10 More Amazing Proofs For The Pretribulation Rapture Of The Church Of Jesus Christ

Matthew 24:29-31 is the hands down favorite passage of Pretrib Rapture deniers, yet contained in those passages is the very proof that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming are two separate events. Matthew paints a picture of stark terror and physical judgments falling upon the Earth, and then people shall see the 'Son of man' coming down from Heaven. Paul on the other hand, talks about none of these things being connected with the Rapture of the Church. Furthermore, Paul says in the Rapture that Jesus comes for us personally and pulls us up into the clouds with Him, but Matthew says Jesus sends His angels for His elect at the Second Coming.
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Matthew 24:29-31 is the hands down favorite passage of Pretribulation Rapture deniers, yet contained in those passages is the very proof that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming are two separate events

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

The Bible gives Christians in the Church Age a clear command to study the word of God. Not only that, we are also commanded to ‘rightly divide’ what we read there. There are 3 groups in the Bible that God can be talking to any any given time, they are not the same. First you have the Jews and Israel as one group, the redeemed Church as the second group, and the unsaved gentiles which make up the rest of the world population at any given time.

Today we present for your consideration a second installment of our Bible Believers Guide To Understanding The Differences Between The Rapture And The Second Coming. Enjoy!

#1. The 24 elders are wearing their crowns before the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble

Paul says in 2 Timothy that believers will receive crowns in ‘that day’ that takes place at the time of the Rapture of the Church. John, in Revelation 4, is taken up in type in the Rapture and when he gets there he witnesses elders with crowns 2 chapters before the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble in Revelation 6.

  • “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:8 (KJV)
  • “And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.” Revelation 4:4 (KJV)

#2. The Bible doesn’t mention a resurrection at the Second Coming but it does for the Rapture

In Revelation 19:11-21, we clearly see the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the Battle of Armageddon. Church saints mount up on white horses and return with Him. Nowhere in the passage does it mention a resurrection will take place at this time, in stark contrast to the resurrection of Church saints Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 4.

  • “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 (KJV)

#3. Matthew 24 says at the Second Coming the world will mourn, but Paul says at the Rapture it’s a time of rejoicing

Matthew 24:29-31 is the hands down favorite passage of Pretrib Rapture deniers, yet contained in those passages is the very proof that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming are two separate events. Matthew paints a picture of stark terror and physical judgments falling upon the Earth, and then people shall see the ‘Son of man’ coming down from Heaven. Paul on the other hand, talks about none of these things being connected with the Rapture of the Church. Furthermore, Paul says in the Rapture that Jesus comes for us personally and pulls us up into the clouds with Him, but Matthew says Jesus sends His angels for His elect at the Second Coming.

  • “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) – Second Coming
  • “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 (KJV) – The Pretribulation Rapture

#4. The very name given to the time of great tribulation is a direct reference to national Israel and the Jews

In Matthew 24, Jesus says that there will be a time of ‘great tribulation’, but He does not call it so. The actual name for this 7 year period of time is found in Jeremiah 30, where the prophet tells us clearly who this time of trial and testing is for. It’s for Israel. Jacob’s name was changed from Jacob, his name when he was lost and in rebellion to God, to Israel, the name God gave him after he ‘wrestled with God’ and got right. The Bible says that after the physical regathering of Israel, which took place in 1948, the Jews and Israel would be in the land but far from God in their hearts and minds. This is the exact condition we see today in places like Tel Aviv, which is the Sodomite capital of the world.

  • “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

#5. At the time of the Second Coming, Jesus returns from a wedding

Luke says that when Jesus returns for His people Israel at the Second Coming, He has already been to a wedding. Paul tells us that after the Rapture of the Church we meet the Lord for the great Marriage of the Lamb wedding supper. This event has nothing to do with Israel and is for the Church only. At the Second Coming this event has already taken place.

  • “Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.” Luke 12:35-40 (KJV) – Second Coming
  • “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV) – The Pretribulation Rapture
  • “And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” Revelation 19:9 (KJV)

#6. The two openings of the door in Heaven

In the book of Revelation, Heaven is opened two times, and both of them are connected with the Church. In the first one, John, who is a type of the Church, is taken up to Heaven in a type of the Rapture. The second time occurs in Revelation 19 where the redeemed saints already in Heaven mount up on white horses and return with Jesus at the Second Coming.

  • “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Revelation 4:1 (KJV)
  • “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” Revelation 19:11 (KJV)

#7. The day of the Rapture of the Church is unknown while the day the Lord returns at the Second Coming is mentioned specifically

Nowhere in Paul’s writings does he mention the date that the Rapture of the Church will take place. He gives us time clues in 2 Thessalonians, but no actual day. John, on the other hand, tells us in Revelation precisely when the Day of the Lord will occur. He says that the Second Coming happens 1,260 days (three and a half years) after the Jews flee to the Red Rock City of Selah Petra to hide from the Antichrist.

  • “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:2,3 (KJV) – The Pretribulation Rapture
  • “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” Revelation 12:6 (KJV) – Second Coming

#8. The Lord returns to the Earth with His Church not for His Church

Jude talks about Enoch who is a type of a Christian living in the days before the Law of Moses. Enoch walks with God and then one day God takes him up and out of here in a type of the Rapture. Enoch was not Jewish and had no connection to Israel of any kind. That same Enoch prophesied that at the Second Coming, Jesus Christ will return with His redeemed saints already in tow.

  • “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,” Jude 1:14 (KJV)

#9. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb happens in Heaven before the Second Coming

A spectacular event happens in Heaven right before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the Battle of Armageddon, the great Wedding Supper of Jesus and his Bride, the blood-washed redeemed Church. You will take careful note that if the Wedding Supper happens before the Second Coming, then it must be that the Church is already up in Heaven with Jesus. Where do we go on our ‘honeymoon’? We take a Joy ride on white horse and return to the Earth in the triumphal Second Coming. Revelation 19:11 starts the ‘honeymoon’ in amazing fashion! These passages alone show proof positive that the Church is already in heaven prior to the Second Coming, there is no other way the marriage could take place.

  • “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” Revelation 19:9 (KJV) – first the wedding
  • “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:11,14 (KJV) – then the honeymoon

#10. As it was in the days of Noah and Lot so shall it be in the end times

Jesus in the gospels says this time period will be like the days of Noah, and like the days of Lot. Wow, talk about conflicting events! In the days of Noah, a very small group of people are told to ‘get in the ark’, and are saved when the Door closes to shut them in. Jesus in John 10 says that He is the door, thus we see that being in the ark is a type picture of the born again believer being ‘in Christ Jesus’. Not only that, before the judgment falls, the people in the ark are taken ‘up and out’ as they rise above what rages below. So we see that this is a type picture of the Church, redeemed in Jesus the Door, being removed prior to judgement.

In Lot’s day, the opposite happens. Lot is not taken out, he is told to run away! And where does he flee to? Why, he is told to ‘flee to the mountain’. Where do the Jews in the time of Jacob’s trouble flee to? They run and hide to the Selah Petra, where they wait 3.5 years, 1,260 days, for the Lord to come get them at the Revelation 19:14 Second Coming. Who does the Lord come with? Us, the Church.

  • “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Matthew 24:37 (KJV)
  • “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.” Luke 17:28,29 (KJV)

Noah and Lot represent two very different events that have two very different conclusions. So it is with the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming. They are two remarkably distinct and different events with two polar opposite conclusions.

We hope this Bible study has been a blessing to you, please pray over it and be a ‘workman’ as we are commanded to be and run all the references listed here. If you allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you, it will become apparent that the Rapture of the Church  and the Second Coming represent two different groups of people that cannot be mashed together without massive contradictions.

Keep looking up, Jesus is coming to get us soon!

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV)

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • John33

    I mean who cares nobody knows when and i think its just quiet selfish waiting for this so we dont go throught the problems. What about all these lost souls do you mourn and think of them maye your own family members that will go through this ahh but who cares right as long as we safe with jesus right well i would like to stay untill the end serve God and be there for the lost souls before they will burn foever. You guys go sit and watch the rest burn right. And jesus said depart from me you workers of evil!! People think to easy of salvation likes its some kind of easy thing i truly believe a lot are going to be suprised facing God!!!

    • Jimmy

      What can you do that’s equal to God shedding his sinless blood on the cross?? What exactly are you going to do to prove “salvation is not easy” ? What? Show up to church on time??

      • twr

        Jimmy,

        There is only one thing you can do.

        Romans 3:31King James Version (KJV)

        31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

        • Emery

          twr;
          The folks who have the moniker Buffalo Billy, Char, Ron, and Phil and a few others will continue to caterwail back and forth, deriding anyone who doesn’t believe what their religion taught them, but don’t take it personally. Jesus said, that if they persecuted him, they will persecute his followers the same way. If they listen to Jesus’ words, they will listen to his followers words. If they DON’T listen to him, they won’t listen to his followers words. And based on ALL of their posts, they do not adhere to any of Jesus teachings and commands. So they don’t listen to him, therefore they won’t listen to anyone who is Jesus’ follower. Actually, it shows that you’re on the right track when they attack you. If they didn’t, then you’re not telling them the truth. Jesus said it’s a privilege to be persecuted in his name. I don’t let their childishness bother me one little bit. You should look at it the same way. What they say means absolutely nothing at all. It just proves that you’re telling them the truth.

        • twr

          Edwitness,

          Just because I don’t share your strong delusion, does that mean I am not born again?

          • TWR,
            To which God have you trusted in order to be born again? Jesus or??? John 8:24. “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.” By your own words you have admitted you do not believe what Jesus said. And this means you must believe that Jesus is the Creator God to be born again. If He is just a man to you and not God almighty, I AM, then you will die in your sins.

            And just a little later He said it again to them to make it absolutely clear “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58. Is this the God you have trusted? Or is it another? You have already told us it is another. You can not be born again through faith in the law nor through a Christ that is not God almighty. That goes for Emery too.

            Jesus knew exactly what He was saying when He said these things. He was saying He is God. “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” And so did those He spoke those words to. This is why you are not born again any more than they were. But, you could be if you repent from your idols and trust in the I AM, Jesus Christ.

          • Emery

            Ed;
            Trusting in God or anyone in order to be “born again” is to insult Him. GOD chooses who is “born again” since it means He adopts them. HE CHOOSES WHOM HE ADOPTS as co-heirs with His son, Jesus. WE are not able to make that choice. And in John 8:58 Jesus said “…I am the one” not “I am”. And “I am ” doesn’t mean he is God. That’s just mental. Jesus is not God. Period. You insult God in saying His son is Him. You insult Jesus who said repeatedly he is NOT God. Is there ANYTHING you know accurately about God’s word or God or Jesus? Or do you just make it up as you go along? Nothing you ‘ve ever posted is scriptural, it’s RELIGIOUS. NOTHING any religion of man says is true. Only ONE real religion exists, and it’s not one created by man, it’s the “one true faith” that Jesus taught. PERIOD. your continuous insults and falsehoods about God, Jesus, and God’s word is actually insulting to anyone who DOES know God’s word. if Jesus were actually his Father, HE WOULD HAVE DIRECTLY SAID SO. Instead, He continuously said HE WAS NOT God. He said his Father SENT HIM, and that God was GREATER THAN HE WAS, and that he didn’t know the day or hour, but GOD DOES. Who did Jesus pray to, HIMSELF? Who sent him, HIMSELF? Who begat him, HIMSELF? With whom did he work side by side for millions of years, HIMSELF? At whose right hand did he sit, HIS OWN? How can one sit beside one’s self? All of what you say clearly shows that you do not have the ability to exhibit rational, logical thought.

          • TWR,
            You said; “I don’t believe in silly translations. It is irrelevant to me. He is the king of kings. His name is exalted above all other names. He has a father and he has a God“. Sounds almost Mormon. No mystery there though. They hear the hiss of the same serpent you listen to.
            You have made yourself abundantly clear. Thank you.

      • Emery

        God’s blood was not shed, it was God’s ONLY BEGOTTEN SON’S blood that was shed for our ransom to sin.

      • Ron

        Amen Jimmy You Go Brother Preach It!

        We’ll be going home soon and they will eat their own words with bitterness.

        God Bless You Jimmy!

      • Emery

        Now Jimmy, God did not shed His blood on any cross. Jesus did. God’s SON. NOT GOD. God SACRIFICED His son, and His son sacrificed his life for us to have the ability to be forgiven for our sins, if we do what is required of us. Few ever do what is required though. So very few.

        • Alexandra

          Jesus IS God.

          John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

          John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

          Look at verse 1. …and the Word WAS God. Says it right there. Only GOD’s sacrifice on the cross was sufficient, if Jesus were only human and not also God, the sacrifice would have been of NO EFFECT!

          • Emery

            Alexandra;
            The FIRST time I ever translated John 1:1 was in college in 1975 from several dozen ancient texts. Most read “was as a god” and the rest read “a god”. NONE read “was God”. That is a deliberate mistranslation designed to mislead, and it does a very good job of it. The KJV reads “was God”, and it’s the single most deliberately mistranslated “version” of God’s word available. There are not “versions” of God’s word. God inspired ONLY HIS INSPIRED WORD. He didn’t inspire the KJV, or any of it’s revisions, or any of it’s subsequent changes to those revisions. God did not inspired His word in anything but ancient Koine Greek, ancient Hebrew, and a little bit of ancient Aramaic. He NEVER inspired any translations into Olde English, Victorian English, modern Greek, modern Hebrew, Latin, or any other language. Only in the three languages I mentioned at first. There exist over 20,000 mistranslated or missing words in the KJV alone, and there exist added spurious texts within it. The first copy of the KJV had the apocrypha in it and NO marginal notes, except those that MENTIONED the apocrypha. Subsequent KJV versions had no apocrypha, and some had marginal notes referring to them, and some did not. NO 1611 KJV manuscripts exist today. They are all lost to history. All we have are revisions to revisions to revisions. So no, Jesus is not his father, and God the Father is not His own son. That is insanity to think as much.

    • karen

      the rapture teaching is a false one invented by Satan to cause God’s people to be unprepared for the time of trouble ahead, that we WILL go through.

      • twr

        Karen,

        You are absolutely correct. Somebody threw a bunch of scriptures together and created an unscriptural doctrine. If you analyze them on their own merit, you see right through the deception.

      • Emery

        Karen;
        Very correct. It IS a false teaching. It’s SO SAD to see all these people arguing back and forth about pre-trib, post-trib, this scripture and that scripture. They completely misunderstand the scriptures that speak of the first resurrection, thinking it’s some mystical “rapture of the church”. Satan SURE HAS MISLED THEM.

      • Phil

        karen,

        The rapture teaching is essentially about two verses, 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. Assuming that one believes that what they describe will actually happen, all the rest is about when it happens, and who it happens to. There are lots of references, lots of rationales and lots of views. There is also lots of diligence and dedication involved on the part of believers struggling to understand. There is no need to invoke satan. It is none of his fill-in-the-blank business.

        • Yeah Phil,
          I have in the past had some long discussions with TWR. It was in those that he said Jesus is not the creator God but was just a man.
          Blessings:-}

        • Phil,
          TWR clearly rejects the plain reading of the scripture. Eph.2:15 says that “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;”

          Christ came that the enmity (commandments, ordinances) between Jew and gentile could be abolished. He accomplished what He came to do. To make of the two, Jew and gentile, one new man.

          Blessings:-}

          • Ron

            Amen Ed!

      • KENNY KELECHI

        KAREN,
        MY NAME KENNEDY KELECHI. THE LORD HAS CLEARLY SHOWN ME RAPTURE AND WHAT HAPPENS AFTER TRIBULATION. I SAW IT. BLESSED ARE THOSE THAT DID NOT SEE, YET BELIEVED.

        THE SCRIPTURE SHOULD NOT GET PEOPLE CONFUSED AND IF U ARE CONFUSED, WHAT DO U DO? GO TO THE LORD IN PRAYERS, BY HIS GRACE, I HAVE SEEN SOMETHINGS HE ALLOWED ME TO.

        ARGUING ABOUT RAPTURE OR SECOND COMING IS PRIMARY, BUT THE TRUTH BE TOLD, BOTH ARE TWO DIFFERENT EVENT.
        THE MAJOR THING IS, HOW PREPARED ARE YOU TO MEET THE LORD?

        HE SAID: TELL THEM, WITHOUT HOLINESS, NO MAN SHALL SEE ME (3X)

        YOU CAN GET ACROSS TO ME IF U LIKE, ON MY EMAIL OR FACEBOOK OR WHATSAPP

      • Ron

        No it is not! Show me where God ever punished the righteous with the Just (Saved, Born Again, Bride of Christ, The

        Church)

        Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

        God removed Righteous Lot his wife and 2 daughters before destroying Sodom and Gommorha.

        If they who did not have the Righteousness like we have in Jesus Christ were removed from said Judgment.

        What and where do you think God will take his Bride before He destroys and punishes this whole world.

        If You took a husband or have one, do you think if he had some enemies he had to avenge himself of would he

        put you in with them? Who would beat the heck out of their Bride? Oh that is right Satan would and will.

      • Martin

        mmm

      • Emery

        karen;
        There are a LOT of so called Christian teachings and doctrines that cannot be found ANYWHERE in the inspired word of God. BUT they CAN be found in much older PAGAN religions. Fancy that! Seriously, the trinity, the cross, the immortality of soul, and hellfire were not heard of by first century Christians. Most of them didn’t enter Christendom until hundreds of years LATER. I’ve researches all of them, and the history of those teachings is amazing. Change something from pagan religions and inject it into Christendom, and VIOLA! Everyone swallows it like candy. Even though it cannot be found in accurate translations of God’s word. Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is MISLEADING THE ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

        Gee, I wonder why those pagan beliefs were adopted into Christendom, and who was responsible.

        • Alexandra

          You must be a JW or part of the Worldwide Church of God cult or one of its offshoots.

          As for the cross, I believe that a crossbar was fastened to a tree. It would still make a cross shape. In fact, I’ve read that Jesus and the two thieves were on the same tree–not impossible. It would have made conversation between the three easier, given their no-doubt weakened state. It would explain why the soldier broke the legs of one thief, then the other, then came to Jesus–he was going around in a circle.

          The word “death” means SEPARATION, not annihilation or non-existence. The first death–physical death–is separation of the soul from the body. The second death is separation from God. I can’t help but think that if you were annihilated, it wouldn’t be much different from atheism, which claims you cease to exist after physical death. No incentive to look for a way out of that situation, when you think about it. Annihilated? Big deal!

          How do you know pagans didn’t do their own “borrowing”? Who took what from whom? And yes I know about the Catholic cult.

          Yes, hellfire WAS heard of by first-century Christians. Jesus Himself warned about it! The rich man (the account of the rich man and Lazarus was NOT a parable) is still in hell today.

      • Ron

        Did you read the article and its doctrine or did you just conclude that as soon as you read the word Rapture in the title?

      • David

        No. Several of the early church fathers taught a pre tribulation rapture. It is not a new teaching by any means. In addition, the scriptures seem clear. The Rapture is a a pre tribulation event. In fact, the Rapture may happen more than 7 years prior to the Second Coming. Could be 10 or more years before.

        • Emery

          If you are waiting for a rapture, you have a LONG wait, and then you will be disappointed.

        • Alexandra

          This is true. There may be a “lull,” so to speak. Once the covenant is signed, though, that starts the seven-year countdown. The first-century Christians were looking for the coming of the Lord–when they said “Maranatha,” they were saying “Our Lord comes” or “Our Lord is coming.”

          At the end of Revelation John says “Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus.”

      • Alexandra

        Wrong.

        We may still go through troubles before the rapture happens. If anything, if Christians realize that the rapture is imminent, it would make us want to keep busy doing the Lord’s work–which is, spreading the gospel. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

    • karen

      • Steven Anderson is a know-nothing FRAUD who preaches LIES…his little movie is utter nonsense.

        • Emery

          Geoffrey, stating that Steven Anderson is a know nothing FRAUD who preaches LIES PROVES that you have an APPEARANCE of Godliness, but PROVE FALSE TO IT’S POWER. Just like what you do to me. PUT MY SETTINGS BACK TO NORMAL or I WILL run the ad in the Jacksonville papers PROVING your hypocrisy and dishonesty in NOT adhering to your OWN terms of use on NTEB. Either make it COMPLETELY public, or COMPLETELY private. Not some of one and some of the other. And little admin guy, print this and shove it under Geoffrey’s face please. And TRY to do something honest yourself and put my settings BACK TO NORMAL. TRY behaving in a Christlike manner, because you currently ARE NOT.

          • You are quite insane, but I am sure you already know that. Should have pegged you for an Anderson bootlicker from the start. And if you have enough money for ads in newspapers “denouncing NTEB” why don’t you spend it on missions and gospel tracts instead?

          • Emery

            No, not insane at all. And YOU know THAT. Your problem is that you don’t know or want to know the truth of what God’s word really says, and showing others how “PIOUS” and “religious” you are is MUCH more important to you than obeying God’s commands. So you go about teaching things about God and His word and His son that aren’t true, thinking that God will forgive you in the end, but He most certainly will do what He says in His word about that, and he WILL NOT forgive you. He calls people who do what you do His enemy Geoffrey. If being God’s enemy doesn’t bother you, then carry on.

            And you say I am a JW like there’s something wrong with that. No, in fact it’s a PRIVELEGE to serve God in that way. To obey His command to all of us to be His witnesses is a privelege. All who are truly Christian MUST be His witnesses. And we must teach ACCURATELY His word. There are over eight million witnesses for God, and ALL of them know MUCH more about God’s word than you will ever know. All of us reach countless people every day of every year in fulfilment of Matthew 24:14. It’s shameful that you don’t work toward that goal. Very shameful indeed.

          • Emery

            Geoffrey;
            I don’t even know who this Anderson character is, but saying ANYTHING like that about ANYONE is disobedience to God, and is not obeying the commands of Jesus when he walked the Earth. We are to show love to our neighbor, not hatred as you have shown in many of your comments. We are to forgive our neighbor, help our neighbor, and put our neighbor’s needs ABOVE our own. Does your behavior display these things? No, certainly not. I am not defending this Anderson fellow, but I AM telling you what God’s word teaches about conduct and love and behavior Geoffrey. Maybe you can read all about it and brush up on it, and ask God to forgive your wicked behavior and repent of it. I hope you do. I hate to see anyone sin in that way, especially when it affects so many others.

        • Eric Bertolet

          Amen Geoffrey. That angry little man had me very confused…very conflicted for a long time. I began to doubt myself and my God because what I was hearing was not in Gods character…but then, I heard Chuck Missler for the first time. CLICK! Everything began to make sense again. Everything came back into focus again. I COULD trust God. I had failed to obey Gods admonition to “be not deceived” because Steve is definitely an Idol Shepherd.

          • Dan

            @ Emery, you say that while posting on a site owned by Geoffrey Grider a site which reaches Millions promoting Christianity.

            GOD is clearly allowing you to be foolish despite your own intentions; beautifully poetic Lord!

            All of us reach countless people every day of every year in fulfilment of Matthew 24:14. It’s shameful that you don’t work toward that goal. Very shameful indeed.

          • Emery

            Dan;
            No, this site doesn’t promote Christianity. It, in an abstract way, can be said to promote a religion, but not Christianity. And God allows all to be whatever they want to be Dan. He created us with free will. And I am NEVER foolish. EVERYTHING I ever post is completely accurate and truthful with no exceptions. It doesn’t match what you religion force feeds you though. That is why you make your claim Dan. The religion that causes you to behave in a cult like way in defending it, when God said all religions are “false religion”, and “works of the flesh”, and “Babylon the Great”. All religions are God’s enemy. His word says that to change ONE WORD of His inspired word makes one HIS ENEMY. ALL religions change a lot more than just one word Dan. A LOT MORE. None teach the same as any other religion, and none teach the scriptures honestly and completely. NONE. They are ALL enemies of God, and God said He will exterminate them and their participants, very soon now. That’s what it says. You can deny it all you want, but facts are facts. Your denying it is nothing more than wishful thinking anyway. It means nothing.

        • WildwoodCastle – YouTube

          Thank you…

        • WildwoodCastle – YouTube

          Thank you Geoffery

    • Deb

      No I do not just sit and wait for the Lord to come back. I have preached to my family and warned others to get right with God, but he gives everyone a free will. If others won’t listen or say he is not coming back soon, then they are being deceived. Jesus tells us to watch and keep our lamps filled with oil. I pray others will listen and harken to the voice of God but many who know him don’t truly know him. I pray he opens their eyes before the door closes.

    • Salt + Light

      John you say: “People think to easy of salvation like its some easy thing…”

      But, the only part of salvation that any man or woman can control, is to stay standing in faith and believe in Christ’s work. Not anything else, there is nothing at all we can ever do by any of our own works! I’d surely like to hear your explanation of what you mean, because the Word of God teaches…

      “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

      Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

      But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for their is no difference.

      For we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus”. (Romans 3: 19 – 26)

      Why do you think interpretations from the Bible, especially one thought of our “Blessed Hope” to be selfish on the part of the believer? Don’t you know the blessings from God are for all who believe in Christ’s redemption of us at the cross? We, through His grace believe in His ‘free gift’ of salvation; which is justification, sanctification, then glorification.

      “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Romans 3: 27 – 28)

      You say “What about all those lost souls?” You cannot save them, but you can tell them about salvation – Jesus Christ! And you can pray for them too…because this is the time of His grace; the day for salvation – IS NOW!!! It is God who can save them, only by the blood of Jesus!

      “We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that ye not receive the grace of God in vain. (For He saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Giving no offense in anything, that the ministry not blamed: But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses. In stripes, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fasting; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned. By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,…” (2Corinthians 6: 1 – 7…)

      May the Lord Jesus bless you!

    • Ron

      John33 where do you come off with that statement? I have prayed and witnessed to many, not just sat around waiting for

      the Rapture to happen. My mom ignores the message my sister and niece go on facebook and mock Christians and God all the

      time so it is in my wife’s face. All children have accepted The Lord and are all very blessed, because the day I got

      saved I told The Lord my children will know you, because it is not a pastor’s duty to teach your very own children and I

      taught them all even when they were in my wife’s womb I used to talk to them about God and Jesus Christ. And many of

      these Christians here are praying for many lost souls. I woke up at 4:30 this morn and I knew the Lord wanted me to pray

      and that was the very thing I prayed about till after 5 A.M. and went back to sleep. And why wouldn’t we want to be with

      The Lord Jesus Christ Himself, others might not because they are not saved, or are unsure, or too worldly.

      We’ll pretend you didn’t mean that.

      Blessings

    • Emery

      John33;
      Yep. Pretty much you got it. However, hell means common grave of mankind. It doesn’t mean a place of fire and torment. God’s word says that we ARE a living soul that dies, not that we HAVE a soul that survives our death. In fact, it says “nothing survives death” and that “our thoughts do perish”. It also says only a very small number of people are chosen to go to heaven, but they must be transformed into “spirit beings” first, since we don’t have a soul, we ARE a soul. No separate soul to send to heaven or to a hell that doesn’t really exist the way religions teach. No one burns forever John. The “lake of fire” is not hell, it’s a METAPHOR for total destruction. Literally, the lake of fire is the Valley of the sons of Hin-Nom just outside ancient Jerusalem. It was a landfill basically, where they poured sulphur (brimstone) on it to keep it burning constantly day and night, every day. They threw sacrificed animals there, executed criminals, trash, and all sorts of refuse there and burnt it to ash. Total destruction. So you see, what religions teach, is not what God teaches. They don’t teach what the scriptures really say. None of the first century apostles and disciples believed any of that crap. In fact, it never entered Christendom until well after it’s creation in the fourth century. Christianity is not a religion with a church and a clergy and their own doctrines. It’s “the one true faith” taught by Jesus. Religion, and God’s word are TWO SEPARATE THINGS. God and religion OPPOSE eachother. Religion does NOT work in behalf of God, as He said they’re all false and works of the flesh. If you study an ACCURATE translation of God’s word, these things will become apparent.

      But yes, all on this blog I’ve talked to believe only what religion teaches. When I post what God’s word REALLY says, they go nuts and attack and call me names and threaten me and say they hope God sends me to hell. Think about this. If hell were what they teach, it would mean that God and Satan COOPERATE with eachother. God would have to allow Satan to tempt people into sinning, and then God would have an arrangement with Satan where Satan could take those whom he tempted, and TORTURE them for succumbing to his temptations. It could only happen with God and Satan cooperating with eachother. Now does it make sense that they would cooperate when they’re MORTAL ENEMIES? Certainly not. That teaching about hellfire isn’t in the Bible, and nowhere does it say that God and Satan have an arrangement to trick people into being tortured forever in fire. Think about it.

    • Jerry Parks

      This is really to Geoffrey, what I see on your web site blog is a lot of argument and hard feelings. What I don’t see is scriptural proof either in your writing here or in most of the objections to it. I wrote a book on this subject “AND THEN THE END SHALL COME” which is my 2nd. It will make you think. Jerry Parks
      Ps I love most of your articles on current events and their impact on our times.

      • Ahhh, I love when people come to 1). slam NTEB, and then 2). because of our high traffic levels use NTEB for promote their own materials.

      • Soooooo, the TEN REASONS I give for the Pretrib doesn’t constitute “scriptural proof”? Help me out here, not following you.

        • Ron

          rocket scientist 101 or basket weaving 101??????????? I read your article Geoffrey where are the Scriptural Proofs ????????

          You didn’t read his article!

          Look A giant flaming asteroid is coming right at us I have never seen something so huge in the sky, and his buddy says

          Where! Where! He replies how can you miss it!

          Keep Up The Good Work Geoffrey both comments are so valid and true!

          God Bless You Geoffrey!

        • avidtrober

          No, but you’re doing what matters: preaching the gospel in the name of Jesus Christ.

          Eph 4:13 hasn’t exactly come about yet, but in time it will.

          And, when it does, the knowledge part will all be passing while the eternal things do not.

          God bless.

    • Emery

      God DID say we are to hope for, and wait in anticipation, for the end of this system of things, as run by Satan. We are to be on the watch He said, constantly, and to remain faithful and sober while doing it. But he did NOT say there would be some mythical “rapture”, and certainly said nothing about any church. The word in the ancient texts was “ecclesia”. The ANCIENT Koine Greek word meant “people”, or “congregation”, and NOT church, as the MODERN translation of ecclesia is. Why King James the First changed it to church is no mystery, since he was head of the Church of England in 1611, and CHANGED God’s word to match their beliefs, rather than honestly and accurately translate the Bible to match what God ORIGINALLY inspired His servants to write. Over 20,000 words were CHANGED in the creation of the KJV Bible, from the original ancient texts. God’s word itself says that if anyone changes ONE WORD of His scrolls of prophecy, then that man will share in the punishments mentioned in the scrolls, and that man is GOD’S ENEMY. What do you think He will do to people who USE that false translation? He said the same punishment will come upon them as well. The ONLY punishment for sin, and creating, and using a false translation IS A SIN, is DEATH. Not death AND permanent torture in a place of fire and torment, that doesn’t even exist, but JUST DEATH. So using the KJV will render the user a punishment from God of death. Your religion doesn’t teach this, but GOD DOES. Who are you going to believe? Man, or God? Did man create God, or did God create man? Who is smarter and more wise? Certainly, the answer is NOT MEN.

      • Phil

        “The ANCIENT Koine Greek word meant “people”, or “congregation”, and NOT church, as the MODERN translation of ecclesia is.”

        Wycliffe’s Bible called it/them church/churches in Middle English in the late 1300’s.

        Matthew 16:18 And Y seie to thee, that thou art Petre, and on this stoon Y schal bilde my chirche, and the yatis of helle schulen not haue miyt ayens it.

        Romans 16:4 which vndurputtiden her neckis for my lijf; to whiche not Y aloone do thankyngis, but also alle the chirchis of hethene men.

        1 Corinthians 10:32 Be ye with outen sclaundre to Jewis, and to hethene men, and to the chirche of God;

        Revelation 2:23 And Y schal slee hir sones in to deth, and alle chirchis schulen wite, that Y am serchinge reynes and hertis; and Y schal yyue to ech man of you after hise werkis.

        It isn’t really that modern, or relevant.

        • Emery

          It isn’t a translation made in the 1300’s that God inspired. It was Ancient Koine and ancient Hebrew in the FIRST CENTURY for the NT and before the first century for the Ancent Hebrew. What the Ancient Koine word “ecclesia” meant in the FIRST CENTURY is what is the absolute closest to what God inspired, NOT what John Wycliffe directed to be created in the late 1300’s, saying it meant “church”. Remember, changing ONE WORD of God’s inspired word brings the punishment mentioned in the scrolls upon the one changing it, and it makes that one God’s enemy Phil. The one USING false translations and not searching out more accurate informatin also is subject to those same punishments. Who CARES what Wycliffe’s Bible says anyway? Who cares what ANY translation that is falsely translated says? We shouldn’t even TOUCH a false translation, much less cling to it like a life preserver in the middle of the ocean, or call names to one who brings out this information, as many here are prone to do. It is what GOD INITIALLY INSPIRED that we SHOULD care about. NOTHING ELSE. No, Wycliffe’s Bible is useless. It was better than nothing in the late 1300’s, but now that we have the ancient scrolls numbering over 16,000 available to us, we are to use accurate translations and understandings, not the b.s. of religions, all of which are false religion. Not the b.s. of men who twist and lie for their own agendas, like King James the First and all the others who have created false translations. Of the most popular 38 English translations, only two come close to accuracy. Actually, that’s not true, the NWT has a far larger distribution than all of the 38 most popular combined, so none of them really ARE the most popular. We distribute many times more, and in many, many times more translations of the NWT than all other Bibles combined, and have done so for decades. Ours is printed in many hundreds of translations every year, numbering in the tens of millions. It’s completely accurate as compared to all the available ancient texts.

          • Phil

            “Remember, changing ONE WORD of God’s inspired word brings the punishment mentioned in the scrolls upon the one changing it, and it makes that one God’s enemy…”

            A warning like this coming from someone who can walk into a verse, or a passage, or a Testament, and come out the other end having dumped everything it says, I’m not worried.

            Also, there is plenty of information concerning the motivations, politics and methods involved in translating the King James version:

            http://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1601-1700/story-behind-king-james-bible-11630052.html

            http://www1.cbn.com/churchandministry/the-story-behind-the-king-james-version

          • Emery

            No Phil, I haven’t “dumped everything it says”, I’ve posted WHAT IT SAYS. None of you folks KNOW what it says, that’s why you make your false claim. You are of the opinion that the NT was not written BY, FOR, and TO the 144,000, when it was. For this reason you misunderstand EVERY WORD of it. You SHOULD be worried. I am not.

          • Phil

            “You are of the opinion that the NT was not written BY, FOR, and TO the 144,000, when it was.”

            That’s my belief because you, or someone like you, added that concept and those words to God’s word. And that is evil.

          • Emery

            Phil;
            No one “added” ANYTHING. Your statement is so completely irrational and illogical. To start with, all who penned any of the letters of the Greek scriptures WAS, between Jesus’ murder and his ascention, holy spirit annointed. Agreed? The scriptural accounts ALL say they were, very clearly, and several times these accounts appear in the Greek scriptures. Before that, Jesus said “my father has approved of giving you the Kingdom”. He was saying they will go to heaven. He taught that they will be with him in heaven. He taught we have no immortal soul. His father taught we ARE a soul, not that we HAVE a soul several times in the Hebrew scriptures. So no one goes to heaven, unless the Father invites them. Gives them the Kingdom figuratively speaking. Adam BECAME a living soul. It doesn’t say he was GIVEN a soul. Capice?

  • BEtRothedToHim

    So incredibly great is our Savior!! I am so looking and watching! I know our redemption is just around the corner. Maranatha!

  • top

    This is another gross misinterpretation of scripture to make it support your erroneous belief of pre-trib. The events involved with Christ’s second coming are not understood which reveals the need of sound Biblical teaching. Some great men of God who now believe in the pre-wrath second coming once staunchly preached the very same thing you proclaim. I pray that God opens your heart and mind to this truth because I believe only the Holy Spirit can reveal it. However, I am sure you will get many responses to this post.

    • Thanks for your opinion, are you able to refute even a single one of these ten points from the Bible?

      • twr

        Geoffrey,

        I can refute every point you made. Christian eschatology is based on a story that has been told, except for the very end. The Jesus story was about that particular age, which ended with the destruction of the temple.

        Point 1 – Matthew 15:24, 18:11, Jesus mission was only to the Israelites.
        Point 2 – Mark 9:1, Jesus said some standing in the crowd would not die until they witnessed the kingdom of God come with power. Unless there are 2,000 year old people running around, I would say we missed something.
        Point 3 – Malachi 4:5, God is sending the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord. Matthew 17:10-13, Jesus says Elijah already came. They just didn’t know who he was.
        Matthew 24:3, Disciples ask Jesus when will be the conclusion of the age and destruction of the temple. He gave them the signs and in Matt 24:33-35, told THEM, not us, that generation would not pass until the conclusion of all that had been prophesied. 1 Corinthians 15:51, Paul says we shall not all sleep. That is the same thing Christ said in Mark 9:1 to the people right in front of him. It was directed at them, not us 2,000 years later. Matthew 27:53-54, there were earthquakes and dead saints were coming out of there graves walking around the city. Revelation 12:13, Satan was cast out. (Luke 10:18) All of this has happened. This is just a story for this age. We are not active participants. The beast making war with the holy ones happened from 66 to 73 A.D. That is your seven years. A lot of people are going to be disappointed.

        • Phil

          twr,

          “Christian eschatology is based on a story that has been told, except for the very end. The Jesus story was about that particular age, which ended with the destruction of the temple.”

          It cannot end with the destruction of the Temple. We know this because in Luke’s account of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said:

          21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

          The times of the Gentiles is a finite period with a definite end. The “until” marks a point of continuation. Paul notices the same benchmark in Romans:

          11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

          ===

          “He gave them the signs and in Matt 24:33-35, told THEM, not us, that generation would not pass until the conclusion of all that had been prophesied.”

          That depends on what is meant by ‘generation’. In the previous chapter, Jesus blamed the generation he was addressing for things done going all the way back to the murder of Abel. The definition and use of the word does not support your interpretation.

          • twr

            Phil,

            In Mark 9:1 he said some standing there would see the kingdom, not a vision, like John. The Israelites from 66 to 73 A.D. did fall by the sword, and as many as a million were taken into slavery. There is no doubt as to the generation if one will accept truth. Christ came to save that which was lost (Matthew 18:11). He gave his life as ransom for many (Matthew 20:28). Hebrews 9:15 says it was for the transgressions of saints under the first testament. The generation would have been the last generation before the resurrection. When you compare Mark 9:1 with Matthew 24:33-35, you understand what generation he was talking about. The end of that age was closed out. Satan was cast down (Luke 10:18). It all centered around the temple (Matthew 24:2). Rome invaded Israel in 63. There was a truce until 66, and the temple was destroyed in 70. There is your seven years. This was about the end of an age, not the world. We transitioned directly into the time of the gentiles. That generation saw the fulfillment of prophesy for that age. There was a war against the holy ones and they were overcome. We are not living in that story. Jesus was talking to those people, disciples and the crowd. Why would he talk to us through them? Everything has happened thru Revelation 13:11. That is where the church age picked up. The definition and use of generation is defined by the elements of the story. The elements of the story support my interpretation.

        • Salt + Light

          Oh my, twr! Who told you these things? Their ecclesiology, and eschatology is very weak.

          Ask yourself, when and why did Jesus start teaching in parables?
          Yes, Jesus was speaking of John look at the last few vv. of John’s gospel.
          No. Jesus said “if”. But they didn’t.

          Amillennialism bears no fruit. Because they don’t have any trees left! That’s all.

          • twr

            Salt+Light,

            Christian eschatology is garbage. That is why you have so many opinions. It is speclation and for the most part deception. I only need one verse to prove it

            Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
            9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

            Because Christians are in denial about their own salvation, they can’t even apply the concept of effective communication. There is a speaker and a listener. Christians will eliminate the disciples and the crowd and insert themselves as the listener. Do you read any other book like that? Some of us may pick up that steamy novel and become that character, but we know it is fiction. I understand prophecy, but there is absolutely a need to identify the subject of any conversation. The subject of Mark 9:1 and Matthew 24:32-35 is not Christians. Jesus was talking to somebody and those people expected his word to come to pass. He said heaven and earth would pass away before his word. Jesus did not say whatever generation sees these signs be on watch. He said THIS generation. Your eschatology is mythology.

          • Salt + Light

            twr

            What is your interpretation of Mark 9:1? How about this…”Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee , I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shall see greater things than these. And He saith unto him, Verily, verily I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.” (John 1: 50 – 51)

            In all three of the synoptic gospels the apostles witnessed the “Transfiguration” (which is what the Lord Jesus gave us as His prelude to in Mark 9:1). The same is recorded in Matthew 16: 28 + Luke 9: 27. And the “Transfiguration” is then recorded in the three of them. But before I talk about that event, I’ll show you it being talked about in an epistle.

            “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1: 16, 17, 18)

            But it happened at another time before the transfiguration, recorded in all the gospels. I’ll mention two.

            “Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad Him saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered Him. And Jesus, when He was baptized, went straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3: 13 – 17)

            “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon Him. And I knew Him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.” (John 1: 32, 33, 34)

            The Transfiguration following Matthew 16: 28, also repeated in Mark 9:1 + Luke 9: 27

            “And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James and John his brother, and bringeth them unto a high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine like the sun, and His raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if it is good let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, be not afraid.

            Compare that to Revelation 1: 12 – 17…

            This generation – What generation? The End time generation.

            Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” (Matthew 24: 32 – 35)

            Now in order to understand you must look into the O.T.

            “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set His hand AGAIN the second time to recover the remnant of His people…” (Isaiah 11: 11)

            The first time the people were dispersed was to Babylon. The dispersions took place from 612 BC to 586 B. C. Jeremiah, the prophet said they would be allowed to come back the first time 70 years later. Which they did return from the first dispersion found in the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah.

            Another mention of the second return is spoken of also in Zechariah, chapter 10: 8, 9, + 10. ” The Restoration of God’s People.”

            The second dispersion was 70 A.D. The second return was 1948. The ‘fig tree’ is always Israel in the Bible. Which is why Jesus said: “When you see the fig trees branch yet ‘tender’ as being young or new is because after 70 A.D. the land of Israel became a rocky desert. It blossomed again with Israel restored by God’s people the second time.

            These are just a few of the answers in God’s Word, His Word which will never be destroyed according to Matt. 24: 35.

            Hope this might help,

            Be blessed in the richness of His Word!

      • Actually, there is no need to. Even if all of your points were certain, which is far from my understanding of the relevant scriptures, even then it still seems much more likey that all of these events will take place mid-trib.
        The general tribulation is already well under way. However, you are partly correct in that what is called The Great Tribulation, or Terrible day of The Lord, does refer to the later events just preceeding the Second Coming.There will at some time be a 7 year treaty agreed between Israel and her enemies; which treaty will begin the Great tribulation time. Then The Anti-Christ will break that treaty by attacking Israel. Soon after that Jesus comes again.

        • Dan

          No, No sorry(laugh)! You need to give a source. If you don’t then you cannot play!

        • Edwitness

          Neavei,
          Can you give me a scripture in the New Testament that speaks of a 7 year tribulation?
          Blessings:-}

        • Ron

          The Start of the Tribulation which is 7 Years long starts with The AC confirming the Treaty of

          Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the “midst” of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

          The midst is the 3 1/2 year point where the AC will set up his image/idol in a wing of the Temple and will sit

          on the mercy seat of the ark claiming to be God.

          God Bless!

          • twr

            That is exactly what happened in 63 A.D. The truce was broken at the midpoint of 66, starting the Israelite rebellion against Rome. The temple was destroyed in 70.

            Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
            9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

            All of these things have already happened except the final judgment.

          • Phil

            twr,

            “Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
            9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.”

            John was no doubt standing nearby when Jesus said this. John definitely saw it, and recorded what he saw in Revelation 19:

            11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war…….

          • twr

            Ron,

            BTW Israelites are not Christians or Jews. Those are religions. Christians existed long before the Messiah ever set foot on the earth. The first Christians and the majority today still unwittingly follow him. His name was Serapis. He was a sun god. He is the reason you worship on Sunday instead of keeping the Sabbath. The Messiah told his disciples that many would be deceived into worshipping Serapis.

            Matthew 24:4-5King James Version (KJV)

            4 And Jesus answered and said unto them (disciples, not us), Take heed that no man deceive you.

            5 For many shall come in my name (claiming to be my representative), saying, (that) I am (the) Christ; and (they) shall deceive many.

            Satan always has a counterfeit. I am an Israelite and a believer. I don’t claim a Christ or Christianity. The difference is how you serve, not who you think you serve.

            SERAPIS CHRIST

          • Ron

            twr sell it somewhere else, you are wasting your posts because I don’t read what you say.

            Twr May The Lord give you Judgment that is deserving of your very deception and mistruths used in your false doctrine.

            besides what does twr stand for anyway? “toilet water receptacle” that might explain what you say.

            jimmy didn’t have anything happen as you might smugly think, I believe he is a pastor and has more important

            things to deal with. You’re the one who needs to be careful, and remember

            Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

            If you don’t repent, you’re going down! (literally!)

          • Emery

            twr;
            Explain how Christians could have existed before the Christ taught it to his apostles and disciples please. No, before Jesus taught Christianity, the Law Covenant was in place. THAT WAS IT. Anything else that existed was pagan. Jesus REPLACED the law covenant with the New Covenant forming the “Christian Congregation” on Nisan 14 of 33 c.e. That is when Christianity began, and that is when the Law Covenant ENDED.

    • Ron

      Like Geoffrey said where is ALL your supporting Scripture that refutes what he posted.

      More like “yours will be another gross misinterpretation of scripture to make it support your erroneous belief of anything

      but a pre-trib Rapture”.

      Quoting you “I pray that God opens your heart and mind to this truth because I believe only the Holy Spirit can reveal it.”

      Geoffrey I know has God’s Holy Spirit for my Spirit bears witness and so does a whole host of others of His.

      There are many Spirit’s These Days passing themselves off as The Holy Spirit you can see all these churches with demons

      moving among the congregation and the people are told it is the Holy Spirit and it is demons.

      If I could be in the physical presence of many on this board who claim to know God I could prove them to be what they are

      False Prophets

      How so???????

      1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:

      because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:

      Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

      **And every spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is NOT of God:

      and this is that spirit of antichrist,

      whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

      I can confess to Anyone word for word stating the above Scripture First….

      I CONFESS JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH

      False Prophets CANNOT UTTER THIS CONFESSION.

      GOD SAID IT AND THAT SETTLES IT AND I HAVE USED THIS SCRIPTURE HIGHLY EFFECTIVELY AGAINST THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE TRUE

      DOCTRINE AND ARE UNSAVED.

      You are either for Jesus Christ ( You have His Holy Spirit ) or are against Him ( you DO NOT HAVE His Holy Spirit )

      There is no middle of the road and no one can make any claim of such.

      Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

  • Phil

    As supporting verses for point #2, I’ve collected the following which mention who will be with Him when He returns:

    Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

    Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

    1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

    1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Jude:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    =====

    Also, it is interesting to notice that in the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25, the bride is not mentioned. I think that is because she is already in the house when He comes.

    • Amen, brother! The Church is NONE of the Ten Virgins, we are a virgin, the Bride!

      • jim black

        GG: Amen, brother! The Church is NONE of the Ten Virgins, we are a virgin, the Bride!

        JB: Then who do they represent?

        2 Corinthians 11:2-4

        2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a CHASTE VIRGIN to Christ. 3 BUT I FEAR, lest somehow, as the serpent DECEIVED Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches ANOTHER Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—YOU MAY WELL PUT UP WITH IT.”

        LIKE PRETRIBULATIONISM!!!!!!!!!!

        Time to repent of this deception called pretribulationism:)

        • Emery

          Jim;
          The Bride of the Christ is representative of the 144,000.

          • Jimmy

            Really?? Then what tribe do you come from??

          • Emery

            Tribe Jimmy? What tribes are you talking about?

          • The Bible says that the 144,000 all come from the 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL….so Jimmy wants to know what tribe YOU are from since you count yourself among the 144,000

          • Emery

            Or rather, what tremendous misunderstanding of God’s word causes you to ask such a bizarre question Jimmy?

          • Southern Belle

            What tremendous misunderstanding of Revelation 7:1-8 causes YOU to say such bizarre things, hmmmmmm?

          • Emery

            Geoffrey;
            No, I never once said I was one of the 144,000, and the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes is representative of all from all nations and tribes and tongues. It does not LITERALLY mean just from the 12 tribes. Why do you read things into my posts, that I didn’t say? I mean what I say, and I don’t mean anything more, or anything less than what I post. There is no “between the lines” with my posts. So show me where I said I was one of the annointed. You can’t because I didn’t say it. Your beliefs about God’s witnesses are flawed. The information you THINK you know about them is all heresay. Second and third hand, and doesn’t come from the source, it comes from those who seek to destroy them. So how can you expect any of that information to be accurate? Thinking it IS accurate is not logical or intelligent, or wise.

          • Yes, it DOES mean 12,000 from EACH of the 12 tribes of Israel. It is not some general listing or grouping of people….and ALL of the 144,000 are male, virgin, JEWS from Israel. Thats why NONE of your JW buddies can be part of the 144,000.

            “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” Revelation 7:4 (KJV)

          • rwt

            Emery,

            You right about paganism and the RCC. The mother of harlots has a daughter. Every Christian holiday has pagan roots. Many of those holidays God has expressly forbidden us from observing (Jeremiah 10:2-4). It is a historical fact that Christianity existed long before Christ. I posted the clip of Serapis. By combining the origin, story and doctrine of Serapis with the true Messiah, Rome was able to give breath to the image of the wild beast. That is why we observe pagan holidays and worship on Sun-day instead of keeping the Sabbath. That is why Jesus has the sun gods birthday of December 25th. That is why we observe Easter (Ishtar, Semiramus, Tammuz). That is why we have a picture of Ceasar Borgia as Christ. Israelites could not make graven images.

          • Emery

            Geoffrey;
            That would be impossible. God’s word says all of the 144,000 will be kings and priests and co-heirs with the Christ. And it says in Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” So which scripture is false and which one is true? Even your KJV almost says it accurately: 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

            10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

            The ancient texts we have don’t say on Earth, they say in heaven. But BOTH Bibles say every kindred or nation, tongue, people, etc. So if it’s ONLY virgin males from Israel, which one is wrong? Where did God screw up in His inspiring it’s writing? Absolutely NO contradictions exist in God’s word, and ALL scriptures are in complete harmony with ALL OTHER scriptures. Only in faulty translations can one find problems like contradictions. Since God’s scriptures are all in harmony, then where it says 12,000 virgin males from the 12 tribes MUST be metaphorical. It MUST be figurative in order for that scripture to be harmonious with Revelation 5:9-10. I’ve spent OVER 45 years comparing scripture to scripture Geoffrey. Believe me when I tell you it’s not literally male virgins from the 12 tribes of Israel as you think of it. I don’t think you’ve been out of your teens for anywhere close to 45 years, so you couldn’t have scritinized God’s word for that long, and you certainly couldn’t have taken courses in translating ancient scriptural texts in the 1970’s so you could continue to do so today. I’ve been at it much longer than you, and I know what it says. I’ve studied 36 English translations of the Bible, and I’ve studied more than 36 so called Christian religions over the past 4 and a half decades. I’ve studied WITH them. I’ve compared them to each other, and with the scriptures. I have no reason not to tell you the truth either. I have every reason TO tell the truth. That’s what I do. If you HONESTLY wanted to know the truth, and to draw close to God, and to benefit from His promises, you’d start looking into this for yourself.

          • The people in Revelation 5 are the current Christian Church after the Rapture….the Tribulation doesn’t even start until Chapter 6. How can the 144,000 be in Heaven in chapter 5 when they weren’t even chosen yet? Hmm…

            Perhaps you have a little more studying to do.

        • Emery

          Geoffrey;
          What you call a “rapture” is not a rapture. It is God bringing the still alive remnant of the 144,000 to heaven just before the final battle to FIGHT it with Jesus. They co-rule Earth from heaven. They actually co-rule the entire Kingdom with Jesus from heaven. They have been chosen for a long time. The apostles were the first of them. All who were “annointed with holy spirit” are the ones who are chosen. God probably now has already chosen the last of them. Most were sleeping in death, and have been resurrected as spirit persons to heaven already. The balance still alive being taken to heaven before the final battle is what you call the rapture, but it’s NOT a rapture. It’s ONLY the 144,000 who go to heaven, ever. The entire NT is written by members of the 144,000, and is ADDRESSED to them, to the congregations of them. They are spiritual Israel. They are the human half of the New Covenant. They are the ONLY ONES who are baptized with the holy spirit. They are the little flock, and those who work with and who associated with them when they were alive on Earth are the “great crowd”. This is what God’s word teaches Geoffrey. Religions have so skewed and screw this up that it’s no wonder no one really knows. If the KJV Bible was not changed when it was created by King James the First to match the beliefs of the Church of England, that Bible might be a little clearer. When he had it created, he did not care what God taught, he only cared what his church taught. It basically reflects the beliefs of the Church of England. He was a shmuck.

      • tommy

        Hey Geof
        Rev.19 says nothing about a virgin!!!. Wife indicates she’s been married before,,perhaps Israel !!!.
        1.Israel became the wife of God under the old covenant (Jer. 2:1-2)
        2.She constantly committed spiritual adultery against Him with her idolatry (Jer. 3; Ezek. 16)
        3.After much longsuffering He gave her a bill of divorcement (Isa. 50:1; Jer. 3:8)
        4.He promised to betroth her again as a virgin bride (Isa. 54:6-8; 62:1-5; Hos. 2:14-23)
        5.Christ presented Himself to Israel as a Bridegroom but He was rejected by her (Jn. 1:31; 3:29)
        6.When He comes again she will receive Him and be His bride and wife (Rev. 19:7-11)

        Wife makes herself ready, works salvation!!!. Paul says different Col 2:10 And ye are COMPLETE in him,,,

        By the way Geof, want to know who comes back with Christ at his second coming?? The scriptures tell you.
        Mat 25:31
        When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
        Mar 8:38
        Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
        Luk 9:26
        For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.
        Rev 14:10
        The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:. It don’t say church or saints!!!!
        Let the scriptures interpret themselves and quit reading into them what is not there..

        • Oh, really? And who ELSE is with those angels? Why it’s the Church. Imagine that. “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,” Jude 1:14 (KJV)

          • Tommy

            OH REALLY? Enoch knew nothing of the Body of Christ, you should know that Geoff, it wasn’t revealed until Paul.There are good reasons for believing that those who are here mentioned as coming with the Lord are ANGELS, not men! The word that is translated saints is “hagios” which means simply “holy”, or in this case, “holy [ones].” The expression “ten thousands of saints” (used in Jude 14) also appears in Deuteronomy 33:2 in a passage which is generally regarded as referring to angels. AGAIN Let the scriptures interpret themselves and quit reading into them what is not there..

          • Phil

            Tommy,

            “There are good reasons for believing that those who are here mentioned as coming with the Lord are ANGELS, not men!”

            There are good reasons for not believing that.

            1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

            You got any particular verses that speak of angels sleeping in Jesus?

          • Ron

            So very true Geoffrey and here he goes adjusting his doctrine to say Saints are Angels.

            Funny How in all of Revelation the Angels called to execute The Lord’s Tasks are called “Angels”

            “Not Saints.”

            Blessings Brother Geoffrey!

          • Tommy

            Phil
            You got any particular verses that speak of angels sleeping in Jesus?

            Did you know we are talking about the second coming not the Rapture???
            Pay attention Phil.

          • Tommy

            Ron
            So very true Geoffrey and here he goes adjusting his doctrine to say Saints are Angels.

            You need to do some serious word study Ron, unless you just already know it all !!!

          • Ron

            Tommy as Geoffrey said too “And who ELSE is with those angels?”

            It is The Bride of Christ. The angels will go out and gather all that offends, Christ wouldn’t dream of staining

            His Bride with that task.

            And in response to your claim “You need to do some serious word study Ron,” really I back just about everything

            on here with Scripture and that is the Truth, and how would you know if I need that at all?

            and you other claim “unless you just already know it all !!!” I don’t that is why I asked about a simple verse in

            Revelation because it has stumped me for some time. But I do know what The Holy Spirit has taught me, so I share

            it.

            What is that saying that whatever you accuse another of you yourself are Guilty of it frequently and usually?

            Remember this is Geoffrey’s site “NOT YOURS” and do you think he is not going to ( or for that matter alot of

            others ) let you go unchallenged in doctrine he knows to be false? I am up here, as well as you, as Geoffrey sees

            fit not because you or I have some right to post here.

          • Tommy

            Ron, you said

            Tommy as Geoffrey said too “And who ELSE is with those angels?”
            It is The Bride of Christ.

            I already posted with scripture who I think the Bride is.

            Rev.19 says nothing about a virgin!!!. Wife indicates she’s been married before,,,
            1.Israel became the wife of God under the old covenant (Jer. 2:1-2)
            2.She constantly committed spiritual adultery against Him with her idolatry (Jer. 3; Ezek. 16)
            3.After much longsuffering He gave her a bill of divorcement (Isa. 50:1; Jer. 3:8)
            4.He promised to betroth her again as a virgin bride (Isa. 54:6-8; 62:1-5; Hos. 2:14-23)
            5.Christ presented Himself to Israel as a Bridegroom but He was rejected by her (Jn. 1:31; 3:29)
            6.When He comes again she will receive Him and be His bride and wife (Rev. 19:7-11)

            Wife makes herself ready, works salvation!!!. Paul says different Col 2:10 And ye are COMPLETE in him,,,

            Even Paul stated who comes back with the Lord.
            2Thes.2:6,7
            Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
            And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his MIGHTY ANGELS.
            Paul didn’t say he would be coming back with the Lord Jesus or the Thessalonians or the Church for that matter. I wonder why?

            Paul does use the husband/wife relationship in Ephesians 5 to illustrate how husbands should love their wives, but it does not say that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of the Lamb. It simply says that Christ loved the church as His own body and gave Himself for it and that husbands should do the same for their wives.

            Romans 7 uses an illustration that says if a husband is dead, the wife is free to remarry. Even so we (the Body) are DEAD to the Law to be married to Christ.

            “ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another”

            That is clearly figurative because it says “married to ANOTHER”. To take the passage to mean that the Body is the Bride of the Lamb would also mean that we were once the Bride of the Law.

            Then 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 states that we should be as a “chaste virgin”, but again this is clearly a figure. “I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”. It says “AS” a chaste virgin, which is figurative. It is a figure of purity, as Paul goes on to say “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

            I am well aware this is Geoffrey’s site, but just like him, if I think he is wrong i am not going to let him go unchallenged.

        • Edwitness

          Tommy,
          The plain reading of the scripture says “saints”. You are the one who is “reading into them what is not there”.

          • Ron

            They never read past any Scripture and if they do they ignore what is there Edwitness to promote their

            False Doctrines.

            God Bless You Edwitness!

          • Tommy

            ED
            The plain reading of the scripture says “saints”.

            Why is it the Apostle John never used the word saints in Rev. 19 to describe this army?? Did he make a mistake??
            Did the apostle Paul ever say the church would be coming back with The Lord on white horses to do battle ?? Surely Paul would have mentioned something this important about the Church, since he covers practically everything else, don’t you think!! You guys believe this is the Bride, so now you’re telling me The Lord is taking his Bride to a blood bath war,what kind of a husband would do that?? Come on Ed.

          • Ron

            Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

            Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD

            will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their

            flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and

            their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall

            consume away in their mouth.

            The Bride isn’t fighting the battle and The Lord is likely still riding in on Armeggedon when he states the

            above, and the battle is over in an instant. The Lord sets down on the mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

            And why wouldn’t The Lord want His Bride to see The destruction of those who have persecuted those who

            Love The Lord Jesus Christ, this group have been lopping off the heads of Trib Saints and have persecuted

            Christ’s Bride before the Trib. The Valley of Meggido (Armeggedon) is the dinner location for all the birds of

            prey prepared for them by The Lord.

            Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white:

            for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

            Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,

            white and clean.

          • Tommy,
            You asked “You guys believe this is the Bride, so now you’re telling me The Lord is taking his Bride to a blood bath war,what kind of a husband would do that?? Come on Ed.”

            One who knows the end from the beginning, that’s who. The one who has made us immortal so that in this war we can not be harmed, that’s who. The “blood bath” is all on the other side.

            And the plain reading of the scripture still is “saints”. Jude 1:14

          • Ron

            I couldn’t respond to one of your newer comments because there was no reply option, so i’ll do it here first I want to ask you a question.

            Are edwitness with little “e” and Edwitness with the big “E” the same person? ( I want to make sure, and I think they are based on

            Their words)

            Lastly God Bless You my Brother in Jesus Christ for Shining The Light of God’s Word on The False Prophets on NTEB and exposing

            their Falsehoods! Soon we shall depart and they will be forced to swallow and feel the bitterness of their own words that left them here.

            God Bless You Edwitness

        • Tommy,
          That does not change the fact that the plain reading of the verse says “saints”.

  • Jackie
  • bETROTHEDtOhIM

    1 Thessalonians 5: 9-11: For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

    What comfort would there be in knowing your groom was going to take his anger out on you just prior to your wedding?

    To John33: You say “I mean who cares…” Wow! I care! I can’t imagine a bride that doesn’t seem to care about her marriage or when it might take place. I guess if you think the groom is going to drag you through the mud for seven years before you get married, you probably wouldn’t care…..

    • Phil

      Good point.

      “For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church” Ephesians 5:29

    • John33

      Well if you wanna be of those that think they all going to have a permission to bail out before everything happens its selfish. And the who cares is meant the way of you cant say when just be vigilent ok. Can you just understand how selfish this sounds. But you know stay sittif behind your computer untill he comes fine for me but not understandig that this is a selfish act is even worse! And yes being dragged to the mud for seven years he thats the least i can do for our father who scrificed his son. Dont take the gospel as a sweet candy store all figures in the bible suffered for the sake of God! Thats why i said i think most of youll qill be suprised facing God!

      • Salt + Light

        John,

        The Church, which is the “Body of Christ” and “The Bride of Christ” has already been suffering many trials and tribulations (NOT Jacob’s Trouble) for two thousand years. What is this selfishness you bring up?

        God has set forth a reason for Jacob’s seven year tribulation, and it’s not for the Body of Christ to go through.

        If you cannot accept Geoffrey’s teaching on this, I would go back and study it further if I were you; instead of silly name calling. Where does that get you?

        And because you don’t understand, and not even try to, you just won’t. But the Holy Spirit can come to you if you sincerely ask and open your eyes. Then you will know what is true and be able to rightly divide the Word of God.

        And let me say one more thing – No matter who or what, being judged at the Bema Seat or the Goat and Sheep, or the White throne judgement…We will all be surprised facing God!!!

        • Ron

          Amen Salt + Light

          God Bless You!

  • David Douglass

    There is one more essential New Testament passage that needs to be included as a ‘key proof’ of a rapture event predating the second coming of Jesus as King to rule 1000 years on earth as a Jewish physical Creator and sinless man.

    Acts 1:9-11 — “And when he (Jesus) had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    Acts 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up (further clarification of verse 9), behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

    Acts 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Jesus was still visible as the two angels of God provided comforting information of Jesus’ return for the new believing assembly which Jesus had started after his resurrection. Jesus will come ‘in like manner as you NOW see him going” is the exact definition from the Greek rendering of this English translation.
    .
    There is no way this prophetic information is the second coming of Jesus to rule as King of Kings. A totally different description of a ‘cloud, in the air, return we call the ‘rapture, is completely different from setting foot on the mountain top in Israel in a time of war.

    The key here is ‘when the angels spoke, which was as Jesus was entering the clouds. Jesus was not on earth, and not completely out of sight, but at the altitude of visible cloud level.

    • DC

      Excellent, DD!

    • Amen David Douglas. AMEN!
      Blessings:-}

  • Dan

    The most important Yes even more important than knowing when the rapture occurs is your knowledge and belief in the

    Gospel!

    Maranatha!

  • There is a rapture but it is really Post Trib, occuring during the Great White Throne Judgment that happens when the Earth ends AFTER the Great Tribulation, AFTER the 1000 year Reign of Christ on Earth and AFTER the Gog-Magog wars. The earth ends when our sun like any other star in the universe approaches the end of its life, swells up becoming a red giant and makes the earth uninhabitable. This is the lake of fire talked about in the scripture below.

    2 Peter 3:10-13 “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and Godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed his coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promises we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of the righteous.”

    This scripture talks about how all of the dead are resurrected to face this final judgement and what happens to those whose names are not in the book of life.

    Rev 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and him (Jesus) who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence (as well as from the sun’s heat), and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. ( left to burn in the dying sun’s heat) The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    The following scripture says what happens to those whose names are found in the book of life.

    Rev 21:1-4 “ Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

    The rest of Revelation Chapter 21 goes on to describe the new Jerusalem which has to be a super-natural spiritual city (ie heaven) because anything physical will be vaporized by the dying sun’s heat

    If you read the most famous “rapture” scripture below after reading about the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20 and 21 it is easy to see that is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment and not some imaginary rapture thousands of years earlier before or immediately after the Great Tribulation period.

    1 Thess 4:15-17 “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord (with the New Jerusalem at the end of the earth), will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first (to be judged according to Rev 20:11-15). After that, we who are still alive and are LEFT (name written in the book of life) will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And we will be with the Lord forever. (according to Revelation chapter 21)

    The Great White Throne judgment is also referred to in the following scriptures. Again when you put all of the pieces of the puzzle together you get the complete picture of the Great White Throne Judgment that each scripture alone can’t provide.

    John 5:28:29 “Do not be amazed by this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

    1 Cor 15: 51-53 “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”

    Matt 25:31-46. “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats…..”

  • DC

    Looking forward to the Rapture doesn’t mean we don’t care about those left behind or that we are selfish, thinking “I got mine; too bad for you.” But the Gospel is there to all who would read it. If you reject the Truth of Christ’s death and resurrection, it’s on your own head. When the rich man in hell asked if someone (Lazarus, I think) would go back and tell his brothers before it was too late for them, he got that answer that his brothers had the words of Moses and the prophets, and if they didn’t believe that, no one could convince them. It’s the same for the times we are in. There are so many signs that we are in the end times, that people have to be deliberately denying Christ not to get saved now before it’s too late.

    We’ve had this argument about when the Rapture happens so many times that I’m not even going to get into it with an individual. Feel free to believe what you want to believe, but give me the same courtesy of believing in a pre-Tribulation Rapture. I know that Christ loves His Bride and is not going to punish her before the Marriage Supper. For goodness’ sake, why would He? Those that think we have to suffer must have a faith that’s based on works. You might want to look into self-flagellation just so you can THINK you can earn your salvation through suffering. (I keep seeing the albino man in The DaVinci Code.) Yes, Christians have been persecuted since the beginning, but that was because of fallen men. God’s wrath will not pour out on the ones Jesus came to save. Why would He die for us if we had to suffer in the end any way?

  • I was not pre-trib until about 5 months ago, since I figured the televangelists could not possibly have it right. Now, the NAR, and most of our apostate “christian” culture(including the likes of Jim Baker, Bethel, etc.) mocks the pre-trib rapture, yet I see allusions to it in many unexpected places. Isaiah 26 is a perfect example. The context of the chapters before, during and after chapter 26 is the same as Revelation, and then…it says this:

    20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
    21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    So let it be written…so let it be done.

    • Dan

      Amen, Brother! Why Why Why! Is Jim Baker trying to teach us anything? God Bless Jim Baker but he should be in the

      background helping.

      Jim Baker is not beyond reproach and I’m talking about a leader. Help Jim realize we love him but we need u n the back.

      • Dan – believe it or not, my ex-stepdad was his PR director in the 70’s…and I was on the PTL swim team. :() Pretty jak’d! Dude loved $$$$ then, and dude loves $$$$$$$$$$ now.

        • Dan

          Sola S, the likes of men and women like Baker; teach us in real time Jesus’ comments on the dangers of wealth.

          As for me, because I have so much anger towards people like this I have to remember I received my gift by

          the same grace despite my poor choices.

    • KENNEDY KELECHI

      TRY AND PREACH OTHERS OUT OF IT, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE OF THE SAME VIEW.
      THE LORD HAS SAID, HE IS COMING TO RAPTURE HIS SAINT, NOT SOON ANYMORE, BUT HE IS COMING IMMEDIATELY.

      TELL THEM, WITHOUT HOLINESS, NO EYE SHALL SEE ME.(3X) (HEBREW 12:14)

  • top

    They have been refuted before so I will refrain and read what others say. You should receive many differences of opinion. God bless all.

  • guest

    Another thing to consider… The Church at Thessalonica is upset in 2nd Thessalonians because they mistakenly believe they were going through the Tribulation period. Why on earth would the church at Thessalonica be upset about such a thing unless they had been taught previously that they weren’t supposed to go through the Day of the Lord? Which is what they were taught!! 1st Thessalonians 5:9 clearly teaches we are not appointed to wrath. If Paul was teaching that the Church was destined to go through the Tribulation, then the Church at Thessalonian had no justification to be upset.

    • DC

      Wow, guest! That is such a simple but excellent point! Makes so much sense! I learn so much from my online church. Thanks so much!

      • dan

        Preach DC ! tell us the Point guest was making ! Tell us brother!

    • Tommy

      What are you talking about? The Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ are not the same.

  • Dan Quixote

    Raised in a Pentecostal Assemblies of God church, we were taught a pre-trib eschatology during some of the Sunday night services, including an imminent Rapture and Second Coming. We went to church 3x/week back then, imagine that. 3x minimum, plus outreach activities, church work days, potlucks, missionaries in town, rehearsals, etc. How far we’ve departed from that. But I digress. We were also taught eternal security (once-saved-always-saved).

    As an adult, reading the Bible cover-to-cover a few times, the Word itself convinced me otherwise on both counts. It talked me out of a number of things I was taught or thought, and gave me bigger, better things. As many who study, including those in this forum, I keep files of evidences for one side and the other on a number of these disputed points. I want to go where the preponderance of evidence leads, wherever that is, even if its not my carnal preference. For example, my carnal preference is not to obey Jesus when He said “Give to whoever asks of you, and don’t ask for it back”. THAT sure took some heaving of the will to get on board with.

    Anyway, even though I’m presently persuaded of a mid-trib Rapture and Second Coming, I’m appreciate the presentation of prooftexts for the pre-Trib view. I’m studying them today, to see where to put them in the Big Ol’ Word document where I try to weigh these things. Who knows, I could become pursuaded back. Balaam got schooled by a donkey.

    Apart from the Word, there’s some human reasoning in my calculations. Specifically, Pascal’s Wager. It’s one of the logical constructs that has me clinging to Jesus. As a Christian I can afford to be wrong if it somehow inexplicably turns out there’s no God and no afterlife after I die, but I CANNOT afford to be wrong in being a God-rejecting atheist if it turns out there’s a Righteous Judge who will assign me a place in His household or in eternal flames based on my relationship with His Son. Similarly, it’s no problem to have physically and spiritually prepared for a really rough slog through the first half of the Tribulation, maybe even all of it, only to find out it wasn’t necessary, and others get my family’s stuff after we’re caught up. On the other hand, I don’t want to bank on a pre-Trib Rapture and be wrong about that, facing the Tribulation without provisions, survival skills, or mental-spiritual preparations. Either way, I’m trying to be as faithful as possible when the Master returns from his journey; like most everyone else here, I want to be found being about our Father’s business when He returns.

    Maranatha, come soon, Lord.

    • Phil

      You’re a thoughtful student Dan. I enjoyed reading what you have to say.

    • If your study of the Bible has led you away from precious Bible doctrine truths like Eternal Security and the Pretrib Rapture, then it is not the Holy Spirit of God which has guided you. Rather, you have been seduced by a LYING SPIRIT who has stolen your BLESSED HOPE.

      “And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.” 1 Kings 22:22 (KJV)

      • twr

        There is no eternal security. The bible explains who Christ came to save, who he died for and why.

        Matthew 18:11King James Version (KJV) For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
        Matthew 20:28King James Version (KJV) Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
        Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the TRANSGRESSIONS that were under the FIRST TESTAMENT, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
        2 Corinthians 5:10King James Version (KJV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
        Nobodies sins are forgiven. That is a myth. Rightly divide.

      • Dan Quixote

        Hi Mr. Grider –

        Please be heartened that this Bible Study article persuaded me at least somewhat of your assertions – in particular, after studying the references herein in their larger contexts, and checking my personal notes on the subject, it seems clearer that Jesus coming back with Michael the archangel and his angels and his resurrected saints will most likely happen after the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. Regarding the doctrine of eternal security, these references are my obstacles to believing in it, and have me trying to work out my salvation with “fear and trembling” –

        Numbers 15:30-31 – My willful sin as one who has been in the Assembly gets me tossed from the Assembly
        Luke 12:8-9 – If I pull a Peter, and don’t get a good reconciliation in time, I get myself kicked out of Heaven before I’ve even gotten there.
        Luke 19:24,26 – if I don’t work to spread the Gospel (my mina) it will be taken away
        Romans 11:21-22 – I who have been grafted into the vine can be cut off from it if I don’t continue in His goodness
        1 Corinthians 15:2 – I have another conditional statement (“IF”) about my salvation to contend with
        Colossians 1:22-23 – the conditional statement “…IF ye continue in the faith…”
        Colossians 2:18 – I can become disqualified of the prize of salvation (“beguiled of my reward” in the KJV)
        1 Thessalonians 3:5 – Paul seems worried his little new church was going to be led astray into becoming unsaved
        1 Timothy 3:6 – If I’m a recent convert promoted to deacon, I can still end up suffering the same fate as the devil
        2 Peter 2:20-21 – If I’m saved but then become a false prophet, Hell for me will be worse than if I hadn’t been saved to begin with.
        1 John 3:5-6,9-10 – no one who lives in him keeps on sinning
        Revelation 2:11 – If I “overcometh” [am faithful during persecution, even to the point of death] I shall not be hurt of the second death [which is the lake of fire; Hell]; but if I’m not, I won’t be

        there’s more, but my laptop battery is about to die…

        • All sin we do is willful, none of it is by accident. When you got saved, ALL of your sin – past present and future – were forgiven. You can never lose salvation because you were sealed when you got saved.

          “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)

          What you can lose is your inheritance at the Judgement Seat of Christ, your crowns, but not your salvation.

          “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (KJV)

          We do not work to GET saved, and we do not work to STAY saved.

          “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5 (KJV)

          Hope that helps 🙂

    • Dan

      Dan, does it matter if the church is raptured? If we(thechurch) go through the tribulation are we still ok?

    • Edwitness

      Dan Q.,
      I think the reason you see the rapture as mid trib is because you think it is a 7 year period. You are actually seeing the whole trib when you read of the 1260 days, 42 months, and time, times, and 1/2 a time in the New Testament. Unless you know of a scripture that says it is 7 years in the New Testament?

      Blessings:-}

      • Dan Quixote

        Hi Edwitness –

        I get the 7 years from Daniel on the OT, and in the NT from how the trumpets and seals map to Daniel / Matthew / Revelation. My biggest wonderment on this most recent and slowest munching through the Word has been how the whole NT was written in the OT, and how they illuminate each other. It’s like at the end of C.S. Lewis last Narnia book – “Further up and further in!” as the true Narnia was always bigger and more wonderful the further toward the center you went. Anyway, on this topic I spent a whole bunch of time over the course of months lining it all up in parallel vertical timelines in a spreadsheet, and overlaying the harmony narratives in a word processes, to see if it still made sense or needed adjustment. I suppose I could provide the files if an email address were provided. Much later I came across someone else who had done all the same work, could’ve saved myself a bunch of effort if I found him first – it was like looking in a mirror – a fellow applied sciences guy had come to nearly all the same understandings – http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/mycommentaries.html.

      • Dan Quixote

        Edwitness – Maybe I should re-state my semantics – I’m a little careless when speaking of the final 7 years – Daniel’s 70th week of years. I shouldn’t say I believe in a mid-trib rapture; I should say post-trib. The way I understand the scriptures is the first half of the last seven is is properly the Tribulation, which I like to call The Wrath of Satan, and the second half of the last 7 years is the Wrath of God. The believers and/or Israel may have to endure those first half; so many instances of persecution unto death suffixed with “this will require patient endurance by the saints”, and we see those in white robes who lost their lives for the faith during the tribulation for not worshiping the beast nor taking his mark. So just to say I agree with your point.

  • Edwitness

    He comes for those who love His appearing! 2 Tim.4:8
    Blessings:-}

  • Emery

    Not ONE of the quoted scriptures in this article say ANYTHING about a non-existent “rapture” or church. One must PRETEND it says those things in order to support the PRETEND rapture and the PRETEND church. In the original texts, the word that translates into “church” appears exactly ZERO times.

    • Yes, I am well aware that your JW training has left you incapable of understanding Bible doctrine. This must all sound so strange to you.

      • Emery

        JW TRAINING? NO Geoffrey, college. I STUDIED ancient Hebrew and ancient Koine Greek translation into English. I’ve TRANSLATED the words that the KJV CLAIMS falsely to be “church”. It means people or congregation, depending on the context. NOT CHURCH. And what you call JW training Geoffrey, doesn’t exist. JW’s STUDY THE WORD OF GOD and NOTHING ELSE. Are you attempting to indicate that YOU sit in a Kingdom hall and study twice a week? IMPOSSIBLE. You speak from heresay information from liars, NOT FROM FIRST HAND INFORMATION. BE HONEST and GO TO THEM and ask your questions. Don’t rely on liars. You know NOTHING first hand about God’s witnesses, and probably never will. What you do is DISHONEST in the first degree. Your beliefs about the ONLY people on Earth who do God’s will come from others. No court would accept that heresay testimony. IT’S UNACCEPTABLE from a legal point of view. Stop posting lies please.

        • Dan

          Geoff , I’m sorry for using so much space but I’m trying to make a point.

          Emery,

          As a Jehovah’s Witness, you have been taught from the Bible and the Watchtower organization. You’ve attended numerous meetings and are convinced that what you believe is the truth. You also believe the Trinity is a demonic doctrine and that Christendom is an apostate group preaching a false gospel. Additionally, you are taught the Watchtower organization is the true channel of God’s revelation to His church on earth. You are taught that you are in “The Truth,” but believing it does not make it so. I am sure you agree with this and respond by saying that your beliefs are in agreement with the Bible. After all, you study it deeply and often and have validated your beliefs with the Word of God. I don’t deny that you study, but when you study, you study under the Watchtower’s guidance and allow it to shape your understanding and thinking of the Bible and its doctrines.

          Please consider these quotes from the Watchtower Magazine that verify what I am saying:

          “All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.”1
          “Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible.”2
          In short, you are led by what the Watchtower says the Bible says, but if the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is from God, then . . .

          Why has it made false prophecies?
          Why has it altered the translation of the Bible?
          Why does the Watchtower say that you will fall into apostasy if you read the Bible without the Watchtower? See their quotes.
          Why are you not allowed to examine your own organization and its problems?
          Why does it tell you what to think and do?
          Have you checked the documentation from the Watchtower Magazine? How do you know that the Watchtower is correct? Because it says it is?

          Please don’t be offended by this, but when a group claims to be the prophet of God yet mistranslates the Bible, takes verses out of context, makes false prophecies, and misquotes authorities all to make its position valid, its credibility is lost. It cannot be from God.

          But you will never know that unless you “examine ALL things.” Unfortunately, as a Jehovah’s Witness, you are only encouraged to study what the Watchtower and Awake magazines tell you to study. That means you can’t really check up on its false prophecies on your own. Instead, you must trust what it tells you about its own false prophecies. In addition, you are instructed to not take any literature from “apostate Christendom.” This way, you will have far less opportunity to be challenged, something the Watchtower organization doesn’t want to happen.

          The Watchtower Magazine teaches by asking the questions and giving the answers. Sometimes it even uses a Bible reference (often out of context) to back up what it says. It all looks good and sounds good from your perspective, but it is a false method of study. The Watchtower organization tells you what to think and what to do. If you say that isn’t true and that the Watchtower Organization is God’s organization on earth, then you are simply repeating what the Watchtower tells you.

          The Bible alone is sufficient, but the Watchtower denies this:

          “From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude . . . They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago . . . “3

          What are the apostate doctrines: Trinity? Hell? Jesus is God? Funny thing is that, according to the Watchtower if you study the Bible by itself, you will come to believe these things! Could it be that apart from the selected questions, answers, Scripture quotes, and direction of the Watchtower teaching that the Bible actually does teach these “apostate doctrines”? If you don’t check for yourself and only believe the Watchtower, you’ll never know.

          Do you want to trust your eternal soul to the teachings of several men headquartered in Brooklyn, New York, who claim to be the directors of God’s organization on earth? Do you?

          Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

          • Emery

            Dan;
            What I know, I learned as a scriptural researcher beginning over 4 decades ago. I studied ancient language translation in college, such as ancient Hebrew, and ancient Koine Greek for the purpose, the college courses that is, of determining what God initially inspired to be written, versus the translations that MEN have created, and how they’ve changed God’s words to fit THEIR needs and desires. It was a great set of courses, and taught me a lot.

            As far as what I learned beginning 6 years ago as a witness for God and an ordained minister of God and a member of the society known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract society, formerly the International Bible Students Association, we study only the Bible. The society doesn’t “teach” anything. The Bible does. God does.

            My studies starting in 1975 taught me that no translation of God’s word was, then, and barely any now, reflect what God intended to have written down for our benefit. No religion I’ve studied with, and there are about three dozen of them, adhere to the scriptures or are Christian as the scriptures describe. In fact, God and His only begotten son, Jesus, both said repeatedly that religions, sects, are false religion. The only “true” one being what Jesus taught as “the one true faith”. No religion teaches that. No two religions of Christendom teach the same thing. All are different. All claim to be “the one”. All lie repeatedly and about everything. None that even attempt to teach God’s word, use an accurate translation of it, and they only teach SOME of that.

            As a witness for God, the same is true. All of them know what the Bible teaches, and it teaches the same things I learned as a researcher, and mentioned above.

            Yes, only through the faithful and discreet slave class can one ACCURATELY know God and His word. That class is the remnant still alive, of the 144,000 God chooses from all nations, to co-rule in heaven, with Jesus, over the Earth and the entire Kingdom of God, his Father.

            No false prophecies, only misunderstandings of certain things. Upon clearer understanding, these beliefs are adjusted to further reflect God’s inspired word.

            YOUR understanding of the “one true faith”, the 144,000, God’s witnesses, and the society to which they belong is completely and thoroughly incorrect. You gain your information from others, not from first hand personal research and discussions with them. Never have you gone to a Kinddom hall to seek accurate information. Never have you been to their web site to research. you always go to those who seek their destruction, and therefore lie persistently about them and God.

            You would make a TERRIBLE researcher. And an even worse journalist. And as a detective, you wouldn’t last a week. Your methods of gaining accurate information are all wrong. You rely only on heresay. Second hand, and third hand information, from only those who don’t know accurately what you want to know anyway. It may benefit you to work on that a bit.

          • Ron

            Isn’t it called “Circular Reasoning” Brother Dan?

            Total Truth You Have Spoken!

            God Bless You Dan!

        • Pete

          Emery, please tell me why you think God calls the 144,000 the “firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb” in Revelation 14:4.

          • Emery

            Already asked and answered Pete. No reason to repeat myself.

          • Dan

            @Emery , are you listening to yourself ? The statement below alone makes the hair on the back of my neck stand straight up.

            You actually make TWR more palatable. And, that’s a stretch !

            Yes, only through the faithful and discreet slave class can one ACCURATELY know God and His word. That class is the remnant still alive, of the 144,000 God chooses from all nations, to co-rule in heaven, with Jesus, over the Earth and the entire Kingdom of God, his Father.

          • Emery

            Pete;
            It isn’t a matter of me “thinking” that God calls the 144,000 the firstfruits, it’s a matter of Him having done it. He said it, I don’t THINK He said it. Why He said it may be what you’re actually asking, I don’t know for sure. But maybe the following will help you.
            There is a figurative, and a literal usage of the term “firstfruits”. Jesus Christ was spiritually begotten at the time of his baptism and was resurrected from the dead to life in the spirit on Nisan 16, 33 C.E., the day of the year on which the firstfruits of the first grain crop were presented before Jehovah at the sanctuary. He is, therefore, called the firstfruits, being actually the first firstfruits to God. (1Co 15:20, 23; 1Pe 3:18) The faithful followers of Jesus Christ, his spiritual brothers, are also a firstfruits to God, but not the primary firstfruits, being similar to the second grain crop, the wheat, which was presented to Jehovah on the day of Pentecost. They number 144,000 and are called the ones “bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” and “certain firstfruits of his creatures.”—Re 14:1-4; Jas 1:18.
            The apostle Paul also speaks of the faithful Jewish remnant who became the first Christians as being “firstfruits.” (Ro 11:16) The Christian Epaenetus is called “a firstfruits of Asia for Christ” (Ro 16:5), and the household of Stephanas “the firstfruits of Achaia.”—1Co 16:15.
            Since the anointed Christians are begotten by the spirit as sons of God with the hope of resurrection to immortality in the heavens, they are said during their lifetime on earth to “have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit . . . while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.” (Ro 8:23, 24) Paul says that he and fellow Christians with hopes of life in the spirit have “the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit,” which he also says is “a token in advance of our inheritance.”—2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13, 14. So they are resurrected as spirit beings directly to heaven as their inheritance, as adopted sons of God, just as the angels and Jesus are sons of God, although not adopted, but created.

          • Dan

            @Ron isn’t it funny when after giving them their own history, doctrine ,and rituals they instead make excuses for their history doctrine

            rituals rather than admitting what they are doing has no connection to Christianity.

        • Pete

          Emery, can you point me to where you answered? I don’t see it anywhere on here. Sorry.

        • Pete

          Emery, no need to get snippity. You know what I meant. //The apostle Paul also speaks of the faithful Jewish remnant who became the first Christians as being “firstfruits.” (Ro 11:16) //

          These are the 144,000. The first Christians. 144,000 is a representative number.

          • Emery

            Pete;
            I haven’t said one “snippity” thing on this blog yet. If you think I did, it was not intentional.

            Members of the 144,000 wrote the entire NT, and they addressed all the letters of it TO others of the 144,000 alive at the time., It’s addressed to all of them, and to their companions, the “great crowd”. The 144,000 are the only ones to be “born again of the spirit” and are the only ones, besides Jesus, to go to heaven. They are actually adopted by God, and they actually are to be kings and priests and judges and co-heirs of the Christ.

    • Jimmy

      There is NO ONE alive today that has ever seen or possessed the ORIGINAL TEXT. You have no clue what the ORIGINAL TEXT says.

      • Emery

        Jimmy;
        I said “ancient texts” and original texts. Few original texts of the SCRIPTURES exist, but MANY original COPIES from the first, second, third and other centuries DO EXIST. As well as all the other 5,000 texts from the period and after that are secular and personal and historical and governmental texts. The Vatican alone has MANY THOUSANDS that they won’t let ANYONE see, and many surely may be some of the original texts. Only they know, and they’re not talking. They do posess a couple thousand that they DO let people see and use. And those copies made electronically and photographycally are all over the globe. So Jimmy, your false claim that no one alive today has ever seen or posessed the original texts is absurd. Do you live in a place where there is no electricity, radio, tv, internet, or people? That’s the only way you would not know these things. And yes, I have MANY clues as you say, as to what the originals say. The vast majority of the copies are exactly accurate as other sources of ancient texts prove without a doubt. Are you not aware of archeological techniques and methods? You probably don’t even know that they found a huge amount of texts in Qumran a half dozen decades ago. The Masoretic texts, the Vatican texts, the pentateuchical texts all are in agreement with the Qumran texts, the ancient steiles, tablets, copper scrolls, goat skin and lamb skin scrolls, pieces of papyrii and many others. I am surprised that an intelligent adult could make the statement you made. Simply amazed. you could start by searching the net, and going to museums and see how wrong you are. then if you want to travel, it opens up many more avenues of studying ancient texts. Of course, almost all of that is available on the net anyway. So no, I do know what the originals said. And for your statement to be true, God would have to be a liar. And God CANNOT lie Jimmy.

      • Ron

        Brother Jimmy They must have called Elijah back down from Heaven for it.

        Yes you are so right, so they are obviously lying.

        God Bless You Jimmy!

  • Marian

    Geoff, thank you for periodically reviewing the pre-trib rapture doctrine. I seem to need the reinforcement, considering the alarming events in the news and the hammering we take from the post-tribbers.

    Surely, it can’t be much longer!

    • As more and more Laodicean Christians attack the doctrine of the BLESSED HOPE, NTEB will hold our position on the front lines and stay strong until that Day.

      • MARCIA

        Just want to say how much I appreciate you Geoff and the fine work you do for the Lord in teaching, exhorting and exposing. This summary is such an encouragement and it is great to have a handy list to refer back to. Keep up the good work, bro – your online family loves you in the agape love of the Lord. I pray for you and your family quite often and I’m sure other do as well. May you be blessed so much you will want to jump out of your socks!

        • Edwitness

          Marcia,
          It really is a tremendous encouragement to be reminded of the blessed hope from time to time. Which is why Paul reminded them. Titus2:13 I second your appreciation of Geoffrey for bringing this to us again.
          Blessings:-}

        • Marian

          You said it well, Marcia! Amen and amen!

      • Salt + Light

        Amen Geoffrey!

  • Loretta

    I think people are seeing different events in the pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib raptures. The pre is the bride/barley… the mid is the body/church/wheat and the post is the grape harvest.

  • JA

    Wow great post brother Geoffrey!! I don’t understand how people can’t see it!! It’s all so clear.

    • DC

      I concur, JA. People whose faith is based on works think they have to suffer to be saved.False teachers don’t have to be in a pulpit. I am concerned about the self-aggrandized “professors” who want to “school” us in their preterist, JW, or SDA beliefs and how they might confuse the new believer. I understand a healthy exchange of ideas, and Geoffrey has been gracious in letting them post, but I am tired of the droning on an on, the sarcasm and insults and know-it-all attitudes and twisting of scripture to suit their beliefs. They WANT to confuse people and are agents of the Author of Confusion and Lies. Why don’t they go start their own blog? Why do believers continue to engage with stubborn people who aren’t going to say, “You have a point” but instead say, “You’re so wrong and I am going to set you straight”? Ignore them and they’ll go away. It’s the SAME people with the SAME arguments. I skip over them, but again, I am concerned about the new Christian.

      I recently conversed here with a person who was unsure about her salvation and asked why she should continue in a faith where all she saw was arguing. I think we need to consider this and show some class when we respond to these people but keep the comments to a minimum and then part ways, agreeing to disagree. The more of a platform we give them, the more they can harm someone seeking Christ. Just my 1-cent (used to be 2 cents but since Obama….lol)

      • twr

        DC,

        It is clear that Christians are ignorant to God’s word. Going to church is works. Paying your tithes is works. When the preacher tells you to sow a seed in his ministry and God will bless you, that is works. Works is when you do something in expectation of something from God. You will not see the kingdom without works, in the proper context, from the heart.

        Matthew 25:34-46King James Version (KJV)

        34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

        35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

        36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

        37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

        38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

        39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

        40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

        41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

        42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

        43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

        44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

        45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

        46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

        These Christians were rejected for lack of works. The unlearned should stay in their place. They can’t stand intelligent conversation that disagrees with their false doctrine. They are afraid to approach you directly. They assume they have the only truth. There are two churches out there. Satan has had a counterfeit since the beginning. For someone to assume they have all truth is a bold assumption. They don’t have a site but they talk as if they do. Why are we giving them a platform. I guess if it was your site, you would block anyone who might have the truth. How can you harm someone seeking salvation? If you only have one point of view and you are wrong, you won’t find Christ anyway. So, you want Geoffrey to stop letting people post that don’t share the same view? If your view was scriptural and fact, nobody would disagree. Get a life and grow up. Nobody should have to agree with you to express an opinion.

        • DC

          Deliberate parsing of what I said. Not going to explain myself to YOU. Calling Christians ignorant will not endear you to anyone, nor your horrible doctrine. Please leave me alone. Not going to help you get off.

          • twr

            DC,

            Not all Christians. Just the ones who still don’t understand what works mean. Either you help run this site, you French, or there is a mouse in your pocket because we are letting me have a platform. Is there a gun at your head to read my posts? Even remedial Ron isn’t lobbying to have me kicked off. You are a piece of work. Hopefully you learned one thing today. Do you understand works now? You can’t do enough works. It is why you do the works. If I go to church and pay tithes because I think that is what will get me in heaven, that is works. If I’m generous from the heart, that is rewarded.

        • Emery

          twr;
          Going to church is works? Yes, but not what you think, it’s “works of the flesh”, not fruitage of the spirit. God said religions are false, Jesus said they’re “works of the flesh” and Revelation states that they are Babylon the Great. No religion teaches the same things as any other religion, and none teach what the scriptures teach in full, and accurately. They are a sad attempt to imitate the “one true faith” Jesus taught. but they are so filled with things pagan, that there is NO WAY any can honestly claim to be Christian. So their claim of Christianity is dishonest. It is “every utterance coming forth from God’s mouth” that we must live by, NOT every utterance from any religion. And having a modified copy of God’s utterances, like KJV, doesn’t cut it. With OVER 20,000 DELIBERATE mistranslated words, ADDED spurious (fictitious) texts, and the almost total elimination of God’s PERSONAL name, Jehovah, I don’t see why ANYONE would ever consider it even to be a Bible at all. Few accurate translations exist. Young’s is pretty close to accurate, and the Orthodox Jewish Bible is not as close as Young’s, but it’s FAR better of a translation than that which James the First had produced. He was of the Church of England, and they’re almost Catholic. The RCC is the FIRST fake Christian religion ever to exist, and it started in the early fourth century. ALL other so called Christian religions FOLLOW THEIR SUIT and believe mostly what the RCC believes, with modifications. No religion is approved of by God. And no, Jesus did NOT create a church, he created the “Christian Congregation” which is populated only with holy spirit annointed members of the 144,000. They are known as “Spiritual Israel” and the “Bride of Christ” and the “Body of Christ” and many other names in God’s word. Those are of course figures of speech and not literal. New Israel as they are also called isn’t a real city. They’re not a real body, or a real bride. BUT they are real co-heirs and co-kings and co-judges with the Christ. They’re actually adopted by God and the ONLY ones to go to heaven, after their resurrection to spirit bodies. That resurrection is the first resurrection, and the taking of the still living remnant, during the tribulation, just before the final battle, is what these clowns call a “rapture” of the church. No rapture is ever mentioned in the scriptures. They have to twist and “interpret” (guess at the meaning of) scriptures to pretend it means what they claim. Amazing stuff, and quite humerous, if it weren’t so very sad.

  • John

    Christians are being beheaded and tortured already in the world today. Some of them, no doubt, believed in the pre trib rapture. The same could happen here in the usa. Even if there is a pre trib rapture you could still be killed for your faith prior to that time.

    • Edwitness

      Amen John,
      So we must live like He could come at any moment, right?
      Blessings:-}

      • John33

        Ahh yes and how do you see yourself doig that if i may ask?

        • Edwitness

          John33,
          That’s a silly question. But, here’s the answer anyway.
          1 Thes.5;
          1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; 13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves. 14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. 15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 16 Rejoice evermore. 17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it…….

          MARANATHA!!!

          • Tommy

            Ed
            If the Thessalonians weren’t going to be here why was Paul describing to them the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, as if they were going to be here?

    • Jimmy

      The Apostle Paul has his head chopped off and he was the one who revealed the pre time of Jacob’s trouble catching away!

      • Salt + Light

        You’re right! LOL! Paul knew that to be out of the body we are a spirit, the spirit who believes is immediately with Christ. Paul also knew that the dead in Christ rise first at the “Catching away” (1 Thess. 4: 16)

  • Rev. Thomas Pedigo

    I used to be a Pre-Trib preacher but so many other passages of scripture just didn’t add up. So many of us overlook Paul’s teachings to the Church at Thessalonica in regard to the Rapture (the catching up, catching away, gathering up, etc.). II Thess. 2:1 sets the context – “Our gathering together with Him. Verse two Paul talks about “the day of the Lord” to those who would be confused if someone taught that it had already come. Then in Verse 3, “for it (what it?…the Rapture) will not come UNLESS the apostasy comes first.” Christians will witness the great falling away. But alas, the last part of Verse 3 says “and the man of lawlessness IS REVEALED, the son of destruction.” Believers will witness the antichrist. In Verse 4, Paul says that this person will “take his seat in the Temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” Doesn’t that happen mid-way in the Great Tribulation? Some argue the “day of the Lord” is different than the Rapture. But again, Paul sets the state in Verse 1. I’m not placing my final hope in a Pre-Trib Rapture. I hope that it could be the right interpretation… but if it is not, I am prepared to understand a different interpretation of it.

    • Edwitness

      Rev Thomas Pedigo,

      Paul explained that the apostasy, the falling away to would happen. Not the revealing of the AC.
 His description of the events surrounding the pre trib rapture are found in 2 Thes 2:1-5 generally. In vs’s 6-ff he gives a more specific layout for these events. Sort of like where we find in Genesis 1 God has made man and given him dominion. Then in chapter 2 He tells of the same event in a more detailed fashion. The first telling of it is not the end of the matter. As we read further we find the details fit together somewhat differently than how we first understood.

      In vs.6-ff Paul says that there is one that “withholds”. Then he says that he, the man of sin, must be held back until he, the withholder, is taken out of the way. It is the church that has been given the ministry of reconciliation, and it is this church, in this dispensation, that holds back the wicked one from coming to power. This is because as Jesus said “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”, the church. Mt. 16:18. 
The church must be taken out of the way for the man of sin to be revealed. Much like Lot had to leave before the destruction could fall. And if the church is here during the trib Jesus’ words to Peter would be a lie. Rev.13:7 says that the AC makes war with the saints and overcomes them. This can not be referring to the church age believers of which we are a part, based upon what Jesus said to Peter.
      Don’t give up your blessed hope so easily. He is coming for those who love His appearing. 2 Tim.4:8

      Blessings:-}

      • Salt + Light

        Edwitness,

        Some people are going to go up fighting Him, taking them out of the way of Jacob’s trouble. In 2 Tim. 4:8 he’s speaking concerning the crown of righteousness for those that love His appearing.

    • Emily

      Rev. Thomas – thank you for this! 2 Thessalonians is a major scripture that has given me pause about the pre-trib rapture. The world itself declares the time of God’s wrath has arrived after seal 6 is broken, and they wish to hide themselves from the Lamb and Him who sits on the throne. There is no indication that Jesus’ breaking of the seals is the start of wrath – it is plainly stated and doesn’t require interpretation of an allegory to understand.

      I strive to be like the Bereans and test ideas against scripture. One thing I do know: we are called to “keep our clothes with us” and to have patient endurance.

      • Ron

        Emily what is different about the first 5 seals and seal 6?

        The first 5 give the appearance it is only something being done be by man himself and because his sinful nature

        blinds him he cannot see it is in fact caused by God. But at Seal 6 which is before the Trumpets there is a worldwide

        earthquake so great and the Sign Of Jesus Christ is seen in the sky that they can no longer deny it is but

        God’s very hand. The whole 7 seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials are all God’s wrath.

        Does God sound like He’s playing when He wipes out 1.8 BILLION people by …..

        SEAL FOUR: Revelation 6:7-8 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth,

        to kill with sword,

        and with hunger,

        and with death,

        and with the beasts of the earth. 1.8 billion! Wow that would be all of China and the USA

        but a better view will be 1 in EVERY 4 persons is killed. It is ALL God’s Wrath and Jesus opens each seal

        that has more dire consequences than the last.

        God Bless!

        • Emily

          Hi Ron – people in the World War II thought it was the end of the world because conditions were so bad, so many innocent people died. Christians have been killed in dreadful circumstances throughout history – floods, natural disasters, famines, disease, and on it goes. It does not mean that God’s wrath rests on us.

          Perhaps this is how many of us go home – no one is guaranteed to be one of the ones left standing when Christ returns, and we may pass through the veil as a result of dreadful conditions. The fact that there are martyrs during the seals shows there are Christians being slain during this time, which means there are faithful Christians on earth during the breaking of the seals.

          I don’t think the seals are God’s wrath, although it is reasonable to say that the earth responds to the rising wickedness in the world. The earth groans under a curse. What I do know is that the martyrs will petition God to judge the earth – this means that God has not yet judged the earth at that moment! And there are more Christians that have to die in the same manner. When judgment/wrath is delivered, the prayers of the Saints play a role in Revelation 8. It makes sense to me that the silence in heaven after the 7th seal is the preparation for judging the earth, and we see this happening with activity in heaven.

          I’d like to know more why you believe the seals are God’s wrath? To me they are conditions that will ultimately bring about our deliverance and the end of the age, and they are necessary to bring all of Jesus’ enemies into subjection to Him. The martyrs have to ask God how long before judgment comes, which means opening the seals is not itself wrath.

          • Ron

            Emily I am busy right now so I don’t have time to write but I will get back to you.

            Because unlike “certain others” on this board who I will not name I appreciate your very tasteful and respectful answer.

            Also I tend to get a little forgetful so remind me if I don’t get back in 3 days.

            God Bless You Emily!

  • TWR

    POINT #3 is totally discredited. (Matthew 24:29-31) In Matthew 24:2 Jesus is referencing the temple being destroyed. Not one stone will be left upon a stone. The disciples asked what will be the sign of his presence and the temple destruction. He tells them about the disgusting thing and Judea fleeing to the mountains. This all happened in 70 A.D. This is a conversation just between Christ and the disciples. He tells them when THEY could expect to see these things happen.

    Matthew 24:34-35King James Version (KJV)

    34 Verily I say unto you(DISCIPLES), This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    There is nothing in the chapter of Matthew 24 that has not already happened according to the word. How can Christians put themselves on the Mount of Olives in place of the disciples, 2000 years later. Forget about the other doctrine they try to confuse you with. Just take this for what it is. Jesus already told the disciples and the crowd in Mark 9:1 that some standing there would not die before seeing the kingdom. This is strong delusion.

    • Phil

      TWR,

      “Jesus told his disciples privately in Matt 24:33-35 that their generation would by no means pass away without seeing all these things occur.”

      No, He did not say their generation. He said ‘this’ generation. That is very flexible. You are using about 5 verses to neutralize entire books and numerous passages in both Testaments.

      The prophecies that looked forward to the First Advent were fulfilled in explicit detail. They didn’t even have any meaning when they were written:

      “they pierced my hands and my feet”
      “I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me”
      “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture”
      “They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.”

      Somehow, the idea has caught on that God likes to just yank our chain with metaphorical language that enables us to say that what is written means whatever we want it to mean. I will never buy into that. If He went to the trouble to prompt John to write:

      “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him”

      then I’m not going to accept that what he really meant was “a few eyes will see Him, and He will look like Roman Legions”. And so on with every last detail, start to finish. Every inspired word counts.

      ===

      “If Jesus is on the mount privately with his disciples and he tells them all these things must occur before this generation passes away, are we to assume he was talking thru them to us?”

      Of course we can. Why would he bother to have the Olivet Discourse published in three Gospels if it was only insider information for them? If he meant that it would all be over in 70AD, we ought to be able to look back and account for every detail. But we cannot, because essentially nothing He told His disciples has ever occurred. Have you ever inventoried all the things He mentioned? It is a long, tedious list. Preferred meanings and interpretations of a few verses does not outweigh the immensity of the events He and John spoke and wrote about. Who were the two witnesses? Did Josephus fill in that blank?

      ===

      “There is nothing in the chapter of Matthew 24 that has not already happened according to the word”

      Don’t tell me. Show me.

  • Cooleemee edd

    Perfect! Here it is, all together in one place. No more needs to be said. I believed it already, but this really nails it down.

    Thanks,

    EDD

  • Richard

    John33
    You and I and the chosen of Christ cannot earn (through suffering, pain, or tribulation– our salvation, our righteousness, our glory, or anything good in this life. Its a gift from God and through Jesus. So stop trying to be pretend your eternal life will be in part due to trials or tribulations that you need to overcome.
    Its prideful, sanctimonious, and scripturally ignorant. Everyone born suffers mentally, physically and spiritually in this life in all manor of degrees until the last breath of their life. So stop pretending you are special and need to be purified when it has already happened through grace, mercy and love.

  • Richard

    The “rapture” is going to happen first. Just like the resurrection of the saints comes first. I’m looking everyday for His coming. The signs of the coming antichrist and tribulation judgments from our Father are warnings to keep watching for the day is drawing near, but let God be God and stop pretending we have anything to do with the salvation of his creation. He calls whom he calls and we have nothing to do with whom he does not call or any judgments that are dispensed here on earth or in hell.

  • carson

    ?
    Rev 19 description of events at the second coming DO talk of the 1st resurrection, but someone along time ago stuck a chapter division in the middle of it.
    Rev 20:1-6 is the finish of the events of rev 19 and the second coming, read it through.

    why is it one is either pre-trib or post-trib?
    There’s pre-wrath also, which isn’t post, mid, or pre, but pre-WRATH.

    • Edwitness

      Carson,
      Pre-wrath is also known as mid-trib. As it is generally thought that God’s wrath begins to be poured out about 1/2 way through. But, As I understand it there is no evidence for a 7 year trib found in the New Testament.
      Blessings:-}

      • carson

        Hi ED.
        Yeah mid-trib is not really pre-wrath. Who knows when mid-trib’ers think the catching up comes..right at the AC’s seating perhaps? Yet rev 7 shows a group who came out of the GREAT trib, and matthew 24:15-21 establishes when the Great trib starts (abomination THEN Great trib) and since one cannot come out of what one was never in mid trib/mid 7 years doesn’t fit with rev 7, they came out of Great trib, saw some portion of the last 42 months and beast era, further rev 15:1-2 shows them again and say’s they overcame the beast worship and mark, can’t overcome what one never saw, yet their in heaven before the 7 vials of wrath are poured out.

        Yeah there’s no 7 years of tribulation, there’s 3 1/2 years/42 months per rev 11 and rev 13, so the 7 seals starts after the seating of the AC (abomination of desolation/called desolation for a reason) then the 7 trumps then the 7 vials, of which of the 3 sets is the term ‘wrath’ specifically attached to? the 7 vials, the last set, and with the given verses=pre-wrath.

        So mid trib=meaning mid 7 years isn’t valid since the Great trib is 42 months. The first half of the 7 year covenant with the many doesn’t have any description that those first 3 1/2 years, before the AC seats himself, are ‘tribulation’. Mid trib=sometime during the LAST 42 months but before the return of the Lord and before the 7 vials of the wrath of God are poured out? is more easily understood if one say’s-pre-wrath.

        also worth looking at, rev 6:9 and rev 20:4 have ‘souls’ of believers and say’s they died and describes how and why they died.
        Yet rev 7 and rev 15 folks are not called souls, does not say they died nor how or why they might have died.
        Does take the time to say they were hungry and thirsty and appears outdoors/sun beat down on them though, and again shows them in heaven before the 7 vials of wrath are poured out and that they overcame whatever portion of the beast era that they saw…
        Why are they not called souls, and how did they get into heaven before the 7 vials and or return of the Lord as per rev 19? And these are not those of rev 20:4 since those ‘souls’ are shown raised after the return of the Lord/at the 1st resurrection.

        Also worth looking at is the timing of the sealing of the 144,000, people say these replace the church who was pre-trib raptured, yet rev 7 shows the vast group came out of the Great trib..coming out of it is not before it but out from being in it..not before, also reflects over to rev 15:1-2, if they’d come out before the beast era how did they manage to overcome him/worship and mark? can’t overcome what one never saw, and again their somehow in heaven before the 7 vials and before the return of the Lord as per rev 19.

        and the catching up resurrection vs the 1st resurrection of rev 20 is something, I heard one person say if God doesn’t wish to name the catching up resurrection the official 1st resurrection then He won’t lol.
        I can’t say I’m 100% pre-wrath but looking long at the very many scriptures it just seems to fit better, I used to be more pre-trib. Is maybe why I don’t argue or condemn people for catching up timing views, abide in Christ bear much fruit more will be revealed in His timing.

        • Edwitness

          Carson,
          Hey brother. It is also my understanding that Jesus fulfilled the first 1/2 of the last week and that is why all that is left to take place is 3 1/2 years. With this in mind it leads one to the conclusion that the AC comes to power and immediately begins his reign as satan’s man. With all the horror of Rev.13 etc…
          Blessings:-}

          • carson

            yeah it’s amazing when you consider it, the abomination of desolation is called/termed desolation for a reason…

            The AC seats himself up before the world as if God and the abomination is also abominable in that the whole world, all whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life, will hail him and worship him as if he were…rev 13:8.

            I still look for a 7 year covenant with the many (but yeah the first half of that 7 years is not the tribulation) and france seems to have taken the reins of the peace process, and france favors the muslims as does the UN and much of europe now (their leaders), so with france heading it up I suspect they’ll all force israel to accept a palestinian state this time around. The US may stand out of the way, abstain from voting nay or yay, interesting times.
            God bless you abide and rejoice always the Lord has this all already in His hands.

  • Eddie

    I don’t for the life of me understand why someone who doesn’t believe in the pre trib rapture will come on this site and try to condemn it. It is prophesied about in the Old Testament too. In the Book of Zephaniah

    1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

    2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD’S anger come upon you.

    3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.

    • twr

      Because it’s a lie. There are flesh bodies in the millennium. How could that be if we will all be changed?

      Isaiah 65:20-23King James Version (KJV)

      20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

      21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

      22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

      23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

      • Eddie

        That’s talking about the when the curse of the sin of death is lifted as it was before the flood when people live for hundreds of years. The only ones that are changed are the ones in the body of Christ. If you want to believe your lie go right ahead. If you really believe that the Body of Christ is going through the tribulation you either don’t know how to rightly divide you Bible our you don’t know Christ! If you really believe that then enjoy your tribulation, as for me I’ll be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

        • twr

          Eddie,

          Says who? There is nowhere in the bible that says a sin curse will be lifted. Christ is not his name. Jesus is not even his name. The letter J didn’t exist on the earth until around 1500. The tribulation was between 66 and 73 A.D. when the temple was destroyed and the Israelites were killed, enslaved or scattered.

          Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
          9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

          I believe in the marriage feast but there is no rapture and no tribulation. Some genius said let’s cut the 70 weeks short and say it comes at a later date. That’s not biblical or scriptural either, but people will believe anything. It’s called strong delusion. Tribulation was for the holy ones. It’s Jacob’s trouble. When did Christians become Jacob. Wow!!!!

          • Phil

            twr,

            “There is nowhere in the bible that says a sin curse will be lifted.”

            Then what do Matthew 12:31, Mark 3:28 and Colossians 2:13-15 actually mean?

            ===

            “The tribulation was between 66 and 73 A.D. when the temple was destroyed and the Israelites were killed, enslaved or scattered.”

            No, I’m sorry but this is simply incorrect. The Temple was destroyed, and the Jews could not resist the Roman legions under Titus. But it was not until the second Jewish-Roman war which occurred decades later, that Hadrian banned Jews, and Jewish Christians from entering Jerusalem. If you’re going to drag secular history into your interpretation, you have to make all of it work.

            The problem for you is that none of this lives up to something Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:

            “21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

            That would include everything from the Genesis flood to War II. You still have some work to do.

          • Emily

            TWR – Mark 9 was indeed fulfilled! John was the one standing there who saw the vision of Christ coming into His kingdom before he tasted death – this is the book of Revelation! But the events of Revelation are significantly beyond the overthrow of Jerusalem by Titus.

            You are correct that 70 AD was a fulfillment of Jesus’ words that Jerusalem would be surrounded and made desolate – Christians heeded Jesus words and fled, whereas Jews who listened to their priests and prophets prophesying victory died, but 70 AD was a minor fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. There were precursors to the abomination of desolation as well. What you are missing is the promise that God would return the remnant of Israel to His land. Israel’s return is shown in Ezekiel 37 – The Valley of Dry bones, a picture of the holocaust. Israel is the sign of the fig tree in Matthew 24. God will remove all idols from His land (see Zechariah 13). God will enter into judgement with all nations and plead for His land, which has yet to happen:

            “I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.” Joel 3:2

            The time of Jacob’s trouble is when the Anti-Christ invades Israel, surrounds Jerusalem, kills many people and sets up his kingdom in Jerusalem. He is allowed to rule for a short time. Yet even then God will deliver a remnant of Jews faithful to Him – who else would populate the land during Christ’s millennial reign? Christ becomes their Messiah, as prophesied.

            Then Satan has one last hurrah.

            On a side note – see Paul’s note about how all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) – we are part of Jacob/Israel.

        • Ron

          Eddie I fully agree feel free to sit near me at the wedding supper!

          That is the one thing no one can reconcile.

          If after The Tribulation everyone then gets Raptured and given GLORIFIED BODIES

          NO ONE AND I REPEAT NO ONE WILL BE LEFT TO ENTER THE TRIBULATION AND REPOPULATE THE EARTH BECAUSE

          Matthew 22:23-30 The same day came to him the Sadducees,

          which say that there is no resurrection,

          and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children,

          his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

          Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue,

          left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

          And last of all the woman died also.

          Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

          Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

          For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

          IF EVERYONE IS IN A GLORIFIED BODY AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage

          and no one will be left to repopulate the Earth.

          God Bless You Eddie!

          • Emery

            It’s so VERY sad that not ONE WORD of what you posted above is true. None of the scriptures you reference mean what you said they mean. NOT ONE Ron. And you won’t be in heaven, ever. No one who is part of a religion will. Only a small number ever go to heaven, and they must be transformed into spirit persons in order to enter heaven.

          • Ron

            The Rapture is PreTrib, you would not believe the loonies I heard in this one group get together talking about how

            they dreamt this or had a vision of that and that the Rapture was in many parts and how there were going to fight

            the antichrist ( won’t be any trib saint standing up to satan’s man or defeating his armies, except the 2 witnesses

            initially vaporizing anyone who would hard them before the 3 1/2 year mark ) and do this and that. It was like

            every time they were getting together they were trying to out do each other with their nonsense. I got a good laugh

            out of it and that was 1994 where must this sort of thing be now?

            Going Home Soon!!!!!

          • Ron,
            Yes, the large cap E and the small cap e are the same edwitness. I type it with all small caps and the computer changes it sometimes.
            Thank you and blessings brother.
            MARANATHA!! 🙂

    • Ron

      Thank You Eddie another learning lesson for me I missed that one!

      also another one from The Old Testament….

      Isaiah 26:19-21 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

      God Bless You Eddie!

      • Eddie

        Your welcome! I missed the one you quoted myself thank you sir! Btw, I’ll be glad to sit by you!

  • William James, PhD

    Geoffrey, thank you for teaching the truth. Just a few comments.

    • We who believe in the Pre-trib Rapture may not have selfish motives at all, i.e., we should be pleading with everyone we know to get ready before judgment comes.
    • The judgment in Rev. 6-19 is severe beyond our ability to comprehend. By the 4th seal (Rev. 6:7-8) 1/4 of the world’s population is dead; by the 6th trumpet (Rev. 9:15-18) 1/3 of those remaining perish; then the really severe 7 bowls and Armageddon (Rev. 16) take most of the remaining population so that only a small minority of the world’s 7 billion inhabitants survive after 7 years. I earnestly pray for and warn all my family and friends so they will be delivered from this horrible time of wrath from heaven. Jesus asked us to love others as much as we love ourselves so therefore I pray for others because I would be terrified if I thought me and my family would be subjected to the terrible times lying ahead. Every time Christians are mentioned in the tribulation, it speaks of them being martyred. (Rev. 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 13:7; 20:4).
    • God never pours out His wrath on His own children. Jesus said we would have trials and tribulations and may even be martyred but these troubles come from Satan and the sinful nature of man. The angels told Lot to move out of Sodom quickly because they could not do a thing until Lot and family was gone (Gen. 19:19-22). God poured out His wrath on Sodom but would not destroy Sodom if only 10 righteous were found. A beautiful picture of the Pre-trib Rapture.
    • The wrath of the Lamb is poured out on the world from the time He opens the first seal in Rev. 6:1 (note especially 6:16-17) all the way to Armageddon 16:16. But Christ’s bride is hidden safely at home in heaven (Isa. 26:19-21).
    • To me, Enoch not being a Jew was Raptured before the flood because he pleased God, a picture of the church. Noah was delivered through the flood a picture of Israel (Mat. 24:16-22). The Lord asked those in Judea (Israel) to flee into the mountains from the worst judgment the whole world has ever known (Dan. 12:1) where He will protect them for 1260 days or 3.5 years (Rev. 12:6). This judgment will be world-wide and is far greater than what happened locally to Israel in 70 AD (Rev. 3:10).
    • You quoted Mat. 24:19-31 regarding Christ’s 2nd coming which causes mourning throughout the entire world. And Jesus will gather His elect from the 4 winds and from one end of heaven to the other. Notice where the elect come – heaven where they are located after the Rapture and before His 2nd Coming.
    • Regarding the 2nd Coming, those who become Christians during the 7-year tribulation will know exactly to the day when His 2nd Coming will occur. It will come exactly 7 years (2520 days) after the Antichrist confirms a covenant with many concerning Israel (Dan. 9:27; 12:11). To those who are not written in the Book of Life, sudden destruction will come upon them without warning because they do not know the truth of Scripture (1 Thes. 5:1-9). Notice the difference between we and them in this passage and that we are not destined to the coming terrible wrath in vs 9.

    • Emily

      If the opening of the first seal is the beginning of wrath, why are there martyrs under the altar that are told to wait a while longer until their full number came in? They ASK for judgment of the earth, which has not yet happened even as of the fifth seal:

      “9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.”

      In fact, the kings of the earth declare the day of wrath after the sixth seal is opened: “15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

      Then it makes sense that John writes “After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.” Revelation 7:9

      The seals of Revelation are quite likely the prophecy scroll that was sealed in Daniel 12.

    • Ron

      Well Said William!

      God Bless You William!

    • Excellent comments, thanks for sharing 🙂

  • Amber

    Thank you, Geoffrey!

  • Emily

    A few points.

    First – let me say that if God wants to rapture the church before the Tribulation, I’m totally, completely fine with this plan! Second, I have read opinion, upon opinion for 15 years, and no one theory has been a slam-dunk for me. What has made sense to me is Robert Van Kampen’s book, which argues fairly convincingly for a mid-ish trib, pre-wrath position. A shortened version of this is at: http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0006.html. Third, I do know that we are promised trouble (tribulation) in this life. We are currently seeing Christians in great persecution right now. Right now, being martyred for the faith. Fourth, I do believe that Jesus indicated we would see the Anti-Christ rise in the Olivet discourse, which refers to the Abomination of Desolation in Daniel.

    Those that take the pre-trib position, I would like to know how you interpret the rest of Rev 12, particularly verse 17:

    17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Revelation 12

    Revelation 12 is speaking of persecution of Christians after the remnant of Israel flees.

    The difference between now and the Great Tribulation is that the veil between us and demons will be lifted – Satan will be confined to earth, and a demonic army will pour from the abyss (Rev 9). People will be tormented by demons yet still curse God. The bowl judgments, for example, are clearly wrath and we are not destined for wrath. Currently, the restrainer is in place (2 Thessalonians 2). Thank God the restrainer is still in place – once he is removed, there will be a time in human history like none other. We are not destined for wrath, but the time of wrath seems to be after Anti-Christ rises. Why would we need to know him as anti-Christ if there are not Christians for him to persecute in this time? Consider why Jesus has to warn us to not be deceived if someone says here is the Christ (Matthew 24:23).

    On another note, I believe there have been multiple raptures, which calls into question a single rapture theory. Enoch seems to have been raptured, and Elijah. The Two Witnesses of Revelation will be resurrected and ascend to heaven in view of mankind (a voice says “come up here” in Revelation 11:12 – so this phrase is not reserved just for a rapture of living Christians, since the witnesses were slain and their bodies refused burial).

    Regarding the 24 elders with their crowns, is it not possible that they were the ones whose graves were opened and the bodies of many holy people were raised to life (Matthew 27:52)? I think it is quite possible that Jesus brought them to heaven in his wake as he presented himself to the Father after his resurrection.

    I have questions that have never been answered by the pre-trib theory.

    • twr

      Emily,

      Everyone wants to be saved. Christians are inserting themselves into the story where they do not belong. In Revelation 12:17, it says those who keep God’s commands (Law). Christians do not keep the law. They believe it has been done away with. Revelation 12 could not possibly be talking about Christians because it is Jacob’s trouble. Satan has been on earth (Luke 10:18). He made war against the holy ones 66-70 A.D., desecrated and destroyed the temple. Elijah was sent before the great day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5). Elijah was John the Baptist (Matthew 11:14). Isaiah 45:18 says the Lord formed the earth to be inhabited. I don’t understand where people are being raptured to when the Messiah is coming here. Pre, mid, and post are bogus false doctrine. It’s Jacob’s trouble. There is not ONE scripture in the bible that says Christians will be persecuted.

      • Emily

        TWR – I’m sorry – but I can’t agree with you. Revelation 12:17 clearly states that those persecuted by the dragon have a testimony about Christ to which they hold fast – that describes Christians. Jesus said to Christians, if you love me, you obey my commands (John 14:15). The greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength (Matthew 22:38)- more than life. We do, indeed, keep his commands.

        Please read Matthew 10 – which demonstrates that Christians will indeed be persecuted. Jesus said for us to remember when we are hated, the world hated Him first. Please read Matthew 24. Jesus said there would be persecution. “9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” Indeed, Christians were martyred throughout history. The Romans killed them. Even the Catholic church killed them. They are currently persecuted in China and North Korea. Now they are being killed in the Middle East and Africa by the thousands. Jesus’ words are true.

        Isaiah 24 shows a devastation of the earth due to the increase of wickedness. This has not yet happened. When do you think it might? The earth will wobble like a drunkard. Every mountain and island will be removed from its place (Revelation 6:14).

    • No, Revelation 12 is talking about the Woman, Israel, being forced to flee to the Red Rock City of Selah Petra. No Church anywhere there at all.

      THE REAL MEANING OF THE WORD SELAH IN THE BIBLE:
      http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/the-real-meaning-of-the-word-selah-in-the-bible/

      • Emily

        So who is in 12:17, those that hold fast to their testimony of Christ and the dragon makes war with them? It is not the woman (Israel) who has fled to protection for 1260 days.

        • Ron

          The woman is Israel and that is why in Matthew Chapter 24 when you see the Abomination that makes Desolate it tells the Jews to flee and they flee to Petra for Times Time and 1/2 a Time ( 3 1/2 years )

          For just as God opened The Earth to swallow up

          Numbers 16:28-34 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.

          This flood is the Antichrist’s Army that is sent after these Jews and Just like in Numbers 16:28 to 34

          God will cause the Earth to open up and do the same to them and those in Petra will be untouchable.

          Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

          • Emily

            Ron – some people believe that the woman is the virgin bride of Christ, with Mary being a proto-type of the bride. I happen to to believe that this woman is Israel, and it shows a returning of the remnant to accept their Messiah – the virgin daughter of Zion as in Isaiah 62: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+62

            But my question remains unanswered about Rev. 12:17 – no one is explaining who these people are, but they are clearly Christians since they have hold fast to the testimony – or gospel – of Christ. The dragon makes war with them since he cannot get at the woman.

            Ah well – this is typical – the inconvenient scriptures are simply ignored. This has been my experience with those who hold dogmatically to the pre trib position.

    • Edwitness

      Emily,
      There will be those who are saved during the trib that did not come to faith in Christ before the trib. Many of these will resist the AC and will pay for it with their lives. Rev. 13
      Blessings:-}

  • CHAR

    John33, I take offense when you say:
    What about all these lost souls do you mourn and think of them maye your own family members that will go through this ahh but who cares right as long as we safe with jesus right well i would like to stay untill the end serve God and be there for the lost souls before they will burn foever.

    Really??? Do you really think that none of us are praying for our loved ones to be saved BEFORE the rapture or they will be left behind? Get real, John. I couldn’t tell you how many hours I’ve spent praying for my children to come to know the Lord so they DON’T go through the tribulation. I’m sure there’s plenty of others on this website who are seriously praying for their loved ones also to make it in the rapture and not have to go through the horrors of the tribulation, but you can stay behind to preach along with the 144,000 if it makes you feel better.

    I’m with Geoffrey’s belief and many others that THERE WILL BE A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE AND VERY SOON! You and many others are very fortunate that God doesn’t consider this a deal breaker or you’d be left behind (but that’s what you seem to want anyway, right?)

    • twr

      Deceived.

      Believing in the rapture is God’s punishment for Christians. There is no other was to explain it.

      2 Thessalonians 2:10-11King James Version (KJV)
      10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
      11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

      Neither the rapture or seven year tribulation is biblical concepts. They are doctrine constructed to deceive those who don’t love the truth. Christians overlook who the Messiah was sent for. He clearly stated he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Christians ignore why the Messiah said he was giving his life, and who he was giving it for.

      Matthew 20:28(KJV)28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

      Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)
      15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

      The Messiah gave his life as a ransom to release first testament saints from the curse of the law.
      Jeremiah 50:20King James Version (KJV)
      20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

      It wasn’t until after the resurrection (Matthew 28:19) that the Messiah said make disciples of all nations. During his entire ministry, he did not minister to gentiles. He told his disciples only minister to Israel. Just because Paul was apostle to gentiles, Christians have fallen for the deception that their sins that had not been committed died at the cross with the Israelites the Messiah came to redeem. Gentile, Strong’s #1290, also means a converted Israelite resident of a gentile nation. When Paul said he forgave our sins, once again, Christians fail to consider who the actual listener is. The only sins forgiven were first covenant saints. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says we must all stand judgment for good and bad done in our body.

      In spite of al the ramblings of Paul that most can’t understand, he does tell us faith does not make void the law, and we are to establish the law (Romans 3:31). Christians don’t believe in the law or the commandments. Christians believe man had the right to change God’s Holy Day, which he commissioned all of us to keep. The Sabbath is not worship. It is an observance. It is the fourth commandment. If you break one, you have broken them all. Everyone will sin, but to not keep the Sabbath or do your will or follow man by calling Sunday the Sabbath, you have become habitual. This is why you are given over to the delusions of false doctrine like the rapture and tribulation.

      Instead of keeping the commandments and knowing you are in God’s grace, you fall for false doctrines like eternal security when you can’t even keep the Sabbath. Christians didn’t replace Israel and Israel didn’t become Christians. If you want Israel’s blessings you have to become Israel. Christians got an invitation in Ephesians 2:10-20 to become Israelites, but chose a lawless doctrine instead. When the Messiah is telling his people in Mark 9:1 that some of them standing there would see the kingdom of God, instead of accepting it was about that generation, you make your own doctrine and insert yourselves into the conversation. When he is telling his disciples in Matt 24 that their generation will not pass until all is fulfilled, you become that generation and that is why you cannot see the truth. You don’t want to keep Jacob’s commandments, you don’t want Jacob’s trouble, but you want to fly away and receive Jacob’s blessings. If that doesn’t seem wrong to somebody, then this is just a waste of time because you have strong delusion and you are perishing.

      Maranatha

      • Ron

        That is the first time I have seen you post Scripture about what will happen to you.

        I will give you a Prophecy that those you accuse on this page of these things many will be gone in the Rapture

        and you will soil yourself extensively because it happened and you are still here.

        My very words will judge you, and most likely you will fall over yourself to meet the AC thinking he is god.

        • twr

          Ron,

          I’m so sure. God hates those that obey his word so much that I will think the AC is God. All my sins are forgiven. I don’t have to follow the commandments. Sounds like you who believe you will be gone are already following the AC. There is no man that can do anything to steal your soul. You have to give it or be deceived into giving it. Those who follow the lawless doctrine will discover the man of sin in the mirror. Sin is transgression of the law. If you don’t follow the law, how will you know sin? Break one, break them all. Don’t observe the Sabbath, break them all habitually. The Sabbath is a covenant forever. You want to be Jacob? Ha! If you love me keep my commandments. Where is the love Ron?

          Matthew 19:17-18King James Version (KJV)

          17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

          18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

          That includes the fourth commandment also Ron. You might be meeting the AC falling for a rapture that is not even in the bible. That is what I would be worried about.

  • Twr

    Phil,

    Matthew 12:31, Mark 3:28 and Colossians 2:13-15

    Jeremiah 50:20King James Version (KJV)

    20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

    It has nothing to do with Christians. Matthew 18:11(KJV) For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    First testament saints. Those first testament saints that would have been standing in the crowd in Mark 9:1. That generation that would have been part of Matthew 24:33-35. The temple was destroyed as prophesied in Matthew 24:2. What difference does it make about Jews and Christians being banned? There was no temple. Tribulation is man made. Acts of God not included. What do you think man can cook up that is worse than the flood? Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:13-15 should match up. Strong delusion. It was Jacob’s trouble. Christians are not Jacob.

    • Ron

      Twr May The Lord give you Judgment that is deserving of your very deception and mistruths used in your false doctrine.

  • twr

    Emily,

    Clearly an assumption that Mark 9:1 only referred to John and his vision. He said some standing here would see the kingdom. The antichrist did surround, invade and kill many in Jerusalem. Are you saying he has to do it again? Israel will be returned to their land in the last days, which means they are not there yet.

    You say Christians will have a testimony to Christ. These were the Israelites who kept God’s commandments thru the destruction of the temple. If you love me keep my commandments (law) couldn’t be directed at Christians. Christians believe the law was abolished.

    I’m glad you mentioned Matthew 10, as many ministers do. There were no Christians in Matthew 10. I believe the first time they were called that was in Acts. Matthew 10 is Jesus giving instructions to his disciples, which included do not go any where near gentiles. Jesus is talking to no one but his disciples in Matthew 10. Jesus is talking to no one but his disciples in Matthew 24 when he says truly I say unto you this generation will not pass without all things being fulfilled. How is it when Jesus is having conversations with people that we somehow manage to interject ourselves? Is there clear evidence that in Matthew 24:33-35 that Jesus was talking to anyone but his disciples? Was he talking thru them to us? Imagine the conversation. Look Peter, guys, I’m telling YOU this generation will not pass. This is one of the deceptive practices of Christianity and religion. No matter who is the listener, it becomes us. The final judgment has not happened. Everything before Revelation 13:11 is history. 13:11 is when Rome became Christian Rome.

    • Emily

      TWR – I recognize you have a preterist perspective and I will not argue preterism with you in this note. However, it is clear in Matthew 28 that the great commission is to preach the gospel to all nations until the end of the age: “18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

      Previously, in Matthew 24, the disciples asked about both the destruction of the temple of Herod that Jesus had just declared (no stone would be left upon another) AND the end of the age: “3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

      In Matthew 10 and other scriptures, it is clear that those who bring the gospel can expect tribulation in life. But this is the only time we will ever be able to live by faith.

      When John was told to measure the temple – with the exception of the outer courts that have been given unto the gentiles to trample the holy city for 42 months – the temple of Herod had ALREADY been destroyed; it cannot be the sample temple Titus burned and overthrew. I have studied this, and it is clear to me that what modern-day Israel calls the temple mount is Roman Fortress Antonia. I believe Jesus’ prophesy that not only would the temple be overthrown, but Jerusalem too. Hadrian, for good measure, plowed the land where the temple had once stood – which is below the Haram in the City of David or where Mt. Zion once stood but was cut down by zealots well before Jesus’ time. Your claim that nothing before Revelation 13:11 is history does not fit the fact that John (again, the temple had already been destroyed and Revelation was written after 90 AD) in Revelation 4: “”Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” He is being shown the future, not the past.

      Matthew 10’s admonition to go to houses of Israel was for that mission trip, and it is consistent with Paul saying that the gospel was first for the Jews and then the gentiles. Jesus ministered to gentiles in his time because that was His primary mission until they finally and definitively rejected their Messiah: who was cut off and left nothing. They then reaped the curses and God opened the church age. What is fascinating to me as that there are people that likely descend from scattered Israel but became Christians from whom current people are descended. That aside – the purpose of Matthew 10 and on was to turn the hearts of the Israel to the Messiah and give them a chance to accept Him. To say that the apostles would never have anything to do with gentiles is not supportable. Jesus words are true for the persecution of Christians as in 1 Peter 4:

      “12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?”

      Paul discusses that Jews are of the true vine, yet we gentiles are wild olives grafted into the root, which is Jesus. I believe Paul indicates that “all Israel”, Jews and gentile believers, will be saved. At some point the natural branches will be grafted back in: “After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in” Romans 11: 24,25

      I would like for you to show with scripture that Titus was the one and only Anti-Christ spoken of by Daniel. We know that there spirit of anti-Christ was already in the world from 1 John 4:3 – “This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” Titus would have had to confirm a covenant with ancient Israel for 7 years nor was he destroyed by Jesus at Armageddon. He went on to live and reign as Caesar, and die, and pass leadership on. Jesus was discussing the end of the age when he mentions the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.

      Since you are preterist, I doubt it is worth the time go further, because there are very few scriptures we will agree upon. I do know that prophecy is still being fulfilled today – and I find that exciting and amazing! I do know I trust God, and ask for His strength for today and tomorrow, whatever it may bring.

      • twr

        Emily,

        I don’t know what a preterist is. I read the word and pray for guidance. Everything with Christians is based on assumption. Doctrine is based on assumption and interpretation. If you read something that agrees with you, you take it as is. If it doesn’t agree with doctrine, you find explanations that agree with you. The whole ministry of Jesus was about the end of the age. Strong delusion of Christianity is we are taught to read the bible from a listeners perspective. Try reading from a speakers perspective. I’m telling my disciples and crowds that this generation will not pass and some of you standing here will live to see the kingdom of God. There is no argument. How do you talk to people in front of you but really be talking to people 2,000 years later. So, if Christians put the same energy into trying to reconstruct events within that timeframe as they do trying to manifest them in our time, you might discover what I have. Israelites may have been Paul’s primary mission, but they were the Messiah’s only mission (Matthew 15:24-26).

        I know there is gentile salvation. I know what is required of gentiles to obtain that salvation.

        Isaiah 56:6-7King James Version (KJV)

        6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

        7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

        Do you think God is a joke? I have been preaching Sabbath and commandments on hear for almost a year. Everyone else believes it is a joke. God gave you the criteria for gentile salvation. Keep the Sabbath and keep from profaning it. Take hold of his covenant. That is keeping the law. If you are not keeping his Sabbath or you are profaning it, why worry about a rapture that will not include you? What religion changed the day of rest from God’s day to Sunday?

        Revelation 13:16-17King James Version (KJV)

        16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

        17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

        There is a riddle at Rev. 13, and it concerns “buying and selling”.

        The beast is organized in 3 layers of control: clergy, nobility (rulers), and common people (laity). It effectively steers all nations and peoples, exerting its teaching authority.
        This is the objective of ecumenism.
        The beast order endeavors to misdirect the qodeshim away from Torah, and hide the true Name of salvation, and His Word (wisdom).
        To “measure” or “calculate” the wrong day for Sabbath would certainly be an obvious target for the enemy, and we see that those who adhere to the incorrect “Sabbath” can “buy and sell” (on the true Sabbath). Those who cannot “buy and sell” have calculated (interpreted) correctly, and therefore do not profane the true Sabbath.

        The beast doesn’t prevent anyone from “buying and selling” it is the result of NOT having the mark of the beast that restricts us from “buying and selling” – but only on the Sabbath, the 7th day of each week (not Sun-day).

        • TWR is a Seventh Day Adventist, here is what the SDA’s teach and believe:

          WHAT THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS WON’T TELL YOU ABOUT THEIR TEACHINGS: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/what-the-seventh-day-adventists-wont-tell-you/

          • twr

            OMG! The great Geoffrey is analyzing me. I can count on both hands how many times I stepped into a church of any kind since 1990 when I raised my hand to defend this country. It’s not about church or doctrine. The most high does not dwell in temples made by hand. I observe the Sabbath. Six days I do my pleasure and on the seventh day, I rest and for 24 hours, I belong to God. I study. I pray and my understanding of the word has increased exponentially. There are very few reasons to get me in a church.

            Speaking of church, it didn’t exist in the time of Israel. The Levites were the only ones that could approach God. Did you know they tied a rope to the priest in case he offended God? They couldn’t go in and get him. As Holy as the Most High is, it is ludicrous to think he dwells in your false temples. I keep his laws but I wouldn’t go in. I would stay outside with the rope and pull as many of you out as I could.

            Matthew 10:17King James Version (KJV)
            17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues

            It is also abundantly clear that the Jews are not Israelites and have never been God’s people. His presence was never in their synagogues. It was only in the temple of true Israelites.

            Revelation 3:9King James Version (KJV)

            9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

            Nice to finally hear from you Geoffrey. No pun, I really do enjoy the site and the conversations. I’m not SDA, JW, Christian, Orthodox or any of that. I’m Torah observant. I’m an Israelite. I’m a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I transcend your concept of religion. I don’t defile myself with women (churches, false religion). I just follow the Lamb and the example he set upon this earth. He kept the Sabbath and the commandments. He is the word and wisdom of the Most High. Imagine the Mesiah walking up out of the pages of the Torah (instruction).

            John 5:46-47King James Version (KJV)

            46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

            47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

            When you reject any of his commandments, you reject him. He is those commandments in the flesh. I think you sell me short. I don’t believe SDA or JW are as deep or dedicated as I am. Religion is man made. You know it’s all about tithes that are not new covenant. I enjoyed that article. It’s a little late in the game to be playing holy and deceiving people. God knows your heart. Go to church and pay your tithes. What does it mean?

            Isaiah 29:13King James Version (KJV)

            13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

            The Most High, in his wisdom wrote the law for the benefit and righteousness of man. He didn’t scrap it. It went from being an obligatory curse to a sign of affection.

            Romans 3:31King James Version (KJV)

            31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

            SHALOM BROTHER

        • Emily

          TWR – you do indeed sound like a 7th Day Adventist – they are hyper-focused on the Sabbath, although Paul discussed that some believe one day is holier than another, and others do not in Romans 14:5 “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.” I have read a number of opinions it does not ring true in my spirit that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast. The beast will demand worship whenever it pleases him, just like when the Babylonians played music and demand people worship an image of Nebuchadnezzar. It is about people control, and we will know when we are asked to deny Christ.

          Many 7th Day Adventists are preterists – which means you believe that prophecy has already been fulfilled – but yet you have not proved to me that Titus was the Anti-Christ. Hadrian could just as easily have been – he crushed the Bar-Kokbah revolt, and he renamed Jerusalem after himself. He also renamed the land for Israel’s ancient enemies: the Philistines (from which Palestine is derived). But this was not the end of the age as we are all here with the world going on.

          What most prophecy scholars missed in early times was the regathering of the nation of Israel. That Israel was regathered under extraordinary circumstances, and in such a way as to meet OT prophecy, then prophecy is still being fulfilled today. Thus, the full preterist stance is voided.

          A cult will always say they have some “secret” that only the few wise ones will understand, and everyone else is deceived. Howard Camping also sowed distrust of church leadership and he was flat out wrong. God led me to talk with one of his disciples the Thursday before they said God was supposed to return to judge the earth. One of the ways that I could tell that they were in error was that a) they were teaching apostasy, b) they cherry picked scripture and ignored others, and c) they did not mention Jesus was the only way to salvation. None of Jesus’ words were in their pamphlet. I asked the disciple what he would do when he woke up Sunday morning and he was still here – and he would not entertain the thought. Then I asked him to not lead others astray – as I would ask you the same.

          Do you confess that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for your sins, and was raised from the dead?

          • twr

            Emily,

            It is not necessary for me to prove there was an antichrist. Jesus came for his own. He was only sent to his own. He gave his life as ransom for many. He never said he came to die for the sins of the world.

            Matthew 20:28King James Version (KJV)
            28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

            Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)
            15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

            He died for old testament saints, period. Sure, after the resurrection, he said make disciples of the nations. His personal mission was over. This puts Mark 9:1 and Matthew 24:33-35 in context. It was about the age, not the end of the world. The destruction of the temple was a sign of that age coming to an end. Jesus closed out the first covenant and took the saints home like he promised. You can fill in the blanks from there. Everything has happened but the final judgment. I didn’t know what preterist was but I agree based on simple spiritual guidance and logic alone. Jesus was not talking to you on the mount. He was not talking to Christians 2,000 years later. Read it from the speakers perspective.

          • Emery

            Emily;
            Regardless of what twr has said, the term “antichrist” as used in the scriptures, does not refer to an individual. It refers to ALL who are in any opposed to Jesus, God, or either of their teachings. For example, to believe in a trinity is antichrist. To believe Jesus is his own father is antichrist. No single individual can be “the antichrist”.

            And no, Jesus didn’t die only for “old testament saints” either. Jesus died as a ransom for ALL, so that they MIGHT gain forgiveness, provided they repented, and prayed to God, in Jesus’ name, for such forgiveness.

            I am amazed at how very very little most on this blog know about what God’s word actually says. Truly, I am astounded at the lack of knowledge here. It doesn’t seem real somehow, but it’s here in black and white.

          • Emily

            TWR (follow-up to your note below) – I know Jesus came to die for my sins and I am eternally grateful. I want you to know that he died for yours as well, even if you don’t believe He did. Please know that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. There is a day coming soon where things will be in turmoil – He is only a prayer away to you.

            I have OT scripture that proves your view is incorrect about Jesus’ mission. In Isaiah 49:6, God the Father foretold that the Messiah’s mission was larger than saving the tribes of Jacob:

            “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

            The love of God is for all of us who believe on Him – the Light of the World. It gives me great joy to write this because it is absolutely true and the Spirit within me testifies to this.

            I’ll be praying for you!

  • Martus

    There are 3 raptures to go:

    Luke has Jesus coming back from His Wedding so the Christian Bride is in Heaven.

    Jesus is coming for the servants who He has put in charge of His other servants to feed the other servants with Knowledge (The 144000 witnesses).

    You will note also from the passage that His people are told to Watch and be ready also that those who are not ready will suffer the greater punishment(they will have to endure longer on Earth during the 7 year Tribulation.

    Jacob had 4 wives and these wives represent the 4 raptures, 2 were the main wives/raptures and 2 were servants to the main raptures/wives. Jesus is the servant of the Christian Bride and He has already being raptured with God’s people who were still caught up in Hades until the price for sin had been paid. The main Christian rapture has not occurred, the rapture of the Servant of Israel and lastly Messianic Israel at the end of the 7 years. Jacob had to work 7 years for the first wife(Christian Bride) and then 7 years for the Israel wife represented by Rachel, Christian should not the persecution of the Christian wife happens 7 years before the Israel wife. Destruction will come on the Christian nations 7 years followed by the destruction of Israel for 7 years. The 144000 males of Israel are sealed at the rapture of the Christian Bride and then are raptured 1260 days from the end of the 7 year Tribulation of Israel.

    Again another example of the 4 raptures is given in Leviticus where God told the priest before you harvest the Barley crop you must give the firstfruits to the priest to offer to God and then the Barley Harvest could be taken(Christians) and the same process was also for the wheat harvest which cam after the Barley Harvest. First the firstfruits of the Wheat Harvest was offered to God(144000 of Israel) and then the main harvest could be taken.

    Revelation tells us about a Woman whose Son(144000 witnesses) is snatched to Heaven then the woman is explained, she has the 12 stars the sun and the moon. From Joseph’s dream we know that the 12 star(Joseph being one) represent the 12 tribes of Israel, the Sun Joseph’s father, the moon Joseph’s mother and Israel is depicted as a woman so her Son would be from Israel which the 144000 males that come from the 12 Tribes of Israel.

    Apophis near Earth orbit on 13 April 2029 will be seen by the naked eye and scientist first predicted that it’s orbit would change after that and had a chance of hitting the Earth exactly 7 years later. I believe that this is the 7 year Tribulation period as not only does Apophis pass over(crashing) exactly on Passover on the 13 April 2036 (Note Moses was told to remember the Passover on a yearly basis and Daniel counts in groups of 7 years with one 7 year period to go after the time of the Gentiles is finished)Daniel tells us that before God’s kingdom comes a rock would smash and destroy the kingdoms of the world and also in Revelation it tells us a star will fall from Heaven and break the mantle causing a furnace on the Earth and later we are given the names of Appolyon and Abaddon which basically mean the same as Apophis and that is destroyer.

    Jesus’ death and Resurrection also points to around this time as Jesus was gone 2 days and on the 3rd day He was back. Passages teslls us the 1 day represents a 1000 years so if Jesus was crucified in 37A.D. then His return with those that have been raptured would be on April 13 2037 after the destruction of the ungodly had occurred and the Earth had been restored.

    • Ron

      Martus Quote:”Revelation tells us about a Woman whose Son(144000 witnesses) is snatched to Heaven then the woman is explained, she has the 12 stars”:End Quote

      Funny how you can understand the Plural for form for 12 stars and Turn The Singular form of Son to 144,000

      That singular Son is Jesus Christ

      4 Raptures? People just make up what they want anymore. There is only 1 Rapture.

      Those people were not in Hades they were in Paradise and they have been released from there after Christ’s Death and do

      not have Glorified Bodies yet.

      Your doctrine lacks, if you ask there are many who can show you the Truth here. I hope you are not like some here

      who have all the answers and Then Tramples Every Person Pearls Here Like The Swine They Are for everything that is said.

      Keep in Mind Martus which are you…..

      Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

      Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

      Proverbs 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

      Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

      Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. ( I’ve done that one)

      God Said It, that settles it.

  • Kim

    Rightly dividing the Word. Nice teaching Geoffrey. Have you seen this site http://www.rapturesolution.com

  • Marine

    I really enjoy this website. It is amazing to me that one person can read the Word of God, and then another read the same passage and get a different meaning from it. Maybe that’s why we are the body of Christ our Lord. I always liked the verse that Jesus gave us. love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength And to love your neighbor as yourself.

    • Emery

      Marine;
      Yes, it is amazing how one can say a scripture means this, and another says it means something different. That is for two reasons. The first, is that God’s word, the Bible, states that Satan has placed a veil over the meaning of God’s word. The second is that having no idea what it really says because of that veil, people “interpret” scripture, something God, in His inspired word, has forbidden. Interpreting scripture is nothing more than guessing at it’s meaning.

    • Ron

      Marine ( if you served, Thank You For Your Service! )

      God said that would be the sign the end is very near and that is “Apostasy Running Rampant”

      There are many who claim Christian, but inside they are empty void of God Holy Spirit and thus a great big

      C.I.N.O.

      Christian In Name Only.

      God Bless Marine!

    • That’s because some Christians rightly divide, and other don’t. When you rightly divide, as Paul commands in 2 Timothy 2:15, then you see quite clearly that the “great tribulation” is actually called the TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE….What was Jacob’s name changed to? Israel. So who is the focus of this time? The Jews and Israel. There is no Church involved anywhere in the Great Tribulation.

      • Ron

        Amen to that Geoffrey! Thanks for the instruction there I never mentally attempted to make the connection with the

        time of Jacobs trouble with the fact that God had changed his name to Israel, thus it proves it is the time of Israel’s

        trouble. Thanks again!

        God Bless!

        • The proof of the Pretrib is overwhelming when you examine the evidence. And yes, the fact that God calls it “Jacobs trouble” tells you that NONE of it is for the Church, which is why we are removed prior to it starting.

  • klaus

    The rapture has already begun. enoch was first,followed by elijah and then our Lord. The level of bickering amongst the brethren is astonishing. The Lord never commanded us to speculate anything. We are commanded to Watch and that is it. A rapture is coming. To think we will escape persecution is foolish. Prepare for it. Keep your minds and eyes on Christ. The enemy is very cunning. He is involved in this bickering.

    • jimmy

      @klaus

      There are hundreds of Christians who have ALREADY died without being physically persecuted for Christ. What “persecution” do you speak of?

    • Ron

      Klaus you are right and we haven’t to quote you:”To think we will escape persecution is foolish.”:End Quote

      No we haven’t escaped persecution, but it sounds like you are equating Revelation to a time of persecution, and it is, but

      it is also a time of Judgment and the Church will not be here for it.

      Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

      And if they were removed who did not have the same Righteousness like we have in Christ, how much more shall we be

      removed from a time and place of Judgment.

      God Bless You klaus!

  • Marine

    @ Ron , yes I enlisted at the age of 17. My heart breaks at seeing my My Heavenly Father being blasphemed every day on TV. And my country with millions of lives lost to keep our country strong and free. To see this President ruin our moral rights , and privileges that our fore fathers gave us. When Jesus reruns all things will be made right.

    • guest

      twr, I would love to hear your testimony of your salvation. When you got saved.

      • twr

        Guest,

        Eternal salvation is a lie from the pits of hell. Nobody is saved until it is over.

        Revelation 20:7-9King James Version (KJV)

        7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

        8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

        9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

        Even those who make it through the thousand years will turn. Can you believe that?

        Revelation 2:27King James Version (KJV)

        27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

        People will be broken because of the law. The same people on here who think it is foolish to follow the law, will not be able to handle it. Can you believe we are going to have to keep the Sabbath when the Messiah comes back? OMG! What are Christians going to do?

        Isaiah 66:23King James Version (KJV)

        23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

        Paul said it was a foreshadow of things to come. I’m so glad I keep the Sabbath now. I feel sorry for Christians. I don’t have a story guest. My step-father is a Baptist preacher. Church was all I knew since I was 12. My mom was a non-denominational pastor. I lost my oldest child and I started seeking truth. Everything we do seems to have a logical thought process except religion. There is never an analytical process to religion. We see the words of the book from our own desires. I’m free from that because I keep the commandments. I don’t rely on or create doctrine. In the new covenant, God wrote those very same laws he gave Israel in our inward parts (Jeremiah 31:31-33). Only deception keeps us from understanding. When he that lets moves out of the way, he will discover the man of sin. I don’t have a story. I strive like Paul to die daily to sin. I wouldn’t know sin if not for the law. Faith does not make void the law (Romans 3:31). I’m only here to save that which is lost in strong delusion.

        • Your “theology” flies in the face of Pauline doctrine:

          Salvation happens here and now: “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:30,31 (KJV)
          Born Again Believers Eternally Secure: “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)

          • twr

            Geoffrey,

            Is Paul your Messiah? Your comprehension of Pauline doctrine flies in the face of everything the true Messiah taught.

            Matthew 19:17-19King James Version (KJV)

            17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

            18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

            19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

            My brother, believe is a verb. It does not mean have belief in the existence of. It is meant to evoke a response, which is keeping the commandments, including the Sabbath. I used to believe Santa put presents under my tree. I’m quite sure that is not what brother Paul meant by believe. When you believe, there is no sin. You may sin as all humans do, but you fight to correct your deficiency. If you understand brother Paul, he did not know sin until the law. How can you know sin if it is not in your heart to follow the law? The crazy thing is a spiritual guy like you probably follows the law, for the most part. You have probably made it your goal in life to keep the nine commandments. If you break number four, you break them all.

        • Ron

          Twr May The Lord give you Judgment that is deserving of your very

          deception and mistruths used in your false doctrine.

      • Ron

        guest He doesn’t have one. For if he were saved he would, so one cannot hear what is not there. Great Question!

        God Bless You guest!

        • twr

          Ron,

          Don’t believe in the false doctrine of eternal salvation. You are saved when you are saved. I already know that you are not saved because of the gentile requirements.

          Isaiah 56:6-7King James Version (KJV)

          6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

          7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

          You think God’s word is a joke and you can selectively pick and choose verses that suit you. All I’m saying is that is his word and it does not change. I keep the Sabbath. Break one, break them all. Worry about your salvation. If there was a rapture today, lawless Christians would be scratching their heads.

        • guest

          I expected as much that’s why I ask him.

          God bless you also!

          See you at supper!

      • Guest,
        Your question speaks to the main issue. For unless a man is born again he shall not see the kingdom of God. TWR is not, so he can not understand the scriptures.
        Blessings:-}

    • Ron

      Marine I also enlisted at 17, except in the Navy. And believe it or not I always admired ( since base was guarded by them )

      How professional they always were with such a military bearing, and how sharp you all looked in your uniforms.

      And as far as sailors who didn’t like Marine’s got a big surprise when I was around ( I was a Chief, and the surprise was

      best when I was in civvies ) and asked them if they would like to go on report.

      I agree with all you said, and it is so sad to see the country I once defended in a downward spiral.

      ( I don’t know if a navy guy is allowed to say that or not? )Semper Fi! And you are I am sure of that!

      God Bless You Marine!

  • CHAR

    TWR, yeah okay, whatever…..I skimmed over your long, wordy comment, but I got the gist of it, that you don’t believe in the rapture or the tribulation and that Paul is rambling. Poor you! Paul was one of the greatest Christians in the N.T. Thank God for his salvation and his writings. We have learned a LOT from Paul. Too bad you can’t or won’t. The Holy Spirit is waiting for you as he speaks softly to you. I hope you take him up on his offer before it’s too late. That pre-tribulation you don’t believe in is going to be horrific to go through.

    • twr

      CHAR,

      You should have done more than skimmed. There was information in my wordy comment that far outweighs the virtue of a non-existent rapture. Paul was a great Israelite who never broke God’s law, even after the resurrection. Paul was not a Christian. Just because someone mistakenly called them Christians doesn’t mean they wore it. Would you if you were God’s chosen? Even as the end approaches, it is all about Israel, genetic or grafted. Christianity is paganism. Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays God told us not to observe (Jeremiah 10:2-4). Paul rambled on advice from God. He just didn’t come out and say do this. Its almost as if you have a choice. I understand Paul, unlike those on this site. I understand the difference between the ordinances in the law that were abolished and the law itself. Like I stated, believing in the rpture is for those who don’t keep God’s commandments. It is a strong delusion sent from God himself. What God requires from us did not change from covenant to covenant. God does not change. It just became voluntary, depending on how much you love him. If we have to stand judgment for all the good and bad, how can your sins be forgiven? If you know you are accountable for every last sin, might want to study the commandments and see what sin is. If you are sinning without knowing you are sinning, it wouldn’t matter if there was a rapture. If you don’t keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19) you wouldn’t be raptured anyway. Keeping the Sabbath on the day God sanctified is a commandment. He didn’t change. If you break one commandment, you break them all. You could keep all 9 commandments perfectly and still miss the kingdom. Why worry about a rapture?

  • CHAR

    TWR, yeah, talk about rambling, but I won’t name names. Anyway, I’m not here to ARGUE or DISPUTE your misguided beliefs, I’m just waiting for that day that the Lord says “Come up Hither” I hope you hear it too. You say the rapture is a strong delusion sent by God himself? Wow, okay, whatever……hope to see you in the air, TWR. I wonder how many delusional JW’s will be there…..hmmmmmm. You just keep living your life by the law and not by grace if that’s what you think you have to do to be a good JW. I actually feel sorry for you and all your JW friends and cohorts. It’s too bad you have had it so deeply hammered into your head that you can’t see the forest for the trees, but I will pray that you will see the Light before you see the darkness. I hope my comment doesn’t sound flippant to you because this is a very serious subject and I hope and pray that you will truly read the Word and come to the Lord! God Bless you, TWR!

    • twr

      CHAR,

      Let’s clarify something. I don’t know where you get the JW reference, but I am E1B1A. If you don’t understand that, look it up. That means I am what everyone else wants to be (Israel). I won’t see you in the air. If you in the air, you will be going somewhere I choose not to go.

      2 Timothy 4:3-4King James Version (KJV)
      3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      You don’t sound flippant. You sound like a person with strong delusion that believes in fairy tales.

      Ezekiel 13:20King James Version (KJV)
      20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

      This means your rapture doctrine is designed to keep you from understanding the true nature of salvation. God will impart his understanding to those who listen and let them know there will be no flying away.

      • Dan

        CHAR, this is our guest twr’s FB page. https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=the%20lion%20of%20judah He had the pic

        of a black lion as his page moniker but this was a few months ago.

        Oddly enough I ridiculed him over this a few months ago and oddly enough it is gone now (laugh) Good move twr!

        twr apparently is a young black male who identifies himself with the Ethiopian Jews and who fancies himself a teacher.

        His teachings are from a man who is Jewish and who teaches the same misguided material twr would have us believe is

        the true way to GOD.

        It took a full week of ignoring twr before he finally left. How long will it take this time?

        • twr

          Dan,

          Just like I told Ron. Your little click of spiritual kindergartners are taking this way too far and personal. You act like playground protectors running around with rusty dull blades called doctrine. This double edge is eating your lunch. How old are you; 2? Here is his facebook page. I ridiculed him. Please! My page is still there growing strong with the same moniker (laugh). Yes, I am a black man if that makes a difference. I’m also a highly decorated, retired 20 year disabled combat veteran. Anything else you need to fish for? I don’t identify with of fancy myself as anything but what I am. I have one teacher and that is the Messiah. I’m a doer of the word and not just a hearer. I spread knowledge to those who listen. You call yourselves Christians? This is why the world is so screwed up today. Is this what Christ is like? That’s why there is apostasy and so many people walking away from the church. It’s people like you who form up and exclude anyone who does not share your strong delusion. Ignore me. I don’t come on here to talk to you or any of your click. If I should happen to message in the future and some real Christians want to engage, fine? If not, I’m still going to speak my mind. Satan doesn’t want you liberated. That’s why he created doctrine. I’m free and loving it (mic drop).

          • dan

            Nope twr your moniker was an internet hoax ( A black colored lion) which there are none in the wild.

            I posted that you using this fake picture was GOD allowing you to unwittingly show your true colors(no pun intended)

            well, maybe a little pun!

          • dan

            I forgot to add this. I only make the comment that you are black to go with your obvious statement with

            the black lion moniker. Hey, you’re the one who’s making the statement I’m only pointing out what

            you obviously want everyone to know.

    • Ron

      Well said Char!

  • Eddie

    I looked up E1B1A. If you believe that nonsense then I agree you want be in the air. Sad, so sad. Just remember when you lift up your eyes in the day you leave this world your own words ” If you in the air, you will be going somewhere I choose not to go.”

    • twr

      Eddie,

      I know. Science and DNA is a joke. I see people getting out of prison after years of being falsely accused because of what we know about DNA. Keep your false hopes. Pretty crappy to try to shoot down someone’s heritage. Haters have a job to do. Feel free. Like I told Char, I’m well aware of gentile salvation. You must meet the requirements first.

      Isaiah 56:6-7King James Version (KJV)

      6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

      7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

      Not my words. I’m just saying. Unless you take God to be a joke, he has spoken. In case you are one of those who believe he changed with the new covenant:

      Malachi 3:6King James Version (KJV)
      6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

      God is always looking out for Jacob. He wouldn’t want to change things up after telling Jacob one thing for 2,000 years. He likes to keep the same plan. If Jacob thought they didn’t need to follow the law anymore that would be a disaster. God just reminded us that he doesn’t change and his requirements have not changed for those who love him.

      • jimmy

        @twr

        I looked up E1B1A and it means weirdo. Thanks for reminding us that all clowns aren’t in the circus.

        • twr

          Jimmy,

          If you had close to an ounce of credibility as a theologian, I might be offended. I have seen your posts, so I’ll take it as a joke. DNA is being used today in order to allow Israelites to return to the occupied country that is rightfully theirs. I think you would have a more promising career in the circus than the ministry. Anytime you want to engage in the merits of what you believe versus what I know, I will be here.

          http://jlb.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/16/jlb.lsv027.full

        • Ron

          ROFL!!!! jimmy you’re busting my gut!

          Some are named Zipper too! LOL!

          • twr

            Ron,

            Be careful. Jimmy may come to a sudden halt. Wouldn’t want to lose you before the rapture.

  • twr

    Ron,

    I could care less about anything you say. All you have is your opinion. Everybody has one. As far as Jimmy, what does a pastor mean? Both of my parents have been pastors since I was twelve. I tell my father the same thing I tell you. I respect truth and Jimmy can’t spell it.

    Luke 6:39King James Version (KJV)
    39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

    You and Jimmy will be in the same ditch. You told someone everything you said was scriptural. There is nothing I have said that was not a direct quote. It doesn’t matter if you have a comprehension issue. What does Ron stand for? Remedial or nincompoop? What is the purpose of repenting? Sin! Sin is transgression of the law. Do you keep the Sabbath? Break one, break them all. I have no problem repenting, but it won’t be for keeping the commandments or telling the truth.

  • twr

    Emery,

    I totally agree. Ron or anyone who thinks like Ron will never see the kingdom.

    • Ron

      twr and Emery! The very judgment you claim against me and My Fellow Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ is what will in

      fact fall upon you both.

      At The Rapture you will be here and believe the lie that will be your judgment.

      • twr

        Ron,

        I’m not worried because I keep God’s commandments. If there was a such thing as a rapture, I would go before you. You and all your brothers and sisters who believe all your sins are forgiven, even though the bible clearly says that is not the case, are the ones who are praying for rapture. You don’t want to keep Jacob’s laws, you don’t want Jacob’s trouble, you just want Jacob’s promise. You want to fly away before it gets to hot just because you called yourself Christian. Good luck with that.

        • We do not inherit Jacob’s trouble or his promises, they are for the Jews alone. And when you tell people that our sins are not forgiven, you are a liar.

          “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;” Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)

          • twr

            Geoffrey,

            I would never call anyone a liar. You are just not comprehending. In order to comprehend you must get out of your feelings and analyze the mission of Jesus. Jesus came unto his own and all his own that received him were given an opportunity to become sons of God.

            Matthew 18:11King James Version (KJV)
            11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

            Matthew 15:24King James Version (KJV)
            24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

            I know what you think Paul said, but listen to why Jesus said he gave his life. He does not say he came to die for the sins of the world.

            Matthew 20:28King James Version (KJV)
            28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

            Who were the many Jesus gave his life for? First testament saints, period.

            Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)
            15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

            Jeremiah 50:20King James Version (KJV)
            20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

            Israel and Judah. It doesn’t say anything about New Testament Israelites or Christians. Paul’s audience at that particular time has not been identified. Just because he was apostle to gentiles doesn’t mean he never conversed with his own.

            2 Corinthians 5:10King James Version (KJV)
            10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

            Common sense tells you if we all have to stand judgment for everything right and wrong, how could all of our sins be forgiven? What would be the purpose of judgment?

            Did God name Jacob Jew or Israel? There are still 12 tribes out there somewhere, scattered all over the globe. Jacob’s trouble is for Israel.

          • You are confusing SALVATION with SANCTIFICATION because no one ever taught you BIble doctrine. The Judgment Seat of Christ is not a judgement on sin, only saved people are there. It is a judgment on the works you did for the Lord after you got saved.

            A BIBLE BELIEVER LOOKS AT FAITH, WORKS AND THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST:
            http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/a-bible-believer-looks-at-faith-works-and-the-judgment-seat-of-christ/

          • twr

            Geoffrey,

            My father has pastored a church since I was 12. I’m 51. I have had enough doctrine.

            Romans 2:6King James Version (KJV)
            6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

            Is that every man or shall I just assume every means only saved?

          • Render every man according to his deeds:

            The deeds of the unsaved result in the White Throne Judgment: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Revelation 20:11,12 (KJV)

            The deeds of saved judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” 2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV)

      • Emery

        Ron;
        So essentially you are threatening me because I’ve posted what the scriptures say? Now THAT’S nonsense Ron. AND, I have NEVER “judged” you in any way, ever. I don’t judge ANYONE, ever. And Ron, if you’re waiting for a “rapture”, you’re going to be waiting for a LONG TIME, since no rapture will ever occur. I believe ONLY what God’s inspired word says and teaches. And you are claiming that God’s word is a lie. Amazing. Unbelievable. But you’re not the first one to ever say God lies, and you’re not the first one to gullibly fall for the lies of false religions. In fact, BILLIONS fall for their lies. God’s word warns us against such lies from false religion and from false teachers. With that VERY CLEAR warning, it’s surprising that so many are so gullible as to fall for Satan’s misleading efforts. ALL religions are Satan’s most effective method of “misleading the entire inhabited Earth”. The second most effective method, is to veil the meaning of the scriptures, and the third most effective method is to inspire people to create false translations of God’s word. The KJV is the premier false translation. It even seeks to ELIMINATE God’s personal name. But, it DOES say
        Psalm 83:18
        That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

        God’s personal name appears 7,210 times in the ancient texts from which the Bibles are translated, and in the KJV, it only appears four times. It also says Isaiah 12:2
        Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

        Yes, the KJV DOES say that. It’s copied and pasted directly from the KJV Bible. But, what happened to the other 7,206 occurrences of God’s name? Me thinks the dishonest King James the First doesn’t want anyone to know God’s name. The very name God COMMANDS us to use constantly in prayer to Him, when we pray in Jesus His son’s name.

        So, no, sorry, there will be no rapture, and no judgement for posting God’s inspired word Ron. That’s just a rediculous postulation on your part. Absolutely absurd. I don’t know what this twr person posted, but no, I don’t judge. I teach. I plant the seeds that God makes grow, if it doesn’t land on rocks. It seems that you are a rock Ron.

        • Ron

          Emery May The Lord give you Judgment that is deserving of your very deception and mistruths used in your false

          doctrine.

          You know Pete and I may get into arguments here but he is a million times smarter than you two for even he would

          not make an accusation like that!

          I suppose you’ll be saying something like twr said in his post to CHAR about me?:

          twr Quote:”I’m not obnoxious and argumentative. I just tell you what the word say. If the demon in you is offended, my apologies.”:End Quote

          how dare twr or you say that about CHAR? Birds of a feather flock together I guess.

          • Emery

            Now Ron, asking God to perform evil upon someone is a SIN. It is disobeying Him. And claiming that the scriptural truths I post are deception and mistruths is to INSULT God. Claiming the doctrine contained in His inspired word is false is to call God a LIAR. I have made NO accusations either. Not even one Ron. YOU, however, are making MANY accusations in your post above. And claiming someone is smarter than another is also to disobey God. We are NOT to compare eachother, according to God. This makes no difference, apparently, to you though. It would probably be best if you actually KNEW what God’s word says, before you make claims about the same. You make accusations about me that have NO BASIS in fact Ron. NONE AT ALL. You’re INVENTING them. Is that honest? Is that Christlike? Would Jesus have behaved as you or Char behave? Things to think about Ron.

          • twr

            Ron,

            I like the site. Every now and then I post an opinion. It may not agree with your doctrine. What I have found out is the bible doesn’t agree with much Christian doctrine. I don’t have anything against anyone on here. I don’t know any of you. From your gang mentality and rhetoric, I don’t think I want to know many of you. It’s not personal. For a few of you on here, this is too personal. Char, who I don’t know starts calling people demons and prompting Geoffrey to get rid of these clowns, I believe you are overstepping any boundaries that should exist on a public site. Like I stated, I’m not obnoxious or rude. I’m not on every post. I put out an opinion here and there and usually only engage who engages me. When I post ANYTHING it is so well thought out, researched and spirit blessed that if you or anyone chooses to engage me, you better leave the doctrine and personal opinion at home or get embarrassed. That is all that has happened is a few of you have been embarrassed and got your feelings hurt because you though you knew the word. Grow up people. I see this click with Dan, Char, Edwitness and a few others acting like some playground bullies. You can’t take my lunch money with that dull one-sided blade you call doctrine. That’s what this is all about (mic drop).

          • Ron

            Again you leave no option to reply .

            Aren’t you and twr buddies in the same religion?????????????

            And quote twr:“Emery,”

            “I totally agree. Ron or anyone who thinks like Ron will never see the kingdom.”

            If I don’t know God as you claim and don’t know the scriptures how come you never corrected twr for all his vile statements he has

            made here??????? twr said Char had a demon why didn’t go after him too?????????

            May you both wallow in your own hypocrisy! You two are like an uncurable disease it just keeps coming back.

          • Ron

            Again twr you make a statement that you have some sort of entitlement here.

            you make the ASSININE statement twr Quote: “I believe you are overstepping any boundaries that should exist on a public site.”

            This may be available for public viewing but this site is “PRIVATELY OWNED” BY GEOFFREY GRIDER

            and like myself, so are you a guest here and Geoffrey reserves the right to block you or me anytime he wants.

            I will say what I feel The Lord will have me say.

            In case you haven’t figured it out we have Freedom of Speech in this country.

          • Emery

            Ron;
            twr is most likely correct about you seeing the Kingdom. Jesus taught that we must obey ALL of God’s commands. Any command from Jesus actually came from his Father in heaven. Jesus said he did nothing of his own originality, but that of the One that sent him. Jesus’ teachings about speaking civilly to eachother, and about forgiving infinitaly your brothers and about putting up with one another even if you have a reason to have something against anyone. You completely ignore all those teachings Ron. You do NOT act Christlike. You don’t use the Christ as your example regarding how to behave and act and speak. I don’t know who you use as an example, but it is NOT Jesus. And YES, you DO exceed all boundaries of behavior on a PUBLIC SITE. Big deal it’s “privately” OWNED, but it’s a PUBLIC site Ron. PUBLIC. Even though Geoffrey doesn’t obey his OWN terms of use. Even though he CENSORS his posters if they don’t agree with him. NO, he DOESN’T have any right to block anyone for any reason. ONLY for the stated reasons in his terms of use. AND HE VIOLATES THEM INCESSANTLY. God’s word states that people won’t be open to ANY agreements, and having an APPEARANCE of Godliness, but PROVING FALSE to it’s power. You certainly fit that description, and Geoffrey’s behavior fits it as well. I detest dishonesty and self righteousness. I don’t detest the person, but I do detest the acts. But, God does detest the liar, the wicked person, the dishonest person, and anyone who disobeys Him. His own inspired word states that pretty clearly. Jesus said a pretty profound thing in John 15:18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you
            And YOU display quite a bit of hate. Geoffrey does also. I read many posts of his that indicate horrible and persecutorial behavior, and completely UNCHRISTIAN behavior. Pretending to be Christian is an insult to God. Insulting God can render one nothing but destruction. Just because it doesn’t happen right now, doesn’t mean it’s not right around the corner. The end of the end is VERY close guys.

            Of course, the admin won’t post this comment either, because they DON’T honor their own terms of use, quite dishonestly.

          • Emery

            Ron;
            I quote your post:
            Ron
            23 May 2016 at 10:16 pm

            Again twr you make a statement that you have some sort of entitlement here.

            you make the ASSININE statement twr Quote: “I believe you are overstepping any boundaries that should exist on a public site.”

            This may be available for public viewing but this site is “PRIVATELY OWNED” BY GEOFFREY GRIDER

            and like myself, so are you a guest here and Geoffrey reserves the right to block you or me anytime he wants.

            I will say what I feel The Lord will have me say.

            In case you haven’t figured it out we have Freedom of Speech in this country.

            Oh no we don’t, not on NTEB we don’t have “freedom of speech”. Geoffrey seems to think this is communist China or North Korea where he can CENSOR whatever he wants, in violation of his terms of use. No Ron, privately owned doesn’t mean private site. Are you out of your teens yet?

            Admin: I hope you’re printing all of these for Geoffrey. I know you are dishonestly not posting them, but you SHOULD give them to the guy who is violating his own agreement.

    • Ron

      The very judgment you claim against me and My Fellow Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ is what will in

      fact fall upon you both. Like Char said about you and emery.

      • Dan

        mic drop? And you’re 51 ? twr, when you can no longer defend what you’re saying ; you stop replying. That

        is how you operate. You’ve done it more than once with me and I’ve seen you do it with others including Geoff.

        You are your biggest fan and what is clear to see is your vanity keeps you here because you impress yourself.

        You are literally the king standing before us with no clothes on.(Laughing)

  • twr

    Salt+Light,

    You say it was about transfiguration. Two other people said it was about John and his vision. This has nothing to do with Mark 9:1. You have to piece it together. Understand the mission of Jesus. He came and died only for Israel under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15). He was closing out the age and taking the O.T. saints home. Your theory is shot down by what he says to the Pharisees.

    Luke 17:20-21King James Version (KJV)
    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Analysis of the mission of Jesus compared with Mark 9:1 and Matthew 24:33-35 says he is closing out the age. There is no end time age. Those signs, including the destruction of the temple were for that generation. Jesus was not talking to you thru the disciples. He was talking to them. He did not say whatever generation sees these signs. He said when you see these signs the kingdom is near. He constantly preached the kingdom was at hand. C’mon. When does at hand mean 2,000 years later. All of you want to live in this fantasy so bad you can’t even see little things that make sense. If you were doing a book report on something totally inconsequential you would have a totally different outlook.

  • twr

    Emery,

    You said a few things right, then you had to get delusional. Hebrew 9:15 tells you exactly why Jesus ransomed his life. That is no longer up for discussion.

    Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)
    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    I hate in when people don’t just read and comprehend but tell you that you are wrong.

    Jeremiah 50:20King James Version (KJV)

    20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

    2 Corinthians 5:10King James Version (KJV)

    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    If he forgave all your sins why are we standing judgment? Shouldn’t it be pass fail? You will pay for every sin you committed in the body. I hope I don’t have to repeat this again. Old testament saints. Got it?

    • Emery

      twr;
      Thanks. But no, I have never gotten “delusional” ever. I’ve spent an entire lifetime studying Bibles, 38 English translations, and ancient texts from ancient Hebrew and ancient Koine Greek. That was college in the 70’s. I’ve never stopped doing that. I study God’s inspired word for what it ACTUALLY says, and study it daily. I study each word minimum twice a year, comparing each scripture to each scripture. That’s the only way to see if what I think a scripture says, is accurate or not. If it agrees with all other scriptures, I’ve got it. If it doesn’t, then I need to adjust what I think it says. I also study with some of the remnant of the annointed 144,000. They are Jesus’ slaves, and do have much more insight than the average person. Sorry to say, that everything I’ve posted is EXACTLY what God’s word saya and means. God is the only one who can help us understand His inspired word. He uses His spirit to help us. This He does to those in whom He finds an honest heart, and an honest hearted desire to know Him and His word. Satan has veiled the meaning of the scriptures from the unbelievers. According to His word, anyone who is part of a religion is such an unbeliever, with very few exceptions. There DO exist honest hearted people in religions of Christendom, but very few. Christendom’s religions ALL teach their own doctrine, and NONE teach the same as any other religion. And NONE teach what Jesus taught, when he taught his apostles and disciples the “one true faith”. He started no religion, he started the one true faith. No church, no clergy, no tradition, no words of men, ONLY the word of his Father, God the Almighty. It’s very frustrating conversing with people from whom the understanding of God’s word is hidden by Satan. They ALL think they’ve got “it”, when none really do. They misunderstand even the most BASIC teachings in God’s word. Nothing anyone can do can pierce through that veil of Satan’s. Try though we might, it just cannot be done. But sometimes, you run into one who has changed, and who honestly wants to know ACCURATELY what God teaches, and who wants to know God and worship Him as God commands us to do. The WAY He commands us to worship Him. It is to find those very few that I work so hard. The end of this system of things is VERY close at hand. Times ALMOST up. When God says that’s it, then that’s it. So,no, I don’t get “delusional” and I don’t post ANYTHING that isn’t completely accurate. It’s my job, and my life also depends on it. I HAVE to be accurate. God commanded us to be accurate.

      • twr

        Emery,

        You make a lot of sense and are very credible on most of what you say. May delusional was strong. Hebrews 9:15 tells us why the Messiah died. That’s all I’m saying. Purpose for coming, interaction, his words and actions match Hebrews 9:15. He didn’t die for sins that had not been committed. As long as people believe that, there will never be any accountability. All my sins are forgiven plus we don’t have to follow the law equal Serapis, not Yeshua.

        • Phil

          twr,

          You said following above:

          “Hebrews 9:15 tells us why the Messiah died. That’s all I’m saying. Purpose for coming, interaction, his words and actions match Hebrews 9:15. He didn’t die for sins that had not been committed.”

          “15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”

          This in no way limits the atonement accomplished at the crucifixion to the sins of Old Testament saints. The efficacy of the work of Christ is explained in the last three verses of the same chapter:

          “26 ……but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
          27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
          28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

          “to put away sin” means all sin. 1 John 2:2 is even more to the point:

          “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

          Hebrews 9 is explaining that the rituals sacrifices and offerings were only temporal measures until the real thing happened. The sins of OT believers were only covered…passed over. That is why every believer from Adam on was sequestered in sheol until the resurrection of the Lord.

          There is a lot to this study, but I’m hesitant to waste my time if you are just slap things you don’t like off the table.

          • TWR

            Phil,

            Sin and transgressions are two different concepts.

          • Ron

            I agree with all you said except for one word in the one sentence “That is why every believer from Adam on was sequestered in

            sheol until the resurrection of the Lord.

            It was not sheol it was Paradise and it was in view of hell separated by the great abyss ( I wonder if that is the bottomless pit? )

            And Jesus Verifies this by the following statements.

            Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

            Because when Jesus Died where did He spend the next 3 days?

            Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

            Ans you are right Phil they were sequestered here, and Paradise is now empty but is in sight of Hell to remind the wicked the error

            of their of their ways and what they could have had. Seeing it is also a form of punishment for those in Hell.

            God Bless You Phil!

  • CHAR

    Hi Ron, you’re so gracious to keep going on with TWR and Emery. They need to hold hands and skip on down the wide road that they will be on when the Lord calls us home. I kinda think they aren’t JW or SDA or E1BS or whatever that was, they’re just plain, old demon possessed and want to keep arguing with all the believers on this website.

    Geoffrey, when are you going to get enough of these two clowns and get rid of them? They can go wreak havoc on some other website. They surely aren’t on this one to learn anything. They only want to call people names and argue with them, which is not a very sweet Spirit.

    We need to ALL stop responding to these two characters and correspond with those who actually want to learn and have fellowship with one another instead of them using us for a punching bag. Go away you two. NOBODY WANTS TO CORRESPOND WITH YOU ANYMORE. You are a waste of time since you won’t listen. Jesus wouldn’t have spent half the time we have trying to get these two characters to understand the Word. God Bless!

    • twr

      CHAR,

      I haven’t called anyone names. If I’m demon possessed, I still know more about the true word of God than you ever will. This is Geoffrey’s site. Second person tonight that is calling for him to get rid of someone. Is someone making you read what I write? There is nothing wrong with pleasant discourse. As you can see, there are no experts when it comes to religion. I use the word. If someone shows me where I am wrong, I won’t continue like most of you. I don’t make up my own doctrine. If nobody wants to respond, that’s fine. I get stronger in my discernment when I talk to closed minded, misguided individuals like you. You can tell the really frustrated and defeated when they write Geoff. Please get them off. Their truth is ruining my delusion. Who are you? Are you the group spokesperson? We should be here to learn from one another.

      Matthew 23:8King James Version (KJV)
      8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

      I’m not obnoxious and argumentative. I just tell you what the word say. If the demon in you is offended, my apologies.

      • dan

        No, but you were last time you were here twr. In fact, you made the mistake of saying you would not talk to some

        of us but of course, you soon broke the promise by talking to the very ones you claimed you would not talk to.

        But soon you realized you were making a fool of yourself so you stopped. You’re 51 I had you pegged for much

        younger hmmm. You’ll only get the same twr as last time, so your vanity must be your reason for further discourse

        with us. CHAR’s desire for you to leave I assure you is the same for me and all the rest of us here but

        to Geoff’s credit maybe he allows the likes of you to sharpen our knowledge of true doctrine as opposed to false

        doctrine. I have to admit I’ve had to pull my bible out more than once to realize what you’ve said is wrong.

        You have a bad habit of getting your meaning from just part of a passage rather than the whole passage.

        I have to admit it make me smile after finding out you did this yet again. This is why I thought you were younger

        because these are simple mistakes and you should know better.

        • TWR

          Dan,

          I read NTEB articles. I post my thoughts on articles. I never scroll thru comments or look at responses unless TWR is in the headline. I kept my word. If someone wants to engage, I will not shy away. I haven’t made a fool of myself and not one of you has scripturally proven one word I have said to be wrong. You haven’t, you can’t and you never will because it is not my word. I don’t care if you want me to leave. Who is the rest of us. There are 5 or 6 misguided souls who don’t possess an original thought or revelation outside of doctrine. Know better? Who do you think you are? I speak my mind. Maybe it’s not the age, maybe it was those combat tours, bullets and mortars flying that won’t allow me to knuckle down to some internet Pharisees.

    • Ron

      Does this remind you of someone I am done with …..

      John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

      ** Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.**

      God Bless You CHAR

  • Marine

    Ron, thank you for your kind words. I am truly humbled. I always envied yinz guys cause you have awesome chow halls . You also were allowed to grow hair HaHa. if we all lived like What Jesus told us nobody would want for anything. What an awesome world this would be. God Bless

  • Marine

    Ron , thank you for your service. I am truly humbled by your kind words. I always envied the sailors. Their chow hall was awesome and yinz were able to grow hair HaHa. If we lived like Jesus told us to live, nobody would want for anything. How simplistic but yet impossible . God bless you and yours Ron

  • Marine

    Ron, thank you for your kind words, I am truly humbled by them. I always envied yinz for your chow hall and you were alowed to grow hair HaHa. Thank you for your service. Wouldn’t be nice if we all lived like Jesus told us to live? No one would want for anything. Gold Bless you and yours Ron

    • Ron

      God Bless You Marine!

  • Marine

    Typo. God Bless you and yours Ron

  • CHAR

    Dan, thank you for the info on TWR. He’s one confused fella, for sure. I prayed for him last night and the Lord has told me to let it go and dust my feet off. Everyone that’s replied to him has tried to get him to see the error of his beliefs, but he won’t have it, so he will have to live and unfortunately die in his misguided beliefs if he doesn’t change. Thanks again and God Bless! Emery is also a tick under the skin, but I will NOT respond to him again either. They both enjoy the banter, but don’t seem to take in the information given to them by everyone.

    • twr

      CHAR

      Who are you? What are your credentials or anyone else on here to challenge my beliefs. Show me in scripture, not doctrine. Until then, it is you and your friends who error. I don’t care about you responding. You didn’t say anything worthwhile when you did. Emery has said a lot of credible things in what I did read. This is typical Satan 101. The people with the truth are ganged up on my the delusional who thibk they know the truth. You internet Pharisee need to chill out and let people speak their piece. Are you scared somebody is going to change your belief. Remember the wheat and the tare. You can’t change a tare into wheat. Nobody can change what you believe it if was not meant to be.

    • DC

      It’s gotten so bad to the point of ridiculous. I know I’ve seen this movie before. “Prophet 1” and “Prophet 2” (with apologies to Dr. Seuss) post these long diatribes with all their “divine knowledge” b/c they have 35 and 45 years, respectfully of studying the Word. (Oh, I’m so impressed and may I bow down and kiss your feet?) Then when someone tries to call them on it, even Pastor Geoffrey, they completely ignore it and set out to prove how wrong everyone is. They only send out their view and don’t even consider someone else’s interpretation. That’s Tunnel Vision and a PROUD SPIRIT. (It’s just like DB, who on anything LGBT posts the same quotes, articles, and argument about the abominations in the bible OVER & OVER and NEVER admits someone made a good point with scripture to back it up. There is no humility or repentance.) I do skip over it for the most part, but when they write so much of it in all caps—SHOUTING—your eyes sometime catch it. (Also, I want to defend my friends who are good, Godly people only wanting to help, only to be mocked, yet should we be surprised in these Last Days?) It’s like a traffic accident; you just can’t look away sometimes!

      To say Ron’s not going to see heaven or that you have a demon or that our Christianity is ALL WRONG and Christ really didn’t come to save us….I just want God to set them straight, show them the truth in spite of SUCH ARROGANCE. Those who “teach”–and I use that loosely–are going to be held to a higher standard than us mere mortals, so if they are teaching false things, it WILL get ugly. I am praying for their eyes to be open before they get their comeuppance.

      Also, I really think someone who isn’t strong yet in the Christian faith can be very confused, which is how sometimes people get sucked into cults, and that’s what these are. I think I’m a pretty good authority on that, having been raised Catholic and the things I’ve shared about family on that. They are worshiping the created—in this case their religion—more than the Creator, and they are accusing Christians of being wrapped up in religion? P1 things only 144,000 will be saved and P2 thinks Jesus only came to save the OT people and everything Revelation says already happened–although the regathering of Israel in 1948 is an unfortunate contradiction….

      I have felt some righteous anger over it but now I just feel pity. If they were really filled with the Holy Spirit, they wouldn’t be so filled up with themselves and show some kindness to those who actually care enough to share the Truth with them. Nope; it’s always a chastisement on how wrong we are and how superior they are, and they don’t even see it. One of the things God HATES is haughtiness, but in their selective use of scripture, guess they missed that one. (Prov 6:16-19.) Never just a quick comment about an article; always a lecture and arguing for arguments’ sake. Geoff did write, however, in the article about the Mormons, I think, how these kinds of people are prepared for all argument and have a “smart” back-atcha answer used to confuse, so I know better than to argue back and forth. You can’t move a stone….

      • twr

        DC,

        No rebuttal required.

        Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)

        15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

        God named Jacob Israel, not the land. Restoration of the nation means her people. When her people are restored, you will know.

        Zephaniah 3:18-20King James Version (KJV)

        18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.

        19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

        20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.

        When God gathers the Israelites from the four corners, there will be no doubt.

        God bless

        • Emery

          twr;
          There existed NO new testament when the new testament was written. It wasn’t a Bible then, it was lambskin or goatskin scrolls. Not a book. So the Hebrews 9:15 KJV translation CANNOT be an accurate translation. The ancient texts use a word that translates to “of covenant”. NOT a word that translates to new testament. διαθήκης did not translate to anything but covanant, and the KJV scripture translation renders it as new testament. Do you see a problem here? It’s VERY MISLEADING to change any word of any sentence. It changes the entire meaning of the sentence. This is why I don’t use the KJV or ANY translation even remotely like it. When I question a scripture, I ALWAYS go to the ancient texts and translate it to English on my own. THEN I can determine what was intended.

        • Martin

          twr;
          The ancient texts existent in John 9:15 do not say what it says in the KJV. It uses a word that only translates to New Covenant, not New Testament.

  • DC

    *thinks.
    Now watch for the big, “I never said….” rebuttal, then insults and condemnation, of which I won’t answer. Never an apology for coming off in such a distasteful way.

  • CHAR

    DC, I’m with you all the way! You speak truth, girlfriend. I refuse to comment after seeming to be talking to a wall. Expect that you are going to get chastised by them now, but like myself, I just (sometimes) read their comments and delete, delete, delete. Blessings to you! Maybe some day they will come back on this post and let us know that they have found the true Savior and are sorry for their misguided and tyrannical comments of the past! Well hopefully!

    Dan, you are funny! Or should I say punny!

  • CHAR

    DC, I sent a comment to you, but it came up Duplicate, so we may get it twice, but this is what I said:

    You speak the truth, girlfriend. You are probably going to get a rebuttal on your comment from “them” that won’t be very nice. I have already gotten a few, but I am not going to reply to “them” again. It is too bad that they don’t see the truth, but some day maybe they will come back to this website after they receive the Lord as their Savior and will apologize for their tyrannical misguided beliefs. Hopefully anyway. This one may be worded a little different than the first one. It’s so confusing sometimes if the first one really took when it says Duplicate message. God Bless!

    Dan, you are funny! Or should I say punny!

    • Dc

      I really don’t care. I know the Truth. I just saw a “rebuttal” aimed at someone else. It’s all “I” and “me.” “I use the Word to defend…” blah, blah, blah. It’s not the Word itself, per se, but how you interpret it. Calling us Pharisees; that’s rich.
      Digging a how without a shovel.

  • CHAR

    See what I mean? It went in twice. Next time I will have to be patient and just wait for a while to see if it posted. URG!

    • DC

      Same thing happened to me yesterday and I was all “Where’s my comment?” It was a lesson in patience, which I failed. haha.
      Have a great day. Hope you get the beautiful week of 80s we’re getting here!

  • Dan Quixoté

    Definitely want to be ready, either way – whether Rapture comes before 42 30-day months (1260 days) of Anti-Christ’s reign, or after. While I’d much prefer a pre-Trib trip skyward, the balance of prooftexts I see tips toward the final catching up of those believers still standing post-AC’s reign / pre-Wrath. But nothing but love for all believers of either of those two persuasions. It’s encouraging that everyone here wants to be found faithful whenever that day comes.

    I totally want to see you all, my brothers and sisters, caught up together with Him in the air.

    And if you get to the table before I do, save me a seat?

    For obvious reasons, I hope its crowded.

  • CHAR

    Dan Quixote, yes won’t it be awesome that we can all get together and worship the Lord face to face when we get there? We can introduce ourselves and give each other a great big hug in brotherly/sisterly love. After we meet the Lord I would like to meet Paul and on and on the list goes of all the righteous that went before us. What a wonderful eternity that will be! I’m getting excited to be there. We will definitely save you a seat. Lord come quickly!

  • Bill James

    Tommy, Israel was God’s wife. Israel divorced God but God said He would buy them back from the slave market (Hosea). But God sent His Son into the world to espouse the Church as His bride. Christ’s bride becomes His wife at the Marriage Supper (Rev. 21:9). The Bridegroom then takes His wife to dwell in the place that He has prepared for her (John 14:1-3; Rev. 21:9-27) just as the Jewish bridegroom took his espoused bride to his father’s house where he had prepared a place for her.

    • Tommy Daniells

      Bill
      I have already covered Hosea in my previous post. Please re read
      Rev.19:7 says,,, the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. It does not say his Bride becomes his wife.
      The Marriage Supper is not what most people think..Is it a table with millions of chairs ? Whats going to be served at this supper ? Is the wife really in need of any food? You may disagree with me but I think the supper is described in Eze.39:17-20,,Zeph.1:7,,Rev.19:17,18.
      In John 14:1-3 Who is Jesus talking to? The 12 disciples,, Jews,,Israel,,this is not the Rapture,the Rapture wasn’t revealed until The Lord revealed it to Paul.
      What was the place Jesus prepared for Israel, that where he was there they may be also? Rev. 21,,The New Jerusalem,,
      When will Jesus come again for Israel ? The second coming.
      I am not suggesting that the body of Christ will not have access to the new Jerusalem but why do most Christian’s believe that this city belongs to us? The number twelve is stamped all over the city (there are seven twelve’s in the description of the city). This number is not associated with the ONE body of Christ but the TWELVE tribes of Israel. The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are on the twelve gates of the city and the names of the twelve JEWISH apostles of the Lamb (Matt. 19:28) are on the twelve foundations. And yet Christians, in their usual selfish approach to the Bible, want to steal this city from Israel!
      Anyway Bill, this is what I believe

  • Bill James

    Ron, you are right, all the tragedies in this century including WWI & WWII were the result of Satan and man’s sinful nature not God’s wrath. But in Rev. 4-5 the Lamb takes up a scroll that outlines 21 distinct judgments. These judgments begin in Rev. 6:1 when the 1st seal is opened and by the 4th seal 1/4 of the world’s population perishes due to the wrath of the Lamb (Rev. 6:16-17).

    • Ron

      You are not reading my posts because all of the seals are the wrath of God.

      Someone named Emily who is making the claim that the wrath of God is not started until seal 6 because the people wake up to his wrath.

      and I am countering with the fact that ALL The seals are the wrath of God all the way thru to the Trumpets and Vials.

      What I said was this THE WORLD will see the first seals as just being caused by mankind ( and it is not 1.8 BILLION DIE OR MORE BY THE

      FIRST 4 SEALS ) and it is not mankind it is Christ opening His seals of wrath on the world. WWI and WWII had all total 60 to 70 million deaths

      well this will be 30 times as many and someone wants to claim otherwise. How CAN THAT NOT BE GOD”S WRATH WHEN 1 PERSON IN 4

      DIES??????????? Emily says it is not God’s wrath till seal 4. So Emily precedes her posts with my name and therefor you are reading what

      she says not I. From what I can see your doctrine is the same as mine so if you want find Emily’s post and respond to her as well.

      I have made the same mistake as you have in responding to someone else.

      God Bless You Bill.

      • Emery

        Ron;
        I hope you’re not thinking that WWI and WWII were God’s wrath, because they were not. Satan was hurled down to the vicinity of the Earth, and he has great anger knowing he has but a short time. The Gentile times have ended. Satan’s wrath is what caused those wars. And in the tribulation soon before us, it will be almost ALL 7.4 billion who will be exterminated, not one in four. There will be an extermination of all on Earth except maybe ten million or less, as an educated guess. We aren’t told in the scriptures exactly how many oppose God, but it’s almost everyone. His word says all who oppose God, or Jesus, or God’s word, and all religions and their participants, all governments and armies, and all who destroy the Earth spiritually and physically. In other words, all who embrace this system of things. All who do NOT remain “no part of the world”. I don’t know very many at all who don’t vote, watch entertainment God hates, drink to excess, have sex outside the marriage arrangement, gamble, salute flags and cheer football teams, and all the other things God’s word says we must NOT do. They are the ones who will be exterminated Ron. God warned all to “flee” from all the religions of the world. They are the ones who ignore the admonishion that ALL GLORY BELONGS ONLY TO GOD THE ALMIGHTY. Glorifying actors, musicians, politicians, flags, countries, football teams, sex, drugs, rock and roll, spiritism, and too many other things to list, means destruction. Claiming that none of this isn’t true, will have no effect on saving your butt. Claiming that God’s word doesn’t say these things isn’t going to change a thing. God will STILL enforce His judicial decisions. He’s given everyone over two thousand years of constant warnings. People have been warned by the Christian Congregation Jesus started the night before his death, and are STILL being warned every day by that congregation. Yet, almost ALL reject those warnings, saying “my religion doesn’t teach this or that”, or “my Bible doesn’t say that”. It doesn’t matter. God’s inspired word DOES SAY THESE THINGS. ‘Whether you listen only to a religion, and only use a falsely translated Bible or not, won’t help. Few accurately translated Bibles exist, and the KJV is not one of them. NO religions teach God’s word accurately. Satan is misleading the entire inhabited Earth, and those religions and Bibles are how he does it. AND IT WORKS. Almost EVERYONE doesn’t know or believe God. They rely solely on religions. The SAME religions that God SAID ARE FALSE. It’s still not too late. But very VERY soon it will be. Start studying an ACCURATE copy of God’s word, and FLEE from religion, and you MIGHT have a chance. Your religion teaches that you’re “SAVED” and “BORN AGAIN”, but they’re NOT telling you God’s views on those things. According to His word, neither are true. According to your RELIGION, it is. Who is right? God, or religion? They both can’t be Ron. It’s impossible.

  • Marius Steyl van Niekerk

    Thanks brother Geoffrey what an outstanding study. I really enjoyed and will forward it to all family and friends in South Africa!!!!!

  • In order to understand the Rapture of the church, one needs to understand the ancient Jewish wedding. Yeshua made many references to it when he described His “elect,” those he prayed for in the gospel of John. The wedding supper of the Lamb is a complete different and separate event that takes place in the end times and should not be mistaken with His Second Coming. Will the church or Bride suffer persecution, turmoil, and grief -that remains uncertain. The Bible hints at tribulation and persecution and that believers will go through. But specifically the “Bride,” I would say no. The Bride will not suffer. The Bride will be fully dressed and ready for her Groom. This readiness sets apart the hypocrites and the true saints of Yeshua. Isaiah 26:19-21 gives us a description of the wedding supper. It also my indicate the time of the tribulation. A Pre-Wrath Rapture is possible.

    • David Douglass

      You are right on the money here. When people read the Bible many do NOT start their endeavor to understand what they are reading by starting at the “Writer’s Chair”, as in the biblical book’s author, where he was when inspired by God to write. As Jesus spoke, and as it was inspired by the Holy Spirit years later by the gospel authors, the Jewish customs of a KING and His Nation was the writer’s chair context.
      .
      So as you said, a Jewish Wedding is the context when teachings of the ‘bride of Jesus the Messiah’ is presented. And therefore even more so, when a Jewish KING’s Wedding is presented. The King’s wedding of His bride always started with the ‘judgment of the brides family, associates, and national politics’. Each person within those groups was thoroughly examined. Once this judgment process was completed, the bride was then and only then ‘approved for marriage’ by the King himself.
      .
      At this time the King formulated his approach to ‘catch up His bride’ and take her away to safety to be married for eternity. This is the ‘commonsense of the Jews of Jesus day’ so this being the contextual norm of that day of the gospel writer’s chair, it is not necessarily explained within the written text per se. But it is non the less, there absolutely, irrefutably.
      .
      It must be understood that we are talking about a KING’S Wedding. and not a common place Jewish person. And in this case we could look to the marriages of Solomon when he took brides from neighboring nations or perhaps even David, Jacob, but seeing he was not a King, it would be not a perfect comparison.
      .
      With this strict hermeneutical approach, (which many or most biblical readers lack) all manner of confusion ensues. But as is the case with all biblical truths, the ability to acquire the truth is to ‘simply understand the base language, customs, biblical book authorship order within the 40 biblical authors inspired works, and customary literary figures of speech and other idioms.
      .
      Biblical Truths are plain and simple….to the people of the day of the “Writer’s Chair” and not the ‘readers chair’.

  • Karen

    There are a lot of Karen’s on this board. I have not posted on this particular article, but am going to further post as Karen U. There is also a Karen B. and a karen.

  • Rwt

    Emery,
    You are absolutely right about the site. If you don’t drink delusional wine, you are not welcome. I posted my opinion on the article. These internet Pharisees pile up and call me names, but I get blocked from a public site for Understanding truth.

    Doctrine does not match the word. This is the fake religion of Revelation 13. There is no rapture or tribulation. This is the age of judgement. Religion and doctrine are tools of Satan. Doctrine conceals the pure word. The delusion is strong. Peter said it would be seared into their conscious like a hot iron.

    There are those who are deceived and those who have taken an oath to deceive and spread false religion. When I got blocked, I knew the purpose of this site.

    • Well, if you are ‘blocked’ how is it you are posting now? Hmm…..

      • Ron

        Good Point Geoffrey! and isn’t Rwt Twr in reverse? Maybe someone is trying to slip in his doctrine because no one wants to hear the old one?

    • Ron

      What did you do Twr reverse your initials Rwt. And are you not posting here as Geoffrey stated so your post is Illogical and a lie.

  • Bill James

    Emory, what Bible are you reading? For example, the word “cross” is found 29 times in the New Testament. Every New Testament writer lived in the early first century and were either eye witnesses or lived among eye witnesses. There are literally 1000s of manuscripts dating back to 150 AD or sooner. And they are 97% in agreement. The slight differences in verbiage do not affect any doctrine.

  • Rwt

    Phil,
    There is no atonement for sin that had yet to be committed. The sin Jesus beared for mankind, originated in mankind with Adam. Romans 5:19, many will be made righteous. Matthew 20:28, he gave his life as a ransom for many. What is a ransom Phil? Does someone call and ask for a ransom for someone that is not hostage? Hebrews 9:15 shows he freed those who were hostage to the law of sin and death. Those who are born post resurrection are not hostage to anything but their own lusts and desires. Ransom is the key word here.

    World is improperly translated in KJV. Strong’s Greek #165 translates world as a messianic period or age. The temple destruction marked the end of that age. That is why mark 9:1 and Matthew 24: 33-35 are important.

    The sins of o.t. believers were wiped out, not covered or passed over (Jeremiah 50:20). This was only those in Hebrews 9:15. You are making assumptions about sacrifices and everything else because you don’t like what the bible is telling you.

  • Bill James

    Ron, thanks for your interpretation of the marriage supper and the Lamb’s bride/wife. Respectfully, I can’t agree. In Rev. 19:6-9, it is clearly a time of rejoicing with Hallelujah’s. This is a type of the Jewish wedding supper where friends and family celebrated for the espoused couple. The wedding celebration typically lasted for 7 days and culminated with the bride becoming a wife to the bridegroom. It says “blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper”. I plan to be there because I have received Jesus as my bridegroom and will be celebrating with all my other blood-bought brothers/sisters.

    In Ezek 39:17-20 and Rev 19:17-19, this is Armageddon where a great slaughter occurs to cleanse the earth of dreadful sinfulness. It certainly isn’t a time of light-hearted celebration. In fact, it’s the greatest massacre the world has ever known (Mat. 24:21-22; Dan 12:1).

    John 14:1-3 is spoken to the 12 disciples who are Christians and who were responsible for spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the then known world. These 12 disciples are Christians in sharp contrast to the Jews who crucified Jesus.

    I have no idea how Rev 21:9 can be interpreted any other way than the bride who has become the wife of the Lamb. It doesn’t say “I will show you the bride AND the wife”. It says the “the bride, the wife”. She is being taken to the New Jerusalem which has 12 foundations based upon the 12 Apostles who spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the entire world. These Apostles most certainly were Christians. Why do you think we Christians are trying to steal this city from Israel when Christianity is founded on a base built by Jewish Christians? We are embracing the Jews for doing so. The 12 gates named after the 12 tribes simply recognizes that Israel was responsible for bringing the Messiah into the world and giving us the Old Testament so that Jews and Gentiles can have eternal life and live in the presence of the Father and the Son.

    • Tommy

      Bill
      I think the problem why people don’t agree on this web site is,,,not everyone who is trying to rightly divide the Word of Truth, divides it the same way. For instance,,, there are 4 Gospels mentioned in scripture.
      Gal 3:8
      And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,
      Mat 4:23
      And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom,,,
      Act 20:24
      ,,,, I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
      Rev 14:6
      And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel,,,
      The gospel that Jesus preached and the gospel that Paul preached are not the same. Jesus preached a faith+works salvation,
      Mar 1:15,,,, the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT ye, AND believe the gospel.
      Mar 16:16
      He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved;
      And Paul preached faith alone.
      Rom 3:28
      Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
      We have to understand, Israel was still under the Mosaic Law and Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. Luke 24:44
      The Messianic church that Jesus started with the 12 is not the same church that Jesus started with Paul, the Body of Christ..People put the Body of Christ in Matt. Mark, Luke and John and the Messianic church in Paul’s epistles and you can’t do that, it causes confusion.
      Since the Church is the body of Christ it means that if Christ is the bridegroom we are part of His groomsmanship. Thus, we are of the bridegroom, not the bride.
      Wife and bride are titles that belong to Israel not the Church. Our title is “the body of Christ.”
      God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14.33). He wishes believers to understand who they are, where they fit in His plan, and what promises belong to them. When we do, we can rejoice in the grace God has given to us and serve and honor Him effectively.

      • Phil

        “Wife and bride are titles that belong to Israel not the Church.”

        “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”

      • Phil

        Paul, to the church at Corinth:

        “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

        • Tommy

          Paul does use the husband/wife relationship in Ephesians 5 to illustrate how husbands should love their wives, but it does not say that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of the Lamb. It simply says that Christ loved the church as His own body and gave Himself for it and that husbands should do the same for their wives.

          Romans 7 uses an illustration that says if a husband is dead, the wife is free to remarry. Even so we (the Body) are DEAD to the Law to be married to Christ.

          “ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another”

          That is clearly figurative because it says “married to ANOTHER”. To take the passage to mean that the Body is the Bride of the Lamb would also mean that we were once the Bride of the Law.

          Then 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 states that we should be as a “chaste virgin”, but again this is clearly a figure. “I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”. It says “AS” a chaste virgin, which is figurative.

          I already posted this once Phil, pay attention.

          • Tommy,
            In Eph.2:14,15 we find that there is no difference between a born again Hebrew and a born again Gentile in that Jesus “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;”

            The born again man is the “one new man”. And they are all the body of Christ. The three people groups in scripture are Israel, Gentiles, and Christians. The confusion comes from not recognizing to which group and in what dispensation God is speaking. And I am pretty sure this is where the different gospels you described could come into play as well.

            Blessings:-}

          • Tommy

            I do recognize which group God is talking to in each dispensation, and agree with you. The confusion does comes from not recognizing to which group and in what dispensation God is speaking.
            Good post Ed.

  • DC

    The firewall page is still coming up for me, so I am posting under old email. It usually works 1x and then that gets blocked too. Computer problems happen; don’t take it personally. To blame Geoff for it is just more vitriol from some people, a reason to lash out with self-righteousness. It’s happened to me, Char, Ron, Roland, and Gillian that I know of and probably more.

    Did anyone see the article about the small (2.2) earthquake RIGHT ON the New Madrid fault? Rapture Ready posted the link today:
    https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/1365

    It seems there are more and more earthquakes (as we knew there would be in the Last Days) and San Andreas is getting close to one. Also Yellowstone could blow at any time. The thing about New Madrid is that it splits the country down the middle and is a much worse disaster risk than San Andreas. Our country is so divided, it only makes sense that this could be the big one. The division I’m seeing here is worse, but mostly because some people won’t back down; they think they are always right and have to keep telling us how learned they are. It comes off as arrogant, when we’re supposed to be humble. ( I thought that if you are a good, smart person you didn’t have to go around telling everyone that—it would be obvious.)

    It reminded me of the parable I’m posting at the end. Most of the people here believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture, that the Church–Christ’s Bride–is precious to Him and would not be made to suffer wrath before her marriage, and that our job right now is to share the Gospel so many will get saved before Jesus comes. Other opinions are welcome but when they become domineering and overpowering and insulting to the believers here, it’s no longer a polite discourse but an agenda. Yes, people get well-trained in their studies in a cult, but no one that’s in a cult believes they are in a cult, so it’s impossible to get through to them. I’ve been praying for these people but they are filled with pride and refuse to take any correction, while at the same time preaching to others about Christian behavior. I am very tired of the bragging about how educated they are as well. How do you think that makes a new Christian feel? Think about it and this:

    Luke 18:9-14King James Version (KJV)

    9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

    10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

  • Rwt

    Emery, you a right and wrong. Hadrian confirmed the first Christian followers to be followers of serapis. Serapis was mythology and the savior of the world. By combining the mythological Christ with the Messiah, Rome was able to give breath to the image of the wild beast. You need to research serapis and you will see Christianity existed long before Christ. Catholicism is universalism. They incorporated the religions of conquered nations. That is why all holidays in Christianity are pagan. Rome still worships the sun. Mary has been transformed to semiramus, queen of heaven. That is why you see the halo of Helios around all the representations of Christ and the apostles. That is why Christmas and Easter are celebrated. Catholicism, mother of harlots has a daughter. The apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

  • RWT

    Geoffrey,

    For the computer illiterate, my I.P. address has been blocked. Obviously my phone wouldn’t be on the same I.P. That is how I was able to post. Ron, why are you so worried about me and my so called doctrine? If your doctrine was true, nothing I say would matter. Your doctrine is the problem.

    • If your IP was blocked, you could not have left this comment.

    • Dan

      twr is using rwt because he’s having trouble posting ; which we all are because the site is having trouble.

      What I’ve done twr is use the same logic you are using and by doing that I give you a link that clearly proves by searching the internet;

      there is no (realistic) connection between your Serapis and Christianity. You obviously have good intentions and are knowledgeable about

      what you’ve studied and that is what is so troubling for me abou you. You’re not a bad person so why is GOD allowing you to be deceived ?

      This is a good lesson for all of us on here and is a testament to GOD’s warning. Be careful when you seek him outside of scripture.

      And when you do make sure your heart is seeking the right knowledge rather than knowledge to disprove what GOD has already told you.

      As is with this case GOD will turn his back and leave you to your vomit.

      http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/serapis.php

      • TWR

        Dan,

        The story of Jesus was communicated by divination Job 38:31-33. The problem is other nations had diviners. God mythology and the original trinity story came from Babylon, with Nimrod, Semiramus and Tammuz. Semiramus was pregnant, it was not Nimrod’s. He threatened to expose her and was killed. She used the same story used by Christianity. Nimrod was deified as the sun, Tammuz was the first immaculate conception, and worshipped as the son of god, and Semiramus became queen of heaven. The Babylonian system spread thruought the know world. They were known by different names, but all gods came from this trinity or their attributes.

        In Egypt these gods were known as Isis, Osiris and Horus. Horus was conceived immaculately. He was also the sun god or sun of god. When Greece conquered Egypt Ptolemy Soter made Serapis the patron of that dynasty and forced Egyptians to worship his statue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

        You said it is no realistic connection. There is no way to not make the connection. Serapis was born December 25th. He came of age at 12, started his ministry at 30, had 12 disciples, walked on water, healed people, turned water into wine, was crucified and resurrected. How can you say there is no realistic connection? The difference between the progression of sun god’s and Jesus is they were all myths. They tried to get a jump on the story of the savior that was read in the stars. Almost every culture had savior gods that had died and resurrected, long befor Jesus ever walked the earth. You say no realistic connection, but there are only a few ways to distinguish them. Jesus was assuredly a dark skinned person. The image of Serapis, Ceasar Borgia and what we call Jesus are nearly identical.

        1 Maccabees 3:48 KJV
        “And laid open the book of the law, wherein the heathen had sought to paint the likeness of their images.”

        Israel was forbidden to make images. The heathen was not. Jesus has the sun god’s birthday (Jeremiah 10:2-4). Israel celebrates Passover. Christians celebrate Easter, which is wholly pagan and makes God very angry (Jeremiah 7:18). Jesus said he would be in the earth 3 days and nights. How do you get 3 days and nights from Friday evening to Sunday morning, before sunrise? When Israel fell into idolatry, they fell into sun worship and worshipped Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14). The cross was a symbol of Tammuz worship. The Greeks and Romans assimilated these traditions as they conquered nations.

        Aside from the image, the only distinction is how you worship. Jesus said keep the commandments. Serapis and similar cults wanted praise, worship and your money. Jesus hated organized religion. Their tradition was appointed times and feasts. Israelites weren’t allowed in the temple. The most high does not dwell in temples made by hand. Serapis was the first Christ, or anointed. Jesus made it a point to make that distinction to his disciples (Matthew 24:4-5). It takes more research than one disclaimer to bring that point home. Anytime the RCC thinks they will be discovered, there will be a disclaimer.

        • Dan

          TWR , if what you say is true post a link as I did. I found nothing on Serapis to support your claims. But, the internet is vast and it may just be a matter of your computer finding it.

          So give us a link , because as my link indicates there is little similarities between Christianity and the greco roman god Serapis.

  • Bill James

    Ron, I think you may have misunderstood my post. I’m in full agreement that the Lamb’s wrath begins with the 1st seal. The 1st seal begins a total of 21 judgments. The Lamb picked up the scroll in Rev. 5 containing 21 judgments and then proceeds to open the scroll one seal at a time. God Bless.

    • Ron

      I obviously My Brother in Christ I apologize if I came across wrong to you. It’s just I am kind of fed up with ridiculous doctrine and definitely False Doctrine. You have sound doctrine I have read it. Hang in there Brother we are almost Home! Soon, Very Soon the cry shall go out come up hither. You know it dawned on me who the ones are whose hearts will fail them for fear, it is those who did believe us Born Again Christians, got left behind because they didn’t accept Jesus Christ, and they knew what would be coming as laid out in Revelation.

      Luke 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

      God Bless You Bill!

  • TWR

    Geoffrey,

    Not here to argue. When I tried to post yesterday, I got the message that my I.P. was blocked, and directed me to some other site. The messages I posted earlier were from my phone, different I.P. The last message I posted was the first that went thru normally. I’m not crazy. I had a block message. I’m done with it. I’m done with all the arguing. If you can’t express your view of the word without getting attacked, there are issues on this site. It all revolves around a small group of people that think they speak for you and the whole site. They tell me they want me gone. They tried to tell me what their delusion was and if I didn’t believe it, I’m hell bound. I’m not born again. I have never been on a site like this. It reminds me of that movie, they live, where the people with the sunglasses can see. If you can see beyond the delusion, you are under attack. You have people calling for you to block me after they unsuccessfully engage me. I would check them and remind them who runs the sight. I don’t engage those who don’t engage me. Don’t hate me because my knowledge of the word is superior. God speaks to different people in different ways. I have legitimate haters on this sight. You don’t know me or my background. I’m not here to make trouble or antagonize. Your doctrine does not match the word. That is all.

  • TWR

    Emily,

    Jesus bore the sin of Adam, which affects mankind as a whole. He did not die for transgressions that you have the power to control. This is not monopoly where you get a get out of hell free card. You will be judged for everything, good or bad that you have done in the body (2 Corinthians 5:10). My sins are not forgiven. Repentance means to turn away from sin. Why do we repent, even after we supposedly have eternal security? I am accountable for what I do in the body. In my 20 years of military service and beyond, I have always understood accountability. Christians live in a fantasy world where there is no accountability. The Messiah’s mission was larger. He was a light to the world by example. He kept the Sabbath and the law. You are supposed to be doers and not just hearers of the word. I don’t want to be delusional enough to believe all my sins are forgiven. That is when we contemplate and make excuses to sin. I’m accountable. I need to do much more good to make up for those times before I gave my life. and the times I slipped after.

    • Emery

      Twr;
      When we pray for forgiveness I JESUS’ NAME, we take advantage of his ransom sacrifice. He gave a sacrifice ONCE for ALL TIME for our forgiveness of sin. WHENEVER we sin, we must pray for forgiveness on the basis of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Had he NOT made that sacrifice, we would still need to sacrifice blood from perfect animals on an alter. That was the arrangement from God for atonement for sin from the Law Covenant. Jesus ENDED the law covenant and instituted the New Covenant. So sacrifice was ended for sins. Jesus then sacrificed HIMSELF once for all time so that we MAY be forgiven for our sins IN HIS NAME and in the BASIS OF HIS SACRIFICE. So no, his sacrifice was not only for the Jews. And there is no hell of fire and torment. There is no separate soul to send there. We ARE a soul, we don’t HAVE a separate soul that survives our death.
      Ezekiel 18:4King James Version (KJV)
      4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

      So, if a soul is immortal, then Ezekiel 19:4 is a lie. Since God CANNOT lie, the soul is not immortal. We ARE the soul. A LIVING soul that dies.

      • TWR

        Emery,

        I have agreed with a lot you have said. Now you are back to creating doctrine. Where in the word do you find ransom sacrifice? His sacrifice was paid as a ransom for those who were captive. That is what the definition of a ransom is. He explained who those captives were in Hebrews 9:15.

        Ephesians 4:8King James Version (KJV)
        8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

        Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

        Jesus gave his life as a ransom. What is a ransom? He came to set the captives free. It is done. There are no more captives. Analyze the mission without your feelings or your doctrine.

        Luke 4:18King James Version (KJV)
        18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

        Matthew 18:11King James Version (KJV)
        11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

        Matthew 15:24King James Version (KJV)
        24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

        You can stay in denial about the mission of the Messiah all you want. You are doing yourself a disservice. Zero accountability equals a troubled world.

        • Emery

          twr;
          No, I don’t “create doctrine” ever. I adhere strictly and only to the inspired word of God. We were ransomed to sin and death when Adam screwed the pooch. Adam was perfect, and would still be alive had he been faithful and obedient. We inherited the death from sin that Adam incurred as a judgement from God for his disobedience. The perfect man Adam caused us to be ransomed, and it takes an equal perfect man to pay that ransom, Jesus. Jesus sacrificed himself, and God sacrificed His only begotten son so that we might get out from under that ransom. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 tells of that ransom from sin. Ephesians 1:7 as well speaks of it. 1 Corinthians 1:30 also speaks of such redemption. Romans 3:24 also talks of the redemption by paying the ransom. Even Mark 10:45 says it:
          Mark 10:45King James Version (KJV)
          45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

          So no, I haven’t “made any doctrine”. I speak the truth in God’s word twr. Nothing more, nothing less, ever. Hebrews 9:15 does not speak of those under the Law Covenant that was ended, but it speaks of everyone who through sin is liable for death. The ONLY punishment, by the way for sin, is DEATH. NOT death AND eternal torment. Just death. In the KJV translation, it’s not correctly translated because where it says “testament”, it should read covenant. In fact, in many places in the KJV where the word testament is used, it is falsely translated when it SHOULD read testament. Remember, the KJV was authored by James the First who was the head then of the Church of England, and wanted the Bible he was creating to reflect all of the beliefs of that religion. It wasn’t important to him to reflect what God inspired to say. That wasn’t his goal at all. That is why there are more than 20, 000 DELIBERATE mistranslated words in the KJV and added spurious texts that never existed prior to that translation. The most important thing, when using a Bible, is ACCURACY. Not your beliefs, but accuracy. Knowing what God ORIGINALLY intended when He inspired the writing of the scriptures is of paramount importance. Selfishness, pride, not wanting to be shown to be wrong, or any other reason for clinging to the KJV rather than seeking ACCURACY is an extremely dangerous thing.

    • Phil

      TWR,

      “My sins are not forgiven.”

      I don’t follow why you would think this. 1 John 1:9 says “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

      By the way, the ‘cleanse us from all’ clause voids any distinction between transgressions, sins, iniquity and trespasses. If you have no unrighteousness, you are righteous.

      ===

      “I am accountable for what I do in the body….I need to do much more good to make up for those times before I gave my life. and the times I slipped after.”

      You’re on very dangerous ground with this, my friend. This is precisely how the people in Matthew 7:21-23 wind up losers.

      Geoffrey (I think) mentioned that there are two judgments, the judgment seat of Christ for believers, and the Great White throne for those who are not. (The former is described in sufficient detail in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Please notice the bottom line.) What not commonly understood is that neither of these judgments has anything to do with sins. They will be conducted on the basis of ἔργον, ergon, works. All the sins of mankind, start to finish, were judged at the cross. Nobody, not Hitler, not Stalin, not even Gandhi, will wind up in hell because of their personal sins. They will not see the kingdom because they did not believe, and were therefore never reborn into kinship with God (See John 1:12,13). The only work that counts is declared in point-blank terms in John 6:

      28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
      29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

      Grace is graceful. It is also very streamlined.

  • TWR

    Emily,

    Jesus didn’t die for my sins. The realization of that makes me a better person. When you remove accountability from a person, you lessen that person. One can never reach their full potential in God when there is no accountability. Jesus closed out the first age. His sacrifice created one man, where there were two. You couldn’t have Israelites raised in the law mixing with the new man, where keeping the law was still priority, but voluntary. That is why I emphasize Mark 9:1 and Matthew 24:33-35. In Matthew 24:3, the disciples were not asking when will the end of the world be, but of the messianic age, or system of things. When one was taken that was grinding at the mill or in the field, this was Israel under the old system vs the new. I understand Pauline doctrine talks about our sins being forgiven, but Paul’s audience is never identified. Just because he was apostle to gentiles, the assumption is every word he said was inclusive. Just like Matthew 9:1, audience must be identified. The word gentile has multiple meanings.

    Strong’s greek #1290. diaspora dee-as-por-ah’ from 1289; dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries:–(which are) scattered (abroad).

    I believe, Christian or not, it is a pipe dream to go through life and not be accountable for anything you have done. That is strong delusion. That is not scriptural.

  • Phil

    TWR,

    “Jesus didn’t die for my sins.”

    If that is the case, then:

    “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”

    must mean something other than what it says. Would you explain what it really means? It has to mean something.

  • TWR

    Phil,

    What I am trying t stress to everyone is accountability. I don’t care how many judgments there are, judgment means accountability. You and Geoffrey might understand the nuances of different types of judgments and crowns, but to an ordinary Christian, forgiven sins can mean no accountability. Forgiveness to me is totally excusing sin like it was done for Israel under the first covenant.

    Jeremiah 50:20King James Version (KJV)
    20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

    There is nowhere in the bible where that promise was extended to anyone else. We are in the age of judgment. I believe my sins are forgiven, but I also know that I have to answer for them in some way. I choose to live my life as if they are not. It keeps me from making bad choices and thinking I can just ask for forgiveness later. It keeps me from believing that I will not be held accountable.

    • Phil

      TWR,

      “I believe my sins are forgiven, but I also know that I have to answer for them in some way.”

      Oh we will, but not to the point of losing our friendship and kinship with the Lord. “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.” Our Father is a perfect parent, and I can personally testify that He will take the hide off of you if you have it coming. We can learn academically, or the hard way, or not at all. But you are still His child when the smoke clears.

      I like you TWR. We may disagree about a lot of things, but I think that, in human terms, you are a good man. Not unlike Martin Luther before the lights came on.

      • Dan

        Phil,
        you like twr which is understandable he does try. But when he turns around and confirms your point by adding ” I believe my sins are forgiven, but I also know that I have to answer for them in some way. I choose to live my life as if they are not. It keeps me from making bad choices and thinking I can just ask for forgiveness later.( It keeps me from believing that I will not be held accountable.)

        It becomes exhausting because he clearly doesn’t see(or does he) he’s being oppositional for no reason other than to promote nonsense

        he’s gleaning off the internet. In this case you reigned him into admitting his recipe for keeping himself accountable which you and I know

        unfortunately; this is something he’s torturing himself with. GOD bless your patience brother !

    • All saved Christians are accountable, that’s what the Judgment Seat of Christ is for. But the Bible is quite clear, a born again person cannot lose their salvation.

  • TWR

    Phil,

    U wasn’t even born. Did he die so you could sin and get away with it? Put your hands up and back away from the doctrine. That thought process is why we have sin.

    Matthew 20:28King James Version (KJV)
    28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    Those many can be found in Hebrews 9:15. How do I know this?

    Matthew 15:24King James Version (KJV)
    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Jesus specified who he was sent to. Why is everybody ignoring what he said and trying to make it more. Forget what he said. He came for me too. Who cares about ransom and captives. Doctrine says he died for my sins. Can anyone allow the Messiah to tell you why he came? Can the gods on this site allow Jesus to tell you why he came?

    Luke 4:18King James Version (KJV)
    18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    I have never seen a bunch of people so dedicated to their own doctrine that they just ignore everything before them. If I only came to get a hamburger, I’m not leaving with a hot dog. C’mon people. You and your doctrine are just going to override his words. That is totally awesome.

    • Phil

      TWR, I think you confuse doctrine with dogma.

      I agree with you on Matthew 15:24, but only in it’s context. It did not end there. He also said “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” This is in keeping with what Paul repeated in Romans, “to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile”.

  • TWR

    Emory,

    We were all freed from the law of sin and death. There are no captives today. You can sell that kidnapped story to the witnesses.

    Romans 8:2King James Version (KJV)
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    I’m not buying. The ransom was for the captives.

    • Emery

      twr;
      I “sell” nothing to anyone. I am not a salesman. I tell no “stories” either. I preach the Kingdom message and the truth contained in the scriptures. You can call it whatever you want, but a rose by any other name still smells as sweet.

      “Buying it?” One does not “buy” the word of God twr. One accepts it, or rejects it. the ransom paid by Jesus was for all who are/were captive to sin and death. That means everyone alive and who has ever been. If you’re “shopping” and “buying” things, then you’re on the straight and wide road that is spacious, and you missed the exit for the narrow path that is crowded and that few ever find.

  • TWR

    Phil,

    I appreciate you. I’m glad someone here sees that I mean no harm. I want to see each and every last one of you at the pearly gates. God has just given me a different interpretation. I just wanted to share, not be attacked. In the end, there are the wheat and the tares growing up together. They will be separated. You can’t change a tare into wheat. Sound doctrine will always prevail. God bless you Phil.

    • The harm that TWR brings is to try to sell Christians on the idea that Paul’s teachings are not directly from Jesus Himself. This is why he asked the question of Geoffrey “do you worship Jesus or Paul?” TWR is a full on unregenerate legalist. The very same type that Paul fought throughout his entire ministry. The same ones that were deceiving those at Galatia and is why he asked them;

      “O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn from you, received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?” Gal.3:1-3

      To be “made perfect by the flesh” is to be perfected by the works of the law. Paul is abundantly clear that salvation, before, during, and after, has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with the law. The law has been abolished according to Paul’s teaching (Eph.2:15) and that is why TWR rejects what Paul says about salvation.

      Phil, as I understand it, Martin Luther, warts and all, always believed Jesus is God. The main issue however concerning TWR is that he does not believe Jesus is the creator God. TWR believes that Jesus was just a man like you and me. Nothing more. He is not born again and therefore can not understand the grace of God. The natural man only knows earning and nothing about the concept of a truly free gift.

      Praise Jesus, the almighty God, for His gracious gift of life eternal. Something that can not be earned. Not because men can not keep the law, but because God intended it to be a gift. And you can not do anything to deserve a gift. Otherwise it is no longer a gift, but debt. Rom.4:4

      • Emery

        Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.

      • Phil

        edwitness,

        “The main issue however concerning TWR is that he does not believe Jesus is the creator God.”

        I didn’t see him state that, but I could have easily overlooked it. I have noticed that twr seems to hold somewhat of a dim view of Paul, which is an absolute necessity if you’re on a works tangent. He also relies on profane sources and snags on verses that don’t really support the his conclusions. I don’t expect him to change his mind about anything he’s invested in, but I still like him.

        • Emery

          It is equally funny as it is sad that you think you’re correct in your assertions, when you are so incorrect Phil.

      • TWR

        Edwitness,

        I’m not even trying to debate you anymore. The ministry of Jesus is an extension of God. The ministry of Paul and the disciples is an extension of Jesus. There is continuity in that ministry, so as not to confuse God’s people.

        Malachi 3:6King James Version (KJV)
        6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

        If God says or desires for his people to serve him in a particular way, Jesus is not coming to change that.

        Matthew 5:17-19King James Version (KJV)

        17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

        18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

        19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

        Yes, I asked Geoffrey who he serves because if Jesus says something and you believe Paul says something different, maybe it is just your understanding, and a bad interpretation of what Paul is saying. If there seems to be a contradiction, I am going to go with the person that died for me and not the person that gave me the interpretation that satisfied my lawless heart. The same way Jesus was an extension of God’s will, so was Paul and the disciples.

        Romans 3:31King James Version (KJV)
        31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

        Whatever you gleen from Paul’s words, here he says we establish the law. I’m tired of repeating the same thing to you Edwitness. I’m starting to believe you are mentally handicapped. You keep saying Paul said the law is abolished, but that is not what he says. He says that there were ordinances within the law that were abolished. I don’t care if everyone on here hates me. Can anyone please speak up and help the mentally challenged distinguish between the law being abolished and certain ordinances being abolished? Some people are mentally challenged and can’t understand the difference between the law and ordinances within the law. As Christians, we cannot let a mentally challenged Christian down. Paul clearly does not say the LAW itself is abolished as Edwitness claims.

        Ephesians 2:15King James Version (KJV)
        15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

        I know many of you are friends of Edwitness, but in my 20 years of military service I was trained to recognize deception artists. Edwitness cannot discuss the merits of a particular subject without bringing my perceived belief into the conversation to sway anyone against what he is arguing. The purpose is to take your mind off of the facts of what we are discussing and make you focus on me.

        Matthew 19:17-19King James Version (KJV)
        17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

        18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

        19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

        It was the savior that told us to keep the commandments. Why would Paul, being taught by the savior tell us we don’t have to keep the commandments? Why would you want to live in a world where people didn’t keep the commandments? That means theft, murder and adultery are ok. That means we can serve other gods. Satanic followers like Edwitness want you to believe that we don’t need to follow any laws. If Paul did not believe in the law, why did he teach it?

        Jesus was the word and the wisdom of God. Jesus was the word that taught us to live righteous before God. Jesus taught the law.

        Luke 24:27King James Version (KJV)
        27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
        Luke 24:44King James Version (KJV)

        44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

        Jesus is the law.

        John 5:46-47King James Version (KJV)

        46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

        47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

        Edwitness wants you to believe he came to abolish himself. The Messiah came to abolish himself and everything he stood for so you could be lawless. Is that what Jesus came for? Is that what he died for? We are not bound by the law. We do not have the curse. Our adherence to the law is voluntary.

        John 14:15King James Version (KJV)
        15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

        Following anything Edwitness says leads straight to the lake of fire. If you don’t love Jesus enough to follow his example and keep his commandments, do not call yourself Christian or the church. Edwitness is delusional and will drag you to hell with him. How can you believe because Jesus died we have no laws to follow? How can you deny the words of Jesus himself? Nowhere in the bible does it say the law was abolished. I have shown you Ephesians 2:15. It says ordinances. Edwitness is trying to cause you to lose your soul.

        • Here is what TWR said about who Jesus is.

          “Jesus was the word and the wisdom of God. Jesus was the word that taught us to live righteous before God. Jesus taught the law.”

          “Jesus is the law.”
          Does anyone notice what is missing here? He never ever says Jesus is God. And if you believe that Jesus is not God then you are not born again.

          Then he says ;

          “Following anything Edwitness says leads straight to the lake of fire. If you don’t love Jesus enough to follow his example and keep his commandments (what are His commandments? “And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.”Luke 10:27), do not call yourself Christian or the church. Edwitness is delusional and will drag you to hell with him. How can you believe because Jesus died we have no laws to follow? How can you deny the words of Jesus himself? Nowhere in the bible does it say the law was abolished. I have shown you Ephesians 2:15. It says ordinances. Edwitness is trying to cause you to lose your soul.”

          What are His commandments? “And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.”Luke 10:27.
          We do not follow the law of Moses. Any of it. If you do you will be like the “wretched man” described in Rom.7 who rejects the deliverance from the law Christ has won for Israel.

          But, Jesus says; “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” John 8:24

          You know why a person like TWR that rejects the almighty God, who is Jesus, the I Am, as savior dies in their sins? Because they are still under law. They are adulteresses. Rom.7:1-7. They are under the wrath of God. “Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.” Rom.4:15. This means no transgression, no wrath. This is why Jesus abolished the law. Eph. 2:15. So that we could be free from death’s sting so that we might know Him. 1 Cor. 15:56 and John 17:3.

          TWR, like Emery, needs to be born again. As well as anyone that does not believe that Jesus is I AM.

          • Emery

            edwitness;
            A lot of what twr says is completely inaccurate, but everything you posted cannot be found in the inspired word of God.
            IF JESUS IS GOD

            Why is he called the “firstborn of all creation? Col. 1:15, RE 3:14
            Why did he say he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent forth?
            Joh. 8:42
            Why did Jesus not know the “day and hour” of the great tribulation
            Who did Jesus speak to in prayer?
            How did he “appear before the person of God for us? Heb. 9:24
            Why did Jesus say “the father is greater than I am?” Jo. 14:28
            Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his babtism saying “this is my son?”
            How could he be exalted to a superior position? Php. 2:9, 10
            How can he be the “mediator between God and man? 1 Tim. 2:5
            Why did Paul say that “the head of Christ is God? 1 Cor. 11:3
            Why did Jesus “hand over the Kingdom to his God” and subject himself himself to God? 1 Cor. 15:24, 28
            Who does he refer to as “my God and your God?” Joh. 20:17
            How does he sit at God’s right hand? Ps. 110:1, Heb. 10:12, 13
            Why does John say “no man has seen God at any time?” Joh. 1:18
            Why did people not die when they saw Jesus/ Ex.. 30:20
            How was Jesus dead and God alive at the same time? Ac. 2;24
            Why did Jesus need someone to save him? Heb. 5:7
            Who is referred to prophetically at Pro. 8:22-31?
            Why did Jesus say “that all authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven
            and on Earth? Mt. 28:18, Dan. 7:13, 14 (similar) WHO GAVE IT TO HIM? Did he give it to HIMSELF?

            Clearly, Jesus is God’s only begotten son. Beget is the root word of begotten, and it means to create, to procreate. CREATE.

  • TWR

    Emory,

    I agree with you 100% on the law of sin and death. That has no bearing on individual transgressions.

    Romans 3:31King James Version (KJV)
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

    James 1:25King James Version (KJV)
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    You were told what you needed to do, therefore you were not captive. You just believed doctrine over word.

    • Emery

      I was told? By whom? I believed doctrine over word? What doctrine? You assume much. You mistake as much. Jesus died for all as a way to righteousness. The Law Covenant was a TEMPORARY arrangement until the New Covenant was put in place. The first covenant was a poor substitute because Israel was so heard hearted, stiff necked and stubborn. The New covenant created the Christian congregation comprised of the 144,000. The “little flock”, and those who associated with those of the little flock still alive throughout history from Jesus’ death until now are the “other flock”, the “great crowd”. The second group are not technically part of the New covenant, but are able to take advantage of it’s promises for doing God’s work on Earth along side the 144,000 remnant. The first covenant didn’t actually allow anyone to achieve righteousness, the New covanant does, but only after judgement day is over after the thousand years of bringing Earth back to a paradise, and teaching the resurrected ones God’s new scrolls He promises to give us after Armageddon. Yes, Jesus died for all. He provided a ransom sacrifice for all. Were that not so, anyone not covered by that ransom payment would receive the penalty for sin, death, since all are sinners. Sin inherited from Adam, and sin committed because we are all imperfect. What you are telling me is religious dogma, not scriptural truth. One thing you will NEVER hear from me is religious anything. I have NOTHING EVER to do with any religion. I am Christian, and no Christian can be Christian if they are part of any religion. God’s rules, not mine.

  • twr

    Phil,

    I believe in gentile salvation. That doesn’t change the mission. When he was here, he didn’t preach or tell his disciples to preach to gentiles. After he resurrected and set the captives free, he said go make disciples of all the nations. What he was sent for was complete.

    Matthew 27:53King James Version (KJV)
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    He set the captives free.

  • TWR

    Geoffrey,

    I agree. Christians don’t know what it means to be born again. Paul and his crew were converting people. They were not converting people to lawlessness.

    Matthew 18:3King James Version (KJV)
    3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Jesus was the law. He was God’s wisdom for all man.

    John 5:46-47King James Version (KJV)
    46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

    47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    There is only one thing that can convert a soul.

    Psalm 19:7-8King James Version (KJV)
    7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

    8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

    We don’t keep the law out of obligation a curse. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments.

    Matthew 19:17-18King James Version (KJV)
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    What is so detrimental about thou shalt no kill that everybody wants to discard the law?

    Acts 28:23King James Version (KJV)
    23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

    Christians have a different concept of what the law is.

  • TWR

    Emory,

    I wish just one person would allow Jesus to tell you why he came minus the doctrine. Is that too hard for you?

    Matthew 15:24King James Version (KJV)
    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    I only came for Israel. I’m just playing. I came for everybody. Them was jokes. Your dispute is not with me. Your dispute is with Jesus. He said he came for a certain group. You saying he lied and came for everybody. I’m sure he appreciates you calling him a liar.

    Now, you want to tell me about some Christian congregation of 144,000, that is Christian. I could have swore they were from the tribes. As a matter of fact, didn’t God invite gentiles to become Israelites? How did Israelites become Christian?

    Ephesians 2:19King James Version (KJV)
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    Israelites became Christians when Constantine forced conversion of God’s chosen people to Christianity. Convert or die.

    http://jdstone.org/cr/files/converttochristianityordie.html

    This is the problem with Christianity today, even J.W. Doctrine over word. Jesus is not capable of telling you why he came. He didn’t know. He didn’t comprehend his mission. If you JUST go to a restaurant for a burger, do you leave with a hot dog? You doctrine still falls under Christianity and religion. You say a lot of things that are scriptural and make sense. At the core of your belief, you are going to make Jesus come for your purpose and not his.

    We could not control sin committed by Adam, but we can control sin committed by us. As long as people believe there is no accountability, we will remain as close to imperfection as we can get. As long as people believe we are not supposed to follow all the commandments, we will never see the kingdom. The kingdom has been here.

    Luke 17:20-21King James Version (KJV)
    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    When you stop believing in mythology and you will let the Son of God tell us why we came, maybe we can resume this conversation.
    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

  • TWR

    Emory,

    If Jesus said he was just sent to Israel, that is why he was sent. If the residual affect of his coming benefits all of mankind, so be it. It doesn’t affect why he came. Like Emily said, he was a light for mankind by imitating his behavior. Your doctrine or no one else’s doctrine is capable of changing the reason why HE SAID HE CAME. You can accept why he said he came or continue to create your own doctrine.

    • Emery

      Please, answer these for me:
      How many years have you obeyed the ENTIRE will of God?
      How many years have you KNOWN what the entire will of God is?
      For how many years have you obeyed God in “fleeing” from all religion?
      For how many years have you translated ancient Hebrew and ancient Koine into English?
      For how many years have you been an ordained minister of God?

      After you answer, I will do the same. Then we can talk about it.

      • TWR

        EMORY,

        Nobody has been able to perfectly obey t he will of God but one. Jeremiah 31:31-33, God wrote his laws in our inward parts. We all know what the entire will of God is. It is about when we come to the realization of what we know. It is very difficult to walk in that realization when we adhere to religion and doctrine. Although both my parents were ordained ministers, I never pursued it. I never felt comfortable. God wrote what he deemed most important directly in our hearts. No translation required. God doesn’t ordain ministers, religions do. That little piece of paper is only significant in religion. Jesus didn’t seek the Pharisees, who were already versed in the law but used it to promote themselves. He used regular guys. I was out of the church for 25 years. My conscious has not been seared, so I am easy to use.

        Humility is one of the most important attributes in one who would be used by God. You made a statement that is totally uncharacteristic of a man of God. EVERYTHING I ever post is completely accurate and truthful with no exceptions. I would never make that statement. Knowledge is progressive. Knowledge increases as God releases (Daniel 12:4).

        I don’t understand how you don’t see witnesses as an offshoot of Christianity. Your doctrine is slightly different, but that was the plan. Satan’s goal is division. Whether its a denomination, or a branch like J.W. or Mormanism, it is still a form of Christianity, and all the doctrines are created by the same people. God has always wanted to communicate directly with his people. The Israelites were afraid and requested a middleman. God accommodated them, which cause his laws to be written on tablets instead of directly to their hearts. This was rectified in the new covenant, which alleviated the need for a middleman. Jesus was the last one to hold the office of the prophet.

        Isaiah 29:10King James Version (KJV)
        10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

        This is how you know guys like Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell and even Mohammad could not possibly have been prophets sent from God. God still gives prophetic utterance as a ministry aid, but there are no prophets. As far as original text is concerned, the problem with your doctrine is that the letter J did not exist on this earth until the 1500s. If you were trying to do it right you would be witnessing for YAH, YHVH or Yahuah (pronounced Yahweh).

        • Emery

          twr;
          Never once have I said that anyone PERFECTLY does the ENTIRE will of God. I said His servants do His entire will, all day, every day, as a way of life. No religion of Christendom does or teaches that. I’ve studied all of the main religions of Christendom, and studied WITH them for several months each, since 1977. I started doing that a couple years after I started courses in translating ancient Hebrew and ancient Koine Greek, and began translating the ancient texts used to translate the Bibles of today. I was actually searching for a religion that was approved of by God. But seeing that He doesn’t approve of ANY religion, it seems like a waste of my time in retrospect. But I did that studying for 40 years (the religions) and I still do the translating and comparative scriptural studies. One of the reasons I did these things, is because when I was young, I was an alter boy in a Catholic Church. One Sunday, the priest read a letter from the Vatican. It stated that we must stop praying to the saints, Mary, and Jesus, and we must now pray only to the Pope, who would pray on our behalf. I knew then that we were ONLY to pray to God the Almighty, and not to Mary, saints, or Jesus. But that letter disturbed me so much, I never went back ever again to a Catholic Church, except when my wife, decades later, begged and pleaded with me to attend church with her. Not long after THAT, I formally quit the Catholic church permanently.

          I never said anyone was a prophet from God in modern times either. Russell was a holy spirit annointed member of the 144,000, and several witnesses were and are as well. Several turned their backs on God and refused His invitation to heaven. Most though, didn’t. They are faithful today.

          However, there is no evidence that your pronunciation of God’s personal name is correct at all, but MOUNDS of evidence exist for Jehovah being the correct, or close to correct pronunciation. Jah is used in the scriptures countless times, and is even part of the word “hallelujah”, which means “praise Jah” or praise Jehovah. Many in the scriptural accounts and letters have names of characters with portions of their name being a portion of Jehovah’s name as well. Secular ancient writings uncovered by archeologists use the name Jehovah in several languages. Ancient Koine, ancient Hebrew, and others. The tetragrammaton in ancient Hebrew for YHVH is not the only indicator. Howeve, no one actually knows exactly what it was without doubt, since Israel became superstitious and spiritistic, which God forbade, and they stopped using His name. So for you to tell me it’s this or that for certain, tells me that you’re not being honest about that. It’s IMPOSSIBLE for you to know definitavely. If you actually did know the exact pronunciation, then you would be the ONLY person alive who does, and you would be famous and world renowned. You are not. And you don’t know. So don’t attempt to make me believe what you said about Jehovah’s name’s pronunciation twr. Don’t even go there.

          As far as God’s witnesses today and Christianity goes, no religion is Christian, they are “Christendom”, the group of religions CLAIMING they are Christian. Since God’s word tells us that Christians are to be no part of any religion of man, none of them CAN be Christian. Jesus began the “Christian Congregation” on Nisan 14 of 33 c.e., NOT a church or religion. The word for religion is not in the scriptures where in the KJV has put the word “church”. It’s simply not there in any ancient texts. That’s a falsely translated word on the part of King James the First. Remember, he was the head of the Church of England at the time, and wanted the Bible he was producing to reflect ONLY the beliefs of the Church of England. God’s inspired word, and religion, are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. They are opposed to eachother. God is opposed to religion, and religion is opposed to God. If religions were not opposed to God, they would teach ACCURATELY, every single word of His inspired word. NONE DO, nor have any ever done so. The Christian Congregation created by Jesus, exists today, and it is populated with God’s witnesses, known legally as Jehovah’s Witnesses today. An organization of any size cannot exist today without legal registration with the government. It cannot financially operate without such a legal registration. The congregation as a whole, voted on a name in 1931 and settled on the name of the One for whom they were witnessing. That name is Jehovah’s Witnesses. Then is when they changed their legally registered name to that. The name also is what they do, they WITNESS for Jehovah, as Jehovah commanded ALL Christians to do, so very long ago. He told Israel to be His witnesses also. Since they were subsequently REJECTED by God as His chosen nation, and REPLACED with “spiritual Israel”, the holy spirit annointed 144,000, the same annointed became His earthly witnesses henceforth. Since ALL religions, being rejected by God, HATE this organization, they have worked since Jesus’ time on Earth, to destroy them as an organization. What God’s witnesses do makes ALL religions look pretty bad in comparison, so they hate them. There exists no end to false information about them in books, internet, religions, and periodicals. All inspired by Satan, as are all religions. He after all is the one who INTRODUCED religion to the world. Religion being the false teachings and beliefs about God. Satan is the first to say false things about God, and he did so to Eve, who told Adam, who became the first religious proselyte. This is information discerned in more than 40 years of study and research. I am not the only one to understand this either. Seven years ago, I found a group of people who knew these things. They are Jehovah’s Witnesses. So five years ago, I joined them and became an ordained minister of God.

          • Pete

            Emery, I don’t know what particular denomination or sect you belong to, whatever, it doesn’t matter to me right now. I guess we agree on some points, but that doesn’t mean we agree on all points. My question to you is this: why are the 144,000 described in Revelation 14:4 as “These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” Why are they called the “firstfruits” of the Lamb?

          • Knowing the name of Jehovah will NOT save you, not even close. The Bible says that ALL power has been given to His Son, and what’s His Name? Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, the sweetest Name I know, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

            “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:10,11 (KJV)

          • TWR

            Emory,

            I have been what you consider Christian my whole life. We agree that Christian doctrine does not match the word, but how can you hope to reach Christians when your doctrine is equally flawed, and slightly more delusional. The Israelites did not wholly reject Jesus. Their punishment is temporary, and there were no replacements selected in the interim. All the religions created after Jesus seem to anoint themselves as the successors to the nation. Jews are God’s chosen, Christians are the church or bride, Islam has the seal of the prophets, but JW, spiritual Israel, anointed 144,000, do you understand how laughable that is?

            Romans 11:18King James Version (KJV)
            18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

            There are no replacements for the nations or the 144,000. That is not biblical, it is your doctrine. These are first fruits, without blemish and no falsehood is found in their mouth. To say J.W. has replaced the nation is falsehood. That is the attraction of another false doctrine designed to deceive by telling members they can be the 144,000. That is a 9 on the deceit chart.

            How can you be God’s witnesses on earth if no one is listening? When you put yourselves on a pedestal and proclaim to be the only ones God is speaking to, not only do you close ears, but you go against the teachings of Jesus.

            Matthew 23:8King James Version (KJV)
            8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

            Result of search for “rabbi”:
            3547. nomodidaskalos nom-od-id-as’-kal-os from 3551 and 1320; an expounder of the (Jewish) law, i.e. a Rabbi:–doctor (teacher) of the law.

            You are no one’s teachers. God has not anointed any particular group to carry that mantle. Your proclamation makes you no better than the Vatican (RCC). I’m happy you found a religious organization that agrees with you. Call a spade a spade. You are a religion and your doctrine, in many ways contradicts the word. The Israelites were not meant to be replaced because God is judging the nations who have mistreated the Israelites before he fully restores them.

            Zephaniah 3:18-20King James Version (KJV)

            18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.

            19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

            20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.

            Acts 7:7King James Version (KJV)

            7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

            You should be ashamed as a religion to try to anoint yourselves to fill the void left by Israel. God wrote his laws in our hearts and sent the holy spirit to minister to us. You are no replacement for Israel. How you accept the flaws of your doctrine is the same way Christians will accept the flaws in theirs. No matter how much truth you bring, Christians will not accept the flaws of doctrine when yours is as equally flawed, if not worse.

          • Emery

            twr;
            What do you mean “my doctrine”? It’s not “my doctrine” twr, it’s GOD’S. It is what the inspired word of God says and teaches. I have no doctrine other than what God’s word says. And it’s NOT flawed. God’s word is the ONLY TRUTH, it’s NOT flawed at all. Claiming so is to oppose the One who inspired it’s writing. “Jews” are NOT God’s chosen nation. The Law Covenant (law contract) between God and Israel was CANCELLED by God when they finally broke the camel’s back, so to speak, by killing His only begotten son, Jesus, the messiah or Christ. That covenant, and nation was REPLACED with the New Covenant with “Spiritual Israel”, consisting of people from ALL nations, languages, and national groups. I could care less what any “religion” does or says, it’s of no consequence to God, except to make them His enemy. Spiritual Israel isn’t a religion, it’s a group of people whom God chose to be His adopted sons, and to co-rule with Jesus as priests and kings. JW doesn’t “have” Spiritual Israel, God does. He chose them, and He made the arrangement. The still living remnant of them, MOST of them still living, have become God’s witnesses and are JW’s as well. They are the “faithful and discreet slave” class as the scriptures describe. They are the ones whom God will “take up into the clouds” to be with Jesus after the tribulation peaks. This event is what religions lyingly claim is a “rapture”, but no such rapture will ever take place. No one who is part of any religion will be “taken up into the clouds” either. The annointed 144,000 are the ONLY ones, besides Jesus, to EVER be “born of spirit”, or as you call it, “born again”.

            What do you mean by replacements for the nations or the annointed? What is that all about? Did your religion tell you about that?

            How can we obey God’s command to be His witnesses? It’s easy, we do what He commands, and we do it the way He arranged it. And MANY listen. Currently there are many listening. If there were not, then how do you explain these statistics?
            Branches of Jehovah’s Witnesses: 89

            Number of Lands Reporting: 240

            Total Congregations: 118,016

            Worldwide Memorial Attendance: 19,862,783

            Memorial Partakers Worldwide: 15,177

            Peak of Publishers in Kingdom Service: 8,220,105

            Average Publishers Preaching Each Month: 7,987,279

            Percentage of Increase Over 2014: 1.5

            Total Number Baptized: 260,273

            Average Auxiliary Pioneer Publishers Each Month: 443,504

            Average Pioneer Publishers Each Month: 1,135,210

            Total Hours Spent in Field: 1,933,473,727

            Average Home Bible Studies Each Month: 9,708,968

            Nine million seven hundred thousand home Bible studies means that at LEAST that many are “listening” twr. Many of those studies are with more than one person, so the total “listening” could be close to one and a half times that number. That’s HARDLY nobody.

            And yes, I am a teacher of MANY. Every week I conduct teaching sessions with several people. Am I imagining it? In whose homes do I go each week then and teach scripture twr? How about the other 9,708,967 in home studies that are conducted. Are those imagined also? Hardly. And I have no associations with any “religious organization” either. You CERTAINLY make a LOT of strange assumtions, and your information is flawed. You get it from everywhere except from those whom you seek to disparage. If you want information about someone, GO TO THEM. Get FIRST HAND INFORMATION so you can get accurate information instead of lies.

            And again, we are not a “religion” and we don’t “annoint” anyone. Only God can annoint anyone with His spirit, and only God can choose to do so. One cannot himself choose to be annointed. That assumtion is rediculous and illogical and insultinig to God.

            How can I be a replacement for Israel? Again you post rediculous things. Why do you do THAT? Completely absurd. It is Spiritual Israel with whom God made His covenant, replacing the one with Israel, who rejected God hundreds of times, killed His prophets, and worshiped PAGAN GODS AND IDOLS, and then murdered His only begotten son, Jesus.

            And for the last time, God’s word is NOT FLAWED DOCTRINE. You SURE do want to insult God and be His enemy, don’t you!

          • TWR

            Emory,

            There is no such thing as a group of people called spiritual Israel. That invite was extended to all of mankind.

            Ephesians 2:19King James Version (KJV)
            19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

            Christianity, Islam, Mormon and J.W. are alternatives to what God was offering.

            The faith is based on keeping the commandments. If you are not witnessing about the commandments, you are wasting your time. It doesn’t matter what you feel like Israelites did, God did not say anyone was or needed to replace them. The Holy Spirit is his ministry. The Israelites didn’t have churches and temples. The Most High does not dwell in temples made by hand, and that includes J.W. temples. My best friend since grade school is a J.W. He has been to my house. I have heard his ministry. It does no more for me than any other church. It is false doctrine. Keep the commandments. Keep the Sabbath. There are promises connected to the Sabbath that are not connected to any other day of the week.

            Isaiah 58:13-14King James Version (KJV)
            13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

            14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

            This is what the faith is. If God tells you I’m going to bless you exponentially for observing this day, and you don’t observe it, who is the fool? If you let men change the day God sanctified and blessed for you and you miss your blessings, who is to blame. The Sabbath is not worship, it is an observance. People always talk about the mark of the beast. It is not a physical mark or a chip. When you observe the Sabbath, you cannot buy and sell on this day. When you accept the beast day of worship, which is Sunday, you don’t have those restrictions. Nobody is going to stop you from buying and selling, ever. Those who keep the true Sabbath stop ourselves,

          • Emery

            twr;
            Yeah, it does. They are called the “Israel off God”. They are spiritual Israel rather than physical Israel.
            This expression, found only once in the Scriptures, refers to spiritual Israel rather than to racial descendants of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. (Ge 32:22-28) The Bible speaks of “Israel in a fleshly way” (1Co 10:18), as well as spiritual Israel made up of those for whom descent from Abraham is not a requirement. (Mt 3:9) The apostle Paul, when using the expression “the Israel of God,” shows that it has nothing to do with whether one is a circumcised descendant of Abraham or not.—Ga 6:15, 16.

            A quote from your post: “Christianity, Islam, Mormon and J.W. are alternatives to what God was offering.” Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism are RELIGIONS. God said all religions are false and works of the flesh and Babylon the Great. God’s witnesses are not any organized religion of man. No church, doctrine, clergy, collections, or anything else found in Christendom. Especially no idols and pagan holidays as those found in all Christendom religions. And they don’t disobey God with regards religions, or anything else for that matter. Christendom may be based on obeying the ten commandments, but Christianity is not. It is obeying ALL of God’s commands, not those found in the ENDED Law Covenant. The principles found in those 600 plus commands in the ended law covenant are also adhered to by God’s witnesses, but not because we are COMMANDED to obey them, we do it because we love God. We obey the commands of Jesus as well, because they ORIGINATE with God. Jesus did NOTHING of his own originality, but he did all of the things his Father sent him to do and teach. All of them originate with God, not Jesus. Jesus was the messenger. The teacher. The ransomer.

            God’s witnesses don’t have churches OR temples either. They have meeting halls where we study and teach and sing and praise Jehovah and organize field service to preach the Kingdom message.
            AND YOUR “friend” is not part of a “church” twr, he is part of the Christian Congregation Jesus started in 33c.e. And again, the only “doctrine” any witness of God believes and teaches is that found in the inspired word of God. God’s word is not “FALSE DOCTRINE” as you REPEATEDLY and falsely claim twr. It is the ONLY TRUTH anyone can find. I don’t understand why you continue to say the scriptures are “false doctrine”. we are NOT under any command of God to keep the sabbath. That was Law Covenant law, and that covenant was ENDED! YOU are misled. I am not.

  • Pete

    There are many, many weak arguments in this list of “amazing” proofs, but probably overall the weakest is the teaching that says since some details are different between two descriptions of an event, that must mean they describe two different events. For example: “THE BIBLE DOESN’T MENTION A RESURRECTION AT THE SECOND COMING BUT IT DOES FOR THE RAPTURE”.

    Just because a thing isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean we get to create another “thing.” The Bible has to be read as a single book. There is absolutely no reason the rapture cannot occur alongside of the resurrection and second coming. None whatsoever. Jesus comes out of heaven, calls the dead from their graves. Dead and living are transformed. We all rise to meet Him in the air – ON HIS WAY TO EARTH – and so shall we ever be with the Lord. We usher the King to earth. It isn’t that hard to understand.

    • Emery

      Pete;
      Excellent points. All religions present such weak arguments. All of them. All teach things NOT FOUND in God’s word, but they rationalize and interpret to attempt to prove them. One such “argument” is the one of a “rapture”. It’s a misunderstanding of the most basic principle of the New Testament. It’s a failure to grasp words in black and white, and an attempt to place meanings on scriptures, that don’t exist. Case in point, the scriptures tell us that Jesus will never set foot on Earth again, and that only a select and small group will “metaphorically” rise to meet him in the air. But religion places a different meaning on these texts, that God didn’t inspire when he had them penned millennia ago. Most fail to compare ALL scriptures, to ALL OTHER scriptures to ensure they harmonize with eachother, with the meaning one thinks they have. The “meeting in the air” doesn’t harmonize with thousands of other scriptures at all. However, Satan has misled the entire in habited Earth. MISLED.

    • BethrothedToHim

      Pete: you say “There is absolutely no reason the rapture cannot occur alongside of the resurrection and second coming”.

      I would say that there is a reason why the rapture is a completely separate event, because the church is not subject to God’s wrath, which will be poured out prior to the resurrection.

      • Pete

        BethrothedToHim, fine, but where in the Bible does it actually state the church is taken TO HEAVEN prior to any 7 year tribulation (or time of Jacob’s Trouble, or whatever you want to call it)? Doesn’t it just say that the church will be “kept from” the day of the Lord and from wrath? Can’t God keep people from His wrath while still leaving them on planet earth? Of course He can, and He has. Look at Israel in Egypt. It’s a stretch to say that the only way God can possibly keep His wrath from affecting His bride, is to remove the bride from the planet. Even Jesus prayed to the Father “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” John 17:15. So Paul talks about us going to MEET JESUS in the air to be with Him. It never says we go to heaven.

        All I am arguing is against the idea that anyone MUST go to heaven where God’s throne is, to avoid trouble. Nope. God is perfectly capable of protecting people.

        And by the way. Isn’t it the time of JACOB’S trouble? Doesn’t that mean GENTILES won’t be affected? And don’t you guys insist that Matthew 24 is talking to JEWS and referring to JUDEA? Wouldn’t that suggest God’s wrath is limited to only one part of the world? And Jerusalem in particular, since Daniel 9 talks about “THY PEOPLE AND THY HOLY CITY”?

        You guys are so completely inconsistent in your teaching it’s hilarious. You hate talking about it, because you know it. Deep down, you know your system is a farce.

  • bremertonchristian

    Question for pre-tribbers: will you receive an implant or mark in your right hand or forehead that in some way is connected to buying or selling? If you say “no”, why not? By your logic it can’t be the mark because you won’t be here. If you say “yes”, why? I have been asking this question for almost two years now, here @ NTEB, and no pre-tribber will answer. My brother and I were raised eternally secure, kjv only, bible believing christians. He is still pre-trib, I am not. Nothing else has changed theologically. We both believe salvation comes by grace through faith, always has, always will. At least he had the courage to say to my face that he can take the mark and still be saved because of eternal security. SCAIRY. These two camps won’t reconsile until one or the other happens, (pre-trib rapture or anti-C reveals). Please answer the question to yourself. Resolve yourself now not to take any mark or implant in your right hand or forehead fore any reason. My final thought is according to the author there is a time coming when John 3:16 will be false. That’s right … that whosoever believes in Him shall not perrish… Folks, can any of us really say John 3:16 will be null and void because God will be requiring a faith plus works salvation. Really? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, past, present, future. P.S. I am not a poast-toastie, I am an eternally secure bible believing christian. Thanks for your efforts NTEB, God bless.

    • Pete

      I am not a pre-tribber, but I would accept an implant in my right hand or forehead if it saves me money, saves me time, or causes my life to improve in some way. It would have to be a huge benefit because the idea of an implant grosses me out.

  • Dan
    • DC

      Good article. I like BIN. Do you think the rabbi was defying Bibi or just wanted to pray one last time, like the title says? I think the rule is bad anyway. Anyone should be able to pray. I do think it’s a sign of prophecy. So many preparations for the 3rd Temple, incl. red heifer, that it’s going to happen, no matter how many cultists want to say otherwise. Question is, will we be here or is it the AC that gives the Jews the right to build it? I forget.

      • Dan

        DC, it is a good question will we be here? I suppose it depends on who you ask. I believe there is absolutely no doubt we will know when it

        happens. IMHO the bible is not clear as to when the rapture occurs however if I had to root for one I pick before TSHF please.

        As for this rabbi I believe if allowed ; he will humor these people all the way up to restoring the Temple mount. There are more articles on

        Glick and he doesn’t even try to hide who he is because of his integrity. However, he is a wanted man so he may be killed before anything

        happens but let’s hope not .

  • bremertonchristian, I will not be there when the Antichrist forces the world to worship him. I’ll be in heaven following the Rapture. But the Scripture is quite clear about taking the mark of the Beast – “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” Rev. 14:9-11. This is for anyone who takes the mark, no exceptions. We all have ID#s today with SS etc. Thankfully so far, they are not asking us to worship them. That’s where those who become Christians during the tribulation must draw the line.

    • bremertonchristian

      Bill: thanks for talking to me, but you haven’t answered the question. Blessings bro!

  • Dan, the 7-year tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation (AC) confirms an agreement with many concerning Israel but he breaks the agreement after 3.5 years by causing the sacrifices to cease (Dan. 9:27). He is very much involved in temple worship Matt. 24:15 and 2 Thes. 2:3-4. So it’s logical to assume he will be instrumental in building the 3rd temple. No we won’t be here when that happens because the “restraint” (2 Thes. 2:6-9) is removed before the AC can be revealed. Since we’re part of the restraint, we’ll be gone before the AC rides out on his white horse in Rev. 6:2.

    • DC

      Good responses to my question, both Dan and Bill. Thanks. It is all interesting that things are “in the works” because they would have to be for so much to happen in a relatively short amount of time (though it won’t feel short to those who have to go thru it!) Jack Kelley always said you can almost hear the footsteps of the Savior….we’re that close! Bless you both!

    • Dan Quixoté

      Bill James – Are you sure we’re the restraint? I was taught that in our denomination as a kid, but when I examined the matter for myself about 30 years later, the Word suggested to me that it is Michael the Archangel. I’ve also heard people teach that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. But I’m just not seeing direct textual support for the Restrainer being the Church or the Holy Spirit. The KJV and source texts nominate for me Michael in Dan 12:1, who in Revelation goes to fight a war in Heaven, and the Greek pronouns in 2 Thess suggest a discrete singular and not collective being, who is physically (perhaps dimensionally too) relocating. Paul’s Greek of 2 Thess tells me that the Rapture they were worried about having missed won’t happen until after 1) the great apostasy of the Church (already started, CHECK), 2) the Restrainer exits from being in the midst of affairs on earth (hasn’t happened yet, I hope), and 3) AC is revealed (thankfully not yet). I’m not super invested into this position, just what I find when I go digging.

      • Dan

        Bill , DC , this is just one example by Dan Q of a possibility as to when the rapture will occur and is absolutely plausible . Jesus himself said

        only GOD knows meaning Jesus didn’t know. So, if Jesus didn’t know why would paul or any of the apostles know? I mean doesn’t it

        stand to reason that if Jesus said only GOD knows then there would be no revelation given to Paul or the others?

        So, we do have the statement from Jesus “we would be aware when it starts to happen” which is what I’ve always

        said ” when it happens we will know it”. I instead of worrying about when it will happen; try to imagine how awesome it will be

        to actually be part of the generation everyone has been hoping for. Because of this I have no fear and I trust GOD to use me how

        he will.

        • TWR

          Dan,

          The physical church or Christians are not the restraint. The man of sin must be revealed before the spiritual church can be formed. Christianity and religion in general is built on a foundation of lawlessness, Ask Edwitness. He keeps repeating that Paul said the law was abolished. The man who believes the law is abolished becomes the man of sin or lawlessness.

          Ephesians 2:15King James Version (KJV)
          15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

          Some people read, others comprehend. Let’s remove the words LAW OF COMMANDMENTS and comprehend what was really abolished. There were ordinances abolished from the commandments.

          Psalm 147:19King James Version (KJV)
          19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.

          There are statutes (commandments) and judgments (ordinances). Which one was abolished. I believe the story of the adulteress will confirm. Aside from Jesus there was no one that could condemn (judge) her because they all had sin. He said neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more (keep the commandments). Emery said the same thing about the law. We don’t have to keep it. It is an individual choice whether you choose to keep the commandments or not. When you teach people they don’t have to follow the commandments or they were abolished, you are setting yourself and that person up for failure.
          Matthew 5:19King James Version (KJV)
          19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (Sabbath observation), and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

          The true church cannot emerge until we realize we are 100% accountable to God’s instruction. Satan is slowly backing us in a corner with things like gay marriage, transgender legislation, ordaining gay and transgender ministers in our churches when they could easily have their own. God was not playing when he said homosexuality was an abomination. Now, the Pope daddy is pushing Chrislam and integration of world religion. We are supposed to fellowship with people who serve Allah, Buddha and Kali in the temples that are supposed to be sacred and holy to the Most High. When the real church comes on the scene, the world will have to change. It’s either the true church following the commandments of God, or the world that Satan is trying to create. This is going to cause the final conflict. Pretty soon you are not going to be able to be in the world if you are not of the world. It is only us who are restraining. When you come to the realization that God’s wisdom and instruction are for the benefit of all mankind, you will have discovered the faith. That is when the man of lawlessness will be revealed.

          As for your other point, Edwitness said I wasn’t born again because I didn’t believe Jesus was the creator god.
          edwitness, “The main issue however concerning TWR is that he does not believe Jesus is the creator God.

          If Jesus is the creator God, how could he not know? If Jesus is the creator god, what could he have possibly meant by saying only the Father knows? Tends to get confusing when you have multiple philosophies on just who Jesus is

          • Pete

            Dan wrote //when the rapture will occur and is absolutely plausible . Jesus himself said only GOD knows meaning Jesus didn’t know.//

            Jesus never said a word about any “rapture” nor did He say He didn’t know when “the rapture” would occur. He said He did not know “of the day and hour” of His coming. That is, His coming in judgment upon the harlot city Jerusalem and the apostate Jews, culminating with the destruction of the desecrated temple.

            TWR wrote: //If Jesus is the creator god, what could he have possibly meant by saying only the Father knows?//

            Jesus put His humanity on and took off His omnipotence, omnipresence, all powerful persona of God. Jesus could feel pain and had to walk wherever He chose to go. As fully man (and fully God) He chose to set aside things that God knew. We cannot explain this but that’s what Jesus meant when He said even He did not know of the day and hour of His coming.

          • Dan

            TWR I don’t recall having a conversation with you related to your post and I don’t remember talking to Ed either. I know I haven’t

            talked to Ed today for sure. As for the post in general ; you already know we don’t believe the same things so why try?

            Also the links that you gave me in another post to me showed exactly nothing but a really nice web page with information that had no source to back it up. This is exactly what I have been trying to get you to see twr. You’re getting this stuff off the internet and all of it is incorrect.

            This is basic research 101 ( you need to be able to check the information).

            Your getting information off the internet and applying it to scripture . Oddly enough you and the JW are basically making the same

            mistake. You get your knowledge from the internet and apply it to scripture and the JW get their info from the Watchtower and apply it

            to scripture. What a mess !

          • Emery

            Dan;
            “The jw”? Wow, you sure are a haughty dishonest person in the way you post things Dan. I don’t “get things off the internet and post them” Dan, that’s your tactic. I get “things” from over 40 years of scriptural research and study and translating ancient languages. You, however, get YOUR beliefs injected into your brain by others. You seem to have no independent beliefs or thoughts at all, but you PRETEND to. And I don’t get information from a magazine and “apply it to a scripture” either. the Watchtower IS A MAGAZINE and there is a society named the Watchtower Bible and Tract SOCIETY Dan. Your extensive LACK of accurate information and knowledge is amazing. You don’t really know anything accurate, do you? You only PRETEND to. And then you use your PRETEND knowledge to disparage those that DO have accurate knowledge, since what their ACCURATE knowledge is, doesn’t match your FALSE AND INACCURATE knowledge. That is what’s “what a mess” Dan. Just like your posts. A mess.

      • Ron

        Bill is right Dan Quixote This is how the saying goes ( You can’t take the restrainer (The Holy Spirit Indwelt Church) WITHOUT taking All the

        containers (All The Individual Christians In The Rapture)

        You can’t take the Restrainer without taking the Containers!

        Blessings!

        • Dan

          Emery tell me none of this is true.

          As a Jehovah’s Witness, you have been taught from the Bible and the Watchtower organization. You’ve attended numerous meetings and are convinced that what you believe is the truth. You also believe the Trinity is a demonic doctrine and that Christendom is an apostate group preaching a false gospel. Additionally, you are taught the Watchtower organization is the true channel of God’s revelation to His church on earth. You are taught that you are in “The Truth,” but believing it does not make it so. I am sure you agree with this and respond by saying that your beliefs are in agreement with the Bible. After all, you study it deeply and often and have validated your beliefs with the Word of God. I don’t deny that you study, but when you study, you study under the Watchtower’s guidance and allow it to shape your understanding and thinking of the Bible and its doctrines.

          Please consider these quotes from the Watchtower Magazine that verify what I am saying:

          “All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.”1
          “Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible.”2
          In short, you are led by what the Watchtower says the Bible says, but if the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is from God, then . . .

          Why has it made false prophecies?
          Why has it altered the translation of the Bible?
          Why does the Watchtower say that you will fall into apostasy if you read the Bible without the Watchtower? See their quotes.
          Why are you not allowed to examine your own organization and its problems?
          Why does it tell you what to think and do?
          Have you checked the documentation from the Watchtower Magazine? How do you know that the Watchtower is correct? Because it says it is?

          Please don’t be offended by this, but when a group claims to be the prophet of God yet mistranslates the Bible, takes verses out of context, makes false prophecies, and misquotes authorities all to make its position valid, its credibility is lost. It cannot be from God.

          But you will never know that unless you “examine ALL things.” Unfortunately, as a Jehovah’s Witness, you are only encouraged to study what the Watchtower and Awake magazines tell you to study. That means you can’t really check up on its false prophecies on your own. Instead, you must trust what it tells you about its own false prophecies. In addition, you are instructed to not take any literature from “apostate Christendom.” This way, you will have far less opportunity to be challenged, something the Watchtower organization doesn’t want to happen.

          The Watchtower Magazine teaches by asking the questions and giving the answers. Sometimes it even uses a Bible reference (often out of context) to back up what it says. It all looks good and sounds good from your perspective, but it is a false method of study. The Watchtower organization tells you what to think and what to do. If you say that isn’t true and that the Watchtower Organization is God’s organization on earth, then you are simply repeating what the Watchtower tells you.

          The Bible alone is sufficient, but the Watchtower denies this:

          “From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude . . . They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago . . . “3

          What are the apostate doctrines: Trinity? Hell? Jesus is God? Funny thing is that, according to the Watchtower if you study the Bible by itself, you will come to believe these things! Could it be that apart from the selected questions, answers, Scripture quotes, and direction of the Watchtower teaching that the Bible actually does teach these “apostate doctrines”? If you don’t check for yourself and only believe the Watchtower, you’ll never know.

          Do you want to trust your eternal soul to the teachings of several men headquartered in Brooklyn, New York, who claim to be the directors of God’s organization on earth? Do you?

          Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

          • Denise in MI

            Dan, what a good post. Your questions, with a little variation, could be asked of Catholics. Instead of magazines, they have the pope. Just because John Paul II said Mary is co-redeemer with Christ (1992), does that make it true? Where does the bible say to pray the rosary to Mary? Where is there a Purgatory in the bible? Where does the bible say that praying for the dead will get them out of Purgatory? Where does it say that Peter was the first pope, the pope is the vicar of Christ, and he is infallible? If you question anything you are anathema. The difference is most Catholics were discouraged from reading the bible (which is why few will argue much here) and were to take what the clergy says on faith, while the JWs and SDAs do read the bible, but with wrong interpretation. Too much to go into, but a cult is a cult. You can’t convince people who don’t want to be convinced and are too comfortable in their delusion to “hear” the evidence of what the bible actually says (or they’re too scared as many RCC people are–told they’ll go to hell if they question). Bless you.

          • DC

            Dan, that was me, DC. I use the other name on a different site. Also, I checked to leave a reply but it didn’t come up. Still having a few technical problems posting. It’s hit or miss with me.

  • CHAR

    Pete, are you saying you would take the Mark (implant) for food? What????? Well, you will also be signing your death warrant to hell. Did you see the post that Bill James wrote? If not read it, if you did, read it again. You will go straight to hell without collecting $200. Think about that. It’s much better to be ready NOW, prayed up and living for the Lord to be looking for that Blessed Hope than thinking you’d take the implant for food. Certainly not worth it. Be ready NOW, Pete!

    • Pete

      Char, lest you think I am not a Christian, let me clarify. I am saying that I would take an implant if it really made my life easier or more profitable, just like a lot of other technology has. Also it would have to be easily removed if I decided against it later. Right now the concept grosses me out a little but who knows. Revelation 13 speaks about a mark in the metaphorical sense, I don’t believe Revelation speaks about implants or chips. It’s the same concept as Revelation 14:1 where people have the Father’s name written in their foreheads. That isn’t a literal mark, and neither is Rev 13. The whole point there is people worshiping evil. They are cast in the lake of fire for worshiping evil. Not for accepting some kind of technical gadget. Putting an implant in your skin for convenience sake isn’t worshiping evil.

      • bremertonchristian

        Pete. Thanks 4 your response brother, I appreciate it. I applaud your faith. You remind me of my brother. It seems like there are two kinds, one kind won’t take a mark or implant that is in some way associated with buying or selling on the basis that it mite be the mark and therefore is not worth the risk, and the other kind who is so secure in their doctrine that they will risk taking a mark even one that resembles the dreaded mark of the beast for life’s convenience. Amazing! I sincerely hope pre-trib is right I just don’t think it stands up to scripture, but I am through arguing about it. Thanks again Pete for your candid response, Jesus bless bro. My next question is: how does a metaphorical mark or lack there of prevent anyone from buying or selling. Please be sure the bible isn’t talking about two different marks, as in one mark or seal is physical and the other metaphorical. I have listened to several theories about the mark including metaphorical, an armband or patch like ISIS wears (interesting the supposed seal of Mohammed may contain 3 sixes) to an active RFID implant, but who knows. In my opinion the RFID is the most probable since they already use the tech for buying and selling purposes. Anyway, get ready for a war when all of the “ok I’ll take an implant” people try to force them on the “we will never take an implant” people. Please don’t take the mark.

        • Pete

          There is no coming time of great tribulation at the end of the world. The mark of the beast is/was symbolic of following after sin and the world’s kingdoms. As a child of God and bought by the blood of Jesus Christ, by definition I did not take the mark, I am following after Christ and His kingdom. Our 21st century technology has absolutely nothing to do with the book of Revelation.

          Revelation is not a book of riddles that we can “decode” and know the future. It is a letter written to 7 churches in the 1st century, revealing Jesus Christ as the Lamb and King who alone is worthy to judge and make war. And it had to be relevant to the original readers. It was. It described things that would “shortly come to pass” (Rev 1:1) and they were told to “hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein.” Why? Because “the time is at hand.” what time? The end of the Old Covenant age and the beginning of the new.

          Again this was written in the 1st century to specific assemblies. Were they just supposed to ignore what was clearly written in Rev 1:3?

          There is plenty to be on guard about in this world. But not some fantastical imagined Beast / Antichrist man, Satan in the flesh who runs everything. Jesus is the King of this world, not Satan.

          • TWR

            Pete,

            You are absolutely correct about the mark of the beast being symbolic of your personal choice to follow sin and the world kingdoms. The world kingdoms are the beast. These kingdoms are rebellious against God and His instruction (Torah), so they are likened to dumb animals, or beasts. When nations try to establish themselves on humanistic principles without Torah, you’ll notice the LAND VOMITS THE PEOPLE OUT OF IT. Look at the history of the Middle East, or Africa. The land occupied by Russia hasn’t been doing especially well either, as we see Islam expanding there as it has in Africa and Indonesia. Many examples of rebellious kingdoms can be found, and they are usually victims of violence and natural disasters.

            Whatever God establishes, Satan tries to counterfeit. We don’t read and comprehend, that is why people are looking for a physical mark.

            Deuteronomy 6:8King James Version (KJV)
            8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

            In your forehead represents choice, and your hands represent your works. This is what God instructed Israel concerning his laws. If you understand that, then you can solve the mark of the beast riddle. Those who have chosen to follow the true God and Messiah and keep his commandments observe the Sabbath. A tradition of the Sabbath is we do not buy or sell anything on God’s Sabbath (7th day, Saturday). We that don’t have the mark of the beast prevent ourselves from buying and selling. The rest of the world that follows the beast system of Sunday worship and Pagan holidays will always be free to buy and sell as long as they have the means.

            The mark of the beast is nothing new or futuristic. Every since Constantine declared Christianity was the religion of Rome, pagan customs were blended together with the true faith (syncretism). Everything God commanded to be observed was eliminated, and not a shred of Jesus culture was tolerated. Christianity was a convert or die proposal, even for Torah observant Israelites.

            Psalm 83:3-4King James Version (KJV)

            3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.

            4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

            The only way they could cut Israel off from becoming a nation again was to keep them as well as those who are grafted in a state of apostasy. As long as Israel obeyed the commandments and kept the feasts, God was there. The falling away and the mark are not future prophecies.

          • bremertonchristian

            Pete: thanks again for talking to me. You have given an interesting take on your view of revelation, a view it seems that all that was prophecies in Rev has been complete. I have considered that angle before and I do believe much was full filled in the first century, however, you have not answered my second question (how does a metaphorical mark dictate real buying and selling?). As a student of this website and different interpretations I have heard teacher Grider ask others of a similar view “when did 100lb burning hail stones come down”,or a flaming mountain hurl into the sea obliterating 1/3 of the ships? Please explain if you can the exact fulfillment of all of revelations prophecies. Thanks again for your dialog, I am still learning.

    • Dan

      @ Pete Jesus said he did not know when these things will happen. Meaning all things signalling the end of the age including the rapture.

      And then Jesus went on to say not even he knew the day or hour only GOD knows when this will begin. Mark 13: 30

      Jesus’ emphasis that he is coming to do these things is last which is at the end of the passage

      Granted I’ll concede that Jesus’s coming both with the rapture and in glory with his church are all endtimes occurrences.

      Pete said: Jesus never said a word about any “rapture” nor did He say He didn’t know when “the rapture” would occur. He said He did not know “of the day and hour” of His coming. That is, His coming in judgment upon the harlot city Jerusalem and the apostate Jews, culminating with the destruction of the desecrated temple.

    • Dan

      Thanks Denise in Minnesota. As for the RCC it is a shame as I believe there are thousands of sincere people who want to serve GOD in the

      RCC even despite knowing the history. I expected there would be a large # of members who would leave after hearing about the

      rampant raping of children. But, all I get when talking to them is excuses and denial . It’s disappointing.

  • Dan, I didn’t say we ARE the restraint only that we who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit are part of the restraint. Satan can’t be restrained by anyone but a member of the Godhead i.e., the Holy Spirit. Even Michael the archangel couldn’t restrain Satan without calling on the Lord. Jude 9 – “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

  • bremertonchristian, I’m still not sure what your question is. Suffice it to say that those who refuse to take the mark will not be allowed to buy or sell. The IMF has in its’ power today the ability to shut down any financial transactions of anyone in the world. Have you heard of the computer in Brussels nicknamed the “Beast” that has personal financial information on everyone in the world that does any kind of banking? The Scripture says – “He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to RECEIVE THE MARK on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could BUY OR SELL unless he had the MARK, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. (Rev. 13:16-17). This mark is not a metaphysical mark, it is a literal mark on the forehead or right hand. This mark gives the identity of everyone who wears it. That identity can be used to shut down all financial transactions for anyone who does not worship the beast. The critical factor for the wearer is that he must consent to worship the beast when he takes the mark. ““If anyone WORSHIPS the beast and his image and RECEIVES THE MARK on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath….There is no rest day or night for those who WORSHIP the beast and his image, or for anyone who RECEIVES THE MARK of his name.” Rev. 14:11.

    • Emery

      Bill;
      Nothing indicates in the scriptures that the mark is physical. Everything indicates that it’s not. It is the acceptance of the world, as ruled by Satan, as it is right now, and has been since the Garden of Eden incident. Acceptance of the world’s desires and practices, beliefs and religions and politics and war and entertainment and governments is the “mark of the beast”. Jesus taught constantly that his followers MUST be NO PART OF THE WORLD, and the reason is that everything that makes up the mark of the beast is included in the “works of the flesh” taught in Galations chapter five, and PREVENTS one from inheriting the Kingdom. Jesus was talking to annointed members of the 144,000 who are the only ones who are “born of the spirit” and who go to heaven, but it still applies to what we must adhere to as the “great crowd”.

  • Emery, so anyone who is not one of the 144,000 has the mark of the beast. I’m not a Jewish single virgin man so I’m not part of the 144,000. But I still buy and sell freely. It’s obvious that you are getting your information from extra biblical sources.

    • Emery

      Bill;
      I’ve not read that anywhere, ever, much less in the scriptures. If that were the case, only a few thousand in every generation would not have the mark of the beast. That’s just silly to think that Bill. And the 144,000 are not only Jewish single male virgins either. Figures of speech are not literal in what they say. Figures of speech refer to other things as a comparative way of saying something. The “Jewish single male virgins” are just such a figure of speech. My informatin comes ONLY from the inspired word of God. IF the 5,000 ancient texts from which the Bibles of the world are translated are “extra Biblical”, then okay. However, since that’s where the Bibles of the world are translated from, I don’t think they are “extra Biblical.” And no such thing is “obvious” Bill. Claiming it is does NOT make it so. And everyone, at least in America, for the most part, still “buys and sells freely”. So what are you referring to? Make me understand. And show me where it says only the 144,000 do not have the mark of the beast please. I am very curious.

  • TWR

    Emory,

    I’m on to Dan and his methods. If you have a different belief, he looks for the source of that belief so he can discredit it. I sent him a random link and proclaimed the guy was my teacher and tried to discredit him for a whole week. This time he asked for a link and I sent him several. There was no one to discredit, so he just discredits the internet and any other source that doesn’t agree with him. I don’t combine information from any source with scripture. I believe in the trinity. That is scripture, history and science. If there isn’t a convergence between the three at some level then the bible becomes a literary work. Dan can’t discredit history and science. History says Rome has always been pagan worshippers of the SUN of God. Historically Christianity has been a mix of the pagan religions of conquered civilizations. There is factual and scriptural evidence to support nearly every observance by the RCC, which was passed down to protesting Christians is pagan in origin and has absolutely nothing to do with the Hebrew Messiah. Jesus shares a birthdate with the Sun of God, Dec 25th. Jeremiah 10:2-4 clearly states this is a heathen observance. Their is SUN-day worship and SUN-rise services. There is ISHTAR (Easter) SUN-day. There is no way Jesus was in the earth 3 days and nights and rose on SUN-day morning. Circumstantial evidence has been used to solve many crimes. I don’t need the internet to understand people are being deceived into worshipping the SUN of God who has been called by many names, including Baal, Apollo, Mithras, Sol, Horus, Helios and many more. That is the Babylonian mystery religion. That is the RCC worships Mary as God’s consort and queen of heaven. If anyone can’t see that or doesn’t want to see it, that is fine by me. http://www.markbeast.org/mark-beast-paganism.html

    • Dan

      TWR, I would expect most adult Christians already know about christmas and the sun god and don’t forget easter. None of this changes scripture. Use the bible and I’ll even go so far as to say “use also books written by other Christian theologians ” there are many.

      But that is not what you are doing and I’ve gone over this with you too many times. I want to believe TWR that you are truly trying to understand GOD and in doing so you may make mistakes. But I don’t know what else to tell you.

      I do know GOD has allowed you to become so lost it wouldn’t surprise me if you never realize you are lost.

      • TWR

        Dan,

        Obviously most Christians don’t understand the foundation of the religion is paganism and idolatry. That is obvious from all the Easter baskets, colored (fertility) eggs and Christmas presents under the tree. If God calls this the way of the heathen, what does that say for the religion? None of this changes scripture, but scripture has been altered, names and appearances have been altered. I don’t so much question scripture, but the doctrine, organization and motives (Vatican) and the people who blindly follow. I don’t need to read Christian theologians. I don’t need a blind man’s help crossing a busy street.

        I don’t know how you have so much knowledge about me from a few posts. I’m far more intelligent than I’m getting credit for, and far more intelligent than most. I comprehend the overall theme of the bible, so the stories really are not important. When Israel kept God’s commandments, he was with them. When they disobeyed or fell into idolatry, he rejected them. In the new age of gentile salvation, not only is God’s wisdom being rejected, it is being rejected by those who call themselves the church. It is the doctrine of the church that we were somehow saved from the tyrannical commandments of God. Paul said all scripture is God breathed and profitable for leading man to righteousness. He never saw the New Testament writings. This age of religion does not follow the example or instructions of Jesus. He is the way. People are so focused on trying to get to Christ, but this world is nothing like Christ. For that reason I question the organization that proclaims they represent Christ.
        http://www.reformation.org/abomination-of-desolation.html

        • Dan

          TWR, I believe your intelligence is what makes you so dangerous. But, I have read enough of your post’s to catch you when you make a

          mistake and when this happens you stop posting on that topic. That is what you do. You’ve done it with me and recently with Geoff.

          You never did answer Geoff here and I believe it is because you were proved to be wrong

          TWR
          Common sense tells you if we all have to stand judgment for everything right and wrong, how could all of our sins be forgiven? What would be the purpose of judgment?

          Did God name Jacob Jew or Israel? There are still 12 tribes out there somewhere, scattered all over the globe. Jacob’s trouble is for Israel.

          Geoffrey Grider 23 May 2016 at 12:23 am
          You are confusing SALVATION with SANCTIFICATION because no one ever taught you BIble doctrine. The Judgment Seat of Christ is not a judgement on sin, only saved people are there. It is a judgment on the works you did for the Lord after you got saved.

          A BIBLE BELIEVER LOOKS AT FAITH, WORKS AND THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST: http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/a-bible-believer-looks-at-faith-works-and-the-judgment-seat-of-christ/

          Maybe you should go back and respond to this TWR

          Geoffrey Grider 23 May 2016 at 10:07 am
          Render every man according to his deeds:

          The deeds of the unsaved result in the White Throne Judgment: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Revelation 20:11,12 (KJV)

          The deeds of saved judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” 2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV)

          • TWR

            Dan,

            You are right. My intellect does make me dangerous to some. You haven’t and you are not capable of catching me in anything. Geoffrey made a statement. His statement was not one that required a response. However, who gets judged when and where is not paramount unless you get there. You and your friends who are upset with me are not defending the integrity of the scriptures or the message. You don’t care about context. You are defending your own personal delusions.

            There is something wrong at the very core of your doctrine. It starts with hierarchy that self proclaimed to be the Vicar. When you look at all the molestation of little boys, deification of humans disguised as patron saints and the rampant paganism and idolatry that comes from that organization, if you don’t question what has flowed down, you may lack intelligence. When you have a Vicar calling for consolidation of world religions, that goes beyond corruption of a man or an organization. When you openly defy God and allow what he calls an abomination to operate in what is supposedly his house, that comes from the heart of your philosophical beliefs. God does not change.

            If the Sovereign rejected Israel for rejecting his wisdom (Hosea 4:6), do you throw out that instruction? That is not scriptural integrity. When the Messiah says he was only sent to a certain group of people during a certain age, but everyone disregards his words and tries to make themselves the listener instead of the reader, that is not contextual, it is delusional. You can’t read one or two verses that support your dream and gain context. You might have to read 100. The RCC is clearly worshipping other gods. You can’t separate yourself when you are still using the same doctrine. Just because you don’t call yourself Catholic or do everything they do does not philosophically make you different. You still worship who they worship and serve who they serve. If they are wrong, so are you. Before you talk about judgment seats, I suggest you make sure you are actually serving the judge. Before you start talking about a rapture, I suggest you read Mark 9:1 and consider the possibility it may have happened. Jesus just might have been intelligent enough to know who he was sent to and who he came to save (Matthew 15:24).

  • bremertonchristian

    TWR: the 7th day is NOT Saturday (Saturn’s day). Look it up. Do a study of God’s calender. Then do a study of the Julian calender. At best Saturday is a one in seven chance with lining up with the 7th day on God’s calender. So let me ask you, “if it can be proven (and it can) that you have been keeping an incorrect sabbath, will God aknolage your works”? Study to show thyself approved bro. The sun, moon, and stars were given for times, signs, and seasons. It’s all there in the Torah. Blessings bro!

    • Emery

      In God’s word, a day can mean a lot of different things. For example: In Numbers 14:34 it says a day for a year. And elsewhere in the scriptures, a day can be an “age” of indeterminate length. The days of creation are such days. They are most likely tens of thousands of years each, or even millions of years each. Like grandpa says “back in my day” does not refer to one, single day in grandpa’s life, it means decades ago, and a period of probably decades also. So, no, the seventh day God rested, is STILL ongoing, all day, every day. Every day is God’s sabbath, or day of rest, and we are to “enter into it” with Him. It was ONLY within the ended Law Covenant that the Sabbath week day was to be observed and no work was to be done. That was a LAW that ISRAEL had to obey. We, however, do not, since there exists no Law Covenant that is in force. In fact, Jesus said we don’t have to obey those laws, that the Law Covenant is REPLACED with the New Covenant with “spiritial Israel”, Christians. So who cares if it’s Saturday or Sunday? It’s not something God commands us to observe. Every day is the Sabbath.

      • TWR

        Emery,

        Where were the Israelites in Genesis 2:3 when God blessed the 7th day and made it sacred? Exodus 31:16 says the Israelites shall observe the Sabbath thru all their generations as a covenant forever. Wherever there is an Israelite living on this planet, that means he is supposed to be keeping the Sabbath. When Christ made one man of gentiles and Israelites (Eph 2:15), he invited the gentiles to become fellow citizens (Eph 2:19). This means that covenant was extended to gentiles. The Sabbath was a separate covenant. The Sabbath existed before Israel. The Sabbath was created for man, not for Israel. There was never any such thing as a law covenant. To say that no law exists in the new covenant is ludicrous. Jeremiah 31:33 says in this covenant he would put his law within us, and in our hearts he will write it. To the heathen, it doesn’t matter whether it is Saturday or Sunday. For some, it is just a matter of being taught properly.

        • Emery

          First question, nowhere. Second sentence, do you not know what covenant means? It means contract. Two parties to a contract. One party CONTINUOUSLY broke their end of the contract, Israel. if God kept the contract in place, indefinately, then yes, you would be correct. God had finally had enough and ENDED that contract/covenant. It is therefore ENDED. No sabbath law exists, and no command therefore to observe it is in place any more. A new contract, or covenant is now in place. The New Covenant, and it contains NO sabbath provision twr. No, the Law covenant is not extended to Gentiles, it is TERMINATED, ENDED, FINISHED, KAPUT, OVER, NO MORE. It’s OVER. The New covenant, with spiritual Israel is now in place, and Spiritual Israel is populated with people from ALL NATIONS, not just Israel, and not just single virgin males of Israel as most mistakenly believe. And NO, the Sabbat law was part of the Law Covenant. It’s NOT some separate thing created by God. His day of rest, the “seventh day” or seventh age, is for HIM, not for us as a whole. There was no Law Covenant? I’ve heard it all now twr. OF COURSE THERE WAS. Don’t be foolish. No law exists in the New covenant, just commands and principles of God, and no it’s NOT ludicrous, it’s God’s word. It’s God’s arrangement. Nothing about God is ludicrous. Putting His law within us is a metaphorical reference to our conscience, it’s not literal. And don’t speak of being “taught properly”. I’ve yet to interact with anyone on the internet who was, outside of the Christian Congregation. And I am the only one here from that Congregation.

    • TWR

      bremertonchristian,

      Thanks for the insight. I do know when the correct Sabbath is. It cannot be proven that I am keeping an incorrect Sabbath because there are other ways besides the calendar to calculate the Sabbath. This is how we know Christ was not crucified on Friday. There were two Sabbaths that week. There was a high Sabbath and a regular Sabbath. They had to wait until after the Sabbath to put the oils and perfumes on the body. That is how we know he was crucified on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath. The sun, moon and stars were given for signs and times, but they are still being worshipped to this day. Study to show thyself approved. Blessings bro!

    • Dan

      TWR , are you checking the 2 boxes before posting your comment? Please do if your not.

      So, you tell me I’m not capable of catching you and your defense doesn’t even make sense.

      You’re the one the started the conversation with Geoff by making this statement:

      (Common sense tells you if we all have to stand judgment for everything right and wrong, how could all of our sins be forgiven? What would be the purpose of judgment?)

      And Geoff tells you you’re confusing salvation with sanctification because no one has ever taught you bible doctrine.

      You clearly were wrong and instead of admitting your mistake you instead just left the conversation.

      And you say Geoff didn’t need a response. You are being dishonest plain and simple.

      As for your intellect being dangerous ; it’s not dangerous to me but it may be dangerous to someone like yourself ; who accepts without

      question what they read on the internet. And, there is a brother who comes here from time to time who I worry may become even more

      misguided after seeing your posts. We began our conversation months ago when you introduced a Mr White as an example of

      what you teach. It was only after I looked into White’s history and showed you how fake he is; when you then claimed you didn’t know him

      and he was just an example.

      That’s what gets me with you TWR . You’re obviously well read but you use all the negative history of Christianity to justify an understanding

      that goes against 80% of the US and a large population of the rest of the world who at the very least are following the Gospel.

      • TWR

        Dan,

        You are not Geoffrey. I understood Geoff, even tho we were making different points. My point is simply if we are all going to be judged, we have to have a standard in which to be judged by. If a person has salvation and crowns are the prize, you still nedd to understand the standards by which you will be judged.

        Your goal is to discredit what you do not understand. I gave you the link as an example. I didn’t say he was my teacher. Like a young lady said earlier, if you go by one’s reputation, the Pope and the Vatican should be banned from religion for life.

        There are many red flags when you wake up from the delusion. The first is Jesus stated purpose for coming to this earth.

        Matthew 15:24King James Version (KJV)
        24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

        Does that raise a flag for you? That means I was not sent to anyone else. Then there is a time frame referenced.

        Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
        9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

        How many of you on this site were standing there? Can’t you see how delusional it is to try to insert yourself in a story that has been 95% told? You and your crew getting all Alice in wonderland, but I’m just off the grid. When Jesus telling his disciples on the mount that THIS generation will not pass without seeing all these things fulfilled, were you there? Do you imagine yourself there? I’m not saying all has been fulfilled, but ignoring who he said he came for and the signs of the conclusion of that particular age, which many can be historically verified, shows that people are out of touch with reality. Jesus was telling the churches in Revelation to hang on for 2,000 years. Then, you and your crew try to compare me to Emery? No disrespect but Emery is all alone. If you believe you are the age Jesus was talking about, you, your friends and Emery are more alike than you think. You have delusion, he has delusions of grandeur. I want something so bad, I’m going to read a book and think I’m in it. Who Is instructing you? Internalize the message. When you keep God’s commandments, you have his favor. When you don’t, you get rejected. What some of you are doing is foolish. There is no one guaranteed to live thru tonight. The focus should be on how you live. If you keep the commandments all that other stuff will take care of itself. Heaven and the rapture is the last thing on my mind. I’m focusing on living everyday for God. If heaven becomes your life’s objective, your heart and your motives will never be pure. That is why rapture and end times is so popular with everyone. I focus on pleasing God and let the chips fall where they may.

  • TWR,

    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Christ became our Sabbath…we tried to deal with this in previous posts.

    The mark of the beast spoke of those who chose to hold to the Mosaic law of apostate Judaism and forsook following Christ. They chose tradition and keeping their livelihood (job), over being persecuted by the Pharisees for their faith in Christ. Though the first persecutions were toward the Hellenist Jews, who were scattered and took the gospel to the Samaritans (Shem), then to the Ethiopian (Ham), the subsequent persecutions began to affect the Jews who were more tolerant of the tradition. Paul’s missions were to gather an offering for those in Jerusalem who had not taken the mark of the beast (followed Christ and forsaken the tradition of the law) and were being starved by the temple govt.

    The beast seems to speak of Judaism, the temple system of the ceremonial law (washings and sacrifices, days and feasts). If one follows the law in an attempt to gain salvation, they have taken the mark of the beast, meaning their mind and their efforts are to gain favor with God outside the work of Christ on the cross.

    • TWR

      tiptopsaidhe,

      Comprehension is very important. You are implying a double negative. It’s like Jesus did not come to do away with the law but fulfill. If you say it was fulfilled, they you imply a double negative because that would mean it was done away with. Foreshadow means to give a suggestion of something that will happen in the future. Strong’s #2632 the word judge means condemn. He was saying don’t let anyone condemn your for doing something that will come when the body of Christ reigns. Isaiah 66:23 says from new moon to new moon and Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh will come in to bow down before Jehovah. Christ can only become your rest when you keep his commandments. Like I said, I don’t keep the law as a means of earning salvation. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. That is the difference between works under the law and works of love. Nothing else you said is biblical or historical.

      • Emery

        twr;
        The Law Covenant was a TEMPORARY measure by God UNTIL the messiah’s arrival on the scene. He, the messiah, arrived, and actually DID terminate the law covenant, because of Israel’s CONSTANT rejection of God in favor of paganism, AND their MURDER of prophets, and Jesus. Since the Law covenant was temporary, and was only to take Israel to the point of Jesus’ arrival and ministry, it WAS fulfilled. Fulfilling it, and ending it, ARE two different things, and are NOT a contradiction. There exists not one single contradiction in the scriptures, anywhere. I wouldn’t trust one word of Strong’s, since it’s based totally on the KJV, rather than on the ancient texts, upon which it SHOULD be based. It’s a fraud. Like the KJV is a fraud.

        • TWR

          Emery,

          Very rarely do you say anything that is confirmed by scripture. If God said the Sabbath is a covenant with Israel throughout the generations FOREVER, it believe it means forever. There is no such thing as a law covenant. The covenant was made with Israel in Egypt. It was finalized in the wilderness. The Torah (instruction) is not the law. Have you ever heard of an ordinance? That is what Paul says was abolished. Jesus said heaven and earth would not pass away until the law was fulfilled. That means it has not been fulfilled. You said there is no law in the new covenant, only commandments. Since sin is transgression of the law, I guess there is no sin either.

          Jeremiah 31:31King James Version (KJV)
          31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

          The New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and Judah. This delusional fantasy you have about being chosen spiritual Israelites is laughable. You are either of the houses or a gentile grafted in. You just created a whole new category for your witnesses.

          • Phil

            twr,

            “If God said the Sabbath is a covenant with Israel throughout the generations FOREVER, it believe it means forever.”

            Well, in view of the letters written from the apostles, elders and brethren to the Gentiles in Acts 15, what ordinances do you think apply to a cracker Gentile like myself?

  • Interestingly, the Apostle Paul wrote that Matthew 24:14 had been fulfilled….

    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (G3625) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world (G3625).

    Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    • Emery

      tiptop;
      No, Matthew 24:14 is not yet fulfilled. It is BEING fulfilled currently, but there is a little time left. And please, stop using any Strong’s references, they’re just as bad as the KJV, since the entire concordance is based SOLELY on the KJV 1611 Bible, which in itself is the single most falsely translated Bible translation on the planet.

      The letter to Timothy admonishes the Christian Congregation to CONTINUE to preach the good news of the Kingdom, and to be about it urgently. Once the entire Earth has been preached to, to God’s satisfaction, THEN the end will come. The tribulation and then the culmination of it, the final battle.

  • CHAR

    Emery, your shovel to bury yourself keeps getting bigger and bigger. Nothing scripturally sound comes out of your mouth.Most of your replies to the born again believers is just you trying to convince everybody your’re right (with no scriptural back up). Emery, please read the KJV with an open mind and heart and then come back to this website. Do you ever get up and take a break from your computer? All that know the Lord intimately feel quite sorry for your misguided so called knowledge of the Word. Poor Emery!

    • Emery

      Shovel Char? No. No shovel. And out of my mouth? This is the written word Char. No spoken words here. One CANNOT “speak words” here. It’s type written on a KEYBOARD. I’m not trying to convince anyone “I’m right” either char. You make that up all on your own, as is usual. What I post, EVERYTHING I post, is “scripturally sound” and has TONS to “back it up” as the little kids say. Read the KJV? Again? I have no desire to yet again read the KJV Bible. We re-translated it for three and a half years. Isn’t that enough? It doesn’t compare accurately at all to the ancient 5,000 texts available to us. In fact, it’s only about 45 to 55% accurate. It was CHANGED by King James the First in the late 1500’s and early 1600’s to reflect the beliefs of the CHURCH OF ENGLAND of which he was the head. NOT to reflect the inspiration of God to the apostles who penned those words. He DELIBERATELY mistranslated over 20,000 words so that one reading it would believe what his CHURCH believed, as opposed to what God teaches us. And YOU want me to read it yet again? I think not Char. No point in doing so. I already know exactly what it says. I ALSO know exactly what the inspired word of God says, and the two are NOT THE SAME Char. So you’re asking me to read something that is knowningly false. What would be the reason for that Char? Are YOU trying to deceive me along with Satan, who is “misleading the entire inhablted Earth?” And no, all that know the lord intimately do NOT go to this web site. Only those who are misled into thinking they’re “born again” inhabit this web site Char. They believe that in CONTRADICTION to God’s word. And poor Emery? Oh no, I am so very much more spiritually rich than you or anyone else on this site, words cannot quantify it.

      • Emery, you should research how the 1611 KJV was translated. It’s pretty cool. Scholars in sets of 5, I think, were dispersed to do the work. When they came back together as one body, there were very few differences in their renderings. William Barclay translated it to English with near perfection.

        These changes you speak about are regarding the minority texts, which were summarily dismissed by the 1611 translators due to their mistakes and obvious changes. Those minority texts are the ones being used by the NIV, NASB, ESV, etc. Westcott and Hort were the translators of the minority texts. Neither man believed that Jesus was God, making their renditions heretical.

        • Emery

          tiptop;
          I don’t think I want to do that again either. In college in the middle 1970’s we began studying ancient Koine Greek and how to translate it word for word into English. Couple years later we moved on to ancient Hebrew and how to translate that into English. We then started with the NT and went through almost all of it (we ran out of class time). We compared then what we found first to the KJV. We found OVER 20,000 MISTRANSLATED WORDS. That could only have been done deliberately, by James the First, the head of the Church of England back in 1610 when he learned that the RCC was translating the DR, and he wanted to beat them, which he did. He also removed, 7,606 times, that many occurrences of the tetragrammaton denoting God’s PERSONAL name. So there’s somewhere in the area of 27,606 DELIBERATELY PLACED ERRORS in the KJV. And to top of the whole thing with icing, the Old English, or Victorian English in which it was written was OUTDATED by over 200 years. No one used thees and thous anymore in the early 1600’s. And no one used English in the middle East, much less thees and thous, in the first century. So it’s a pretty bad joke on humanity that so many cling to this faulty scripture translation, and militantly claim it to be the “most accurate” Bible ever, which is actually, the OPPOSITE of what is true. Strangely enough, the KJV is VERY CLOSE to what Constantine, the head of ALL pagan religions in the early fourth century, had assembled as a “Bible” for his newly created “state religion” known as the Roman Church, which was 70 years later re-named the Roman Catholic Church. It is from this counterfeit copy of Christianity that all other sects have stemmed, since they all have most of the same elements to them. Pagan beliefs, teachings,holidays, idols, and icons. The RCC is the FIRST false religion of Christendom, and the FIRST false religion to claim to be Christian, when it’s not. I’ve spent a LIFETIME doing this research. Scriptural comparison of scripture to scripture, and studying of three dozen Christendom religions, up close and personal to boot. I still do most of this research to this day. So, no, I don’t want to “research the 1611 KJV” and how it was translated ever again. I am sick to my stomach just thinking about it. It makes me ill to think so many think it’s the word of God. It makes me even more ill to think that all who are part of the religions of Christendom think they’re Christian. I wish nothing more, besides that the Kingdom come and take over rulership of Earth, than that all learn the TRUTH of what the Bible REALLY teaches.

          • Erasmus was a pretty decent translator, from what I hear. And there were bibles before 1610 that almost identical to the AV. But, it’s good to know that some dudes from the 70s, whose common language was English, did a better job. You should get a copyright deal on all that work you guys did and put out your version of the bible. Everyone else is doing it, and if you put in there that grace means you can do whatever you wish and Jesus will still save you, protestant preachers will utilize it for their worship services. Preachers could choose from the NASB, NIV, ESV and Americandudesfromarandomgreekandhebrewtranslationcollegeinthe70s.

          • Emery

            Uh, no. For the past half dozen years I have been a dedicated ordained minister of God, and doing anything other than what I am doing would violate that dedication to God. I have no intention ever of violating that. I remain no part of any religion, and I will not give anything to any religion, nor will I give any religion any of our research from college, nor from afterward. Doing so would be to support false religion, and would also violate my dedication to God. I won’t set foot into a church, because that as well would be such a violation. None of my current work, nor my past research and study work is for sale or copyright. That would be a violation of Jesus words that “you received free, give free”. I place countless Bibles, tracts, books, brochures, and videos to people hungry for truth about the scriptures and God, and His only begotten son. Especially information about the coming Kingdom rule of Earth, and the elimination of all opposing God. Some are honest and want to know, and to worship God in the manner in which He commands. Most, are not, sadly. None on this blog are, even more sadly. In several years, only six have indicated that they want to know more, and to worship God in the manner in which He commands. Several thousand have threatened to kill me, like those here. Satan is a very busy little boy.

          • Me too then, E. My son played ball with a kid last summer who’s dad was JW. His son’s name was Nicodemus, which led us into a nice discussion of who Nicodemus of the bible was and the difficulty he had with the gospel of Christ and remaining in his position of authority within the traditional temple system. The kid’s dad, part way through the discussion, said exactly the same thing you said…that we was a minister of God. I said “really, I might like to download a sermon off the net and listen.” He said “not like that, I’m a JW and we’re all ministers.” And so ended any credibility he may have garnered up to that point.

            I looked at Colossians 1:14 and Acts 18:18 in the NWT bible. It’s translated from the minority texts. Sorry man, no credibility there either. If you’re sitting on the ultimate translation in your garage or basement from your exhaustive translation endeavor in the 70s, you should petition the grand master of the freemason JWs and aks him if you can submit your copy. The men of the translation committee of the NWT knew less than you do.

            Here’s a good quote…”The self-appointed “scholars” who made up this Translation Committee were: N.H. Knorr, F.W. Franz, A.D. Schroeder, G.D. Gangas and M. Henschel. Aside from President Franz, none of the Translation Committee members knew Biblical Greek or Hebrew and Franz’s ability is open to serious question.

            As for your avoidance of Strong’s, the NWT utilizes Strongs…:”The second quotation in each example is derived from a post-1989 edition of the NWT (WTBTS of Pennsylvania and International Bible Students Association, c. 1984). References to actual Hebrew and Greek words are derived from Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (Thomas Nelson, c. 1990), the Greek-English New Testament (Christianity Today, c. 1975) and Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (McDonald, unabridged ed., n.d.)” You should at least know your history of the doctrine if you’re going to espouse it to others.

            For having been in the JW faith for such a long period of time, you should probably have known much of this already. If it is true you knew, yet remained, then you’re dumber than you make yourself out. If you didn’t know, now you know. No excuses to stay in a cult when it’s been exposed as heretical. The Russell guy missed every single prophecy he spoke. Time to leave the dark side, if God will allow you.

            Your phrase “That would be a violation of Jesus words that “you received free, give free” is telling of your faith. You better hope God doesn’t feel that way about you and the grace He offers you when He draws you out of that nonsense you’re embroiled in. If you have a wife and family, free them from it. They shouldn’t have to suffer for your sins.

            B

          • Emery

            tiptop;
            I think you are confusing a minister for a RELIGION with a minister for GOD. NOT the same things. God OPPOSES all religions of man, and all religions of man OPPOSE God. The religions of the world teach MANY things not found in the word of God, and they use falsely translated Bibles to do it, making what they teach doubly wrong. God said they are “false religion”, and Jesus said they are “works of the flesh”, and again God said they are “Babylon the Great” warning all to “flee” from her. There exists ONE TRUE RELIGION and Jesus taught it in the 3.5 years before his murder by Israel over money. He said it’s the “one true faith”. NO religion teaches anything close to it, and NO two religions teach the same thing. NO religions are approved of by God. ALL of the religions of Christendom contain pagan elements. God indicated many times that anything pagan is “unclean”. God also said “stop touching the unclean thing, and I will take you in”. Meaning that if you CONTINUE to touch the unclean thing, He WILL NOT take you in.

            You said that kid’s father “lost” credibility with you because A) you know nothing factual about God’s Earthly witnesses, and B) your RELIGION fills you with lies about them, and C) all your associates do the same, and D) You have NO first hand credible information from your OWN RESEARCH into the organization and the members and their activities. That research can ONLY honsetly be done on THEIR web site, at their Kingdom hall, or with THEM THEMSELVES. NOT on any internet website disparaging them. Tens of millions of false websites exist disparaging them, because Satan HATES us and influences the entire world in ALL things until the end. He is ruler, god, of this world for a short time more.

  • Emery, you said only 144,000 are going to heaven. So the rest of us “who do not inherit the Kingdom” must be mystically marked by the beast so we can’t buy or sell. Anyway, I think any further discussion will get us nowhere.

    • Emery

      Why do you make such assumptions? I never said that. Inheriting the Kingdom does not mean going to heaven.

    • Ron

      Brother Bill You are NO DOUBT SAVED and wish you would reply to me.

      Read this scripture and who do you see, you are the Church of Philadelphia ( so am I ) ( Church of Brotherly Love)

      Revelation 3:7-9 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true,

      he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

      I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word,

      and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews,

      and are not,

      but do lie;

      ** behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.**

      Who do you see in that highlighted part, not us!

      God Bless You Bill!

      • Ron,
        I erased about eight comments from the visiting cultists to read yours. You are right on brother about the “highlighted parts”.
        Blessings:-}

        • Ron

          God Bless You to edwitness. I never knew what that Scripture meant before until the other day.

          It is a Scripture with a dual meaning 1 one for the past and one for the present.

  • bremertonchristian

    Bill: respectfuly, you are wrong. Can the IMF cancel my cash transaction in Washington state between two private participants. No. My question is will a pre-trib christian willfully receive a mark or implant in their right hand or forehead that is in some way associated with buying or selling? Respectfuly your brother in christ, Curtis.

    • It’s important to know that the pre-trib stuff comes from a commentary written in the 1500s by Jesuit Francisco Ribera. The reformers were accusing the pope of being the anti-christ, so Jesuit Ribera wrote a commentary moving Daniel’s 70th week, of his prophecy in Daniel 9, out to some “future” time. Nobody outside of the RCC recognized the theory until the Scofield study bible picked it up around 1900. Then, Hal Lindsey wrote “The late great planet earth” and then the Left Behind series perpetuated it to the current way of eschatalogical thinking among protestants. When you realize the whole thing was a political ploy by the RCC, you can eliminate it as a theological construct. It’s not biblical.

      • Emery

        tiptopsaidhe;
        Them’s “fightin’ words” on this blog. These people are what they claim to be “born again christians”, and the rapture itself is their holy grail, even though it isn’t a scriptural teaching either. As is neither the “born again” stuff scriptural. In fact, most of their militant protectionist behavior exists to protect non-scriptural teachings. These folks would probably kill you for saying ANYTHING to which they didn’t agree, if no one was watching and you were alone with any of them. I have personally NEVER witnessed as much unChristian behavior and speech (so to speak) anywhere else, and among anyone else, in my life to date. Their reviling (sin) and attacking (sin) threatening (sin) and praying for harm upon me (sin) has no match anywhere at any time. They misunderstand pretty much EVERY WORD of the inspired word of God, and they then interpret (sin) scriptures and apply their OWN meanings to them (sin), and change them (sin) to match their beliefs, rather than changing their beliefs to match the scriptures. Be careful here. They will research you, if they ever get any clue as to who you actually are, will use that information to further attack and revile and threaten and pray for evil upon you. I am truly astounded by them all. All of them.

        • Dan

          Emery , you say all of that and yet here you stay; why? We will not change our beliefs and I think I can get an( Amen )from everyone

          here ; on that. You must be here to massage your ego because all you’re getting is an argument so being oppositional fuels your

          ego. Oh well stay if you must even if it is only grief at least it makes you feel something.

          • Emery

            2 Timothy 4:I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom: 2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

            That “time” when “they will not put up with the wholesome teaching” is RIGHT NOW. Does that answer your senseless question Dan? I hope so.

            I have, to date, had six persons say they would further investigate the truth and to seek it, by posting on blogs such as this one. Almost all on Earth will ignore the “wholesome teaching” as all on this do constantly. But, still, some DO change their hearts and seek to draw close to God. Granted, few are left who are honestly in search of God, but there are some.

  • bremertonchristian

    Emery: the evening and the morning were the first day… Oops meant to say the first 10,000,000 years was the first day. Ya, right ; ) wink wink. The real question is can a sovereign God provide His word to all people through all the ages? Yes. If yes then will/would He. Yes. When ya’ll get done cutting up the WORD, what are you left with? Your OWN interpretation. My philosophy is simple; My omnipotent God preserved His WORD for all to hear so that none can give excuse. Read it and believe it. Ignorance is no excuse for the law. Peace and blessings.

    • Dan

      Emery, are you checking the 2 boxes before you post your comment? If not please do.

      Timothy is referring to the body of christ ; which you clearly state you do not belong.

      • Emery

        Timothy is referring to the 144,000, those with whom the New Covenant was made, and those who associate with them, the “great crowd” or “great flock” with whom the fine shepherd will join them together with the little flock, or the 144,000. All who are “Christians”, not Christendom, religions CLAIMING to be Christian. No organized religion of man is approved of by God. None. It is the great crowd who will be protected during the tribulation and the final battle. Those are the ones who will “never taste death”.

        And your comment about the two boxes doesn’t matter, since Geoffrey has blocked them from being used on my posts, and from anyone replying to my posts. I have to check the blog to see if I was replied to. Or posts I have previous to Geoffrey changing my settings will still notify me. It’s his way of censoring me since I don’t agree with his teachings.

        • Dan

          Emery you’re not being singled out by Geoff. You are just new to NTEB and this happens to me and everyone else. What I do when

          things don’t work is wait then come back as I did in this instance. I got this message at 3p and am just now able to respond because I

          wasn’t directed to this point and I didn’t want to try to find it so I waited and Viola here I am. Geoff has allowed worst than you on his site

          so just be patient and soon you’ll be able to spread your dribble as much as you need to…

  • CHAR

    Okay Emery, I’m going to bite one more time b/c I started it by replying to you, so here goes. Yeah, yuh got me Emery. I’m here to deceive you. uh huh, ya. Someone else beat me to it (your JW teacher) Anyway, back to reality, you said:

    And no, all that know the lord intimately do NOT go to this web site. Only those who are misled into thinking they’re “born again” inhabit this web site Char. They believe that in CONTRADICTION to God’s word. I am so very much more spiritually rich than you or anyone else on this site, words cannot quantify it

    So, you are so much more spiritually rich than we are. Again, I say “POOR EMERY” . So what are you doing on this website if we are all misled, Emery? You better go to another website then that teaches you so much better than we do. Or maybe since you know everything, you may be transported right up to heaven and you can discuss how stupid we are with Elijah.

    Take care. There will be no more comments from me to you AGAIN. Sorry, but you seem to bring out the worst in most of us on this website. Did you notice 99.9% of the people on here do NOT agree with you on your mixed up mess of a doctrine. I think it’s maybe you and twr, so what’s the percentage. Why don’t you go with the majority on this website that are looking for the Blessed Hope and coming of our Lord and Savior very soon!

    • Emery

      Char;
      What is a “JW teacher”? Explain that one to me please. Yes, I, and many like me, ARE considerably more spiritually mature and rich than anyone clinging to a religion that God opposes. It goes without saying. And what makes you think I know everything? Nice compliment, but no, you’re wrong. Only One knows everything, and that’s God the Almighty. And transported to heaven? What is THAT supposed to mean? No one, save the 144,000 are ever “transported to heaven” Char. Not me, not you. Elijah isn’t in heaven. He is dead. And no, I bring out nothing in anyone, even on this web site. It is you yourselves who bring out the worst in yourselves. No one can make anyone do anything. It’s impossible. I have no control over your brain, only you do. I can’t make you raise your arm, blink, breathe, your brain does that. And God’s word is not “mixed up doctrine”. Why do all of you think God’s word is false and mixed up? It makes absolutely NO sense. What have you got against Him anyway? He caused you to become, He feeds you, gives you everything you have or ever did or will, and He sends people to you all the time to try to bring you to Him. But you always reject Him. Why don’t I go with the majority on this web site? Because I would rather go with God, that’s why. I believe only His teachings, not the teachings of men that you believe. And I will NEVER believe the teachings of men, especially the ones you believe in over what God teaches. I cannot do that.

    • Emery

      Char;
      99.99% don’t agree with me? No, it’s the inspired word of God they don’t agree with. That is what I post. Why don’t they agree with God’s word? Because Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth. He misleads using religion, false translations, peer pressure, greed, entertainment, government, and countless other things. The first two are the two most effective methods he uses. That is why God, AND Jesus both said religions are false, works of the flesh, and Babylon the Great, and those participating in them will share in their plagues and punishments. The punishment for sin is death. NOT death AND THEN something else, just death. PERMANENT death without any resurrection. It’s called the “second death” and Gehenna. Removal from God’s memory, which is also metaphorically called “the book of life”. If your name isn’t in it, you’re not going to be resurrected. If you so forcefully reject God’s teachings as you have done and continue to do, your name will not be in that “book”.

      2 Corinthians 4:3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

      The unvelievers are those of the “world”. Those of government, greed, immorality, religions, the desires of the world, and anything else involved in the machinations of Satan’s system of things, since he is the ruler of the world at present. He will continue to rule the world until Satan abysses him. All who remain part of the world do not have the love of the Father in them. They are the ones who will be destroyed in the tribulation and final battle Char.

  • bremertonchristian, I’m sure you know that we are rapidly moving toward a cashless society. Guess why? A pre-trib christian may receive a mark or implant that may be associated with buying or selling but it can’t be the mark of the beast because the AC doesn’t come on the scene until the pre-tribbers are out of here. And we (pre-tribbers) certainly do not consent to worship anyone if and when we do receive a mark or chip. God bless.

    • I think this notion of an anti-christ comes from 2 Thes…

      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
      2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

      Yet, Paul tells the Thessalonians that the man of sin is already at work, during that time…

      2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
      2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

      Paul says he’s already at work, sitting in the temple, showing himself as God…and the Holy Spirit is withholding (restraining) him until he be removed. Paul seems to be talking about the High Priest in Jerusalem (Annas, who died in the 6th month of 66), who was the mouthpiece of God to the Jews. The High Priest was the voice of God to them, much the same way the pope is to the RCC, but he didn’t preach Christ to the Jews, he persecuted the followers of Christ and held to the tradition of the Mosaic law.

      Why would the Holy Spirit be restraining a man that wasn’t alive, or one who wouldn’t show up for 2000 or more years?

      Also, are you aware that the Freemasons are intent on rebuilding Solomon’s temple in Jerusalem? Did you know that the illuminati believe they are the “illumined” ones who will help secure the peace treaty needed to help remove the Dome of the Rock so the temple can be rebuilt in its place by the freemasons? Every piece of Freemason mail has a heading at the top that says “Rebuilding the Temple.” So, why are Christians so worried about the New World Order or the Freemasons or the Illuminati? Aren’t they all working toward the same end as Christians who believe that Daniel’s 70th week hasn’t yet been fulfilled? I’m being facetious, of course. Their will never be another need for the temple. The temple is inside of all those that God has drawn to know His doctrine in Christ. The sacrifices and oblations ceased at Calvary, and will never again be necessary, else Christ’s sacrifice is moot. The temple system is forever dead and gone.

      • Phil

        tiptopsaidhe,

        “The temple system is forever dead and gone.”

        So what’s going on in Ezekiel 40-47?

        • Pete

          Hi Phil, pardon me for butting in. Ezekiel 40-47 is not a prophecy of a time to come. It’s a vision given to Ezekiel to give to the people of his day, with the “blueprint” of the temple that God wanted built. God wanted to show the wicked children of Israel the perfect temple that HE wanted built: Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

          There isn’t anything in Ezekiel 40-47 about the end of the world, a millennium, a kingdom, or anything like that. It’s a blueprint of what God wanted them to build. Dispensationalism has forced these passages into a future 1000 year period. Why, I have no idea. Clearly God has done away with the temple and the sacrifices because of Jesus. For some reason dispies don’t believe that, they want it to come back.

          • Phil

            Pete,

            “Dispensationalism has forced these passages into a future 1000 year period. Why, I have no idea.”

            Well, maybe it has to do with:

            “for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure”.

            But perhaps that’s just metaphorical, and not to be taken seriously.

          • Pete, the Temple Institute in Jerusalem has everything ready to go for the 3rd temple. They have complete architectural plans for the temple, over 50 temple instruments ready including a menorah made from 100 lbs of pure gold over looking the temple site, several hundred Levites trained at an off-site wooden temple mockup, all the intricate priestly garments made, several red heifers that have been examined extensively for one single off-color hair with success, and they have the announced goal of starting construction in the near future.

          • Emery

            Bill;
            Now THAT’S funny. They’re building a physical third temple. HAHAHA!

        • Pete

          Phil, I have no idea what you are trying to say.

  • Ron, yes I am a born-again temple of the Holy Spirit through no merit of my own but by God’s grace alone. My favorite verse in Rev. 3 is verse 10. “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” I will be kept from the “hour of trial to come upon the whole world”. I’ll be with all the other raptured members of the Christ’s body. Incidentally, this hour of trial that comes upon the whole world goes far beyond Jerusalem in 70 AD. In fact, all the apocalyptic events listed in Rev. 6-19 make the events in 70 AD look like child’s play.

    Those who think the idea of the antichrist must come from 2Th 2:3-7, consider these verses – 1John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 1John 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist — he denies the Father and the Son. 1John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 2John 7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. So, It should be clear from these verses that it is the “spirit of the antichrist” that is at work today. The man of lawlessness or abomination of desolation is coming the near future.

    • Ron

      Amen Bill to all you said and Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture. The Church is not seen again in Revelation until we return with Jesus Christ.

      We who are saved hope The Lord will allow us at NTEB to meet at the same location in the clouds, save me a seat near you at the Wedding supper!

      God Bless You Bill

      • Pete

        Ron, sometimes I think you pre-tribbers repeat these silly things just to stir up non-pre-tribbers like me. Sheesh! I really hope you are not pinning your rapture doctrine on stuff like this. Just to pick a few problems…and believe me, there are many more…

        The Bible itself never says Rev 4:1 is a picture of the rapture. So right out the gate, this is man’s interpretation which means it’s open to criticism. John is having a vision of heaven, just like Paul did, just like Elijah did. That’s all we know. There’s no hint of any resurrection here, no changed body. He doesn’t meet the Lord in the clouds. The Lord doesn’t exist heaven.

        “The Church is not seen again in Revelation until we return with Jesus Christ.” By what basis do you make this statement? Because the words “the church” don’t appear in the English language after Rev 3? Well sir, that phrase appears nowhere in the entire book of Revelation (or in the books of 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John and 2 John).

        You then state emphatically that we return with Jesus. I can only assume you mean Rev 19. Problem is, “the church” isn’t mentioned in Rev 19 either, nor in Rev 20 where we supposedly enjoy a 1000 year kingdom. So let me just ask any thinking person, who really cares about the truth: if the lack of the words “the church” means we are all in heaven during Rev 4-18, then why does the lack of words “the church” suddenly not matter at all in Rev 19 and 20? Never mind the fact that Revelation 19 never actually says Jesus comes down to earth.

        Furthermore, “the church” is never mentioned as being in heaven in all of those chapters. Meanwhile, “saints” is used over and over throughout the book, on earth. All the poor pre-tribber can do is change the Word of God and the meaning of “saints” to be “tribulation saints”, not part of the church. Really???? This is a core part of your doctrine Ron?

        Ron has believed this for too many years, he ain’t changing. But to the rest of you who may be reconsidering this: DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BASE YOUR DOCTRINE ON SUCH FLIMSY STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS and ON CHANGING BASIC WORDS OF SCRIPTURE?

        • Ron

          Pete if you had God’s Holy Spirit you would be see and understand these things. I know all about your 30 to 40 of self taught study.

          Not once have you ever included God or the Holy Spirit as who has instructed you in The Scriptures.

          I could write Scripture up here as I do to many others to support our claims and because you lack The Holy Spirit you are blind like many

          other controversial others on NTEB.

          1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

          1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:

          for they are foolishness unto him:

          neither can he know them,

          because they are spiritually discerned.

          I don’t say it to be mean or stand on some moral high ground, I say it in hopes you might finally recognize it.

          Pete time is short, even if you don’t believe in the Rapture. What does God typically establish as mans life time?

          Psalms 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

          You might even die before that and will you still stay stubborn and defiant in light of coming judgment?

          • Pete

            Right Ron. If I were only spirit-filled like you, I could read things in the Bible that aren’t there. Thank you, but no. I will read only the things actually IN the Bible. I will try to avoid listening to what men have created out of their own imaginations. In other words, Bill, I will actually read the Bible literally and take it seriously. Something dispies claim they do, but hardly ever do.

            By the way Bill, you didn’t answer a single one of my points. “I could write Scripture up here as I do to many others to support our claims” blah blah blah this is what you people always say…and you never do. Where on earth could you find a single scripture verse that says “the church is in heaven from Rev 4-19, that’s why it isn’t mentioned in those chapters”? Or a verse that proves “saints” are not people in the church when we read Revelation. Give me a break. These are MAN’s ideas, not God’s.

            And you call me blind??? You aren’t only blind, you are stubborn.

          • Well, the Church is not mentioned on Earth a single time from Revelation 4-19. Chapters 1-3 mention it 7 large times, and then….poof! nothing. Where did it go?

        • Ron

          Pete Quote:”Ron, sometimes I think you pre-tribbers repeat these silly things just to stir up non-pre-tribbers like me. Sheesh!:End Quote

          No one is holding you hostage at this website.

          Geoffrey have you got Pete held hostage at NTEB? No? I didn’t think so.

  • Pete, regarding the temple, how do explain Rev. 11:1-2, clearly in the future.

    • Pete

      Revelation is clearly NOT in our future (Rev 1:1 says the things would “shortly come to pass”). On the face of it, reading Rev 11:1-2 literally, is obviously John’s day. John cannot measure a temple that doesn’t exist. “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles”…this perfectly describes the outer court of Herod’s temple. The Gentile Romans were given that area to conduct business with Jewish people going to temple. The temple was Herod’s masterpiece and a primary center of commerce in those days.

      There is not a single thing in the New Testament about a 3rd temple or a rebuilt temple. Only a destroyed second temple.

      • Pete, the Greek word for “shortly come to pass” is tachos from which we get the English tachometer. If you look up the definition for tachos, you will find that it means “when it starts, it will be over quickly”. Rev. 4-22 hasn’t started yet.

        • Ron

          Brother Bill Thank You for The Bible Lesson!

          God Bless You Bill!

      • Pete, you’ll never convince me that Revelation happened in the past with 100 lb hailstones, all of the sea life dying, a mountain of burning fire falling into the sea, rivers and springs turning to blood, etc. Jesus and Daniel said it will be a time of great distress worse that the world has ever known or ever will know.

        • Pete

          //Pete, the Greek word for “shortly come to pass” is tachos from which we get the English tachometer. If you look up the definition for tachos, you will find that it means “when it starts, it will be over quickly//

          Wrong. First of all, “shortly” is tacheōs, not “shortly come to pass”. And that isn’t what it means at all. It means exactly what it sounds like. Here are some verses that prove this:

          Act 25:4 But Festus answered, that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself would depart shortly (tacheōs) thither.

          1Co 4:19 (PAUL SPEAKING TO THE CORINTHIANS) But I will come to you shortly (tacheōs), if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

          Phl 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly (tacheōs) unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

          There are more. Suffice to say, every time the NT uses the Greek word “tacheōs”, it means exactly what it says. Why do pre-tribbers/dispies get all hung up on this? You guys insist on reading the Bible “literally”, don’t you?

          Why would God use the phrase “shortly come to pass” if He did not want to connote exactly that? Does God use worthless empty words? Do words actually mean things?

          //Pete, you’ll never convince me that Revelation happened in the past with 100 lb hailstones, all of the sea life dying, a mountain of burning fire falling into the sea, rivers and springs turning to blood, etc.//

          That’s because you don’t interpret apocalyptic language correctly (in my opinion). This is all symbolic language and it’s found throughout the Bible. Read Psalm 18 for example, where David is describing God’s deliverance of him from Saul. You tell me if that’s all stuff that actually happened. Revelation is either entirely symbolic or it’s entirely non-symbolic. Geoff happens to believe it is 100% non-symbolic. I find that impossible to be true, but there you go.

          If you think all of the language describes a wooden literal occurance someday, how do you explain this?

          Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

          Yep. All of the fresh water is undrinkable. People last 3-5 days max without water. How can anyone still be alive for the rest of the book?

          If a “third part of the sun was smitten” and goes dark (Rev 8:12) how long do you think life would last? Maybe about 15 minutes and then everything is done, over, gone.

          These cannot be wooden literal things. They have a ton of meaning, but they aren’t what you think. Study the Old Testament since I think 65% of Revelation comes straight from the OT.

  • TWR

    Phil,

    ordinances were abolished. the commandments are not. anything God or Jesus commanded us to do from cover to cover is for the benefit of all mankind.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)

    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    Satan has people believing only one half the book is profitable. All of the commandments of the Torah were designed by God himself for instruction in righteousness. The interesting part about this scripture is Paul, most likely never laid eyes on the New Testament.

    • Phil

      TWR,

      “ordinances were abolished. the commandments are not.”

      Word searches on those categories in Bible Gateway doesn’t really provide cut and dried distinctions between the two.

      ===

      “anything God or Jesus commanded us to do from cover to cover is for the benefit of all mankind.”

      Well how does that work with your appeal to “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”?

      ===

      “Satan has people believing only one half the book is profitable.”

      I’ve never really encountered anyone who believed that. Certainly no one interested in prophecy could. There are all kinds of forecasts about things that have never registered in human history found only in the OT.

      ===

      “All of the commandments of the Torah were designed by God himself for instruction in righteousness.”

      Yeah, but that’s why I asked you about Acts 15. When the rubber finally hit the road in regards to the Gentiles:

      “it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
      That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”

      So there’s the whole summation of the Law, rarefied, clarified and customized for Gentiles. If this was good enough for the Holy Spirit, the apostles and the elders, it ought to be good enough for me. (I wouldn’t eat boudin anyway, red or otherwise; it looks likes like dog vomit.)

      I can appreciate specific issues that Paul or others went on to address. But in my view, the NT is about setting both Jews and Gentiles free, and putting them on a track to exploit being born again.

      • TWR

        Phil,

        Psalm 147:19 says God gave Jacob statutes and judgments. There is a difference or both would not be mentioned. It is the judgments that were abolished. This can be understood in the story about the adulteress.

        Jesus himself said he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. This has bigger implications, but it was God’s overall plan to include gentiles. After the fact, after resurrection he did say make disciples of all nations. I’m not backing off his stated purpose. A small group of you have come at me like I’m insane. Char, Ron, Dan and Ed are comparing me to Emery, saying 99% disagree with me on the site. If that small group is 99%, it is a small site. I’m not taking ridicule from people who believe they are living in a book like Alice in wonderland. If Jesus said he was only sent to Israel, that is what he meant. If Matthew 9:1 said some standing there would not die until they saw the kingdom, how many of you were standing there? If Jesus, in private conversation with his disciples gave them the signs of the end of the age, told them all would be fulfilled before the generation passed away, I’m curious as to how many of you were eavesdropping.

        Christianity is very efficient at selective reading. You give me acts 15, I give you Romans 3:31.

        Romans 3:31King James Version (KJV)
        31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

        Which one is right? They were not asking grown men to get circumcised, that had never been circumcised or follow ceremonial law. The commandments, including the Sabbath were emphasized.
        Matthew 19:17-19King James Version (KJV)

        17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

        When I point this out, you get all kinds of excuses like Jesus became our Sabbath. He was our Passover Lamb but Passover is still observed. You can’t get context from one scripture. I don’t need to debate anymore. I only need point out Matthew 15:24, 18:11, 24:33-35 and Mark 9:1 to understand Christians are delusional. Peter even said the unlearned (not versed in law) would twist Paul’s words to your own destruction. He warned you, he was right and that has not stopped you.

        2 Peter 3:16King James Version (KJV)
        16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

        I’m not the one out here living in left field or a book. If all the commands of the Torah were designed by God for righteousness, why are you calling the laws and saying they are abolished? If God commanded us not to eat the pig or anything from the sea without fins and scales, probably meant he did not make them for that purpose. Why do people believe when Paul said anything was good as long as it was received with thanksgiving, was talking about food? Jews considered gentiles unclean. Peter’s dream was preparing him to accept the gentile Cornelius. Context is kryptonite for Christians trying to understand another culture. Being born again is about being converted from the law to voluntarily keeping the commandments. There is only on soul converter.

        Matthew 18:3King James Version (KJV)
        3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

        18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

        19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

        Psalm 19:7-8King James Version (KJV)

        7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

        8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

        Notice he did not say judgments. Those were abolished (Ephesians 2:15).

        If what you are interpreting about Paul is true, then that makes Jesus a liar when it comes to keeping the commandments. This is what I mean by scriptural integrity.

        • Phil

          twr,

          “Christianity is very efficient at selective reading. You give me acts 15, I give you Romans 3:31.”

          Well, you can’t pit one against the other. The Acts passage is very lucid, but you seem to want to dismiss it. I guess you have to.

          On the other hand, I think you are misunderstanding what Paul meant when he wrote:

          “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

          That doesn’t advocate anyone trying to live according to the law at all. Just a few verses earlier he explained both the shortcomings and the value of the law:

          “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

          In other words, it makes you and I aware that we are failures, but it cannot make us not a failure.

          The Lord gives us wide latitude, and accommodates all levels of maturity. Some people feel the joy of liberation, and some just cannot. But He is patient, and kind….He knows that he is dealing with children.

  • Pete, you say that the phrase “the church” doesn’t appear anywhere in the book of Revelation. It’s obvious that you haven’t read it because the term church or churches appear 29 times in Chapt. 2-3 in my Bible. The myriads in Rev. 4:8-12 include people from every tribe, tongue, people and nation who are in heaven following the rapture. I think it’s pointless to argue with those who dance around the truth without accepting it.

    • Emery

      He’s right. In fact it doesn’t appear ANYWHERE in the scriptures. The ancient Koine Greek word “ecclesia” translates to congregation, not church. The KJV Bible has it totally mistranslated as “church”.

    • Pete

      Bill, you can nitpick about English words if you want, but the point is that the worldwide church is never actually addressed or mentioned in the book, only local assemblies. John wrote the entire book of Revelation to 7 churches in the 1st century.

      Of course you avoid the REAL issue, which is that the silly logic of pre-trib with respect to the word church cannot stay consistent without messing your entire story up. Perhaps you can explain why we are all supposed to believe the church is in heaven from Rev 4-19, even though it is never stated as being there, and it isn’t mentioned in Revelation 19 or 20 yet we are somehow supposed to assume it’s included in any of those accounts???

      Using the strict text of Revelation, that is. Stay consistent.

      • Emery

        Pete;
        NO!!! John wrote those letters to separate CONGREGATIONS, not CHURCHES. In the scriptures, the word “church” does not appear even once. It DOES appear in the KJV though. James the First CHANGED the word “ecclesia” to church when it means CONGREGATION. He wanted all to believe that churches were mentioned in God’s inspired word, when God NEVER inspired any word to be written at all, that translates into English as “church”. MANY words are DELIBERATELY mistranslated, by James the First, in the KJV Bible. It’s very inaccurate and is, essentially, NOT the inspired word of God at all. It’s the word of James the First, King of England and head of the Church of England in the late 1500’s and early 1600’s.

        • “Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write”….see what you miss when you don’t have God’s preserved word as found in the KJV? You miss a LOT….

          • Ron

            John 9:40-41 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

            Amen! Of the Church…..

            see what you miss when you don’t have God’s preserved word as found in the KJV? You miss a LOT….

            God Bless You Geoffrey!

          • Pete

            //Well, the Church is not mentioned on Earth a single time from Revelation 4-19.//

            It isn’t mentioned in heaven either.

            //Chapters 1-3 mention it 7 large times, and then….poof! nothing. Where did it go?//

            The words don’t appear in the text. Doesn’t mean the church “went” anywhere. And you still haven’t told me why you think the church is present for the events in Revelation 19 and 20, when it isn’t mentioned there.

            Can you tell me why “the church” isn’t mentioned anywhere in the books of 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John and 2 John? Did it “go somewhere” during that time too?

            You guys need to come up with a far better argument than this to rest your claims upon.

          • Tommy

            Geoff,
            God’s preserved word as found in the KJV?
            I also am KJV only and believe in the pre-millennial second coming of Jesus Christ and the pre-tribulational rapture of all true Christians. Although I do not always agree with what Pete says,I have to agree with him on this issue. I believe that the Bible must be interpreted literally to be properly understood, except in passages which clearly state that they are symbolic or that they are parables.Some Christians have noticed the differences between the doctrine presented to these seven churches and the doctrine in the epistles of Romans-Philemon written by the Apostle Paul.
            Seven times in chapters 2 and 3 we see statements regarding “Him that overcometh”. Clearly, those who overcome will have eternal life. Are we supposed to be happy about being told that we must do the first works in order to be able to eat from the tree of life? Certainly not.
            And you … hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses. Col.2:13
            Also, why would our Lord Jesus Christ tell us that if we overcome, we can sit with Him in His throne? We are already seated with Him, as Ephesians 2:6 says, “And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
            The entire book of Revelation, including chapters 1-3, is deeply rooted in Old Testament prophecy, and I know you believe Rightly dividing the Word is an indispensable key to proper understanding of the Bible.

  • DC

    Dan, sometimes the Leave a Reply button doesn’t work. I’ve even checked it to respond to something and NOTHING happens. MRH said that after 4 posts to one person it stops showing up. It’s a Word Press limit. I just tried to post to you guys and got a 503 error. I hop that doesn’t mean the firewall notice is coming next. It happened to me twice in one week. Then I could only post with old email. Comment box is supposed to be wide but it’s long and skinny. Name and email were side-by-side and now they are long & skinny & beneath each other.
    Emery, if Geoff wanted to block you he’d let people know. I had someone recently pretend to be me and they were leaving very dirty, sexual posts in my name. Geoff was not shy about blocking that person. Skywatcher57 is not getting the notices, either, and he’s barely been on. It’s a Word Press glitch, not Geoff. We all have to be more patient and less paranoid. With computers come glitches. Let’s just hope they don’t take over the world! 🙂

    • Dan

      DC you’re right about the glitches and if you’ve been here awhile know that patience is the best way to handle it. Were you here when this site

      was revealing everyone’s email? Crazy crazy ! People were posting as someone else like it was the wild west and Geoff barely made a peep

      to stop the anxiety. I expect Geoff’s got bigger fish to fry than to worry too much about the issues that sometimes get bigger than what they

      are on here. From what I can tell there are still glitches so I hope Geoff spends his whole weekend trying to fix this (Laugh) yeah right ! : )

  • Paul said it was fulfilled, Emery. I posted his words for you to read. They are clear.

    • Emery

      Not so.

  • Emory, I’m very much aware that the Greek is ecclesia which means assembly, congregation or church. Big deal what’s the difference?

  • To Bill from Emory;
    Now THAT’S funny. They’re building a physical third temple. HAHAHA!
    To Emory – Check it out for yourself at – http://www.templeinstitute.org

    • Emery

      Bill;
      Sorry, not what you wrote as per se, but that they actually think they are going to build the “third temple” that the scriptures speak of. Especially when that temple is not a physical temple. It’s in the “Israel of God”. It’s a metaphor. A figure of speech. The temple the scriptures speak of is not a real brick and mortar temple.

      • TWR

        That’s exactly what I’m talking about when it comes to eschatology and Christian understanding.

        Acts 7:48King James Version (KJV)
        48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

        What difference would it make if they built a third and fourth temple.

        2 Thessalonians 2:4King James Version (KJV)
        4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

        Where is the end time temple of God?

        Matthew 23:38-39King James Version (KJV)
        38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

        39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

        How many Christians are out there looking for a third temple?

    • Ron

      You are so right Bill. All one has to do is go to the temple institute they have all the materials and red heifers are being bred at a secret location in New Jersey for the necessary ashes to cleanse the temple implements.

      Did you read Bill how the UN is now declaring the Western Wailing Wall on the Temple Mount to be muslim now.

      Let us see how are country gets slammed for this one like we have every time we shove a treaty down Israel’s throat or divide her land.

      God Bless You Brother Bill!

      • Pete

        They can build 100 temples over there and it doesn’t change a single thing about prophecy or about what God’s word says.

  • Emery, It’s not a metaphor in Ezek. 40-48; Matt.24:15; 2 Thes. 2:3-4; Rev. 11:1-2. Yes, born-again Christians are told that they are the temple of God but unbelieving Israel does not recognize that truth so they are going to build a 3rd tribulation temple in unbelief and later a millennial temple that is much larger than either the first or second temple. In the millennial temple, they will be doing sacrifices to remind them of the terrible cost that their Messiah paid on the cross to redeem them both individually and nationally.

    • Emery

      Indeed the third temple is a metaphor, but the Jews of Judaism, which is the religion Israel created after Jesus’ death and ending of the Law Covenant, totally reject Jesus, and all of the scriptures inspired by God to the Christian writers. They think, I suppose, that if they ignore it, that their murder of Jesus won’t have really happened, and their rejection of God in favor of pagan idols can be swept under the carpet. it didn’t happen in their absurd eyes. God DID say they were “stiff necked”. That contract between God and Israel was only a temporary measure, by God, to allow Israel to so to speak “attone for sins” until the messiah, that they murdered. Strange bunch of folks.

      • TWR

        Emery,

        I was trying to look up the law covenant you were talking about. I couldn’t find it anywhere in the bible.

        Jeremiah 31:31-33King James Version (KJV)

        31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

        32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

        33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

        It seems like they were both law covenants. The only difference was where the law was written. Why would God make a new covenant with the people that murdered his son? That does not make sense.

        • Emery

          twr;
          What are you talking about? You have no recollection of the covenant Jehovah made with Israel? The 600 plus laws He gave them, which include the ten commandments? Incredible. The New Covanant is not a law covenant. Luke 22:19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body, which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf. 2 Corinthians 3:4 We have this sort of confidence toward God through the Christ. 5 Not that we of ourselves are adequately qualified to consider that anything comes from us, but our being adequately qualified comes from God, 6 who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive. Hebrews 8:7 If that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second. 8 For he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! The days are coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 9 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not remain in my covenant, so I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah. 13 In his saying “a new covenant,” he has made the former one obsolete. Now what is obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.
          9 For its part, the former

          None of this is familiar to you? I find that hard to believe.

          • TWR

            Emery,

            What law was written in our hearts? How many laws are there? I think there is only one.

            1 John 3:4King James Version (KJV)
            4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

            If the definition of sin is transgression of the law, can there be more than one? What law was Paul saying we should establish? Is there a translation problem on what is the law and what is Torah (instruction)?

            Romans 3:31King James Version (KJV)
            31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

  • TWR, the verses you found in Jer. 31 reflect on the fact that Israel will repent in the near future. Zech. 12-14 makes it very clear. One-third of the Israelites will be refined by fire like silver and gold. In that day, they will look upon their Messiah whom they have pierced and mourn as if they were mourning over their first born son (Zech. 12:10). Romans 11 makes it very clear that God has not given up on Israel but rather has set them aside for nearly 2000 years. Israel will be taken up again when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in Rom. 11:25-29. The fulness of the Gentiles will happen at the time of the Rapture.

    As I pointed out earlier, a 3rd and 4th physical temple will be built in Jerusalem maybe sooner than you think, see –<www.templeinstitute.org>

  • Emery

    twr;
    You are free to believe whatever you want. I, on the other hand, believe the inspired word of God, which is NOT the KJV.

  • Ron, yes I did read about the UN. They are playing with fire. The UN is asking Israel to go back to the pre-1967 borders which means they give up the temple mount. This is what Joel has to say – “In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and DIVIDED UP my land.” (Joel 3:1-2). The Lord is going to destroy all nations first, because they have scattered His people Israel and second because they have DIVIDED UP My land. Again in Zech. 12:9, “On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.” They Devil has been trying to destroy Israel since the Garden of Eden. Why, because the Messiah has come through Israel and the entire Bible was written by Jews. But remember the Lord said He would bless all the families of earth through Abraham (Gen. 12:1-7) and that He would give them the land forever (Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 15:18)

    • Ron

      Brother Bill yes indeed, look what Bush did during his watch as president and we got the storm of the century which destroyed his vacation home.

      Satan has to be the conceited and vain cherub to ever exist. How can anyone think that if God created you, when you never existed before

      and then you watch him create The Heavens and The Earth and all that is there in, that you will be able to defeat Him in any way fashion or form?

      Now that is vanity, foolishness, and just plain stupidity!

      We are going home soon!

      God Bless You Bill!

  • TWR

    Phil,

    There is not one person out here who understands the difference between the law and the commandments. The Israelites were keeping the commandments because of the law. The commandments are not the law. The commandments were kept as a means of obtaining salvation. Christ provided a different path. The law was no longer capable of providing salvation, but keeping the commandments because you loved Christ and believed in his sacrifice was.

    John 14:15King James Version (KJV)
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    There are many Christians who go to church faithfully and pay tithes that are not part of the new covenant because they believe it is their ticket to heaven. That is works. Anything you do that is not about pleasing God, but there is an expectation from God is works. When the preaches says sow a seed in my ministry or what you give, God will give it back tenfold, that is the very definition of works. Keeping the very same commandments because you want to please God and you have faith they will make you a better person is not keeping the law

    • Phil

      twr,

      “The commandments are not the law. The commandments were kept as a means of obtaining salvation.”

      No. Sorry twr. I know you are an anxious and committed servant, but spiritually dead men keeping the commandments could never give them salvation. The ten commandments were given to people who had just been released from bondage. The decalogue is a set of reasonable rules telling men how to stay free in this life.

      ===

      “Christ provided a different path.”

      There has never been a path to the Father that the Lord Jesus did not pave. OT saints looked forward to the atonement their Messiah would provide, and we look back on the reality of the cross. All the feasts, and all the sacrifices and offerings were shadow pictures of Him, and what He would do on our behalf. Salvation is an all-God show, conducted between the Father and the Son, and we are gifts to the Son. He gets all the credit, and we are His prize.

  • twr

    Phil,

    Only your interpretation of Pauline doctrine gives you wide latitude.

    Christians value their interpretation of Paul over what the Messiah himself had to say, as if something changed.

    • Phil

      twr,

      “Only your interpretation of Pauline doctrine gives you wide latitude.”

      No twr, I don’t have to interpret anything. All I have to do is read. Let me show you:

      4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
      5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
      6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
      7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
      8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
      9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
      10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
      11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
      12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
      13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

      This is about the mature and the immature. The liberty belongs to the mature, but so does the responsibility, and the discipline. It is not about law, or legal issues. It is about sensitivity and wisdom in doing the work of the Lord.

      “All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.”

      “All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.”

  • TWR

    Phil,

    You are wrong. There is evidence that the commandments were given to man long before Israel. Didn’t Cain sin by killing Abel? There were just no sin ordinances before Israel.

    Romans 5:13King James Version (KJV)
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    The commandments existed. Sin existed. Until the ordinances were added to ensure Israel kept the commandments, there was no law. Righteous people kept God’s commandments on faith. When those sin ordinances were abolished (Eph 2:15), we reverted to the faith system. There is proof of the ten commandments and more in the Egyptian system of the 42 laws of Maat. The different path provided by Christ is the faith system of keeping the commandments voluntarily without expectation of salvation or reward. Why did he say if you wish to enter life, keep the commandments. I just wish that once somebody could explain that to me. Did that change after he died?

    Matthew 19:17-19King James Version (KJV)
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Am I crazy, or does it sound like he is repeating the Ten Commandments? Christ provided a different path? So, it is ok to kill, steal, commit adultery and worship other gods? What path is that?

    • Phil

      twr,

      “The different path provided by Christ is the faith system of keeping the commandments voluntarily without expectation of salvation or reward.”

      Oh no. Good gosh, twr. The path He provided was to let Him do all the work. Our work is fabulously simple. Look right down the gun barrel at it:

      “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

      Now why would you resist that? We cannot atone for our sins with our performance. He did that, with His performance. He was the only Person who was ever qualified to say “It is finished” because He finished it. It isn’t about you and your work…and it sure as hell isn’t me and mine. It is about Him. He gets all the credit. He is the only One who can boast about being a Savior.

    • Phil

      “The different path provided by Christ is the faith system of keeping the commandments voluntarily without expectation of salvation or reward.”

      Oh no. Good gosh, twr. The path He provided was to let Him do all the work. Our work is fabulously simple. Look right down the gun barrel at it:

      “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

      Now why would you resist that? We cannot atone for our sins with our performance. He did that, with His performance. He was the only Person who was ever qualified to say “It is finished” because He finished it. It isn’t about you and your work…and it sure as hell isn’t me and mine. It is about Him. He gets all the credit. He is the only One who can boast about being a Savior.

      • Ron

        Phil Quote:”Now why would you resist that? We cannot atone for our sins with our performance. He did that, with His performance. He was the only Person who was ever qualified to say “It is finished” because He finished it. It isn’t about you and your work…and it sure as hell isn’t me and mine. It is about Him. He gets all the credit. He is the only One who can boast about being a Savior.:End Quote

        AMEN A MILLION TIMES ON THAT PHIL!!!!!!!!!!!

        Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing,

        and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

        and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

        And also why would they resist this too? Reprobate?

        God Bless You Phil!

        • Emery

          Ron;
          Are you attempting to say that Jesus attoned for his sins with his performance? What does that even mean? To begin with, Jesus NEVER SINNED. Not once, ever.

          • Ron

            “To begin with, Jesus NEVER SINNED. Not once, ever.” NO KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            DON’T CALL ME BLASPHEMOUS, WHEN JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT SCRIPTURE IS.

            THE LORD JESUS CHRIST MY LORD AND SAVIOR DEFENDS ME AND MAY HE SEVERELY REBUKE YOU EMERY FOR YOUR

            OWN BLASPHEMOUS FALSE PROPHET WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Emery

            Ron;
            Stop trying to yell and say things that are false, and you know they’re false. I quote YOUR post: “We cannot atone for our sins with our performance. He did that, with His performance.” According to that quote, you are saying Jesus atoned for his own sins with his performance. Maybe you didn’t INTEND to say that, but that is what it says Ron. And absolutely NOTHING I have EVER posted is “blasphemous”. I didn’t say you were blasphemous, and yet you claim I did which ALSO is false. God HATES liars Ron. He rejects them and doesn’t bless them, and keeps them out of the Kingdom. He does that by death. Don’t lie if you want to get into God’s love ever. And God, NOR His son, Jesus, will “rebuke” me for posting the truth. What I do, they COMMANDED that we ALL do. If anyone needs “rebuking” it’s everyone who does NOT witness for God, as a witness to ALL THE NATIONS, and then the end will come Ron. You don’t do that, do you! You don’t obey ALL of God’s commands, and do His ENTIRE will as laid out in His inspired word, because you don’t know what it is. It isn’t to be found in the KJV, so you CAN’T do His will, or obey all of His commands. You reject any translation that is accurate, meaning you reject God. Reject to your hearts content, but do not lie about me Ron. Do not call me things that I am not, and even if I was what you claim, it’s a sin to say so. It’s a sin to ask God to being evil upon someone also. It’s even a sin to pray to Jesus. He himself said to pray ONLY TO THE FATHER. He told many people not to pray to him and not to worship him, but ONLY to worship his Father.

        • TWR

          Phil,

          Matthew 15:26King James Version (KJV)
          26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.

          Jesus said he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Why will no one believe him? Everyone wants so bad to believe the lie that he atoned for the sins of the world that they refuse to believe what their own eyes read.

          Matthew 20:28King James Version (KJV)
          28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

          He didn’t come to save man from their own wickedness. Sin is a choice. He came to give his life as a ransom for many. These are the many.

          Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)
          15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

          Strong’s Hebrew 2465 defines world as an age. Greek 165 also defines it as an age or messianic period. One bad translation can change a whole story. Everything the Messiah did was age specific to first testament Saints. After the resurrection he said go make disciples of all nations. There is gentile salvation. This world is not close to ending. An astrological age is roughly 2,130 years. Each age brings about specific changes designed by God. The age following the temple age has been dominated by Esau and false religion. The new age we are about to embark upon will go back to Jacob and the same commandments people do not want to follow. The O.T. prophets prophesied about the end of that age. Ezra prophesied about the next.

          2 Esdras 6:7-9 KJV
          7 Then answered I and said, What shall be the parting asunder of the times? or when shall be the end of the first, and the beginning of it that followeth?

          8 And he said unto me, From Abraham unto Isaac, when Jacob and Esau were born of him, Jacob’s hand held first the heel of Esau.

          9 For Esau is the end of the world, and Jacob is the beginning of it that followeth.

          There is that word world again. It means age or system of things. This world is not about to end. There is no rapture or tribulation. There will be plenty of turmoil because Esau is trying to hold on. This is the truth. That is why preterists are frowned upon. They know that story has been told. That is why Mark 9:1 says some standing there will not taste death until they had seen the kingdom come with power. Those Israelites who were faithful have been collected and are enjoying there heavenly reward. Our story is yet to be determined. That is why I live to serve. There are good and bad works. People looking for a reward of rapture and heaven are bound to have more bad works than good. They go to church faithfully and fill up the collection plate and never realize those are works. God knows your heart. I have seen the hearts of some of these people on here. There is no end of the world. If it was it would have happened two thousand years ago.
          AMEN

          • Emery

            twr;
            The problem IS comprehension. The house of Israel of which Jesus is speaking, is NOT PHYSICAL ISRAEL, it is SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. The one he is going to make a covenant with the night before his death. People from ALL NATIONS are included. Those whom God chooses to annoint with holy spirit, making them one of the 144,000. This is the GREATEST MISCONCEPTION of religions. They don’t understand spiritual Israel, and God’s purposes for them at all. Not even the most basic things about them. So sad.

          • Phil

            TWR,

            “That is why preterists are frowned upon.”

            Specific issues aside, the reason preterists are frowned on is because they dump allegory on anything they don’t like. The problem with doing this is that once you leave literal meaning behind, you can substitute absolutely anything you want and call it good. It is top-shelf subjectivity. I forget who it was here that eliminated eight entire chapters of Ezekiel using this sappy technique. Same thing with the entire book of the Revelation, every record of the Olivet discourse, critical things revealed in Daniel and Zechariah, and lots of other passages and events.

            Want to test this? Try Daniel 12:7-10
            7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
            8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
            9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
            10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

            If the drama is all over, then the time of the end has passed, and the words are no longer closed up and sealed. So, how would you answer the question that Daniel asked?

  • TWR
  • TWR

    DC,

    Just because someone doesn’t agree with your beliefs doesn’t make them wrong. There is only one thing worse than a preterist, J.W. or SDA and that is someone who is delusional enough to believe they are living in a story that is not even about them.

    2 Timothy 4:4King James Version (KJV)
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Who is this story about?

    Matthew 15:24King James Version (KJV)
    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    That means I am sent to nobody else. Who did the son of man come to save? You?

    Matthew 18:11King James Version (KJV)
    11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    When was the kingdom supposed to come?

    Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
    9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

    My question DC is was you one of the ones standing there. Delusional people have the ability to put themselves inside of a story. They are magically transformed from reader to active participant.

    Matthew 24:33-35King James Version (KJV)

    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Jesus is having an A&B conversation with his disciples on the mount about the signs that would precede the end of the age. How did you see your way in? Were you standing there too? You making all these little smart backhanded comments when the reality of the situation is you believe you are Alice in wonderland. Preterism sounds sane in comparison to what you are suggesting. I’m worried about new Christians and old Christians too when people like you start spreading the delusional gospel. If Jesus says he only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, don’t you think he is intelligent enough to know who he was sent for? I’m not saying there is not gentile salvation, but a different path. From a writer’s perspective, you are not the audience. Unless heaven and earth passed away, these things have taken place or Jesus was mistaken.

    Matthew 20:28King James Version (KJV)
    28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    Jesus never once said he came to die for the sins of the world. The implication of a ransom means there were already captives. The scripture tells you exactly who the many were.

    Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)
    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    .
    Old testament saints receiving there promise of eternal inheritance.

    Matthew 27:53King James Version (KJV)
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Where is the kingdom, streets paved with gold and the pearly gates?

    Luke 17:20-21King James Version (KJV)
    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Am I saying all is fulfilled? Probably not. However, my thoughts are much more sound than you and your few little delusional, hypocritical friends that believe you living in a story about Israelites. If it was any other book than the bible you would be in a straight jacket. Do you see how I can scripturally back what I believe? Can you and your friends do the same? Did I twist any of those scriptures to for the sole purpose of suiting me belief? I believe this qualifies me as the sane one here. I apologize for ruining your fantasy. I that is all some people have.

  • TWR

    Ron,

    Sounds more like a comprehension problem to me. How do you turn law OF commandments contained IN ordinances into a total abolishment of both? Jesus demonstrated the law of commandments in the scenario with the adulteress. Those ordinances that were abolished would have commanded here to be stoned. Since there was no one there who was sinless and able to condemn her, he said neither do I. Go and sin no more. In other words go and keep the commandments. Amen Ron?

  • twr

    Phil,

    That particular passage is not challenging as some. There was a seven year period between 66 and 70 A.D. when many end of the age prophecies were fulfilled. Rome invaded Jerusalem in 63. Something happened in 66 that sparked the Jewish revolt. The temple was destroyed in 70 and the Jews made there last stand in 73 at Masada. It’s progressive learning. All of Daniel’s prophecies have been fulfilled. I can’t say that for Ezekiel and Isaiah. I haven’t went back thru them. I’m thru revelation 13. I have to re-read because meanings begin to change.

    • Emery

      twr;
      That’s not correct. MANY of the prophecies in the book of Daniel have TWO fulfilments, AND many of them are not known yet. Many more are only just now being revealed to us.

      • TWR

        Emery,

        You can’t tell me what is not correct. To your knowledge it is not correct. Daniel is fulfilled and so is much of revelation. Most of these prophecies are age specific. By using the word world instead of the appropriate definition of age, the whole story changes. Even in Revelation, the 42 months given to the beast to make war with the holy ones was between 66 and 70 A.D. So far, most of this story has been told. By making people believe the world will end and placing Revelation as the last book was clever. They were able to give the illusion of future events.

        • Emery

          twr;
          That was a weird thing to say. Whether or not YOU think a thing is true, I did still TELL YOU. So apparently I CAN tell you something, true or not. What I posted though IS true. Completely true. In fact, everything I’ve ever posted is completely true twr. Yes, the Book of Daniel is not totally fulfilled, and yes, parts are only now being revealed, with more to come. Revelation is still yet to be completely fulfilled also. Much of it is currently being fulfilled, and much of it to come. The “world” WILL end twr. But “world” doesn’t mean planet, it means people, societies, machinations of the world. THEY will ALL end shortly leaving a very few people left alive, since God has said He will protect the “great crowd”, which currently is less than ten million. If it happened today, that’s who will remain alive and no one else. Anyone ruining the world physically or spiritually, anyone part of religions or governments, anyone rejecting God, Jesus, God’s word, or anyone teaching lies about them will ALL be “exterminated” from the face of the Earth. Don’t think you can teach me what God’s word say twr. you are not qualified to do so.

        • Emery

          twr;
          Daniel 12:9 alone proves you are not correct: Daniel 12:9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.

          Or if you prefer, from YOUR Bible:

          Daniel 12:9King James Version (KJV)

          9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

          • TWR

            Emery,

            Daniel is done. Here is a line by line on Chapter 11.
            http://www.danielbibleprophecy.org/daniel11.html

          • Emery

            twr;
            If you want to believe what men say, rather than what God said, it’s your business, but you shouldn’t try to teach it to others. That is a sin. And I told you, and showed you that it’s not “done” yet. Almost, but not quite. And I also said you shouldn’t try to tell me what God’s word says, as you’re not qualified to do so.

          • Emery

            twr;
            Your “danielbibleprophecy.org” is based SOLELY on the KJV, which is a completely false translation of the inspired word of God. There is no way anything on that site CAN be true, since it’s based on lies. Among your lack of scholarship, your lack of being qualified to tell me what God’s word says is based, in large part, on the fact that you as well use the KJV, which basically is the beliefs of the Church of England, NOT the inspired word of God.

        • Emery

          twr;
          Consider this significant point: All the prophecies in the book of Daniel have been fulfilled except for a few details. For example, we now see the world situation portrayed by the feet of the dream image of Daniel chapter 2. The tree stump of Daniel chapter 4 was unbanded by the enthronement of the Messianic King, Jesus Christ, in the year 1914. Yes, as foretold in Daniel chapter 7, the Ancient of Days then gave rulership to the Son of man.—Daniel 7:13, 14; Matthew 16:27–17:9.
          28 The 2,300 days of Daniel chapter 8 as well as the 1,290 and the 1,335 days of chapter 12 are all past—behind us in the stream of time. A study of Daniel chapter 11 shows that the conflict between “the king of the north” and “the king of the south” has reached its final stages.

      • TWR

        Emery,

        You can find the prophecies of Daniel 11 in any history books. I’m not trying to teach you anything. Sin is transgression of the law. Which law am I breaking by pointing out something that has already happened? You haven’t shown me anything and I don’t care what you tell me. You got me confused with your kingdom buddies. I thought this was a discussion. I’m not trying to teach you anything. As far as being qualified, you are definitely not qualified to tell me anything.

        • Emery

          Sin is disobeying ANY command or principle of God, or of what His son, Jesus taught, or what His word teaches. Using a false translation alone is sinning. Teaching OTHERS from that false translation is sinning. The Mosaic Law Covenant is NOT IN FORCE. The old ended law covenant contains God’s principles, or a lot of them rather. The Law was enforced by stoning. We aren’t commanded to obey it any more. We have the CHOICE now to obey, or not to obey. Not obeying is death. Obeying is eternal life in a paradise Earth, IF one obeys all of God’s commands, all the time. The trick is to know what all of His commands are, and what His will for us is. Very few ever spend any time finding out. As far as me being qualified twr, I am far more qualified than anyone else on this blog so far. I’ve spent a lifetime researching and studying. I study with the remnant of the 144,000. I am also a dedicated, ordained minister of God. There’s three more qualifications than what you posess. you can posess them also, if you get to work and stop using false information, and stop using web sites based on false translations. And stop believing religions and men, and start believing God.

          • TWR

            EMERY,

            Everyone here uses the KJV. God has no respect of person. He doesn’t care how long you studied. Many are called, few are chosen. You are a legend in your own mind. 144,000 come from the tribes by lineage. Period. There is no remnant. If there were a remnant, they would be Torah observant and not witnesses. God is the God of Israel. No bible translation, including yours replaces the Torah. I don’t believe in religions and men, that is why I don’t believe you. I trust what God has revealed. My research reflects the revelation and not vice versa. If we were in week 69 or 70 of Daniel’s prophecy in chapter 9, how is chapter 11 already in the history books? At some point you have to use the common sense God gave you. http://www.danielbibleprophecy.org/daniel11.html

          • Emery

            Yes, but that’s nothing to be proud of. If you people used an accurate translation, you’d get a lot further in learning about God and Jesus and what’s to come soon upon the Earth. God does respect those who respect Him. Those who don’t use accurate information don’t respect Him twr. The 144,000 God invited to be His adopted sons do not come from the tribes by lineage. Were that so, then God would be wrong and you would be right. And that isn’t the case. God is right, since He is the one doing the choosing. He said they come from all nations and tribes and tongues. You disagree with Him. Take it up with Him. Argue with Him. The Torah is a Judaism book or scroll. The word of God is the ENTIRE word of God. Judaism leaves out a great portion of His inspired word. Their loss. Especially the loss of their life for doing so, for insulting God in that way. You don’t believe me because you don’t believe God. What I post is His word. Not believing me is the same as not believing His word twr. History books mean nothing. The scriptures are all the history we need. It’s all the truth we need. An ACCURATE copy of it that is. As you said, none of you use an accurate copy of it. The web site you continue to tout is based on a false translation of God’s inspired word. The KJV is NOT the inspired word of God. It’s a very poor attempt at translating it from Latin to victorian English, mistranslating over 20,000 words and almost totally eliminating the personal name of God. What an insult to Him THAT is, and YOU’RE PROUD OF IT. Proud of INSULTING God. I just can’t imagine being proud of such a thing. I just can’t imagine that any intelligent human can think God will overlook that, because He certainly won’t.

          • TWR

            Emery,

            Just stop. Save the 144,000 lies for the witnesses. I can read.

            Revelation 7:4-8King James Version (KJV)

            4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

            5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

            6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

            7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

            8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

            It does not say 144,000 were from every nation, tongue and tribe. After Revelation 14:4-5 describes the 144,000, it describes another SEPARATE event.

            Revelation 14:6King James Version (KJV)

            6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

            So, you have just been caught in your first lie/mistranslation combo, and the last for me. You say the 144,000 don’t come from the tribes. There it is. You are forever damaged on this site because you boasting how you are so much more knowledgeable than anyone here. You are a legend in your own mind.

          • Emery

            twr;
            I’ve never told any “144,000 lies” in my life, ever. I’ve been caught in nothing twr. What is a lie/mistranslation combo anyway? Something you, of course, invented I suppose. Jesus told this little flock, the 144,000, that his Father has approved of giving them the Kingdom. Luke 12:32 “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.
            Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
            They are co-kings, co-priests and co-heirs with the Christ. All 144,000 of them. It seems that you are calling God a liar twr. How can you do such a horrible thing? Were I you, I would start repenting and praying in Jesus name, to God, for forgiveness right now.

          • Emery

            Revelation 22:18 “I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.

            Changing ONE WORD of the scriptures causes God to add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll.

            REAL scriptures are the ancient scrolls, about 5,000 of them found to date, and more are found all the time. In fact, right now, they are digging in Qumram to find any scrolls left in the caves there before they are further plundered. Here is a comparison of what’s in the ancient scrolls compared to KJV.

            Real: Gehenna 22 occurrences; KJV 0. Real: Hades 19 occurrences, KJV 0. Real: Sheol 71; KJV 0. Real: Ghost 0; KJV 108. Real: Jehovah 7,988; KJV 7. Real: Stake 128; KJV 2.

            See a pattern here? Changing ONE WORD makes one God’s enemy. God will add to them the plagues that are written in the scroll. I’ve just shown over eight thousand changes. One is enough for God to condemn the one who changes it. And you think you have an accurate translation? Changing ONE WORD of any sentence, CHANGES the sentence. Changing it 20,000 times changes the ENTIRE BOOK. This doesn’t include the fictitious sentences ADDED to the KJV that didn’t exist in the ancient texts. Still think your KJV is to accurate? Still think it’s the inspired word of God, or is it the word of James the First?

          • Phil

            Emery,

            “The 144,000 God invited to be His adopted sons do not come from the tribes by lineage. Were that so, then God would be wrong and you would be right. And that isn’t the case. God is right, since He is the one doing the choosing. He said they come from all nations and tribes and tongues. You disagree with Him.”

            Even in your bible, He does not say that the 144,000 are from all nations and tribes and tongues.

            This is what the NWT has to say in Revelation, chapter 7.

            3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed+ the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
            4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
            5 Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed; out of the tribe of Reuʹben 12,000; out of the tribe of Gad 12,000;
            6 out of the tribe of Ashʹer 12,000; out of the tribe of Naphʹta·li 12,000; out of the tribe of Ma·nasʹseh 12,000;
            7 out of the tribe of Simʹe·on 12,000; out of the tribe of Leʹvi 12,000; out of the tribe of Isʹsa·char 12,000;

            8 out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000; out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000; out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed.

            9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

            Here, in chapter 14 of the NWT, is the only remaining information that is knowable about the 144,000:

            1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.
            2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps.
            3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song+ before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.
            4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

            5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

            6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue

            You should be able to notice that in both of these passages, from your bible, there is a disconnect between the 144,000, and the people from “of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues” or “every nation and tribe and tongue”. So you are getting additional information that cancels the Israelite identity of the 144,000 from someone or somewhere else.

            I understand that you “study with some of the remnant of the annointed 144,000. They are Jesus’ slaves, and do have much more insight than the average person.” But perhaps that is how you wind up making connections that can’t be made without adding to the text. Nobody, not even the 144,000 Israelites, are authorized to do that.

          • TWR

            Phil,

            Please don’t try to sugarcoat Emery’s delusion. The bible clearly states the 144,000 are from the tribes and breaks down how many from each. He is trying to combine different passages to create his own doctrine without proper context. In Revelation 5:9 it was the four living creatures and 24 Elders that sang a new song. Revelation 14:3 says the 144,000 were singing as if a new song. It is actually an old song. The people he is referring to in Revelation 5:9-10 were never numbered. This is flawed witness doctrine at work. There is nothing scriptural to support their claim of any connection to the 144,000.

          • Emery

            twr;
            When you asked me how you were sinning, your last post is a classic example. You are deliberately attempting to teach others, something that is clearly false. God’s word says the 144,000 are “spiritual israel”, and the “Israel of God”, and that they come from all nations and languages and peoples. They REPLACED physical Israel as God’s chosen nation to represent Him on Earth, having rejected God hundreds of times in favor of pagan idols and gods. You are essentially doing the same thing, worshiping the KJV and false beliefs as gods. Giving them your attention and time, rather than giving it to God. You are teaching falsehoods. You are teaching them from a Bible where things are CHANGED from God’s inspired word. I showed you how doing so makes you God’s enemy, and brings punishments upon you from God. So you doubled down on your false teachings.

            Then you attack God’s servant, me, making you further rejecting God and His word. Everything I’ve posted is 100% accurate, but since it doesn’t match what your false religions, and your false translations teach, you think what I post is false. Well, it’s not. It’s what you worship as gods that is wrong. You also worship yourself as a god, never admitting, in humility, that you’re not perfect. Pretending that you could never be wrong. Pretending that your beliefs actually match the inspired word of God. They don’t twr. They simply don’t.

          • Emery

            Phil;
            You cannot change God’s purposes and words by saying they mean something other than what they do mean. God’s word says spiritual Israel, the 144,000, come from all nations. It says also that they are the only humans to be “born of spirit”, besides Jesus who was the first one, and they are the only ones going to heaven, since they are to co-rule Earth, with Jesus, from heaven. Jesus’ return was in 1914, 2520 years after the temple’s destruction, just as God’s word says. Satan was cast down to the Earth then, and WWI started immediately, since Satan was angry, knowing he had but a short time (before Jesus abysses him). These are the things God’s word teaches, and you cannot change God’s plans and purposes, by any means. Much less by SAYING they’re something else. Just because you don’t understand it, doesn’t mean it isn’t so Phil. In your lack of humility, you refuse to admit you’re not perfect either. You refuse to admit that you could be wrong on anything. That is a sin.

          • TWR

            Emery,

            I’m not going to debate the merits of a flat out lie. That is nothing but the doctrine of demons. Every Israelite did not reject God or fall into idolatry. Jesus said the ones that did receive him, he gave them the chance to be sons of God. Revelation 7:4-8 breaks down who the 144,000 are by tribe. There is no place in the bible you can show me or anyone else where the Israelites have been replaced or the 144,000 were replaced with spiritual Israel. That is the lie you tell people to get them into your temples. Revelation 5:9-10 has nothing to do with the 144,000. If you can’t show me what you are saying in black and white, keep you demonic doctrine to yourself.

          • Emery

            twr;
            Again, you say God’s word is a “flat out lie”. Amazing.

          • Emery

            twr;
            Everyone on this site also pretends to be members of the 144,000 by claiming, falsely to be “born again”, which of course, according to God’s word, they are definately not. They cling also to a false religion, which is Babylon the Great.

            The book of Revelation contains expressions that are not to be understood literally. (Revelation 1:1) For example, it mentions a woman with the name “Babylon the Great” written on her forehead. This woman is said to be sitting on “crowds and nations.” (Revelation 17:1, 5, 15) Since no literal woman could do this, Babylon the Great must be symbolic. So, what does this symbolic prostitute represent?

            At Revelation 17:18, the same figurative woman is described as “the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” The term “city” indicates an organized group of people. Since this “great city” has control over “the kings of the earth,” the woman named Babylon the Great must be an influential organization that is international in scope. It can rightly be called a world empire. What kind of empire? A religious one. Notice how some related passages in the book of Revelation lead us to this conclusion.

            An empire can be political, commercial, or religious. The woman named Babylon the Great is not a political empire because God’s Word states that “the kings of the earth,” or the political elements of this world, “committed sexual immorality” with her. She has practiced such immorality by forming alliances with the rulers of this earth and has done whatever is necessary in order to gain power and influence over them. That is why she is called “the great prostitute.”—Revelation 17:1, 2; James 4:4.

            Babylon the Great cannot be a commercial empire because “the merchants of the earth,” representing the commercial elements, will be mourning her at the time of her destruction. In fact, both kings and merchants are described as looking at Babylon the Great from “a distance.” (Revelation 18:3, 9, 10, 15-17) Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that Babylon the Great is, not a political or a commercial empire, but a religious one.

            The religious identity of Babylon the Great is further confirmed by the statement that she misleads all the nations by means of her “spiritistic practices.” (Revelation 18:23) Since all forms of spiritism are religious and demon-inspired, it is not surprising that the Bible calls Babylon the Great “a dwelling place of demons.” (Revelation 18:2; Deuteronomy 18:10-12) This empire is also described as being actively opposed to true religion, persecuting “prophets” and “holy ones.” (Revelation 18:24) In fact, Babylon the Great has such deep hatred for true religion that she violently persecutes and even murders “the witnesses of Jesus.” (Revelation 17:6) Hence, this woman named Babylon the Great clearly represents the world empire of false religion, which includes all religions that stand in opposition to Jehovah God.

          • twr

            Emery,

            Christians claim their teaching is scriptural. It is. Hoe you teach it with the doctrine is what is deceptive. I feel like Rip Van Winkle waking up after 50 years. People can’t understand simple communication. There is a difference between prophetic word and a conversation. There is no prophetic word for future generations in the gospels or Paul’s epistles. Who they were talking to was who their message was meant for. Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, minor prophets and John were or are for generations in their future. You have Christians on here pulling future prophecies from Matthew and letters Paul wrote to congregations 2,000 years ago, but try to talk down to me because I know longer share the delusion. The only place you can get prophetic word for this dispensation is from the prophets. When you understand that, you will understand you are part of religion.

          • E, the harlot Babylon was Jerusalem.

            You don’t study with the 144,000. They are described as virgin Jews, and they would have existed in that generation that saw the judgment in 66-70.

            Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
            Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

            and the number called into the kingdom can’t be numbered by counting

            Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
            Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

            Even the minority texts utilized by the nwt agree:

            9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+

            no one was able to master that song except the 144,000,+ who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.+

            It actually makes my skin crawl to read the minority texts.

          • Emery

            tiptop;
            You are indeed incorrect about Babylon the Great and the 144,000. Who are you to tell me what I do and don’t do? You have no right to tell me anything like that. And yes, I do study, work, and support some of the remnant of the 144,000 still alive on Earth. And no, they are not all Jews. That’s a rediculous postulation, and shows a complete misunderstanding of God’s word regarding the subject. The entire Christian/Greek scriptures from Matthew to Revelation are written by and addressed to the 144,000, and are written ABOUT the 144,000. Minority texts? Where are you reading those? I suggest you stop if it makes your “skin crawl”. Try the NWT, it compares completely accurately to most all of the almost 12,000 old and new testament ancient texts available to date. If you don’t like that, try Young’s, or the Orthodox Jewish Bible, they’re 75 to 80% accurate. The KJV is about 55% accurate at best.

        • TWR

          Emery,

          I don’t need a lesson. I understand the symbolism. I understand religions are false. I just don’t understand how you cannot classify J.W. as religion.

          Psalm 83:3-4King James Version (KJV)
          3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.

          4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

          Israelites are still here. You cut them off from being a nation with religion. You cut them off by changing the Sabbath observance to Sunday worship. You cut them off by changing their sacred holy days to pagan holidays. You tell people the law has been abolished. This is exactly what Daniel says will happen.

          Daniel 7:25King James Version (KJV)

          25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

          Constantine made a law that Sunday was a day of worship. They changed the calendar to disrupt the feast days. The church came up with the false doctrine about laws being abilished when clearly it says law of commandments. There is not enough separation from J.W. doctrine to not call it anything but a variation of Christianity. You don’t believe in the Sabbath, Holy Days or the commandments. You don’t observe pagan holidays but you believe in the wrong kind of works. You believe in sacred service as a way of inheriting the kingdom. The bible says no one knows the day or the hour. You seem to believe Jesus came back in 1914. Anyone who erves the true God is going to be Torah observant. Anything else is false religion.

          • Emery

            twr;
            You don’t understand that because everyone, and every religion despises us, because we make them look bad. They want us destroyed. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a SOCIETY of ministers of God. The registration with the government requires a classification, and that legalistic classification is a religious organization, not a religion. It’s not a religion. It’s a society. The religion to which all of the members of the society participate, is not a religion as you know them. It is not an organized religion created by men, with a church or a clergy of any kind. It doesn’t ever pass the plate either. The religion is what Jesus taught, the “one true faith” that it’s members are part of. Those who believe “the one true faith” are also members of the society. There is a distinction you probably don’t understand. The RCC for example, IS a religion, created by a man in 325 a.d., and it has a church and a clergy and passes the plate repeatedly every Sunday. But their members are no part of any society, nor do they practice “the one true faith” Jesus taught. Does this shed some light on the dilemma?

          • Emery

            twr;
            EVERY aspect of our beliefs is scriptural. Every aspect of our methods of organization and how we do things is scriptural, and everything we teach is scriptural. Our ENTIRE LIVES are lived according to scriptural principles, beliefs, and teachings. We obey all secular laws, love our neighbors and our brothers, help everyone we possibly can, and put the needs of others before our needs. We preach the Kingdom message and proclaim Jehovah’s name to everyone we possibly can, all the time. In all things, we put the Kingdom interests first. In fact, a former employer of mine continuously asked me to work more days and more hours. I asked him what I live by, and why I cannot do that, and he repeated what I’ve always told him, “keep seeking first the kingdom”.

  • “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him”. Pro.26:4 The way to answer unbelievers is with the message of salvation. They must be born again. Anything else leads only to endless foolishness. As we have witnessed here. They do not understand Paul’s teaching of the rapture, because they do not have hearing ears.

    Blessings to our brothers and sisters who have tried to bring clarity to these unregenerates. But, it has become painfully clear that their understanding is darkened by the prince of the power of the air. And what is more, they seem to like it that way. Sometimes even giving web addresses to go to and read in order that they might make some as lost and without hope as they are.

    Keep the faith that was once delivered and turn from these reprobates. Leaving them to their folly.

    • TWR

      I understand Paul’s teaching. I understand his words were for those he was teaching. Paul was not a prophet. He was teaching Daniel’s vision to the diaspora of that age. Paul wasn’t talking to you or me. Just like Mark 9:1 wasn’t talking to you or me unless you were standing there. Jesus was not talking to you or me on the mount when he was giving his disciples the signs of the end of the age. I now understand the concept of Alice in wonderland.

    • Ron

      Edwitness don’t forget….

      Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

      2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

      They are setting their own selves up for total destruction by being forced to believe a lie, instead of coming to the knowledge of the Truth.

      God Bless You Edwitness!

      • You are right Ron,
        We don’t forget that verse either. But, they mean the same thing with one said in the positive and the other in the negative. The verse you cited means to answer in a way that addresses their need. And being a fool, that means they need Jesus. Their “conceit” comes from their singular use of the “world’s wisdom”. They do not need an explanation that they can never understand apart from being born again.

        While the verse I cited means to avoid going into explanations to these “fools” that are only understood by those who are spiritual because you end up in long fruitless discussions. Unless they are born again they will not see the kingdom of God.

        Blessings brother :-}

        • Emery

          twr;
          There exists only ONE religion, one TRUE religion. All others are man created. Jesus started the “one true faith” and it’s no religion created by man as you know it. It has no church, clergy, separate doctrine and beliefs and rituals and holidays. It is the Christian Congregation and Spiritual Israel, the 144,000. They are the only ones ever “born again” and the only ones to go to heaven.

          Being born again involves being baptized in water (“born from water”) and begotten by God’s spirit (“born from . . . spirit”), thus becoming a son of God with the prospect of sharing in the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5) Jesus had this experience, as do the 144,000 who are heirs with him of the heavenly Kingdom.
          Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”
          Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand . . . who have been bought from the earth.”
          1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
          John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.”
          John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus Christ], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (“As many as did receive him” does not mean all humans who have put faith in Christ. Notice who is being referred to, as indicated by verse 11 [“his own people,” the Jews]. The same privilege has been extended to others of mankind, but only to a “little flock.”)
          Rom. 8:16, 17: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”
          1 Pet. 1:3, 4: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”
          Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”
          1 Cor. 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

          Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12.
          The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.”

          Salvation does not mean being born again. Having God’s spirit does not mean being born again, or going to heaven, or being saved either.
          You choose to believe men and religion, all of which are false, except for the one created by Jesus, the “one true faith”, Spiritual Israel. All others are fake, counterfeit, false copies of that one true religion. God warned us about them, and warned us to “flee” from them unless we want to share in their punishments. you should not believe a religion, or any man, over what God says. Thinking you’re “born again” means you DO believe men and religion OVER what God says. That, my friend, is grieving the spirit, the one sin that cannot be forgiven.

        • TWR

          Emery,

          There is no religion that is not man made including yours. If I have stated anything incorrectly, show me like you just showed Edwitness. I hope he shut up about that Jesus is God. There is nowhere in the bible that requires us to believe Jesus is God himself. So the point he is trying to make is irrelevant to salvation or being born again. I believe he called us fools. Paul was not a prophet. He was writing letters to his diaspora. The fool believes Paul somehow envisioned a bible being created and his letters would be apart of it. The fool believes Paul was talking to anyone other than he was writing to. Whatever Paul said about being changed or meeting Christ in the air was obviously for that generation like Christ said in Mark 9:1. A fool doesn’t understand the difference between prophecy and a conversation. Maybe somebody will find my letters 2,000 years from now and totally ignore who I was writing to and believe I was writing to them. Wow!!!

          • Emery

            twr;
            Then according to your false statement, Jesus came to Earth for nothing. I hope Ed shut up about Jesus being God as well. That is grieving the spirit, and is the only sin Jesus ever said was unforgiveable. It’s a rediculous belief of false religion that is clearly not true. These people are behaving like members of a cult, and militantly defend their lies. It’s crazy.

            Paul, however was not writing just to Jews scattered about. He was writing to OTHER members of the 144,000. They are NOT just Jews. The members of the remnant of the 144,000 still alive that I know personally are all not Jews. I think one is. But the rest are not, and I’ve met a half dozen, and know one very well. We are close friends. In fact, I didn’t know he was one for years after I met him. The words about meeting the Christ in the air is figurative, but does refer to the remnant who will be taken to heaven just before the final battle begins. All who are already dead are already resurrected to heaven as spirit beings, like angels, God, and Jesus are spirit beings. We don’t have an immortal soul, and flesh cannot enter heaven. The remnant will be transformed into spirit beings as they are taken. Don’t know what happens to their bodies, but they cease to exist as flesh and blood.

            However, Jesus came to initiate the Christian Congregation, teach Christianity, and sacrifice himself so that we have an avenue by which we may attain to righteousness, IF we do what is required. yes, Jesus DID teach Christianity, and it is the ONLY religion that exists. No organized religion created by man IS religion. They only CLAIM to be. They are NOT Christian. No Christian would EVER have ANYTHING to do with any religion. It would instantly stop them from BEING Christian. They would immediately lose out on all of God’s promises.

            What I am part of is the only religion twr. Christendom is not religion in God’s eyes, but it is religion as man knows it. As man knows religion, it is the teaching of things relating to God that are false. In actuality, it’s only what Jesus taught. Christendom has gotten EVERYTHING completely wrong. But Christendom doesn’t contain all religons of man. most are pagan, like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Shintoism, and so on.

        • Ron

          You and I both know they are not saved and will be given over to the strong delusion and believe and while we look for a Heavenly

          Kingdom, they look for an Earthly one which instead of being led by Jesus Christ it will be led by anti-christ.

          I am done with the you know who’s.

          God Bless You brother Ed time is short!

        • TWR

          Edwitness,

          There is a distinction / unity when Jesus identifies himself with the Father, saying that he and the Father ‘are one’ (John 10:38, 17:11,21), and that he is in the Father and vice versa (John 14:11). Jesus does not say that he IS the Father, or that he and the Father are the SAME, but that they are ONE. So they are distinct, yet unified. When Jesus said unless you believe that I am, he could have very easily been talking about the promised Messiah of his people. Before Abraham was I am. If he was the first born of all creation as the bible said, he did precede Abraham. I don’t believe in silly translations. It is irrelevant to me. He is the king of kings. His name is exalted above all other names. He has a father and he has a God.

          Revelation 3:12King James Version (KJV)
          12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

          1 Corinthians 15:24King James Version (KJV)
          24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

          You can always try to find a few scriptures out of context to prove a point. Context is kryptonite for Christians. If he is God, who is his father and his God? He can be one in spirit with God without being God. Why are we talking about this? Are you trying to deflect from the current conversation?

          • Tommy

            TWR
            Then what are we to do with this verse ?
            Isa 9:6
            For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

        • Ron

          I am done with them but I think you should include this with your posts every time so people know it and understand.

          Revelation 3:7-8 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; (all born again Christians Church of Brotherly Love)
          These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth;
          and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works:
          behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:
          for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
          Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan,
          which say they are Jews, (who says they are Jews or of the 144,000? Who? Who? Who? Questions that make you go Hmmmm?)
          and are not, but do lie;
          behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

  • Pete, regarding your remarks on Grk tachos “shortly come to pass” (Rev. 1:1), first thanks for your astute response and thanks for doing some research. As you’ve noted there are several different variations of tachos, e.g., tachys, tacheos. In Rev. 1:1 it is actually en-tachos. The tachos is preceded by the preposition en. This combination is quite rare. In Luke 18:7-8 “And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly (en-tachos). However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” Here it is obvious that justice will be served quickly when the Son of Man comes. Vines Expository Dictionary says en-tachos in Rev. 1:1 and 22:6 would be better translated “with speed”.

    There are other references in Revelation where the term tachys is used. Rev. 3:11 “I am coming soon (tachys). Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.” Rev. 22:7 “Behold, I am coming soon (tachys)! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.” Rev. 22:7 “Behold, I am coming soon (tachys)! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.” Since the Lord hasn’t returned yet, I must assume that when he comes it will be quickly.

    En-tachos is used in one of the references you gave in Acts 25:4 “Festus answered, “Paul is being held at Caesarea, and I myself am going there soon (en-tachos)”. It seems reasonable to believe that Festus wasn’t going to leave right away but when he did it would be a quick trip.

    So my original belief that en-tachos means “when it starts, it will happen quickly” still stands. And by the way, Charles Ryrie, John Walvoord and the editors of Hebrew-Greek Keyword Study Bible agree with me.

    Regarding apocalyptic language. Yes, Revelation contains some symbolic language but it is usually quite clear when it does – such as the beast with seven heads and ten horns (Rev. 13:1). I do not think Geoff believes in a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns. Regarding the rivers that became blood, remember Moses turned the Nile into blood. It’s doubtful that the Nile was pure blood but rather “blood red from red algae” and no one knows how long it remained that way. Was it drinkable? Nobody knows for sure but it certainly wouldn’t have been tasty for at least a few days.

    The old rule of hermeneutics is “when the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense”. There are some who believe the entire book of Revelation is symbolic. If that’s the case, then I’ll throw up my hands and never bother to read it again because I would have no idea what it means. Yet Revelation is the only book in the Bible that promises the reader a blessing (Rev. 1:3).

    You talk about people not being able to survive in the apocalypse. Remember by the 4th seal, 1/4 of the population is dead (Rev. 6:8) and by the 6th trumpet 1/3 of the remainder are dead (Rev. 9:15-18). Then the worst of all judgments – the 7 bowls and armageddon. Probably only a fraction of the 7 billion population will survive. I pray every day for my family and friends to be ready when the most dreadful time the earth has ever known or will know will come (Matt. 24:21-22; Dan. 12:1).

    • Pete

      Thanks Bill. The Greek word is the same throughout, and it means just what it says. I will stick with the KJV rendering of it. They all mean that something is imminent, soon, shortly. Peter used it in 2 Peter 1:4 (“Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle”) talking about his impending death. Paul used it in Gal 1:6 (“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him”). On and on. You are following after the error of Wolvoord and others who beg the question. They assumed, as do you, that the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are speaking about a bodily return, a second coming, of Jesus. They do not. They speak of a coming in judgment upon Jerusalem, the known world at the time, the destruction of the temple and the end of the Old Covenant age. It happened within a generation just as Jesus said it would.

      You play fast and loose with the text to prop up your view. The Nile and the fountains of waters in Revelation “became blood.” They didn’t turn blood red in color from algae. And no, they were not drinkable: Exe 7:21 “and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river”. “Becoming blood” is the plain sense. “Shortly come to pass” is the plain sense. It is you that has to resort of backflips with the Greek to make your view fit.

      //The old rule of hermeneutics is “when the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense”. //

      This isn’t an old rule, it is a new rule from the 20th century, created by dispensationalists to force people not to question what they say verses mean. No, this is a silly stupid rule, it is the worst way to literally read something. What’s “plain sense” mean???? And who gets to determine that? You? It’s a different definition depending on culture, idioms, and times.

      No. Read the Bible literally by allowing it to define itself.

      Truly sad that you think we should give up on Revelation is we cannot figure out the meaning. It’s all in the Book and the Holy Spirit is your guide.

  • Dan

    Hey Geoff, I’ve just read this article on Infowars and can’t believe they would post something like this; so offensive!

    http://www.infowars.com/our-prospects-against-the-russians-and-chinese-in-world-war-iii/#comment-2701443021

  • Pete, let’s see… so you believe that the Nile turned to pure blood in Moses day. And you also believe the fountains have turned to pure blood after John wrote Revelation in 95 AD. Yet the historical records do not tell us of anyone dying from bloody fountains since John wrote Revelation. Hmmm… yet I believe that Revelation is true with every fiber of my being. Oh also, Jesus told us in Matthew, Mark and Luke that the generation that sees the fig tree bud will not pass away till all these things come to pass. So when did the fig tree bud?

    • Pete

      Yes since the account in Exodus is a narrative, and I read the Bible literally, the blood of the Nile turned to actual blood. Just like actual lice infested the Egyptians, just like the water in the actual Red Sea moved aside to allow the Israelites to pass through on dry land. What John wrote in Revelation (prior to the destruction of the temple in 70AD, not in in 95AD) was allegory, parable, symbolism. It is a different sort of writing than Exodus. Some of the Bible is narrative, some of it is symbols. Just like any other book. Reading it literally means knowing the difference.

      Can you tell me the definition of “plain sense” Bill? Are you SURE you know what it is? Who told you what it is, where is the Authority on “plain sense?” It would solve a lot of arguments.

    • TWR

      Bill,

      Nowhere in the bible does it say the generation that sees the fig tree bud. This is the delusion presented by religion. This is a direct conversation between Jesus and his disciples. He tells them that their current generation will not pass until all is fulfilled. Just like he says in Mark 9:1 people standing in front of him will not taste death until they see the kingdom. It was not a prophecy for the end of the world. It was the end of the age that concluded with the temple destruction.

      • Sorry you can’t find the generation that sees a fig tree budding anywhere in the Bible. See if you can find it in Matt. 24:32-35; Mark 13:28-31; Luke 21:29-33.

      • Sorry you can’t find the generation that sees the fig tree bud anywhere in the Bible. See if you can find a fig tree in Matt. 24:32-35; Mark 13:28-31; Luke:29-33.

        • TWR

          Bill James
          There is a difference between the prophetic word and a conversation. Prophetic word is for future generations. This was conversation. If I say truly I say until you, this generation will not pass until we have a woman president. If someone is looking for a woman president 2,000 years from now, shame on them. I’m not putting anyone down because I feel like I just woke up. That message was not for us, the reader, just like Mark 9:1. It is not the generation, it is this generation.

  • Gee… I’m really lucky to know someone who knows when to interpret the Scripture literally and/or symbolically. Please keep me informed.

    • Pete

      OK Bill, just give up then, don’t answer any of my questions, don’t respond with scripture, just sarcasm. Maybe this is the first step in you actually looking for the truth of these things instead of comfortably accepting what you have been taught. I know it’s a lot easier to believe pre-trib, it’s way more exciting and interesting too. But it isn’t true at all. Prepare to be sorely disappointed when “this generation” runs out in 2028. My prediction is the people who make money from the pre-trib industry will simply switch the start date from 1948 to 1967. Or they will go back to CI Scofield’s made-up definition of the word “generation.” Whatever it takes to keep the story moving along. “Jesus is coming soon!” (since 1830).

      • Phil

        Pete,

        I don’t know the details of your beliefs, and don’t want to assume anything or put words in your mouth. But people are generally reluctant to accept preterist views for good reason. There are verses in the accounts of the Olivet discourse that don’t easily square up with the events of 70AD. In my view, there comes a point where invoking metaphors is not reasonable. The actual Second Coming is one of those. “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him”. The latter part of Luke 21:24 is another. How do you manage things like that?

        Also, I see that you prefer to date the writing of the Revelation as before Titus sacking Jerusalem. But the early church fathers simply don’t support this view. Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He wrote that Revelation “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian”. Domitian died in 96. The weight of the arguments just does not support an early date.

        • Tommy

          Phil
          Also, I see that you prefer to date the writing of the Revelation as before Titus sacking Jerusalem..
          The weight of the arguments just does not support an early date.

          The destruction of Jerusalem was probably the greatest event that happened in the first century after the resurrection. It seems strange John wouldn’t mention it in Rev. The reason why is because Johns writings are before 70 AD. Remember,Jerusalem was TOTALITY destroyed… and he wrote,,, John 5:2
          Now there IS (not was) at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

        • Pete

          Phil thanks for being fair. I am a partial preterist. I think as time goes on more and more people are going to abandon the dispensational pre-mill position and go back to post-millennial views. Revelation says itself that the things in the book would “shortly come to pass” (Rev 1:1). I read the Bible literally, and God doesn’t use meaningless words. The book is a letter to 7 actual assemblies in the 1st century and it had to make sense to them. Telling those people these things would shortly come to pass means what it says. Revelation also dates itself as being written before the temple was destroyed. John was told to go and measure the temple (Rev 11:1-2). John never says that he was given a vision of a future temple, nor is a third, rebuilt temple ever once mentioned in the Bible. I trust the Bible, not the early church fathers.

          There is no concept of the “second” coming or the “return” of Jesus anywhere in the Olivet Discourse. If you read the Bible literally, you would know that the phrase “coming with the clouds of heaven” is a specific reference to the Son of Man ascending to the throne of God, not descending to the planet earth. See Dan 7:13. This most assuredly DID occur, and Jesus now sits at the right hand of the throne of God. The disciples never asked about the “return” of Jesus, they had no idea Jesus was going anywhere. That asked about his “coming” – His Parousia, revealing as King. They wanted to know when the kingdom was going to come. For so long we have been told that Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are bout the end of the world we now read it in there. Can you tell me why Mark 13 and Luke 21 the disciples’ question about Jesus “coming” is nowhere to be found?

          Read the Old Testament. There are dozens of verses that speak of the coming of the LORD upon the world, upon people, upon Israel, upon their enemies. Nobody ever assumes that these “comings” were God in the flesh floating down to planet earth. It’s the same thing here.

          Luke 21:24 talks about the AD70 destruction and Jerusalem was in fact trodden down then, as the Roman empire (the 4th of Daniel’s empires) neared it’s end. None of those 4 great Gentile empires exist anymore today. In fact, there is not a single Gentile empire, strictly speaking, in existence.

          Hope this helps. I can explain anything you want, just ask. Perhaps I can email it to keep so much detail out of the public area. If I don’t know something I will admit it. There are still areas I don’t get. There are weak parts in this view. Far less weakness than the futurist position though.

    • Dan

      Bill , my friend I keep seeing twr bring up Matt 16:28 and although I will be going against what GOD has already told me as twr will still only

      believe the path he’s chosen; I feel this passage like too many is ambiguous but (and GOD knows my heart) I say that with all humility.

      The idea that Christians like to pretend that the bible has captured every conversation and meaning Jesus and his followers had during

      their lifetime is not being intellectually honest. (I hope I said that right). Anyway, I believe in (Matt 16) Jesus was talking

      about the end times and the (28) reference comes about in Matt 17 where Jesus is seen in all his glory; GOD even interjects and during the

      transfiguration and affirmed “This is my beloved son”. For me there is no doubt this is what Jesus was referring to and WE don’t have the full

      picture or story of what happened during this event. But we should be able to accept(I believe) this event was prophetic in regards to Jesus and

      how he will appear when he returns; thus fulfilling what he said. What is proof is GOD did not give us all the answers in the bible(it is obvious)

      and which is the reason I always say “spread the Gospel) because there is no ambiguity in that statement. However I , like twr have allot of

      problems with the history of Christianity and men like twr is a result of what poor stewards we have been. The idea that Christians have

      basically disregarded the Torah is just not right and I believe this was not GOD’s intention but I’m a big believer in GOD letting us mess things up

      and we I hope need no proof to convince us of that ? The state of the body of christ is wretched and sick (much like the condition of man

      before the flood) and it is the very reason for GOD finally putting a stop to it. However, how bold is it for us to think even at our best we would

      have made a difference anyway? People all of this is something GOD is doing and when you accept this you will realize how powerless we all

      really are. Believing in the Gospel and Trusting GOD is not that far removed from the choice Adam had in the beginning better yet now we can

      literally say we Come from GOD’s lineage through Jesus and because of this WE cannot be touched by Lucifer! Praise GOD !

      Blessings

      • Emery

        Dan;
        There is NOTHING ambiguous about Matthew 16:28 at all. It’s very clear.

        • Dan

          Emery, you poor soul you’re not even on the same planet or solar system for that matter with everyone else here.

          To think you have spent all the time to educate yourself on being a JW is just disappointing as I am sure you are a decent and diligent

          loving individual .. Go Home Emery ..

          • Emery

            Dan;
            Me a poor soul? Hardly! You are the poor soul Dan. For 35 of those 40 plus years I had never HEARD of Jehovah’s Witnesses. You are the one who said I spent all that time educating myself on being a JW, I didn’t. Not once. You in fact, invented that. I studied and researched to find the truth about God. And I did find it. It wasn’t until half a dozen years ago that I became associated with JW’s and became an ordained minister of God. And no, there is NOTHING disappointing about any of it. It’s disappointing that someone can say the disparaging things YOU said. And Dan, I take NO commands from you. Who do you think you are anyway? You have no rights to command anyone to do anything. You’re not even qualified to do that. In fact, you’re not qualified to make the comments you do about God’s word, since all your beliefs come from religion. According to God, all religions of men are false religion. There is only one true religion, and it’s what Jesus taught. You don’t belong to that religion. Yours is a false counterfeit fake religion. And it lyingly claims to be Christian to boot. That’s sad Dan. So very sad. And you are correct about everyone else on this blog. They are all part of a religion of man. Not the only one true religion taught by our messiah. That’s even more sad, and disappointing. It is you who should flee from religion as God commanded, and study an accurate copy of His word, and learn the truth. It’s pretty much the opposite of what religion has taught you. Satan is misleading the entire inhabited Earth, and religions of man are his most effective tool, with false translations of God s word being a close second. you are misled by Satan so very thoroughly.

          • Emery

            Dan;
            I never said I spent over 4 decades to become a JW, YOU did. I studied to learn the TRUTH about God, since no religion teaches the truth. It is you who is a “poor soul” for being part of a religion. God said all religions are false. The only real religion is what Jesus taught, and NO religion of man teaches it. And you don’t have any right to command me to do anything. Take your command and find something else to do with it Dan. You’re not qualified to command anyone to do anything for any reason.

      • Ron

        Well Said!

        God Bless You Dan!

        • Dan

          Ron, it is alway good to hear from you ! Please have a wonderful Memorial day my friend !

          GOD bless you Ron !

          • Ron

            God Bless You Too Dan!

            We had this saying in the Navy when someone asked or said something totally ridiculous….

            I Like Your Approach, Now Let’s See You DEPARTURE!

      • TWR

        Dan,

        That was almost a compliment. I know there are a few people I rub wrong, but that is only because they believe they have all the truth. I do not. I believe we were given just enough truth to conform to someone’s theo political aspirations. When a man believes he knows everything, there is nothing else to learn.

        I believe there is evidence to suggest that God reconciles his creation by the ages. Peter speaks of three earth ages. Heavenly bodies are used as signs. In Job 38:31-35, God talks about how he uses the constellations in that manner. We know earth cannot be dated. We know there was life here prior to Adam and Eve. The earth was here and that seemed to be more of a recreation. Each astrological age lasts approximately 2,160 years. Adam and Eve were born in the Taurean age. It was an age of polytheism. The symbology matched the age. It was all about bull and calf worship. The Taurean age was reconciled by the great flood, leaving only Noah and his family to usher in the age of Aries. In this age of Abraham, monotheism began to develop. Symbology changed to the ram or the lamb. The shofar became the symbol. God promised Moses (at the appointed time) he would send Israel a prophet like unto him, meaning he would have the same qualities. He would be a prophet, priest, judge and deliverer of HIS people. I believe scripture confirms, as he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I believe the person you call Jesus, as he ushered in the new age of Pisces, reconciled unto himself the age of Aries. I believe, as scripture indicates, his message was for that age. We are on the verge of another transformation into the Aquarian age. I believe another reconciliation is coming, but not based on the story of the previous age. I believe there are prophetic hints as to the transformation of this age, but only in the prophets.

        As the age of Pisces is phased out, we could move into another age, possibly even the millennium, but life on earth will continue. As this generation phases out, there will once again be a new heaven and new earth. That is not a literal translation. The constellations and heavenly bodies will once again shift and provide the next age with a new set of directives. As it is in heaven, so shall it be on earth.

        This is my revelation. You won’t find it in any book or teaching. I, personally asked God to show me truth. I am light years ahead of the rudimentary concept of religion. Our day of reckoning is coming. We are just reading about theirs. We have to decide what legacy we might leave the next age if they should so happen to be reading our stories. Will we succumb to a hostile takeover by the beast and his false religion/government, or will we be faithful until death and receive our crowns? Who will be the overcomers of this age? I certainly plan to be one.

        • Dan

          TWR, I read all of that only to find out at the bottom it is your revelation and cannot be verified. I did wonder where you were going with

          all of that. The 2 things I happen to agree with you about run deep with me. The history of Christianity and the understanding

          the Torah is not bad. Torah is simply meant to be a way to have a perfect relationship with GOD ; as you already know.

          This feeling with Torah only happened to me about 2 years ago but I know it is right. But don’t misunderstand I do not believe we

          need Torah for redemption. Did you know all the Hebrew letters were formed for a reason and everyone of them are pertaining to

          GOD? When I learned about that from a Rabbi that is when I was hooked.

          • TWR

            Dan,

            The proof is in the story. I just can’t make anyone see it that doesn’t want to. How many times has the world (age) been destroyed? There was life on earth before Adam and Eve. When you properly define world as an age, you see a pattern of judgment every 2100 to 2300 years. There is always a prophet that precedes that judgment. Noah was the first. Jesus was the second. The story tells it all. It is dated. Jesus was very specific in why he came and who he came for. Preachers are teaching gospels and the Pauline doctrine as if it were the prophetic word. These are conversations in which an audience has to be identified in order to determine the scope of the audience. We have been indoctrinated with the assumption that we are that audience. The Taurus age was destroyed by flood. The Aries age was the age targeted in the temple era. They are likely gone. We are the Pisces and likely next to go. Whatever residual affect Jesus had on this age (law of sin and death) means in some way he came for us all. The story of that age is not our story. We are looking for signs the disciples were told to look for. That is the significance of Mark 9:1. God never said he wouldn’t destroy the world again. He just said not by deluge. None of us know what really happened after the temple age. I have seen plenty of history fabricated in my short time on earth.

          • TWR

            Dan,

            Nobody want you to understand Torah living. Torah is instructions on how to live righteous before God. When you understand that, you expose the counterfeit church which is the heart of the beast. You expose Sunday worship and worship in temples made by hand, in which God does not dwell. You expose a church system designed to make man rich. You expose paganism in all its forms. You see the integration of immorality into the church is solely because it is the counterfeit. Living by faith is living by Torah. There is no other definition. This is why Job had a hedge of protection surrounding him that even Satan could not penetrate. That is why Paul (Romans 3:31) said faith does not make void the Law (Torah). The original translation was Torah. He said yea, we establish Torah, not THE LAW. When you live Torah, you expose the ancient evil that changed the Sabbath to Sunday worship for the purpose of breaking the spiritual connection with all Israelites (grafted or lineage). You expose the evil that replaced Holy Days with pagan holidays. Jesus was that instruction (John 5:46-47). When you follow Torah, there is no need for redemption. If Hebrews 9:15 is correct about who Jesus died for then what is your redemption?

          • TWR

            Dan,

            One last thing and I’m done with this thread. I’m directing it at you because you seem more sensible than some of your delusional colleagues.

            Hebrews 9:27King James Version (KJV)
            27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

            Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
            9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

            Jesus says they will not taste death until they have seen the kingdom come with power. He did not say the will not taste death at all. I know the story of Enoch and Elijah give people false hope. If Elijah was John the Baptist, as Jesus states, then he did taste death. Moses died, Jesus die, common sense would tell you at some point, Enoch died. Even when Paul says we shall not all sleep, that does not preclude death. Death is synonymous with transformation. Meeting Christ in the air means spirit. Why would anyone believe that if Jesus died, somehow they don’t have to? Maybe if we can get past that delusion and see the reality of the situation, we can take a more common sense approach.

          • Emery

            Is not “torah living” to IGNORE all of God’s inspired word recorded between the first page of the book of Matthew through the last page of Revelation? Those pages are the ones by which we are commanded to live by, using the older books, pre-Christian writings, as a guide to how Jehovah feels about most things.

  • TWR

    Tommy,

    because there are obvious translation issues with the bible, I do as the bible instructs. when I have a question, the bible says precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little. I gather all the scripture pertaining to what I want to know, weigh the evidence and pray.

    Revelation 3:12
    12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

    Who is his God?

    1 Corinthians 15:24King James Version (KJV)
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    Who is he delivering the kingdom to if he is God? Who is the father? Does Isaiah saying what he would be called outweigh what is in these scriptures, when one was a direct quote? I still say it is irrelevant because whether he is God or the son has nothing to do with salvation. If he wanted us to know without a doubt he was God, scripture would reflect that

  • Dan my friend, it quite clear that Jesus was talking about Pentecost in Mat. 16:28. As Jesus said just before He ascended – “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit…But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (Acts 1:5-8). The Kingdom includes both Jews and Gentiles who have received the Holy Spirit.

    • Dan

      Bill , Matt 16:28 Jesus is referring to pentecost is a new interpretation of the passage for me. I’ve heard many though. Hey , maybe you’re

      right . As long as you’re agreeing that Jesus will also return during the tribulation then we’re good brother!

      • TWR

        God cut the tribulation short, less there be no flesh left. If the tribulation was the end of the world, why would God be worried about their being flesh left. It was their tribulation and flesh had to be left to enter into this new age. What is the purpose of flesh being left if we are all going to be changed?

        • Emery

          twr;
          Only the 144,000 will be “changed”. The “world” WILL be completely and totally destroyed, not the Earth. The world is the people and societies and machinations of societies, governments and religions and so on that are what is going to be exterminated. The Earth will exist and be populated by man to times indefinite. In other words, forever.

          • TWR

            Emery,

            I’m not listening to your false satanic doctrine. Paul says in the blink of an eye, we shall all be changed. That would mean Paul’s letters were only to the 144,000. If Paul’s letters were strictly to them, there are none living today. Paul is an Apostle, not a prophet. In his letters, he was repeating a prophecy to those that would be affected by his letters, not you 2,000 years later. J.W. is pulling the same wool over people’s eyes as any other religion. They have delusion, you have delusions of grandeur. You and a few others on here I won’t name (Ron,Ed, Char, DC) can’t even be objective because you have been thoroughly brainwashed. There is nowhere in scripture that says only 144,000 will be changed. That is a J.W. myth and Charles Taze Russell is probably already in hell with Mohammad, Constantine, and King James.

          • Emery

            twr;
            Now there you go AGAIN saying God’s word is Satanic. You are confused. God is the creator and sovereign ruler of the universe, and His opposer is Satan. NOT the other way around. If God said it it cannot be Satanic, and if Satan said it it cannot be Godly. Got it? How many times do you have to be told this before you get it? God nor His word is Satanic.

            Paul was talking to other members of the 144,000 when he wrote those words twr. He is one also. And yes, Paul’s letters WERE only to the 144,000, the Christian Congregation, Spiritual Israel, the Annointed, the co-heirs with the Christ.. And prophet means several things. It also means messenger of God. Paul was giving a message from God to other members of the annointed. Yes Paul’s letters affect us now. God’s witnesses have nothing to do with wool, or pulling it over eyes.None have delusions. None have delusions of grandeur either. I am totally objective, and have NEVER been brainwashed, God doesn’t brainwash anyone. The entire NT says only the 144,000 will be “changed”. It’s not a myth. God’s word is not a myth as you claim, nor is it Satanic as you claim. No one goes to hell, since it means the common grave of mankind. God does not cooperate with Satan to mislead people into sinning, and then letting Satan take them and torture them for it. That’s absurd of you to think God would ever cooperate with Satan as you claim. Mr. Russell was one of the annointed and is ain heaven working in the Kingdom government, just as God promosed. Mohammad, Constantine, and James the First are sleeping in death.

          • twr

            Emery,

            It is satanic and lies. The bible conclusively proves the world (age) has already ended twice since the creation of Adam and Eve. Each time there was flesh left to carry us into another age of mankind. That was their tribulation, not ours. That is the significance of Mark 9:1 and Matthew 24:33-35. That is why Jesus said he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Gentile salvation was not open then. That is why he said the many he came to ransom his life for can be found in Hebrews 9:15, first testament saints. There are no remnants from that age. Wake up. God cut their tribulation short so there could be flesh left for the new age, just as Noah and his family were left. Strong delusion is a heck of a drug.

          • Emery

            twr;
            No matter how many times you claim that God’s word is Satanic, you can’t make it Satanic. It is from God. For it to be Satanic, it would have to be written by Satan not God. God only destroyed all life on Earth once, and that was the great flood of Noah’s day. It is you who is deluded twr, not me. Your lack of understanding does not change God’s purposes. You seem to want to think it does, but you are mistaken.

          • TWR

            Emery,
            Why do you feel you are qualified to correct me as a witness with a different doctrine? Why is everything I say somehow incorrect in your eyes? Why do you speak on things you cannot comprehend? God’s system has always ben a merit system. Those who were obedient to God were blessed by God. This is the very definition of a merit system. Your faith is rewarded. Job kept God’s commandments and there was a hedge of protection place around him that Satan himself could not penetrate. The Israelites were rewarded for keeping the law and punished for disobedience.

            Psalm 19:9-12King James Version (KJV)
            9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
            10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
            11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

            My thoughts are not crazy. You are. Everything I say comes from scripture, not some fabricated twisted doctrine. It didn’t revert to a merit system. It has always been that way. It is the same in the New Testament.

            1 Peter 4:16-17King James Version (KJV)
            16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
            17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

            Reward for obedience equals a merit system. You lack basic comprehension of word and concept. You keep talking about a law covenant. There is no such thing. You confuse a covenant with the Law. This is a major mistake. The Law is God’s legislation for all of creation. It was given to the children of Israel for their instruction. A covenant is an agreement between two parties. It is not the same as the Law. The new covenant in no way changes the Law. It merely changes the agreement between God and man. You talk about a law covenant like it has negative connotations. God’s law (instruction) has never been considered wrong by anyone but Christians and heathens. Christians don’t know what the law is and heathens don’t care.

            Psalm 19:7-9King James Version (KJV)
            7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
            8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
            9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

            There is a covenant and there is a law, but there is no law covenant. You are going to preach people straight to hell with that concept. The law is perfect. The covenant wasn’t. The new covenant was based on better promises. The old covenant covered earthly life, but there was no salvation.

            Hebrews 8:6-7King James Version (KJV)
            6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

            You need to apply some sort of intellectual thought process in your approach to God’s word. Saying God’s word stands alone is a joke when it comes to religion. Everyone has doctrine and their own interpretations except me.

  • Emery

    Having looked at all these so called “proof texts”, and then comparing what is quoted from the KJV to the ACTUAL texts, that which God ORIGI NALLY inspired to be written for each of those texts, I have seen that not one of these proof texts is a proof text. The KJV has so thoroughly mistranslated these quoted scriptures, that they don’t mean what was initially intended by God. They reflect the beliefs of the Church of England in the late 1500’s and early 1600’s. They do NOT reflect God’s thoughts. And then looking at the analysis of the quoted texts in the article, what they say in the KJV, and what the author claims they say are two different things. Since there is no rapture, they can’t be true in the first place. He says there’s two resurrections, which is correct. When one of the 144,000 dies, they are immediately resurrected as spirit beings, to heaven to work in the government of the Kingdom. The second resurrection is all who died on Earth, in the reverse order of their death, TO EARTH. However, none who died as a judgement, i.e. the flood, Aaron’s sons, and those who die in the tribulation and final battle, won’t be resurrected, neither will those whom God says were wicked. We don’t know who that includes, but we will see. Jesus created no church, he created the Christian Congregation, which is populated ONLY with the 144,000, and they are the only ones to see heaven, since God’s word says we do not have an immortal soul, we ARE a living soul, that if it sins, it dies. Nothing immortal can die, can it. The 144,000 are known by many names, like Spiritual Israel, the Israel of God, and the little flock. There exists a great crowd, or great flock, who are those who worked with, were taught by, and who supported the alive remnant of the 144,000. They are the only ones who God says He will protect in the tribulation and final battle. In fact, when the eighth great world power, that MUST be the U.N., destroys all of Christendom, it marks the beginning of the tribulation. When they finish, they will attempt to go after the Great Crowd or Great Flock. When that happens, God says it’s like sticking a pin in His eye, and He will then initiate the Final Battle, and all else will be destroyed and exterminated from the face of the Earth. After that final battle, only the Great Crowd will be alive. Soon after, the resurrection of the unrighteous begins, and the Great Crowd teaches them the “new scrolls” God has said He will give us. At that time, the Earth will begin to be put back into the paradise He originally purposed for the Earth, and only the righteous will inhabit it. The 144,000 rule Earth with Jesus, from heaven for the thousand years. Just before the eighth great world power goes after the remnant of the 144,000 alive at that time, they are “taken up into the clouds” to be with Jesus, to fight the final battle. This is what the false religions all claim, falsely, is a “rapture”. It’s not.

  • CHAR

    EdW, Ron, Skywatcher, Denise and others who have been responding to Emery…..did you all notice we have 600 comments on this particular subject and probably 450 are from Emery. It’s a good thing he has set us straight. I don’t know what all of us born again, KJV reader/believers would have done if it wasn’t for Emery telling us that the KJV is mistranslated. I actually got through 3 sentences of his comment above before I had to let it go. It really is a shame, but oh well, nothing we can do. We can’t cram it down his throat. All we can do is pray for him, as I do. Eek.
    Please don’t bother commenting to me, Emery, because I won’t read it. Lord help him to understand your Word before it’s too late for him. God Bless you!

    • Emery

      I understand it quite well. I use an ACCURATE set of translations. YOU, however, REFUSE to do so. You would rather read one that only expounds the beliefs of the Church of England at the hands of James the First.

      • Emory, you claim the KJV has 20,000 errors compared to what? In the next sentence you say no one has ever seen the originals. I pray the Lord will give you the ability to think straight before it is too late.

        • Emery

          Bill;
          The errors in the KJV as compared to over 5,000 ancient texts recovered to date. The texts recovered from about 89a.d. in particular. They don’t compare well either to the texts found in Qumran, the ones known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. In fact, they are right now excavating those caves for more scrolls in earthen vessels. They are trying to get the rest before more people loot them. And what do you mean by “in the next sentence you say no one has ever seen the originals.”? That’s just crazy talk Bill. The writers of the originals have seen them. The archeologists who recover these texts, many very well may be original, have seen them. Photographic copies, and digital copies made available to researchers all over the world have been seen by many thousands.

          Pray for whatever you want Bill. But God doesn’t listen to the prayers of unbelievers, unless in them He sees an honest heart. Your questioning one of His servants indicates at least to me, that you don’t have an honest heart. God may well see it the same way. And Bill, I ALWAYS think “straight”, and always have, and always will. If you think that “thinking straight” means using a false translation of God’s word, then you can forget that. I don’t see a need to read it yet again. I’ve gone through the KJV word for word comparing it to the available ancient texts. That’s enough for anyone. It’s very sad to know that it was even created. One should have ACCURATE translations available to them, and those who use the KJV REFUSE to use anything that is accurate.

        • Emery

          Bill;
          That is just as compared to the 5,000 ancient texts of the New Testament. The 6,000 ancient texts of the Old Testament are another point all together. The KJV does not compare accurately to them either, when looking at the Pentateuch or the rest of the Old Testament. The modern Torah is basically from the Masoretic text, dated almost a thousand years AFTER Jesus’ murder by the Jews, over money. Neither does the KJV compare accurately to the Septuagent. It doesn’t compare accurately to the Fouad Papyri, the Rylands Papyrus iii, the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 1, the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2, or the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 3. The Rylands Papyrus 457 and the NT in the KJV don’t compare accurately either. Shall I go on?

  • I see…so you’ve read through 11000 manuscripts. Which one is perfect?

    • Emery

      Bill;
      Now you ‘re just being rediculous. The vast majority of those ancient texts are bits and pieces. Thousands are only one book, or two or three books. In college we used about a hundred manuscripts that contain full books, or mostly full books. We looked through a few thousand fragments. Translating basically was done using about a dozen manuscripts. Perfect? What do you mean by that? What is a perfect manuscript? Never heard of a “perfect manuscript” Bill. You asked about the KJV translation. It does not accurately compare to any of them. Most of what the KJV was COPIED from, not translated, was previously translated from the Masoretic text and the Septuagent in Latin. It was basically translated from a previous set of translations in Latin, translating them into Victorian English which was out dated by about 200 years at the time. No one spoke that way in 1610 and 1611. And no one spoke that way in the first century. The language basically didn’t exist then. While James the First was having it “translated” if you can call it that from Latin into Victorian English, he had it CHANGED to fit the beliefs of the Church of England. The changes to it were DELIBERATE. You basically are reading a Bible created for the Church of England.

    • Emery

      Bill;
      You must realize that the later manuscripts dating as late as the tenth century are compared to the older ones, dating as far back as the first century. In such comparison, one can see that the word of God has been accurately transmitted through the ages. This is because God ensures that we have His inspired word, not something people have changed over the centuries. He wants us to have His word and to use and obey it. Such comparisons show clearly that we DO have accurately copied scrolls and papyrii of His scriptures. Having done this, using all of them is not required to see what His word is. One can take the latest ones, and it’s nearly exactly the same as the first century manuscripts. Comparing ANY of them to the KJV and similar translations, shows that the TRANSLATIONS are falsely translated. NOT that the ancient texts are altered, because THEY are not. It’s the translations that are the problem. the KJV doesn’t compare accurately any more than approximately 55% to any of the complete manuscripts of any of the books of the Bible. New or old testaments both. It seems that if one wants to know what God has to say to us, that one would want an ACCURATE translation. I was wrong. Most people DO NOT WANT ACCURATE TRANSLATIONS. They only want what they are told to want by their religions. God has said ALL religions except the only one, single, true religion as Jesus taught it, are all false religons. Works of the flesh Jesus called them, and in Revelation it calls them Babylon the Great. My only mistake is in thinking people really wanted to know what the inspired word of God says. What they really want is the KJV, which is not the word of God, it’s the word of James the First. Honesty isn’t to be found in religions of man, only in the one true religion that Jesus taught. Not one single religion of man teaches what Jesus taught in it’s entirety, or honestly. Not one. And no two teach the same thing. Odd, isn’t it.

      • Emory, since you are greatest Bible translator of all time, can you give us a summary of the central theme of the Scriptures in 100 words or less?

        • Emery

          Bill;
          Your foul and abhorrent sinning in being sarcastic toward a faithful servant of Jehovah warrants no response to your question. Knowing that you won’t repent of your sin, and you won’t ask for forgiveness on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, I will tell you anyway. There are but two themes of the scriptures if one were to distill them down to their most basic elements. One is the sanctification (making holy) of Jehovah’s name, and our instructions from Him on the coming Kingdom government of the world at the hands of Jesus as King, and the 144,000 as co-kings.

    • Emery

      Bill;
      The preservation of the Scriptures also indicates that the Bible really is from God. Consider these reasons:
      (1) Since the Bible writers originally wrote on perishable material, the Scriptures had to be recopied by hand numerous times throughout the centuries in order to be preserved for future generations. Why is this so remarkable? Not only because there was the risk of human error but also because there were deliberate efforts to tamper with the text. Yet the Bible has come down to us with amazing accuracy, as the discovery of ancient Bible manuscripts confirms.
      (2) The Bible’s preservation is even more amazing when you consider that it has survived fierce opposition. There were times when popes and councils prohibited the reading of the Bible under penalty of excommunication. Many Bible lovers were burned at the stake. But the Bible survived all this opposition and became the world’s most best-selling book ever.
      No other book in human history has survived with accuracy despite repeated recopying by imperfect humans and centuries of bitter attacks by enemies. Is this not convincing proof that the Bible contains “the saying of Jehovah,” which “endures forever”?—1 Peter 1:24, 25.

      Considering the aforementioned reasons, is it not reasonable to assume that the TRANSLATIONS of the saying of Jehovah can be tampered with while translating it into different languages? The KJV, NIV, ASV, DR, and dozens of other most popular translations are quite inaccurate in their translating from the ancient texts, which themselves have been accurately preserved. Only God can cause such preservation for such a long period of time. But that’s only the ancient texts, it’s not the modern translations. Satan influences EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in the “world” which means people and societies, not the planet. He is responsible for the instituting of religions, all of which God says are false. Remember the scripture that says Satan is misleading the entire inhabited Earth? Revelation 12:. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

      Religion and falsely translated Bibles are two of Satan’s most effective means of doing this misleading of people AWAY from God. Satan wants to be proven true and not a liar. He IS a liar. It isn’t Satan who is the rightful sovereign of the entire universe, it’s God the Almighty, Jehovah. Satan is the reason people believe in a trinity, an immortal soul, hellfire, and all the other falsehoods taught by religions. God did His part in preserving the ancient texts He inspired to be written. It’s up to US to discover what they REALLY say and teach. We are not going to succeed if we are so lazy that we take a religion’s word for things about God and His word. Rather, we will receive the wages of sin, which is DEATH. Not death and then torture forever in a place of fire and torment that doesn’t even exist. Such a thing would mean that God and Satan cooperate with eachother. God would have to allow Satan to tempt people to sin, and then God would have to allow Satan to take them and torture them for that deception and sin. Believe me that no cooperation takes place between God and Satan.

  • TWR

    Emery,

    That is why I say your cult teaches nothing new.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)

    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    Paul never seen the inspired books you speak of. Where do you get that we are commanded to live by the New Testament.? That is how I know you are a phony and a plant.

    Matthew 19:17-19King James Version (KJV)

    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Romans 3:31King James Version (KJV)

    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    James 1:25King James Version (KJV)

    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    Man was never instructed to live by anything other than God’s instruction which is Torah (John 5:46-47).

    • Emery

      twr;
      Your extremely childish behavior speaks little for you. As I’ve reiterated time and again, I am a member of the Christian Congregation, begun by Jesus in the first century. That is no cult. I am a member also of a society of ministers of God, and that is no cult either. The society is populated with those who obey God’s command to “be my witnesses”. Are you saying that God commanded all to be His witnesses as part of some cult? I think not. So in any event, what you claim is a cult, is from God and from Jesus, God’s son. You claim God’s word is Satanic and lies, and now you claim God and His son both started a cult. You sure do seem to hate God and His son and God’s inspired word. And you sure do seem to hate God’s dedicated Earthly servants as well. There is a lot of parallel thought and hatred between you and the Pharisees and Scribes and the Sanhedrin who murdered Jesus, over money. Jesus said they would hate and persecute him, and that they would do the same for his followers. You certainly do prove his words completely accurate.

      Your last statement is 100% absolutely false twr. Jesus gave COUNTLESS commands as to how to live and behave for the Christian Congregation, the only real, true religion that exists. He also taught that anything else CLAIMING to be a religion was false, and his Father warned us to “flee” from them. It seems that you adhere to Judaism, which is ALSO a man made religion, created after Israel murdered God’s son. They wanted nothing to do with Jesus or his teachings, so they took the ENDED Mosaic Law Covenant, and twisted it into a man made religion, and then continued to add the TRADITIONS OF MEN to it via the Talmud and haftorah, thinking the thoughts of men supercede the thoughts of God. No, you also are part of a false religion twr. You hate God, His son, His inspired word, and His commands, and His servants. How many prophets of God did ancient Israel murder? They’re not any different than you are today, and you’re not any different than they were back then. Nothing changes, ever.

      • TWR

        Emery,

        I’m not listening to you. You are right about very little. You can summarize the bible with one scripture. Obedience (to God’s commandments) is better than sacrifice (worship). There are only a few scriptures in the bible that talk about the 144,000. It doesn’t describe any duties. There is no indication that they are leaders, are identifiable to mankind, or even have a clue as to who they are. They just followed the lamb. It was a selfless undertaking. It was not look at me, I’m 144,000. That is another myth propagated to set J.W. apart from religion. The bible says there are 12,000 from each tribe. Spiritual Israel is something else fabricated by J.W. We are all supposed to be spiritual Israel (Eph 2:19)

        Adam and Eve died, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Jacob and his sons, Moses, the great prophets, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, 12 Disciples and Paul. Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed unto men to die once. There are some non-Torah observant, self righteous Christians who seem to believe their righteousness exceeds all the aforementioned. Yeah brother, he’s coming for us soon, amen. People think they have earned the right to be transfigured without death. Mark 9:1 says they would not taste death until they seen the kingdom come with power. It never stated they would not taste death at all. Paul said we shall not all sleep. He did not say we shall not all die. Peter and Paul died. Elijah died, even if it was as John the Baptist. Common sense would tell you Enoch did as well. Self-proclaiming 144,000 comes with no privileges. Your delusion may be the strongest.

        • Emery

          twr;
          Since you don’t have a clue as to what God’s message is to us, you are not qualified to make the statement about what I post being wrong. You have no way of knowing if it’s wrong. And though I haven’t counted them, there is a whole section of the scriptures on the annointed, starting with the first page of Matthew right through to the last page of Revelation. It’s all about them, written by them, addressed to them, and is for the purpose of them teaching the rest of the world. They apparently haven’t taught you yet, if they ever will, since you won’t let them. A quote from your post: “It was not look at me, I’m 144,000. ” What is that supposed to mean? You think you’re one of the invited by God 144,000? You’re not. There are no “myths” regarding the society either. Not one, at least not any propagated by any of them. There exist a lot of myths about them propagated by religions, like you, for example. Your misunderstanding of the words of scripture making mention of 12 thousand from each of the 12 tribes doesn’t mean God’s word is wrong, or that I am wrong. It’s YOU who is wrong. You just don’t understand what those words MEAN. Spiritual Israel is not “fabricated” by ANY man, it’s fabricated by God. It is the 144,000. They’re also called the “Israel of God”, the little flock, and so on. It’s just that you’re apparently not capable of understanding those words. And NOTHING is “fabricated” by JW’s. Since all of them believe ONLY what God’s word says, you’re basically AGAIN saying God’s word is false, fabricated, false doctrine, and so on. You keep saying God is a liar, and you keep saying God created a cult. You are sadly wrong on ALL COUNTS. What is “Self-proclaiming 144,000 comes with no privileges. ” What is self proclaiminig 144,000? God chooses them, they don’t “self proclaim” themselves to be invited by God to go to heaven and rule with Jesus. And I don’t have, never have had, nor will ever have any “delusions” twr. You continue to post a lot of them though. For what reason I cannot say, but they are delusions none the less.

      • Phil

        “after Israel murdered God’s son”

        Actually, it was the Father who crushed the Son, and it was His good pleasure. Jesus explained the situation with several stunning Hanukkah announcements:

        “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”

  • Emory the “faithful servant of Jehovah” says – “There are but two themes of the scriptures if one were to distill them down to their most basic elements. One is the sanctification (making holy) of Jehovah’s name, and our instructions from Him on the coming Kingdom government of the world at the hands of Jesus as King, and the 144,000 as co-kings.”

    I prefer to take the Apostle Paul’s advice – “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except JESUS CHRIST and him crucified.” (1Cor. 2:2). At a time when the New Testament wasn’t written yet, the Apostle Paul said – “Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, YOU HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN. For what I received I passed on to you as of FIRST IMPORTANCE: that Christ died for our sins according to the SCRIPTURES, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the SCRIPTURES,” (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

    • Emery

      So you think that the means by which the Kingdom government has associate kings, and the means by which mankind continues to populate the Earth that the Kingdom government will rule over, is the overriding message? The method and the overriding message are not the same. The method is PART of the message, but not the message itself. The scriptures sanctify God’s name, and they tell us how the Kingdom government is set up and ruled, and over whom it will rule and whom it will exterminate. Jesus ransom sacrifice is the method, not the end result. It was God s means of reversing the damage caused in the garden in Eden, when Satan introduced religion of man to the world. You, as part of that religion of man, introduced by Satan, are deceived by Satan. He IS deceiving the ENTIRE inhabited Earth, of which you are a part. You are part of the world, I am not. I obey Jesus, you do not. I obey God, you do not. I remain no part of the religions of the world, you do not. I believe God’s word, you “interpret” it, when God said that interpretation belongs ONLY to Him. You believe man and religion, I only believe God. Starting to notice a pattern here yet?

  • Emory, enough said. No further comments from me.

    • Emery

      Now THAT is a blessing.

  • bremertonchristian

    TWR: please explain the proof you have of a pre-Adam race? Anyone interested in the “age of the earth” question should start in Genesis. There is no such thing as a race that existed before the begining. The gap theory is complete nonsense trying to force God’s word onto a 20th century “scientific” mold. Name a single ancient writer who believed in millions/billions of years. Such foolishness. Let’s assume for a moment God did create a race before the begining, wouldn’t he tell us about them? And if He did all of the ancients would have said believers are crazy. Then modern science comes along and establishes eons of time and an ever expanding universe, exonerating the bible, and all of God’s people would say “see told you”. But that’s not what happened. The Word has stood true this whole time, until Einstein and his rabble of bone heads says “hay ya’ll the earth is way older than six thousand years, see the bible can’t be right about everything because it’s wrong about science”. They have conned some of you folks into believing that you cannot believe the bible and science. Enter Hugh Ross, “folks I’ve solved the riddle, the evening and morning are just words meant to represent vast amounts of time, not an evening and morning”. Every planet in our solar system including moons speaks of a young earth. Earth: sediment layers taken from the Nile delta yield a number less than 20,000 years. Our moon: depth of spaced dust collected at a rate are less than 20,000 years. Jupiter: the largest gas giant in our solar system lacks the velocity to stay in orbit around our sun to provide enuff time to vacuum up a gas/debris field required for the naturalistic model to be plausible. Solaris (our sun): consuming approx 5 feet of depth a day the sun would’ve had to be at least double the size just to make it a billion years, kind of hard for the earth to be older than 4 billion years given that a sun that size would have vaporized planet earth a billion years ago. Watch: A Question of Origins, The Priveledged Planet, A God of Wonders, and Northwest Creation Network to hear from real scientists about our God’s marvellous creation. The bible is not a science book, science books change every day/year, the Word of God doesn’t. Note: NTEB doesn’t run articles on the age of the earth, probably because they get a lot of support from young earthers. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. God bless brothers and sisters, don’t believe the liars, believe the bible.

    • TWR

      bremertonchristian,

      In the original translation of Genesis, the earth came to be formless and void. There are man made structures on this earth that pre-date the creation story. North America has been occupied longer than 6,000 years. Ecclesiastes 1:4, the earth is standing even to time indefinite. What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
      http://www.theseason.org/topical/earth_ages.htm

      • Emery

        Most don’t look at this logically. The scriptures say “let’s make man in our image”, meaning capacity to think, love, reason, etc. Any man before then was not in God’s image, which does not mean physical appearance, because God is not visible. If that were the case, WE would be invisible. Lots of evidence shows humanoid type people lived on Earth before 6,000 years ago, not in God’s image. They look at ALL of God’s word in that way, illogically. Nowhere do the scriptures say whether or not man, before they were made in God’s image, existed on Earth. Evidence shows they did. There could have been other creatures living in civilizations on Earth who were not “man”, and who were not in God’s image. We are not told anything at all about that by God, in His inspired word. What people claim about no humans before 6,000 years ago on Earth, they ASSUME and conclude with their imperfect thinking.

    • Amen bremertonchristian,

      Six 24 hour periods of time were the 6 days of creation.
      First day
      1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

      2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

      3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

      4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

      5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

      All this was done in one 24 hour period. Just as days continue to be every day from that day to this.

      Another great resource for real science is answersingenesis.org with Ken Ham.

      Blessings:-}

      • Emery

        Ed;
        No, they were very, very long ages, periods of time FAR exceeding tens of thousands, or even millions of years each. God describing a DAY does not mean that each creative “day” was one of the 24 hour days He described. That is nothing more than your application of a meaning OTHER than God’s meaning. You act as though you were there with God and the Word in heaven during this creative process. You definately were not. Your web site of Ken Ham’s is not an accurate accounting either. It is ONLY God’s word that is truth. Relying on MEN and RELIGION is the SUREST WAY to be misled.

      • Ron

        Amen Ed!

        Genesis 1:7-8 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

        Genesis 1:9-13 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

        Genesis 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

        Genesis 1:20-23 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

        Genesis 1:24-31 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
        And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

        Genesis 2:1-2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
        And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

        And just as God made the Earth in 6 Literal Days and rested on the 7th.

        The Time Span of Mankind has been around 6,000 Years ( 6 days with respect to how God sees time )
        2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
        Thus the coming Millenium will be like a Sabbatical 1,000 Years with Him ( 7th day with respect to how God sees time ).

        Anyone who claims God couldn’t or did not create The Heavens and Earth and ALL There In is a Blasphemous Fool and are Spitting in

        The Face Of God.

        God “IS NOT” partly Powerful

        God “IS OMNIPOTENT” ALL POWERFUL AND “NOTHING IS” TOO HARD FOR HIM!

        God Bless You Ed!

    • Dan

      Bremertonchristian , thanks for the links A Question of Origins, The Priveledged Planet, A God of Wonders, and Northwest Creation Network

      Blessings

    • Phil

      bremertonchristian,

      “Enter Hugh Ross, “folks I’ve solved the riddle, the evening and morning are just words meant to represent vast amounts of time, not an evening and morning”.”

      Ross has painted himself into a corner and will never get out of it. I had an email exchange with one of his science guys a few years back. He was completely unaware of Mary Schweizter’s 2005 discovery of soft tissue in a T rex femur that was supposed to be 68 million years old. His reaction was just short of comical.

      If you like the technical stuff, Bob Enyart’s site is very good. http://kgov.com/real-science-radio And if you’ve never read about it, you might enjoy the results of a search about the fossil forests of Axel Heiberg Island, which is about 500 miles from the north pole.

      You noticed the keys concerning the days of creation. For all the sappy ideas about yowm possibly meaning a zillion years, ereb (evening) and boqer (morning) have inflexible meanings that don’t allow this. A day was not even defined as a time interval. It was associated with light: “God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.”

  • bremertonchristian

    Thank you all for your responses. : ) yes Ed I have some of Ken Hams’ work, and I agree with his interpretation of the scriptures, from a scientific view point. To all of the old earthers: there is ample evidence for a young creation and I invite you to investigate it for yourselves. I have investigated it and thus far I am a young creationist. God bless and keep up the good dialog!

    • Emery

      Genesis 40:8 At this they said to him: “We each had a dream, but there is no interpreter with us.” Joseph said to them: “Do not interpretations belong to God? Relate it to me, please.”

      We are NOT to interpret scriptures.

      2 Peter 1:20 For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.

      Only GOD interprets, and one who interprets His word is sinning greatly. Joseph had Jehovah with him and told him to hear the king’s dream, and God interpreted it to Joseph, who related the dream to the King. Joseph himself did no interpreting.

      In second Peter it also says no scripture is from any private interpretation. And God does NOT use holy spirit on unbelievers. Anyone who disobeys Him by being part of religion is a believer. He commanded us to “flee” from religion. He said they were “false religion”. Jesus said they were “works of the flesh”. Why do you folks ignore these scriptures? This Ham character is interpreting, sinning, and you eat it up like a starving dog eats gravy.

    • Ron

      bremertonchristian Scientists these days are like certain religions when someone puts a hole in their so called theory or doctrine they make

      changes to their theory or doctrine rather than adjust their belief to their findings.

      The best one I like is when it comes to fossil layers, you got all these different Millions Of Years Layers with particular fossils in each layer.

      But the one I love and it really blows a hole in their millions of years is where the Petrified Wood is still standing upright in the layers penetrating

      all of them thus proving “They were Simultaneous Events” ( Caused by a flood, Hmm????? I’ve read that somewhere? oh yeah Genesis 6!)

      Nothing can be fossilized except by instantly covering an item by enormous pressure of water and silt.

      Cypress logs which were once logged in the late 1800’s / 1900’s left a lot of them in the water and the silica has slowing filled the wood

      cells of these logs, not enough to fossilize, but enough so that these “water Logged” logs when and sanded are highly prized for the sheen

      they have from the embedded silica. How do you get coal? wash all the plant life in a given area under dirt and debris and under incredible

      pressure which creates lots of heat when pressurized rapidly thus in the absence of Oxygen it turns to coal. Only a Flood of Noah’s Magnitude

      could do this.

      How can a Christian call themselves one and not believe in the creation account especially when scientists say the light left that star

      16.9 Billion Light years ago.(One Light Year = 5,879,000,000,000 Miles!) so that is how old the universe is yet.

      This shows what God did for all the objects light to be here visible from Earth at Creation….

      Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

      and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;

      that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,

      and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

      So God exceeded ( No Limit To our God’s Power!!!!!!!!!) The speed of Light by a Factor ( Assuming it took a second and the rest of the Day

      He took His Leisurely time naming ALL HIS Stars ) IN EXCESS of 500 QUADRILLION OR 500 X 10 TO THE 15th Power!!!!!!!!

      And that figure is only assuming on my part the universe is only 16.9 Billion Light years across, it could be 10 to 1,000,000 times bigger

      and you would have to adjust God’s Exceeded Speed of Light Accordingly. Hubble keeps seeing farther and farther out into God’s Cosmos!

      There is the answer in Isaiah 40:22 it wasn’t the big bang! IT WAS THE LORD OUR GOD!!!!!

      Evolution and Big Bang bah humbug!!!!!

      CREATION IS THE ONLY THE ONLY TRUTH ALL ELSE IS FALSEHOOD!!!

      God Bless You bremertonchristian and Dan!

  • God spoke and there was a Big Bang!

    • Ron

      True Bill I Love Your statement, but not the way Scientists claim it happened! The only big bang is when they fell asleep in class and hit their

      Heads! Theirs is absurd, how something came from nothing, and then magically formed into organized matter all by itself.

      Which this all goes against their quantum mechanics theory in that all matter is in a state of decay.

      God Bless You Bill!

    • Emery

      And you imagined this? Nowhere did God put that into His inspired word.

  • bremertonchristian

    Emery: calm down bro, in essentials (unity), in non essentials (liberty), in all things (agape). I was a young earth creationist millions of years before I had ever heard of Ken Ham. So tell me, is it your private interpretation of scriptures that said to you an evening and a morning was the first huuuuge quantity of time, or the Holy Spirit? Practice what you preach. Your preconceived idea about vast amounts of time did not come from a plain reading of the bible. No sir, it came from your publicly educated, nonbelieving mind. How did God spread the good news before you came along and retranslated 20,000 errors in the KJV? I am a bible literalist, I take the bible literally whenever I can. P.S. millions of years and vast quantities of time are a new theory. So did no one no the truth until the 1800s? Charles Darwin was a tool used by Satan to steal people’s faith. If we can’t believe the creation a count what can we believe?

    • Emery

      Calm down from what? Why? I am always “calm”. As I explained, God has said we are NOT to interpret His scriptures, ever, for any reason. Publicy educated? Only in translating. I practice everything I preach, and the entire will of God, as we are commanded to do. I have no “preconceived ideas” about anything, especially the scriptures. Nonbelieving mind? No, definately not. I am a Christian. Not what YOU call a Christian, because that’s not Christian. Before I translated the over 20,000 errors in the KJV? Many have done it before me. Your sarcasm is a sin in God’s eyes. Jesus told us how to talk to one another, and you are not obeying those commands. You can be a “literalist” or whatever you want. I however, believe God’s word for what it is. A very great many figures of speech are in the scriptures, does this mean you don’t believe that? if so, I feel sorry for you. The ages of each day is most definately not a new theory, or an old thoery, or any kind of thoery at all. It’s fact. Yes, many knew the truth before the 1800’s. The truth was known in the first century, and ever since. Where do you get these sarcastic ideas anyway? Your religion? Or your friends? or both?

  • bremertonchristian

    Please site the ancient author/poet/work/writing/inscription/or anything else that declares vast quantities of time /millions of years etc… All I am saying is it is a new concept. A concept provided by non-believers. Vast quantities of time and the bible are opposing views, unless of course you get a team of lawyers together who redefine plain English words. Read the creation account again, when He says “the evening and morning…” it reads like He put that in there to ensure everyone understood He means one literal, normal day. When I said calm down what I was thinking is you don’t have to use all caps to shout on the internet. It feels like you are shouting when I read your post. i thought you said that you personally translated 20,000 errors in the KJV. Don’t you believe God has provided His word for all through the ages?Finaly: if you can’t believe the creation account what can you believe? Src off

    • Emery

      I won’t cite anything, but it’s the word of God that says it’s ages, not 24 hour days. The problem here, is that you don’t take God’s word as a whole. You take one sentence and claim it means something other than what it actually means. That’s a tactic of religions, ALL of which are false. The entirety of the scriptures teach us that a day can be a day, a thousand years, or an unspecified great amount of time. Taking each of those accounts out of context, can be very misleading. It’s the ENTIRETY of the word of God, not a piece that tells us these things. One can’t “shout” on the internet either. Don’t be rediculous. I didn’t say I personally translated the 20,000 errors. 7,210 alone are simply the REMOVED personal name of God. It only occurs 4 times in the KJV, when the actual texts from which it was translated have it 7,210 times. All one must do is count the actual occurrences of hades, sheol, and gehenna, having been falsely translated to hell in the KJV, and you have hundreds more. I could go on, but there’s no point. Changing ONE WORD of a translation makes the translator God’s enemy, and the translation false and unusable by anyone honest. Yes, God has provided His word. There exist over 15,000 ancient texts to date, and more are found daily. But the TRANSLATIONS are something He doesn’t control. Satan does that. He doesn’t protect a translation, because it’s not His word, it’s man’s translation. Why do you keep saying “if you can’t believe the creation account what can you believe?” You’re stuck on that. no one said I don’t believe that Jehovah God created everything. I said YOUR account of what a creative day is is completely wrong. God’s account is not.

    • Ron

      bremertonchristian here is an interesting fact

      According to Brent Miller the majority of Christians believe in Evolution and the Big Bang Theory

      In the USA 40% of Christians believe in in Evolution and the Big Bang Theory

      So 60% of Christians in The USA believe in Creationism, and we know who comprises that group and like you said……..

      Finaly: if you can’t believe the creation account what can you believe? It is one one step away from abandoning your belief in God

      and believing the AC is god instead. And you know what They Will Believe in Him.

      God Bless You bremertonchristian!

  • bremertonchristian

    God’s account says evening and morning = day. Case closed.

    • Emery

      To the unbeliever who is also undiscerning, I suppose you would come to that conclusion. Nothing else posted on this site is even close to what God said, why would you be any different?

  • Bible Based Christian

    This is not news. To the non Christians you all look like a bunch of drunk brawlers in a bar fight. This is the wrong war to fight. Go soul winning. Pray for one another. Read your Bible. Do something that will make our Heavenly Father smile on you. Gal 5:15, But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

    • Bible Based Christian, Amen, truer words were never spoken!

    • Ron

      Bible Based Christian Sadly we live in the age of “APOSTASY” which means “FALSE DOCTRINE IS RUNNING RAMPANT”

      Is It Not? Therefor it also means we have plenty of people who will settle for “Ear Tickling” so if we are a site of True Christians,

      Which Many Here are. We are to Shine The Light of “God’s Word” To “Expose False Doctrine” and “The False Prophets” .

      They may not be many here on this site, but in case you haven’t noticed account for 3/4 of all posts!

      You Obviously Forgot that the Christian Life is not a walk thru the Daisies, but is a Battle fought.

      Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

      The way you speak sounds like the same way the Church’s inside their buildings are now infiltrated with false doctrine, nobody challenged

      in the churches and look where they are now!

      Well Unless Geoffrey Grider kicks us off his NTEB website, we shall continue to do such.

      Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

      Jude 1:12-13 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

      Jude 1:17-20 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

      Jude 1:22-23 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

      And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

      Quote:”This is the wrong war to fight.”:End Quote, sorry wrong answer on this one.

      Quote:”Go soul winning. Pray for one another. Read your Bible.”:End Quote Good Answer yes we all need to do this.

      God Bless You Bible Based Christian!

      • Bible Based Christian

        This article is listed under the “Headline News” section. Just passing by, I see this doctrinal article about the time of the Rapture that always causes a good fight. My point is that this is not news, but, thems fightin words! I could join the fight, or I could go fight a different fight. I didn’t come to talk doctrine I came to check out some news. Web-Rage happens just like road rage, I didn’t come for that. Choose your fights wisely, and know that you will be rewarded if and when you win that fight.

        See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
        Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
        Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. Eph 5:15-17

        Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
        Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. Col 4:5-6

        These words of wisdom tell me not to waste my time on web rage.
        I hope my words and His words are helpful.

        Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 1Ti 6:12

        With kindness,
        Bible Based Christian

        • Ron

          No web rage here, I just hate satan and his demons. Satan more than knows it , I recognized his ilk when I just 7 or 8 years old

          (in their actions in my life, not physically see them) and I used to be so angry with God over it for had happened in my life.

          The ironic thing is, the thing I was most angry with God about turned out to be the very thing that caused me to be both saved and even

          increase my hate for even more for satan and his demons. If I were not saved the tirades I have done against satan and his demons I

          would have been completely done in because I would have been powerless against them. As we get closer to Our Blessed Hope the less

          I will allow room for him among God’s Church.

          After all satan and his demons don’t need to go among the worldly he already owns and has them.

          Satan is Just like in the book of Job, he goes among the Children of God to divide and try to conquer.

          Everyone in the Church of God has a particular place in the Body of Christ.

          Mine is here, and we all are to “Go soul winning. Pray for one another. Read your Bible.” as you stated

          God Bless You in Your Place in His Body. May you win many souls in your endeavor for The Lord Bible Based Christian!

          Many Blessings!!!!!

  • CHAR

    Ron, you are so right when commenting to Bible Based Christian! I have learned SO MUCH on this website, good and bad about churches, people and events in the world whether these things are good or bad, I learned from them.

    Let’s all keep up the good work of speaking out when it needs to be spoken and Geoffrey, keep reporting the good, the bad and ugly. It’s ALL in the world today and we need to know about it and learn from it.

    God bless you, Ron!

    • Ron

      Sorry CHAR, I get things mixed up but none the less I am still praying for you. Sorry for your loss.

      God Bless You CHAR!

  • Ron

    I have learned a lot here too.

    I pray your mom is doing well and yourself. God Bless You CHAR

  • CHAR

    Ron, just so you know, it’s DC’s mom that had surgery. My mom is with the Lord for many years now, my children need prayer for salvation though if you would like to remember them in your prayers.. God Bless!

  • bremertonchristian

    God bless you char and family, Ron, bible based christian, emery, and all other readers here. I agree with you char and Ron and to some extent bible based christian. Where I work we have a model; level 1, level 2, and level 3 events. Level one being least severe and level two being more severe with a level three event being catastrophic. The theory is if you catch and mitigate your level 1 and 2 events you drastically decrease your chances of a level 3 event. Ron’s words remind me of that. Yes bible based christian I agree this is a level one topic but left unchecked it increases until reaching criticality. When you look at the statistics of Christians leaving college, I’ve heard it said it is up to 90% college grads leave school without their faith. Science is the religion of the 21st century. It is not a small issue in the grand scene of things. This site is a great place for Christians to chew on meat. Like char I have learned a great deal here, a lot from the comments. Let’s not be too afraid to talk about it in brotherly love.

    • Ron

      How very true bremertonchristian, and at the same time how very sad. That is what colleges these days are, satanic indoctrination instead

      of Instruction in the Word of God which they were in the beginning. Those who have corrupted these children’s mind’s by their teaching that God

      is an imaginary person and now we have our science which answers everything (which it does not!) had best well remember this Scripture with

      respect to them leaving School without their Faith in Christ anymore…..

      Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

      God isn’t kidding and on Judgment Day they will Regret It Dearly.

      God Bless You bremertonchristian!

  • CHAR

    Bible Based Christian, one more thing to tell you. Please don’t think I’m ATTACKING you because I’m not. I’m a peaceful, joyful Bible believer, but you said in your comment that we should pray for one another and I wanted you to know that some of us DO pray for one another. We even pray for misguided JW Emery because he hasn’t had the wonderful experience of the indwelling Holy Spirit yet and many of us are praying for him to someday soon receive that experience and be ready when the Lord from above says “come up hither”. God Bless you and yours!

  • Eddie R

    I think I may have figured out twr. He said his father was a minster in church since he was 12, says he’s had enough doctrine, he’s now 51. maybe the truth is he knows the truth Gods told him he’s put it off to long and sinned away his day of grace. Now he knows and is trying to find another way. He scared, he knows were hes head and there’s not one thing he can do about it.

    • Ron

      That is a very wise insight Eddie it seems like you have read all his posts and came to this conclusion with The Wisdom of The Holy Spirit.

      I don’t have much to do with that little group they are over 3/4’s of all comments.

      God Bless You Eddie!

      • TWR

        Ron,

        There is no wisdom of the holy spirit at work here. You can’t even comprehend basic concepts like rapture.

        Hebrews 9:27King James Version (KJV)
        27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

        There are no exceptions. How does that fit in with your concept of rapture? The old testament saints slept. They had to wait on Jesus to accomplish his mission and release them from captivity. Paul said we shall not all sleep, but he did not say that none would not die. Those who would not sleep would be alive at the second coming, at the end of the age. The end of the age was the end of the world.

        Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
        9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

        Jesus didn’t say they would not taste death at all, he said until they seen the kingdom.

        Daniel 12:2King James Version (KJV)
        2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

        How could any Jesus or Paul ministered to not be sleep after 2,000 years? The end of the world was the end of the age. It’s ok to be a die hard believer, but God gives us wisdom and common sense to discern what we read. At least he gives that to some of us. Some of you skipped that line. All of you who like to judge and put TWR down, I can’t even take you serious because you lack basic comprehension skills. Doctrine trumps word for you.

    • TWR

      Eddie R,

      You could not be more wrong. You and your crew are in danger. I will tell you why. You are so desperate for salvation that you cannot properly evaluate the bible story. The world has already ended twice, that we know of. Jesus was not preaching the end of the world, but the end of the age. Strong’s Greek 165. aion ahee-ohn’ from the same as 104; properly, an age. An astrological age is approximately 2,160 years. The time between ages is called a cusp. There were 2,000 years between Adam and Abraham and from Abraham to Jesus. Between Taurus and Aries, God sent Noah. They didn’t listen and were judged. Between Aries and Pisces, God sent Jesus. Those who did not listen have been judged.

      The first covenant did not include a plan of salvation. Those Israelites under the first covenant had to wait for the sacrifice of Jesus in order to be judged. They were the only one’s who needed a savior. That is why Jesus said the Son of man came to save that which was lost. He was only sent to Israel. Hebrews 9:22 says all things are cleansed with blood according to the law, and unless blood is poured out, no forgiveness takes place. Gentiles were never under the law, so Jesus death could not have been for you. Hebrews 9:26 says he manifested himself once for all time at the end of the world to put sin away through his sacrifice. The end of the world is the end of the age. That is why Jesus preached the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

      Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
      9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that STAND HERE here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

      Matthew 24:3King James Version (KJV)
      3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

      The end of the world was the end of the age. The desecration and destruction of the temple was obviously the high mark for the signs of the end of that age. Everything Jesus told his disciples privately about the signs of the coming end of the age had to happen, or the total ministry of Jesus is invalid.

      Matthew 24:33-35King James Version (KJV)
      33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

      34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

      35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

      Revelation 1:1King James Version (KJV)

      1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

      Christians are so desperate for salvation, they can’t comprehend that this particular story is not inclusive of this age or dispensation. It is only thru deceit of the RCC and her daughter that we still believe we are living in the New Testament. We have all been deceived. The proper interpretation of one word (world) can change the context of the whole story. The amplified and ESV properly defines world as an age. Nobody knows when or if the world is going to end, but the age will. If by desperation or lack of intelligence, you can’t discern between end of the world and the age, you will never understand me. God said he destroyed the world by flood but we are still here. God has opened my eyes. Hopefully he does the same for you and your crew.

    • TWR

      Eddie R,

      I pray for all of you, that God will allow you discernment. The end of a world is the end of an age. It is a fact.

      Deuteronomy 18:18-20King James Version (KJV)
      18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

      19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

      20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

      Why did God wait almost 2,000 years to send Jesus?

      Hebrews 9:26King James Version (KJV)
      26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (age): but now once in the end of the world (age) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

      Jesus was only sent to Israel to redeem Israel of that age. Matthew 20:28 says he came to ransom his life for many (not all).

      Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)
      15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

      The first testament saints were the second age. The first age was already judged by the flood. This is the age (world) of Pisces. We are not in the story, tho we can use it as an example. The ministry of Paul and the disciples was for saints and gentiles of that age that concluded with the desecration and destruction of the temple. You were never under the law. There was no blood shed for you. Blood was shed for forgiveness of sins for those who were under the law.

      Hebrews 9:22King James Version (KJV)
      22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

      Nobody ever promised the sins of Christians would be forgiven. This is a promise that was made strictly to Israelites of the law covenant.

      Jeremiah 50:20King James Version (KJV)
      20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

      I’m not worried about where I’m headed. I keep the commandments. God has delivered me from the strong delusion that I’m living in the book. I understand the bible is for correction, reproof and instruction in righteousness. I don’t live in it and I’m not trying to live in the history of the Israelite story. Rome incorporated the Hebrew in its collection of religions from conquered nations. They came up with doctrine to fool Christians into believing they were living it. They supported the doctrine with shady translation of the bible. This pagan religion was never designed to serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You need to be scared about where you are headed.

  • DeniseC

    “Defending the Pre-Trib Rapture” by Todd Strandberg:

    https://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

  • CHAR

    DeniseC, your link covers it ALL. If you don’t understand it after reading this, then you, as I think Vietnam Larry said, you need check up from the neck up. Thanks for the link It’s very easy to understand.

    • DeniseC

      Thanks, Char. I am now downloading articles I find on the pre-trib Rapture b/c we seem to come across more deniers all the time. I have that one, 2 of Geoffrey’s and 2 from Christ in Prophecy (Dr. David Reagan/Nathan Jones) so far. I don’t know how to organize documents (or pics ) into one file/folder yet, however, so I’m waiting to add to it until I learn that. I plan to call it my Blessed Hope folder when I figure it out. I am embarrassed to admit my lack sometimes. (When I was teaching, the principal wanted us to email units to him in an attachment and he had to show me how to do it! Yes, the university really did give me a degree, hahaha. I’m more Old School than anything—still take notes with pencil and paper.)

    • TWR

      There is a very logical reason why people don’t believe. Not only is the rapture not biblical, your concept of rapture goes against bible teaching.

      Hebrews 9:27King James Version (KJV)
      27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

      Rapture believers are not Christians, they are Trekkies. Scottie will beam you up while you are still alive. Every man has to die once. There are no exceptions.

      1 Corinthians 15:53King James Version (KJV)
      53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

      Death and sleep are not the same.

      Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)
      9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

      Jesus said some would not taste death UNTIL they seen the kingdom of God come with power. He did not say they would not taste death at all. The ones who did not sleep are the ones who made it until the end of the temple age.

      Daniel 12:11-12King James Version (KJV)
      11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

      12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

      God told Daniel to go ahead and rest until the end of the age.

      Daniel 12:13King James Version (KJV)
      13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

      If Paul said we shall not all sleep, this is exactly what Jesus is saying in Mark 9:1. Mark 9:1 didn’t say they wouldn’t die. Paul was talking to Israelites and gentiles of that age. If not, they have been sleep for almost 2,000 years. The end of the world was the end of the age. Whether or not you believe that, your concept of the rapture is better suited for a star trek episode. Your apostle said all men will die once. Moses, Abraham, Jacob, the prophets, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, disciples, Peter and Paul all died. Elijah died, as John the Baptist. It’s safe to assume Enoch died, as we all will. Anybody that can’t understand that, as Vietnam Larry said, you need a check up from the neck up.

      • Ron

        You Know TWR

        If I were Face To Face with You

        I WOULD BE ABLE TO PROVE YOU ARE A FALSE PROPHET ONCE AND FOR ALL!

        By Giving You The False Prophet Test Of ….

        1 John 4:1**Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:

        **because many false prophets are gone out into the world.**

        1 John 4:2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

        1 John 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

        **and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.**

        I have used this Scripture on many FALSE PROPHETS; JW’s, Mormons, Cult Churches, e.t.c.

        First I Read Them These 3 Verses,

        THEN I SAY HERE IS MY CONFESSION:

        “I CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH!”

        I THEN SAY:”

        “OKAY LET’S HEAR YOUR CONFESSION!”

        THEY HAVE ALL TURNED RED FACED AND STAYED COMPLETELY SILENT!

        I THEN SAY

        YOU JUST PROVED WHAT YOU ARE A FALSE PROPHET

        A Confession can only come ORALLY!

        AND YOU CANNOT CONFESS IT

        • TWR

          Ron,

          If you dream, dream big. Never said I was a prophet. That is just obvious with how I discern the word. I don’t need titles to define me. I dropped off to let you discuss your foolish delusions amongst yourselves. As usual, somebody has to resurrect the name of TWR. Nobody on the site has the spirit or the I.Q. to prove that I am wrong bout anything. You just hate. Keep dreaming.

          Hebrews 9:27King James Version (KJV)
          27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

          There goes the rapture. You might want to listen to the prophet. Don’t be like the days of Noah. That is always how it goes. We have learned nothing. Word trumps doctrine. If you could prove I was a false prophet with word, I bow down. All you have is your doctrine. I destroy doctrine. You can’t find one scripture to refute one word I said. I respect your fantasy. I hope Captain Kirk has mercy on all the souls of the rapture believers and beams you up. Otherwise, you have to be like all men and die once.

          • Phil

            TWR,

            “ ‘And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment’

            There goes the rapture.”

            Wow. That seems reckless to me. If you use this verse like that, then you’d have say that at least 2 people in the OT, and 5 in the NT who were raised from the dead, were actually not, because they died twice. And the verse says they can only die once.

            But can I ask a favor? The problem is right here in 1 Thessalonians 4:

            14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
            15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
            16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
            17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            As peculiar as the events the passage might be, they are not particularly vague. Can you explain what is being described in each verse, and when you think these things occurred, or will occur?

        • Emery

          Great! Tell us all what chapter in God’s word where it says “false prophet test located here” so we can ALL use it! And God’s witnesses aren’t a “cult”. He has had witnesses since Isaiah’s day: Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah,
          “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen,
          So that you may know and have faith in me
          And understand that I am the same One.
          Before me no God was formed,
          And after me there has been none.
          11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
          12 “I am the One who declared and saved and made known
          When there was no foreign god among you.
          So you are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “and I am God.

          So were THEY a cult? Not hardly. Hebrews 12:12 So, then, because we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also throw off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
          Were the great cloud of witnesses a “cult”? Not hardly. Are these a cult mentioned in 2 Timothy:2:2 You, therefore, my child, keep on acquiring power in the undeserved kindness that is in Christ Jesus; 2 and the things you heard from me that were supported by many witnesses, these things entrust to faithful men, who, in turn, will be adequately qualified to teach others.

          God DOESN’T START CULTS. His servants have NEVER BEEN A CULT. Nor are they now Ron. Did Jesus start a cult the night before his death? No. So neither God, nor His SON start a cult, yet you call them a cult. If you want an example of one, look at “born again” So-called Christians. Now THEY all behave like cult members, beligerantly and nastily defending their false beliefs about God’s word, using their falsely translated Bible. I think you’re a hypocrite Ron.

          • Ron

            Let me show you being written about in God’s Word….

            Revelation 3:7-8 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

            We who are born again in Jesus Christ are The Church of Philadelphia, which is Brotherly Love…..

            (CHAR, DeniseC, Skywatcher, Skywatcher57, Grace, Donna Brown, Larry the Veteran, Buffalo Billy, Leigh, and a bunch of others)

            YOU ALWAYS TALK ABOUT “BEING PART OF THE 144,000 WHICH ARE JEWS BY THE WAY. “

            You are not Jewish….

            Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan,

            which say they are Jews, and are not,

            but do lie;

            behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

            Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ There are many Synagogues of Satan Out there

            Please read and use I John chapter 4 verses 1 to 3 to expose False Prophets!

            Where is this test you say Emery right in front of your nose in those Scriptures above.

            TWR you are telling people of another Gospel that is an Abomination, both you and Emery and because of that it

            makes you Both False Prophets

            whether or not you call yourselves Prophets! PERIOD!

            You are angry because I am spreading The Word that can expose the likes of you.

            Hypocrite, we all are to some extent, so go stand in the mirror Emery. If I am a hypocrite ask the others

            (not your buddy that is an opinion that I wouldn’t give 2 cents for) to accuse me like wise, I accept criticism from True

            Believers Not False Prophets when it comes to The Bible.

            BEWARE! Remember Job’s Friends! But you won’t understand that either will you, since you can’t understand just 3 VERSES?

        • Pete

          Ron, you said “We who are born again in Jesus Christ are The Church of Philadelphia, which is Brotherly Love…..”.

          Can you produce some scripture to support this please? Thank you.

          • Ron

            Pete I could tell you something Spiritual and you would just Mock it like you have always done but I will give you a Scripture fitting of

            You…..

            Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,

            neither cast ye your pearls before swine,

            lest they trample them under their feet,

            and turn again and rend you.

            This is all you’ll get from me for your mocking snarky sarcastic attitude. You don’t want to know anything you just want to make a

            mockery, so laugh it up all by yourself and bide your time until The Lord gives you your just recompense.

            You need your lips circumcised, because your heart sure isn’t!

            have a nice day!

          • Emery

            Ron;
            Colossians 4:6 Let your words always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should answer each person.

            Why must you IGNORE God’s teachings, and Jesus’ teachings about how we should behave toward eachother? I know no religion teaches God’s commands and His will for us, but you MUST have read His inspired word at some point.

          • Ron

            Emery you would do very well to abide by your own words.

            Next time you try to come across as such,

            I will cut and paste one of your previous rants against me and darken all the text for everyone to see

            and include it when you make hypocritical statements like the one you just made!

            Jesus went after those who were False Prophets, mockers, hypocrites,

            and the like and He wasn’t polite to them.

            Why?

            BECAUSE THEIR DOCTRINE LED PEOPLE AWAY FROM GOD

            NOT TO HIM!

            YOU ARE THE SAME AS THIS

            Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

            for ye are like unto whited sepulchres,

            which indeed appear beautiful outward,

            but are within full of dead men’s bones,

            and of all uncleanness.

            The Holy Spirit of The Lord just Revealed to me ( And I was asking myself: why are they staying around Geoffrey’s Rapture Blog?)

            **Because in your Hearts you know The Rapture is True,

            and just like your god ( notice the LITTLE “g”) who wants to take as many as possible with him,

            SO DO YOU!

            and this fits YOU PERFECTLY!

            Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

            for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

            for ye neither go in yourselves,

            neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

            Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents,

            ye generation of vipers,

            how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

          • Emery

            Ron;
            You are free to cut and paste anything you want, but I have never posted a “rant” nor have I ever displayed hypocrisy. I have posted only facts, always, on all sites I visit. I don’t post “my own words” as a rule, I post God’s words. His inspired word, and His principles derived from those words. As far as “darken all text” ron, usually when one posts falsehoods, he has ALREADY darkened the texts he writes. I posted no “hypocrital statements” ever Ron. Stating that God’s word is hypocritical is the height of arrogance and ignorance. Since God admonishes us to be humble (opposite of arrogant) and to become wise and knowledgeable (opposite of ignorance), that is what I strive constantly to do. You display the opposite.

            Posting falsehoods about God and His word leads people AWAY from God Ron. I have yet to see anyone post the truth. Do the math. God’s spirit reveals NOTHING to you. Being part of a religion, God has nothing to do with you at all. You disobey Him by not fleeing from religions of man.

        • TWR

          Ron,

          The end of the world was the end of the age.

          Revelation 1:1King James Version (KJV)

          1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

          I’m sure the church of Philadelphia is long gone. Let’s get this clear. If a prophet speaks a word that does not come from God, then he is a false prophet.

          Mark 9:1King James Version (KJV)

          9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

          Case closed. The message of Jesus was for his generation. If what he said did not come to pass for that generation, he was a false prophet and the entire New Testament is invalidated. I know he is real and that is why I know the truth. You have me confused with Emery. I never said I was Jewish or 144,000. I happen to know there is a distinct difference between Israelites and Jews. Jews may be Abraham’s descendants, but they are not Jacob’s.

          Christianity is an abomination to the Hebrew faith whose foundation is every commandment of God. Christianity is the religion that tells you that those commandments are no longer valid or they are just for Jews, when God made one man (Ephesians 2:15). Christianity worships other gods with pagan celebrations like Christmas (Jeremiah 10:2-4), Easter (Jeremiah 7:18), and many more. The Hebrew faith is simple and pure. Christianity was designed to incorporate the faith of nations it conquered, including heathen nations. The doctrine you teach is an abomination to the true faith. Why would Jesus come to change God’s law, or how could he? Then, he didn’t. He said not one jot or tittle would pass away as long as heaven and earth are standing.

          I’m not angry at you or anyone. I could care less what you spread. You are the one that has to pay for misleading people. You are a Christian. You spread false religion of a story that is already complete. The satanic Roman Empire developed a religion and you are all in. I’m happy for you. I know they say we only use 10% of our brain capacity. If you or anyone else can’t see who Jesus came for (Matthew 15:24), died for (Hebrews 9:15) and came back for at the end of the temple age, you all are functioning critically lower than 10%. When it comes to the God of Israel, I’m spot on. When it comes to false religion, if I have to be your false prophet, so be it. I woke up and returned to the faith. People thought Noah was a false prophet and crazy. Is that supposed to bother me coming fro you? You can easily expose me when it comes to false doctrine. You are equally exposed to the true word and intent of the God of Israel. God has never been, nor claimed to be the God of Christianity. He did not convert. None of our ancestors willingly converted to Christianity. The Israelites were God’s chosen people. All they had to do was believe in another path to salvation. What sense would it have made to change their name? The Messiah’s name was not Jesus. The letter J is about 500 years old. His name is not Christ and he wasn’t the first to be called Christ or have Christian followers. I have returned to the faith and the commandments. I suggest you do the same.

          • Emery

            No, it was not the end of the age. The not tasting death was referring to the annointed, who upon dying were instantly resurrected to spirit bodies and taken to be with Jesus in the Kingdom government. So in a sense, they didn’t ever die really. They spent no time in the grave unconscious as do we when we die. And as to your other comment about a rediculous assumption, I make no assumptions, post no opinions, and nothing I post is ever rediculous. Only to those who don’t understand God’s word, and who are the unbelievers associated with religions. All who are part of a religion are in God’s eyes, unbelievers.

        • Pete

          Ron, it speaks volumes when all I ask for is scriptural proof of your claim, and all you can do is insult me. What a gift you have.

          • Ron

            Pete it is a Spiritual issue which you neither understand or care to understand and your opinion based on past experience is

            worthless.

            Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,

            neither cast ye your pearls before swine,

            lest they trample them under their feet,

            and turn again and rend you.

            This is all you’ll get from me for your mocking snarky sarcastic attitude. You don’t want to know anything you just want to make a

            mockery, so laugh it up all by yourself and bide your time until The Lord gives you your just recompense.

            You need your lips circumcised, not add more skin to them. because your heart sure isn’t!

            have a nice day!

          • Emery

            Ron;
            Pete makes a good point saying you insult him. You act, though, as if all that you say is accurate, when actually, none of it really is. Show some humility and do some research, THEN make your position known. A man who speaks without first checking if what he is going to say is accurate, is a fool.

  • CHAR

    DeniseC, you’re not alone on that. I am absolutely a ditz when it comes to the inner workings of the computer. I was an Administrative Secretary most of my working days and prided myself on my typing skills, but these young whipper snappers have left me in the dust when it comes to figuring out what’s going on with the computer. I learned how to type on an old manual typewriter in high school (which they would be looking for the button to turn it on). I’m obsolete, but I just call my grandson and he can get me back working (if he’s not too busy doing his own thing).

  • TWR

    Phil,

    Phil,

    I’ve explained that. I don’t have time for you and the crew. Them which sleep, God will bring with them.

    Matthew 27:52King James Version (KJV)
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose

    We which are alive shall not prevent them which are asleep from doing what? Those who remained until the coming of the Lord were in the temple age.

    Daniel 12:11-12King James Version (KJV)
    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    Those which are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds. I get this. However, does it mean that you will be caught up in the clouds in your flesh? There are scriptures in the bible that we have to reconcile. If Paul says it is appointed to men once to die, then how can you assume there are exceptions? If Mark 9:1 says those standing there will not taste death until they have seen the kingdom, How can you assume those which are alive at that point will not taste death? At some point, you must take off the corruptible. End of the day, it comes down to what people desperately believe. People choose to believe best case scenario that supports their delusion. Paul is your guy. Do we all die or does Captain Kirk beam us up? How many of the progenitors of the Hebrew faith died before the story was hijacked by the RCC? How many religions have the RCC consolidated into their paganistic beast? You and your crew take what you want to believe and never try to understand anything that does not agree with your delusion.

    • Emery

      1 Corinthians 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
      This means flesh CANNOT enter heaven. No one will be “caught up” and go to heaven in the flesh. It’s impossible.

      • TWR

        Emery,

        One of those rare times we agree. However, you are stuck in the same delusion of living in the book. The end of the world was the end of the age. Jesus was ONLY sent to the Israelites of the first testament, and only died for them (Hebrews 9:15). The story of the Hebrews has been stolen and incorporated into false religion. That is why there is so much debate. People don’t understand it is their story. The kingdom of heaven was at hand for those Israelites. There are no remnants of 144,000. It is obvious to anyone who will apply logic over blind faith that Jesus was not communicating with us thru them.

        From Deuteronomy 18, when God promised the Israelites a prophet, all the prophesies were about his coming. All of the old testament prophecies were about Israel because gentiles did not have salvation. When Jesus came, he was only sent to Israel and his word, prophetic or not, was for the sole benefit of Israel of that age. Shed blood was the only way for forgiveness of sins UNDER THE LAW (Hebrews 9:27). Gentiles were never under the law. This is a stolen story that has been incorporated into a false religion by the way of doctrine. Anyone with 1/4 of brain function can recognize it once it is pointed out. People are so desperate for salvation and heaven instead of actually trying to live the Hebrew faith and live for God that he has abandoned you in a book.

        If people don’t open their eyes to the RCC deception, they will be lost. This consolidation of the Hebrew faith and religious practices of pagan nations is the beast. Now they are trying to incorporate LGBTQs and Islam to create a world religion. This is not the work of men. God would never allow pagan customs to be incorporated into the faith. We had to discover our own way because we are not in that book. The book of Revelation is intentionally misdated at 90 B.C. John or none of the Israelites called out would not have been alive at that time. The gospels, which were said to have been written around 100 B.C. was probably not written by Israelites. They were definitely not Mark and Matthew of the disciples.

        There are two basic elements in the bible. There is story and prophetic word. The only prophetic book of the N.T. is Revelation. Revelation is easily dated.

        Revelation 1:1King James Version (KJV)

        1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

        When you are dealing with communication such as the bible, there is a progression that must be followed. You progress from speaker to listener to reader in order to obtain proper context. Only in religion are people taught backward communication, then we are taught to skip over the reader and become the listener. There is no prophetic word in Matthew 24 that applies to any generation except those who were being taught.

        Matthew 24:33-35King James Version (KJV)

        33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

        34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

        35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

        Everyone on here believes they are some kind of expert on a story that happened long before they were born. Hopes and expectations are based on trickery and deception of a foolish nation. A fool in his heart says there is no God.

        Romans 10:19King James Version (KJV)

        19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

        A foolish nation with a foolish religion that no longer follows God’s commandments is doomed. A foolish nation has taught fear of God by the commandments of men. Go to church and pay your tithes and you will be the church. Obedience is better than sacrifice. Going to church and paying tithes are no better than a sin offering. It is sacred service and you are assembling yourself amongst the heathen and other lost souls.

        This is my prophetic word to you and the masses. Get out of the book, get on your knees and ask God what he expects from you. Live. Stop focusing on the end of the world and what God can do for you. We are here to please him and not vice versa. He taught us how to pray. Jesus said thy kingdom come, thy will be done and Christians are asking for prosperity and a get out of death free card. You all better wake up before it is too late. TWR is taken care of. Eddie R., Ron, Dan, Edwitness and the rest, you can best believe I will be fine. Will you?

    • Phil

      TWR,

      “Them which sleep, God will bring with them.

      ‘And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose’ “

      But that doesn’t work. It doesn’t say God will bring with them. It says “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. But the bigger problem is that Paul was clearly writing to the Thessalonians years after the crucifixion about something that would occur in the future. You’re saying that he’s describing something that happened right after the resurrection of Christ. That’s a terrible disconnect.

      ===

      “We which are alive shall not prevent them which are asleep from doing what?”

      Well, that’s easy. From rising first. It’s right there in plain view in verse 16.

      ===

      “Those who remained until the coming of the Lord were in the temple age.”

      What Temple age? Which temple? The Exodus tabernacle that wound up in Shiloh? The one Solomon had built? The one Ezra rebuilt that Herod improved? Or the one described in Ezekiel which nobody has ever seen?

      ===

      “Those which are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds. I get this. However, does it mean that you will be caught up in the clouds in your flesh?”

      I think so, but flesh changed from mortal to immortal in the twinkling of an eye. If it doesn’t mean this, then the “dead in Christ” who will rise first are well-rotted corpses. Job, who was not an Israelite, and lived long before Moses, said:

      “And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God”

      He even gave us a time frame:

      “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.”

      When would you suppose Job’s redeemer will stand again on this earth?

      ===

      “Paul says it is appointed to men once to die, then how can you assume there are exceptions?”

      I just showed you that there are exceptions to the ‘once’ in both Testaments. Why are you brushing those off?

      ===

      “Paul is your guy.”

      No, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and the Bible is my Book. I don’t want it to say what I think. I want to understand what God thinks. And I don’t like loose ends.

      ===

      “How many religions have the RCC consolidated into their paganistic beast? You and your crew…”

      That’s rude TWR. I’m neither Catholic or pagan, nor do I have a crew. I’m just asking polite questions.

      • TWR

        Phil,

        I don’t have time for you. What temple was Jesus talking about in Matthew 24: 2?

        Matthew 24:2King James Version (KJV)
        2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

        Job was not an Israelite but he kept the law when it was voluntary. That is where we are now. You haven’t showed me exceptions. Those who were under the law were who Jesus came to save. The end of the world was the end of the age. Maybe the first age slept.

        • Emery

          In Matthew 24:2 Jesus was speaking of himself being killed, and resurrected three days later. The temple reference was purely metaphorical.

          • TWR

            Emery,

            Pretty ridiculous assumption. Nowhere in Matthew 24 does he discuss or mention his death. The question that was posed was not about his death. They were asking for sings of the end of the world (age).

          • Emery

            Nope. He was metaphorically referring to his death and resurrection.

          • TWR

            Emery,

            I agree about Mark 9:1. Some of those standing there would make it until the end of the age, die and WERE immediately transformed. It was also prophesied in Daniel. Daniel was speaking of the temple desecration and destruction.

            Daniel 12:11-12King James Version (KJV)
            11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

            12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

            These are some of the same people referenced in Mark 9:1. Jesus was repeating the prophecy. This has already happened. We are not that earth age.

            Matthew 24:3King James Version (KJV)

            3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

            If the disciples were talking about the resurrection, everything that happened in Mark 24 or the book of revelation would have to have happened in three days. So, for you to say Matthew 24 was talking about his death and resurrection is ridiculous. Your doctrine is extremely fluid and open for too much interpretation based on nothing concrete.

        • Phil

          TWR,

          “I don’t have time…”

          I understand. But honestly, I think you owe it to yourself to do some serious thinking. Those 4 verses in the Thessalonians passage contain very special information about both the Rapture and the Second Coming. It’s a shame when verses like that becomes something you have to get rid of to make room for extra-biblical stuff.

          • Emery

            Phil;
            You’re being dishonest. There is NOT ONE WORD in the scriptures about a rapture. That is a figment of imagination of the minds of those who created man made religions, and those who participate in them. You know the ones, the ones that God said ARE ALL FALSE RELIGION. The ones claiming FALSELY TO BE CHRISTIAN. NO religion is Christian, except the one Jesus described when on Earth.

          • TWR

            Phil,

            I understand what you are saying, but, however you choose to translate it, it doesn’t speak to us today. Jesus said those standing there would see the kingdom of God come with power. Jesus told his disciples that their generation would not come to pass without seeing the fulfillment of all things. The end of the temple age was the end of the world, just as the flood once destroyed the world. If Jesus words did not come true, they did not come from God. This would invalidate his ministry and the entire new testament. It does me no good to over analyze something that is already done.

          • Emery

            twr;
            NO, NO, AND NO! The reason you’re so wrong, is that you REFUSE to see that he was talking TO, and ABOUT those of the 144,000. There was no talk about the end of any “age”, much less some “temple age”. That’s just rediculous twr. The NT is about, by, and to the 144,000. Refusing to accept that is just totally absurd, and is an INSULT to God and to God’s SON, Jesus.

          • Phil

            TWR,

            “Jesus told his disciples that their generation would not come to pass without seeing the fulfillment of all things.”

            No, He did not tell them “all things” at all. What He said was:

            “…there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power”

            and

            “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

            The coming of the kingdom could be the transfiguration. Or it could easily be the charter membership days of the Church at Pentecost when “the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved”, by the thousands.

            John saw and recorded the actual Second Coming of Christ in Revelation 19. The fact that he was seeing it before the fact does not negate that he saw it. His written account fully qualifies.

            Jesus also said this:

            “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

            He could easily be saying here that the generation that would endure the events He was describing would not pass. It does not necessarily mean “you”. It is like me looking back on War 2 soldiers and saying “This is the generation that will liberate Europe”. You are picking a preferred meaning for the word ‘generation’, and the one you’ve selected does not work in Matthew 23.

            But the really huge problem with preterist views in verses like these, is that the Revelation and all of the Olivet Discourse accounts are wasted words if everything was fulfilled in 70 AD. Scarcely any of the details realistically match the profane historical accounts of people like Tacitus and Josephus. If you can’t square up what was forecast with fulfillment, then God’s revelation is in vain.

            ===

            “The end of the temple age was the end of the world”

            I don’t know where you’re getting the temple age concept. There is still, according to Daniel 9, a final week of years still on the table. There will be another Temple. It, and other things about the millennial reign of Christ on this earth, are described in the last 8 chapters of Ezekiel. I don’t think these words were written in vain either.

      • TWR

        Phil,

        Jesus told his disciples privately in Matt 24:33-35 that their generation would by no means pass away without seeing all these things occur. It reinforces the fact he was talking about that generation when you consider Mark 9:1. If he was talking about transfiguration or Pentecost, then all those things in Matthew 24 would have had to have occurred before those days. That doesn’t add up. I don’t attempt to define generation.

        Psalm 90:10King James Version (KJV)
        10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

        I believe in the trinity. That is to say a convergence between scripture, history and science. I know there have been some horrific lies told in history. Who is to say these are the true unedited words of Josephus or Tacticus. There is no week left in Daniel 9. Daniel 10 and 11 can be found in any history book.

        Where I get the end of the age as the end of the world is simple. The definition of world in the Greek is an age. An astrological age is roughly 2,000 years. That is when the world was destroyed by flood the first time, and it would have occurred at the same time during the temple destruction. You begin to see patterns. God doesn’t change. People keep talking about a kingdom on earth. That is an assumption. Jesus told the Pharisees you will not be able to say lo there is the kingdom. He said it would come without notice.

        You make a lot of assumptions that could be avoided if you apply the concepts of communication.