China Warns, Japan Fears And George Soros Freaks Out As Donald Trump Continues End Times Rise To The Top

On his very first day in office, president Donald Trump will send shockwaves around the world, not by doing anything, but just by being. From a prophecy perspective, this will immediately reset the table with every nation hostile to us, and with every nation that has gotten used to pushing around a second-rate America under the Obama reign of terror. For the first time since the reestablishment of Israel in 1948, there will exist the possibility that literally anything can happen. The entire global community is starting to realize that we are on the brink of huge, huge change.
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In the last two weeks, Republican frontrunner Donald Trump has won more delegates in primaries and caucuses, even while his opponents have launched new attacks and questions have been raised about his supporters.

“And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:” Daniel 2:21 (KJV)

My friends, we are indeed living in the end times, and a Donald Trump presidency will be just the ticket. I believe with all my heart that God is getting ready to shake the world and I further believe that He is going to use Donald J. Trump as president to bring it about. Never before, either in my lifetime or in recorded American history, have we witnessed such a strong reaction to a candidate for president of the United States. Never before have so many world leaders chimed in to give an opinion on our election process. Shoot, even NWO puppet master George Soros is running scared and the millions to ‘stop Trump’ have already begun to flow.

Fellow Christians will ask me “how can you vote for Trump?” And I say back to them “are you KIDDING me? If you know and believe Bible prophecy, how could you not vote for Trump?”

On his very first day in office, president Donald Trump will send shockwaves around the world, not by doing anything, but just by being there. From a prophecy perspective, this will immediately reset the table with every nation hostile to us, and with every nation that has gotten used to pushing around a second-rate America under the Obama reign of terror. For the first time since the reestablishment of Israel in 1948, there will exist the possibility that literally anything can happen. The entire global community is starting to realize that we are on the brink of huge, huge change.

Did you read the headlines just today? Take a look:

  • Donald Trump’s rise sparks alarm in Japan: As polls open for US primaries in Ohio and Florida, the political elite in Tokyo is starting to confront a disconcerting idea: that their indispensable US ally could actually elect Donald Trump as president. The controversial businessman, now favorite for the Republican nomination, hits Japan regularly in his stump speeches for supposedly unfair trade practices and freeriding on US military protection. “To start with they just thought ‘he’s funny’,” said Masatoshi Honda, a professor of politics at Kinjo University. “But recently they’re starting to worry — what happens if Trump wins?” source
  • Trump opens Pandora’s box in US: Donald Trump, front-runner to be the GOP’s candidate for the upcoming US presidential election, encountered a major protest at his campaign event in Chicago on Friday evening. Over a thousand people, both his supporters and opponents engaged in a physical confrontation, which was quelled by police who arrested a number of people. source
  • Soros, Alarmed by Trump, Pours Money into 2016 Race: George Soros has expressed alarm over the past few months at the candidacy of Donald Trump. In a statement last week about a new group he’s funding to increase voting by Latinos and immigrants in the election, he again mentioned the candidate by name. “The intense anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim rhetoric that has been fueled by the Republican primary is deeply offensive,” Soros said in the statement. “There should be consequences for the outrageous statements and proposals that we’ve regularly heard from Trump.” source

  • Trump breaks 50% in national support for the first time: In the last two weeks, Republican frontrunner Donald Trump has won more delegates in primaries and caucuses, even while his opponents have launched new attacks and questions have been raised about his supporters.  The week’s Economist/YouGov Poll finds Trump still at the top of GOP voters’ preference with a wider lead, while Florida Senator Marco Rubio seems most damaged by the two weeks of attacks and counter-attacks. This is the first time Trump has garnered the support of a majority of Republican primary voters nationwide. YouGov’s February 24-27 survey marked his previous high, at 44% support. source

  • President Donald Trump would be a ‘disaster’ for Australia, analysts warn: Australian National University political analyst Dr Norman Abjorensen yesterday said: “Even the most impartial observer would think Donald Trump as president is a little bit scary.” source

As much as I dislike the failed Marxist policies of the Muslim-raised Barack Hussein Obama, I have always said on this website that I believe he became president so God could judge our nation. And He certainly has done that. Taxpayer funding for baby murder, forcing same-sex marriage on America, decimating the power of our military, and the list goes on and on. Now that the United States has been judged, I believe God is going to begin the process of shaking the entire world in preparation of the time of Jacob’s trouble. And America will be the ‘big stick’ He is going to use, with Trump as president.

These are the days of prophecy, there is no hiding place, nowhere to run to. Every night when I look up into the the eastern sky, I see in my mind’s eye the clouds parting, a shofar blaring, and a thunderous “come up hither!” reverberating across the ocean. If the time of Jacob’s trouble really is as close as it looks like it is, then that means that the Pretribulation Rapture, which naturally must come first, is closer still.

So Christian, when you vote, vote for the candidate that seems most likely to be used of God to advance the prophecy timeline. I want to see the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob shake this world to its very core, and I want a front row seat when it happens. You students of Bible prophecy will take note that America does not appear anywhere among the named nations of the world. There is no “revival” coming, there is no “kingdom to claim for Jesus” as one of the candidates believe.

“I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.” Isaiah 61:10 (KJV)

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It is my contention that the God of the Holy Bible is getting ready to set the entire global community on its ear. Don’t waste your time with politics! Start getting busy going out into the streets, handing out gospel tracts, and preaching the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ.

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV)

Are YOU ready for what comes next?

 

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he has a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
  • I’ve heard that if Trump wins the election it could be the end of Soros if Soros assets are seized under RICO, and he is turned over to the Russians for his crimes. Soros’ satanic acitivities could come to an end.

    • wouldn’t that be a shame poor ole george rotting away in a cold dark damp rat infested gulag in siberia. i just shed a tear one of joy that is at the thought.

    • TorchbearerforJesus

      Crystal Starheart, don’t get your hopes up! Henry Kissinger is a war criminal, for helping Hitler, but look where he is today! The “Boys Club” has handsomely rewarded him instead of punishing him. A year or so ago, he had to flee Italy under the veil of darkness, as they were going to arrest him and have him tried for those war crimes…

    • John barrett

      Crystal Starheart, I hope and pray that what you’ve heard comes to fruition~!Donald Trump is for the most part the most mysterious and mystical candidate that seems to have a allure that we have not seen ever. Good or bad, he manages to move people and I am all for him in the same mystical way, although he still manages to speak the language I most respect and want desperately for America and the American citizens~!

      • Mike

        Trump is mysterious and mystical? Hardly. He’s a 3rd grade bully with a really big wallet.

    • Estrella de David

      I hope so… Soros is the devil encarnated…

  • wildrover

    I voted for TRUMP today. Heck to the yes I did.

  • Clay

    I have been giving out your tracts Geoff. I gave one to a guy and his family yesterday and I talked to him. Jesus is coming soon, be ready. Do you know HIM? I got excited and ran around my truck. Get excited people. God will put I office who HE chooses. I’m interested in saving lost souls. Amen!

    • That is SO awesome, love to hear stories like yours! Forget politics, but we can USE politics to reach the lost and prodigal for Jesus Christ!

      • Leigh

        Brother Geoffrey I do the same thing as you, when I see the sky, I look up and imagine the clouds pulling back and Jesus calling us up, my stomach even does a flip from excitement sometimes. God bless you for the work you do for the Lord, I pray I could find a way to witness for the Lord, I stutter so its not easy for me, but with God all things are possible!

        • I stuttered for a long time, but the day I was called to preach and first stepped up into the pulpit, the Lord “loosed the string” of my tongue and I could speak freely. Call on Him to do to the same for you!

          • leigh

            Wow that’s incredible. I am busy listening to your podcast right now as on Revelations I type, and I would never have thought you stuttered! Praise to God for your healing!

          • leigh

            As I type 🙂

        • Skywatcher

          Good morning, Dear Sister Leigh!

          Don’t you dare to let that old devil get you down because you stutter! People will listen to you, just to have your rare beauty in their presence a little longer! Moses stuttered, and look what God did through him!

          People who really want to hear the blessed message of hope and salvation will stay around to hear your message, no matter how long it takes to get it out!

          God bless you, as you realize that God will speak through you with clarity, fluidity, and passion for Him!

          • leigh

            Thank you so much for the kind words brother T! You are sweet!
            Its not a very bad stutter, I work in an office environment and I dont think anyone knows I even stammer, I am able to control it for the most part, just takes effort. But Ive never approached a stranger about Christ, I would be very intimidated, but I am praying to the Lord to show me how he can use me to spread His gospel or how I can serve Him in someway!

            Moses had Aaron, I need me an Aaron 🙂 Im just kidding! 🙂

            God bless you!

        • Skywatcher

          Leigh, speaking from experience, I find the more I speak out for Jesus, the easier it gets! Can anybody out there vouch for that? If so, let this dear sister know too! The most important thing is to have the salvation Scriptures memorized so that they are at your access whenever you need them! Pray before you witness, asking for the Holy Spirit to guide you and to give you the right words to say.

          Again, for me, once I have the passages memorized, I am able to speak them forth as though I’m casually speaking them out. I don’t use the old King James English, or people would fall off their legs laughing or trying to understand what it is I’m trying to say. God is NOT restricted to it anymore than He is limited to French! I paraphrase, being very careful NOT to deviate one iota from the truth of the verse. I drop the “ths”, “thees”, etc.

          The part that reaches the person is God’s Word! That always hooks them, if they’re truly seeking truth. God’s Word is the powerful component in the gospel presentation, especially when coupled with the Holy Spirit.

          ALWAYS watch for the Lord to present you with an opportunity! When He does, you’ll be soooooo glad you reached out and took it! You’d be amazed at how many people are hungry for truth, forgiveness, acceptance, and hope!

          As for Aaron…I believe that Moses eventually outgrew his speech impediment and Aaron became his props manager! 🙂

          God bless you, Sis!
          Brother “T” 🙂

          • leigh

            Thanks for the advice Brother…God bless you today!

        • Deborah

          Dear Sister Leigh, God has already promised us the very power of Christ which is inseparable from His grace. The best part is we have that now — the power is currently resting on us. This truth is revealed in II Corinthians 12. I have impaired mobility and previously experienced other chronic health issues. Believe me, I learned this truth firsthand. Keep on, Sister! Through Christ, God has made a way for His power to rest upon you. Blessings!

          • leigh

            Thanks sister, I pray our Lord will heal you completely.
            God bless you!

    • MARY MAGDALENE

      You provoke to jealousy Clay! 🙂

    • Pete

      This is the end result of terrible eschatology. “Vote for Trump so Jesus comes quicker.” Hoooo boy. In 4 years when things are in a shambles and you pre-tribbers are standing around blinking because we are all still here, we know who to thank.

      • Yes Pete… You are so very right! I have written a 4-Part “Last Days” Series that refutes the erroneous ‘Pre-Trib Rapture’ and correctly presents the Biblical evidence for a ‘Post-Trib… Pre-Wrath’ scenario. The word ‘tribulation’ in Scripture is NEVER used to represent Divine Judgment, but rather the persecution of believers and the children of Israel by satan, the world system, and the fallen ones’ demonic seed in humanity- ‘man’s inhumanity to man’. I show clearly that the genuine Rapture of believers will not occur before Revelation 6:12- the opening of the 6th Seal.

        I believe as 2 Thess. 2:1-12 reveals, many ‘nominal Christians will fall away when the NWO Globalist ‘One World’ Antichrist kingdom manifests. They were not of us, or they would have remained (as Scripture declares).

        Prayerfully consider these sequential essays, beginning with:
        https://zionsgate.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/the-day-of-christ-and-the-day-of-the-lord/

        Kingdom Blessings to you and all your loved ones… in Christ ~Santos

        • Pete

          Santos Garcia, Jr., respectfully, I do not believe in a post-trib rapture either. I don’t believe in a 7 year time of hell on earth prior to the end of the world or prior to/after the second coming of Jesus.

    • Estrella de David

      Amen! I pray that GOD blesses and protects you Clay so you can keep on doing just that!

  • kashmir

    trump 2016 <3

  • Steve

    Well said, brother. Amazing time to be alive …..

    • That’s for sure! Every day I read the headlines, I get a Chris Matthews “tingle up my leg” in anticipation of Bible prophecy unfolding. Donald Trump is being used by God to accomplish His end times purposes, so please pray for Trump’s salvation. He sure does need it.

      • MARY MAGDALENE

        We just went live on Twitter–talk about entering the viper’s den. Anyway we followed you. GREAT POST ! But these devils will not stop at nothing. Trump and his family need divine protection. But a bulletproof screen like the pope uses is now justified.

      • sooz22

        Wouldn’t it be amazing if The Donald got saved and gave God the glory???? We all know that God is in control, but what a event that would be, to have Donald come to the Lord?!!!! Nothing is impossible with God.

  • Larry / vietnamvet1971

    We the People, have seen and had enough we are not going to take it any more.

    GO Trump…………………..one reason I like Trump every one is trying to STOP him.

  • Many people have been giving me a hard time for supporting Trump over the last few months. But know you know the “real reason” why I want to see Donald Trump become president. To set the entire global community on it’s head and shake it to it’s very core. There IS a God in Israel, and soon the whole world will have to deal with Him.

    “Even so, come Lord Jesus”. Amen.

    • MARY MAGDALENE

      AMEN!

    • amen geoffrey and i said just when trump became serious if his campaign took off that the gop and dems would hate him because of their loss of power and influence and foreign govts and big business here and from out of the country. i would like to see trump in the white house so he could tear their little play house down and burn and tear the gop down to the foundations . we all or most of us want to see someone tear up washington dc and the corruption that has been going on for years but trump had better step carefully and be as wise as a serpent because i believe someone is going to attempt to take his life and i have said that for a long time now. jfk threatened to investigate what he called the govt within the govt and we see how he and bobby ended up. go trump. hopefully trump can be our hammer and everything he sees can be a nail.

    • sooz22

      “Even so, come Lord Jesus” – What blessed words!!!!

    • GRACE

      AMEN AND AMEN!

  • John Colavito

    My wife and I were discussing this recently. I am not a Trump fan at all, however, I can’t help but believe he will play a HUGE part in end time prophecy; or maybe he will but is another 4 more years, I don’t know. Either way, reading this gets me excited because this world isn’t our home. I pray that the Rapture occurs today.

    I’ve been witnessing to a lot of people lately and using politics and the Middle East as the ice breaker and I tell them that they need to know Jesus because He is coming soon. They think I’m crazy, but I know I’m not. I’m just in love with Jesus and I want everyone to know it. I pray that I’d become more like a lion and less like a lamb when it comes to witnessing. I work with surgeons and it’s very difficult to get your point across to people who believe they know everything.

    I’m excited! Maranatha!

    • Exactly! God gave me insight to see that Donald Trump, unsaved a man as he is, was going to be used to “shake the world” to it’s very core. All through the Bible, we see God raising people up, saved and lost, to accomplish His prophetic purposes. When I realized that Trump was going to be used in that way I got all goosebumply thinking about how close to the Rapture we really are. Now the news headlines are all announcing that leaders of many other nations are afraid of a Trump presidency. And guess what, they SHOULD be!

      I hear the propellers of our flight on Revelation 4:1 Airlines starting to warm up…..all aboard!

      • Pete

        Geoffrey, when you are proven wrong about Trump and that God’s “insight” was nothing more than your own imagination, when the rapture never materializes and all we are left with is a country with even more crony capitalism and corruption in the federal government…will you step forward and repent?

        • sooz22

          I’m excited, aren’t you????

          • sooz22

            Sorry, my reply was for Geoffrey Grider. Oooops.

        • You want me to “step up and repent” if Trump doesn’t win? Do you even know what the word “repent” even means? And no, I won’t be doing that if Trump doesn’t win. But this is what I have come to expect from you “Rapture haters”.

          • Pistol Peter

            Brawther Geoffrey, it’s not difficult to figure out who the cult members are, is it! They all come out the startin’ gate, breathin’ hard, nostrils flarin’, knickers in some kind of religious knot, and hateful as a barrel of pit vipers! It’s too bad they can’t read John 14: 3 and I Thess. 4: 13-18 and let that sink down in a little! You keep up the really good news reportin’!

          • Pete

            That’s not what I said at all, and you know it. To clarify: if Trump DOES win, and no rapture happens, and all we are left with 5 years from now is a worse situation than we are in…will you step up and admit that your “insight” that “God gave you” was nothing more than your imagination? And yes, Geoffrey, I know what repenting means. The question is will you repent – stop the hype, stop the speculation, stop the futurist predictions you have no business making?

            I’m not counting on it.

        • Heather

          Pete, when you are proven wrong about a post trib rapture, will you step forward and repent for your faithless unbelief, and for looking the Antichrist first and not THE Christ who is Jesus Christ?

          • Pete

            Heather, I have never said I believe in a post-trib rapture. I don’t believe in any sort of “end of the world” 7 years of hell, so both post and pre are wrong in my opinion. I am looking for Jesus Christ to return once, and raise the dead and the entire universe to be completely set right and paradise restored. It isn’t “faithless unbelief.” It’s believing what the Bible actually says, not what men have devised.

            If I am wrong and Donald Trump ushers in the 7 years of hell, and you and I are raptured ahead of that….yes, I will try to find you and the many others I have challenged and formally repent and apologize.

        • TorchbearerforJesus

          Pete, what Bible do you read? Are you a Seventh Day Adventist or a JW? I don’t say that to be unkind or accusing, etc. I just want to get a handle on where you’re coming from.

          • Pete

            I usually read the King James. I am a born-again “Protestant” Christian from a dispensational background, in fact I still attend a dispensational church and hang out with 99% dispies. Who are pre-trib and pre-mill. I myself have abandoned it though. Not scriptural.

      • MARY MAGDALENE

        WOOHOO! Such a short flight too! Best holiday destination ever! 🙂

      • James

        Geoffrey, do not hold your breath. We live in the Age of the grace of God. There are no prophecies being fullfilled during this age. Prophecies will resume only when this age ends at the Rapture.

        • Ron

          That is not true James, The Jews are making Ayila to their homeland in record numbers, they became a nation in one day, Jeruselum is a Burdensome stone. There are more I am sure of it just can’t remember them.

  • Jelly

    Obama was a mistake. He is the homosexual president. Obama did nothing for the people of America. He did nothing for the black people. He based his entire 8 years presiding over the homosexuals.

    • obama was a mistake the first time but the second time he was a willing choice and was voted in by a good many professing christians when people knew what he stood for and his ambitions. anyone with half a brain should have been able to see he is a charlatan .

  • The next thing on the prophetic clock is a war against Iran but it could include all the Middle East countries. Israel will win in this war and receive a 7 year treaty. The date of that treaty will start the last 7 years, Daniel 9:27. This Israeli event can happen between now and 2021. The next prophetic event will be the fall of America in a war with China, 7 years or 3 1/2 years after the Israel war This war can be found in revelation 14:6-13, 9:13-17, KJV Daniel 12:6-7 Living word Daniel 12:6-7. The next on the Callender is The rapture of the church at the 7th year of the last seven years and at about that same time Armageddon starts and shortly thereafter we come back with the Lord to save Israel. Sorry folks there is no pre- Tribulation. The above is throughly explained in my book at http://www.thejudgmentofbabylon@live.com / the fall of America. I guarantee that you can follow this through the bible while reading this book. The above is proven in chapter 12 the time table and the incredible sevens. The book;Is the judgment of Babylon of revelation 14:6-13 the fall of America? There is another book that you should be aware of. Go to http://www.thewatcherslive.com to see what has been kept from you by our government. The book The Watchers / who watches us from the moon? And where did the fallen angels go? You will be amazed at what you don’t know.

    • tiptopsaidhe

      If the 70th week of Daniel in 9:24-27 isn’t already complete, then Jesus isn’t the Messiah. I hope you’re not waiting for an antichrist to anoint the Most Holy. Also, why would Messiah be cut off again? He already went through that once, if you believe that Jesus was the Messiah and was crucified to be the sacrifice required to ratify the new covenant, causing all further sacrifices and oblations to cease. Just read Daniel 9 with Jesus as Messiah.

      Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
      Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
      Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
      Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

      Jesus fulfills all 6 of the things listed in v24.

      v26 says that in the midst of the 70th week, Messiah will be killed, and in v27 His death will caused all need for any further sacrifices to cease. He made the need for the temple ceremonies and sacrifices to cease.

      Mystery Babylon was Jerusalem, not America…and not Rome. Rome was the tool God used to destroy apostate Jerusalem and rid the Jews of the temple system.

      God already wrote a book for us to read, and He explained Himself rather clearly in it. If your book speaks of the 70th week of Daniel occurring some time in the future, you are awaiting a different Messiah.

      • Pete

        Amen tiptopsaidhe. Keep the truth flowing until the last of these Bible twisters shuffles off into the sunset.

      • terri

        actually if you do the math with the 70th week. When Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey Jews were accepting him as Messiah. 70 x 7 = 490 years well in reviewing when Daniel made that prophecy it was 483 years ti the very day that prophecy was given. There is still another 7 years before the prophecy of 490 years is fulfilled so when do you believe that 7 years will happen. Hope this makes sense and did not confuse anyone

        • Ron

          That is absolutely correct terri and if you can list the Scripture that shows this that will make it even better, but even if others choose not to believe what you wrote, I do because I know it’s true even if I can’t remember the Scripture right away

    • Trober
  • bremertonchristian

    Question: in that verse from Titus; how can the appearing of Christ be the secret rapture? I don’t get it. Isn’t the appearing talked about the appearing when every eye will see Him? And by the way Jesus didn’t need to wait for news cameras to be invented so that every eye could see Him. Thanks again NTEB. Side note; nobody I talk to is for Trump, I feel like they are all brainwashed by the media. Not even the good Ole boys. Get ready for Hillary.

    • Nothing “secret” about something hundreds of millions of people are waiting for and talking about every day. When the Bible says “every eye shall see Him” that’s NOT the Rapture, that’s the Second Coming.

      Please read this: THE BIBLE BELIEVERS GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/the-bible-believers-guide-to-understanding-the-differences-between-the-rapture-and-the-second-coming/

      • Trober

        more objective discussion of it: https://www.wake-up.org/?s=rapture

      • Angelgirl

        You know Geoffrey, it boggles my mind that all these people who “claim” to know the Word and claiming that there is no rapture pre-trib. Can’t they figure out that our relationship with Jesus is a betrothal and wedding? The church is the bride of Christ and and the ancient Jewish customs and laws of betrothal and marriage come into play here.

        Jesus paid a bride price- His death on the cross. If you accept that and Him, you become a member of His bride (the church)

        While we are gathering our trousseau, and falling deeper and deeper in love with Jesus, Jesus goes to prepare a place for us…which is also an ancient Jewish custom. No one knows when He can collect His bride as the Father has to approve of the place he plans to bring his bride to. When his father gives his approval, he can then go kidnap his bride and the bridal party. Usually they did it in the midnight hour and he gave a shout when he was close.

        I love to refer to the parable about the 10 virgins…5 whom were ready, watching and waiting, 5 who weren’t and had to leave to take care of some last minute things they forgot. In the meantime, the groom showed up and the 5 virgins who were watching and waiting…went out to meet Him.

        I am firmly convinced that you don’t have to believe in the pre-trib rapture to be saved, but I am equally convinced that if you don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture…you won’t go because you won’t be watching and waiting. You won’t be spot free. It will catch many a Christian unaware…asleep if you will. It’s a love story from beginning to end and that’s why the ancient Jewish laws, customs and traditions of betrothal and marriage are important to know. There is a special crown given to those who are watching and waiting…who are ready! The tribulation will be going on while we who know will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb!

        • Heather

          Amen, Amen, and Amen again Angelgirl! Very well said, and God bless you sister!

        • Leigh

          Amen sister, very well written 🙂
          God bless you!!

        • Skywatcher

          Angelgirl, thank you, for such a wonderfully refreshing post! I’m always curious to know what these people who deny the Pre-Trib. rapture do with John 14: 3 and I Thess. 4: 13-18. These poor hopeless and spiritually beaten up “saints” (if not in a cult, i.e. SDA or JW)only have more pain and suffering to look forward to. They consider Christ to be a wife-beater,and that flies in direct opposition to His Word, which is Himself. These people are to be most pitied!

          You’re absolutely right in your understanding of “watching”; on numerous occasions, Christ and Paul commanded us to be watching for our Bridegroom, otherwise there is no reason for the hope that is within us.

          Thank you, for that beautiful picture of the marriage! It is so nice to be reminded!!! If people cannot “get that”, they are seriously blinded by Satan and should shift their allegiance. God bless you, Angelgirl!

          • Pete

            Skywatcher, you wrote “As you know, many prophecies have a dual fulfillment, i.e. Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lu. 21. This is one of those times.”

            How do you know Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 have a dual fulfillment?

        • Interesting thing about those 10 virgins, NONE of them are marrying the Groom. Did you notice that? So the Church and the virgins are not the same. Two different groups of people!

          • Ron

            Amen Geoffrey!

        • Pete

          Angelgirl, all of the above is a nice story but the Bible never says ANY of it. You say “the ancient Jewish laws, customs and traditions of betrothal and marriage are important to know”. But none of these customs are Biblical, God did not pass any of these down to the Jews. They entirely invented these customs. Do you really think God would use the traditions of men as the basis for His plans? And then expect all of us to understand that?

          Throughout all of the discussions that Jesus had with His disciples, and continuing with the Epistles of Paul, Peter James and John…NEVER is it mentioned that these things were related to Jewish wedding customs.

          Even your own story doesn’t make logical sense. How can the bride be the church, but also part of the 10 virgins?

          You say “but I am equally convinced that if you don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture…you won’t go because you won’t be watching and waiting. You won’t be spot free.” Really? There isn’t a single verse anywhere in scripture that says this either. Never does Paul or Jesus warn Christians they had better watch for a pre-trib rapture in order to be saved from the tribulation.

          Can you tell me why 1 Thess 4 and 5 never once states that a rapture occurs prior to a 7 year tribulation? Why doesn’t 1 Thess 5:6-9 never once say that people had better “watch for the rapture” to be saved from the coming 7 years? It never does. Rather it talks about being ready and sober, “putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.” Not in anticipation of heaven. Anticipation of the trials to come.

          • Skywatcher

            Pete, I can now understand why the bitterness, animosity, and lack of spiritual fruit in your statements to those who subscribe to the Biblical position of a Pre-Trib. rapture. You are looking forward to a Satan and sadistic beating up by your Lord. This is NOT the Jesus Christ/Bridegroom of the Holy Bible! Only a sick person in mind and soul could look forward to something that heinous.

            To help me to understand further, could you please give me a verse or two that supports your position?

            You said, “Throughout all of the discussions that Jesus had with His disciples, and continuing with the Epistles of Paul, Peter James and John…NEVER is it mentioned that these things were related to Jewish wedding customs.”

            You are right ~ the Church is not represented by any of the virgins, but Paul often reveals who the Bride is…the Church, backed up by John, the Revelator! As for there being no references made in the Holy Bible about Jewish wedding customs, that is not entirely correct. The story of Christ’s conception reveals much in this regard. The parable of the Ten Virgins gives much insight; John, the Revelator shows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, united with His bride once and for all.

            As with trying to understand any group of peoples, one does a little research into their times, culture and customs. Seeing that the Holy Bible is a Jewish Book, it therefore behooves serious students of the Word, to step outside of it and to do research into those areas, so one can get the whole picture. It’s readily available to all who desire to know what a Jewish engagement/espousal and marriage entailed. Unlike the book of Mormon, our Bible has much archaeology, etc. to support itself with.

            Don’t forget for a moment, that it was God who instituted marriage in the first place, so that we would have something to look to (not to fear or to dread), as a foretaste of that which is to come. God has an ulterior motive for everything He does!

            Why is it so important to you, Pete, to believe that Christ would prefer to have a battered, beaten, and abused bride instead of a bride that is “spotless and without wrinkle”? Why, Pete?

            What do you do with John 14: 3, I Cor. 15: 50-52, and I Thess. 4: 13-18? We hear you crowing about other passages, so how about you address these for us?

            You said, “Rather it talks about being ready and sober, “putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.”

            Any good soldier knows that part of being ready is to be watching for his Commanding Officer, as well as for any movement by the enemy!

            Here’s a brief essay I did on watching a few years ago; truth never ages or loses its value. Enjoy! I’ll probably have to send it in two sections…

            Watch!

            Too often, we casually read over parts of Scripture as though they are merely statements when actually they ARE COMMANDS!

            Consequently, we don’t realize their full impact in our own lives as the Holy Spirit intended. The following are references where Jesus and others give strong commands to watch for His return and the signs leading up to the same. We are amiss and sorely robbed of blessings to fail to do so!

            Watching is NOT a new concept! When you look at Ezekiel 3: 17; 33: 6, 7: we quickly learn that God sets up “watchman unto the house of Israel”. It would behoove us to watch Israel in these last days just as Christ commands us to do in Mt. 24: 32-34; Luke 21: 29-32! It was actually a mighty important component of daily life in the Old Testament and more so these very days as their enemies regroup around them!

            Select reliable people were actually given the huge responsibility of being watchmen on the walls that surrounded their cities. However, one can be assured that there were civilians who always had their eyes peeled and their ears close to the ground within the city! They were always consciously or unconsciously watching for signs of something being out of the way, or listening as they walked past groups of people. Just as it is now…horrible things were prevented by diligent citizens who picked up on the signs of impending danger.

            While the watchmen were on duty, people could sleep with peace, security, and assurance that all was well. During the day, they could conduct their normal affairs of life knowing that somebody was high up on the walls, watching out for potential enemies, who would desire to rape, kill, pillage, plunder and conquer them.

            This duty was so important that if a watchman failed in his duties, he was to be put to death. He had one of the most important jobs in the city! For him to see enemies approaching and not to say or do something to alert others, meant death…no conditional sentence, no parole, but sure and swift execution.

            Who can be a watchman?

            Anybody can be a watchman, however, in the last days, God has heavily placed it upon the hearts of certain individuals to be very wary and diligent about what’s going on around them. This is not to suggest paranoia where there is a ghost behind every tree! This is to say, there are many things going on around us in plain sight that many people are totally oblivious to. There are things that rogue governments (including our own) are doing in plain sight and behind closed doors that threaten society as a whole, and people are not paying attention!

            These people have been dumbed-down by technology; too busy keeping up with their texting, sexting, watching a continual diet of sports (age old religion), and entertainment etc. and not at all aware of who their prime minister is or who their local councilor is! They no longer care if their neighbor is sick or even dead; community no longer exists ~ a fulfillment of last days prophecy! They can rhyme off huge volumes of sports stats which has absolutely nothing to do with them or their quality of life, and yet, they cannot tell you what the capital city of Canada is! They cannot tell you the real reason for Christmas or Easter! One such person last week didn’t even know about Ebola that is ravaging our planet! I kid you not!

            Being a watchman doesn’t mean that we only spend our time watching the signs that Jesus poignantly gave in Mt. 24, Mk. 13, or Luke 21. They are extremely important, but there are other things that God has laid upon our hearts to watch out for: heresies; lusty mercenary ventures, human trafficking, deceivers: 2 Pet. 2: 1-3; “scoffers, walking after their own lusts”, 3: 3, 4; 2 Tim. 3: 4-5 (many things to watch out for in this passage!)

            We watch what is being put into our foods, water, beverages, vaccines, medications, air, etc. We’re watching on ALL fronts. We are commanded and compelled by the Holy Spirit to warn people of impending dangers! Most people have no idea that calcium nitrate in canned tomatoes is a chemical sterilizer, and yet, we have more and more infertile young people! These people are numerous; our world has never seen such a scale of infertility like this before. Our duty should be to warn them about these products!

            Seeing that our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to watch over and to protect it by whatever means possible. That also means that we try to consume truly pure and wholesome foods and beverages. This is getting to be more difficult with each passing day as genetically modified foods continue to flood our grocery stores and our choices become limited. We are eating the chemicals that have been bred into these fruit and vegetable crops. They are extremely toxic to man and beast alike, but it helps to keep the population in check.

            Factory farms and corporations are ensuring we get our daily dose of poison in our foods. Don’t pooh-pooh that statement without first looking up online some of the “preservatives” in some of your foods! It’s there for all to see, and seeing is believing!

            One huge lie we’re picking up on is “the world is over-populated”! Friends, don’t you believe for one single moment that a single soul will ever be born that God didn’t foresee their need for the basics of life before the foundation of the world, and that includes their need for food! He promises to supply all our needs! Phil. 4: 19

            We are craftily deceived by the pictures of poor and starving people in Africa, Nigeria, etc. WHOA! Let’s hold this propaganda pony back for a moment and look to the reason why these people exist in such dire straits. Rebels and rogue government leaders are robbing these people of humanitarian aid, burning their crops, killing their herds, and allowing their people to be knowingly given poisoned pokes (vaccines) under the guise of health and healing, killing off adults and leaving a host of orphans!
            Then, take a look at the opulent palaces these leaders live in! Totally mind-numbing to see how the rich and corrupt live, while their people gasp for a cup of fresh water or a bowl of food! They live this way while the suckers in the West give countless billions of dollars / year to come to the aid of these poor suffering people, totally oblivious to the fact that these rogues are getting most of it and not the people it was intended for! These are things we watch for also. Jesus said, “You have the poor with you always”!

            Look at the tragedy of Haiti…countless millions of dollars was given to them a few years ago, and today (November, 2014) they still haven’t gotten the majority of aid (money) that was sent their way! See anything wrong with this picture? Would you have known this if watchers like myself were not paying close attention to that and not looking at the butt or bosom of the most recent reprobate celebrity or watching Hockey? NO!

            For us watchers, we were quick to recognize and to prove that this “over-populated” notion is nothing more than a lie that Satan has propagated by the eugenicists (population control freaks), to justify killing off the masses by whatever means possible, and that includes vaccines, flu shots, genetically modifying foods, and chemtrailing, etc.! We don’t look so much at the symptoms as we do the root cause! We don’t just spew out a bunch of statements without the proof to back up our supposedly “ludicrous and off the wall” information! Most are totally oblivious to these truths and nor do they care. Sadly, many of these ignoramuses are Christians who’ve lost focus.

            Part 2 to follow…

          • Skywatcher

            Pt. 2…

            Bible-believing / practicing Christians are supposed to know these things! We cannot know it if we continually deny it when told by people who spend hundreds of hours a month investigating these serious issues! We’re supposed to be shouting our findings from the rooftops, alerting the masses! This is why there is soon going to be a “witch hunt” on for Christians on a global scale! Islam is gaining ground because people who call themselves Christians are asleep on the wall! Are these people being good stewards of their land and air space by complacently letting these things continue to happen? NOT AT ALL! Are these people being good stewards of their bodies which are the temple of the Holy Spirit by putting these toxic things into our mouths, etc.? NOT AT ALL! Will we be held accountable for this? You bet!

            As watchmen, if we don’t pay attention to detail and alert the masses, then we are held accountable to the Master for negligence of duties. NONE of us wants that! We take our calling very seriously; too bad the people we’re attempting to warn wouldn’t take it just as seriously and rise up against these practices that are killing themselves, their children and their grand children! The world is ravaged today by innumerable cancers of every sector of the body. Thirty years or more ago, these things didn’t exist. There’s a cancer for everything! Even our pets are now getting it. To the younger set, this is “normal”; to us older people, this is a very loud signal that something is terribly amiss!

            Watchers are trying to alert the masses as to why these things are happening and what they can do to prevent it, but they choose not to listen, much to their shame and discomfort!

            What does Jesus say about watching?
            Mt. 24: 4; “Take heed”: Pay attention!!! (Luke 21: 8)
            42: “Watch”: Strong command to do just that!
            44: 50: “Be ready!” How can we be ready if we’re not watching and waiting for something to happen?! (Luke 21: 36)
            25: 13: “Watch”!
            25: 41: “Watch and pray”: if we’re truly mindful that Jesus could return at any moment, then we will be careful with every minute that we have!

            Mark 13: 33, 35, 37 commanded three times in this small space!

            37 “Blessed are those servants, whom the lord (master) when he comes shall find watching…”! The action comes with blessing! Luke 12: 37

            Mark 14: 39: See what happens to the one who isn’t watching!

            v. 40: What’s the point of being ready if you’re not going to watch for that person that you’re expecting? You don’t want to miss him or be late!

            14: 37: Couldn’t watch for one hour?

            38: “Watch and pray”: same as in Mt. 25: 41
            41: There’s a time to watch and a time to sleep; Jesus told His disciples to go
            back to sleep; God’s will was already in effect, and HE was keeping watch! This was prior to His death, and has nothing to do with our watching for the signs of His return, the NWO, the rule of the Antichrist, etc.

            We are not commanded to go to sleep but to WATCH!

            This entails watching everything that’s going on around us that are either indicators of or accessories to Christ’s very soon return!

            Luke 21: 8: “Take heed”: heads up! Pay strict attention! Beware!

            29: “Behold”: Watch closely: the fig tree (Israel, the key to the end of the age)
            36: “You, watch!” Same as a military order, but subjective to US!

            I Corinthians 16: 13: “You watch…” military command style again!

            Colossians 4: 2: “Continue in prayer, and WATCH…”!

            I Thessalonians 5: 6: “Therefore, let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch…”
            I Peter 4: 7: Prayerfully watch! “But the end of all things is at hand: you be sober (serious), and watch unto prayer.” If we conduct our daily lives always in prayer mode, seeking the Lord’s wisdom and guidance in all things, then we will be continually focused heavenward! There is no room or time for distractions.

            2 Timothy 4: 5: Watch in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of your ministry.” Always be expecting His soon return, no matter what we’re doing!

            As a called watcher, this is the charge given to me by my Master! “To whom much is given, much will be required.” There is no way I want to stand before Christ and have Him point out to me the various ways in which I was lax in my watcher duties, failing to warn the people as He instructed and enlightened.

            Rev. 16: 15: “Behold (watch), I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

            In other words: to fail to watch is to miss out on a tremendous blessing! Watching brings on a youthful yearning, enthusiasm, excitement and eternal hope! It breeds purpose and a passion for lost souls!

            Sometimes my excitement for these very serious issues is mistaken for “confusion” or “negativity”. It’s anything but! These are reasons for the blessed hope!

            A prominent evangelist this week stated that a huge majority of evangelical Christians are no longer looking for a Rapture, but are planning to go through the Great Tribulation! They are pulling a “Peter”, as I call it. They’re losing faith and hope! This is the spirit of Antichrist!

            Peter could walk on water while His eyes were upon the Lord. The moment he took his eyes off Christ and began to focus on the circumstances (boisterous waves) all around him, he was involuntarily baptized! He was fully immersed.

            Modern day Christians are doing exactly the same thing! They are focusing on the horrible things that are lambasting our planet and society and looking for the Great Deliverer to come. To dismiss the blessed hope of the Rapture is to adamantly announce one’s lack of trust in God and in the promises of His Word!

            Micah 7: 4 is mighty powerful, considering most of the book is prophecy relating to Christ’s coming! The Holy Spirit is telling Micah that in the last days He would have watchmen carefully watching for His comings: His birth, the Rapture, and the Second Coming!)

            The Bible has 10,385 Bible verses regarding prophecy. How can any minister or believer ignore these truths? Most do! To preach everything else and to leave these out is preaching in vain. What’s the point if they don’t know what they’re saved from and what they have to look forward to?

            That is the relevance of all the other things that I share with so many people! God gave the Jews signs for a reason, and we can see them also, and be encouraged! They are billboards proclaiming and screaming out the nearness of the Lord’s return! As His children, of all people, WE are the ones who are to be watching them! Keep up the watch!

            Pete, you said, “Can you tell me why 1 Thess 4 and 5 never once states that a rapture occurs prior to a 7 year tribulation? Why doesn’t 1 Thess 5:6-9 never once say that people had better “watch for the rapture” to be saved from the coming 7 years?”

            You conveniently side-stepped the passages that do! Just as your clever and deceitful SDA pastor has instructed you and others to do! That is NOT of God! We are to “rightly divide the Word of truth”, and not to cherry pick only the passages that suit our interests; a half truth is still a WHOLE lie!

          • DC

            Skywatcher, that was just excellent. You actually use your words to SAY SOMETHING.
            We must not forget that there’s a crown waiting at the Bema seat for those who watched for the Lord. I can’t wait to cast mine at His feet.

          • Pete

            Skywatcher, that is a LOT of text! You certainly have thought things out, and I appreciate that. I will read through and respond, unless you tell me not to. A couple of quick things in case you are interested:

            I am a Bible believing (usually KJB), “Protestant” born again Christian. I attend a non-denominational church. It is dispensational. I was raised under dispie teaching for 40+ years. I know the system very well. Personally I have rejected it in the last 5 years, because I began to really study it for myself. It lacks Biblical support.
            I am not post-trib.
            I am not SDA.
            I am not Mormon.
            I am not Roman Catholic.

            You accuse me of this: “You are looking forward to a Satan and sadistic beating up by your Lord”.

            No, I am not. I am not post-trib. I don’t believe in a coming 7 year time of hell on earth at all. The Bible never once mentions such a time. The Olivet Discourse describes the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem and the Old Covenant Jewish system of religion. Revelation is a letter written to 7 churches in the 1st century about events that would “shortly come to pass” (vs 1) and they were told that the “time was at hand” (vs 3).

            Unlike dispensationalists, I actually read the Bible LITERALLY.

            I believe Jesus is coming again bodily someday, and He will raise the dead, destroy hell and death, and institute paradise again. That is still future. Meanwhile, we Christians are to work in His kingdom, which exists NOW, and be about the business of building that. We are not supposed to be speculating, watching the news, dreaming up new “end of the world” scenarios.

            Mr. Grider might be right about Trump and the impact he has on the country and the world. But he is 100% wrong, just like the 1900 years of speculators before him, that Trump is going to help usher in the 7 years of hell, the antichrist, or Jesus’ return/the rapture.

          • DC

            So you just ignore the scriptures that don’t fit your world view and that tell us to watch for Him? You went to a church that taught the pre-trib for 40 years and decided you were more enlightened than pastors? You sound like someone who has lost faith and is trying to say that, since Jesus hasn’t taken the Church home yet, He must not be doing it at all. That’s sad, Pete.
            God took Noah out before the flood and Lot out before the destruction of S & G, so why wouldn’t he take His True Church out before the Tribulation?

            Rev. 3:10 to the church of Philidelphia:

            Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

            Here are some other verses to help you see that there IS a Tribulation coming, like never before seen.
            https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-The-Tribulation/

            I guess I just don’t understand how you can throw it all away and mock/criticize those who still believe…

          • Pete

            DC, you write:

            //so you just ignore the scriptures that don’t fit your world view and that tell us to watch for Him?//

            What scriptures tell you and I to watch for Him in the year 2016? The verses that talk about “watching”, like Mark 13:35-37, were to (and about) the disciples in the 1st century. The temple would soon be destroyed, and Jerusalem would be judged. It’s all right there. They were to watch and be ready for this to happen…in that generation. And it did happen. And history even shows us that believers who heeded the words of Jesus WERE ready, they WERE prepared, and they WERE saved. These verses make ZERO SENSE if they were meant for you and I. Everything in the Bible isn’t written directly TO you or I nor is everything directly written ABOUT you and I.

            //You went to a church that taught the pre-trib for 40 years and decided you were more enlightened than pastors?//

            That’s a crude way of putting it. Do you mean you attend a church where you 100% agree with your pastors all the time and you never check it out for yourself? What I believe is taught by MANY pastors.

            //You sound like someone who has lost faith and is trying to say that, since Jesus hasn’t taken the Church home yet, He must not be doing it at all. That’s sad, Pete.//

            Actually DC, my faith in Jesus has greatly increased since I left behind this hideous doctrine you still believe. Jesus is right now the King of kings and Lord of lords, and He is working through His church every single day. What’s sad is that YOU people think things keep getting worse and there isn’t anything we can do about it! You people think Islamists are taking over the world. Not me! Jesus is WINNING and He will continue to win and REIGN!!!!

            //God took Noah out before the flood//

            So? He never took Noah to heaven. And I don’t believe in a coming 7 year tribulation at the end of the world, so this argument is irrelevant to me.

            //and Lot out before the destruction of S & G//

            Again, Lot ****stayed on the planet****. God protected him. If there is a “tribulation” at the end of the world, how do you know God won’t just move His people to a place outside of the destruction and protect them? In fact, YOUR doctrine says the Jews will be protected in Petra. Why can’t God do that for the church? THERE IS NO VERSE THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS CHRISTIANS ARE WHISKED AWAY TO HEAVEN PRIOR TO A 7 YEAR TRIBULATION. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

            //so why wouldn’t he take His True Church out before the Tribulation?//

            Again, there is no “Tribulation” at the end of the world, there is only ongoing tribulation that God has never removed anybody to heaven to avoid. But God HAS helped His people through it. Yes. He will always help His people through tribulation.

            //Rev. 3:10 to the church of Philidelphia: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.//

            Was this not written to an actual church in the 1st century called Philadelphia? How were they supposed to read this, DC? Did Jesus rapture them away in the 1st century? And why only Philadelphia? What about the other 6 churches? They all got left behind?

            //I guess I just don’t understand how you can throw it all away and mock/criticize those who still believe..//

            I would be happy to explain it to you so you understand. Send me your email. Mine is pbksocial@gmail.com. And yes, I will continue to criticize what I think is false teaching. What’s wrong with that? YOU AND GEOFFREY and all the other pre-tribbers do it. Constantly! Why do you get free reign to mock all you like and I have to stay quiet??????

          • DC

            You could have saved us all a lot of time, Pete, had you just come out and said you are a preterist, meaning that you believe all the prophecy about the temple destruction and so on already happened in 70 A.D. and Christ’s kingdom is now and so on. So why haven’t we had 1000 years of peace since then?

            I really wasn’t trying to be confrontational, but your view sounds so hope-less. You seem to be searching for an answer that was already in front of you and I feel you were led astray by vain pursuits. I hope the Holy Spirit will convict you of the Truth.
            No, Noah and Lot stayed here, Noah & family to repopulate the earth. The times are different, though, and we are truly at the end before Christ comes to reign for 1000 years. The things that are about to happen haven’t been seen since the 10 plagues of Egypt and will be worse. He took Enoch out of here, so we know He’s raptured people before. The bible tells us we will be “caught up” and that’s enough for me.
            As for my church, I was raised Catholic, which also is preterist/amillinial/replacement theology, and left it, so looks like, in a way, we’ve gone in each other’s direction. 🙂 I’ve spent hours talking to my mom and Carlos about the RCC and all arguments have been dismissed, as sometimes people are so set in their opinion, they won’t budge. I see that with you, and that’s fine, but I’m not going to get into a back-in-forth on this b/c I don’t see either of us backing down. Having been raised Catholic, I don’t have the years of training that Skywatcher did in becoming a pastor, so if he can’t convince you, I surely can’t. I don’t wish you any ill will however; I just don’t like you treating people like they’re stupid and theGreatTroy nodding along like a bobble-head with everything you say. My intent in some comments have been to be satirical, not mean, btw.

          • Skywatcher

            Thank you, Pete, for your testimony! You felt that I was accusing you of being an SDA or a JW; I merely said that based upon what little info you had presented up to that time, and the way you made your introduction. I’m sorry, VERY sorry, you felt I was accusing you.

            Being on here for a number of months, I see those types coming out, with their nostrils red and flaring, as they IMMEDIATELY ripped strips off the saints because they believed in a pre-trib rapture, or a rapture at all for that matter.

            Most of those I’m familiar with in “conversation” on these posts like myself, take the Bible to be very literal, just as you do. That’s what makes it a bit puzzling to see that you cannot see what we’re seeing. Of course, salvation is NOT dependent upon anything WE do or say!

            Given your background, and my years of sitting under Biblical conservative and well educated professors, and several very godly and sincere pastors (all in agreement), I find it difficult to fathom how you could see it any other way.

            By the way, I WELCOME your input!

            You said, “I am not post-trib. I don’t believe in a coming 7 year time of hell on earth at all. The Bible never once mentions such a time.”

            You’re so right! It mentions it MORE THAN ONCE! We see two (3.5 year periods) of time mentioned in Rev. 11: 2, 12: 6; and again in 13: 5. A couple of these references refer to one and the same event, so we do not have three distinct periods of 3 1/2 years. When you total the two of them together, you have 7 years. When one carefully studies the details around and within these passages, we see that these are definitely referring to the reign of the AC. The first 3 1/2 years, he presents himself as being the “Prince of Peace” and then at the end of that period of time, the mask comes off and the horrors come out. The majority of early Church Fathers also agreed with this position, although like us, they could not imagine how it would all transpire.

            You correctly said, “Revelation is a letter written to 7 churches in the 1st century about events that would “shortly come to pass” (vs 1) and they were told that the “time was at hand” (vs 3).”

            What is the correct definition of “shortly”? We know that a day is with the Lord as 1,000 years, and 1,000 years are as but a day. When the Holy Spirit inspired these words, he was talking from His perspective of eternity. A million years to Him is a blink of an eye. The key thought here is the imminence of such an occurrence. The rapture could happen at any moment. Of course, with the luxury of hindsight today, we know that there had to be prophecies fulfilled before He could have the trumpet sounded. They’re all fulfilled now, with absolute precision!

            However, when the same conditions are met as those referred to in Rev., when addressing the seven churches, the same penalties will apply, hence the phrase, “History repeats itself”. As you know, many prophecies have a dual fulfillment, i.e. Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lu. 21. This is one of those times.

            You said, “I believe Jesus is coming again bodily someday, and He will raise the dead, destroy hell and death, and institute paradise again. That is still future. Meanwhile, we Christians are to work in His kingdom, which exists NOW, and be about the business of building that. We are not supposed to be speculating, watching the news, dreaming up new “end of the world” scenarios.”

            I COULDN’T AGREE WITH YOU MORE, my brother! However, because we live in the time in which Israel is being given many signs of the Great Tribulation which is just around the corner, we cannot turn a blind eye to them. Nor can we fail to get excited! Jesus said these things would come to pass before He comes back to claim His own. They’re happening NOW, brother, and all the pawns and pieces are coming together with uncanny but expected precision, because we know the God who prophesied such things “must first come to pass”, Lu. 21: 28. That is extremely exciting.

            I picture somebody like Joni-Ericson-Tada, who has been paralyzed for so many years, and I cannot but pause to think how she must be anxiously awaiting to see her Savior face-to-face! I can imagine her saying to Him, “What took You so long?!” I imagine she is getting a little more than tired of being a prisoner in her broken body. I’ve heard her say as much herself. I can imagine her dear faithful husband is also weary and anxious for the change to happen, and he wouldn’t do anything to hinder or to slow down the rapture either.

            I can imagine the hope and excitement that is daily building up in the heart of a person blind from birth or later on in life…longing to see a blue sky and a crystal clear stream for the very first time or… once again; to be able to see their loved ones that they’ve NEVER EVER seen or had at one time, but haven’t for a long time.

            Back in Paul’s time, he mentioned that even creation itself was groaning in anticipation of being redeemed and renewed. Rom. 8: 22, 23. Later on, Peter warns of scoffers who would say, “…Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” II Peter 3: 4

            You said, “Mr. Grider might be right about Trump and the impact he has on the country and the world. But he is 100% wrong, just like the 1900 years of speculators before him, that Trump is going to help usher in the 7 years of hell, the antichrist, or Jesus’ return/the rapture.”

            You don’t know if he’s anymore wrong than I do that he’s 100% correct! Only time will tell, and until then, we have no right to call somebody down on something like that. To me, that’s a pretty arrogant statement, especially when you’re including in that number, many very devout and committed theologian who dedicated their whole lives to the study of God’s Word.

            We ALL are operating on faith, and to me, faith is believing in something that I have not yet witnessed or experienced. However, even a blind person can recognize the signs that warns us that the G.T. is close at hand. A person of faith listens to his Commanding Officer who says, “When you see these things BEGIN to happen, look up, for your redemption draweth nigh.” Lu. 21: 28 One cannot see “these things begin to happen” if s/he is not watching. If we cannot see them happening, we have the witness of His Holy Spirit with our spirit that our homecoming is close at hand.

            By the way, what Biblical evidences do you have to support YOUR position? I saw the first two or three you mentioned to DC but they don’t hold water.

            God bless you, Brother! I look forward to hearing from you again, if you haven’t already! It takes me awhile to type some of my responses between work and looking up Scriptures, but the replies keep on coming. 🙂

          • Pete

            DC, I appreciate your kind responses as always. Some more thoughts on what you wrote:

            //You could have saved us all a lot of time, Pete, had you just come out and said you are a preterist, meaning that you believe all the prophecy about the temple destruction and so on already happened in 70 A.D.//

            But that’s how the literal text reads! It talks about things coming to pass shortly. And “quickly.” And Jesus said “this generation” would not pass away – while He stood right there and talked to those people! And He used words to 1st century Jews, like housetop living, and cloaks in a field. And He said THIS TEMPLE BUILDING while standing in front of it! I could go on.

            //Christ’s kingdom is now and so on.//

            You don’t believe Christ has a kingdom now? He isn’t King of kings??? See, this is why dispensationalism is so confusing.

            //So why haven’t we had 1000 years of peace since then?//

            I find no such time period anywhere in scripture.

            //I really wasn’t trying to be confrontational, but your view sounds so hope-less.//

            Hmmmmm….why? Just like you, I believe Jesus will restore all things to perfection. Just like you, I believe in a future resurrection and that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Just like you I believe we will have perfect spiritual bodies. I just don’t believe in the same order of events and I don’t think it happens all in one second, just before the entire world falls into hell!

            //You seem to be searching for an answer that was already in front of you//

            That’s weird, because everything I have said has been a statement of what I believe, not questions.

            and I feel you were led astray by vain pursuits. I hope the Holy Spirit will convict you of the Truth.//

            Trust me sister, He HAS…and it’s a beautiful thing. No longer do I have to change the very words of the Bible. I just believe what they say in plain English! And to understand better that Jesus IS THE KING NOW. WOW….totally different view on things, you should try it. 🙂

            Exactly what “hope” do you have that I don’t have?

            Do you realize that things could get REALLY REALLY REALLY bad on this planet for the next 10 years? And God just might not rapture you out of here? It’s happened in the past!! Why not happen again? Are you ready for that?

            //No, Noah and Lot stayed here, Noah & family to repopulate the earth.//

            So….my point is taken, Noah was here on the planet. So you guys really should stop using that as an example of God taking Christians out of the planet. Especially when Jesus prayed the exact opposite in John 17:15: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” Hmmm…why would Jesus pray that for His disciples but it doesn’t apply to us? Really????

            //The times are different, though, and we are truly at the end before Christ comes to reign for 1000 years.//

            Not really. Do you realize people have been thinking this for 1900 years? Do you realize that Solomon actually warned against thinking that times were better in the “good old days”? Read Ecc 7:10. We don’t have the wisdom to know this stuff, only God does. Do you REALLY know the big picture, worldwide, the past 2000 years? The fact is, many things are actually BETTER than they were even 100 years ago. You and I don’t have a sweet clue anyway how bad things might get. Do you really KNOW God won’t leave us here another 500 years? No. You don’t.

            //The things that are about to happen haven’t been seen since the 10 plagues of Egypt and will be worse.//

            But you folks always go on and on about how only “Jacob” will endure this trouble, so why should anyone but Jews care about this?

            //He took Enoch out of here, so we know He’s raptured people before.//

            Sigh. This is one of the most tortured passages in the Bible. The Bible NEVER says Enoch went to heaven, nor does it say he never died. In fact Hebrews 11:5 talks about Enoch’s faith, then 11:13 says “These ALL (including Enoch) died”. Furthermore Jesus stated explicitly that “no man hath ascended up to heaven” except Jesus. Enoch is not sitting up in heaven in a mortal body, my friend. Only those with glorified bodies can enter the presence of Jesus in heaven. 2 Cor 5. And Jesus was the FIRST to have that body. Not Enoch.

            //The bible tells us we will be “caught up” and that’s enough for me.//

            Yes but when? That’s the question.

          • Pete

            Skywatcher there is just so much to post, is it really a good idea to put it out here? What is your email address? Mine is pbksocial@gmail.com. I too am picking away in between work stuff.

            To address a few things…

            //By the way, what Biblical evidences do you have to support YOUR position?//

            Which part LOL?? There are so many. A lot of what I challenge people on is when they say something is in the Bible, but it is not explicitly there.

            //What is the correct definition of “shortly”? We know that a day is with the Lord as 1,000 years, and 1,000 years are as but a day. When the Holy Spirit inspired these words, he was talking from His perspective of eternity. A million years to Him is a blink of an eye.//

            So….these time references are entirely meaningless, then? Why would the Holy Spirit of God put words in the Bible that are meaningless? Or is God deliberately attempting to confuse us? Time is entirely meaningless to God….a trillion years is one second. Why would God use a timeframe at all if it means NOTHING?

            Please explain.

          • Ron

            Pete I quote you “No, I am not. I am not post-trib. I don’t believe in a coming 7 year time of hell on earth at all. The Bible never once mentions such a time”

            Obviously “it seems to appear” that you have never read Revelation by your own words since there it mentions 1260 days

            which is 3 1/2 years on a Jewish Calender

            and if you go back to Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK (7 YEARS): and in the MIDST OF THE WEEK (3.5 YEARS) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
            The Plagues of Revelation are 7 Years Long and it is HELL ON EARTH how can you not see that .

            The Confirming of this Treaty is what triggers The 7 Years of Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls and all those things mentioned in Revelation

            and this is the Rapture Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

            John witnessed The Rapture

          • Ron

            Pete everything Kiwi said about Enoch is correct, also let me give you another Scripture in case you are unfamiliar with it…..

            **Revelation 22:18-20 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,

            If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

            And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,

            God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,

            and from the things which are written in this book.

            He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.**

        • Kiwiwatcher

          Amen Angelgirl.
          “By faith Enouch was translated that he should see death, and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” Hebrews 11:5
          Only by 100% faith was Enoch translated, having a testimony, and he pleased God – a picture of the True Church. No translation with 90% faith.
          Enoch was translated 69 years prior to Noah being born. As Jesus said to the disciples, the last days will be “as in the days of Noah.”

          • Kiwiwatcher

            Apology Angelgirl for typos and dropping critical word NOT, when referring to Enoch. “By faith Enoch was translated that he should NOT see death….”

            This verse is quite the stumbling block to the faithless, and much in the way of ‘new’ but false meaning has been developed of late.

            “And Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.” Genesis 5:24

            Taken in cotext with Scripture on either side, it is reasonable to assume that Enoch did not die, but was taken from earth by God. Moses was writing the earliest family tree and wrote of their age and noted each member had DIED except for Enoch.

            Possibly Paul writing in Hebrews 11:5 confirms “Enoch was translated that he should not see death….” And could have been taken to paradise or glory as David mentioned.

            Much cherry picking error has been made from Scripture several verses later in Hebrews 11:13 “these all have died in faith not having received the promises but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them and embraced them, and confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.”
            This verse is clearly referring to Abraham, (verse 8) Sarah, Issac and Jacob who all received promises from God, but died before fruitition. Enoch did noT receive an earthly promise.

            Some people make a big deal out of John 3:13 “and no man hath ascended to heaven but He that came down from heaven….” – note, Enoch never ascended anywhere. He was translated.
            Also much is made of Hebrews 9:27 “and it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this, the judgment” this clearly shows that in a natural environment – men will physically die eventually, however Godly intervention can alter its cause. Lazurus, Enoch and Elijah spring to mind.

            Enoch represents a type of True Church, which is clearly removed/translated/changed before a period of Trouble.

          • Pete

            Kiwiwatcher, the fact remains that the scripture does not say that Enoch was translated to heaven, just that he was translated. So you are presupposing that his destination was heaven. Meanwhile you are then begging the question about “all” in Hebrews 11:13 because you ASSUME “all” doesn’t include Enoch, because you assume Enoch never died. That’s just plain bad logic. All means All. They all had promises, they all died before seeing those promises. It doesn’t say “all except Enoch.”

            Furthermore, only those with glorified spiritual bodies can stand in the holy presence of Jesus. So Enoch could not be up there in a mortal body – it has to be glorified. Problem is, the Bible clearly says Jesus was the “first fruits” of the resurrection into glorified bodies.

            Then you have the statement by Jesus that no man has ascended to heaven. It is you who nitpicks by stating that is different than being snatched up. Enoch could very easily have been taken out of a dangerous, deadly situation by God, to a safe place. Philip was similarly translated in a miraculous way (Acts 8:39).

            Try as you may, the scripture is far more likely teaching that Enoch died like everyone else. Moses could not say when he died, because he was “not found.”

            You state “Enoch represents a type of True Church”. This is not in scripture, so it is speculation at best. And if you think Enoch represents being “clearly removed/translated/changed before a period of Trouble” you have other issues….the Bible never says Enoch was removed in order to be spared the Flood. And the Flood occurred 100s of years later. Is the church going to be raptured 100s of years before the great tribulation? Enoch is never shown as coming back with the Lord in glory. I could go on…there are no parallels.

            Finally you claim that Jesus said to the disciples, the last days will be “as in the days of Noah.” This is incorrect. Jesus said that His COMING would be as the judgment of the days of Noah (and Lot, by the way). That is, the judgment would be swift, sudden and without escape. Jesus never said, nor even implied, that life on the planet would resemble Noah’s day or Lot’s day.

          • kiwiwatcher

            Pete – the fact is, only a fool puts words in someone mouth and then shoots them down to valid a weak stand point. I never said Enoch was translated to Heaven, nor do the Scriptures. Only you are mentioning Heaven my friend.
            ‘Logic’ is not a word to use whenever referring to the Word of God. It is not logical for the God to send His Son to die a hideous death, as a sacrifice for my multitude of sins, then to defeat death, and return to His Fathers right Hand – just so I can lie on my face in the presence of God. Not logical at all, however, your use of the word does give me insight to your spiritual wellness.

            You pride yourself on reading the Scriptures literally and in context, yet spend significant time and energy so far away from your claimed principals. Also – using generalizations, comparing apples to oranges, then requiring exactness (as per your 100s of years) defies belief – but then again, the True Church was warned of this occurring.
            You call it ‘nitpicks’ – I call it accuracy – only what is written in the Scriptures rather than adding ‘heaven’ and the such like. Jesus ascending to Heaven is quite different to ‘translated,’ which in turn is very close in meaning to ‘harpazo.’
            Read Deuteronomy chapter thirty to understand the righteous requirement of the one man who could ascend to God’s heaven and plead the righteous cause for Israel. Even David mentions this challenge in his Psalms:
            “Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
            He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
            He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.” Psalm 24:3-5

            Whoever dreamed up the understanding that Enoch, the world’s first prophet, could be in Heaven in a mortal body? Ah you did my friend. Only you. I had included ‘translation/changed’ as both words are used in translating from the Greek, but you may have missed it. So if Enoch was dispatched to Heaven as you claim – it is obvious the translation allows for his body to be ‘changed.’

            Disregarding the cherry picking of words, lets examine in context the complete verse – “These all have died in faith not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off and were persuaded of them and embraced them, and confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” (Hebrews 11:13)

            Several verses earlier “By faith he (Abraham) sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the promise.” (Hebrews 11:9) Very similar verse in Genesis 23:4
            Sarah is also mentioned in verse 11 “Through faith also Sarah herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.”
            What about Enoch getting a mention “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” Keeping the reading in context – there is no mention of a promise so why have you included Enoch in a group that received promises. The Scripture is quite clear and should not be twisted. In fact – the writer of Hebrews puts great emphasis on the reader understanding that Enoch was removed by mentioning ‘translated’ THREE times – just in case anyone missed it the first time. Also – Enoch was translated that he should not see death. The Scripture is quite explicit. Not removed over the hedge, down the road or in the next village, as that small shift out of immediate danger would not cause Enoch NOT to eventually die. The Bible is quite clear – Enoch was translated that he should not see death.
            Note – The King James translators included a new paragraph when referring to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sarah – showing that they believed in a clear distinction between Enoch and the Hebrew clan.

            You say “Moses could not say when he died, because he was not found.”

            Rather odd statement my friend. What Bible do you briefly scan? A modern version?? You claim Moses did not know how long Enoch was on earth. Read Genesis chapter five to gain some context. Moses wrote in verse 23 “And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years.” Oops, then Moses continues “And Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God took him.”

            So you are claiming that Enoch was on earth for 365 years then God took him and popped him over in to another village some miles away, for him to die sometime later. Moses, the man skilled in all things Egyptian, most literate, writing the Godly inspired five books of the Bible – had no idea that Enoch died – even with divine assistance. And you are claiming the writer of Hebrews made an error in stating that Enoch was ‘translated that he should not see death.’ Big call on your part. All the best with that one but prayers for you. You mention Philip was ‘translated’ in similar fashion so the two incidents are comparable. Please show the verse that plainly states Philip was translated that he should not see death.

            The definition of the Hebrew word ‘ayin (OT: 369) translated, “he was not found.” ‘Ayin, is defined as meaning, “no; not; nothing; or else, nor.” Cognates of this word appear in Akkadian, Ugaritic, and Phoenician (Punic). The word appears 789 times in biblical Hebrew and in all periods.

            ‘Ayin may be used absolutely, with no suffixes and not in a construct chain. When so used the word signifies nonexistence, rather than over the hill or round the corner. This is its use and significance in Genesis 2:5 (the first occurrence): “…and there was not a man to till the ground.” In the construct state ‘ayin has the same basic meaning. With a suffixed pronoun ‘ayin negates the existence of the one or thing so represented; with the suffixed pronoun “he,” the word means, “he was no longer.” “And Enoch walked with God: and he was [no longer]; for God took him” Genesis 5:24. This word should be distinguished from another ‘ayin meaning “whence,” or “from where

            Then notice in a bizarre move – some people attempt to bring Christ into the picture by claiming Enoch could not have been translated as Christ “was the first fruits” Again, who is claiming Enoch went to Heaven?? Where did Old Testament saints go after death?? Notice that Christ died, conquered death being resurrected. That is the ‘first fruits’ – notice death and resurrection. Please my dear friend – show me where it is written in the King James Bible that Enoch died and was resurrected.

            I am correct when Jesus said to his disciples the wickedness and ungodliness of last days will be “as the days of Noah.”
            “But as the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
            For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark.
            And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.” Matthew 24:37-39
            Notice – the first verse is a period of time or duration, while the third verse regarding the flood relates to an event – the coming of the Son of Man.

            In Genesis 6 – Noah is five hundred years old when (verse 11-12) “The earth also was corrupt before God and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, the end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them, and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”

            “And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.” Genesis 7:6
            So the Scriptures clearly show that at least 100 years prior to the flood – evilness had prevailed and that God had had enough. From Enoch’s prophecy included in Jude 1:14 – it is clear that the wickedness abounded much earlier than 100 years before the flood and most likely included all the days of Noah. Enoch was the first prophet, his son was named Methuselah – meaning, when he dies, it (the flood) will come. If everything was rosy in God’s garden then Enoch would not have named his son Methuselah. Indications are that the people were not worshipping God, singing hymns and offering sacrifices to God for their sins. Giants were in the land, and fallen angels were mating with daughters of men.

            Enoch is a type and represents the True Church. He departed the scene by God’s divine intervention 69 years prior to Noah being born. He was removed prior to spiritual torment and ultimate judgment upon the earth. Enoch is the first prophet. The Scriptures make special mention to declare Enoch seventh from Adam. The number seven in the Bible represents divine perfection, completion and is mentioned over 735 times. By faith Enoch was translated, Enoch had a testimony, Enoch walked with God, and Enoch pleased God. What an amazing Godly gathering that will make – people having those qualities. So looking forward to meeting others with the same beliefs. Oh what a great day that will be.

            As Jesus said “as were the days of Noah” – and Enoch had already been translated. Does the Rapture have to duplicate Enoch’s passage of time? Not at all. Enoch is a type, a representation, not a duplicate.
            “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” 2 Peter 3:8
            Blessings. Prayers to you.

        • Ron

          Angelgirl here is a Extremely Valid Point that By Doctrine of The Bible a Post Tribulation Rapture is Impossible!

          What happens at The Rapture?

          We get Spiritual Bodies and what did Jesus Say about those Bodies?

          Matthew 22:28-30 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

          So if we are as the Angels after we receive our Spirit Bodies

          then How Will People get married and Reproduce in the Millenium??????????????

          They wouldn’t be able to if everyone gets Raptured Post Tribulation. And why bother to go up when Christ is already coming down that makes no sense at all.

          A post Tribulation Rapture is Impossible, there would be no one to Repopulate the Earth in The Millenium.

          Also if you are saved whether you believe in The Rapture or not Christ is taking you to be with Him.

          Also your comment “You won’t be spot free.”

          if anyone is in Christ at all there are spot free that means no sin because Christ Has washed us of all sin.

          Also those Virgins you are talking about were without oil in their Lamps, meaning they had no Holy Spirit

          and if you, or anyone else is saved they are filled with God’s Holy Spirit. Many people go to church

          and think they are saved and are not and thus will be left behind.

          Matthew 25:1-13 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

          Also show me where in this Scripture is what you said

          “5 who weren’t and had to leave to take care of some last minute things they forgot.”

          You need to reference Scripture if you are going to use it people get the wrong meanings of things

          when they are not quoted in their complete form and meaning.

          You got the wedding part right about a Jewish one, but the rest leaves a lot to be desired.

          • DC

            You made some good points. The best argument for there not being a post-trib Rapture is that if there were, we could pinpoint it to the day: 7 years after the peace treaty between the AC and Israel. There would be no sense in the verse “no one knows the day or the hour.” Therefore, the Rapture and the 2nd Coming have to be 2 separate things. I’ve heard it said, “First He comes FOR His Church and then He comes WITH His Church.”

            I think Angelgirl in talking about “5 who weren’t and had to leave to take care of some last minute things they forgot” was just saying they had to go get more oil b/c they weren’t prepared. Maybe she just forgot what it was.

            I don’t know if that means that those who are believers but not watching won’t be raptured, but the message is clear to always be prepared that the Groom could come at any minute. Being shut out from the ceremony and being told He never knew you certainly paints a picture that being left behind could happen. It could be a case of watchers vs. nonwatchers, believers vs. nonbelievers, or those who are looking up rejoicing that He’s coming vs. those that think, yeah, He’s coming some day but it really doesn’t affect me right now. I hope that God is merciful with those who ARE believers but don’t know or aren’t watching and they’re pleasantly rather than despairingly surprised.

          • Ron

            DC if you know Jesus Christ You have nothing to worry about, those are virgins in that Illustration not Brides.

            Everyone who has accepted Jesus Christ will go in the Rapture those who are asleep are those during the Tribulation

            who have let their Salvation lapse. Salvation will be works based during The Tribulation and the Holy Spirit can

            depart. People’s sins will be forgiven but must be confessed each time they sin and ask for forgiveness, thus the

            illustration of when The Lord returns some won’t have a relationship with Christ ( they are without oil and are

            not allowed to enter The Kingdom i.e. The Millenium and are cast into outer darkness i.e. Hell )

          • DC

            That makes sense, Ron. Thanks.

          • Pete

            Ron, if you don’t mind here are a couple of post-tribber arguments against what you say. Just for your edification. I am not post-trib by the way. But I am definitely NOT pre-trib.

            //A post Tribulation Rapture is Impossible, there would be no one to Repopulate the Earth in The Millenium.//

            The post-trib position says that there are nations of human beings in mortal bodies left over after the battle of Armageddon:

            Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

            Those that are “left” that go up year to year are believers (trib saints) who make it through the tribulation who do not attack Christ and are left alive in their mortal bodies.

            //And why bother to go up when Christ is already coming down that makes no sense at all.//

            It makes perfect sense. The picture is that WE go out to meet HIM on His way to earth. This is actually used over and over throughout scripture. We go out and meet Him and usher Him into His kingdom on earth. Since the text never explicitly states we are taken with Him to heaven, it can easily be explained like this.

        • Ron

          Just for everyone’s knowledge if you don’t already know this you can locate and copy any Scripture plus they have alot of other Biblical Resources at this web site…..

          https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=virgins&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

          Please feel free to use, I Truly Believe We Should Always Quote Scripture as Often as Possible. IMVHO

          • Skywatcher

            Ron, you told DC, “Everyone who has accepted Jesus Christ will go in the Rapture those who are asleep are those during the Tribulation”

            That, my friend is NOT biblical! In over 50 years of being a Christian, I have NEVER heard that explanation before now! That flies in direct opposition to I Thess. 4: 14, 16! “Sleep” is a term for the dead, as Christ Himself taught: “He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.” Mt. 9: 24

            Furthermore, how can the Rapture be effective for the living part of the Body of Christ when we are preceded by the dead? I Thess. 4: 14, 15. You say the dead are resurrected during the Tribulation…this doesn’t work! Unless…you’re saying the Rapture happens post-Trib. Is that your position?

            DC, be very careful as to what you’re agreeing to! Think it through!

          • Skywatcher

            To further add to what you have so accurately stated to DC and all, Brother Ron, Israel is identified as the fig tree in Joel 1: 6, 7:

            “For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion. 7. He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree” he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.”

            Hosea 9: 10, “I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time…

            This concept of Israel being the “fig tree” is as we know, carried over in Mt. 24: 32, Mk. 13: 28; Lu. 21: 29, 30. This was so important that God had it purposely included in His Word in all these passages!

            I hope this helps somebody out there! God bless!

          • Ron

            Sky Thank and God Bless You for the additional Scripture of the Fig Tree but my memory fails me these days so I don’t remember all, but remember when someone reiterates them.

            God Bless You!

        • tiptopsaidhe

          Angel, I believe with you, that Christ will return for His bride at a time the Father appoints, but like a thief in the night. When we read those marriage parables, the virgins and the lamps, the feast where the notables were invited but wouldn’t attend, there is no language they will be given another chance…or that they will be persecuted for a time first, then allowed to join the bridegroom. They missed the bridegroom and were shut out of the marriage feast. We are ready when we make Jesus the Lord of every part of our lives. It isn’t a statement of faith, it is a calling of God to surrender our lives to Jesus. You are on your guard, because He is your guard.

          The language of the pre-trib rapture and the moving of Daniel’s 70th week to the future is based upon a commentary written in 1585 entitled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij. It was written in response to accusations by the reformers that the pope was the antichrist. It was politically motivated and isn’t scripturally sound. If you choose to believe and perpetuate Roman Catholic teaching, that is your choice, but that makes it a non-starter for me. I refuse to allow a system that disregards the blood of Christ alone as the only way to the Father to set doctrine for our study.

          Jesus and Paul said the day of judgment would come during the times of the first century. If we don’t believe them, we make them out to be liars and false prophets. So, could the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple have been the judgment they were speaking about? It is likely. If you read Josephus’ account of the Jewish/Roman war, there are bodies piled in the streets of Jerusalem horse-high. It’s a gruesome account of destruction. Does that mean that Jesus won’t still be returning for His bride? It may just change the way we think about that event.

          I love that you went back to the marriage language. Now, how do we reconcile that language without RCC heresy?

          My best regards to you.

        • Kiwiwatcher

          Jewish customs play a reasonable role in further understanding of the Scripture.

          If leaving a table and not wishing to return to continue dining, a jew would leave his napkin crumpled, but neatly folded if wishing to return to complete the meal.

          Only in beloved Johns gospel can one read of His empty tomb being examined “and the napkin thwas about His head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together (folded) in a place by itself.” John 20:7

          He’s Coming Back…….praise God

          • Pete

            kiwiwatcher, ye gads. That’s a lot of writing. I did NOT mean to put words in your mouth, I am sorry. 100% of everybody I have ever talked to about this subject believes Enoch never died and that he went to heaven. Or paradise, or whatever. The point is they say he was raptured out of this planet without dying into eternity. And I don’t think the scripture backs that up. If one believes that from the get-go, it can be read into the verses like you are doing. But that is eisegesis, because too many other explicit verses refute that claim.

            It isn’t “twisting” the Bible to claim that “these all died” include Enoch. I am merely reading it for what it says, my friend. Disagree if you wish. Obviously I think YOU are “twisting” the Bible.

            You wrote //Whoever dreamed up the understanding that Enoch, the world’s first prophet, could be in Heaven in a mortal body? Ah you did my friend. Only you.//

            LOL. “Only me”? No, I have heard MANY people make this claim. I was taught this from a child. Your attempts at marginalizing me don’t work. I guarantee you that 99% of the people reading this page were taught this.

            //So if Enoch was dispatched to Heaven as you claim – it is obvious the translation allows for his body to be ‘changed.’//

            Again I don’t CLAIM this at all, I was merely responding to the claims others have made. And again now you run into the issue that Jesus was the firstfruits of them that slept. Only Jesus is described as having an immortal spiritual glorified body. Nobody else, yet.

            //The Bible is quite clear – Enoch was translated that he should not see death.//

            I agree that this is clear. But it’s how it’s interpreted that matters, and this could be interpreted the same way as me saying that I was about to be run over by a car when I was 2 years old, but my father shoved me out of the way, and I did not see death. You are assuming that “not see death” means he never died. And “translated” doesn’t only mean that his body is completely transformed into glory. It also merely means “moved.” I already pointed out that Phillip was moved in a similar fashion.

            Again you are using your own interpretation to dance around and make the bible fit. It is far more likely that the verses in Hebrews 11 and other places mean exactly what they plainly say. You are allowing YOUR interpretation of difficult language to override CLEAR language in other places.

            //You say “Moses could not say when he died, because he was not found.” Rather odd statement my friend. What Bible do you briefly scan? A modern version??//

            Your bitter sarcasm is unhelpful, and I use the King James 100% of the time.

            //You claim Moses did not know how long Enoch was on earth.//

            Er….NO I DIDN’T. I claimed Moses didn’t know how long Enoch LIVED. You like sarcasm? Learn how to read and process information before you foolishly make your own sarcastic statements.

            //Read Genesis chapter five to gain some context. Moses wrote in verse 23 “And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years.” Oops,//

            OOPS! It doesn’t say Enoch died. Isn’t that your entire POINT? Are you actually following this discussion???

            //then Moses continues “And Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God took him.”//

            Right. Moses is saying that the days of Enoch were 365 years before God took him away. Since I believe Enoch was moved to a safe place where he later died, and nobody knew where that was for protection, nobody knows just how long Enoch died. And we know he died because HEBREWS 11 SAYS HE DID. PERIOD. What Bible do YOU scan?????

            Bottom line: this is a lousy silly teaching, and none of this matters anyway, because the Bible itself never makes the claim that Enoch is a picture of the church being raptured to heaven prior to 7 years of hell on earth.

          • kiwiwatcher

            WARNING -WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING
            Brothers and sisters – tis not worth tangling with Pete.
             “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;” 2 Timothy 4:3

            “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” Matthew 7:6

            Pete – this is not a silly teaching at all. It is a significant segment which dovetails with a pre-tribulation Rapture that you and other faithless are attempting to dismantle. Your statements show that your poor interpretations of the Scriptures are foolhardy, leave you on the other side of the Great Divide. Shame you can not study the Bible in context, being filled with the Holy Spirit. Would be good if you could write/speak the truth.
            Also, twould be grand if you would quote full verses of Scriptures if attempting to make a point. Context, as you say, is most significant in correctly interpreting the Bible, rather than cherry-picking a word here and there.

            You claim to study the Scriptures in context but clearly refrain from doing so. Your method of study is very dark. An example to show how you apply or cherry pick, to make single interpretations of ‘one shoe fits all’ – is a disastrous technique.

            Example – Last night I made wild passionate “love” to my wife. Today, I will lunch with my children who I “love” very much. I also “love” my cat, but right at this moment I would “love” a cup of coffee. Your single word interpretation and transfer to other verses would have me copulating with all and sundry, and obviously liable for apprehension. This method of interpretation is designed to lead you down the path of iniquity.

            You also state to another poster “all of the above is a nice story but the Bible never says ANY of it” then you weave a tale of Enoch being “moved to safe place where he later DIED, and nobody knew where that was for protection, nobody knows just how long Enoch died.” Please DO NOT ACCUSE someone of a practice you are very much familiar with – making up stories. Furthermore, Moses clearly states how long Enoch was on earth for – 365 years. I refuse to water down the divinely inspired Scriptures to accommodate your brand of gospel.

            To dig out of a hole you use the phase ‘I have heard MANY people make this claim” and bizarrely “Again I don’t CLAIM this at all, I was merely responding to the claims others have made”
            First, my children refrained from using ‘others doing it too’ as an excuse many long years ago – I am surprised to find an apparent ‘christian man’ to be using a similar phase. When standing before the Judgment Seat – your ‘other people told me’ will not wash and is an ungodly claim.

            Secondly, your method of bringing other people’s garbage into a discussion and then denying your support of it – reeks also of an ungodly principal. Two thousand years ago, I am sure that you would find favor with either the Pharisees or Sadducees.

            Your ‘2 year old’ tale is a case of bringing oranges to the apple table. Surely you could have stated that you only ever obtained the age of two as Moses recorded had with Enoch, 365 years. There has been sightings of you since your near-death experience. However, in the case of Enoch – no sightings were recorded of this great prophet and preacher of God’s Word during a time of great ungodliness on earth. Are you suggesting that God forgot about his first prophet, after transferring him to another village, and was just filled with remorse, wringing His Hands, wondering what to do. Enoch’s experience could NEVER be interpreted with the concept you have dreamed up.

            First you said “Moses could not say when he died, because he was “not found.”
            Which you denied to say “I claimed Moses didn’t know how long Enoch LIVED”
            My Bible clearly has the articulate and divinely inspired Moses stating “And ALL THE DAYS OF ENOCH were three hundred sixty and five years.” (Genesis 5:23) He then follows up with ”
            “And Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God took him.”
            How old do you think Enoch was? This Scripture has been read in the Synagogues for thousands of years, to illiterate masses, and all have understood Enoch living on earth until he was 365 years of old and then God removed him. But you, in the modern age of enlightenment – have another interpretation. All the best with it, but one thing is very apparent – your new interpretations are not of God.

            Due to the verses on either side of Moses making reference to Enoch – it clearly states the age “and he died” so many times that many people have observed a pattern. But Enoch WAS NOT, for God took him. Quite clearly showing that at the very ‘young age’ (for those days) of 365 – Enoch was removed by God.

            Not removed and placed round the corner with your modern self interpretation of the Scripture. Please do read your King James.

            There is no mention made of his death, and in this respect the account of Enoch stands by itself. It is, except in this case, the uniform custom of Moses to mention the age and the death of the individuals whose biography he records in the previous and following verses and in many cases this is about all that is said of them. However, in regard to Enoch there is this remarkable exception that no record is made of his death – showing that there was something unusual in the manner of his removal from the world.

            How did the early Jews view the Enoch saga?
            In the Targum of Onkelos it is evidently supposed that Enoch was transported without dying. In that Targum the passage in Genesis 5:24 is rendered, “And Enoch walked in the fear of the Lord, and was not, for the Lord did not put him to death” – לּה lo’ – ‘amiyt yityeh Yahweh. So also in Ecclesiasticus or the Son of Sirach (49:14), “But upon the earth was no man created like Enoch; for he was taken from the earth.” These opinions of the Jews and of the early translators, are of value only as showing that the interpretation which Paul in Hebrews has put upon Genesis 5:2 is the natural interpretation. It is such as occurs to separate writers, without collusion, and thus shows that this is the meaning most naturally suggested by the passage.

            My friends inform me that you are scholar of biblical matters on the web, rather than purely from the Scriptures as you claim “I use the King James 100% of the time.” I simply do not believe you as your doctrine is plucked from the internet and not the Bible.

            Evidence from your dialogue shows you use web-based doctrine, quotations, and understanding. Unsound web based doctrine in this topic includes ‘Jesus as the first fruits,’ ‘Enoch not having a glorified body.’
            I am not surprised as many ‘ministry’ sites are purely of the devil, appearing as lamb but will deceive many…even those who claim to be a follower of Christ.

            “These all have died in faith not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off and were persuaded of them and embraced them, and confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” (Hebrews 11:13)
            A classic error from a web-based mission to deny God’s divine ability in removing Enoch without him experiencing death. The error and major plank they use, is to claim the promises made to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Sarah in the above verse are Spiritual promises, therefore should include Enoch. However, their method of interpretation is in serious error. If the writer of Hebrews meant Spiritual promises – then what is the point in mentioning the verse at all. The above verse states “these all have died in faith not having received the promises,” meaning earthly promises
            “And I will make my covenant between me and thee (Abram), and will multiply thee exceedingly.
            3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
            4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
            5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
            6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
            7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
            8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” Genesis 17:2-8

            As the writer of Hebrews declared – Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sarah, all died prior to their promises being fulfilled, but they clung to the promises having seen signs of the promises on the horizons.
            Another method of the satanic inspired new interpretations on the internet is to include Philip, as though the Enoch and Philip experience are compatible. Philip was observed by many people after being snatched up and placed in a new location, however, the world’s first prophet Enoch totally disappeared from the face of the earth. No comparison other than in a straw-clutcher’s mind.

          • kiwiwatcher

            (Additional material)
            22 “And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
            23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
            24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” Genesis 5:22-24
            In verse 22, Hebrew word for ‘walked’ – ‘halak’ supported with ‘eth,’ in this context describes ‘observation,’ ‘support’ or ‘possible ownership.’ When placed in context ‘walked’ – ‘halak-eth’ implies that the relationship between our Lord and Enoch was similar to that between the Lord and a priest or evangelist.
            In verse 24, the Hebrew word for ‘walked’ – ‘halak’ can be translated in several ways but in context the most appropriate would be ‘travel with’ or ‘join’ or ’emerge.’ The beginning of the verse reads as thus ‘Chanowk halak elohiym,’ which literally reads as ‘Enoch travelled with angels.’ ‘Elohiym’ in the King James is translated as a proper noun, hence reference to our Lord God. ‘Enoch travelled/walked with God’.
            ‘And he was not’ – ‘Ayin,’ ‘no’ ‘not’ ‘nothing’ ‘nor’ or in context ‘he was nonexistant.’ ‘not among the living.’

            The last section of the verse ‘for God took him,’ – ‘elohiym laqach’ literally means ‘angels have taken physically,’ or ‘physically taken by angels.’ However, within the context of the verse ‘for God took him.’
            There also exists a distinct second translation of the last section of the Hebrew verse related to ‘laqach.’ This secondary application shows ‘laqach’ is translated as meaning the person in question was SENT to be with our Lord God and His angels. Using the ancient vernacular of the time – ‘to meet with his maker.’
            My learned contacts very much all state that scholars of ancients texts, manuscripts and early Middle Eastern dialects – agree – that the original Hebrew shows that Enoch was physically removed to be in the presence of our Lord God. This thinking has been matched with the deluge of ‘mystical books’ etc related to the name of Enoch throughout the ages.

            Just to follow up my Noah comment, to which you have fallen silent Pete. You pathetically stated that I “have other issues” and mockingly suggested that “Is the church going to be raptured 100s of years before the great tribulation?”
            Who cares? I had stated earlier that Enoch represents a type of True Church which is clearly removed before a period of Trouble. I did not describe the trouble but you clutched to another straw and declared ‘great tribulation.’ So I shall elaborate for your benefit as I originally, but mistakenly, assumed you were a student of the Scriptures. My humble apology.
            Dont mention sarcasm my friend. You have only been touched by a feather duster. Havent even began to get started with the sarcasm…..still time yet.

            I wish to make it quite clear that Jesus stated the last days will like the days of Noah, and that the True Church (Enoch Type) will be long gone. Any sound student of the King James Bible already knows the days of Noah begin with his birth, the flood being 600 years later. Enoch was translated 69 years prior to Noah being born. (possibly a magic number for some – 69)
            “And he (his father Lamech) called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort (nacham) us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed (arar).” Genesis 5:29

            Noah means – ‘rest,’ ‘save’ ‘be quiet’ or ‘depart’ from the root word ‘nuach.’
            A more accurate translation would be ‘this same shall save us.’

            Our interest has been piqued. Why are ancient ruling class needing comforted or saved so early from the Garden of Eden? ‘ma’aseh itstsahbown yad min adamah….’ in original Hebrew ‘….from the actions and evil of our hands in our nation…’
            Add ‘nacham’ and ‘arar’ on either end and ‘saves us from the actions and evil of our hands in our nation the Lord has cursed.’
            Enoch’s son – Lamech obviously is aware that all is not well and civilisation is going downhill fast. Society must have been creaking and groaning in Enoch’s day too, as he speaks of judgement (Jude 1:15) and describes people as murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts, speaking great swelling words, and having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage. Very much like spiritual conditions today.
            So the reader of the Scriptures is now aware that Noah’s father, Lamech, is convinced the world system is wicked and intends to ‘groom’ his son to play a part in saving a Godly remnant.

            BTW Pete, I found your Matthew narrative related to Revelation to be complete nonsense. But if you believe your interpretation to be true. The very simple method is to provide for me please, the historic destination the Christians fled to in 70AD to escape the Roman siege of Jerusalem? Historians have documented the site – so according to you – it will match the Bible – Gods Word. If you can not do that – you are SO VERY WRONG.

            Pete – your apology is accepted on the basis you are sorry for being caught for putting word’s in my mouth and then slamming me. Currently, its accepted as lip service as your genuine repentance is yet to come.

            Blessings. Massive prayers as you are desperately in need.

          • Ron

            I Totally Agree Kiwiwatcher, WARNING, WARNING, WARNING STAY AWAY FROM PETE’S FALSE DOCTRINES

            Kiwiwatcher are you from Australia, or Southern Indonesia? Just Curious and are you male or female?

            Because I don’t want to call you a Bro and you are a Sis. God Bless You Kiwi!

          • Pete

            Kiwi, I fail to see why you are holding on to this doctrine of Enoch so tightly, as if it matters to the Gospel. Goodness sake. Let it go. You might be wrong, I might be wrong. Scripture doesn’t explicitly state that Enoch never died. Accept it and move on. Your interpretation is just that – an interpretation.

          • Pete

            Kiwiwatcher, you are a liar and should be ashamed.

            You write //First, my children refrained from using ‘others doing it too’ as an excuse many long years ago – I am surprised to find an apparent ‘christian man’ to be using a similar phase. When standing before the Judgment Seat – your ‘other people told me’ will not wash and is an ungodly claim.//

            You are twisting what I wrote completely out of context and you know it. I was responding to YOUR claim that somehow the idea of Enoch being in heaven was fabricated by me personally. That’s the ONLY thing I meant by this and you know it. This is only one example of at least 3 where you deliberately twist my words out of order in a desperate attempt to discredit.

            You have good scripture and thoughts behind your beliefs. Why not just stick to those?

            Then you suggest “Two thousand years ago, I am sure that you would find favor with either the Pharisees or Sadducees.”

            So based on a few posts on a message board, within the framework of a topic that is very difficult and that few people totally agree…you are lumping me in with children of Satan? Whom Jesus personally cursed and cast into hellfire? You better watch what you say. Remember that judgment seat applies to you as well.

            I take back my apology. Based on your outrageous, hypocritical, abusive response, you don’t deserve it.

            //Blessings. Massive prayers as you are desperately in need.//

            Take this and quite frankly, shove it. I don’t need prayers OR blessings from liars like you. It would end up being a curse.

          • kiwiwatcher

            Pete – there is no need for me to attempt to discredit you. Not at all my friend. The Bible and you already carry out the task admirably. My assistance adds very little to your demise. A good piece of advice would to put down the M16 before you fill your other foot full of holes. Thank you for not posting any Scripture it clearly shows your reverence towards God’s Word and your state of mind.
             “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” Colossians 3:16

            I sense you have experienced the loss of someone close to you…perhaps up to several years ago, and are reacting in such a manner.

            And here you are again playing semantics – PLEASE NOTE: I never claimed that you personally fabricated the idea of Enoch being in Heaven as you are suggesting. What does that make you??

            Yes, I did set out a few juicy ones and you swallowed them, hook, line and sinker. Why? Because sometimes I like to catch something every now and then. I mentioned you standing before the Judgment Seat – you have NOT disputed this scenario. The Bema seat is for me. No doubt whatsoever my friend. And standing I shall not – as showed and represented by the elders.
            “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
            Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” Revelation 4:10-11

            Dont play the victim and say that I have lumped you in with the children of satan. You have done so by your own accord. Why did you capitilize the word satan?? Respected friend of yours?? By there deeds ye shall know them.

            It is quite obvious you are not a Born-again Believer. BY FAITH (as with Enoch) my brothers, sisters in Christ and I will be Raptured. Currently your ‘faith’ will have your feet firmly planted on the ground at the sound of the trump. Rather than a trump – I guess that it will sound like a clap of thunder to you. Yes, I did feel sure that you would find favor with either Pharisees or Sadducees, but I am not so sure now. Both sects required solid debaters with a sound grasp of Biblical matters, and you my friend – fall short.

            Why do I hold onto “on to this doctrine of Enoch so tightly, as if it matters to the Gospel.”
            Only a non-Born-Again Christian could ever utter that question.
            Your status confirmed, if there ever was any doubt when you said “Goodness sake. Let it go.”
            No my friend. NOT EVER. And that is the major difference between us. I am Heaven bound.
            Then you bizarrely say “You might be wrong, I might be wrong. Scripture doesn’t explicitly state that Enoch never died.”
            Sorry – God’s Word declares you are so very wrong. “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;….” Hebrews 11:5

            Unfortunately, you can not take back your apology. That process was done away as a child. As I said earlier – it was accepted as shallow it was intended. For your own benefit my friend.

            “Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.”
            Proverbs 29:20

            Blessings. Massive prayers as you are desperately in need.

          • Pete

            Kiwiwatcher writes “PLEASE NOTE: I never claimed that you personally fabricated the idea of Enoch being in Heaven as you are suggesting. What does that make you??”

            This was posted earlier by Kiwiwatcher: “Whoever dreamed up the understanding that Enoch, the world’s first prophet, could be in Heaven in a mortal body? Ah you did my friend. Only you.”

            Regardless of whether Kiwi intended to claim that I had personally dreamed up this teaching, s/he is still twisting my words by mockery and accusation: “When standing before the Judgment Seat – your ‘other people told me’ will not wash and is an ungodly claim”. This is not at all the context of my remarks, and Kiwi knows it.

            And Kiwi dares to continue treading in dangerous waters with the comment “I mentioned you standing before the Judgment Seat – you have NOT disputed this scenario.” Kiwi, there is a lot I have “not disputed”. I have stated clearly on this page that I am Bible-believing born again Christian, I don’t owe you proof of anything at all. You owe me the basic courtesy that everybody else gets: allowing that people are being honest about their standing before God. You don’t have nearly enough information to judge my state of soul.

            You clearly don’t have a sweet clue what it means to actually carry out 1 Corinthians 13. I can only hope that the lost are not reading this page, because Kiwi’s treatment of others doesn’t represent what the church is all about.

          • kiwiwatcher

            Pete my friend. You are in worse condition than I first imagined. You received more than enough courtesy my friend, since it was you that charged into my environment. A good walk in the sunshine will do you good.

            Your method of cherry picking words and sentences is diabolical. Please read in context. As in context the meaning is quite clear to you, but you return hours later “as a dog returneth it his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.” (Proverbs 26:11) to extract a sentence out of context and make outrageous claims.

            As in context – I was commenting to Angelgirl when you decided to interrupt to stamp your foreign gospel. In doing so – you introduced bizarre material as if to build a great learned viewpoint – at this state there was no ridiculous mention of Enoch being in Heaven in a mortal body. BUT YOU DID. Hence my reply which was totally related to the discussion.
             “Whoever dreamed up the understanding that Enoch, the world’s first prophet, could be in Heaven in a mortal body? Ah you did my friend. Only you.” as in the context of the discussion or comments.

            Where you got it from my friend, is irrelevant. You were the person using the phrase, and introduced the ridiculous notion, hence you are responsible for your utterances. Don’t blame others. As a man – you put away childish things apparently.

            Three words of advice my friend. Context, context, context. Without context – you end up with an early chicken on your face, and your life a Scriptural mess.

            What is the measurement or requirement that is necessary to judge your state of soul?? Hmm?

            You are steadily getting worse my friend. It is not necessary nor is it a requirement for me to judge the state of your soul. God is happy enough to do that. But I am commanded to have a reasonable level of discernment. How else will I know who to associate with, and who not to associate with.

            “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.” 1 Corinthians 5:11

            “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.” 1 Corinthians 15:33

            “Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.” Proverbs 14:7

            “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” Ephesians 5:11

            An excellent example of how the True Church should conduct itself, and the reason why some people are fleeing from you.

            BTW my friend – I stand in very tranquil waters, much like a millpond.

            Blessings. Massively long prayers as you are desperately in need.

          • RApture Rooster

            WOW! Kiwiwatcher, I just read what so far, is your latest post to Pete; I couldn’t “hook onto” it. No offense to you, but it seems to me that God also took Elijah out of this world in a mortal body… So now, we have two…Enoch and Elijah. The plot thickens, but if I were you, my very dear brother in Christ, Forget the fig leaf! I’d get me a HUGE rhubarb leave to cover this little Peter with…to smother it! 🙂

  • Correction America’s war with China is in the middle of the last 7 years or in 2025 or sooner but 3.5 years after Israel war.

  • Donna R Brown

    This is the first time I walked into the voting booth with such uncertainty. We’ve all experienced that “lesser of two evils” voting decision, but this time was different. I truly didn’t know.
    I like so much of what Trump says about his plans for the US, but I truly hope he is being sincere. A lot of people think that if we put all our eggs in Trump’s basket, the joke’s on us when he goes into the White House and flips the script back to the left.
    He was a fan of the Clintons not too long ago. He was a fan of Planned Murderhood. He only changed his tune when he became a serious contender.
    What do you think, Geoffrey? And the rest of you? Any thoughts on this?
    Thanks, y’all.

    • I put NO faith in ANY of the candidates and ALL faith in Jehovah God to bring prophecy to come to pass. I voted Trump for all the reasons I stated in my article. I am EXCITED to see the global elites quaking in their boots.

      These ARE the days of prophecy!

      • Skywatcher

        Brother Geoffrey, I don’t mean to be the fly in the ointment, but like Donna R. Brown, I’m wondering if DT’s enemies aren’t just posturing? I can see the snakes do this, just to make this a really exciting electoral campaign, and then once DT gets in, he’ll do an about face…as Ovomit did. I surely hope not; time will tell…if we’re still here! 🙂

        • sooz22

          Yes, they may be “posturing,” and they can posture all they want. God has allowed the right person to be in place. It’s all in God’s plan. God is still in control. Let God do his job.

          • Skywatcher

            sooz22, I didn’t think for a moment that I was hindering the Almighty! Sorry, if you thought I was even remotely in His way!

        • It’s about to become like the “wild west” not just in America but globally as well.

          • Ron

            Well considering after the first 4 seals that at least 1.25 Billion people will die as a minimum and possibly as

            many as 1.75 Billion since 1/4 of mankind dies.

            That must be why The Lord is putting muslims in every country possibly.

            Yes Geoffrey “wild west” is the perfect description.

          • Pete

            //That must be why The Lord is putting muslims in every country possibly.//

            What????? Maybe the Lord is putting Muslims in every country so that they will come into contact with Christians and hear the Gospel. The Lord is about SAVING people, not destroying them. The twisted dispie mentality likes death and destruction, which is another reason to expose it’s seedy underbelly to the light of the truth.

      • Ron

        It seems we have a lot of “lets not vote for Trump” up here now Geoffrey

        so I will keep posing this to any naysayers

        You do Realize that a No vote for Trump,

        OR a Vote For A Person Who HAS NO HOPE Of Winning,

        is the same as giving a vote for Hillary Clinton

        • Tracy

          @Ron,
          Right, please don’t allow Hillary to be elected/selected. She is evil to the core. It’s true, we don’t know everything about Trump, nor his plans, however, from the depths of my soul, I feel total wickedness coming from Hillary. It’s in her eyes, her voice, etc. It’s just there!!!

          • Ron

            Yes Indeed Tracy I feel it too, she is just like wicked Jezebel of The Bible, you describe it very well.

  • Dee

    I voted for Trump today, after agonizing for weeks between him and Cruz. It was only after I realized the following that I made up my mind:

    China is afraid of him.
    Russia is afraid of him.
    Mexico is afraid of him.
    Saudi Arabia is afraid of him.
    Iran is afraid of him.
    George Soros is afraid of him.
    The Koch Brothers are afraid of him.
    The Republican Establishment is afraid of him.
    The Democratic Establishment is afraid of him.

    All of the above either hate us and/or are bleeding us dry through foreign aid, unequal trade agreements, etc. Trump is the only person who has managed to unite all those who hate us or want to take what belongs to us. They aren’t united because they are concerned for America’s best interests; rather, they fear for their own interests. That was the best – and only – reason I needed to cast my ballot for Trump today.

  • Timea

    Trump is best neutral on Israel, he is pro choice, well, until he started to run for president. I cannot vote or support Trump who does not stand up for Gods chosen people and does not care about murdering babies. He stated that he has never asked for forgiveness from God because he never done anything wrong. As a Christian, I will face my redeemer one day, I will have to account for voting for a non Christian, Trump.

    • Ron

      You do Realize that a No vote for Trump,

      OR a Vote For A Person Who HAS NO HOPE Of Winning,

      is the same as giving a vote for Hillary Clinton

  • Martus

    I don’t think Trump will survive to be president and if Hillary gets in then I recommend all of God’s people leave New York city and after the destruction of New York city leave the U.S. When the destruction of New York city occurs there is a female president.

    Revelation 18:4-8New International Version (NIV)
    Warning to Escape Babylon’s Judgment

    4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

    “‘Come out of her, my people,’
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
    5
    for her sins are piled up to heaven,
    and God has remembered her crimes.
    6
    Give back to her as she has given;
    pay her back double for what she has done.
    Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
    7
    Give her as much torment and grief
    as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
    In her heart she boasts,
    ‘I sit enthroned as queen.
    I am not a widow;
    I will never mourn.’
    8
    Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
    death, mourning and famine.
    She will be consumed by fire,
    for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

    Babylon was given 70 years to rule the nations and then the destruction of Babylon would occur over 2 years. The United Nations have been in New York city for almost 70 years.

    Jesus was gone 2 days and the 3rd they He came back, Hosea tells us that in 2 days we will be given New Life and the 3rd day Jesus will be with us, Psalms and Peter tell us a day of God’s is a 1000 years, 2000 years of the new life(Holy Spirit) will be completed 2030AD so everything else must occur before then. PS the day that Jesus is with us can be found in Revelation – the 1000 year rule of Christ.

    • TorchbearerforJesus

      Martus, you raise a good point…Hitler Hillary for president…until now, this thought never crossed my mind: How well will Muslim clerics get along with a female president? If DT is “taken out” and Hitler II comes to power, will they also take her out and raise up another Muslim?

      Something tells me that we don’t have enough time to see all this come about. There’s too much happening too fast, and it’s biblical in nature!

      Keep looking up, Brother! I’m on the same plane as Geoffrey, and I too, hear the engines warming up!

    • Ron

      You do Realize that a No vote for Trump,

      OR a Vote For A Person Who HAS NO HOPE Of Winning,

      is the same as giving a vote for Hillary Clinton

      • DC

        I just made the same point elsewhere. What do you think will happen, Ron, if there’s a brokered convention? Sounds like the dirtiest of politics to me, but, as quoted in one article today, the RNC believe THEY choose the candidate, not the people. I thought our gov’t was “of the people, by the people, for the people!”

        • Tracy

          @DC,
          They are showing their true colors now. And like others, I truly hope that Trump’s shaking them up. Just my opinion, but I honestly don’t think the establishment is going to out-do Trump. Anyway, God’s got this too!!

    • Ron

      Martus You do realize that…..

      Revelation 17:1-9 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
      This is Rome home of the False prophet.
      The UN and New York City are not full of the Blood of the Saints, Rome is.

  • John Jones

    Trump will be like Hitler…so even if he fulfills prophecy, why should we vote him in? Should we support an antichrist to speed Jesus’ return?

    • john,john,john take your meds and step away from the edge of the cliff. the sky is not falling and it will be ok if teddy cruz does not win.

    • As someone who is a student of WWII and Nazi history, I can safely say that Trump and Hitler have nothing in common. Now Hitler and Obama have a lot in common.

      • JoHN Jones

        Brother Geoffrey, we shall see. 🙂

      • Ron

        Amen to that Truth Geoffrey.

    • Trober

      Get real. Trump hasn’t called for killing MILLIONS of people via ethnic cleansing.

    • Ron

      You do Realize that a No vote for Trump,

      OR a Vote For A Person Who HAS NO HOPE Of Winning,

      is the same as giving a vote for Hillary Clinton

  • char

    Roger King, you had my attention til you said the rapture was after the tribulation. NOT SO!!!! YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THAT!!!
    Haven’t you read enough posts on this website (and scriptures) to see that the rapture is a PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE!!!!!?????

  • John Jones

    I think it is really important as Christians to not get fixed on the idea of a pre-trib rapture. It might be pre-trib, it might not. Same with the tribulation, do we know for sure that there will be a 7 year tribulation? Not really, maybe or maybe not. And if there is, will it be soon? Maybe it will be in the next 10 years, or maybe the next 100 years. What is important is that we honor God in our lives every day and live a practical Christian life trusting that in the end, everything will pan out. God has it under control.

    • guest

      The Bible teaches quite clearly the Tribulation will literally be 7 years, followed by a literal 1,000 year rule by Christ. The Bema Seat judgment determines our privileges and what role(s) we’ll play in Christ’s kingdom.

      However, if you wind up at the White Throne judgment, then you’re in deep trouble. All your sins and deeds will be looked at to determine what punishment fits you for all eternity. It’s scary… but also totally avoidable.

      But circling back, the Bible does clearly teach the time period of the Tribulation. No maybes about it. I encourage you to read Daniel and Revelation back to back and I pray the Lord will help you see that it’s 7 years designated for Jacob, i.e., Israel.

      • DC

        Excellent. You obviously READ the bible.

        • Skywatcher

          DC, you said, “Skywatcher, that was just excellent. You actually use your words to SAY SOMETHING.”

          Thank you, for the compliment. It’s not hard to “say something” when one uses the WHOLE Book! God has given us more than enough evidence for a Pre-trib rapture! 🙂 GB!

          • Edwitness

            Skywatcher,
            Speaking of the year it is on the Jewish calendar, do you remember in Tom Horn’s book Zenith 2016, where he said that the Mayan calendar has some interesting “coincidences” with it? Tom gave an interesting refresher on what he wrote on this on SkywatchTV today. Here is a summary of what he said on the program today.

            Tom Horn wrote Zenith 2016. In it he tells the story about the Meso-americans (Aztecs/Mayans) that have a prophecy in their calendar stone much like that of the great seal of the US. The novus ordo seclorum. At the end of what they refer to as the long count, Dec. 2012, the cosmos will roll over. And the final epoch (age) of man would begin. What is in their texts sounds very much like what we find in the book of Rev.

            Richard Luxton wrote that the dates that accompany the illustrations (mixing his shamanism w/ his new found faith in Christ) is the final 13 steps countdown from what he called the colonial count, 1776, would be followed by the 13 steps which would lead to the revealing of their god. Having 13 steps, it is 12 from the starting point to the eye of Horus. Each step represents 19.7 years in their calendar according to Masonic teaching. Beginning at the 1st step and counting to the eye of Horus, you come to the number 2012.4 when you add it to 1776. When using the Gregorian calendar 20 years is the number it translates to and ends at the year 2016. They believe that the god of the underworld who guards the bones of the giants (Gen.6) will release them in 2016. And at that time Osiris will come to power.

            JR Church said that from the Zohar cabalist rabbis 700 years ago determined when Messiah will appear. They found that Messiah would reveal himself secretly to rabbis in Jerusalem in the year 5773. That year translates in the Gregorian calendar to the year 2012 to 2013. Today some of the most respected rabbis in Israel are saying the Messiah is here. And that his revealing of himself to the rest of the world is so near that they are telling rabbinic students in Jerusalem not to travel from the city.

            David Flynn while speaking about the precision of the equinoxes said that the constellations are the same now as they were at the time of Noah. Jesus said things would be the same at the time of His return as they were in Noah’s day.

            Mason’s like Manly Palmer Hall and others were very much influenced by the Meso-American prophecies. An artist named Bandini was sent by the Vatican to Aztec/Mayan sites in S. America to study and copy the calendar stone in order to bring those copies back to the Vatican. On his way back he first stopped in Washington DC. While there he was asked to paint the Capitol dome (the belly of Isis) in DC. His painting is a depiction of an apotheosis. George Washington becoming a god.

            Interestingly, Washington DC is laid out to tell the Egyptian story of Isis and Osiris. In ancient Egypt It’s purpose was to serve as a generator to draw the seed of Osiris out of the underworld so that he could incarnate into every Pharaoh. While every American president is being inaugurated a ceremony takes place at the House of the Temple in DC, where 33rd degree Mason’s raise the spirit of Osiris. It is done in the hope that the American leader will one day literally become the incarnation of Osiris.

            This is what the New Testament calls the arrival of the AC.

            I know you have read much of Tom’s material on the subject of the end times. So I thought this would bring back some of what you know about it. Tom is not setting any dates and is careful to make that clear when he tells what he has discovered. And neither am I for that matter. But, the nearness of Jesus’ return should be so comforting to Christians. I know I got very excited while watching the program today. What a blessing! Edge of your seat kind of stuff.
            Anyway, God bless you brother as you continue to defend the faith that was once delivered to the saints.
            And MARANATHA!!! He really is coming very soon.
            Blessings:-}

      • John Jones

        I understand your interpretation. I have thoroughly studied all sides of this issue and at one time was 100% pretrib. yes, I realize that from a certain perspective there appears to be lots of scripture supporting the pre-trib rapture, but I think it is important to maintain an open mind about this subject on which the Bible is not 100% explicit. I repeat that practical Christian living is the more important issue, because of all of the prophecy/end times stuff is not that important. God has it under control and that is all we need to know. It is interesting to speculate on stuff, sure, but let us not make fast and firm predictions that often fail and let us maintain an open mind about other eschatological perspectives.

        • Ron

          Prophecy is not that IMPORTANT!????!!!! I beg to differ God would not Give Us His Word which is about 30% prophecy

          and then expect us to make a determination of, and I QUOTE you “I repeat that practical Christian living is the more important issue, because of all of the prophecy/end times stuff is not that important.”

          You show me where God said that in His Word, but I’ll tell you what He Said:

          2 Timothy 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

          God did not say some of His Word He Said “ALL”

          This is also unscriptural

          It is interesting to speculate on stuff, sure, but let us not make fast and firm predictions that often fail and let us maintain an open mind about other eschatological perspectives.

          There are no other perspectives except those which God Has Said.

        • DC

          Prophecy is 28% to 33% (depending on who did the stats) prophecy. We can’t ignore 1/4 to 1/3 of the bible.

          • Ron

            I agree DC and God Says we shouldn’t ignore it either. What I would really like to know is where these people come up with this?

            Itching ears listening to prosperity preachers most likely and not being Bereans.

          • John Jones

            Ron- you are making assumptions that you cannot prove. You don’t know me so who are you to judge?

        • Ron

          You are right I don’t know you but I can Judge what you are saying, and you are wrong. Enoch was Raptured before The Flood.
          And the Church will be before The Tribulation.

      • Ron

        Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

        Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

        9:27 is the last 7 years of those 70 years which will be played out in the Tribulation. and the Book of Revelation points those 7 years are 360 day years for a total of 2520 days with the midpoint (3 1/2 years ) at the 1260 day mark.

        • DC

          Ron, I just read somewhere yesterday about the 360 day year of the Jewish calendar (which I did know), and they said that every so often they add a month–a “leap” month–to make up for lost days (which I didn’t know). Now I wish I remembered where I read it b/c it talked about our calendar being off 4 yrs.(knew but never understood), how we changed calendars, etc. It’s all very interesting, but when you explain it in days it makes sense for the Trib. You are quite clear and correct in this. Thanks!

          What I’m confused about is the “this generation shall not pass,” a generation being 70-80 yrs. (Psalm 90:10 says, “The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.” KJV) If we look at 1948 and the Jews return to Israel for the starting point, we should expect the 2nd Coming to be 70-80 yrs. later. I get that, but I assume it would be by the Jewish calendar. So if we multiply 70 x 360/365 we get 69.04 of OUR yrs. (end yr 2017) and doing the same with 80×360/365 we get 78.9 of our years (end yr.2027), but that’s w/o adding any of the “leap” mos., so it could still be 2018/2028. I’m NOT an advocate for date-setting; just a math nerd! I think this is the Jewish year 5777 (or is it now 5778?), so that’s also confusing. Anyway, subtracting 7 yrs.for the Trib. after the signing of AC’s peace treaty, would give us 2010 (can’t be, obviously) and 2020, respectively.

          Again, not date-setting, but looking at it as more evidence that we are in the last days. The ME is close to nuclear war, we know the weapons will burn for 7 yrs, and the AC will sign a peace treaty & break it 3.5 yrs in. I’m thinking that has to be after the 7 yrs. because the Jews can’t be burning weapons for fuel if they’ve fled to Petra. So backing up 3.5 yrs. from 2020 takes us into 2017 for the weapons burning having to start (as their new year starts in the fall w/ Rosh Hashanah.)

          Here’s the caveat: what if God’s starting point for “this generation” is 1967 when the Jews reclaimed Jerusalem? Should I assume that if the Psalm 83 or Ezek. 38-39 wars don’t break out in the ME in the next year, then the 1948 starting point is wrong? This is just meant to be a mental exercise and a break from politics, so people please don’t lambaste me. Skywatcher says, “who cares cuz we’re outta here?” and Pete and John would say there’s no Rapture (just messing w/ you guys, chill) but I really do find it all interesting! We know that nothing HAS to happen before the Rapture, but I sure wish we knew what order things would happen to tell unbelievers so they’ll believe as things come true. (Some don’t even believe Psalm 83 is a war but a curse. No wonder the denominations can’t agree on anything!) If “the wise shall understand” eim nott verry wize. haha.
          If you’d all like to go back to talking about Trump and Ted and George and Paul and Ringo, go right ahead. I’ll still love you.

          • DC

            self-correct, fall of 2016 would be the start of new yr, Rosh Hashanah. I think…I’m going to have school dreams where I’m not prepared for a test over this! 🙂

          • Skywatcher

            DC, I can see you starting to get bogged down. You’re seeing so many conflicting reports online and it’s getting to you. I know it would me, too. You’re right…this is the year 5777.

            When Christ was saying, “This generation shall not pass away…”, we have to take it in context. He’s telling His disciples in the preceding verse (Mt. 24: 32-34) that the generation that is alive to see Israel be born again as a nation in her land, will NOT all die before He returns for us. As you know, we must keep Scripture in context.

            Christ was NOT talking about the generation of His disciples’ day. He was looking ahead into time and telling them that Israel would one day be a nation that would influence and affect the whole world. Well, she certainly has done that and is still doing it! If she dares to look sideways, the rest of the world sits on the edge of their seat!

            There are still many people who were alive when she was reborn as a nation on May 14, 1948. Not all of these people will “pass away” before He comes again. That is the literal and quite plausible rendering of that passage. The Six Day war of 1967 fits quite snugly into that picture, and I (and many other strong Conservative preachers) believe the timing of the Rapture can be “dated” from the time that Israel regained possession of Jerusalem. We just won’t know the day or the hour!

            DC, there IS an order to all this, but as I said already, there are too many experts and not enough scholars. Therefore, it quickly becomes confusing…very confusing! Email me. and I’ll see if I can’t get a credible timeline to you. 🙂

          • Pete

            Skywatcher, //When Christ was saying, “This generation shall not pass away…”, we have to take it in context. He’s telling His disciples in the preceding verse (Mt. 24: 32-34) that the generation that is alive to see Israel be born again as a nation in her land, will NOT all die before He returns for us. As you know, we must keep Scripture in context.//

            1948 isn’t the context. The context going back into Matthew 23 is apostate Israel, the end of the age and the destruction of the TEMPLE which was standing literally right in front of them when Jesus spoke.

            Jesus says nothing about the nation of Israel being born again in her land. You are entirely deriving this from the fig tree reference that Jesus used. He just meant that the signs of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the display oj Jesus as King would be as obvious as spring coming. That’s why in Luke He also references “all the trees.” What are “all the trees”?

            //Christ was NOT talking about the generation of His disciples’ day.//

            The only reason you futurists say this, is you claim that the things Jesus talks about in Matthew 24 didn’t come to pass within the generation to whom He was speaking. Therefore, He must not have meant what He said when He referred to “this generation”. That’s absolutely backwards. If Jesus had a far-future generation in mind, He would have said “that generation.” This is plain as the nose on your face. You guys just hate to admit that. Since you don’t understand some of the more difficult language, rather than trying to define the difficult passages you instead change “the plain sense” of the words. This was one of the main things that led me personally to re-examine the whole teaching. WHY are we changing plain language???? I thought your mantra was “if the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense”? In every sense, THIS MEANS THIS. NOT THAT.

            Can you please show me where Jesus clearly tells His disciples “OK, now I am switching gears. I was talking about the temple you see standing in front of you being destroyed (which it was, in this generation). But now I am time-shifting into the far-future and I am discussing a newly built temple, a different generation of Jews, and a whole other time period.” No! He never did that! He never said a temple would be rebuilt. Why must you torture His plain words!

            The more time passes since 1948, the more people are going to start to leave the dispie position. I see already that people like you are starting to use 1967 as The Date. It isn’t going to work. You have already been using 1948 for so many years and making so many firm declarations about it, to change now is just not totally honest.

          • DC

            Pete, Skywatcher already talked about dual prophecies so I won’t reiterate that. I will, however, remind you that in Matt.24 the disciples were asking about 1)when would these things be; 2)what would be the sign of His coming; and 3) when would the end of the world be. We get the wars & rumors of war, pestilences, earthquakes, false Christs & false prophets. All that couldn’t have happened by 70 A.D. I don’t believe the Abomination of Desolation happened when the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple, either, but will be the AC in the 3rd temple, which is also talked about. Next, He talks about the sign of the Son of man in heaven, the angels and the trumpet, gathering the elect, etc. When did this happen in your view? Next,the fig tree, which is a symbol for Israel, and immediately says that “This generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled.” (v.34)Then he talks about Noah who was taken to safety before the destruction of the flood and “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (v.39) Then, he talks about 2 in the field and one taken (v.40), 2 women grinding at the mill and one taken (v.41). When did any of that happen in your scenario? The whole chapter is about the Lord’s coming again, and you have to take it all together in context.

            In researching this, I did come up with some of your arguments when googling, and now know where you got the word “futurists.” There’s a lot of info out there, and you seem deeply convinced of your position. There are many pastors who believe as you do, but I will continue to believe in the pre-
            Trib Rapture of the Church.I really don’t want to go in circles with you; I respect your right to be wrong haha. However, even if all these things already happened (which many have not), there’s nothing to say it won’t happen again. Why else is there so much conflict over Israel and Jerusalem? Do you believe there is an Anti-Christ coming and that he will stand in the temple and declare himself to be god? You said you don’t believe in the Rapture or Tribulation, but I can’t remember what you said about the AC. I won’t be here to recognize him; hope you aren’t either.

            One thing I will say, is your tone has been kinder and less mocking. I have no problem having a polite discourse with someone on eschatological issues. I hate mocking, superior attitudes. Thank you for being courteous to Sky & me, even though we disagree, and God bless you.

          • Ron

            DC you darn math nerd you!!!! So am I and You Busted me Brother ( in a very good way! ) Here I am talking about 360 day years in Revelation and forgetting about it when applied to this!!!

            You did make my day because you just shortened the time frame and there is no doubt that year was also based on 360 day years.

            Look at Ezekial carefully all the people are involved in cleansing God’s land of the Dead for 7 months to wit
            Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

            then after that they will do this for burying the dead>>>>

            Ezekiel 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

            but look at what is said here ( remember nothing is seen that does the destruction to these armies and you can bet because it is and will be God’s battle that no motorized weaponry of the Jews of any kind will be working so God gets all the glory, He will likely disable it all, maybe even their own firearms, remember Gideon )

            Ezekiel 39:9-10 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, AND THEY SHALL BURN THEM WITH FIRE SEVEN YEARS: So that THEY SHALL TAKE NO WOOD out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they SHALL BURN THE WEAPONS WITH FIRE: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

            Just like the Battle this weapon burning will be supernatural too I believe on just the way the Scripture is

            written, they will go out and just set them on fire and they will burn for the FULL 7 Years.

            This much is known that Christ will Return on the Feast of Trumpets on 1 of the 2 days at the end of the 7 Years the Trib will have started 2520 days prior to this which year is sometime before by 2027 the latest return ( Your corrected version ).
            The weapon burning will be light and forget it and God when He restores the Earth after the Trib will not be allowing weapons burning on His Chosen land after He returns, you and I both know our Lord isn’t going to make His Chosen people garbage men at this time.
            He will be rejoicing in the presence of His Chosen People The Jews who have finally come Home To Him never to look back.
            Ezekial is set up right now. The Hooks in Russia’s Jaw I believe is the hopes of destroying Israel and taking her massive gas and oil fields and the Rapture is what will have them turn back because of the world will be in Chaos and Russia will no longer be restrained in trying to attempt this. Psalms 83 I don’t know on that but it may come because of all the tunnels.
            And go to you tube and view the destruction of Damascus as it stands right now it’s completely destroyed every building face has been blown off by Russian Tanks
            look at this video….

            God Bless You DC!

          • Dc

            Thanks for your response,Ron. I’ll watch the video later, I promise. I spent too much time on here today, but I’ll be gone tomorrow and didn’t want anyone to think I was ignoring them. If I were talking out loud I’d be hoarse (not for the first time 🙂 )

            I sure like how people take the time to try to explain things back and forth with each other, even when we disagree, like with Pete. We’re all on the same journey and are learning. Some just lash out with anger and hate, which just makes people want to give up. At least we can have a civil discussion. God bless you too, Ron.

          • Pete

            DC, you wrote “We get the wars & rumors of war, pestilences, earthquakes, false Christs & false prophets. All that couldn’t have happened by 70 A.D.” I disagree. In fact much of these things are right in scripture, including the gospel being preached in all the world.

            The book of Acts lists a number of false Messiahs, in particular Simon (Acts 8:9-11). Secular historians also record several cases of false Messiahs arising after Jesus rose and ascended. I can send these if you wish. Of course there are always false Christs, even in our day.

            Wars were plentiful during that time. Check out the ancient writing of The Annals of Tacitus, covering AD 14-AD 68, which describes “disturbances in Germany,” “commotions in Africa”, “commotions in Thrace,” “insurrections in Gaul”, “intrigues among the Parthians”, “the war in Britain” and “the war in Armenia.” Anyway, Jesus merely told the disciples that these wars and rumours would occur but that DID NOT mean the end was near (Luke 21:9).

            Famine too was rearing its head in the days of Acts, so much so that the disciples sent aid to one another. Acts 11:27-29 says “And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea…” The securlar writer Tacitus again mentions famine happening in the city of Rome in 51 AD.

            Earthquakes were plentiful in those days, according to secular historians and the Bible. Acts 16:26 records one of these as “great”. Josephus the historian talks about great earthquakes as well. Again I can source these if you really want to see the proof.

            Signs in heaven – I don’t know a ton about this, but Halley’s comet DID appear in 66AD right before Nero committed suicide, and many historians believe he thought it was an omen because a comet had just appeared in 60AD over the local sky and freaked people out.

            Increased lawlessness, falling away, persecution – just read Acts and the Epistles! This is all over the New Testament. The early Christians were subject to horrific suffering, especially Jews who converted. They were often kicked out of their families and forced into other parts of the world (Read 1 Peter). The Greek / Gentile world at the time was legendary in their immorality. Greeks at the time did not even have a word for “homosexual”. It was so common and ordinary it did not have a special name. Again, this is all over the history books and all over the Bible itself.

            Jesus told His disciples “YOU will be persecuted.” In fact, in Luke 21 Jesus describes earthquakes, and famines and the like…then He says “Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.” BEFORE ALL THESE??? Can someone tell me, if these earthquakes and wars are signs of The End that is surely coming, when did Jews persecute Christians and take deliver them up to the synagogues???

            What does Luke 21 say? What does it mean?

            Interesting, huh?

          • Skywatcher

            DC, I owe you, Char, and everybody a HUGE apology! I was partially incorrect about the current year on the Israeli calendar, believing we are now in the year 5777.

            I was just talking with a correspondent in Israel, and she informs me it is currently the year 5776 in Israel, and NOT yet “5777” as I said yesterday. It will be 5777 on October 3 of THIS YEAR! I’m very sorry about this! I went by the date I had written on one of my calendars, forgetting it wouldn’t be effective until this coming October. My partial bad!

            So, there may be a connection with 2017 and 5777 and the Rapture after all! This gives us more time to win our families and other loved ones to Jesus!

            Please accept my humble apology, one and all!

          • Pete

            DC…I hear you about the replies. This system is pretty bad. Once you get to 3 levels of reply, the reply link disappears from the thread. So people get lost on the page. Hopefully you find my response here because I think it’s important. You wrote:

            “I just don’t happen to believe it b/c the disciples asked about the end of the world, which is still here.”

            The disciples did not ask about the end of Planet Earth. The word for “world” there is aiōn, which means “age”. The Jews had no concept of Planet Earth coming to an end, but they had been taught all their lives that Messiah would someday come, defeat their enemies and set up His everlasting kingdom and begin a new age. When Jesus said that the Temple itself would be destroyed, and when He declared the house of the Jews desolate (Mat 23:38), they naturally were wondering… “Is this IT? Will Jesus finally step forward as King and begin the new age?”

            The age in question is the Old Covenant, and all through the New Testament we see that these people were absolutely sure that the age was coming to an end. There are a lot of verses that prove this, but one in particular is 1 Cor 10:11, which reads “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

            It says here that the people of Paul’s day, and Paul himself, were those upon whom the ends of the aiōn are come. This was 1950 years ago. Does this verse not mean what it sounds like? Did the Corinthians read this letter from Paul and say “Naw. That’s for some generation 1000s of years from now.”

            Let me know what you think.

          • Ron

            This is the surest sign of the end DC

            Apostasy in the Christian church
            by Matt Slick

            “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [Jesus’ return] will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,” (2 Thess. 2:3, NASB).

            Apostasy means to fall away from the truth. Therefore, an apostate is someone who has once believed and then rejected the truth of God. Apostasy is a rebellion against God because it is a rebellion against truth. In the Old Testament, God warned the Jewish people about their idolatry and their lack of trust in Him. In the New Testament, the epistles warn us about not falling away from the truth. Apostasy is a very real and dangerous threat.

            The verse at the top of the page tells us that there will be an apostasy that is associated with the appearance of the Antichrist. Most Christians are looking for the arrival of the Antichrist, but very few are looking for “the apostasy” that must come first. The arrival of the Antichrist cannot occur until sufficient apostasy has happened in the world. The Antichrist, who is the ultimate of liars, cannot abide in a world where the truth of God’s Word is taught. This is why the Bible says that the apostasy will come first and then the Antichrist will be revealed.

            Therefore, we must, as Christians, ask this question, “Is there an apostasy occurring in the Christian church today?” Some would say no and others yes. But, as we look for the arrival of the Antichrist, should we not also be looking for the arrival of apostasy? And where else should we first look but in our own house for the Bible tells us that judgment will begin in the house of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17).

            The full article can be read here….

            https://carm.org/apostasy-christian-church

            We are in almost full blown apostasy in the churches, until Christ Bride Departs in The Rapture there still

            is light in the world. Once we go darkness will descend and evil will be unrestrained, Woe to the Inhabitors of

            the Earth.

          • DC

            Pete, yes I found you; hope this posts under your last response. I hear what you’re saying but there has to be an end to the world as we know it (“and I feel fine;” c’mon everyone, sing along with R.E.M…). The Jews will look upon Him who they pierced, accept Him, and He will reign for 1000 years. You can’t say that has already happened. I wish there were one definitive thing I could say to convince you of a pre-trib rapture and 7 years of hell on earth, as you said. Ron & Sky are much better versed in all this and they can’t, so I’m just going to lovingly admit that some of these things happened but will happen again. God wins, so we can take comfort in that. 🙂

            I don’t know why the bible couldn’t be more clear to us who so badly want to study it and understand it. It reminds me of a conversation I had recently with Skywatcher on Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS.) Denominations span a whole gamut on where they stand on that one. I said yesterday that the SDA has a Revelation study going on across the country next week. I did go to the website but it just told the questions they are going to answer. I know this church to be a cult, per the article Geoff wrote, plus other things I’ve learned, but they are as strong in their beliefs as we are. “Bob” makes an interpretation and a whole movement follows. Then “Tom” says, no they’re all wrong and people follow his interpretation. Each denomination thinks they are the true church with all the answers. I’ve given a truckload of testimony on the RCC and they are just as adamant that they are right. (My mom swears to this day that the RCC started with Peter as the 1st pope b/c that was drilled into them as kids. I brought up Peter’s being married and asked why priests must be celibate and got no answer.) I think the devil tries to divide believers (and will use all the division to create the AC’s religion that everyone will HAVE to agree on),but, again, why didn’t God and Jesus make it clearer? “The wise shall understand.” O-kaaay. Guess I’m not too wise, though I do try.

            Then there’s the whole Daniel sealing up the rest of the prophecy until the time of the end, so we must still be waiting to learn something else. I do like all the archaeological findings the last few years–seems like a new one each week–giving evidence that these people did live. The preparations for then 3rd temple are also well underway, so things are heating up. It really is an exciting time in which to be living!

            Thanks for responding.

          • Pete

            Dee I appreciate your kind spirit, I can learn a lot from you 🙂

            I hope it’s ok if I answer you line by line, I know this may come across as picking things apart but it’s how I think. Forgive me for doing it this way. You need to know that I was raised dispensational, pre-trib, and believed that for 35 years. It was only about 5 years ago that I began to seriously dig into the whole thing. What has made me the most uncomfortable about all of it is the lack of actual Biblical support.

            I know people like to say the Bible teaches this stuff, but so many of the key components that hold the system together are just NOT there, explicitly, in the Bible. And we are forced to change the original meaning of text all the time.

            Cases in point….

            //Then there’s the whole Daniel sealing up the rest of the prophecy until the time of the end, so we must still be waiting to learn something else.//

            The end of what? It doesn’t say the end of the entire planet. It’s the end of that age. And interestingly, Revelation 22:10 says: “And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.” Dee, this was told TO John, who actually lived there in the 1st century. JOHN was told the time is at hand. Do you think that was completely meaningless to John? Why? What right do we have to think so? If God says to a person “the time is at hand, don’t seal up this prophecy” how can that not mean just what it says? Did John seal up the prophecy? NO…it’s the book we are reading! Rev 22:10 “bookends” Daniel.

            //Next, He talks about the sign of the Son of man in heaven//

            This is the symbolic judgment of Jesus Christ as king, at the right hand of God. “Coming with the clouds of heaven” is a direct phrase found in Daniel 7:13 which describes the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven TO the throne of God. Where is God’s throne? On earth beneath the vapor clouds? No, it’s in heaven. The verses describe Jesus ASCENDING to His rightful place, not DESCENDING to earth. And this happened when He rose and sat at the right hand. It was obvious to all of those “who pierced Him” the day He poured out His wrath on apostate Israel.

            //the angels and the trumpet, gathering the elect, etc. When did this happen in your view?//

            God gathered in as many of the believers of Israel and Gentiles in the city of Jerusalem before He destroyed it. Many were saved, 1.1 million were not. He held off judgment as long as He could. That’s what 2 Peter 3:9 is talking about.

            //Next, the fig tree, which is a symbol for Israel//

            No, the Bible never says the fig tree is symbolic of Israel. Or of anything in fact. Jesus is simply using a metaphor of a common thing – the coming of Spring. Luke 21 says Jesus also placed “all the trees” into this same parable. If the fig tree is Israel in 1948, then what are “all the trees”?

            //”This generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled.” (v.34)//
            Yes. The plain wording here is that those people He said this to would see these things fulfilled. This makes no sense in any other context.

            //Then he talks about Noah who was taken to safety before the destruction of the flood//

            No He never talks about this.

            //and “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (v.39)//

            He compares the time of Noah only to the COMING of the son of man. That is, the judgment poured out on Jerusalem.

            //Then, he talks about 2 in the field and one taken (v.40), 2 women grinding at the mill and one taken (v.41). When did any of that happen in your scenario?//

            70AD. One was taken in judgment, another left. Those who heeded His words were spared, the others were taken. Where? Outside of the city and buried in the garbage heap where the “eagles” would gather to feast on them (Luke 17:37). This literally happened.

            //there has to be an end to the world as we know it//

            Hmm. Not sure if you are right. The Bible doesn’t say this, it says the creation is groaning waiting to be REDEEMED (Rom 8:22-23). Yes, this world will be made new again when Jesus completes the work of putting all of His enemies under His feet and finally destroying death and hell.

            //The Jews will look upon Him who they pierced, accept Him//

            It never says this anywhere in the Bible. But John 19:37 says the looking on me whom they pierced was fulfilled already at the cross.

            //and He will reign for 1000 years. You can’t say that has already happened.//

            Jesus reigns for eternity, not for 1000 years. There is no such 1000 year kingdom of Jesus anywhere in scripture. Not even in Revelation 20.

          • DC

            Pete, I’m giving you the Native American name “Has Answer for Everything!” Don’t want to leave you out. 🙂 You have a well-thought out argument, but I am convinced in what I said. I think I’m out of my league with you–raised RCC, you know, and not as strong in the bible–so afraid of making a mistake.

            I think Kiki, Sky, & Ron do a better job, so like they do in “wrasslin,” as my dad used to call it, I’m going to tag-team. Guys? A little help for this damsel in distress….

            Like I said, people with different views have enough scripture to make them plausible, but my heart tells me what I know is true; so we’re at an impasse. Now I have to go back and reread stuff; thanks a lot. haha But I won’t change my mind. Jesus is coming! Look up! Have hope! We are not meant to suffer the Tribulation you don’t believe in but is coming anyway! Save the whales! Recycle! I’m getting slap-happy, so adios, au revoir, & e pluribus unum for now! :>)

          • kiwiwatcher

            Blessings sister DC
            You quite rightly passed off getting involved with unsound doctrine.

             “But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
            17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
            18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” 2 Timothy 2:16-18

            Just some short info while you congratulate yourself on discernment.
            Daniel’s book was sealed until the time of end as it is a key Book in unlocking various segments of Revelation – both Books in the main, are for the Jews.
            God would not ask Daniel to seal a prophetic book until the last days, and ask John in 95AD to write prophecy related to the last days if they had already passed. It is God we are speaking of…..not a disorganized man as some people attempt to show to match their own rational.

            Any mention of the Son of Man – is for the Jews. Anyone using Son of Man references to the True Church has no Spiritual concept of the Bible, as the Son of Man came originally for Israel and will return to earth again – for Israel. The True Church is not involved with the Son of Man other than accompanying Him to earth on the second time.
            Scroll up for Noah message. Anyone uses ‘the time of Noah’ as the coming of the Son of Man – can not read the Scriptures. As Jesus said – “And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of Man.” Matthew 24:39 The time of Noah began 600 years prior to the flood.

            Key verse in replying to the deceived, DC is “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE.” Matthew 24:21. Such will be the devastation – the days will have to be shortened. No one reported this happening in 70AD.
            I believe you will find a number of earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanos etc greater than any event occurring in 70AD or thereabouts.

            1.1 million people killed in the city of Jerusalem. What the….?? – DC, this is one of the classic signs of a desperately seeking person who gains their ungodly ‘ministry’ from the internet. This information is not from the Bible, but from former Jew, turned Roman exaggerator Josephus, who formed a major role in the Judean propaganda machine. Earlier, they had declared “I use the King James 100% of the time.” If only it were true. But no – he is very deceptive. Population of Jerusalem in 70AD – 60,000.

            Utter nonsense that the Scripture related to ‘one be taken and the other left’ occurred in 70AD. Only a gullible trawler of the internet could be drawn into such creative thinking.

            And you are quite right. There was no Abomination of Desolation of the Temple in 70AD, which really closes the case. But I guess the unbeliever will box on regardless.

            Have to smile slightly DC. Very few people know true history very well, and tend to trawl the internet to support ‘their gospel,’ without realizing they are being duped by the numerous copy and paste websites. Satan is very busy, and my fear this that one day, this site too, will fall foul and be ‘hacked’ to a standstill by those with a false doctrine.

            I am sure that you have several verses up your sleeve that will cope well with any intrusions into your Spiritual well-being from a person with another gospel.

             “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
            For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:11-12

            Bless you DC…..home soon

        • tiptopsaidhe

          Ron, you quote Dan 9:24…

          Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, #1) to finish the transgression, and #2) to make an end of sins, and #3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and #4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and #5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and #6) to anoint the most Holy.

          I numbered them as to what God said He would do in the 70 weeks.

          Jesus, as Messiah, fulfilled all of those things.

          “To finish the transgression,”

          This was fulfilled. (Matt 21:33-45; Matt. 23:32,35,36,38; Luke 11:47-51; 1 Thess. 2:14-16)

          “Make an end of sins,”

          This was fulfilled. (John 1:29; Matt 1:21; Acts 10:43; Hebrews 9:12-14,26; 10:9-14)

          “Make reconciliation for iniquity,”

          This was fulfilled. (Romans 5:8-11; II Cor. 5:17-21; Hebrews 2:17; Col 1:12-21)

          “Bring in everlasting righteousness,”

          This was fulfilled. (Romans 3:21-26; 4:13; 5:17,18; 9:30,31; 14:17 (Isa. 51:8) ; Hebrews 9:12; II Thess 2:16; I Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 9:9)

          “Seal up vision and prophecy,”

          This was fulfilled. (Matthew 13:14,15 (cf. Isaiah 6:9,10); 17:5; John 1:1; 12:39-41; Acts 7:37; 28:25-27; Romans 1:1-2, 3:21, 16:25-26; Ephesians 2:11-17; 3:3-6; Colossians 1:26; Hebrews 1:1-2; I Peter 1:9-11; II Peter 1:19-21)
          “blindness”(Is 8:16; 29:11; Daniel 8:26; 12:4; Matt 13:03-23; 22:29; Luke 24:44-47; John 12:37-41; Acts 3:17; 13:27; 28:23-29; Rom 9:32-33; 11:7-10,25; I Cor 1:22-23; 2:6-8; II Cor 3:14; I Pet 2:7-8; Revelation 10:4; 22:10)

          “Anoint the most holy.”

          This was fulfilled. (Luke 4:18-21; Matthew 3:15-17; John 1:32; Acts 2:32,33,38,39; 4:26,27; 10:37,38,44,45; Hebrews 9:22-24 / Not Physical Temple – Acts 7:48-49)

          If you believe that the 70th week is out in the future, then God has not appointed the Most Holy yet and you are still awaiting Messiah, just as Judaism.

          • Ron

            tiptopsaidhe
            The Jews Have only completed 69 of the 70 weeks the 70th week is in the future it is Daniel 9:27

            Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

            And that is speaking of the 7 years in Revelation and what does the AC do He sits in the Temple claiming to be God and sets up His Image in the wing of the Temple this is at the midpoint (3 1/2 years or 1260 days)

            what is there to understand.

            If you don’t understand Revelation you need to study it with God revealing it to you by His Holy Spirit, and The events of Revelation have not happened yet but will commence the moment the AC confirms the 7 year Treaty then the first seal is opened.

    • Yes, we “know for sure” that there will be a 7 year time of Jacob’s trouble. And we know for sure that there will be a Pretribulation Rapture of the Church. These things are Bible doctrine not speculation.

      • TorchbearerforJesus

        That’s right, Brother Geoffrey, you stay the course! The “baby cults” that have arrived on the scene since the 1800’s, appear to be the ones who have it most difficult to tie the Scriptures together in correct order…especially when their leaders have missed a vital beat or two, omitting the passages of doctrines pertaining to the Great Tribulation, the Rapture, etc. The blind leading the blind. Yet, they find it ever so easy to follow after false prophets! Go figure! Very sad.

      • JoHN Jones

        Let us not be so arrogant that we teach for dogma things which the scriptures do not clearly say.

        • Ron

          Who’s being arrogant the Scriptures do state it!

        • John Jones

          Ron- I do not blame you for your doctrinal perspective. But please realize that what you say the scriptures state is just your interpretation. Please respect that I currently have a slightly different take on scripture. I used to be a hard-core dispensationalist pre-trib person but thankfully I have been led more towards a Reformed perspective recently. It is quite liberating and wonderful to say the least instead of always worrying about world events and getting the jitters waiting for the rapture.

          • Ron

            2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

            Just as it took The Holy Spirit to have men write God’s Word

            One must have God’s Holy Spirit to Understand it as well

            For God’s Word is His Love Letter to His Bride

          • John Jones

            I should rephrase that as it is the perspective that YOU take. I did not say it was your PRIVATE interpretation. It is the interpretation you take though. I take a different interpretation also believed by many Christians through the centuries. Ultimately, only time will tell who is correct. And if I am wrong, I will admit it when we all get to heaven. 🙂

  • carrierwave

    One thing I can agree on, God is judging His backslidden churches and christians subdued by false religion. The root cause is the yoking up with “unbelievers” and illicit marriage of Church and State in an IRS pact with the government. Very few are listening to God’s voice to the churches. A shot has been fired across the bow as a warning of worse things to come, but few have repented because of $$$, worldly recognition, church credit, church bank accounts, tax kick-backs, leadership position, paid hirelings disguised as ‘pastors’ etc..on and on. If you are a “member” in one of these 501c3 club houses, you need to repent and GET OUT, ASAP. You are perpetuating spiritual whoredom and betrayal against the Lord Jesus and His real CHURCH. A few churches in our area are heeding the warning we have sent out. Some are forming into biblical home churches. Some churches are hiring lawyers to “unincorporate” their buildings and assets before the hammer comes down. One ‘pastor’ in our area “quit” because the “members” refused to sever the 501c3 status with Obama LGBT agenda, because they love their “tax deductions” on their “tithes”. I have to give these christians credit for at least trying to do right, even though it may be too late.

    Other ‘churches’ are planning on riding it out with CLA lawyers, but they will fail. There are some churches that are so corrupt they have closed their eyes entirely to the Word of God. One “fundamental baptist” pastor was caught taking boys to a sauna and coerced some to bathe naked in a hot-tub with him. He threatened them to keep them silent. One of the boys committed suicide, which brought the whole thing out in the open. He was never charged. Another youth pastor in a sister baptist church, was grooming teen girls. He sent one young lady cellphone pictures of his “privates” and demanded photos sent to him from the girl in return. He was caught finally but he convinced the “members” in an evening “service” that the girl had been “tempting him”. Of course he got away with it, and the family of the girl involved were not welcomed any longer to “church”. The ‘pastor’ of the same ‘church’ is taking a family to court over an inheritance issue. This so-called ‘pastor’ wormed his way to become “executor of the Will” and just before the wealthy father of the family died, this “pastor” convinced 4 women in the ‘church’ to go to this fathers’ death bed with him to witness the old man sign an “amendment to the Will”, turning over 20 acres of “estate property” to the church’. The old man stated to his daughter later, “I had no idea what I was signing.” and he died a month later and now the ‘pastor’ is threatening certain family members with a lawsuit because they are contesting the “amendment” was done under coercion, intimidation, and “duress”. This property is being perpared as a “gift” for the ‘pastor’ when he retires next year for his years of “faithful service” to the ‘church’.

    We left that baptist church 10 years ago, and it was as bad back then! I think Jesus Christ is sick and is going to “spew” these 501c3 churches out of His mouth, maybe along with some of you reading this. God’s main attention is on the ‘church’ not Donald Trump! Get it right Georffrey, Judgment begins in the “House of God”. So expect it to be coming SOON “to a church near you.”

    • Angelgirl

      How wonderful!!!! That gives me hope! If churches don’t want the government in what they do…sever that 501(c)3 or bow to government intrusion!

  • MG

    LOL! it looks that way eh? Ya know, I almost wish Trump would take the white chair. But I just don’t think that the committee of 300 ( the people that rule the world) will have him there. Trump is just playing the game like Soros, and the rest.

  • Servant

    Seems that everybody is against and / or afraid of Trump, GOP elites, Soros, Japan, China etc, I think we might just be on to something.

    With so many people eyeing Trump and attacking his credibility, it shows just how much the establishments do not want him to become president.

    For Christians…. please note there are no real Christians currently in the running for Presidency anyway. Just vote for the guy who the Holy Spirit shows you will bring about God’s sovereign will. Do not for a moment think that you need a Christian president so that God’s will can be done. That is absolutely not true at all. God is so all powerful and mighty, even mad or evil men’s works can be twisted into something good for the Lord’s Kingdom.

    • sooz22

      Yes, God can work miracles in the hearts of men. He may use Donald Trump too – in ways that will absolutely astonish us! We must not underestimate God. Pray, pray, PRAY.

      • Ron

        Amen sooz22!

  • Skywatcher

    Hey there, beloved in Christ!

    Here’s a great reason not to support Ted Cruz, for those who may be interested! Have you seen this excerpt in Mike Adams’ Naturalnews.com issue today:

    “Ted Cruz just called tens of millions of health-conscious Americans “anti-science zealots” for opposing GMOs.
    Borrowing a line right out of the Monsanto playbook, Cruz has announced he’s all-in for the biotech industry, glyphosate, GMOs and evil corporations like Monsanto.
    You can never eat enough weedkiller and genetically modified corn, Cruz now implies, and he simultaneously claims that Monsanto is feeding the world. (Yeah, just wow.)
    As a promoter of the Second Amendment, Ted Cruz apparently believes that Americans should have access to buy a gun but not to read a label. (Perhaps because he believes labels are more dangerous than guns…?)
    All this means Ted Cruz has become the Hillary Clinton of the right.”

    Here’s the link: Ted Cruz goes all in for Monsanto; insults tens of millions of health-conscious Americans by calling them ‘anti science zealots’

    http://ce-public.naturalnews.com/ct.asp?id=127E57D4BB426E38FC720EED3B7C68EA6DE72B6CFD951640BD0F4D07441A62ACA582143377ACC57B429F377A510D4038790AC64D1BF00FBA9B01064F96FE58DF&ct=4aeUs00AAABCWmgzMUFZJlNZ0ztaRwAAEp%2bAAAPqEAgCBACuZ96QIABQoABoAACKep6Mo2oBiNPI7sDyqgSBZLbrKdz%2f9YT5YBnC2v1ENnSjBxA1SEQijRK7sWzjcSUlKibi61wLuSKcKEhpna0jgA%3d%3d

    Enjoy!

  • peggy

    I have heard the Rothschilds and Rockefellas will stop Trump from winning, most likely will rig the system

    • Skywatcher

      Peggy, they might “rig the system” as you say, but this time, there is a man who has much to gain by winning, and he has much money to launch an independent investigation if such does happen!

    • Ron

      1 Samuel 2:6-10 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’S, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

      God says who will be in charge in any country at any time and just because the elites appear to have gotten someone in office….

      It was God who gave the Okay, without it not even the elites can put a man in charge of any country without God’s Say So!

  • Skywatcher

    Geoffrey and all, did you happen to see the article that Mike Adams wrote in naturalnews.com today, re: Ted Cruz? Here’s an excerpt from his introduction!

    Maybe Geoffrey, you can put the link up for the WORLD to see! I find it quite unconscionable that a truly born again Christian would be in favor of a huge corporation whose goal is to “thin out the herd”…us!

    Ted Cruz goes all in for Monsanto; insults tens of millions of health-conscious Americans by calling them ‘anti science zealots’
    Naturalnews.com/053315_Ted_Cruz_Mon…
    U.S. presidential candidate and Texas senator Ted Cruz went in all for Monsanto on the campaign trail in Iowa, parroting Monsanto’s propaganda by proclaiming that GMOs are feeding the world while insulting health-conscious consumers by equating support of GMO labeling with “anti-science…

    • I have always said that Ted Cruz is nothing but a “christian” phoney, not to be trusted.

      • Tracy

        @Geoffrey,
        I agree, for some reason, I can see right thru Ted Cruz. I don’t even understand it myself.

        • Ron

          Tracy to me it seems like that is how the NWO operates they get one just like themselves

          and try to sell them to the public as a new savior with all the answers.

          But that is the difference with Trump, Trump has never been a politician and he is not a narcissist like 90%

          or more of the regular politicians are. This is why they are fighting so hard to remove him.

          The Truth is, if Trump is God’s man for President of The United States then the New World Order Elites

          are dumber than the Pharisees were at least they knew when to quit…..

          Acts 5:35-39 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel,
          take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
          For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

          After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

          And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone:

          for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

          But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

          The same can be said of Trump if he is chosen by God and they are fighting it, and maybe they know it and think they can “up one” on God

          Only a fool thinks they can beat God at anything. God Bless You!

      • Ron

        Brother Geoffrey even being separated from you physically,

        The Spirit does bear witness that you are a Brother in Christ and when I think of Ted Cruz there is no witness,

        but even though Trump isn’t saved himself I still feel very led of The Lord to vote for Trump.

        And Just like Nebachadrezzer Trump too may become saved as a result of becoming a world power.

        I pray everyone gets saved, but if Trump wins the Election I just pray the Lord will see him saved early on in office

        it would truly be a huge Blessing to finally have a Born Again President in this century. IMVHO

        I believe all you have written applies to him.

        The first 4 seals deal with a massive war and it’s effects and that is death by war, by famine, by plague and all the wild animals that will proliferate and kill and eat man as well.

        Our war machine is not gone, it is just in Moth Balls and Trump may be the one God uses to thump the world in this.

        Wow we really live in exciting times and this year will prove very very exciting, especially with the upcoming Election.

        God Bless You Geoffrey for all of your articles YBIC Ron

        • Skywatcher

          Hi there, Brother Ron! I had to scroll waaaaaayyyyy up to find a reply button, so I could reply directly to you! There’s something going on in the spirit world around us here today! I was just lovingly corrected for posting what I thought was a VERY SERIOUS bit of information which would get a lot of money for a number of people.

          Because I’m Canadian, and it was concerning the American SS, I didn’t read it all. It turned out to be hoax! I guess, seeing as I too make mistakes that require forgiveness, I too, can extend forgiveness to you! 🙂

          You said, “Skywatcher First off let me state this I apologize and have a very short attention span as well as fatigue very badly these days.”

          I too, share in the same human weakness! Let’s forgive the world right now, and be done with it! God bless you! 🙂

          • DC

            I hear your complaint about the buttons, and I’m piggy-backing on you here b/c I’m too lazy to find the beginning of the thread we had re: the 70th week. For some reason I’m also not getting all comments from all stories in my email, so I’m lost in space here. I was gone for a day and feel like I missed a week! You all have been busy bees (but you’re A’s in my book.) Can we get fired up or what?

            No problem on the SS. I said I wasn’t old enough (which is kinda nice b/c not many situations where I can say that!) Also, when you go to leave the page it asks if you’re SURE you want to leave, which is usually a sign that someone wants money from us. My husband said you can get the info for free on other places on the internet.

            As for the year 5777, that’s ok too. Seven is an important number to God, so we’ll just have to wait and see. If He gives us more time to spread the Gospel to the lost, that’s ok too. Like I said, I wasn’t date-setting, just ball-parking. I will, however, be looking up until my neck is stiff on the feast dates!

            And Pete, I did read your response, but I’m replying to all posts down here. Like I said, I’ve seen all this argument from people who believe everything happened by 70 A.D.; I just don’t happen to believe it b/c the disciples asked about the end of the world, which is still here. Perhaps we can agree that this is another dual prophecy? What’s kind of coincidental is that the same day we started this thread I got a flyer from the SDA church in town about an upcoming series they are doing on revelation. They have a speaker coming and gave a web address. One night is supposed to be “History’s Greatest Religious Cover-up” and I thought, there are so many, what could it be? Not that I’d go. The point is that there are so many interpretations out there and people can use scripture to support their view, as we all are doing. We have to read the bible and ask for discernment while doing so.Have you noticed how many books and movies have come out in the last few years on the topic? People feel like SOMETHING is going to happen; guess we’ll just have to wait and see what it is and believe on the Lord to help us through. I’m going to keep looking for the Blessed Hope, though, and hope that you, Pete, are pleasantly surprised. Yes, there was tribulation in the time of the disciples; all but John were martyred, but considering that there has been more persecution of Christians in this new century only in its 16th year than the past 19 centuries combined, tells me that Jesus was talking about our time. Certainly there have always been persecution and wars, but I believe the end times persecution and tribulation is going to make that look like a schoolyard fistfight. I don’t disparage you for your position; I just believe that the Church is Jesus’ bride, He went to prepare a Home for her (us), and He’s coming back to get her/us. The Great Tribulation is to convince the lost and the Jews, and since the Church already knows Him, there’s no reason for them to go through it. Also, your position would’ve meant the Holy Spirit/Restrainer has already been taken out in order for the worst evil to be unleashed, and I think that is still yet to be. Jesus said we’d see Him come down the same way He went out. That has to be the Rapture b/c when it’s His 2nd Coming He’s going to stand on the Mt. of Olives & split it in two–2 different things.

            If I could reply directly below you, I’d do a better job of defending myself, point by point. Sorry about that. KY tried to get something done about the button problem, but it’s still happening from time to time, usually on a well-commented upon post; new ones don’t give me as much trouble.
            Peace to you and to all. I’m enjoying this and learning a lot.

          • DC

            See, Sky got a “leave a reply” under his name and I didn’t. I’m gonna get a complex! 🙂

          • Ron

            Skywatcher please tell me you read my response to what you said about my write up on virgins and being asleep.

            Did you read my correction I made??????? My response is 2 down from your

            16 March 2016 at 5:37 pm Entry

            Mine is time stamped and dated 16 March 2016 at 8:27 pm Under the Name “Ron” of course but please get back to me on this

          • Ron

            Dude You and DC are True Brothers and I love you both, as well as my other Brothers and Sisters here.

            And I really love the Canadian People because they are way more friendly, loving, and kinder than most of the fellow

            Americans I have met. Just MHO

            We will meet on the clouds soon!

          • DC

            Ron, I watched the video as promised. Had I know it was only 2 min. long I would’ve watched last nite. I get so many that are long, I put it on the back burner. It was like a ghost town. Sad yet prophetic. Thanks for sharing.

  • ROSSANO WAGNER

    “{And} we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
    1 John 5:19

  • LA

    Exciting times!! Come Lord Jesus… im sooo ready! Not a day goes by that I dont say that!! Every day is one day closer!!! Ahhhhhh exciting!!!!

    • sooz22

      Whatta’ trip, huh? Let’s roll . .

  • LAWRENCEOFLORAIN

    Like, Like, Like, Like, Like! The Lord is going to Judge the nations with Righteous Judgement!

    • Pete

      LAWRENCEOFLORAIN will you still “Like, Like, Like, Like, Like” if you fall under that judgment? Something tells me you only get tingly with excitement when it involves somebody else getting smacked by God.

      • TheGreatTroy

        Pete,

        I guess LAWRENCEOFLORAIN isn’t going to respond to you, I wonder why ?

        • DC

          Ah, maybe he logged off? Maybe he had to go to work? Maybe you and Pete need to cut people some slack and need to worry more about being judged yourselves? The Lord WILL judge those who reject Him and come against His people. That’s all Lawrence was saying. You just like to stir up trouble. Better to side with the bully than be bullied by him, eh?

          • Pete

            Hi DC! No, I really am not afraid of judgment, my sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus. However, I do not gleefully await the judging of others either. If it wasn’t for the grace of God, I would be right there with them. We are supposed to have compassion and love for the lost. There’s nothing that says our attitude should be “Yay! I can’t wait until the sinners get what’s coming to them!” As much as this is appealing to the flesh, I don’t think we should be thinking that way. Not that I am perfect … I often fall into that thinking too. Doesn’t make it right.

          • DC

            I think Lawrence is saying that God will have the final say on evil nations, not rejoicing in judgment of the individual unbeliever. At least that was how I interpreted his comment. Wanting judgment for Iran’s leaders, for example, who want to wipe Israel off the map (and us) isn’t the same as their people who have no choice in Islam but to follow or die. My son has a Muslim friend and I pray for his and his family’s salvation every day. I have no problem, though, with God destroying those who’d behead Christians and rape their women and children. Some people are beyond redemption–already lost.

          • Pete

            DC, that isn’t for us to judge. We should pray for those Islamic leaders. We can’t do anything better than that anyway. Those leaders are individuals as well. Did you know that Muslims are coming to Christ in record numbers today? Personally I think that as hideous as their behavior is, it is waking up the average Muslim. They are seeing what the end result is of their teaching….death. We need to be there, as Christians, when and if the Lord leads one of them to our door. How do you and I know, for example, that we are at the beginning of a 100 year outpouring of God’s grace upon the Islamic world where millions of them come to Christ? But the dispensationalist pre-trib viewpoint NEVER SAYS THAT. It’s only the constant drumbeat of “well, here we go, end of the world is coming. Again.” And then we support things like war, and killing machines, and going after the people that kill innocents and meanwhile WE kill innocents. The Gospel is more powerful than all of that!

            I think you were the one that told me a couple months ago that you talk to a Muslim family all the time. God can and will bless that!

          • Ron

            DC Pete’s doctrine is so false and Reprobate do not listen to anything he says

            His 18 March 2016 at 3:53 pm Entry by Pete is wrong!

            Israel is the Fig Tree. When He came to Israel the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and Lawyers all knew based on the book of Daniel when the Messiah was supposed to arrive.

            Jesus came expecting fruit from them ( The fruit would be them recognizing Him as Messiah ) and what did Jesus Get

            A group of Religious leaders who trusted so much in their own righteousness and were heady and high minded and

            lastly Jealous because Jesus had all the Powers and they had none. This is why the fig tree gets cursed

            Matthew 21:18-20 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

            Just as the religous leaders produced no fruit for Him neither did the fig tree because it represented Israel.

            There will be a 1,000 year reign with Christ as King on Earth, then Satan will be loosed at the end of that for a little season and convinces many to attack New Jeruselum and then Satan is cast into The Lake of Fire and then
            The Judgment followed by New Heavens and Earth.

            seeing How Pete said ** There is no such 1000 year kingdom of Jesus anywhere in scripture.** **Not even in Revelation 20.*

            Proof there is a Millenium Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

            As a matter of fact it mentions 1,000 years in Revelation 20 in verses 2,3,4,5,6,7

            Something tells me Pete must Be a JW or some other cult

            Keep in mind DC

            Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

            I will not entertain nor answer any of this person’s doctrine any more than what I have and if I were you take no

            Scriptural advice from him. IMVHO

            God Bless You DC

            Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

          • Ron

            DC My Sister may I recommend 2 Extremely Excellent Websites

            for Regular doctrine of the Bible and The Rapture itself.

            Rapture Ready at……

            http://www.raptureready.com/

            Rapture Forums at…..

            http://www.raptureforums.com/

            Happy Reading God Bless You! Ronda ROFL! Love it. ha ha

      • Skywatcher

        Pete, you said, ” Pete
        19 March 2016 at 1:02 pm

        “What????? Maybe the Lord is putting Muslims in every country so that they will come into contact with Christians and hear the Gospel. The Lord is about SAVING people, not destroying them.”

        I would HAVE TO strongly disagree with you on that one. If that was truly the case, He’d leave them in their own countries where Bible-believing Christians who willingly share the gospel with them are being murdered each day! They are coming here to sow seeds of Islam and to conquer the world for Islam; their clerics admit it.

        You said, “The twisted dispie mentality likes death and destruction, which is another reason to expose it’s seedy underbelly to the light of the truth.”

        Wow! Those are really nasty and hateful words, Pete. I don’t see any love of Jesus emanating from them. Am I missing something in the transmission? Am I reading them out of context? I would find it hard to be your friend if you were going to beat me up like that, or to paint me with such acidic paint.

        • Pete

          Skywatcher, I am a little confused by your response. You wrote

          //I would HAVE TO strongly disagree with you on that one.//

          Which part? That the Lord is about saving people not destroying them? Or are you in fact agreeing that God might be dispersing Muslims around the world, so He can kill 1/4 of them?

          //If that was truly the case, He’d leave them in their own countries where Bible-believing Christians who willingly share the gospel with them are being murdered each day!//

          Yes praise the Lord there are those Christians, but it could also be that God is bringing them into safer places like the USA where there are 10 times as many Christians and far more freedom to hear the Gospel. I mean, I don’t know this for sure but why could that not be the case?

          //They are coming here to sow seeds of Islam and to conquer the world for Islam; their clerics admit it.//

          Sure, some of them are but I really wasn’t addressing why THEY are coming, I was addressing why GOD might be moving them here. You know, God is actually a lot more powerful than these people, I hope you remember that.

          //Wow! Those are really nasty and hateful words, Pete. I don’t see any love of Jesus emanating from them. //

          Yes, there is no love of Jesus in my heart for the modern dispensational doctrine. I don’t hate the people who believe it, I love them. That’s why I want this disease-ridden heresy to go away. Strong words but I don’t see anyone caring when people show the same contempt for things like Roman Catholicism or SDA or other “heresies.” Modern dispensationlism is downright heresy.

          //I would find it hard to be your friend if you were going to beat me up like that//

          I am beating up the doctrine, not a person. Many dispies are my local brothers and sisters….also my parents and siblings, inlaws…this is not a hateful comment against any PERSON. It’s against a DOCTRINE. Attack the ideas, not the people, that’s my philosophy. And any doctrine that leads people to say that God is coordinating a worldwide dispersion of Muslims so that they are evenly spread around the world, because He is planning on killing 1/4 of the population soon….well, that’s just bone-chilling. What a sick, twisted thought.

          • Skywatcher

            Sorry about the confusion, Pete. Let me clarify. God is more powerful than these people or any other, but He’s bringing over the Muslims to fulfill Rev. 20: 4. There is no other people on the planet who does beheadings like the Muslims do. He’s bringing them here to sift the wheat from the chaff. Oh yes, a few might be saved in the crossfire, but that’s definitely not the real reason they’re coming. They’re coming to bring on a religious Jihadi and a biological Jihadi, conquering by sheer numbers and votes.

            If you listen to the Muslim clerics, they passionately hate Americans and all others who do not subscribe to Islam. They tell you right out straight that their agenda is to conquer the world, and they also say that there “is no such thing as a good Muslim! All Muslims are for Jihad or they ARE NOT Muslims at all.” That was a quote from one of the chief clerics in the USA. Forgive me, but I forget his name; to me, they all sound alike.

            You said, “Yes praise the Lord there are those Christians, but it could also be that God is bringing them into safer places like the USA where there are 10 times as many Christians and far more freedom to hear the Gospel. I mean, I don’t know this for sure but why could that not be the case?”

            Syria would be a safe place for them to STAY if they had really wanted to stay home and fight, but what’s happening there is a clever feat/smokescreen/excuse for them to relocate, planting their spawn of Islam. People around the world are being duped by clever propaganda campaigns, swallowing it hook, line, sinker, and pole…to their own detriment!

            My province of Nova Scotia has headlines in the provincial newspaper on a daily basis, stating we need to prop up our population numbers with Syrian refugees. That’s a farce, and nothing but! These people do NOT bring any jobs with them! The few that aren’t warriors won’t work, but go on the public purse. If we were really concerned about numbers, we should’ve immediately ceased abortions…25 years ago! Strategists and economists saw this coming, but were part of the program. They were gagged to keep their mouths shut so this act of treason would produce the necessary chaos to bring about order…the New World Order…of the Antichrist.

            You said, “And any doctrine that leads people to say that God is coordinating a worldwide dispersion of Muslims so that they are evenly spread around the world, because He is planning on killing 1/4 of the population soon….well, that’s just bone-chilling. What a sick, twisted thought.”

            That may sound “bone-chilling”, “sick” and “twisted”, but it’s not the first time that God has allowed such things to happen! Throughout Israel’s early history, before going to battle, God told the elders and the people how they were to treat the prisoners of war. It varied sometimes, but nonetheless, if you were on the receiving end of the sword, or a news journalist watching on and reporting, you’d find God’s ways back then to be “bone-chilling”, “sick” and “twisted”. I know I surely would, but it accomplished God’s purposes, just as what is happening today, will accomplish God’s purposes in a few more months here.

            My solution to the problem is that N. Americans should now move to Syria…while we still have our heads and can! For some of you, who may need a little clarification, that is NOT “racist” because this is a Satanically-induced movement. And, there is only one race, the human race, Acts. 17: 26. That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it! 🙂

          • Pete

            OK Skywatcher,

            //I have read your posts very carefully, and I’m in agreement! How come you cannot recognize when people are actually in agreement with you?//

            Er…because you have never said you agree?

            //As a pre-trib, imminent rapture believer and a watcher, I have NEVER subscribed to the “mentality” or position that God’s priority is the “killing off of all Muslims”! //

            Then why did you respond this way to my last post: //That may sound “bone-chilling”, “sick” and “twisted”, but it’s not the first time that God has allowed such things to happen!//

            There….just 2 reasons I keep thinking you are on the opposing side, please clarify.

          • Pete

            Skywatcher says I like to argue. Meanwhile he spends a lot of time arguing with me, keeps saying he will stop talking to me and shake off the dust etc…yet keeps coming back. And a suppose THIS little comment isn’t designed to sow seeds of contention:

            //You said, “By the way, I have been removed from Facebook dispie discussion groups just for saying that God loves Muslims too.” I disagree with that. If you’ve shown the kind of unrighteous tenacity and in your face attitude in those forums as you have here, to those of us who believe a bit differently than you do//

            A “peacemaker” doesn’t say stuff like this. “I disagree with that.” LOL. You disagree with a conversation that you never witnessed??? Right Sky. I’m just an evil guy, that’s why I get kicked off Facebook groups. Obviously.

            //I wouldn’t wonder why they have done this.//

            I don’t wonder either. I know exactly why they did it….they hate Palestinians and they hate Muslims. And Iranians, Iraq…basically 100s of millions of people who don’t call themselves Jews. They would be happy to see our country nuke them all. I have records of people posting this to me. And calling me a “coward” for not going along with it. Quite sad and scary. (I’m not saying you feel that way).

            See you in the future.

        • Pete

          Skywatcher,

          //If you listen to the Muslim clerics, they passionately hate Americans and all others who do not subscribe to Islam.//

          Again, you are not reading my posts carefully. I never said I disagree with what THEY want to do. I explicitly said that I am more concerned with what GOD wants to do. The subject of this particular thread is why GOD is allowing Muslims to spread around the world. Ron’s theory is that God is trying to get them into position to be decimated. My position is that God is putting them into position to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.

          Today’s brand of dispensationalism, along with pre-trib “imminent rapture” and “watcher” mentality leads someone to the conclusion that high on God’s priority list is killing all the Muslims. My Bible says the opposite. God loves the people of Arab decent at least as much as he loves you and I.

          By the way, I have been removed from Facebook dispie discussion groups just for saying that God loves Muslims too.

          • Skywatcher

            No, Pete, I have read your posts very carefully, and I’m in agreement! How come you cannot recognize when people are actually in agreement with you?

            You said, “Today’s brand of dispensationalism, along with pre-trib “imminent rapture” and “watcher” mentality leads someone to the conclusion that high on God’s priority list is killing all the Muslims.”

            As a pre-trib, imminent rapture believer and a watcher, I have NEVER subscribed to the “mentality” or position that God’s priority is the “killing off of all Muslims”! I don’t know of anybody who is of the same position as I am that believes such foolishness. You’ve really stretched far out onto the limb and cut it off from under yourself. 🙂

            You said, “My Bible says the opposite. God loves the people of Arab decent at least as much as he loves you and I.”

            I agree with that position too! You said, “By the way, I have been removed from Facebook dispie discussion groups just for saying that God loves Muslims too.”

            I disagree with that. If you’ve shown the kind of unrighteous tenacity and in your face attitude in those forums as you have here, to those of us who believe a bit differently than you do, I wouldn’t wonder why they have done this.

            I’m trying to remain friendly and Christlike, while you enjoy sowing seeds of disention and contention.

          • Skywatcher

            Pete, as the “whole world” is sitting with bated breath, to see what my response to you will be, I’ll make it short and simple, so that even you can understand.

            You like to argue about every little statement and I’m not wasting my time. I’ll move on, and would recommend you do the same. The ugly “fleshly”part of this mortal would like to rear up and slap you aside your spiritual head, but I won’t do that!

            “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” Mt. 5: 9 I rather enjoy that title, so I’ll walk away now.

          • peggy

            Hi Pete, I did want to make a comment about Hal Lindsey, I have heard that he is a freemason, you may want to search it for yourself, but if it is true I wouldn’t be following what any freemason says.

  • Well well well… the whole world against trump… this is going to get REAL interesting…

    More End Time News At:
    http://www.shininginthedark.com/?page_id=6088

  • Leesa

    All I can say is, this puts things in a whole new perspective, and it really makes a lot of sense. Things are really happening fast…

  • CHar

    Angelgirl, you have told it like it is! Bless you! It’s very disheartening to hear these people rant on that we are wrong about the pre-trib rapture. I was going to a church of 5,000 people where the pastor doesn’t believe in the pre-trib rapture and I’m thinking, these poor people are being misled in his sermons because they are not preparing like they should be. Pretty sad. Well, you keep teaching/preaching it, girl, til we all meet in the air!

  • Chel

    Could someone please explain what you think trump is going to do ? I know you said shake the world but what does that mean do you mean like he may be anti Christ? I hope someone can explain

    • Skywatcher

      Good morning, Chel!

      If Trump is the man he claims to be, and is going to fulfill his election promises, he’s going to ferret out the rats and tromp on the snakes! He’s going to expose them even further, shut down their causes, upset their apple cart and agendas. He could be the “savior” of the USA if he truly did these things, but Ovomit also promised to be the “savior” and was actually worshipped as such! Praise and worship choruses were sung to him in the schools, etc. We know how he turned the USA upside down on its ear don’t we! He gutted the country and then filled it with the spawn of Islam/Satan!

      The truth remains…nobody knows what any candidate will do when they get onto the potty seat of the Oval Outhouse. People all over the world have been beaten, trampled down, lied to, deceived and abused in various ways, and they’re more than tired of it. The world is finally ripe and ready for a messiah figure, but Jesus Christ is the only Messiah who can clean up this mess! Most people that are living today would not be in favor of His “overturning of the money changers’ tables” in the global governmental system because they do not possess the Prince of Peace, upon Whose shoulders the government will rest, Isa. 9:6. We sometimes get caught up with the comments of the Righteous on blogs like this, so much so, that we tend to think sometimes that we are the majority, but we’re a very VERY small minority. God will raise up whom He wants in power at this time.

      If Trump wins, and he actually tosses out the Muslims, an impossibility because they’re planted everywhere, that would be a major step toward bringing America back into line. If he built a wall and shut off the border to illegals and sent them back, that would be a mighty huge and impossible achievement. Unfortunately, most of his promises are impossible to pull off, but most people are hyped up on hope and emotions. I’m not so sure he will even live to become president. As we are all aware, there are some mighty powerful demoniacs within the system, who actually worship Satan and are eager to see him come to full power. They cannot tolerate anything that remotely represents anything good.

      I hope this gives you a little clearer picture now! Hey! Guess what…you’ve finally had a post that was responded to! God bless you, Sis! Keep your eyes firmly planted upon the Savior of the world; He’ll never ever fail you!

      • Ron

        Skywatcher My Brother may I recommend 2 Extremely Excellent Websites

        for Regular doctrine of the Bible and The Rapture itself.

        Rapture Ready at……

        http://www.raptureready.com/

        Rapture Forums at…..

        http://www.raptureforums.com/

        Happy Reading! God Bless You!

        • DC

          I go to RR everyday! Best place to get news headlines, wonderful Nearing Midnight column, and great articles.Thanks, brother.

          • Ron

            Glad to hear it DC If you aren’t reading the Archives you are missing out on a Big Blessing My Sister.

            God Bless You!

  • HOPE

    Geoffrey Grider,
    Now I understand this devotion to Trump. I absolutely have the opposite position as the time of Jesus return for us draws excitingly close. I look at the character of the man and can’t even begin to imagine my Lord honoring my vote for Trump. He may be exactly that tool of judgment…the Saul that comes before David…that you predict. I think this is exactly the time we should stand firm for character and Godliness for our nation. I don’t think we’ll get it but I can’t sacrifice character and righteousness to back a foul-mouthed, evil-hearted man. It is good to know, though, why you think otherwise.

    • Yes, now it all becomes clear. I see God using Trump to “shake the nations” in a profound way. As all these global leaders starting “warning the US” about a Trump presidency, I see PROPHECY written all over it. No other candidate, on either side, is causing these world leaders to tremble, but Trump is. So as a Bible believer, that’s who I want to win. Our Home is NOT America, our Home is in Heaven…as I have been saying for some time now, these are the days of prophecy.

  • Nobunaga

    Donald Trump is an honest man who can do a good job as president. That’s what most people are afraid of. You can’t bully him, threaten him or bribe him. He has proved himself on the front lines of business and built a billion dollar business and kept it. He has integrity and doesn’t need to lie. He isn’t perfect but he is the best person for the job.

  • Chel

    Please could could someone explain every time I write on here no one ever replies to me but yet I have been reading this site for 3 years I’m just a quiet reader who has only just started commenting

    • Consider yourself “replied” to, and thanks so much for being a long time NTEB’er. We appreciate it! 🙂

    • DC

      Good morning, Chel,

      I don’t think anyone is deliberately ignoring you. Some posts get so many comments that it’s hard to keep up. Sometimes Geoff gives a detailed answer or will direct you to something he’s already written. Other times he’ll let the brethren speak up, because (I think) he believes this forum belongs to all of us.

      I think Trump will shake things up because if he becomes president it won’t be “business as usual” with the “You scratch my back & I’ll scratch yours” type of deals. People take money from others when running for government positions and then owe favors once they’re in. Trump has his own money and they won’t be able to tell him from the sidelines how to run the country. That really scares the establishment–those who demand things be done THEIR way in Wash.D.C–and make lots of money doing so; those wanting a more “global” government, which you may see written as NWO–New World Order, which is supposed to happen in the end times of the Anti-Christ: one government, one currency, one religion. Trump won’t be anyone’s puppet.

      We give a lot of jobs and money to countries that hate us, China–who owns the bulk of our debt, and immigrants who, whether legal or illegal, enjoy the welfare benefits of our country. Trump wants to stop our being the world’s ATM machine. We have seniors and veterans and homeless barely surviving, and yet we released 1.5 billion dollars in sanctions to IRAN, who is determined to build a nuke and destroy Israel, our best ally in the Middle East. Trump is determined to DO something about immigration and bring jobs back here. (He certainly has more worldly experience than Obama, the freshman senator community organizer who couldn’t organize his sock drawer.)

      Trump has also commented on the Christians who are being persecuted for practicing their religion, which should be important to all of us. Obama has had a double standard: everything Christian=bad & everything Islamic=good. Trump wants to give us back our rights.

      Obamacare was forced on us and was unConstitutional, and he wants to tear it down. I’m not sure how he intends to replace it, but since most did not “save” $2500 a year but are actually PAYING that much more, it can’t be worse.

      Trump supports the police and praises them frequently; Obama has incited more racial division and pointed the finger at cops, like they enjoy killing perpetrators who happen to be black. Trump also supports our military which Obama abhors, firing like 200 officers/generals who disagreed with his policies. We are a weaker military because of Obama in a time when we need to protect our people more than ever. Trump doesn’t believe in the naive practice of appeasing our enemies and singing “Kumbaya;” terrorism is MUCH more of a threat to our existence than “climate change,” no matter how the left wants to spin it. “Death to America” ought to be a clue, but Obama refuses to acknowledge the threat. This is the man who went golfing 6 minutes after learning an American was beheaded.

      That’s just a few things I can come up with offhand. The big picture is this: whether Republican or Democrat most of our past presidents have been pretty much the same. It’s all a big game controlled by unseen forces, and we the people faithfully go to work and pay our taxes, while those who are supposed to be speaking for us retire as millionaires. That is not serving our country but self-serving. Those in Congress only have to serve one term (4 or 6 years, depending) and they are set FOR LIFE. Trump’s already rich, so maybe his motives are to actually do something FOR THE COUNTRY and not himself. May God let it be so.

      Hope that helps a little.
      Bless you, Chel, and have a great day.

      • Skywatcher

        Wow, DC! That was an excellent post! There is more at stake than what any one person can put down in writing at one sitting! I’m sure Chel is getting the picture quite clearly now!

        Thanks, for that post!

        • DC

          de nada, which is not short for “the Canada,” btw. 🙂 “It’s nothing.” And that, folks, is about the extent of my Spanish.

      • Ron

        Great post for Chel from you DC!

    • Ron

      Welcome Chel!

  • jim rataski

    Good morning Chel. Being replied to is hit or miss anywhere. Most people on this site who are replied to are either A) Regulars, or B) Incite some response with something inflammatory. You will find that on any blog.

    I read here often, and post / comment on rare occasions. I visit here not so much because I agree with all the doctrine, but because the believers here are Looking for the Lord’s return.

    Case in point. This post on Donald Trump. Prior to this election cycle I prayed / asked the Lord “Who is going to be our next President?” I wasn’t praying because I had some hope in this country, but because I strongly believe the Lord is returning in the very next few years. 2018 to be specific. And I wanted to know “who” was going to be ‘in charge’ in the USA when the Lord comes back. Looking at the ‘candidate field’, I saw no one remarkable. Then…. Trump showed up. My thought was “Wow, what a surprise!” and “Yes, that makes sense.” Someone who will stir the pot, and someone who people / nations could really HATE.

    But politics mean little. Just a pawn or a piece of the puzzle. God is moving, God is in control.

    We are called to encourage one another, more so as we see that day approaching. Even this topic is one of encouragement. We see the Lord’s hand in everything.

    One last thing. You may wonder where I came up with 2018 as the Year of our Lord’s return. Especially since Most will incorrectly quote scripture and say “No one knows the day or the hour”. I am not pointing to a day or hour, but a year. BIG difference. His disciples asked him when he would return, and what would be the ‘sign’. He did not start out by saying “No one knows… but the Father”. The Lord actually gave us the Answer. “Learn from the parable of the fig tree…. Truly this generation will not pass away”.. Well the Fig Tree is Israel. It was “replanted” in 1948. The ‘life / length’ of a generation is 70 years. 1948 + 70 = 2018. That is His answer. Yes, I could be wrong. Only he knows, but it makes sense. I think He gave us the year. The day and the hour, only the Father knows.

    What does knowing When (approximately) mean to us? It means… Prepare your lives, your families, the Ark so to speak.

    God’s timing is VERY specific. Noah built the Ark in 120 years. It rained for 40 days and nights. The Children of Israel were in the wilderness for 40 years. Jesus was 30 years old when he began his ministry. Joseph (a type of Christ) was 30 years old when he became ruler of Egypt. The Israelites were in Babylon for 70 years before they were allowed to return to Israel (i.e. 1 generation) My point is (again), the Lord’s ‘math’ is always perfect, with complete numbers.

    1948 + 70 = 2018.

    Something to consider at least…

    The main point is something I think everyone here agrees with is “The Lord is coming soon”.

  • Laura L

    It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in people. It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in princes. Psalm 118:8-9
    It’s easy to see why people respond to Trump the way they do with the enthusiasm they do. He makes lots of promises and tells us what we want to hear. We want to believe he is the one who will get elected into the White House despite the insane opposition against him. However, he is only a man, no matter how charismatic he is or how strong he may present himself to the American people, he is not a substitute for Jesus. He is a sinner like everyone else on this planet in need of salvation through our Lord Jesus. I was reminded of the above verse from Psalm 118. Trump’s rapid rise to power may be the work of God or it may not be, it’s not for me to say. God has used unbelievers before to accomplish his goals, such as when King Cyrus allowed the Israelites to return to their homeland. I am not convinced Mr. Trump is a believer. Our world is broken through sin and only the return of Jesus can be its remedy. You can’t fix broken with broken. While I do agree with you on many of the articles you write, Geoffrey, I must politely disagree with this one. Keep the articles coming, though. There is an urgency now more than ever to wake people up to the fact we are living in the End Times.

    • DC

      Good post. Your points are quite valid and you actually sound like what Geoff and a lot of us our saying:

      -We must, above all, trust in God
      -Trump needs to be saved but God can use him like He used others
      -We are in the End Times

      What Geoff/others add is the WHY behind it all:

      -a billionaire that others can’t bribe to do their will
      -an “in your face” candidate who talks the way he does for the people who are sick & tired of the status quo
      -someone leaders of other powerful countries fear after the wimp Obama let them do anything w/o consequences

      What I still don’t get is why some people (not you necessarily) think we have to have the “most Christian” candidate win the White House. They are ALL posers. I ask, where have the pastors been in standing up for our Christian values in this country? Why do they get a pass and we expect the president to fix things? The Church has kowtowed to the humanist agenda–abortion, same-sex marriage, climate change, etc–and few are calling them out.

      Cruz is part of the establishment/illuminati/NWO who would have to pay back favors for any $ or support he’s gotten. Trump isn’t owned by anyone. Hillary should be in jail. If not Trump, whom do you suggest? Ryan, Romney, and Jeb Bush’s names have been thrown out in the last 24 hrs, and all have failed before. A brokered convention would guarantee Hillary the win–which may be what’s been planned all along.

      Warts and all, Trump wants to get our country back on track. He’s not doing it for the $400K/yr or the $100k speeches down the road. He’s already quite powerful. If money & power are the main motives for the others and Trump doesn’t need either, than could it just be that he really sincerely wants to turn us around?

      Only God knows what will happen. We must pray unceasingly. Our faith is going to continue to get tested as things “wax worse and worse,” but He will never leave or forsake us, even if Trump wins..

      In Him,
      DC

      • DC

        *then

        • Skywatcher

          DC, how come your reply button isn’t working most of the time?

          I just sent a note to Ron which you need to see:

          Ron, you told DC, “Everyone who has accepted Jesus Christ will go in the Rapture those who are asleep are those during the Tribulation”

          That, my friend is NOT biblical! In over 50 years of being a Christian, I have NEVER heard that explanation before now! That flies in direct opposition to I Thess. 4: 14, 16! “Sleep” is a term for the dead, as Christ Himself taught: “He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.” Mt. 9: 24

          Furthermore, how can the Rapture be effective for the living part of the Body of Christ when we are preceded by the dead? I Thess. 4: 14, 15. You say the dead are resurrected during the Tribulation…this doesn’t work! Unless…you’re saying the Rapture happens post-Trib. Is that your position?

          DC, be very careful as to what you’re agreeing to! Think it through!

          • Dc

            I saw your response, and yes, none of our “leave a reply” buttons are coming up in that thread. I’m waiting for someone to say, “Ve are vatching you,” like that could stop us when we’re on a roll.

            Ron might have meant those who are asleep at the wheel or in a zombie state. He’ll have to explain what he meant. I was comforted that believers will go in the Rapture, not just those paying attention/watching. Most of my loved ones believe but don’t pay much attention to end times things, and I get “that look” when I bring it up. I think he got the resurrection out of order; yes, the dead first shall rise, and then we that remain…I can’t speak for Ron but he’s been kind and really engaged in this, so we’ll wait for his response.

          • Ron

            Skywatcher First off let me state this I apologize and have a very short attention span as well as fatigue very badly these days.

            I look forward to the Rapture with great Zeal. I some times forget as I am writing.

            I should have included this in that statement those who died in Christ ( who are asleep )

            shall be Raptured with Us who are alive.

            The Sleep I was referring to was about those virgins who slept during The Tribulation

            ( let their salvation Lapse and thus have no Holy Spirit)

            and The Bridegroom came and they did not have oil for their lamps (symbolic of the Holy Spirit) and because they

            let their Salvation lapse

            ( In a sense sleeping acting like Christ is never going to return and not maintaining their Salvation )

            they are not allowed to enter into the Millenium and are cast into Hell.

            I pray this answers your question Skywalker and thank you for pointing it out I hope I haven’t confused too many by it.

            Feel free to write me again

        • Ron

          My wife, and 4 sons are all saved and they are the same way about the Rapture as your family is, well except for my 2 youngest sons they want the Rapture to happen, but now one of those 2 now has a girlfriend so I’m sure he’ll lose interest in The Rapture happening as well.

          But know this you can say that you wish or think the Rapture will happen soon and I will be just as excited as you are about that prospect!

          • Skywatcher

            My dear brother, Ron!

            It took me ten minutes or more to find the posts you were referring to! Yes, I responded to your apology! All is well here! Your take on the foolish virgins letting their oil lapse is a “take” that I have either heard so long ago and forgotten, or it’s truly unique to me. I like that particular interpretation because it definitely fits. I’m pretty sure I did hear it in the past. My old memory…he ain’t what he used to be!

            However, I have always heard it told that it was referring to the Rapture only, which does make the best sense. After all…the Bridegroom (Christ) is coming back for His Bride (the Church).

            The ten virgins are guests, those five who are ready and fit to partake in the celebration (with plenty of oil of the Holy Spirit or the light of Christ) and those five foolish virgins, for whatever reason didn’t have enough to see them through. I would conjecture that the five wise are the Great Tribulation Saints, and the five foolish are those who never had “oil”/Holy Spirit/the light of Christ in their lamps to begin with, who are damned to perdition.

            The fact remains: the Bride was ready and expectant; all ten virgins slept, v. 5! The Bridegroom didn’t come as soon as they had expected. What we anticipate with a sureness, we are apt to believe is very near. To us, it appears that Christ is tarrying (a lot longer than we’d hope for), and yet, He really isn’t! He’s coming back at the APPOINTED TIME, when He and all else are ready!

            While Christ tarried, ALL the virgins that were waiting for him, grew tired and careless, forgetting what they were actually there for in the first place! They all slumbered and slept, as though they had given up hope of waiting for His return. This sounds a lot like 2 Pet. 3: 3!

            When folk like so many on here, are looking for that ever elusive date of the Rapture, and when those dates arrive and He doesn’t, oftentimes, they get discouraged and give up on His rapturing us out altogether. They lose faith and fall back into their old ways again or they “cool off” and serve Him half-heartedly.

            The wise virgins kept their lamps burning, but they still fell asleep. Too many good Christians, when they have been long in profession, grow remiss and careless. The fruit of the Holy Spirit in their lives tends to get a little rotten and moldy and their works get sloppy and half-hearted before God. They have a love for God, but it’s not their first love. The passion and excitement is no longer there.

            The big thing to take away from this parable is that eventually, the Bridegroom does arrive! He has an appointed time, and He doesn’t come a moment too soon or a moment too late! He’s right on time, according to His heavenly Timex. Christ’s coming will be at OUR midnight, when we least expect Him! He will come when He pleases, to show His sovereignty, and will not let us know the date or the time, so that we will know what our duty is and to be attending to it at all times, no matter what.

            I could go on and on, but surely, this will suffice, won’t it? 🙂

    • Ron

      Laura L

      You do Realize that a No vote for Trump,

      OR a Vote For A Person Who HAS NO HOPE Of Winning,

      is the same as giving a vote for Hillary Clinton

    • Ron

      Laura L Nebuchadrezzer wasn’t a believer either at first and He saw the Jews in the furnace UNburned. It was not until God made him insane for 7 years that when God restored him that Nebuchadrezzer became a God Believing Fearing Man.

      God can do the same with Trump

      1 Samuel 2:6-10 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’S, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

      You do Realize that a No vote for Trump,

      OR a Vote For A Person Who HAS NO HOPE Of Winning,

      is the same as giving a vote for Hillary Clinton

  • jay sprueill

    If TRUMP is elected does that mean the political machine stops running in the “behind closed doors” back ground, of course not. A President without the support of Congress is nothing more than a figurehead. Of course he will have Executive Decisions, and I’m pretty sure he will know how to initiate them as Obama has done. Bottom line is PRAYER is in order for CONGRESS to support him.

    • Ron

      Obama did everything without support of congress and wrote his own laws, a strong leader will command men to follow him. So don’t knock Trump he has the elites on the run!!!!!

      You do Realize that a No vote for Trump,

      OR a Vote For A Person Who HAS NO HOPE Of Winning,

      is the same as giving a vote for Hillary Clinton

  • char

    Jim Rataski, good morning. I read your comment and thoughts on the year you believe the Lord is returning for us. I’ve thought about that too, as probably a lot of other believers have too. What about this thought? I’ve heard some people say that 2017 is the year because it is a 50 year jubilee from the 1967 Six Day War. I don’t know that for sure because I don’t know when Jubilee year is and also they said that the #7 is significant to God. I hope they’re right cause then we’ll be with the Lord one year sooner. lol God Bless!

    • DC

      A jubilee happens every 50 years. A shemitah is every seven years, when the land is to lie fallow, and the poor are allowed to glean from the remaining crops. Every week-7-is like a new beginning. When there are seven sevens (49 years) it’s followed by a jubilee. I’m not sure, but I think that’s when debts are canceled and people can get back the land they had to give up. Jonathan Cahn explains it in The Harbinger and the Shemitah; I get it mixed up, but he showed where the stock market fell on some shemitah years, so maybe that’s when the debts are canceled. I think I got the ‘7’ and ’50’ right, haha. Someone help before I dig myself a hole I can’t get out of. 🙂

      • Skywatcher

        DC, we are currently in the Year of Jubilee, which is extremely significant in light of what’s happening now! truly exciting times!!!

        • Ron

          Amen Skywatcher, Amen!

          • Skywatcher

            Ron, you just provided me with the second biggest laugh of the day! Thank you! I’ll need to take a nap now. I was born a boy, and still am! 🙂 I’m considering a change in the very near future: “…but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye…”! My name is Thomas, and I’m no doubter! 🙂

            God bless you, my fellow man-child! 🙂

        • DC

          Sky, here’s an article by Tom Horn re: 2016, the Jubilees, Rabbi Judah Ben Samuel’s predictions and some Native American prophecy to do w/ the year. Horn is not date-setting but is interested in how many prophecies point to this year. I know you have his & Cris Putnum’s books and like him, so thought I’d share.

          http://skywatchtv.com/2016/03/17/will-2016-prophetically-significant/

          • Ron

            DC are you Female? If You are please forgive me for thinking you were male.

            Is Skywatcher male or female, do you know? I hope that the person is male at least

          • DC

            Ron, I’m a girl. My name is Denise and I never liked it; got called “Dennis” when my mom had my very long hair cut in a pixie when I was 9 or 10. I still have a haircut phobia! My family calls me “Dee,” but there’s already another one on here, thus I use my initials. Sky is a boy, at least that’s the story he’s sticking to. haha

          • Ron

            I apologize for thinking that you were a guy. But I must admit that your little story and winding up being called DC
            is pretty cool! God Bless You Sister!

      • Kiwiwatcher

        If you are counting on a Jubilee year, according to the Old Testament Scriptures, – it only applied to Israel, it only applied to when Israel was in the homeland (not relevant in captivity in Babylon), only applied to Israel after a sacrifice was held and the blessings and curses were announced publicly to Israel and all the people applied the principals of the covenant – counting the years forward (joshua 8:30-35).

        Meanwhile, if one did manage to obey Gods Old Testament instructions, to believe in the Shimitah/Jubilee year Old Testament system is to deny Christs sacrifice and resurrection – this will be a covenant revisited by the antichrist as part of his taking the kingdom with flatteries.

        • Rapture Rooster

          Kiwiwatcher, I fully agree with what you say here, however, the non-Messianic Jews (Orthodox and others) are still observing some of these O.T. Shemitahs, feasts, etc. Therefore, wouldn’t it behoove us to pay a little attention to these details? After all, they are either a type or a foreshadow of Christ’s atoning and redemptive work.

          I’m not saying that we, as Gentiles, are to be watching for signs, but only a fool would be totally oblivious to the signs that God is providing to Israel. These signs affect us as well. Like you, I believe we should be focusing on our Savior and doing His bidding, rather than be trying to calculate when He is coming back. An earthquake could take us all out tonight, well before the Rapture happens!

          • Kiwiwatcher

            Am aware of feasts etc, but can you point me to which group is currently instigating the Shemitah. Twas only a couple of weeks ago the Sanhedrin stated, that the shemitah had to follow the process I just outlined, that it can only be counted going forward, and as yet – the public announcement had not occurred, but it would – one day soon.

          • Ron

            Yes you are right Rapture Rooster about the Jews Observances and the 3 Remaining Feasts will be fulfilled at

            Christs Return and after. Jesus Will come back on the Feast of Trumpets it is the Feast of an unknown day and hour ( 1 of 2 possible days and any hour )

            whereas they look for a new moon to start it they will be looking for The Messiahs Return this time at the end of the Trib

            Yom Kippur for the Day of Atonement followed by

            Sukkot Feast of Tabernacles which is normally 7 days but this time will last a 1,000 years because Christ will be permanently Tabernacling in a manner of speaking with His Chosen People.

            What a wonderful time for the Jews finally, I am so tired of all the hostility against them and all the evils that have befallen them. I could not watch the movie “Schindler’s List” without crying my eyes out and I always pray The Lord will be extra merciful to them during the Trib.

    • Skywatcher

      Hmmm…Char…me has to sit back and muse a minute. Since the #7 is so special to God, and we KNOW it is, then what makes 2017 so “special”, considering this year in Israel “5777” has three 7’s in it? Three = Trinity; 7 = perfection/completion/rest. Just a thought! Perhaps Yeshua will come back before 2017. Now, there’s something to ponder on! 🙂 Are we actively doing all we can to lead souls (apart from our immediate families) to Him?

  • Tracy

    Amen to all !! He is coming soon!! The stage is being set, the players are being put into place, and the curtain is going to be drawn.
    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

    • Ron

      Amen Tracy! Oh Happy Day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless!!!!!

  • Char

    Hi DC, I hope you are feeling better. You were kinda down the other day at the store. Been praying for you. So, I don’t know if you saw my post about 3 hours ago that kinda said what you said about 1967 (The Six Day War) plus 50 years (Jubilee year) and we come to the grand total of 2016/2017, plus the #7 being a significant number to God, so I’m all for it being next year and this year would be even better. He says we’ll know the season, but that still leaves us kinda scratching our heads as far as how close cuz a year or two is not that big of a difference, but at the rate of speed that prophecy is being fulfilled, I’d say 2017 (just after Trump gets into the White House). God Bless!

    • DC

      Yes, I read it. I find it all so interesting, even if it only applies to Israel. We can still learn from it. In fact, Jonathan Cahn was criticized for showing stock market crashes in the US with Shemitah years b/c the US is obviously not Israel. The Blood Moons hype had some credibility problems as well, with dates/years being off, but I still find it interesting. There sure seems to be something in the air that SOMETHING’S coming. You might have read my trying to “do the math,” not date-setting but playing around, especially with feast days coming. Lots of significant things have happened on feast days, so I try to be aware.

      I’m doing ok. My chest still has a dull ache off and on, but I’m wondering if it’s the change in seasons. The pressure in my ears have been very painful, which only started happening last yr. and lasted for 3 months, so I’m thinking it’s probably the atmospheric pressure changes, like when someone’s bunions tell them it’s going to rain. 🙂 I take allergy medicine, but still have panicky feelings when my back or chest hurts. I had a heart test last year that turned out ok, but still, my dad died of a heart attack, so it’s always in the back of my mind. I try to remind myself I am ok, but I think, will this be the time when it’s not anxiety but the big one? I know that if it were it wouldn’t come and go; they say you KNOW when you’re having a heart attack. Thanks for the prayers. I pray for you and your kids too, as well as others on here who have asked for prayer. My greatest prayer every night is that all my loved ones will be counted worthy to go in the Rapture and that we’d all live until He comes. (Too much loss already.) I don’t want to die; I want to “fly” as they say. I do treasure every moment with family, husband, kids, grandchild, etc. and thank God for these blessings every day. I don’t want to miss a thing until He comes and I want us all to go together. Worrying about them all is what gets me anxious. Wouldn’t it be great if God would send us an email saying it’s going to work out ok? 🙂 Bless you & thanks!

      • Skywatcher

        Hey there, DC!

        THIS IS YOUR EMAIL FROM GOD! EVERYTHING IS GOING TO WORK OUT O.K. I’M STILL IN CONTROL!

        Sorry to hear of your health issues, Sis. It could very well be a bit of anxiety and stress picking away at you. Try not to allow it to get to you!

        I get pains in my chest sometimes too, with tingling going down my left arm, but so far, it always turns out to be acid indigestion! The really strange thing is that I can always read my body, which fascinates my doctor to know end. I told him, whenever I get that tingling, after a couple of flatulent “experiences”, it goes away! He doesn’t see a connection, but I do, because it spells RELIEF every time! At first, I used to be a bit concerned about it, thinking it was the “big one” comin’ on, but each time, ‘lizbeth has to wait a little longer! Remember the Sanford & Son show?! Now, after lots of experience, I know what it is, can’t do anything about it, and wait for it to pass ~ no pun intended!

        I’ve been tested and all is well. Unlike you, I want to die! Yes sirree, Bubba! You see, I was raised in the 60’s when we were still being taught to work for those things that we desired, save our money, and to make our money stretch as far as possible! Keeping the latter in mind, I want my money’s worth! To be raptured without ever having the dying experience would make me feel cheated out! I lived long enough to die, and I don’t want to have prepared my funeral arrangements 30 years ago for nothing! 🙂 Aren’t I awful?! If I have my way, I get to die and fly! 🙂

        Let’s go back to something you referred to. I have never heard Rabbi Jonathan Cahn call himself “a prophet”; in fact, I’ve heard him say just the opposite. He was going by historical trends, and how they always fell upon the various feast days, etc. That stands to good reason. I have no issue with that. Now, if he called himself a prophet, and it didn’t come to pass…I’d be singing a much different tune! As we’ve seen on this site and others, people are all too anxious to write the brethren off as this or that. There isn’t much mercy or grace in those corners either. So far, I haven’t found one preacher, teacher, saint or sinner that isn’t spotless!

        It was Pastor Mark Biltz who first went public with the blood moons scenario, based upon history and of course, astronomy. What most people are forgetting is that nothing EVER happens on the dates that the blood moons occur! The events take place a little before, or a few months after the series. We are still well within the perimeters of the blood moons for God to still “pull off” some mighty interesting things in His prophetic time-table, i.e. the Rapture. The blood moons are for signs; wake-up calls. As fast as events are speeding up, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we’re evacuated any time before I finish this post and this fall, according to the feasts!

        God does NOT have to do anything when we feel He should, as you already know. Nor does He do things at the exact moment in time when we expect it to happen. I think that is one of the main reasons why the Jewish calendar days and dates are set up the way they are! Some things take one or two days to be accomplished. One of these days, somebody is going to be correct: He will snatch us away! Stay well, and live long to enjoy family AND to have the dying experience! 🙂

        • DC

          Yes, I was quoting Sandford when I said, “The Big One.” I actually took 2 aspirin, read a few verses about fear and sleeping in the peace of God, prayed for a long time, and slept well. Every morning I thank Him for giving me another day. I’ve had anxiety issues my whole life and let myself get suckered into medication for a few years, but have been off them for a year and a half, so when I have an attack it’s pretty scary. It keeps me in constant prayer, tho, so some good comes of it. I have had times when I’m afraid to go to sleep for fear of not waking up, but not much I can do about it if it happens. I think, like Char said, that it could be an attack by the devil to make me doubt, but I rebuke him and bind up those scary thoughts; I have to do it often but then I get to praise God often for seeing me through. If we are in the “birth pangs” of the end, then I must be having “sympathy pains.”

          We don’t want you to die; you are too valuable to us here, but if you did it would be to a great reward.

          I wasn’t criticizing Cahn or Blitz but saying how interesting I found their work even if they’ve been criticized by others. There have been many scoffers, so I was just treading carefully. I know God works in patterns and uses the sun, moon, and stars for signs and that He is giving us warnings. If not everyone sees that and mocks those who are watching and warning it could very well be to their detriment.

          Because He lives, I can face tomorrow.
          Because He lives, all fear is gone.
          Because I know, He holds the future.
          And I can face the living just because He lives.

        • Ron

          DC is Female????? If She is I apologize DC I thought you were a dude and being ex-navy/subs I should have known better than assume something.

          Skywatcher your post is fine, in response to my response.

          sincerest apologies DC

          • DC

            no harm, no foul, Ronda, I mean Ron. 🙂

          • Ron

            TOO FUNNY DC! ROFL!

  • CHAR

    Skywatcher, hey there, buddy, I was thinking about the 7 in 2017, but yours is better with the three 7’s AND what’s even better is that you say He’s coming back before 2017. If my math serves me right, I’d say that would be this year! I’m absolutely all for that. I see very few people in a day and many days I don’t go out of the house, but I know there’s plenty of ppl out there to witness to. I know I must do that. I’m kinda shy and not outgoing at all, so I’m guilty of not witnessing much (only to my close friends and my children). I certainly hope you are correct about the Lord return this year….although the children are not ready. At least they don’t roll their eyes now we I talk about the Lord’s return. That’s a plus!

    • Skywatcher

      Whoa there, Char! I’m happy for your excitement, but this is what I said, “Perhaps Yeshua will come back before 2017.” PERHAPS! That’s not a for-sure-promise! I wish I knew how to “bold” words in these posts!

      I don’t want you selling out your share of the house tomorrow or on Dec. 29th, because it’s getting close to the “Best Before” date! I cannot prove that anymore than you can recite the winning numbers for next week’s Power Ball draw!

      All things with moderation, and until you hear that blessed trumpet, occupy until He comes! I’m glad to hear you’re making some progress with your kits there! Step by loving step! As far as witnessing goes, it matters not who you witness to; the important thing is that you’re witnessing! 🙂 Love ya, Sis! I’m going to toddle off to bed now, before my Oil of Olay wears off! (Kidding!)

      • Edwitness

        Hey Skywatcher and all,
        I have been reading your comments and just drinking in all the joy coming from your anticipation for the return of the Lord for His bride. Wow! Geoffrey’s reasoning for a Trump presidency is exciting. Let the shaking begin. And Skywatcher, the way to make bold the words you want to is to type two asterisks directly in front () of and two behind () what you want to make bold. Like this.
        Blessings:-} and MARANATHA!!

        • Skywatcher

          Good morning, Brother Edwitness and all! Thank you, for that tidbit of information! This could be the day He calls His bride away! Yaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy! Can’t you just hear Kermit the Frog in that “Yaaaaayyyyyyy”?! 🙂

          • Edwitness

            Skywatcher, Char, Heather, Tracy, DC, and all,
            Glad to be of help. I don’t know a shortcut for italics Skywatcher. But I have a great praise report. A young man at work was confiding in me about his marriage problems. He said his wife wanted a divorce and that they were in counseling. He told me that his wife was raised in the church (so she knows better) and that her parents and siblings were praying for their marriage. He said that he had started going to church also.
            After many questions and some attempts at encouragement I asked him if he had come to faith in Jesus. He said he believed that Jesus is God, but that he did not know what being born again was. After explaining what Jesus taught about being born again I asked him if he would like to ask Jesus to be Lord of his life. He was hesitant at first, but after further explanation he prayed with me right then and there to receive Jesus as Lord and savior. It was glorious!
            God is so good! He blessed me with another opportunity to be involved in another lost soul coming home.
            Please pray for our new brother and his wife. His name is Trent and we are hoping she will hear the voice of the Lord in bringing her back to her spiritual senses. And pray especially for Trent so that he can grow in the knowledge and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. That his heart would be good ground that produces fruit 30, 60, or 100 times what was planted.
            Wow! I’m still walking on a cloud. Glory to Jesus!!
            MARANATHA!
            Blessings to all:-}

      • Edwitness

        Skywatcher,
        That is asterisks ** not parentheses. The parentheses had two asterisks between them and made the words bold instead of showing the asterisks like I thought it would.
        Blessings:-}

        • Heather

          Bless you brother Checking to see if it works for me.

        • Heather

          Oh awesome! Thank you for that tip Edwitness!

          • Tracy

            Thank you Edwitness.
            Checking to see if it works for me too.

          • DC

            oh, I have to get in on this! I just got a new computer–a notebook and there are buttons (like all caps) missing and I’m having to learn things all over again, like cut & paste. Thanks if it works, and if it doesn’t I’m sure it’s my fault!

          • DC

            A-woo a-hoo!

        • Ron

          ()TEST() TEST

          • Ron

            Thank You whoever taught this thanks!

          • Skywatcher

            Ron, I asked Edwitness to tell me how to do it! Everybody is having fun with it now! Thanks Ed! Do you have a short cut for italics?

        • Skywatcher

          Edwitness, after I prayed for Trent, the Holy Spirit reminded me of that extremely great movie, “Fireproof”! Have you seen it? It’s about a couple whose marriage is breaking down, wife files for divorce, and the husband rededicates himself to Christ. In brief…the marriage is saved! If you can get that movie into Trent’s hands and strongly encourage him to watch it, he may see a lot of parallels, and he’ll definitely receive a lot of godly counsel and hope! You can see more about it on http://www.fireproofthemovie.com One of the best movies I’ve EVER seen on the subject!

          I got it “dirt cheap” off http://www.christianbook.com I hope this helps!

          Blessings!

          • Edwitness

            Skywatcher,
            Thanks for the recommend. I will pass it on. I believe it would be a great help to Trent also. He came in the next day and told me that he felt a peace after praying with me for salvation that has also remained since. His wife’s family is rejoicing with him also.
            Blessings:-]

        • Ron

          Praise The Lord on Leading that man to Christ The Angels in Heaven are rejoicing and we are One Soul Closer to going Home.

          Good Job Edwitness!

          • Edwitness

            Ron,
            That was my thinking as well. As we prayed I hoped he would be the one that would bring the Lord for His bride. I guess we will just have to keep on witnessing until He does. 🙂 God is good and always keeps His promises. We will be going home soon.
            Thanks for the encouragement.
            Blessings:-}

        • Skywatcher

          Brother Edwitness, I recommended “Fireproof” for Trent, not for his wife. The principles would apply FOR her if it were the other way around. I would suggest this movie for MEN in Brent’s position. I’m so glad he came back to work with peace the next day! That is T-totally awesome! I’m praying for he and his wife EVERYDAY! It’s on my ‘puter calendar to remind me to do so first thing each morning! Great things are going to happen for them! Praise God! Blessings! 🙂

  • Char

    Skywatcher, too late. I sold the house and moved to the Bahamas. Just kidding! Of course I knew that you are just speculating. NO ONE KNOWS the day or the hour, but the Father. Even if we did know, no one would believe us. It would be nice though for it to happen this year. Someone has actually said on this post that they think it will be October 3rd of this year. Hmmmm, I hope they’re right is all I can say about that! Good night, sleep tight and wake up beautiful from your Oil of Olay!

  • CHAR

    Kiwiwatcher, well that blows away the idea of the 50 year Jubilee celebration after the 1967 Six Day War. I guess we can just say it’s the 50th anniversary of the Six Day War and nothing else about it (like the rapture is going to happen because of the 50 year Jubilee). I guess we’re all trying to read God’s mind on when He has it all set up for our trip to eternity!

    Thanks for the info.

  • Angel

    I’m not sure I understand your reasoning. It sounds like you are wanting to help usher in the end of the world by electing someone who is very temperamental and “shoots from the hip”. Why wouldn’t you want to vote for someone like Ted Cruz who has laid out his policies and they are good and conservative. If he wants to reclaim america for Jesus I think that is great. I do not follow dominionist theology, but if we have a chance to choose righteousness, then why wouldn’t we choose it?

  • DC

    Because my reply button is having technical difficulties I went to the bottom of the page; plus I know the last shall be first and could use all the help I can get!

    I just happened to go to gracethrufaith.com as I do daily, which is the website of Jack Kelley who died last year. His wife, Samantha, has kept the site up and uses questions Jack once answered in his “Ask a Bible Teacher” column, and today’s 1st one was on Matt 24, of which we’ve been having a very civilized conversation. (Also, in a different article here on Geoff’s site, he reminded us of his own article that Matt 24 isn’t about the Rapture but the 2nd Coming.) So if you’re interested, here it is:

    https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/questions-on-the-historical-view-of-prophecy/

  • CHAR

    Hey Ron, don’t feel bad, I thought Skywatcher and Sola Scriptura were both females for a long time and come to find out, they’re not, so it happens to the best of us! Hard to tell by the names they have on here, huh. My name (Char) was taken wrong on another post by a pastor thinking I’m a Charles. lol God Bless!

    • Ron

      Thanks for telling me that Char I hope I remember that

      it just that I have an allergy at Blogs when it comes to sexes

      I seem to break out in stupidity when it comes to sexes

      God Bless Char and thanks for that bit of info

    • DC

      We are all going to get new names that only God knows. I like how some Native Americans didn’t name their kids until they saw the child’s personality come out. I would be Talks Too Fast and Too Much! or so I’ve been told MY WHOLE LIFE! 🙂

  • CHar

    DC, if they did name us the way the Native Americans do, I’d be called Question Box….apparently I asked a lot of questions when I was a kid (and maybe they didn’t know the answers), so they’d say “go away, question box”.

    • DC

      Skywatcher may have gotten his name that way. Lots of Native Americans in O’ Canada! 🙂
      Buffalo Billy sounds like it too.
      Pistol Pete…well, he IS a pistol!

      Char, I’m praying that you have a peaceful weekend. You know what I mean. Love ya!

    • Ron

      I am Seminole from my grandmothers side, and possibly some AA from my Grandfathers side his family hailed from Barbados the sad part about Barbados is their records office actually burnt down way back and I cannot find out more about this.
      The rest of me is mainly Irish, Scotch and British.
      Yes I like the way the Native Americans named their children, the Bible is similar in this respect on how people named their Children look at Rachel and Leah and others.

      • DC

        My great-grandma was Native American, but she was adopted, so we have no records. The rest of me is French-Canadian.

        • Dianne

          Hello DC, you might want to have a DNA test. I suggest Ancestry.com
          Their test are 99% accurate and only cost $99. You will receive your results pretty quickly and I can give you the code for free shipping and handling if you want. Let me know if you are seriously interested. If you are don’t be surprised if you find out how many cousins you have. I have 49 pages of them that I never knew about, lol!!!
          Peace and blessings,
          Dianne

          • DC

            Thanks, Dianne. I’ve seen ads on tv for Ancestry but am a little leery of having my DNA on file somewhere. The gov’t already has my fingerprints from when I was a teacher. I know I sound like a Libertarian or conspiracy theorist, but I worry about what can be done against us. It’s exciting that you learned of so many relatives that way, though. I also have 1/16 English & 1/16 African American from my other great-grandma, but little is known about her. I was married in the same church as her almost 100 years apart, so I always wanted to know more, but in those days, unfortunately, biracial marriages weren’t talked about. I DO think the medical history you can get is valuable. Thanks for your comment, and God Bless you, too.

        • Dianne

          Hello DC, that reply button was missing for you on the Ancestry.com issue. Lol, I agree with NOT giving the government anymore info on oneself if possible. However if they want your DNA all they have to do is go in your trash can my dear. Don’t become paranoid about it because you are under the blood of Jesus. I am multiracial and already knew that. I was looking for other reasons and to my disappointment I do not have Native American Indian. Have a wonderful day and thanks for responding.

          • DC

            The ‘leave a reply’ apparently thinks I talk too much and tries to discourage people from responding, I guess. haha “Don’t get her started!”

            You are right, of course; any time we have blood drawn or get a shot our DNA could be secreted away by the gov’t. I also agree that we are all under the blood of Jesus and shouldn’t worry about the rest.
            I’d love to know my history but not just the biological trail. I’d like to know why my great-gram was adopted, what tribe she came from, and what it was like living on a reservation, if she wasn’t adopted at birth (not sure.) There’s a family photo of a lady next to a tee-pee, but no one knows for sure about the story. My biracial great-gram was a family secret, I think b/c her black mother was a servant (in the North, so not a slave) to an English relative and taken advantage of. She, incidentally, was also adopted, and my great-aunt knew the story but “took it to her grave,” as she said she’d do. Quite the soap opera in my family history! I have some genealogies people have done over the years but not all. When I was young people said I looked like another great-gram, who was married at 16 and had 14 kids! I have pictures, so it’s kind of cool.
            Thanks for sharing and letting me ramble on, with or without that wicked “reply” button. There’s no stopping a “magpie” like me, which my high school biology teacher called me 33 yrs. ago, but that’ another story!

      • Ron

        DC That’s cool Canadian People seem to have a very friendly spirit from my encounters with them and seem to be very

        family oriented just my observation.

        God Bless You Sis!

  • Skywatcher

    DC, Pete is messin’ with your head! I wouldn’t mind having you on my debate team anytime! You’ve done extremely well. Pete’s rebuttal doesn’t hold water, but I’m NOT joining in on this useless foray, beyond this point. When ONE person strongly believes they can discredit MANY very sincere and VERY learned men of God, I take issue with that. Pete is playing with semantics, and it’s very easy to see.

    No matter what we say, he is going to continue to take Scripture out of context to make his point, which is so very evident. We have better things to be doing for our Lord than to be caught up in this.

    “But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”

    I realize this is about the law, but the same principle applies…these contentions “are unprofitable and vain”.

    Enough said.

    • Ron

      I completely Agree with Skywatcher, his doctrinal views are so distorted that I feel a Rebuke is in order. If I were you I would just ignore Pete anymore.

      In all my years on Blogs I have read anything so bad as his responses. Skywatcher Bro not trying to nit pick but it is important that you The Chapter and Verse.

      What you wrote is correct but we need to always include the above in case babes on milk read they know where it came from.

      God Bless You Skywatcher!

      I wrote this elsewhere on here too, but I wanted to make sure you and DC get it

      Skywatcher My Brother and DC My Sister may I recommend 2 Extremely Excellent Websites

      for Regular doctrine of the Bible and The Rapture itself.

      Rapture Ready at……

      http://www.raptureready.com/

      Rapture Forums at…..

      http://www.raptureforums.com/

      Happy Reading! God Bless You!

      • Pete

        Ron and Skywatcher, you can ignore/rebuke me all you wish, and so can DC. And sure, you have no reason to trust me anymore than I have to trust you. But you are just completely factually wrong about the following…

        I am not posting “endless genealogies and fables”. Nothing of what I have written remotely falls under these categories.
        I have not posted any “doctrine”. I have only posted my interpretation of scripture and challenged some of the status quo. This is entirely within my rights and responsibilities as a Christian. We are to test these things. If you want to just open up and swallow what your leaders have spoon fed you…go ahead. I won’t do that.
        I am not “messin'” with anyone’s head. You have no proof of that, you are simply leveling a charge at someone with whom you have zero personal contact with.

        Ron I welcome your “rebuke” and rebuttal. Please use scripture, though, not your usual rhetoric. Use rhetoric with me, and I will end the conversation. That’s the problem with your views. Too much rhetoric, not enough BIBLE.

        Most of what I write has 100% scriptural support. You make the absurd claim that I uniquely seek to “discredit MANY very sincere and VERY learned men of God”…just shows where you come from. I have just as many “sincere and learned men of God” that believe what I believe. Do you follow MEN? I don’t. I follow GOD.

        If this makes you sad, angry and frustrated…maybe that’s the Holy Spirit pricking your conscience.

        So…ignore away! It won’t stop me from posting and there are lots of people on these boards who are like me: dissatisfied with folks like you, who have been telling them “just believe me, don’t question it, I don’t owe you any proof.”

        • Ron

          PETE The Lord SEVERELY REBUKE THEE IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN!

          If You are not a Born again True Christian then I pray the Lord will convict you on you need to be saved strongly.

          If you are Mormon or Jehovah Witness you are not a Christian.

          • Pete

            Ron, you aren’t biblically rebuking me, you are just insulting me because you are frustrated. NO I am not a JW, or a Mormon or RCC or whatever ad hom you want to throw at me. I thought you were ignoring me? Either ignore me and go away. Or start coming up with BIBLICAL answers to what you think is my heretical teaching.

          • Pete

            I know Ron doesn’t want to speak to me anymore, which is just fine by me. That means I can counter his arguments here without any answers back. Those of you who aer following the discussion with a spirit of openness might appreciate more dialog. And by the way, a spirit of openness means: “Wow, I just might be WRONG about things. I don’t know it all, and neither does my pastor or my favorite author. I just might have something NEW to learn today!” THAT is what I mean. Apparently the pre-trib dispie group has long ago decided that THEY should tell everybody else what to think, and REBUKE THEE if thou dost disagree. THAT IS CULT LIKE BEHAVIOR.

            So now, on to Ronnie and his ongoing rhetoric.

            //Israel is the Fig Tree.//

            I just want to point out to anyone who really cares: THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THIS, ANYWHERE.

            //When He came to Israel the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and Lawyers all knew based on the book of Daniel when the Messiah was supposed to arrive.//

            Yes. They should have know, anyway. Jesus rebuked them in Matt 16:3. Did He talk about fig trees? OOOPS no He did not, He said “ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?” Now what, Ron? Is Jesus implying red skies are a symbol for Israel too?

            If you are going to say the fig tree also represents Israel in Matt 21, fine. That means no fruit will EVER grow on Israel again, EVER. Now what, Ronnie? By the way, the point of the cursed fig tree in context is FAITH. Jesus turns it into a faith lesson in Matthew 21:21. If this is a lesson about the Pharisees…what’s Jesus talking about? I realize this means you have to read the context, and guys like Ron don’t understand that.

            //Proof there is a Millenium Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.//

            This says the martyrs will reign WITH Christ a thousand years. Not that Christ’s reign is on earth for a thousand years. HUGE difference. My Aunt worked under President Bush for 3 years. Does that even remotely imply that Bush was only President for 3 years? Jesus Christ reigns TODAY, now, and FOREVER. Not some semi-golden age of a thousand years concocted MEN.

            Hey Ron, go find a single place in the Old Testament that says the kingdom of Christ is anything BUT “forever”. Go find that spot that discusses a 1000 year reign. Can’t find it, eh? I know.

            //Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.//

            That’s exactly what pre-trib dispensationalism does. It ADDS and TAKES AWAY. It adds things like…

            a 2000+ year gap between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week called “the church age”
            a secret rapture of the church prior to a 7 year tribulation
            a 7 year tribulation period
            a difference between Jew and Greek in the body of Christ that will manifest itself in this 7 year tribulation
            4 different Gospels, at least
            says that sin is actually caused by the devil, not by sinners like us. After all, when the devil is bound sin will be greatly reduced. HERESY.

            etc.

          • Ron

            Pete said: “I have only posted MY interpretation of scripture.”

            there you have it His Interpretation not Holy Spirit Inspired.

            And to wit…….

            2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

          • Pete

            Ron, come up with actual dialog or go away. EVERYBODY interprets the Bible, including you. It’s just more of your same tired arrogance that claims that YOU are the only person on the planet who truly knows all truth.

    • Skywatcher

      My bad! I usually supply the references UNLESS I forget! My humble apologies! The Scripture text is Titus 3: 9. A couple of other applicable passages for this issue are,

      “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.” I Tim. 1: 4

      “But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.” II Tim. 2: 23

      Thank you, Ron, for bringing this to my attention! It allowed me to further the teaching! 🙂 This just goes to prove that Christ knew what He was doing when in Jn. 15, He calls Himself the true vine, and we are the branches! We each bring something to the rest of the vine, that helps them and us to bear more fruit for the Master! How exciting is that!

      • Ron

        Good Point Sky!

    • kiwiwatcher

      Hear you loud and clear on this one brother Skywatcher…..like a loud ringing dinner gong.

    • kiwiwatcher

      Hear you loud and clear on this one brother Skywatcher…..like a loud ringing dinner gong.

      (hopefully this is posted beneath Skywatcher’s warning)

      • Ron

        Kiwi Thank You for the info on the fig tree half of what you said I already knew, but you showed me some new things I did not know God Bless You My Brother!

      • Ron

        Kiwi we all have been wrong in doctrine for the last 2,000 years and now Pete has all the answers for us!

        He is just trying to make one proselyte and if you notice anyone who listens and doesn’t argue with any of his doctrine

        he acts so nice toward and then twists everyone else’s words when he is caught in his own lies like this one…….

        Geoffrey does not know that Mr. Trump will usher in the antichrist or the second coming,

        and Geoffrey does not know how “soon” the rapture is.

        Now Geoffrey according to him has no ability to determine how soon the rapture is according to Pete Himself!

        and then we have Pete in the next sentence saying

        In fact I can almost guarantee that we will still be here, 5 years from now

        “Sarcasm on” we know with Pete’s doctrine we can rest assured of his accuracy “Sarcasm off”

        And for Pete once Again…

        The Lord Severely Rebuke Thee

        I am only the requester and only if it’s in His Will Will The Lord do it.

        So if YOU PETE feel lousy and rebuked The Lord did it not me, I cannot Force The Lords Hand!

    • DC

      I don’t think Pete’s a bad person. There are lots of pastors who believe as he does. I had to stop watching Pat Robertson’s 700 Club, even though I like the testimonies and opportunity every day for one to get saved, b/c he has taught contrary to a pre-trib Rapture, and has been “out there” on such things as “you can be born in the wrong body.” A pastor agreeing with such nonsense! God doesn’t make mistakes! What are the seminaries teaching? Sad.
      Anyway, Pete’s been civil to me; we just disagree, and he’ll be the first to do the V-8 head-slap when we meet him in the clouds! Have a blessed day! 🙂

      • Ron

        DC When a person does not respond to sound doctrine like you, Sky, Kiwiwatcher, Char, and myself when we correct each other then that person

        is more likely than not NOT SAVED because if they were the Holy Spirit would convict them to change their thought to that

        which is right. Another thing the Holy spirit bears witness we are the Children of God I feel a Deep seated connection

        with all of You, sadly it does not with Pete. The fact that Pete is more sure about his so called doctrine on this board

        over so many people that I know are Christians is so disturbing on so many levels. He is likely a Jehovah Witness

        since they have a Bible with their own Doctrine and words God Help Them, or they are a new denomination that has

        the so called truth revealed to them after 2,000 years.

        People who are like him are showing the lateness of the Hour. The Rapture is near.

        • Pete

          When the only argument Ronnie has is “Gosh, Pete doesn’t agree with my teachers on this subject, so he isn’t a Christian”…that’s when you know Ron has lost the argument. He has no foundation to stand on, only ad hom attacks and insults. This is rampant throughout this “doctrine” of pre-trib dispensationalism. They have nothing, so they just keep yelling louder and attacking people. Notice that Ron has yet to counter any of my scriptures.

          Hey Ron, what’s “near” mean? I thought the definition of “near” is 2000 years and counting (Rev 1:1). I guess that means we have 1000s more years huh?

          • Ron

            ISRAEL IS THE FIG TREE

            Skywatcher wrote some additional in my support

            To further add to what you have so accurately stated to DC and all, Brother Ron, Israel is identified as the fig tree in Joel 1: 6, 7:

            “For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion. 7. He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree” he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.”

            Hosea 9: 10, “I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time…

            This concept of Israel being the “fig tree” is as we know, carried over in Mt. 24: 32, Mk. 13: 28; Lu. 21: 29, 30. This was so important that God had it purposely included in His Word in all these passages!

            I hope this helps somebody out there! God bless!

          • kiwiwatcher

            Ron – re Fig tree (hope I am in the right place) and feeling manly today

            (smiling) I am sure Skywatcher will assemble a sermon from this, but a draft from between the ears.

            First, yes you all are correct that Israel is the fig tree.

            The third tree mentioned in the Bible is the fig.

            “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.” Genesis 3:7

            Now, when handing out the fig leaves – remember to give Trump a small one. No need to over do it.

            Amazing to see the ‘leaf of Israel’ used to cover ‘our nakedness.’
            “….and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.” Genesis 12:3

            “Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:” Matthew 24:32

            In the Messianic age today – a fruit bearing fig tree would demonstrate itself as bringing converts to Christ. Israel would be evangelising and winning souls to Christ. But if no fruit – one would expect a secular country holding onto Judaism which increases as though putting forth leaves.

            Blessings to you all

        • Pete

          Well Ron, finally some scripture and some answers! We are getting somewhere.

          My answer is that Joel 1:6,7 doesn’t say one thing about the fig tree representing Israel, anymore than it says Israel is represented as a vine. Those verses are literal, and they are talking about how the enemies of Israel have destroyed the land, all the way down to the bark of the trees. It even talks about the land having no more wine, in verse 5. Everything has been decimated. It’s like me saying America has been destroyed, our skyscrapers and our stadiums have been taken down to rubble. Did I just say that “skyscrapers” represent America?

          Sheesh. And I have “private interpretation”? You guys do this all the time. The verse never once says anything at all about fig tree=Israel yet you just say it does. And all of us who disagree are heretics, JWs, unbelievers, heading to hell, tools of Satan. Wow. The sheer arrogance.

          To continue…

          Hosea 9:10, “I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time…

          Here again we have a comparison to grapes AND fig trees. So, sorry about that, not convincing. Then unfortunately for you it isn’t the nation of Israel that’s the fig tree here. It’s the FATHERS and they are compared to the early figs, or the bikkuwrah. Not the tree itself. And not the nation.

          Try again. And this time instead of accusing ME of taking verses out of context why don’t you stop doing it.

          • Ron

            You are either unteachable Pete, Arrogant, or you are not saved and Satan has convinced you that you are, because

            you seem to be blind to the Scriptures.

            How many times since you were saved you thought “You were going to Hell”

            And how long have you been saved?

        • Pete

          Ron. Where does either Joel or Hosea say that the fig tree represents the nation of Israel?

          • Ron

            The Lord Rebuke Thee Pete

    • Pete

      Well thank you DC, and I would appreciate any specific arguments to my points. If you want. Personally I get frustrated when I spend a lot of time carefully laying out my arguments only to be told that I am just wrong, and that’s it. But whatever. Most people are not open minded.

      • DC

        Pete, we were all having an interesting exchange of ideas and it somehow escalated. I don’t like to see Christians fighting with each other, and I have been guilty of it with a few people here myself. Of all those, you continued to treat me with respect, so I hold no grudge. I just worry about you b/c you said you believed as we do for 35 years and now you feel enlightened by your new research. Everyone has done a good job of defending their position with scripture, but it’s how it’s interpreted that became the problem, and then it got personal. It becomes more of a case of being “right” than a “teachable moment.”
        I know I’m not that strong on the bible so I backed down/bowed out. Maybe it’s cuz I’m a girl, but you fellas are doing this:

        Hope you all find the humor intended. Now 1st WASH your hands and then shake hands. haha

  • Skywatcher

    kiwiwatcher
    18 March 2016 at 9:53 pm

    WARNING -WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING-WARNING
    Brothers and sisters – tis not worth tangling with Pete.

    Wow! Kiwiwatcher, if I had a church, you’d be welcomed to preach in my pulpit anytime! You most definitely pinned the tail on the donkey in this post!

    God bless you, for your faithfulness and stedfastness! You’re a great encouragement and inspiration to most of us on here! Keep up the great work!

    • Larry / vietnamvet1971

      I second that Motion………. and vote YEA.

  • CHAR

    Ron, you said: the sad part about Barbados is their records office actually burnt down way back and I cannot find out more about this. Too bad Obama didn’t know that when he moved on up to the White House or he would’ve said he was from Barbados instead of Hawaii.

  • Ron

    CHAR ROFL! isn’t that the truth I am surprised the lefties didn’t know that! ROFL!!!!

    God Bless You My Brother!

  • CHAR

    Yes, I LOVE the RR website. I believe that’s how I got led to this website. They are up on all the news, plus there’s Dear Esther and all the articles on the bottom. I just enjoy Monday mornings when it’s all new articles.

    • Pete

      I have found Rapture Ready to be moderated by boorish clueless people who like to bully everybody who doesn’t 100% agree with their views of the rapture. Unlike Geoffrey Grider, who apparently doesn’t fear confrontation or dialog, and allows even those like me who greatly oppose him to post freely. They flat-out lie about people.

      • DC

        This is where you get yourself into trouble, Pete. You could just say you disagree with a lot of RR. The rest of us like it and could be insulted by what you said. Can you see how just going off like that can offend people who like it? Moms say it’s now what you say but how you say it, but I say sometimes it IS what you say (the words) AND how you say it (the tone.)

        I go to RR daily & I’ve never seen any of the writers bully people. They have articles from people from all walks of life and different denominations. Plus, the news is straight-up links to the original articles with no commentary. Nearing Midnight and Dear Esther are must-reads for me every week. I don’t read the comments on the bulletin board very often and haven’t left any comments, so I don’t know how or if they restrict comments, so I can’t answer that one. It sounds like you had a bad experience there, and I’m sorry if you did, but please don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.

        • DC

          *not

  • CHAR

    Ron, I think some people just have an argumentative nature and Mr. Pete seems to be in that category. He says he’s not JW and all the other cults so I’m assuming he’s just wanting some attention. Maybe some of what we say to him will get to his heart, but don’t expect much.

    Skywatcher,DC and Geoffrey will agree that there’s a list of folks that come and go on here that are a pain in the patoot. We had one (remember, SW, his name was Emery). He was like a bad check that just kept coming back, so he’s finally gone on to other websites to wreak havoc. They come and they go, so we either need to ignore them and go on to other comments or keep arguing with them. I choose to ignore them when they choose to just keep arguing and not learning. Dust your feet off, Ron and go on. God Bless!

    • Pete

      Char, why don’t you bother to ask ME why I do what I do? Because it’s easy to judge each other and point fingers and talk about each other. Tougher to actually care enough to ask and actually engage in dialog. If you actually care about “reaching my heart” then why so much animosity to my challenges??? My challenges are a perfect opportunity to either solidify your position through study, or turn someone’s heart around. Not many people here are doing that, other than DC. Rather you choose to post condescending garbage, or accusations, or just complain that I am wrong without pointing out where.

      “when they choose to just keep arguing and not learning” – see the arrogance in your own statement? In your view, I am hear to learn, only. I have nothing worthy of contribution. Everybody here but me has the full truth and we are to sit at the feet of you, and Mr. Grider and just take it all in. Only dispie pre-tribbers are the Wise, the Sage, the Few Who really Get it. This is what I get all the time from people like you, even people in my own church. “I don’t have to answer your questions. Go study for yourself. Just accept what I say.”

      I am not a baby in the word, I have 40 years of Christianity under my belt, and by the way, I probably know your own dispensational doctrine better than you.

    • Ron

      Char I had almost 20 years on many nuc subs and have watched human behavior at close quarters and studied it, I have seen

      his type. When I posted Sky’s additional notes about The Fig Tree I knew I would get that very same response.

      I now asked and told him:

      You are either unteachable Pete, Arrogant, or you are not saved and Satan has convinced you that you are, because

      you seem to be blind to the Scriptures.

      How many times since you were saved you thought “You were going to Hell”

      And how long have you been saved?

      God Bless You Char you are right. However he should be careful about how he approaches us with that Doctrine.

      because of what

      Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

      And of course by him it probably doesn’t mean what it says at all and give us “his enlightened version”

      A True Christian who is in error The Holy Spirit will convict him of their errors, but he is in opposition to the Truth

      is he not? God Bless You!

      • Pete

        Blah blah blah, lots of insults behind my back, but still no response to simple questions like “WHERE does Joel or Hosea actually say that the fig tree represents the NATION of Israel?” And no response to the FACT that the words clearly and explicitly STATE that Israels vines and fig trees have been stripped bare. No response to what the VINE is of course. And no response to the FACT that Hosea clearly is talking about the FATHERS not the nation of Israel in his comparisons, and the early FIGS of the tree, not the tree itself.

        But none of this matters to you. Who cares what the Bible actually SAYS? You would rather believe your SYSTEM than the Bible itself. Go ahead if you want, but stop your hateful comments against people who would rather prove the words of God.

    • Skywatcher

      Yes, Char and all, the flesh nature sometimes rears its ugly head, and we all have one. However, I hate to see it come to an ugly head like this. If anybody can argue well, that would be me! Some people have sat under very excellent and well educated pastors, while others have sat under erroneous pastors for a period of time. Others glean their theology from online, a bit here, and a bit there; others are from cults and sects, and they come in with a different flavor, usually nasty and arrogant right from the start.

      I have learned that humans can be very cruel and unkind to each other, especially when they are not in complete agreement. Pete may be in agreement with us on many other things, such as Jesus is the only way to Heaven, etc., but I wonder how correct we are to “write off” some people who show no inclination to belonging to a cult or a subversive group? Sometimes, when we pause long enough to listen, we can hear the Holy Spirit say, “Shake the dust from off your sandals and walk away now. Don’t look back! Don’t go back, but keep your focus upon the Word.”

      I’ve spent ALL afternoon, defending myself to my young pastor who has implied I’m everything from a liar to a murderer and my head is pounding. Maybe, having a handful of judgmental people in yet again, another Baptist church see me as such, has caused me to see just how easily it can be done to others when not warranted.

      If Pete had denied that Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God, then we can take serious offense. When his idea of how eschatology doesn’t line up with mine or ours, we all should be able to agree to disagree and move on. If I knew Pete in person, I’d probably love his other qualities and giftings, agreeing that we do not see eye-to-eye on all things eschatalogical, nor is it EVER possible to do so. There are so many unknowns and too many variables. This is in no way implying that I’m changing my Pre-tribulation stance re: the Rapture, not at all!

      Having “known” most of you folks for as long as I have, I’m sure you can agree with me. If everybody was in agreement with Pilate when he said, “I find no fault in this man”, we would not be privy to salvation today! Caiaphas didnn’t agree with him! Each person has their place in the body, even when in disagreement. One may be a super loving heart, and someone else can be a really rotten and gastric stomach, and I’m NOT referring to Pete! Y’all know who! However, we all have a role to play in the body.

      I still have more comments to read and to catch up on, but, can we all put our knives and guns down and go back to the sandbox and continue playing…pretending we’re all in our right minds? 🙂

      Some may see this as an about-face; I prefer to see it as being a change of heart, and extending mercy and grace. You all are such sweet and caring people, burning with a passion for God’s Word, which is truth. I can understand how and why we get our spiritual knickers in a knot when we sense we are being misunderstood or taken out of context; that’s normal, and on some level, I believe it is healthy!

      It keeps us on our toes and spiritually strengthened, for when the real enemy mistakenly drops by into our camp. And when I say “our camp”, I’m NOT referring to this blog site! This is NOT our camp; this is merely a place where we can exchange thoughts and ideas. Sometimes, I’m just not that good at it, and people tend to get hurt. Other times, I mean to whip them into shape because they ARE just so out of line.

      To be fair, Pete has said some things that don’t align with Scripture, that could be put to rest with others, and he believes we’re out of whack. Maybe we’re all out of whack sometimes, and God just lovingly looks down upon us, shaking His head saying, “My dear, dear children! They suffer for lack of knowledge and they hurt each other for lack of wisdom.” I also believe if we were in the same room together, we’d be laughing right now!

      Pete or anyone else, if I have said anything to you this week that upset or offended you, I’m truly sorry. No! There are no smart remarks forthcoming! 🙂 As God continues to reveal more prophetic things, we will ALL understand more, and what we have said this past week won’t amount to a hill of beans anyway!

      In time, Christ will work all things out for His glory and His honor; He will do all things as He sees fit, and as they fit into HIS prophetic schedule. In the meantime, we are to win souls for Jesus, help out the downtrodden, feed the poor, and to be examples of God’s love and mercy! Now watch…next week the DD will be back to make me eat those words! :)o

      Having said that, I can assuredly tell you what is next in my prophetic calendar! Yes-siree Bubba’s and Bessa’s, I can! I see a nice wedge of blueberry pie headed in my direction! I wish you were all here to share the rest of the pie with me! It’s future doesn’t look that promising! 🙂

      God bless you ALL, with loving care and tender mercies…one toward another!
      Sky

      • Pete

        Skywatcher, thank you, all is well and I apologize if I said anything that was offensive to you as well. I know I got snippity with Ron and perhaps some others and I admit that the flesh is weak, that is certainly true.

        Dee, I certainly understand that people won’t like my opinion about Rapture Ready. I am merely giving my opinion having spent considerable time on that message board over the years and directly eperiencing it. As long as you agree with them they are nice as pie. Step outside of that, and you are not only castigated, you are banned and then they talk about you after you leave. Just my experience.

        I don’t tolerate people like Kiwiwatcher for long. Start twisting my words, the conversation is over. I don’t need someone deliberately twisting my words then talking down to me like I am a child.

        DC, “I just worry about you b/c you said you believed as we do for 35 years and now you feel enlightened by your new research. ”

        There are very good reasons for what I believe, I have spent a long time working on it, just like everybody else. I don’t have everything figured out. I didn’t just stumble into it. I’m not a kid in the candy store, all excited because I have some interesting thing to share. The main reason I walked away from dispensationalism (and pre-trib/pre-mill) is that nobody bothered to really show me the scripture, and I never bothered to ask for many years. When I started asking questions I was told to go figure it out for myself, basically. And many of the conclusions I have come to are the result of many years of pondering, praying, talking to people, reading the Bible and reading other commentary. I don’t need everyone to bow down and worship me and accept my words. But I certainly don’t need condescending “the Lord rebuke thee” crap either. These are NOT salvation issues here, these are very difficult subjects. Let’s be a little more patient.

        • Ron

          Pete here you go yet again “But I certainly don’t need condescending “the Lord rebuke thee” crap either.”

          Crap is it? Really? I just turned the argument over to the Lord and if He is Rebuking You then don’t blame me.

          I have been under the Lord’s Rebuke many times myself and it is not pleasant, but I have conformed to The Lord’s

          Desires for me on what it was, I didn’t seek to continue in rebellion.

          And reading Sister DC’s comment makes me alarmed as well

          DC, “I just worry about you b/c you said you believed as we do for 35 years and now you feel enlightened by your new research. ”

          I will say this much since you don’t believe in much God Has revealed to us such as DC, Sky, Kiwi, Char, and

          the like and have this “new revelation” I am worried that maybe you are not saved, or have you always been

          %100 sure you were?

          I really really hope you are saved.

          And as far as The Lord Rebuke Thee Goes, that is one thing none of us can do as Christians, is force The Lord to do

          that to another that much I hope you realize.

          • Ron

            Pete about the above comment…

            And as far as The Lord Rebuke Thee Goes, that is one thing none of us can do as Christians, is force The Lord to do

            that to another that much I hope you realize. The Lord will only give a rebuke if you are worthy of it.

          • Pete

            Ron, this isn’t “new revelation” by any stretch. If any doctrine is new, it’s your modern dispensational doctrine.

            There is not a single thing I have said yet that should cause anyone to question my salvation. I certainly don’t question it.

          • kiwiwatcher

            Pete – my wonderful talent is God given. Bless you for the recognition my friend. The essence of the story was to provide a snapshot of what can be achieved with the art of cherry-picking words/sentences. Also to show how vastly contrasting some statements are – complete opposites on occasion.

            You constantly claim to be literal reading of Scriptures, and in context, but yet you stray so far from your premise. Methinks thou protest too much.

            Wondered if you were born-again in the church and just gently slid into the ‘new you’, or born-again with your new found beliefs, or still seeking? But never received a reply from you when it was first mentioned so can’t be such a big deal to you.

            You say in regard to dispensational truths – perhaps people “were taught these things but never shown proof.”
            “For we walk by faith, not by sight:” 2 Corinthians 5:7 And that is the major difference. By faith Enoch was translated and so will I.

            “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Matthew 24:21
            According to you – this occurred about 70AD or during the 40 years prior, so we would be looking for events that made the Egyptian plagues appear as a low key news story.

            The Great Chilean Earthquake of 1960 registered 9.5, and 2 million people were homeless due to the destruction.
            According to your scripture reading – a larger one occurred about 70AD.

            An earthquake in Shaanxi during 1556, China, devastated an area of 520 miles. It was felt in 97 countries; and resulted in more than 20 meters deep crevices and landslides. The death toll was 830,000, which was over 60% of the region’s population. Its magnitude was only 8.0 on the Richter scale.
            According to your scripture readings – a deadlier earthquake occurred about 70AD.

            “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)” Matthew 24:15
            Your theory my friend is basically that the continual sacrifices made at the temple as offerings to atone for sin are an “abomination of desolation” due to Jesus dying on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice.

            What is obvious, is the way you twist the Scriptures. It’s one bad habit that’s holding you back. Matthew says ‘the abomination’ with definite article declaring an event, a happening. However, to fit your preterist theory – you have changed the Word of God to create the plural “the apostate Jews were already committing ABOMINATIONS in the temple”

            Again, you launch yourself in taking verses of Scripture out of context to support your theory.(Matthew 23:36) Jesus was in the Temple courtyard and had just been announcing seven woes upon the scribes and pharisees for their rejection of Him. “Verily I say unto you, All these things will come upon this generation.” (note the pharisee sect disappeared woefully with the temple destruction.)
            Then two verses later Jesus turns to speak seven words to male members of the public representing the Jewish nation. Matthew 23:38: “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
            Jesus is on the temple Mount for the last time and says YOUR temple will be left unto you empty and ineffective. The point is – it is not God’s Temple any more, but it is now the Jewish temple, without Spiritual significance whatsoever.

            Your third supporting verse comes after Jesus left the temple Mount (23 March – springtime) went across the small valley and up onto the tree laden Mount of Olives. “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled.” Matthew 24:34. According to you – THIS GENERATION – refers to the people Jesus was speaking with. However, the preceding verse states “when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS” – the generation refers to a group of Jewish people who see all the predictions of Jesus. This includes “the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.” Matthew 24:29 also Revelation 6:12. Also the same generation would get to see “the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven….” Matthew 24:29.

            Unfortunately, for you my friend – that generation of 33AD disciples etc DID NOT see those events occur, nor did they see “great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

            When the disciples asked Jesus originally in Matthew 24:3 Jesus replies with a prophetic message answering all three questions by intertwining the three replies into a dual prophecy. Matthew 24:15 clearly refers to a time in the future spoken of by Daniel, while Luke writes the same passage with additional material 21:20-24 about the Jewish war 66-70 and up to 1948.
            The fig tree is Israel, while in Luke 21:29 “and all the trees’ relates to other nations/religions. “When THEY now shoot forth ye see and know of own selves that summer is now nigh at hand” Matthew 24:32 says “….When ITS branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near.” Matthew 24:34 “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

            My belief is that Israel is represented by the fig tree. After Jesus triumphal entry to Jerusalem, he sought fruit from the out-of-season fig tree and cursed it for having none (Mark 11:12-14) He did not curse the fig tree because he truly expected to find fruit on it. Rather, he used the barren fig tree to prophesy about the spiritual fate of the Jews and the physical fate of the Holy Land. “Let no one eat fruit from you until the age [eis ton aiona].” The fig tree incident was designed to show that the Jews would not produce spiritual fruit until the Messiah comes to usher in the kingdom of God upon the earth.

            The fig leaves to hide the nakedness of Adam and Eve were a foreshadow of the Jewish covenant, that would offer sacrifices for the atonement of sin. In the garden of Eden, God soon shed blood by killing animals for skins to provide Adam and Eve with leather and fur outfits. Israel will be established as a nation, about the same time as other nations/religions in the region, and while Israel is young and tender, Judaism will be revived, but no converts will be won for Christ, as the tree will not bear fruit. THIS GENERATION of Jews will not pass away, till ALL these predictions come to pass. ………the Sanhedrin offered a grain sacrifice last week.

            Meanwhile, your theory also includes Jesus disobeying His own commands. If the sacrifices in the temple are “abomination of desolation” and are an indication that ye should be fleeing to the mountains – why was Jesus not leading by example. Jesus was on earth for 40 days following His resurrection, therefore at least 40 sacrifices were offered up by the priests. However, the Bible makes no mention of Jesus having an adverse reaction, therefore it can be accepted that sacrifices are NOT an abomination. A massive disappointment yes, but not an abomination. Earlier Jesus had declared the temple their own house, so animal sacrifices would have little effect.

            The Greek ‘abomination of desolations’ is a direct reference from the Hebrew in Daniel 9:27. “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,…..” Daniel wrote chapter nine in 538BC, in his 67th year of Babylonian captivity and towards the end of the chapter gives a brief over-view of Jewish history. Long story short – Greek tyrant ruler Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167BC set a statue of Zeus modeled on himself in the Temple above the altar while a pig was sacrificed on the altar. While this clearly is an abomination of desolation, the House of God was cleansed and Jesus was content to spend time there during his ministry nearly 200 years later. Also Antiochus never confirmed a covenant for seven years so this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in its entirety.

            “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” Matthew 24:16
            Writings related to Eusebius and Josephus have been included in my bookcase for nigh on 35 years. Josephus was the Roman propagandist and often referred to as the great exaggerator. Both terms will be foreign to the keyboard preterist scholar. Josephus never mentioned early Christians departing for Pella. Eusebius wrote in 325AD of “The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. According to Eusebius they did not leave Jerusalem as directed by Luke 21:20 when the city was surrounded or due to an ‘abomination of desolation’ but after being warned by an angel. Many highly qualified literacy scholars believe Eusebius was writing many years later with poetic license due to the struggle with competing ‘christian sects,’ including the recent adoption by Emperor Constantine of a new state religion.

            The ruins of Pella lie about 55 miles north-east of Jerusalem, about three days walking journey, in a fertile valley adjacent to a ford of the Jordan river, about 2 ft above sea-level – “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” An aside – Petra is 3600ft above sea-level.

            While the “flight to Pella” makes for a wonderful tradition – the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled completely.
            And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

            11 “He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

            12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

            13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

            14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

            15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

            16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

            17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” Matthew 13: 10-17

        • kiwiwatcher

          Pete my friend. When you call my name I shall be there. No one has to twist your words as you are a masterclass. If it walks like a duck, talks like duck……I call it a duck, even if some ducks find it offensive in being exposed.

          A story if I may. There once was gentleman who began to preach another gospel. Apparently this born-again christian had been sitting in church for about 35 years, until giving up his belief in dispensationalism (and pre-trib/pre-mill) because “nobody bothered to really show me the scripture, and I never bothered to ask for many years.” Obviously a man in a lax state.
          Nevertheless, the gentleman embarked on journey of discovery “of many years of pondering, praying, talking to people, reading the Bible and reading other commentary.” Although a significant portion of the commentary was web based, our born-again christian declared “I use the King James 100% of the time.”
          At no stage did the born-again christian declare the moment when the Holy Spirit opened his eyes to his new found theology. When the man who watches the sky asked for advice, the studious christian fired back “Attack the ideas, not the people, that’s my philosophy.”  

          Apparently his method of ‘preaching’ was based on either produce the goods to dispel his theory or join his sect. “My challenges are a perfect opportunity to either solidify your position through study, or turn someone’s heart around,” he said to a sister in Christ.
          However, when his Enoch yarn was shoot down in flames with readings from God’s Word he said “That’s just plain bad logic.”

          In his new world, the deep Spiritual understanding of God’s Almighty Power was now replaced with human rationalization.  “I fail to see” he said in desperation. “I DON’T HAVE EVERYTHING FIGURED OUT!.”

          In a moment of despair his mind totally flipped to the other side. “Personally I get frustrated when I spend a lot of time carefully laying out MY ARGUMENTS only to be told that I am just wrong.”

          “Most of what I write has 100% scriptural support,” he claimed. But when asked to support his theory of Matthew 24 occurring in 70AD he fell silent.

          You may have recogized the above sad tale.

          However, To support your theory my friend, please provide how Matthew 24:15 was fulfilled.
          “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)”

          Verse 16: Where did the Born-Again Christians flee to when “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” which is linked to the previous verse.

          Can you provide the events that occurred that have never happened prior to 70AD or thereabouts, and have never tragically happened after 70AD? Greater than the Egyptian plagues. So looking forward to your report on this.
          Verse 21 – “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

          If you can not complete the above simple task, (should take small time – not five years) then you are a false teacher of the highest order.

          “For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned” Matthew 12:37

          A multitude of prayers for our friend before its too late. Blessings.

          • Pete

            Kiwiwatcher, I will say that you have a wonderful talent for picking and choosing words and putting a tale together. That’s what makes you such a good dispensationalist. Dispies have perfected the art of telling wonderful stories from inference and assumption based on careful choosing of words.

            //“Most of what I write has 100% scriptural support,” he claimed. But when asked to support his theory of Matthew 24 occurring in 70AD he fell silent.//

            When was I asked this? This post has over 330 replies.

            //However, To support your theory my friend, please provide how Matthew 24:15 was fulfilled.
            “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place//

            First of all, since Jesus was speaking directly TO His disciples standing in front of Him, and He was speaking about the second temple sitting right in front of them, and He said “When YE therefore shall see…” then He is obviously speaking about events that those people who sat in front of Him, would see. I don’t have to prove anything. The text speaks for itself. That is not conjecture, or inference. It just is what it is, period. I read the Bible literally and in context. You should try it.

            Now…since none of us was there to watch the Old Covenant age end, and the actual end of the age is not written in the pages of holy writ, we rely on our own interpretations and the historical record. Admittedly this is not the inspired word of God, and I am a human being. But I will attempt to appease you by answering.

            I see the abomination as follows…first, the apostate Jews were already committing abominations in the temple by “making it a den of thieves” and Christ had to twice cleanse the temple. This is borne out by the description of apostate Israel in Revelation 17, the woman clothed in the colors of the priesthood, committing “abominations and filthiness” with the Gentiles (Romans). I believe that these practices continued to get worse and worse after Jesus ascended.

            We know the abomination had to occur prior to the temple’s desolation which occurred in AD70. Christ foretold this desolation in Matthew 23:38: “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” We know from history that the temple Christ spoke of, as He stood in front of it, was destroyed in AD70. Some people believe the Romans erected a false god in the temple prior to destroying it, I don’t happen to think that. I think the reference to Daniel was metaphor describing what apostate Israel had done to the temple by the time the Romans arrived. The Jews were sacrificing animals upon the altar AFTER Jesus, the perfect Lamb of God, had been slain thereby ending those sacrifices. So, all animal sacrifices would become abominations to God. If the Jews ever build a third temple and start doing this again, they will be entering into that abomination again. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. They would be committing the same atrocities described in Isaiah 66:3: “He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol.”

            These abominations did, indeed, cause desolation. Just as Jesus foretold would happen to THAT generation (Mat 23:36, Mat 24:34).

            //Verse 16: Where did the Born-Again Christians flee to when “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” which is linked to the previous verse.//

            Pella. Also the mountains surrounding Judea, since that’s what Jesus commanded. I will leave you to go look up the sources of this, they are everywhere. Jesus clearly foretold the destruction of the second temple, and that did actually happen just as Jesus said it would. Do your homework like a good dispensationalist and just look up what Josephus and Eusebius wrote.

            //Can you provide the events that occurred that have never happened prior to 70AD or thereabouts, and have never tragically happened after 70AD? //

            I assume you mean all of the plagues. The answer is no, not at this time. Can you please prove to me your future events in detail? I am most curious how a mere man like yourself, who is not God, can PROVE that you know 100% how these “future things” that have never happened, are going to happen. For example, what is the abomination of desolation, in your view? I want proof. Not conjecture.

            //A multitude of prayers for our friend before its too late.//

            Too late for what? What are you praying for?

          • Ron

            Kiwi See what this reminds you of….

            John 9:1-41 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not. They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind. And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes. Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see. Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet. But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight. And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see? His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him. Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses’ disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. The man answered and said

            unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine

            eyes. Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will,

            him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born

            blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast

            altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said,

            Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he

            that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. And Jesus said, For judgment I

            am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And

            some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said

            unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

          • Pete

            Kiwiwatcher, here’s one portion of your post you actually got kind of right:

            //“nobody bothered to really show me the scripture, and I never bothered to ask for many years.” Obviously a man in a lax state.//

            Yes, I absolutely was in a lax state. Just like many people, I accepted at face value what I was taught by teachers, parents, pastors, books, etc without really testing these things. But one day I actually began to ask questions and study things for myself.

            The reason I brought this up is that I KNOW there are others out there, maybe even those who read these comments, who have had the same experience. Maybe they too grew up in a Christian family, or at least were saved a long time ago. They were taught these things but never shown proof. “There is a gap between week 69 and week 70 of Daniel,” I was told, over and over. “That’s the coming 7 year Great Tribulation.” Lazily, I accepted this. But I became convicted about these things and decided to study to show MYSELF approved unto God.

            Hope this helps give a little color to the background of what I have said.

            //Although a significant portion of the commentary was web based, our born-again christian declared “I use the King James 100% of the time.”//

            My comment about the King James was in response to you asking me “What Bible do you briefly scan? A modern version??” Once again, you do a fine job of deliberately ripping my words out of context.

            Never once did I claim I use only the Bible to derive all of my conclusions. I said I talk to people, read commentaries, read the Bible among other things.

            And not that you asked or even care: I don’t know where I stated that a significant portion of the commentary was web based. Perhaps in your opinion some of my facts are incorrect about the population of Jews in the 1st century. If you must know, the largest portion of commentary that actually contributed to my change of mind was paperback book based, and #2 was asking my dispensational mentors questions that they had no answer for….I then went to my (king james) Bible and found the answer there. And it was a different answer. FYI I spend 95% of my web-based research time listening to people with whom I do not agree.

          • Pete

            Kiwi, you talk in circles. First you chastised me for being in a “lax state” as a Christian because as I admitted, “nobody bothered to really show me the [dispensational doctrine] scripture, and I never bothered to ask for many years”.

            Then I stated that perhaps others were like me, never bothering to really study and find Biblical support and proof for dispensational doctrine. I said “perhaps people were taught these things but never shown proof.” To which you retort: //“For we walk by faith, not by sight:” 2 Corinthians 5:7 And that is the major difference.//
            So…in your eyes I SHOULD have been accepted dispenational doctrine that was spoon-fed to me? And NOT asked for scriptural proof? Was that not being “lax”?

            LOL…do you have ANY idea what you are talking about?

            // Unfortunately, for you my friend – that generation of 33AD disciples etc DID NOT see those events occur, nor did they see “great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”//

            Jesus said they would see it, so therefore they did. Period. End of story.

            We shouldn’t let our interpretation of difficult passages with hyperbolic Jewish text and apocalyptic language, colored by our 21st century Western bias, to override clear, plain language like “shortly come to pass” and “this generation.”

            You can keep believing your dispie godfathers who say the death of Jesus was a backup plan God used when the Jews thwarted His real plan. Or that “shortly come to pass” in Rev 1:1 is just God using gobbledygook, meaningless words. Or that Jesus didn’t really mean what He said the numerous times He told His disciples THEY would see His kingdom come. I will just accept Jesus at His word.

          • Kiwiwatcher

            Pete – as expected. You had nothing to add, especially regarding the most important concern – how or whether you are truly born-again. For everyone – it is a wonderful experience.

            Unfortunately any little remaining credibility of yours just went out the window. Yesterday, I attended home church, and the topic was …. (surprise surprise) dealing with people who claim to being Born-Again but are false conversions. Obviously, they deceive and have false teachings, they also steal – steal one’s time.

            Pete, you are highly deceptive, have an alternative message, and consume valuable time.
            To one who watches the sky, when he asked what Bible you use? you replied – “I usually read the King James.”

            To me you said “I use the King James 100% of the time.” NOTE – both can not be true Pete.
            Your puffed-up statement to a sister included “I am not a baby in the word, I have 40 years of Christianity under my belt, and by the way, I probably know your own dispensational doctrine better than you.”

            Then you claim “nobody bothered to really show me the scripture, and I never bothered to ask for many years.”

            Utter fiddlesticks!!! No-one or no church, could ever teach ‘rightly dividing the Word of truth’ to the standard you claim, without Spiritual proofs. What utter nonsense!! Not even slightly believable.

            You said “Attack the ideas, not the people, that’s my philosophy.” But as a pattern – you ALWAYS launch an attack on the messenger. Notice how your words and actions are contrasting. No Born-Again Christian EVER acts in such a manner. Fruits of the Spirit are clearly manifest.

            Thank you Pete for allowing me to study the Scriptures on a number of topics. I learned a lot. Blessings and I pray that you receive guidance, as this is the last of me.

            “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.” Proverbs 26:4

          • Pete

            Kiwi writes:

            //To one who watches the sky, when he asked what Bible you use? you replied – “I usually read the King James.” To me you said “I use the King James 100% of the time.” NOTE – both can not be true Pete.//

            Er, yes they can, and they are. I usually READ the King James – this is true, I sometimes compare other versions when I read. But when I argue with people, prove scripture, quote scripture, I always USE the King James, 100% of the time. That’s why I used the word “USE” with you and “READ” with the other person. Sorry, you fail again.

            //Utter fiddlesticks!!! No-one or no church, could ever teach ‘rightly dividing the Word of truth’ to the standard you claim, without Spiritual proofs. What utter nonsense!! Not even slightly believable.//

            I realize you are getting frustrated because no matter how hard you try to twist my words, I always prove you wrong with an answer. That’s why you apparently think it’s worth your time to retread the discussions, picking out my phrases and misrepresenting them, using them out of context, assuming things into them. Maybe your goal should change from attempting to discredit me, and instead to lift me up? Not likely to happen I suppose.

            All of what I said is 100% true. And you will see that if you just take a little bit of time to read, understand and THINK:

            I have indeed been a Christian since around age 5. I am now 45. That’s 40 years. That’s a fact. Not puffery.
            I am not a baby in the word. Do I have more to learn? Of course, but I am not in the milk anymore. That’s a fact. Not puffery.
            I told someone that I “probably know your own dispensational doctrine better than you”. This of course might not be true, but that is why I used the word “probably” as a qualifier. Do you know what “probably” means? (By the way based on my history over the last 20 years of studying this, I am most likely correct. Sadly, I probably do know it better than most people, because most people never really study this doctrine for themselves, and even the preachers don’t really know it.

            //No-one or no church, could ever teach ‘rightly dividing the Word of truth’ to the standard you claim, without Spiritual proofs. //

            What in blazes is this nonsense? Of course they can, and they did. For example, they told me there is a gap between Daniels’ 69th and 70th week. Never proved it and I never asked. In fact since I WOKE UP TO THE TRUTH, I have asked probably 30 people to prove it, and 1 of them has even TRIED to answer. One out of 30. Not a good record.

            //you ALWAYS launch an attack on the messenger//

            No, I always answer back liars. Like you. Anyone can go read my threads and note that I pick apart comments and belief systems. Not the people themselves. I have never questioned anyone’s salvation, unlike some people do when they run out of ammunition.

            //this is the last of me.//

            Nothing would make me happier! Please go away.

          • Pete

            I would also like to point out to anyone still reading this, that Kiwiwatcher and others spend an inordinate amount of time looking for ways to “one up” others…meanwhile, they have nothing but yeas and amens, and “Maranathas” and “praise be unto Jesus” for what Geoffrey Grider says in this very post….a bunch of foolish speculation and scripture twisting, not to mention totally ANTI biblical messages. Geoffrey WANTS to see the world go down in flames…Geoffrey cannot WAIT to watch as turmoil erupts across the globe.

            Meanwhile Geoffrey acts like he has some special insight into the future like some quasi-Christian fortune-teller. But Geoffrey does not know who will be elected. Geoffrey does not know what this election will mean. Geoffrey does not know that Mr. Trump will usher in the antichrist or the second coming, and Geoffrey does not know how “soon” the rapture is.

            In fact I can almost guarantee that we will still be here, 5 years from now, listening to yet another boring tirade from the likes of him, still proclaiming “Jesus is coming soon, we swear it this time!” because he will once again be wrong, and once again will not admit he was wrong and repent from his foolish speculation. Apparently it’s perfectly fine to spend all day predicting the future and using the Bible to justify this foolishness, never admitting when you are wrong, but whoa be unto the person who dares to challenge these self-proclaimed “watchers” in any way, they must not really be SAVED, for goodness sake.

    • Ron

      Char you what comes to mind is that someone on this blog wants to do this……

      Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

      Yet I am accused of having the only doctrine when in fact I agree with you, DC, Sky, Kiwi, Geoffrey, and some others.

      Many of whom have studied under very learned men of God and they are just like yourself as well as the others I mentioned

      in this respect…..

      2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

  • CHAR

    Pete, actually I wasn’t commenting to you because, like I said, we need to dust our feet off and go on to others that actually want to learn and have fellowship one with another on this website. I feel sorry for you because you are a mean, cold spirited, person who needs the Lord to soften your heart so that you are not so belligerent and anti-scriptural. Many people on here have been very patient with you, but it was on deaf ears. You need to go elsewhere and start your campaign of hatred. I sure hope you treat your wife (if you are so lucky to have one) with more respect than you do the born again believers on this website. God will deal with you very soon! I pray that your miserable attitude will be replaced with a sweet Spirit or you’re doomed! I suppose by my commenting to you, it has just added fuel to your bitter fire and I will be hearing from you soon, but you won’t be hearing from me again. (Do you hear my feet getting dusted off).

    • Pete

      Char, please point out where I have posted anything resembling “hate.”

      • Pistol Peter

        Whale, hello thar, Pete! You’ve been havin’ quite the time on ‘ere, havint ya! The brethren have been very accommodatin’ to yer slanders and slurs, even tryin’ to get ya to see where ya’s been errin’, but ya won’t humble yerself and listen. I feel real bad fer ya, but ya know, as long as yer goin’ to make yerself appear as the hind end of a Jersey heifer headin’ north, ya aint goin’ to make no ground. These people know what they’re talkiin’ about, and they proved it over and over again, but ya just won’t listen. It must be fun (sarcasm) to be one of your “dispie” friends! Do they all scatter when they see ya comin’?

        Give it up, get back to the books, and get yer theology straight! I find it pretty dumb for anyone to believe they are the only one that’s right, when very well educated people, better’n myself, spent their whole life time workin’ this stuff through and reaching a logical conclusion that works. What’s the matter with ya, boy? Got spiritual mental block or somethin’? Maybe a good dose of Epsom salts will break it up for ye. Is pride and obstinacy gettin’ in the way of yer reasonin’ ability? If so, pray on it! God aint through with ya yet; He can fix what’s broken and make you into a beautiful vessel that He can be proud of! I’m not tryin’ to be unkind or abusive to ya; I only stopped to let ya know that I truly care, and that ya don’t need to be goin’ on like this. Why thar’s enough fools and idiots in the White House, we don’t need any more among the general population!

        • Pete

          LOL. You guys are only going to keep losing people. Already your pre-trib brand of modern dispensationalism is starting to shed followers, the more you keep making predictions that fail. Ask Mr. Hal Lindsey how right he has been for 50 years. In another decade or so, long after 2018 or 2028 or whatever magical year has come and gone, and no rapture has taken place, and Israel continues to just be another country on the planet…your little “fig tree” theory is going to start looking a little limp, I am afraid. Unless of course you all decide that 1948 was NOT the magical year of the fig tree.

          I am hopeful that American Christians will finally wake up and get back to what Christianity used to be: preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and making disciples of all nations.

          American Christians need to realize a couple of things first. #1 – God might leave us here for a very long time, and we might have to suffer. People have suffered throughout history, we are nothing special in that regard. #2 – we are not special in any regard, we are not the Last Generation in the Universe. And #3 – they need to understand that the modern dispie movement, born in the 1800s and popularized as WW1 and WW2 came to be – has been putting the church to sleep for over 100 years.

          Rather than work for the glory of Christ’s kingdom, your teaching says we are to hide in our shelters and wait for the rapture – oh wait – we are actually supposed to HOPE things go downhill, according to Mr. Grider here. Let’s get Trump elected to usher in God’s judgment! Yay! What’s Geoffrey care, he’s gonna be outta here anyway, partying it up and watching from heaven’s balcony. How apostolic of him. How much like Paul Geoffrey is. Not.

          No sir, I am most definitely NOT the only one that’s right….there are many, many more people (thank God) who have rejected the Darbyism of the 19th century and are looking to the future with hope and optimism, because they realize that JESUS CHRIST LIVES and JESUS is on the throne, not Satan.

        • Ron

          Pistol Peter said….
          Pistol Peter wrote…..(Quote):
          I find it pretty dumb for anyone to believe they are the only one that’s right, when very well educated people, better’n myself, spent their whole life time workin’ this stuff through and reaching a logical conclusion that works. (UnQuote)

          Well Pete that was pretty stupid to write that so as to justify you are right claiming you are very well educated
          person better than everyone else spending your whole life workin’ this stuff through and reaching a logical conclusion that works.

          I have never made a claim ever to be more educated than anyone, are you now God and know what Geoffrey, Sky, DC,
          Kiwi, Char have for actual education?????????

          Your 40 years don’t mean much to me, because from what you have written you are in Rebellion to God.

          You are Just Like Cain, God told him what he had to do and he decided offering up his fruit and vegatables for

          an acceptable sacrifice. He kept on doing it that way until he saw his brother Abel whose sacrifice was

          accepted by God and killed him out of Jealousy.

          “You reached” a logical conclusion that works. If you had God’s Holy Spirit our word’s which God has given

          to us, would stand out to you and you would see that our doctrine is true.

          1.Tell Us Pete, Pistol Peter, TorchbearerforJesus how you came to be saved, 2.and How many times since you were

          saved you thought you were going to Hell. Everybody who comes to the Lord and has Jesus Christ in their heart has a

          Testimony about how they got saved. And tell us some sins where the Lord Chastised You to get you to stop.

          Keep this in mind Pete, anyone left behind when The Rapture happens did not know The Lord.

          Since you insist on doing this I will expose you….

          Geoffrey wrote “Why are you using two different names? From your one IP address I see “TorchbearerforJesus” as well as “Pistol Peter”. Are you trolling? You have been warned.

          TORCHBEARERFORJESUS AND PISTOL PETER ARE BOTH “PETE” Brothers and Sisters

    • Ron

      Char I saw that coming after you posted it, it shows in fact How Blinded His Mind is By Satan.

      God Bless You Char!

  • CHAR

    Ron, God bless you too in your endeavors to get through to this stiff necked guy. It’s a shame that he doesn’t sit down and actually read these posts that ALL of us are in one accord to try to get him to see the Way and that we are all concerned about his salvation, but he’s just too close minded to get it, so there’s nothing more any of us can do for him. You all have worked very diligently to get him to see the true scriptures, but there we all are dusting our feet off and going on. Sad, but true!

    • Pete

      Char, still waiting on where I was “hateful.” And I have read every one of these posts, I have been involved in these threads since the beginning. And I am saved just like you. Where we stand on whether Enoch died or not, and where we stand on a rapture is not a salvation issue.

  • David Kaus

    1 John 2:19

    “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

  • Skywatcher

    Good morning, Edwitness! Thank you, for that very enlightening and much needed post! YES! I read Tom’s accounts and his exciting discoveries are “out of this world”! God has most definitely raised him up for these last days! For you saints who do NOT have his books, especially “Exo-Vaticana”, you’re missing out on some of the most exciting Biblical prophecy coverage to date! The findings of Tom Horn and Cris Putnam and others are totally unimaginable and beyond our comprehension! God has providentially led them to the right places to ferret out this very vital information! As I’ve said before, their findings connect “dots” in Scripture that I have never ever thought of on my own or knew that they existed! You’ll be glad beyond belief if you purchase this very affordable book off Amazon or their own website.

    I’ve not read “Zenith 2016”, but they mention the importance/significance of the Aztec calendar in Exo-Vaticana. I have his book, “Petrus Romanus” and have not yet had a chance to read it. If it’s anything like Exo-Vaticana, I’ll be kicking myself for not reading it sooner! I got them both at the same time, about two years ago. As you can imagine, I have so much excellent reading material, and I don’t get to it because I spend toooooo much time on here! 🙂 Currently, I’m still reading “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” again. I’m drawing strength from this book in case we face such challenges in our near future, if Jesus doesn’t come as soon as we hope and anticipate.

    I love Tom’s demeanor, as he is very humble and as a former pastor, knows how to equate his findings with the Scriptures. He’s a Noah and he’s an ambassador for Christ at the same time! Both of these folk warned of impending danger and doom; Christ went a step further and promised a better time to come! Tom does just that!

    I cannot get SkywatchTV here; you’d think as Skywatcher, I’d be the first to see this! Ha haa! I’ll have to look for it online!

    Thank you, Bro, for sharing this with us! God bless you abundantly today, with peace, grace, and an acute sense of His abiding Presence! Maranatha!

    • Skywatcher

      Edwitness, I forgot to mention…YES! This is truly going to be a mighty interesting and exciting year! It will be full of mystery and intrigue and challenges we’ve never had before on this continent!!! We are in Christ; nothing can ever hurt Him again, and that’s plenty good enough for me! 🙂

    • Skywatcher

      I found SkywatchTV online! I’ll be listening in T-20 seconds!

  • Ron

    I thought you all might really like this one given the fact how many times I passed by it without too much thought and Brother Jack Kelly really brought it home on this one….

    THE STRANGEST MIRACLE AT THE POOL OF THE CRIPPLED MAN

    A Bible Study by Jack Kelley
    The first three Gospels are so much alike that people accuse Matthew and Luke of borrowing heavily from Mark, who supposedly wrote His gospel first. John’s gospel is different from all of them.
    None of the Gospel writers wrote strictly historical accounts. But among them, John seems least interested in preserving the chronology of events, placing them more to contrast with one another than to preserve their order. A good example is John 2 where the water into wine miracle is followed by the cleansing of the Temple. The former took place at the beginning of the Lord’s ministry while the later happened at the very end. John placed them side-by-side to contrast the purity of the gospel Jesus taught with the corrupt practices of the religion of the day. From all the miracles Jesus performed, John chose to include only seven in his Gospel, along with seven “I am” statements and seven discourses. Out of the Lord’s 3 ½ year ministry John focused on only 21 days, devoting 10 chapters to the last week and 1/3 of the book’s 879 verses to one day.
    Each of the seven miracles in John also symbolizes a greater truth and frankly, to my mind a couple of them are a little strange. The water into wine miracle is a good example. But of all the miracles Jesus performed, perhaps the strangest one is the healing at the Pool of Bethesda in Chapter 5. It was so out of character for Him. Let’s read it. (To read about all seven, go to gracethrufaith.com and type “seven and miracles” in the search box.)
    Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for a feast of the Jews. Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed (and they waited for the moving of the waters. From time to time an angel of the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. The first one into the pool after each such disturbance would be cured of whatever disease he had.) Note: Some manuscripts don’t have the parenthetical portion of this passage, but its inclusion makes the following clearer.
    One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, “Do you want to get well?”
    “Sir,” the invalid replied, “I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me.”
    Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

    The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
     But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”
     So they asked him, “Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?”
    The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.
    Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. (John 5:1-15)
    What’s Going On here?
    A look at the anomalies will help us decode this strange miracle. For instance, usually upon encountering a group of people, Jesus healed all the sick among them, regardless of His personal plans, as in Matt 4:23-24,
    Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them, and Matt. 14:13-14.
    When Jesus heard what had happened, (the death of John the Baptist) he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
    But at the Pool of Bethesda, where the place was littered with the sick and handicapped and where one sweep of His hand could have taken care of everyone, Jesus healed only one. And that one didn’t approach Him. Jesus made the initial contact after learning something about the man. “Do you want to get well?” He asked.
    Then there’s the man’s story, a real Catch 22. Because he was crippled, he couldn’t get to the Pool to be healed. But if he could have gotten to the pool he wouldn’t have needed healing. He needed someone to heal him right where he was.
    And he never asked Jesus to heal him. In fact he didn’t even know with whom he was speaking. The Lord said, “Pick up your mat and walk,” and without hesitation the man did just that, for the first time in 38 years.
    Then there’s the fact that this happened on the Sabbath, so by carrying his mat he drew the attention of the priests who told him it was illegal. The ex-cripple said he was obeying the man who healed him but he couldn’t tell them who the man was.
    Later Jesus found him again and warned him to “stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” Was that a threat?
    What’s going On Here?
    With these facts in view, it appears that the healing at Bethesda is meant to convey much more than meets the eye. The first clue to what that might be comes with the fact that the man had been an invalid for 38 years. The only other time the phrase thirty-eight years appears in the Bible is in Deut. 2:14 describing the length of time the Jews had spent in the wilderness where they received the Law.
    The cripple by the pool in his Catch 22 represented Israel in theirs. Because they were sinners, they couldn’t keep the Law to be saved. But if they could have kept the Law they wouldn’t have needed saving. They needed someone to save them just as they were.
    Bethesda means House of Mercy. Like the cripple, Israel needed someone to show them mercy in their hopeless condition. The Lord showed His mercy to the cripple and offered to do the same for Israel.
    Though Jesus came to the pool specifically to heal this one cripple, the man didn’t recognize his healer and didn’t know with whom he was speaking. Though Jesus came to Earth specifically to save Israel (Matt. 15:24), they didn’t recognize their Savior and didn’t know with whom they were speaking.
    Jesus told the healed cripple to stop sinning lest something worse should happen. He couldn’t have been speaking generally because He knew that if man could stop sinning altogether, he could save himself and wouldn’t need a Savior. The Catch 22 wouldn’t exist. So He must have had a specific sin in mind.
    By working to keep the Law in an effort to save themselves, the Israelites were relying on their own righteousness, a sin. The Law was never meant to be a means of salvation, but to reveal the need for a Savior. He was telling Israel to stop committing the sin of self-righteousness lest something worse should happen. And it did. In the Lord’s time on Earth Israel was subordinate to Rome but still existed as a nation. 38 years after the crucifixion Jerusalem was destroyed and soon after that Israel would cease to exist altogether.
    So it looks as if this one crippled man was chosen to send a message to Israel, joining the Lord in acting out a parable. But they were also sending a message to us, the Lord and the cripple. For which of us has not claimed to be our own Savior? Which of us has not been proud in our self-righteousness?
    Each of us is in the same Catch 22 as the cripple, helpless to save ourself and hopelessly lost. We’re destined to carry our sins to the grave unless God extends His mercy. And so meeting us right where we are and inquiring about our condition, He asks us just like He did the cripple, “Do you want to get well?”

  • Ron

    This is my own research about “WHY 10”

    Why Abraham Stopped at Sodoms Destruction With 10 People

    I don’t know if you have, but I always wondered why Abraham stopped at 10 people as to be the reason for the Lord not to destroy Sodom.

    We know from reading the Bible Lot was Abraham’s Nephew. We also know Abraham feared and respected the God of Heaven. And a person would probably conclude that Abraham’s beliefs rubbed off on Lot his Nephew, based on the fact they lived adjacent to each other. God however, makes this fact plainly known to us through Scripture in the new Testament in 2 Peter 2:7-8 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;).
    Now we come to the area which has always made me wonder why did Abraham stop at 10 people when asking the Lord to Spare the cities of Sodom and Gommorah? When Abraham and Lot separated due to their flocks being too big to be supported within the same area, they separated and went in different directions.
    Lot chose the plain of Jordan wherein were the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot’s choice to live there wasn’t a very wise one either. I am sure that the reputation
    of those cities and the inhabitants of the plain were common knowledge to all who lived near these areas. Yet Lot chose this area because it was well watered, which makes watering ones livestock an easy task.
    Then one day The Lord of Heaven appeared yet again unto Abraham, and here is the Scripture concerning this Genesis 18:1-33 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
    And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
    And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
    And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake. And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake. And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake. And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
    Abraham leaves off at 10 people as we all know, but the question is why 10?
    When we get to where Lot is being removed from Sodom it is only he, his wife, and 2 daughters. Why didn’t Abraham ask the Lord to spare Sodom if only 4 righteous were found, after all each time he went to a lower number the Lord said he would spare it if He found that many, yet he left off at 10. Abraham I feel thought that because Lot was righteous, so was his family and his in-laws by association. That is why the number 10 is where he stopped. Here in shows where this number came from by Abraham. Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: Son in law is in singular form, so that means he was married to one of Lot’s daughters.
    This puts the count at 2, we also know he had 2 daughters who knew not man. This was all of his unmarried daughters, since we know he was a righteous man, even living within Sodom he would have never tolerated a daughter laying with a man without her marrying him. And he most definitely would have never tolerated a daughter playing the harlot. In those days women typically stayed with their parents until they were married. But now things change a little in the count as you will see.
    With what we have right now we have 1 son in law, 1 married daughter, 2 virgin daughters, Lot and his wife for a total of 6 persons, which means there has to be 4 sons. But if we read further in Genesis we see Genesis 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. Now knowing this fact that son in law is plural, so is married daughters, and this brings the count of Lots sons to just 2.
    So let us count one last time, 2 virgin daughters, 2 sons, 2 sons in law, 2 married daughters, Lot and his wife for a grand total of 10 people. Isn’t it interesting to note how Abraham surmised such, yet what was the outcome? Truly had all of these people been righteous the Lord would have spared Sodom and Gommorah. However God did make sure those that were righteous did not perish with the wicked. Also it shows how Lot’s sons and daughters by being associated with the inhabitants of the city had become just as corrupt as they were. Because there is no doubt Lots sons and daughters were told the Truth about God and His Laws while growing up. And I’m sure Great Uncle Abraham also talked frequently about God when he visited. But in the end it just goes to show that who we keep for company greatly affects our destiny in life. It also shows God will also remove us before He can begin His Judgment here on Earth via the Rapture. Isn’t it funny how God has given many examples of this in the Bible yet nonbelievers still scoff at the idea we will escape judgment, and so do some groups who claim to be Christians. Also lastly when Lot left Sodom he left all his worldly goods behind. Lot no doubt based on the fact he sat in the gate of the city and the fact he had to move away from his Uncle Abraham with his cattle shows that he was a wealthy man. This is also why his wife probably looked back on Sodom, because all of the good life Lot’s wife knew and their wealth all went up in smoke. So she was turned into a pillar of salt, because she looked back. Likewise we should never look back either when God gets us out of a situation that was destroying our soul and causing us to sin. God Bless!

    • Kiwiwatcher

      Excellent work brother Ron. A fine example of what happens when one is attracted to the other side. False converts, faithless, which we sometimes term ‘backsliders’ but I do wonder if they were ever Born-Again.

      Only by faith was Enoch translated, and I believe very similar to occur for the Rapture. Could be mistaken but I have never found anything Scriptural that says ‘because you believe there was a man call Jesus – you will be Raptured – even if you dont believe in the event.’

      “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13

      There is a severe penalty for those people who deliberately reject the Truth.

      Thank you brother for the Ten People study. Blessings

      • Ron

        I am glad it Blessed You Kiwi since you are way stronger in Bible doctrine than I am. The problem for me these days is

        just trying to remember what I have read old age is creeping up on me. I am really hoping we are departing soon.

        God Bless You Kiwi.

  • CHAR

    Pistol Peter, y’all took the words right outta my mouth re: Pete, the pest! He seems to thrive on arguing and dissension, so this is me not responding no mo to him. But I, like you, am concerned about his attitude and spirituality, although I don’t recall the hate thing that he keeps talking about, I’m still not responding anymore to him, as I’ve already told him to listen and he will hear me brushing the dust off my feet and moving on. God Bless y’all!

    • Pistol Peter

      I’m so sorry, my little sister, Char! I didn’t mean to take the words outa yer mouth! Fact is, I didn’t even see dem thar! Y’all have been pretty patient and tolerant. With some prayer and humblin’ Pete’ll come around. I hear a couple o’Scripture verses a’comin’ to my head, “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty…” I Cor. 1: 27

      I feel mighty confounded right now. Why this fella can mess with a person’s head worse than a handful of skunks in a hen house!

      The other verse that comes to mind, “We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.” Rom. 15: 1.

      L’il Sister, I guess we’ve got our work cut out fer us! There will be other “Petes” to follow.

      To tie this one up tight, “Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.” Rom. 14: 19

      Sometimes, we just have to dust our sandals off, as ye said, and move along…keepin’ our peace. I hope Pete can soon hear the Savior’s gentle voice, as He tries to quiet his spirit and to give him rest.

      God bless ya!

      • Why are you using two different names? From your one IP address I see “TorchbearerforJesus” as well as “Pistol Peter”. Are you trolling? You have been warned.

        • Ron

          There is something really wrong and really off with Pete if he claims and says he is saved and yet trying to pass

          himself off as 3 different people on your blog Geoffrey. And then his other fake personas go against His doctrine except for where

          Pistol Peter said….
          Pistol Peter wrote…..(Quote):
          I find it pretty dumb for anyone to believe they are the only one that’s right, when very well educated people, better’n myself, spent their whole life time workin’ this stuff through and reaching a logical conclusion that works. (UnQuote)

          Well Pete that was pretty stupid to write that so as to justify you are right claiming you are very well educated
          person better than everyone else spending your whole life workin’ this stuff through and reaching a logical conclusion that works.

          I have never made a claim ever to be more educated than anyone, are you now God and know what Geoffrey, Sky, DC,
          Kiwi, Char have for actual education?????????

          I am very educated, but I may not be as educated as any of them or you Geoffrey. Heck my son who is a nurse is way

          more educated than I am. “Sarcasm on”But I know Pete has to be more Educated than me because he told me so”Sarcasm off”
          That little quote a;most gives him away. God Bless You Geoffrey!

        • Pete

          Geoffrey, this is just a possibility….but it could be that Skywatcher accidentally posted a few times under someone else’s name. That would explain the same IP address with different names, for some posts. I recently tried to reply to a thread, and for some reason a different person’s name and email popped into the boxes below the text box. I noticed that before I posted. But I could have easily posted as someone else (Ron, as it turns out!).

          Do you think it’s possible that SW did this inadvertently? I might not agree with his eschatology, but I don’t think Skywatcher is intending to spam your page.

          Just my opinion FWIW.

          • ALl 3 addresses has the same home IP address attached. You can steal someone’s email but you cannot steal their IP address.

    • Ron

      Now we know Pete has problems look at what Geoffrey wrote in Response to Pistol Peter….

      Geoffrey wrote “Why are you using two different names? From your one IP address I see “TorchbearerforJesus” as well as “Pistol Peter”. Are you trolling? You have been warned.

      TORCHBEARERFORJESUS AND PISTOL PETER ARE BOTH “PETE” Brothers and Sisters

      • Skywatcher

        Ron, I also got the same warning, and I’m NOT Pete!

        • Ron

          I hope you can see Pete in this Sky

          There is something really wrong and really off with Pete if he claims and says he is saved and yet trying to pass

          himself off as 3 different people on your blog Geoffrey. And then his other fake personas go against His doctrine except for where

          Pistol Peter said….
          Pistol Peter wrote…..(Quote):
          I find it pretty dumb for anyone to believe they are the only one that’s right, when very well educated people, better’n myself, spent their whole life time workin’ this stuff through and reaching a logical conclusion that works. (UnQuote)

          Well Pete that was pretty stupid to write that so as to justify you are right claiming you are very well educated
          person better than everyone else spending your whole life workin’ this stuff through and reaching a logical conclusion that works.

          I have never made a claim ever to be more educated than anyone, are you now God and know what Geoffrey, Sky, DC,
          Kiwi, Char have for actual education?????????

          I am very educated, but I may not be as educated as any of them or you Geoffrey. Heck my son who is a nurse is way

          more educated than I am. “Sarcasm on”But I know Pete has to be more Educated than me because he told me so”Sarcasm off”
          That little quote a;most gives him away. God Bless You Geoffrey!

        • pete

          Skywatcher that’s because YOU are Pistol Peter and TorchbearerforJesus. Why don’t you man up and call off your goons Ron and Char?

          • Skywatcher

            Pete, this is NOT the first time I’ve seen posts come up under other peoples’ names! In fact, their email addresses were also given for all to see. I’m not getting myself worked up over this; it’s not a doctrinal error, but could be a technological one.

          • No, this is not a case of someone using your email address. The IP address, meaning the same computer, is the same for all three names. That means YOU are posing as all three people. Someone can use your email address, but only you can use your IP address. So just admit it, James says “confess your faults to one another”, and put it under the blood and stop doing it please.

        • Pete

          Skywatcher, I think you might be right. And by the way, I would disagree with GG anyway, you are NOT trolling, you are anything but a troll.

          • Skywatcher

            Thanks, Pete.

          • Skywatcher: please use only ONE name, and stop using the other two. Thanks.

      • No, Pete is separate from torchbearer-skywatcher-pistolpete. Pete has a different IP address, the other three have the same one.

        • Dianne

          Hello Geoffrey, multiple personality disorder is a very serious mental issue, as I’m sure that you are already aware of. We must definitely pray for the real person behind these pseudo names to be made whole. Maybe you could set up your website to only allow one name to post instead of many from the same IP address. Thank you for exposing this awful disorder. Our compassion for this person should cause us all to WATCH as well as PRAY.

          Sincerely in Christ,
          Dianne

        • David Kaus

          Confessing one’s faults one to another would include calling Ted Cruz a liar when he spoke the truth at AIPAC about Trump’s statement that he was “neutral” concerning Israel, and the Palestinians.

          And that is what you did Geoffrey.

          Now live up to your own words, and clear that slate, or be a self righteous hypocrite.

          • Donald Trump is not “neutral” as ‘Lying Ted’ said that night…click here to watch a video of more of Cruz’s lies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwIHJhtTSLg

          • David Kaus

            Save it Geoffrey Trump made the statement about being neutral, the video and articles concerning that fact have been posted for all to see. Ted did not lie when he commented about Trump stating he was neutral about Israel and Palestine at AIPAC.

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  • CHAR

    Ron, Skywatcher & all, looks like our little buddy Pete has multiple personalities, so he gets up in the morning and depending on what mood he’s in, he’s either Pistol Peter or Pete or that other long name. Perhaps we will just have to ignore his posts, no matter what he says and not respond to any of them, no matter what name he goes under for that day. That’s pretty low and very un-Christian for him to do. Geoffrey, looks like you might have to do some cleaning up on your website.

    • Ron

      Char you have it right…What Pete is doing is very unChristian. I just read his posts and others and realize the lateness of the hour.

      I see the time as 1 minute before midnight. God Bless You CHAR!

    • pete

      Sigh. Char and Ron, if in fact you actually are 2 different people…Geoffrey himself stated that Skywatcher, Pistol Peter and TorchbearerforJesus are all posting from the same IP address. (Do you know what that even means?) Geoffrey didn’t say that my “Pete” posts are coming from the same IP. I think Skywatcher got his/her hand caught in the proverbial cookie jar. You are making absolutely no sense. Why would I spend time creating fake accounts and then arguing with those fake people? There’s plenty of work to do, arguing with you “real” people. 🙂

      But whatever. I guess I am dealing with folks who believe that the entire world is run by 10 people who worship Satan, so how on earth could I ever convince you?

      BTW my current IP address is 72.23.147.85…that’s my work IP in Medina, Ohio (Armstrong Cable). When I am at home it’s different.

      My email is pbksocial@gmail.com. I don’t have anything to hide. Do you want my phone number?

      • Ron

        I apologize Pete for thinking you were those other people, I just found out skywatcher was them.

        I have both short term attention span, tunnel vision, and memory problems. I took Geoffrey’s post meaning wrong as well.

        I am sorry. I also don’t blame you if you don’t forgive me on that one.

        • Pete

          That’s ok Ron…thank you 🙂

    • NO, PistolPete and Pete are two different people.

  • CHAR

    Geoffrey, I am so confused, I don’t understand who’s who anymore. So you’re saying that Skywatcher is SW, PP, and Pete? Now that is a shock, if it’s true. I am going to back off for awhile and just read comments and not post until this is straightened out. So Pete is innocent and SW is guilty? Please don’t let that be true all this time! If it is so, I apologize to Pete for the error.

    • Pete is NOT, I repeat is NOT PistolPete…..Skywatcher/TorchBearer/PistolPete are the same person. Pete is someone else.

    • Ron

      I apologized to Pete as well. I think I will just read the articles by themselves anymore.

  • Kiwiwatcher

    Tis all a little strange. I quoted earlier from Skywatcher 16 March 8.45am (near top of page) when he asked Pete what Bible he read. Now that posters name has changed from Skywatcher to TorchforJesus.

    For the record before God – Pete declared in answeing Skywatcher that he USUALLY read the King James
    When I asked regarding his studies which Bible does he briefly scan – Pete declared “i use the King james 100% of the time”
    Later, after some thought, Pete now claims that he was meaning that he uses the King James 100% of the time whenever arguing with someone regarding Scripture.

    I rest my case

  • Skywatcher

    Beloved in Christ, I have a confession to make, and I’m sooo very ashamed and sorry! I got caught doing something that I thought was totally harmless, not meaning to hurt or deceive anybody. I am those people that Brother Geoffrey has pointed out. Let me explain why I did it, and it was NOT to be deceptive or destructive.

    In the winter months, my business is very slow, and that allows me a lot of time on the computer. I found that I was making sooooo many posts, that I was getting tired of seeing my name (Skywatcher) all over the place, and thought others might be also. I surely couldn’t blame them if they were!

    Then the accolades started coming in, and that was beginning to pique my ego a little bit, and being a rather humble man, I didn’t want my ego to inflate, as I know that without Christ I am NOTHING, and I do it all for Him. I wanted my contribution to be about Him and NOT ME!

    Never being on a blog before, I thought the best way to thwart that was to use an alias, (TorchbearerforJesus), then as the discussions were getting more heated in places, I dreamed up the character, Pistol Pete, to add a little levity, and yes, to send some zingers.

    I do not have multiple personalities or any mental disorder, as a couple have suggested; it’s called artistic license, and it was all a way of trying to distract the attention from myself, which ultimately backfired. In none of my posts have I EVER INTENTIONALLY deviated from the truth of God’s Word or attempted to lead anybody astray. I still do not know what a “troll” does, but please rest assured, I merely wanted to honor God while abasing myself.

    If Geoffrey had contacted me via email, which he obviously has my address, and confronted me privately, this could’ve been stopped in private, and the other characters would’ve faded away into oblivion, and nobody would’ve known better or been hurt. He felt the need to make it a “public” issue, and hopefully, I haven’t seriously hurt anybody because of it. God is still the same today as He was before this came to light.

    In the meantime, his decision to do so, caused me such shame and “public” humiliation, that I was afraid to step out and admit it was I. I felt like I had just been convicted of robbing a bank or rape, etc.. I didn’t want to bring shame to our Lord by admitting it was me, especially after He has so graciously used me to encourage and to uplift so many. I also didn’t want Pete to be taking flack he didn’t deserve.

    I would’ve apologized sooner today, but I was busy with the business and company dropping in, etc. Of course, I had the enemy sitting on my shoulder saying, “Just leave it alone; it will eventually go away! You heard Geoffrey say, ‘Stop it’, well stop it, that’ll be good enough!” or “Others have said and done much worse things on that blog! Just walk away and fade off into the sunset! You were speaking God’s Word, what harm could that possibly do?!” As most of you know…the old devil is pretty wily and convincing.

    That’s not what Christ would have me to do. Having had some time to get my breath, to sit back and to see how it is affecting several people, I finally swallowed my pride and here I am to expose myself now. After all, if I’m willing to lay my life down for Christ, this really isn’t that big of a deal. It was an innocent blunder.

    As I said before, I didn’t know that using an alias was going to be such a huge deal. Of course…one sin leads to another and I tried to cover my tracks. As the buried bean-bag doll in the manure pile started to sprout, I knew I had to come clean. I apologize PROFUSELY, especially to you, Pete, because you were getting the brunt of it! I hope you, and the others can find it in your hearts to forgive me for my mistake and error in good judgment. I can assure you, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!

    If anybody knows that whomsoever “the truth has set free, is free indeed”, then it is I today. And yes, Brother Geoffrey, I had already asked God’s forgiveness and buried it in the blood of my Savior. This is the “rest of the story”. Fear is such an awful but powerful enemy! I’m so sorry, and I implore your forgiveness one and all! 🙁

    Skywatcher

    • Kiwiwatcher

      Brother Skywatcher – I do forgive you for your transgression with one question.

      “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matthew 6:15

      Had believed you to also be ‘Screaming Eagle’ – is that true?

      • Skywatcher

        Oh my! Yes, Brother, I forgot about he and “Rapture Rooster”. I didn’t use them very often. Thank you, for your forgiveness. I’ve been wondering since my apology though… many of us use pseudonyms. I wonder if it would’ve made this much ruckus if I had used all of my different legal names at different times? The same message would’ve come out, and I would still be the same person with the same IP address. Just curious.

        Thanks again! Your response is the first one I was brave enough to open. God bless you brother, for your mercy.

        • Kiwiwatcher

          That’s all I asked for brother, as I was aware. Please put your curiosity away. The sun still gets up….

          God bless you.

    • David Kaus

      Hello Skywatcher

      You did a brave thing here facing an embarrassing situation, I’m not sure many could have done the same. As a matter of fact the one who exposed you in posting under various names has a little fault cleaning up to take care of himself.

      One Scripture verse that comes to mind here is this.

      2 Corinthians 10:5

      “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;”

      How many people stop to consider every thought that comes into the mind and bring it into subjection to the obedience of Christ ? Time and time again you can see people influenced by the first thought that comes into mind. Or others who have formed habits that are so ingrained that thoughts translate into automatic actions and they don’t even realize they have become puppets to thought manipulation by forces of darkness.

      The Christian life is full of struggles with self, others, and the enemy of our soul. It is a constant battle in life, and many times I have found myself my own worst enemy. At other times I have gone through a day wondering if I had done anything right.

      But this one thing I do.

      Proverbs 24:16

      “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.”

      You got yourself off the floor brother, and that is a big part of our spiritual battle. Don’t let satan keep you ever on the floor.

      Looking forward to you continued fellowship on this site.

      God Bless, Brother

      • Skywatcher

        Brother David Kaus, you can never EVER imagine how much those merciful words mean to me, especially at a time like this! I had revisited my funeral arrangements last evening (not planning anything stupid!!!), and at one point today, I was greatly reminded… “Do you want something as silly as that to condemn you to Hell for all eternity? Would you set yourself up for Christ to say to you, “Depart from me ye accursed, I never knew you!” Mt. 7: 21-23

        This was such an opportunity to honor Christ and to give Satan a black eye, and I wasn’t going to pass it up!

        I greatly value our kinship in Christ, and look forward to more fellowship, now and in eternity! Thank you, so much for those words of encouragement! I’ll have the popcorn ready and waiting…with extra butter!

        • David Kaus

          It’s a deal B3J3A1. 🙂 You know some one posted that another’s email address popped up above the “post comment” section. That happened to me one time. I can’t remember who’s address it was but was surprised to see it happen.

          Edification:

          Romans 8:28

          “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

          2 Corinthians 2:10

          “To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;”

          2 Corinthians 2:11

          “Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.”

          Ephesians 4:27

          “Neither give place to the devil.”

          You freed yourself Sky from giving the devil a place to continue to work in your life. And any advantage the devil would have gained from anyone being unforgiving has also been negated.

          Now concerning nick names when posting, many do that, but ever since my first post some years back I felt convicted not to post under any nick name, or pseudonym. I felt that if I was going to post concerning the Gospel of Jesus Christ that I would use my own name.

          That was my conviction. Others may have reasons why they do not want their name made public, and I understand that. I just didn’t want to go down that road. I can imagine many have had a lot of fun posting with different names not intending to harm any one. But things of that nature can lead to other things that were never intended at first. The subtlety of the devil can never be underestimated.

          The extra butter sounds great. Concentrate on giving good informative post that you are surely capable of doing, and have done in the past.

          God bless, David

          • Skywatcher

            Thanks, Bro. for that insight and encouragement! I’ve had enough of this day. Going to call it an early night! It’s 11:11 pm here. Rain for tomorrow, 52 degrees! Summer! 🙂

            Thanks again, for your love and support! God bless you with a great night!

    • Ron

      Sky I do forgive you, it took a lot to admit that and I had to apologize to Pete for blaming him.

      I take you at your word you will never do it again.

      And again Pete I am sorry for accusing you instead, and hope you will forgive me.

      • Skywatcher

        Thank you, Ron, and NO I WON’T EVER do that again! I had to apologize because I don’t want to be a hypocrite.

        God bless you, Bro!

    • vietnamvet1971/Larry

      No problem with me……I forgive and forgot…

      • Skywatcher

        Thank you, so much Brother Larry! I won’t forget! 🙂

    • DC

      Hey, Sky, you big Canuck! Of course I accept your humble & gracious apology. Several people could learn by your example. We’ve all dug ourselves a hole and watched it get bigger around us as we try to get out of it. I know your heart; I’ve benefited from your teachings; and I’ve been uplifted by your prayers and reassurances when I worry, as well as your support across the board. The Lord has already forgotten your transgression, and He also knows your heart and that you didn’t do it with evil intent but to take the focus off yourself and put it onto Him. Plus, I know the air’s a lot thinner up in Nova Scotia, so your brain’s getting less oxygen–or it’s those chemtrails you talk about and I don’t know much about….

      Humans may take longer to forgive & forget, but we are to forgive as we’ve been forgiven, so eventually the Holy Spirit will set ’em straight. The HS obviously convicted you to confess and I bet you feel a whole lot better. I know I always do and have said so here. Some people THINK they have the HS, but either ignore His promptings or don’t have Him at all. Case in point, I felt compelled by Him to apologize more than once to people I was a little short with and never got an apology back–not that it was my motive; we must forgive no matter if the other person deserves it or asks for it in return.

      You have complete restoration in the Lord and complete fellowship with me. Now stop beating yourself up and start thinking how you’re going to fit all these people at your place for Popcornaloosa. I prefer the Chicago Mix: half caramel, half cheddar. I buy it up at Costco like I have shares in the stock! Love ya, brother!

      • Skywatcher

        DC, you are so special! Thank you, for those very kind words of forgiveness, edification, and testimony! I’m so happy that I could be a little blessing to you. God really is sooooo good! Look at the tremendously fantastic bond of love Christ has given our little group of popcorn poppies and the others who’ve reached back to me! I’m so glad I was once again obedient to our Lord’s correction.

        As for sitting room for our “Popcornaloosa”, I have over an acre of well landscaped land, so seating shouldn’t be a problem! Oops! That reminds me! I must get an advert up, for wedding pics to be taken here! In the past, I’ve had weddings, wedding pics, prom and grad pics and family pics taken here. I think you would be comfortable in your surroundings! Bro. David K, if you’re listening in, I’ve even got SKY shots of my property, which I never even asked for! You can get them for a much reduced rate when you tell them that; invasion of privacy!

        DC, I’ve never heard of “Chicago Mix” before. I think I need to get me a lead on some o’ that thar popped cattle corn! Thanks again, my dear sister! I greatly appreciate your love in Christ, and willingness to help see me through this! 🙂 I’m feeling much better! I’m so glad that tomorrow is a new day, filled with promise,

        “This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. 22. It is of the LORD’S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23. They are new every morning; great is thy faithfulness.”

        Thank you again, and God bless you!

    • Dianne

      Hello Skywatcher, I too forgive you with all my heart. I am very glad to read your post coming clean on what you did. As TorchbearerforJesus you sent me the most beautiful and encouraging post I have ever received. Do you remember it? Do you remember my response to you as TorchbearerforJesus? As Skywatcher and Pistol Peter we did not get along, but I want to bury the hatch with you in regard to those posts. I am extending the olive branch of peace to you if you will except it. I know that we may not agree with all issues on this blog, but we can agree to disagree without personal attacks and character assassination. We are still flesh and blood behind these computers and if we cut one another we are sure to “bleed”.
      I hope that this post finds you well. I would like to make a suggestion to you. Give it a thought before you reply. How about posting under your real first name.I personally don’t like pseudo names, however I do understand why some people prefer them . Posting under your real first name may help you in ways that you never knew before. Maybe free up your spirit, only God really knows. Like I said , it’s just a suggestion. If by chance you decide to do so, please let us all know that it’s you. And no more pranks you naughty boy. Lol !!!
      Sincerely in Christ,
      Dianne

      • Skywatcher

        Thank you, Dianne, for those kind words! I had been anticipating your response, and I have done as you’ve asked, and taken time to think on my reply. I accept your “olive branch” and feel the warmth of Christ’s love coming through you to me today. “Fessin’ up was a huge step, and I’m so glad I listened to the voice of the Holy Spirit and did the right thing, bringing honor and glory to Christ.

        Having done so and receiving such a drenching of love from my fellow sibling saints is reward enough. I feel cleansed, refreshed, and encouraged to continue to wage war for our Savior.

        You said, “I know that we may not agree with all issues on this blog, but we can agree to disagree without personal attacks and character assassination. We are still flesh and blood behind these computers and if we cut one another we are sure to “bleed”.”

        That sounds really nice and a wise person would adhere to that! May I lovingly and graciously encourage YOU to follow my lead? Do you recall the number of times I and others encouraged you to apologize to those you were hurting? Your original comments to Geoffrey on some of his posts made you appear as a pit bull, going for the jugular, just as soon as you got out the door. Maybe you didn’t mean to come across that way (which I’m not convinced), but you did. Numerous folks tried to get you to see that, but you continued on.

        Dianne, my dear sister in Christ, you did temporarily hurt a number of people with your emotional outbursts, and they appear to have “cooled off” and gotten over them. However, People apologized to you, but no apology was ever forthcoming from you, when you were clearly in the wrong. Why can’t this be a new page turned over for all of us who have wronged each other recently? I already forgave you, but one still needs to be accountable to others and to do the right thing.

        This is what I got from the Lord last evening, in anticipation of your posting today. To do so, will also “free up your spirit” and put you in better standing with all you’ve also hurt, and restore you to a good and proper fellowship with Christ and your fellow siblings in the family of God. When I humbled myself and apologized for my mistake, it was like a huge millstone had been lifted off my shoulders!

        You see how a simple apology has brought so many of us back into relationship since yesterday. Try it out! There’s still more love to be extended to you, and I WANT YOU to have it! I don’t want this to be taken as a slap, but in obedience to our Lord, I had to tell you, because He has compelled me to do so. God bless you, Sis! Much love and grace is extended to you, you naughty girl! LOL!!! 🙂

        Sincerely in Christ,
        Skywatcher

        • DC

          Hey, Sky, let’s just leave things be. People are getting along now and Dianne HAS extended an olive branch and apologized to people, so let’s not open old wounds. Let the HS prompt those who need it and let’s get back to edifying each other.

          Like most of you I had 2 grandmas. One loved me like crazy and the other was stern and impatient with children running around. Grandma “Stern,” I’ll call her, was impatient with Grandpa and intimidated her own children, making my mom a nervous person, and me in turn. When Grandma Stern got really old, she mellowed out, as people tend to do, but Grandpa was already gone. When she was on her death bed she asked my mom, “Do you think he ever forgave me?,” meaning my grandpa, whom she often hollered at and belittled.

          My dad was my hero, but I only learned after he died that in 51 yrs. of marriage he was never the 1st one to apologize. My mom hated any strife between them, having seen so much in her own parents, and was always the peace maker. I grew up in such a loving home but married a man who was–get this–stern and impatient, a controlling, easily angry man, who’s own dad never gave him attention, never went to one of his ball games, and didn’t tell him he loved him until on his death bed. He rejected me frequently and never said he was sorry; I was like my mom, a peace maker. Thankfully our boys turned out to be loving, kind men, one who’s a wonderful husband and father, and the other is sensitive and loving too, not that their dad would ever give me any credit, but that’s not why moms do what they do.

          The point is, sometimes it takes A LOT for someone to apologize and sometimes it never happens, and we and they have to live with that. We don’t just bring ourselves into marriages or friendships but our entire history. I’ve been trying to understand how some people–and I count 10-12 of them–who for some reason are always on the defensive, trying to find fault or make digs at others just because of their choice for prez—like we really have a say anyway… I’ve asked KY to stop passive-aggressive comments and told Paulette to apologize to Geoff, but they didn’t respond. Dianne and I are ok now. A couple others have left or aren’t here enough to get my blood pressure up. So, again, let’s start new and let go of the past.

          What happened with my grandma made me realize that I need to work harder to not “go off” on people. I read that if we have unconfessed sin, God doesn’t hear our prayers, so I’ve been asking Him to show me where I’m wrong and to help me. Also, tomorrow’s not guaranteed, so I don’t want the sun to go down on any of our wrath.

          Love and God’s Perfect Blessings to all,
          DC

    • Pete

      Skywatcher, all is well, forgiven…always nice and a testimony to the world to see a person humble themselves. Only Christians truly humble themselves. Muslims put on airs with their bowing and their appearance of humility but it takes “being in Christ” to be able to stand up and admit to your brothers and sisters you have erred. So that is to be commended and your reward is great! Loves….Pete

      • Skywatcher

        Thanks, Pete, for your grace and understanding in this regard! Blessings!

    • Edwitness

      Skywatcher,
      As for me, I never even noticed?. I consider you to be my brother in Christ and a great encourager. Enough said.
      Blessings:-}

      • Skywatcher

        Thanks, Bro! Ditto!!!

  • CHAR

    Skywatcher, I too forgive you like our other Christian buddies on this website. We have more to worry about in these days than your little mistake. My granddaughter is getting married tomorrow, so us gals are all getting beautified (mine will take the longest) lol So all is well. I have to say I enjoyed the comments of Skywatcher more than from Pistol Pete and the other names from you, so that’s a plus for you. Keep up the good spiritual comments we have all enjoyed from YOU! God Bless!

    • Skywatcher

      Thank you, my dear sister, Char! Thank you, for the kind words of encouragement and Christian love. If you look anything at all like your heart does within, you’re more than beautiful enough for tomorrow’s occasion!

      I trust some part of this wedding tomorrow will spark a spiritual fire in the hearts of your family members! All the best tomorrow!

      God bless you, and all yours!
      Sky

      • David Kaus

        Skywatcher how goes it bro ?

        I’m doing some reading of exposition/articles on the Millennial Temple.

        The popcorn popper is up and running (new popcorn popper), my hot apple cider, tart cherry, honey, 3 drops of oregano oil, and a dash of baking soda (Red Mill) drink is ready, and the couch is waiting.

        Have a great God bless day, David

        • Skywatcher

          Bro, I’m having a truly wonderful day of peace, quiet, research on the date of Christ’s death, and leisure. I’m going to be popping a new DVD into the box in a moment or two, “Kabul24”, produced by Michael W. Smith.

          In August of 2001, eight Western aid workers were taken hostage by the Taliban. Do you remember that? This DVD is about their miraculous deliverance!

          Do you have license to concoct such an elixir? Do you combine all these ingredients together? If so, would you mind giving me the recipe, as to how much tart cherry and honey(?)? I love apple cider…cold and sparkling! Is it flammable or highly corrosive? Do you have to fasten your seat belt to drink this powerful potion? 🙂

          As you can see, I’m having a great day, but I’ve got the umbrella close by…God bless you too, my brother, as you hold the couch down!

    • Dianne

      Char, congratulations on your granddaughter’s wedding. How exciting I love weddings. Let us know how it went.
      Peace and blessings,
      Dianne

  • James

    Do not hold your breath. We are living in the Age of the grace of God. There are no prophecies being fulfilled during this age. Prophecy will resume when this age ends at the Rapture.

    • Pete

      James, so you don’t believe the 1948 statehood of Israel is prophecy being fulfilled? If so, then I applaud you for being consistent with your dispensational doctrine.

  • CHaR

    Edwitness, Terrific! The angels in heaven are rejoicing right now for another one to come home….I bet you didn’t expect the blessing you would receive at work today. Yes, I will be praying for this new soul to grow in His word and he and his wife will unite in the love of the Lord together. The enemy is going to be right on his doorstep now, so I pray that he will grow in knowledge to withstand the wiles of that old serpent. God Bless!

  • CHAR

    Edwitness (aka Ed the Witness), I prayed for your co-worker, Trent last evening and, as SW says, that movie is a very good movie for Trent and his wife to watch. I also have the movie. It’s also been on TV. Well, I must start my daily preparation for the big wedding this evening. God bless all!

    Diane, thank you for your comment and yes, I will let everyone know how the wedding went. I won’t stay long as the drinking will begin early and it’s pretty far from my house.

    • Edwitness

      Thank you so much Char,
      I told him that there were Christians all over the world (you gals and guys) praying specifically for him and his wife. He expressed a fervent thankfulness to all of you.
      Have a blessed time at the wedding. We are praying for you as well.
      Blessings:-}

      PS If you look up Joshua 22:34 you will see that the name Ed (my given name) means ‘witness’. “And the children of Reuben and the children of Gad called the altar Ed; for it shall be a wtness between us that the Lord is God”. That is why I use edwitness for my comment stream name.

  • DC

    My email showed a comment from Ron to James re: Jews making Aliyah to Israel, but do you think I can find it in these 425 comments? I think I sprained a finger scrolling up and down and my wrist now needs carpel tunnel surgery, so hope you appreciate my diligence. 🙂 This is a good article/video from a rabbi to Jews to leave now before attacks in US. They are living unaware, he says. Was reposted on prophecytracker.org but I clicked on original. (Incidentally, I type so quickly I sometimes make typos. Here I almost said “from a rabbit to Jews,” which would’ve put an odd pagan-Easter slant on things, but I caught myself….)

    http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/64273/purim-warning-its-time-jews-get-out-america-jewish-world/#zzZC0L5AiuTzJuhz.97

    • Ron

      DC I replied to James but don’t know where it is at. What I said was how do explain can can a nation be formed in a day, Jeruselem would be a burdensome stone, The Jews Making Ayila like never before. and probably is more prophecies but I can’t remember at the moment.

      Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

      Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

      Also Israel was all desert when the Jews first arrived in 1948

      Isaiah 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

      • DC

        I think it’s a glitch in the system, but your last comment showed up both in my email and here. It’s as annoying as a “leave a reply” button. I bet most blogs, other than online news sources, don’t get so many comments and it makes the system a little nutty. Anyway, hopefully James got your 1st comment in his email or saw your 2nd one here, as it was a good point and the reason I posted the link to article on American Jews being begged to make Aliyah for their own safety.

        • Ron

          DC it is very good of you to make links to important news like that so other Brothers and Sisters know about it.

          It also makes them aware of other web sites that have important news to us as Christians. Geoffrey our Brother when I look at how many articles he posts in a given day sometimes just astounds me, there is no doubt about where his power comes
          Jesus Christ via The Holy Spirit of God. He is very busy for Our Lord! God Bless Him and You DC have a Good Day!

  • CHAR

    Edwitness, that’s very interesting about your name. I actually never read that in Joshua (shame on me), so you have appropriately named yourself. Keep us updated on Trent….we’re concerned Christians and will keep praying for him and his wife to unite again in the love they had when they first married and we know God can restore their love for one another.
    God Bless!

  • Thank you for being bold, not only in your witness for Christ, but in your opinions: ex Trump, Pope, etc. I’m with you. God had me close my website, and I directed to several I count on – yours is one. Thanks for all you do.

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