do it. Would that not make God unjust and wicked. There are many things that we do not know as of yet, but what we do know our God is merciful, there’s many people we think made it to heaven which did not , and many we believe there was no hope for , when we get there we will be a surprise because they made it. Because God is a spirit he knows what you think and feel that is why he can tell you the beginning and the end ,you have the right to choose because of free will he just happens to know what you will choose ahead of time , you’re asking the question did the saints before us or the people before us make it to heaven , Jesus hadn’t died yet there was no salvation yet, doesn’t mean they were loss they just could not go to a certain place yet, The dimensions of this other world that we have not seen can be very confusing to the humans all we’ve seen so far is looking up into the sky and seeing stars billions and billions of miles away, yet this earth is our home, The place we will go to is out of our times and dimensions it’s a place like we’ve ever known. One last comment before I leave if you had the chance to trade places and become the person who betrayed Jesus would you do it ? Many of you will say oh heavens no, I say to you yes I would do it, why because without the man who betrayed Jesus Christ there is no salvation . Do you think maybe Jesus placed him in a special place, I think so

      • Melody,
        The fact that it was in God’s plan for Jesus to be betrayed does not negate Judas’ free will. It only shows that God sees the heart and knows who will act in such a way. Peter did something similar in denying Christ, as Jesus said he would, yet he gained forgiveness afterward. Judas was sorrowful afterward but not repentant. So he went and hanged himself in a display of no hope.

        The offer of salvation, no matter what a person has done, is to “whosoever will”. Therefore, Judas’ choice was a matter of free will, and not the imposition of God before he was born. Certainly, God knew his heart, but he still had a choice. As do we all.

        Blessings:-}

    • Leonard

      THANKS, Jimmy! I guess I’m having trouble “rightly dividing”–I only recently finished reading the entire Bible for the first time in my 60+ years. Have begun re-reading it, and am already noticing things that weren’t apparent to me during the first reading. I guess I grew up thinking that “Bible studies” were the path to Bible knowledge. The problem seems to be that they skip around from one chapter/verse/book to another, and another and another. They illustrate points of doxy, depending upon the denomination, but really don’t give you the whole Word. I’ll get there…

      • Jimmy

        @Leonard

        You’re welcome. It took me reading the entire Bible four times through to see and understand how and why God divides the ages. I’m working on an article explaining the reason why God places divisions in scripture…stay tuned.

        • A Trober

          Those “divisions” are summarized in Lev 23. Each holy day is a milestone marker in the plan of salvation.

          I doubt you would disagree Christ was crucified to-the-day on Passover?

          Or, the Holy Spirit was given to-the-day on Pentecost?

          then, follow through with Trumpets, Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles.

          peace.

        • hrgreenjr

          Lots of people read the Bible through several times and come up with all sorts of heresies! Get real, Jimmy you can’t answer these questions viably yourself. NOBODY was ever saved by keeping the law in the O.T. Abraham taught FAITH, before the Law was even given as the menas of salvation in God’s promises. The O.T. blood sacrifices were for “remembrance of sins” and by avoiding sin, physical health and wellbeing followed. It was their FAITH that saved O.T. Saints and that was GRACE. Those O.T.blood sacrifices purified the “flesh” not the ‘spirit’ and Could NEVER TAKEAWAY SIN. Hebrews 9:12-13, 14, 22. People in the O.T. were made “righteous”, and “Justified” in the eyes of God BY FAITH. Lot was called “just” and “righteous” before the law, BY FAITH. Romans 4 and 5 tell how Abraham was “justified” (made innocent) BY FAITH, and described DAVID as being “JUSTIFIED” the SAME way! So, Jimmy, better read your Bible through a few more times until you can rightly answer your own questions.

    • Paul’s message is summarized as this: “Moreover brethren, I declare uno you the gospel which I have preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:…”(1Cor. 15: 1, 2, 3, 4)

      “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming”. (1Cor. 15: 20, 21, 22, 23)

      So to answer what I think you are asking re. your 1st question…You yourself said it. 2 Cor. 5: 1 – 10 or Phil. 1: 20 -30. Or, when we are absent from the body it’s our Spirit that goes to be with the Lord.

      The levitical system was given to us as an example. “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” (Heb. 8: 7)
      God keeps His promises!!! “For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater, He swore by Himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.” (Heb. 6: 13, 14, 15)
      Jesus said that purposely to the ‘young rich man’ only. Jesus was teaching (Mark) a lesson. The young man was trying to be ‘perfect’. “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” (Matt. 19: 26b)
      Nothing changed. Whomever God judged for the Spirit of anyone to enter into Abraham’s bosom, (paradise) that Spirit entered. Until Christ came, and after three days He set them free.

      I’ve come to realize dispensations are for us, to teach us; not for God. What may appear to be ‘different’ is not. The people receiving the message is where the difference may come. But all in all, all scripture is for all of our benefits. If we patiently endure, every man in his own order and time, we will obtain the promise of salvation.

      What is Salvation?

      Justification
      Sanctification
      Glorification

      Where is the body of Christ? Well, if we are the ‘body’ of Christ we have been/or still some yet will be justified. For the most part we are being sanctified; awaiting glorification.

      Salvation unto Justification

      “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in the hope and the glory of God. (Rom. 5: 1, 2)

      Salvation unto Sanctification

      “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have warned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. (1Thess. 4: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
      “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2: 13)

      Then Salvation unto…

      “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

      For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

      Then we which are and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

      Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” 1Thess. 4: 15, 16, 17, 18)

      …Glorification.

    • Abraham was saved before the Old Covenant ( Law), before circumcision and after circumcision, before the New Covenant (Grace). Was he saved ? Yes, how was he saved? Romans 4:13-16. Everything is the Old Testament was must types and shadows of what was to come ( Col 2:.16-17). All we have to do is look back at Father Abraham for an example of faith and grace in salvation. The promise seed was Christ and if you are in him then you too are heir to everything. It is really quite simple. Why make it so complicated. GRACE in the Old, GRACE in the New. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises. The covenants made with national/ethnic Israel was conditional, but promises or covenant God made with Abraham was unconditional.

      • hrgreenjr

        Good stuff jrt0856!

      • Good stuff! God bless His Word! You’ll never see Jimmy deal with these verses unless he twists them like all the other scriptures. Lots of O.T. saints being made “righteous”, “found Grace in God’s eyes” “just Lot”, Lot vexed his “righteous soul”. Abel was “righteous BY FAITH”. Abraham “justified with out works” Romans 4:5 all examples of new testament GRACE. NTEB is full of hot beans!

      • Pete

        Amen jrt0856 – and furthermore, the only reason any of the types and shadows of the sacrifices had any merit, was because they pointed to Jesus Christ. The modern dispie framework doesn’t know what to do with Jesus. They relegate His work on the cross to the sidelines, the backup plan for Gentiles. Not really the plan for Israel. Blasphemy!

    • Pete

      Pastor Bob, I am not necessarily disagreeing with your article on the thief but it’s been bothering me lately about what actually transpired at the cross there. You write (on your blog) //Did this penitent thief fit those qualifications…? Absolutely! First of all, he called Jesus “God.” Secondly, he openly confessed his sin. And last, while asking Jesus to “remember” him when He came into His kingdom, he called Him “Lord.”//

      Yes, the thief did say Jesus was God. Did he openly confess his sin? That’s debatable. First of all, he never confessed his sin TO JESUS or to GOD. He told the other thief “we deserve what we got, this man does not.” Is that the same thing? I am not sure. People can know that prison is the reward for robbing a store at gunpoint. That doesn’t mean they are convicted of it. Those guys go right out and do the same thing again, all the time. And the thief never looked at Jesus and said “I am a sinner, please forgive me.”

      Also the thief never ASKED Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom. He TOLD Jesus to remember him. Big difference. And the thief called Jesus Lord, but that is not a qualification for being saved. Many shall say “Lord, Lord” in that day.

      I have to say, I don’t really know what happened to the thief or what Jesus meant by “I say unto you today thou shalt be with me in paradise.” I don’t believe Jesus went to paradise when He died, I think it’s safe to say since He compared Himself to Jonah (who said he himself went down to the grave), that he was in the grave for 3 days. Same place we all go. Jesus went into the miry pit for us.

      Sine the comma was added to the English version of Luke 23:43, we don’t know if Jesus really might have been saying “I say unto you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” Similar to, “I say unto you now, thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

      Thoughts?

      • Romans 10:9-10, 13 This is the Bible. It is in thy mouth and in thine heart. There are no prerequisites except being a self-confessed sinner, in need of a Saviour. The thief was saved at the promise of Jesus Christ own words. “Souls” (un-resurrected, spirits) under the alter in Revelation 6:9 had no mouths, or bodies, yet they cried, had emotions, were give robes to “wear”. I believe God–there is a “form” that departed spirits take with them in the spirit realm. That’s enough for me anyway, to prove Luke 16-31 is real and literal. I don’t believe this is heaven, or the lake of fire. “Sheol” had 2 compartment–departed believers went to a place of comfort and rest, while departed wicked went to “hades” place of departed with torments. Unbelievers without Christ, “is (are) condemned ALREADY, no judgment needed, for unbelief. The “great white throne judgment” Revelation 20:11, is not to determine whether your are condemned or not, it is to determine what “degree” of punishment one will suffer, according to their “works”. Jesus emptied part of “sheol’ taking “captivity captive” Eph. 4:8 at His resurrection. I do not believe in “soul sleep”. These few verses and many others debunk this notion.

        • TWR

          hrgreenjr

          To say there are no prerequisites is to totally ignore the words of Jesus himself.

          Matthew 19:16-19King James Version (KJV)

          16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

          17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

          18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

          19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

          If that is not a prerequisite, what do you call it?

          • Read carefully, Matt. 19:26. It is always proper to read the “whole” dialogue. When you do, you will see Jesus is teaching this rich young man he has a problem. He thinks he is “good”, but Jesus must convince him he is like all men; “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” so he can be saved.

            Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Right away, Jesus corrects him, “Why callest thou me good, THERE IS NONE GOOD, but one, that is God.” Did you miss this TWR? Jesus is telling him ‘you are not good’, only God is good. In otherwords, Jesus is trying to get him to see his real need–he needs forgiveness, but he thinks he has it all together and he can do good and merit eternal life. So, Jesus tells him, ‘Ok, you want to enter into life, “keep the commandments”. Which? Jesus list only 5 and half of the “great commandment”, “Love thy neighbor as thyself”. The rich ruler, says, ‘I have kept these from my youth up’ , what lack I yet? Jesus zeros in on his sin and tells him, ‘If you want perfection?, sell everything, give to the poor, and you’ll have treasure in heaven, then come follow me.’ Jesus proved this guy, was not good, because he went away sorrowful. He loved his riches more than God, didn’t want to sell his goods and give to the poor. So, TWR, Jesus was not teaching this guy how to save himself, he was telling him he was “NOT GOOD” and was trusting in his good works and riches, and needed to be saved! Jesus says it is “impossible” for a man by his own goodness and riches to gain eternal life. Bottomline, Jesus was not teaching that “keeping the commandments” would gain eternal life. He was showing NO MAN CAN POSSIBLY KEEP THEM! It is too late, we have all “broken” them–we need to trust Jesus Christ for salvation. Romans 10:1-10 tells us HOW.

            So, TWR, Are you going to throw Romans 10:1-10 under the bus, and be like the rich guy who thinks he’s good to keep the commandments and be saved?

          • TWR,
            God is a spirit and He is love. He certainly is not a legalist. He is not the law nor is He subject to it. And He gave the law to Israel and never to anyone else. You and Hrgreenjr are adulterers. And you both know why. Like the Pharisees who Jesus said were blind because they said they could see, so are you.

            To whatever degree you include the law in your salvation, it is to that degree you are subject to the miseries and wretchedness of Rom.7. I leave you both to it.

            • TWR

              Edwitness,

              Wrong again. Leviticus 18:26King James Version (KJV)
              26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, NOR ANY STRANGER that sojourneth AMONG YOU:

              Ephesians 2:19King James Version (KJV)
              19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

              The commandments are not the law. I can’t understand why you lack the mental capacity to process that. Apples and oranges are fruit, but you can tell the difference. Judicial decisions and statutes are not the same.

              Leviticus 18:4King James Version (KJV)
              4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ORDINANCES, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.

              Ephesians 2:15King James Version (KJV)

              15 Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

              The only thing abolished was ordinances. You can’t abolish God’s commandments. That is why the adulteress was not stoned. That is the ordinance. If you kept the law, you had to carry out the judgments. Most first graders can grasp that concept and understand the difference between a commandment and a punishment. I see you are not functioning on that level yet.

    • Pete, every scriptural manuscript evidence and common sense prove the comma, in Luke 23:43, goes BEFORE “To-day” NOT just in the English. There were MANY translations of the TR (textus receptus maniscripts) in foreign tongues prior to the English KJV in Europe that puts the comma, BEFORE “TODAY”. Only cults such as the JWs have twisted these punctuation marks to marr the doctrines God has put in His Holy Word.The “New World Translation” of the JW is a filthy wicked piece of satanic manipulation. They put the comma after “TO-DAY” because they do not want to believe there is a “soul” and spirit in man that is eternal and exists AFTER mankind physically dies. Common sense tells me Jesus was comforting a repentant sinner about to die any minute, hanging next to Him. What a wonderful Saviour is Jesus my Lord, while he bore the sins of the world, mine and your’s, was concerned and comforting ONE sinner about his future destiny, and blessed him by saying, “TODAY thou shalt be WITH ME in Paradise.”

      • Pete

        Jesus did not go to paradise, or heaven, when He died. He compared His death to Jonah being in the belly of the whale for 3 days (Matt 12:40). That is hardly a heavenly / paradise comparison. To say that there was a place in the center of the earth called “paradise” is laughable. Jesus was in the GRAVE for 3 days. He went into death for us. Jesus told Mary He had “not yet gone to His Father” when He arose. That means exactly what it says, He had not yet gone to His Father. The culmination of Jesus’ death and resurrecftion was His glorfieid body when He ascended and sat down at the right hand of God. He didn’t float around like a ghost in heaven for a while.

        You like to mock as if I believe something the “JWs” believe. Well, the entire notion of a soul/spirit that is separate from the body is GREEK in origin, not Biblical. We do not possess a soul that is separate from our body. We ARE a soul because we HAVE a body, with the breath of life (spirit) from God. Once the body dies, the soul ceases to exist with it. God will one day restore both the dead bodies of people from 1000s of years past (most of whom by now are scattered to the 4 winds as dust) and their souls.

        Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ will have their body AND soul destroyed in hellfire forever. (Mat 10:28).

        That’s what the Bible actually teaches. Not your fantasy Greek myth.

    • TWR

      @ hrgreenjr

      I don’t throw the word under the bus. I save that for doctrine. So, Jesus is trying to teach the young man he is a sinner. By definition (1 John 3:4) sin is transgression of the law. I believe there is a moral to the story but it was not trying to convince the young man he was not good, but he was somehow still lacking in his spirit. His objective was not to please or serve God. The sole intent of his works were for the purpose of achieving immortality, much like the majority of Christians today. You can’t look back at the code of conduct God presented to the Israelites and see this is what God requires of all who would call themselves his people. He I now to accept humanity on their terms. So, it wasn’t real forgiveness he needed, if he said he had kept the commandments from his youth. Jesus didn’t have to list all ten to let the man know which commandments he was speaking of. Jesus is not trying to dig something out of the man under false pretenses. If is a conditional statement which is the equivalent of a prerequisite. With the man, it was not the love of the Father and Son that fueled his intent.

      John 14:21King James Version (KJV)
      21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

      As far as Romans 10:1-10 goes, Christians have not subjected themselves to the righteousness of God. Because they lack accurate knowledge, they seek to establish their own righteousness. God gave the Israelites a code of conduct. That code of conduct is not the law. Torah has been mistranslated by the Greek word nomos, meaning law. Torah is instruction. The covenant and the law are separate. The covenant was established with Abraham. Upon it’s fulfillment through Jacob, they were instructed in God’s ways. There is no accurate passage of time recorded between when instruction was given, and punitive ordinances were placed within the code to assure compliance. The code of conduct was given to ensure the sanctity of the human race.

      Code – Leviticus 18:22 (KJV) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
      Law- Leviticus 20:13 (KJV) 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

      The code of conduct and the law that was abolished, fulfilled or finished are two entirely separate concepts. God’s code of conduct, not law, has been the foundation of our modern judicial system. The abolishing of the ordinances (Eph 2:15) allowed for the integration of Israelites and gentiles because the Israelites were not just sworn to keep the commandments and statutes, but uphold the judgments. They were basically considered law enforcement. As long as they walked in the statutes (Levit 18:4) they had to carry out judgment. That is the meaning of Romans 10:5. The punitive measures were done away with so we could exercise faith in God’s commandments and keep them without fear.

      Leviticus 18:26King James Version (KJV)
      26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

      Ephesians 2:19King James Version (KJV)
      19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

      The judgments were done away with. The statutes were not. The statutes were for Israel and any nation that sojourns among them. When gentiles were considered no longer strangers or foreigners, they fell up under the same code of conduct as the Israelites, other than what was specified. What was a sin or and abomination is still such in God’s eyes. He has not or will not lower his standards to receive you. Matthew 19 is not the only active prerequisite concerning the gentiles.

      Romans 11:22King James Version (KJV)
      22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

      The original converts embraced the code of conduct. It has just been since Rome took over the business of religion that God’s authority has been undermined.

      Acts 21:20King James Version (KJV)

      20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands (gentiles among the Jews) of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

      • hrgreenjr

        Colossian 2:14 Ephesian 2:15 Both nailed to the cross with Jesus. There are the 10 commandments Moses received by the ‘finger of God on stone’ on Mt. Sinai, and the second are the “commandments contained in ordinances”, written on parchments by Moses, and stored in a compartment on the Ark. Anything other than the 10 written in stone tablets, were “nailed to His cross”, because “they were AGAINST US, and were “CONTRARY TO US”, and “TOOK IT OUT OF THE WAY”‘ Gone, gone, gone…Bottom-line, in the story in Matt. 19, the guy simply had not kept the 10 commandments—he thought he did or had convinced himself he had, but Jesus taught him differently. “THERE IS NONE GOOD”. His god was his self-righteousness and riches, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Ex. 20:3, anything else is adding to the scriptures. As believers in Jesus Christ we are no longer under the 10 commandments for personal righteusness, mainly because Paul taught “the law kills” people spiritually, because no one could keep them perfectly according to God’s standards. 2Cor.3:6, Romans 7:11 (it deceives, just like it did to the rich ruler in this story!) The law then, becomes “our schoolmaster, to lead us the Christ.” Gal. 3:24-25 We have “HIS (Christ’s) RIGHTEOUSNESS” imputed to our record BY FAITH. Romans 3:23-25, Romans 10:1-4 (especially read verse 4) Philippians 3:9, 1Cor.1:30, 2Cor.5:21. So, there is no fuss; you will either trust in your own righteousness under the law and fail, or confess your sin and come to Jesus Christ and get HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and be saved!

        • edwitness

          Hrgreenjr,
          You are just as wrong here as you were on the other post. Nothing in the passage about the rich ruler says that he did not keep the law. In fact, Jesus’ answer implies that He knew the young man did keep them. As any Jew was supposed to. That is why His response was not an accusation saying he had missed one. He simply said that there was one thing more (than just keeping the law) to do in order for him to enter into life eternal.

          “The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? (Jesus did not refute his statement)
          Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect (complete), go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor (this was not required in the law), and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me”. Mt.19:20,21

          Jesus did not rebut the man’s statement that Jesus was good either. Jesus’ statement about “none good but God” was to help the man to realize who he was speaking with. God Himself in human form. And that meant that the young man was absolutely correct to call Jesus good. Jesus was emphasizing the point that He is God and He is good.

          You are a legalist that lives in adultery on a daily basis as does TWR and the rest of your cohorts. Repent of your idols. The law has nothing to do with salvation in the church age. Until you do you will not understand the scriptures.

          • TWR

            Edwitness,

            God is a legalist. He created the law to protect the sanctity of all mankind. There are commandments against incest, bestiality, homosexuality, adultery, rape, murder and theft. Is it legalistic to believe in these laws? You obviously don’t believe any of these laws should govern man. Is that what it means to be a Christian? When someone is punished for rape or murder, do you get upset at the legal system? Which one of God’s laws do you oppose? God’s laws are the basis for our own criminal justice system. Like I pointed out, God’s commandments are not laws. Leviticus 18:22 God commands men not to lay with men as with a woman. Leviticus 20:13 gives the judicial decision for breaking that commandment (death). That is the law. To make sure we were not deceived, Jesus gave us a personal demonstration of what he meant by the law being fulfilled and grace. Leviticus 20:10 says the adulterer and adulteress should be put to death without fail. Jesus did not put the adulteress to death because he was the fulfillment of the law. He told her go and sin no more, recognizing that she had still committed sin. As long as God rules this world, it will be ruled by those commandments. Just because judgment is carried out immediately, and by man’s hand, does not mean it will not be carried out. What was a sin and an abomination is still as such. You follow laws, rules and regulations daily. You are not opposed to the law. You are opposed to the God who created it. They could bring back Jim Crow laws and many would not complain. It is not law that bothers you. The parable of the rich man (Mt. 19:20) describes perfectly the state of Christianity today. You are checking the block to obtain salvation. There is no love for the Father and his will. Because Paul’s words have been twisted and misunderstood you somehow believe Jesus saved you from God’s instruction. I don’t think about raptures and heaven anymore. I think about pleasing God. If I’m legalistic it is because I am a reflection of God. The mystery of lawlessness is revealed. If 7 billion people decide they are going to keep God’s law to the letter, and 5 people decided they would not, those five people would rule the world. Unrighteousness is being eliminated. God is not going to compromise and do away with sin, he is doing away with the sinner. Those ordinances that were really called the law have been abolished in the church age, but God’s word is eternal. Until you understand that, you will never understand the scriptures.

    • Several flaws in your thinking. First, Jesus SAID, He went to paradise Luke 23:43, on the VERY DAY–“Today” is an adverb describing “when” in the verb phrase, “thou shalt be”, with Me in paradise”. To say He didn’t, that’s calling Jesus a liar, simple as that.

      2nd, Jesus was not likening His “death” to Jonah being swallowed by a whale, because Jonah DID NOT DIE in the fish.. Jesus was likening the LOCATION “where” he went. Jonah; in the “middle, matrix or cavity” or “belly” of the fish.” Likewise, Jesus went to the “center, middle, heart” of the earth. NOWHERE in scripture is the Greek word “heart” (καρδία) translated “grave”. Like Jonah went into the “middle, matrix, cavity, belly” of the fish, so, Jesus went to the “heart”, “center”, or MIDDLE of the earth. So, the idea is the “LOCATION”, not what was experienced. Once again, and “laugh” all you want, but Jesus SAID IT, and to argue otherwise, is to call Jesus a liar.

      3rd, Jesus’ “body” (grk. “soma”) went, temporarily, into the tomb of Joseph. The scriptures plainly teach that “as the body, without the spirit, is DEAD” James 2:26. So, according to the scripture, if a body is DEAD, the “spirit” has left it. If the “spirit” is with the body, it is still ALIVE. The logical conclusion, Pete, is Jesus’ “body” was dead, because His “Spirit” left His body and went into the “heart, middle, center” of the earth. Jesus did not immediately go to the Father when he resurrected his dead body, but told Mary “Touch me NOT”!. Being our High Priest, He could not be touched, before offering His Blood in heaven for us, to His FATHER. He was not a “ghost”. He had reunited with His body, resurrected Himself, met and spoke with Mary in HIS resurrected body. He then took His Blood to appear before the FATHER, for our “Justification” (forgiveness).

      4th, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray your whole SPIRIT, and SOUL, and BODY, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1Thess.5:23

      You have clearly stated, that the concept of “a separate, spirit,/soul and body is “NOT BIBLICAL” and “A GREEK MYTH”, But God says, you are wrong. This verse claims exactly what you are denying, Pete. We are a “LIVING” soul, while our ‘body’ is ALIVE. A “soul” exist with or without a body. See: Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4

      I am not mocking you, but the Jws do hold your same ideology about “paradise”–do you deny it? I really don’t care whether or not you think this is all “laughable”, but I would expect you to at least aknowledge these scriptures as God’s Words and not mine.

      • Pete

        hrgreenjreenjr, I do acknowledge those verses you posted and I further acknowledge that you make some compelling cases here for the view. I am still on the fence about whether people die and immediately go to heaven or hell, but I lean toward the teaching that we do not because there is more biblical evidence that we do not. If we ignore the English-placed commas entirely in what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, it could be read that Jesus was saying “I am telling you today…..you shall be with me in paradise.” It very well COULD be that.

        You nitpick about Jonah. My point was Jesus spoke about Jonah’s being in the whale’s belly with His being in the heart of the earth. I don’t think the whale’s belly was anything close to a paradise environment. Why didn’t Jesus simply say “As Moses dwells in the bosom of Abraham, so shall the son of man dwell there for 3 days?” He was making a point and it was far more deep than “I’m going to be dead for 3 days.”

        If you read Jonah you get a clearer picture perhaps of what Jesus meant.

        Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. (This actually is referenced by Peter in Acts 2:27).

        //So, according to the scripture, if a body is DEAD, the “spirit” has left it. I//

        That doesn’t mean the spirit is a separate conscious entity. If the blood leaves my body, I die too. That doesn’t mean my blood has a consciousness of it’s own either. Spirit is just “breath” in the Bible. Yes. If people stop breathing, they die.

        //and I pray your whole SPIRIT, and SOUL, and BODY,//

        Again, none of this proves that each is a separate conscious entity. All three of these things make up the entire, living person for sure, no argument there. But just like my arms and legs and head and torso make up my entire body, but are not separate living entities, so also are the mind, breath and body of a person. In my opinion people already have these Greek-influenced ideas in their mind and therefore they READ these verses with that bias.

        God will ultimately give us everlasting spiritual BODIES to live in. God views the BODY as important. The Greeks viewed the body as a lower part of the man, while the spirit and soul were higher entities. That isn’t ANYWHERE in scripture. There’s a lot more I could say but I will stop there.

        • Pete, you will have to steal the commas from all the english Bibles that preceeded the KJV, plus all the Bibles translated into European tongues before any of the English Bibles were translated. That could be well over 100 translations, by perhaps thousands Greek scholars of the highest calibre that have placed the comma BEFORE the word “TODAY”. The odds are certainly overwhelming against any other rendering, plus, you have God’s Holy promise that His Words (plural), and meanings would be perfectly “perserved” forever Psm. 12:6,7 . God used “holy men of God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit”, to write down what God told them to say. 2Peter 1:21 Once again, I challenge you to look at the context of Jesus reply to the “request” (prayer) of the dying thief. “Lord, remember me, WHEN thou comest into thy kingdom.” Notice the word WHEN in his request! In answer to the thief’s request of WHEN, Jesus chose the ADVERB NOUN “TODAY” to answer his prayer! It makes NO SENSE unless you place the comma BEFORE the adverb noun “Today”. The literal sense of the whole dialogue demands it that way. For someone who claims to be “sitting on the fence” I would think common sense and constraint would be the proper way to approach to dealing with GOD’S HOLY WORD.

          Here are a few more passages that prove there is conscienceness and existance beyond the physical body after death. Matt 17:3 find Moses and Elias standing with Jesus discussing His coming crucifixion. Moses and Elias (Elijah), a picture of the “Law and the prophets” appear, where Moses body was dead at the time, but here is MOSES. Tell me, Pete, was it his “SOUL” or his “SPIRIT”?; it certainly wasn’t Moses body with no resurrection happening, nor would God “fake” and create a pretended Moses for the occasion.

          Saul and Samuel– In 1Samuel 28:3 we find Samuel is “dead” and his body was buried in “Ramah”, his home-town, yet “Samuel” is brought up by God in “Endor” so it was not Samuel’s body that appeared to Saul. So, was it Samuel’s SPIRIT or his SOUL that appeared in Endor to Saul? If there is no activity, as you claim after death, what is happening here? 1Thess. 5:23 God says, there is a “triad” existance of man, and note each part is separated with a Greek conjunction “kia” making each one of them distinct from the other. Samuel even told Saul, that he (Saul) and his son would be killed the next day in battle and “BE WITH ME”. If there is no “soul or spirit” that exist after death, what did Samuel mean? There is only one logical answer here!

          Paul’s testimony, being ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND BEING PRESENT WITH JESUS. 2Cor. 5:6-8 Paul talks of no purgatory or crowded waiting room before being “absent” from the flesh and present with Jesus. Then there is Paul’s apparent, “out of the body” experience or “in the body”, which by Paul’s declaration could have been “either” 2Cor.12:2-3 God knew.. he saw and heard this “unlawful to be uttered”.

          Peter in Acts 2:27 was not a reference to “Jonah” at all. Read the context, it was a Psalm of DAVID prophesying, Christ death, and resurrection. Jesus used Jonah as a “type” not an exact duplication–Jesus body never saw corruption, yet Jonah declared he was “corrupted” and was brought out of it. Again the idea, was about LOCATION not the experiences. Jesus was God, Jonah was a human sinner running from God.

          James 2:26–God says ..”the body without the spirit is dead”. God is not lying, is He?? It does not matter what the “cause” of death is, when the body and spirit separate, YOU ARE DEAD, that is what God says. People stop breathing many times but are not dead, or their heart stops pumping blood, and they are not dead. Given enough time, yes. But doctor’s pronounce death when there is “no brain activity”. The SPIRIT is gone.

          Most of your proof references about death come from the O.T., specifically the book of “Ecclesiastes”. You will note Solomon’s references nearly all come from descriptions of things done “under the sun”, or physical life on the earth. When the body is dead, it does not see, hear, and the thoughts have “perished”. He is describing a dead body. In fact there are 27 passages where the phrase “under the sun” is used, and several refer to the dead body and its lifelessness, while “under the sun”. So, the view of life AFTER death is not Solomon’s focus. He spends much time discussing the “vanity” of attitudes and human activity ‘while living’ and the vanity “under the sun”. When you use it in an attempt to discredit passages about spiritual/soulish activity, you are doing disservice to what God says, in affect comparing apples and oranges. These are heavenly doctrines of God, and not Greek influenced traditions of men…

    • So, exactly as I had said, he had NOT KEPT THE LAW. Note what Jesus said, “THERE IS NONE GOOD” This phrase alone says he had already FAILED! JESUS SAID “IF THOU WILT BE PERFECT”, so the rich guy was not PERFECT. So, what is your fuss? IF, the young ruler HAD, kept the Law, he would BE PERFECT. And I believe the guy KNEW he had fallen short, because of his own words, “WHAT LACK I YET?” He had not the righteousness to be PERFECT, and Jesus proved it and he went away sorrowful, he simply COULD NOT STAND THE TEST. What makes you think anyone CAN? Jesus said, there IS NONE GOOD. I believe Jesus–

      • TWR

        hrgrennjr

        He had kept the law. That is confirmed. Jesus did not say he had not kept the law, it was his motives for keeping the law. My fuss is you are making up your own doctrine. If he kept all the laws since youth, it wasn’t keeping the law that made him imperfect. It was his heart. There is none good does not mean the law was ever kept. People give Jesus credit as the only one who has ever kept the law.

        Acts 25:8King James Version (KJV)
        8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

        Paul’s word is what you base your whole doctrine on. What is the difference between him and Jesus? The rich guy had no clue he had fallen short. He kept ALL the laws since childhood. His lack was motive, like most Christians. He was seeking eternal life, instead of pleasing God. Your assertation of the situation is based on faulty assumptions. It was a nice story, but there was no factual basis. It Is strictly what you want to believe. We fabricate stories based on our perception of the doctrine. Everything you said was a complete fabrication and not based on the word. He did keep the law. That was obvious. It was his motive for keeping the law that did not satisfy Jesus. Fabricated doctrine will not save anyone.

        • Once AGAIN, read the ENTIRE scenario. Jesus finishes the story by saying exactly as I have pointed out. The rich man had failed, and you cannot deny that, yet he was finally awaken to his error; the rich guy was trusting in his own works and riches and could not obey the WHOLE LAW; the very FIRST commandment of God, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before ME.” Jesus had to make this man realize *for himself * he COULD NOT KEEP THE WHOLE LAW. His attempts obey God and be PERFECT and enter into eternal life by his own righteousness FAILED! Obeying only 5 of God’s commandments, was not enough, AND HE KNEW IT: “All these (5) have I kept from my youth up, WHAT LACK I YET?”

          There was a reason why Jesus only mentioned 5 commands, which was actually MORE than just 5. “Love thy neighbor as thyself” covered at least 3 more: “No adultery, no killing, no stealing, not coveting”, the remaining had everything to do with his relationship TO GOD, HIMSELF, in which he failed the most. James 2:10 says: “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, yet offend in ONE POINT, he is GUILTY OF ALL.” That pretty much settles it; YOU BREAK ONE, YOU HAVE BROKEN ALL!

          Jesus, being GOD in the flesh, told the rich man “IF thou wilt BE PERFECT”, which is required to KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, “sell everything, give it to the poor, and follow ME”, he could not obey it, because he had “great possessions” and was trusting in them instead of God–that’s the bottom line. We are to have no other god’s before Jesus Christ. The rich man could not do it, “AND WENT AWAY SORROWFUL”. His self-righteousness and riches were his gods! And so it goes for ALL OF US; “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Rom. 3:23

          To further prove this, go to the parallel account of this same event in Mark 10:17-27. Here, Jesus tells the rich man “ONE THING THOU LACKEST, go thy way, sell all thou hast… This is the same story! Look at verse 24. “Children, how hard is it for them THAT TRUST IN RICHES, to enter the Kingdom of God!”. This proves exactly as I have been saying; He could not obey Jesus, but was “trusting in his riches” and could not part with them. “Riches” were his GOD, so he had broken the very first commandment. Also, read 1Timothy 6:17 I am not going to be-labor this point from here on in. It is “impossible” for anyone to KEEP the 10 commandments and be saved! But Jesus said it is “possble” to be saved but ONLY BY GOD–that is trusting Jesus and His death, burial, and resurrection and shed blood for our sins. FAITH IN JESUS

    • “You are a legalist that lives in adultery on a daily basis..”

      God bless you, Ed. They said Jesus, my Saviour had “a demon” too, Praise Jesus!

    • TWR

      hrgreenjr,

      The legalist comment used to be offensive. I didn’t create one law. God is a legalist by nature.

      Leviticus 18:26-28King James Version (KJV)
      26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

      27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

      28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

      As the wild olive branch, it is in your nature not to follow the true God. If God cut off the Israelites for not following his commandments, how dumb are the gentiles to believe the sovereign has changed. It is not for him to change.

      Romans 11:21King James Version (KJV)
      21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

      I don’t live in adultery because I keep God’s commandments strictly to please God. I have no concern for where I’m going when I leave this body. Pleasing God is my only concern. You are just like the rich man. All the people talking about eternal security are looking for eternal life. If Satan was offering eternal life, you would be singing his praises. You can tell me whatever but you can’t fool God. You declare salvation with your mouth but their is no righteousness in your heart.

      Romans 10:10King James Version (KJV)
      10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

      God is legalistic. Sin is transgression of the law. How can we live in a sin free world without being legalistic? You don’t get rid of sin, you get rid of the sinner. God doesn’t change (Malachi 3:6). That is why the gentiles who are screaming rapture are already prophetically cut off.

      Joel 3:9King James Version (KJV)
      9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

      Ezekiel 39:21King James Version (KJV)
      21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

      God is legalistic! If I’m legalistic, I reflect the personality of my father. The opposite of legalistic is lawless. Those who embrace lawlessness reflect the personality of their father. God did not create one law that was not for the protection of mankind as a whole. It is lawlessness that has mankind on the verge of extinction, yet you toss around legalistic like it is a dirty word. That is what Satan would have you believe.

      Faith is a journey of self discovery. There is no devil that can make you do anything or steal your soul. Humanity had to fall away from the faith in order for the man of lawlessness to be revealed. Look in the mirror. Keeping the commandments to please God, not obtain eternal life is not legalistic, when he made the laws. God wrote his laws in our hearts and minds. They must mean something to him. Gentiles have not learned from the fall of Israel. You create false doctrines like eternal security as an excuse to embrace lawlessness and follow your nature, which is of your father Satan.

    • tiptopsaidhe

      I will give it a try…

      Q1. All those before the death of Jesus went to Sheol, the center of the earth, both the righteous and the unrighteous. It is referred to as a place of comfort for Lazarus, and paradise, Abraham’s bosom. We find the rich man there also, so it is also the place of torment. Abraham had a conversation with the rich man in Luke 16, so they were together, some in paradise beside others in torment.

      Our Lord went to Sheol/Hades for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (queber…different word for grave) (Mat. 12:40). It is never said that the body goes to Sheol, but the body does go to the queber. The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). Jesus already told us in Luke 16 that paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time, so the thief went to Sheol with Jesus first. Eph 4 tells us that after Jesus rose and ascended, He took the saints in Sheol with Him to heaven…

      Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
      Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
      Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

      So, OT saints went to paradise, exactly the same place as the thief. Now, since the resurrection of Jesus our Lord, instead of sharing the same “place” among the unrighteous, saints go to heaven.

      Q2. Lev 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall // make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.//
      Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

      Animal sacrifices were required by God so men could experience forgiveness of sin. These sacrifices foreshadowed and illustrated Christ’s death as our substitute. After the death and resurrection of Christ as our substitute, animal sacrifices are no longer necessary, and will never be again. The sin debt is paid by God’s own blood. The secret is knowing that God was willing to die to redeem mankind unto Himself.

      Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

      Q3. & Q4. The great difference, and really only difference, between the old Mosaic and the new Christian dispensation is, back then grace was placed in one nation, but now grace is poured out to all nations. The law never demanded that blessings be earned. The purpose of the law was to show that blessings could not be earned.

      It is wrong to imply that Israel chose to forego grace by acting rashly when accepting the Mosaic covenant. That’s nonsense. All men deemed as righteous, throughout time, have been chosen by God to receive it, regardless of their worthiness or their works. Abel, Noah, Abram before the Mosaic law (the law was established prior to the garden of Eden, or Adam couldn’t have trangressed it, nor could Cain have been charged with murder, nor could have Abimelech have been warned of adultery if it didn’t exist), Moses, Joseph, Rahab, Samuel, David during the Mosaic law, Christians after the Mosaic law. All of them failed in some way or another and would be deemed unrighteous and unworthy, except for grace to establish them.

      Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
      Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;

      Legal obedience was never a condition of salvation. Grace didn’t begin with the death and resurrection of Christ. And, if acceptance of Christ were made a condition of salvation, no one could be saved.

      Isa 53:3 …: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
      Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
      Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
      Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
      Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

      God has been dispensing grace throughout all the ages, and in the same manner.

      Q5. I find it odd that you choose this verse…
      “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” 1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV)
      without also including what happened prior…
      1Sa 9:2 And he had a son, whose name was Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher (taller) than any of the people.
      1Sa 9:16 To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.
      1Sa 9:21 And Saul answered and said, Am not I a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? wherefore then speakest thou so to me?
      1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee (Saul), and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
      1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him (Saul), and he prophesied among them.

      1Sa 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
      1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
      1Sa 16:15 And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
      1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
      1Sa 16:17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me.

      v16 says that when David plays the harp while the evil spirit from God is upon him, Saul will be well. If we believe the Spirit of the Lord was replaced by an evil spirit, then it says that when David played harp the evil spirit left also. So, there really is no spirit at that point.

      It goes on to say it 2 more times, regarding 2 more instances…

      After David and Jonathan make the covenant…
      1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul’s hand.

      Then, in Chap 19, again regarding the loyalty and demands of the covenant between Jonathan and David…
      1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

      If we look up those words for evil spirit in concordance, it says things like a temper or anger or bad feelings, which David’s music would help soothe and calm, just as people use music today to help them change a frame of mind.

      So, do we conclude that God gave Saul His Holy Spirit, then took it away? Does that seem like the God we serve? Or do we conclude that God gave Saul a spirit to serve and lead as God needed him, followed by a spirit of anger and discontent toward David as God was moving David into position? Couldn’t we say the same of Pharaoh in Egypt? Didn’t God give him a spirit of hardening towards the Israelites in order to push them out of Egypt and toward Canaan? Weren’t both men equally utilized for the glory of God, maybe without being declared righteous by His grace? Does God have the right to utilize people for His glory in any manner He created them to be used? I don’t see Saul named later as being righteous, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t. I do see David declared as a man “after God’s own heart,” though David clearly made a mess of his life.

      I’m not sure the instance of Saul is one to base a foundational case upon regarding the Holy Spirit in the OT. The Holy Spirit was over the waters at creation, so we must conclude His presence has been from the beginning of time.

      The process of sanctification is one that continues throughout our lives and is never perfected until our death. Though the promise of the new covenant is that the Holy Spirit will cause us to walk in His statutes, we do that in the power of Christ and in His perfect obedience, and we are deemed righteous by His actions, all the while trusting in the Holy Spirit to keep us growing to be like Him.

      • carrierwave

        I agree, the scriptures you have given debunk much of the dispensational 2, 3, gospel notions of J. Randolf.

        One important concept you did not mention (maybe you did and I missed it) well, MOST important concept is “FAITH”. All the way back to Abel, by his “FAITH” the offering he brought to the Lord and by it, (FAITH) Abel was ‘declared righteous’. Heb. 11:4 Who’s righteousness did Abel receive by FAITH? Christ’s! That can be the only answer. It was imputed by FAITH. Salvation is activated by a person’s FAITH, in the provision God gave them at the time. These are GRACE concepts, found in the new testament. I find GRACE as you did, through the whole Bible for salvation. The notion O.T. saints went to hell if they did not bring a sacrifice to the priest under the old covenant is FALSE. Israel would all be in hell, since they lost their temple, and there was no means to offer it when Israel went into captivity. God’s people in the O.T. were made righteous by FAITH, not the blood of dead animals!
        Anyway I appreciate your comments and scriptures you presented.

        • Edwitness

          Not by faith **alone** Carrierwave. That is a huge difference.

          **Hebrews 9:13-18** “For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the **flesh**: **How much more** shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, **purge your conscience** from dead works to serve the living God? (The dead works he is refering to here are the works of the law)
          And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, **for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament**, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
          For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. (Death of the testator, Jesus, not bulls and goats)
          For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
          Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. (But not the blood that saves eternally)

          If their’s was the same then there was no need for Jesus dying and raising from the dead, right? They were already as saved as they could be. Jesus’ death was unnecessary for them the way you interpret this. But, this passage as well as many others state otherwise.
          When the law came they were required to keep it as part of their service to God. We in the church age are to recognize the law as being abolished by Jesus’ final, once for all, sacrifice. **Eph.2:15** “Having **abolished** in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace…”

        • Thanks for the comment. I appreciate your mention of “faith,” which immediately brings to mind that our faith isn’t our own, but also the gift of God to us….Eph 2:8-9. We don’t even get to choose to have faith. He gives it to us as His gift. Abram wasn’t faithful on his own. In fact, he asked for several signs, several times. So, God made a covenant with him, which Abram still had trouble having faith in. So, even Abram’s doubt of the faith he was granted STILL didn’t hinder the faith given him to be considered righteous. How awesome is our God?

    • carrierwave

      Tell that to an unsaved man today, who needs Salvation and he will never come to Christ. If there is no conscience and conviction of sin that he is under the curse of his transgression, the Spirit of God cannot convince him of his need of a Saviour. The Law is abolished to *the believer* who is under Grace. The unsaved man is not under Grace until he trusts Jesus Christ and gets HIS righteousness. (Romans 3:25-26, Phil. 3:9, 2Cor. 5:21)

      Sin is breaking the commandments of God, or don’t you believe that?? Paul, the apostle says that the law IS “written in the hearts” of the unsaved Gentile. Have you torn Romans 2 out of the BIBLE, mr. witness?? Jesus said those who do not believe on Him are yet in their sins and will die in their sins if they do not believe on Him. (John 8:24) What are sins, mr. witness?? I would like to hear your definition of SIN.

      Respectfully, I would challenge you to start reading ALL that God says about the law, not just those passages that apply to *believers* only, under Grace. Does not Paul say the law WAS the *schoolmaster* that brings US to Christ so WE (Jew and Gentile) could be “justified” by FAITH? (Galatians 3:24) This is a Gentile “church” Paul is addressing, right? What brought those Gentiles to the BLOOD of Christ? According to Paul, the only answer is the “SCHOOLMASTER” (the Law). Once the individual is IN CHRIST he is “no longer under the schoolmaster”. (Galatians 3:25) So, what objection do you have to these scriptures? Have you been under the “schoolmaster” (Greek, “boy-leader”)that brought you to the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus and were saved?

      >> Read Jesus’ words… John 6:44 “No man can come to me except the Father that sent Me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

      This is exactly what Paul is saying; the law is the righteous character of God the Father’s HOLINESS, that “draws”(shoolmaster) the unsaved man to Jesus Christ so he can be saved by FAITH. I do not see your point in face of these scriptures.

      You stated: “When the law came they were required to keep it as part of their service to God. We in the church age are to recognize the law as being abolished by Jesus’ final, once for all, sacrifice. **Eph.2:15** “Having **abolished** in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace…”

      Look, Paul was speaking to BELIEVERS in Ephesians 2, right? Colossian 2:14 says the same thing, written to BELIEVERS, both Jew and Gentile, right? The PEACE that Paul talks about here is to those IN CHRIST, right? The Body of CHrist, the CHURCH, containing Jew and Gentile BELIEVERS. This does NOT APPLY to the unsaved! God is still attempting to “draw them” (the unsaved, Jew and Gentile)to Jesus so they will COME TO JESUS by FAITH and be saved. That is why Paul says they need the “schoolmaster” the law to bring them to FAITH in Christ. It is simply not possible to apply these promises to people who are not saved yet! They don’t know them, and they cannot understand them because they are “spiritually discerned”.

      O.T. SAINTS went to Sheol, because of their FAITH in God’s promises, that were not fulfilled yet.

      “When the law came they were required to keep it as part of their service to God.”

      That is not true. They certainly were not “required” to keep the law for Salvation! They received temporal “cleansing of the flesh” via the “blood of dead animals”, but IT DID NOT TAKE AWAY THEIR SIN TO SAVE THEIR SOUL.. The O.T. saints were looking to GOD to SAVE them. Read the story of the “Pharisee and the Publican” Luke 18:9-14, (This was UNDER THE O.T. LAW) They had the “promises” of the scriptures of a coming SAVIOR that would “deliver them from the curse of Law”. Mary called God, “GOD MY SAVIOUR” Luke 1:47. Since Jesus had not yet fulifilled the law and had not shed His “BLOOD of the everylasting covenant” Heb. 13:20 for mankind, O.T. Saints BY FAITH, trusting God’s promises, went to Abraham’s bosom, WAITING for GOD, THEIR SAVIOUR to lead them out to Glory. Jesus “took captivity captive” Ehp.4:8 Keeping the law and sacrifices “never took away sins”. Hebrews 10:4 Hebrews 10:11 1John 3:5. O.T. saints were justified, Romans 4:1-5, received God’s Grace, Genesis 6:8, Genesis 47:29, Exodus 33:12.13, Exodus 34:9, Zech.12:10 during the Tribulation!

      • Carrierwave,
        The law was never given to anyone but Israel. Romans 2:14 “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law….” (Gentiles do not have the law) It was a covenant between God and Israel only. The new covenant does not include the law that was given to Moses. That is why Hebrews tells them (the Hebrews) that the law they were given could not save or as Eph. 2:15 says lead them to salvation, therefore it was abolished so that Jew and gentile could be one new man. A Christian.

        The fact that the law was a schoolmaster for Israel refers to it’s protection from destroying themselves, it’s preserving power. It schooled them in this way until faith would come. Then it was abolished. It does not lead anyone to Christ. That is why Paul said it (the law) was weakened by the flesh. Rom.8:3. Not because the flesh could not keep the law. Luke 1:6, Phil.3:6. But, because the law only deals with the flesh. Hebrews 9:13 “For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, **sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh**….” It could not save them nor lead them to salvation.

        In Galatians 3:21 Paul says emphatically that the law has nothing to do with salvation. He says if it did then “righteousness would be by the law”. It is by faith alone that men are saved in the church age. That faith is not in the fact that they have been shown their lawbreaking and believe they are bad because of it. It is the fact that they believe (faith) that Jesus died and rose from the grave, conquering death and sin. The sin of Israel had to do with the law. The sin of Gentiles has to do with not knowing Jesus. And this is how all have been concluded under sin. There were none who knew Jesus. John 16:9 and Gal.3:22 respectively. They have come to the knowledge that they need to know Christ to have eternal life. John 17:3. “And this is life eternal, that they might **know thee** the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”.

        When you begin a relationship with someone do you measure your worthiness to be able to have a relationship with them? Unless you are a respecter of persons the answer is no. Then why would you do that when coming to Christ? Answer: Because you have been taught to.

        It is not a person’s naughtiness that keeps them from eternal life. It is their lack of the presence (glory) and knowing (faith) of Jesus in their lives. Law keepers go to hell every day. Those who know Jesus as their savior from death’s power (resurrection) go to heaven in eternal life. If the law leads you to Christ, then your relationship with Him will be based on the law.

        Jesus did not die to make bad people good. He died to make dead people alive. The law has nothing to do with leading to or saving anyone since Christ’s death and resurrection. We can now be set free from sin and death and so can Israel. Gentiles, because they can come to know Jesus. Israel, because the law has been abolished and has no more hold over them (Rom.7:6 “But now we (Israel) are **delivered from the law**, that being dead wherein we were held…..) and can now come to know Jesus. Either way salvation is knowing Jesus. Not understanding how bad one is. Our need for Jesus, whether Jew or gentile, comes from our need for eternal life because we are spiritually dead. Not a need to be delivered from how bad we are.

        • hrgreenjr

          “The law was never given to anyone but Israel. Romans 2:14 “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law….” (Gentiles do not have the law)”

          SIMPLE NONSENSE: Is that how you study the Bible, in “segmental phrases” like the JWs ? “The erroneous employment of using partial “phrases” and half-truths of God’s HOLY Word to create strange doctrines? FAIL! Here is what Romans 2:14-15 completely says in it’s entirety:

          “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)”

          Let’s be honest here and use ALL the scriptures, instead of ‘partial verses’ and put away the facades, and let’s finish where you cut short God’s Word: God states here about the Gentiles, that they: “..do by NATURE the things contained in the law, having not the law, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES. Which shew the work of the LAW WRITTEN IN THEIRS HEARTS, their CONSCIENCE also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.” The Gentiles did not have to have A MOSES go to mount Sinai and get tables of stone so they could have the LAW. God says HE has “written those Laws IN THEIR HEARTS”, and their “CONSCIENCE also bearing witness”. This is exactly what I told you in the previous post. Unsaved man needs a witness against his CONSCIENCE; that is the LAW WRTTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, to convict and convince him he needs Jesus Christ. That is a FALSEHOOD, that “the Gentiles have NO LAW. God says THEY DO; “WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS.” “Segmented theology will lead to error. mr. witness.

          “The fact that the law was a schoolmaster for Israel refers to it’s protection from destroying themselves, it’s preserving power. It schooled them in this way until faith would come. Then it was abolished. It does not lead anyone to Christ.”

          UTTER NONSENSE: In blatant contradiction to God’s Word; “The Law was our SCHOOLMASTER (Greek “boy leader”) to bring us to Christ.” (You said of the law; “It does not lead anyone to Christ.” EXCUSE ME? “ye do err not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.”

          “That is why Paul said it (the law) was weakened by the flesh. Rom.8:3. Not because the flesh could not keep the law. Luke 1:6, Phil.3:6. But, because the law only deals with the flesh.”

          MORE UTTER NONSENSE: LISTEN to what Paul said: “For we know the Law is SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.” Romans 7:14
          Again, FAIL! Here once again, God says the law EXISTS today, and IS, (present tense), and is SPIRITUAL, and does not “only deal with the flesh”. Luke 1:6 Elizabeth and Zacharias were “blameless” following the law, but they were not “sinless”. “There is not a just man upon the earth that doeth good a SINNETH NOT.” (Isaiah 64:6) There is an obvious difference. When they sinned, they offered according to the law that which Moses had commanded them to do, and were made “blameless” in a temporal, imperfect, carnal state. Paul also, as “touching the law, blameless”, BUT HE WAS NOT SINLESS. Listen to PAUL! “This is a faithful says and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNER (law transgressors) of WHOM I AM CHIEF.” (1Timothy 1:15)

          “That faith is not in the fact that they have been shown their lawbreaking and believe they are bad because of it. It is the fact that they believe (faith) that Jesus died and rose from the grave, conquering death and sin.”

          YOU HAVE SHOWN *NO SCRIPTURE* TO PROVE THIS: Contrary to this falsehood, Paul stated “Christ JESUS came into the world to SAVE SINNERS, of whom I am CHIEF. Jesus died FOR PAUL, because HE SINNED AND WAS BAD! Peter also stated: “Who his own self BORE OUR SINS in His body on the tree, that we being DEAD IN SINS, (law breaking), should live unto righteousness, by whose stripes we are healed.” You are attempting to MAKE VOID THE LAW (does not exist). Paul said “GOD FORBID”–do you hear that or have you shut out the Spirit of God when you are rebuked by HIM? (Jws are taught to do that when they get convicted by the God’s Word in their false doctrines!)

          “Do we then make VOID THE LAW through FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.” Romans 3:31

          That’s you to a tee, mr. witness!

          Jesus DIED FOR YOU, SIR…because you are a sinner before God, guilty as charged! YOU MUST COME TO JESUS AS A LOST SINNER OR YOU WILL NEVER BE SAVED. “For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.” Roman 6:23 There is a “negative post” on every battery, or otherwise, it will not work! The SAME is true with Salvation. Mr. witness– get saved, PLEASE! you are yet in your sins, as it seems obvious.

          • More blathering balderdash from someone who has no idea what purpose the law SERVED for Israel. Since I as a gentile have never been under the law or responsible to keep it I never bore any guilt or responsibility related to it’s transgression. I say again with the apostle Paul. If the law has any part in your salvation you are in adultery. Romans 7:1-4.

            The rest of your moronic comment has been addressed in past replies.

    • Is it any wonder why the body of Christ is in such shambles ? Mixing the Holy with the profane. A thread of heresy is tightly woven thru these
      comments. I say as the Apostles, “Who then can be saved”. Matthew 19:25 Of course we know this was in reference to the rich man, but we also know it is far more telling then said.
      Was Messiah a liar when he said “Come to me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest”. “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls”. “For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light”.Matthew 11:28,29,30.

      One reading the above comments, I for one would not want to know Christ if we are the example for others.

      Do we not all drink of one Spirit ? 1Corinthians 12:7.
      And whether one member suffer,(the body of Christ) all the members suffer with it;
      Or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.1Corinthians 12:26

      What about upholding our weaker brother? I need my brethren to edify the Church with encouragement and a
      Holy Fire, not bring schism in the body, but have the same care one for another.

      My prayer is, let no man deceive you and stay ever close to the Spirit of Truth.

      V

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