Is The Non-Dispensational ‘Scarlet Thread’ Single Plan Of Salvation Doctrinal Or A Religious Lie?

The scarlet rope—the color of blood—worked for Rahab much as the blood of the Passover lamb had worked during the exodus, which becomes a symbol of the blood of Christ. Non-dispensationalist often refer to this as “the scarlet thread running through the Bible.” By this they mean that the Bible’s theme is Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for the redemption of mankind, “the blood of Christ runs throughout the entire Bible”.
scarlet-thread-bible-doctrine-plan-salvation-dispensationalism-nteb

Is the ‘Scarlet Thread’ doctrinal or a religious lie?

“I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.” 1 John 2:21 KJV

Are there multiple plans of salvation throughout the scriptures or only one? Those who study the Bible carefully can clearly see that God has dealt with man differently during different ages, or dispensations. Those who cling to one plan of salvation, however, often recite or make reference to the ‘Scarlet Thread’ that they say ‘runs all through the Bible’. Now this sounds good, but is it doctrinal? Let’s take a look.

The Scarlet Thread

The scarlet thread teaching originates from Joshua 2. Two spies had been sent to Jericho in advance of the Israelites’ taking of that city. The spies were hidden in Jericho by Rahab the harlot, who expressed her faith in Israel’s God and protected the spies (Hebrews 11:31 KJV). Rahab allowed the Hebrew spies to escape from Jericho by letting them down through her window by means of a rope made of scarlet thread. As they departed, the spies told Rahab, “thou shalt bind this line of scarlet thread in the window which thou didst let us down by: and thou shalt bring thy father, and thy mother, and thy brethren, and all thy father’s household, home unto thee.” (Joshua 2:18 KJV), with the promise that she and her household would be kept safe in the coming invasion. By faith, Rahab obeyed: “And she said, “According unto your words, so be it. And she sent them away, and they departed: and she bound the scarlet line in the window.” (verse 21).

Non-dispensationalist claim that while it’s easy to dismiss the color of Rahab’s rope as mere coincidence, the scarlet thread color is significant. They claim that the rope in her window was a “sign” of her faith and led to her salvation, as she was not destroyed with the rest of Jericho. The scarlet rope—the color of blood—worked for Rahab much as the blood of the Passover lamb had worked during the exodus, which becomes a symbol of the blood of Christ. Non-dispensationalist often refer to this as “the scarlet thread running through the Bible.” By this they mean that the Bible’s theme is Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for the redemption of mankind, “the blood of Christ runs throughout the entire Bible”.

However, the problem with this interpretation is that:

  1. In context, the scarlet thread is only a reference to saving Rahab and her family’s physical lives
  2. To apply this doctrinally promotes both Calvinism and Mormonism heresies as Rahab’s actions also accounted for her family’s “salvation”
  3. Neither Rahab nor her family were redeemed to go to Heaven when they died.
  4. There is not mention of the promise of Christ’s crucifixion anywhere in the passage.

Therefore, is the “One Plan” of salvation teaching doctrinal?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Tim 3:16 KJV

Is the Scarlet thread teaching a true doctrinal reference to only ONE plan of salvation throughout the scriptures? Observe the following:

Using the law of first mention, where a doctrine is mentioned for the first time and to study the first occurrence of the same in order to get the fundamental inherent meaning of that doctrine, let us compare and contrast the first occurrence in scripture when sinful man accounted for acceptance or rejection with God (Cain & Abel), vs church age acceptance or rejection with God today.

“And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.” Genesis 4:3-7  (KJV)

Acceptance:

Cain & Abel – acceptance or rejection of God based on THEIR works (1 John 3:12 KJV)

Church age today – acceptance or rejection based on receiving Jesus Christ (John 1:12 KJV)

Righteousness:

Cain & Abel – acceptance or rejection of God based on the righteousness of THEIR works (1 John 3:12 KJV)

Church age today – acceptance or rejection based on receiving the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Rom 3:21-22 KJV)

Grace & Faith:

Cain & Abel – acceptance or rejection of God based on grace through faith in an animal sacrifice COMPLETELY OF THEMSELVES (1 John 3:12 KJV)

Church age today – acceptance or rejection based of God based on grace through faith in Christ Jesus and that NOT OF OURSELVES (Eph 2:8-9 KJV)

Permanent forgiveness of sins:

Cain & Abel – None (Heb 10:4 KJV)

Church age today – accomplished IN Christ (Colo 1:14 KJV)

Things that are different are not the same. Salvation in Cain & Abel’s time period was not identical to the churches in acceptance, righteousness, grace, faith, or in forgiveness of sins with God; how is this so if there is only ONE plan of salvation throughout the scriptures?

Did the OT Saints understand and preach salvation through future observation of the Scarlet thread?

“For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.” Isaiah 28:11-12 (KJV)

Another teaching that’s often pushed by most Non-dispensationalists is that salvation through Christ death, burial, and resurrection was always known and preached by several OT Saints. Any serious student of scripture would know this is not so. The OT Saints did not have a complete written revelation like we today have preserved in the KJV. Isaiah did not know the name of Jesus Christ when he prophesied in Isaiah 53, neither was the the gospel of the grace of God made known during Christ’s earthly ministry:

“One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.” Deuteronomy 19:15 (KJV)

 

WITNESS #1: The Lord Jesus Christ

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.” Luke 18:31-34 (KJV)

 

WITNESS #2: The Apostle Paul

“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 (KJV)

 

WITNESS # 3: The Apostle Peter

“Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.” 1 Peter 1:12 (KJV)

The Scarlet Thread is great when preached as instruction in righteousness and the Biblical study of types; but to doctrinally teach that the Scarlet thread was observed and trusted by OT Saints throughout the scriptures is simply a religious lie. On the contrary, the doctrinal application of the Scarlet thread proves that salvation in the OT is not the same as salvation in the NT.

References: Got Questions

Jimmy Randolph is a veteran, husband, father, Bible believer and a devoted student of the word of God. He was called to preach on the street in 2012, and maintains a strong, personal tract witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • Here is how it should be always interpreted: Since Man was formed we have been in 3 dispensation periods..(1) Before the law was given from Eden until God gave Moses the Ten Commandmenrs..(2) The OT Saints were those who followed the 10 commandments as well as the Rituals given by God in that dispensation period. (3) The Human Sacrifice at Calvary by Jesus erased the need for sacrificing goats and lambs and cattle, to cover our sins..

      The most important thing introduced in our 3rd and final dispensation is God has given The Holy Ghost unto everyone who obeys his Gospel and honors his word. The requirements are very simple. Man still is rebelling against God by denying his word, with every excuse Satan can feed them. All one has to do is read and Obey the exact teachings of The Apostles of Jesus…(read: Acts 2 verse 42/ I Timothy 4 verse 16).

      When the people gathered heard Peter preach the very first message in a Christian Gathering, those gathered ( converts) asked Peter and the rest: “Men, and Brethren, WHAT MUST WE DO”?
      (ACTS 2 verse 37) Peter told them exactly what to do to be saved ( Acts 2 verse 38).

      The entire book of Acts tells us the very beginning of the Christian Church.starting in Jerusalem….No other doctrines, or teachings other then those taught by the Original Apostles is needed…

      • Well..not all the apostles taught the same thing. Acts 2:38 is a much different plan of salvation than Ephesians 2:8,9. Christians in the Church Age don’t get saved by water baptism, right? That’s Peter’s plan of salvation. Paul said it is salvation by grace through faith ALONE. The Catholic Church hated Paul’s teaching so much it killed Christians for nearly 1,500 years.

        The book of Acts is what they call a transitional book, it takes you from one point to another. Acts 2 shows Jews waiting for the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, right? Joel’s prophecy has not ever yet happened, and Paul calls Christians to look for the Rapture, not the Second Coming. These things are all very different.

        • charles england

          first off,there will be no rapture untill JESUS returns,just like the OT saints were raptured when JESUS brought them back from Paradise;they were saved by faith to paradise to wait on JESUS ,when JESUS blood was spilled the VEIL WAS RENT and they were sanctified by the BLOOD…There is no difference today,we are saved by the BLOOD not grace…grace just replaced the LAW…and oh yeah I know what your gonna say,(then who are those that come back with JESUS?)…The OTSaints…

          • @charles england

            What is the gospel today Charles? Is the gospel believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved (Acts 16:31 KJV) or is the gospel to have faith in Jesus Christ and keep the commandments by not worshiping the beast, nor receiving his name, mark, or number (Rev 14:9-12 KJV)?

            You can’t preach both today.

            • Pete

              Jimmy, you are adding words and concepts to Revelation 14 that are not in the text. Rev 14:9-12 is not a “gospel.” That word doesn’t even exist in this passage. Isn’t it possible that this verse is saying that anyone who worships Satan instead of God is doomed to hell? That’s true no matter what time era you live in.

            • “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Revelation 14:12 (KJV)

              It is a gospel because it shows you how people will be saved during the Tribulation, by a combination of faith + works. And this will really freak you out, wanna see what the very last gospel that will ever be preached sounds like? Just like this:

              “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,” Revelation 14:6 (KJV).

              This is why Paul draws a distinction between his gospel of the GRACE of God, and the one preached by an angel in the time of Jacob’s trouble in Galatians:

              “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8 (KJV)

              When you RIGHTLY DIVIDE your Bible, you come to the right conclusions about what it teaches.

            • hrgreenjr

              Take a dose of your own medicine, Geoffery, rightly divide instead of “wrongly provide” for false teaching hyper-dispensationalism…

              Revelation 14:9-12 is not “the Gospel” preached during the Tribulation. It plainly states : “Here is the PATIENCE of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” This is a DESCRIPTION of their PATIENCE, not the plan of Salvation that saved them! It does NOT say. ‘Here is the SALVATION of the saints’… Though this is what you want it to say, but it does not. This is what happens to all hyper-dispensationalist like yourself to prove a “works” salvation; take “ONE” scripture, (vs 12), twist the real meaning and build a false teaching of “works” salvation (lordship salvation).

              Revelation 14:9-12 cannot stand alone if you claim to be are rightly dividing the scriptures; but that is what you haven’t done. The BLOOD alone, saves saints in the Tribulation. Revelation 7:9-17 debunks this false teaching of hyper-disensational “works” salvation, and shows clearly what SAVES Tribulation “saints” and gives them the ability to stand “before the throne of God.” When describing these ‘tribulation saints’, the “Elder” tells John WHO, this great “white robed” multitude is, WHERE they came from, and WHY they are able to stand before the throne of God in Heaven. Verse 14: …”These are they which came out of great tribulation, and WASHED THEIR ROBES, AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.” Verse 15: “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.” Be consistent at least! Rev. 14:9-12 is NOT THE GOSPEL!

            • charles england

              Yes,both

            • Emily

              “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Revelation 16:15

            • King James only please, thank you! 🙂

            • Why can you not preach “justification” – I was saved by Jesus Christ, alongside “sanctification” – I am being saved continuously until I die by Jesus Christ, simaltaneously?

            • Hello Jimmy, I only today found this site and your article. Well done; just please consider that Rom 10:9-10 is Paul’s description of the proper response to his Gospel but is not the Gospel of grace itself (1 Cor 15:1-4). Thanks, will be visiting often…

          • Jim Black

            LISTEN UP, PRE TRIBBERS!

            THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS

            The Shepherd of Hermas is a Christian literary work of the late 1st or mid-2nd century, considered a valuable book by many Christians, and considered canonical scripture by some of the early Church fathers such as Irenaeus. Hermas was the “go to guy” for Biblical understand- ing and teaching. The Lord gave him five visions concerning many things, one of which was the great tribulation and how the church can escape it.

            In vision 4, Chap 2, Hermas records a vision of a great beast which represented the great tribulation. In the vision, he was shown that he would escape it had it been the real great tribulation, NOT BY THE RAPTURE, but because of, “his faith and that he did not doubt in the presence of the beast.” So his vision was a prophecy for the future church generation that will enter the great tribulation and how she can escape it, NOT BY THE RAPTURE, but, “If then you prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and you spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.” (Vision 2, Chap. 2)

            Then, again in Vision 2, Chap. 2, the angel tells Hermas, ” Happy you who endure the great tribulation that is coming, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair, for even now these are to deny Him in the days that are coming. To those who denied in earlier times, God became gracious, on account of His exceeding tender mercy.”

            Those who are, “prepared, repentant, pure of heart, spotless and serving the Lord blamelessly,” will escape great tribulation. But many professing Christians will fall away because they did not spiritually prepare themselves to stand strong for Christ under persecution, suffering and tribulation. (Matt. 24:9,10)

            MANY WILL BE HIDDEN IN THE DAY OF GOD'S ANGER

            “Seek ye the Lord, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice; seek righteousness, seek meekness. It may be that you shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger.” (Zeph. 2:3)

            • charles england

              good
              word there brother Black

            • Jim Black

              Would love a reply from brother Geoff, or other pre tribs, but don’t really expect it.

            • The Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath.

              Revelation ch. 6 indicates the whole Tribulation period, beginning to end, is God’s wrath.

              It’s not speaking to or about the Body of Christ.

              Your objection is dismissed and take Hermie with you.

            • Jim Black

              God’s Wrath is first mentioned in the Revelation, verse 6:16 which is clearly at the end of the tribulation. Next mentioned in Rev. 14:19 which is the great winepress of the wrath of God on the wicked. Both the righteous and unrighteous are judged at the same time, at the end of the tribulation. The last “wrath of God” is Rev. 16:1 which begins the seven bowls of wrath. It all happens at the end of the tribulation. How is you say the seven years are the “wrath of God?”

            • Joe Dokes

              “God’s Wrath is first mentioned in the Revelation, verse 6:16 which is clearly at the end of the tribulation.”

              No.

              From Rev 1:10 onward, we with John are shown THE DAY OF THE LORD — not Sunday. From that point forward depicts the Day of the Lord, the final fall of judgment and wrath which for now, under grace, is held back.

              But when it falls, it will not fall upon the Body of Christ; there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ and have been forgiven all trespasses.

              Rather, it definitely WILL fall upon all who will not believe — especially the religiously deceived who have refused to receive the love of the Truth. For having rejected Christ, all such will be given strong delusion and WILL worship Antichrist.

              It has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.

            • Jim Black

              Greetings brother Joe,

              Your statement:

              “From Rev 1:10 onward, we with John are shown THE DAY OF THE LORD — not Sunday. From that point forward depicts the Day of the Lord, the final fall of judgment and wrath which for now, under grace, is held back.:

              Jim: We see in Joel 2:30,31 that the day of the Lord will be preceded by ” wonders in the heavens, blood, fire, pillars of smoke, blood moon and darkened sun. Are you saying these things will precede Daniel’s 70th week? Aren’t this basically the same signs we see in Matt. 24 and Luke 21, which happen AFTER the tribulation of those days?” (Matt. 24:29)

              Your statement:

              “But when it falls, it will not fall upon the Body of Christ; there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ and have been forgiven all trespasses.”

              Jim: It would be wonderful if the verse said, “There is now no TRIBULATION for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Christians are appointed to tribulation, persecution and suffering for the namesake of Christ. There will be no condemnation at the judgment for those who are in Christ. Condemnation has nothing to do with the tribulation the saints will face.

              Your statement:

              “Rather, it definitely WILL fall upon all who will not believe — especially the religiously deceived who have refused to receive the love of the Truth. For having rejected Christ, all such will be given strong delusion and WILL worship Antichrist.”

              Jim: What pre tribbers don’t understand is that those who remain faithful to Jesus, pure in heart and blameless in the tribulation period will be protected from the evil one (John 17:15,20, Rev. 3:8-10). Unfortunately, many will fall away because they won’t have the “metal” to stand strong for Jesus when persecution and tribulation comes upon them (Matt. 24:9,10). Please read Luke 21:36.

            • charles england

              Amen brother Black,for the life of me I can’t see why these people cant’t see…sometimes I get frustrated but by the Grace of GOD and his strength and patience we have to continue the race till the end…

            • Jim Black

              “Not by power, nor by might, but by My Holy Spirit.” (Zech. 4:6) Only the Holy Spirit can break this deeply entrenched stronghold called Pretribulationism (same with Preterism, replacement theology, Dominion Now, Salvation Through Different Gospels etc.). Even brothers in Christ can be taken captive to do the will of the devil through abiding in false teachings. But by the grace of God they can break this stronghold and come to the knowledge of the truth through repentance (2 Tim. 2:25,26)
              God bless you brother Charles.

        • Pete

          Yes, Acts is a transitional book between Old Testament and New. “Acts 2 shows Jews waiting for the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, right?” Wrong. Acts 2 explicitly shows the Jews EXPERIENCING that fulfillment:

          Peter speaking in response to the people who came and saw the miracles of the tongues of fire, the outpouring of the holy Ghost, the speaking in other tongues, the rushing wind…Peter says Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

          THIS IS THAT. Your misunderstanding of Jewish idiom and mixing it up with Western 21st century thinking doesn’t give you the right to ignore explicit language. You are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

          • That was the BEGINNING of Joel’s prophecy, but NOT the fulfillment of it. This is the fulfillment of it:

            “Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Joel 3:14-16 (KJV)

            They got the beginning of it, but the fulfillment of it has YET to be. It will be fulfilled at the Second Coming.

            • Pete

              And here is where Geoffrey is going to go silent, I bet: Geoffrey, please show me WHERE Peter, or anyone else, stated that this was the “beginning” of Joel’s prophecy?

              Geoffrey, why would Peter say THIS IS THAT? How much plainer can the plain text be? If you can show me where Peter said, or even hinted, that he actually meant “this is the beginning of that which was spoke by Joel” or “This is LIKE that”….you would have a point.

              See, the only reason you read into what Peter said and change his wording, is you think that blood, fire and smoke – and the moon turning to blood and the sun to sackcloth – all had to take place in a physical, wooden literal sense…because you read the Bible like a 21st century Western guy, instead of rightly dividing and understanding that these are symbols from the Old Testament.

              When we read complicated language, we should go and learn what that language means from the BIBLE. Not change plain language that we know, like “this IS that”, into some other words.

              Why do dispies have such a problem with symbolic language? I will never understand that. Many of our most sacred doctrines rely on symbolism. Our very salvation depends on it. You guys treat it like it’s somehow less true than physical wooden literal stuff. Even though Peter straight up says it isn’t.

            • THE STRANGE, UNFULFILLED DOOMSDAY PROPHECY OF ACTS CHAPTER 2: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/the-strange-unfulfilled-doomsday-prophecy-of-acts-chapter-2/

            • Pete

              Geoffrey, thank you but I have already read your other post long ago. That post doesn’t give any proof that Peter actually meant that Joel’s prophecy was only “beginning” to be fulfilled. Instead, it begins by defining what Joel was talking about in modern 20th century parlance, instead of simply allowing Peter to define what Joel meant.

              For example, you claim that Peter “says not only are these men not drunk, but that the Tribulation is about to start and Jesus is getting ready to come back and fight the battle of Armageddon.” No he didn’t, YOU are claiming that Joel was talking about the return of Jesus and the battle of Armageddon. Why are you defining what Joel meant? Peter gets to define what Joel’s prophecy was, not you.

              Again, our weak understanding of complex apocalyptic language should not trump the plain simple words we do understand. “This IS that” means exactly what it says. You should reflect on whether you really understand what falling stars and blood moons really mean in the Bible (and it has nothing to do with eclipses).

          • MICHAEL

            Pete, I’ll give you this; at least you have a regard for the English text and similitudes. I appreciate your answer.
            I do have a different take on this because of what was not said, by Peter, in the text of Acts 2:16-21. Of course, as you have pointed out, he was quoting Joel 2: 28-32.
            For a minute, let’s say you’re right, basically THIS IS THAT meant the FULFILLMENT of Joel 2:28-32, and was accompanied (Acts 2: 2-12) by a “rushing mighty wind”, ” cloven tongues like as of fire”, “they (the 12) spoke with other tongues”, etc.
            The Spirit would have to be poured out on ALL flesh, which I can’t find He was. He was poured out on 12 men.
            Nobody dreams any dreams, at least that are recorded, in Acts 2.
            No handmaiden prophecies, at least that are recorded, in Acts 2.
            And although, you don’t take verses 19 and 20 literally, there are similar verses during the great tribulation in Revelation 8, 9, 12, 14, 16, 19.
            Joel is speaking of deliverance in Mt. Zion (Joel 2:32), in Jerusalem where the temple was.

            In addition, Joel says nothing about people speaking in tongues (Isaiah does in Isaiah 28: 11,12.)
            Joel doesn’t talk about a rushing mighty wind, cloven tongues of fire and any other “tongues” in his entire book.
            Peter never says “this is the fulfillment of the prophet Joel”.
            The THIS IS THAT is a lot like Matthew 16: 16,17,18 where “upon THIS rock, I will build my church” and people say Peter is the Rock. Not so, the THIS rock Is THAT which Peter spoke in verse 16, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”!

            Much like Acts 2:16; Peter never says it is the fulfillment of Joel 2. What Peter quotes to Israel is not a prophecy of Acts 2: 2-12, but a prophecy of what would happen in the last days, just as Joel said.

            So, my take is not the fulfillment of Joel 2, but what would happen before “that great and notable day of The Lord” which is always the 2nd Advent!

            I believe Geoffrey is correct here, at least on this one. But you’re argument was compelling.

            • Pete

              Hi Michael, again you seem to be begging the question. That is, you read the description of what happened, and then using your own experience and your own mind (not to mention imagination, since none of us were present for the events described), decide that those things in Joel didn’t happen as described, and other things did happen. Therefore you conclude that when Peter plainly told the present crowd, and us, that this was the fulfillment of Joel – well, that’s not really what Peter meant. That’s not right. Peter said what he said. If we don’t totally understand the difficult words, that doesn’t give us license to change the easy words.

              We don’t know how many men were present and how many received the Holy Ghost. Personally I believe this is the beginning of the transitions from the old testament era to the new. No longer would only a select few men, like Daniel or Joseph or Isaiah, receive prophecies and dreams. And we see from 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 that everyday people in the church have these same gifts. And all believers have the Holy Spirit poured out on them.

              //The THIS IS THAT is a lot like Matthew 16: 16,17,18 //

              I am not following what you suppose Peter means by “this” and “that”. Can you explain?

              //Much like Acts 2:16; Peter never says it is the fulfillment of Joel 2.//

              ????????? Peter says “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” Sorry but that’s pretty plain. Your view even espouses that the phrase Jesus utters “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,” means a fulfillment of Daniel. Be consistent.

              //What Peter quotes to Israel is not a prophecy of Acts 2: 2-12, but a prophecy of what would happen in the last days, just as Joel said.//

              And the last days were upon them, at that time. The last days of the Old Covenant. Acts 2 is further proof of that. You will find throughout the NT the writers constantly said they were in the last days. There are no last days of the New Covenant. This age lasts forever (Eph 3:21).

          • MICHAEL

            Pete, Peter never says “this is the FULFILLMENT which was spoken by the prophet Joel”. Not one time is the word FULFILLMENT used in relationship to what Peter was saying in Acts 2:28-32. I’ll wire you $250,000 I’d you can find the word FULFILLMENT in the text. ITS NOT THERE. Your imagination is going wild.
            If Peter was talking about the FULFILLMENT, he must have had bad manuscripts because, as I pointed out before, there is nothing in Joel 2 or in the book of Joel at all about “rushing mighty winds, cloven tongues like as of fire or other tongues”; it’s not there!
            I’ve already explained this in detail. Joel is preparation for the 2nd Advent and there are other things that happen in Joel that DID NOT happen in Acts 2!
            Read Joel 3:1-21. That’s a continuance of Joel 2 and I will guarantee you that “The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and earth shall shake; but The Lord will be the hope of HIS people, and the strength of the children of Israel”, DID NOT happen either!
            Now as far as you comparing Acts 2:16 to what The Lord Jesus Christ told his disciples in Matthew 24:15, it’s not even comparable! The Lord Jesus Christ said, “When ye therefore shall SEE the the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place ( whoso readeth let him understand:) (Daniel 9:27).
            The difference is the world SEE WHAT WAS SPOKEN! Peter didn’t say that “You are seeing or this is the fulfillment”, did he?
            I was getting along with until you said I was adding words or subtracting words from the text. I’m not STUPID enough to do that! See Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5,6 and Revelation 22:18.
            Face it, your not correct with your exegesis of Acts 2!

            • Pete

              You are reaching, Michael. You want to nitpick at words in desperation because you cannot wriggle out from under the simple “this is that.” If you or I cannot explain all the complex apocalyptic language, that doesn’t give us the right to change simple language. Everything necessary for the fulfillment of Joel 2 happened then, because Peter said it did. Period.

              You guys have the same problem with Jesus’ statement “THIS GENERATION shall not pass away.” This generation means this. Not “that”. The entire context of the Discourse is the 1st century, not 2000 years away. You guys hate it when simple words destroy your entire theory so you spend endless hoop-jumping to make it fit. Don’t do that. Let the words mean what they mean. The Bible is true. You just have to be open to chucking some closely held belief systems. I know how that feels, I had to do that too. I know this sounds condescending. Sorry. It is what it is.

              For now we can agree to disagree. In love of course.

              I would just like to point out to other people, not Michael, who actually really want the truth, and don’t care about their pet doctrines. Again, do you SEE how dispensationalism forces you to change words, change plain meaning, jump through hoops? There’s something really, really wrong with this doctrine. Those of you who – like me – were never comfortable with the wordplay, check it out for yourself. It’s all there.

        • Pete

          Rev 14:12 just shows characteristics of saints. It doesn’t say that’s how people become saints. Saints are those who follow the commandments of Jesus. Can someone go to heaven without following His commandments? Sure, but they aren’t doing what saints do. You keep conflating these characteristics with various gospel messages. You are only doing that to prop up your theology.

          And again, in Rev 14:16 – what is the everlasting gospel? It’s the one that Paul preached, because Paul said there is no other gospel but what he preached. So rather than just believe Paul, and then believe that the Holy Spirit would never tell Paul one thing and John another, you choose to believe your dispie rhetoric. The everlasting gospel John describes is 100% the same one Paul preached. Period. Along with that message, people were to “Fear God, and give glory to him.” Are we not commanded to fear God and give Him glory today Geoffrey? Do you worship each Sunday? Why? Because we are commanded to, that’s why.

          That doesn’t send us to heaven. That doesn’t change the gospel message.

          Anyone reading this needs to take a serious honest look at what dispensationalism does to these scriptures and ask the Lord: are they REALLY reading the Bible and rightly dividing?

          Or are they starting with their view and attempting to change the words to fit the view?

          • charles england

            Pete 1 June 2016 at 1:10 pmLeave a Reply
            Rev 14:12 just shows characteristics of saints. It doesn’t say that’s how people become saints. Saints are those who follow the commandments of Jesus. Can someone go to heaven without following His commandments? Sure, but they aren’t doing what saints do. Pete, may I ask how someone will make it to heaven without doing GOD’S COMMANDMENTS? The
            Bible plainly states that only those that do the will of the FATHER will go,straight from the mouth of JESUS,straight is the GATE and narrow is the ROAD,and there be few that find it…

          • @ Pete

            “Rev 14:12 just shows characteristics of saints. It doesn’t say that’s how people become saints.”

            Maybe you should reread the passage:

            And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
            And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11 KJV)

            Pay special attention how the angel specifies ANY MAN. This designates only TWO categories; the ones that did and the ones that did not. Funny how the Holy Spirit wrote in the VERY NEXT VERSE the ones that did not partake in verses 9-11 and ironically labeled them as ‘saints’. Remember that God is not the author of confusion.

            “And again, in Rev 14:16 – what is the everlasting gospel? It’s the one that Paul preached, because Paul said there is no other gospel but what he preached.”

            Talk about ADDING to God’s word! Salvation through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as a free gift of God is NOWHERE in Rev 14. The everlasting gospel is defined in verse 7; and you cannot pervert that verse into TODAYS gospel simply because you refuse to read the rest of verse 7. The context of the fear and glory in Rev 14 is not generic, it’s specifically in response to acknowledging the judgment of God during that time period before the 2nd Advent. There is nothing in Rev 14 about fearing God for not “worshiping him on Sunday” .

            Things that are different are not the same.

            • Pete

              Jimmy, Rev 12 clearly shows that those who don’t take the mark are saints. Those who do take the mark are not. How that proves, in any way shape or form, that the gospel message and path to eternal life has changed, I have no clue. You have to read that into it. I read it as merely a sign of one’s faith.

              Suppose in 2017, President Trump issues an executive order declaring that everyone in the USA has to get a “TRUMP” tattoo across their forehead. Trump says that this mark means we worship him as God and we reject all other Gods and of course Jesus Christ. Congress decides that executive order is not worthy of impeachment, so Trump initiates it.

              All of the nonchristians line up and get the tattoo.

              None of the Christians do.

              Get the point? Did taking the mark MAKE people nonchristian? Did not taking the mark MAKE someone a Christian? Nope.

              Recall in Daniel 3 that the Hebrew children Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not worship the image. Does Daniel anywhere state that refusing to worship the image gave them eternal life? No. They didn’t worship because they were believers in the one true God.

              You are a very confused man, and your dispensational system is a death spiral into further confusion.

          • Allow me to assist you out of your confusion Pete:

            Suppose in 2017, President Trump issues an executive order declaring that everyone in the USA has to get a “TRUMP” tattoo across their forehead. Trump says that this mark means we worship him as God and we reject all other Gods and of course Jesus Christ. Congress decides that executive order is not worthy of impeachment, so Trump initiates it.
            All of the nonchristians line up and get the tattoo.
            None of the Christians do.

            “Get the point? Did taking the mark MAKE people nonchristian? Did not taking the mark MAKE someone a Christian? Nope.”

            if you are claiming (in your scenario) that TRUMP is the beast of Rev 14, then once again, read verse 9-11 VERY CAREFULLY:

            And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
            And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11 KJV)

            Does taking the mark MAKE people “nonchristian”? YES because taking the mark AUTOMATICALLY damns your soul to Hell with no second chance of repentance or becoming a “christian” or saint. Your position of “Christians won’t get it vs Nonchristians will get it” is a religious fairy tale made up in your own mind. “Christian immunity” appears nowhere in the time of Jacob’s trouble because REAL Christians are already in Heaven during that time.

            Once again notice that it says ANY MAN; nowhere in the Revelation does it preach “christian immunity” against the beast. Also if you read the verse, eternity in HELL is based on not worshiping the beast, nor receiving his name, mark, or number; this designates SAVED and LOST. Can you show me ANYWHERE in scripture where the Apostle Paul warned the body of Christ not worship the beast nor receive his name, mark, or number in order to be SAVED FROM HELL?

            You simply have no clue what you are talking about.

            • Pete

              Hi Jimmy, I am not confused in the least, thanks.

              //if you are claiming (in your scenario) that TRUMP is the beast of Rev 14//

              No, I am not.

              //Once again notice that it says ANY MAN; nowhere in the Revelation does it preach “christian immunity” against the beast. //

              //Does taking the mark MAKE people “nonchristian”? YES because taking the mark AUTOMATICALLY damns your soul to Hell with no second chance of repentance or becoming a “christian” or saint.//

              If any man rejects Jesus Christ as his savior, he is damned to hell. Taking the mark means rejecting Jesus Christ. So yeah, worshiping Satan instead of God damns someone to hell. A Christian would never do that. By definition. He isn’t a Christian if he rejects Jesus. I don’t see what is so hard about this concept. We are never, never, never saved by works. Ever. Past, present or future.

              // “Christian immunity” appears nowhere in the time of Jacob’s trouble because REAL Christians are already in Heaven during that time.//

              No, because the time of Jacob’s Trouble happened around 500-600 BC, long ago. Your “Christians are already in Heaven” statement is 100% begging the question (“circular reasoning”).

              //Can you show me ANYWHERE in scripture where the Apostle Paul warned the body of Christ not worship the beast nor receive his name, mark, or number in order to be SAVED FROM HELL?//

              No. I can’t find any reference to “the beast” anywhere in any of Paul’s writings. Can you show me where Paul says the church is whisked away to heaven prior to a seven year tribulation? Can you show me where Jesus or John or Paul ever uses the phrase “Jacob’s Trouble”? Can you show me where anyone ever says we get to hang out on the balcony of heaven watching the world burn and the gay people and Muslims suffer?

              Your system relies on a million examples of things that are not found in scripture. If you want to go down that path, you better be ready.

        • Rogue

          Amen! Thats exactlly what I believe also. This is why its so important to rightfully divide the Bible. Great respose.

    • Mary

      I view the story of Rahab as someone of Faith who Stands in the Gap for her family. I Pray that I can, too. I am a relatively new Born-again Christian and formerly Catholic. My Biblical interpretation may be simplistic but I do pray for guidance and am currently wrapping up my first year of reading it and have started rereading certain sections. I am learning from the many knowledgeable people on this site which I appreciate. I enjoy the comraderie and find most of us of like mind. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

      • Mary, Keep reading God’s word, esteem it higher than any other book or teaching, The Holy Spirit is your teacher, ask for discernment to rightly divide the Word of God, stay close to believers who pray according to God’s will and who are not afraid to admit mistakes and who are humble for God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. There are many deceivers out there teaching this or that from pulpits and on sites on the computer. One mistake I made as a newborn babe in Christ is listening to too many ppl, letting others pull me this way or that way, some became lords over me and reminded me often that being a babe in Christ how little I knew, they were puffed up in themselves and I was a fresh piece of meat, however God had to show me this over time because I didn’t know much so I believed they were right in which they were right about me not knowing much, I still after many years don’t know much and am always learning and will till Christ takes me home but their motives were wrong, they wanted followers of them not followers of Christ. I suffered a lot of things at their hands but God used it to teach me a lot in which I am sharing with you now as a warning to be cautious and let only the precious Holy Spirit lead you into all of the truth, He will never leave or forsake you, not ever! Your coming out of the Catholic church God can use to teach you about teachings that are in error and also He can use you to help other Catholics when the time is right in which He will show you.
        I didn’t grow up in a godly house and wasn’t taught about God’s goodness, God was used in my home to scare me into doing what others wanted me to do but when I became born again and as a newborn babe I realized how great and loving God truly is, btw when I testified to family members about how God changed me I was shunned and treated even worse but regardless I was so hungry to learn all I could. It seemed that teachers were coming out of the woodwork to teach this or that to me, they were taking the work God alone begun in me and taking God’s place in my life, I was given so many books and it caused a lot of confusion in me when the most important book was the king james bible for God will be your teacher. Now, I am not saying never listen to preachers or teachers just know that if you have a red flag (where something doesn’t feel right) go off in you about a teaching from man or woman, don’t dismiss it or think like I did by making excuses and dismissing the red flags because I thought they knew so much more than me in which some did but some were not sent by God to teach me but the enemy used them to trip me up, of course I didn’t know that at the time and I always questioned them but I should have just taken my concern to God and not asked them anything because by questioning them, they would beat me with harsh words that I should just listen and obey what they say which caused me unnecessary grief, so when you have a red flag come up take your concern to God and wait for Him to show you the truth in His word. And don’t ever lose that child like faith for such is the Kingdom of God. I am praying with you for your growth which comes from desiring the sincere Word of God. Jesus has given you the Comforter, Counsellor, Holy Spirit to lead you into all the truth. Stay in God’s word and every time you hear words from a teacher or preacher or fellow believer, read the passage they refer too, read the whole thing in context like the Bereans who didn’t care who a person claimed to be, they always checked out and studied God’s word to see if what was being said was truly of God. What I’ve said here might be off topic but this was my experience and the devil who is a sly ole’ serpent will try to trip you up as well as he tries with all of us so I hope and pray what I’ve shared will be of help to you. Welcome to the family of God, you are so precious to the body of Christ and to God Himself, never forget that, stay humble as you are and God will lift you up. Keep trusting in the Lord with all of your heart and lean not to your own understanding. Read Isaiah chapter 40 and 41. All my love in Christ Jesus 🙂

        • Heather

          Amen and Amen sister Grace! Excellent advice.. may God bless you and Mary both!

      • Rogue

        Welcome to the family. I also grew up in the catholic church. And studied many religions in search for truth, in search for God. I have been saved for 6 years now. I was saved in a pentecostal church, the great thing was that we had some amazing Christians who guided me and my husband. We had Bible study in our home and this helped us to deeply study scripture. Because we were responsible for leading the group. We had to have a teaching prepared every week. This really helped us to grow spiritually. We had prayer vigils when we began seeing our church and our pastors teaching unscriptural messages. It was very sad and difficult because we were led there by the Holy Spirit. The pastors were the people used by God to save our family. We visited them and explained the things we had seen for the last year we were there and said goodbye. After two weeks, we had several churches we had been invited to. The first church we visited was the church we go to now. It is a Baptist church, and I am so greatful to God. From the moment we sat down that first day the preaching was talking to us. From experience, I know not to follow any man. But our pastor and his wife are such humble, devoted and knowledgeable servants. We have learned so much and our children also. I share my experience with you so that you know that this path is very narrow. The enemy is infiltrating so many churches today. We must always wear the full armor of God as mentioned in Ephesians 6! We must have a strong prayer life, and study scriptures. This is important for dicernment. After 6 years, I am still learning, and have so much more to learn. But I can easily detect most false teachings. There are some teachings that are more difficult, but my pastor is usually very helpful in helping me find the answers in scriptures. I recoment to always use KJV only. And to be careful not to follow emotions, as our old church had an amazing worship group that filled everyone with great emotion. But their preachings were doctrinally dry. Watch out for preaching that emphasises in prosperity, obedience and submission to your church leaders, and tithing. Though these are good things, they are usually used out of context and in an unscriptural way for their own personal gain. God bless you Mary!

    • MICHAEL

      Correct, Geoffrey! Acts 2 is to Israel, period. Verses 14-37 tell who the audience was and what the message was; not one mention about Israel getting saved by the blood of Christ (as individuals or as a nation). The whole message, as in Stephen’s discourse in Acts 7, Israel killed their Messiah. Then comes the first question in Acts, in verse 2:37, the question is (in light of us being pricked in our heart for murdering our Messiah), ” What shall WE (as a nation) do?”

      Nothing about being born again by the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary’s cross. It’s “What shall we do?” Peter says “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS…..”
      Not the REDEMPTION sins or “the taking away”, but for the REMISSION, which the Holy Spirit defines for us in Romans 3:25 as the “…sins that are PAST, through the forbearance if God.”
      So, the first question in Acts is from national Israel who just murdered their Messiah.

      The second question in Acts is in Acts 9:6 after Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus. The question is ” Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” That question comes from a converted sinner, Saul of Tarsus.

      The third question in Acts is in Acts 16:30 by the Philippians Jailor and this is the question to ask to get saved, ” WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?” Now, that’s THE QUESTION everyone reading on this blog needs to ask.
      Acts 16:31, ” believe on The Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALT BE SAVED”. And also notice they were baptized AFTER they received Christ as Saviour!

      Yes, an honest person, who studies their Bible, will have to come to the conclusion that:
      1. The Old Testament and the New Testament are different.
      2. Christ didn’t die and shed his sinless blood until Calvary and upon his death, the New Testament begins.
      3. Christ’s blood redeems us.
      4. The blood of bulls and goats only covers sins that “are past” , but CANNOT TAKE THEM AWAY (great discourse on this in Heb. 9 and 10).
      5. In the end, everybody within shouting distance of this blog must as the question, “What must I do to be saved?” There is only one answer, brethren, and that is “believe on The Lord Jesus Christ and THOU shalt be save” period.

      As to the scarlet thread,…… it was a scarlet thread. It may “represent” a type of blood, but in the end it was what the book says….a scarlet thread!

      • charles england

        Yes,it’s still the blood of JESUS that brings VICTORY to me…but, we are called to be HOLY and do the fathers WILL,till the end;Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
        Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
        Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
        Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
        Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
        Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
        Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
        Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
        Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
        Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
        Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
        Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
        because thou hast left thy first love.
        Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
        Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
        Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

      • Amen, spoken like a Bible believer!

        • Pete

          Geoffrey, in your view, why did the blood of bulls and goats in the OT have power to give remission of sins for 1 year?

          • Remission of your sins is not the same as FORGIVENESS of your sins. If your cancer is in remission you are kept alive but not cured. Acts 2:38 Peter didn’t preach how they could have their sins forgiven, he preached how to have them put into remission. He preached OLD TESTAMENT doctrine….that’s why OT saints went to Abraham’s Bosom and not to Heaven until Jesus went to the cross.

            • Pete

              Geoffrey can you please answer my question? Why did the blood of bulls and goats in the OT have a remission effect on sins for 1 year? Why did God accept that sacrifice as REMISSION of sins?

            • Why don’t you tell me?

            • Pete

              I am answering your “why don’t you tell me?” question here, since the reply limit was reached. Hope you see this. I think it’s obvious that the feast of atonement, and the other sacrifices, were acceptable to God because they pointed forward to Jesus Christ and the cross. Those sacrifices would have been meaningless without the finished work of Jesus.

              Once Jesus FINISHED the work, the types and shadows were done away with. They are gone forever, REPLACED by the perfect 100% complete work of Jesus, who is our high priest, whose blood is on the heavenly mercy seat, atoning for sins FOR EVER and Jesus FOREVER SAT DOWN on the right hand of God. Read Hebrews 8-11.

              Dispensationalism teaches that none of this work was forever, it was only for the so-called church age. And only for members of the church who are just passing through this short 2000 year time span. I don’t know how much plainer “forever” can be.

              (By the way, please notice that all of these truths are 100% reliant on symbolism and allegory. Yes. They are SPIRITUALIZED. Something dispies hate. But the atoning work of Christ depends on it. And guess what else? God calls these spiritual versions of these things the REALITY, while the actual physical bulls and goats and blood and altars and priests were just the type and shadow.

              God says symbolic things are more real than the physical counterparts. God doesn’t differentiate like we do.)

            • Well, seeing as you are going to a different dispensation by invoking the book of Hebrews let me ask you this. Did you sin last week? Last month? Or at all since you were saved? Because if you did Hebrews says it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to be ‘renewed again’.

              “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)

              We teach DISPENSATIONS because if they don’t exist then the Bible is a hopelessly contradicted Book. So which is it? Hebrews is primarily addressed to the Jews in the time of Jacob’s trouble AFTER the Church Age and AFTER the Rapture.

            • Pete

              I hope you will consider answering whether you agree with me, that the sacrifice of Jesus was the reason God accepted the animal sacrifices. They pointed to His Son. Otherwise they would have been worthless.

              Regarding your objection with Hebrews….once again, you are reading into this passage with a bias towards dispensationalism, rather than just reading what it plainly states. And you are not considering the original audience, although you probably think you are.

              Hebrews 6 says nothing about someone losing their salvation. A simple reading of it says one of two things:

              The author is talking about people who never were saved, but rather who had only been “enlightened”, who had “tasted” these things, who had “partaken of the Holy Ghost”. It doesn’t say these people were saved, redeemed, born again…or that they had the Holy Ghost living within them, or that they were in the body of Christ. Do they have eternal life? No, and they never will, they have ultimately rejected Christ and thus have sealed their fate.
              Or, the author is talking about people who were saved, and have fallen away. And at some point, they are so far gone they can never be renewed again to the repentance they have. They lose out on all of the blessings of the Christian life and growth in the Lord. I know people like this….they were truly saved and one day they toss it all away and become atheists. Do they still have eternal life? Yes, if they really were saved. Only God knows.

              Either one of these explanations works. And either way, the author is speaking to Hebrews in the early days of Christianity, as the New Testament was being written, as revelation was being unfolded. There were a LOT of unbelieving Jews in those days. I think the author is Paul, and he is directly referring to those people. They are those who were so close…they were given all of the good things of God all their life, of all people they should have been saved. But instead they gave themselves over to the old rudiments of the law, rejecting Christ. I think there were many Hebrews fitting that description that Paul called his brethren. Sadly, they never were able to be saved.

              These same people are described in 2 Timothy 3:1.

            • charles england

              Geoffrey,Heb :6 is talking about willfull sin,not just any little slip of the tounge,and as far as renewing unto repentance it’s talking about blashpeming the spirit(which btw is the only unforgivable sin),or denouncing CHRIST .And as for this bull about Jews and Gentiles,shurely you know there is no difference,once we’re saved,we’re all the seed of Abraham.

            • All sin is willful sin, man had never yet sinned unaware or by accident.

          • charles england

            Pete,all I can say is …WOW…Are you reading the same bible I am? Don’t you think a person would have to have been saved to (partake of the HOLY GHOST?)

            • Emily

              I wonder if Paul is talking about the one unforgivable sin: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? The HS testifies to Christ and his resurrection within us.

            • Pete

              charles, what’s partaking mean? It isn’t “being indwelt by” the Holy Spirit. Clearly the writer of Hebrews is saying that those people partook of the blessings of the Holy Spirit but never took the final step of faith to have the Holy Spirit in them. I have friends like that. They hang around Christians and enjoy the fruits of the Lord’s influence on us. They see the fruit. They tell me they see the fruit. They tell me they want that fruit for themselves. Unfortunately when we tell them they must accept the free gift of salvation, they refuse to do that.

            • charles england

              Pete:partaking means taking part:In order for one to take part in the HOLY SPIRIT one has to be saved;the only thing the SPIRIT will do b4 your saved is draw you and convict you of your sins…

            • Pete

              So you believe people can lose their salvation? I am not sure where you are going with this. To pick apart what “partake” means, is a lesson in futility. The greek word is “metochos” which means sharing in, taking part in. Doesn’t sound the same as being indwelt by. If you are going to base your belief on what ” made partakers of the Holy Ghost” means, I think that’s a little tenuous. Paul talks about them” tasting” the word. Sure seems like the entire passage is about someone close to the truth but not quite there. Just like the seed that lands on bad ground and never takes root.

            • charles england

              Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
              Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
              Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
              Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath tr

              espassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
              Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
              Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
              Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

          • Pete,
            Hebrews 6 is refering to Israel, who while they were under the law, saw the miracles we are told about in the Old Testament, and in that “…tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come…” This was all experienced while Israel was under the law.

            What they fall away from is the faith, trust they had in the father through the law, that would have saved them if they had trusted in Christ as the fulfillment of that law they had been under. As they continue living under the law, they can not receive Christ as their personal savior. Rom.7:1-7. They continue to believe that keeping the law will save them. This is why it then becomes impossible to renew them again unto repentance. They have truly crucified to themselves, making it personal, the Son of God afresh.

            The fact that Gentiles have never been under the law makes it impossible for this to be refering to anyone but Israel. The Hebrews.

            • Larry/vietnamvet1971

              edwitness, you are exactly correct,

        • Geoffrey, in response to you saying “All sin is willful sin, man had never yet sinned unaware or by accident.” I don’t agree because, Leviticus 4 deals with sins of ignorance. Jesus forgave our sins we don’t even know we commit, we are that utterly depraved and fallen. We both willfully sin and unintentionally and unknowingly sin, we can sin and not even know it. The Bible says in Psalm 19:12 – Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

    • charles england

      For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    • Larry/vietnamvet1971

      thanks for a good article..always learning from GODS Word on NTEB.

      • Thanks Larry/vietnamvet1971,
        I used to believe that you could lose your salvation based on the Heb.6 passage, but I still had so much trouble with the other passages that were clearly saying otherwise. There is simply no way around the fact that when we come to Christ we “are a new creature“. How do you UN-create what God has created? 1 John 2:19 says you can not when he says “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us”.

        So when people who seem to have the truth leave their love for Jesus they prove John’s words to be true. I know someone who is saved that has made some very bad decisions in their life. On the outward they would appear to be as far from being a Christian as anyone could be. But, when you ask them who they trust for salvation, they have an amazing testimony. They are making their way back to lining their choices up with what they truly believe again after some time of being way out there. I suppose if I believed you could lose your salvation, I would have to believe they are getting it back again, right? But, if you believe Heb. is for the church age believer, then according to Heb.6:4 it is not possible.

        Believing you can lose your salvation once you have truly been born again is contradictory to the scripture. Those who believe that you can lose your salvation are, to one extent or another, under the law. Legalism causes this kind of thinking. It is man’s wisdom, not God’s.

        Blessings brother:-}

        • Pete

          edwitness I agree with you about losing salvation, but it isn’t necessary (or profitable) to just toss the whole book of Hebrews into a different dispensation. Or to say it’s only written for the Jews. I already said that chapter 6 is talking about unbelieving Jews. Paul is challenging them to put off their fleshly religion. Again, Hebrews 6 isn’t talking about a saved person, but rather a person who is religious and close to the truth, never taking the final step to conversion. If you claim that the whole book of Hebrews is not for the church age believer, you lose very important salvation-critical doctrines, such as the fact that Jesus Christ is our High Priest who fulfilled the atonement in His own blood. Hyper-dispensationalism leads to the teaching that the New Covenant and the atonement has not yet been made.

        • charles england

          Ya’ll need to read romans ch.11 …olive tree;
          Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
          Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
          Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
          Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

          • charles england

            There is niether jew nor gentile when we get saved,we are all of the seed of Abraham;The whole Bible is written for us as a guide and example.We should use it all ,not just the part you like !!!!

    • hrgreenjr

      Well said, Pete! These guys are reading too many books other than the Bible.

    • hrgreenjr

      Yes, Pete! Good stuff. Hyper-dispensationmalism makes God out to have a case…a bad case of “alzheimers” in reference to the ONE GOSPEL, that was once delivered to the saints!

    • Michelle

      Well for me Heb. 6:4-6 has always confused me. As a new Christian over 20 years ago, I believed that I was saved because I repented of my old way of life and believed in Jesus to take my sins away. But as I grew older, I began to see that “faith without works is dead” – therefore, it is not only faith that saves, but it is also works that show that your faith is real. Works don’t save. Works just prove whether or not your faith is genuine. A person can have a head faith and not be saved. With a heart faith, a person is saved and their works prove it. Do I still sin? Yes. Too many times to count I say things I shouldn’t say or think things I shouldn’t think. I don’t think that because of this I lose my salvation. I lose my potential rewards though and that is pretty depressing. Ultimately, I have eternal salvation but I still wonder whether or not the rapture will be for all Christians or only for those whose works are right with God. It is very confusing to me.

      • Hey Michelle

        Funny how all those who believe that Christians can “lose their salvation” also believe that Christians can “get their salvation back” even though both Hebrews ch 6 and Hebrews ch 10 specifically says that it is IMPOSSIBLE to renewed again and that there remaineth NO MORE sacrfices for sins! They are professional cherry-pickers.

        As far as your rapture dilemma, by standard of measurement are you using to determine Christians who are “right with God” ? If you use the Holy Bible as the standard, NONE OF US are completely right with God! (1 John 1:8 KJV). The only other positions forces you to subjectively measure yourself among other Christians which is not wise and a sin to do (2 Cor 10:12 KJV)

        Hope this helps.

        • Pete

          Jimmy, again Hebrews 6 and 10 are both stern warnings to Jews that they need to heed the Gospel and accept Jesus Christ, and not turn back to their sins or their Old Testament rudiments in the hopes of being saved. See, in that day there were corrupt Jews who thought they could sin freely all year long, and then just do the sacrifice on feast of atonement, and it was all good. Paul says no…they have to fully accept Jesus Christ because “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

          //They are professional cherry-pickers.// Who is? People who don’t believe your twisted dispensational logic? Jimmy….I 100% guarantee you, that you did not learn this dispensational theory on your own. Someone taught you the system. No Christian reading the Bible would ever come up with this on their own.

          • I wasn’t even speaking to you Pete

            I know the context of Heb 6 and 10. The message was to those who use Heb 6 and Heb 10 to teach that Christians can lose their salvation. But you’re still trying to figure out what the gospel is Pete, so I understand.

            • Pete

              Jimmy, that is an arrogant thing to say, but I forgive you. You don’t know me and I know I can come across harsh. I will try to tone it down. I get fed up with rhetoric and dogma but I should be kinder.

    • pam

      @Michelle,

      Faith alone in Christ alone. The Rapture is for ALL believers in Jesus Christ. You don’t deserve salvation and you can’t earn it. If you believe in Christ you are saved. All works should be done in the power of the Holy Spirit or they are dead works. So God gave us 1 John 1:9 so we can be filled with the spirit and the fruit you produce will be in the power of Christ that is divine good, not human power which only produces dead works which is human good, wood, hay and stubble. If you are growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ through the Word of God you will produce divine good. Worry and fear are sin, confess it and move on, strengthen the things that remain. Seek His face everyday through his word in the power of the Spirit. Be blessed.

    • Pete

      Michelle, I would be interested what Geoffrey and the other dispensational people say in response to your frustration. One answer that might help is that the Apostle Paul struggled with the same things:

      Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

      Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (sounds just like “Too many times to count I say things I shouldn’t say or think things I shouldn’t think”. I can relate!)

      Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    • pam

      I meant “His Word”. oops

    • pam

      Dispensations are all through the bible. They are called “epochs”. The OT looks forward to the cross and the NT looks back at the cross. Dispensationalism is a theological truth. I’m not being critical here, but those not being taught these very important doctrines by a pastor teacher and then personally searching the scriptures to see if these things are so are always going to be questioning and doubting every single doctrine in the Bible, including the doctrine of salvation. In the OT something had to die, it was a temporary covering of sin and that’s how they were forgiven, and it was the foreshadow of the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We are living in the Church Age, the Age of Grace. Jesus Christ was the final sacrifice, the ONCE AND FOR ALL. Cain brought a sacrifice from the ground, Abel brought a bloody sacrifice, there was a difference between their offerings. It always had to be a blood offering to cover sin, something had to die. Adam and Eve had to kill something to cover themselves as fig leafs didn’t cut the mustard for their sin against God, they had to kill an animal and use the skins as a covering for their nakedness, they didn’t loose their salvation when they ate the fruit, God had no choice but deal with them regarding the issue of sin.

    • pam

      The entire Christian life is based on the grace of our Lord and Savior. This fact should encourage and give peace to the believer. FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE! I can never say this phrase enough.

      • Jim Black

        GRACE ALONE, through faith alone, in Christ alone:)

    • carson

      hebrews 11:4 should be added when looking at Abel and Cain. Abel did what He did because of faith and that faith showed him righteous, the same as abraham who came after, faith was always the deal, then was in God yet they came to know of Christ who was to come before He came and is how we got all the prophecies about Christ but anyway then faith today faith and anything ‘worked’ or done was based because of faith but today one can’t say they have faith in God if their a Christ rejecter since then they do not know God and that faith is dead since they dishonored the Son they have dishonored the Father who sent Him.

      @Michelle, works perfect faith james 2:22, and again with abel, by faith he offered a better sacrifice…faith made him act, caused his actions and so it is today and yeah if one say’s they have faith yet they have no works their faith is dead.
      When you consider it, how could faith not produce works or actions? But faith came first and is a gift and produces the actions thus works perfect faith and not faith perfects works lol.
      And we all have works yet we seldom mention them as there a product of faith, and faith is the gig and is a gift and all because of God, so God even gets the glory for works since He had mercy and granted the faith to begin with, not to mention ephesians 2:10, 1st cor 4:7..

      and what are works or actions of faith? Are actions of faith feeding the poor only? Or loving Christ and gathering with Him and bearing fruit along with the more outward actions of feeding poor etc..? If one say’s they have faith yet never gather with the Lord as example..don’t love Him, is that faith alive? or dead? Many confess Christ yet have no idea anything He said and have never desired to is what I see alot of today, as a newborn baby desire the pure milk of the word it’s written..so without a desire to eat (and a newborn does all it can to eat huh..) are they stillborns? Yet they might feed the poor, but works without faith are just works, and none are saved by works without faith.
      By grace through faith..

    • I am thankful for this article. Thank you Geoffrey. I didn’t know that it was called the “scarlet thread,” but it sheds light on the faith deemed as righteousness by God.

      • It t’was written by Bro. Jimmy, and yes I agree, awesome article!

    • Agree with Pete, the parable of the sower is invaluable in understanding those verses in Hebrews. Such people that fall away are people who received the seed into shallow, rocky, thorny ground. They were never really truly saved, they were “almosts”, and “for a seasons”. A bit like Saul, he started out ok, but as time went on, it became evident that the seed had not found good soil. I love NTEB, I am a regular reader, never posted before, but dispensational salvation is utterly wrong. It creates confusion, it takes away from Jesus, it takes away from his work on the cross. It fails to recognize that the OT was just as much about Jesus as the NT is. It’s a shame that you have to eliminate parts of the Bible writing them off as another dispensation because you cannot reconcile them with the teachings of Paul, you are only cheating yourself. There are no contradictions. Works FOLLOW salvation, James makes it clear. Someone who is truly saved will produce works. The works in the OT were an outworking of faith … ie BY FAITH Abel, Noah, Moses etc. They did works, we did works, not to be saved, or ensure our salvation, but because we ARE saved. The Bible harmonizes perfectly together, the entire Bible is a testimony of Jesus, start to finish. It is his blood, and his blood alone. The Spirit, the water, the blood bearing witness in the earth, Jesus was the embodiment of the Spirit, the water, the blood. Salvation is by grace through faith. Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world! If there are any works involved, then grace is no more grace. Grace and works have no part with each other, past present future. Hopefully the Spirit of truth guides you into all truth, I pray as much.

    • i’m dispensationalist, regular, freewill baptists.
      dispensation is only about rites. (john 4:23-24)
      not about salvation.
      salvation is always and only available through faith that one is a sinner and should be punished in eternal hell and require sacrifice to free one from that punishment.
      that apply to old and new testament. to all dispensations.

      all rites are only symbol and pointing to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
      (hebrews 9)

      and hebrews 11 explain that all the works of OT saints came from faith.

      it’s faith that saves.

      • It is Christ who saves. Faith is the gift of God to one who has been born again by the Holy Spirit. Faith has to have an object to believe in. Jesus Christ the Son of God is the object of saving faith. It is His finished work on the cross that we by faith believe in. Jesus paid it all and salvation is the eternal gift of God for all those who savingly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

        • it’s faith that saves. Christ’s finished works do not apply to anyone who choose not to believe.
          one have to accept the free gifts, that’s why it’s called gifts and it’s called love.

          no gifts and no loves can be forced.
          it have to be accepted by faith.
          (Ephesians 8)

    • Phil

      This is an interesting subject with lots of avenues to explore. Ultimately, I believe that everyone who is saved is saved on the basis of grace through faith, which is why I don’t like our dispensation being titled as such. Abraham believing God resulted in him acquiring righteousness. The works of the law never saved anyone. Redemption is a sweeping, wholesale accomplishment that comes to mankind courtesy of the work that Jesus Christ did on the cross.

      • @Phil

        So what do you do with verses like 1 John 3:12 that specifically state that Cain and Abel were deemed righteous / unrighteous based on their WORKS? Do you just ignore it?

        • Pete

          Jimmy, more scripture twisting. “what do you do with verses”??? For starters we actually read the verses and then actually recite what they SAY, not attempt to confuse people by changing the subject of them. Here are the verses:

          1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

          1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

          Errr….this says absolutely nothing about righteousness and eternal life. This says these 2 brothers’ works were righteous, or unrighteous. It is in the context of loving one another. Do you see verse 11, Jimmy? That’s called CONTEXT. Something dispies really don’t get. These verses are not at all teaching that Abel was saved by his own righteousness. They are merely pointing out the difference between love – and not love. Is killing your brother a righteous act Jimmy? Is it love, Jimmy?

          Try again.

          • More lying huh Pete:
            .
            “Errr….this says absolutely nothing about righteousness and eternal life. This says these 2 brothers’ works were righteous, or unrighteous. It is in the context of loving one another. Do you see verse 11, Jimmy? That’s called CONTEXT. Something dispies really don’t get. These verses are not at all teaching that Abel was saved by his own righteousness. They are merely pointing out the difference between love – and not love. Is killing your brother a righteous act Jimmy? Is it love, Jimmy?”

            READ THE BIBLE PETE. The verse says that Able was declared righteous BASED ON HIS WORKS. You probably haven’t read the entire Bible so let me inform you that Abel DIED shortly after his WORKS were declared righteous with God.

            WHERE did Abel go after he died Pete? Based on WHAT Pete? It wasn’t because Abel believed or preached Acts 16:31.

            Your clear avoidance to addressing these questions show complete deceit and ignorance with your position.

            • Pete

              I am reading the Bible, sir, and the verse you are using says this: “And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.”

              This verse asks “Why did Cain kill Abel? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s were righteous.” It’s a lesson in why people do things. They are not acting in love. This verse has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or eternal life or what saves people. I don’t see anything here that says anything like that at all. You are reaching. Try finding a different passage to make your point.

              //WHERE did Abel go after he died Pete?//

              In the grave just like everybody else. But if you mean “was Abel saved?” My answer is YES absolutely. Abel has eternal life and will spend eternity with Jesus Christ, along with us.

              //Based on WHAT Pete?//

              His faith in God, like everybody else.

              //It wasn’t because Abel believed or preached Acts 16:31//

              I never said it was.

        • Why was Abel’s gift acceptable and Cain’s not? Both Cain and Abel were taught and knew that blood had to be shed but Cain chose to rebel against God’s way and instead offered up his own sacrifice, this is why God didn’t accept Cain’s gift, he should have taken his produce and purchased from Abel the proper animal to be offered up to God. Cain knew God’s voice, none of them were ignorant to what God required. It was not the work in and of itself that was rejected but Cain rebelled and didn’t obey God’s will as to what sacrifice was to be offered, the action shows the faith, he had no faith in God’s commandments and didn’t obey whereas Abel had faith and obeyed. James 2:17,18 vs17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
          There are many ppl who do good works, who help others but they are not believers in Christ Jesus and are not saved no matter how many good works they do, one is saved by faith in the sacrifice Christ made on the cross and in accepting salvation based on what Christ did and He alone through grace, there is an action required to repent and believe on Christ and faith in the atonement made. Faith w/out works is dead and works w/out faith is dead. They go hand in hand but lest anyone gets puffed up because of works remember that God resists the proud but gives grace unto the humble. My faith in Christ and what He has and is doing in me daily causes me to do good works and God looks upon the heart for there have been times where I did a good work but my motive wasn’t right and I had to repent of that and ask God to help me to do things that please Him, to do His will, not my own for not every work tho. might be good in the eyes of others was what God asked me to do. I think this is where there will be those who say, but we did this or that in your name and Christ will say depart from me for I never knew you, they were doing good works of their choosing just as Cain but were not doing God’s bidding and obeying His will. Jesus didn’t heal everyone who came to Him even tho. He could have, He didn’t feed every hungry person tho. He fed many, Jesus went where the Father sent Him and obeyed God’s will and voice, He is our example.

        • it’s easy, the works came from faith. just as hebrews 11 explained.
          http://www.wayoflife.org/database/biblical_repentance.html

        • this should explain better:
          http://www.wayoflife.org/database/questionsonrepentance.html
          http://truelyfanatic.wordpress.com/tag/salvation/

          btw, small correction, what i meant was general, freewill baptist. i’m not regular baptist.

        • Phil

          Jimmy,

          “So what do you do with verses like 1 John 3:12* that specifically state that Cain and Abel were deemed righteous / unrighteous based on their WORKS? Do you just ignore it?”

          Well, the first thing I do is notice that say that they were deemed righteous/unrighteous based on their works. They weren’t evaluated. Their works were, and this was a grace vs works deal. Abel “brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.” In other words, his offering, which was apparently bloody, was the best he had. All Cain had to offer was the best he could do. One offering was a commentary on the nature and mission of Christ. The other was essentially filthy rags.

          *Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

          • Phil

            It’s been a long day. That should read “The first thing I do is notice that they were not deemed righteous/unrighteous based on their works. Cain and Abel weren’t evaluated. Their works were.”

    • Emily

      The scarlet thread is also what was tied to the scapegoat for all the years the Jews made sacrifice before Christ’s death. The ribbon was tied to the scapegoat (a symbol of Christ, just like washing our robes in the blood of the lamb to make them clean and white) and there was a corresponding ribbon in the temple that would turn white. In the 40 years before the destruction of the temple (in other words, the days right after Christ’s death) the scarlet thread did not turn white. The Jews were given a sign that their system of sacrifice was no longer valid because Christ had died as for the remission of sins as prophesied – he died once for all:

      “18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”

      1 Peter 3

    • Amen Geoffrey!!!
      Israel did not look forward to the cross, a dying savior, for salvation. They thought that when He would come He would set up His kingdom right then. Their salvation was based on their observance of the law and their trust in God. Which is not at all the covenant New Testament Christians are under.

      Blessings:-}

      • Pete

        //Israel did not look forward to the cross, a dying savior, for salvation.//

        Believing Israel did, although it took many of them time to come around. The dying Savior is all throughout the Old Testament. Starting with Genesis 3:15. Paul states that “according to the scriptures” Messiah came to die, was buried and rose again (1Co 15:3-4). Jesus came to DIE for the sins of Israel, that was His mission. And He accomplished it.

        //They thought that when He would come He would set up His kingdom right then.//

        They were correct, they just didn’t understand the nature of His kingdom. Apparently you don’t either. It was not – and is not – one of a physical golden throne in Jerusalem, but a spiritual heavenly kingdom, that arose out of His death on the cross. They were used to kingdoms being won by kings who fought battles and killed enemies. Jesus did not do that, His sword is His word (Rev 19:15, Rev 19:21).

        //Their salvation was based on their observance of the law and their trust in God//

        Only according to dispie theory. Not according to the Bible. The Bible clearly states that faith is what saved people, for example Abraham, and the works were the proof of such faith. (Rom 4:3 – which references another Old Testament verse).

        You believe in dispensationalism, not the Bible. You are truly missing out on the blessings of what scripture teaches in favor of an end-times story, a fairytale, that makes you feel good. And a framework that claims to “explain all of the problem verses in the bible.” It certainly does that, but it does it by changing words….adding words….ignoring words….the very words of God. Scary stuff. I would run the other way if I were you.

        • Pete, I don’t know you but as I’ve read your comments I agree with what you are saying as it lines up with God’s word and I agree with a few others who have shown to be stating God’s word in context, the rest of this is causing confusion which isn’t of God, where confusion is there is every evil work, I began to feel confusion when reading some of these things here but I quickly throw it away and just simply believe what God says in His word and if He wants to teach me differently He will but one thing I have learned after coming out of so many false teachings is this, God showed me to stick to the calling He called me to in the beginning and now anytime I feel confusion I remember that word from the Holy Spirit and I let it go, reject it, the adding on or assuming this or that or taking scripture out of context I refuse to have anything to do with. I agree with you that Christ is shown throughout the Bible from Genesis through Revelation, not sure how anyone could refute that.

          • Also Pete, thank God for your boldness in speaking up, this was frustrating me and I hate that feeling so thank you for allowing God to speak through you to give peace to my mind and to others. I will Bless the Name of Christ Jesus forever!

            • Pete

              Thank you Grace!

        • Pete,
          Of course the OT had Jesus’ sacrifice all through it. But, not even Peter believed in a dying savior. “From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
          Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
          But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Mt.16:21-23

          And those who killed Him did not either. That is why they said “He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him“. Mt.27:42

          • Pete

            Ed, you wrote

            //not even Peter believed in a dying savior//

            Right, that’s what I said. In fact, the disciples forsook Jesus in His dying hour (Mat 26:56) and Peter betrayed Him.

            That doesn’t change God’s plan at all. God’s plans are not based upon what men do.

    • Think what some people are getting hung up on in here is that prophecy can have more than one fulfillment in the Bible ie. double fulfillment. Peter quoted Joel correctly (of course), Jesus did pour out his Spirit on the day of Pentecost, he still is today, anyone who gets saved receives the Spirit and is born again. The Bible says that we have the firstfruits of the Spirit. But God will pour out his Spirit again, on the 144,000 Jews and those saved during the time of Jacob’s trouble, they will be sealed by the Spirit, God will write his law in their hearts as he has in ours.

      • Pete

        Joseph, “prophecy can have more than one fulfillment in the Bible ” – agreed, it can, but only when the Bible states so. I don’t think we should head down the slippery slope of declaring which prophecies have another fulfillment. Where does that end? And why does Peter declare that Acts 2 is the last days? How many last days of something are there? They were in the last days of the Old Covenant (Heb 1:2).

        • The sun wasn’t turned into darkness, nor the moon into blood on the day of Pentecost. But Peter legitimately quoted Joel because we received the firstfruits of the Spirit as it was poured out on all those who believed (so it was “this is that”), Joel’s prophecy was not contained to just one event – see what Gabriel said to Mary in Matthew 1, and you will realize there is things he said still to be fulfilled – the Spirit is going to be poured out on the 144,000 and those who repent and believe during the great tribulation, Revelation 7 seems to indicate there will be a revival. There is no need to explain it away as a meaningless allegory or force scripture because it doesn’t fit with one’s categorizing of things. God runs on his own schedule, not according to a schedule which we in our finite minds have worked out that he must do. It’s dangerous when we think we have God and the Bible all worked out. We need to humble ourselves and God will show us great and mighty things out of his word which we know not. It’s not a slippery slope when you just read the plain words of the Bible and believe them. I pray God will answer your questions and the Spirit of truth will settle it in your heart. We have been in the last days since Jesus came, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26 – time is nearly up 🙂 I agree with a lot of the doctrine on NTEB, but dispensational salvation really does trouble my spirit, because it is wrong. I know people are convinced of it though, I do not wish to argue, all I hope is that they are not so proud of their doctrine that they will not allow God to reveal the truth of the matter.

          • Pete

            Joseph, thanks but you probably are not reading my responses. If Peter said, in plain language, “this is that which was spoken by Joel”, then it was what Joel said. Period. I don’t care if we don’t understand the sun turning to darkness etc. You don’t change plain text simply because you don’t understand complex allegory. Which is what this stuff is. Allegory. If Peter said that was the fulfillment, then I am going with what Peter said. He was there. You and I were not. Peter was an Apostle. You and I are not. Peter wrote books of the Bible. Peter hung out with the Lord. I could go on.

            You talk about “meaningless allegory”. You dispies love to talk this way, as if allegory is meaningless. That’s silly. The Bible is filled with allegory, a lot of it you and I depend on for our very salvation. Allegory isn’t meaningless by default. God uses allegory and God often says that the allegory is more real than the physical!

            Yes “God runs on his own schedule” but when God uses time texts, He means them exactly as they sound for our understanding, otherwise please explain why God would use them. God doesn’t say meaningless things. (talk about meaningless allegory! You guys don’t even think time texts mean anything!)

            “It’s not a slippery slope when you just read the plain words of the Bible and believe them.”

            Right. Like “this is that.”

            • Sorry, I am using the plain words of the Bible, maybe you didn’t read my response by the sounds of it, as what you said ignores what I said. Revelation 1:1 – The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 6:12 – And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; This is yet to come to pass. It will happen, those alive at the time will see it, it will be literally true. This event directly precedes the day of the Lord, which has not come yet, as Paul established to those who were equally confused in 2 Thessalonians. Allegories, similitudes, like figures in the Bible are based on truth and true events, such as the allegory of Abraham and his two sons. That really happened. There are no private interpretations. “You dispies”, I have illustrated I am not such, I do not believe in dispensational salvation which is wrong on many levels, which fails to take into account that the Bible is about and pointing to Jesus start to finish, which does not account for the fact that you are saved by grace through faith alone, if there are any works involved, then grace is no more grace. The Bible does not contradict. Romans 9:31 – But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Romans 9:32 – Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Galatians said the gospel was preached to Abraham, he rejoiced to see my day Jesus said. Works FOLLOW being saved, we are saved unto good works, we don’t just get saved and stop there, we have a life to live, an abundant life. I believe dispensationalism as it is taught is going down the track of private interpretation and forcing scripture. Finally, yes, God has revealed things to us about his schedule, but we by no means have worked it all out. Acts 1:6 – When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Acts 1:7 – And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. We see through a glass darkly. We God begins to show us things, we begin to realize how much we truly don’t know. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

    • Salvation has always been “of the Lord”. Faith is what has always saved. I am a little shocked that Hyper-Dispensationalism is being promoted here. This article does more justice to refuting it than I could. http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/beware_of_hyper_dispensatinalism.html
      For some reason, I feel compelled to add that doctrinal arrogance in rightly dividing can lead to error in the name of “revelation.” Praise to our Father, the Author of Salvation and peace to all.

      • Doctrinal arrogance, great way of putting it, I called it being puffed up and amen, Praise, glory and honor to God our Father the Author of our Salvation.

    • hrgreenjr

      You are quoting from Matt 7:21-23 I presume. You will note, those who says “Lord, Lord” are doing all kinds of good deeds. “prophecying in his name”, “casting out devils” doing “many wonderful works in thy name.” But Jesus tells them “I never KNEW you, Depart from me ye that WORK inquity.” So, Jesus was saying the “WILL of my Father”, is to “KNOW” Him! Look also at John 6:28-29 The Jews ask Jesus what are the “works” that we might do to “do the works of God?” Jesus answered “This is the work of God, that YE BELIEVE on Him who He hath sent.” Simply put, to enter Heaven you are to have FAITH in Jesus–THAT’S IT, Period! Working the commandments saves NO ONE! It is all of FAITH in every generation, from Abel to the last saint saved. Whether they knew all the details about the “coming seed” who would have his “heel wounded” or until the full revealing of Jesus, as “the Lamb of God who taketh away the SINS OF THE WORLD.” Those O.T. sacrifices and blood sprinkling are references to a coming Saviour. The will of the Father is to “Believe on Him, whom He hath sent.” John 6_28-29

      • @hrgreenjr

        So what do you do with verses like 1 John 3:12 that specifically state that Cain and Abel were deemed righteous / unrighteous based on their WORKS? Do you just ignore it?

        • Pete

          See my comment above. You clearly lack basic reading comprehension skills, or you are deliberately attempting to confuse others. I sincerely hope it’s the first one.

    • //The Bible clearly states that faith is what saved people, for example Abraham, and the works were the proof of such faith.//

      Pete, thanks for the clarity you offer throughout this thread. Once having learned that the false teachings of the RCC have been embraced and become our protestant doctrine, it has been nice to wipe the slate clean and begin again, looking at the word without the RCC influence. This “scarlet thread” idea seems far more competent than what we’ve grown up listening to.

      Throughout the study of Genesis through Judges, and having worked through Luke’s writing to the high priest in Acts, I’m wondering if you’ll provide your thoughts on Israel being a “typology” of God’s faithful. Even Matthew Henry seems to allude to such. It doesn’t seem like “replacement theology.” It seems like God chose Israel as a model, or a picture (a type) of those He would call to know His doctrine. How do you relate to this idea?

      B

      • Pete

        I think Israel was more than a type, but I get where people are coming from when they say that. I think of Israel as being the method by which God entered the stream of humanity, if you will, and began His progressive revelation. He started to really unfold it when He came to Abram and declared that (in hindsight) through Abraham would come Jesus Christ, who would save the entire world, all nations and that all nations would be blessed and brought to God that way. As time went on, God revealed more and more through Israel, until the end of the Old Covenant age came. “When the fullness of the time (that is the age) was come, God sent forth His son.” At that point God opened up all of the revelation of His son to the rest of humanity.

        Of course God had always revealed Himself to Gentiles as He saw fit. It’s evident that He revealed Himself to Melchizadek before Abraham. Or at least at the same time. There was Naaman. There was Ruth. And Rahab.

        Anyway my 2 cents.

        • So, do think Israel will be dealt with differently? Will God save all Israel? or is “all Israel” considered be those of faith?

    • charles england

      Melchezadek was CHRIST

    • Mary

      Thanks Grace for your words of wisdom and advice. I appreciate it!

    • Emery

      When considering questions like this, all it takes, is to see if it is a CLEAR and DIRECT teaching of God, in His inspired word. Since the scarlet thread and dispensationalism is NOT directly mentioned, taught, or even hinted at in God’s word. So, this means it’s MAN’S teaching. Man’s idea, more specifically, RELIGION’S idea and teaching. Therefore, it’s not even worth considering for a moment. It’s a total waste of time.

      Owing to the fact that God, in His inspired word, teaches us that ALL religions of man are false, works of the flesh, and Babylon the Great, we musn’t pay any attention to any religion anyway. We certainly should not listen to any of their teachings, if we want God’s love and blessings. His word even says that He does not even listen to the prayers of those involved in the religions of man.

      So I find this article to be basically an attempt to proffer false ideas and teachings about God and His word.

    • SteveF

      Wow. I found this site not long ago. From my initial reading of articles and the comments accompanying them this was a site focused on the dark world we live in and edifying each other. The ability to articulate a difference of opinion while maintaining respect for each other is not being demonstrated here in this thread.

    • Mary

      Rogue, thank you for sharing your experiences with me! I am currently Church shopping and attending a Holy Spirit driven small church tomorrow! I am very excited and hoping and praying I’ve found a home! I feel I’ve found a Home in this site,too! Thxs!

    • Cedric

      Never mind typology. God has only ever had one way of counting men righteous as Paul so clearly sets out in Romans 4:

      1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

      2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

      3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

      4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

      5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

      6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

      7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

      8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

      Not faith plus works (vv 1-8) Not faith plus ritual (vv 9-12) Not faith plus rules (vv13-15)

      Justification is by faith alone, by grace alone, to God alone the glory.

      • Emery

        Cedric;
        That is very wrong. James 2:26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

        1John 5:3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,

        Faith without works is useless, AND we MUST obey ALL of God’s commands. In other words, we MUST do the ENTIRE will of God, allways, without exception. We MUST live as God demands we live, 24/7.

    • This is heresy. I have had some disagreements with you website, of no real consequence, but this is HUGE and of eternal consequence. I am not sure who is who in the comments, but the majority of you are deceived or deceivers (Jimmy). If none of the OT saints were saved, how do you explain Paul used Abraham’s BELIEF as the example to the Church? Mr. Grider, you are following men, not God. Explain to me how you deal with Acts 3:18-24; Luke 24:44–47, 1 Peter 1:10–12; and of course, Hebrews 11 is irrefutable evidence they believed in the promise of His coming and were saved by FAITH/BELIEF. Not to mention the entire Bible teaching no man was ever saved by works, Isaiah called our works filthy rags, but you are saying their works saved them? but then you say Abel was not saved. I feel like I am reading a post-trib argument – UTTER NONSENSE!

      Some of the misapplications of Scriptures in this article and in the comments are unbelievable.

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