Heresy Preacher Priest Tony Palmer Dead After Urging Christians To Unite With Rome

Bishop Tony Palmer, a South African Bishop with the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches, has passed away after a motorcycle accident. Palmer gained worldwide media attention in January after Pope Francis sent a special envoy to a Charismatic Evangelical Leadership Conference Kenneth Copeland hosted.
tony-palmer-dies-in-bizarre-freak-accident-pope-francis

God appears to have relieved Tony Palmer of his command

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” Revelation 18:4 (KJV)

Just months after Anglican priest and personal friend to Pope Francis Tony Palmer gave  a rousing performance urging Christians to place themselves under the authority of the Roman Catholic system, he appears to have died suddenly in a motorcycle accident.

Tony Palmer had said that he was a “prophet in the spirit of Elijah”, and that his mission was to unite the Christian evangelical church with the Roman Catholic system. He declared “Martin Luther’s protest to be over”, and said that it was time for “Christians to come home to Rome”.  Tony’s deluded vision of seeing Christians “coming home to Rome” will also die with him.

“Tony Palmer, the charismatic young preacher who enjoyed a friendship with Pope Francis, has apparently died in a motorcycle accident,” Kathy Schiffer reported on her Seasons of Grace blog. “Not a Catholic, Palmer was bishop in the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches, a group that broke away from the Anglican Church and considered itself part of the Convergence Movement.”

Palmer presented a video message from the pope that went massively viral at the Copeland-hosted conference. The message centered on unity among Catholics and Protestants. Copeland prayed for the pope and sent a message of his own back to Francis.

 

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • Ort

    Wow. Did God remove this man? Only God Himself knows. Does it sound plausible? Sure.

    • suez

      Well, it is God that has control over life and death, so what do you think…LOL

      • Ort

        Suez: no need to be condescending. God doesn’t sit up in heaven zapping people left and right. If I trip and fall down the stairs and break my neck and die, by your logic, God “pushed” me.
        I think certain people are taken out by Him personally, but the majority simply die in due course without any “help” from God.

        • suez

          Sorry, wasn’t trying to be condescending, was just trying to make the point that it is God who in control!!! No matter what! 😉

          • Ort

            My apologies then. Yes, God is firmly in control at all times. : )

  • Looking at the background, the gathering did not appear to be Christian at all, neither Catholic nor Protestant! There was not a cross, not a crucifix, in sight!

    • revjarrett

      i have met and fellow-shipped with this brother! he interpreted for me at a conference. my impression was that he was a truly humble brother in the Lord. you judge him? really? may the Lord judge between him and those who judge him. 1`

      • I repeat, the background gave no indication of how we obtained grace. It was not even in the speeches. How about declaring the price Jesus paid with his blood and suffering and expressing fervent gratitude? Instead, we were presented with something that could be taken for a New Age logo presenting a way for everyone, someday even Muslims whose Koran tells them to slay believers in the cross. I hope to spend eternity with believers in the Nicene Creed, Apostles’ Creed, Protestants, Roman Catholics, and those of various Eastern Orthodox and Coptic faiths. I will get there through the blood of Christ.

      • Tom Way

        We are called to test all things, reprove and rebuke in the faith.To edify and bless through the truth.Many Christians are DECEIVED by the Tony Palmer’s of this world.
        Deceived by the Devil, “to not “judge”, is lunacy.

        Is this what you want?
        Do you follow “Men”, or the Truth and simplicity that is in Jesus Christ?
        That’s why we are called to Test All Things.Not as the Devil tells you, to “judge”.
        Or You Will Be Deceived.
        Stop following “men” and the lies of the Devil, the god of this world system.
        Anyone who says to “not judge”, is FOLLOWing, the world, the flesh and the Devil
        Simple.
        In Jesus mighty name.

  • Rob Costello

    About time we got Good News……..

  • Larry Grant

    Well, everything works out according to God’s plans, not ours. Like they used to say at Grateful Dead shows, “It’s gonna be a long night, and things are gonna get weird”.

    • Tony

      Is it possible that you are incorrect on your assessment of the Catholic Church?

      • mike

        not if you know who the 4th beast is and what that beast’s image is

        • Tony

          Do you think that you have a misunderstanding of what the 4th beast is?

  • TruthOnly

    No one messes with the Devil and expects no consequences!

  • Tony

    May God rest his soul.

    • suez

      Ah, David, maybe you should read the Bible, God removed many many people of their command. Please read the old testament, you may learn a great deal about God Almighty!!! Obliviously you haven’t done that… 🙁

      • revjarrett

        wow! what a hypocrite! you like job’ accusers assume that this brother in the Lord has sinned? you are a class a pharisee! you are the reason so many have abandoned the Church! they hear you tearing apart brothers and think… really? join this group of dogs?

        • Lentenlands

          The real dogs here are the homosexual pedophile lucifer-worshipers in the vatican. Don’t merge or join that group of demoniac pagan dogs.

          Association or merger with Rome is merger with the great harlot drunk on the blood of the saints. She is a relentless persecutor of anyone that truly loves the Lord and will not engage in her fornication with devils.

          • Gregory

            So, you are saying that Our Lord made a mistake? Who did He leave the keys of the Kingdom to? Who did He PROMISE that the power of Hell would not overtake? Jesus said to the Apostles as recorded by Luke “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me” The early church identified themselves as the Catholic Church and was good enough to collect and canonize the books of the Bible that you love. There was NO BIBLE for the first 35 years of the early church. It was the teaching authority of the 1st Apostles, see 1 Timothy 3:15. Our Lord Jesus would not have promised to be with the Church until the consummation of the world and not done so. He also promised to send the Spirit of Truth. And you know that He did. See Acts chapter 2. In closing I find myself being prompted by the Holy Spirit to depart from you and your wicked and foolish conversation. See what Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:23 “Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels.” You sir have drunken in the spirit of the evil one and are attacking the Bride of Christ. Pray for the Holy Spirit to convict you of your sin and beg for mercy from the Spirit and the Blood.

          • Yes,and amen tony was trying to do the work of satan.

        • Tom Way

          revjarrett-Ye shall know them by their fruit.What part of this don’t you understand?The world is Filled with ecumenical wolves in sheep’s clothing.
          It’s obvious you don’t understand the world you really live in.

          We are called to test all things, reprove and rebuke in the faith.To edify and bless through the truth.Many Christians are DECEIVED by the Tony Palmer’s of this world.
          Deceived by the Devil, “to not “judge”, is lunacy.

          Is this what you want?
          Do you follow “Men”, or the Truth and simplicity that is in Jesus Christ?
          That’s why we are called to Test All Things.Not as the Devil tells you, to “judge”.
          Or You Will Be Deceived.
          Stop following “men” and the lies of the Devil, the god of this world system.
          Anyone who says to “not judge”, is FOLLOWing, the world, the flesh and the Devil
          Simple.
          In Jesus mighty name.

          • terri

            Actually for Gregory. The RCC was going formed 300 yrs after Paul was martyred. According to catholic church you are only saved if catholic. Show reference where bible says that. Priests can forgive sins. Only person without sin can forgive sins. JESUS. His apostles never did that and they knew him. The old and new testament was completed within 100 yrs after Jesus death. The Bible is the e inspired word of God and I am sick andtired of the catholic church taking credit. I went to a catholic church from 2nd grade until 2 years of college. It is imposible to be saved at a catholic CHUR. NOTT ONCE WAS THE GOSPEL EVER MENTIONED AND OF COURSE MARY IS MORE IMP THAN JESUS

        • Dana

          So let me get this straight we are not suppose to say anything when someone in authority is clearly leading
          his flock back into bondage? There is a very real reason
          why Luther started the reformation and broke off the
          tyranny that is associtated with Cathalisism. I should know
          I was born and raised Catholic, then at age 21 got saved
          and am now a Baptist. I know the huge gigantic difference
          between both faiths, and I can tell you that Catholisism was sorely lacking. I never ever knew Jesus until I became a Baptist.

          • Tony

            But is there a big difference between the two faiths? We both believe in the inerrent, infallible written word of God, we believe in the virgin birth, the ascension, the Resurrection, we believe that we are saved by the grace of God, we agree on a host of moral issues. Now we do differ on some point as well. These include: the nature of the Eucharist, Scripture alone, faith alone, the role of the Blessed Mother, the role of the Pope, the rapture, and a few moral issues.

      • suez

        David just in case your a New Testament reader only, here is an example of God dealing with someone in the New Testament. Like I said dear sir, better start reading your Bible, instead of just listening to the priest or pastor!!! “Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
        Act 5:4 While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
        Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
        Act 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
        Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
        Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
        Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
        Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.” So, would you like to rephrase your words???? 🙂

    • Lentenlands

      You’d better get yourself a real Bible and go read it if you really think what you just said.

      • Tom Way

        Amen brother!

  • Andrew

    The fact that this human being died, left behind family and friends after a sudden and horrific accident, is very saddening to say the least. I may not agree with what his message was, but no one, especially CHRISTians should be automatically jump to the insensitive conclusion that “God appears to have relieved Tony Palmer of his command”. I don’t believe that it’s our place to assume that God would take a person’s life, when that person can be removed of his duty without death as the reasoning. Where’s the love that Jesus called us to in that supposition? I even see this attitude in some, if not most, of the comments. We should find this saddening and hope that he knew Jesus, and that those who were close to him know/will know the saving knowledge of the Gospel, through this tragic news.

    • Andrew

      …human being died, [and]* left behind family…

      …jumping* to the insensitive conclusion…

      In addition to what I said above; our first reaction to news like this shouldn’t be that his “vision will also die with him”. I don’t agree with Tony’s vision either, but our reaction, as Christians, should involve prayers for those he left behind, and grief for his soul. Especially if, as the article claims, you consider him to be a heretic. I don’t see a hint of that in the article. This article might as well have not been written, as I don’t see anything constructive, or even God-glorifying in it.

      That’s not all to say, that there weren’t personal thoughts of grief and/or prayers over this tragic situation, by the author of the article and those of the comments. But this article just rubbed me the wrong way to the point that I felt that I should comment. Have a blessed day everyone!

      • Annabel

        Andrew, your comments are one of the most polite ones in these comments. The most of them are full of hate. Bless you Lord for that!

      • Cynysha Thompson

        Study the history of the Papacy …… the TRUE history. Once you have done this then maybe you will come to understand WHY articles such as these are being published. Also, study the history of the Jesuits and note that this is the FIRST time in Papal history that a pope has not died holding his post and that this is the FIRST Jesuit Pope. Two popes alive at the same time, a Jesuit Pope in White to work in conglomeration with the Black Pope and Jesuit trained Bishop Tony Palmer essentially re-labeling anyone who still protests a heretic. We are on the verge of repeating the Dark Ages. If you choose to take it lying down, so be it, but don’t attempt to diminish the attempt of others to sound the warning cry!!!

        • Andrew

          You missed the point of what I said. The problem with the article is that it didn’t show any compassion towards the fact that a man died, especially when it’s a man that they article implies was possibly lost. I understand disagreeing with Tony Palmer’s vision, as I said I did. But, to get somewhat off the subject and further explain a growing issue I see in so many “die-hard” Christians these days; we have the overwhelming tendency to sacrifice compassion when we feel we are being done wrong or someone else is doing wrong. We can still speak our mind and display compassion.

          A perfect example is the protests and public boycotts when some company or organization that we usually do business with, turns out to not line up with our Christian values, especially when we once thought they did. When even the smallest of persecution happens, especially in America, so many Christians complain, boycott, protest, and so on, as if they didn’t know that Jesus said that we will be hated because of His name. So many, myself included, live as though they don’t really believe that the Holy Spirit is still at work in this world; and so in an attempt to make the change, instead of be the change, we do the Gospel we supposedly profess, more harm than good. Yes, Jesus flipped tables in righteous anger, but he also showed compassion and when persecuted, even to the point of death, not once did he complain or protest. We must live in love, live the Gospel, share the Gospel, and let the Holy Spirit change people’s hearts, whether it’s because they’ve seen Jesus in us, or because of something else God placed in their life to experience Him. I know the majority of what I said above isn’t on topic with this article, but I felt lead to say it anyways. Grace and peace to all who read this, in Jesus’ name.

  • watchman48

    [God appears to have relieved Tony Palmer of his command] Maybe so, just as He nearly did with King David; had David not repented for his part in killing Uriah the Hittite, the Prophet Nathan said God would have killed him.

    • eagle

      I am Christian and do not belong to a denomination. God’s Word does speak against organized religion ( Catholic church and her denominational daughters) and He is calling His Bride out of the denominational systems. I also know many genuine Christians who are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Salvation is through Jesus Christ only. Joining a church isnt what saves someone or makes them Christian though it is wonderful to attend church if it is a genuine Spirit-filled church. God’s Word does not contradict. God’s Word is perfect because He is the Almighty. There are many mysteries in the Bible to be revealed in this age. God promised – Malachi 4 to send a prophet for our time to reveal these things and he did. Just felt lead to reply. Dont look at the “system of organized religion” as an example of Christianity.

    • Cynysha Thompson

      You CONFUSE the Word of God with Paganism and ‘Man’s Way’. Ever since the inception of sin confusion has been the norm and in your post you present Catholic doctrine of which has no foundation along with other doctrine of unclear roots. Truth mixed with error is just ERROR. There is a cosmic battle between the power of good and the power of evil. This is the foundation of Christianity, Judaism, the Muslim faith, Buddhism and on and on. TRUTH must be sought individually so that one can connect with the one true Creator.

    • Ian Greenwood

      A TOTAL MYTH – A FRAUD

      The whole of Christianity is a myth, peddled by strange men with paedophilic tendencies wearing women’s dresses. Those people, who so far have not been seriously confronted with the facts of history, will sometimes be shocked at how human the course of events was in the development of the Christian Church.

      The records of history reveal that the sprouting papal hierarchy was so concerned that the general populace would learn that the Book of Revelation was a Christianized version of one of the Sibylline Books that in 405, the now-called bishop of Rome ordered Roman general Flavius Stilicho ‘to burn as many copies that he could find’ (Funk and Wagnell’s New Standard Dictionary, ‘Sibylline Books’, Also; Encyclopedia of the Roman Empire, Matthew Bunson, 1994, p. 396).

      This act reveals a premeditated attempt to conceal facts about the development of Christian literature that the Council is nothing more than an inexhaustible collection of priestly perversions of fact and truth that should not be taken seriously by anybody.

      The entire substance of the canonical Book of Revelation was in existence and used by Roman religionists centuries before the commencement of the Christian era.

      Like the primary version of the writing that later became the Gospel of John, the Book of Revelation never originally recorded the name of Jesus Christ nor any personages known in the Christian story today.

      Comparisons between the Sibyl’s writing and the canonical Book of Revelation reveal that the first six verses in today’s version of the Book of Revelation are fabricated justifications and the Sibyl’s narratives began at verse number seven in the first chapter. Other interpolations were intermingled in various positions throughout her flowing prose and the restructured fabrication is now official to Christianity.

      • Brenda Murphy

        The Holy Bible is amazing!
        It not only tells us where we came from, but it tells us of history, and also tells of future events.
        All in God’s Holy book. Wow! Truly amazing!:)

      • watchman48

        Ian – I certainly would like to know the names of schools, universities and professors where you gained your great knowledge… I want to make sure my grandkids stay as far away from these places and people as possible….
        The God of all Creation is God over all… That is you, me and everyone else; whether you choose to obey His WORD makes no difference!
        For the man who thinks he knows all that there is to be known, is nothing but a fool unto himself. Wisdom is gained from what man has experienced in life, but true spiritual wisdom comes from God alone. There is nothing in this life that man can say for a certainty, unless he has seen, or experienced directly or indirectly that which pertains to his statements, beliefs, or faith. In other words, for man to say, “I know God does not exist,” just because he personally has not experienced a life changing spiritual event is nothing less than pure ignorance.
        Even if a wise man claims he is wise or he displays his degrees from years of studying, without faith in God he still lacks the ability to comprehend or understand the existence of God, because his wisdom is that of the world’s.
        If you say you are wise then please tell me why should God reveal himself to someone that does not seek Him, or to someone that is not seriously wanting to know him in a personal way, much less to someone that does not believe in Him?
        God has chosen to hide Himself, but to those who fear Him, He will reveals His heart’s desires. In Psalms 91:1 He refers to His place of hiding as the secret place. Only those who fear God will find this secret place, as we are told: The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them. Psalm 25:14 NIV.

      • Cynysha Thompson

        You are confusing Papal propaganda with the Word of God. The Catholic Church is not Christian. Catholicism is an amalgamation of the Church that Jesus Christ founded after His death and the Paganism that existed during the time of Political Rome. The Church of Christ has no walls, no ceiling and consists of the pure, unadulterated Word of God. As far as debating which version is God’s PURE word that has not been tainted, YOU must be led INDIVIDUALLY by God’s Holy Spirit. Personally, I was led FIRST to the KJV and regardless if you were to have access to a Bible hundreds of years old complete in authenticity if God is not leading you in study, you still won’t receive the truth and blessing that His Word offers.

  • Ian Greenwood

    Connecting St. John’s Revelation with the Sibylline Books?

    The later Byzantine churches respected him so much that they called him ‘John the Theologian’, and that title appears in some Byzantine manuscripts of Revelation, but not in manuscripts of the Gospel.

    At one time in its existence, his paranormal writing was called the Apocalypse of John, but it was re-titled, ‘Revelation’ by Emperor Justinian at the second Church council of Constantinople in 553, the same council that removed all references to reincarnation from the New Testament.

    Today, the Book of Revelation is the last book of the New Testament, and Christians believe it is the record of a supernatural experience that happened to John while he was exiled in a cave on the isle of Patmos.

    That is what the Church wants you to think, but let me explain how the Sibyl’s writings came into the public forum.

    Sometime around 500 BCE she appeared before Tarquin the Proud (‘traditionally 510 BCE’), king of ancient Rome, and offered to sell him nine volumes of her perplexing prophecies later called The Mysteries of Osiris and Isis.

    Upon his refusal to pay the pricey sum of 300 gold pieces, the prophetess burned three of her writings in the palace courtyard, and then offered the remaining six books at the original price. King Tarquin again refused, and three days later the Sibyl returned and publicly burned three more of her writings.

    Once again, she demanded the original asking price for the last three books, and the king’s curiosity was aroused to the point that he purchased them at the original asking price. The Sibyl then vanished, and was never seen again (Titus Livy (Livius) also; The Records of Rome, 1868, British Library, London).

    Sibyl of Tarquin was regarded by some early Christians as a prophetic authority comparable to what they thought about Old Testament prophecies.

    It is important that you are aware of the relevant facts and some pertinent background knowledge about the Sibyl’s predictive writings.

    It was believed the Sibylline Books were ‘possessed with the spirit of divination’ and they subsequently became the ‘Bible’ of the Romans (Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, Sibyllini Libra).

    The originals perished in the fire that destroyed the Temple of Capitolinus in 83 BCE and were replaced by copies from other temples, unlike the occasion when original copies of the Old Testament were burnt and replaced by Ezra rewriting from memory (2 Edras 14:21).

    The Sibyl’s works were regarded as ‘the mouthpiece of God’ because they were believed to contain all directions needed to worship any god.

    Her prophetic literature was recognized at Rome as one of the most efficacious instruments in Roman religions and was observed and accepted by all Romans.

    The first Roman Emperor, Augustus (c. 27 BCE), directed the preparation of additional identical sets of the Sibyl’s predictions and they were ‘supplied to the Senate in Egypt and to priests in all Graecized lands’ (Funk and Wagnell’s New Standard Dictionary, Sibylline Books, 1913).

    In 12 BCE, he transferred a special ‘pontific’ collection to the Temple of Apollo on the Palatine hill in Rome and there it remained until 405. That move demonstrated the legality of the Sibylline Books as well as their immeasurable worth, and misuse of her principles was punishable by death.

    The Sibylline Books held more religious influence in the Roman Empire than the Hebrew Old Testament, a sacred writing shared by Judaism and Christianity.

    This is generally unknown, and if made public there would be many people upset because they believe that up until the time of the arrival of the New Testament, the Old Testament was the only book used in the ancient religious world.

    Except for a few passages in Aramaic, the Old Testament was written originally in Hebrew during the period from 398 BCE to 100 BCE, and Christianity believes that it was primary religious book of the time.

  • Lou

    Tony Palmer, the charismatic young preacher who enjoyed a friendship with Pope Francis, has apparently died in a motorcycle accident,” Kathy Schiffer reported….
    The word that seems to annoy me is the word “apparently” Doesn’t is bother anyone else? either your dead or your not….
    Can someone tell me a fact……

    • STL

      Lou: Apparently, could just be the Spirit of Elijah, resurrection in 3 days?

      • suez

        😉 lol

  • STL

    Just hold on there! Just maybe the Anti Christ our Catholic Pope will resurrect him, then we will have the False Prophet as he stated he’s the Spirit of Elijah?

    • suez

      Did the accident produce a head wound???

      • STL

        Suez: I was talking about the False Prophet. possibly be Bishop Palmer, he believe he was the Spirit of Elijah, which would fulfilled the Jewish Prophecy that Elijah will tell the jews who the real Messiah is?

        But the Antichrist, he will have a head wound and temporary die.

        And when most people have motorcycle accidents most of the time it causes a head wound.LOL

        Someone will be the False Prophet with the Antichrist and if they will follow jewish tradition, Elijah has to appear first announcing the Messiah as a world leader. Mal. 4:5

        • STL: How dumb are you? The Elijah prophecy was fulfilled ages ago by John the Baptist. Is Elijah mentioned afterward? If so then prove it :mrgreen:

          • mike

            he is mentioned again.. malachi 4

          • STL

            MRH: Now your showing your intelligents LOL. Stating how dumb are you? Elijah prophecy was fulfilled ages ago by John the Baptist. Is elijah mentioned afterward? If so then prove it?

            So you want the evidence that will prove your a dumb ass?

            Your explaining that John the Baptist to be Elijah. Then your accepting Jewish Tradition, of Kabbalah of reincarnation.

            As in Daniel 12- even if John the Baptist were literally the person of Elijah, it would be a resurrection. To say otherwise is to force one’s preconcieved view of reincarnation on Scriptures.

            The Bible KJV was clear that John the Baptist is given this designation because he came in the “Spirit and Power of Elijah” as in Luke 1:17. Not because he was literal sense, Elijah fulfilled that role in the Old Testament and will again in the future, see Rev. 11.

            And Elijah himself appearred at the Transfiguration, as John was still alive, I guess you can not be two people the same time.

            So by Mal. 4:5 will appear to the jews to proclaim Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Also in John 1: 19-23 as John the Baptist denied being he was Elijah.

            So by your words that Elijah appearred as John the Baptist, you just made John the Baptist into a liar.

            So again, who is the dumb ass?

            Hey Fool! i know you will not have a response, so this conversation is closed?

          • Brenda Murphy

            It will be in the spirit of Elijah, that the preaching will begin at the tribulation period. Not Elijah, himself. He will still be in heaven with God, I believe. Just my opinion.

          • “It will be in the spirit of Elijah”

            @Brenda: So the question is, what does that mean? Could it be implying holiness? After all, Elijah was a prophet of God, was he not? And that makes him a holy man of God? Anyway, Elijah is I guess one of those mysteries which we will have to wait for the answer at Christs return? 😉

        • “And Elijah himself appearred at the Transfiguration, as John was still alive, I guess you can not be two people the same time.”

          @STL: According to scripture, it was simply a vision, not physical reality 😉

          Mat 17:9 KJV – And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

          Lexicon :: Strong’s G3705 – horama
          that which is seen, spectacle
          a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision
          http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3705&t=KJV

          • STL

            MRH: your still a Psychotic dumb ass?

          • STL: No, you can’t read your bible properly :mrgreen:

    • STL: I’m afraid you lose this prophetic round :mrgreen:

      • STL

        MRH: I did not gain anything or lost anything, since you believe its a game to you?

        • STL: Yes, you lost your false fantasy Elijah 😆

          • STL

            MRH: Did you think of that rude comment from your god Satan?

          • STL

            MRH: When are you going to grow up, stop acting as a child? Did not your parents ever teach you how to act like a grown up? To you ever thing is a childish games.

      • STL

        MRH: OOPS! John the Baptist was dead already at the Tranfiguration.

    • carol

      The pope is not the Anti- Christ he is the False Prophet he will have 3 frogs come out of his mouth and they are devils he works with the Anti -christ —-satan aways uses a counterfeit he always copies God (the devil copies God).– People listen to the pope look on the internet it says so he is the only Jesuit preist a priest teaches. He is the last pope known as Peter the Roman – Rome is evil and sits on the 7 hills as Gods word says Rome is the Harlot from the book of Revelations – The Anti- christ is someone differet God knows who he is and everyone that doesnt know the truth will believe him if not awake . He will fool even the elect i not awake as it says in GODS word. Those who are looking and listening will know who the Anti-chirist is he will not be able to fool everyone thats awake his speach will give him away all you have to do is listen to what comes out of his mouth and the people who will be worshiping him the Anti- christ – we have to be awake and not sleep. Amen

      • “Those who are looking and listening will know who the Anti-chirist is he will not be able to fool everyone thats awake his speach will give him away all you have to do is listen to what comes out of his mouth and the people who will be worshiping him the Anti- christ – we have to be awake and not sleep”

        @Carol: Obama is the AC, and Francis the FP, and they are a duo.. the proof is in the pudding 😉

        • carol

          Obama is preped to bring in the New world Oder Its here -and the One One World Relegion by Frances its here– Henry Kissenger said this in his News Artical about Obama being Preped- If you read in Ezekiel the Anti- Christ has no affection for women he is not married and no kids –Obama is married with kids and— if Obama is gay and Married to a Man that still doesnt count –He cant be a married. The Anti- Christ is coming from Brussels Belgium- not the White House – He will be a charmmer and people will be hanging all over him –He will say the world is in a big mess –but I can fix everything trust me I will take care of you Thats when the Mark of the Beast comes in if you dont get it durning the peace years which will be voluntary -and then the last 4 years you will be made to get the Mark – and if you dont take the Mark you will be killed – Beheaded like the muslims like to do . Without the Mark you wont be able to buy food or water or anything—- Obama is nothing even close to the evil — Foul stenchy man that the Anti- Christ will be — the AC is alot worse than Obama especially the last 4 years when he makes you take the Mark or kills you because you dont take it . He kills (people) God is in control we are told not to fear cause these things must be they are saying the colaspe is coming with everything especially the food the thousands of people coming across the border are draining the food supply –the medical supplies –they are being taken to Fema Camps and are trying to buy up all the food to feed these people this is happening cause -Obama wants it to happen this is his plan to destroy our system here and he will do it hes doing it now – This I believe will bring in the Anti- Christ remember it will all be a kotic mess here- riots -violence like never before -marshal law – burning cars like you see on TV so much death will be here – If you know someone that doesnt know Jesus Christ tell them about Jesus cause they dont want to be left here and they want to go Heaven it will be so much more at peace and the most important is Jesus died so we dont have to suffer that terriable time of violence Jesus is Coming stay awake and dont be tied to this failing world Jesus has a new Home waiting for everyone that is looking for him and who are Saved.Amen Jesus showed me the Rapture it is very real just as sure as the air we all breathe is real and the water we drink it will happen so fast in the twinkling of an eye and like a tonado spins thats powerful too no one can stop the Rapture Amen Come LORD COME:)

          • @Carol: Prove every thing you claim with scripture.. if you can 😉

            P.S. You obviously don’t know Obama that well I’m afraid 🙁

            http://youtu.be/LvYfUbuHLEY

  • STL

    The Reporter Kathy Schiffer is with Lifenews.com of the Vatican Order.

  • STL

    I check out Lifenews.com but Kathy Schiffer is not a reporter for them, so why would it say she’s a reporter for lifenews.com?

  • STL

    Where does this Kathy Schiffer work at. It said, she works for: Seasons of Grace, but not a reporter for them, then it says Patheos Press. but she’s not there. So who she working for?

    • Ian Greenwood

      YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT

      AS FOR THE WRITINGS ATTRIBUTED TO PAUL

      The Encyclopedia Biblica states categorically:

      “With respect to the Canonical Pauline Epistles, none of them are by Paul.

      They are all, without distinction, pseudographia (false writings). The group (ten epistles) bears obvious marks of a certain unity, of having originated in one circle, at one time, in one environment, but not of unity of authorship” (Encyclopedia Biblica III pg. 3625-26).

      Jesus Christ is a religious assumption, a very different story off the history of Christian origins

      The Gospels are ‘utopian literature’, an ancient form of unhistorical creative writing that had its model earlier in Plato’s Republic (427-347 BCE).

      The Church admits that the Epistles of Paul are forgeries, saying,

      “Even the genuine Epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of their authors”
      (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vii, p. 645).

      Likewise, St Jerome (d. 420) declared that the Acts of the Apostles, the fifth book of the New Testament, was also “falsely written” (“The Letters of Jerome”, Library of the Fathers, Oxford Movement, 1833-45, vol. v, p. 445).

      A TOTAL MYTH – A FRAUD

      The whole of Christianity is a myth, peddled by strange men with paedophilic tendencies wearing women’s dresses. Those people, who so far have not been seriously confronted with the facts of history, will sometimes be shocked at how human the course of events was in the development of the Christian Church.

      The records of history reveal that the sprouting papal hierarchy was so concerned that the general populace would learn that the Book of Revelation was a Christianized version of one of the Sibylline Books that in 405, the now-called bishop of Rome ordered Roman general Flavius Stilicho ‘to burn as many copies that he could find’ (Funk and Wagnell’s New Standard Dictionary, ‘Sibylline Books’, Also; Encyclopedia of the Roman Empire, Matthew Bunson, 1994, p. 396).

      This act reveals a premeditated attempt to conceal facts about the development of Christian literature that the Council is nothing more than an inexhaustible collection of priestly perversions of fact and truth that should not be taken seriously by anybody.

      The entire substance of the canonical Book of Revelation was in existence and used by Roman religionists centuries before the commencement of the Christian era.

      Like the primary version of the writing that later became the Gospel of John, the Book of Revelation never originally recorded the name of Jesus Christ nor any personages known in the Christian story today.

      Comparisons between the Sibyl’s writing and the canonical Book of Revelation reveal that the first six verses in today’s version of the Book of Revelation are fabricated justifications and the Sibyl’s narratives began at verse number seven in the first chapter. Other interpolations were intermingled in various positions throughout her flowing prose and the restructured fabrication is now official to Christianity.

      • Brenda Murphy

        Tell all that to God, when you are standing before him some day….

    • Ian Greenwood

      THE COMPLETE IGNORANCE AND SILLY CHILDISH REMARKS ON THIS THREAD IS AMAZXING — IT SEEMS THAT 99% HAVEN’T A BLOODY CLUE WHAT THEY BELIEVE OR EVEN HOW CHRISTIANITY WAS INVENTED AND BY WHOM

      Regarded as Fraudsters Even in the 2nd Century:

      ”Clearly the Christians have used … myths … in fabricating the story of Jesus’ birth’…
      It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction.”
      – Celsus (On The True Doctrine, c 178 AD)

      The Evolving Legend
      How the God-man is Made and Remade
      http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html

      • Brenda Murphy

        I’d say old Celsus is a believer by now…

    • Probably, but who knows? The elite delete whom they choose 😉

      • STL

        MRH: at least one thing you sure do not know much of anything, are you still hiding in your little apartment with your cat, or did your cat get tired of you to and ran off?

  • engineer

    NTEB STAFF:
    You know, there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed on this forum. For ONE, when one makes a comment on FACEBOOK, it shows up on this WEBSITE. I have no problem with that, so why can’t comments POSTED HERE on this site be read on FACEBOOK. If I want to address someones comment here that CAME FROM FACEBOOK, You can’t. It should work both ways. Some people don’t LIKE USING FACEBOOK AND if your addressing a post from there, That’s poasted here. YOU CAN’T. They won’t see it. That’s why I don’t post as much on this site BECAUSE I don’t like to use FACEBOOK.

    • STL

      Engineer: I do not know how you feel about Face book but to me its the devils playground.

      • Brenda Murphy

        The whole world is the devil’s playground….

  • kobzar

    i dont attend a church or belong to any official sanctioned church. i read the kjv bible and only believe in Jesus Christ and his mission on the cross. i am born again and saved and NOBODY can take me out of His hand no matter how hard they try-its impossible for any human being to try to unconvert me and i am invincible and will be with Jesus Christ for eternity. once you belong to a church like Sevent Day adventist, Roman Catholic,or presbyterian etc… you are following a man made system and Christ doesnt want that and orders you to come out of those systems! i have personally seen priests or heads of these entities visibly upset and seething because they CAN’T control me or have power over me!
    therefore come out of those systems and nobody will be able to ENSLAVE YOU!

    • God uses evil to destroy evil 😉

      • STL

        MRH: Is that why God is using you, fighting evil with evil?

  • kobzar

    isnt the putting up of markers at the MH17 sites where bodies were found sort of similar as to how bodies of the Gog Magog war will mark the finding of bodies when they TRY to attack the apple of GOD’S eye-ISRAEL!
    We must be at the very cusp of that Gog Magog War, there is a whole littany of things happening now and with greater speed for some reason!

    • kobzar

      Extreme sanctions must now be set forth against that guy!! There is no other way and in fact it may ALREADY be much too too late! but like i always say its never too late and anything is possible!

  • kobzar

    i feel russia is on the verge of doing something big! i think its going to get really bad very soon! Different tactics are being used, Hook and bait is one of his favorites! Delay and DO then delay with a couple of tweaks and twists. But GOD will have the victory when Gog and Magog make that hook in the jaw move!

  • chris m

    Even though tony palmer did not represent my views about unity with the roman catholic church , im saddened to see the end of a mans life……..any man……because we are all born into this world as little blank slates , with no ideas about anything , and no choice about whether we are born in a chinese body , an english body , a dark skinned body or a red skinned body , and have no say in the culture we would be birthed into. I believe Tony palmer possibly started out with good honourable intentions of unity , yet his own personal goal of unity aused him to lose sight of spiritual integrity.
    Jesus never promised peace. He said “think not that I have come to bring peace. I have come to bring a sword” , and said that a mans enemies would be the members of his own household , because Truth divides.
    This is why the roman catholic church has tortured and murdered 68 million Christian brothers and sisters throughout the ages.
    All true Christians should seek unity , but according to Gods word , the roman catholic church are not christians , but are pagan idolators who pray to mary , pray to the dead , to relics , to saints , create fantasy beliefs of purgatory , indulgences , the sinlessness of mary , the assumption of mary , on and on and on it goes , and they are now headed by a Jesuit , who takes his orders from the head jesuit aka the black pope , and despite how genuine pope francis may seem in that video , the fact that he has signed the “jesuit extreme oath of induction” , swearing to smash babies heads against the wall , and rip open mothers stomachs , boiling , flaying , burning etc……..proves irrefutably that neither the pope , nor the system of traditions he presides and pontificates over , are connected to Jesus Christ , who told us ” love your neighbour as yourself”.
    What part of killing 68 million Christians fulfils Christs mandate to ” love your neighbour as yourself” ?
    Tony palmer tried to align himself with a wolf , believing that the wolf was actually a lamb. I believe he was sincere , but the fact is he was sincerely wrong , and I hope that God may have mercy on His soul. I will not judge the man because I am not the Judge , and am just a recipient of the unmerited grace of God , in order that I would be a signpost that points to one thing…………Jesus Christ.
    I pray for Tony palmers family , and ask Almighty God to comfort them in the way that only He knows.
    We wrestle not with flesh and blood. Our battle is against systematic ideaologies of lies and the spiritual darkness that besieges mankind in every country on this earth.
    The truth will prevail because Christ said ” I will build MY church , and the gates of hell will not prevail against it ”
    Even if it is all a big fantastic lie , as someone up there suggested , I will still have lived my life with integrity , meeting challenges , testing my limits , enjoying my life in service to God , and I will have lost nothing.
    However , if that “fantastic lie” turns out to indeed be true , you will have thrown your life away……not just in this world , but also in the next.

    • STL

      Hugo: Very few religions follow after the KJV Bible, not just the Catholics?

    • Ruach

      @ Hugo Juan

      You:

      “The roman catholic church hates the king james bible version I wonder why?”

      The answer comes from the RCC itself …

      “The authority of the (catholic) church could therefore NOT BE BOUND TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE SCRIPTURES, because the (catholic)Church had changed…the Sabbath into Sunday, NOT BY COMMAND OF CHRIST, but by … IT’S OWN AUTHORITY.”

      -Canon and Tradition, p. 263

      The catholic church is BABYLONIAN!

      It’s “OWN AUTHORITY” is Lucifer!

      • Brenda Murphy

        Ruach means Holy Spirit… Oh, why didn’t you just use God as your name, then? lol
        🙁 🙄

  • kobzar

    the RC church tried to expunge the KJV bible from existence

    • Watch and learn.. the evil system is now here 😯

  • kobzar

    believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved and going to heaven! there isnt any other way to get to heaven!

  • kobzar

    very hard hard sanctions should be put into play now!

  • DW

    *blech!* Did this guy wear enough makeup? Adios, Sodomite Sinbad.

    • Annabel

      Jesus Christ—as a matter of history–established a Church, not a book, to be the foundation of the Christian Faith. What is very clear historically is that Jesus established a kingdom with a hierarchy and authority to speak for him (see Lk. 20:29-32, Mt. 10:40, 28:18-20). It was members of this Kingdom—the Church—that would write the Scripture, preserve its many texts and eventually canonize it.

      II Thess. 2:15:
      “So then, brethren, brethren, stand firm and hold to the “traditions” you have been taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

      The Scripture is remarkably plain in teaching oral Tradition to be just as much the word of God as is Scripture.

      For 1,500 years, Christianity saw just a few schisms
      (the Monophysites, Nestorians, the Orthodox, and a very few others). Now in just 480 years we have this? I hardly think that when Jesus prophesied there would be “one shepherd and one fold” in Jn. 10:16, this is what he had in mind. It seems quite clear that not only is sola scriptura unreasonable and unbiblical, but it is unworkable.

      By the way, if Mary, the Mother of God, had said ‘No’ to angel Gabriel (she had a free will), we would all be in hell now and there would be no salvation. Just to remind everyone about this ‘little’ fact.

      • watchman48

        [By the way, if Mary, the Mother of God, had said ‘No’ to angel Gabriel (she had a free will), we would all be in hell now and there would be no salvation. Just to remind everyone about this ‘little’ fact.]

        I certainly do rebuke that idea… So in saying this you are telling us that God would not have been capable of bringing His plan of salvation to fruition… That is totally preposterous.

      • Ort

        Annabel—–Wow! Really? The devil, who is the most powerful of the angels (fallen or otherwise) can’t derail God’s plan. But you say a mere human woman could, simply by saying “no”????
        Where do you come up with this twisted exegesis of scripture?
        You need to flee the Babylonian Mystery Religion, aka, the Roman Catholic “church”. It has put your soul in eternal peril. It has also sent just as many people to hell as buddhism, Hinduism, and islam.

      • Brenda Murphy

        That’s the craziest thing I ever heard!

    • Ruach

      @ Little Joe

      Well said !

      You and I are of like-mind.

      Sadly, catholics have no clue to the iniquity (LAWLESSNESS) of the Babylonian RCC.

      Equally sad is that MOST Protestants don’t either.

      I belong to NO CHURCH !

      I am engrafted … as a Natsarim … into the House of Israel !

    • suez

      @Little Joe! Amen Brother!!!

    • Brenda Murphy

      Amen!

      If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…it’s a duck!

      You will know them by their fruits.

      Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
      Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
      Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
      Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
      Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
      Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
      Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

  • kobzar

    Jesus died for all humanity so humanity wouldnt have to go to the lake of fire!

  • kobzar

    once gog magog makes the move into Israel then it will be magog bodies with markers planted besides the bodies!

  • kobzar

    people were warned a few days before the bombing would begin in gaza!

  • Jay

    It seems to me that with over 20 thousand Protestant sects that every Protestant makes up their own religion. So truth is relative, you all prove it every time you claim to have the truth and denounce all others. In time you will all be agnostics. You all claim to follow the Bible but you all have different interpretations of the text. Protestantism has failed miserably especially in its stronghold of the US. Come join the agnostic movement we at least were honest and don’t claim to know everything.

    • Brenda Murphy

      A ‘church’ or aka-organization- doesn’t save you, ONLY the precious blood of Jesus Christ.
      PRAISE THE LORD! 🙂

    • “Roman Catholic is the only one true Church of Jesus Christ”

      @MaAi Ai: Not according to the bible, and it’s crystal clear that Jesus alone is the only salvation road! Not following religious institutions, of which are many nowadays.

      P.S. The scriptures interpret themselves, if one has the Spirit within 🙂

      • Annabel

        Jesus established a Church, not a book, to be the foundation of the Christian Faith. What is very clear historically is that Jesus established a kingdom with a hierarchy and authority to speak for him (see Lk. 20:29-32, Mt. 10:40, 28:18-20). It was members of this Kingdom—the Church—that would write the Scripture, preserve its many texts and eventually canonize it.

        II Thess. 2:15:
        “So then, brethren, brethren, stand firm and hold to the “traditions” you have been taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

        The Scripture is remarkably plain in teaching oral Tradition to be just as much the word of God as is Scripture.

      • “Jesus established a Church, not a book, to be the foundation of the Christian Faith”

        @Annabel: The church Jesus established is a spiritual kingdom, not of this world. And all true believers are members of it 🙂

        Luk 17:20 KJV – And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

        Jhn 18:36 KJV – Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

        Rom 14:17 KJV – For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

        1Co 15:24 KJV – Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

        Col 1:13 KJV – Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

        Jas 2:5 KJV – Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

        2Pe 1:11 KJV – For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

        P.S. Run, don’t walk from the evil deceptive religious churches 🙂

    • Brenda Murphy

      I DO NOT worship an organization—I worship God in spirit and in truth, for he seeks such to worship so.

      I believe in Jesus Christ, the Holy Lamb, without spot or blemish, that died so that we might be saved.
      I believe that he died and rose again the third day, and that he is on the right hand of God the Father.
      I believe that he will come back for his own, some day, and we will be like him, fashioned with a glorious body, never to die again.
      Praise the Lord! Amen!

    • Brenda Murphy

      Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
      Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
      Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
      Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
      Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

      Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
      Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

  • Peter Pearson

    Was it REALLY necessary to label this man a heretic? He’s dead for goodness sake and being right will not get you closer to God, but being compassionate and merciful might. Try it.

  • Fred Jones

    I DISAGREE with the following statement from this article:

    “Tony’s deluded vision of seeing Christians ‘coming home to Rome’ will also die with him.”

    The DEVIL will not stop until he is cast into the bottomless pit. I’m sure someone will be taking Tony Palmer’s place shortly.

    “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should DECEIVE the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.” (Revelation 20:3)

    • “Tongues is languae you were not taught my friend but become fluent in by Holy intervention… and those around under the Spirit able to UNDERSTAND the tongues will hear it in their native language

      @Little Joe: Sorry, but that’s not necessarily true by the bible 🙁

      1Co 13:1 KJV – Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

      1Co 14:2, 6, 9, 13-14, 16, 19, 23, 39 KJV – For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. … Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? … So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. … Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. … Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? … Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. … If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? … Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

      P.S. The Acts Pentecost event was pure phenomena, especially considering the tongues of fire upon the disciples heads. However there is no guarantee that tongues would be understood in church meetings afterward (all by chance), and the interpretation game is ridiculously all wrong.. but another topic issue 😉

    • Annabel

      Jesus Christ established a Church, not a book, to be the foundation of the Christian Faith. What is very clear historically is that Jesus established a kingdom with a hierarchy and authority to speak for him (see Lk. 20:29-32, Mt. 10:40, 28:18-20). It was members of this Kingdom—the Church—that would write the Scripture, preserve its many texts and eventually canonize it.

      II Thess. 2:15:
      “So then, brethren, brethren, stand firm and hold to the “traditions” you have been taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

      The Scripture is remarkably plain in teaching oral Tradition to be just as much the word of God as is Scripture.

      If Mary, the Mother of God, had said ‘No’ to angel Gabriel (she had a free will), we would all be in hell now and there would be no salvation. Also, all the founders of the protestant denominations – Luther, Calvin, Zwingli had Mary in high regard until the end of their lives – something they forget to teach you at your religion classes.

  • Hefty P

    Though I do not believe that the papacy is carrying on the tradition of Peter, the Bible does discuss such a thing as rules, pertaining a church heirarchy, in other words, organized religion.

    My beliefs are closest to old school Southern Baptist. I am Dispensationist, Calvinist, not a strict Cessationist. I favor the pre-Tribulation Rapture. I learn about Jewish roots, but do not make them a gimmick, much less prerequisite to salvation, as by works.

    Anyone who follows the faith understood the description. So, the language regarding denomination does have meaning. To say otherwise possibly sets you up for ecumenism.

    • “Though I do not believe that the papacy is carrying on the tradition of Peter, the Bible does discuss such a thing as rules, pertaining a church heirarchy, in other words, organized religion”

      Any organization has to have structure or it will crumble, including religion. Likewise laws of the land are needed in society for stability. Being without rules or structure would become chaos.

      P.S. Even we need structure in our lives or we’d fall apart too 😉

      • Brenda Murphy

        Mark,
        How’s your cat? I have a bunch of cats.

        The church is the body of Christ, not a building, or organization.
        The early church met in their own houses. They went from house to house, breaking bread….studying the word of God…and getting edified, built up on the Word of God.

        Why do you think that the law is coming against us now, as meeting in houses?

        There is strength in numbers……right?

        • “How’s your cat? I have a bunch of cats .. The church is the body of Christ, not a building, or organization”

          Brenda, my feline friend is doing just fine (around 7 now, and healthy), she sleeps much (normal cat behavior), bed, couch, floor, boxes, etc. Then afterward she comes to pester me at my desk while I’m trying to work. ambling back and forth in front of my PC monitor, rubbing her head on varied things. And if I try to use my PC mouse, she gently nips at my hand. So I’ve learned to attend unto her temporary attention demands.

          Often she she sprawls out on my desk after petting session over, using my mouse or keyboard as a pillow, flapping her tail on my keys, makes it hard to work. Oddly she loves hard back and tail slaps, she can’t get enough. Honestly, 1 cat is enough for me (maintenance aspect; litter, food, water, etc.. I use 2 towers), but please do enjoy your feline bunch 😉

          Regarding the church (body of Christ), it is but a spiritual entity (invisible), nothing more nor less. We (members) are the holy temple now (kingdom) and the power of God upon earth.. if we exercise it that is. Sadly the majority of Christendom has dropped the holy gifts (nine manifestations of the Spirit), claiming they are obsolete 🙁

          The only reason for fellowship is to strengthen our faith, plus common friendship bonding. Like with secular orders, only of holy flock. But some are solitary (vagabonds) due to life circumstances or interests. Aside from the weekly fellowship meeting, I’m pretty much a home body type, plus my Aspergers condition. Latter issue greatly impacts social interaction, and frequently causes complications 🙁

          P.S. The new wicked government is now trying hard to destroy Gods very presence upon earth, which is why all the persecution and corruption in these latter dark times. And the negative effects will intensify greatly during tribulation 😯 Agreed?

          • Brenda Murphy

            What you say is pretty good, we are the body of Christ here on the earth…but the kingdom has yet to come……
            thy kingdom come, thy will be done…..

            Your cat sounds like she loves you.

            I keep all mine outside, where they can keep the rodent populace down. lol

            I feed them, though. 🙂

            When Christ sets up His kingdom in the millennial reign, then it will be here on the earth.

            Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

          • “What you say is pretty good, we are the body of Christ here on the earth…but the kingdom has yet to come”

            Brenda, according to scripture, the ‘spiritual’ kingdom of God has already come 😉

            Jhn 3:3 KJV – Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

            Act 28:31 KJV – Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

            Rom 14:17 KJV – For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

            1Co 4:20 KJV – For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

            P.S. The kingdom and church and body are the same spiritual thing, just different terminology used 🙂

          • Brenda, regarding my cat, she used to be indoor/outdoor, until a costly animal bite incident otherwise decided matters. Since then she is strictly indoors, and all the better.. no fleas either 😉

            Actually in the past I always worried when she would leave, and often she wouldn’t return home till next morning, meowing at my bedroom window. One time she didn’t return for several days, but not due to romping. Rather she had climbed into my bed drawer unawares, and got herself kind of stuck there. I kept hearing a soft meow, but couldn’t locate source inside house or outside. After I pulled out one of my drawers, I found her, after she climbed into the other drawer. Cat’s do weird things sometimes 😆

            P.S. I don’t know about you folks (?), but I HATE summer weather, even if mild temperatures 🙁

            No AC just several fans, which without I’d die sick from the heat. In fact my heat tolerance is quite low, 75′ requires fans, and 80′ onward intolerable 😯

            Anyway, it’s presently 86′ outside and 78′ inside (heat wave), and even with fans blasting it’s nearly intolerable :(:( Seems ice water helps some though 🙂

            Oh, and unlike me, my cat loves the hot indoor weather, but hates the fans blasting at her 😆

          • Brenda Murphy

            Mark,
            That was a good laugh~
            cats are comical.

            It is hot here, but been nice for a few days.
            I always kept a wet bandana around my neck. It seems to help.
            Plenty of cold water will keep you from getting dehydrated. Gatorade is good for rehydrating to. Restores the salt that you lose from sweating.
            I’m an old farm girl, that’s how I know to survive. lol

          • “Mark, That was a good laugh~ cats are comical.

            It is hot here, but been nice for a few days.
            wet bandana around my neck.
            Plenty of cold water
            Gatorade is good for rehydrating to.”

            Brenda, they definitely are comical. Sometimes I call her a lovable pest. Did you ever see the pic of my cat?

            Regarding hot weather, I’m enduring heat wave as best I can. I thought about a wet towel, except I don’t like getting all wet and sticky sweaty. Possibly an ice pack, except wouldn’t last long. I’ve used Gatorade before, but too much sugar, makes me jittery. However if hot trend continues, I may reconsider things. Anyway, yesterdays temp jumped to 90′ out, and 81′ in. And today’s prediction is 91′ out. And 10 day prediction is hot too 🙁

          • Brenda Murphy

            @ Mark–
            Well, if all else fails, get you a kiddie pool and fill it with cool water, or there’s the bathtub…. lol
            I take a cool shower and keep my hair wet. Get you a spray bottle, look up tips on internet…since you like research, lol. Just sayin’

            Ron said –get an old air conditioner that doesn’t work, and he could tell you how to fix it, he’s a retired hvac man, too, he worked at that, after he retired from the mines. 🙂

          • “Well, if all else fails, get you a kiddie pool and fill it with cool water .. get an old air conditioner that doesn’t work”

            @Brenda: Interesting idea, except where would I put the pool? I have no back or front yard, just a small parking lot. I live in a studio apartment unit built into a business complex, not in a residential area.

            As for AC idea, I tried that plan last year, but complications prevailed. The portable AC was ineffective plus costly ($500), and also bothered neighbors with window exhaust aspect. So after summer ended I returned unit. And plus my windows are narrow sliding type, not suitable for common window AC units. Plus unacceptable with neighbors.

            Anyway, I’ll probably just drive to local AC public building if things become unbearable. One store has a lounge area to chill out in, which I used last year. Also where I met the fellowship leader by chance or divine plan? Plus we have a community center nearby, and so I do have varied options.

          • Brenda Murphy

            OK, stay cool! 🙂

    • Tony

      Hefty P, you seem like a reasonable person to talk with. I’m Catholic. Would you like to go to CARm.org to discuss your beliefs? CARM is a Protestant message board.

    • Ruach

      @ Ian Alexander Hicks

      It’s NOT my intention to disagree with you at all…

      It’s my intention only to share historical fact.

      As you read keep in mind that for the first 300 years believers “congregated/assembled” IN THEIR HOMES.

      Mithra-worshipper Constantine OUTLAWED home assemblies and FORCED believers to a PUBLIC BUILDING that was a place of PAGAN WORSHIP … and was controlled by the State.

      Those who refused either ran or were killed!

      NOWHERE in the Bible are we told to go to “church”!

      We are told … “Not forsaking the ASSEMBLING of ourselves together…”

      This is in the context of HOME assemblies … NOT church’s!

      “““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““

      A word about the word “church”:

      In many bible-versions, Matthew 16:18 is the FIRST passage that contains the word “church”.

      “Matthew 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. ”

      Many people have been caused to THINK that Yahushua spoke about the formation of a religious organisation … a “church”.

      But, things are not always what they are commonly thought to be.

      History tells us what the word “church” in actual fact points to.

      The word “church” comes from an old Greek phrase which meant “the Lord’s house”.

      It is IMPORTANT to find out WHO used that Greek term, and especially … WHICH “lord” they used it as a reference to.

      The word “church” is NOT a translation of the NT Greek noun ekklêsia.

      And that it is NOT connected to the saints or to New Testament times but refers to something altogether different… something that arose LATER when the saints were no longer on the scene.

      (“Saints” refers to those who received the Holy Spirit in the first century.)

      Some bible-translations do not use the word “church”.

      For instance Tyndale in his 1525 translation used it only twice, in both cases as a reference to BUILDINGS that were used for IDOL WORSHIP…

      Acts 14:13 – Then Iupiters Preste which dwelt before their cite brought oxe and garlondes vnto the churche porche and wolde have done sacrifise with the people. (TYN)

      Acts 19:37 – For ye have brought hyther these me[n] whiche are nether robbers of churches nor yet despisers of youre goddes. (TYN)

      Again, the above-quoted 1525 Tyndale translation uses the word “church” only in these two passages, both of which refer to idol temples.

      When it comes to the Greek word ekklêsia …he rendered it as “congregation” (using the spelling congregacion).

      In the same way, a number of later translations do not contain the word “church” but render ekklêsia as “assembly” or “congregation”.

      The word “church” began to come into use in the English language in the Middle Ages… some time before the 12th century.

      The 1395 Wycliffe translation used the word “church” (chirche)… But, the 1525 Tyndale version did not use it.

      Tyndale translated ekklêsia PROPERLY … as “congregacion”.

      As was mentioned earlier, he used the word “church” (churche) – two times, in Acts 14:13 and 19:37 which both refer to buildings connected to idol-worship.

      The roots of the word “church” are as follows:

      It comes via the Middle English chirche …from the Old English cirice.

      It is said that cirice in its turn came from the first word in the old Greek phrase kuriakê oikia which meant “the Lord’s house”.

      So … the origin and evolution of the word “church” is as follows:

      Old Greek kuriakê [oikia] (“lord’s [house]”) → Old English cirice → Middle English chirche → “church”

      That might sound fine at first, but let us analyse the phrase kuriakê oikia in more depth, in order to see ‘WHAT’ and ‘WHOM’ it in actual FACT pointed to.

      Some writers have said that the Greek phrase kuriakê oikia “has been in consistent use since the 300s”.

      That could be, but then one must ask this question:

      The religious organisation that the Roman emperor Constantine de facto founded in the 300s, and of which the phrase kuriakê oikia then was used …

      WHICH kurios (“lord”) did it really serve?

      It is good to know that all the way to his death…Constantine REMAINED a servant of the lord Mithras (Mithra) the SUN-god!

      And … he FORCED people to worship Mithras.

      One of Constantine’s last acts was to uphold the rights of the priests of Mithras.

      And yes… in those days Mithras-worship was given a new “make-up”… so that people were caused to THINK that it was connected to Yahushua and the Bible.

      The point is … the phrase kuriakê oikia, “lord’s house”, which “has been in consistent use since the 300s”, actually refers to the house of the lord Mithras – Sol Mithras Deus Invictus.

      In other words:

      Mithras the sun-god is the lord (kurios, whence the phrase kuriakê oikia) whom emperor Constantine and his religious organisation (RCC) caused people to serve… under the pretence that it all was “Christianity”.

      And then… Mithras is just another name for the “sun-god” who was also known as Baal.

      Note: The word baal meant “lord”.

      Those who know a bit more about the true meaning of certain religious symbols, can find and recognize MANY Mithras-related symbols in an average “house of the lord” – (house of Baal) – that has been built during the past few centuries…

      There’s a 501(c)3 State controlled … SUNday worshiping… Christmas… Easter… St. Valentines Day… Halloween… “CHURCH” on about every corner these days!

      So … the lord (kurios) who is connected to the Catholic phrase kuriakê oikia which is the ORIGIN of the word “church” … is the lord Mithras !

      And he is not Yahushua Ha Mashiach.

      Home assemblies … that’s what you want!

    • Ruach

      The pope is Not the successor of Peter the Apostle!

      The pope is the successor of Simon Magus of Acts 8!

      Magus is Satan’s counterfeit to Peter.

      Satan counterfeits YHVH and there is a thread of this counterfeit “mirroring” running through the Bible and I can prove it.

      You better learn the difference between the True church and the FALSE church.

      Babylonian “fathers” will fill you full of lies.

      Catholics are the ONLY ones that teach the pope is successor to Peter.

      Why is that?

      Here … educate yourself YOURSELF ! :

      Simon Peter versus Simon the Sorcerer or St. Peter Meets the Competition!!

      http://www.biblepages.net/hg06.htm

    • Ort

      GOD and GOD ONLY is referred to as “The Rock” in scripture. The word used for Peter meant “little stone”. Jesus isThe a Rock on which His church was founded. God never founded anything upon sinful, mortal men.
      God alone is The Rock! Do not twist scripture.

  • Fred Jones

    Jesus said, “Come out of Babylon!” Tony’s edict, “Return!!”

    Elijah called the people to reject Baal and his worship system. Israel had united YHWH and Baal worship through idolatry and so-called “tolerance”. This guy was doing the opposite of the real Elijah!

    • Annabel

      On what grounds do you, all protestants, keep insulting the catholic church and ignoring the fact that for example the Orthodox church, the second largest Christian church after Catholicism has the same doctrine, same number of books in the bible, the same transubstation of the body and blood of Christ, same confessions by priests, as the Catholics. Do you realise that? Yes, only the catholic church gets insulted! Jesus predicted this – that everyone will hate his church – just as you protestants hate the catholic church. You are only fulfilling what Jesus said will be happening to his church. Peace be with you…

      • Brenda Murphy

        Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    • Brenda Murphy

      He is real, and some day, you will have to bow to Him and eat humble pie…..but it will be to late for you then, if you do not accept him now.

    • Your great Biblical reference is from the Old Testament, Isaiah 14, proof in itself that Judaism teaches of an afterlife, a heaven and a hell. Afterlife/heaven is declared David’s place to come, Ps. 23, last verse, “And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.”

  • Ian Greenwood

    CHRISTIANITY IS A TOTAL FRAUD WAKEN UP —

    1… The New Testament, in the strictest legal and moral sense, is a forgery; every Gospel and booklet it carries is falsified; and significant passages upon which the fabric of the church and its principal dogmas were founded are fictitious narratives.

    2… Christianity originated and flourished on dishonesty, false pretence, deception, and feigned piety, and in ensuing centuries its leaders industriously engaged in the cover-up of information that exposed the real nature of clergy and their false doctrine.

    3… Church history was knowingly falsified with deliberate fabrication of a whole Christian literature, manipulated to hide the true nature of Christian beginnings; the church concealed the essence of the truth of its origins and matters where self-interest of the priesthood were concerned; and for 1700 years the Christian church has perpetrated a litany of fraud lies and deception

    AS FOR THE WRITINGS ATTRIBUTED TO PAUL

    New Catholic Encyclopedia

    The Encyclopedia Biblica states categorically:

    “With respect to the Canonical Pauline Epistles, none of them are by Paul.

    They are all, without distinction, pseudographia (false writings). The group (ten epistles) bears obvious marks of a certain unity, of having originated in one circle, at one time, in one environment, but not of unity of authorship” (Encyclopedia Biblica III pg. 3625-26).

    Jesus Christ is a religious assumption, a very different story off the history of Christian origins

    The Gospels are ‘utopian literature’, an ancient form of unhistorical creative writing that had its model earlier in Plato’s Republic (427-347 BCE).

    The Church admits that the Epistles of Paul are forgeries, saying,
    “Even the genuine Epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of their authors”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vii, p. 645).

    Likewise, St Jerome (d. 420) declared that the Acts of the Apostles, the fifth book of the New Testament, was also “falsely written” (“The Letters of Jerome”, Library of the Fathers, Oxford Movement, 1833-45, vol. v, p. 445).

    • Brenda Murphy

      How blind you are!
      But the catholic religion is of an antichrist spirit.

      Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

  • Ian Greenwood

    GUILTY VERDICT HANDED DOWN BY INTERNATIONAL COURT

    http://beforeitsnews.com/celebrities/2014/07/pope-francis-found-guilty-of-child-trafficking-rape-murder-2465728.html

    Defendants Pope Francis Bergoglio, Catholic Jesuit Superior General Adolfo Pachon and Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby were found guilty of rape, torture, murder and trafficking of children.

    Five judges of the International Common Law Court of Justice in Brussels determined that the crimes occurred as recently as 2010.

    Since last March over 48 eyewitnesses have come forward to testify before prosecutors office THE INTERNATIONAL LAW COURT OF JUSTICE BELGUIM BRUSSELS about the defendants’ activities as members of the Ninth Circle Satanic Child Sacrifice Cult.

    A witness testified that they were present during Pope Francis’ meetings with the military Junta during Argentine’s 1970′s Dirty War.

    According to the witness, Pope Francis helped traffic 30,000 children of missing political prisoners into an international child exploitation ring run by an office at the Vatican.

  • Ian Greenwood

    JESUS NEVER EXISTED IT’S A TOTAL FRAUD

    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html
    I have to withdraw from making any further comments —– the common idea of Christians being idiots and suffering from a mental disorder is fully demonstrated here —— (kiddies corner)

    Every post I uploaded was knowledge and information substantiated by Enclopedia – Bible History etc. regarding the invention of Christianity —- and to have ignorant half-wits denigrate established extant manuscript knowledge for silly childish belief’s wouldn’t be worthy of any time expended by me

    • Brenda Murphy

      You would be laughable……if you weren’t so lost….. 🙁

      I’ll be praying that God will open your eyes…on second thought, maybe I’d better not, because he might open them in a way that might be pretty hard on you…..after all, he is God, and can do what ever he wants.

    • “If we are grafted into the olive tree which is Israel… should we not honor the Sabbath and keep it holy?”

      @Lisa Anthony: None can keep the Sabbath law anymore, nor was it intended to prevail past Pentecost. In fact Jesus fulfilled all holy laws including the Sabbath law (he publicly broke it), and later did the apostles continue things.

      Anyway, I’d highly suggest focusing on the church epistles, as they are the direct message unto the church. Not the Gospels, or OT, nor even Revelation. And I’d explain further, but very complex topic.

      Anyway, there is only one Sabbath reference past Acts, and it should be self explanatory? But please absorb entire passage, as it is critical in understanding Christianity 🙂

      Col 2:13-23 KJV – And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

      P.S. Throw out all church and religion games, and instead embrace bible truths 😉

      • Ruach

        @ MRH

        Hi friend…

        How ya doin’ ?

        You:

        ” Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: ”

        This passage, probably more than any other in the Bible, is interpreted by those who reject God’s festivals as confirmation that the biblical feast days are unnecessary observances. Regrettably, such reasoning is based on poor scholarship and MISLEADING TRANSLATIONS from the original wording of Paul’s instructions.

        We can better understand what Paul was saying to the NEWLY CONVERTED GENTILES who were not familiar with JEWISH Sabbath’s/Festivals, etc.

        Though it’s clear in itself ..it really helps to understand Col. 2:16-17 better when we have a deeper knowledge of YHVH’s APPOINTED TIMES.

        These are HIS APPOINTMENTS !

        And the Almighty KEEPS His appointments.

        I’ll touch on it briefly…

        The three Holy Days of YHVH are : Passover…Pentecost …Day of Atonement.

        (NOT Christmas, Easter, etc.)

        Associated with these Holy days are seven feasts…and .. “‘These are the feasts OF THE LORD,” (Lev. 23) …NOT of man and NOT of Israel.

        EACH feast is prophetic in nature … And in Col. 2:17 Paul states exactly that …”a shadow of things to come”.

        The first Passover meal was “a shadow of things to come” … The Savior dying on the cross fulfilled that prophetic feast.

        The first four feasts have already been fulfilled … in SPECTACULAR fashion too, I might add!

        Passover … Feast of Unleavened Bread … Feast of Firstfruits … Feast of Pentecost.

        Three remain to be fulfilled and certainly will be at a future date.

        The remaining three are:

        Feast of Trumpets … Day of Atonement …Feast of Tabernacles.

        Fulfilled feasts > > > WE ARE HERE > > > > Unfulfilled feasts.

        “These feasts are KEY waypoints on a roadmap in holy history. They tell the story of the main Covenant events between Yahuah and His Elect people as they occur here on the earth and down through time.

        It is a long and epic saga, with a beginning and a conclusion. The story begins back with the people Yahuah called out to Himself in Old Testament times.

        And it EXTENDS RIGHT THROUGH to the Apocalyptic events John saw in vision and wrote about in the Book of Revelation.”

        I personally believe that these APPOINTED TIMES are just as relevant for us today as the first Passover was for the Hebrews in Egypt.

        They are PROPHETIC! … How could they not be relevant today?

        A good friend of mine wrote a book on these Feasts. It took a few years to write …he painstakingly went through the Bible and quoted hundreds of verses for each feast that proves that they are prophetic indeed.

        Others have written books on the subject also.

        What I offer below …I offer with respect!

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        The apostle Paul wrote to the Colossian Christians, a gentile congregation:

        “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come …” (Colossians:2:16-17

        This passage, probably more than any other in the Bible, is interpreted by those who reject God’s festivals as confirmation that the biblical feast days are unnecessary observances. Regrettably, such reasoning is based on poor scholarship and misleading translations from the original wording of Paul’s instructions.

        From the CONTEXT we see that Paul, in this passage, IS COUNTERING A LOCAL HERESY .

        In doing so he actually CONFIRMS and EXPLAINS the value of God’s days to Christians.

        He explains that they foreshadow “things to come.”

        In other words, the focus of God’s festivals is on the future, relating God’s plan directly to the commission Christ gave His Church. So let’s examine what Paul actually says about Sabbaths, new moons and “holydays” in this verse.

        First we need to understand that Paul was confronting a heresy. FALSE TEACHERS had infiltrated the congregation in Colosse.

        These deceivers had influenced the Colossian Christians by introducing their own religious philosophy. This prompted Paul to warn the Colossians, “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit according to the tradition of men” (Colossians:2:8).

        Humanly devised tradition— NOT the revealed instructions of God’s Word in the Bible— was the problem Paul was countering.

        Earlier Yahushua had taken the Pharisees to task over the same kind of problem. They also had elevated their traditions to greater importance than God’s commandments (Mark:7:8-9, 13).

        Paul tried to keep the Colossians focused on Christ as the head of the Church (Colossians:1:18; 2:10, 19). But these false teachers were trying to persuade them to direct their worship toward angels (Colossians:2:18) and neglect their own bodies (verse 23). No such distorted ideas are taught anywhere in the Scriptures.

        Paul characterized the Colossian heresy as “empty deceit” and “the basic principles of the world” (verse 8).

        The deceivers were persuading the Colossians to ignore plain biblical instruction in favor of “traditions of men.”

        What type of deceitful regulations did Paul combat? “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle … according to the commandments and doctrines of men” (verses 21-22). The heretics advocated man-made regulations concerning physical things that “perish with the using” (verse 22).

        Why is this important? The deceivers were probably forerunners of a major religious movement, gnosticism, that flourished in the second century. They did not represent the mainstream Jewish thinking of that day, nor were they faithful to the Scriptures.

        They believed salvation could be obtained through constant contemplation of what is “spiritual”— to, as Paul explained, the “neglect” of the physical body (verse 23). It appears they believed in various orders of angels and in direct human interaction with angels.

        Paul indicates they regarded all physical things, including the human body, as decadent. He explicitly states that the heresies he was countering “concern things which perish with the using [physical things] according to the commandments and doctrines of men” (verse 22).

        Paul tells us he was COUNTERING human commandments and doctrines— not the commandments of God.

        The Colossian heretics had introduced various man-made prohibitions—such as “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” (verse 21)— against the enjoyment of physical things.

        They especially objected to the pleasurable aspects of God’s festivals —the eating and drinking aspects — that are COMMANDED in the Scriptures (Deuteronomy:12:17-18).

        When Paul wrote, “… Let no one judge you in food . . .” (verse 16), he wasn’t discussing what types of foods they should or should not eat. The Greek word brosis, translated “food,” refers not to the kinds of foods one should or should not eat, but to “the act of eating” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Food”).

        The point is that the deceivers disdained feasting — ANY TYPE of eating and drinking for enjoyment.

        Paul instructed the Colossian Christians NOT to be influenced by these false teachers’ objections to eating, drinking and rejoicing on Sabbaths, feast days and new moons.

        Perhaps we should, at this point, mention the relationship between new moons and God’s festivals…

        The dates for observing God’s festivals are determined by a lunar calendar (NOT solar). Therefore new moons — which mark the beginning of the months — are important for establishing correct festival dates. Unlike God’s Holy Days, however, new moons are not commanded observances in the Scriptures. In the Millennium the custom of making the arrival of each new moon a special occasion will AGAIN BE RESTORED (Isaiah:66:23)… KEY word “RESTORED”.

        But no biblical command exists now that requires their (New Moon) observance.

        Now back to Paul’s main point:

        The Colossian deceivers had no authority to judge or determine how the Colossians were to observe God’s festivals. That is why Paul said, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days …” (verses 16-17, King James Version).

        Notice that Paul tells them to reject false human judgment, NOT the judgment of God found in the Scriptures.

        At this point we should note another grammatical matter. The words “respect of” are translated from the Greek noun meros, which denotes a part of something. Therefore a more accurate rendering of what Paul wrote would be:

        “Let no man therefore judge you … IN ANY PART OF a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days …”

        Paul is simply being consistent. Eating or drinking is an appropriate part of Sabbath and feast-day observance according to the Scriptures.

        Therefore Paul uses meros (“part”) to cover all parts or aspects of God’s Holy Days that these HERETICS might condemn or criticize.

        NOTHING in this passage even suggests that God abolished His Sabbaths or Holy Days, nor authorized Paul to do so!

        Succumbing to the judgmental influence of those early gnostic heretics IS what Paul condemns, NOT the observance of Sabbaths and feast days.

        God’s festivals are times for joy and celebration.

        He commands us to attend them and rejoice with our children—our entire family (Deuteronomy:12:5, 7; 14:26).

        He wants us to delight in them.

        No wonder Paul condemns the misguided ascetic philosophy of the Colossian heretics with such vigor.

        Paul was DEFENDING the Christians’ right to enjoy feasting at God’s holy festivals.

        • “God’s festivals are times for joy and celebration”

          Ruach, I’m fine, but I will have to sadly disagree on many things you wrote here 🙁

          The church is not required to observe any festivals or celebrations. We are no longer under the old covenant of the law, but rather under the new covenant of grace.

          If we were still under the holy law, then we would also still be subject to death for breaking the law. You simply can’t have a law without also having consequences. This would make the law void or useless if no punishment aspect. And this fact would apply in the secular world as well.

          Imagine traffic laws but with no tickets given to offenders? Ridiculous! Of course punishment aspect could be altered in the secular world, but the holy laws can’t be altered in their given ancient written form including consequences!

          And since we are all hapless sinners, then we are also all damned according to the law! Since there is no longer any animal blood sacrifices to cover our continual sins.

          P.S. Think hard about my statement here and below (Brenda post) 😉

          • Ruach

            @ MRH

            “We are no longer under the old covenant of the law, but rather under the new covenant of grace.”

            My post was not about “law” that we are no longer under.

            My post made it clear … I should say – PAUL made it clear as to the meaning of :

            ” Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: ”

        • “This passage, probably more than any other in the Bible, is interpreted by those who reject God’s festivals as confirmation that the biblical feast days are unnecessary observances .. I personally believe that these APPOINTED TIMES are just as relevant for us today as the first Passover was for the Hebrews in Egypt .. Paul was DEFENDING the Christians’ right to enjoy feasting at God’s holy festivals”

          @Ruach: If this is all true as you say, then where are these holy festivals and celebrations today in the church? From my understanding of the church epistles, such things no longer are required observance? At least there is no mention other than the couple places indicated above?

          Plus there is no evidence in the churches concerning things either. Unless you know something otherwise? For certain I don’t celebrate any holy festivals, being that I’m not involved in church game. Nor do I desire such activity, as the churches are all corrupt in my opinion. Many churches sort of still live under the obsolete law in theory and practice.

          P.S. I don’t much celebrate Christmas or Easter nowadays either, plus both pagan holidays, along with Thanksgiving and such.

          • Ruach

            @ MRH

            YOU:

            “If this is all true as you say, then where are these holy festivals and celebrations today in the “CHURCH”? ”

            “Plus there is no evidence in the “CHURCHES” concerning things either.”

            ” as the “CHURCHES” are all corrupt in my opinion.”

            Me:

            Mark … You don’t know it but you answered your own question.

            Did you read my post on the ORIGIN and HISTORY of the word “CHURCH”?

            If not … I just sent it e-mail to you… please read it.

            It’s the basis of what I’m about to say.

            It’s VERY IMPORTANT to understand.

            If you did read it … DON’T discount it.

            Historical FACT … “CHURCH” is a BUILDING for “IDOL WORSHIP”!

            Constantine outlawed “home assemblies” where the first-followers met and worshipped for the first 300 years … and he FORCED them to go to a public BUILDING where the SUN-god Mithra was worshipped… a CHURCH!

            Constantine forced Christians to worship Mithra in “BAAL’S HOUSE”!

            CHURCH is still a “CHURCH”!

            “BAAL’S HOUSE” is still “BAAL’S HOUSE”!

            Can you really expect a “CHURCH” to follow the instructions of Yahuah?

            Of course not!

            Stop right now … and read Ezekiel 8 and 9… do it.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            Has Yahuah changed since then concerning SUN-god worship? … You know He hasn’t.

            Were they following Yahuah’s instructions? …No.

            See what He done to them!

            Now …

            Who can expect Him to be in a “CHURCH” of “SUN-god IDOL WORSHIP”…

            “ANY” CHURCH …

            That worships on the SUN-god’s sabbath … SUN-day …

            That celebrates false-savior-Tammuz’s birthday … Christmas …

            And commemorates Tammuz with a SUN-rise service on a SUN-day …Easter.

            That changed Tammuz’s name to “Jesus” … a name which has no basis in Bible or Hebrew history and is of pagan Greco-Latin origin.

            And prays to “Lord God”.

            – Lord means BAAL!

            – The pagan GAHD (gad) is pronounced “god”!

            Baalgad is “LORD GOD”

            Look at Jeremiah 23:27 …

            “Which think to cause my people to forget MY NAME by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for BAAL (Lord).”

            Can you really expect such a place to teach the instructions of Yahuah … or would you expect such a place to teach contrary ?

            You noticed in Ezekiel 9 that Yahuah put a “mark” on the foreheads of His servants who were NOT involved in SUN worship.

            This mark would be physically invisible to humans because the angels (men) did not need to see a physical mark …

            Yahuah’s people were marked because of their OBEDIENCE to Him!

            The SUN worshippers were marked also … marked for death!

            What marked them was their dis-obedience to Yahuah’s instructions.

            “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” – Romans 6:16

            So many people are believing that the RFID chip is the “mark of the Beast” !

            I don’t!

            I’ve known about the chip for many years … they’re made about 40 miles from me… They are about ID/control/eugenics.

            Note: I don’t want one! … nor do I say it’s OK for anyone else! -PERIOD!

            It amazes me that “scholars” will COMPLETELY OVERLOOK Bible history and “THE WORD” when it comes to “the mark”.

            “The thing that hath been is the thing that shall be” must have no meaning to them!

            Did Yahuah really bring us to these end-times and NOT reveal such an important mark? .. to leave us guessing? … or to have something sprung on us?

            I don’t think so!

            Revelation has 404 verses and 278 of them have prophetic SYMBOLISM.

            All 278 can be found elsewhere in the Bible and the meaning of them also …if not word-for-word then in context.

            The “mark of the Beast” in Revelation is symbolic!

            Who is the end-time Beast? … IT IS ROME!

            The mark of the Beast is “the mark of ROME”!

            What is the mark of Rome?

            Here … I’ll let the BEAST HERSELF tell you …

            “Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act… And the act is a ” MARK ” of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.”

            – H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons. Nov. 11, 1895

            “Sunday is our ” MARK ” or authority. . .the church is ABOVE THE BIBLE, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact”

            – Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

            “Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, AND YOU WILL NOT FIND A SINGLE LINE AUTHORIZING THE SANTIFICATION OF SUNDAY…

            THE SCRIPTURES ENFORCE THE RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE OF SATURDAY, a day which we never sanctify.”

            -James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp. 72, 73.

            Why did the BEAST change the 4th Commandment?

            Because it is the SIGN (outward mark)of the EVERLASTING COVENANT!

            “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT.

            It is a SIGN between me and the children of Israel FOR EVER:

            … for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”

            – Ex. 31:13-17

            FOR EVER is still FOR EVER! … It won’t change either.

            The Saturday Sabbath is STILL VALID!

            Who do you obey? …Yahuah …or the Beast.

            Yahuah’s Covenant is clearly for any “foreigner” who joins themselves to Israel — see Isaiah 56.

            There is no covenant in Scripture with any people but Israel … and Israel is 12 tribes, not only “Jews” (Yahudim).

            The nations (gentiles) are to engraft into Israel.

            Israel is Yahuah’s wife (or bride).

            Those observant of Shabbat / Sabbath will be brought to His set-apart mountain (future event) and be among His people (see Is. 56, and 66).

            The Sabbath is the “test” … to see whether, or not, we will OBEY His Commandments! (see Exodus 16:4).

            Reading Acts, you will see “Sabbath” often—and this is not “Sun-day”.

            The act of resting on Shabbat is the sign (outward mark) of the eternal Covenant, and it commemorates CREATION …

            That’s why He immediately declares Himself Creator along WITH the Commandment.

            Yahuah hallowed the Sabbath immediately after creating everything … it was His first act after creating.

            The Sabbath is the only day that He named too.

            Keeping the Sabbath shows Yahuah that YOU ARE HIS and acknowledge HIM as CREATOR.

            Yahuah commanded us to REMEMBER His Sabbath!

            Knowing this … you are SEALED in your forehead… knowledge!

          • Brenda Murphy

            Ron and I do not celebrate the pagan holidays, either, Mark.
            If you have Christ in you, it’s always a celebration, isn’t it? Thank you, God.

            so..Ruach, are you a seventh day Adventist?

            The mark of the beast will be in you…in your right hand or forehead…..it says ‘in’….implanted, it will be the chip, that will control the masses.
            That’s how the beast will control everyone. don’t be deceived by the satan’s decoy, Rome.

            Study it out more…ask God to open your eyes.
            I say this in the love of Christ. satan will deceive you, if you let him! 🙂

          • Brenda Murphy

            The Sabbath was for the children of Israel to keep, not the Gentiles, Ruach….therefore it has no bearing on the mark of the beast that will be upon ALL the world.

            Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath, therefore if Christ be in us, we are keeping the Sabbath, in our hearts!

            Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
            Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
            Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
            Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

          • Ruach

            @ Brenda

            You:

            “so..Ruach, are you a seventh day Adventist?”

            WHOA! … WHOA!… WHOA!

            I AM NOT A SDA !!!

            I was born a gentile … but when I accepted Yahushua as my Savior I was grafted into the House of Israel and instantly became a “new creature” …

            I am an Israelite!

            Israelites are the ONLY ones allowed into the New Jerusalem … Revelation states it.

            You should know me better by now…

            I rant and rave against Rome …FROM DAY ONE!

          • Brenda, the reason I don’t celebrate holidays now has nothing to do with religion. It’s because I’ve no family here or friends to celebrate anything with now, not even birthdays. In the past the popular pagan holidays were a family or friend affair 😉

            Yeah it appears that Ruach is indeed SDA, though some of his info offers good. Fact is none seem to have all the answers, and we all won’t likely until Christ returns. At that event we will be endued with all knowledge, not before. As scripture clearly states 😉

            1Co 13:8-13 KJV – Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

            Note: the KJV word ‘charity’ is a poor translation in above 🙁

            Lexicon :: Strong’s G26 – agapē (charity)
            affection, good will, love, benevolence, brotherly love

            P.S. Jesus is presently growing the kingdom, as he has been doing since the church was born on Pentecost 🙂

          • Ruach

            @ MRH

            RUACH IS NOT SDA !

          • “I was born a gentile … but when I accepted Yahushua as my Savior I was grafted into the House of Israel and instantly became a “new creature” …”

            @Ruach: According to scripture, once one accepts Christ as savior, they are automatically entered into the Holy Kingdom (body of Christ).. not the House of Israel 🙂

            Considering things now, I suspect you are involved in the Hebrews Roots Movement? If so, I’d suggest departing it, as its doctrines are contrary to sound doctrine 😯

            Rom 1:16-17 KJV – For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

            Rom 10:8-13 KJV – But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

            Gal 3:26-29 KJV – For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

            Col 3:1-4, 10-12, 15-17, 23-25 KJV – If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. … And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; … And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. … And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

            P.S. As shown above, the only requirement to become a believer is to believe, and afterwards salvation guaranteed. Anyway, maybe one day the holy light will shine brightly for you?

          • Ruach

            @ MRH

            I’m disappointed Mark.

            Once again you jump to conclusions.

            I am not part of any movement.

          • Ruach

            @ Brenda

            You:

            “The Sabbath was for the children of Israel to keep, not the Gentiles…”

            True … until a gentile becomes an Israelite!

            If you are a born-again Christian … then YOU ARE a child of Israel! …and no longer considered a gentile…Biblical TRUTH …PERIOD!

            You:

            “Ruach….therefore it has no bearing on the mark of the beast that will be upon ALL the world.”

            The mark of the Beast will be upon the world …BUT, that doesn’t mean upon EVERY human being!

            The “mark” prophecy is a bit of a riddle.

            That’s why nderstanding the mark takes Biblical wisdom and understanding:

            “Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the Beast”

            Rome is the end-time Beast…

            The Roman numerals DCLXVI …count them.

            (D=500, C=100, L=50, X=10, V=5, I=1) = 666

            *The symbol for 1000 came long after the fall of the Roman Empire.

            The right hand is symbolic and refers to “doing”… worshipping on Sunday.

            The forehead is symbolic and refers to “belief/agreement” of Sunday as Sabbath.

            The ones who can’t buy or sell are the ones KEEPING YAHUAH’S SABBATH… just like Yahuah they have ceased from work (commerce) on that day.

            The Roman Beast has taught Christians to separate themselves from their Hebrew roots for the past 2000 years.

            My Father is Hebrew.

            His Son is Hebrew.

            His Bride is Hebrew.

            I will not shy away from it!

            The Roman spell runs very deep …

          • “So many people are believing that the RFID chip is the “mark of the Beast” ! .. I don’t! .. I’ve known about the chip for many years … they’re made about 40 miles from me… They are about ID/control/eugenics.”

            @Ruach: I disagree, as evidence now declares things. However the chip may not be fully developed, nor exact biblical form yet. But whatever prevails, it will be physical, possibly involving DNA even.

            Anyway, the RFID chip plan is already under development and testing (in the news). And like the FEMA camps it is not metaphorical. So I fear that your ‘whatever’ religion has you deeply deceived in the ‘mark of the beast’ matter. The proof always lies in the pudding 😉

            http://youtu.be/_j9Ccu8fmrg

          • Ruach

            “Anyway, the RFID chip plan is already under development and testing (in the news). And like the FEMA camps it is not metaphorical. So I fear that your ‘whatever’ religion has you deeply deceived in the ‘mark of the beast’ matter”

            The chip is in production and has been 24/7 since 911.

            Sunday Laws – known as Blue laws – have been on the books

            for many, many years… just not enforced…yet.

            Blue Laws –
            A state or local law that prohibits commercial activities on Sunday. Blue laws have been part of U.S. Legal History since the colonial period. These laws, which today are usually referred to as Sunday closing laws, prohibit certain types of commercial activity on Sundays.

            Roman church puts a mark on peoples foreheads every year at Lent … it is a (+) …Hebrew letter tau.

            Each Hebrew letter has a meaning.

            Tau (+) means “mark”.

          • Brenda Murphy

            @ Ruach~~~
            I just thought you were 7th day advent, because that is what they teach.

            I believe that the mark is a physical thing, here’s why—

            First, Jesus said that it would be in you. All this technology is leading up to it.

            Buying or selling is about scanning now, the chip inside you would be easier. Look at what’s happening.
            I warn you, do not take it. You will lose your soul.

            The devil always has an opposite of the real true God, for instance—Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
            satan has the antichrist, false prophet, and the ‘mark of the beast’.

            The mark will be implanted inside you (non-believer), if you take it, just like the Holy spirit dwells in the believers.
            satan will have control for a while, but when Christ comes back, he will destroy the antichrist and the false prophet, and bring his wrath upon the ones that have the mark.

            Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
            Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

            Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
            Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
            Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

            I hope you understand that this is real. It will soon happen.
            Christ warned us not to take it, we will burn forever, if we do.

          • Ruach

            @ Brenda

            You:

            “@ Ruach~~~
            I just thought you were 7th day advent, because that is what they teach.”

            You “THOUGHT” … you did not KNOW!

            And BEFORE you knew you immediately began to JUDGE and CONDEMN!

            I guess that’s what fine Christians do …

            “He who answers a matter BEFORE he hears it,
            It is folly and shame to him.”

            “Do you see a man hasty in his words?
            There is more hope for a fool than for him.”

            – Proverbs

            You:

            “I warn you, do not take it.”

            I had posted:

            “Note: I don’t want one! … nor do I say it’s OK for anyone else! -PERIOD!”

            Did that part COMPLETELY ESCAPE YOU in your ferver to pass judgement and criticism?

            Apparently so!

            You:

            “The devil always has an opposite of the real true God”

            Really?

            Is your memory THAT short?

            I was the one that posted the “counterfeit” theme that runs through the Bible… and it was much more than just a sentence.

            Thanks for the heads-up warning though!

            You:

            “The mark will be implanted inside you”

            Forget the FACT that ALL prophecies in Revelation are SYMBOLIC and are interpreted by the Bible itself … I’m sure it doesn’t matter.

            “Knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”

            If you, or ANYONE else disagrees with my post …that is fine with me!

            I DO NOT have a problem with it … AT ALL!

            But one thing you can’t deny is the fact that my interpretation comes FROM THE BIBLE!

            “These things we also speak, not in words which MAN’S WISDOM TEACHES but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

            My “whatever religion” has a Name by the way …

            It’s YAHUSHUA HA MASHIACH!

            Maybe I shouldn’t be doing ACTUAL BIBLE STUDY anymore and allowing the Holy Spirit to compare “Spiritual things with Spiritual”.

            Maybe my “study” should consist of sitting at a computer and copy/paste and downloading videos made by who-knows-who.

            I’ll admit … there was a mistake associated with my post…

            It was believing that there would be an INTELLIGENT and MATURE discourse ABOUT the content!

            That’s what is expected between mature adults …

            THAT expectation was my mistake!

            I won’t make THAT mistake again.

            In case you need help:

            Discourse:

            Written or spoken communication or debate.

          • Fisher

            Holy smokes!

            Ruach, yesterday I came across your posts and thought they were quite interesting. And then this morning I came across the news below and almost fell out of my chair. Now your posts are a little more than interesting.
            Incredible is a better term. I’m sure you’ll notice that Pope Francis said all people- not just Christians.
            I hope the news links come thru – I’ve never done this before.
            Notice the fourth and fifth and sixth one down is in the U.S. already.
            This is only a few very recent news articles of very many more.

            Everything below is copied.

            Pope Francis says No-Work Sundays are Good for all People, not just Christians (July 2014)

            “Pope Francis has lamented the abandoning of the traditionally Christian practice of not working on Sundays, saying it has a negative impact on families and friendships.”

            News: Link

            Pope Francis Book Talks About a Needed Sunday “Sabbath” Rest – THAT APPEALS TO EVERYONE! (April 2013)

            News article: Link

            Sundays Must be a Day of Rest Dedicated to God and Family, Pope Says (June 2012)

            News: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202360.htm

            Sunday to be a Day of Rest in U.S. Town, Harveyville (May 2012)

            News Article: http://www.kctv5.com/story/17074775/sunday-designated-as-day-of-rest

            A Community in Brooklyn, U.S.A., to Report Any Restaurants Breaking the Sunday Blue Law (May 2012)

            News: http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/35/18/dtg_waronbrunchrecruits_2012_05_11_bk.html

            A Call to Americans – Let’s Make Sunday a Day of Rest, For God’s Sake (April 2012)

            http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/04/22/let-make-sunday-day-rest-for-gods-sake/?intcmp=features

            Lagos State Government Enforce Ban on Sunday Markets (May 2012)

            News article: http://www.punchng.com/news/lasg-to-enforce-ban-on-sunday-markets/

            15th Annual World ‘Sabbath’ Interfaith Service [SUNDAY] – The Interfaith ‘Holy Day’ (January 2014)

            “The World Sabbath of Religious Reconciliation – the interfaith holy day of Peace and Reconciliation among all religions, races, ethnic groups and nations …

            News article: Link

            Ikea France convicted for Violation of the Sunday Rest Law (July 2014)

            “A court has convicted Ikea’s French branch for violations of the Sunday rest.

            News: Link

            Hundreds of People Protest Shops Opening on Sunday in Athens, Greece and Block Access to Shops (April 2014)

            “Some 500 protesters closed access to shops on a central street in the northeast part of the capital on Sunday, where banners were raised reading ‘Never on Sunday’. The demonstrators also called on the people not to shop.”

            When you have the people protesting shops and businesses opening on Sunday, then Rome has the perfect situation ready for their mark.

            News Article: Link

            Trade and Industry Board Members Support Sunday Rest Bill as Shops Close in Argentina (April 2014)

            “Members of the Board of the Centre for Trade and Industry (CCI), showed their commitment to bill submitted by the legislator Julian Moon through which the closure of shops on Sundays is sought to ensure, in this manner, the rest of the workers … We are extremely pleased to promote the closure of shops on Sunday,

            News Article: Link

            EUROPEAN TRADE UNION CONFEDERATION Pushing for Sunday law in Europe (April 2014)

            “The protection of a work-free Sunday is of paramount importance for workers health, and has a greater impact on workers health and well being compared to any other work free day.”

            Article: Link

            Deal Reached to Give Israelies one Sunday as a day of rest every Month (February 2014)

            MKs Silvan Shalom (Likud), Naftali Bennett (Jewish Home), and Rabbi Shai Piron (Yesh Atid) have reached an agreement in the ongoing initiative to introduce Sunday as a day off from work and school, according to Channel 10. The catch: free Sundays would only be once per month.”

            One step at a time!

            News article: Link

            State Council in France Rules that Sunday Opening Goes Against ‘the Principles of a Weekly day of Rest’ (February 2014)

            “DIY STORES across France will not be allowed to open on Sundays, after the Conseil d’Etat suspended a government decree following a complaint from trade unions … The judgement went on to say that Sunday opening went against the principles of a weekly day of rest that is guaranteed in the constitutional rights of employees and that this right is exercised in principle on Sundays … Unions have welcomed the Conseil d’Etat’s ruling.”

            News article: Link

            European Sunday Alliance Pledge to Commit Politicians into LEGISLATING Sunday Rest (January 2014)

            “The European Sunday Alliance officially launched a Pledge for a work-free Sunday and decent work, ahead of the European elections 2014. The Pledge is aimed at committing European politicians to the promotion of a common weekly day of rest as well as a legal framework guaranteeing sustainable working time patterns based on the principle of decent work.”

            Pledge Document: Click Here

            INFO: Everything Stops on a Sunday in Indian State, Even Political Campaigning (November 2013)

            Article: Link

            Catholic Church Pushing for Sunday Law in Polish Parliament (October 2013)

            “Today in Parliament held a conference .. Free Sunday. Representatives of the Catholic discussed include about how important for the healthy functioning of families is free Sunday, presented the arguments in favor of legal protection that day …

            News article: Link

            New General Labour Law to Establish only one day of Rest for Angolans: Sunday! (October 2013)

            News Article: Link

            Mowing the Grass in your Garden on Sunday is Banned in Belgian Town (October 2013)

            News Article: Link

            Catholic Church and Trade Unions Working Towards a Shopping Ban on Sunday in Italy (June 2013)

            “The Roman Catholic Church, along with trade unions and small business associations, is working to save Sundays by pushing for a ban on shopping in Italy …

            Source

            Sunday Alliance is Formed in Switzerland (November 2012)

            Article: Link

            Why Shutting up Shop on Sunday is Good for Everyone (September 2012)

            “The reason Christians argue for a day off is because it’s good for people to have a rest, not for some abstract or particularly religious reason.”

            They have been using this new angle for some time now, to condition those outside the faith and get them ready for the coming Sunday law.

            Article: Link

            Reformed Political Party in Netherlands Want to Shut all Shops on Sundays in Order for Citizens “to go to Church” (September 2012)

            News: Link

            Eurozone Demands Six-Day Working Week for Greece – A Move Towards Sunday Law? (September 2012)

            News item for this: Link

            National “Back to Church Sunday” Event for September 2012 (July 2012)

            This is a movement (in it’s 3rd year) in which thousands of churches are getting together to get their respective communities to attend church on Sunday. And it is just another way to get the masses to accept the Sunday law when it is enforced.

            Website: Link

            Landmark Decision: Austria Court Supports Ban on Sunday Shop Opening (July 2012)

            News: Link

          • Brenda Murphy

            @ Ruach–

            Okay, simmer down now, lol.

            I am sorry if I offended you.
            It’s just that with all the Catholic stuff, I thought you were trying to push the 7th day Adventist thing, ’cause they push it really hard…I had neighbors trying to indoctrinate me in it, lol.

            They would give me their pamphlets and books, and I hated that.
            I burned them all.

            Anyways, I know about the catholic junk.
            Glad you do, too.

            I can see that you know a lot.
            I am glad God’s people are one step ahead of the devil. 🙂

          • Colonel T Roy (ret)

            Congratulations Ruach

            Congratulations Ruach,
            Revelation is certainly not for the average mainstream Christian.
            You are counted among the few.
            Well done.

          • Ruach

            @ Fisher

            Thanks for posting these news articles.

          • Ruach

            @ Colonel T Roy (ret)

            Thank you Colonel.

          • Colonel T Roy (ret)

            Ruach,

            I have read your posts with great interest.
            I hope you understand that the rfid chip is, at least, part of the mark system.

          • Ruach

            @ Colonel T Roy (ret)

            You:

            “I have read your posts with great interest.
            I hope you understand that the RFID chip is, at least, part of the mark system.”

            Me:

            YES … I DO !!!

            ABSOLUTELY …I DO !!!

            My posts have a tendency to be long.

            So I write fast… I make mistakes and have even stated that long before now.

            [ I might make some in this post too.
            If so … Do allow me to correct them if I deem them to be a true mistake on my part. ]

            In doing so I was not as precise and detailed as I should have been… this was an apparent mistake… the first of two!

            First mistake was that I indicated that the “mark” was not the chip…

            I should have taken the time to say that I didn’t think that the mark was “just a chip” in and of itself.

            Second … before I was given the chance to expound on my post and clarify my first mistake I was immediately “BASHED” by those I believed to be mature Christians…

            People that I had befriended … THAT was my second mistake!

            I have PLENTY more to say as to the mark AS REVEALED by SCRIPTURE … through hours of ACTUAL BIBLE STUDY in THE WORD.

            And … taken IN CONJUNCTION with today’s BEAST TECHNOLOGY (RFID chip) one gets a much more clear picture as a whole.

            After all Revelation means REVEALED !

            It does not mean HIDE!

            The majority of Christians have no concept of CONTEXT when it comes to study …

            John was writing TO first-century Christians.

            THEY understood the meaning of the mark.

            THEY ALSO UNDERSTOOD THE SYMBOLS! … they were not a mystery to them!

            John … AND the first-century Christians AT THAT TIME were under severe persecution when he wrote Revelation… not only by the Jews – but by ROME also!

            He hid most of the meanings so as NOT to bring FURTHER PERSECUTION upon his Christian brothers and sisters and himself!

            “Here is WISDOM, Let him that hath UNDERSTANDING count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

            John was writing to first-century CHRISTIANS at the time and they were MOSTLY JEWS!

            What was their “WISDOM” …

            And what was their “UNDERSTANDING” …

            that these MOSTLY JEWISH Christians had that the others (non-Christians) did not?

            Clearly it was OT Bible knowledge!

            And SPECIFIC knowledge at that!

            I could elaborate but I’ll just let the IGNORant remain ignorant… No offence to you Colonel!

            The Jews had been raised on the OT!

            They KNEW that the BEAST John wrote of was the Roman Gov’t. because they understood that Daniel refered to the Roman Gov’t. as a BEAST in Daniel 7.

            John knew it and he knew that they knew it!

            To further reinforce this fact John said to count the number of the Beast (Rome)…

            D=500, L = 100, C = 50, X = 10, V = 5, I = 1 … 666

            And even further reinforcement …

            “for it is the number of a man”

            John is NOT saying that the Beast in this passage is a man!

            He’s simply saying that the Beast and a (certain) man had the same “number” when counted!

            The “Beast” and the “man” are two different entities IN THIS PASSAGE.

            Who was that man that John eluded to WHO WOULD BE RECOGNIZED by Christians AT THAT TIME?

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            2 Peter 1:20

            “Knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of the scripture is of any private interpretation”

            Revelation defined is:

            “to reveal, a disclosure,”

            It does not mean to hide.

            BUT … that is what most people believe about the book of Revelation…that its meaning is hidden.

            And that we must resort to “private interpretation.”

            However … the “meaning” of the book of Revelation IS INTERPRETED and REVEALED by SCRIPTURE itself.

            Remember, the prophesies in this book were written to those living in the first century (Revelation 1:1,4,11).

            How could Yahuah bless his people all this time for keeping these prophesies if they did NOT understand them (Revelation 1:3; 22:7,9)?

            The fact is … they DID understand them.

            They had SPECIFIC wisdom and understanding … NOT like people of today!

            These prophesies are NOT left to private interpretation!

            The meaning is REVEALED to EVERYONE!

            Especially those who were alive in the first century (Revelation 22:10).

            2 Corinthians 4:3

            “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:”

            The KEY is WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING!

            A SPECIFIC WISDOM …

            A SPECIFIC UNDERSTANDING …

            DISCLAIMER:

            In no way do I believe that Revelation, ALL or IN PART, is not relevant for today!

            It most certainly is!

            Apologies Colonel …

            That disclaimer was not meant for you … but for the “experts”.

          • Ruach

            @ Colonel T Roy (ret)

            Let me add:

            I often refer to the Beast as Rome.

            The Beast (system) represents “man’s POLITICAL government” and it is controlled by Babylon…

            In SCRIPTURE … the Beast is defined as kings.

            (Daniel 7:17, Revelation 17:10-12)…

            And man-made kingdoms (Daniel 7:18,23, Revelation 16:10) that have power to make war and kill.

            (Revelation 11:7; 17:14).

            The Beast is the government, with rulers and armies, that are against Yahuah and his servants.
            (Revelation 19:19).

            Yahushua said…

            “He that is not with me is against me”

            (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23).

            So rulers that enforce laws contrary to God’s Law, are the Beast.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            “Mystery Babylon” is Satan’s SPIRITUAL government.

            “Mystery Babylon” is Satan’s SPIRITUAL government…

            that CONTROLS …

            “Man’s POLITICAL government”

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            “Mystery Babylon” riding/controlling the Beast (man’s gov’t.)

            I refer to the Beast as Rome because Rome was “man’s” ruling government in John’s time of writing Revelation.

            “Revived Rome” is still ruling today.

            That’s why world leaders BOW DOWN to the pope!

          • Brenda Murphy

            @ Ruach–

            I apologized, if I seemed to harsh, in another post. Guess you didn’t see it.

            Anyways, we all have our opinions, and are entitled to them….not just you…..and if you say that I’m judging just because I give my opinion, founded in the Word of God, does that mean I’m judging you, I think not.

            We can discuss this in a kind manner…or not. But , I will state what I believe, regardless. 🙂

          • Colonel T Roy (ret)

            Ruach,

            I have been tracking your posts for weeks.
            You don’t comment, but rather you teach.
            You love and have studied history as it pertains to the Bible. I think that you may have even studied Law but I don’t think that you are a lawyer.
            I believe that you have ‘asked for the old paths’- Jer. 6, and Father answered, didn’t He? And I believe that you became a ‘repairer of the breach’- Isa. 58.
            Maybe you know that already. i’m confident you do for you have Spiritual discernment. The Name of our Father is important to you. The Old Testament is important to you. You certainly don’t belong to a church of any kind and probably haven’t been to one in years. You didn’t learn what you have from being in church. You make it public that you are an Israelite and you even go by Ruach.
            And you absolutely abhor sun worship of any kind.

            I would love to hear your testimony sometime.
            It’s been my experience that ones such as yourself doesn’t have a ‘normal’ testimony.
            Father brought you to your knees, didn’t He brother?
            He ’emptied’ you- so that He, and He alone, could fill you with Himself.
            I’m sure that you and I have that in common.

            Repairer of the breach-
            According to the scriptures they are watchmen who speak up and doesn’t hold back. They lift up their voices and show our Fathers ‘professed’ people their transgression against His moral LAW of LOVE.

            ALL 10 Commandments are important to you.
            You understand James 2:10-12, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, do not commit adultery, said also do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.”
            Most Christians will completely disregard the fact that this is in the New Testament and therefore after the ascension of our Savior.
            There is only one law in the Bible that contains these commandments. It is none other than our Father’s TEN commandment law of love. Which verse 12 of James 2 clearly states to be the law of liberty for those who live it, because it is in their heart, written there by our Father Himself!

            Yes, the Roman spell, as you say, does indeed run very deep. But you’re not under it anymore, that’s for sure.
            And it’s clear to me that you have wisdom and understanding of the second kind!
            You know it and now you know that I know it. the first meaning of wisdom and understanding is obvious- but you and I know there is a deeper meaning which you refer to as being ‘specific’.
            You didn’t want to reveal it so I won’t either.

            I would love to hear more scripture on the mark, the name, etc.
            I too know who the ‘man’ is who has the same number as the beast. it’s a good name to know in that is sheds light in these modern times, does it not?

            We have very much in common.

            By the way, I decoded your hidden messages to rev. 2:9.
            It took some time but I finally got it.
            Once I found the key to it it opened right up.
            Then I realized that you put the key in the message.
            Very clever.
            The first message was on-point and was good sound advice.
            The second message was down right funny! I laughed out loud.
            I applied the key of the first to the second one and it worked- sort of.
            Then I figured out the ‘twist’ that you put on it.

            Very clever Ruach.

            broz55@yahoo.com

          • Ruach

            @ Colonel T Roy (ret)

            Sir …That was quite a reply!

            I love Biblical history.

            I’m not a lawyer, but I have studied some law and still do. I have two sons that study law also.

            There are two aspects to “Mystery Babylon” …political and spiritual… and we have to protect ourselves against BOTH…therefore –> Bible study and Law study!

            I could spend hours detailing the IMPORTANCE of this as it pertains to the RFID chip law… but I won’t on here.

            .
            .
            .

            I DID ask for the “old paths” (years ago) but I didn’t use those exact words… no time to elaborate. Nor did I even know of that passage at the time.

            .
            .
            .

            Names ARE important aren’t they?

            And the Name that is ABOVE ALL NAMES in Creation is the MOST IMPORTANT FOR ME to get right…

            How many times are we instructed to “call upon my Name”…

            And … “for there is no other Name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

            That Name IS important to get right!

            YHVH appears at least 6,800 times in the original writings ( more if you count the times that it is used in the names of prophets like Elijah, Jeremiah, etc).

            And it appears in the KJV exactly ZERO TIMES!

            Why is that?

            Because the enemy DOESN’T want us to know the real Name.

            The KJ has been tampered with and you have to correct it.

            Mystery Babylon has taught that HIS NAME is not to be spoken … “out of respect” she says.

            That’s GARBAGE!

            Because MANY times she thought it OK to translate it as “LORD” which means BAAL !!!

            And “God” which means GAHD … a pagan deity !!!

            “How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

            Which think to cause my people to FORGET MY NAME by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for BAAL.”

            OBVIOUSLY …Our Father’s Name IS IMPORTANT TO HIM!

            And now, TODAY , His people are not only calling Him …but are also praying to Him as “BAAL GAHD” (Lord God).

            The same “Baalgad” in scripture.

            Satan is very cunning … Just as Yahuah told us in the beginning!

            YES … His Name is VERY IMPORTANT to me!

            .
            .
            .

            My testimony is certainly not “normal”.
            Very, very few have ever heard it … it’s EXTREMELY personal. And those few that have heard it never look at me the same again… NOT in a bad way either.

            I’ve literally had to separate myself from those who have heard it… Except for my family of course.

            Maybe one day Colonel.

            .
            .
            .

            ALL Ten Commandments … ABSOLUTELY !!!

            Could write all day on this …SCRIPTURE based too!

            You know them!

            .
            .
            .

            You decoded the message!

            I’m smiling.

            I was hoping that Rev. 2:9 would do it.

            .
            .
            .

            You put an e-mail address in your reply …

            Was it intentional … or just a mistake ?

            I DO ALLOW for mistakes Colonel! (smiling)

            .
            .
            .

            If you’ve been following my posts and like them then we do have much in common.

            I love to share and I have no doubts that you have much to share also.

            – Ruach

          • Brenda Murphy

            Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
            Act 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
            Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
            Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
            Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

            So, Ruach, this big mystery of God’s name, is it in the old Hebrew tongue? lol

            Yes, they did change the name, in English, it’s Jesus, but Christ knows his name, and he knows who is his…..and who is antichrist…….
            and who tries to change his word, for Jesus is the Word of God. That is his name…….THE WORD OF GOD….so if we have the WORD OF GOD LIVING IN US, then we have the NAME OF GOD……..IF WE HAVE THE TRUTH!!!! AND NOT THE LIES OF SATAN.

            AMEN !!!!

            P. S. I’m not hollowing at you, just caps for emphasis. lol 🙂

          • Brenda Murphy

            JESUS IS LORD!!!

          • Colonel T Roy (ret)

            Ruach,

            The e-mail address was not a mistake.
            Because of my military background I can share inside info and insight on an array of topics such as the star groups that you mentioned, law, etc.
            Some of it I will need to encode. You have the key.

            You don’t belong on here Ruach.
            Your time is yet to come.

            “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces”

            That’s what happened to you.

            The two denominations of Rev.

          • WORD man

            First of all, the Old Covenant had some poor promises in it. The New Covenant, we are told, “was established upon better promises.” (Hebrews 8:6).
            Has anyone ever been able to point out any poor promises in the Ten Commandments? Never.
            On the contrary, Paul declares that they were very good (Ephesians 6:1-3). This declaration alone is sufficient to show that the writer of Hebrews was not charging the moral law with any weak promises.
            The Old Covenant, whatever else it might be, could never be the Ten Commandments.

            The second thing wrong with the Old Covenant was that it was faulty (Hebrews 8:7).
            Let me ask a question: Has any man ever been able to find a fault or a flaw in the handwriting of God?
            The psalmist, “The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.” Psalm 19:7.
            Paul wrote, “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” Romans 7:12.
            No law could be perfect and faulty at the same time.

            Thirdly, it was to be abolished! (Hebrews 8:13).
            Now we can ask a serious question that should settle every doubt on this matter.
            Did the great moral law of Ten Commandments vanish away?
            Anyone who has read the New Testament must answer, Absolutely not.
            Paul affirms the exact opposite about the law.
            He asked, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” Romans 3:31.

            Does the Bible contradict itself?
            Can something vanish away and be established at the same time?
            Did the same writer say opposite things about the same law?
            Just to be certain that Paul was not saying that the Old Covenant was the law, let us insert the words “Old Covenant” instead of the word “law” into Romans 3:31:

            “Do we then make void the Old Covenant through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Old Covenant.”

            That doesn’t sound right at all, does it? We know that the Old Covenant could never be spoken of in this way. We can see that the Old Covenant which came to an end could not have been the Ten Commandments.

            Another place in Hebrews that describes the first covenant is in Hebrews 9:1. This chapter talks about the priestly duties and sacrifices. Hebrews 7:12 also explains how there is a change of the law concerning these sacrifices and priestly duties. Hebrews 10:1 says the law was a “shadow”.
            But are the 10 Commandments also a “shadow”? Certainly not! Why? Because this verse specifically explains that only laws with sacrifices are “shadows.” Hebrews 8:3-5 confirms that only sacrificial laws are shadows.
            Again, the 10 Commandments do not fit into these descriptions of the first covenant either, because the 10 Commandments have nothing to do with priestly duties, sacrifices, offerings, or shadows.

          • Richard D.

            To ruach,
            Just like you said there is no biblical basis for the name Jesus. The book The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus goes to a great length on the subject and a lot more. Yeshua said that he came in his fathers name.
            “I am come in MY FATHER’s NAME, and ye receive ME not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.”
            Man will not send forth a machine to Mars without giving it a name. Everything has a name, yet when it comes to the NAME of our FATHER, FATHER YAHWEH, HE has no name.
            If MESSIYAH came in the FATHER’s NAME then we had better find out what the FATHER’s NAME is. MESSIYAH did not come to establish some pagan Latin or Greek name. HE did not come in the name of Jesus or Lord God, but HE came in the NAME and the authority of HIS FATHER. HIS NAME is YAHSHUA which is YAH-WEH’s yeshua unto us. The word yeshua is YAHSHUA and there is no other NAME under heaven given whereby there is yeshua.

            About the book
            “Yeshua’s teachings, which supposedly form the basis for Western Christianity, are now filtered through 2000 years of “traditions” born in ignorance of the land, language, and culture of the Bible. The issues over which Yeshua wrestled with the Pharisees are simply not understood by modern Christians; nor are his most important instructions followed by those who claim to be his disciples.
            Former Pharisee, Nehemia Gordon, a Dead Sea Scrolls scholar and Semitic language expert, explores the ancient Hebrew text of the Gospel of Matthew from manuscripts long hidden away in the archives of Jewish scribes. Gordon’s research reveals that the more “modern” Greek text of Matthew, from which the Western world’s versions were translated, depicts “another Jesus” from the Yeshua portrayed in the ancient Hebrew version of Matthew.”

          • Brenda Murphy

            For those of you who would like to bring us back under the old law, in which the Gentiles never were in the first place, as you are also saying that the blood of Jesus is of none effect……

            Well, you can go ahead and live under it, I will be under the law of liberty in Christ Jesus. Amen.

            Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
            Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
            Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

            Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
            Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
            Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
            Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
            Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
            Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

            As you see in these passages, mercy took the place of the old covenant, and that’s what we are to show, otherwise we won’t have any works, and our faith is dead.

            And one more thing, if Jesus and God is the wrong name to be used, why have all my prayers been answered……after all……satan does not want anyone to be blessed, for he comes to kill and to steal and to destroy? 🙂

          • WORD man

            Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

            In Luke 24:44, Jesus said, “all things must be fulfilled.” these words are construed by those who insist the Law fully passed at the Cross to mean that Jesus was saying his death was the fulfillment of all things necessary for the passing of the Law. One thing that should immediately strike the reader is the fact that Jesus is not even speaking of the passing of the law and the prerequisites for that. He is speaking of the necessity of the fulfillment of the law to be sure–but in contrast to those who appeal to this text he is not saying “now here is all that is necessary for the Old Covenant to pass away; I must suffer”. In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus is speaking of the prerequisites for the passing of the Law, and he says it must ALL be fulfilled. In Luke 24, Jesus was saying that his passion was one of the constituent elements of the Law that had to be fulfilled, not the only thing in the law that had to be fulfilled!

            But in Luke 24:27, Jesus taught his disciples: “And beginning at Moses and the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” Notice the reference to ALL the scriptures. Verse 22 expected ALL things that are written to be fulfilled. Now read verse 26, “Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter his glory?” In expounding the scriptures and the need for him to fulfill all things, Jesus did not stop at the cross, he spoke of the glory to follow the cross! Even those who believe the Law ended at Calvary do not believe Jesus entered his glory at the Cross; they place that at Pentecost.

            Now, since Jesus was expounding on the need to fulfill all things written in the Law and the Prophets, and since he did not stop at the Cross but spoke of the glory to follow, it must be true that the fulfillment of all things written in the Law and Prophets had to include Christ’s entrance into the “glorious things” and this was sometime after the cross! These thoughts are corroborated in Acts 3:18ff. In verse 18, Peter says Jesus fulfilled all things written concerning his suffering. But notice verses 21 and following. Peter tells them Christ would remain in heaven until all things foretold by the prophets i.e. the restoration of all things, were fulfilled. In addition, in Luke 24:44-47, Jesus said that not only must he suffer and enter his glory, but that “remission and repentance of sins should be preached in all nations beginning at Jerusalem.” The fulfillment of ALL things did not happen at the cross or at Pentecost.

            In Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus said none of the law will pass from the law (Old Testament law) until ALL is fulfilled. Obviously, all prophesies were not fulfilled at Jesus’ death, so nothing passed from the law at his death. I mean, if all was fulfilled at the cross, how is it that on Pentecost, 50 days later, Peter said that Joel 2:28 was fulfilled in the pouring out of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:16)? How is it that James in Acts 15:14 is speaking about how God had visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name declares, “And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written…?” It was fulfilled after the cross. The abomination of desolation as spoken by Daniel is said to be unfulfilled (Matthew 24:15). The great tribulation as prophesied in Joel 2:2, Daniel 12:1, and Jeremiah 30:7 is said to be yet future by Jesus (Matthew24:21). In Luke 21:22 Jesus said, “for these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled,” so they could not have been fulfilled at the cross.

            Many try to negate the force of Matthew 5:17-18 by saying what Jesus really meant was that he would fulfill all the legal and moral mandates of the Old Law and the Old Law would then pass; but he did not really mean all prophecies had to be fulfilled. Thus, in this interpretation there is a distinction between the Law and the Prophets. This interpretation flatly contradicts Luke 24:44! Luke 24 speaks about the law, the prophets, and the Psalms and Jesus said all these things had to be fulfilled! Jesus said “the law” was predictive in nature. In Matthew 11:13, our Lord said “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
            Did you catch that?
            Jesus said the LAW and the prophets prophesied!
            How, then, can one delineate between the prophets and “The Law”?
            Simply put, he cannot Biblically do so!
            They are one and the same.

            John 10:34, “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” Jesus was quoting Psalms 82:6. Why is he calling Psalms 82:6 the law? Because the law is a generic term for the teachings and instructions of God. Most people think the “law” is only the first 5 books of scripture, but it begins at Genesis 1:1 and end at Revelation 22:21.

            Further, the prophets are very clearly called “the law”! In I Corinthians 14:21-22, Paul quotes from Isaiah 28 and specifically calls it “the law.” A quick check of Romans 3:10ff will reveal that Paul quotes from the Psalms, Jeremiah, Proverbs and Isaiah and calls all of them “the Law” (verse 19). In addition, as noted above, the law prophesied (Matthew 11:13). Now since the prophets are called “the law”, and since “the law” prophesied, one cannot delineate between the law and prophets in Matthew 5.

            In Acts 6:14, Philip is accused of saying that “this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place and shall change the customs which Moses delivered unto us”, this was not fulfilled at the cross. Jesus said none of the law would pass until all was fulfilled. But the view that the Law passed at the Cross makes Jesus to say all the Law would pass when some of it was fulfilled! But Jesus said all the Law and prophets had to be fulfilled; not just one specific prediction! Jesus not only said he had to suffer, he said he had to enter his glory; he said the gospel had to preached in all the world. Fulfillment of all things positively entailed more than the cross, thus the Law could not pass at the Cross since Jesus said all of it had to be fulfilled before any of it could pass. Peter says that “the end of all things is at hand.” I Peter 4:7. What does the term “all things” refer to?

            I would like to ask you a question: If a law or covenant has been abrogated, are any of its penalties or promises applicable anymore? If the Old Covenant was abrogated at the Cross does this not mean that all Old Covenant promises and penalties were either fulfilled or abrogated at that time? If not, why not?

            The apostles wrote from different perspectives depending on the particular context. In one place they would write using the future tense because the completion of the transformation was not consummated until the destruction of the Temple (Hebrews 13:14), in another place he would write of the actual place where they were during the transformation: (Hebrews 12:28), and finally in another place he would write of the status once all would be said and done under the New Covenant: (Hebrews 12:22). There is one Jerusalem from above, but there were different perspectives from which Paul was writing.

            Paul emphatically says that truth is taken directly from the Old Covenant (Acts 24:14ff; Acts 26:21ff). Specifically, he tells us that the promise of the resurrection was an Old Covenant promise made by and to Moses and all the prophets. But Paul was speaking about this promise several years after the cross where, we are told, the Old Covenant was taken away. But if the Old Covenant was taken away at the Cross, how could Paul, years afterward, still be preaching Old Covenant promises?!? You see, if the law was nullified at the Cross, then all of it was nullified! Remember, Jesus said none would pass until all was fulfilled. If all was not fulfilled then none of it passed!

          • Brenda Murphy

            @ word man

            I think that you and others are still making Christ’s Blood of no effect….trying to say the old laws are still in effect.

            Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
            Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
            Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
            Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
            Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
            Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
            Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
            Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
            Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

            I rest my case, and the Judge will preside at the hearing, at the appointed time. Thank you. 🙂

          • WORD man

            I’m sorry if my writing style does not meet the necessities of your cognitive requirements.
            That’s really my fault.
            To claim that I am “making Christ’s Blood of no effect….trying to say the old laws are still in effect.”
            is wrong of you. I know it’s my fault that you failed to understand the “whole” of my writings. Forgive me.

            “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.”, you wrote.

            Of course He did.

            A “covenant” and “law” are two completely different things. Many believe that by the “Old Covenant” being done away with, that automatically refers to “God’s Law” being done away with. This is not true. A “covenant” or “agreement” is not synonymous with “law.” To illustrate, here is a use of the word “covenant”, which cannot possibly refer to law:

            Genesis 9:12-17, “And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you…a covenant between me and the earth…And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh…that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.”

            The above is a covenant, or an agreement, between God and every living thing on earth. The animals were not bound to obey any law on penalty of death, this was simply an agreement. Now, there may be agreements, or covenants, in which people agree to obey certain laws in exchange for blessings, which is what the Old Covenant did, but this does not mean that if the agreement to obey certain laws are done away with, that the laws themselves are done away with as well.

            For example, from the beginning, it was a sin to steal, murder, and commit adultery. Now, if at a later time, there is a covenant, and this covenant includes the promise to obey those laws in exchange for something else, then when that covenant has been fulfilled, it does not mean those laws are done away with now. It does not mean we are free to murder, steal, and commit adultery, just because a covenant, which was based upon those laws, have been abrogated.

            God called Moses up into the mountain before He gave the law and proposed a covenant between Him and His people (Exodus 19:3-6). Notice how God asked Moses to present His offer to the people. Here are all the elements of a true covenant. Conditions and promises are laid down for both sides. If the children of Israel accept God’s proposal, a covenant will be established (Exodus 19:7,8).

            Just as soon as that answer went back to God, the basis for the Old Covenant was set up. But before it could go into formal operation there had to be a sealing or ratifying of the pact. This ritualistic service involved the sprinkling of the blood of an ox on the people and is described in Exodus 24:4-8:

            We are reminded in this passage that this covenant was not the law itself, but was made “concerning all these words.” The Ten Commandments were the basis for the agreement. The people promised to keep that law, and God promised to bless them in return. The crucial weakness in the whole arrangement revolved around the way Israel promised. There was no suggestion that they could not fully conform to every requirement of God. Neither was there any application for divine assistance. “We can do it,” they insisted. Here is a perfect example of leaning on the flesh and trusting human strength. The words are filled with self-confidence. “…All that the LORD hath spoken we will do” (Exodus 19:8)

            Were they able to keep that promise? In spite of their repeated assurances, they miserably broke their word before Moses could even get off the mountain with the tables of stone. Do we begin to see where the poor promises lay in the Old Covenant?

            God is reported as “finding fault with THEM.” (Hebrews 8:8). He said, “Because THEY continued not in my covenant … I regarded them not.” (Verse 9). The blame is placed squarely upon the human side of the mutual pact. Not God’s side, not God’s Law. Thus, we can see exactly why Paul wrote as he did about this Old Covenant in Hebrews 8. It did gender to bondage, it proved faulty, had poor promises, and vanished away – all because the people failed to obey their part of the agreement. Putting all these things together we can see why a new covenant was desperately needed, which would have better promises.

            How were the New Covenant promises better? Because God made them, and they guaranteed successful obedience through His strength alone (Hebrews 8:10-12). How was the New Covenant ratified? In the same manner that the Old was confirmed – by the shedding of blood. But instead of an ox having to shed its blood, the sinless Son of God would provide the blood of sprinkling (Hebrews 13:20, 21).

            Some Christians claim that in the Old Covenant, the laws are external and written in the laws of Moses, while in the New Covenant, the laws are internalized, written on the heart. This is not completely true, because the Laws during the Mosaic Covenant were written on the heart as well:

            Deuteronomy 30:14, “But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.”
            Isaiah 51:7, “Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law”
            Psalms 40:8, “I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.”
            Psalms 37:31, “The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.”
            Proverbs 3:1, “My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:”
            Ezra 7:10, “For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.”
            Job 22:22, “Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.”
            (See also Deuteronomy 30:10, Joshua 22:5, 2 Kings 10:31; 23:25, 2 Chron.31:21, Psalm 119:34).

            Maybe one day, on a better day for you, your reading comprehension skills will not abandon you to the degree it has on this day and perhaps then you can begin to understand what was actually written without viewing it and responding to it through a primary thought system.

            Comprehension is not your strong suit.

          • Brenda Murphy

            word man,
            I understood and comprehended everything that you said, but did, and did not agree, on some of it. I do not think that it merits any of my attention, other than the fact that we are not, and I repeat, we are not under the old laws.
            Jesus’ blood is what took care of all that. 🙂

          • WORD man

            Jesus Himself said in Matthew 5:17-18 that none of the law will pass from the law until ALL is fulfilled.

            – In John 10:34 Jesus quoted Psalms 82:6 and called it (Psalms) “the law”.

            – In I Corinthians 14 Paul quotes from Isaiah 28 and specifically calls it (Isaiah) “the law.”

            – Paul quotes from the Psalms, Jeremiah, Proverbs and Isaiah and calls ALL OF THEM (Psalms, Jeremiah, Proverbs, Isaiah) “the Law” (verse 19).

            – In Matthew 11:13, our Lord said “For all the prophets and the LAW prophesied until John.”

            Again – Did you catch that?

            The prophets are very clearly called “the law”!

            The LAW and the prophets are the same thing.

            We are being told that the WHOLE Bible is a LAW BOOK!

            That’s why throughout the Bible we find LEGAL terms such as “agreement”, “testimony”, “bind/binding”, “will”, “seal”, “judgement”, – any others.

            Some “laws” of the Law Book we are no longer under.

            Some of them we still are simply because not ALL of the LAW (Bible) has not been fulfilled yet!

            To say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar. I know that’s not your intention! I have no doubt that your heart is true for Jesus.

            To say, as you did, “Jesus’ blood is what took care of all that.” – is Biblically not true!

            All of the LAW BOOK has not been fulfilled!

            When a Ruler (King, President, etc.)signs an important Legal Document, Law, etc. – it MUST contain three things in order to be legal and valid. Those three things are his name, his title and the territory that he rules over.
            All three become his seal of authority.

            Notice in the Fourth Commandment- it contains ALL THREE.

            “For in six days the Lord (NAME) made (CREATOR) heaven and earth, the sea (TERRITORY), , and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”

            – His name: The LORD;
            – His Title or Authority: Creator;
            – His area of rulership: Heaven and earth.

            The Jesuits attacked our KING’S SEAL a long time ago and made IT – “to none effect” even unto today!
            THEY knew the LEGALNESS of it’s importance.
            They knew it was our KING’S SEAL OF AUTHORITY upon us and His creation!

            This LEGAL Document cannot be overturned, annulled, or cancelled by Satan – it can only be attacked.

            Bless you sister.

          • Brenda Murphy

            @ word man~~~

            Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
            Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
            Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
            Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
            Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
            Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
            Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
            Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
            Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
            Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
            Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
            Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
            Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 🙂

          • WORD man

            “Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

            There are just 3 rules for proper Bible study, they are:
            – CONTEXT
            – CONTEXT
            – CONTEXT

            What Did Paul Mean by ‘Christ Is the End of the Law’?

            In Romans:10:4, Paul’s words are translated: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Regrettably, most translators render the Greek word telos simply as “end” instead of giving Paul’s INTENDED MEANING of that word in this CONTEXT. Reasoning incorrectly that faith makes the law void, they have adopted an illogical assumption that Paul plainly rejected in Romans:3:31. This passage reads: “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

            To discover the PROPER TRANSLATION of a word that can be used in more than one way, its CONTEXT has to be understood correctly before any effort is made to determine the right nuance of meaning that the author intended. Here is a simple example. One might ask a college student, “To what end are you attending college?” The word “end” in that context would refer to the “objective” or “goal” the student has in mind. Receiving a degree would be only the “end result” of his college years of learning, not the end to his ability or desire to learn.

            The Greek word telos, translated “end” in Romans:10:4, can convey variations in meaning, including “‘the aim or purpose’ of a thing” ( Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “End, Ending”). This is very clear in the New King James Version’s rendering of 1 Timothy:1:5, where telos is PROPERLY translated as PURPOSE in the clause “the purpose of the commandment is love.” In this same verse the NRSV translates telos as “AIM” and the NIV renders it as “GOAL.”

            Paul uses telos in Romans:10:4 to convey that the objective or goal of the law—the “AIM or PURPOSE” of it—is to point us to the mind and character of Jesus Christ (Galatians:4:19; Philippians 2:5).

            Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, is a perfect replica of what God’s law teaches. Pointing us to His character and work is the “AIM” of the law.

            Rendering of telos as “end” in Romans:10:4 DISTORTS Paul’s intended meaning — something Peter forcefully warns us not to do (2 Peter:3:15-16).

          • Brenda Murphy

            @ word man

            Yes, you proved my point there, we can make any scripture what we want it to say, now can’t we, but the truth is held in the heart, the Holy Ghost,(Comforter), teaches us of the truth…..so you can pronounce words all day, in the translations, but it boils down to who you know, not just what you think you know.

            Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

            Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

            Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 🙂

            Have a good evening!

          • SoccerMom

            To WORDman, Ruach and Fisher

            Thank you all so very much for clearing up a subject that should be understood and taught in the church. Now I know why it isn’t.
            I get it. I get he bigger picture. It’s not hard at all to see once you have the right perspective. And you guys explained it very well in my opinion and others. I have copied and saved all of your comments so I can share.
            Any Christian should know that the Bible explains itself like Ruach tried to show and even showed that the mark is obedience in Eze. 8-9 and is a template for today. like God said, you belong to who you obey. My husband approached a very well respected and prominent tv preacher ( we attended his church) a few years ago and asked him about Eze. 8-9 and the mark. The preacher was very evasive and didn’t want to talk about it. Now today we see certain tv preachers moving their flocks under the umbrella of the catholic church. My family and I, along with many of our friends stopped worshipping on Sundays a long time ago when we left there. People by the millions have their eye on the chip while the catholic church tightens the sunday laws around their necks! My heart is filled with grief and fear for them. the devil is so deceptive and evil. He is the master of it.
            I would really like to hear you comment on the laws that would help keep you from having to receive an rfid chip.

            I think that is what you suggested at one point when you said you studied law to combat against the political side of Babylon. You made it so clear that the catholic church is enforcing the Sunday laws while the USA is creating the chip and will enforce it. like you said the USA is an image of Rome. I have never heard anyone come remotely close to revealing such truth. It makes perfect sense. Thank you.
            I would think that since enforcing Sunday worship is based on law that there should be a legal way to oppose it also? I’m very interested in that for me and my family and friends since the chip is part of obamacare and I think that everyone is to get one by 2017. This is of great interestto me and others. Thank you Ruach.
            Don’t listen to Colonel Roy when he implied that you shouldn’t make comments on here anymore. I think he was wrong to do that. I think that there are many people on here that are listening closely but are not commenting. I actually found out about your comments thru a friend who has been on here and she doesn’t comment. I know her and her husband go directly to the Bible and check out everything that has been written by you and WORDman. Please keep commenting. I never knew about the Sunday laws. And how many millions of others that don’t know about it either! That was a tremendous shock. And then Fisher posted the news articles from around the world and the USA where the catholic church is behind bringing this law into effect. That was another shock. This should shake every Christian to their core. It doesn’t get any more clear for me. Not only me but our entire circle of home worshippers. We’ve been discussing the comments by you and Wordman for a while and today’s comments by Wordman makes understanding the Words of Jesus and Paul clear when speaking of the subject of law and all that it entails. The Bible certainly is a law book. Thank you Wordman.

            Thank you all. Please keep commenting.

        • “The chip is in production and has been 24/7 since 911.

          Sunday Laws – known as Blue laws – have been on the books

          for many, many years… just not enforced…yet.”

          @Ruach: I’m not saying such laws wont be involved, but I still don’t believe that Sunday Laws are the ‘mark of the beast’. Did you not watch videos detailing the RFID plans? I’d say global enslavement cuts the cake on things, however achieved? And the only way to enslave the masses properly into an integrated system is to use the chip. On top of it all the elite also plan to poison the wilderness areas, to prevent refugee effect. Therefore without the chip none could survive period. And if you doubt this all, then I suggest research into things 😉 Here is a clue into matters 😯

          http://youtu.be/7gwcQjDhZtI

      • Brenda Murphy

        @ Mark–
        Christ never broke a commandment, for he was Jewish and lived under the law!

        When He died on the cross, He gave us a new covenant, the New Testament, written in His blood.
        We do not have to observe the old laws, or feast days, or new moons that the Hebrews once did.

        Jesus took it all away, nailing it to his cross!

        Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
        Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
        Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
        Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
        Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
        Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
        Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
        Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

        Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
        Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
        Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
        Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
        Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
        Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
        Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
        Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

        And about Jesus eating of the corn on the Sabbath, some of it was left for the poor to eat, according to the old laws. He did not break one law.

        Here are the two greatest commandments, are we keeping them?

        Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
        Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
        Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
        Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
        Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
        🙂

        • “Christ never broke a commandment, for he was Jewish and lived under the law!”

          Brenda, the holy ‘law’ is a very controversial topic, but nevertheless I will offer my thoughts on things. What Jesus did is prove that the law was flawed, and Paul expounds on things later 😉

          Gal 3:10-13, 19-25 KJV – For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: … Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

          P.S. We can’t keep the holy law, because of it’s severe consequences, which was death in many cases, to offenders of the law. In fact the SDA’s are only fooling themselves by their supposed keeping of the Sabbath. Rather according to the actual strict severe Sabbath law, the SDA’s continually break it. And according to the Sabbath law they should all be stoned! 😯 Agreed? 😉

          • Brenda Murphy

            That’s right, Mark, agreed, the Gentiles were never under the old laws, anyways.

    • watchman48

      [He was kind and giving with a truly pure heart.]
      That statement alone for me would eliminate whatever you had to say… There is no man that seeks God with a truly pure heart.

    • Ort

      Where in scripture does it state that Mary, who went in to have other children as it explicitly states in the Bible, is the best interpreter of the Bible after Jesus?? You need to stop making things up and applying horrid exegesis of scripture!

    • Ort

      You need to provide scripture that corroborates what you just said. Wow.

  • Aaron

    Tony Palmer must of stepped on something, some woman had a dream back in June 23 about a man who was with the Pope, she could not see this man’s face but she said his days were numbered, in her dream she said he had witnessed something about this Pope, False Prophet made sure he couldn’t speak and Damien Star took him out!

    • Interesting about the doom dream, but who is Damien Star?

      P.S. All Popes are false prophets and corrupt 🙁

      The Vatican is steeped in the occult, just Like Washington DC. Fact is the whole world lies under the sway of the devil and his angels. Hard to explain with mere words though.

  • J. Mallord

    Liberty of Conscience Threatened

    Romanism is now regarded by Protestants with far greater favor than in former years. In those countries where Catholicism is not in the ascendancy, and the papists are taking a conciliatory course in order to gain influence, there is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome. The time was when Protestants placed a high value upon the liberty of conscience which had been so dearly purchased. They taught their children to abhor popery and held that to seek harmony with Rome would be disloyalty to God. But how widely different are the sentiments now expressed!

    The defenders of the papacy declare that the church has been maligned, and the Protestant world are inclined to accept the statement. Many urge that it is unjust to judge the church of today by the abominations and absurdities that marked her reign during the centuries of ignorance and darkness. They excuse her horrible cruelty as the result of the barbarism of the times and plead that the influence of modern civilization has changed her sentiments.

    Have these persons forgotten the claim of infallibility put forth for eight hundred years by this haughty power? So far from being relinquished, this claim was affirmed in the nineteenth century with greater positiveness than ever before. As Rome asserts that the “church never erred; nor will it, according to the Scriptures, ever err ” (John L. von Mosheim, Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, book 3, century II, part 2, chapter 2, section 9, note 17), how can she renounce the principles which governed her course in past ages?

    The papal church will never relinquish her claim to infallibility. All that she has done in her persecution of those who reject her dogmas she holds to be right; and would she not repeat the same acts, should the opportunity be presented? Let the restraints now imposed by secular governments be removed and Rome be reinstated in her former power, and there would speedily be a revival of her tyranny and persecution

    http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html

    The Great Controversy (Chapter 35 ~ Liberty of Conscience Threatened) Pages 563-564 ~ Author Ellen G. White 1858 first edition.

    • “Let the restraints now imposed by secular governments be removed and Rome be reinstated in her former power, and there would speedily be a revival of her tyranny and persecution”

      @J. Mallord: I do believe that’s what is coming, though none know exactly when, or what exact form the new religion will take. My guess it won’t be as it once was, or even is now, but rather a morphing into the new age religion thing. And the evidence is declaring itself at the UN.. The Temple of Understanding 😯

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-MFzflvHIM

      • J. Mallord

        @MRH, Sustainable Development at the UN level adhering to the grass roots of Local Agenda 21 and its NGO’s. This will transcend national governments. This is one possibility.

  • Tony

    Have any of you guys ever been over to CARM.org to debate with Catholics? The Protestant bunch, over there, Is much like you guys. I invite you all over there to debate with us Catholics.
    In Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
    Tony

    • Ort

      (Not accusing you)
      The one board I visited to debate Catholics was horrid. They were the rudest, most hateful people I have EVER encountered. I personally think such boards do not benefit anyone. Those who are in darkness will remain in darkness, and I personally could do without the fighting, which is VERY distressing. I do not believe it is a good idea. JMHO.

      • Tony

        I apologize for the way you were treated. I would always be respectful to you when discussing faith issues.

        • Ort

          I appreciate the apology, I really do. But you have not wronged me. ; )
          I will admit that I began to be angry and quarrelsome and rude myself, after being there and arguing for so long. All the abuse made me just as bad as they. It seriously made me act like a horrid, rude, unChristlike person. I don’t think that I could handle such a thing. It compromises my walk.
          For me, and I am only speaking for myself, it would be a baaaaad idea.
          But thank you for the invite, anyway. : )

    • Brenda Murphy

      What would we debate you guys about, lol?

      That sunday is not the Sabbath, there are more important things to debate, I think. No offense, but thanks anyways.

      • Tony

        If you want to debate the Lord’s Day is fine. If you want to debate other matters is fine also.

        • Brenda Murphy

          As you know, I only debate about the post-trib rapture.
          What do the catholics believe about that? 🙂

          Everybody believes they are the beast of Revelation, but this is not so.

          Many ‘religions’ have killed in the name of God, but it doesn’t mean that they all are the beast.
          There is only one…and it is rising, fast….again.

          • Tony

            Brenda wrote,

            “As you know, I only debate about the post-trib rapture.
            What do the catholics believe about that?”

            We do not believe in a “secret rapture” but if you are speaking about the rapture at occurs when Our Lord returns for Second Coming then we are good with that.

          • Brenda Murphy

            No, I do not believe in a secret rapture, either.
            Christ said that as lightning flashes from east to west, so would his coming be.
            They take it out of context.
            Everyone will see it, and know it, when it happens. 🙂

            The day of the Lord is a culmination of things.

            First, christ coming to get the dead and quick.
            We meet him in the air, he takes us back to heaven, where we will be around the throne of God praising him, upon the sea of glass. Note, this is for the martyrs, which came out of great tribulation.
            God will be pouring out his wrath, while we are in heaven with Christ.
            Then Christ will come back and destroy the antichrist, and false prophet. The martyrs will come back with him.
            He will set up his kingdom on earth for the millennial reign.
            satan will be chained at this time.
            then after the 1000 yrs., satan will be unchained, the armies will gather against Christ and the saints (martyrs). God will send fire from heaven and destroy them all, throwing the devil in hell, where the antichrist and false prophet are.
            The rest of the dead will be raised (great white throne judgment).
            Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth.
            Peace will reign evermore. 🙂

            Then God will create a new heaven and new earth.

          • Brenda Murphy

            TYpo-SAid God will create…too many times.

          • suez

            @Brenda, Amen Brenda about the name of Jesus!! Funny but, I’ve had many prayers answered in that name also. Plus I’ve cast out devils in that name, and they have gone! What a bunch of garbage people try to spew out here. I’m not Jewish and don’t used Jewish names, I am grafted into the vine, and God the Father doesn’t expect me to know Hebrew. I get along just fine with the name of Jesus Christ! Bless you sister!!! Keep on!!!

          • Brenda Murphy

            Hi, beloved Sister Sue–

            Yes, preach on!
            Jesus assured us of a better covenant, written in his precious blood.

            Yes, the demons recognize the name ‘Jesus’, and every knee will bow to that name, whether it be in Hebrew, Greek, or Latin. 🙂
            God knows every language, after all, he created them, LOLOL. …….LOLOLOL

            I LOVE THE WORD OF GOD, ENOUGH TO DIE FOR IT.
            PRAISE THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY !!!

            And all God’s children ( the ones that are under the precious blood of Jesus) say AMEN !!!

  • Charlotte

    Palmer was a false teacher and a useful tool of the papists and NWO. Promoted as coming in the spirit of Elijah, Palmer was ‘removed’ on the Catholic feast day commemorating Elijah the prophet (July 20th). Clearly, his removal was by design and was, I’d suggest, a signal: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD” (Malachi 4:5). The forces of evil in this world use the Bible as a script. Those who monitor these events should continue their watch in a state of heightened alert. Those who continue to side with and support the papists should reread Revelation 17 and 18 regarding the identity of “THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS”. God cannot lay it out any clearer than he has. Your willful blindness will be your undoing. “Come out of her, my people!”

    • “The forces of evil in this world use the Bible as a script”

      @Charlotte: Yes it oddly does seem that way doesn’t it? And when one script fades out into history, they create another, and so on. Multiple prophetic fulfillment. So the question then becomes, which script is the biblical intend?

      Case in point, the four beasts of Daniel. Once believed to be the four ancient kingdoms; Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, and Rome. However a similar uncanny match is made with four modern kingdoms; Great Britain / America, Russia, Germany / France, and NWO. Which match is correct, or are any yet?

      P.S. Satan doesn’t know the end time hour either, and so he must always continue the prophetic illusions. But at some point things are going to break, and truth will prevail. Personally I think we are close to the edge though now, as too much growing evidences.

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  • JC Snax

    Guys I grew up Catholic (recieved Christ), never read my bible, and had hard life. Then I went to a non denominational church (rededicated my life to Christ) and read the Word and did it. This is common but doesn’t mean that the entire Roman Catholic Denomination isn’t saved or is even the antichrist. Any person in ANY denomination or religion that does not have the Word of God (and do it) will not understand the fullness of who Christ is and who they are in Christ. We have a whopping 80% of believers that don’t even read their bible 5 minutes a day. That may be the problem right there. If you know the Word (and will) of God in the Word of God as well as even hear Him speak to you and lead your life, He will change your life. The Word grows you to be no more children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
    Lets say that Catholics are just like Muslims (unbelievers) or anyone else. God so LOVED the world that He gave His son to die for it. That was once us. Are you telling me that no one can get past their offences (That probably aren’t even your own, they were passed down by hearing things a lot of which might be lies) and have a heart to save these people and pray for them instead of bashing them because your afraid that something bad might get on you. I know my Jesus and He loves Catholics and The Pope. If you don’t believe so just ask Him. I’m serious, if you haven’t even prayed to God about what His real heart for these people are then thats just not good. Everyone wants to quote one scripture twisted and not using the whole council of Scripture including Mercy, Grace, Forgiveness. I can only say that if these 1.8 billion people even have 10% that really believe in Jesus then you are speaking filthy things about YOUR OWN BODY in Christ. Ephesians 4 is all about the unity of the body and ends with: (gentiles) are unbelievers in the passage

    This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[d] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

    20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

    Do Not Grieve the Spirit
    25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”[e] for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”:[f] do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

    Its horrible to think that people call themselves believers but then bash other believers and even people. God says don’t walk like unbelievers. Grab God’s real heart for people and what he wants to do. GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY – Or keep letting filthy communication come out of your mouth and fingers from typing this stuff online.

    • Brenda Murphy

      Good post, JC, and many good points.

      However, if one knows the truth and does not speak it, then the blood of many will be on our hands.

      I know we are to be like Christ, and show compassion, which we that try to pull others out of the fire, do.

      No one knows it all, as we see thru a glass, darkly.

      But if Christ tells us to give them the truth, then we should.
      Quench not the spirit.

      Thanks for those kind words. 🙂

  • Sunny

    For years and years we pray, and there is nothing 🙁 ! What is wrong???
    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/unanswered-prayers/

  • CrissCross
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  • Listening2all

    Kenneth Copeland’s parting words at the end of the video, at the 6.30min mark, to Rev. Tony Palmer were “Tony, thank you sir, by HELL you have blessed this place tonight”

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