THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND

Was the Horse and Rider of Revelation 6 Seen In Egypt?

| February 4, 2011

A funny thing happened on the way to the revolution…

Did a ghostly horse and rider materialize and streak across the screen during a live MSNBC newscast from Egypt today? We’re not sure what it was, but it sure looked like a ghostly horse and rider running first forward and then up and out of sight….

“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.” Revelation 6:7,8

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see."

We will let you watch and decide what this means for yourself. As for me, at the very least, I find it not only very timely, but even if it’s faked, very interesting. Here is the YouTube video that someone put together, and after you watch it, click on the link for the MSNBC actual video below the YouTube video and start watching around 10:26. Watch it a few times and write in and let us know what YOU think it is.

Now click here for the actual newscast from MSNBC, and you will see exactly the same thing at 10:26…what say YOU?

About the Author:

NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he hosts a twice-weekly bible study and prophecy radio show on BlogTalk Radio, and oversees a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.
×

89 Comments on "Was the Horse and Rider of Revelation 6 Seen In Egypt?"

Trackback | Comments RSS Feed

Inbound Links

  1. Tweets that mention Was the Horse and Rider of Revelation 6 Seen In Egypt? -- Topsy.com | February 4, 2011
  2. Tweets that mention Was the Horse and Rider of Revelation 6 Seen In Egypt? -- Topsy.com | February 5, 2011
  3. what is the best equipment for green bowling | January 8, 2012
  4. best walkie talkie | January 9, 2012
  5. 888paydayloan.com888paydayloan.com88888paydayloan888 | January 9, 2012
  6. 888paydayloan.com | January 9, 2012
  7. Büro Mobilyaları | January 9, 2012
  8. robintel | January 9, 2012
  9. iron gym workout bar | January 17, 2012
  10. kaetanodj | January 20, 2012
  11. Shredding Fort Lauderdale | January 21, 2012
  12. הלבשה סקסית | January 23, 2012
  13. Things on Sale for Cheap | January 25, 2012
  14. motor cycle reviews | March 12, 2012
  15. plastikiniai langai | March 21, 2012
  16. vidaus durys | May 5, 2012
  17. teeth whitening kits at home | September 23, 2012
  18. Gaptek Update | March 13, 2013
  1. Rebecca says:

    Wow! I didn’t expect THIS so soon! I believe I heard the voice of God speak to me in January (early part of the month) “To the Seven Churches”… I’ve assumed we must be living out the early chapters of the book of Revelation.

  2. Sue says:

    careful, slow motion review shows that it is a reflection on the glass in front of the camera lens, so it is something actually occurring behind the cameraman…HOWEVER, I can see how God’s hand is all over this event, given Isaiah 19!

    Look up, our redemption drawth nigh!

  3. Suzanne says:

    ok this is definately eerie. Real or not, eerie!

  4. Nelda says:

    Really? I would think that if this were real it would scare you too death! After all, you pre-trib people are “out of here” at Ch. 4 of Revelations and the 4 horsemen don’t appear until Chapter 6 and since Revelations is a chronological record of events, you guys have been left behind.

  5. Greg says:

    I don’t know what that was in the video. I do not believe that the scripture is referring to actual horses and riders, but it refers to spirits, or forms of government that will are in the world in these last days. I think the white horse in verse 2 represents Catholicism. The red horse in verse 4 represents Communism. The black horse in verse 5 represents Capitolism, and the pale (green) horse in verse 8 represents Islam.

    • Anand says:

      Mr.Greg If you wish can you tell me on what basis you are considering green horse for Islam?. I don’t think on behalf of religious colours it is referred so.You can see the explanation in Rev 6:8 itself. Do Islam going to kill humans with sword, famine, and plague? or they going to suffer with these things?

  6. Rachel says:

    I agree with Sue. I believe it is a reflection, but I must say that is really weird. I’m sure there is a TON of spiritual warfare there in Ciaro.

  7. Cereal says:

    Greg, I see how the colors may match up to the horses, but theres no verses promoting that idea at all, and the characteristics of the riders don’t really seem to match up with this idea either.

    Marcus if you can post evidence in scripture for Pre trib I’d gladly accept it.

  8. Lance Curtis says:

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:

    13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53:

    51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Philippians 3:20-21:

    20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

  9. Joe says:

    I’m not saying that it couldn’t be some sort of angelic manifestation, but I almost have the feeling it was some sort of overlap in the video. The reporters were saying that the day before riders on horses and camels were running through the streets. The video with the rider was labeled “Earlier” next to the live shot of the reporters. Again, I’m not saying it wasn’t possibly something supernatural caught on tape, but there also could be a very reasonable answer as I’ve stated above. I’d rather be skeptical and have God admonish me, than be gullible and have man fool me. That’s my own personal philosphy. Either way God is still in charge whether the rider was real or not!

  10. Kyle says:

    I will say that I, myself, do believe pre-trib; however, I think I differ from many in regards to when the Great Tribulation begins. I personally believe that there is a difference between tribulation and THE Great Tribulation, and that the Great Tribulation starts in Revelation 8 with the trumpet judgments when things REALLY get bad and that the great multitude in revelation 7 consists of those whom are raptured. That’s just my personal belief though based on my own studies and I’m certainly no eschatologist, so take it as you will. Thanks for the site; I’ve been checking it multiple times a day for news updates, as I don’t watch secular television. Later, brothers and sisters. ~Kyle

  11. James says:

    That was a camel I saw it yesterday a guy road a camel thru thr crowd

  12. Dirk says:

    Lance,

    Are those passages supposed to prove a Pre-Trib Rapture? NOT ONE OF THEM tells us WHEN those things occur. Except I Thes 4 only by inference.

    You see, I Thes 4 gives almost IDENTICAL events occuring as Matt 24 which occurs AFTER THE END of the Tribulation. In fact, Matt 24 is the one of the only places in the Bible that tells us of the Gathering of God’s people to Himself and it occurs After the END of the Tribulation.

    NOW, if you can show ANOTHER gathering that occurs BEFORE the Trib, actually mid trib, I might agree with you, But it is not there. I say mid trib due to what II Thes 2:1- 5 states. That the people of God will NOT be gathered to the Lord UNTIL AFTER the man of perdition is revealed and declares himself to be God in the temple of God.

    Since I Cor 15 is true, then if it DID occur prior to the Trib, then NO ONE would be able to be saved AFTER that Rapture. Because there is only ONE FIRST RESURRECTION!

    Stop listening to men, INCLUDING yourselves and begin to actually Believe what Jesus said in Matt 24!

  13. Dirk,

    Regarding the Rapture: Jesus said that, WHEN “these things” BEGIN to happen, Christians are to “look up, lift up your heads, for your redemption draws nigh”. Those “things” He referred to were the beginning signs of the final 7 years, the “Tribulation”. I propose that if Christians were to go through the Tribulation, including the 3 1/2 years of the “Great Tribulation”, it would be almost deceitful to tell them that their “redemption” had drawn “nigh” if it wasn’t going to happen for another 7 years.

    Also, Jesus exhorted Christians to “watch, and pray always that you might be counted WORTHY to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man”. He said this in the context of describing the beginning of, and events of, the Tribulation, the final 7 years. “Escaping” those things might involve either being protected from them, while on Earth, OR to the Rapture. The key here is that Jesus identified this “escape” with “stand[ing] before the Son of Man”. I submit that if “stand[ing] before the Son of Man” here refers to dying and going to Heaven, that would be a ridiculous interpretation — to pray that one might die in order to escape tribulation. Thus, it almost certainly, absolutely, refers instead to the Rapture, which WILL occur at some point — it would fit far more naturally BEFORE the Tribulation, in order to be in keeping with this “escape” and with “stand[ing] before the Son of Man”.

  14. Greg says:

    Regarding timing of the rapture and the Great Tribulation.

    Nowhere in scripture does it ever identify the entire “final 7 years” of “Daniel’s 70th week” as “the tribulation”.

    But Jesus does tell us that when the abomination of desolation occurs at the midpoint of the week (7 years), that there will be great tribulation…such as never was, nor ever will be again…he tells those in Judea to run to the hills.

    It makes sense then that the Tribulation begins at the midpoint when antichrist reveals himself. (Matthew 24. )
    But also in Luke 21, Jesus is talking about the same time when he says…”when you see Jerusalem compassed “surrounded” with armies, know that desolation thereof is nigh”. The desolation by armies and the abomination of desolation are very closely linked in time and location.

    Jesus also said of the tribulation…that if it were not cut short…no flesh would be saved…but for the sake of the elect it will be cut short. How will it be cut short?… by the rapture of course…Matthew 24. After the signs of the son of man appear in heaven…Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather the elect from the 4 winds of the earth…this is the rapture.

    So we know the rapture happens after the first 3 1/2 years and before the end of second 3 1/2 years. When exactly??? No man knows the day or the hour. But we can know the times and seasons…

    Suffice to say we are not yet in Daniel’s 70th week…because there has not been a covenant confirmed with the many for 7 years.

    I would guess that the time is coming though…where a united Islamic union of states, will take control of the area…bringing a false, temporary peace…granting Israel the right to build a temple on the temple mount.

    This must be done so that the antichrist (who will be of Islamic persuasion) can sit in it and desecrate the temple…declaring himself to be God.

    For more about the Islamic Antichrist…and the nations associated with Ezekiel 38 Gog and Magog…check out this link. http://www.thestrongwatchman.com/the-last-days/50-the-book-of-revelation/648-the-revived-islamic-empire-of-the-antichrist.html

    We are now seeing the pieces fall into place like never before…where Islam is dominating the countries around Israel. This must happen so that they can be the dominant power who has the force capable of granting such a false peace and covenant with Israel.

  15. Greg says:

    Douglas…

    Regarding the “pray to escape” issue. Jesus is talking about those things which will come upon the unbelievers after the believers are removed….sometime in the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week.

    Jesus says in many other places for us to watch…so we are not taken by surprise when He comes. We the believers will escape the horrible wrath of God’s judgment (trumpets and the bowls) but only if we are faithful and true believers.

    You are not in darkness that that day should overcome you as a thief. We are of the day and we walk in the light. Watch therefore.

    If you are walking in darkness…you will be caught unaware and unprepared for the Lord’s coming. This is a most basic warning…to believers to keep the faith. Do not indulge in the world…saying that the master delays His coming…I have time to fool around. Those who do such things will be caught off guard. Pray that you remain faithful to your master…which we all must do.

    But we will be saved from the wrath of God. However, Jesus never promises that we will be spared from persecution…in fact…quite the opposite. He tells us that we will be hated, betrayed, and killed for His name. But thank God He cuts short the tribulation with rapture as we are not appointed unto wrath…but unto salvation.

    If Christ is talking about the wrath of God as tribulation…than we should be praying and remaining faithful so we will be found worthy to escape in the rapture…from the wrath of God which is to come upon the earth.

    It is my supposition, that the Tribulation begins with persecution by antichrist….and ends before the wrath of God comes down on unbelievers. But if tribulation means God’s wrath…than this statement of escape makes perfect sense…

    Endure the persecution…pray that you will be worthy to escape the wrath. Are you faithful to Christ? Then you will escape the wrath of the Lamb.

  16. Dirk says:

    Where is the scripture that SAYS there is another gathering?

    Where is the scripture that SAYS the Church is raptured before the end of the Trib?

    You have NOT answered the question nor have you provided one single proof of this “fact” you claim is there.

    REMEMBER, the WHOLE Bible is true, not just the parts you like. The verses I refered to all say the gathering is after the END of the Trib. Just because you do not understand HOW it works, does not mean that is NOT the truth.

    I have posted the truth. NOW, where is the scripture that supports a gathering of God’s people BEFORE the Trib and just because you think it says that, you will also have to provide the actual verse that says there is more than ONE gathering of God’s people.

    Otherwise, you are supporting something that is not verified by scripture and that means God does not teach this. There is no proof of your assertion.

    Just because we will be saved from God’s wrath DOES NOT MEAN we will not be here. According to ALL the Pre Trib things I have ever read (and I have read quite a few) God protects the “Christians” saved DURING the Trib.

    But then, if there is only 1 First resurrection, those people cannot be saved anyway.

    Where does the Bible tell us there are more than 1 Resurrections? I can only find 2, when the Christians are gathered to the Lord at the end of the Trib as Jesus taught and after the end of the Millenium as is stated at the end of Revelation.

    Once again, all of your supporting verses MUST AGREE with Matt 24 and II Thes 2:1-5 as well. So far, not one of you has shown one verse that proves there is another gathering, there is more than 2 resurrections, or that the gathering is NOT at the end of the Trib. NOT ONE VERSE that any have posted deal with these things. Until they do, you are not promoting the truth.

  17. Dirk says:

    BTW, all of your arguments so far are using HUMAN REASONING as the support for your stand. There is NO SCRIPTURE that supports another gathering of God’s people to Himself.

    NOT ONE. NOR is there any verse anywhere in the Bible that supports more than 2 resurrections, or that the Frist resurrection is divided into 2 or more segments or anything else like that.

    Where is the scripture that proves Matt 24 and II thes 2:1-5 is not speaking of the Church?

    There is NONE!

    Do you know of any? I would LOVE to see them. I have read the Bible many times and NEVER have I found 1 verse that says anything like that. So, please, show it to me. If the Rapture occurs BEFORE the Trib, then God would have made sure the Bible said so. SO WHERE DOES HE SAY THIS?

    If you cannot provide those verses, then Jesus’ explanation in Matt 24 stands as the PROOF of WHEN the Gathering will occur.

  18. Dirk.
    The Bible says in REV. 20, that there are two resurrections. The Bride from the day of Pentecost on to today are raptured and resurrected first. Then all the rest are gathered before God AND THE SAINTS that are with Him. Notice in Daniel7:10,”thousands thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    this scene in Daniel perfectly describes Rev.20. Rev. 20 definitely says the “first resurrection,” If you read the entire chapter you will notice the people who make the first resurrection aren’t in the group that are gathered before God in the second resurrection. This matches the end of Matthew 25 when all nations are gathered before the great King. Notice, the ones on the right made it in because they were NICE TO HIS BRETHREN. His brethren would the members of His Bride who made the first resurrection.

    the first part of Matthew 25 (parable of the ten virgins), Show two different believers. One group with the Holy Spirit, (wise) one without. (foolish). Notice the foolish were saved, (virgins, not whores, had the Word, (a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path) but did not have the Holy Spirit, (oil). I know a lot of people think you get the Holy Ghost when you believe,, but most cases in the Bible, they got it after they believed. So you got two different groups of believers, the wise made it into the wedding supper, (rapture), the foolish didn’t and went through the tribulation.

    Now I must caution everybody that in my personal opinion, not many will go in the rapture. I know some people think millions will disappear which will set up the chaos needed to bring in the anti-Christ, but if you look at your shadows and types in the old testament, only a few people escaped wrath when God pronounced judgment. In Noah’s time, only one man, Enoch, raptured. Only eight made it through the waters of the flood. (possible type of the tribulation). Out of the children of Israel that escaped Egypt, only two were allowed to go into the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb). When Jesus came here 2000 years ago, multitudes thronged Him, but when He really started preaching the Word, they left Him, even the seventy left Him and only twelve remained, of which one was a traitor.

    I do believe the church goes through the tribulation, but not the Bride of Christ, which in my opinion will be quite few. I hope my family and I are in it. That is God’s choice. However, we are to have the faith if we want to be there, and Jesus did say the to pray alway that you will be accounted worthy to escape all these things which are to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man. (Matt.24) This portion of Scripture has been quoted in this round of posts before and it does point to a pre-tribulation rapture. To deny it and say someone has not given any Scripture for a rapture is to ignore the truth. People who do believe in the pretribulation rapture truly do believe all the Bible.

    Matthew 24 clearly has Jesus describing a tribulation, then He tells the believer to pray to escape these things… To deny the Scriptures other people have been posting is to pick and choose what you will . Now this is just my opinion. I could be wrong and I would just ask that anybody interested in the subject just get on your knees before God and ask Him to reveal it through the Scriptures, (that is the only way to know if we are talking to God or not). LIke I said, I could be wrong, but I think the Bible clearly teaches a pre-trib rapture. God bless all of you guys.

  19. Dirk says:

    You have not shown in the Bible where there are 2 gatherings to God. You are still preaching something not taught in the Bible.

    The Raoture MUST occur at the same time (according to I Cor just after) the FIRST RESURRECTION. According to Matt 24 and Reve 21 that occurs AFTER THE END of the Tribulation.

    WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THERE IS ANOTHER GATHERING THAT OCCURS BEFORE THE TRIB?

    You have not given any evidence of there being 2 parts of the First Resurrection JUST WHAT YOU WANT THE BIBLE TO SAY. BUT no verse says this.

    We cannot accept what man says. We can only accept what the Bible says. You are STILL USING Human Reasoning.

    You have NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE AT ALL!

    Just supposition. Sorry. You have failed to prove your point, Matt 24 still stands as the ONLY PLACE that truly gives us the timing of the Gathering of the Saints to Jesus; AFTER THEN END OF THE TRIBULATION!

    AND, you have totally ignore II Thes 2:1-5 that says the gathering CANNOT HAPPEN until AFTER the Antichrist is revealed and declares himself to be God in the temple of God.

    Sorry, you are contradicting the Bible.

  20. As per a muslim anti-Christ. I have to respectfully disagree with that. I think if you study out everything the Bible and history say about this subject, you will see that the anti- Christ will be a pope. jesus said that the deception would be so great, that even the very elect would be deceived. The average Christian will not be fooled by a muslim, but more than likely be fooled by the great whore, the catholic church. As rich as the muslim leaders are, (and they are), the catholic church is even richer. The vatican controls the central banks, (including the federal reserve), the council on foreign relations, the tri-lateral commission, the illuminati, and about any other organization and false “ism” out there. The Bible clearly states that whore sits on seven heads, which are seven hills. Only Rome can fit this along with the other qualifications. 68 million protestants slaughtered in the inquisitions alone. The vatican backed the nazis during the second world war, and even made treatys with Germany. The vatican also financed Lenin and helped get him to Russia during the Russian revolution. All of these have verified by former catholic priests who have gotten saved and came out and told the truth. The muslims aren’t responsible for “the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth” Rome does. I highly recommend anybody interested in the subject to go to Chick Tracts on order whatever they have on the catholic church. They also cover islam, mormonism, etc. They were able to get hooked up with Alberto Rivera, a former Jesuit priest who got saved in 1967, and came out and spilled the beans on rome. Also please study the book, An Exposition on the Seven Church Ages, by Brother William Branham.

    the muslims are bad enough, along with the communists. But Rome is the one who is definitely calling all the shots behind the scenes. When I get time I can run this back to Daniel, but I got to get ready for sleep. Good night Everybody and God bless you all.

  21. Dirk says:

    Brian, are you talking to me?

    Where did I say ANYTHING about a muslim antichrist? Nowhere.

    I asked you to provide verses. You have not. You are still contradicting the Bible.

    AND, as far as ifguring out who the Antichrist is prior to his revelation, well,
    the Pharisees just KNEW EXACTLY what the Messiah was going to look like and what he was going to do, right?

  22. No Dirk, you are contradicting the Bible. In John5:28,29 all are called forth to judgment, while in I thess.4:16,17, only the “dead in Christ” are called forth, then we which are alive in Him will meet Him in the air. When Christ comes back in Rev.19, The Saints are with Him, to come back at the battle of Armageddon. This is to save Israel, and to set up the millenial kingdom. At the end of the millenium, the great resurrection takes place in which all people are called forth. If you can’t see that the people who are ministering to Jesus in Daniel, are the same as the last part of Matt.25 , (His brethern), then you are willfully blind.

    You also got II Thess. totally backwards. If you keep reading, you will notice that in vs7, and 8 that The rapture happens when He is taken out of the way.(The Holy Ghost in the gentile bride). Then shall that wicked be revealed. in vs1, it talks about OUR GATHERING, (not everybody) the Bride. Right now we are in MAN’S DAY. the Day of the Lord happens at the rapture because God will be done dealing with the gentiles and will return His full attention back to saving Israel. ( I hope you haven’t wrote Israel out of the equation). Daniel’s seventy Weeks deals with his people, the jews. Not us gentiles.
    so once again, if you can’t see it after I and other people have posted the Scriptures, then you are willfully ignorant and refuse to see the plain Scriptural truth. sorry to sound this way, but you have no problems about telling people that they contradict the Bible.

  23. I did not say Dirk said anything about a muslim anti-Christ. I think it was Gregg. Gregg made some excellent points on the rapture, but I respectfully disagree with the anti-Christ being muslim.

  24. The Scriptures give exact information on the anti-Christ through Daniel all the way to Revelations. The secrets are hid from the wise and prudent of this world, and are revealed to babes as such would learn.

  25. Dirk says:

    Brian,

    Sorry, you have not shown any of the things I asked you to show. Since you cannot find those passages, you are contradicting the Bible.

    Actually, I happen to know NONE of the verses are IN the bible. YOu did not pay any attention to II thes 2:1-5

    Lets look at it.

    2Th 2:1 BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
    2Th 2:2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.
    2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition), [Dan. 7:25; 8:25; I Tim. 4:1.]
    2Th 2:4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God. [Ezek. 28:2; Dan. 11:36, 37.]

    Paul tells us in verse 1 that he is speaking about the Day of the Lord and our gathering to Him. (The language of the Greek is that it is the SAME DAY)

    Verse 2 he tells us that he does not want us to be upset by any rumor or teaching that THE DAY of the Lord and our gathering to Him as already happened.

    Verse 3 he tells us that we are NOT to be DECEIVED IN ANY WAY, but BEFORE we are gathered to the Lord, the Great Falling Away will happen, then the Man of perdition will be revealed and declare himself to be God in the temple of God.

    NOW THAT must happen PRIOR to our being gathered to the Lord.

    Where is the verse that says the Church will be gathered to the Lord prior to when Jesus says in Matt 24? Where is it? Can you post it? I would think it to be very important.

    So please, VERIFY your doctrine USING THE BIBLE and not man’s teachings. Show me the verse that SAYS the Church will be gathered to the Lord prior to the Trib.

    Post it for all to see. If you cannot find it in the Bible, then to say it, is to teach contrary to the Bible.

  26. Greg says:

    Dirk,
    I happen to agree with you. I am not a pre-tribber. Sorry you took it that way.
    Regarding “the tribulation”…can you please define what you mean by the tribulation?

    Is it
    A. The entire 7 years of Daniel’s 70th week?
    B. The time after antichrist is revealed until the time of the rapture.
    C. The time after the church is removed when God’s wrath comes down causing great tribulation.
    D. Other.

    This is crucial to discussing this difficult subject…we need clarity to get understanding between one another’s point of view.

    I understand your point that according to Matthew 24 we will see persecution and tribulation…
    THat would be persecution from antichrist and tribulation from God’s wrath that comes upon the whole world. Please correct me me if I am wrong in assessing your point of view.

    It is my belief from reading Matthew 24 that the Tribulation begins at the midpoint of the 7 years and ends with rapture when it is cut short. Immediately following the tribulation of those days, which is cut short by rapture…the wrath of God comes down upon unbelievers until “the consummation” spoken of in Daniel which is the end of the 7 appointed years….and then the final wrath comes down upon the earth in the bowl judgments.

    So the definition of Great Tribulation is critical to define the argument you are trying to make. Please elaborate as to what you believe scripture means when it speaks of the “great tribulation”

    It seems to me that when Jesus tells us to pray that we might escape that day of judgment of the earth…he is talking about the wrath of God which directly follows the escape of the church. (This happens after the antichrist reveals himself at the midpoint of the 7 years.)

    Jesus is telling us to pay attention to what is happening and not get caught up in the world.

    As for the elect being deceived…it says if it were possible even the elect would be deceived…who do you think the elect are? I think they are all believers in Jesus Christ. Jew and Gentile.

    I also believe that God has a different plan for the remnant of the Jews…when the armies come against Jerusalem…many Jews will be slaughtered…but GOd will save a remnant as he always does…and physically protect the 144,000 thousand even during the period of His (God’s) wrath.

    But not before many Jews and Christians are slaughtered by the antichrist. WHo will cause all to receive the mark…(of allegiance) or be killed…or starve…etc.

    When and how long is the tribulation? That is the most important question…
    You can also email me at gregeddolls@gmail.com as I would love to discuss this with you in more direct fashion…
    God bless you Greg.

  27. Kyle says:

    Please, stop your fighting. I detect far too much aggression here, and we’re supposed to be the family of Christ. Jesus said that the world will know that He loved us by how we love each other. We need to be a united body and not fight over petty issues such as the rapture. Both of you have already made up your minds, and you arguing about it is not going to affect the other’s belief. This is not an issue that will keep someone out of Heaven, and as such does not need to be debated, especially publicly, but in these latter days of all times, we true believers that know that Jesus is the only way as He provided the blood for those who believe in Him to be washed of our sins need to stick together. The apostate church is rising up with their anti-christ messages of “unity of all religions” and Jesus just being a prophet and not the only Way, we need to stick together as those united in the true Church. God will take us when He’s going to take us. When it happens really is not much of an issue, so long as you don’t start doubting God or that the beast is risen if you think it should have happened and it hasn’t. I’m not saying that will happen, but at the same time some believe it will, and I really don’t think it’s worth arguing and being divided over. The true body of Christ needs to unite, despite doctrinal issues. Come on, brothers. Love each other as He loved us. Arguing Scripture is NEVER beneficial, all it does is stir up dissention, as if you believe something strong enough to argue it, arguing and the hostile environment it creates will not persuade either one of you. God bless, brothers.

  28. Dirk says:

    Dear Kyle,

    If you “detect” any agression in anything I have written, it if from yourself.

    I also beg to differ regarding HIS TRUTH. Jesus told us that IT IS THE TRUTH that will set us Free, free from being slaves to sin (see John 8:31-36)

    Paul tells us that those who do not LOVE THE TRUTH, will eventually be deluded BY GOD HIMSELF so that they will have to believe a LIE and end up in perdition. Did you know that Kyle?

    2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
    2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
    2Th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Not a very secure place to be. Are you among those who do not believe the Truth?

    Greg,

    I have found that many people feel many things, especially about the Trib, One of those problems is something you just now posted. You have ignored Matt 24: 29-31
    Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Now, THIS is when Jesus says He will gather His people from everywhere.

    I see you wish to contend about who the elect are>>>> Forgive the length>>

    Rom 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
    Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
    Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
    Tit 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

    So we see clearly that the Bible uses the term ELECT for Believers in Jesus Christ, Christians as well as for the Jews. Let us NOT go there.

    Once more, I ask you SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE where the Church is Gathered to Jesus Christ at some other time than when Matt 24: 29-31 says they will be gathered.

    At the same time, you will also have to show in the Bible another resurrection, for Jesus is speaking of the First Resurrection in Matt 24 as described in Rev 20.

    I do not speculate as to how long the Tribulation will be. FOr that is what it will be, PURE SPECULATION. There is no verse in the Bible that tells us that time. However it does say that the days will be shortened for the sake of the ELECT.

    Remember, the saints, the Church, those who call themselves Christians, (rela ones at least)

    Let me say this clearly.

    The ONLY WAY to ever come up with the “rapture” at some time OTHER THAN when Jesus says so in Matt 24:29-31 is to have a PRECONCEIVED NOTION or DOCTRINE that says that and you are looking for verses to support your position.

    IF we go to the Bible to find out what It says without prejudice, without a pre-conceived idea or doctine, we will ALWAYS come up with The Church being gathered to Jesus after the END of the Tribulation, after the Sun and Moon have darkened, after the stars have fallen from the sky, after the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky and ALL PEOPLE SEE THIS SIGN and then also see Jesus Himself ONLY THEN Will Jesus send His angels AFTER THE LAST TRUMPET CALL, to gather His people from all over the world and the heavens.

    Kyle, I am NOT arguing scripture. I am speaking the TRUTH in love. The WHOLE TRUTH. Not what some people say the truth is and then throw in their opinions.

    I have asked specific questions about specific verses. None of those questions have been answered on this forum. They cannot be answered because the Bible does not contain them. SInce the Bible does not contain those statements, the Church is on the earth during the WHOLE GREAT TRIBULATION and is only gathered to the Lord when Jesus actually returns as the Bible says in Matt 24:29-31.

    For ANYONE to say different, they will have to provide the verses that state the Church is gathered to Jesus at some time PRIOR to after the Trub, that there is another Resurrection or at the very least there are at least 2 parts to the First Resurrection. And of course, THE Gathering of the Church CANNOT BE BEFORE the Antichrist is revealed and declares himself to be God in the temple of God as the BIBLE says in II Thes 2:1-4.

    For anyone to hold any other view is to preach a LIE! Unless you do have the scriptures that say those things.

    NOW, Kyle, I do not know who you are. BUT if you are one of those who own this website, you can either find those verses OR admit you were wrong.

    I am open to either. BUT I AM NOT posting my opinion. I have posted the Bible and what God has stated about what happens to His people. I have not posted any conjecture, inferrance from my personal doctrine, or any of man’s reasonings. That cannot be said about the things the other people who have spoken on this subject above have posted.

    Instead, they have posted their opinions, and ideas. and rarely any scriptures. The verses that have been posted are those that they SAY support their viewpoint, but the Bible does NOT SAY what they want it to say.

    I have been very respectful, I have not condemend anyone. All I have done is post the scriptures and spoken about what they actually say. I have also posted scrriptures that state what happens to those who do not hold to the TRUTH. NONE of these things are my opinions but rather What the bible actually says.

    If any choose not to believe the Bible, that is their affair. If any choose to hold to a false doctrine, that is once more, their affair, BUT I STATE CLEARLY, you have been warned.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  29. Kyle says:

    I never took sides in the matter, you are the one who is choosing to condemn me, and I still will not take sides in the matter. You only have one person to answer to, and that person is not me, but Jesus Christ. If you feel that you are in the right for how you are acting, then I leave you in His hands. That is all I have to say regarding the matter.

  30. Dirk says:

    Kyle,

    WHY are you saying lies? I said NOTHING about you taking sides. I did explain to you why speaking the Truth was essential. I also explained to you that IF, yes, I used that word, IF you held to a Pre Trib doctrine that it was a lie.

    It seems all the things you are accusing me of, is exactly what YOU are doing. Didn’t Jesus have something to say about that kind of hypocrisy?

    It has NOTHING to do with how I FEEL. It has everything to do with obeying God.

    Feelings do not enter the equation. Feelings FOLLOW faith. This is a question.

    Are you suggesting we should follow feelings?

    Please post the scriptures that tell us that. I have just explained how anyone who holds to a LIE may be among those to whom God sends the delusion so that they MUST believe a lie and end up in perdition.

    It is out of LOVE for you and all of those on this website that I post these things. Why are you trying to make it something else?

    As far as answering to Jesus, I do. I say what He tells me to say. I do not put forth my opinion.

    can you say the same?

  31. Greg says:

    I am trying to make this simple for the sake of discussion.

    Regarding the Tribulation and it’s definition.

    Are you saying that “the tribulation” is the entire 7 years? I just need some clarification.

    If so…then what does it mean when Jesus says the tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the elect.

    We agree that the elect are the saints who are believers in Jesus Christ whether Jew or gentile.

    So the question is important. Jesus cuts the tribulation short…so is the tribulation the whole 7 years? or does it begin at the midpoint of the 7 years when antichrist reveals himself and claims to be God?
    Let’s keep our answers short and to the point…
    Current topic…TRIBULATION – DEFINED.
    Greg

  32. Kyle says:

    I can say the same, Dirk, and I can also say that anyone else on here can tell that you have a major attitude problem and are not “gently instructing” as we are commanded in the Bible. My point is not in having a problem with your having viewpoints that are different that you are discussing, but that, unlike Greg and Brian, your responses are filled with anger and hate for those who have dissented with your point of view. There is no point in responding as I’m not checking back here. Whenever I’m taken out, I’m taken out, whether it be rapture, martyrdom, or otherwise, and until then I’m going to focus on doing the will of God… other than that, I don’t care. All I know is that our redemption draws neigh one way or another, and that there’s a lot we need to be prepared for beforehand. As far as when and if on the rapture, it really doesn’t matter to me, all that matters to me is following God and trying to unite our brothers and sisters together in the Church in Him, crucifying our flesh and serving Him together. That is it… this a ridiculous thing to get stirred up over and I think it is really pitiful that you think that you are serving God in hatred. If you think that answering people in anger and hate is the will of God, I think you need to question what god you are really serving. And that is the message God has given me to give you. I’m out of here and I’m not checking back to see what sort of angry response you ensue with.

  33. Tracey says:

    I don’t like seeing anyone sew seeds of strife for that is literally like “channeling hell”….and completely against the word of God. It is one thing to share with conviction what you discern from the Bible, it is another to insult the body of Christ and bring division in the process in the name of trying to “be right”.

    Divisiveness = Immaturity

  34. Dirk says:

    Typical response when you cannot answer the question.

    Kyle,

    I have no anger. You are seeing yourself not me. There is no anger in what I write. They are words. I cannot make you feel anything. You feel what you feel because you choose to feel it.

    What you just said, is pure human reasoning and it has NOTHING to do with the Truth of the Lord.

    And Still you ignore the questions you have been asked.

    Greg,

    The tribulation is the Tribulation. NO ONE knows how long it will be. Jesus said it would be cut short. How short? NO ONE KNOWS.

    We are here until Jesus returns, JUST like Jesus said in Matt 24:29-31.

    I do not know or care when the Tribulation begins. WHY? Because I am here to speak God’s words to whoever will listen. If they so choose NOT to listen, that is their affair.

    Why does it matter how long the Trib will be? Why does it matter when it actually starts? WHy is this important? ONLY to those who want to think they are in control.

    But we are NOT in control. We are where we are and we will be here for as long as He wants us here. Get close to Him so that you are only speaking and doing what HE says to say and do and you will be fine. He will warn you when you need to leave where you are, IF indeed you do need to leave.

    I don’t know what He has for your life. Perhaps He want you to be a martyr or maybe you will be one who remains until He returns. I don’t know and unless God specifically told you, neither do you.

    Tracey, to whom are you speaking? I am asying nothing but what is in the Bible. Kyle is accusing me of all sorts of lies.

    I do not bring division. I bring restoration or riot if you choose not to listen to Him.

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  35. Tracey says:

    Does it matter to whom I speak?

    “But the wisdom from above is pure first of all; it is also peaceful, gentle, and friendly; it is full of compassion and produces a harvest of good deeds; it is free from prejudice and hypocrisy. And goodness is the harvest that is produced from the seeds the peacemakers plant in peace” (James 3: 17-18).

    In permitting the Lord to deal with our sins according to His redemptive love, and by allowing the Holy Spirit to correct our numerous faults with His gentle corrective love, we must also demonstrate our response by a similar forgiving, gentle, wise love in dealing with fellow-believers who may go astray. A harsh censoriousness is not the Scriptural formula in such situations. “My brothers, if someone is caught in any kind of wrong-doing, those of you who are spiritual should set him right: but you must do it in a gentle way. And keep an eye on yourselves, so that you will not be tempted, too” (Galatians 6:1; Good News Bible, Today’s English Version).

    It is precisely this caliber of love imposed upon us by our Lord Jesus that is the very Nature of the Holy Spirit. His corrections, although firm, are longsuffering, gentle and meek, for this is an attribute of His character as defined in the Scriptures. “But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering [Literally: ongoing endurance], kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law” (Galatians 5:22-23; New King James Bible).

    As believers, we should take these admonitions to heart; by doing so we are conformed to the image of our lord Jesus Christ.

    Again I say, divisiveness = immaturity.

  36. Dirk says:

    Tracey,

    I have patiently answered questions. Shown people where they refused to answer questions. I have born with persecution for speaking the truth IN LOVE, as I am with you.

    If I have offended you in anything I have said, I ask you why? A true Christian would not allow anyone or anything to offend them. I have not called anyone names. I have taken the time to respond using the scriptures, and just because you judge me using your own criteria for what the scriptures are saying, does not make it correct.

    Where have I violated the scriptures, Tracey? Copy and post it.

    We cannot be conformed to His image if we beleive a LIE! I have asked all here to show me the reason they believe what they believe USING THE BIBLE, not their opinions. They have continually refused to do this.

    Have you forgotten this verse in I COR 13?

    I Cor 13: 7Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].

    Kindly explain to me in detail how you are believing the best of me OR are you believing the WORST of me?
    Are you sure about what you are saying? based on what?

    Have you ever considered how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees? Or John the Baptist? I have said NOTHING nearly so negative to anyone.

    If I have said anything negative, then it has been with an IF statement. Be careful what you are judging, Tracey, for that indeed is what you are doing.

    Did God tell you this, or did you feel it? And when I ask if God told you this, DID HE ACTUALLY SPEAK TO YOU WITH WORDS?

    Or are you just posting things that you think you know?

    Now those are very legitimate questions. Can you answer them?

    a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

  37. Tracey says:

    Dirk,

    What is so amazing to me is the aggressiveness in which you seem to want to challenge and confront your brethren. It is full of assumptions and accusations of judging others which if you carefully read what I posted, you would see that I did not call anyone or anything out by name….. I merely indicated what the Bible had to say on the issue of divisiveness.

    As a purveyor of the Law (an attorney by trade), I find that most people who react to general statements with deflection and hostility do so out of guilt of committing the said offense in which they themselves launch the most aggressive defense or counterattack. As such, I will leave with your record of “defense” and allow your testimony to speak as to who you are in character. I do not judge it, but I do often attempt to “test” the spirits when confronted by a strong personality that seeks to bring divisiveness and not yield to peace of God or other fruits of the Spirit.

    My spiritual gift is that of discernment. As I review 2 Cor 11:14, I read that “For Satan himself transforms himself into an ANGEL OF LIGHT. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” I do believe that in the last days there will be those who speak in Christ’s name, but their

  38. Tracey says:

    …actions will bear witness to who they really are.

    Blessing my friend

  39. Greg says:

    Dirk,

    So you are saying that the rapture happens at the end of the tribulation right?
    And…we do not know how long the tribulation is…
    That is what I am getting from your responses thus far.

    You have a certain level of understanding that you are failing to communicate to the rest of the people on this thread…and that’s fine…but you could at least entertain some of the questions…and try to answer them.

    We have to deal with the 7 years of Daniel’s 70th week somehow. Othewise God would not have said that this amount of time would be designated as 7 years.

    The Pre-Tribber generally equates the entire 7 years with tribulation….(even though the difficulties are coming from antichrist part of the time and from God’s wrath thereafter upon unbelievers)
    I feel this is an over generalization of the 7 years…

    Post tribbers…generally say we will survive through the entire time of 7 years until Christ comes back. And it is necessarily 7 years at least…because that is the time frame God has given through Daniel’s 70 weeks.

    I am what you would call a pre-wrather. As we are not appointed to the wrath of God, we will be removed from such before it comes down. And it is this removal via rapture that we ought to be praying we will be accounted worthy. Worthy to escape the wrath of God because we are true believers.

    As a pre-wrather…I believe we will be here for the persecution by antichrist which is clearly indicated everywhere in scripture…wherein we will be forced to take the mark of the beast or die. Where the antichrist will overcome the saints of the Most High who love not their lives unto death. During that time of persecution before the 7 years is up…we will be seeing the signs of the coming of the son of man, the moon turns red, and the sun does not give it’s light, and the stars fall from the sky…it is that time when Jesus says then you will see the signs of the coming of the son of man…then when you see these things begin to come to pass…look up because your redemption draweth nigh.

    So…you do not really care how long the tribulation is…but it is precisely my intention to make you think about it…
    Does tribulation include antichrist’s wrath and God’s wrath? Or is it only antichrist’s wrath and then we are removed before God’s wrath comes upon unbelievers.

    Because God’s wrath is for unbelievers wouldn’t you agree?

    It appears to me that scripture supports an early termination of Antichrist’s power over the elect…and God’s wrath begins with the trumpets…until the consummation (end of the 7 years) and then God’s final wrath is poured out upon the earth…in the bowl judgments.

    If the sign of the coming of the Son of Man appears immediately after the tribulation of those days…and we are to look up because our redemption draweth nigh….is this not the time when rapture will occur? And if the tribulation is cut short….meaning not the entire 2nd 3 1/2 years….then there is still time between the rapture and the consummation of the 7 years which God has decreed…when that that is determined will be poured upon the desolate. (Bowls of wrath – poured out)

    I believe after all the bowls are poured out and antichrist tries to round up all the armies to come against the Lord, that at that time Jesus Christ bodily comes down as the conqueror…on the white horse…with all his saints in tow…(those saints who were redeemed from the great tribuklation…and perhaps all saints)

    I am honestly trying to pursue a dialog with you Dirk…have you thought about these things? And how does it fit into your understanding of the 2nd coming of Christ?

    I am not claiming to know it all…but I am certainly interested in the discussion and interpretation as you see it…
    Iron sharpening iron.

    Cheers…In Christ.

    Greg

  40. Dirk says:

    Dear Greg,

    Where is the verse that says there is another gathering to the Lord?

    For the Gathering Jesus refers to in Matt 24:29-31 is after everything else. It is AFTER the sun and moon are darkened and after the stars fall from the sky and all the rest.

    Now, I have asked you and everyone else to provide this verse(s) that must be in the Bible if what you say is true. However, not one has done so. I asked this long before you asked any question of me and still you refuse to answer it.

    Please explain why I should take the time beyond what I have already stated to explain further when you continue to ignore the questions I have asked?

    And, just so you know, I do not know exactly when anything starts, ends or how long it is. WHY? Because God told me I don’t need to know now. IF at a later date I do need to know all the things you seem concerned about, then He will tell me.

    You see, it far more important to learn how to live in the Holy of Holies NOW than it is for us to know all the ins and outs of the Tribulation. Besides, if we look at biblical history, we see that in all cases no one knew the ins and outs of any prophecy prior to its fulfillment.

    Only 2 exceptions that I am aware. First is Jesus. He is a special case.

    Daniel, knew when the 70 yrs of captivity were over, and even then, he did not understand it until those 70 yrs were actually completed.

    There are so very many ideas, conjectures, teachings etc about all of this time. We do not need another opinion. We need God’s word on it. NOT what you or I think. That is what man has been doing for the biggest share of the last 2000yrs.

    So, I will not speculate. When God decides to instruct on those things, then He will do so.

    Tracey, what is so amazing is how you are just like the lawyers in the Bible during the life of Jesus. You know, those who opposed Him?

    have you never read the Bible, Tracey? Have you not read Paul’s writings? I already pointed you to Jesus and John the Baptist.

    Jesus even told us that WHOEVER followed Him would be just like Himself and be treated in the same way, ESPECIALLY by the Religious people, you know, those same lawyers and Pharisees that opposed Him and the apostles.

    I have great sorrow for you, Tracey. Perhaps you need to start laying down your self life and denying yourself, taking up your cross to put the self life to death and TRULY follow Jesus. Then you might begin to understand. Until that time, you are using natural human reasoning NOT being led by the Holy Spirit.

  41. Dirk says:

    Greg,

    Please understand, I am not offended nor upset. but this venue is not conducive to our discussion.

    I do not operate by fear so I have no trouble posting my email

    bndslavenchrist@aol.com

    God bless, brother. You do seem to be the only one who has a heart for the Lord here. All others are attempting to accuse, and find fault and find some excuse for not believing His truth.

  42. Greg says:

    Dirk,

    I get you. I understand why you view this in the way you do…from Matthew 24

    29“Immediately after the distress of those days

    “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’c
    30“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    For the sake of the others in this discussion I am posting here..but would like to discuss with you some other things more personally and at length. Thanks for your email….also I have not had enough time to really dig in in this discussion…though I sincerely want to….now I can.

    The understanding of this moment when Christ comes back for his church and when he comes in judgment is confusing…the reason why I believe this is so is from other scripture taken into account with this Matthew 24.

    The primary argument comes from 1 Thess 5:9
    “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    But also from Rev 3:10 “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

    I understand this to mean that we will as believers will not endure the hour of trial….
    And what other time could this be speaking of but God’s Wrath?

    Pretribbers take this to mean the entire 7 years…discounting scripture like Revelation 14: 9-12

    9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

    If you take the mark…you are marked for the wrath of God…but if you do not…then this scripture taken with the others above seems to indicate that we will not have to endure the wrath of God or the day of trial that comes upon the whole earth.

    This is also why I believe that the rapture is what cuts the “great tribulation” short. The ‘great tribulation’ begins when the antichrist declares himself to be God at the midpoint of the tribulation. Jesus says in Matthew 24:15-22
    15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’b spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”

    Why are the days shortened? Is Jesus talking about the persecution of antichrist? or the wrath of God? or both?

    We know that the 7 years is not cut short…and we know also that the holy city is given unto the gentiles to trample 42 months. or 1260 days.
    Revelation 11:1-3
    1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

    We also see the same period of time given for the beast to exercise his authority and make war against the saints.
    Revelation 13:5-10
    5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.b

    9He who has an ear, let him hear.

    10If anyone is to go into captivity,
    into captivity he will go.
    If anyone is to be killedc with the sword,
    with the sword he will be killed.
    This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

    So my point is God does not cut the 7 years short…nor the 42 months short…but he does cut the “great tribulation” short…

    It is my supposition from scripture that the saints get removed just before the wrath comes down…
    So saints are removed…at the coming of Christ after the time when Jerusalem is compassed with armies Luke 21. And the abomination of desolation occurs Matthew 24. The persecution begins but is cut short by rapture…
    As soon as the the Lord appears in the clouds…(which is where we get caught up to…) the people on earth see him coming with the clouds and mourn…for the great day of his wrath has come (beginning with the trumpets) and who can endure it.

    I will email this to you as well. and we can continue.

    In Christ,

    Greg

  43. Derek says:

    I personally believe that the church will be called out in the rapture before the persecution, anti-christ. But we forget the main concept of “watch”. For too long Gods people have argued over pre, mid, or post trib. The main thing is you may not live to see it anyways. If you are not spiritually ready to meet your maker I don’t care when he comes you aren’t prepared. I may be called home tonight or tomorrow or next week….etc bit one thing is certain if we aren’t conditioned it doesn’t matter.

  44. Greg says:

    Derek,

    I agree that we must be prepared…but that is not an excuse to fail seeking out the meaning and timing of the scriptures and the most important event in world history…the coming of Christ.

    True Christians can debate this and agree to disagree…but it does not mean we should not talk about it.

  45. Dirk says:

    Derek,

    A lot of people believe a lot of things, THAT does not make it true.

    Jesus told us in Matt 24:29-31 that HE would have His angels gather His people to Himself AFTER THE END of the Greatest (WORST) Tribulation ever to be upon the Earth.

    SO, what do you base your idea on? Where does the Bible tell you about ANOTHER GATHERING TO JESUS of His people? I have yet to see it and I have read the WHOLE BIBLE many times.

    Are you basing your belief on how you feel or on what the Scriptures say?

    Greg, True Christians CANNOT debate this. WHY? Because we are told that the HOLY SPIRIT will ONLY lead us into ALL TRUTH, not fables or lies. God has NOTHING to do with any lie.

    Offering opinions as to what we think is useless. We MUST KNOW what God actually says. Only when we know what HE says will HE give us the strength to stand when all around us is crumbling.

    If we attempt to stand on what we think, based on how we feel, we WILL fall when we are persecuted.

    Agreeing to disagree is NOT a TRUE CHRISTIAN ATTRIBUTE. It is a human psychology idea. There is no such thing as agreeing to disagree in the Bible; not among those who are led by the Holy Spirit.

    We cannot base our beliefs on how we FEEL or what we THINK. True Belief is ONLY based on what God actually SAYS! Anything else is spurious and a lie!

  46. Nicole says:

    Wow…..coming from a someone who has no agenda, nor much tolerance for hate, I can tell you that from the “outside looking in” that you guys are full of a bunch of gospel…but not really applying much of it. What started out as a few popular beliefs about a “hoaxed” or “authentic” video has turned into a group of adults trying to outdo each other with their knowledge of or translations of the Bible. One thing that I am for sure of is that, in no way, shape, or form is any of this bickering “Godly.” Admitting that we don’t know IS faith!! I will pray for you all.

  47. Dirk says:

    Dear Nicole,

    I have no agenda. I just speak what God says. PERIOD.

    I have asked the people on this thread to provide scriptual backing for what they claim is the TRUTH.

    Not one of them has done so. I am not bickering. I have asked a couple of very simple questions based on the Bible.

    There has been a lot of bravado, many claims have been made, and opinions seem to have the same authority as the scriptures in the minds of those above.

    Admitting we don’t know is not faith, it is ignorance.

    TRUSTING GOD is faith. Trusting that what He has told us through the scriptures is true, is faith. believing Him at His word is faith.

    I am not trying to outdo anyone. I just want to know where these people get their ideas from, for it is certainly NOT in the Bible I have; in fact it is not in any translation I have ever seen.

    We are told to provide evidence of our faith when asked. So I have asked.

    The bible does say some specific things and for a pre trib or mid trib rapture to be scriptural, there must be several things.

    1. there must be another passage in the Bible that speaks of another gathering of the people of God to Jesus besides Matt 24 : 29-31 that states it occurs before the END of the tribulation.

    2. There must be a passage that states either II Thes 2:1-4 is not true or does not apply to all Christians or there cannot be a pre trib rapture at all!

    3. There must be a passage that states there are more than 2 resurrections or that the first resurrection is dividied into at least 2 parts, because we are told in Matt 24:29-31 of the first resurrection and it is in agreement with the passage in Rev 20 about the first resurrection.

    4. I Thes 4 is NOT a proof of a pre trib rapture. It does state there will be a gathering, but due to what it talks about, it is in absolute agreement with Matt 24:29-31 which says the gathering occurs after the END of the trib.

    Now, there are more, but no one above has shown any evidence of these passages I have just mentioned.

    NO ONE.

    They cannot because they do not exist in the Bible.

    Many people may believe many things. I ran into someone last week that did not believe 2/3 of the New testament because he believed Paul disagree with his doctrines and rejected Paul (????? and not his doctrine, go figure)

    I just met another person online who does not believe the New testament is scripture.

    Just because these people believe these things, does not make those beliefs true! There MUST BE a scriptural basis for believing what we believe.

    The above 4 points must be in the Bible for a pre or mid trib rapture to be true because there are passages that state there is a gathering of God’s people to Jesus after the END of the Trib and it is a description of the Frist Resurrection.

    Therefore, there MUST be scriptural evidence for these doctrines if they are indeed TRUE.

    If there is no scriptural evidence that meets the above criteria, then the whole idea of a pre or mid trib rapture is FALSE. It is a LIE from satan.

    Now people will attempt to say many things, but if a pre trib or mid trib raptur is real, then the BIBLE will say so and the above passages will be in the Bible somewhere.

    Just because a person can explain or put together a bunch of verses and say the Bible teaches something, DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!

    A true doctrein must agree with the FULL COUNSEL of God and that includes Matt 24:29-31; II Thes 2:1-4. I Cor 15 that speaks of the dead being resurrected prior to the living, etc.
    A true doctrine MUST AGREE WITH ALL OF THESE PASSAGES. Unfortunately, no one can seem to find a verse, even ONE, that says there is a gathering of God’s people before the end of the trib.

    So, it cannot be true. That means, an awful lot of people are believing and Preaching A LIE!

    If that is not important, I do not know what is. I care deeply for everyone and want to see them walking with the Lord in HIS TRUTH, not some man-made lie. So I have asked questions which no one wants to answer.

    Does that bother you,, Nicole? Is that what you are concerned with? Or are you just concerned as I am about these who believe this lie?

    Please let me know. And if you do believe the Lie, I ask you as well to answer the 4 questions above, IF you can.

  48. Tiffany says:

    I’ve just read through some of this and I am sorry Dirk, but I agree with everyone else. You speak as if your interpretation of scripture is the ONLY interpretation. That your “opinion” is to be taken by all of us as fact. You speak as though you believe you are GOD.

    Indeed, you are not loving, gentle, or caring in your posts. You are condescending as to others’ views, you are disrespectful, sarcastic, even downright MEAN and NASTY. You think that this is the way that God wants you to be? Honestly, I feel sorry for you. Your “truth” is just that, your truth. It is not “his” truth or “the” truth. And quite honestly, IT DOESN’T MATTER. I don’t have my Bible down here right now but I do know this: if you believe with your heart that Jesus is Lord, the son of God, confess this with your mouth, and ask his forgiveness and his guidance, than you are saved and you will go to heaven. Pre-trib, post-trib, when you die, whatever, WHO CARES???? And I do not believe that God is trying to deceive his followers. Jesus WANTS us to love him, he WANTS us to spend eternity in heaven with him. He does not want to deceive us. Salvation is quite simple: Believe, Repent, Ask forgiveness. That is all that any of us need to know.

    We are all entitled to our own opinions beyond that. And it is great to discuss differing opinions in an environment that is respectful, friendly, and loving. You make the environment hostile. You are disrespectful and degrading to others. You are not God. So don’t speak as if you are. You are a man. And not one man (with the exception of Jesus Christ) knows it all. Not one man (same exception) is without sin. GET OVER YOURSELF! Sorry, but it HAS to be said.

    I will pray for you. Honestly Dirk, you need it.

    Tiffany

  49. Tiffany says:

    Actually, the Bible says that not even Jesus knows the time. Do you, Dirk, know more than Jesus?

  50. Dirk says:

    Tiffany,

    I am not mean, condenscending or any other of the things you say about me.

    I have asked questions which NO ONE has answered. You cannot answer them either.

    So, instead of making an attempt to get honest you attack me and show who you follow and it is NOT GOD.

    I did not make any claim. I said what Jesus said, If you cannot answer that, that is your own lack of understanding. I have been very patient and continually returning everyone BACK to the questions I have asked that NO ONE HAS YET TO ANSWER.

    Do I know the DAY of Christ’s return? NO. I never said I did and by your accusation, you are implying I have done so.

    BUT JESUS DID SAY that we should know the timing. And Jesus Himself told us the approximate time of when HE would return and gather His people to Himself.

    He said that it would happen AFTER the end of the TRIBULATION. It is in Matt 24:29-31, remember?

    ALL I have said is the VERY SAME Jesus said. WHY are you saying the same thing? Why are you saying that Jesus has lied, for if you believe in a pre trib rapture, then you ARE saying something Jesus never did.

    Oh, and about Salvation, there is FAR MORE to salvation than just confessing Jesus as Lord.

    Jesus said>>>>
    Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
    Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands]. [Ps. 6:8.]

    That contraditcs what you just wrote, Tiffany. Are you saying that Jesus is wrong?

    Jesus seemed to think that it was NECESSARY for whoever was going to Enter the Kingdo to be OBEDIENT and actually DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

    In fact, Jesus explained that there would be MANY who thought they were saved and did many works FOR HIM, but Jesus will tell them to depart because they lived for themselves and did NOT do the WILL of the Father!

    So, once more, you have said Jesus is wrong and you are right. Personally, I think Jesus is far more reliable than you are.

  51. Tiffany says:

    I won’t argue with you. Pointless. I call it like I see it. And you sir, are an arrogant know it all. It doesn’t matter if you say I don’t know God. Doesn’t matter what you think.

    What matters is what my father Jesus thinks. I spoke my 2 cents on what I thought about you because I got sick of reading down the posts and hearing you degrade people and their opinions. I knew when posting you would do it to me also.

    When I see the New Dirklation Bible out on the bookshelves, believe me, I won’t be buying it. I’ll stick to reading my King James and NIV Bible, and pray to Jesus for discernment of the scripture. Certainly not you.

    As another person said awhile back in these posts, I won’t be wasting anymore time or words on you.

    You will find one you won’t be arguing with soon enough. One who will call you as he sees you, and your words will mean nothing. Good luck to you.

  52. Dirk says:

    Tiffany,

    YOu cannot answer the questions I have asked either. SO, in order to continue in your beliefs which have no basis in reality, you look for a way to dsicredit what I am saying in your sight and then you can justify NOT hearing what GOD is saying.

    I am not arguing, I have just asked questions which NO ONE is able to answer. If they are correct, then plesae post the scriptures. I will be glad to rescind everything I have said.

    BUT if you cannot post those scriptures, will you do the same thing?

    I know you will not!

  53. Tiffany says:

    No one can answer the questions Dirk. Because no one knows for sure. As to the time pre or post, as to anything. Even you have to admit, you don’t know. For if you knew the answers, why would you be here asking questions. My point is PLEASE be respectful. Be nice. I will be the first to admit I am not perfect. Nor do I know everything. Can you admit that Dirk? Because you don’t know everything.

    I am sorry. I reread what I wrote, and Jesus is telling me, Tiffany, by what you wrote you are behaving the same way he is. I apologize to you for that. Maybe this link will help you in your search for answers.

    http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?70788-The-Rapture-of-the-Church

  54. Tiffany says:

    Also this:

    Rev 3:10
    Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

  55. Tiffany says:

    I’m not going to post anymore. Especially if you continue on being mean. But there is my effort at trying to help you. I hope you find the answers you are searching for.

    For me, those answers don’t come from knowing pre or post tribulation rapture. For me, I just know that Jesus loves me, and I love him. And it is not by works we are saved, but by faith. Truly, that is what salvation is.

    The verses you referenced above: I think there are those who speak Jesus name or do things in his name. But in their heart they do not believe. That person won’t go to heaven. But it is really not difficult. God never wanted it to be difficult. We are all sinners because of Adam and Eve. But he still loves us. And he wants us to love him. And to love each other. Which, by the way, are the two most important commandments. Try to stop worrying so over things that in the long run, don’t matter.

  56. Tiffany says:

    Hmmmm. Could it be that Dirk is now silent?

    Rev 3:10 says it all, huh? :)

  57. Dirk says:

    Tiffany,

    You have been told and you refuse the truth.

    In fact, you are supressing the truth even from your own mind. Therefore, according to the scriptures, you are subject to God’s wrath.

  58. Dirk says:

    yes TIFFANY,

    Rev 3:19 is true, But so is Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 29, and I Cor 15, and II Thes 2:1-4 etc.

    AND all of those tell us that God will protect us ON THE EARTH when HE sends His Wrath. He will NOT gather us to Himself UNTIL AFTER THE END of the Trib when Jesus actually returns to bring His Kingdom.

    Rev 3:10 DOES NOT SAY God will rapture us before the TRIB. Just says He will protect us.

    You pre tribbers sure do twist scripture to suit your purposes.

    STILL, no one can find those verses that MUST be in the Bible for there to be a PRE TRIB or MID TRIB Rapture.

    Because those raptures are not true and the Bible does NOT teach that there will be more than ONE GATHERING which occurs just when Jesus said it would, AFTER THE END OF THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS!

  59. tesco wesco says:

    a blurr on the camera lense? Really? look carefully at the entire clip and then look for more blurrs. I think it’s probably the real deal.

  60. susanna says:

    some men trying to extract a discussion and few women posting negative comments instead of listening..In fact woe to those that do not listen when wise speak..thank you
    Greg,Dirk,Derek and brian

  61. aVoice says:

    I agree with Dirk. He wrote the truth. The truth IS DIVISIVE. It is sharper than a two edged sword and can separate the soul from spirit.

    This is buckup time, girls and boys. Either get on the train that says “TRUTH” and accept it with all it’s consequences (Like you are wrong and need to change and conform to the scripture) or get off all together and do something else.

    Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    Is the Messiah being divisive here? Is He immature?

  62. shila says:

    its true I BELIEVE GOD is in power and the revelation is true egypt has had alot since the era of king pharaoh,the egyptians slaved the isralites bittely and God was totally not happy with them.the pale horse is true because death today in the world is at high percentage.we really need God’s guidance in every revelation for us to understand well.but i believe in the capture and i know God had a reason why he allowed it to be seen so that we can worship him because he reigns forever and ever AMEN.

  63. Anand says:

    On the left side of the screen some light Dots were moving along in the direction of the pale green horse, i feel those dots reflects that they are following close behind the Pale green horse. In revelation 6:8 also says like this “Hades was following close behind him(horse rider).” Let it be those dots were hades, above these things What is our part for our Jesus Christ?. He is coming soon(Rev 22:20). Let ourselves abide to his living words..Amen

  64. LogSci says:

    Wow anyone who thinks this is real should really re think their life choices lol bc w/e there doing now isn’t working out

  65. Green Coffee says:

    whoah this weblog is excellent i love reading your posts. Stay up the great work! You recognize, lots of people are hunting around for this info, you can aid them greatly.

  66. I’ll right away snatch your rss feed as I can’t find your email subscription link or e-newsletter service. Do you’ve any? Kindly permit me understand in order that I could subscribe. Thanks.

  67. jack says:

    that is so much life changing.All should be able to see this and understand it.

  68. Terrific paintings! That is the kind of information that are supposed to be shared around the web. Shame on the seek engines for no longer positioning this submit upper! Come on over and discuss with my site . Thanks =)

Mudflower website and graphic design Jacksonville, FL