The Hidden References To The Mark of The Beast Found In The Book Of James

No sir, the Holy Spirit speaking through James is not happy with rich people one little bit, as you can obviously see. He shows them no mercy, and uses them as an example of how not to live your life. Why would He do that? There are lots of people in the Bible God made wealthy. It was a Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man, who provided the brand new, unused tomb for Jesus after the crucifixion. So why be so hard on rich people here?
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James is speaking prophetically when he is describing the wealth they sold their souls for.

“Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.” James 5:1-3 (KJV)

In the Bible, there are 3 books that we understand to be “transitional books”, and they are Matthew, Acts and Hebrews. Matthew bridges the transition from the Old to New Testament, Acts transitions from the Kingdom age to Church Age, and Hebrews from the Church Age to the time of Jacob’s trouble otherwise known as the Great Tribulation. For the born again Christian in the Church Age, our doctrine is found in the Pauline epistles. But for the Tribulation saints, their doctrine will be found in Hebrews, James, Peter, Jude and Revelation. These books deal extensively with people, namely the Jews, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

The book of James has a lot to say about rich people, and it’s not good.

James, throughout his book, takes rich people to task and shows them no mercy as you can see here:

  • “Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.” James 1:9,10 (KJV)
  • “Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?” James 2:5,6 (KJV)
  • “Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.” James 4:13,14 (KJV)
  • “Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.” James 5:1-3 (KJV)

No sir, the Holy Spirit speaking through James is not happy with rich people one little bit, as you can obviously see. He shows them no mercy, and uses them as an example of how not to live your life. Why would He do that? There are lots of people in the Bible God made wealthy. It was a Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man, who provided the brand new, unused tomb for Jesus after the crucifixion. So why be so hard on rich people here?

A quick application of 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) reveals the prophetical weight of what James is really trying to draw our attention to.

The Mark of the Beast in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

“And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16,17 (KJV)

The Internet is filled with various thoughts and opinion on what the Mark of the Beast will be when the Antichrist arrives. But Bible believes don’t waste time on speculating of what it is, we already know what it is. It is a mark, inserted in the back of the right hand or in the forehead, that will control all buying and selling. Case closed. We live in a cyber world run by massive computers connected by the Internet, so it stands to reason it will be a digital chip of some kind. But whatever form it finally takes it will control all financial transactions. Every, single one of them.

Take a quick look in the mirror, has the little lightbulb of revelation suddenly popped up over your head? Do you see now why James, a book written primarily to Jews in the Tribulation (James 1:1), is soooooooo against rich people? Has it dawned on you yet?

“Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

Because in the time of Jacob’s trouble, Israel’s trouble, the only people who will be counted among the rich people will be the ones who agree to worship the Antichrist and receive his mark. Every person in that time who refuses the Mark will be poor. Guaranteed. Why? Because they will have no access to any bank accounts, credit or debit cards, or anything else that will allow them to make a financial transaction. Cash undoubtedly will have been done away with by that time.

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WAITING FOR THE MARK: DIGITAL IMPLANTS ARE BECOMING BIG BUSINESS AS BIOHACKER GROUPS GROW

James is speaking prophetically when he is describing the wealth they sold their souls for. He refers to their money, obtained by the Mark of the Beast, as wealth that is “cankered”, “corrupted”, and “moth eaten”. He further says that their money has now become a “witness against them”.  Wow, that’s really harsh language right? Wrong. It’s a factual description because in the time of Jacob’s trouble there is no eternal security, you are saved by faith + works and not by faith alone. It is the Church Age that has that promise (Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV), no other dispensation has it. And taking the Mark of the Beast – for any reason – is a sin that God will not forgive at all. Read it for yourselves:

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)

You take that Mark, you are eternally done. No forgiveness. James is not giving a few lines on “rich versus poor” and all that nonsense. James is warning the people who find themselves in the time of Jacob’s trouble that you will be a whole lot better off letting your babies starve to death than taking the Mark in order to have money to buy your family food.

Do you see it now?

This is also another one of our many Bible proofs for the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church. The Church cannot be in the Tribulation because we have eternal security. If a Christian took the Mark, what would happen? Answer, a Christian cannot take the Mark (though undoubtedly many weak, baby Christians would) because we are removed in the Rapture before the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble.

But scripture will never contradict itself. Christians will never be faced with taking the Mark because we are taken out before the time of Israel’s trial and trouble. People in that time will have to “endure to the end” to be saved. Endure poverty, hunger, watching their kids starve, homelessness and so much more. You can miss all that by getting saved now, and then you will have the Blessed Hope of the Pretrib Rapture!

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV)

 

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • Lee Rice

    What about all the people who planned for their retirement. Many are Christians. They were being smart and not spending their money on items that would affect their retirement. I am guilty of the second.. I had funds and bought two homes as investment homes. As you can suspect, the money went right through my fingers. Both homes lost tremendous value and sold for less than my mortgage. If I had followed God’s Council, I would have given more to the church and less to myself. We did that for years, and we were blessed over and over. Then I retired and was thinking with a different mindset,. SAVE SAVE Is this wrong? No, only how I used the money was wrong. I admit it. So now I should not buy silver? Should I just live on my social security and give all the silver and any extra funds away? This is very much a problem.

    • If you are saved you will not be in the Tribulation, you will be taken out in the Rapture of the Church. Christians are waiting for Jesus Christ not Antichrist, right?

      • wrong my friend, antichrist comes first !

        • Stephanie

          wrong, Jesus Christ rapture comesBEFORE man of sin revealed…

          • Stuart

            Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being GATHERED to him (THE RAPTURE), we ask you, brothers and sisters,not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the DAY OF THE LORD has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.…”2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
            If you believe the DAY OF THE LORD begins with the rapture of the church, then the AC shows up first.

      • Please can you explain this. Rev3v And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
        8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
        9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
        10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    • Phil

      Lee Rice,

      “So now I should not buy silver? Should I just live on my social security and give all the silver and any extra funds away? This is very much a problem.”

      There are all kinds of scriptural perspectives concerning wealth. We are encouraged to be prudent with what we are blessed with. God scans hearts and consciences looking for virtuous motivation, and raw asceticism is not a virtue.

      Jesus saying “Give, and it shall be given unto you” inherently means that you have to lay it down to pick it up. It also implies that we have to make the first move in proving ourselves reliable conduits. It is all about attitude.

      • Lee Rice

        WOW Phil….I totally understand that. I am free to help and give most of the time. Put it this way, I have a housekeeper who has no idea what cleaning is all about. Instead of firing her, I (know of her financial circumstances and where she lives, I also know that she is fortunate to even be walking. She had surgery on her ankles when she was younger. She comes and I give her easy jobs to do so she feels her worth. But, time are getting tight and my Insurances rates in many areas has increased (especially health)..The insurance companies are not going Our Social Security increased(only to have our suplimental Insurance to increase at the same rte. The times they are a changin. I may have to stop this situation. But, God will provide another, He always does.

        • Phil

          Lee, it sounds like you have a good heart, and a solid perspective about what we should put our faith in.

          Hang on to your silver. It is looking like a very good investment right now. There are those who think we are on the verge of major ugly financial events. Numerous central banks around the world are now involved in negative interest rates (which means they are charging depositors to hold their money). This last-ditch, reckless policy is going to result in all kinds of problems. There is no downside to being in possession of assets that have intrinsic value.

          That said, gold and silver have only limited value, and only in this life. Jesus is our treasure, and we are His.

          • Lee Rice

            I am a “SORTA” prepper” I have more than one item of stored food to feed others than myself. My plan is a 4 person family and I am only one. My medical kit will help others if they are injured. I have a few bibles in the pack. This food would be buried if it were an earthquake.But, I store in a Bright Color that I would be able to find in the rubble. If I were to die, others can find it.

  • Kenneth Russell

    Sir, I very much enjoy your articles. However you do a disservice to all by your mistaken (I am being kind, should call it False) doctrines of End Days. I do wish you would stick to what your gift clearly is — reporting the news that we need to hear — and leave preaching off to those who are qualified to teach. Forgive my frankness, and thank you very much for all the (rest) you do. Your Bible teaching is not completely wrong but how can I support teaching that is not 100% correct? Would you sit for a pastor who only gets his Sunday Sermon right about half of the time?

    • Sir, you CONTRADICT yourself. YOu say that you “very much enjoy our articles” and THEN SAY that we “teach false doctrines”. Hmm, perhaps you should allow yourself a little more “thinking time” before starting on the “writing time”. Make it a great day! 🙂

    • Marian

      You sound like a credentialist… gotta have that Piled Higher/ Deeper after someone’s name for qualifications. Mozart didn’t have a music degree. The Apostle Paul didn’t go to seminary. Just sayin’…

    • Jack Steffen

      Kenneth Russell: Why not identify the falsehood(s) you assert specifically so all can benefit instead of just a generic statement. Being specific may even assist the author in his walk with Christ.

      • Kenneth Russell

        Hello Jack. I have kept quiet but have read all the comments posted all day on this article. My job was just to point out there is a problem (not only with this article but with others, none of which I have commented on). There have been several very good posts today which have taken this to a point-by-point discussion, which I was not willing to do (am still not, I hate being attacked). I very much like Mr. Grider’s articles and read them all. He does a great service to cover the news that we can not get (truthfully) elsewhere. It is my sincere wish that he is not offended by my post and will know I am a supporter of his work. I just don’t think he is qualified to teach The Word as he keeps making serious mistakes. I was trained as a pastor and perhaps I am more aware, after some 50 years of study. Mr. Grider, again, Thank You for your work.

        • Phil

          Kenneth Russell,

          “which I was not willing to do (am still not, I hate being attacked).”

          Well, attacked is one thing. Challenged is another. There have been some very vigorous exchanges here, but I always like that as it forces me to think and study further. Sound doctrine can stand the furnace.

        • Marian

          Mr. Russell, I can perhaps respect your education and experience of 50 years, unlike the current crop of graduates from seminaries that mostly train pastors in the business model of selling Jesus ie hire a rock band, team up with Starbucks, don’t sing hymns or talk about sin, etc.

          I think your statement that Grider is unqualified and wrong half the time has us curious. Most here don’t want to attack you… we know you may have something valuable to share, even if we ultimately disagree with your doctrine (we understand that denominations have different doctrines).

          I would add, however, that John 16:13 tells us that the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. Some of the most Godly and Biblically knowledgeable people I’ve known have never set foot into an institution of higher learning. I have benefited from the scholarly pastors in my circles, as well.

          Bible prophecy is fascinating to ponder and discuss. It’s what got me into serious Bible study. But salvation is simple and easy to understand. The Lord will welcome us into Heaven regardless of our End Times knowledge, if we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior (and I have). I guess the doctrine of Eternal Security is another doctrine that inspires much discussion…

    • terri

      You do not say what you dislike. Is it the whole end times teaching? cause I gotta tell you started studying in 1976 and thinks that are happening now I was told about in 1976 never thought I would live to see it. Heard my first computer generated voice in 1980 at a JC penny store in a small town in Oregon. The church is going to be raptured and if you are against the whole rapture teaching confused as to why you would be on this site. I know I do not go to sites who believe in post trib, I just get all upset and probably have an argument with a post tribber that neither will win since we believe our way is right. Oh well, have a nice day anyway

      • DeniseC

        Terri and others, I’m just speculating, but I’m thinking Ken has a problem with the faith + works component Geoffrey mentioned that will be in the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. Geoffrey did an article not long ago about the dispensations and how salvation in our time (the Church Age) is based on faith alone, but during the Tribulation it will include works–one has to keep earning their salvation. There was lots of argument on that topic….

    • Skip Perry

      Picture Jesus sitting around a fire at night and having his disciples around him as he explains to them the following: I would like to use you guys in my ministry, but you don’t have any degrees!

  • Marian

    Another great exposition, Geoff!! People all over the world are being microchipped voluntarily. Israel just passed a bill to make it mandatory next year (if I remember correctly). We truly must be close to His glorious appearing.

    • As I have been saying for the past 7 years now, we are “watching an unsaved world preparing to enter the time of Jacob’s trouble”. It’s coming like a freight train. So GLAD we get out of here in the Rapture first!

      • EJBT

        I purchased Clarence Larkin’s “Rightly Dividing the Word.” What a wonderful explanation of “who” the scriptures are speaking to at different times in history! Now all I’ve learned from the Bible through the years makes perfect sense. 🙂 Thank you for suggesting Larkin’s writings.

        • Clarence Larkin is MUST READING for all BIble believers!

          • Thankyou Geoff for sharing this. If one types Clarence Larkin dispensational truth into google all his writings and charts come up under preservedwords.com I have just quickly glossed over it now and am absolutely amazed at what is here. There is so much to read and see about God’s Word and his plan for those who believe and have faith in Him. Thankyou Lord for Clarence Larkin. And for Geoffrey too! Amen

      • Todd

        Amen! Thank you for illuminating this portion of the Bible. I am so grateful to the Lord for my salvation in Jesus. I look forward to the Rapture where we who believe in Jesus’ competed work on the cross will soon meet Him in the air and leave this world. Please, all who believe, please include in your prayers my family and friends who are still lost. God will know who they are if you would just please ask God to save them. I pray daily but I could use the help. I pray daily for the lost in this world and in so doing know that I pray in God’s Will since He has said He wants all to come to Him for salvation through His son Jesus. Thank you for all who would pray on my behalf for my family/friends.
        Thank you Geoffry for this article. It really puts the time in which we live into perspective. We need to pray every day and remember the hope we believers have in Jesus and His soon return for His church. We live in dark times and certainly things will get worse. But we have hope in Jesus we need to look up – keep our focus on Jesus.

      • Leigh

        Amen my dear brother!
        God bless you for bringing us SOUND BIBLICAL DOCTRINE, I and many, many others appreciate the work the Lord is doing through you and NTEB!

  • Judy

    Great commentary-thank you!

  • joe

    1 corinthians 15: 53 & 54 talks about the timing of the rapture and it says that ” at the last trump”, what do you make of this? Does that means at the trumpet #7?

    • Marian

      I’m not sure we know which trumpet this is in the verse you cite. Attaching it to a trumpet judgment is ignoring all the other trumpets the mentioned in the Bible and in the Jewish feasts, as well as ignoring all the scripture that supports a pre-tribulation rapture.

      For example, Rosh Hashanah, the fall Jewish Feast of Trumpets with blasts from the shofar, is referred to as a possible timing for the Rapture. I’ve read some convincing expositions of this… sounds good, but correct? Not sure.

      Geoff, can you add anything?

      • First question, have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Master. Are you ready if he should call you home today. Then the rest is only theological pandering. I have done a video on this and I mention the possibility that The last trump” here could be the time of the rapture. The word”last” must have a significance showing that other trump would have blown, and there will be no more after it. We are not called to spend our time figuring out prophesy, we are told to watch prophesy being fullfilled .

        • DeniseC

          Excellent point, Chesterfield. I am fascinated by the end times, I have to admit. I love figuring out a good mystery. Must have read too many Nancy Drews as a kid!

          • Marian

            I read Nancy Drew as well, LOL!! Yep, that’s gotta be it… when Paul said “Behold, I shew you a mystery,” (I Cor 15:51) I was hooked 😉

    • Michael MD

      A companion passage is I Thessalonians 4:13-18 where the Bible says (verse 16), “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and the TRUMP of God: and the dead inChrist shall rise first.”

      There are 3 sounds here; a VOICE, a SHOUT, and a TRUMP. The TRUMP is the sound a trumpet makes. The angel’s trumpets in Revelation 8:6 and 11:15 is at the end of tribulation.

      No angel blows this trump in either I Corinthians 15 or I Thessalonians 4:16; it is THE TRUMP OF GOD! This is taking the Church OUT before The Time of Jacobs Trouble.

      This TRUMP is God Himself SPEAKING saying “Come Up Hither”! See Revelation 4:1 where John says “…the first voice which I heard was as it were TRUMPET TALKING with me; which said, come up hither…”

      This has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets over in Revelation. It’s GOD HIMSELF (see Zechariah 9:14 and Exodus 19:16-19.

      James is written “…to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad..”. And the writing of James pre dates AD 45 and is a pre-Pauline epistle written to the Jews in dispersion somewhere between Acts 2 and Acts 10. Since everything is ready for the Lord to come back between Acts 2 and Acts 7 (which ends with Stephen getting his brains rocked out) in Acts 7.

      The Bible is marvelously put together, eh what?

  • Michael Watt

    You are not by faith and works. You are saved by faith alone. There will be many on that day that will say look at my works (cast out demons in your name, etc) and hell say I never knew you. I am saved by faith alone. And I except the righteousness from Jesus. Romans 10:3-4

  • hrgreenjr

    While I certainly believe in the pre-trib rapture, this notion and false doctrine the Book of Hebrews and Book of James were written specifically for the “time of Jacobs trouble” is a LIE. Both of these canonical books were written to REAL JEWS during the later part of the 1st century. To classify them doctrinally for the tribulation comes from some man’s book or videos series that Geoffrey Grider and Jimmy Randolph has studied, and have discarded the Bible method of interpretation. Plus this false teaching has promoted “works Salvation” and “another Gospel” which Paul said is double mentioned as a curse Galatians 1:8-9. for the early church until Paul. Paul was given the same Gospel BY JESUS as Jesus gave to the reast of the Apostles in Luke 24:44-49. A simple reading of these fact IN SCRIPTURE–completely refutes hyper-dispensationalism taught on this website. Repent…

    • Patti

      Read my comment and any opinions would be appreciated.

  • Its true that in the last days there will be those that deny Jesus being the Son of GOD . So we must be careful of what we call a lie.

  • Brian Farrell

    Faith + Works? That is another gospel. You are treading in dangerous territory. Every person that has ever or will ever live can only be saved by faith, never works. Otherwise, why would Paul use Abraham as the supreme example of salvation by faith alone? Read Romans again- on your knees! Salvation is not based on works. It never has been and it never will be. But, as James said, true faith will be followed by the works God gives us to do. That work has varied, depending on the people and the time. As in every dispensation, no works = dead faith. This has been the same in every dispensation of humanity, including the time of the Law for Israel, the Church Age and including the Tribulation period to come. Adam was saved by faith alone. Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, John, Paul, etc.. See it? Faith plus works is Catholic, not Scriptural, and leads to hell, not Heaven. I could not believe my eyes when I read that. I will not be sharing this website anymore.

  • Wealth is never good, because it is a theif, subtlety stealing our hearts from eternal things. Jesus and Paul make it clear that both laymen and clergy are to flee from the love of money, and instead are to pursue righteousness, love and peace. Our best life ain’t here – and if it is, then we are in trouble. This is what the Bible says about wealth:
    http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2014/12/13/the-deceitfulness-of-wealth-your-best-life-later-part-1/

    https://followingjesuschrist3.com/2014/11/14/teachers-preachers-and-wealth/

  • CHAR

    Kenneth Russell, your comment appears that you are a very nice person, but also misinformed. Give us the scripture that Geoffrey is misleading us (as in a disservice that he’s giving us). I think this article is RIGHT ON! He knows the Word and uses it as the Holy Spirit guides him to write. Perhaps you don’t understand the word and just take it that Pastor Grider is incorrect, so give us your scriptures on the part in this article that are incorrect, please. God Bless.

  • Patti

    I’m not sure if I posted last comment correctly so I am submitting it again: I had to go to the hospital a few years back. The doctor showed me what he called a marker for the surgical procedure. It looked like a tiny glass vile with very tiny wires. I told him I didn’t want it. The doctor told me I had to have it. Is this tiny marker possibly what the article is talking about? If it is I want it removed. I have read the bible ever since I 1st started to read. I have a medical appointment tomorrow for my annual. (I want to change my emergency contact because I don’t think they will ever understand the scripture of this situation.) I’m not even sure what the medical people that will assist will believe. I want to know the best scriptural advice to refer and 1. how to best communicate medically on my appointment 2. pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth 3. pray for who the best person should be my new emergency contact.

    • The answer to your question is “NO” Please read the Bible it is not that difficult to understand. Do you believe what is written in Genesis, it is the same God who inspired Revelation. The marker which the doctor place in you ‘IS NOT THE MARK OF THE BEAST. i hope this remove your fears. God Bless keep trusting in Him.

    • Patti, that thing the doctor put in you or is planning to put in you, is NOT the mark of the beast! If you are a saved person, have accepted Jesus Christ by faith, you will not be here to see the mark of the beast. Do not worry! The mark is by the antichrist, and he is not going to be revealed till after the rapture.

    • Leonard

      Patti, I’m not the Bible scholar that Geoffrey and some of the others here are, but I do not believe your chip is the mark of the beast. I think that when the time comes to accept THAT mark, it will be a voluntary act on the recipient’s part, and the recipient will understand exactly what they’re doing. Most will likely be in denial, rationalizing it–to feed their kids, make their house or car payment, etc. Some may do it to “fit in”. But all will know except those who are deluded…

  • David

    It has always been my understanding that during the Church Age/Age of Grace, salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). Our salvation is secured by the sealing of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13). And during the 7 yr. Tribulation period, salvation will be by grace plus works. The Age of Grace is OVER. Not only that, one can lose their salvation if they do not endure to the end or they take the “mark” during the Tribulation. The Tribulation is a different dispensation. Those who do not embrace dispensational theology are confused and that is very unfortunate. They are NOT rightly dividing the Word of God. This has caused so much error within the Body of Christ. Geoffrey is correct.

    • Phil

      David,

      “…during the 7 yr. Tribulation period, salvation will be by grace plus works.”

      The problem I have with this idea is that there is no way to quantify how much plus works is enough. It’s similar to the claim that once you are born again, you can lose your salvation. There is no clear point of demarcation. It is very difficult to actually define.

      The other problem is interpretation. There are verses in Hebrews and James and Hebrews that are somewhat confusing, but not that confusing.

  • Ishaya Adamu

    The fact that clergy and laymen are to flee from the love of money is unfortunately lost on the church today. we need more of these serious reminders in this end time.

  • The last paragraph of your article continue to claim a pre-trib rapture. Scripture has been miss interpreted many time to prove this. Why? First misuderstanding the position of the Laodicea Church era. Revelation 3v14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
    15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. This church is already here and God is calling it to repentance.Notice the counsel God give to it in verse 18. Gold tried in fire, what is it. This is not speaking of the gold metal it is referring to spiritual character.. How is a christian’s faith tested. What could God use to test them more that the tribulation. Here is what James say about our “Faith”. James 1v2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (testings, trials,persecutions)
    3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
    4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing .The rejection of the mark of the beast will stand as a test of your faith in God to protect and deliver you. Look at the biblical examples of how God delivered those who put their faith in him.Y
    When God speak to a situation he is speaking to the majority. Protestantism is capitulating headlong into the lukewarm realm. The rejection of God’s Word as absolute and final is the way the church will continue to go..

    • Yes, we teach and preach a PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE as it is found in the Bible. And we are not Protestants, we are Bible believers.

  • just a quick question Geoffrey, are there going to be babies born and living in the tribulation? i did not think that women would be able to conceive during the great tribulation. thanks

    • Absolutely. Jesus Himself said there would be pregnant women and nursing women in the time of Jacob’s trouble – “And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!” Matthew 24:19 (KJV)

  • Jack Steffen

    I think everyone should visit Perry Stones site and get his take on the rapture and just “who” will be included. I found his comments very interesting and insightful.

    • Perry Stone believes in necromancy and talking with the dead. Listen to him at your own risk.

    • Leigh

      Perry Stone is a false teacher!

  • avidtrober

    Ironic this article comes out as the Koch Brothers are not supporting Trump, but focusing on the Senate instead.

    The SCOTUS in the balance and these “Conservatives” want the RINOs in charge of the Senate. And, are supporters of “Conservatives” like Paul Ryan who fully funded Planned Parenthood without the least bit fight after the egregious scandals revealed to this nation. THAT, folks, was a sign from above to let believers know where this nation really is. I think the USA has reached unrepentant turf where God steps in to deal with a nation. Hope I’m wrong, but it appears BOTH sides, Democrats and RINOs, are utterly useless in upholding what is holding back a surge of evil on the coming generations of Americans.

    Handing the SCOTUS over the HRC, and by no means will a GOP-controlled Senate WHO HAS MADE ZERO DIFFERENCE UNDER OBAMA is going to hold back that court being given over to out-right lawlessness. They are going to be bribed, and out-right threatened and simply cave in. Useless.

    The Koch Brothers have shown their true colors.

  • I wonder if the wolfen prosperity teachers read James???

    More End Time News At:
    http://www.shininginthedark.com/?page_id=11467

  • eddie

    I have been saved for over 32years. The KJV has been my foundation rock since the day I left the Roman whore. Clarence Larkin’s ‘Dispensational Truth’ is one of, if not THE, greatest book written in the last 120 years to teach how the Bible all fits together AND how we are to rightly divide it.
    The rapture WILL happen before ‘Jacob’s trouble’. Many Christians simply refuse to believe this because they listen to false teachers and will lose a crown because they don’t love Christ’s appearing. They are looking for the antichrist’s appearing instead.
    If you are truly saved you are going up before the tribulation starts …like it or not.
    Mr. Grider is absolutly right because he believes and says what the Bible actually teaches.

  • Eternal Security is conditional. This is what the Bible says. The Bible tells us to trust in Jesus and His Finished Work alone for Eternal Security during the Church Age. We are to have Faith in Jesus and His Finished Work alone. The Bible in no way supports the doctrine of Unconditional Eternal Security.

    • This is what the DICTIONARY has to say about your curious use of conflicting terms:

      ox·y·mo·ron
      ˌäksəˈmôrˌän/Submit
      noun
      a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ).

      Make it a great day! 🙂

    • Santos

      Wont you be suprised to find out one day that eternal salvation is just that eternal…. Something eternal last forever. Something conditional exists upon the determination of something else, such as in this case your unstated premise that we must work to retain salvation. Yes, faith in Jesus alone. But the free gift of salvation in Jesus is not conditional. Once received He will not take it back. Once saved always saved. A free gift is just that free. You don’t work to earn it and you cannot work to keep it. You receive it.

      • Santos

        Sorry – my comment was to Steven Robbins who stated the oxymoron. It looked as though I responded to you Geoffrey and that’s not the case!

        Thank you Jesus for my Unconditional Eternal Security! Thank you for paying my penalty with your blood, accepting my punishment in my place.

        Steven Robbins you’re going to be so very surprised to one day soon come face to face with the reality that the gift of salvation comes free without any work or effort to keep it. I will pray that God will grant you wisdom to understand His Word.

  • Pete

    “James, a book written primarily to Jews in the Tribulation (James 1:1)”

    No, James was a book written primarily to Jews in the 1st century. Or, do you think those people to whom James wrote, had absolutely no clue what they were reading? Or that when they received his letter, they just placed it on a shelf?

    Amazing to me how you people read the Bible. Not even logically! And yet you claim that you alone “rightly divide” and everybody else is wrong.

  • eddie

    Pete, rightly dividing the Bible is everyone’s work and responsibility, and it does take work. The Bible fits together perfectly when it is rightly divided.
    James was written in the first century to Jewish believers not gentile believers as you already know. So we don’t get church age doctrine from this book. Paul’s letters were for our dispensation. The apostle’s were to the Jews dispensation which will start up again after the rapture. But could not God address Jewish believers during the tribulation with prophecy and encouragement written in the first century? The Bible will not be added to. It is complete. We can certainly learn spiritual truth for godly living from James but it clearly is not addressing gentile believers doctrinally. Eternal security is for today only, not during the tribulation. We are the bride of Christ,they are not. This is why eternal security is so hated today by churches. They don’t rightly divide the dispensations clearly given in God’s word. It has nothing to do with pride of the believer who studies. We are commanded to study AND rightly divide it . 2Tim:2;15.
    -Blessings.

    • Pete

      eddie, either I don’t understand what you are saying, or you really don’t understand scripture, but this makes no sense:

      //James was written in the first century to Jewish believers not gentile believers as you already know. So we don’t get church age doctrine from this book. //

      The “church” was – and IS – made up of both Jews and Gentiles. Yes, James was written TO 1st century Jewish Christians. In fact most of the Bible was written TO Jews, ABOUT Jews. But they were the church.

      Explain what you mean please.

  • eddie

    The letter is written to ‘The twelve tribes scattered abroad’ not to ‘churches’ as Paul’s were. While many Jews became Christains the church became primarily made up of gentiles. The book of Acts starts with Peter and Jews and it ends with Paul and gentiles.
    Paul is the apostle to the NT churches. James is writing only to the twelve tribes. The whole book is Jewish in nature. Why does he contradict Paul by ignoring gentiles when Paul taught that Jews and gentiles are equal in Christ? And he contradicts Paul’s teaching in ch2:24 saying by works you are justified and not by faith only? (unless you’re addressing people in the tribulation that can lose their salvation ) Why would you build doctrine from a book that seems to contradict other scriptures? All scripture is beneficial to me but all scripture is not intended for me. It must be rightly divide to be rightly understood. It only seems to contradict other scriptures if it is not meant for this dispensation, doctrinally speaking.
    It was written doctrinally for the Jews during the TRIBULATION.
    Hope this helps.

  • eddie wrote /Clarence Larkin’s ‘Dispensational Truth’ is one of, if not THE, greatest book written in the last 120 years to teach how the Bible all fits together AND how we are to rightly divide it./

    eddie, this is from Clarence Larkin’s book…Dispensational Truth

    “The “Preterist School” originated with the Jesuit Alcazar. His view was first put forth as a complete scheme in his work on the Apocalypse, published in A.D.1614. It limits the scope of the apocalypse to the events of the Apostle John’s life, and affirms that the whole prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the subsequent fall of the persecuting Roman Empire, thus making the Emperor Nero the “Antichrist.” The purpose of the scheme was transparent, it was to relieve the Papal Church from the stigma of being called the “Harlot Church” and the Pope from being called the Antichrist…”

    The “Historical School”. . . interprets the Apocalypse as a series of prophecies predicting the events that were to happen in the world and in the Church from John’s day to the end of time. The advocates of the School interpret the symbols of the Book of Revelation as referring to certain historical events that have and are happening in the world. They claim that “Antichrist” is a “System” rather than a “Person,” and is represented by the Harlot Church of Rome. They interpret the “Time Element” in the Book on the “Year Day Scale.” This school has had some very able and ingenious advocates. This view, like the preceding was unknown to the early church. It appeared about the middle of the Twelfth Century, and was systematized in the beginning of the Third Century by the Abbot Joachim. Subsequently it was adopted and applied to the Pope by the forerunners and leaders of the Reformation, and may be said to have reached its zenith in Mr. Elliott’s “Horae Apocalypticae.” It is frequently called the Protestant interpretation because it regards Popery as exhausting all that has been predicted of the Antichristian power. It was a powerful and formidable weapon in the hands of the leaders of the Reformation, and the conviction of its truthfulness nerved them to “love not their lives unto the death.” It was the secret of the martyr heroism of the Sixteenth Century.

    The “Futurist School” interprets the language of the Apocalypse “literally,” except such symbols as are named as such and hold that the whole of the Book, from the end of the third chapter, is yet “future” and unfulfilled, and that the greater part of the Book, from the beginning of chapter six to the end of chapter nineteen, describes what shall come to pass during the last week of “Daniel’s Seventy Weeks.” . . . In its present form it may be said to have originated at the end of the Sixteenth Century, with the Jesuit Ribera, who actuated by the same motive as the Jesuit Alcazar, sought to rid the Papacy of the stigma of being called the “Antichrist,” and so referred the prophecies of the Apocalypse to the distant future. This view was accepted by the Roman Catholic Church and was for a long time confined to it, but, strange to say, it has wonderfully revived since the beginning of the Nineteenth Century, and among Protestants. . . ., The “Futurist” interpretation of scripture is the one employed in this book.”

    Clarence Larkin

    One should take particular notice of his last sentence. Larkin’s notions are taken from a commentary (In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij) written by a Roman Catholic Jesuit Rabbi from the 1500s. Another way to say it, Larkin’s notions are not biblically based, but instead based on a political attempt by the RCC to refute the reformers claims that the pope was the AC. It is a doctrine of man.

  • eddie wrote: /The KJV has been my foundation rock since the day I left the Roman whore. Clarence Larkin’s ‘Dispensational Truth’ is one of, if not THE, greatest book written in the last 120 years to teach how the Bible all fits together AND how we are to rightly divide it./

    eddie, this is from Clarence Larkin’s book, Dispensational Truth…

    “The “Preterist School” originated with the Jesuit Alcazar. His view was first put forth as a complete scheme in his work on the Apocalypse, published in A.D.1614. It limits the scope of the apocalypse to the events of the Apostle John’s life, and affirms that the whole prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the subsequent fall of the persecuting Roman Empire, thus making the Emperor Nero the “Antichrist.” The purpose of the scheme was transparent, it was to relieve the Papal Church from the stigma of being called the “Harlot Church” and the Pope from being called the Antichrist…”

    The “Historical School”…interprets the Apocalypse as a series of prophecies predicting the events that were to happen in the world and in the Church from John’s day to the end of time. The advocates of the School interpret the symbols of the Book of Revelation as referring to certain historical events that have and are happening in the world. They claim that “Antichrist” is a “System” rather than a “Person,” and is represented by the Harlot Church of Rome. They interpret the “Time Element” in the Book on the “Year Day Scale.” This school has had some very able and ingenious advocates. This view, like the preceding was unknown to the early church. It appeared about the middle of the Twelfth Century, and was systematized in the beginning of the Third Century by the Abbot Joachim. Subsequently it was adopted and applied to the Pope by the forerunners and leaders of the Reformation, and may be said to have reached its zenith in Mr. Elliott’s “Horae Apocalypticae.” It is frequently called the Protestant interpretation because it regards Popery as exhausting all that has been predicted of the Antichristian power. It was a powerful and formidable weapon in the hands of the leaders of the Reformation, and the conviction of its truthfulness nerved them to “love not their lives unto the death.” It was the secret of the martyr heroism of the Sixteenth Century.

    The “Futurist School” interprets the language of the Apocalypse “literally,” except such symbols as are named as such and hold that the whole of the Book, from the end of the third chapter, is yet “future” and unfulfilled, and that the greater part of the Book, from the beginning of chapter six to the end of chapter nineteen, describes what shall come to pass during the last week of “Daniel’s Seventy Weeks.” …In its present form it may be said to have originated at the end of the Sixteenth Century, with the Jesuit Ribera, who actuated by the same motive as the Jesuit Alcazar, sought to rid the Papacy of the stigma of being called the “Antichrist,” and so referred the prophecies of the Apocalypse to the distant future. This view was accepted by the Roman Catholic Church and was for a long time confined to it, but, strange to say, it has wonderfully revived since the beginning of the Nineteenth Century, and among Protestants…, The “Futurist” interpretation of scripture is the one employed in this book.” ~Clarence Larkin

    It is important to take notice of his last sentence…This view was accepted by the Roman Catholic Church and was for a long time confined to it, but, strange to say, it has wonderfully revived since the beginning of the Nineteenth Century, and among Protestants…, The “Futurist” interpretation of scripture is the one employed in this book.

    Your statement said you had abandoned the “Roman whore,” which I would guess means the Roman Catholic Church. As it turns out, the very foundation of your dispensational eschatology originates from the RCC. It comes from an amalgamation of these Jesuit Priests writing commentaries to deflect the moniker of AC off the pope by the reformers. It is a political ploy, a doctrine of men.

    Mr. Grider is probably “absolutely right” regarding the teaching of dispensational theology. However, there are other theologies which share similar beliefs about “Israel” without the various “rapture” scenarios, like covenant theology. And there is new covenant theology which differs greatly and doesn’t divide the bible, but finds a common line of grace and faith throughout the bible. Dispensational theology is fairly new, as it was dismissed by all the church fathers and only came into acceptance within the last 200 years through Darby and the Scofield study bible. Scofield made many “versions” of his study bible as he was confronted with the errors in his commentaries. It’s really no more valid than a JW bible.

    • eddie

      The Roman Catholic Church is a false church with a false salvation preaching a false Jesus Christ.
      They teach the deity of Christ. Am I supposed to not believe that truth because they teach it?
      The teach the trinity of the God head. Am I supposed to not believe that truth because they teach that?
      I believe in the Futurist View of interpretation of prophecy because that is the biblical view. Many prophecies have more than one fulfillment. Noah’s flood, the destruction of Jerusalem and so forth.
      There is no doubt the R.C.C. is the great whore of Revelation. One needs only to take note of current events of the pope to see the fulfillment being played out. I believe that he will yet bring Islam and their brand of christianity together.

      Your statement ‘ Dispensational theology is fairly new, as it was dismissed by all the church fathers and only came into acceptance within the last 200 years through Darby and the Scofield study bible’. Is pointless. Who are ‘all the church fathers’ ?
      The angel that told Daniel of the prophecies affecting the Jews in the last days were meaningless to Daniel. He was told they would be sealed until the latter years but they are understandable to us today as we see them about to be fulfilled. The ‘ church fathers’ also did not believe Israel would be gathered again back to their homeland again……So much for their opinions.

      You also conveniently forgot to quote Larkin’s statement ” It (futurist view) has been charged with ignoring the Papal and Mohammedan systems, but this is far from the truth, for it looks upon them as foreshadowed in the scriptures,and sees in them the “Type” of those great “Anti-Types” yet future, the “Beast” and the “False Prophet.” The “Futurist” interpretation of scripture is the one employed in this book.”
      You also failed to mention that Larkin also stated of the three schools of interpretation it is the “most ancient” and that it “sunk into oblivion with the growth of the Papacy.”
      To say that there was some type of political ploy by Larkin is nonsense. To try to link the creation of dispensational Bible interpretation to the Satanic Jesuits is too funny.

      The charts in Larkin’s book will help any truth searcher understand how wonderfully God has woven together His truth in a book He has preserved for us. That was my point.
      You should try reading it sometime.

  • Ben

    http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp358.htm

    Please read this Geoffrey. As for the bible clearly teaches a pre-trib rapture. Please explain 2 Thessalonians 2

  • Ben
  • Ben

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KyV1jGL_-WY

    Pre trib in the bible? Watch the attached.

  • Holy Spirit Inspired

    Wrong. You are saved by faith alone. The thief on the cross had no works. Works will follow as a RESULT of being saved.Yes I realize faith without works is dead. You criticize the Cathoic Church(rightly so) but then profess the same doctrine. Please also stop with the pre trib rapture nonsense. Your setting up believers for failure when they will still be here during the tribulation. Many of us will have to lose our lives. Its the WRATH of God that Christians will not have to endure. I’m sorry but you seem like controlled opposition and a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    • You are saved by “faith alone” in the Church Age under the doctrine given to Paul from Jesus Christ, but that is for our dispensation only. In the time of Jacob’s trouble, it will be faith + works. That’s why Jesus said this about the people living in that time:

      “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13 (KJV)

      Born again Christians don’t have to “endure to the end”, we are eternally secure (Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV).

      • Ben

        Geoffrey, did not Paul state ” i have kept the faith, I have finished the race”. Was Paul then not saved as he was mixing works with his faith?

        • Ummmm, Paul said that he had finished “his course”, meaning the work God had given to him personally. We all have a course, and we will all have that course reviewed at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

          “But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.” Acts 20:24 (KJV)

          • Ben

            Geoffrey, he clearly states “I kept the faith”.

      • DeniseC

        No matter how much you, GG, and other PTR believers provide scripture and common-sense argument that Jesus comes first FOR the Church and then later WITH the Church, there will always be those who think He’s going to beat up the Bride He loves before the marriage supper. Arg! Reminds me of an 8 x 10 poster a friend had in her office with a big circle on it saying: Bang Head Here!

        • Yes, but the REASON why is NOT because Jesus doesn’t want to “beat His Bride”. The Bride has already been bloodied plenty. All the apostle except John were killed, and for 2,000 years we have had persecution of christians. The reason why we won’t be here is because it is JACOB’S trouble – and not the Church’s trouble. It has nothing to do with us.

          “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 3-:7 (KJV)

          • DeniseC

            True. Very good and important distinction.

          • Pete

            Geoffrey, if there are 3 people groups in God’s view – the church, Israel, and Gentiles….and the 7 years of hell on earth is for Israel only….then it isn’t for Gentiles either. So by your logic, Gentiles should not have to worry. Obviously they won’t be going to heaven, but God isn’t going to be pouring out His wrath on Gentiles. Right?

          • DeniseC

            Pete, even though your question was to GG, here’s my .01 (inflation, you know): God’s going to pour out His wrath on the whole earth, so Gentiles will be included. Some will see the mistake they made in not accepting Jesus when they had the chance. In the end, every knee shall bow…

            Btw, it would be nice if just once you would phrase your questions sincerely, like one who REALLY wants to learn. It seems you’re in a snarky mood again, baiting with “gotcha” type questions. Fine to challenge a doctrine, but comes off as malicious, at least to me. WHY?

          • Amen Geoffrey,
            Jacob’s trouble, Jacob’s trouble, Jacob’s trouble………Why is that so hard for them to understand? Jacob IS literal Israel.
            Blessings:-}

          • Phil

            Edwitness,

            “Jacob IS literal Israel.”

            And Judah.

          • Pete

            Edwitness, is the “trouble” for Israel the wrath of God being poured out in Revelation?

        • Pete

          You make a fair comment about my snarkiness DC, but I have found that it doesn’t matter how I say it. People get ticked unless I don’t agree, and they hate being challenged. So I could have said this: Geoffrey, with all due respect, you believe there are 3 different groups God deals with (a basic tenet of modern dispensationalism). You also insist that the coming 7 years of hell is The Time of Jacob’s Trouble, and only for Israel. Thus, just as it is not the Time of the Church’s Trouble, it is also not The Time of the Gentiles Trouble. It is an exclusive statement. One Group only. Therefore, Gentiles will not experience the wrath of God either.

          As if that’s going to enhance my public image around here any better. Please correct me if you can.

          And to address what you wrote…”God’s going to pour out His wrath on the whole earth…” But if this entire Time is only for Jacob, whatever that “trouble” is, won’t touch the Gentiles. Would you agree?

          And if you agree, please explain to me what the “trouble” is that Jacob will endure, if it isn’t God’s wrath?

          Thank you.

          • DeniseC

            On the contrary. Our moms were right: it’s not what you say but how you say it (and I’ve learned that a few times here myself, so not just picking on you.) Geoffrey didn’t include the Gentiles in his answer above—it was the Church and the Jews he was commenting to me about–so saying, “By your logic….” was putting words in his mouth/parsing. An honest, respectful question asking if/how the Gentiles will be affected in the Tribulation would be met with honesty and respect. It’s an interesting question that many people might have.

            I am no expert, so I did a search on your question and GG’s article was the 2nd one listed!
            http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/rapture/the-great-tribulation.htm

            The first one listed said there were at least 5 reasons in the OT for the Tribulation.
            http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/introduction/jacobs-trouble-and-the-great-tribulation.html

            On both articles I used the “find” option and wrote in “Gentiles.”

            This article is also good:
            http://www.the-gospel-truth.info/when-is-the-time-of-jacobs-trouble/

            Though the Time of Jacob’s Trouble is meant for the Jews, the Gentiles won’t be innocent bystanders by any means. They will be the ones left behind who are Israel’s enemies. Ezekial 38 will be dealing with those who plot against Israel. Many Jews will finally see that God won the war for them, and they will turn back to Him. Then God’s wrath will wipe out most of the population through that 7 years and His judgment will rain on everyone. His main purpose is to bring His people back to Him through this, but Gentiles will be in the mix; there’s no avoiding it, since, like the Jews, they didn’t accept Jesus and will still be here. It’s a reversal of when Jesus came the first time: the Jews rejected Him, and in that case the Gentiles benefited from it when He welcomed them into the Church.(It’s kind of like being His 2nd choice, but I’ll take it!) Geoff’s article talks about it in more detail. Also the Two Witnesses will be preaching live, so many can get saved that way, but many will die because of it, becoming the Tribulation Saints.

            It’s hard not to go off on tangents and give you a succinct answer, but I hope that helps. It’s already taken me 45 minutes, so don’t think I know it all. I have to look things up all the time. I’m sure GG will get back to you when he has a chance and can give a much better answer than I.
            D

        • Pete

          By the way DeniseC, please explain why you think Jesus is going to beat up Israel, His wife.

          And not only that, but it’s an exclusive 7 year time period, set aside by God JUST FOR THAT PURPOSE, to beat the living snot out of them. And kill 2/3 of them. And then finally force them out of Jerusalem, which is supposedly His Holy City (that He calls “Sodom” in Revelation) into the rocks of the mountains. Only then does He supposedly come back to rescue them (I guess He can’t just do that while they are still in Jerusalem?), and only when they SEE HIM physically do they finally believe.

          Oh and by the way, this 1/3 of Israel is only 1/3 of a (“lucky?”) generation of Israel that happened to be born at just the right time. The other 1900 years of Israel’s existence since the cross….I guess they are just lost, oh well.

          • eddie

            Pete, since when is Israel “Jesus’wife”?
            My friend, you have no clue of what you’re talking about.

          • Pete

            eddie, yes you are technically correct, I am technically wrong, Israel is not the wife of Jesus. But the Bible speaks of Israel being the wife of God. Jesus is God. So the wrath of God is going to fall on Israel, His wife….according to this end-times theory. Pre-tribbers are aghast in thinking that God would pour out His wrath on the bride of Christ. But they have no problem at all with believing wholeheartedly that a certain generation of Jews, born 1900 years after the generation who literally were involved in the crucifixion of Christ, are going to experience the wrath of God.

        • Ben

          There is not one scripture that says Jesus will rapture the church before the great tribulation, it has to be forced into the text.

          But there are direct passages saying we will be here when the antichrist makes himself God

        • Pete

          DeniseC,

          //“By your logic….” was putting words in his mouth/parsing. //

          I respectfully disagree, dear sister. I am merely following the logic of an exclusive title given to this “time.” The title “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” by definition excludes all other people. Especially since Geoffrey attempts to use this Title as proof that the church has nothing to do with this “Time.” And since they are attempting, without explicit Biblical evidence, to apply this “Time” to a future 7 year period, the same as Daniel’s 70th week, instead of what the original context demands: the time of the Babylonian captivity. If they are going to insist that it’s JACOB’S trouble, since that is the Title of it, then it’s JACOB’S trouble and nobody else’s.

          Anyway, if Daniel’s 70th week is the same Time, then pray tell someone explain to me why Daniel says this about the 70 weeks: “Seventy weeks are determined upon ***thy people and upon thy holy city***… who are these people? Jews. What city? Jerusalem. Daniel did not describe anyone or anyplace else – Gentiles, church, Rome, Paris, Tel Aviv, New York or Akron, Ohio.

          My argument is that the Time of Jacob;s Trouble is the Babylonian captivity, it is a past event, it has nothing to do with our future and nothing to do with Daniel’s 70th week. Geoffrey’s own argument and insistence that this is ONLY FOR JEWS actually upholds my argument.

          • Phil

            Pete,

            “If they are going to insist that it’s JACOB’S trouble, since that is the Title of it, then it’s JACOB’S trouble and nobody else’s.”

            The problem is that it is Jacob’s trouble. If the Babylonian captivity was in view, it would be Judah’s trouble. Verse 3 says:

            “…I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah”.

            Israel (the northern kingdom) and Judah (the southern kingdom) were never reunited. We can make the same argument using Ezekiel 37:16-19.

    • Leigh

      “Controlled opposition and a wolf in sheep’s clothing”…those are mighty harsh statements without a shred of evidence to say that to Geoffrey.

      The Church, Our Lord and Saviour’s bride, will not be going through the time of JACOBS TROUBLE! You are free to your opinion, but do not brand Geoff as a wolf because he teaches a pre trib rapture, for which I may add, there are hundreds of scripture proving this. Do some research and reading of God’s Word!

  • DeniseC

    Yeah, “oh, well.” It’s not like they didn’t have thousands of years of warning. EVERYONE that rejects God and His Son will be separated from Him forever and it will be THEIR CHOICE, whether they died without Him THEN or NOW. He gave them His Word and they rejected it; maybe His judgments will wake them up. When He destroys Israel’s enemies, many will come to believe, so in saying “only when they see Him” is a little off.

    I can clearly hear your cynicism, but He’s God and doesn’t need to explain His reasons to us. He doesn’t want any to perish, but in the end it’s up to them. He is a jealous God and He chose these people for Himself only to be rejected by them. He’s not going to force anyone to come live with Him who don’t want to be there.
    You almost sound like an unbeliever. It is what it is, my friend. If he’s in YOUR heart, you have nothing to fear. We can pray for the Jews and others/Gentiles, but it will always be the individual’s choice to accept or deny Him.

    • Pete

      //He’s God and doesn’t need to explain His reasons to us//

      True, of course, but here’s the thing: GOD DIDN’T SAY THAT’S WHAT HE IS DOING. There is not a shred of biblical evidence that God intends to bring all of the Jews together into a big group and then beat them up for 7 years, allowing 2/3 of them to die, and then reveal Himself to the last 1/3 and they will be saved. This is an invention of MEN. People have taken prophecies from the Old Testament that have already happened long ago, and thrust them into the far future and applied all kinds of Western ideas on top of them.

      So yeah. If the Bible explicitly laid all of that out, I would agree totally. God said it, that settles it.

      But He didn’t say it. I am merely pointing out the logical – if not the Biblical – evidence that this view is wrong.

      People like you like to say “Jesus would never beat up on His bride!” And then you turn around and claim that He will beat up on His wife, Israel. Meanwhile you harp on and on about how Israel is God’s chosen people and He miraculously protects them??? You guys don’t even make logical sense. Sorry if that’s rude. But where is the logic in this system and view you hold?

      Jesus came once to die for Israel, then the Gentiles. Some of Israel accepted Him. Some did not. Those who did not, perished. Those who did…guess what? They took the Gospel to the far corners of the earth. They are the reason you and I are saved. You want to just swipe all of Israel aside with “He gave them His Word and they rejected it; maybe His judgments will wake them up.” You obviously don’t really understand the New Testament and book of Acts. The Israel Paul spoke about is LONG GONE. They died 1900 years ago. The gospel and Jesus Christ are the whole point. Not Jews.

      You guys just don’t get it.

      • Phil

        Pete,

        Romans 11:

        25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

        26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

        27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

        28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.

        29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

        30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

        31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

        32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

        Verse 28 is the key. God made a covenant with Abraham that He will keep. His attention and dealings with Israel will resume when the fulness of the Gentiles is completed. When it is, it will be time “to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

        • Pete

          Phil, I don’t see any hint of a “time of Jacob’s Trouble” in Romans 11, that God uses to refine Israel. How does that fit in here?

          • Phil

            Pete,

            “I don’t see any hint of a “time of Jacob’s Trouble” in Romans 11, that God uses to refine Israel. How does that fit in here?”

            Well, that’s because Paul wasn’t writing about that in Romans 11. The phrase “Jacob’s trouble” only occurs one time in the Bible as far as I know. It is in Jeremiah 30:7

            “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.”

            You have to read the verses leading up to that to get the context. What do you think Jacob’s trouble means?

            ==

            The refining of Israel is mentioned in Zechariah 13:8-9

            “8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

            9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.”

            When did this happen?

        • Pete

          Hi Phil, the discussion is about this “time of Jacob’s trouble” and whether that is for Israel to be refined. My question was since it’s a time for Israel, why do people always say that the world / Gentiles are going to go through God’s wrath? It isn’t the time of the Gentiles’ trouble. Why did you post Romans 11 since it has nothing to do with this discussion? I’m just trying to understand.

          Yes, the Time of Jacob’s Trouble is only mentioned once in the Bible, in Jeremiah 30:7 as you say. And the context is clearly the Babylonian Captivity. Jeremiah was a prophet to Israel during that time, and he is told to go and speak to them, about their disobedience to God. He even uses present tense language when he speaks about this “time” in chapter 30. “Alas, for that day IS great.” “Wherefore DO I see every man with his hands on his loins” etc. And then he switches to future tense: “but he SHALL BE saved out of it.” That is, Jeremiah (speaking during the Captivity) foresaw that God would bring Israel back from this captivity at the end of the 70 years, as promised by God.

          Daniel, in the famous chapter 9, is also given a similar word from the Lord via Gabriel, when he is reading these words by Jeremiah, and is “told … that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.” Therefore the captivity would end when the 70 years was done. Here we have Daniel, speaking about this time, and he never once says it’s a future thing. He never once says that it will occur during the 70th week of his “weeks” prophecy. Do you have an explanation for that?

          So obviously the “time of Jacob’s Trouble” is long past. Zechariah, too, is speaking to his contemporaries. If you read Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther, which all took place after the captivity, you will see it’s fulfillment.

          I still cannot fully explain all of it. But there’s no evidence that the Time of Jacob’s Trouble has a thing to do with our future.

        • Phil, you wrote…/Verse 28 is the key. God made a covenant with Abraham that He will keep. His attention and dealings with Israel will resume when the fulness of the Gentiles is completed. When it is, it will be time “to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”/

          God made an agreement with Abraham in Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
          Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
          Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
          Gen 13:17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

          The promise was made to Abraham, not to a nation. And the seed speaks of Christ, and those who are drawn by God to believe in Him. Israel, the nation, was a typology, a picture, of those drawn to be believers in the Doctrine of God. God’s promises were made to men in the spirit – regenerated men. There are 2 kinds of Israelites, carnal (born after the flesh) and spiritual (born by promise, the children of the promise).

          Zion, or Sion, is God’s love and mercy upon the regenerated elect, not affection for a hill in Palestine. “They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth forever. As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the Lord is round about His people from henceforth, even forever.” (Ps. 125:l) “O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the highest mountain; O Jerusalem that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, but not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, ‘Behold your God!“’ (Isa. 40:6) Isaiah is referring to the church to bring good tidings up into the highest mountain, and the church to bring good tidings to lift up its voice and be not afraid. He is not talking to the mountain or to the city of Jerusalem. Israel, Sion, Jerusalem is the congregation of believers, whom God has chosen to know His doctrine through faith in Christ Jesus.

          Regarding the last part of the sentence from Dan 9:24…Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

          All six of these things were accomplished at Calvary. All six…not a few of them, or some of them. The word “and” is in between each in the list, meaning it was all accomplished, or none was accomplished. Daniel’s 70th week ended 3.5 years after the crucifixion of Christ on the cross (Dan 9:27…and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease), when Stephen was martyred. This text has nothing to do with anything future or a future AC. Are we really awaiting an AC to anoint the most holy? Does that even begin to make sense? If so, if we are awaiting this future AC to anoint the most holy, then we would have to admit that Jesus wasn’t the Messiah, wouldn’t we?

          • Phil

            tiptopsaidhe,

            “The promise was made to Abraham, not to a nation.”

            No, the original terms of the covenant are stated in Genesis 12:1-3:

            1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
            2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
            3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

            Verse 2 specifically states that “I will make of thee a great nation”. It is speaking of a Abraham’s descendants.

            ===

            “And the seed speaks of Christ, and those who are drawn by God to believe in Him.”

            No, the seed is literal, blood descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which includes Christ, but excludes you. The passage you chose to use is telling about Abram being shown the literal real estate mentioned in verse 1. Gentiles are definitely in view in the covenant as eventual recipients of the blessing mentioned in verse 3. But Romans 11:28 makes it very clear that Israel is in contempt of the Gospel, but still covered under the terms of the Abrahamic covenant “for the father’s sakes”.

            Gentiles are not heirs to the promised land.

            Genesis 12:7 says:

            “Unto thy seed will I give this land”.

            Genesis 17:8 says:

            “And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

            (The word for ‘everlasting’ is `owlam. It means ‘everlasting’.)

            A short description of the boundaries of the promised land is in Genesis 15:18

            “In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates”

            The long description can be found in Numbers 34:1-12.

            Israel has never realized full possession of the promised land. That will happen during the millennium when Christ assumes His role as King, and the disciples will judge the twelve tribes.

            Matthew 19:28 “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

          • Yes, the nation that comes from Abraham is believers, those called in faith, the chosen of God, the “church.” (Including “the church” here makes some people tone deaf moving forward, that this is some sort of revisionist replacement theology.) If you have been called by God to know His doctrine of salvation in Christ Jesus, then you are of the nation of Abraham. Abel, for instance, was not an Israelite or a Jew, yet is part of the faithful. Noah and his family. The Roman soldier was called faithful and was not an Israelite or a Jew. Believers throughout all of time, whether Jew or Gentile, circumcised of their hearts not of the flesh, are heirs to the promised land, an eternal kingdom not of this world. Canaan was a picture, a type. Israel was a type.

            Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
            Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
            Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
            Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

            Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
            Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
            Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
            Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
            Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

            By the by, God indicates through Joshua that the land covenant was indeed fulfilled. Whether they got to enjoy it depended on whether they had the faith to suit up and go get it…

            Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
            Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
            Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

            However, they didn’t enjoy all of it, nor take full possession, because they believed in other gods, not Elohim.

            Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
            Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

            In Acts 7, Stephen claimed that the unbelieving generation did not worship God during their whole 40 years in the wilderness (Acts 7:42) but rather worshiped the starry host (Acts 7:43). Even up until the day the Jewish authorities delivered up Christ to the Romans, they (nationally) had never really worshiped the one true God, but variations of satan. Stephen’s death followed shortly after pointing out to Annas this small detail. Apostate Judaism, national Israel, denied and crucified Messiah, God made flesh.

            Jesus is already king! His enemies have been made His footstool! He conquered Satan and death! He reigns now!

          • Phil

            tiptopsaidhe,

            “Yes, the nation that comes from Abraham is believers, those called in faith, the chosen of God, the “church.” (Including “the church” here makes some people tone deaf moving forward, that this is some sort of revisionist replacement theology.)”

            No, the nation in view as it pertains to the Abrahamic covenant includes unbelieving Israelites. They can lose their birthright, their inheritance and their heritage, but they cannot lose their blood kinship and identity any more than you or I can.

            The Hebrews verses you quote have nothing to do with the covenant made with Abraham.

            The Romans verses you quote are about the adoption and inheritance. You should have included verse 3:

            “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh”

            The Israelites Paul mentions were still his brethren and The covenant relationship is intact because of the integrity of the God who made the covenant.

            ===

            As to the land, that promise will not fade. Ezekiel describes the millennial temple complex in great detail in chapters 40-46, he goes on to say in 47:13-14,

            “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “These are the boundaries by which you are to divide the land for an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel, with two portions for Joseph. You are to divide it equally among them. Because I swore with uplifted hand to give it to your forefathers, this land will become your inheritance.” “

            ===

            “Jesus is already king! His enemies have been made His footstool! He conquered Satan and death! He reigns now!”

            Well, that is exciting, but it is premature. Back to Ezekiel:

            43:7 “And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile….”

          • Phil, Hebrews 11 does speak of Abraham…and Abel, Enoch, and Noah…men called by faith.

            As I quoted, God said through Joshua that the land covenant had been fulfilled. I have to believe that God didn’t have Joshua lie to us. If you want to believe that God lied to us through Joshua, that is a personal issue you need to talk with God about.

            We are far apart on the millennial kingdom thoughts. If there is a millennial kingdom, I’m all for it. I guess that makes me pro-millennial. But, knowing that the origins of the rapture and millennial kingdom theology come from a political motivation from Rome in the 1500s, instead of a biblical one, automatically makes it unworthy of pursuit. I suppose it was an honorable pursuit to try and protect the pope from the reformers accusations of anti-christ, but that’s not a reason to make it part of our doctrine. In fact, it disqualifies it altogether.

            You quoted a nice quote from Ezekiel regarding Christ as king. That was fulfilled at Calvary!

          • Phil

            tiptopsaidhe,

            “But, knowing that the origins of the rapture and millennial kingdom theology come from a political motivation from Rome in the 1500s”

            Really? I didn’t know that. My take on the rapture comes from Bible verses. I guess I should ask, do you believe in a Second Advent, whereby Jesus Christ literally comes back to this earth?

          • Phil asked “do you believe in a Second Advent, whereby Jesus Christ literally comes back to this earth?”

            I grew up under the same dispensational rapture teaching that most everyone else did. It’s only in the last couple of years that I learned of the Jesuit Ribera and his commentary that moved Daniel 9 out to the future to protect the pope’s credibility from the accusations of the reformers. So, I’m still learning.

            That being said, Jesus told us in Matt 24 and in Matt 26 that He would come in the clouds in judgment on apostate Jerusalem before that generation died out. Did he? Or was He lying about it?

            From Josephus, War of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5, Para 3….”Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.” http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-6.htm

            By the way historians date Josephus, this happened in 66 AD.

            The medieval Jewish historian Sepher Yosippon expounds upon this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 by saying, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.” Sepher Yosippon A Mediaeval History of Ancient Israel translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman.

            Here’s a link to delve deeper…http://revelationrevolution.org/jesus-the-son-of-man-was-seen-in-the-clouds-in-a-d-66/

            Historians make it appear that Jesus did, indeed, come in the clouds in judgment. Annas, the high priest Jesus was talking to in Matt 26, died at the outset of the Jewish Roman war in the 6th month of 66 (does that number seem odd?) “But on the next day the high priest was caught where he had concealed himself in an aqueduct; he was slain, together with Hezekiah his brother, by the robbers: hereupon the seditious besieged the towers, and kept them guarded, lest any one of the soldiers should escape. Now the overthrow of the places of strength, and the death of the high priest Ananias, so puffed up Manahem, that he became barbarously cruel;” Josephus War of the Jews 2.17.9 In the previous paragraph, it says…”But Manahem and his party fell upon the place whence the soldiers were fled, and slew as many of them as they could catch, before they got up to the towers, and plundered what they left behind them, and set fire to their camp. This was executed on the sixth day of the month Gorpieus [Elul]. If the fire was set in the night, it may be likely that Annas was killed on the 6th day of the 6th month of 66.”

            Is that the second coming? Or, is He coming again? Or does He come again each time a believer is saved? Or is He here, among us, in the bodies of our temples, reigning now? Is the kingdom already among us?

          • Phil

            tiptopsaidhe,

            “That being said, Jesus told us in Matt 24 and in Matt 26 that He would come in the clouds in judgment on apostate Jerusalem before that generation died out. Did he? “

            No. The verses in Matthew 24 and 26 read like this:

            30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

            64 “Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

            This is not talking about a dust cloud on the horizon raised by advancing Roman legions. Besides, He had already described the spectacle of His coming in 24:27

            “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

            Revelation 1:7 also mentions the clouds, and who will see him:

            “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

            It doesn’t work at all. If you read the narrative on Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, His return will be a rescue, not a judgment. Compare the verses above with Revelation 19:15-19, and Zechariah 12:2-10.

            The generation He was speaking of is the one that will witness everything He mentions, not just the details that preterists want to abuse. It would be like someone writing about the people who fought War 2, and describing them as the generation that would defeat the Nazis. Read chapter 23 and see how the word is used there.

  • For as long as I can remember there has been the argument that the Church wiil be raptured before the tribulation. Jesus mention both ‘TRIBULATION”and ‘GREAT TRIBULATION>are these one and the same. Now to the reference of ‘Jacob troubles” To whom is this referring. He Had 12 sons to whom the name Israelites were given. Up until the reign of Solomon there were one nation. Later a division set in and they became 2 nations. The Jews are of the nation which had Jerusalem and the temple called Judah. Simple logic tell me that “Jacob troubles must refer to the 12 tribes who were given that name .
    The so-called lost 10 tribes are still in existence today. They have lost their identity but not their biological dna. Now you even have to look further to understand who are biblical gentiles. Biblical nationality refer to all the persons who are not descended from Abraham as gentiles. So they can be a two prong looking for gentiles and for Israelites. Would you like to help in this exercise?? You dont have to worry about the west since nationally they have descended from Europe.North American Indians and Amerindians are gentiles .Slave brought to America are also gentiles.

  • Those of us who acknowledge the scriptures as the inspired word of God, take it literally in most cases. Many pick and choose what suit them. Those who only see God as Love will dis miss all scriptures which speak of his anger or wrath. Answering –Tiptopsaidhe__ Is that the second coming? Or, is He coming again? Or does He come again each time a believer is saved? Or is He here, among us, in the bodies of our temples, reigning now? Is the kingdom already among us? Why do you do this disservice to the English Language. The word “second” mean that which come after “first. Notice these words are always in the singular tense.there are no plurals. This answer the above questions. If you understood the work of the Holy Spirit and read scripture you would not have asked those questions. John 14v10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. This is how Jesus comes to those who believe in Him. This is not any second coming.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Please read these verses again. I will deal with Jesus’s own word about his “Second coming. John 14v1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    Acts1v9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. DO YOU BELIEVE THESE WORDS.

    • chesterfield walrond: The bodily return of Christ is yet future since we are still human. But since Pentecost, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them which are saved. At Christs bodily return the saved will be given new immortal bodies. And this transformation occurs right before the end of the world prevails. Read 1 Cor 15 💡

      • Phil

        MRH,

        “At Christs bodily return the saved will be given new immortal bodies.”

        That doesn’t work because He is bringing them with Him.

        • Phil: Not exactly so as declared below 😉

          1Co 15:51-53 KJV – 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

          Note: Both the dead and living will be changed the instant Christ returns at the last trump, one does not precede the other as is commonly taught. And this dramatic miracle event also occurs before the end of the world segment prevails 🙂

          1Co 15:22-24 KJV – 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

          Note: The resurrection precedes the rapture which occurs at the very end at Christs glorious appearance unto the world 🙂

          P.S. The church has the resurrection and rapture as the same event which is clearly not the case according to above 😉

          • Phil

            MRH,

            “Not exactly so….

            Yep, exactly so. There is no way around the reality that resurrected saints will be coming with the Lord when He returns.

            Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

            Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

            1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

            1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

            1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

            Jude:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

            1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

            Revelation 19:
            11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
            12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
            13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
            14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

        • Phil: You’re missing the point. The resurrection is our salvation NOT the rapture. The rapture occurs when the kingdom is complete at the end. Anyway, at the moment of Christs return, all the saints prior to the end will be made immortal. And all saints during the end will be immediately immortalized upon death. Remember that the last enemy to be destroyed will be death? Unfortunately the bible is vague on many end time matters, which is why the confusion within the churches 🙁

          • NO, the Rapture of the Church happens before the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble. The Kingdom gets created at the end of the Battle of Armageddon.

          • Phil

            MRH,

            “The rapture occurs when the kingdom is complete at the end. Anyway, at the moment of Christs return, all the saints prior to the end will be made immortal.”

            You have a difficult sequence problem to solve. The verses I listed unequivocally say that glorified believers accompany the Lord at the second coming. In 1 Thessalonians 4, the premier Rapture passage, Paul speaks of the second coming in verse 14, and then goes on to explain how the army that will accompany Him winds up with Him in heaven before He returns.

    • Yes, I believe these words. I also believe they were written to the “that generation” whom Jesus addresses in the Olivet prophecy in Matt 24.

      Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

      You and I aren’t part of that generation, which was 20 or so generations ago.

      Mat 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
      Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
      Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

      Here, Jesus tells the High Priest that he will live to see Jesus coming in the clouds.

      Josephus gives testimony that such a thing may have happened. I posted it above.

      So, what if it did? What if the Olivet prophecy of Matt 24 was fulfilled in that generation, as Jesus promised? What if it was Jesus whom Josephus writes about…that Jesus already came a second time in judgment of apostate Jerusalem? Does it hurt your feelings? Does it cause fear? Would it mean we are left out somehow? What would happen to your “religion” if you had to wipe the board clean from these “rapture” notions? Would it mean the house that is built on the Father’s mansion for you since before the foundation of the world somehow couldn’t be yours any longer? Of course it doesn’t.

      btw, thanks for including the Acts reference. Acts and Luke were written to son of Annas, Theophilus, who was the high priest from 37-41. Luke wrote his gospel to him during his tenure, then wrote Acts to him when his son, Matthias, was the acting high priest (it would be like writing a letter to Bush Sr. when he was Potus, then writing him again when W was Potus). Both were letters to try and persuade Theophilus to influence the family to stop persecuting the believers because the craziness was provoking the Roman empire. Luke feared that Rome would come and destroy the city and the temple. As it turns out, Luke was wrong. God destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, utilizing the Roman army. What is even cooler is that Balaam prophesied it way back in Numbers:

      Num 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim, and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber, and he also shall perish for ever.

      You may take offense to me not subscribing to the notions of the RCC regarding this rapture stuff, but please don’t. Knowing the origins of the story come from Jesuit priests makes it a non-starter for me. Teach me, without any references to Daniel’s 70th week not being fulfilled. Please don’t try and tell me that God stopped time after the 69th week and we are awaiting Him to kick time back in “sometime” out in the future. God didn’t keep time for 483 years of Daniel’s prophecy, then decide to suspend it because things weren’t working out the way He planned it. That’s pure nonsense to me. With the 70th week fulfilled, that does away with a future temple (which is never mentioned anywhere and would make Christ’s sacrifice moot) and a future anti-christ. Now what?

      • “Yes, I believe these words. I also believe they were written to the “that generation” whom Jesus addresses in the Olivet prophecy in Matt 24.”

        tiptopsaidhe: Not true, as Jesus was speaking prophetically (future vision) NOT literally unto the present crowd. In fact the entire Olivet discourse is a prophetic message unto the church age and beyond unto his glorious return in judgment 😉

      • Phil

        tiptopsaidhe,

        “a future temple (which is never mentioned anywhere and would make Christ’s sacrifice moot)”

        It is mentioned 9 times in the book of Ezekiel, who was in exile in Babylon after Solomon’s Temple had be destroyed.

        • Phil, Yes, that temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem. Those are the 70 weeks of Daniel.

          Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (70 sevens), and threescore and two weeks (62 sevens): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

          The first division governed the 49 years (seven weeks) it took to build the Temple and the walls surrounding the city. The second division governed the time from the building of the Temple and walls to the anointing of Messiah 434 years later (and threescore and two weeks).

          This was fulfilled.

          Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks (after the 49+434 years = 483 years) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (Titus of Rome) that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
          Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (the 70th week): and in the midst of the week (486.5 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Calvary), and for the overspreading of abominations (martyr of Stephen) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

          The temple and the temple system became moot and useless at Calvary, and God used the Roman army to destroy it in 70AD. Then, to make sure that one will never be built there again, He allowed the muslims to build the dome of the rock on the piece of dirt.

          The sacrifices and oblations have ceased, forever, by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The temple of Christ is in your heart.

          • sorry, need an edit button: should say 7 sevens, not 70 sevens. The entire 490 years was 70 sevens.

            Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (7 sevens), and threescore and two weeks (62 sevens): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

          • Phil

            tiptopsaidhe,

            “that temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem”

            No, that doesn’t work at all for lots of reasons. One of the most important is found in Ezekiel 37:

            22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

            23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

            24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

            25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

            26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

            This, of course, has never happened, and can only happen during the millennium.

        • /Phil
          9 August 2016 at 7:57 pm

          tiptopsaidhe,

          “that temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem”

          No, that doesn’t work at all for lots of reasons. One of the most important is found in Ezekiel 37:

          22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

          23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

          24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

          25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

          26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

          This, of course, has never happened, and can only happen during the millennium./

          This would suggest that David is going to be king over this kingdom.

          All of this you quote has been fulfilled at Calvary. Jesus is the new covenant of peace, and everlasting covenant, and He is the sanctuary in the midst forevermore. The land of Israel is a “typology” of the heavenly kingdom. The people of Israel are those who have been drawn by God to know His doctrine of salvation in Christ Jesus. Christ is the king, one king to all. No longer Jews and Gentiles, but King to believers.

          Building another temple would makes Christ sacrifice worthless. You are the temple where God dwells now.

          What you are teaching us is dispensational theology. It originates in the Roman Catholic Church, and pushed forward by Darby, then Scofield in the early 1900s. Hal Lindsey took it further with the Late Great Planet Earth, and LaHaye brought it into our churches with Left Behind. It’s called futurism. It originates in a commentary from a Jesuit Priest. Preterism also originated in the RCC, as did historicism. Presterism says that Nero was the anti-christ, but that’s not possible because Nero never went to Jerusalem and never sat in the temple proclaiming to be God.

  • Dave leo

    mostly everything good Geoffrrey except the pre-trib….christians will be here during the tribulation…you are doing a great diservice by telling christians they will taken away in the rapture before all the troubles…it is not scripturally sound….once this doesn’t happen like you think it will…this will cause the great falling away because so many will be offended at GOd…rethink brother

    • “christians will be here during the tribulation”

      Dave leo: True but only in glorified form in the end which is the second half of tribulation. The first half begins after the temple abomination and ends with first resurrection process which continues unto rapture prior to millennium. Anyway, people wrongly interpret the Olivet discourse which somewhat details things 🙁

      Hint: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days…” is NOT the end of the great tribulation! Only the end of the first segment. See my [bracket inserts] below.

      Mat 24:21, 29 KJV – 21 For then [after temple abomination] shall be great tribulation [start of both parts], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. … 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [end of 1st part] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken [2nd part]:
      Mar 13:24 KJV – 24 But in those days [start of 2nd part], after that tribulation [end of 1st part], the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light [2nd part],

      P.S. Much of the interpretation problem lies in the quirky OE style language of the KJV, so one must read things very carefully when doing scripture studies 😉

    • Dave leo: Again in Luke (see my brackets)

      Luk 21:22-26 KJV – 22 For these be the days of vengeance [both parts start], that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled [1st part ends 2nd part begins]. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken [2nd part].

  • MRH,

    “The rapture occurs when the kingdom is complete at the end. Anyway, at the moment of Christs return, all the saints prior to the end will be made immortal.”

    You have a difficult sequence problem to solve. The verses I listed unequivocally say that glorified believers accompany the Lord at the second coming. In 1 Thessalonians 4, the premier Rapture passage, Paul speaks of the second coming in verse 14, and then goes on to explain how the army that will accompany Him winds up with Him in heaven before He returns.

    Phil: Yes, but you fail to understand that the second coming deliverance of the saints is a two stage event divided by time. The first stage is the first resurrection (before the end), the second stage is the rapture (after the end). The thing is that the first resurrection is extended unto the millennium. The end will be when tribulation is greatest, and when the beast kingdom reigns. We are presently in the beast kingdom that is forming, it is called the NWO.

    P.S. The great tribulation begins with the temple abomination and ends at the glorious appearance and heavenly gathering 😉

  • NO, the Rapture of the Church happens before the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble. The Kingdom gets created at the end of the Battle of Armageddon.

    Actually the holy kingdom has been forming since Pentecost, it is called the church or body of Christ or temple of God. The resurrection is when the saints are glorified. The rapture is when the holy kingdom is delivered unto God in heaven at the end.

  • Stuart 11 August 2016 at 7:28 pm
    Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being GATHERED to him (THE RAPTURE), we ask you, brothers and sisters,not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the DAY OF THE LORD has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.…”2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
    If you believe the DAY OF THE LORD begins with the rapture of the church, then the AC shows up first

    @Stuart: The key word is ‘revealed’. And I don’t think it means a political ruler aspect. I believe the implication is of satanic aspect. But in what way will this revealing be is yet unknown. However there are many clues that the rulers of this world are demon driven puppets. Being thus said, the AC may already be in power. And if Obama continues reign at the UN next year, then we will better understand things. For the UN is the hub of the satanic NWO. Which I believe is the Beast. However there are two stages involved in matter, and the revealing occurs in part two. Which is during the ‘time of the end’ according to Daniel 11. Revelation 13b also details things. Being thus said, the church is resurrected prior to the end according to 1 Cor 15. Therefore the church (in present human form) will be gone by the time the Beast reigns. Because once we are resurrected we are no longer bound by the world, though present in it (immortals). As for the rapture itself, it occurs later at the end of the end 😉

  • Stephenie, I know we are all searching for the truth. The word “reveal” means uncovered , to be clearly visible. So Paul was saying the “antichrist ” will be clearly visible and uncovered. How was Jesus reveal to the world as “the Son of God”” He fulfilled all that was written in the Law of Moses and the prophets. So ir will be with the antichrist. So there must be a temple for him to sit in.
    Concerning the church.in present human form First forget Roman Catholics who claim the vast majority of christians. Episcopal Lesbians and homosexual pastors who lead decieve sheeple. It seem that you have never read Romans 1 or Rev 3v14 about the endtime church v14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
    15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. DID YOU SEE ANY RAPTURE IN THAT REBUKE.NOW look at the next verses. v17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent
    Pretribbers are decieving themselves into thinking that God or Jesus is please with the state of the church. Scripture say He is not. You better wake up.

  • “Concerning the church.in present human form First forget Roman Catholics who claim the vast majority of christians”

    chesterfield walrond: The church is NOT a religious institution as commonly thought. The church is the ‘body of Christ’ or ‘temple of God’ as scripture teaches. A Christian is one whom is ‘born again’ or ‘born of God’. Salvation is obtained by believing the gospel message NOT by being a member of organized religion. As for tribulation vs. rapture debate, please see my study 🙂

    http://aeroventure.com/Resurrection&Rapture/Resurrection&Rapture.htm

    As for the AC identity, Daniel has several hidden clues in chapters; 7, 8, 11. Also Rev 13 😉

  • T. Peter Zlomek

    Many people think that all believers will be raptured. Not so.
    “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:52)

    If people read just this verse, they take it out of context from the book as a whole. Many assume that all believers will be taken up. What people fail to notice is that in the same book,
    1 Corinthians 1:2, as an introduction to the book reads:

    “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:”

    Therefore, it’s crucial for everyone to know that sanctified means set apart as or declared holy, in essence, to be consecrated unto God. Consider this scripture verse:

    “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified , and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.” (2 Tim. 2:20-22)

    Jesus stated in John 15:4, “Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.” Jesus made a conditional statement that He will stay with each of us as believers if we remain in Him. We willfully choose to either remain in Him, or we choose to revert back to the wickedness of the world from which He delivered us.

    Consider Galatians 5:19-21:
    “19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissention, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Consider 2 Peter 2:1…22:
    “1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that ‘bought them’, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of …… 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not ; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;…. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

    Unbelievers go to hell for eternity. However, believers in Christ who choose to reject the Light of The World after embracing Him will be given their heart’s desire; “the mist of darkness”. I suspect that these are the black holes in space where the darkness is so deep it’s horrifying. Apostle Peter indicates that never having gotten saved, in essence, going to hell for all eternity, would be more desirable than being a believer in Christ who has chosen to return to the world and the lusts of the flesh. Those who choose to return to the darkness of the world will be given for all eternity, what they expressly desire: the mist of darkness. I promise you, the mist of darkness is far more agonizing than eternity in hell.

    Consider Matthew 24:48-51:
    “48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of , 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the ‘hypocrites’: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

    Very scary when you begin to understand the implications involved with not being washed clean on a regular ‘day in, day out’ basis. The Lord of Hosts is announcing that God’s bathtub of sanctified believers will soon be revealed! Let the sanctified be thankful for God’s mercy upon them, and let the foolish be warned about what lies ahead!

    Romans 11:22
    “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness; otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

  • T. Peter Zlomek,
    What you espouse in your comment is pure legalism. Those who are saved He keeps until the day He comes for them. Our salvation is not based on what we do before or after we are saved. It is based on His promise. John dispels your entire theory in one statement.
    1John2:19- “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us”.

  • Phil

    T. Peter Zlomek,

    “Very scary when you begin to understand the implications involved with not being washed clean on a regular ‘day in, day out’ basis.”

    I think most everyone would agree that we should be consistent and habitual about our self-examination. My question would be about what is technically happening. I accept the idea that there are two modes of sanctification, positional and temporal.

    Positionally, we are the result of divine craftsmanship whereby we are permanently changed. It is characterized scripturally in verses like this:

    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

    On the other hand, our temporary state depends on our performance:

    “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

    It stands to reason that if we don’t confess our sins, we are not forgiven, and are not clean. However, we are not constantly going from saved to unsaved to saved. We will be chastised, and suffer loss for being in contempt. But we do not lose our status.

  • To those of you who are contributing to this blog, May God have mercy on you and open your mind to understanding his Word.. Here is my starting point. Romans 8v14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    John 14v 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    1John 2v24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
    25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
    26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
    27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
    28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him Are L_B_G_H_T born of God?
    My first question is the Holy Spirit “THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION.” Can all of you say that you have that Holy Spirit? How is it then that there is so much misrepresenting of God’s truth. Could you all imagine what heaven would be like with all o f us all believing different things. The word says, no scripture is of any private interpretation. This is exactly what many of you are doing.
    Mr Grider, you said the rapture is to prevent “baby christians” from taking the mark of the beast. If you were God this is what you would do, right. No fruit of the spirit, no character.On what basis would they be able to judge devils. Why did Paul write in Hebrew warning the believers to grow up from drinking milk and use solid food. He explain that milk is for babies.Again if you were God, you would rapture the church with all the inpurities, and abominations which exist in Laodicea. As long as they say they love Jesus nothing else matters.yeh OK I see where you are heading. Those that did not make the rapture are left for the tribulation,right. Here is my question.?I missed the rapture and the tribulation has started., I need food to survive , there is no money in circulation, but I have a debit card. But Rev13 say I will have to have the mark to buy and sell. I have one of two choices, Take the mark, get food to eat and damn my soul.Or reject the mark and be martyred. I have missed the FIRST RESURRECTION. WHAT NEXT?

  • Pete

    I will try to explain, although nobody here agrees with my view. This was written to an actual church, the assembled Christians in Philadelphia, in the 1st century. So it had to make sense to them. It had to be relevant to them. So when the Lord, through the epistle from John, told these folks that they would be kept from the hour of trial that would come upon all the world, He was talking TO them, ABOUT them, those actual people of that day.

    The word “world” in that verse is the Greek “oikoumenē” which means the known world. Typically in Greek it was used to represent the Roman empire part of the world. Not the entire globe. Here’s another well-known use of it: Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world [oikoumenē] should be taxed.

    Nobody in our day would assume Augustus taxed ancient America. Same goes with Revelation 3:10. There was an hour of trial that would be coming upon the known world. And those in Philadelphia would be kept from it.

    Did these people expect to be raptured to heaven?

    What were they to make of this?

  • Phil

    Pete,

    “The word “world” in that verse is the Greek “oikoumenē” which means the known world. Typically in Greek it was used to represent the Roman empire part of the world. Not the entire globe.”

    The same word is used in this verse:

    “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:9

    And this one:

    “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” Revelation 16:14

    Is this talking about the Roman empire?

  • Pete

    Phil, yes I believe so. Isn’t that interesting that the words used speak of a more local event and not worldwide? What event could that have been talking about? Could it have been talking about an event that was to “shortly” come to pass (Rev 1:1)? An event that Jesus said would occur in “this generation” (Matt 24:34)? And event that someone could flee Judea to the mountains to escape? An event that had the destruction of the temple at the center of it? One that was to end the “age” of the old covenant?

  • Phil

    Pete,

    “Phil, yes I believe so.”

    Okay. But that would mean that 12:9 should read:

    “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole Roman empire”

    and 16:14

    “spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole Roman empire, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty”

    So is Satan’s deceit restricted to Senatus Populusque Romanus? And when did those devils work those miracles and gather those kings to a battle?

    ===

    “An event that had the destruction of the temple at the center of it?”

    But according to Luke, the destruction of the Temple was the beginning of a finite period of time:

    21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    And it is only after this that:

    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    So Titus’ legions and the Second Coming have to be events separated by time.

    Things like this are why preterists will always be on the defensive. Nothing is ever a tight fit with the narrative.

  • Pete

    Hi Phil, yes, that is exactly what it means. Of course it doesn’t mean that Satan’s deception was restricted only to the known world, that isn’t what it says or even implies. Only that the known world is what is in view in these passages of scripture. Paul also told the Athenians in Acts 17:30-31 that God had appointed a day that He would judge that world and they needed to learn who their “unknown God” was. That Greek world was lost and very, very corrupt and wicked. Does that imply that God was only planning on ever judging their world and not the rest of the world? Of course not. Just that the world Paul spoke of in that case was the known Roman empire.

    I don’t believe the “coming in a cloud” is the bodily second coming of Jesus but rather Jesus coming in judgment from heaven (see Daniel 7:13 and Isaiah 19:1). The phrase “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” just means Jerusalem would be destroyed by Gentiles for a time, until such time as that was completed. And since God is in control, I just take that to mean God would allow the Gentiles to trod down Jerusalem until He saw fit to stop it. Which happened to be around 3.5 years.

    On that note….there is a tendency by certain groups to hijack words and phrases for their view and redefine them. Thus, according to futurists, “times of the Gentiles” must always, and only, mean the time we are living in now until the last Gentile is saved. That isn’t backed up by scripture. You guys also like to define “day of the Lord” as being only one specific time – a time that has yet to occur which includes the second coming, or the tribulation and various other things. Again, not backed up by scripture. The day of the Lord is merely any time God directly intervenes in humanity. It has happened many times in the past.

    What an odd statement “preterists will always be on the defensive”. Of course I have to defend what I say, that’s how it should be. I have listened to hundreds of pre-trib sermons. While I cannot claim that I know it all and that there are zero problems with my views, certainly pre-tribbers spend many hours defending their “clearly taught in scripture” viewpoint.

  • Pete

    Phil in addition to what I wrote above, can you explain why, if Rev 3:10 is a promise made to the whole church, why it is only said to the church in Philadelphia? Are all of the other churches in Rev 2 and 3 not really the church?

  • Phil

    Pete,

    “The phrase “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” just means Jerusalem would be destroyed by Gentiles for a time, until such time as that was completed”

    I don’t think so. There are companion verses to Luke 21:24. Paul associated the blindness of Israel with Gentiles in this verse:

    “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” Romans 11:25

    Israel is still blind, so the fulness of the the Gentiles cannot be complete.

    “Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.” Acts 15:14

    God is still visiting the Gentiles, and still taking out of them a people for His name. The Church is largely a Gentile enterprise because of the blindness Paul mentioned. But it is a finite body, and there will come a time when it is complete. I believe that the rapture could be triggered when the Lord adds the last member.

    The school of thought I follow holds to the idea that the “times of the Gentiles” will last two thousand years.

    “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” 2 Peter 3:8

    This is not a statement of relativity. It is a very profound and precise declaration. If you couple what Peter is saying here with a prophecy in Hosea 6, the church age and the millennium both come into view:

    “1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
    2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.”

    • Pete

      Hi Phil, bear with me…..

      //one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day….This is not a statement of relativity. //

      It’s pretty obvious that it is. Elsewhere in the Bible we are told that a thousand years is as a “watch in the night” to God (Psa 90:4) or around 3-4 hours. How can a thousand years literally be one 24 hour period to God (who is 100% outside of time entirely by the way) yet also 3-4 hours? The point the Psalmist originally made, and Peter quoted, is that God is outside of time.

      Do you think God has already raised up Israel, per Hosea 6:2? If so, when does the millennium begin? I think it’s rather risky to create entire doctrines around such speculation.

      //Paul associated the blindness of Israel with Gentiles in this verse//

      Romans 11:25 is speaking about something entirely different than Luke 21:24. Again, this “time of the Gentiles” phrase has been given an exclusive definition by the creators of modern dispensationalism, exclusively to back up the viewpoint. It is a definition without Biblical merit. One could easily surmise from Luke 21 that Luke 21:24 was finished long ago, after the Gentiles (Romans) destroyed the temple and trod upon Jerusalem from 66-70AD. The only way around this is to make the historically incorrect claim that Jerusalem has been continuously trodden down for 1900 years by the Gentiles. I know…people DO say that. It isn’t factual and it’s easy to prove otherwise.

      I believe you misread Romans 11 where Paul says Israel has been PARTIALLY blinded. That is, PART of Israel was blinded even as Paul wrote this, not the whole nation. There was a remnant that was not blinded (Romans 11:5. A remnant that was still in the tree, grafted in alongside the Gentiles (Romans 11:17).

      Dispies change the meaning to say that ALL of Israel has been “blinded for a time” until the last Gentile is saved. That is completely wrong. Tens of thousands of Israelites were saved in the 1st century, enduring incredible hardship because of it, and took the Gospel out of Jerusalem to the ends of the known world in Paul’s day (Romans 10:18). That’s why you and I are saved today. They did what Jesus said: took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

      There was a part of Israel that were blinded, which was the apostate Israel who were Paul’s brethren after the flesh (Rom 9:3). These were people with whom Paul shared deep bonds. He desperately wanted them to be saved. So much so that he wished he could be accursed in their place.

      But lest Gentiles think God had cut off Israel entirely, Paul says “Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” That is, there were some that were NOT blinded. Some that were saved. This remnant never went away.

  • Phil

    Pete,

    “It’s pretty obvious that it is.”

    No, it is extremely obvious from the subject matter of the chapter that it is not. Peter was not writing about the general attributes of God. He was speaking about the end times:

    “../that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?”

    “…the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men”

    “…the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

    Peter was pointing out something very important (and he was not quoting from Psalm 104). He began the verse by saying

    “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing…”.

    Those are not casual words. He is emphasizing something critical.

    ===

    “Do you think God has already raised up Israel, per Hosea 6:2?”

    No. The second regathering has been going on since the late 1800’s, but it is not complete:

    “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.” Isaiah 11:11

    ===

    “If so, when does the millennium begin?”

    Right after the Lord wastes tens of millions of Chicoms, muslims and other assorted heathen troops at the Second Coming, and relegates Satan to the bottomless pit.

    But you must think that the days Hosea mentions were just ordinary days. When did “After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up” happen?

    ===

    You’re correct about the partial blindness, and the Church began with the conversion of countless Jews. But nevertheless, as Paul wrote “And so all Israel shall be saved”. I don’t really see how the Lord coming back as Roman Legions and sacking Jerusalem accommodates that promise.

  • Pete

    Well Phil, we are at an impass on the thousand years. You didn’t address the “watch in the night” reference, I guess in your mind it’s irrelevant. Whatever. Unfortunately for you and the other speculators who hold onto that “2000 year long church age” nonsense, you will be proven wrong in a few years. For the record, the age of Christianity will never end. You and I will be in the glory of Jesus Christ, in this age, 10,000 years from now. It’s ok. I will still hang out with you. I won’t gloat about your belief system. And of course “on the way up” in the rapture, you promise not to gloat at me 🙂

    //When did “After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up” happen?//

    I don’t know, I will have to study it. It isn’t 2000 years. It’s 2 days. God said days, it’s days. Until I can see a reason not to think that. I read the Bible literally. The subject matter of this chapter is certainly not the church age and the millennium.

    //as Paul wrote “And so all Israel shall be saved”.//

    Paul meant “and in this manner shall all Israel be saved.” The word “so” there is houtō which means “in this manner”. It’s why the KJB translators placed a colon there…

    Rom 11:26 And [in this manner] all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob….In other words, Paul is telling us by what means everyone in Israel is saved. Through the Deliverer, Jesus.

    Kind of like saying “And so [In this manner] shall all get into the movie: they have to buy a ticket.” It isn’t meant to convey that ALL people in the world will get into the movie. It means there is only one manner by which all shall get into the movie…a ticket.

    Even you cannot say that ALL ISRAEL – every person – will someday be saved. We already have seen 1900 years of Israelites dying in their sins. And I presume that you believe 2/3 of the future Jews will die by the hand of the beast. Dispies always tell me this means “all of the remnant remaining at the end of the tribulation will be saved.” That isn’t what the verse says. And it isn’t what it means.

  • Christians might be able to ID the Antichrist by his name before he comes to power, but we will be gone during the tribulation, which is a time of judgement for earth dwellers, not the church, and the time of the redemption of Israel.

  • Pete

    I thought the time was “Jacob’s Trouble.” How could it be exclusively Jacob’s Trouble but also be the time of the Gentiles’ trouble? Something cannot be both exclusive and non-exclusive at the same time, that is not logical.

    Also you are wrong about a future “time of the redemption of Israel”. The time of the redemption of Israel is NOW, and Jesus came to redeem His people 2,000 years ago. God isn’t waiting around, there is nothing more for God to do. He sent His holy Son. What more is there? To claim that there is a future time period that Israel is still awaiting for their redemption is to deny that Jesus was their Redeemer, that His death was not their redemption, and essentially it’s to reject Him all over again.

    • The time of Jacob’s trouble is Israel in the Great Tribulation, that is when they will be redeemed. The time of the Gentiles is when the Antichrist and his followers rule the world, albeit for a very short time.

  • Pete

    You have a wonderful imagination. Tell me, why don’t you believe Jesus was Israel’s redeemer 2,000 years ago when He came and died? Why don’t dispensationalists think Jesus came to die for His people and save them from their sins?

  • The idea that the righteous will all be raptured out of the world just before the time of trouble and that only the wicked will be left behind to endure seven years of tribulation can be very appealing. Perhaps that is why this doctrine has gained such widespread acceptance. But the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.
    The phrase “seven years of tribulation” does not appear anywhere in Scripture. However, Jesus did say that a terrible time of trouble would come upon the world just before His return and that it would be more intense than any other in the history of this world. In His great prophetic discourse on the Mount of Olives, Jesus made the following statement: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened” (Matthew 24:21, 22).
    If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened!
    All throughout Scripture we see examples of the Lord saving His people through tribulation, not from it.
    Noah was not saved from the Flood, but through it.
    Daniel was not saved from the lions’ den, but through it.
    Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not were not saved from the fiery furnace, but through it. In fact, Jesus went through it with them, and He will go through the great tribulation with us, as well!
    The children of Israel were not saved from Egypt before the plagues fell, but afterward. God demonstrated His love and power by preserving them in Egypt through the 10 plagues. In the same way, the righteous will be in the world when the seven last plagues fall (Revelation 16), but God will preserve them.
    Psalm 91 contains special promises for those living during the last great tribulation. It says, “You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day, Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday. A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, And see the reward of the wicked” (Psalm 91:5-8, NKJV). The Psalmist makes it clear we will be in the midst of the world during the plagues, yet remain untouched, if God is our refuge. “No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling” (Psalm 91:10, NKJV).

  • Thanks Bobby, There is a scripture which says, those things that are written are examples for us, on whom the end is coming.Pre tribbers I call “escapist” God want people of faith who will endure unto the end. These people dont have faith in the power of God in the face of severe trials. Hebrews 11 you did not quote ,but I am sure it was on your mind. When Paul wrote this book he was recounting some of the painful experiences that believers were going through. The Laodicea endtime Church is not even expecting a rapture .Notice what is their responce to Jesus. Rev 3v15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. JDC NTB SBD
    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. JDC NTB SBD TTT
    17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    HAVE NEED OF NOTHING!!!!! Jesus words to this church has been answered. And they are looking for a rapture.

  • The seven year tribulation period has been adopted to fit Daniel 70 weeks prophesy . There are three 42 months period in Revelation. If they run separate them that is 126 months.I believe that the prophesying of the two witness will occur on or during the time when the beast wil be reigning. They have power to perform miracles.So there is probably a confrontation between them and the false prophet.Scripture say they will not be killed until then.

  • Chesterfield,
    The true church is looking for the “rapture” because scripture teaches that it would be the way things will happen. 1st coming(Mt.1:23), Jews rejection(John1:11), church age(Eph.3:2) fulness of the Gentiles then rapture(Rom.11:25 & 1Thes.4:17), time of Jacob’s trouble(Jer.30:7), 2nd coming(Jude1:14,15) millennium(Rev.20:6) , eternity(Rev.21:1-ff. Pretty simple really. 🙂

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