Earliest Known Draft of 1611 King James Bible Is Found At Cambridge

Two pages from Samuel Ward’s translation for part of the King James Bible. An American professor who came upon the manuscript last fall at Cambridge says it is the earliest known draft for the King James translation, which appeared in 1611.
earliest-known-draft-of-1611-king-james-bible-found-cambridge-nteb

The King James Bible is the most widely read work in English literature, a masterpiece of translation whose stately cadences and transcendent phrases have long been seen, even by secular readers, as having emerged from a kind of collective divine inspiration.

“The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” Psalm 12:6,7 (KJV)

In an unassuming notebook held in an archive at the University of Cambridge, an American scholar has found what he says is an important new clue to the earthly processes behind that masterpiece: the earliest known draft, and the only one definitively written in the hand of one of the roughly four dozen translators who worked on it.

The notebook, which dates from 1604 to 1608, was discovered by Jeffrey Alan Miller, an assistant professor of English at Montclair State University in New Jersey, who announced his research on Wednesday in an article in The Times Literary Supplement.

While the notebook has yet to be examined by other scholars, experts who have reviewed Professor Miller’s research called it perhaps the most significant archival find relating to the King James Bible in decades.

David Norton, an emeritus professor at the Victoria University of Wellington in New Zealand and the author of several books about the King James Bible, called it “a major discovery” — if not quite equal to finding a draft of one of Shakespeare’s plays, “getting on up there.”

Gordon Campbell, a fellow in Renaissance studies at the University of Leicester and a consultant for the planned Museum of the Bible in Washington, said the new manuscript shed fresh light on how the King James translators actually did their work, as opposed to how they had been told to do it.

Studying the creation of the King James Bible “is like working with a jigsaw puzzle where 90 percent of the pieces are missing,” Mr. Campbell said. “You can arrange the surviving pieces as you wish, but then you find something new and you realize you put it together the wrong way.”

“Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?” Ecclesiastes 8:4 (KJV)

The King James Bible, published in 1611, was produced by six teams of translators, known as “companies,” in London, Oxford and Cambridge, who were charged with creating an authorized version that would support the Church of England against the Puritan influence seen in some earlier translations. Along with Shakespeare’s First Folio of 1623, it is one of the most influential books in the history of English and the wellspring of common phrases like “salt of the earth,” “drop in the bucket” and “fight the good fight,” to name only a few.

While some records of the committee that supervised the overall translation survive, only three manuscripts of the text itself have been known to exist until now. The Bodleian Library at Oxford owns nearly complete drafts of the Old Testament and the Gospels, in the form of corrected pages of the Bishops’ Bible, a 16th-century translation that the King James teams used as a base text. Lambeth Palace Library in London has a partial draft of the New Testament epistles.

Professor Miller discovered the manuscript last fall, when he was in the archives at Sidney Sussex College in Cambridge, researching an essay about Samuel Ward, one of the King James translators and, later, the college’s master. He was hoping to find an unknown letter, which he did.

“I thought that would be my great discovery,” he recalled.

But he also came across an unassuming notebook about the size of a modern paperback, wrapped in a stained piece of waste vellum and filled with some 70 pages of Ward’s nearly indecipherable handwriting.

The notebook had been cataloged in the 1980s as a “verse-by-verse biblical commentary” with “Greek word studies, and some Hebrew notes.” But as Professor Miller tried to puzzle out which passages of the Bible it concerned, he realized what it was: a draft of parts of the King James Version of the Apocrypha, a disputed section of the Bible that is left out of many editions, particularly in the United States.

“There was a kind of thunderstruck, leap-out-of-bathtub moment,” Professor Miller said. “But then comes the more laborious process of making sure you are 100 percent correct.”

The draft, Professor Miller argues, dates from between 1604, when the King James Bible was commissioned, and 1608, when the six teams were asked to send their work to the general committee for review. Unlike the other surviving drafts, which scholars date to later parts of the process, it shows an individual translator’s initial puzzling over aspects of the Greek text of the Apocrypha, indicating the reasoning behind his translation choices, with reference to Hebrew and Latin as well.

“You can actually see the way Greek, Latin and Hebrew are all feeding into what will become the most widely read work of English literature of all time,” Professor Miller said. “It gets you so close to the thought process, it’s incredible.”

The draft, he argues, also complicates one long-cherished aspect of the “mythos,” as he put it, surrounding the King James: that it was a collaborative project through and through.

The companies were charged with doing their work as a group, rather than subdividing it by assigning individual books to individual translators, as was the case with the Bishops’ Bible. But the Ward notebook, Professor Miller said, suggests “beyond a reasonable doubt” that at least some of the companies ignored the instructions and divided up the work among individuals, at least initially.

Further, he said, the notebook contains a complete draft for the book of the Apocrypha known as 1 Esdras, but then, after a run of blank pages, only a partial manuscript for the book known as the Wisdom of Solomon, suggesting that Ward picked up the slack for another translator.

“Some of them, being typical academics, either fell down on the job or just decided not to do it,” Professor Miller said, with a laugh. “It really testifies to the human element of this kind of great undertaking.”

In recent years, scholars have chipped away at the idea of Shakespeare’s plays as the product of an isolated genius, emphasizing instead the intensely collaborative nature of Elizabethan theater. Professor Miller said that the origins of the other great monument of 17th-century English literature is due for a similar reconsideration.

“There’s a strong desire to see the King James Bible as a uniform object, and a belief that it’s great because of its collaborative nature,” Professor Miller said. “It was incredibly collaborative,” he continued. “But it was done in a much more complicated, nuanced, and at times individualistic way than we’ve ever really had good evidence to believe.” source

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • Suez

    .

    • ProphGuys

      Something you need to know about prophecy!
      http://goo.gl/T62Tr8

    • LEVONNE GRYDER

      The 1599 Geneva Bible was the one the Puritans used, Its also the one that KING JAMES replaced with his own version. NO ONE was allowed to read the Geneva Bible because of the truths in it. Weather you like it or not, KING JAMES was NOT A GOOD GUY. THAT is why we left ENGLAND because of the KING JAMES BIBLE, we wanted freedom to worship the way GOD wanted us too. So essentially the KING JAMES bible is a Government Publication,
      DONT BELIEVE ME? DO THE RESEARCH YOURSELF,

      • carrierwave

        Geneva Bible study notes on Daniel 10:13 and 12:1 clearly teach that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

        “(h) Meaning Cambyses, who reigned in his father’s absence,

        and did not only for this time hinder the building of

        the temple, but would have further raged, if God had

        not sent me to resist him: and therefore I have stayed

        for the profit of the Church.

        (i) Even though God could by one angel destroy all the

        world, yet to assure his children of his love he sends

        forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ

        Jesus the head of angels.”

        One of the major drawbacks of the Geneva bible are several heretical notes.

    • LEVONNE GRYDER

      Also the Geneva Bible is the one that the pilgrims used, not the king james.

      http://www.reformedreader.org/gbn/en.htm

  • Roland

    The modern day Church of England, should go back and pour over this work – but I doubt it would have any effect, on the beast which they have created!

  • Bro. Nick

    My personal understanding and opinion is that this ‘find’ will be used by ‘the experts’ of modern day anti-GOD academia to further their attempts to ‘tear down’ and discredit the very Godly men that have been long-dead in their “Holy Spirit” led giving to the world “the word of the Lord”, the Holy Bible ~ KJV.

    The comments
    -1- ‘The draft, he argues, also complicates one long-cherished aspect of the “mythos,” as he put it, surrounding the King James: that it was a collaborative project through and through.’
    -2- ‘In recent years, scholars have chipped away at the idea of Shakespeare’s plays as the product of an isolated genius, emphasizing instead the intensely collaborative nature of Elizabethan theater. Professor Miller said that the origins of the other great monument of 17th-century English literature is due for a similar reconsideration.’
    – these are but two examples of modern-day academic assumptions and pre-conceived agendas by those who have made no statement of faith in “Christ Jesus”.

    Years ago, I was on a team that wrote an original ‘training manual’. I kept personal notes to be used when I got back with the other team members to be considered in the writing. Does that prove that I worked separately to write that manual – NO – it meant that I had made notes to be considered by the team.

    That which was written so long ago in “the scripture of truth” still does hold true:
    “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
    neither were thankful;
    but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,”
    (Romans 1:21-22, KJB)
    .

  • Jim Eckland

    Does the KJV Translation have a form of Copyright on it and do royalties need to be paid when one uses it?

    • crimson

      Yes & NO. The copyright is the CROWN of England. It is to be read in all the churches. No royalties, you just can’t tamper with it. Sodomites in the 80’s tried to alter this because they are offended by the fact the Authorized version calls them sodomites. (which they are) they lost because of the Crown of England. The LORD is a great Lawyer. 🙂 Use as many verses as you want, for books sermons, etc. You can download pdfs of it online and print it off to your hearts content. There are Ministries who print KJV Bibles and translate ACCURATELY KJV for missions here and oversees.

  • Larry / vietnamvet1971

    Interesting, will follow.

  • John

    One thing we know for sure: Those translators were posttribulationalists, which is why they cross-referenced Matthew 24:29-31 with 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52:

    http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611-Bible/originalscans.php?book=Matthew&chapter=24&verse=29

    • Tim

      Pray to God to interpret the scriptures for you and you will see that there will and cannot be a rapture before the Tribulation. Mark 13:24-26 reads virtually the same as Matthew 24:29-31, which the scholars claims is “only for the Jews”. Yet how could that be when Mark 13:37 – which is the last verse in that chapter – says this: “And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch”. God showed me the truth on this matter, he can show you all as well if you ask him sincerely without letting your biases get in the way. Otherwise you will only hear what you want to hear. Also, you confuse the Tribulation with God’s wrath. That comes after Jesus returns in the clouds. And then there is the parable of the wheat and the tares, which says that the tares, which are the sinners, are gathered first. I trust God more than man, so I am confident this is true and that pre-trib is a deception, for it gives people a second chance, when there is no second chamce when Jesus returns. No one shall be saved after He returns. God does not work in secrecy, only Satan does that. I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth.

      • carrierwave

        I hear many preface “their” interpretation with, “God showed me the truth.” I think it is arrogant and an insult to God with such claims, that somehow God personally gave special anointing to your eyes and brain, above fellow believers. IF GOD actually “showed” EVERYONE the truth, then we would all agree, Right? Did it ever ocurr to you God is the only right one, and you might be mistaken?? The only command is to “study” and be “apporoved unto God”, a “workman” who is not “ashamed”. That means(by not sliding in his or her own bias). Why not just give your “evidence” and let it stand or fall in it’s own merits instead of using pious intimidations, “God showed me, so you are wrong”!

      • kiwiwatcher

        Ah there you are again John – the deceitful one. Keeping an eye on you. Again coming up with false opinion as though facts. Show where the translators believed the rapture was a latter event. Please do attempt to support your falsehoods with evidence.

        Tim, and Watchman on the Wall – have any of you actually sat down with your King James Bible and read/studied the Rapture Series on this site??

        • John

          Goodness, can you knock off the childishness for once?

          I provided the link, which should bring Matt. 24 right up. Look at the margins, and you will clearly see the cross-references.

          • Bro. Nick

            John – You do continue to use Rule #2
            ‘Become incredulous and indignant – Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the “How dare you!” gambit.’

            As “the Lord Jesus Christ” personally said in Matthew, Chapter 15 ~ KJV:
            [7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
            [8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips;
            but their heart is far from me.
            [9] But in vain they do worship me,
            teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
            – see Isaiah 29:13-17 ~ KJV
            .

          • John

            Bro. Nick,

            My observation of you is that you don’t add much to the discussion, and you deride the wrong people. I posted a comment, and kiwiwatcher came in guns blazing. Where is your reprimand for him?

          • kiwiwatcher

            An apology John….you indeed have supplied ‘your’ evidence.

            And here is my reply.

            The 1611 KJV Bible has indeed seen several revisions – 1613, 1629, 1638, 1644, 1664, 1701, 1744, 1762, 1769, and the final one in 1850. The concern over the validity of the modern KJV Bible is silly because the vast majority of the changes were simply spelling changes or single word updates.

            The point is John – you are not showing me a scriptural document written in pre or about 1611.

            1 John 4:1
            “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

            And I apologize John for referring to your deception on a previous posting.

          • John

            Thank you for the apology, Kiwiwatcher. I’d rather get back on the right foot, because my tone has been harsh as well.

            I wasn’t questioning the validity of the KJV. I was only pointing out that the 1611 translators were posttribulationalists based on their cross-references.

            Peace.

      • EDWARD

        I guess then scripture will offend you Zechariah 13 What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer,The wounds I was given at the house of my friends .Their eyes will be opened . Well this is when Jesus returns and the many of the Jews will believe ..

      • John

        Tim, you’re preaching to the choir.

    • kiwiwatcher

      My point is John, you have not supported your claim that “translators were posttribulationalists”

      Jumping onto a website and showing lately revised scriptures called 1611 is NOT evidence.

      • John

        Read the top headings. Those are photocopies/pictures from the actual, original 1611 KJV. If anything has been edited, it’s more recent versions.

        • kiwiwatcher

          John, John, John – goodness me. When does it stop??

          The very original 1611 scriptures….the first ones from the inspired scholars……DO NOT EXIST. We only have copies.

          The word Original that you read on the website – is a trading brand…..a marketing ploy……something you should be familiar with if shopping. ‘Ole original’ etc

          What amazes me John….is the lengths you go to….to avoid Scriptural Truths.

          But lets say…..if for a small moment in time, I believed your erroneous assumption that the 1611 translators had referenced Matthew 24:29-31 with 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52:

          Then it would be included to show they are two different events….hence the reference.

          Matthew says that the Son of man “shall send his angels to gather his elect.” These “elect” are found in Isaiah 45:4, 65:8-9, and Romans 11:26. They are Israel, NOT the church.

          Paul says that we will “rise to meet the Lord in the air.”

          Matthew says that the saints “will be gathered together” by his angels. There is no mention of meeting Jesus in the air.

          The two events are NOT the same thing.

          Paul tells that when the Lord comes to get the church, that he will do so with a “SHOUT.”

          Matthew, of course, doesn’t say anything about a “shout.”

          Paul tells us that in addition to this “shout,” we will here the voice of “the archangel.” There is only one “archangel” mentioned by name in the Bible and that is Michael. So evidently, we are going to hear Michael say SOMETHING when we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air

          Matthew, of course, doesn’t say anything about an archangel, or any other angel for that matter, saying ANYTHING.

          Paul tells us that we shall hear “the trump of God.” Now many mistake the word “trump” for being a trumpet, but this is not the case at all. A “trump” is the SOUND that a trumpet makes, not the instrument itself.

          Matthew tells that the saints in Matthew 24 shall hear the sound of “a great trumpet.”

          When 1 Thessalonians 4 is compared with 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, we note that the rapture is said to take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” Scientifically, “the twinkling of an eye” is said to be approximately 1/100,000th of a second. In other words, when the rapture of the church takes place, it will happen DRAMATICALLY FAST.

          Matthew makes no mention of “a moment” or “a twinkling of an eye.” There is no reference whatsoever to how quickly the angels shall “gather his elect.” There is certainly no indication that this will be done in the same manner of what Paul discussed.

          But as I said……you are NOT gazing upon the original 1611 scriptures but a much later revised copy which has included references in the margins.

          As the Word of God says – in the latter days, man will be deceived, and you John, are gobbling it up like a hungry man.

          1 Timothy 4:1
          Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

          • kiwiwatcher

            John – the ‘Original 1611’ KJV should have two classic errors of text that were made in the day.

            About 1000 original copies rolled off the printing presses.

            The first error was in Ruth where ‘he/she went into the city’

            The ‘Original 1611’ you referred to
            Ruth 3:15 “…and he went into the citie.”

            Today’s KJV with the corrected text.
            Ruth 3:15 “….and she went into the city.”

            So far so good….so its possibly an original edition.

            The second error in an original 1611 Bible was in Matthew and switched (of things) Jesus for Judas.

            Your referred ‘Original 1611’
            Matthew 26:36. “Then commeth Iesus with them vnto a place called Gethsemane….”

            Today’s KJV
            Matthew 26:36 “Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane…”

            Both the same. Unfortunately John, your referenced ‘Original 1611’ on the internet has only one error and therefore does not even include the original text from 1611.

            1 John 4:1
            “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

          • John

            You said: “John, John, John – goodness me. When does it stop??”

            You need to grow up. I’m a 47 year-old man with 14 years of postgraduate education, so take your condescending attitude somewhere else. You can say my name once. This isn’t kindergarten.

            You said: “The very original 1611 scriptures….the first ones from the inspired scholars……DO NOT EXIST. We only have copies.”

            I don’t know where you got that from, but it’s patently false. What do you think this is we’re talking about here? The NT Greek manuscripts on papyrus, and scriptoriums? The printing press was in full swing. The originals have been purchased by collectors.

            By the way, I have the most shocking news in the world for you: Even if we were only talking about copies of the originals, what do you think the KJV translators were using? The originals?

            What’s more, What would it mean if those cross-references were added later? That would do just as well to prove posttribulationalism by later editors.

            In any case, if you believe that website didn’t actually scan the “actual, original, first printing of the 1611 King James Version”, like it says, then you have every right to sue them for false advertising. I’ll leave that to your discretion.

            You said: “But lets say…..if for a small moment in time, I believed your erroneous assumption that the 1611 translators had referenced Matthew 24:29-31 with 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52: Then it would be included to show they are two different events….hence the reference.”

            That’s absolute rubbish. Cross-references are NOT provided to contrast one point with a CONTRARY view or scenario, unless SPECIFICALLY indicated.

            “Cross reference” (from Merriam-Webster Dictionary):

            \ˈkrȯs-ˈre-fərn(t)s, -ˈre-f(ə-)rən(t)s\
            noun
            : a note in a book (such as a dictionary) that tells you where to look for more information
            Full Definition
            :a notation or direction at one place (as in a book or filing system) to pertinent information at another place
            Try again.

            You said: “Matthew says that the Son of man ‘shall send his angels to gather his elect.’ These ‘elect’ are found in Isaiah 45:4, 65:8-9, and Romans 11:26. They are Israel, NOT the church.”

            Kiwiwatcher, Kiwiwatcher, Kiwiwatcher! Perhaps you need to read the rest of the NT, where (with the exception of one instance in which it refers to angels) “elect” refers to Christians each time it’s used.

            You said: “Paul says that we will ‘rise to meet the Lord in the air.’ Matthew says that the saints ‘will be gathered together’ by his angels. There is no mention of meeting Jesus in the air.”

            Is that right? Matt. 24:31 says that the elect are gathered from “the four winds”. That’s the sky:

            Rev. 7:1- “And after these things I saw four angels standing ON THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding THE FOUR WINDS of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

            From “one end of heaven to the other”. How do you think they get there? Pogo sticks? Air Jordans?

            You said: “The two events are NOT the same thing. Paul tells that when the Lord comes to get the church, that he will do so with a ‘SHOUT.’ Matthew, of course, doesn’t say anything about a ‘shout.'”

            That’s an argument from silence, and hurts your cause. Why? Because in 1 Cor 15, Paul says nothing about a “shout”:

            1 Corinthians 15:52- “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

            So if your “evidence” for a pretrib rapture is that every single detail isn’t present in every single passage, then you have effectively killed your own argument.

            You said: “Paul tells us that in addition to this “shout,” we will here the voice of “the archangel.” There is only one “archangel” mentioned by name in the Bible and that is Michael. So evidently, we are going to hear Michael say SOMETHING when we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air Matthew, of course, doesn’t say anything about an archangel, or any other angel for that matter, saying ANYTHING.”

            Again, good luck showing any archangel in 1 Cor 15. While you’re at it, go ahead and also show one in Rev. 4:1.

            You said: “Paul tells us that we shall hear “the trump of God.” Now many mistake the word “trump” for being a trumpet, but this is not the case at all. A “trump” is the SOUND that a trumpet makes, not the instrument itself.”

            Any Greek scholar would laugh that argument to scorn. It’s the SAME Greek word for both: “salpigx”. Even a casual reading of 1 Cor 15:52 proves you wrong:

            1 Corinthians 15:52- “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

            Same word. And how does Webster’s define “trump”?

            1a :trumpet
            b chiefly Scottish :jew’s harp
            2:a sound of or as if of trumpeting

            Try again.

            You said: “Matthew tells that the saints in Matthew 24 shall hear the sound of “a great trumpet.”

            I guess that was a Freudian slip. I like how you used the word “saints” interchangeably with “elect”, even though you earlier claimed that “elect” refers to Israel.

            You said: “When 1 Thessalonians 4 is compared with 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, we note that the rapture is said to take place ‘in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.’

            Oh really? In 1 Thess 4, Paul said we meet the Lord in the air “in the twinkling of an eye”? No, he did not. By your reasoning, every minutia of detail must be there in order for the same event to be described.

            You said: “Matthew makes no mention of ‘a moment’ or ‘a twinkling of an eye.’ There is no reference whatsoever to how quickly the angels shall ‘gather his elect.’ There is certainly no indication that this will be done in the same manner of what Paul discussed.”

            Again, 1 Thess 4 makes no mention of “a moment” or “a twinkling of an eye”. For that matter, neither does Rev. 4:1. Rev. 4:1 doesn’t even mention the preceding resurrection of the dead, or the Lord’s appearing.

            So what, pray tell, have you proven? That you can argue non sequiturs?

            Differences between 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:

            1)1 Thess 4 doesn’t describe “the last trump”, whereas 1 Cor 15 does.

            2)1 Cor 15 doesn’t describe a voice/shout, whereas 1 Thess 4 does.

            3)1 Cor 15 doesn’t describe any angels, whereas 1 Thess 4 does.

            4)1 Cor 15 doesn’t describe us meeting the Lord in the air, whereas 1 Thess 4 does.

            5)1 Thess 4 doesn’t describe anyone being “changed”, whereas 1 Cor 15 does.

            Now then, I seriously doubt any pretrib teacher would dare suggest that 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 are two distinct events. Yet that’s exactly what they try to do when attempting to claim that Matt. 24:29-31 is different from 1 Thess 4:14-17. Pretrib argues that 1 Thess 4 is a pretrib rapture, just because Paul doesn’t specifically describe the Lord’s feet touching the ground. I don’t think they realize that in Matt. 24:29-31 (which is clearly a description of the Lord’s posttrib return), the Lord doesn’t specifically describe His feet touching the ground either.

            Additionally, in 2 Thess 1:6-10, which is clearly a reference to Armageddon, Paul didn’t specifically describe the Lord’s feet touching the ground. Should we then believe that Paul is describing another coming altogether?

            For that matter, Rev. 19:14-21 doesn’t describe the Lord’s feet touching the ground. Should we believe that the Lord doesn’t come all the way to Earth, just because that detail is missing?

            So that argument is a non sequitur.

            Also, is Revelation 19:11-21 describing a different event than Matthew 24:29-31, just because no horses are described in Matthew 24, and no clouds are described in Revelation 19?

            Yet again, that’s exactly the type of argument pretribulationism tries to make in pointing out differences between 1 Thess 4 and Matthew 24:29-31, when they argue that any difference must mean two separate events.

            The rapture and posttrib second coming are one and the same.

        • kiwiwatcher

          John….read very carefully and extract from the above POST provided by brother Geoffrey…..and compare it with your thoughts….that you indeed were gazing upon an Original 1611 Bible

          “While some records of the committee that supervised the overall translation survive, only three manuscripts of the text itself have been known to exist until now. The Bodleian Library at Oxford owns nearly complete drafts of the Old Testament and the Gospels, in the form of corrected pages of the Bishops’ Bible, a 16th-century translation that the King James teams used as a base text. Lambeth Palace Library in London has a partial draft of the New Testament epistles.”

          • kiwiwatcher

            47 year old Dr John, who unfortunately does not list the Holy Spirit amongst his credentials.

            Just stick with the matter at hand please, rather than blustering about.

            And yes, I do need corrected from time to time….but my doctrine is quite sound.

            But methinks the good doctor doth protest too much

            First things first. Show the world where the translators of the King James Bible placed references in the margin as you gleefully pointed out. “One thing we know for sure: Those translators were posttribulationalists, which is why they cross-referenced Matthew 24:29-31 with 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52:”

            I pointed out that your ‘evidence’ was not an original copy of the King James Bible 1611, so am still waiting on it………waiting.

            As you said – “read the top headings.” You do make me laugh. Why would an internet based ‘heading’ bear any more truth than the divinely inspired Word of God.

            Printing errors were made, not translator errors, which allows the ease of dating which copy you are presenting. So now can you show me how you know the original translators placed the cross-references in the margin please, and the date of your ‘original 1611.’

            You’ve got the time and education, so I will look forward to your findings.

            As we read in Thessalonians 51Ad – people were preaching a false post-tribulation doctrine which Paul warned against so I would expect to see some of their attempted handiwork from that period, and today.

            A small reminder John
            NTEB – The Bible Believers Guide to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble.
            YOU – dr John said:
            October 13, 2015 at 5:27 pm
            “No sir. I go by Scripture alone.”

            But you lied, didn’t you dr John. You declared your piety to one person while spouting off various reports from theologians to another poster. Definitely not kindergarten, but very very deceitful. It is the character of a man dr John….not his 14 years of postgraduate education that counts. Would you agree? Praying you relax this weekend, away from the clinic.

  • Jewish Voice

    Unfortunately, the New Testament books in the 1611 Bible aren’t translated from the original Hebrew text but from the Greek translation…It’s full of errors and that’s why there is so much confusion out there and 101 denominations. There is no Bible Code running through it.

    • Jewish Voice

      For example, even the name of our Lord and Savior is wrong…His real name is Yeshua Meshiach not Jesus Christ…Meshiach is “of the House of David,” not Christ (Messiah)…There is no Jesus in Hebrew…Someone in the First or Second Century wanted to get the Jewishness out of the New Testament and so, after he translated the original Hebrew text into Greek, he either destroyed the original Hebrew text or had them stashed away in the Vatican somewhere…The Gentiles stole the Gospel from the Jews and then kicked the chosen people out of the movement (3 Jonn 9-10).

      • No, His Hebrew name is Yeshua, but in English it is Jesus. Both are equally “real”. His name is also but not limited to the following:

        The Door
        The Lamb
        The Good Shepherd
        Alpha
        Omega
        The First
        The Last
        King of Kings
        Lord of Lords

        • Bro. Nick

          Brother – may I correct 2 ‘typos’

          King of kings
          Lord of lords

      • Bro. Nick

        Jewish Voice – As I mentioned to you in another article – there is no historical evidence that ‘the New Testament’ was originally written in Hebrew – this is being said by followers of the ‘Hebrew Roots’ and ‘Sacred Names’ – and other movements that I know nothing about in these ‘last days’ of exponentially increases in ‘spiritual confusion, deceptions, delusions, deliberate deceits, etc …… ad nauseum.

        There is however very strong Biblically sound evidence that they were originally written in ‘Koine Greek’

        Your animosity against ‘the Gentiles’ is most unfortunate. Have you ever thought about that which is written in “the word of the Lord” in 1 John, Chapter 2, KJV:
        [8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you,
        which thing is true in him and in you:
        because the darkness is past,
        and the true light now shineth.
        [9] He that saith he is in the light,
        and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
        [10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light,
        and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
        [11] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness,
        and walketh in darkness,
        and knoweth not whither he goeth,
        because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

        My choice is to believe what “the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy” ~ “the LORD JEHOVAH” says about “the Word”:
        [5] Every word of God is pure:
        he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
        [6] Add thou not unto his words,
        lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

        AND in Psalm 138 ~ KJV:
        [1] I will praise thee with my whole heart:
        before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
        [2] I will worship toward thy holy temple,
        and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
        FOR THOU HAS MAGNIFIED THY WORD ABOVE ALL THY NAME.

        – CAPITALization of “the word of the Lord” is mine for emphasis – Bro. Nick

        • Bro. Nick

          [5] Every word of God is pure:
          he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
          [6] Add thou not unto his words,
          lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
          (Proverbs, Chapter 30, KJB)

          Please excuse another ‘typo’ – Bro. Nick

        • Jewish Voice

          Bro. Nick, there are only nine books in the Bible written for you Gentiles…Only the Gentiles that are grafted into our “Jewish” Olive tree will make heaven (Romans 11:17)…Unfortunately for you, the number of righteous Gentiles left in America is so “small” now that God can’t spare this country from the nuclear annihilation to come (Jeremiah 25:32-33)…God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah if there were only ten (Genesis 18:32) and so you can image how small the number is for America…You Gentiles have bastardize the Gospel and have been persecuting and killing millions of us Jews for almost 2000 years – all in the name of this Jesus…Shame. shame on you.

          • Bro. Nick

            Jewish Voice – Do you realize that you are declaring yourself to be a ‘latter day prophet’ when you prophesy that it will be by ‘nuclear annihilation to come’ that will destroy ‘Amerika’?

            In “the scripture of truth” that I read and believe, “the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy”, “the Lord God Almighty” says of Himself:
            [8] ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
            neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
            [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
            so are my ways higher than your ways,
            and my thoughts than your thoughts.
            (Isaiah, Chapter 55, KJB)

            Very fortunately for me – and for every other Gentile person that you hate and condemn – you cannot limit the number of books in “the word of God” that apply to those of us who are Biblically “born again” believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” – CHRISTians who are both Jew and Gentile.
            Have you ever considered that the Apostles Peter and Paul did not hate those of us who are Gentile believers and followers of “JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS”?

            My choice is to believe and trust only that which is written in “the word of the Lord”:
            [7] For there are three that bear record in heaven,
            the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
            and these three are one.
            [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth,
            the Spirit, and the water, and the blood:
            and these three agree in one.
            – [9] If we receive the witness of men,
            ~ THE WITNESS OF GOD IS GREATER:
            for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
            (1 John, Chapter 5, KJB)

            And as “our beloved brother Paul” wrote:
            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
            and is profitable for doctrine,
            for reproof,
            for correction,
            for instruction in righteousness:
            That the man of God may be perfect,
            throughly furnished unto all good works.”
            (1 Timothy 3:16-17, KJB)

            – CAPITALization and emphasis of “the words of the Lord” are mine – Bro. Nick

          • Gentiles are not grafted into Israel, we are grafted in the Jesus.

  • truthmatters

    It’s not the only true God Word bible dear .1611 KJ Pure Catholicism at work .80 books within it .The foolish claim the KJ Is the only true bible .It’s like a cult .The KJB Is full of outdated words that have completely lost their meaning in modern world . God word does not return void folks .I been told by these KJB Only folks that I going to hell because I read other bible too .A lot of these folks who are KJB Are also lost in Calvinism ..While Catholics is also false ,they were involved with 1611 KJB http://www.ncregister.com/…/how-Catholicism-contributed… How Catholicism Contributed to the King James Bible .“Many of the original Bibles that formed the basis of the King James Bible came from Catholic priests. Very few changes were made. The ancient writings that the King James writers actually mimicked and copied were by Catholic priests,” he explained.

    • Salvation is based on what you do with Jesus Christ, not bible versions. However, your Christian growth is definitely dependant upon what Bible you believe (1 Peter 2:2 KJV). Those who don’t use believe that the KJV is God’s infallible words in English don’t believe that ANY bible is God’s infallible words in English. Like atheist, they’re true motive is to live their lives in subjection only to themselves and not what God says.

      • Bro. Nick

        Jimmy – Thank you Brother for your Biblically sound response – for you ‘cut to the heart of the matter’.

        I was wondering what to write in response?

        Thanks be unto “the only wise God” for those that have come to “know the certainty of the words of truth” – that:
        “Every word of God is pure:
        he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.”
        (Proverbs 30:5, KJB)
        .

  • mike watchinski

    What I do not see in all these “scholarly” discussions is the fact that there are two main “persons” interested the preservation and translation of the “original” scriptures:

    1. The Holy Spirit
    2. satan

    The Holy Spirit did not sit out in the hall while the translators set about their task of translation, waiting to see what they come up with.

    And in like manner, satan, in all his evilness, was not disinterested in the work.

    If the bible is God’s Word, then why do people think that there are mistakes in it? Is He not able to not only inspire the writers to write the first writings but to equally able to direct subsequent copies to keep his word pure?

    “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” (Psalms 12:6-7)

    And satan knows that the Word of God will never “pass away” (Mark 13:31) so, as the “author of confusion”, (1 Corinthians 14:33) he has flooded the English speaking market with multitudes of “new” translations that will help the reader to really “understand” the bible while he/she reads through the scriptures in a year. All the while producing the contemporary “christian” who cannot pass fifth grade Sunday School.

    If God has left the copying and translating to the a “committee” with no oversight and protection from the Holy Spirit, and open to the wiles of the devil, then I would agree that there are mistakes and no bible is the word of God. But He has promised to keep his word so I just have to believe the one which is given by him that is “impossible to lie” (Hebrews 6:18).

    If my KJV has mistakes in it, then how do I know that there is a man named Jesus?

    You might do well to read/ study and memorize Psalms 119 for starters.

    Looking…

    • Bro. Nick

      mike watchinski – I totally concur with your comment. My closest Brother in “Christ Jesus” is an itinerant, non-denominational, KJV Pastor in Kenya – and he was led to tell me about Proverbs 22:17-21, KJV. It has become one of the most meaningful Scriptures that I have ever learned for I now “know the certainty of the word of truth”

      It is interesting that you suggest learning Psalm 119 – I have given it some thought, but have been personally ‘led’ (Psalm 119:133, KJB) to learn various verses from throughout “the scripture of truth”, which is “the word of the Lord”, the Holy Bible, KJV

      You may be interested in the following article, updated in 2014, with a list of 395+ different Bibles and New Testaments in the English language –
      ‘HOLY BIBLEs in ENGLISH: TRANSLATIONS, EDITIONS, REVISIONS, VERSIONS & UPDATES’
      http://www.net-comber.com/bible-year.html

      “Iron sharpeneth iron;
      so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.”
      (Proverbs 27:17, KJB)
      .

  • Jewish Voice

    Yes, Yeshua does have these other names that you have listed but not Christ…There is overwhelming evidence, both historical and linguistic, that shows that the texts were originally written in Hebrew,
    including the “finds” at the digs and Dead Sea Scrolls…Even some of the early church fathers quoted directly from the original Hebrew test, proving their existence in the first and possibly second centuries…Josephus wrote in his two books that Hebrew was the language of first century Jews and that any self-respecting Jew would rather eat swine than learn Greek…Sure, some of the educated Jews knew Greek but not the uneucated fishermen (Acts 4:13).

    • Shalom

      Apostle Paul – “a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes”

      – Acts 24:5

      The fourth century “church father,” Epiphanius –

      “But these sectarians…did not call themselves Christians–but “Nazarenes,” … However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do… They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion– except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that God is one, and that his son is Yeshua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the… Writings… ARE READ IN HEBREW, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law–circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest– they are not in accord with Christians…. they are nothing but Jews…. They have the Good News according to MATTHEW in its entirety IN HEBREW. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN.”

      – (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

  • kiwiwatcher

    2 Thessalonians 2:3
    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

    The term “falling away” of the Bible translation above is derived from the Greek noun apostasia.

    The Latin Vulgate – St. Jerome’s Latin Bible translation from the late fourth-century (prior to all English translations below) used discessio which translates as “departure”.

    E. Schuyler English, one of the finest Greek scholars translates this word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as “the departure”.
    The first seven English Bible translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either the “the departure” or “the departing”.

    Wycliffe Bible (1384)
    Tyndale Bible (1526)
    Coverdale Bible (1539)
    Cranmore Bible (1539)
    Breeches Bible (1576)
    Beza Bible (1583)
    Geneva Bible (1608)

    Why The King James Bible of 1611 was the FIRST to actually change the above translation from “departure” to “falling away,” has my interest.

    • Bro. Nick

      kiwiwatcher – You ask – ‘Why The King James Bible of 1611 was the FIRST to actually change the above translation from “departure” to “falling away,” ‘

      These are my personal thoughts. For a background – I am a high school graduate from 50+ years ago, with only 3 completed college courses since then – all in math. I have absolutely NO Bible School or formal theological training.
      A few years ago I came to the personal Biblical understanding that “a falling away” has a ‘dual meaning’
      -1- “a falling away” from true Biblical faith into Apostasy – which is in the process of being fulfilled:
      “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:…”
      (2 Thessalonians 2:7a, KJB)
      – – – AND
      -2- “a falling away” aka ‘departure’ aka ‘the pre-millenial Rapture’ of “the church”:
      “: …only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.”
      (2 Thessalonians 2:7b, KJB)”

      If you have any Biblical thoughts – I would very much appreciate them – Bro. Nick
      .

  • kiwiwatcher

    Thank you Brother Nick for your time and blessings to you.
    Your skill base is most appropriate and appreciated.

    And whew! I’ve been everywhere, in prayer, and delving into theological corners (gulp) in a complete circle to conclude exactly what you have presented.
    (I have no interest in discussing the topic, other than with previously acknowledged brothers and sisters.)

    Brother Nick…will add a few details if I may.
    Apostasia (as a noun) was only used previously in Acts 21:21 and translated into “forsake.” So will present a segment so the context can be grasped. This took place prior to Paul revealing his ‘mystery.’

    Acts 21:18-21
    “And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to FORSAKE Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

    So in this case ‘apostasia’ appears to be ‘abandonment of the truth,’ which fits with the discussion.

    My KJV rightly shows ‘apostasic’ (as in the original Greek) to be included with the definite article which then becomes ‘the apostasic’ – which now becomes an event, or an organised movement…..”except there come the falling away first….”

    Some theologians have stretching the phase to be ‘the (physical) departure,’ – and I am not willing to go there, as the rapture has occurred in 2 Thess 2:1, so why mention it again.
    Must be led by the Spirit so will read further.

    1 Thess 5:16-17
    “Rejoice evermore.
    Pray without ceasing.”

  • carrierwave

    If I may interject some thoughts here. I would strongly contend the “falling away” must be interpreted by the ‘context’ of both Paul’s letters to the Thessalonian believers. Our home church did quite an extensive study on 1Thess. 4-5 and 2Thess. 2, and came to this conclusion, that Paul’s intent for writing both Letters, is to prepare the Thessalonian believers together, spirit, soul, and body for Christ’s coming at the ‘RAPTURE’.(1 Thess. 5:23). I believe it is good fine to go to other scriptures to get further ‘insights’, about the Greek word “apostisia”, but the immediate “context” should always rule the interpretation, especially in this case, where there is no identified, or named ‘object’ as to WHAT is “falling away” from WHERE.

    1 Thessalonians lays the initial ground work, and 2nd Thessalonians was apparently written to clarify things Paul stated earlier in 1Thess.1 and because of a certain false teaching being spread about by an apparent “letter” or false teachers, about the rapture (resurrection) 2Timothy 2:18.

    False doctrine had been spread that “the resurrection was past already”. via false teachers Hymenaeus and Philetus. Interstingly, Hymenaeus’ name is that of the “pagan god of marriage”, and Philetus means “amiable” or “friendly”. So this erroneous teaching “the resurrection is past already” was being espoused by a demon spirit mimicking the message of the BRIDE uniting with the GROOM (resurrection/rapture), delivered in a “friendly, amiable”, persuasive way, causing the FAITH of some to be “overturned”!

    This is primarily what Paul was dealing with in 2 Thess. 4-5, FALSE TEACHING. So Paul’s endeavor was to calm fears, re-establish FAITH among believer, using corrective, instruction from stated truth Paul had previously taught them. 2Thess.2:5

    “Remember ye not, THAT,(the rapture) when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

    Let’s take this a step further now to the definition of “apostasia”. “The Greek word “apostasia” is a compound taken from two Greek words: “Apo” = “to depart from, or move away from”, “stasis” = “a position”, “a standing” or a “state”. Note: the built-in preposition, “apo” = “depart, (re)move away” This Greek preposition is attached to dozens of words in the N.T. determining how the word is used in a particular sentence.

    Literally, from its basic definition, “apostasia” means “to go away from”, or “depart”, or “change position, state or standing from one state to another”.

    As mentioned before, the “article” “the” preceding “apostasia”, makes this “a noted, single event”, not a random, repeated happening, no doubt, Paul, completely expects the Thessalonians to perfectly, understand WHAT “the” event is! This fact alone seems to completely rule-out the idea that this “Departure” is refering to a departure from “truth”, or the Gospel message, or Bible standard of living. This kind of activity was “happening” during Paul’s day, and has CONTINUED to happen at verying degrees throughout human history; ie, the “Dark Ages” and other numerous times of spiritual depression. There was no single “the” event associated with abandonment of “truth” in this scenario or in other passages in these 2 epistles.

    Once again, it MUST be the “context” only, that explains the “WHAT”. It can simply be found by asking yourself this question: “What single event found in the CONTEXT of both of Paul’s epistles, 1Thessalonians and 2nd Thessalonians fits a senario where something “departs away”, “changes position”, standing or state, “moves off”??? There can only be one answer–“the departure”, the “catching away” of, “the called out ones”, the SAINTS. 1Thess. 4:13-18

    • Bro. Nick

      carrierwave – Thank you for your comments. Your comments certainly do show a much more in depth study than the understanding that I have – about which I have no memory of anyone else agreeing with me.
      It is very refreshing to have a pleasant exchange of ideas – which I see and read fewer and ever-fewer of.

      Thank you again – Bro. Nick

    • John

      A Comprehensive Look At 2 Thessalonians 2:

      Much eschatological discussion centers around 2 Thess 2:1-3. I used to think (along with most others) that someone had told the Thessalonians that the “day of the Lord” was already upon them. However, now I believe otherwise. Look again at what Paul said:

      2 Thessalonians 2:2-3: “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means:…”.

      Paul gave them three potential ways that they/we might be deceived:

      1)”by spirit”
      2)”by word”
      3)”by letter”

      So for all we know, this was just a forewarning. There really is no proof contextually that anyone had tried to fool them…yet. Otherwise, why didn’t he just say “It’s been reported that someone wrote to you that…”, or “I was told that someone came to you saying…”

      But that’s not what Paul wrote. He gave three very distinct means by which they might be deceived. “By spirit” certainly seems to allude to the means of deception which Paul described in Galatians 1:

      Galatians 1:8- “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

      Or that John warned us about:

      1 John 4:1- “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

      That’s not to say that they weren’t confused. Pretrib uses an argument that the Thessalonians thought the rapture had already happened. Therefore, Paul must have previously told them that it would happen before the tribulation.

      However, Paul essentially chastises them in verse 5 for not remembering the true sequence he had given to them when he was with them:

      2 Thessalonians 2:5- “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

      So it doesn’t matter what the Thessalonians may or may not have believed, because they apparently hadn’t paid close enough attention. Paul was crystal clear to them in the 2nd epistle what the sequence of events would be:

      1)First, the “apostasy”, as well as the revealing of the “son of perdition”.

      2)THEN our gathering together unto the Lord (the “day of Christ”).

      These two markers would have to come to pass before we’re gathered together unto the Lord.

      As for “apostasia”, there is only ONE other place in the NT where that word is used, and it’s Acts 21:21:

      Acts 21:21- “And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (“apostasia”) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

      So it clearly refers to rebellion in terms of belief. Furthermore, in the 4 times in which “apostasia” is used in the Septuagint, it refers to rebellion every time:

      Joshua 22:22- “The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it in transgression against the Lord by apostasy (“apostasia”)…”

      2 Chron 29:19- “Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his apostasy (“apostasia”) have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the Lord.”

      2 Chron 33:19- “His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his apostasy (“apostasia”), and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.”

      Jer 2:19- “Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings (“apostasia”) shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts.”

      …and Apocrypha:

      1 Macc 2:15- “And they that were sent from king Antiochus came thither, to compel them that were fled into the city of Modin, to sacrifice, and to burn incense, and to depart (“apostasia”) from the law of God.”

      So there is no merit to the popular pretrib teaching that “apostasia” refers to a geographical departure (i.e. rapture). Were that the case, he could have easily used the same “harpazo” which he used in 1 Thess 4:17.

      And how is the son of perdition revealed? Paul tells us in verse 4:

      2 Thessalonians 2:4- “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

      This parallels what the Lord warned us we’d see:

      Matthew 24:15-16: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:”

      Matthew 24:21- “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

      Matthew 24:25- “Behold, I have told you before.”

      And when does He return for us?

      Matthew 24:29-31: “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

      Let me also quote 2 Thess 2:1 without the punctuation (being that punctuation wasn’t present in the Greek):

      2 Thessalonians 2:1- “Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him,”

      That word “coming” is the same Greek “parousia” which the Lord uses to describe His literal second coming in Matthew 24:27. There is no question that Paul has us “gathering together unto Him” at that time. In fact, the word for “gathering together” is the Greek “episynogagōgē”. It’s the noun form of “episynagō” (which the Lord uses in Matthew 24:31 to describe a post-tribulational gathering together of the elect), and also where we get the word “synagogue”.

      Matthew 24:31- “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together (Greek “episynagō”) his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

      Additionally, the Granville Sharp Rule is applicable here. That’s a grammatical rule in the Greek language. Here is what it says:

      When there are two nouns in the same case connected by “kai” (“and”), the first noun having the article “ho” (“the”), the second noun not having the article, the second noun refers to the same thing the first noun does and is a further description.

      In Sharp’s words:

      “When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e., it denotes a farther description of the first named person.”

      Let me now quote 2 Thess 2:1, without any punctuation (as there is no punctuation in the Greek), and without the second “by” (which was added by the KJV, and the reason why it’s in italics):

      2 Thessalonians 2:1- “Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him,”

      You’ll notice that the definite article (“the”) is before the “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, and not before the phrase “our gathering together to Him”. So there is His “coming”, and there is our “gathering”, so based on the grammatical principle above, the phrase “our gathering together unto Him” is the same event as “the coming of the Lord”.

      Again, this the same unfolding of events which the Lord described in Matthew 24:29-31. One should also notice that in both sets of Scripture, the gathering of believers is being described. In Matthew 24:31, the Greek word is “episynagō”.
      In 2 Thess 2:1, the word is “episynagōgē”. Same word. Different tense.

      So again, Paul tells the Thessalonians that there are the two markers which MUST occur before we are gathered together unto the Lord. Paul also tells them not to believe anyone who gives a different chronology of events. Keep in mind that had Paul told them that the church would be raptured PRIOR to the apostasy and revealing of the son of perdition, they would have been ripe for the proverbial picking by any charlatan who came along trying to convince them that the day of the Lord had already begun.

      In addition, by giving those two “prerequisites”, Paul also effectively ruled out the possibility that the church is the “restrainer”. Scripture does tell us who that restrainer MIGHT be, however:

      Daniel 12:1- “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”

      • kiwiwatcher

        Unfortunately Dr John, you have grasped the wrong end of the stick and with due respect – presented the classic case of ‘if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bulldust.’ W.C Fields.

        Comprehensive?? – fiddlesticks.

        You completely missed the boat by deviating away with a wonderful array of smoke and mirrors.

        You said “Paul gave them three potential ways that they/we might be deceived:
        1)”by spirit”
        2)”by word”
        3)”by letter”
        So for all we know, this was just a forewarning.”

        Paul was replying to a current concerns at Thessalonians. That is a FACT. Read the 2 Thess 1:4-7. You have taken an unspiritual leap into the unknown with your “so for all we know.” And you are supposed to be an educated man.

        When Paul signs off the epistle, he draws attention to his signature as to validate that the message is actually from him.
        2 Thess 3:17
        “The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.”

        So John – you have just been presented with two examples showing the concern Paul was addressing to be immediate – not something in a far away future. But as we know – satan will continue to use seducing spirits, words and keyboards.

        Also note the immediacy when Paul writes “and by OUR gathering together unto him.” Paul and the early church believed the rapture would happen at any moment – certainly in their life time, as evident in his first letter to the Thessalonians.

        There seemed little point in referring to “apostasia” in the Old Testament as it was originally written in Hebrew, and ‘apostasia’ is a Greek word after being translated. That is a Kiwiwatcher Rule in comparing like-with like. The rest appeared mildly interesting but certainly not comprehensive.

        Please don’t bring up Matthew 24: etc “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
        As though it relates to the rapture. Quite different as any intelligent person can see. It’s an old chestnut and becoming rather tiring.
        1 Thess 3:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
        17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

        The CONCERN from the Thessalonians is well documented in 2 Thess 2:2
        “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Lord is at hand.”
        Paul is saying, do not be bothered in thinking that The Day Of The Lord is Present. NOT the rapture as you claim.

        The Day of the Lord (Christ) is a period of duration – similar to saying ‘back in my day’ does not refer to a 24 hour day…..but a period of time.
        According to how ‘The Day of the Lord’ is described in previous Scriptures – the period relates to Jacobs Trouble/tribulation and possibly beyond.
        So that day (Jacobs Trouble/tribulation) will not come unless the rapture has occurred, apostasy and the anti-christ revealed.

        Now I was wondering John – are you still operating your clinic. Keeping good management practices over chemical spills etc. Just wondering because you have spent a significant amount of time studying ways to distort the scriptures in the last while.

        In signing off – are you saved John? Is the Lord Jesus Christ your Saviour?
        1 John 4:1- “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

        • John

          You said: “When Paul signs off the epistle, he draws attention to his signature as to validate that the message is actually from him.”

          If anyone is trying to baffle ’em with bulldust, or however you want to refer to it, it’s you. How Paul signed off proves nothing. He does the same thing with other epistles (just like he said):

          1 Corinthians 16:21- “The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.”

          Galatians 6:11- “Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.”

          Colossians 4:18- “The salutation by the hand of me Paul. Remember my bonds. Grace be with you. Amen.”

          Philemon 1:19- “I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.”

          Try again.

          You said: “But as we know – satan will continue to use seducing spirits, words and keyboards.”

          Yes he will. Unless your power gets cut off.

          You said: “Also note the immediacy when Paul writes “and by OUR gathering together unto him.” Paul and the early church believed the rapture would happen at any moment – certainly in their life time, as evident in his first letter to the Thessalonians. ”

          I ask you a hearty “So what?” 2,000 years later, Paul was apparently wrong about immediacy. Wasn’t he? That has ZERO bearing on the timing of the rapture. In fact, what does he say in 2 Thess 1?

          2 Thessalonians 1:7-8: “And to you who are troubled rest with US, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

          What is Paul describing? Armageddon. And where does Paul have US prior to the Lord’s return? Right here.

          You said: “There seemed little point in referring to ‘apostasia’ in the Old Testament as it was originally written in Hebrew, and ‘apostasia’ is a Greek word after being translated. That is a Kiwiwatcher Rule in comparing like-with like. The rest appeared mildly interesting but certainly not comprehensive.”

          There are epistles that specifically cite the Septuagint. Educate yourself.

          You said: “Please don’t bring up Matthew 24: etc. As though it relates to the rapture. Quite different as any intelligent person can see. It’s an old chestnut and becoming rather tiring.”

          What a surprise. Don’t respond. Just insert rhetoric.

          You said: “1 Thess 3:16-17…”

          You meant 1 Thess 4.

          You said: “The CONCERN from the Thessalonians is well documented in 2 Thess 2:2. Paul is saying, do not be bothered in thinking that The Day Of The Lord is Present. NOT the rapture as you claim.”

          They both happen at the Lord’s return.

          You said: “The Day of the Lord (Christ) is a period of duration – similar to saying ‘back in my day’ does not refer to a 24 hour day…..but a period of time. According to how ‘The Day of the Lord’ is described in previous Scriptures – the period relates to Jacobs Trouble/tribulation and possibly beyond. So that day (Jacobs Trouble/tribulation) will not come unless the rapture has occurred, apostasy and the anti-christ revealed.”

          Do you ever study before you type?

          Matthew 24:29- “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

          The Lord described the heavenly signs as coming AFTER the tribulation.

          Acts 2:20- “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come:”

          In quoting Joel 2, Peter described the DoTL as coming AFTER the heavenly signs. So according to the Lord and Joel/Peter, the sequence of events is:

          Trib–>heavenly signs–>DoTL

          You said: “Now I was wondering John – are you still operating your clinic. Keeping good management practices over chemical spills etc. Just wondering because you have spent a significant amount of time studying ways to distort the scriptures in the last while. In signing off – are you saved John? Is the Lord Jesus Christ your Saviour?”

          Stop the rhetoric, kw.

          • kiwiwatcher

            The most important question remained unanswered dr John. Why is that?

            Are you saved dr John? Is the Lord Jesus Christ your Saviour?

            Why I ask is because the Scriptures will prove to be most difficult for you unless you have the Holy Spirit.

            What you have difficulty with on a scriptural level is fobbed off as rhetoric. Tsk tsk tsk John – you can do better than that – surely?
            Hopefully you have applied the law of accuracy.

            You mock Paul with “I ask you a hearty “So what?” 2,000 years later, Paul was apparently wrong about immediacy. Wasn’t he? That has ZERO bearing on the timing of the rapture” while failing to grasp the relevance, perhaps a masking ploy due to your desperation.

            First – the relevance is to do with the discussion at hand and to acknowledge Paul was referring to an event expected in his lifetime. Not in some future as you had suggested.
            Second – Paul was absolutely placing the rapture in a sequence of events, which contrasts with your “That has ZERO bearing on the timing of the rapture.”

            Wrong John – Paul does not sign off ‘OTHER’ epistles with an emphasis on his signature. Review 1 Thess.
            As this is his second letter writing experience his new method of signing continues in all his following epistles as Paul now knows that false prophets abound. ….Now that rings a bell.

            Just whereabouts does Paul say ‘US’ (the Thessalonians) are in 2 Thess 1:7-8. You say right here on earth, but it doesn’t say that in the Scriptures at all. That was made that up to suit yourself.

            Notice as Paul describes the 2 Thess 1:7-8 event, very similar to Matthew 24:29-30 but that it differs very much to the rapture he describes in 1 Thess 16:17. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
            Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
            Pointing our differences between 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 appears to be significant to you…..so why not apply your own reasoning to the differences in Matt 24.
            You claim they are both the same event. Odd that they have differing descriptions John. Then you say these two different events are both going to happen at the Lord’s return. Which event occurs first? The rapture (harpazo) as Paul describes with the dead rising first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, or Matthew’s described second coming of our Lord “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

            You said flippantly “There are epistles that specifically cite the Septuagint. Educate yourself.”

            Just hoped you intended to be accurate with your research – that was all. You know – comparing like with like, but if you wish to alter course in locating the meaning of a Greek word that has first been written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek – good for you.
            Jesus quoted the Scriptures on numerous occasions and his speech is in agreement with the proto-Masoretic text, with the Hebrew under-lying the Septuagint, coupled with the Aramaic para-phrase. But you knew this anyway.

            In Luke 16:15 Jesus asserts that “what is exalted among humans is an abomination [bdelygrna] in the sight of God.” This alludes to Prov 16:5 in the Hebrew, where the wise man claims: “Every one who is arrogant is an abomination [tw’bh] to the LORD”; not to the Septuagint: “Every arrogant person is unclean [akathartos] before God.”
            In the words of institution, Jesus speaks of his blood, “which is poured out [ekchynnomenon] for many” (Mark 14:24), which alludes to Isa 53:12 in the Hebrew: “he poured out [h’rh] his soul to death”; not in the Septuagint: “his soul was given over (paredothe] to death.”

            You say that The Day OF The Lord is mentioned in Acts and then quoted.
            Acts 2:20- “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come:”
            For someone who uses the Granville Sharp Rule – this is totally insufficient. NOWHERE in your referred scriptures in Acts do I see ‘The Day of the Lord.’ You have provided “that great and notable day of the Lord” – which is NOT ‘The Day of the Lord.’ Quite difference. Again.

            Remember John – compare like with like. Not – nearly the same.
            “Parousia” – used 24 times in the New Testament. Used in reference to various individuals, Stephanas, Fortunatus, Achaicus, Paul himself, the lawless one and is linked with “gathering together unto”. (episynogagōgē). Only used twice in the Greek New Testament as a noun, the other place being Hebrew 10.25. “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”

            It is a desperate measure to use the verb form (episynagō) of episynogagōgē and say it means the same.

            Sometimes you attempt to be deadly accurate, then other times you are quite happy to generalise. Very inconsistent and wrong on so many levels.

            Why are so vehemently opposed to the thought of a pre-tribulation rapture? Especially when it makes no difference to you at all.

            God bless you John.

        • John

          By the way, KW, I like how you did nothing to address the Granville Sharp rule as it applies to 2 Thess 2, but try to divert with Paul saying “our gathering”. Paul was describing “our gathering” unto the Lord at the “parousia”. Deal with it.

          • carrierwave

            I have to concur with Kiwi. Building a straw man argument there is “no evidence” of tampering with Paul’s teachings on the rapture and 2nd coming among the Thessalonian assembly is simply a denial of the facts. The simple fact Paul “scolded them”, (2 Thess.2:5) as you put it, proves just the opposite, thereby, shooting your straw-man in the foot. No responsible person would “scold” someone BEFORE an infraction has ocurred, especially when you stated,’NONE EXISTED’, and additionally, when the reprimand is given in the form of a question. Paul was obviously ‘instructing’ while dealing with something that had caused them to be “soon shaken in mind” and “troubled”, otherwise, he would have never “scolded” them about it, or even covered a previously taught subject if things were running smoothly.

            Furthermore, while Joel 2:31 entails “THE GREAT, and TERRIBLE DAY,(THAT GREAT, and NOTABLE DAY, Acts 2:20, quoted by Peter) describes *the actual day* of THE 2nd coming, when the Lord Jesus touches ground on the Mt. of Olives. However, Peter also describes a broader view and *extended period* called the “day of the Lord” coming as a “thief in the night” and continuing and covering through the millennium of 1,000 years and at least to the New Heaven and Earth. In 2 Peter 3:10 There is a noted and distinct difference.

            Again, I would agree with Kiwiwatcher, that “the day of the Lord” is a much broader and longer period of time COMPARED to the *single day* “THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY..” according to Peter’s description in Acts 2:20.

            The question I ask you: “Do you study before you type”?When Jesus arrives to earth the ‘2nd time’, do we see “the heavens pass away with a great noise”, or “elements melting with a fervent heat” and “the earth and it works therein burnt up”? NO, is the correct answer. But Peter plainly states that is what happens in the “day of the Lord”, compared to the “THAT GREAT, AND NOTABLE, day of the Lord.

          • John

            Carrierwave,

            There is nothing explicit in Paul’s writing to indicate that anyone had yet tried to deceive them. You simply would not be able to prove it in a court of law. I am arguing they were confused about when the DoTL begin, and thus Paul’s scolding, that they hadn’t remembed what he had previously told them. He gives three ways that they might be deceived, yet doesn’t say that any of them had occured.

            As for the DoTL being only one day, I made no such claim. What I was proving, was that according to the Lord and Peter/Joel, it doesn’t include the tribulation.

          • carrierwave

            So, at least you admit there was “confusion” about the day of the Lord ? Bravo, John! There is hope. SCRIPTURE states: “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.” 1Cor. 13:33 So, where does “confusion” come from? Satan, the “deceiver” and “liar”? Or do you just attribute all “confusion” to just plain ignorance? You might be able to sell that at the candy counter, but not before common sense, and intelligence.

            BY the way, your horrendous Greek inabilities have once again led you into more error. While attempting to apply “Granville Sharp’s Rule” to 2Thess. 2:1, you have ended up ‘violating’ it by a blantant misapplication of “Rule #1”. That rule applies only “when the two nouns are singular and relates TO PERSONS ONLY”, NOT “THINGS”. This is rather humorous, actually, when you challenged KW twice about it.. These restrictions are always to be considered when using the Granvile Sharp Rules and there are no exceptions in the Koine Greek. The 2nd Coming and, “by our gathering together” (rapture) are “THINGS” not “persons”. There is no possible justification to apply Sharp’s Rule in this case. Gramatically, they are 2 (two) separate concepts “things” not persons. Just as you butchered the Greek in Revelation 19:7, the “wedding of the Lamb IS COME..” with the atrocious rendering “is about to begin” of the “2 arorist active indicative” it is simply A LIE, john. “Ye do err not knowing the scripture.”

            .
            Search: “Wallace’s Commentary where he restated Granville Sharp's rule in order to explicitly state all the restrictions and to enhance the readability of the rule.”

        • John

          Let me know when you decide to provide even a semblance of an intelligent response.

          • kiwiwatcher

            The last while reminds me of Peter when he wrote 2 Peter 3:15-17, during the reign of Nero about 67AD.

            “And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

            as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

            Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.”

  • kiwiwatcher

    Thanks Carrierwave. Appreciate the input, and I am in no way in disagreement with your conclusion.

    Understand how the context applies, definite article etc on deciphering early language and grateful for the various definitions from Brother Nick.

    I have had an interest in this particular verse for many years as it soon become apparent that Paul was referring to something exact…..while ‘a falling away’ appears as a general term. Then to learn that ‘departure’ was the early translation and was changed in 1611 – surprised me.
    Each generation since Adam believes the world is getting worse, especially as one grows older, so ‘a falling away’ has a difficult application.
    Only during wars/or huge difficulties are people drawn to God or something else, otherwise they eat, drink and be merry.

    The false doctrine taught by Hymenaeus and Philetus occurred 12-15 years after Paul wrote these words to the Thessalonians, so their false influence is totally unrelated to this episode.

    The first letter to the Thessalonians (probably Paul’s first epistle ever) relates to the rapture (harpazo, – to snatch or take away.)

    The second letter to the Thessalonians did not dwell on the rapture as it had already been discussed several months earlier but did mention it in 2 Thess 2:1 “by our gathering together unto him”

    A new topic (a letter from post-tribbers) had brought great anxiety into the young Church as Paul referred to in 2 Thess 2:2 “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”

    Here, Paul links together their fears to the subject the Thessalonians were concerned with – “The Day of the Lord”

    Due to some members of the Church at Thessaloniki being troubled/persecuted they believed they were experiencing the tribulation. (sound familiar)

    In chapter one Paul makes reference to the concerns of the church, 2 Thess 1:4
    “So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and TRIBULATIONS THAT YE ENDURE:
    Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgement of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU;”

    Posted some thoughts earlier on Thessalonians on NTEB – “The Pretribulation Rapture Of The Church As Found In The Book Of Revelation.”

    Here to learn. God Bless and thank you

    • Bro. Nick

      kiwiwatcher – I do not remember anyone that I have talked to that agrees with my personal understanding, and that bothers me not at all – for I am not ‘dogmatic’ about my conclusion – and it is not ‘an essential doctrine’. It should be able to be discussed amicably – which it is being.
      I appreciate and thank you for your pleasant responses.

      My desire is to always “walk by faith not by sight” – Bro. Nick
      .

      • kiwiwatcher

        So smiling Brother Nick…because I do have a part B to the discussion. While I do not disagree with ‘the departure’ conclusion – I did have some other findings.

        I have failed to locate any Scriptures anywhere, that show people who are not raptured…..ever being sorrowful, most distraught, moaning in horror etc. Now you think that would be case. Scriptures fresh in their mind, Godly neighbours and BANG……the people next door are gone. But apparently they are not concerned at all.

        However, if the Inspired Word of God applied “the apostasia” as Luke wrote in Acts 21:21 (forsake), then it’s another matter, but still an event, a happening.

        Add to the mix – 2 Thess 2:11 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie:”

        So the Thessalonians were inquiring as to where/when THE DAY OF THE LORD (tribulation) would occur.
        “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
        2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
        3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

        Then we have the Rapture in verse one, “by our gathering together unto him”
        Verse two – don’t be troubled as the The Day Of The Lord is not here yet
        Verse three – don’t be deceived at all for the tribulation will not start until the government sponsored (counterfeit religion) great deception occurs and the anti-christ is revealed.

        Why I say this – is because Paul was fearful of the Romans getting hold of his letters and he being arrested/tortured for being a dissident, which would hinder his ministry.
        He had a cautious approach to his writing and reminded the Thessalonians
        V5 “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

        Any thoughts are very much appreciated.

        Rev 1:3
        “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”

  • Jewish Voice

    Who cares how old your King James Bible is? I want to see the original God inspired Hebrew text from the first century…There is no Bible Code running through the Greek or English translations…Accordingly, they are full of errors and corruption…If you don’t believe me that most of the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew then read the writings of following church fathers- Paias, Ireneus, Origin, Eusubius, Epiphaneus, Jerome and Clement of Alexandria…There is conspiracy afoot to take the Jewishness out of the Bible and the Gospel. God have mercy on these anti-Semites.

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